October 28, 2024 • 45 mins
Content note: brief discussion of mental illness and suicide
After six months of planning, Elle is thrilled to welcome this episode’s guest to the podcast! Teisha Gillespie is a marketing director and podcast host. Teisha's podcast, "Not Your Average GOAT," highlights diverse stories of adversity and diversity, aiming to dismantle stigma. She emphasizes the power of relatable, authentic stories in changing perceptions and reducing shame around mental health and disability. Elle and Teisha take a little time to discuss how inaccessibility created barriers to this interview, and Teisha addresses the challenges of paternalism and advocates for showing rather than telling to demonstrate the capabilities of blind — and other disabled — individuals.
Links to Teisha’s podcast, as well as all other resource links, are in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elle Billing (00:00):
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
radical care in a late capitalist heckscape.
(01:02):
My guest today is TeishaGillespie. Teisha is a native
Marylander who now resides inVirginia. Being the eldest of
seven girls amongst a turbulentupbringing, Teisha has always
been an innate protector andjustice advocate. From nine to
five,Teisha is a marketingdirector for an early education
nonprofit that believes everychild deserves equitable access
(01:22):
to high quality learningexperiences that will put them
on a successful path in schooland life. From five to nine,
Teisha volunteers as thecommunications chair for the
National Federation of the Blindof Virginia and moonlights as
the host of Not Your AverageGOAT Podcast, a show that
celebrates all the shapes, sizesand colors of diversity as well
as adversity. As a blind,vision-disabled individual who
(01:43):
also happens to be a Blackfemale managing anxiety, Teisha
is passionate about making animpact and dismantling the
stigma and prejudice thatencases marginalized
communities. I'm excited to haveTeisha on the podcast today.
Welcome to Hoorf. Let's just,like, dive into it, and Ricki
can decide where to cut us offat the beginning and then at the
(02:06):
end. Because, like, we're reallychatty, because we've talked a
few times now, because thisinterview has been in the making
for by the time this airs, it'llbe like, six months, something
like that. Yeah, scheduling andrescheduling and sending
questions back and forth andtrying to figure out when we can
make this happen, which is oneof the things that I have on our
(02:29):
list of topics, was how long ittook us to get here. But I'm
going to start with my firstquestion, which I always start
with, which is, how have youreceived care this week?
Teisha Gillespie (02:39):
You know, and I was, I was reading the
questions just a minute ago, andI was like, This couldn't have
been timed better, because Ialmost feel like I'm cheating by
having this podcast episodescheduled where it is. Because
for the first time in over ayear, I have had 10, almost 10
(03:02):
straight days off from work, andit's been so overdue. I hit
burnout pretty quickly thisyear. I had so many different
back to back events thathappened. I had someone leave
our organization, and so my teamessentially increased by 50%
(03:24):
temporarily for about fourmonths. And three weeks after
that happened, I had one of mydirect reports go on maternity
leave three weeks earlier thanexpected in the middle of a huge
project. Okay, and so Iimmediately had to not just take
over that project and kind offigure out and really get into
(03:45):
the weeds where I had not reallybeen in the weeds before, but
then also start working closelywith her direct report, who had
only been with the company for amonth. And I was like, I felt so
bad that this, this poor girl,you know, her boss goes on
maternity leave three weeksearlier, and it's this huge
project. And I bet she felt sooverwhelmed too. But then I've
(04:07):
had just so many things over thelast four or five months happen.
Most of it related to work, andso I hit burnout really, really
hard, and I just was not,unfortunately, in the position
to be able to take time off. Icould take one or two days, but
it's like when your phone'sabout to die, but you have to go
somewhere, so you just plug itup for five minutes. That's
(04:28):
basically what those one or twodays did for me. It really just
it gave me enough charge so thatI can make it through the next
week. But then once I got to theweek after, I was back at rock
bottom, and I've been there forso long. And so two weeks ago, I
decided our year, our fiscalyear, work is ending. And I was
(04:48):
just like, You know what? Thisis probably going to be the
calmest time of the year. I'mjust going to submit the time
and take off and just add on tomy labor day weekend and do it
because I just need to unplug.
And it's been a staycation. Ihaven't even gone anywhere. I
can't necessarily say that it'sbeen relaxing, but that's been
totally fine for me, becauseI've been focusing on some of my
volunteer work, some of thethings for the podcast. So it's
(05:09):
been just all me, and I'veintentionally, like, I keep
telling myself, anytime a littlethought about work creeps into
my mind, I'm just immediatelyzap it out. Like, nope. Teisha,
nope. Start thinking about thisother thing. And I even told my
partner too. I was like, if Istart talking about work, just
tell me to stop it, because Ineed to keep it out of my mind
for the full 10 days so that Ican actually go back and feel
(05:30):
refreshed. So that's what I'vedone this week for myself.
Elle Billing (05:36):
I'm so glad that you were able to do that. I know
how that that's that was such agood analogy, too, about how
when you only have 5% batteryand you just stick it on the
charger long enough to go to thenext thing I'm gonna borrow that
Teisha Gillespie (05:49):
definitely
Elle Billing (05:50):
that's such, that is such a good analogy, because
there's that feeling of dreadand anxiety that goes along with
it, with the phone itself, butalso with the like, Knowing you
don't have enough energy andenough to get through whatever
you need to do, it's like, itjust got to get to Friday. I
just got to get to Friday. Ijust got to get to Friday.
There's like, a whole sense ofdread that goes along with that,
(06:10):
that that makes it hard to dowhat you need to do, even during
that time, at least for me, whenI'm in that head space of like,
being so close to burnout?
Teisha Gillespie (06:20):
Yeah, yeah.
And speaking of that dread too,there's been just so many other
things, like I said, it hasmostly been a work, and there's
been other anxiety driven andstress striving events that have
happened that just have added onto that as well. So, you know,
having that 5% or 10% charge hasbeen so crucial just thinking
about Friday, because mentally,my mental health, my anxiety, my
(06:44):
depression, like I, you know,there's been so many times where
I've just, you know, grabbed somy partner has ADHD, so he's
constantly checking his bloodpressure because he's on
Adderall and so, like, I've usedhis blood pressure monitor so
many times because I've beenafraid that mine has risen.
Thankfully, I haven't really runinto any risky events, but
(07:05):
that's just how intense it'sbeen lately. And so I'm very
glad that I finally just pulledthe trigger and said, Teisha,
you're going to do this. Andthankfully, my PTO got approved,
so I was very happy.
Elle Billing (07:22):
Yeah, that's good.
So you mentioned your podcast,and so I'd like to talk about
that a little bit. Your podcastis called, Not Your Average
GOAT, GOAT being Greatest of AllTime. You borrowed the sports
acronym. So can you what can youtell us about why you started
the podcast, not your averagegoat, and the kinds of stories
(07:44):
that you feature in eachepisode?
So my background, at thebeginning of my career, I was
working for a publishing agency,interviewing small business
owners and really being able tokind of zoom in on their own
personal story to how they gotto starting their business, you
know, why they're so passionateabout it. And even talk a lot
(08:05):
about, you know, with a smallbusiness, a lot of them were
family owned businesses, so eventalking about the intersection
with that as well. And I got tobring these people stories to
life through magazine articles.
And I really, really love that.
And I actually imagined myselfone day going into like a
journalistic type of role, andmy career just decided it was
(08:27):
going to go in a completelydifferent direction. But I never
lost that storytellingcomponent. But I say that
because I initially started mypodcast recognizing that I've
been really lucky over theyears, you know, especially, I
would say, living in what wecall the DMV area, which is the
DC, Maryland, Virginia region.
There's a lot of nomads here, alot of people from not just all
(08:53):
over the country, but also allover the world, who kind of come
to this area because there's somany government opportunities,
so many nonprofits located here,and so I've been so lucky to
acquaint and befriend so manyincredible people with so many
different identities,backgrounds, lived experiences.
And I started thinking that, youknow, I hear all these other
(09:16):
podcasts interviewing theseincredible people, but they're
actors and they're comedians,and there's politicians and all
these people who you knoweveryone knows, but I was like,
there's so many incrediblepeople with amazing stories who
are just quote, unquote averageand people don't know about
them, and I think I'd like tocreate a platform to showcase
(09:37):
their stories. And so that'sinitially how my podcast got
started. But with that said,over the last two, two and a
half years, I've really beenable to kind of zoom in on my
actual mission and vision, and Irealized through the showcasing
these stories. So my tagline hasalways been to celebrate all the
shapes, sizes and colors ofdiversity, as well as adversity,
(09:58):
and I personally have manydifferent diversity identifiers.
I'm a female, you know, I'm aperson of color, I have two
disabilities, I have anxietydisorder. I'm also blind, and so
because of a lot of thesethings, and because of my
environment growing up, I've hadto face and navigate and been
(10:19):
able to overcome some of theseadversities, and I learned that
a lot of these things can bevery tough to talk about,
because there is already a lotof stigma sometimes related to
your diversity identities, butthen adversity that sometimes
results directly from some ofyour identities has a lot of
stigma as well. It's reallydifficult to have conversations
(10:41):
around addiction or disabilityor suicide. You know the
intersection between race andincarceration, and you know what
it's like, for instance, youknow coming out, and maybe just,
you know not coming out, butmaybe you're coming out as
polyamorous, and no oneunderstands what that means, and
there's just a lot ofquestioning around it. And so,
(11:04):
you know, through having theseconversations early on, I
started to realize there werethemes when they were talking
about their story. There wasalmost this kind of like
therapeutic release that somepeople were having, and having
someone share that with me. Ifelt, you know, I personally
felt really great that I've beenable to kind of create a space
(11:25):
for some of these folks thatI've interviewed. But then on
the other side of it, people whowere listening would reach out
and say, you know, I justlistened to so and so's story.
And, you know, I never thoughtthat there was anyone else who
experienced the bullying that Idid when I was a kid, or I just
listened to so and so's story,and it really gave me a
(11:45):
different perspective on my wifeand my child, who are dealing
with different, you know, neuro-neuro-spiciness levels or
disabilities, or, you know, I'vealso lost someone to suicide,
and I also experienced exactlywhat this other person went
through. And so the power ofrelatability that you can find
(12:06):
through authentic storytellingis something else that I've
realized. And so I've reallyzoomed my mission in on creating
a platform for these relatableor these authentic stories that
are hopefully relatable,informative, help to kind of use
education, but in a kind way, topotentially help change minds
(12:30):
about certain deeply heldbeliefs around different lived
experiences or identities, andto hopefully have an impact on
dismantling stigma throughhaving these uncomfortable
conversations. And so that'sreally where I am right now. And
so I talk to people like I said,of all different walks, all
(12:52):
different backgrounds, alldifferent types of adversities.
And I really try to emphasizethat there really are so many
different shapes, sizes andcolors of adversity, because,
yes, they're going to beanalogous and adjacent
experiences, and people aregoing to hopefully feel seen and
understood by hearing otherpeople's experiences, but also
two people can go through thesame experience and come out of
(13:16):
it very, very differently. Andso I really tried to emphasize
that there's really, there's nocomparison. Just because I've
talked to one person who'sovercome or navigated addiction,
or because I've talked to oneperson who's, you know, lived
with a disability, it doesn'tmean that everyone else's
experience is going to be thesame. And so there are some
(13:36):
times where I actually, youknow, I have multiple people on
to talk about addiction,multiple people on to talk about
disability, postpartumdepression, because everyone's
individual story is soimportant, because it every each
story brings to light somethingnew and is able to touch someone
else in a different way than theother previous stories that came
(14:00):
before ItThat bit at the end, about
people who experience like thesame thing experience it
differently, came up last seasonin a conversation about autism,
where, if you've met oneautistic person, you've met one
autistic person, like knowing anautistic person gives you their
experience. Like, you know, theautism spectrum is so broad and
(14:21):
the experiences are so nuancedand diverse that, like I
interviewed my sister about ourexperiences growing up
neurodivergent, but undiagnosed.
And that experience of havinglisteners reach out and say, oh
my gosh, thank you for thatepisode I never knew. You know,
we had that experience with mythe episode with my sister. But
(14:45):
again, my sister's experience isonly one person, and I have a
lot of friends on the autismspectrum who are very, very
different, and their experienceis quite different from what my
sister's is. And so, like, Ireally appreciate that about the
way that you have done yourpodcast is that you have
multiple people with stories ofaddiction, because everyone's
(15:07):
story is important and isindividual. You know, it may
reach somebody a different waythan the previous one.
Unknown (15:13):
Yeah. And I think another thing you know, as you
were talking, and I think Iliterally just realized this, is
that I another really greatvalue to having multiple
different stories is thathopefully it shows to the world
that these types of experiencesdo not discriminate, like there
is no prejudice in disability.
There's no prejudice ordiscrimination in addiction, you
can be the highest functioningexecutive, great family
(15:37):
upbringing, and somehow stillend up becoming an alcoholic for
any reason, like anything at anypoint in time, can make you
identify with other people, andmaybe you never thought that you
could get there. I mean, fingerscrossed, you know, that doesn't
happen, but it can happen,
Elle Billing (15:59):
right. And I, you know, I've, I've said this
before on the podcast, and I'llprobably repeat it for as long
as I have a podcast, but 25% ofthe US population identifies as
disabled. Those are the peoplewho actually claim their
disability and say, I have adisability, and it's the only
demographic or marginalizedgroup, or however you want to
(16:20):
phrase it, that you can justinstantly join that you weren't
part of before. You know, Ididn't used to be chronically
ill or disabled, and I am now.
You can't really shift into,like other population groups
quite as, quite as quickly asyou can into disability, and I
think that's something a lot ofpeople aren't comfortable
thinking about. We like to thinkwe have some level of control
over our health and wellness,and it can be actually quite
(16:43):
fickle,
Unknown (16:47):
yeah. And I remember one of the first episodes that I
had listened to from yourpodcast, you had quoted one of
your own friends saying that,you know if, if you are lucky
enough, you will be old enoughto become disabled,
Elle Billing (17:02):
yeah, yep. If you live, if you live long enough,
you'll become disabled. You'llget old enough to become
disabled. Yep, I think I'verepeated that on a few episodes
too.
Teisha Gillespie (17:11):
I mean, some things, there are some things
that are definitely worthrepeating, yeah, um, and, you
know, thinking about it. So I,one of my disabilities is that
I'm blind. I have a conditioncalled retinitis pigmentosa, or
RP, and thinking about that aswell, I was born kind of with,
like, the full severity of thecondition for for my strand. And
(17:33):
so I've never really known lifeany differently. I do have some
usable sight, but I, you know,I've, I've never known life
differently. So you know, almostit's if I don't know that I have
bad eyes, because these are theonly eyes that I've ever had.
But there are some strands of RPwhere people are born with
nearly 20/20 vision, and thenjust out of nowhere, their
(17:56):
vision decreases. And then everyfew years, it decreases even
more. And so even though theywere born with a disability,
they too, still go through thosethat experience of joining the
disability club,
Elle Billing (18:10):
yeah, and having it be dynamic and changing. And
yeah. So I guess we can talkabout accessibility a little
bit. One of the reasons it'staken six months, like we said,
to get this episode on thebooks, is the accessibility of
the platform that I use forrecording my podcast. I had a
(18:31):
friend who is has albinism andhe's low vision, and he works in
assistive technology, and Iasked him to run through my
onboarding process for forguests before I, like, sent you
all the links. This is allthings you know, this is for the
benefit of the listeners. Likehe went through everything, and
it was all accessible to screenreaders, except the final step,
(18:55):
which was the actual recordingplatform. And so none of the
buttons or anything in therecording platform were labeled
for people who use screenreaders or other assistive tech
for for vision on a computer.
And I was surprised. I shouldn'thave been. I know that
accessibility is an issue insoftware, but then I wasn't sure
(19:17):
what I was gonna do. And sowe're recording on Zoom, which
is how you record your podcast,which Zoom because it's more
widely known. They have betterbecause they have to, right?
They have a bigger audience.
They have more accessibilityfeatures. I think other
companies have to too. They justhaven't done it yet.
Teisha Gillespie (19:39):
Yeah, I mean, and I will be to be fair, I
Well, two things, I think. One,oftentimes people don't know
what they don't know, right? Ifthey've never been exposed to
someone who has had to use ascreen reader to navigate, then
they've never had anyone to tellthem hey, every button on this
platform says, Unlabeled Button,Unlabeled Button. You know, if I
(20:02):
never have to hear that phraseagain coming from my screen
reader, I would be the mostoverjoyed person.
Elle Billing (20:08):
Oh my gosh, I'm sure.
Teisha Gillespie (20:10):
So there's that kind of, that element of
you don't know what you don'tknow. But then also, you know,
some of these platforms that arenot Zoom because they're not so
big, they also don't necessarilyhave the money, potentially, to
invest in additional qualityassurance and maybe bringing on
someone who has digitalaccessibility background, which
(20:31):
I don't think necessarily is anexcuse for them to not
prioritize it. I don't thinkthey're intentionally de
prioritizing it, but they'realso not intentionally
prioritizing it, right?
Elle Billing (20:42):
They're not thinking with a diverse set of
end users in mind.
Teisha Gillespie (20:47):
Yeah, and that's one thing that I've
really tried to, really try toshare more of, and I'm so
thankful there are so manyreally incredible people, like a
person I interviewed on my showa couple years ago, who runs a
digital accessibilityorganization. It's actually
global, but she's located inIndia. But, you know, we talked
(21:08):
a lot about how accessibility,what is good for digital
accessibility and enablingpeople who might use assistive
technology to navigate the weband mobile applications is also
good for everyone. It makeseveryone's life easier. And you
know, we're talking about autocorrect on your cell phone was
(21:30):
initially designed for peoplewho have motor limitations, and
you know, so they don't have totype up the entire word. But
guess what? Auto correction isalso great for people who may
not have been great at spellingwhen they were in school, or,
you know, when you just type tooquickly and you mistype
something. And then captions onvideos were initially designed
(21:53):
for people who were deaf or hardof hearing. But guess what? It's
also great for everyone. Andeven it's also probably great,
you know, I know, at least formy partner, who has ADHD, having
captions on sometimes means thathe has to not rewind as much to
go back and catch something thathe might have missed if he was
only relying on audio. And it'salso true for the physical world
(22:15):
as well. Like if you think abouta ramp, which people often think
of, it's just for people who arein wheelchairs. But guess what?
It's also great for a parent whomight be pushing a stroller with
a baby. It's also great if youlive in the city and you do, you
know you walked to and from thegrocery store and you have like,
five bags, you may not want towalk up a bunch of steps after
(22:37):
walking a mile to and from thegrocery store, right? So, you
know, I love this other analogytoo. But if accessibility can be
at the beginning of the sentenceand not the period at the end of
the sentence in all situations,I think it would just make the
world better for everyone livingin it.
Elle Billing (22:57):
Yeah, I agree. I definitely agree with that. You
mentioned auto correct andcaptions. I used to work at a
deaf school, and what I noticedis, when my I taught elementary
first and then middle school andhigh school, is that one one of
my students. And of course, thisis like an N-equals-one study,
right? This is, this isanecdata. I had a student who
(23:21):
her-- she started texting me onher mom's phone about third or
fourth grade, and havingpredictive text and auto correct
started to improve her grammarin her writing, because Standard
English grammar is what'sprogrammed into phone
dictionaries. So her textingstarted to become more like
coherently, English and correct,and that started to impact her,
(23:43):
her writing work in class, aswell as a language learner.
Captions, too are good for,yeah, the Deaf and Hard of
Hearing is who they weredesigned for, but it's they're
good language learning tools forEnglish language learners. And
there are, there were ways thatwe could utilize captions to,
like, teach vocabulary andreinforce vocabulary too, with
(24:05):
deaf and hard of hearingstudents. They're just, they're
tools that can be used foreverybody.
Unknown (24:10):
Yeah? I mean, I that that represents the universality
even more. Yeah, multilinguallearners.
Elle Billing (24:17):
So you've addressed a little bit, or
actually quite a bit about thepodcast and how you started it,
because you really wanted toaddress stigma, the stigma
around various embodiments ofdiversity, around various
adversities, because stigma doescome attached to so many of the
intersections that we mayinhabit. You mentioned yours, my
(24:39):
own. I'm disabled, I'mchronically ill, I'm queer, all
of these labels carry weightthat we don't necessarily choose
for ourselves, even if we'reokay with the labels that we
have. So stigma leads to tosilencing, because you've
approached these stigmas andaddressed systemic silencing
like through your podcast byhaving the podcast. Has having
(25:02):
the podcast and meeting allthese people and having all
these interviews and looking atall of these various diversities
and adversities and sort ofbreaking some of those silences,
has it changed the other partsof your life and how you address
those issues?
Teisha Gillespie (25:19):
You know, I not to jump too far ahead of the
interview, but I might kind ofhit on one of the questions that
you have later on. So becauseI've been, you know, I count
myself lucky, firstly, thatthere are people even willing to
sit down and talk to me for one,two, sometimes three hours, but
(25:41):
just to share, like, the depthsof their experiences with me.
And like I said, these are somereally hard conversations. And
there's definitely been timeswhen one or both of the people,
either me and or the otherperson, you know, we get to
tears sometimes. I mean, there,there's some really tough
conversations happening.
Obviously, having had listenedto some of these stories. You
(26:01):
know, I've had my mind change ona few things. Or I think I would
like to say that my mind hasgrown on a few things. But I
think when it comes to engagingwith other people, especially
those who have some of thosedeeply ingrained beliefs on
certain things, andunfortunately, it's, it's
oftentimes folks who are, youknow, of a red mindset. And I
(26:25):
think what's been really helpfulfor me in engaging in these
conversations, because I'm avery black and white person when
it comes to right and wrongethics, any kind of question
about justice or equity, it'sreally easy for me to just get
caught up and get really fierybecause I feel so strongly about
(26:45):
these topics. But I think what'sbeen so helpful about having
this podcast is--It's almost asif I now have this library or
this repertoire of stories andanecdotes that I can go to
instead to help illustrate someof, you know, my points and some
of these beliefs and ideas thatmight be contrary to the person
(27:10):
that I'm talking to. And Ithink, you know, that's that's
the one thing that I love somuch about stories, is that
they're so powerful, they canevoke emotion, they can again,
kind of create this idea thatthere's someone out there who I
can relate to. We talk about thebad side of bias, but there's
also this positive side when itcomes to bias, if you can find a
(27:32):
commonality with someone else,then you're going to become
biased toward them, but in agood way,
Elle Billing (27:39):
yeah
Teisha Gillespie (27:39):
and I think that like being able to actually
talk on like when it comes toconversation, especially around
mental health, because that'sone thing that people can't see.
It's the invisible disabilitythat people can't see. And
there's so many differentcategories. There's still so
much misconception and stigmathat most a lot of mental
(28:00):
health, whether it be anxiety ordepression is just a temporary
state that there's a way tophysically control it, and yes,
there's definitely somebehavioral changes and some
tactics that you can do to maybehelp manage it or lessen it in
the moment. But they're chemicalimbalances, and they are, you
know, oftentimes environmentallycharged as well, and medicine
(28:22):
needs, oftentimes, is the bestremedy for it. And, you know,
being able to kind of go to someof these stories and talk about
how depression or anxiety hasimpacted someone, and maybe even
that, that really sadintersection with suicide or
addiction, you know, I think thepower of human stories, and just
being able to get to someone onthat, you know, get to their
(28:44):
heart, almost, I think, has beenso powerful and has really
helped me be able to, I think,communicate and what is it? It's
ah-- is it? Is it ethos, nopathos? I think, right when
we're talking about rhetoric. Soreally, being able to lean more
so on that pathos versus, youknow, I'm a very like, I said
black and white, so I wouldtypically go to like, the logos
(29:07):
part, which doesn't always sitwell with people. So I will say
that that's that's been reallyhelpful in terms of the way that
I approach, just to actually beable to use some of the stories
that I've heard to be able tocommunicate and hopefully help
change people's minds on certainthings.
Elle Billing (29:24):
Thank you for that. So I mentioned a little
bit ago that I used to work atthe school for the deaf, and it
was, it was a school for thedeaf and blind. I just worked in
the Deaf/Hard of Hearingdepartment. So one of the things
I noticed, and I've noticed overa long period of time, first in
that career as a teacher of thedeaf and hard of hearing, and
now as a disabled person, andlike a once, now that I've seen
(29:47):
it, I can't unsee it. It's thatkind of phenomenon because I've
seen it, and now I know what itlooks like, and now I see it
everywhere. Is the amount ofpaternalism that disabled, deaf,
and blind individuals experiencefrom well-meaning, but largely
uninformed, people who areabled, hearing and/or sighted,
so the people who misunderstandand mean well but end up being
(30:10):
really paternalistic orcondescending. My disability has
an extensive amount of fatiguethat comes with it, and I'm
usually so fatigued in thosesituations that I'm not
especially tactful, or I justdon't address it because I'm too
tired. So I'm curious what, whatyour approach is to addressing
paternalism when it happens toyou as a blind individual.
Teisha Gillespie (30:33):
Hmm, that's a that's a good one. I definitely
can relate to you in terms of,you know, being, I think, more,
maybe not necessarily physicallyfatigued, but more so exhausted
by, and I think you've talkedabout this too, just constantly
having to fight for yourself oradvocate, or constantly having
(30:57):
to re explain things. And itreally does depend. I really try
to, because my sight is limited.
I feel like I have this extrasense where I can, you know, my
partner, you know, I don't knowif you also identify it as
having this two Elle, but mypartner, who is also ADHD, you
(31:18):
know, really relies on hisvibes. And for me, I can
actually feel energy from comingfrom someone you know, whether
it's like positive energy ortoxic energy or maybe it's just
neutral. But I feel like thatmight be kind of similar maybe
(31:39):
to what the vibes are that maybeother people feel. And so if I
get, you know, kind of thattoxic, negative vibe or energy,
I don't necessarily like this,but oftentimes it's, you know, I
don't even bother. I'm not goingto be able to change your mind.
You know, we were engaging this,in this two minute interaction
(32:00):
right now, there's probably nopoint to even doing this, so I
just in that time. You know,that's, that's where we talk
about the intersection betweenstigma and silencing. That's
where I sometimes fall silentand I just, I just go on, and I
try to forget about it. But if Ido feel like there is an
opportunity, especially inplaces where I have a
(32:21):
relationship that's a little bitmore long term, that's where it
I try to do what they say asshowing versus telling. And so
there's a lot of you know,oftentimes where people you
know, even though I'm blind, I'mnot deaf, I'm not mute. People
will talk to other people andask them questions about me,
(32:44):
even though I'm right there,because I can't see you, so I
must not be able to, you know,actually respond to you, that
that what I would say reallygets to me. And so that's one of
the situations, regardless ofthe energy that I'm feeling,
that I will speak up and say,Hey, you can ask me that
question. And by the way, theanswer is, dot, dot, dot. But
(33:04):
then there's kind of just thethe you know, in the workplace,
people maybe not thinking thatyou're able to perform as high
or just do the same types oftasks that other people can do.
And yes, we can do them, butthey do require some
accommodations to level theplaying field, like we were
talking about earlier, screenreaders. That's one way I'm able
(33:25):
to perform in the workplace andhave it be at this the same
level as other people. And so,you know, just being able to
actually do my job, likeliterally show people that I'm
able to do marketing the sameway that you're able to do
marketing. And guess what, I'malso able to perform at a very,
very high level. I my analyticalskills are just as high as
(33:46):
yours. My problem solving skillsare just as high as yours. My
communication skills, bothverbally and written, are just
as high as yours. I just have tolisten to something tell me
everything that's on my computerscreen, versus you being able to
use your eyes to scan thecomputer screen. So, you know, I
feel like, for me, I do feel asif sometimes that I've had to,
(34:10):
quote, unquote, work harder thanother people, because there's
kind of, you know, like the themeasuring stick by which you
know, I'm being judged, at leastfrom my perception. I've never
actually had anyone tell methis, that Oh, Teisha, we're
gonna make you hit this 24 inchhigh stick versus everyone else.
only has to hit like 18 inches.
(34:31):
But again, it's kind of thatvibe or that energy that I feel
from certain people. And so yes,I do feel as if I've had to
perform at a much higher leveland have better metrics than
people, or maybe get somethingdone faster, or just do more
work in less time. And I thinkour that is due to my
disability, sometimes it'sbecause I am in the marketing
(34:51):
field, especially earlier on,there weren't necessarily a lot
of women, and definitely not alot of women of color. And so
it's, you know. You have to dotwice as much in half the time,
almost, and so. But with thatsaid, I've been, regardless of
the motivation behind it, I havebeen able to kind of show people
what a blind person can do inthe workplace, what a blind
(35:14):
person can do in terms ofinteracting in personal
communities, um, and even, Ithink, with my podcast too, I
think I've been able to show,you know, other, not just
sighted people, but even otherblind or low vision people who
may not have role models. Youknow, one thing that I talk a
lot about on my my podcast, thatpeople are probably like, okay,
(35:36):
Teisha, we've heard this so manytimes, is this, you know, we
talk about privilege, andoftentimes, privilege, again,
can have this negativeconnotation, but there is a
positive privilege when it comesto exposure privilege. Some
people have the privilege ofbeing exposed to a very diverse
group of people. You know, somepeople grow up and they're
(35:58):
automatically surrounded bymultiple people with
disabilities or people withdifferent sexual orientations or
gender identities or ethnicbackgrounds, and they just been
so fortunate to grow up in thattype of environment where
there's other people were onlyaround one group of people, like
it's a very homogenouscommunity, and so they don't
know anything else, right? Andso even when it comes to blind
(36:21):
and low vision people, there aresometimes stigmas even within
the community itself, becausethey don't even realize that
there can be something differentabout their lives. I'm sorry. I
feel like I've been blabbing ona little bit, but I do really
try to show people as often, asmuch as I can, versus telling
them, because I do think thatbeing able to actually go out
(36:42):
and do something is oftentimesmore impactful versus just
saying, like you don't yourbelief is wrong, and know that
you know what blind people orwhat low vision people can do is
very different from maybe whatyou're imagining they can do.
Elle Billing (36:58):
Yeah, I get that, all right. I have one question
left, and like you said, youkind of touched on it a little
bit, but I'm going to be like,it's going to be like, a more
like, specific ask and probablya little more precise answer,
since I'm asking it directly.
Sorry, that wasn't a knock. Idon't think you're blabbering at
all. I'm just like, this is likea one type of like, sorry, I'm
(37:19):
having trouble wordsing Today,the question, I like it when you
talk a lot, because you have alot of really good stuff to say.
My point was that this questionis, like, really zeroed in on,
like, one specific thing aboutyour podcast is what I was
trying to say. Oh, okay, what isone true thing that you have
(37:45):
learned from doing your podcast?
Unknown (37:48):
I think there's so many things that I could say here,
some of which I've brieflytouched on throughout this
conversation, because there'sbeen so many and I know this can
be a really tough subject formaybe some people to hear,
especially if you've knownsomeone or maybe you've tried
yourself to take your life fromsuicide. But when it comes to
(38:12):
suicide, one true thing thatI've learned is that there is no
shame in suicide, you know,there, we've talked about kind
of stigma a lot, and you know,one thing that stigma causes is
a lot a lot of personal,internal shame about your
(38:34):
experiences, even experiencesthat you may not have any
control over, and some of thatmight be your predisposition to
depression. Some of it might bethat you unfortunately were born
with the chronic condition ofvertigo, and you live, literally
(38:54):
live every day with a migraine.
And because you're constantlylike, you live every day with a
migraine, and so a lot of thetime you're just spent, and I'm
sure Elle, I know that you'vealso, you also deal with chronic
migraine, and I know you also,you know you, you spend a lot of
time sleeping, which is great. II wish I probably don't sleep
(39:18):
enough. But if you if, for somepeople, if you live in that type
of state, it really can causethis deep seated depression, and
you can think that there's noway out, especially if there are
systems telling you that yourcondition is not an actual
(39:40):
condition, and no, we're notgoing to treat you like everyone
else and maybe give you, youknow, the financial assistance
that you need, or the healthbenefits that you need to find
some way to manage this, evenjust a little bit. I think that
one thing that I really learnedis that the intersection between
(40:00):
shame and suicide is so strong,it really and there's, you know,
a lot of people think that, oh,you know, I've been depressed
before, but I never kill myself.
When it comes to depression, itreally can be this debilitating
(40:22):
experience, and sometimes itmight only last for a few
months, sometimes it can lastfor a couple of years. And I
think the way that if someonedoes end up taking their life by
suicide, there are people,siblings and spouses and friends
that are left behind, and thestigma, in a way, persist and
(40:45):
get, then gets placed upon thefamily members and the friends
that were left behind. It'slike, like they did that. They
left you, they they wereselfish, they were weak.
Elle Billing (40:55):
Yeah, and it's not like that at all.
Teisha Gillespie (40:57):
No, oh my gosh. And it's, you know, I tell
you know, I think a really greatexample that I heard in this
past season is that people reactso differently. If you say, Hey,
I lost my parent to cancerversus I lost my parent to
suicide, it's jarring howdifferent it is, but it does not
change the grief and the angerand the sadness
Elle Billing (41:21):
I've noticed a reframing of the way people talk
about -- like and a lot ofadvocacy circles, particularly
around mental health and suicideprevention. But you know, people
saying someone died fromdepression, like they died of
the disease of depression, likethe depression ended up being
(41:43):
the disease that caused theirdeath. So, like, people
understand that it's not justpeople just don't wake up one
morning and decide to completesuicide. It's like a chronic
disease, and that's just oneincarnation of it.
Unknown (42:01):
And because things like mental health themselves are,
there's still-- we were talkingabout it earlier-- there's still
so much stigma around it. Peopledon't seek help
Elle Billing (42:10):
right now trying to find a therapist anywhere is
difficult. It's difficultbecause that's just compounding
the situation for people who arein mental health crises. Because
I think a lot of therapists andcounselors left the field during
and after COVID Because theywere, I mean, their caseloads
went up, and that was a reallytough time for everybody,
(42:31):
especially the mental healthfield and really all the care
fields, it's really hard to getin and get seen for that kind of
Unknown (42:40):
It's so hard. It's so hard. I've personally been
stuff right now.
looking for a therapist. And Ireally could have used one of
these last six months too. And Ithink that would have been, that
would have, you know, maybe nothave gotten rid of every thing
that I was feeling, but itdefinitely would have helped.
And I think that that's beensomething, you know, I haven't
(43:00):
had a therapist since last, lastOctober, so it's been almost a
year.
Elle Billing (43:05):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think that's
really important, thatconversation about stigma and
shame, people need support andlove and understanding and
compassion, not not that otherstuff.
Unknown (43:20):
Yeah. Yeah, empathy.
Elle Billing (43:23):
Well, thank you for being here. I'm glad we
finally got to sit downtogether.
Teisha Gillespie (43:28):
Thank you so much Elle for having me. I've--
this has been a really, reallygreat conversation, and I hope I
didn't dampen the mood.
Elle Billing (43:36):
Oh no,
Teisha Gillespie (43:37):
going in that direction.
Elle Billing (43:38):
No, not at all. We take the full spectrum here. So
just for a little final blurb,where can people find your
podcast?
Unknown (43:51):
So Not Your Average GOAT. You can find it on all
major podcast platforms. SoSpotify, Apple, YouTube, I
heart, Amazon Music. We're onsocial media at Not Average GOAT
across Meta, also on LinkedIn aswell, if you hang out there,
Elle Billing (44:08):
Great. Once again, thank you so much for being
here.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of Hoorf. To get the
complete show notes and all thelinks mentioned on today's
episode, or to get a fulltranscript of the episode, visit
hoorfpodcast dot com. Join theBlessed Herd of St Winkus. By
(44:30):
signing up for our newsletter,you can get Hoorf episodes
delivered directly to yourinbox. What's more, you get
invitations to our monthlyCoffee and Biscuits chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show,
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that athoorfpodcast.com . If you become
a patron for only $3 a month,you can support the creation of
(44:53):
this podcast, elp pay my editor,and join a community of
caregivers out here just doingour best. Thank you, again for
joining me, Elle Billing, thechronically ill queer femme who
is very tired, on this episodeof Hoorf .Until next time, be
excellent to each other.
Hoorf is hosted by Elle Billing@elleandwink, audio editing by
(45:16):
Ricki Cummings, @rickiep00hmusic composed by Ricki
Cummings. Hoorf is a productionof Elle & Wink Art Studio, LLC,
all rights reserved. Hoorf canbe found on all social media
platforms @hoorfpodcast, at H,O, O, R, F, podcast.
(45:41):
Ricki is a genius, and we'lledit that out.
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
radical care in a late capitalist heckscape.
(01:02):
My guest today is TeishaGillespie. Teisha is a native
Marylander who now resides inVirginia. Being the eldest of
seven girls amongst a turbulentupbringing, Teisha has always
been an innate protector andjustice advocate. From nine to
five,Teisha is a marketingdirector for an early education
nonprofit that believes everychild deserves equitable access
(01:22):
to high quality learningexperiences that will put them
on a successful path in schooland life. From five to nine,
Teisha volunteers as thecommunications chair for the
National Federation of the Blindof Virginia and moonlights as
the host of Not Your AverageGOAT Podcast, a show that
celebrates all the shapes, sizesand colors of diversity as well
as adversity. As a blind,vision-disabled individual who
(01:43):
also happens to be a Blackfemale managing anxiety, Teisha
is passionate about making animpact and dismantling the
stigma and prejudice thatencases marginalized
communities. I'm excited to haveTeisha on the podcast today.
Welcome to Hoorf. Let's just,like, dive into it, and Ricki
can decide where to cut us offat the beginning and then at the
(02:06):
end. Because, like, we're reallychatty, because we've talked a
few times now, because thisinterview has been in the making
for by the time this airs, it'llbe like, six months, something
like that. Yeah, scheduling andrescheduling and sending
questions back and forth andtrying to figure out when we can
make this happen, which is oneof the things that I have on our
(02:29):
list of topics, was how long ittook us to get here. But I'm
going to start with my firstquestion, which I always start
with, which is, how have youreceived care this week?
Teisha Gillespie (02:39):
You know, and I was, I was reading the
questions just a minute ago, andI was like, This couldn't have
been timed better, because Ialmost feel like I'm cheating by
having this podcast episodescheduled where it is. Because
for the first time in over ayear, I have had 10, almost 10
(03:02):
straight days off from work, andit's been so overdue. I hit
burnout pretty quickly thisyear. I had so many different
back to back events thathappened. I had someone leave
our organization, and so my teamessentially increased by 50%
(03:24):
temporarily for about fourmonths. And three weeks after
that happened, I had one of mydirect reports go on maternity
leave three weeks earlier thanexpected in the middle of a huge
project. Okay, and so Iimmediately had to not just take
over that project and kind offigure out and really get into
(03:45):
the weeds where I had not reallybeen in the weeds before, but
then also start working closelywith her direct report, who had
only been with the company for amonth. And I was like, I felt so
bad that this, this poor girl,you know, her boss goes on
maternity leave three weeksearlier, and it's this huge
project. And I bet she felt sooverwhelmed too. But then I've
(04:07):
had just so many things over thelast four or five months happen.
Most of it related to work, andso I hit burnout really, really
hard, and I just was not,unfortunately, in the position
to be able to take time off. Icould take one or two days, but
it's like when your phone'sabout to die, but you have to go
somewhere, so you just plug itup for five minutes. That's
(04:28):
basically what those one or twodays did for me. It really just
it gave me enough charge so thatI can make it through the next
week. But then once I got to theweek after, I was back at rock
bottom, and I've been there forso long. And so two weeks ago, I
decided our year, our fiscalyear, work is ending. And I was
(04:48):
just like, You know what? Thisis probably going to be the
calmest time of the year. I'mjust going to submit the time
and take off and just add on tomy labor day weekend and do it
because I just need to unplug.
And it's been a staycation. Ihaven't even gone anywhere. I
can't necessarily say that it'sbeen relaxing, but that's been
totally fine for me, becauseI've been focusing on some of my
volunteer work, some of thethings for the podcast. So it's
(05:09):
been just all me, and I'veintentionally, like, I keep
telling myself, anytime a littlethought about work creeps into
my mind, I'm just immediatelyzap it out. Like, nope. Teisha,
nope. Start thinking about thisother thing. And I even told my
partner too. I was like, if Istart talking about work, just
tell me to stop it, because Ineed to keep it out of my mind
for the full 10 days so that Ican actually go back and feel
(05:30):
refreshed. So that's what I'vedone this week for myself.
Elle Billing (05:36):
I'm so glad that you were able to do that. I know
how that that's that was such agood analogy, too, about how
when you only have 5% batteryand you just stick it on the
charger long enough to go to thenext thing I'm gonna borrow that
Teisha Gillespie (05:49):
definitely
Elle Billing (05:50):
that's such, that is such a good analogy, because
there's that feeling of dreadand anxiety that goes along with
it, with the phone itself, butalso with the like, Knowing you
don't have enough energy andenough to get through whatever
you need to do, it's like, itjust got to get to Friday. I
just got to get to Friday. Ijust got to get to Friday.
There's like, a whole sense ofdread that goes along with that,
(06:10):
that that makes it hard to dowhat you need to do, even during
that time, at least for me, whenI'm in that head space of like,
being so close to burnout?
Teisha Gillespie (06:20):
Yeah, yeah.
And speaking of that dread too,there's been just so many other
things, like I said, it hasmostly been a work, and there's
been other anxiety driven andstress striving events that have
happened that just have added onto that as well. So, you know,
having that 5% or 10% charge hasbeen so crucial just thinking
about Friday, because mentally,my mental health, my anxiety, my
(06:44):
depression, like I, you know,there's been so many times where
I've just, you know, grabbed somy partner has ADHD, so he's
constantly checking his bloodpressure because he's on
Adderall and so, like, I've usedhis blood pressure monitor so
many times because I've beenafraid that mine has risen.
Thankfully, I haven't really runinto any risky events, but
(07:05):
that's just how intense it'sbeen lately. And so I'm very
glad that I finally just pulledthe trigger and said, Teisha,
you're going to do this. Andthankfully, my PTO got approved,
so I was very happy.
Elle Billing (07:22):
Yeah, that's good.
So you mentioned your podcast,and so I'd like to talk about
that a little bit. Your podcastis called, Not Your Average
GOAT, GOAT being Greatest of AllTime. You borrowed the sports
acronym. So can you what can youtell us about why you started
the podcast, not your averagegoat, and the kinds of stories
(07:44):
that you feature in eachepisode?
So my background, at thebeginning of my career, I was
working for a publishing agency,interviewing small business
owners and really being able tokind of zoom in on their own
personal story to how they gotto starting their business, you
know, why they're so passionateabout it. And even talk a lot
(08:05):
about, you know, with a smallbusiness, a lot of them were
family owned businesses, so eventalking about the intersection
with that as well. And I got tobring these people stories to
life through magazine articles.
And I really, really love that.
And I actually imagined myselfone day going into like a
journalistic type of role, andmy career just decided it was
(08:27):
going to go in a completelydifferent direction. But I never
lost that storytellingcomponent. But I say that
because I initially started mypodcast recognizing that I've
been really lucky over theyears, you know, especially, I
would say, living in what wecall the DMV area, which is the
DC, Maryland, Virginia region.
There's a lot of nomads here, alot of people from not just all
(08:53):
over the country, but also allover the world, who kind of come
to this area because there's somany government opportunities,
so many nonprofits located here,and so I've been so lucky to
acquaint and befriend so manyincredible people with so many
different identities,backgrounds, lived experiences.
And I started thinking that, youknow, I hear all these other
(09:16):
podcasts interviewing theseincredible people, but they're
actors and they're comedians,and there's politicians and all
these people who you knoweveryone knows, but I was like,
there's so many incrediblepeople with amazing stories who
are just quote, unquote averageand people don't know about
them, and I think I'd like tocreate a platform to showcase
(09:37):
their stories. And so that'sinitially how my podcast got
started. But with that said,over the last two, two and a
half years, I've really beenable to kind of zoom in on my
actual mission and vision, and Irealized through the showcasing
these stories. So my tagline hasalways been to celebrate all the
shapes, sizes and colors ofdiversity, as well as adversity,
(09:58):
and I personally have manydifferent diversity identifiers.
I'm a female, you know, I'm aperson of color, I have two
disabilities, I have anxietydisorder. I'm also blind, and so
because of a lot of thesethings, and because of my
environment growing up, I've hadto face and navigate and been
(10:19):
able to overcome some of theseadversities, and I learned that
a lot of these things can bevery tough to talk about,
because there is already a lotof stigma sometimes related to
your diversity identities, butthen adversity that sometimes
results directly from some ofyour identities has a lot of
stigma as well. It's reallydifficult to have conversations
(10:41):
around addiction or disabilityor suicide. You know the
intersection between race andincarceration, and you know what
it's like, for instance, youknow coming out, and maybe just,
you know not coming out, butmaybe you're coming out as
polyamorous, and no oneunderstands what that means, and
there's just a lot ofquestioning around it. And so,
(11:04):
you know, through having theseconversations early on, I
started to realize there werethemes when they were talking
about their story. There wasalmost this kind of like
therapeutic release that somepeople were having, and having
someone share that with me. Ifelt, you know, I personally
felt really great that I've beenable to kind of create a space
(11:25):
for some of these folks thatI've interviewed. But then on
the other side of it, people whowere listening would reach out
and say, you know, I justlistened to so and so's story.
And, you know, I never thoughtthat there was anyone else who
experienced the bullying that Idid when I was a kid, or I just
listened to so and so's story,and it really gave me a
(11:45):
different perspective on my wifeand my child, who are dealing
with different, you know, neuro-neuro-spiciness levels or
disabilities, or, you know, I'vealso lost someone to suicide,
and I also experienced exactlywhat this other person went
through. And so the power ofrelatability that you can find
(12:06):
through authentic storytellingis something else that I've
realized. And so I've reallyzoomed my mission in on creating
a platform for these relatableor these authentic stories that
are hopefully relatable,informative, help to kind of use
education, but in a kind way, topotentially help change minds
(12:30):
about certain deeply heldbeliefs around different lived
experiences or identities, andto hopefully have an impact on
dismantling stigma throughhaving these uncomfortable
conversations. And so that'sreally where I am right now. And
so I talk to people like I said,of all different walks, all
(12:52):
different backgrounds, alldifferent types of adversities.
And I really try to emphasizethat there really are so many
different shapes, sizes andcolors of adversity, because,
yes, they're going to beanalogous and adjacent
experiences, and people aregoing to hopefully feel seen and
understood by hearing otherpeople's experiences, but also
two people can go through thesame experience and come out of
(13:16):
it very, very differently. Andso I really tried to emphasize
that there's really, there's nocomparison. Just because I've
talked to one person who'sovercome or navigated addiction,
or because I've talked to oneperson who's, you know, lived
with a disability, it doesn'tmean that everyone else's
experience is going to be thesame. And so there are some
(13:36):
times where I actually, youknow, I have multiple people on
to talk about addiction,multiple people on to talk about
disability, postpartumdepression, because everyone's
individual story is soimportant, because it every each
story brings to light somethingnew and is able to touch someone
else in a different way than theother previous stories that came
(14:00):
before ItThat bit at the end, about
people who experience like thesame thing experience it
differently, came up last seasonin a conversation about autism,
where, if you've met oneautistic person, you've met one
autistic person, like knowing anautistic person gives you their
experience. Like, you know, theautism spectrum is so broad and
(14:21):
the experiences are so nuancedand diverse that, like I
interviewed my sister about ourexperiences growing up
neurodivergent, but undiagnosed.
And that experience of havinglisteners reach out and say, oh
my gosh, thank you for thatepisode I never knew. You know,
we had that experience with mythe episode with my sister. But
(14:45):
again, my sister's experience isonly one person, and I have a
lot of friends on the autismspectrum who are very, very
different, and their experienceis quite different from what my
sister's is. And so, like, Ireally appreciate that about the
way that you have done yourpodcast is that you have
multiple people with stories ofaddiction, because everyone's
(15:07):
story is important and isindividual. You know, it may
reach somebody a different waythan the previous one.
Unknown (15:13):
Yeah. And I think another thing you know, as you
were talking, and I think Iliterally just realized this, is
that I another really greatvalue to having multiple
different stories is thathopefully it shows to the world
that these types of experiencesdo not discriminate, like there
is no prejudice in disability.
There's no prejudice ordiscrimination in addiction, you
can be the highest functioningexecutive, great family
(15:37):
upbringing, and somehow stillend up becoming an alcoholic for
any reason, like anything at anypoint in time, can make you
identify with other people, andmaybe you never thought that you
could get there. I mean, fingerscrossed, you know, that doesn't
happen, but it can happen,
Elle Billing (15:59):
right. And I, you know, I've, I've said this
before on the podcast, and I'llprobably repeat it for as long
as I have a podcast, but 25% ofthe US population identifies as
disabled. Those are the peoplewho actually claim their
disability and say, I have adisability, and it's the only
demographic or marginalizedgroup, or however you want to
(16:20):
phrase it, that you can justinstantly join that you weren't
part of before. You know, Ididn't used to be chronically
ill or disabled, and I am now.
You can't really shift into,like other population groups
quite as, quite as quickly asyou can into disability, and I
think that's something a lot ofpeople aren't comfortable
thinking about. We like to thinkwe have some level of control
over our health and wellness,and it can be actually quite
(16:43):
fickle,
Unknown (16:47):
yeah. And I remember one of the first episodes that I
had listened to from yourpodcast, you had quoted one of
your own friends saying that,you know if, if you are lucky
enough, you will be old enoughto become disabled,
Elle Billing (17:02):
yeah, yep. If you live, if you live long enough,
you'll become disabled. You'llget old enough to become
disabled. Yep, I think I'verepeated that on a few episodes
too.
Teisha Gillespie (17:11):
I mean, some things, there are some things
that are definitely worthrepeating, yeah, um, and, you
know, thinking about it. So I,one of my disabilities is that
I'm blind. I have a conditioncalled retinitis pigmentosa, or
RP, and thinking about that aswell, I was born kind of with,
like, the full severity of thecondition for for my strand. And
(17:33):
so I've never really known lifeany differently. I do have some
usable sight, but I, you know,I've, I've never known life
differently. So you know, almostit's if I don't know that I have
bad eyes, because these are theonly eyes that I've ever had.
But there are some strands of RPwhere people are born with
nearly 20/20 vision, and thenjust out of nowhere, their
(17:56):
vision decreases. And then everyfew years, it decreases even
more. And so even though theywere born with a disability,
they too, still go through thosethat experience of joining the
disability club,
Elle Billing (18:10):
yeah, and having it be dynamic and changing. And
yeah. So I guess we can talkabout accessibility a little
bit. One of the reasons it'staken six months, like we said,
to get this episode on thebooks, is the accessibility of
the platform that I use forrecording my podcast. I had a
(18:31):
friend who is has albinism andhe's low vision, and he works in
assistive technology, and Iasked him to run through my
onboarding process for forguests before I, like, sent you
all the links. This is allthings you know, this is for the
benefit of the listeners. Likehe went through everything, and
it was all accessible to screenreaders, except the final step,
(18:55):
which was the actual recordingplatform. And so none of the
buttons or anything in therecording platform were labeled
for people who use screenreaders or other assistive tech
for for vision on a computer.
And I was surprised. I shouldn'thave been. I know that
accessibility is an issue insoftware, but then I wasn't sure
(19:17):
what I was gonna do. And sowe're recording on Zoom, which
is how you record your podcast,which Zoom because it's more
widely known. They have betterbecause they have to, right?
They have a bigger audience.
They have more accessibilityfeatures. I think other
companies have to too. They justhaven't done it yet.
Teisha Gillespie (19:39):
Yeah, I mean, and I will be to be fair, I
Well, two things, I think. One,oftentimes people don't know
what they don't know, right? Ifthey've never been exposed to
someone who has had to use ascreen reader to navigate, then
they've never had anyone to tellthem hey, every button on this
platform says, Unlabeled Button,Unlabeled Button. You know, if I
(20:02):
never have to hear that phraseagain coming from my screen
reader, I would be the mostoverjoyed person.
Elle Billing (20:08):
Oh my gosh, I'm sure.
Teisha Gillespie (20:10):
So there's that kind of, that element of
you don't know what you don'tknow. But then also, you know,
some of these platforms that arenot Zoom because they're not so
big, they also don't necessarilyhave the money, potentially, to
invest in additional qualityassurance and maybe bringing on
someone who has digitalaccessibility background, which
(20:31):
I don't think necessarily is anexcuse for them to not
prioritize it. I don't thinkthey're intentionally de
prioritizing it, but they'realso not intentionally
prioritizing it, right?
Elle Billing (20:42):
They're not thinking with a diverse set of
end users in mind.
Teisha Gillespie (20:47):
Yeah, and that's one thing that I've
really tried to, really try toshare more of, and I'm so
thankful there are so manyreally incredible people, like a
person I interviewed on my showa couple years ago, who runs a
digital accessibilityorganization. It's actually
global, but she's located inIndia. But, you know, we talked
(21:08):
a lot about how accessibility,what is good for digital
accessibility and enablingpeople who might use assistive
technology to navigate the weband mobile applications is also
good for everyone. It makeseveryone's life easier. And you
know, we're talking about autocorrect on your cell phone was
(21:30):
initially designed for peoplewho have motor limitations, and
you know, so they don't have totype up the entire word. But
guess what? Auto correction isalso great for people who may
not have been great at spellingwhen they were in school, or,
you know, when you just type tooquickly and you mistype
something. And then captions onvideos were initially designed
(21:53):
for people who were deaf or hardof hearing. But guess what? It's
also great for everyone. Andeven it's also probably great,
you know, I know, at least formy partner, who has ADHD, having
captions on sometimes means thathe has to not rewind as much to
go back and catch something thathe might have missed if he was
only relying on audio. And it'salso true for the physical world
(22:15):
as well. Like if you think abouta ramp, which people often think
of, it's just for people who arein wheelchairs. But guess what?
It's also great for a parent whomight be pushing a stroller with
a baby. It's also great if youlive in the city and you do, you
know you walked to and from thegrocery store and you have like,
five bags, you may not want towalk up a bunch of steps after
(22:37):
walking a mile to and from thegrocery store, right? So, you
know, I love this other analogytoo. But if accessibility can be
at the beginning of the sentenceand not the period at the end of
the sentence in all situations,I think it would just make the
world better for everyone livingin it.
Elle Billing (22:57):
Yeah, I agree. I definitely agree with that. You
mentioned auto correct andcaptions. I used to work at a
deaf school, and what I noticedis, when my I taught elementary
first and then middle school andhigh school, is that one one of
my students. And of course, thisis like an N-equals-one study,
right? This is, this isanecdata. I had a student who
(23:21):
her-- she started texting me onher mom's phone about third or
fourth grade, and havingpredictive text and auto correct
started to improve her grammarin her writing, because Standard
English grammar is what'sprogrammed into phone
dictionaries. So her textingstarted to become more like
coherently, English and correct,and that started to impact her,
(23:43):
her writing work in class, aswell as a language learner.
Captions, too are good for,yeah, the Deaf and Hard of
Hearing is who they weredesigned for, but it's they're
good language learning tools forEnglish language learners. And
there are, there were ways thatwe could utilize captions to,
like, teach vocabulary andreinforce vocabulary too, with
(24:05):
deaf and hard of hearingstudents. They're just, they're
tools that can be used foreverybody.
Unknown (24:10):
Yeah? I mean, I that that represents the universality
even more. Yeah, multilinguallearners.
Elle Billing (24:17):
So you've addressed a little bit, or
actually quite a bit about thepodcast and how you started it,
because you really wanted toaddress stigma, the stigma
around various embodiments ofdiversity, around various
adversities, because stigma doescome attached to so many of the
intersections that we mayinhabit. You mentioned yours, my
(24:39):
own. I'm disabled, I'mchronically ill, I'm queer, all
of these labels carry weightthat we don't necessarily choose
for ourselves, even if we'reokay with the labels that we
have. So stigma leads to tosilencing, because you've
approached these stigmas andaddressed systemic silencing
like through your podcast byhaving the podcast. Has having
(25:02):
the podcast and meeting allthese people and having all
these interviews and looking atall of these various diversities
and adversities and sort ofbreaking some of those silences,
has it changed the other partsof your life and how you address
those issues?
Teisha Gillespie (25:19):
You know, I not to jump too far ahead of the
interview, but I might kind ofhit on one of the questions that
you have later on. So becauseI've been, you know, I count
myself lucky, firstly, thatthere are people even willing to
sit down and talk to me for one,two, sometimes three hours, but
(25:41):
just to share, like, the depthsof their experiences with me.
And like I said, these are somereally hard conversations. And
there's definitely been timeswhen one or both of the people,
either me and or the otherperson, you know, we get to
tears sometimes. I mean, there,there's some really tough
conversations happening.
Obviously, having had listenedto some of these stories. You
(26:01):
know, I've had my mind change ona few things. Or I think I would
like to say that my mind hasgrown on a few things. But I
think when it comes to engagingwith other people, especially
those who have some of thosedeeply ingrained beliefs on
certain things, andunfortunately, it's, it's
oftentimes folks who are, youknow, of a red mindset. And I
(26:25):
think what's been really helpfulfor me in engaging in these
conversations, because I'm avery black and white person when
it comes to right and wrongethics, any kind of question
about justice or equity, it'sreally easy for me to just get
caught up and get really fierybecause I feel so strongly about
(26:45):
these topics. But I think what'sbeen so helpful about having
this podcast is--It's almost asif I now have this library or
this repertoire of stories andanecdotes that I can go to
instead to help illustrate someof, you know, my points and some
of these beliefs and ideas thatmight be contrary to the person
(27:10):
that I'm talking to. And Ithink, you know, that's that's
the one thing that I love somuch about stories, is that
they're so powerful, they canevoke emotion, they can again,
kind of create this idea thatthere's someone out there who I
can relate to. We talk about thebad side of bias, but there's
also this positive side when itcomes to bias, if you can find a
(27:32):
commonality with someone else,then you're going to become
biased toward them, but in agood way,
Elle Billing (27:39):
yeah
Teisha Gillespie (27:39):
and I think that like being able to actually
talk on like when it comes toconversation, especially around
mental health, because that'sone thing that people can't see.
It's the invisible disabilitythat people can't see. And
there's so many differentcategories. There's still so
much misconception and stigmathat most a lot of mental
(28:00):
health, whether it be anxiety ordepression is just a temporary
state that there's a way tophysically control it, and yes,
there's definitely somebehavioral changes and some
tactics that you can do to maybehelp manage it or lessen it in
the moment. But they're chemicalimbalances, and they are, you
know, oftentimes environmentallycharged as well, and medicine
(28:22):
needs, oftentimes, is the bestremedy for it. And, you know,
being able to kind of go to someof these stories and talk about
how depression or anxiety hasimpacted someone, and maybe even
that, that really sadintersection with suicide or
addiction, you know, I think thepower of human stories, and just
being able to get to someone onthat, you know, get to their
(28:44):
heart, almost, I think, has beenso powerful and has really
helped me be able to, I think,communicate and what is it? It's
ah-- is it? Is it ethos, nopathos? I think, right when
we're talking about rhetoric. Soreally, being able to lean more
so on that pathos versus, youknow, I'm a very like, I said
black and white, so I wouldtypically go to like, the logos
(29:07):
part, which doesn't always sitwell with people. So I will say
that that's that's been reallyhelpful in terms of the way that
I approach, just to actually beable to use some of the stories
that I've heard to be able tocommunicate and hopefully help
change people's minds on certainthings.
Elle Billing (29:24):
Thank you for that. So I mentioned a little
bit ago that I used to work atthe school for the deaf, and it
was, it was a school for thedeaf and blind. I just worked in
the Deaf/Hard of Hearingdepartment. So one of the things
I noticed, and I've noticed overa long period of time, first in
that career as a teacher of thedeaf and hard of hearing, and
now as a disabled person, andlike a once, now that I've seen
(29:47):
it, I can't unsee it. It's thatkind of phenomenon because I've
seen it, and now I know what itlooks like, and now I see it
everywhere. Is the amount ofpaternalism that disabled, deaf,
and blind individuals experiencefrom well-meaning, but largely
uninformed, people who areabled, hearing and/or sighted,
so the people who misunderstandand mean well but end up being
(30:10):
really paternalistic orcondescending. My disability has
an extensive amount of fatiguethat comes with it, and I'm
usually so fatigued in thosesituations that I'm not
especially tactful, or I justdon't address it because I'm too
tired. So I'm curious what, whatyour approach is to addressing
paternalism when it happens toyou as a blind individual.
Teisha Gillespie (30:33):
Hmm, that's a that's a good one. I definitely
can relate to you in terms of,you know, being, I think, more,
maybe not necessarily physicallyfatigued, but more so exhausted
by, and I think you've talkedabout this too, just constantly
having to fight for yourself oradvocate, or constantly having
(30:57):
to re explain things. And itreally does depend. I really try
to, because my sight is limited.
I feel like I have this extrasense where I can, you know, my
partner, you know, I don't knowif you also identify it as
having this two Elle, but mypartner, who is also ADHD, you
(31:18):
know, really relies on hisvibes. And for me, I can
actually feel energy from comingfrom someone you know, whether
it's like positive energy ortoxic energy or maybe it's just
neutral. But I feel like thatmight be kind of similar maybe
(31:39):
to what the vibes are that maybeother people feel. And so if I
get, you know, kind of thattoxic, negative vibe or energy,
I don't necessarily like this,but oftentimes it's, you know, I
don't even bother. I'm not goingto be able to change your mind.
You know, we were engaging this,in this two minute interaction
(32:00):
right now, there's probably nopoint to even doing this, so I
just in that time. You know,that's, that's where we talk
about the intersection betweenstigma and silencing. That's
where I sometimes fall silentand I just, I just go on, and I
try to forget about it. But if Ido feel like there is an
opportunity, especially inplaces where I have a
(32:21):
relationship that's a little bitmore long term, that's where it
I try to do what they say asshowing versus telling. And so
there's a lot of you know,oftentimes where people you
know, even though I'm blind, I'mnot deaf, I'm not mute. People
will talk to other people andask them questions about me,
(32:44):
even though I'm right there,because I can't see you, so I
must not be able to, you know,actually respond to you, that
that what I would say reallygets to me. And so that's one of
the situations, regardless ofthe energy that I'm feeling,
that I will speak up and say,Hey, you can ask me that
question. And by the way, theanswer is, dot, dot, dot. But
(33:04):
then there's kind of just thethe you know, in the workplace,
people maybe not thinking thatyou're able to perform as high
or just do the same types oftasks that other people can do.
And yes, we can do them, butthey do require some
accommodations to level theplaying field, like we were
talking about earlier, screenreaders. That's one way I'm able
(33:25):
to perform in the workplace andhave it be at this the same
level as other people. And so,you know, just being able to
actually do my job, likeliterally show people that I'm
able to do marketing the sameway that you're able to do
marketing. And guess what, I'malso able to perform at a very,
very high level. I my analyticalskills are just as high as
(33:46):
yours. My problem solving skillsare just as high as yours. My
communication skills, bothverbally and written, are just
as high as yours. I just have tolisten to something tell me
everything that's on my computerscreen, versus you being able to
use your eyes to scan thecomputer screen. So, you know, I
feel like, for me, I do feel asif sometimes that I've had to,
(34:10):
quote, unquote, work harder thanother people, because there's
kind of, you know, like the themeasuring stick by which you
know, I'm being judged, at leastfrom my perception. I've never
actually had anyone tell methis, that Oh, Teisha, we're
gonna make you hit this 24 inchhigh stick versus everyone else.
only has to hit like 18 inches.
(34:31):
But again, it's kind of thatvibe or that energy that I feel
from certain people. And so yes,I do feel as if I've had to
perform at a much higher leveland have better metrics than
people, or maybe get somethingdone faster, or just do more
work in less time. And I thinkour that is due to my
disability, sometimes it'sbecause I am in the marketing
(34:51):
field, especially earlier on,there weren't necessarily a lot
of women, and definitely not alot of women of color. And so
it's, you know. You have to dotwice as much in half the time,
almost, and so. But with thatsaid, I've been, regardless of
the motivation behind it, I havebeen able to kind of show people
what a blind person can do inthe workplace, what a blind
(35:14):
person can do in terms ofinteracting in personal
communities, um, and even, Ithink, with my podcast too, I
think I've been able to show,you know, other, not just
sighted people, but even otherblind or low vision people who
may not have role models. Youknow, one thing that I talk a
lot about on my my podcast, thatpeople are probably like, okay,
(35:36):
Teisha, we've heard this so manytimes, is this, you know, we
talk about privilege, andoftentimes, privilege, again,
can have this negativeconnotation, but there is a
positive privilege when it comesto exposure privilege. Some
people have the privilege ofbeing exposed to a very diverse
group of people. You know, somepeople grow up and they're
(35:58):
automatically surrounded bymultiple people with
disabilities or people withdifferent sexual orientations or
gender identities or ethnicbackgrounds, and they just been
so fortunate to grow up in thattype of environment where
there's other people were onlyaround one group of people, like
it's a very homogenouscommunity, and so they don't
know anything else, right? Andso even when it comes to blind
(36:21):
and low vision people, there aresometimes stigmas even within
the community itself, becausethey don't even realize that
there can be something differentabout their lives. I'm sorry. I
feel like I've been blabbing ona little bit, but I do really
try to show people as often, asmuch as I can, versus telling
them, because I do think thatbeing able to actually go out
(36:42):
and do something is oftentimesmore impactful versus just
saying, like you don't yourbelief is wrong, and know that
you know what blind people orwhat low vision people can do is
very different from maybe whatyou're imagining they can do.
Elle Billing (36:58):
Yeah, I get that, all right. I have one question
left, and like you said, youkind of touched on it a little
bit, but I'm going to be like,it's going to be like, a more
like, specific ask and probablya little more precise answer,
since I'm asking it directly.
Sorry, that wasn't a knock. Idon't think you're blabbering at
all. I'm just like, this is likea one type of like, sorry, I'm
(37:19):
having trouble wordsing Today,the question, I like it when you
talk a lot, because you have alot of really good stuff to say.
My point was that this questionis, like, really zeroed in on,
like, one specific thing aboutyour podcast is what I was
trying to say. Oh, okay, what isone true thing that you have
(37:45):
learned from doing your podcast?
Unknown (37:48):
I think there's so many things that I could say here,
some of which I've brieflytouched on throughout this
conversation, because there'sbeen so many and I know this can
be a really tough subject formaybe some people to hear,
especially if you've knownsomeone or maybe you've tried
yourself to take your life fromsuicide. But when it comes to
(38:12):
suicide, one true thing thatI've learned is that there is no
shame in suicide, you know,there, we've talked about kind
of stigma a lot, and you know,one thing that stigma causes is
a lot a lot of personal,internal shame about your
(38:34):
experiences, even experiencesthat you may not have any
control over, and some of thatmight be your predisposition to
depression. Some of it might bethat you unfortunately were born
with the chronic condition ofvertigo, and you live, literally
(38:54):
live every day with a migraine.
And because you're constantlylike, you live every day with a
migraine, and so a lot of thetime you're just spent, and I'm
sure Elle, I know that you'vealso, you also deal with chronic
migraine, and I know you also,you know you, you spend a lot of
time sleeping, which is great. II wish I probably don't sleep
(39:18):
enough. But if you if, for somepeople, if you live in that type
of state, it really can causethis deep seated depression, and
you can think that there's noway out, especially if there are
systems telling you that yourcondition is not an actual
(39:40):
condition, and no, we're notgoing to treat you like everyone
else and maybe give you, youknow, the financial assistance
that you need, or the healthbenefits that you need to find
some way to manage this, evenjust a little bit. I think that
one thing that I really learnedis that the intersection between
(40:00):
shame and suicide is so strong,it really and there's, you know,
a lot of people think that, oh,you know, I've been depressed
before, but I never kill myself.
When it comes to depression, itreally can be this debilitating
(40:22):
experience, and sometimes itmight only last for a few
months, sometimes it can lastfor a couple of years. And I
think the way that if someonedoes end up taking their life by
suicide, there are people,siblings and spouses and friends
that are left behind, and thestigma, in a way, persist and
(40:45):
get, then gets placed upon thefamily members and the friends
that were left behind. It'slike, like they did that. They
left you, they they wereselfish, they were weak.
Elle Billing (40:55):
Yeah, and it's not like that at all.
Teisha Gillespie (40:57):
No, oh my gosh. And it's, you know, I tell
you know, I think a really greatexample that I heard in this
past season is that people reactso differently. If you say, Hey,
I lost my parent to cancerversus I lost my parent to
suicide, it's jarring howdifferent it is, but it does not
change the grief and the angerand the sadness
Elle Billing (41:21):
I've noticed a reframing of the way people talk
about -- like and a lot ofadvocacy circles, particularly
around mental health and suicideprevention. But you know, people
saying someone died fromdepression, like they died of
the disease of depression, likethe depression ended up being
(41:43):
the disease that caused theirdeath. So, like, people
understand that it's not justpeople just don't wake up one
morning and decide to completesuicide. It's like a chronic
disease, and that's just oneincarnation of it.
Unknown (42:01):
And because things like mental health themselves are,
there's still-- we were talkingabout it earlier-- there's still
so much stigma around it. Peopledon't seek help
Elle Billing (42:10):
right now trying to find a therapist anywhere is
difficult. It's difficultbecause that's just compounding
the situation for people who arein mental health crises. Because
I think a lot of therapists andcounselors left the field during
and after COVID Because theywere, I mean, their caseloads
went up, and that was a reallytough time for everybody,
(42:31):
especially the mental healthfield and really all the care
fields, it's really hard to getin and get seen for that kind of
Unknown (42:40):
It's so hard. It's so hard. I've personally been
stuff right now.
looking for a therapist. And Ireally could have used one of
these last six months too. And Ithink that would have been, that
would have, you know, maybe nothave gotten rid of every thing
that I was feeling, but itdefinitely would have helped.
And I think that that's beensomething, you know, I haven't
(43:00):
had a therapist since last, lastOctober, so it's been almost a
year.
Elle Billing (43:05):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think that's
really important, thatconversation about stigma and
shame, people need support andlove and understanding and
compassion, not not that otherstuff.
Unknown (43:20):
Yeah. Yeah, empathy.
Elle Billing (43:23):
Well, thank you for being here. I'm glad we
finally got to sit downtogether.
Teisha Gillespie (43:28):
Thank you so much Elle for having me. I've--
this has been a really, reallygreat conversation, and I hope I
didn't dampen the mood.
Elle Billing (43:36):
Oh no,
Teisha Gillespie (43:37):
going in that direction.
Elle Billing (43:38):
No, not at all. We take the full spectrum here. So
just for a little final blurb,where can people find your
podcast?
Unknown (43:51):
So Not Your Average GOAT. You can find it on all
major podcast platforms. SoSpotify, Apple, YouTube, I
heart, Amazon Music. We're onsocial media at Not Average GOAT
across Meta, also on LinkedIn aswell, if you hang out there,
Elle Billing (44:08):
Great. Once again, thank you so much for being
here.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of Hoorf. To get the
complete show notes and all thelinks mentioned on today's
episode, or to get a fulltranscript of the episode, visit
hoorfpodcast dot com. Join theBlessed Herd of St Winkus. By
(44:30):
signing up for our newsletter,you can get Hoorf episodes
delivered directly to yourinbox. What's more, you get
invitations to our monthlyCoffee and Biscuits chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show,
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that athoorfpodcast.com . If you become
a patron for only $3 a month,you can support the creation of
(44:53):
this podcast, elp pay my editor,and join a community of
caregivers out here just doingour best. Thank you, again for
joining me, Elle Billing, thechronically ill queer femme who
is very tired, on this episodeof Hoorf .Until next time, be
excellent to each other.
Hoorf is hosted by Elle Billing@elleandwink, audio editing by
(45:16):
Ricki Cummings, @rickiep00hmusic composed by Ricki
Cummings. Hoorf is a productionof Elle & Wink Art Studio, LLC,
all rights reserved. Hoorf canbe found on all social media
platforms @hoorfpodcast, at H,O, O, R, F, podcast.
(45:41):
Ricki is a genius, and we'lledit that out.
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