Content note: this episode contains swearing and discussions of sex
Elle hosts Andrew Gurza, three-time guest and disability awareness consultant. Andrew discusses his new book, Notes from a Queer Cripple, set to release on April 21, which explores queer and disabled joy. He shares his journey of writing the book, the challenges of balancing academic and community-based tone, and his hopes for its impact. The conversation highlights the importance of representation and the complexities of disability and sexuality.
Links to connect with Andrew, and all other resource links, are in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elle Billing (00:00):
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf, radical care in the latecapitalist heckscape.
(00:58):
My guest for this episode is arepeat guest, Andrew Gurza. It's
his third time appearing on thepodcast. Andrew is an award
winning disability awarenessconsultant. Andrew uses they and
he pronouns and identifiesproudly as disabled. Their work
has been featured on BBC, CBC,Daily Extra, Gay Times UK,
Huffington Post, The Advocate,Everyday Feminism, Mashable,
(01:18):
out.com and several anthologies.
He was the subject of an awardwinning National Film Board of
Canada documentary Picture This.
Andrew has guested on a numberof podcasts and has spoken all
over the world on sex,disability and what it means to
be a queer cripple. Andrew isalso the host of Disability
After Dark (01:35):
the Podcast Shining a Bright Light on Disability
Stories, which won a CanadianPodcast Award in 2021, was a
Queerty Award nominee and waschosen as an honoree at the 2020
Webby Awards. The Show isavailable on all platforms.
Andrew is the creator of theviral hashtag, disabled people
are hot, and has a new bookcoming out called Notes from a
(01:58):
Queer Cripple. I'm excited tohave Andrew on the podcast again
for the third time, like Imentioned; he is always a
delight and a joy to have behindthe microphone. Welcome back to
Hoorf, Andrew.
No, so before we recordedtoday-- Hi Andrew, by the way,
welcome to--
Andrew Gurza (02:16):
hi,
Elle Billing (02:17):
--Hoorf, you're one of my favorites.
Andrew Gurza (02:18):
Thanks for having me on the coolest named podcast
ever Hoorf, I love it so much.
Elle Billing (02:22):
Thank you. I love having you here.
Andrew Gurza (02:25):
It sounds like hoof, it sounds like a dog
puking. It sounds like so manydifferent things.
Elle Billing (02:32):
So my dog found these new treats. My sister's
dogs left some treats here, andmy dog discovered them and is
obsessed with them, but shehides them in this-- we have,
she has this really furryblanket. And so when they get
stuck to the fur, I have to,like, pull them out, and there's
like, pieces of fuzz on them.
And so then she eats the fuzz,and then she makes the hoorfing
sound, because it's like, stuckin the throat. She's like,
(coughing sound)
Andrew Gurza (02:53):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (02:56):
that wasn't the story I was gonna tell you, the
story I wanted to tell you, butI wanted to hit till I wait till
I hit record. Is this afternoon.
My mom said, so what are youdoing after you eat your soup? I
said, I'm recording an episodeof my podcast. I said, but I'm
not nervous today. Last week, Iwas really nervous about the
person I was recording with. Isaid, but --
Andrew Gurza (03:12):
I saw the person last week I saw, I saw the
graphic on your thing. I said,That's cool,
Elle Billing (03:17):
yeah, but the person I recorded with last week
hasn't, we were still editing.
It's the one that hasn't comeout yet.
Andrew Gurza (03:23):
Okay? It'll be amazing when it comes out. Yeah.
Elle Billing (03:26):
And so I was like, this one is my friend Andrew.
It'll be his third time on thepodcast. I really like recording
with them. We'll probably telldirty stories,
Andrew Gurza (03:38):
diverge everywhere, and
Elle Billing (03:40):
yeah, and just be completely inappropriate. And my
mom, my mom looks at me, and shegoes, Well, you don't want to
alienate your audience.
Andrew Gurza (03:47):
Well, yes.
Elle Billing (03:48):
And I look at her and I go, Well, Mom, you know,
we write a description of everyepisode so people know what--
Andrew Gurza (03:55):
what they're getting
Elle Billing (03:56):
what they're getting. And she's like, What is
your podcast about?It's like mythird season. I've been making
it for three years, and she'sworried I'm going to alienate my
audience without actuallyknowing anything about what I
do. Mom, you know nothing aboutmy podcast.Andrew is a great
guest, and we have a lot of fun.
And
Andrew Gurza (04:16):
few times he was on, yeah,
Elle Billing (04:19):
I'm like, There's a reason I ask Andrew to come
back every season.
Andrew Gurza (04:23):
I love it. I love that I'm a seasonal guest.
Elle Billing (04:25):
Don't want to alienate your audience.
Andrew Gurza (04:27):
Oh, dear,
Elle Billing (04:28):
my audience of queer disabled people,
interviewing a queer disabledguest. Okay, Ma, thanks.
Andrew Gurza (04:37):
What thing can I say right now that'd be the most
alienating? Um
Elle Billing (04:46):
We can't even think of anything
Andrew Gurza (04:47):
???? should be free. I don't know,
Elle Billing (04:53):
free healthcare for everybody, please and thank
you.
Andrew Gurza (04:56):
Free Palestine,
Elle Billing (04:58):
oh, no, I mean, I'm on board with that too.
Like, I don't think it'llalienate anybody, either.
Andrew Gurza (05:04):
That's not Alienation. That's just human
rights,
Elle Billing (05:06):
yeah,
Andrew Gurza (05:10):
um, let's not go down the scare. Let's go to
let's go back to the fun stuff.
Elle Billing (05:14):
I'm like, I like, I actually can't think of
anything that would alienate myaudience, because I know we have
a very dedic-- it's not, it'snot a large audience, but
they're very dedicated.
Andrew Gurza (05:22):
Oh no, you know, you know, I've learned doing
this now, being a being aninfluencer or a podcast or
whatever the hell I do for thelast 15 years, the smaller I
like it so much better, becauseit's a dedicated group of
people. Like, really give a shitabout what you're doing? And
it's not you have all the eyeson you. You just have a few eyes
on you, which is nice.
Elle Billing (05:41):
And it's the ones who are like, Yeah, you're
great. And if you do saysomething or do something that
is, you know, out of integrityor out of alignment, they call
you in gently. And they're like,Hey, I don't think you know what
you actually said. And thenyou're like, oh gosh, I had no
idea. Thank you for letting meknow.
Andrew Gurza (06:02):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And, you know, like
with the following, I have, Ihave a bigger following, and
it's exhausting. I don't, Idon't love that. After that, I'm
like, Ew, I don't want to have abig following. I want to go back
down to like 500 people followme, because that was nice. Now I
have like thousands who followme, and I'm afraid to say stuff
sometimes, because I know thatit's going to be scrutinized and
(06:23):
read over and looked over.
Elle Billing (06:25):
Like, if I spend too much time talking about
poop, people are going to getget tired of it,
Andrew Gurza (06:28):
pretty much. I had somebody the other day who was
like, because I turn off mycomments on Instagram now,
because I just don't, I don'twant a big back and forth. I
like to say my thing and thenrun away. Basically, I say what
I say, and then I hide. So Iturn them off. For a thing, I
made a benign comment aboutsomething, something silly, and
(06:49):
somebody wrote, I left thecomments on because I wanted to
just see what was going to comein. And somebody was like,
turning off your comments iscowardly. And I was like, You're
proving like you're provingexactly my point. Why I turn
them off like
Elle Billing (07:04):
you're not saying anything productive? Why would I
leave them on?
Andrew Gurza (07:07):
Why? You're just gonna yell at me? Why do I so?
The smaller audiences are, Ilike, the better
Elle Billing (07:13):
I have found I save energy on Instagram, one,
by not posting at all, and two,I just stopped using hashtags. I
found out that they don't makeus a lick of difference.
Andrew Gurza (07:23):
They really, don't. They really like,
Elle Billing (07:24):
oh, I don't have to, I don't have to do that. I
can just not do something. Yeah,it's just like, oh!
Andrew Gurza (07:33):
once you let go of like, in the problem with
Instagram is, like, they, theyreally win by the numbers and
the followers and the and all ofthe crap. I wish they would take
off the follower count so thatnobody can see how many people
are following them or are notfollowing them, so that it
didn't become this big, like,popularity contest, nobody
(07:54):
cares. Nobody really cares. Andif they do, like, what are you
doing with your life that youcare this much about a number?
Elle Billing (08:01):
Yeah, it's, I mean, I don't think a lot of
people-- Well I mean, for somepeople, it probably does matter,
because they're getting adrevenue. But
Andrew Gurza (08:07):
yeah, yeah, not for us. We're not making any
money from it. Instagram, if youwant to sponsor us, hey, hey, we
have only a couple thousandfollowers between us, really.
For you guys, listen, I don'tlike meta, I don't like Zuck,
but I'll take Zuck's money. Soif anybody who is on his team
(08:28):
wants to give me, you know,wants to give Elle and I a
couple thousand to, you know,subsist in the Hellfire that
we're living in.
Elle Billing (08:37):
Yeah, for those of us who have, basically have
given up on getting any socialsecurity. Now that what's his
butt has now, they infiltratedthe government and dismantling
it all
Andrew Gurza (08:50):
now that he says, he now that he has 19 year olds
called Big Balls running,running the show. Did you hear
about that?
Elle Billing (08:57):
Yes, yes, I did.
Andrew Gurza (08:58):
Yeah. It's disturbing. It's beyond
reprehensible.
Elle Billing (09:02):
I had friends in college who had embarrassing
screen names too.
Andrew Gurza (09:05):
Listen my screenname in college --
Elle Billing (09:07):
we were also university students. We were not
running the country
Andrew Gurza (09:12):
college. My screen name was, I think it was
FuzzyGrapes, which was like,
Elle Billing (09:18):
basically the same thing, yeah,
Andrew Gurza (09:20):
yeah, yeah.
Basically for, like, hairyballs, yeah, so fine. But I was
22 and I thought it was so coolat 42 that would not be how I
would remember, though,
Elle Billing (09:31):
yeah, no, just, I mean, maybe, I mean on this
podcast, for the sake ofconversation,
Andrew Gurza (09:36):
for the sake of right now, I mean, and because
I'm super queer and I like kinkyshit, yeah, that's down for
that. That's fine, but in myeveryday professional life, no,
no,
Elle Billing (09:47):
there's a time and a place,
Andrew Gurza (09:48):
yeah,
Elle Billing (09:49):
and running the federal government is not it.
Andrew Gurza (09:51):
You know, running the social security sector is
not-- God, when I saw thepicture of that kid, I literally
was like, what???
Elle Billing (09:59):
he's an embryo!
Andrew Gurza (10:01):
yeah. Like, pardon me, is that a Stanley Cup or is
it?
Elle Billing (10:06):
No, no, this is, it's Hydrapeak. I don't know. I
got it at TJ Maxx. My mom got itfor me.
Andrew Gurza (10:12):
Oh, nice. That is the most Midwestern thing I've
ever heard.
Elle Billing (10:15):
TJ Maxx, yeah,
Andrew Gurza (10:16):
I got it at TJ Maxx, Max TJ Maxx.
Elle Billing (10:21):
So at Christmas, my niece got a pack of stickers
that were all things with butts.
Andrew Gurza (10:27):
Amazing.
Elle Billing (10:27):
Oh, she gave me.
You can see it, and I'm gonna
Andrew Gurza (10:27):
Oh yeah,
Elle Billing (10:29):
and then the little clouds also have butts.
describe it for the listeners.
It is a rainbow with a butt.
And she hands it to me, and withlike, kind of a serious but
mischievous look at her, on herin her eyes. She goes, this is
for all the gayness,
Andrew Gurza (10:48):
How old is she? I love her already
Elle Billing (10:50):
She's 12. And I was like, I will treasure this.
And she goes, You better.
Andrew Gurza (10:56):
What a queen like already.
Elle Billing (10:57):
She really is. She really is. I mean, she's very
much into, like, butts andstuff. A couple years ago, for
Christmas, my sister and I gaveher, like, a shiny butt candle
from CTOAN Co. the candlecompany. It's a black, fat,
queer owned company,
Andrew Gurza (11:14):
amazing, send me a link. I want to buy all their
things.
Elle Billing (11:16):
I absolutely will.
I mean, they have booty candles,but they also have, like, really
gorgeous, like fat body art.
Andrew Gurza (11:24):
Well, I need some new art in my place. Actually,
that's I will. I will patronizethem immediately,
Elle Billing (11:29):
so I have their candles all over my bedroom. And
whenever my nieces come over,they're like, we're gonna look
for more bodies. Like, becauseyou you like boobs. I'm like, I
do.
Andrew Gurza (11:42):
There are two things that I hear when you said
that I heard bodies, and mybrain went to true crime,
because you're in the Midwest. Iwas like, Okay, well,
Elle Billing (11:49):
I don't like true crime. My mom does. She actually
is, right now, is watchingForensic Files, and I just
Andrew Gurza (11:58):
weird truth.
Elle Billing (11:59):
Yeah,
Andrew Gurza (12:00):
I can fall asleep to Forensic Files without a
problem. That guy's voice, theoriginal forensic announcer
guy's voice,
Elle Billing (12:07):
oh, this is like, old school, yeah,
Andrew Gurza (12:08):
yeah, the old school guy. Whenever I go
traveling for my for my job, andI go to, I get to stay in a
hotel, the first thing I lookfor is, do they have a channel
that just displays ForensicFiles for like, hours? And there
was one when I went to, like, Iwas in Louisiana a couple years
ago for the Queer as Folkreboot. They asked me to come
down for a few days, so I wentwith and I was very excited
(12:31):
about that, but I was moreexcited to find a hotel that had
the channel that played ForensicFiles from like 10pm until like
2am it was great. That's what
Elle Billing (12:38):
she's doing right now. Yeah, she like, she'll be
looking for something else, andthen be like, Oh, Forensic Files
is on. Mom. Forensic Files isalways on.
Andrew Gurza (12:46):
It really, it's always on. I'm here for it.
Elle Billing (12:50):
And then, like, at some point, at least once a
week, she'll look at me and go,if anything ever happens to me,
it was my ex husband. Like, Mom,you guys have been divorced for
like, 48 years. Like, I don'tthink he's gonna do anything to
you. She goes, she's 70, okay,and her dementia is getting
(13:13):
worse. So she, just afterseveral episodes in a row, she
just gets it in her head that ifsomething happens to her,
because all of these episodesare about husbands who killed
their wives
Andrew Gurza (13:23):
Yeah, of course,
Elle Billing (13:25):
like Mom, he's not gonna do anything to you, but if
he does, I'll know where tolook. There's nothing I can say.
Andrew Gurza (13:32):
Yeah, no, of course.
Elle Billing (13:34):
So, so this was a fun chat,
Andrew Gurza (13:38):
a great preamble.
Elle Billing (13:39):
It is, we, do this every time.
Andrew Gurza (13:41):
Yeah, we go on for like 20 minutes about nothing,
and then we get to the realstuff. So it's fine.
Elle Billing (13:45):
Yeah, so how have you received care this week,
Andrew?
Andrew Gurza (13:49):
well, I receive care all day today, from getting
up to getting in my chair toshowering to having dinner just
an hour ago. I've received caredaily,
Elle Billing (14:05):
yeah
Andrew Gurza (14:05):
like, I get it every day.
Elle Billing (14:08):
What was for dinner today?
Andrew Gurza (14:10):
Um, I'm on a diet right now, so I'm trying to fast
for dinner. So I do likebreakfast and lunch and then for
dinner I don't eat because I'mtrying to lower my cholesterol
naturally. I'm trying to belike, My doctor was like, your
cholesterol is too high. Andthey were like, first they were
like, change your whole dietaround. I was like, No, so talk
to my friend--
Elle Billing (14:30):
like, I like food.
Thanks.
Andrew Gurza (14:32):
Not doing that. I talked to my friend who was
like, who had lost 100 pounds ina year, and I said, What are you
doing? He was like, Well, everycouple days I fast, so I I will
have breakfast and lunch full ofprotein and full of, like, all
the things you need. And thenfor dinner, if I want to, I'll
have something, and if I don'twant to have something, I'll
(14:52):
just have, like, a one of thosemeal replacement drinks that has
enough protein and you're okay,and that's I've lost a bit of
weight. So I filled. Good aboutthat's what I have for dinner. I
had that and a cup of yogurt,and then that was dinner. Oh,
Elle Billing (15:05):
all right. So, like, Is that called considered
intermittent fasting?
Andrew Gurza (15:09):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (15:10):
okay, I can't do that. I get I have to eat
regularly, or I get hangry, or Iget a migraine. So, like, I have
a colonoscopy next month, and--
Andrew Gurza (15:19):
your first one?
Elle Billing (15:22):
it is, they're doing both ends, actually,
they're doing anendoscopy/colonoscopy. Roast me
on a spit,
Andrew Gurza (15:31):
I've had both ends.
Elle Billing (15:31):
Yeah, I've had an endoscopy before, but I've never
had a colonoscopy, and I'm like,not eating for that long, Is
like, I know, I know I need acolonoscopy, but I also, like,
if I don't eat, I get amigraine.
Andrew Gurza (15:46):
You'll be thankful, because once you take
the pill or whatever solutionthey give you--
Elle Billing (15:50):
I won't want to eat.
Andrew Gurza (15:51):
You'll just be shitting for hours and hours.
You'll be like, you willprobably-- real talk: you'll
probably shit the bed.
Elle Billing (16:00):
Awesome. Thank you.
Andrew Gurza (16:01):
Get ready for that, because I certainly did. I
was on the toilet from --when Idid mine three years ago. I took
the pill at 4pm on the toiletand started going almost
immediately, and then didn'tstop going until 2am and my
colonoscopy was at 8am
Elle Billing (16:18):
I can do that if I eat the wrong food.
Andrew Gurza (16:22):
But this actually feels good, because it literally
is getting everything that's
Elle Billing (16:26):
yeah
Andrew Gurza (16:27):
ever been in you out. When you're sick, it
doesn't get all of it out. Itjust gets whatever the worst
part is,
Elle Billing (16:32):
yeah, like the oops, I'm accidentally allergic
to this now,
Andrew Gurza (16:35):
yeah,
Elle Billing (16:36):
okay, I'll keep that in mind.
Andrew Gurza (16:39):
Prepare yourself.
Elle Billing (16:40):
I'll sleep in the bathroom.
Andrew Gurza (16:41):
Yeah, that's actually not a bad idea. Or just
get diapers. I mean, I mean,there, there are a lot
Elle Billing (16:48):
We have those here,
Andrew Gurza (16:49):
yeah, yeah, you'll be fine.
Elle Billing (16:51):
I don't have anybody to impress, no, even if
I did, I don't care.
Andrew Gurza (16:56):
Why should they?
Why should you? Because it'scolonoscopy, you're taking care
of your gut health, which nobody
Elle Billing (17:01):
Exactly? Yeah, seriously, gut health is
important, and mine has not beenhealthy for a long time. So
Andrew Gurza (17:09):
Mine neither.
Although I cheated yesterday, Ihad chicken and fries and I
wasn't supposed to, but I waslike, You know what? I'm really
hungry, so
Elle Billing (17:18):
you just gotta eat what you gotta eat.
Andrew Gurza (17:20):
Sometimes it's just gonna break all the rules.
Elle Billing (17:24):
Yeah. I mean, YOLO, right?
Andrew Gurza (17:27):
It is YOLO, it is,
Elle Billing (17:29):
it is, and then the reason that you only live
once is because you eatsomething and end up in the
hospital
Andrew Gurza (17:34):
and then it hurts you. So, yeah, the last time I
did that was this summer. I had,I had my fourth bowel
obstruction. And when I gotthere, they were, yeah, no, I
woke up at 2am throwing up likebile. And they were like, I got
the hospital. And they werelike, oh, yeah, this is pretty
common. You'll be fine. And Iwas like, it should not, you
should not be saying thingslike, it's common, don't worry
(17:55):
about it. You should be saying,let's fix it right away.
Elle Billing (17:59):
Yeah, that's scary. So you wrote a book.
Andrew Gurza (18:04):
I wrote a book.
Elle Billing (18:05):
I'm so excited for your book. When does it come
out?
Andrew Gurza (18:07):
April 21
Elle Billing (18:10):
so tell me everything. Tell me everything
about the book.
Andrew Gurza (18:12):
Okay, it's called Notes from a Queer Cripple
to Cultivate Queer Disabled Joyand Be Hot While Doing It by me
with my name on it, cool,amazing. And it's basically, if
you took all my tweets about sexand disability and turn them
into long form essays, that'swhat the book is. And so
(18:33):
basically, like, I was not neverexpecting to get a book deal,
never expected to write a book,and always wanted to, but I was
like, I'm gonna wait untilsomebody approaches me and then
I'm, and I want to sign a deal.
Like, everybody's like, Oh, selfpublish. And I was like, I don't
want to do that. No, no, I want.
I want to be the Beyonce here,and I want somebody to approach
me and say, You should write abook. And so one day, I got a
(18:56):
tweet that's like, from apublisher, that's like, Hey, I
read your tweets all the time.
They're really good. Would youwant to sit down and have a
book, have a chat about a book?
And I went, Sure, okay. And so Iput off a meeting for like two
weeks. I was way too nervous.
And I was like, I don't know.
And so finally I sat down withmy with my editor, Alex, and he
(19:17):
was like, I love your tweets. Ithink there's something in
disability and sexuality, youcould write, we're looking for
disabled authors to write aboutsexuality. You're like, a key
voice here. Would you considerwriting a book? And I was like,
Okay, sure. Like, tell me more.
And they were like, Well, okay,like, write us an outline, and
then we'll take it to our teamand we'll pitch it. And so I
(19:37):
wrote. I spent like, a monthwriting a proper outline and
tried to make it really, likeacademic and really, like deep.
And they were like, this is verynice, but what if he made it
more community based? And sothey were like, like, strip out
all the academics out. That'snice, but just talk to people.
Like, keep talking to tweets.
(19:59):
Yes, and so I really had to,like, refine it, to be this, to
be like this guide, but alsoaccessible to a wider audience.
And that was hard for me,because I'm used to writing,
like, either something reallypithy or really deep academic
piece. To do something inbetween was hard. And also, I'm
(20:22):
a huge procrastinator. So like,for the first year, I didn't for
the first year, and they gave mea year to write it. The first
year, I was like, oh, no, Ican't do this. And then I got
COVID in the middle of all that.
So I emailed them and said,Look, can I have one more year
to do it because I'm just notwell, I need to be okay. And
they were like, all right, sure,take time. So then finally, I
(20:45):
got my ass into gear. And everyday I would just, every day, I
would just be like, how thelike, I would look at the blank
page and be like, how am Isupposed to turn this tweet into
it into, like, a whole book?
What? So then, like, the storiesthat I tell all the time, that I
(21:06):
have told numerous times, justcame to me and finding ways to
craft that and turn that intosomething accessible was really
fun.
Elle Billing (21:13):
That's awesome.
I'm so excited to read it.
Andrew Gurza (21:16):
I am excited for to be on the world. I've been
I've been living with it and andthinking about it and worrying
about it and stressing about itfor like, like, I started this
journey in '22 so basically,three years. Yeah, if I'm ready
for it to just be out, I want tosee what it's gonna do. I want
(21:36):
to see, if you know, I'd love towrite a second book, like, I
want to see where it's going totake my career now,
Elle Billing (21:42):
yeah, I think people who aren't in the
creative fields, so like art,like visual art, writing, any of
those, they don't realize howlong it takes us to, like,
incubate these things.
Andrew Gurza (21:54):
Oh, yeah, I've been wanting to write. I've been
wanting to write a book likethis for a very long time, but I
was very naive in how, how bookwriting works. I thought, you
know, they're gonna give me abig advance. I'm gonna get all
this money, I'm gonna be, youknow, a star, because I've
written a book, and everybodywas like, No man, we've written
books too, and we're still, youknow, doing what we do, cash
(22:16):
poor, looking for, you know,opportunities. So it was
humbling. It's getting when itget released, it will be
humbling to see like yes, itwill go far, and in some circles
and in other circles, it won'tbe touched. And so learning to
temper my expectations of likethis won't turn you into this
big celebrity you think it'sgonna turn you into. You just
have to keep doing the work. Butwhat I hope is that like this
(22:38):
will because, given the state ofthe world we're in right now,
even before Trump got electedagain, you know, getting
speaking gigs or jobs doing whatI do was hard, so my hope is,
with a book in hand, I can sayI'm a published author now, I
can now charge a much higherrate than I would normally
(23:00):
charge to do a talk to a schoolor an organization, because I
have a physical, tangible bookthat I can promote. And so I'm
hopeful that that will lead tobigger opportunities. I hope
that, like another publisher,will come along and say, Hey, we
read this. We'd love to, youknow, ask you to write XYZ or
(23:21):
whatever it is, yeah. So I hopethat it, I hope that it brings
me more business and opportunityto thrive.
Elle Billing (23:28):
Yeah, that'll be awesome. Are you gonna do an
audiobook of it?
Andrew Gurza (23:32):
They haven't said anything about that. I think
they want to just see how, what,how it goes, that I haven't
approached because I'm like, Ijust want to see how the actual
release goes. And they prettymuch, because they're a small
publishing house, like theypretty much said, You're doing
all of the promo yourself. So,like, I'm just waiting for them
(23:55):
to send me a copy of the bookthat I can hold in my hand, and
then, you know, take a bunch ofpictures and do a bunch of
proper press and, like, yeah,push it out as far as I can,
which is, you know, I don't minddoing like, but because I,
because I do that already for myday job, but I find that part to
be annoying. Like, I would lovefor them to have said, here's 20
(24:17):
grand. What do you want to do topromote the book? Or here's like
30k What do you want to dopromote the book?
Elle Billing (24:24):
Yeah, that's why Ricki and I are releasing
together her book length poemand my paintings at the same
time. And she chose to selfpublish because, especially in
poetry, she actually did have abook that was more traditionally
published, but she, like thepublisher, did one tweet or,
(24:44):
like, one Instagram post, andthat was it.
Andrew Gurza (24:46):
One tweet.
Elle Billing (24:47):
It wasn't a tweet, it was an Instagram post. The
publisher did one Instagram post
Andrew Gurza (24:52):
that is
Elle Billing (24:53):
One. and Ricki, and Ricki had to do all of the
other-- all the pre sales camefrom Ricki. Hit, like, hounding
people to pre order, because it,in order to get it onto Amazon,
there had to be a certain numberof pre sales through the
publisher,
Andrew Gurza (25:11):
yeah
Elle Billing (25:11):
then it would be big enough to hit, get to, like,
Andrew Gurza (25:12):
yeah, like, it's the, like, my book is the book
that I've written, is theirbook? Like,
all of that came from Ricki, andRicki can't even get back the
rights to it, but it's trying tobuy back,
Elle Billing (25:26):
yep
Andrew Gurza (25:27):
and I'm fully aware of that. I'm okay with it,
because I've, you know, you,that's the deal you make. But
there's this misconception thatwhen you sign a book deal, you
you know money's coming in, andthat's just not the reality of
Elle Billing (25:39):
sell enough copies to get royalties, even like,
Andrew Gurza (25:43):
and so like, I, you know, and I don't expect
that it will do big, bignumbers. I hope it will, but I
realistically, like, I know itwill only probably, probably do
a couple thousand if we'relucky. But you know, I also know
that it will lead to biggerthings. I'm glad that it's out
there, and I, now I can chargewhat I've been wanting to charge
(26:05):
for my talks for years, whichis, like, you know, eight grand
and 10 grand, which I alwaysfelt like an imposter trying to
do before because I didn't haveanything. Now that I have a
book, I can say, like, I had youI need real money now. Like,
here's a-- which sounds bougie,but like, you know, being
disabled is fucking expensive,
Elle Billing (26:26):
yeah, just, I mean, non disabled people are
now, like, experiencing, like,grocery crunch, like, how
expensive? And, yeah, we'veknown the price of eggs, right?
But, um, but, like you and Ihave kind of specialized diets,
and so, like, we've been dealingwith the price of groceries for
(26:47):
a minute,
Andrew Gurza (26:48):
yeah, unless we do, like, what I like to do, and
then break my diet entirely andjust like, oh yeah, I hate I ate
that chicken now I'll just dieforever. Yeah?
Elle Billing (26:57):
So, but chicken brings you joy, which brings me
to my next question. It does onepart of the subtitle of your
book is about queer, disabledjoy.
Andrew Gurza (27:06):
Yes.
Elle Billing (27:07):
And last year, when I had you on the podcast,
we talked about something veryheavy. And if anybody wants to
go back and listen to that, theycan; we talked about medically
assisted suicide.
Andrew Gurza (27:19):
Oh, yeah, we did.
Elle Billing (27:22):
So this year we're, it's not quite that
heavy. Joy, I mean
Andrew Gurza (27:29):
joy is a precious commodity right now.
Elle Billing (27:31):
It is a precious commodity right now, and I think
it's something really importantto talk about in light of what
we're going through right now.
So what tell me about queer,disabled joy, and what sparks
joy for you. And how do you usejoy as part of your like, daily,
as part of your daily life?
Andrew Gurza (27:52):
I get joy in talking about the hard shit. I
like to talk about, like, whatabout disability grief? About
disability like, I like to, Ilike to put it out there, to
tell that story and to tell theside of disability that isn't so
like, when we talk aboutdisability, especially in media
depictions, there's twodepictions. There's you're the
(28:13):
hero or you're the sad villain.
And I'm like, let's talk aboutthe in between. What if you're
stuck in between both of thoseworlds and you're just a person.
Elle Billing (28:21):
The secret third thing, yeah.
Andrew Gurza (28:23):
Like, what about that? And so bringing me, what
brings me joy is talking aboutthe reality for real, real life,
yeah. You know, get, hiring asex worker brings me joy. You
know, being able to have my mybody, touched in a way that I
want to with somebody that Itrust and know through sex work
(28:44):
brings me joy, like there's butalso sometimes just doing
nothing brings me joy, likesometimes, like, did we talk
last time about my 230 naps?
Elle Billing (28:53):
I don't think so.
But I also take a two o'clock
Andrew Gurza (28:56):
like every day, around two to 30, I will finish
nap,my lunch. The attendant's left,
I have no more care. I'm alonefinally, and I just tilt my
chair back. I put on some kidsTV, and I literally just go to
sleep for an hour. And it is socalming because I'm not stuck in
a bed that I can't get out of. Ican easily tilt my chair back
(29:16):
down and go do something, butit's my hour to just be in my
body and be do whatever I want,and that's kind of nice, and so
like little moments like thatbring me joy.
Elle Billing (29:30):
Yeah, my nap time brings me joy, because my dog is
excited about it.
Andrew Gurza (29:36):
Napping with you.
Elle Billing (29:37):
Yes, she loves nap time. She like, if I sign bed,
like her eyes like shestarts towiggle, and she runs up the
stairs, and she turns around tolook at me and wait for me to
walk up the stairs, and herlittle butt wiggles, and her
tails goin', and she's like, ohyeah, nap time! And then she
(29:58):
runs to my bedroom, and she hopsup in the bed, like, oh yeah,
let's nap. And then she waitsfor me to get, like, laid down,
and then she kind of like, tucksme in a little bit, and then she
curls up behind my knees. Thenwe take a nap.
Andrew Gurza (30:11):
I love this for you, yes.
Elle Billing (30:14):
And if I don't take my nap, if I'm like, hyper
focused on painting, and it getsto be about four o'clock in the
afternoon, she starts to whineand, like, pester and get really
obnoxious. And I'm like, Okay,fine, I'll go take it
Andrew Gurza (30:28):
like, What the hell is?
Elle Billing (30:29):
She's like, Excuse me, Mother
Andrew Gurza (30:31):
You didn't pay attention to the clearly set
schedule we have,
Elle Billing (30:36):
yeah, and that's, that's why my-- plus the fact I
love napping, but like, my naptime has that, that joy element
added to it too, because Ireally, my dog is just always so
excited about it.
Andrew Gurza (30:45):
It is my favorite to just to we're talking about,
we're talking about napping, andI'm totally having a snooze, but
to put on a show and just like,rest your head and to not think
about ableism, all the stuffthat you would worry about as a
disabled person, like to justlet go feels nice.
Elle Billing (31:09):
I like that.
Andrew Gurza (31:11):
So yeah, all those things bring me joy, and how do
I cultivate it? I just that. Imean, it's hard, and so that's
part of why I wrote the book,because I don't fucking know how
to cultivate joy in thesemoments. Sometimes I don't
really know how to talk aboutbeing queer, disabled and
finding joy all the time,because sometimes that
experience is not fuckingjoyful. It's pretty
Elle Billing (31:33):
Oh yeah, like when we're in pain, it is hard to be
joyful,
Andrew Gurza (31:37):
yeah, or when somebody you think is really
cute rejects you because ableismor, you know, and so the book is
me talking a lot about thoseexperiences and being it's the
book is very explicit, notexplicit, but like it goes into
my, my sex life in a fun,humorous way that I think other
(31:59):
books about disability andsexuality, haven't yet, and I
don't think there's a book likemine out there, like I remember
the publisher read. One of thereaders read the book in a day,
and they wrote back, they sentme an email back and said, Wow,
you've taken a topic that is soscary to talk about and made it
like, digestible and comfy toread. And I, they're like, I
(32:19):
read it in one sitting, and itwas great. And I was like, Wow,
that's awesome. So to know like,and that brings me joy to know
that my experience as a severelydisabled person will be out
there in the world for someonefor like, a younger generation.
It was like, 2022 trying to finda version of themselves, like
they'll pop into their bookstoreand be like, where's this book
(32:42):
on my experience? And thenthere'll be my book. That's that
knowing that'll bring me joy,
Elle Billing (32:48):
that's that's so important. When I worked in K 12
education, I had a colleague whowas talking to I worked at a
special school. It was a schoolfor the Deaf and the Blind, and
we also had severely disabledstudents who had multiple
disabilities, who were part ofour student body. And one of my
(33:12):
colleagues at one point when wewere discussing, oh, well, first
off, our health teacher one yearjust didn't teach the sex ed
unit.
Andrew Gurza (33:20):
Just didn't
Elle Billing (33:20):
he just didn't teach it. He skipped it. And we
had kids who thought like, wehad a student who thought she
couldn't get pregnant if she hadsex standing up. And I was like,
oh my god, yeah, among otherlike, erroneous misconceptions
that the students had aboutabout sex and sexuality. I had a
(33:42):
student asked me in class onetime, what boy bisexuals were
called? And I'm like, they're,they're bisexual. And she goes,
No, but like, the boy ones,
Andrew Gurza (33:51):
they're Chad,
Elle Billing (33:53):
I'm like, No, it's the same thing,
Andrew Gurza (33:55):
or Jeremy, Josh, yeah.
Elle Billing (33:58):
But, like, yeah, they have, but I mean, like, the
word the label is the same.
Andrew Gurza (34:05):
Like, still, it's Chad, yeah, if you are really
wondering if you want to, like,it's Chad, Josh too, for sure,
for sure, Josh sometimes Joshua,if you want to be fancy. But
Elle Billing (34:20):
I think I knew a bisexual Joshua
Andrew Gurza (34:22):
I know a few of them actually, so, yeah, so, and
Elle Billing (34:25):
I was like, Oh no, it's bisexual. And she's like,
No, but like the boy ones. Itwas like, Oh, okay. Oh, you
sweet. But I had a colleague whoher approach to Sex Ed was just
to scare kids away from havingsex.
Andrew Gurza (34:44):
That doesn't work,
Elle Billing (34:45):
and if she made the comment, well, it was too
late for some of them, but shewas hoping she could, like, we
could get to some of the otherkids before they started having
sex. I'm like, that's not ahealthy approach. Like
Andrew Gurza (34:59):
No.
Elle Billing (35:02):
and something I noticed about working with kids
with varying degrees ofdisability is just this, and
you've probably experienced thistoo, and why, one of the reasons
why your book is so important,is that people with, I think,
more severe disabilities get putagain. There's like, we're
either or this or this, and mostpeople are actually in the
(35:23):
middle, is that people areeither hyper sexualized and
treated as like, not in controlof their urges,
Andrew Gurza (35:31):
yeah,
Elle Billing (35:32):
or they're desexualized completely and
treated as like, non sexualentities.
Andrew Gurza (35:38):
I mean, we see that a lot with our we don't see
it a lot, but it's perceived alot with people with Down
syndrome,
Elle Billing (35:45):
yes
Andrew Gurza (35:46):
are perceived as super hyper sexual. And I
remember being--
Elle Billing (35:49):
or, or completely asexual,
Andrew Gurza (35:52):
yeah,
Elle Billing (35:52):
like to the point of being a non sexual entity,
not asexual, and as, like, the,the orientation, but like, as
being a non sexual entity, like,
Andrew Gurza (36:06):
yeah
Elle Billing (36:06):
like they are in like, they're incapable of
understanding or being partofthat world.
Andrew Gurza (36:11):
And that's why we have 31 states that still allow
legal sterilization,sterilization of disabled,
disabled people, and a lot ofthem have have intellectual
disability, and that's shameful,
Elle Billing (36:26):
right? And really, as we know as queer people,
sexuality is a spectrum, andmost people fall somewhere in
the middle.
Andrew Gurza (36:37):
Most people are like on the Ace-spec spectrum
somewhere.
Elle Billing (36:42):
Well, I mean, not even on the Acespec spectrum,
but, like just disabled, I mean,sexuality is a spectrum as a
very general statement. So itwould make sense that, like most
disabled people, are alsosomewhere on the spectrum of
sexuality. Like we're nothypersexual and we're not non
(37:03):
sexual entities, the way peoplevery ableistly categorize
disabled people.
Andrew Gurza (37:09):
and very binary too. Like, that's such a binary
of like, one or the other
Elle Billing (37:13):
it is, it is and fuck binaries.
Andrew Gurza (37:19):
I sometimes like fucking binaries, though it
could be wrong,
Elle Billing (37:21):
okay, but the other way,
Andrew Gurza (37:26):
I like a good binary, though sometimes it's
really enjoyable,
Elle Billing (37:30):
yeah, yeah, okay, but you know what I mean, I got
you, yeah, yeah. So I'm reallyglad you wrote the book.
Andrew Gurza (37:37):
I'm also really glad I wrote it, because it's
out now, and it's cool to, like,it was cool to get emails from
the editor that was like, Okay,we're done now. Like, you
finished, you wrote, it's in.
It's like, prep for production.
Like, that was cool. And Iremember sending the first
chapter off to the editor beingso afraid of what he was gonna
(38:00):
think. Because I really, like,we had talked for hours and
hours, and I valued his opinionso much, and he was the one who
sought me out, and, like, foundme on Twitter, and was like,
please write a book. And so Iwas so worried he would hate it,
and his first email back to mewas, this is why I knew you
should write the book. And I waslike, Oh, wow. It made me feel
(38:21):
so confident to keep going andlike, it's not a long book, it's
only 142 pages. So it's a quickread, but it took, like, a year
and a bit to
Elle Billing (38:35):
Oh yeah. That says nothing about the process
getting there.
Andrew Gurza (38:39):
Oh no, the process took forever,
Elle Billing (38:44):
so I'm gonna I have one more question.
Andrew Gurza (38:49):
I'm ready.
Elle Billing (38:50):
Okay, what is one true thing that you learned from
writing your book?
Andrew Gurza (38:55):
that sometimes the stories aren't always as you
remember them, and you have tosit with that. Sometimes there
are stories in the book thatwere really hard for me to to
write, and once I put them onpaper, I could let them go. You
want me to elaborate on thatmore?
Elle Billing (39:14):
Yeah, if you would,
Andrew Gurza (39:15):
your face is saying, Tell me more.
Elle Billing (39:17):
I'm not, yeah. I was just like, I was, I was
sitting with that actually forjust a second, like, oh yeah,
but yes, I would love it if youcould elaborate on that.
Andrew Gurza (39:25):
I mean, there's just a lot of stuff in there,
like my first time that I talkabout stories that I told over
and over and over again, and Iprobably will continue to tell
over and over and over again.
But now that it's on the page, Idon't have to constantly bring
it up. I can say, read my bookon page 22 I talk about this
story.
Elle Billing (39:46):
It has a more it has a more perm-- It has some
permanence to it, yeah,
Andrew Gurza (39:49):
and I mean it also the thing I learned is that I
don't always want to write aboutsex and disability and queerness
and disability, like there's ahuge part of me now that I've
written the book that wants todo another book on severely
disabled people period the end,and write a whole different kind
of book about that experiencethat isn't just this book was
(40:14):
very focused in the narrative.
What they wanted, they wanted meto speak solely about queerness
and disability, and that was thebrief. And I did that. Now, like
for a bigger publisher to say,Hey, you want to write, what
does being severely disabledmean? Tell me that write a whole
bunch of stuff, or go findstories from other people who
(40:35):
are severely disabled and putthat in a book. Like, I'd love
to do something bigger and a bitmore outside of myself, and a
bit more like,
Elle Billing (40:50):
yeah,
Andrew Gurza (40:51):
academic events, because I'd like to do something
a bit deeper than the AndrewGurza story. Because I feel like
I've been as proud as I am ofthe book, and I'm so excited for
it, but I've also been tellingthese stories in my job for 15
years, so they don't feel freshto me. And that was one of the
things that I found that Istruggled doing when I was
(41:11):
running it. How do I make thesestories fun again? Like, how do
I make these stories that I'vetold a million times and like so
many different platforms, how doI make them, like, fresh? And
that was, that was a challenge,
Elle Billing (41:26):
yeah? And it doesn't need to just be the
Andrew Gurza story anymore. Nowit can be and friends,
Andrew Gurza (41:32):
yeah, like, now that parts are there's other
parts of my identity like that Iwant to explore, and I've
started using severely disabledin the past year and a half. And
people don't, a lot of disabledpeople don't like when I use
that term. I get pushed back alot for that terminology. I've
lost disabled friends becauseI've used that term for myself.
(41:53):
And so I'd love to explore thetension that that brings in up
in people, and why, and whatdoes that mean when you live
that experience, and why do youdo it? And so I don't know if
there's a book there, but I feellike there could be.
Elle Billing (42:07):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting and
important conversation. Ihaven't been part of that
conversation with you, but Ihave seen that and similar
conversations around kind of thedisability social mediaworld
about, like, functioning labelsand severity labels and things
like that, and
Andrew Gurza (42:27):
and like, that's part of why I turn off all the
comments, because I don't wantto have, I don't want to spend
my afternoon fighting aboutsemantics with you. I think we
have bigger stuff to worryabout, and the bigger stuff we
have to worry about right now islike, Medicaid being taken away,
Medicare being taken away, SSIbeing gutted. Like we have
bigger things to worry about,
Elle Billing (42:46):
disabled Black kids being taken away from their
families and being sent toreeducation farms like stuff we
thought was done 100 years ago,
Andrew Gurza (42:54):
like autistic people being put onto a farm to
-- like what? no
Elle Billing (43:00):
anti anti vaxxers shouldn't be in charge of health
Andrew Gurza (43:03):
But to move it away from all that for a minute.
care.
Um, so very excited about thebook. If you go on Amazon right
now, you can pre order it.
Elle Billing (43:14):
So what was the title?
Andrew Gurza (43:15):
Again, Notes from a Queer Cripple
Cultivate Queer Disabled Joy andBe Hot While Doing It by me
Andrew Gurza. And if you'relooking for the title and you
can't find it, it's blue andpink is the cover with a bunch
of balloons for the queercripple part of the title. And
then, like,
Elle Billing (43:33):
it's a great cover.
Andrew Gurza (43:35):
I was really,
Elle Billing (43:36):
I'll link it in the show notes.
Andrew Gurza (43:38):
I was really impressed with the cover. I had
no hand in the cover. They justshowed me that. And I was like,
okay, great, Yep, good,
Elle Billing (43:46):
yeah, so I will link that. I will link your
socials. It was good to talk toyou again.
Andrew Gurza (43:54):
Always a pleasure.
Elle Billing (43:56):
Yeah. Thanks for being here.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of Hoorf. to get the
complete show notes and all thelinks mentioned on today's
episode, or to get a fulltranscript of the episode, visit
Hoorf podcast dot com Join theBlessed Herd of St Winkus. By
(44:17):
signing up for our newsletter,you can get Hoorf episodes
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patron for only $3 a month, youcan support the creation of this
(44:40):
podcast, help pay my editor ,andjoin a community of caregivers
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing the chronically ill
queer femme who is very tired onthis episode of Hoorf! Until
next time, be excellent to eachother. Hoorf is hosted by Elle
Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings
(45:02):
@rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio LLC, all rights reserved.
Hoorf can be found on all socialmedia platforms. @hoorfpodcast
at H, O, O, R, F. Podcast.
Andrew Gurza (45:26):
that doesn't work.
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf, radical care in the latecapitalist heckscape.
(00:58):
My guest for this episode is arepeat guest, Andrew Gurza. It's
his third time appearing on thepodcast. Andrew is an award
winning disability awarenessconsultant. Andrew uses they and
he pronouns and identifiesproudly as disabled. Their work
has been featured on BBC, CBC,Daily Extra, Gay Times UK,
Huffington Post, The Advocate,Everyday Feminism, Mashable,
(01:18):
out.com and several anthologies.
He was the subject of an awardwinning National Film Board of
Canada documentary Picture This.
Andrew has guested on a numberof podcasts and has spoken all
over the world on sex,disability and what it means to
be a queer cripple. Andrew isalso the host of Disability
After Dark (01:35):
the Podcast Shining a Bright Light on Disability
Stories, which won a CanadianPodcast Award in 2021, was a
Queerty Award nominee and waschosen as an honoree at the 2020
Webby Awards. The Show isavailable on all platforms.
Andrew is the creator of theviral hashtag, disabled people
are hot, and has a new bookcoming out called Notes from a
(01:58):
Queer Cripple. I'm excited tohave Andrew on the podcast again
for the third time, like Imentioned; he is always a
delight and a joy to have behindthe microphone. Welcome back to
Hoorf, Andrew.
No, so before we recordedtoday-- Hi Andrew, by the way,
welcome to--
Andrew Gurza (02:16):
hi,
Elle Billing (02:17):
--Hoorf, you're one of my favorites.
Andrew Gurza (02:18):
Thanks for having me on the coolest named podcast
ever Hoorf, I love it so much.
Elle Billing (02:22):
Thank you. I love having you here.
Andrew Gurza (02:25):
It sounds like hoof, it sounds like a dog
puking. It sounds like so manydifferent things.
Elle Billing (02:32):
So my dog found these new treats. My sister's
dogs left some treats here, andmy dog discovered them and is
obsessed with them, but shehides them in this-- we have,
she has this really furryblanket. And so when they get
stuck to the fur, I have to,like, pull them out, and there's
like, pieces of fuzz on them.
And so then she eats the fuzz,and then she makes the hoorfing
sound, because it's like, stuckin the throat. She's like,
(coughing sound)
Andrew Gurza (02:53):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (02:56):
that wasn't the story I was gonna tell you, the
story I wanted to tell you, butI wanted to hit till I wait till
I hit record. Is this afternoon.
My mom said, so what are youdoing after you eat your soup? I
said, I'm recording an episodeof my podcast. I said, but I'm
not nervous today. Last week, Iwas really nervous about the
person I was recording with. Isaid, but --
Andrew Gurza (03:12):
I saw the person last week I saw, I saw the
graphic on your thing. I said,That's cool,
Elle Billing (03:17):
yeah, but the person I recorded with last week
hasn't, we were still editing.
It's the one that hasn't comeout yet.
Andrew Gurza (03:23):
Okay? It'll be amazing when it comes out. Yeah.
Elle Billing (03:26):
And so I was like, this one is my friend Andrew.
It'll be his third time on thepodcast. I really like recording
with them. We'll probably telldirty stories,
Andrew Gurza (03:38):
diverge everywhere, and
Elle Billing (03:40):
yeah, and just be completely inappropriate. And my
mom, my mom looks at me, and shegoes, Well, you don't want to
alienate your audience.
Andrew Gurza (03:47):
Well, yes.
Elle Billing (03:48):
And I look at her and I go, Well, Mom, you know,
we write a description of everyepisode so people know what--
Andrew Gurza (03:55):
what they're getting
Elle Billing (03:56):
what they're getting. And she's like, What is
your podcast about?It's like mythird season. I've been making
it for three years, and she'sworried I'm going to alienate my
audience without actuallyknowing anything about what I
do. Mom, you know nothing aboutmy podcast.Andrew is a great
guest, and we have a lot of fun.
And
Andrew Gurza (04:16):
few times he was on, yeah,
Elle Billing (04:19):
I'm like, There's a reason I ask Andrew to come
back every season.
Andrew Gurza (04:23):
I love it. I love that I'm a seasonal guest.
Elle Billing (04:25):
Don't want to alienate your audience.
Andrew Gurza (04:27):
Oh, dear,
Elle Billing (04:28):
my audience of queer disabled people,
interviewing a queer disabledguest. Okay, Ma, thanks.
Andrew Gurza (04:37):
What thing can I say right now that'd be the most
alienating? Um
Elle Billing (04:46):
We can't even think of anything
Andrew Gurza (04:47):
???? should be free. I don't know,
Elle Billing (04:53):
free healthcare for everybody, please and thank
you.
Andrew Gurza (04:56):
Free Palestine,
Elle Billing (04:58):
oh, no, I mean, I'm on board with that too.
Like, I don't think it'llalienate anybody, either.
Andrew Gurza (05:04):
That's not Alienation. That's just human
rights,
Elle Billing (05:06):
yeah,
Andrew Gurza (05:10):
um, let's not go down the scare. Let's go to
let's go back to the fun stuff.
Elle Billing (05:14):
I'm like, I like, I actually can't think of
anything that would alienate myaudience, because I know we have
a very dedic-- it's not, it'snot a large audience, but
they're very dedicated.
Andrew Gurza (05:22):
Oh no, you know, you know, I've learned doing
this now, being a being aninfluencer or a podcast or
whatever the hell I do for thelast 15 years, the smaller I
like it so much better, becauseit's a dedicated group of
people. Like, really give a shitabout what you're doing? And
it's not you have all the eyeson you. You just have a few eyes
on you, which is nice.
Elle Billing (05:41):
And it's the ones who are like, Yeah, you're
great. And if you do saysomething or do something that
is, you know, out of integrityor out of alignment, they call
you in gently. And they're like,Hey, I don't think you know what
you actually said. And thenyou're like, oh gosh, I had no
idea. Thank you for letting meknow.
Andrew Gurza (06:02):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And, you know, like
with the following, I have, Ihave a bigger following, and
it's exhausting. I don't, Idon't love that. After that, I'm
like, Ew, I don't want to have abig following. I want to go back
down to like 500 people followme, because that was nice. Now I
have like thousands who followme, and I'm afraid to say stuff
sometimes, because I know thatit's going to be scrutinized and
(06:23):
read over and looked over.
Elle Billing (06:25):
Like, if I spend too much time talking about
poop, people are going to getget tired of it,
Andrew Gurza (06:28):
pretty much. I had somebody the other day who was
like, because I turn off mycomments on Instagram now,
because I just don't, I don'twant a big back and forth. I
like to say my thing and thenrun away. Basically, I say what
I say, and then I hide. So Iturn them off. For a thing, I
made a benign comment aboutsomething, something silly, and
(06:49):
somebody wrote, I left thecomments on because I wanted to
just see what was going to comein. And somebody was like,
turning off your comments iscowardly. And I was like, You're
proving like you're provingexactly my point. Why I turn
them off like
Elle Billing (07:04):
you're not saying anything productive? Why would I
leave them on?
Andrew Gurza (07:07):
Why? You're just gonna yell at me? Why do I so?
The smaller audiences are, Ilike, the better
Elle Billing (07:13):
I have found I save energy on Instagram, one,
by not posting at all, and two,I just stopped using hashtags. I
found out that they don't makeus a lick of difference.
Andrew Gurza (07:23):
They really, don't. They really like,
Elle Billing (07:24):
oh, I don't have to, I don't have to do that. I
can just not do something. Yeah,it's just like, oh!
Andrew Gurza (07:33):
once you let go of like, in the problem with
Instagram is, like, they, theyreally win by the numbers and
the followers and the and all ofthe crap. I wish they would take
off the follower count so thatnobody can see how many people
are following them or are notfollowing them, so that it
didn't become this big, like,popularity contest, nobody
(07:54):
cares. Nobody really cares. Andif they do, like, what are you
doing with your life that youcare this much about a number?
Elle Billing (08:01):
Yeah, it's, I mean, I don't think a lot of
people-- Well I mean, for somepeople, it probably does matter,
because they're getting adrevenue. But
Andrew Gurza (08:07):
yeah, yeah, not for us. We're not making any
money from it. Instagram, if youwant to sponsor us, hey, hey, we
have only a couple thousandfollowers between us, really.
For you guys, listen, I don'tlike meta, I don't like Zuck,
but I'll take Zuck's money. Soif anybody who is on his team
(08:28):
wants to give me, you know,wants to give Elle and I a
couple thousand to, you know,subsist in the Hellfire that
we're living in.
Elle Billing (08:37):
Yeah, for those of us who have, basically have
given up on getting any socialsecurity. Now that what's his
butt has now, they infiltratedthe government and dismantling
it all
Andrew Gurza (08:50):
now that he says, he now that he has 19 year olds
called Big Balls running,running the show. Did you hear
about that?
Elle Billing (08:57):
Yes, yes, I did.
Andrew Gurza (08:58):
Yeah. It's disturbing. It's beyond
reprehensible.
Elle Billing (09:02):
I had friends in college who had embarrassing
screen names too.
Andrew Gurza (09:05):
Listen my screenname in college --
Elle Billing (09:07):
we were also university students. We were not
running the country
Andrew Gurza (09:12):
college. My screen name was, I think it was
FuzzyGrapes, which was like,
Elle Billing (09:18):
basically the same thing, yeah,
Andrew Gurza (09:20):
yeah, yeah.
Basically for, like, hairyballs, yeah, so fine. But I was
22 and I thought it was so coolat 42 that would not be how I
would remember, though,
Elle Billing (09:31):
yeah, no, just, I mean, maybe, I mean on this
podcast, for the sake ofconversation,
Andrew Gurza (09:36):
for the sake of right now, I mean, and because
I'm super queer and I like kinkyshit, yeah, that's down for
that. That's fine, but in myeveryday professional life, no,
no,
Elle Billing (09:47):
there's a time and a place,
Andrew Gurza (09:48):
yeah,
Elle Billing (09:49):
and running the federal government is not it.
Andrew Gurza (09:51):
You know, running the social security sector is
not-- God, when I saw thepicture of that kid, I literally
was like, what???
Elle Billing (09:59):
he's an embryo!
Andrew Gurza (10:01):
yeah. Like, pardon me, is that a Stanley Cup or is
it?
Elle Billing (10:06):
No, no, this is, it's Hydrapeak. I don't know. I
got it at TJ Maxx. My mom got itfor me.
Andrew Gurza (10:12):
Oh, nice. That is the most Midwestern thing I've
ever heard.
Elle Billing (10:15):
TJ Maxx, yeah,
Andrew Gurza (10:16):
I got it at TJ Maxx, Max TJ Maxx.
Elle Billing (10:21):
So at Christmas, my niece got a pack of stickers
that were all things with butts.
Andrew Gurza (10:27):
Amazing.
Elle Billing (10:27):
Oh, she gave me.
You can see it, and I'm gonna
Andrew Gurza (10:27):
Oh yeah,
Elle Billing (10:29):
and then the little clouds also have butts.
describe it for the listeners.
It is a rainbow with a butt.
And she hands it to me, and withlike, kind of a serious but
mischievous look at her, on herin her eyes. She goes, this is
for all the gayness,
Andrew Gurza (10:48):
How old is she? I love her already
Elle Billing (10:50):
She's 12. And I was like, I will treasure this.
And she goes, You better.
Andrew Gurza (10:56):
What a queen like already.
Elle Billing (10:57):
She really is. She really is. I mean, she's very
much into, like, butts andstuff. A couple years ago, for
Christmas, my sister and I gaveher, like, a shiny butt candle
from CTOAN Co. the candlecompany. It's a black, fat,
queer owned company,
Andrew Gurza (11:14):
amazing, send me a link. I want to buy all their
things.
Elle Billing (11:16):
I absolutely will.
I mean, they have booty candles,but they also have, like, really
gorgeous, like fat body art.
Andrew Gurza (11:24):
Well, I need some new art in my place. Actually,
that's I will. I will patronizethem immediately,
Elle Billing (11:29):
so I have their candles all over my bedroom. And
whenever my nieces come over,they're like, we're gonna look
for more bodies. Like, becauseyou you like boobs. I'm like, I
do.
Andrew Gurza (11:42):
There are two things that I hear when you said
that I heard bodies, and mybrain went to true crime,
because you're in the Midwest. Iwas like, Okay, well,
Elle Billing (11:49):
I don't like true crime. My mom does. She actually
is, right now, is watchingForensic Files, and I just
Andrew Gurza (11:58):
weird truth.
Elle Billing (11:59):
Yeah,
Andrew Gurza (12:00):
I can fall asleep to Forensic Files without a
problem. That guy's voice, theoriginal forensic announcer
guy's voice,
Elle Billing (12:07):
oh, this is like, old school, yeah,
Andrew Gurza (12:08):
yeah, the old school guy. Whenever I go
traveling for my for my job, andI go to, I get to stay in a
hotel, the first thing I lookfor is, do they have a channel
that just displays ForensicFiles for like, hours? And there
was one when I went to, like, Iwas in Louisiana a couple years
ago for the Queer as Folkreboot. They asked me to come
down for a few days, so I wentwith and I was very excited
(12:31):
about that, but I was moreexcited to find a hotel that had
the channel that played ForensicFiles from like 10pm until like
2am it was great. That's what
Elle Billing (12:38):
she's doing right now. Yeah, she like, she'll be
looking for something else, andthen be like, Oh, Forensic Files
is on. Mom. Forensic Files isalways on.
Andrew Gurza (12:46):
It really, it's always on. I'm here for it.
Elle Billing (12:50):
And then, like, at some point, at least once a
week, she'll look at me and go,if anything ever happens to me,
it was my ex husband. Like, Mom,you guys have been divorced for
like, 48 years. Like, I don'tthink he's gonna do anything to
you. She goes, she's 70, okay,and her dementia is getting
(13:13):
worse. So she, just afterseveral episodes in a row, she
just gets it in her head that ifsomething happens to her,
because all of these episodesare about husbands who killed
their wives
Andrew Gurza (13:23):
Yeah, of course,
Elle Billing (13:25):
like Mom, he's not gonna do anything to you, but if
he does, I'll know where tolook. There's nothing I can say.
Andrew Gurza (13:32):
Yeah, no, of course.
Elle Billing (13:34):
So, so this was a fun chat,
Andrew Gurza (13:38):
a great preamble.
Elle Billing (13:39):
It is, we, do this every time.
Andrew Gurza (13:41):
Yeah, we go on for like 20 minutes about nothing,
and then we get to the realstuff. So it's fine.
Elle Billing (13:45):
Yeah, so how have you received care this week,
Andrew?
Andrew Gurza (13:49):
well, I receive care all day today, from getting
up to getting in my chair toshowering to having dinner just
an hour ago. I've received caredaily,
Elle Billing (14:05):
yeah
Andrew Gurza (14:05):
like, I get it every day.
Elle Billing (14:08):
What was for dinner today?
Andrew Gurza (14:10):
Um, I'm on a diet right now, so I'm trying to fast
for dinner. So I do likebreakfast and lunch and then for
dinner I don't eat because I'mtrying to lower my cholesterol
naturally. I'm trying to belike, My doctor was like, your
cholesterol is too high. Andthey were like, first they were
like, change your whole dietaround. I was like, No, so talk
to my friend--
Elle Billing (14:30):
like, I like food.
Thanks.
Andrew Gurza (14:32):
Not doing that. I talked to my friend who was
like, who had lost 100 pounds ina year, and I said, What are you
doing? He was like, Well, everycouple days I fast, so I I will
have breakfast and lunch full ofprotein and full of, like, all
the things you need. And thenfor dinner, if I want to, I'll
have something, and if I don'twant to have something, I'll
(14:52):
just have, like, a one of thosemeal replacement drinks that has
enough protein and you're okay,and that's I've lost a bit of
weight. So I filled. Good aboutthat's what I have for dinner. I
had that and a cup of yogurt,and then that was dinner. Oh,
Elle Billing (15:05):
all right. So, like, Is that called considered
intermittent fasting?
Andrew Gurza (15:09):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (15:10):
okay, I can't do that. I get I have to eat
regularly, or I get hangry, or Iget a migraine. So, like, I have
a colonoscopy next month, and--
Andrew Gurza (15:19):
your first one?
Elle Billing (15:22):
it is, they're doing both ends, actually,
they're doing anendoscopy/colonoscopy. Roast me
on a spit,
Andrew Gurza (15:31):
I've had both ends.
Elle Billing (15:31):
Yeah, I've had an endoscopy before, but I've never
had a colonoscopy, and I'm like,not eating for that long, Is
like, I know, I know I need acolonoscopy, but I also, like,
if I don't eat, I get amigraine.
Andrew Gurza (15:46):
You'll be thankful, because once you take
the pill or whatever solutionthey give you--
Elle Billing (15:50):
I won't want to eat.
Andrew Gurza (15:51):
You'll just be shitting for hours and hours.
You'll be like, you willprobably-- real talk: you'll
probably shit the bed.
Elle Billing (16:00):
Awesome. Thank you.
Andrew Gurza (16:01):
Get ready for that, because I certainly did. I
was on the toilet from --when Idid mine three years ago. I took
the pill at 4pm on the toiletand started going almost
immediately, and then didn'tstop going until 2am and my
colonoscopy was at 8am
Elle Billing (16:18):
I can do that if I eat the wrong food.
Andrew Gurza (16:22):
But this actually feels good, because it literally
is getting everything that's
Elle Billing (16:26):
yeah
Andrew Gurza (16:27):
ever been in you out. When you're sick, it
doesn't get all of it out. Itjust gets whatever the worst
part is,
Elle Billing (16:32):
yeah, like the oops, I'm accidentally allergic
to this now,
Andrew Gurza (16:35):
yeah,
Elle Billing (16:36):
okay, I'll keep that in mind.
Andrew Gurza (16:39):
Prepare yourself.
Elle Billing (16:40):
I'll sleep in the bathroom.
Andrew Gurza (16:41):
Yeah, that's actually not a bad idea. Or just
get diapers. I mean, I mean,there, there are a lot
Elle Billing (16:48):
We have those here,
Andrew Gurza (16:49):
yeah, yeah, you'll be fine.
Elle Billing (16:51):
I don't have anybody to impress, no, even if
I did, I don't care.
Andrew Gurza (16:56):
Why should they?
Why should you? Because it'scolonoscopy, you're taking care
of your gut health, which nobody
Elle Billing (17:01):
Exactly? Yeah, seriously, gut health is
important, and mine has not beenhealthy for a long time. So
Andrew Gurza (17:09):
Mine neither.
Although I cheated yesterday, Ihad chicken and fries and I
wasn't supposed to, but I waslike, You know what? I'm really
hungry, so
Elle Billing (17:18):
you just gotta eat what you gotta eat.
Andrew Gurza (17:20):
Sometimes it's just gonna break all the rules.
Elle Billing (17:24):
Yeah. I mean, YOLO, right?
Andrew Gurza (17:27):
It is YOLO, it is,
Elle Billing (17:29):
it is, and then the reason that you only live
once is because you eatsomething and end up in the
hospital
Andrew Gurza (17:34):
and then it hurts you. So, yeah, the last time I
did that was this summer. I had,I had my fourth bowel
obstruction. And when I gotthere, they were, yeah, no, I
woke up at 2am throwing up likebile. And they were like, I got
the hospital. And they werelike, oh, yeah, this is pretty
common. You'll be fine. And Iwas like, it should not, you
should not be saying thingslike, it's common, don't worry
(17:55):
about it. You should be saying,let's fix it right away.
Elle Billing (17:59):
Yeah, that's scary. So you wrote a book.
Andrew Gurza (18:04):
I wrote a book.
Elle Billing (18:05):
I'm so excited for your book. When does it come
out?
Andrew Gurza (18:07):
April 21
Elle Billing (18:10):
so tell me everything. Tell me everything
about the book.
Andrew Gurza (18:12):
Okay, it's called Notes from a Queer Cripple
to Cultivate Queer Disabled Joyand Be Hot While Doing It by me
with my name on it, cool,amazing. And it's basically, if
you took all my tweets about sexand disability and turn them
into long form essays, that'swhat the book is. And so
(18:33):
basically, like, I was not neverexpecting to get a book deal,
never expected to write a book,and always wanted to, but I was
like, I'm gonna wait untilsomebody approaches me and then
I'm, and I want to sign a deal.
Like, everybody's like, Oh, selfpublish. And I was like, I don't
want to do that. No, no, I want.
I want to be the Beyonce here,and I want somebody to approach
me and say, You should write abook. And so one day, I got a
(18:56):
tweet that's like, from apublisher, that's like, Hey, I
read your tweets all the time.
They're really good. Would youwant to sit down and have a
book, have a chat about a book?
And I went, Sure, okay. And so Iput off a meeting for like two
weeks. I was way too nervous.
And I was like, I don't know.
And so finally I sat down withmy with my editor, Alex, and he
(19:17):
was like, I love your tweets. Ithink there's something in
disability and sexuality, youcould write, we're looking for
disabled authors to write aboutsexuality. You're like, a key
voice here. Would you considerwriting a book? And I was like,
Okay, sure. Like, tell me more.
And they were like, Well, okay,like, write us an outline, and
then we'll take it to our teamand we'll pitch it. And so I
(19:37):
wrote. I spent like, a monthwriting a proper outline and
tried to make it really, likeacademic and really, like deep.
And they were like, this is verynice, but what if he made it
more community based? And sothey were like, like, strip out
all the academics out. That'snice, but just talk to people.
Like, keep talking to tweets.
(19:59):
Yes, and so I really had to,like, refine it, to be this, to
be like this guide, but alsoaccessible to a wider audience.
And that was hard for me,because I'm used to writing,
like, either something reallypithy or really deep academic
piece. To do something inbetween was hard. And also, I'm
(20:22):
a huge procrastinator. So like,for the first year, I didn't for
the first year, and they gave mea year to write it. The first
year, I was like, oh, no, Ican't do this. And then I got
COVID in the middle of all that.
So I emailed them and said,Look, can I have one more year
to do it because I'm just notwell, I need to be okay. And
they were like, all right, sure,take time. So then finally, I
(20:45):
got my ass into gear. And everyday I would just, every day, I
would just be like, how thelike, I would look at the blank
page and be like, how am Isupposed to turn this tweet into
it into, like, a whole book?
What? So then, like, the storiesthat I tell all the time, that I
(21:06):
have told numerous times, justcame to me and finding ways to
craft that and turn that intosomething accessible was really
fun.
Elle Billing (21:13):
That's awesome.
I'm so excited to read it.
Andrew Gurza (21:16):
I am excited for to be on the world. I've been
I've been living with it and andthinking about it and worrying
about it and stressing about itfor like, like, I started this
journey in '22 so basically,three years. Yeah, if I'm ready
for it to just be out, I want tosee what it's gonna do. I want
(21:36):
to see, if you know, I'd love towrite a second book, like, I
want to see where it's going totake my career now,
Elle Billing (21:42):
yeah, I think people who aren't in the
creative fields, so like art,like visual art, writing, any of
those, they don't realize howlong it takes us to, like,
incubate these things.
Andrew Gurza (21:54):
Oh, yeah, I've been wanting to write. I've been
wanting to write a book likethis for a very long time, but I
was very naive in how, how bookwriting works. I thought, you
know, they're gonna give me abig advance. I'm gonna get all
this money, I'm gonna be, youknow, a star, because I've
written a book, and everybodywas like, No man, we've written
books too, and we're still, youknow, doing what we do, cash
(22:16):
poor, looking for, you know,opportunities. So it was
humbling. It's getting when itget released, it will be
humbling to see like yes, itwill go far, and in some circles
and in other circles, it won'tbe touched. And so learning to
temper my expectations of likethis won't turn you into this
big celebrity you think it'sgonna turn you into. You just
have to keep doing the work. Butwhat I hope is that like this
(22:38):
will because, given the state ofthe world we're in right now,
even before Trump got electedagain, you know, getting
speaking gigs or jobs doing whatI do was hard, so my hope is,
with a book in hand, I can sayI'm a published author now, I
can now charge a much higherrate than I would normally
(23:00):
charge to do a talk to a schoolor an organization, because I
have a physical, tangible bookthat I can promote. And so I'm
hopeful that that will lead tobigger opportunities. I hope
that, like another publisher,will come along and say, Hey, we
read this. We'd love to, youknow, ask you to write XYZ or
(23:21):
whatever it is, yeah. So I hopethat it, I hope that it brings
me more business and opportunityto thrive.
Elle Billing (23:28):
Yeah, that'll be awesome. Are you gonna do an
audiobook of it?
Andrew Gurza (23:32):
They haven't said anything about that. I think
they want to just see how, what,how it goes, that I haven't
approached because I'm like, Ijust want to see how the actual
release goes. And they prettymuch, because they're a small
publishing house, like theypretty much said, You're doing
all of the promo yourself. So,like, I'm just waiting for them
(23:55):
to send me a copy of the bookthat I can hold in my hand, and
then, you know, take a bunch ofpictures and do a bunch of
proper press and, like, yeah,push it out as far as I can,
which is, you know, I don't minddoing like, but because I,
because I do that already for myday job, but I find that part to
be annoying. Like, I would lovefor them to have said, here's 20
(24:17):
grand. What do you want to do topromote the book? Or here's like
30k What do you want to dopromote the book?
Elle Billing (24:24):
Yeah, that's why Ricki and I are releasing
together her book length poemand my paintings at the same
time. And she chose to selfpublish because, especially in
poetry, she actually did have abook that was more traditionally
published, but she, like thepublisher, did one tweet or,
(24:44):
like, one Instagram post, andthat was it.
Andrew Gurza (24:46):
One tweet.
Elle Billing (24:47):
It wasn't a tweet, it was an Instagram post. The
publisher did one Instagram post
Andrew Gurza (24:52):
that is
Elle Billing (24:53):
One. and Ricki, and Ricki had to do all of the
other-- all the pre sales camefrom Ricki. Hit, like, hounding
people to pre order, because it,in order to get it onto Amazon,
there had to be a certain numberof pre sales through the
publisher,
Andrew Gurza (25:11):
yeah
Elle Billing (25:11):
then it would be big enough to hit, get to, like,
Andrew Gurza (25:12):
yeah, like, it's the, like, my book is the book
that I've written, is theirbook? Like,
all of that came from Ricki, andRicki can't even get back the
rights to it, but it's trying tobuy back,
Elle Billing (25:26):
yep
Andrew Gurza (25:27):
and I'm fully aware of that. I'm okay with it,
because I've, you know, you,that's the deal you make. But
there's this misconception thatwhen you sign a book deal, you
you know money's coming in, andthat's just not the reality of
Elle Billing (25:39):
sell enough copies to get royalties, even like,
Andrew Gurza (25:43):
and so like, I, you know, and I don't expect
that it will do big, bignumbers. I hope it will, but I
realistically, like, I know itwill only probably, probably do
a couple thousand if we'relucky. But you know, I also know
that it will lead to biggerthings. I'm glad that it's out
there, and I, now I can chargewhat I've been wanting to charge
(26:05):
for my talks for years, whichis, like, you know, eight grand
and 10 grand, which I alwaysfelt like an imposter trying to
do before because I didn't haveanything. Now that I have a
book, I can say, like, I had youI need real money now. Like,
here's a-- which sounds bougie,but like, you know, being
disabled is fucking expensive,
Elle Billing (26:26):
yeah, just, I mean, non disabled people are
now, like, experiencing, like,grocery crunch, like, how
expensive? And, yeah, we'veknown the price of eggs, right?
But, um, but, like you and Ihave kind of specialized diets,
and so, like, we've been dealingwith the price of groceries for
(26:47):
a minute,
Andrew Gurza (26:48):
yeah, unless we do, like, what I like to do, and
then break my diet entirely andjust like, oh yeah, I hate I ate
that chicken now I'll just dieforever. Yeah?
Elle Billing (26:57):
So, but chicken brings you joy, which brings me
to my next question. It does onepart of the subtitle of your
book is about queer, disabledjoy.
Andrew Gurza (27:06):
Yes.
Elle Billing (27:07):
And last year, when I had you on the podcast,
we talked about something veryheavy. And if anybody wants to
go back and listen to that, theycan; we talked about medically
assisted suicide.
Andrew Gurza (27:19):
Oh, yeah, we did.
Elle Billing (27:22):
So this year we're, it's not quite that
heavy. Joy, I mean
Andrew Gurza (27:29):
joy is a precious commodity right now.
Elle Billing (27:31):
It is a precious commodity right now, and I think
it's something really importantto talk about in light of what
we're going through right now.
So what tell me about queer,disabled joy, and what sparks
joy for you. And how do you usejoy as part of your like, daily,
as part of your daily life?
Andrew Gurza (27:52):
I get joy in talking about the hard shit. I
like to talk about, like, whatabout disability grief? About
disability like, I like to, Ilike to put it out there, to
tell that story and to tell theside of disability that isn't so
like, when we talk aboutdisability, especially in media
depictions, there's twodepictions. There's you're the
(28:13):
hero or you're the sad villain.
And I'm like, let's talk aboutthe in between. What if you're
stuck in between both of thoseworlds and you're just a person.
Elle Billing (28:21):
The secret third thing, yeah.
Andrew Gurza (28:23):
Like, what about that? And so bringing me, what
brings me joy is talking aboutthe reality for real, real life,
yeah. You know, get, hiring asex worker brings me joy. You
know, being able to have my mybody, touched in a way that I
want to with somebody that Itrust and know through sex work
(28:44):
brings me joy, like there's butalso sometimes just doing
nothing brings me joy, likesometimes, like, did we talk
last time about my 230 naps?
Elle Billing (28:53):
I don't think so.
But I also take a two o'clock
Andrew Gurza (28:56):
like every day, around two to 30, I will finish
nap,my lunch. The attendant's left,
I have no more care. I'm alonefinally, and I just tilt my
chair back. I put on some kidsTV, and I literally just go to
sleep for an hour. And it is socalming because I'm not stuck in
a bed that I can't get out of. Ican easily tilt my chair back
(29:16):
down and go do something, butit's my hour to just be in my
body and be do whatever I want,and that's kind of nice, and so
like little moments like thatbring me joy.
Elle Billing (29:30):
Yeah, my nap time brings me joy, because my dog is
excited about it.
Andrew Gurza (29:36):
Napping with you.
Elle Billing (29:37):
Yes, she loves nap time. She like, if I sign bed,
like her eyes like shestarts towiggle, and she runs up the
stairs, and she turns around tolook at me and wait for me to
walk up the stairs, and herlittle butt wiggles, and her
tails goin', and she's like, ohyeah, nap time! And then she
(29:58):
runs to my bedroom, and she hopsup in the bed, like, oh yeah,
let's nap. And then she waitsfor me to get, like, laid down,
and then she kind of like, tucksme in a little bit, and then she
curls up behind my knees. Thenwe take a nap.
Andrew Gurza (30:11):
I love this for you, yes.
Elle Billing (30:14):
And if I don't take my nap, if I'm like, hyper
focused on painting, and it getsto be about four o'clock in the
afternoon, she starts to whineand, like, pester and get really
obnoxious. And I'm like, Okay,fine, I'll go take it
Andrew Gurza (30:28):
like, What the hell is?
Elle Billing (30:29):
She's like, Excuse me, Mother
Andrew Gurza (30:31):
You didn't pay attention to the clearly set
schedule we have,
Elle Billing (30:36):
yeah, and that's, that's why my-- plus the fact I
love napping, but like, my naptime has that, that joy element
added to it too, because Ireally, my dog is just always so
excited about it.
Andrew Gurza (30:45):
It is my favorite to just to we're talking about,
we're talking about napping, andI'm totally having a snooze, but
to put on a show and just like,rest your head and to not think
about ableism, all the stuffthat you would worry about as a
disabled person, like to justlet go feels nice.
Elle Billing (31:09):
I like that.
Andrew Gurza (31:11):
So yeah, all those things bring me joy, and how do
I cultivate it? I just that. Imean, it's hard, and so that's
part of why I wrote the book,because I don't fucking know how
to cultivate joy in thesemoments. Sometimes I don't
really know how to talk aboutbeing queer, disabled and
finding joy all the time,because sometimes that
experience is not fuckingjoyful. It's pretty
Elle Billing (31:33):
Oh yeah, like when we're in pain, it is hard to be
joyful,
Andrew Gurza (31:37):
yeah, or when somebody you think is really
cute rejects you because ableismor, you know, and so the book is
me talking a lot about thoseexperiences and being it's the
book is very explicit, notexplicit, but like it goes into
my, my sex life in a fun,humorous way that I think other
(31:59):
books about disability andsexuality, haven't yet, and I
don't think there's a book likemine out there, like I remember
the publisher read. One of thereaders read the book in a day,
and they wrote back, they sentme an email back and said, Wow,
you've taken a topic that is soscary to talk about and made it
like, digestible and comfy toread. And I, they're like, I
(32:19):
read it in one sitting, and itwas great. And I was like, Wow,
that's awesome. So to know like,and that brings me joy to know
that my experience as a severelydisabled person will be out
there in the world for someonefor like, a younger generation.
It was like, 2022 trying to finda version of themselves, like
they'll pop into their bookstoreand be like, where's this book
(32:42):
on my experience? And thenthere'll be my book. That's that
knowing that'll bring me joy,
Elle Billing (32:48):
that's that's so important. When I worked in K 12
education, I had a colleague whowas talking to I worked at a
special school. It was a schoolfor the Deaf and the Blind, and
we also had severely disabledstudents who had multiple
disabilities, who were part ofour student body. And one of my
(33:12):
colleagues at one point when wewere discussing, oh, well, first
off, our health teacher one yearjust didn't teach the sex ed
unit.
Andrew Gurza (33:20):
Just didn't
Elle Billing (33:20):
he just didn't teach it. He skipped it. And we
had kids who thought like, wehad a student who thought she
couldn't get pregnant if she hadsex standing up. And I was like,
oh my god, yeah, among otherlike, erroneous misconceptions
that the students had aboutabout sex and sexuality. I had a
(33:42):
student asked me in class onetime, what boy bisexuals were
called? And I'm like, they're,they're bisexual. And she goes,
No, but like, the boy ones,
Andrew Gurza (33:51):
they're Chad,
Elle Billing (33:53):
I'm like, No, it's the same thing,
Andrew Gurza (33:55):
or Jeremy, Josh, yeah.
Elle Billing (33:58):
But, like, yeah, they have, but I mean, like, the
word the label is the same.
Andrew Gurza (34:05):
Like, still, it's Chad, yeah, if you are really
wondering if you want to, like,it's Chad, Josh too, for sure,
for sure, Josh sometimes Joshua,if you want to be fancy. But
Elle Billing (34:20):
I think I knew a bisexual Joshua
Andrew Gurza (34:22):
I know a few of them actually, so, yeah, so, and
Elle Billing (34:25):
I was like, Oh no, it's bisexual. And she's like,
No, but like the boy ones. Itwas like, Oh, okay. Oh, you
sweet. But I had a colleague whoher approach to Sex Ed was just
to scare kids away from havingsex.
Andrew Gurza (34:44):
That doesn't work,
Elle Billing (34:45):
and if she made the comment, well, it was too
late for some of them, but shewas hoping she could, like, we
could get to some of the otherkids before they started having
sex. I'm like, that's not ahealthy approach. Like
Andrew Gurza (34:59):
No.
Elle Billing (35:02):
and something I noticed about working with kids
with varying degrees ofdisability is just this, and
you've probably experienced thistoo, and why, one of the reasons
why your book is so important,is that people with, I think,
more severe disabilities get putagain. There's like, we're
either or this or this, and mostpeople are actually in the
(35:23):
middle, is that people areeither hyper sexualized and
treated as like, not in controlof their urges,
Andrew Gurza (35:31):
yeah,
Elle Billing (35:32):
or they're desexualized completely and
treated as like, non sexualentities.
Andrew Gurza (35:38):
I mean, we see that a lot with our we don't see
it a lot, but it's perceived alot with people with Down
syndrome,
Elle Billing (35:45):
yes
Andrew Gurza (35:46):
are perceived as super hyper sexual. And I
remember being--
Elle Billing (35:49):
or, or completely asexual,
Andrew Gurza (35:52):
yeah,
Elle Billing (35:52):
like to the point of being a non sexual entity,
not asexual, and as, like, the,the orientation, but like, as
being a non sexual entity, like,
Andrew Gurza (36:06):
yeah
Elle Billing (36:06):
like they are in like, they're incapable of
understanding or being partofthat world.
Andrew Gurza (36:11):
And that's why we have 31 states that still allow
legal sterilization,sterilization of disabled,
disabled people, and a lot ofthem have have intellectual
disability, and that's shameful,
Elle Billing (36:26):
right? And really, as we know as queer people,
sexuality is a spectrum, andmost people fall somewhere in
the middle.
Andrew Gurza (36:37):
Most people are like on the Ace-spec spectrum
somewhere.
Elle Billing (36:42):
Well, I mean, not even on the Acespec spectrum,
but, like just disabled, I mean,sexuality is a spectrum as a
very general statement. So itwould make sense that, like most
disabled people, are alsosomewhere on the spectrum of
sexuality. Like we're nothypersexual and we're not non
(37:03):
sexual entities, the way peoplevery ableistly categorize
disabled people.
Andrew Gurza (37:09):
and very binary too. Like, that's such a binary
of like, one or the other
Elle Billing (37:13):
it is, it is and fuck binaries.
Andrew Gurza (37:19):
I sometimes like fucking binaries, though it
could be wrong,
Elle Billing (37:21):
okay, but the other way,
Andrew Gurza (37:26):
I like a good binary, though sometimes it's
really enjoyable,
Elle Billing (37:30):
yeah, yeah, okay, but you know what I mean, I got
you, yeah, yeah. So I'm reallyglad you wrote the book.
Andrew Gurza (37:37):
I'm also really glad I wrote it, because it's
out now, and it's cool to, like,it was cool to get emails from
the editor that was like, Okay,we're done now. Like, you
finished, you wrote, it's in.
It's like, prep for production.
Like, that was cool. And Iremember sending the first
chapter off to the editor beingso afraid of what he was gonna
(38:00):
think. Because I really, like,we had talked for hours and
hours, and I valued his opinionso much, and he was the one who
sought me out, and, like, foundme on Twitter, and was like,
please write a book. And so Iwas so worried he would hate it,
and his first email back to mewas, this is why I knew you
should write the book. And I waslike, Oh, wow. It made me feel
(38:21):
so confident to keep going andlike, it's not a long book, it's
only 142 pages. So it's a quickread, but it took, like, a year
and a bit to
Elle Billing (38:35):
Oh yeah. That says nothing about the process
getting there.
Andrew Gurza (38:39):
Oh no, the process took forever,
Elle Billing (38:44):
so I'm gonna I have one more question.
Andrew Gurza (38:49):
I'm ready.
Elle Billing (38:50):
Okay, what is one true thing that you learned from
writing your book?
Andrew Gurza (38:55):
that sometimes the stories aren't always as you
remember them, and you have tosit with that. Sometimes there
are stories in the book thatwere really hard for me to to
write, and once I put them onpaper, I could let them go. You
want me to elaborate on thatmore?
Elle Billing (39:14):
Yeah, if you would,
Andrew Gurza (39:15):
your face is saying, Tell me more.
Elle Billing (39:17):
I'm not, yeah. I was just like, I was, I was
sitting with that actually forjust a second, like, oh yeah,
but yes, I would love it if youcould elaborate on that.
Andrew Gurza (39:25):
I mean, there's just a lot of stuff in there,
like my first time that I talkabout stories that I told over
and over and over again, and Iprobably will continue to tell
over and over and over again.
But now that it's on the page, Idon't have to constantly bring
it up. I can say, read my bookon page 22 I talk about this
story.
Elle Billing (39:46):
It has a more it has a more perm-- It has some
permanence to it, yeah,
Andrew Gurza (39:49):
and I mean it also the thing I learned is that I
don't always want to write aboutsex and disability and queerness
and disability, like there's ahuge part of me now that I've
written the book that wants todo another book on severely
disabled people period the end,and write a whole different kind
of book about that experiencethat isn't just this book was
(40:14):
very focused in the narrative.
What they wanted, they wanted meto speak solely about queerness
and disability, and that was thebrief. And I did that. Now, like
for a bigger publisher to say,Hey, you want to write, what
does being severely disabledmean? Tell me that write a whole
bunch of stuff, or go findstories from other people who
(40:35):
are severely disabled and putthat in a book. Like, I'd love
to do something bigger and a bitmore outside of myself, and a
bit more like,
Elle Billing (40:50):
yeah,
Andrew Gurza (40:51):
academic events, because I'd like to do something
a bit deeper than the AndrewGurza story. Because I feel like
I've been as proud as I am ofthe book, and I'm so excited for
it, but I've also been tellingthese stories in my job for 15
years, so they don't feel freshto me. And that was one of the
things that I found that Istruggled doing when I was
(41:11):
running it. How do I make thesestories fun again? Like, how do
I make these stories that I'vetold a million times and like so
many different platforms, how doI make them, like, fresh? And
that was, that was a challenge,
Elle Billing (41:26):
yeah? And it doesn't need to just be the
Andrew Gurza story anymore. Nowit can be and friends,
Andrew Gurza (41:32):
yeah, like, now that parts are there's other
parts of my identity like that Iwant to explore, and I've
started using severely disabledin the past year and a half. And
people don't, a lot of disabledpeople don't like when I use
that term. I get pushed back alot for that terminology. I've
lost disabled friends becauseI've used that term for myself.
(41:53):
And so I'd love to explore thetension that that brings in up
in people, and why, and whatdoes that mean when you live
that experience, and why do youdo it? And so I don't know if
there's a book there, but I feellike there could be.
Elle Billing (42:07):
Yeah, I think that's an interesting and
important conversation. Ihaven't been part of that
conversation with you, but Ihave seen that and similar
conversations around kind of thedisability social mediaworld
about, like, functioning labelsand severity labels and things
like that, and
Andrew Gurza (42:27):
and like, that's part of why I turn off all the
comments, because I don't wantto have, I don't want to spend
my afternoon fighting aboutsemantics with you. I think we
have bigger stuff to worryabout, and the bigger stuff we
have to worry about right now islike, Medicaid being taken away,
Medicare being taken away, SSIbeing gutted. Like we have
bigger things to worry about,
Elle Billing (42:46):
disabled Black kids being taken away from their
families and being sent toreeducation farms like stuff we
thought was done 100 years ago,
Andrew Gurza (42:54):
like autistic people being put onto a farm to
-- like what? no
Elle Billing (43:00):
anti anti vaxxers shouldn't be in charge of health
Andrew Gurza (43:03):
But to move it away from all that for a minute.
care.
Um, so very excited about thebook. If you go on Amazon right
now, you can pre order it.
Elle Billing (43:14):
So what was the title?
Andrew Gurza (43:15):
Again, Notes from a Queer Cripple
Cultivate Queer Disabled Joy andBe Hot While Doing It by me
Andrew Gurza. And if you'relooking for the title and you
can't find it, it's blue andpink is the cover with a bunch
of balloons for the queercripple part of the title. And
then, like,
Elle Billing (43:33):
it's a great cover.
Andrew Gurza (43:35):
I was really,
Elle Billing (43:36):
I'll link it in the show notes.
Andrew Gurza (43:38):
I was really impressed with the cover. I had
no hand in the cover. They justshowed me that. And I was like,
okay, great, Yep, good,
Elle Billing (43:46):
yeah, so I will link that. I will link your
socials. It was good to talk toyou again.
Andrew Gurza (43:54):
Always a pleasure.
Elle Billing (43:56):
Yeah. Thanks for being here.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of Hoorf. to get the
complete show notes and all thelinks mentioned on today's
episode, or to get a fulltranscript of the episode, visit
Hoorf podcast dot com Join theBlessed Herd of St Winkus. By
(44:17):
signing up for our newsletter,you can get Hoorf episodes
delivered directly to yourinbox. What's more, you get
invitations to our monthlyCoffee and Biscuits Chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that at Hoorfpodcast dot com. If you become a
patron for only $3 a month, youcan support the creation of this
(44:40):
podcast, help pay my editor ,andjoin a community of caregivers
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing the chronically ill
queer femme who is very tired onthis episode of Hoorf! Until
next time, be excellent to eachother. Hoorf is hosted by Elle
Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings
(45:02):
@rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio LLC, all rights reserved.
Hoorf can be found on all socialmedia platforms. @hoorfpodcast
at H, O, O, R, F. Podcast.
Andrew Gurza (45:26):
that doesn't work.
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