February 10, 2025 • 40 mins
In this Bizarro Backwards Opposite-Day episode, Ricki and Elle switch places, and Elle is in the hot seat, answering the questions they usually ask their guests. Despite coming down off a multiday migraine and the word salad that accompanies it, Elle shares how her disability shapes her art practice, why she cherishes her community of Spoonie artists, and why she’s so focused on asking everyone about their One True Thing.
Links to join Ricki’s and Elle’s creative newsletters for all the latest on The Failure Experiment, as well as all other resource links, are **in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elle Billing (00:00):
Hi. My name is Elle. Billing. I am a
chronically ill queer femme, andI'm tired. I'm here this episode
and every episode to dig at theroots of our collective fatigue,
explore ways to direct our carein compassionate and sustainable
ways, and to harness creativeexpression to heal ourselves and
to heal our world. Welcome toHoorf, radical care in the late
(00:21):
capitalist heckscape.
Unknown (00:22):
...and that's how I ate a whole can of beans.
Ricki Cummings (01:03):
Hello, Elle,
Elle Billing (01:04):
hi, Ricki,
Ricki Cummings (01:06):
how are you?
Elle Billing (01:08):
Oh, I'm hang-- I'm holding on.
Ricki Cummings (01:11):
Well, that's good.
Elle Billing (01:13):
I had like, a three and a half day migraine
attack this week, and I stilldon't feel great, like I have
this spot on my scalp, you knowthe spot? It's that one right
back, kind of towards the backon the right side that gets
really tight when I've beenthinking really hard or doing
too much eye strain.
Ricki Cummings (01:32):
If you were Winky, it would be right next to
the bump of knowledge.
Elle Billing (01:35):
It would be right next to the bump of knowledge.
But for me, it's from over usingmy right eye. I think,
Ricki Cummings (01:43):
I mean, people do have dominant eyes, so, yeah,
Unknown (01:47):
so it's that tender bit right back there, and like,
touching it is, like, bothexcruciating and gratifying.
Yeah, where it's like, thishurts so bad. But I know that if
I can, just, like, massage thisa little bit, something in my
head will let go and I'll feelbetter. So that's that's where I
am today.
Ricki Cummings (02:07):
That's the weird thing about migraine pain
specifically is like you don'twant anything to touch it, but
also pressure makes it feelbetter.
Elle Billing (02:17):
Yeah, I have my ice hat that my friend Dean gave
me for Christmas one year, andlike, the first two minutes I
have it on are horrible,
Ricki Cummings (02:30):
yeah.
Unknown (02:31):
Because, but, like, that's, that's how it works,
like, that's why it's soeffective, because, like, you
can't be freezing cold and inpain at the same time,
Ricki Cummings (02:41):
yeah
Elle Billing (02:41):
so it's like, the first two minutes my body's
like, like, I don't, like this,the pressure and the cold, and
then it, like, short circuits mybrain, and then I feel better,
and plus icing my headache feelsgood. But, like, I always dread
like that first, like, (growl)putting it on. I'm like, I know
(03:03):
this is gonna be worth it, butit just gotta get over. Like,
yeah.
Ricki Cummings (03:09):
And then three days of that,
Elle Billing (03:11):
Mm, hmm, yeah, it was, it was rough. So now I'm
just really worn out. But alsoI'm kind of on a deadline for
these paintings and so. And Ithink part of the migraine, in
addition to we had a weather, wehad weather, yeah, is I've been
pushing myself really hard, andI've been craving salt, so I
(03:32):
think I've been dehydrated, oh,yeah, or, like, I'm trying to
hydrate, but I haven't beenhaving enough electrolytes and
salt, because, like, I wanted tosalt my pizza the other night.
And like, I never-- gross,right? I was like, this pizza
needs more salt. I was like, Ithink I need electrolytes. I
made ramen. And I was like, thisisn't salty enough. I was like,
(03:55):
I think I need someelectrolytes. That's a clue.
When your miso ramen doesn'ttaste salty enough, yeah, so I
added some of my favoritewatermelon flavored electrolytes
to my water, and I slammed it,and you know what? I felt so
much better. Like, my headachedidn't go away, but like, my
mouth wasn't dry anymore, and Iwasn't craving salt. And I was
(04:17):
like, I wish I had figured thisout two days ago.
Ricki Cummings (04:19):
So I think what we're gonna do today is like,
bizarro episode, isn't it? Like,
Elle Billing (04:27):
let's do it.
Ricki Cummings (04:28):
We're gonna finally, we're finally gonna
interview Elle, the interviewerbecomes the interviewee.
Elle Billing (04:34):
I'm in the hot seat. Yeah? It's not super hot,
though it's, it's comfy. Yeah,
Ricki Cummings (04:42):
it's all right.
It's all right. So I guess thenwe start with the first
question, which is, how have youreceived care this week?
Unknown (04:53):
Well, like I said, I had a migraine for three days,
so I spent a lot of timesleeping and. But as has
happened before, my dad had torun and do run errands this week
because I didn't want to drivewith the migraine, and so I
called in my mom's prescriptionsthat needed to be filled, and
(05:15):
then when they were ready,normally, I go pick them up. And
then if I need my supplementsand stuff, I pick those up too.
But I had to send my dad thisweek because it was this we got
new, fresh snow, and like, snowin the sunlight is the worst.
Ricki Cummings (05:32):
Oh yeah.
Elle Billing (05:33):
And I get really photophobic When I have a
migraine, like my eyes hurt sobad. And I was like, Dad, I just
can't. And he's like, that'sfine. And I was like, I need
supplements, I said, and I knowthat, like, there's, like, six
options for calcium and just asmany for magnesium, and those
are the ones I needed. I waslike, I can send a picture or
(05:54):
just tell you what the bottlelooks like. So he sent me
pictures when he was there. He'slike, are these are the ones.
I'm like, those are the ones.
And so we got it taken care of,and it was nice to not have to
go out in the bright sun when Iwas feeling terrible. We got it
all taken care of, and then hebrought brownies home too.
Ricki Cummings (06:14):
Oh, geez, chocolate is always good for
migraine times.
Unknown (06:19):
Yeah, I mean, it didn't help the migraine, but I didn't.
I wasn't as emotionallydistraught,
Ricki Cummings (06:25):
right?
Elle Billing (06:26):
He got treats.
Yeah, he brought caramel rollstoo. You know, no one mowed the
lawn, right? But there werecaramel rolls. For those who
don't know, when Ricki isstaying with us. Every time
Ricki mows the lawn, my dadbrings home caramel rolls. As to
say, thank you,
Ricki Cummings (06:42):
and it's much appreciated.
Elle Billing (06:44):
Yeah, both directions, yeah. Like, thanks
for mowing the lawn. Thanks forthe Carmel rolls. It's just how
Ricki Cummings (06:49):
One thing I was thinking about, like, every time
we do here.
there's, like, fresh snow up inthat area, like, ever since I
was a little kid, I thoughtabout, like, those, like the sun
shade goggles that pictures oflike Inuit people have with,
like the the horizontal slits.
Yeah, that's supposed to helptake down glare. Have you ever?
(07:11):
Have we ever tried that? I'venever tried that.
Elle Billing (07:15):
I've never tried those. No.
Ricki Cummings (07:16):
I wonder. I wonder if that wouldhelp.
Elle Billing (07:19):
I just wear the, I wear the I wear the huge dark
ones that go over my glasseswhen I go out. But if I'm really
photophobic, it doesn't reallymatter if I, I mean, it matters
that I wear them. It takes that,it helps. But like, even with
those on I'm miserable. You knowwhat? Another way that I
received care this week, I runspoonie studio, which is like
(07:42):
the virtual gathering space forspoonie artists. And we have our
Friday gathering, but we alsohave a group text,
Ricki Cummings (07:49):
yeah, explain spoonies. Oh, I'm not sure that
everyone that listens to thisknows what that is, yeah
Elle Billing (07:55):
yeah, spoonie is like a shorthand term for people
in this case,spoons. So like, if I wake up
who have invisible disabilitiesor chronic illness, and it a
with 12 spoons and I have toshower, that takes six of my
(08:31):
spoon is a unit of energy. Andso I'll link it in the in the
spoons, then I only have sixspoons to do the rest of my
whole day with. And when I'mout, I'm out like, they don't
come back, yeah? And if I, ifI'm, if I am acutely ill, I'll
show notes, to the to theoriginal piece of writing, where
(08:52):
wake up already low on spoons.
Like, I'll wake up with onlyfour, yeah, and still have to,
like, get... so spoonies. If yousee people on social media
talking about being a spoonie.
That's what they mean. So I runa program called spoonie studio,
which is for artists who aredisabled or chronically ill,
they, where the personintroduced the concept of
(09:13):
people who make stuff cometogether and just like make
stuff on our own terms, withoutthe pressures of capitalism or
productivity culture,
Ricki Cummings (09:21):
yeah.
Elle Billing (09:21):
And so we have our Friday gathering, but we also
have a group chat. And I have tosay, the last-- has it only been
spoons, the idea being likepeople who are able bodied and
three weeks, two weeks since theinauguration? Yeah, um, like
having a group of people whoalready sort of speak the same
language around what's happeningwith our bodyminds. You know, we
(09:45):
well, don't have to think aboutbudgeting their energy. They can
speak the language ofdisability, even though we all
have different diagnoses, right?
Like in a space where we don'thave to educate other people,
like we already, we already knowthat part about each other. We
already have that baseline, andwe can come together and, and
whether we're talking aboutcurrent events or not, we know
we can. And like, we all knowthat it's on our radar. And
(10:05):
like, we can support each otherjust do stuff, and their body
works and their brain works.
and encourage each other, and wecan share memes for
encouragement, or we can go, Youknow what, I'm having a really
tough time right now. This isscary. And like, no one's like,
You're overreacting, because youknow what? We all know it's
scary and like we can just holdthat space for each other and
talk about ways that, thingsthat we could do,
Where those of us with chronicillness or disability or
Ricki Cummings (10:27):
yeah
Elle Billing (10:28):
in a way that honors our capacity and also
isn't gaslighting or bypassingor any of those things that can
happen. So having a space to dothat and people to do that with
and not feeling any pressure tobe any certain way in the midst
invisible disability, we wake upand we have a limited number of
of it, where we can just go,aaaah, and be like, I know, but
(10:52):
at the same time go, here's acute puppy, like, there's space
for all of it. That has been, Ithink a really important form of
care for me and I hope for theother spoonies. I hope they're
energy units,getting as much out of it as I
am.
Ricki Cummings (11:09):
How long have you been doing it?
Elle Billing (11:11):
Almost a year. I think I started it last March.
Yeah, almost a year.
Ricki Cummings (11:16):
That's a long time.
Elle Billing (11:17):
Yeah, some really good people.
Ricki Cummings (11:19):
It's been almost every week, hasn't it?
Elle Billing (11:21):
Yeah, the only times that it hasn't happened, I
was actually traveling. I loggedinto spoonie studio from my
phone, and, like, nobody wentthat day, so, but like, I try to
show up, you know, every Friday,and there's only been a couple
times where no one's come. Butlike, I've been there. We get
(11:42):
people there every Friday. Comehang out.
Ricki Cummings (11:44):
Cool.
Elle Billing (11:45):
Yeah, it's been it's been good.
Ricki Cummings (11:48):
What sort of ways does spoonie studio like
work into your practice? Iguess.
Elle Billing (11:54):
Oh, that's kind of funny. So today's, we're
recording this on Friday. So Ihad spoonie studio today. when I
first started it last year, ourrouter didn't have a strong
enough signal for me to dospoonie studio in my studio,
like if I had my laptop up thereand was trying to run GoBrunch,
(12:18):
which is the platform we use.
It's a web conferencingplatform. I couldn't, it didn't
have enough bandwidth to runGoBrunch from my studio. So I
would just sit in the kitchenand on our first floor and hang
out. And I wasn't doing anythingstudio-ish, I was, I was
hosting, and I would talk toother people about what they
(12:38):
were making, right?
Ricki Cummings (12:40):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (12:41):
And, you know, having ADHD, it was kind of okay
for me to have to focus. I canget lost in painting. It's
happened. We just talked abouthow I get dehydrated when I
paint. But then last summer, wemoved the modem and the route,
no, we moved all of it into amore central location in the
house. So now I have better WiFi upstairs, where my bedroom
(13:02):
and my studio are. What I've runinto is that my mom's bedroom is
across the room from my studio,so I still-- she's usually
sleeping when I'm doing spooniestudio, but I figured out how to
make white like, get some whitenoise going for her. And if I
use my earbuds, my bluetoothheadphones right hooked up to my
laptop, and I kind of closed thedoor. I can actually be in the
(13:25):
studio painting with myheadphones on and have GoBrunch
running on my laptop. So Iactually was painting today
while we were in spoonie studio.
So it's as far as, like, how itworks into my practice. It's
like the thing I look forward toat the end of the week, like
Monday through Thursday, I havean evening job. I work a couple
two to three hours a night atthe sunflower processing plant,
(13:50):
doing grain inspection. Duringthe day, I try to get into the
studio for a couple hours. I'mhelping my mom a lot, but I'm
not really interacting withother people very much, and so
for me to get to spend time withother artists on Friday, and to
know that I have that to lookforward to is kind of a beacon
(14:12):
at the end of the week. Andlike, to hear about other
people's art that they're doing.
There's knitters and crochetersand painters and sculptors and
writers and stuff, and so Ithink feeding ourselves with
community and with other artforms, feeding ourselves that
(14:35):
way, is a really important partof the artistic life of like the
art practice, life,
Ricki Cummings (14:41):
yeah.
Elle Billing (14:42):
And I also on-- that happens on Fridays-- and on
Sundays, I send out a newsletterto the spoonies called the
Sunday Spoon where I do a littlerecap of what happened on
Friday. So it has this. Thenewsletter has the recap, a
resource and a respite. There'sthree parts to it. So it has the
recap and then a resource, whichis usually something like a
(15:05):
product recommendation oranother disabled creator to
follow. Or one week I said, Howto Make a Corsi-Rosenthal box,
because we're like, there'slike, four airborne viruses
going around right now, thingsthat like, here's something that
could make your disabled orchronically ill, life a little
bit easier. Or here's somebodyto follow who's a public health
(15:25):
attorney who is updating peopleon what's going on in the
federal government right now,because we can't follow
everything ourselves, so followthe people who are aggregating
it. And then respite usually islike something cute or funny or
encouraging or light hearted tosort of start the week. One time
I shared the story about therats that learned to drive the
(15:48):
little carts. Remember? I sentthat to our group.
Ricki Cummings (15:51):
I do remember the happy little rats driving.
Elle Billing (15:54):
Another week, it was the it was Weird Al doing
the cover of Hot to Go!Anothertime, it was a My Little Ponies
meme. You know, it's just stuffthat's like, hey, this made me
smile. Maybe you'll smile too.
And that's kind of part of mypractice too, because a big part
of my whole thing is connectionand care, and art as care for
(16:15):
myself, but also for otherpeople. And so it's just really
woven into what I do.
Ricki Cummings (16:24):
So one thing that we haven't talked about,
like, all in one go, like, it'sbeen talked about piecemeal
throughout the whole podcast andeverything. But like, how does
your disability impact yourpractice. How does it influence
your practice? How does it workinto it?
Elle Billing (16:45):
It's a good question.
Ricki Cummings (16:48):
It's your question. You asked it,
Elle Billing (16:50):
yeah know, but I have to answer it now. I started
painting like I took a class inhigh school art class where I
painted, but I don't, reallydidn't consider myself a painter
after that. I was completingassignments. I started painting
as like a hobby I might pursuein about 2018. Prior to that, my
(17:16):
artistic outlet of choice waspoetry and improv. But as my
migraine attacks got worse andmy medication side effects were
impairing me more, I was havinga harder time with words, and it
was really frustrating me. Idon't want my artistic outlet to
be another frustration for me.
It needs to be something thatfeeds me, not that drains me and
(17:39):
makes me upset. It needs to besomething I can do when I'm
upset to process those feelings.
So I started with printmaking asa way to try and capture the
experience of my my migraines.
Like right away it was like, myfirst foray into working with
(18:02):
print making and acrylic paintand stamp cutting was I need a
way to convey the experience ofmy disability. So it was like
the two--it was like disabilitybased art, and that's why I
started. so it's always beenkind of the core of why I'm
doing what I do. And I've done alot of migraine inspired work. I
(18:25):
branch, I've branched out fromthat, but a lot of my work is
still very centered in the thethemes of memory and identity,
because of my experience withmigraine and also queerness,
because identity is such a hugepart of that. But my disability
(18:46):
also colors how I'm queer.
I can't perform, Ican't perform femininity the way
Ricki Cummings (18:53):
Yeah, that-- even I mean, even if I
wanted to, I couldn't. Yeah, somemory and identity are themes
that I cover, like that Iaddress a lot of my artwork, and
a lot of that is because ofdisability and illness shaping
the way that I interact in theworld, and having been quote,
(19:13):
unquote, the smart kid, thegifted kid growing up and then
ending up with a neurologicaldisease that impacts my ability
to communicate at times, thatwas a real knock to my
perception of self, to myidentity. And so, I mean, that
is one way that my disabilityand my illness shape my art
(19:36):
practice, but I choose to makeart about, yeah, one thing
I notice is, and you've talkedabout this before, but not
terribly in depth, is the waythat words and linguistics
figure into your art. But it'snot always in ways that are
(19:59):
obvious. For example, you oftenuse pages out of the dictionary
or pages of classicalliterature, like your
Shakespeare ones often, oftenhad actual like lines from the
poems or the plays and stufflike as part of the the work
itself. But sometimes it's notobvious. Sometimes it's very
(20:23):
abstract, and on a much lowerlayer that it's like, not
obvious, that you can see it in.
So I was wondering if that'slike,
Elle Billing (20:32):
yes, that's a choice.
Ricki Cummings (20:33):
Yes,
Elle Billing (20:34):
that's a decision.
Ricki Cummings (20:36):
Yes. But um, one, one thing I mentioned in my
own newsletter was that one ofthe things I learned from David
Lynch is that everything isintentional, even if you don't
know why. Like, that's myquestion is, like, obviously
there's intention there. You'rethe artist, you did it, but do
(20:57):
you necessarily know when you'remaking something more or less
obvious or concrete in a piecethat you're working on?
Elle Billing (21:09):
yes, and. so I have some pieces where it's a
mix. Um, I'm actually teachingworkshops this year about my art
process. My art process is verymuch about embracing duality,
because it there, it is a verymuch a mix of intention and
intuition and structure andserendipity. Okay, so, like,
(21:35):
there will be times where I tearout specific pages of
Shakespeare and save them for aspecific layer. I did a piece in
my Ophelia collection called Iam no brother. No. not brother.
I am no mother, I am no bride. Icombine those into one word, I
am no brother. I did it again. Iam no mother, I am no-- I need a
(21:57):
nap really bad. This is whathappens. See, this is what
happens when I've had a migraineall, my words just..
Ricki Cummings (22:02):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (22:02):
I am no mother. I am no bride. You wear yours with
the difference. And Ispecifically used one monologue
from Ophelia, and photo copiedit four times and made four
flower petals with that excerpt.
And that was on the top layer;that was an intentional choice,
yeah, because there was a linein that speech that mentions the
(22:25):
flower rue, right, and I'm --that was the flower that I made
out of that those petals, thatwas a very intentional choice,
because it was the whole meaningof the painting was centered on
that flower. But likeunderneath, there were other
pages from the book from Hamletthat were just pages I tore out
and used as collage layers. WhenI did my Berenstein Bears
(22:49):
collection, the illustrationsthat I layered under the paint
were all intentionally chosenfor each Painting. When I did
the buffalo paintings from ourtrip across Wyoming.
Ricki Cummings (23:05):
I don't know that I recall those ones
Elle Billing (23:09):
we never saw a single bison.
Ricki Cummings (23:11):
Oh yeah,
Elle Billing (23:12):
that one I used pages from a children's
encyclopedia about the WildWest. I painted over it with
some acrylic paint, and thenscratched back with the end of
my paint with the butt end of mypaintbrush, one line about the
like, I paid attention to whereI was painting and what the text
was, and I scraped back justover one line of text about the
(23:35):
disappearance of the bison. Sosometimes it's very intentional,
like, I want you to see thisline, yeah. And sometimes it's
Ricki Cummings (23:42):
Yeah, just, like, the stuff I'm
working on now for The FailureExperiment, it's just a lot of
random, weird old text about how
Elle Billing (23:50):
right. Like, I look for really interesting
the internet works. And so Ihave, like, glaze over it. Like
I've glazed over it with a bunchof different layers. And so,
like, you can read it if youwant to, but you don't have to,
but if you did, it would belike, Oh, that's that's
interesting. It adds to themeaning, but it's not necessary,
(24:11):
yeah? So it's a mix, becausesometimes happy accidents happen
books. I don't just buyanything. Except dictionaries,
and you end up with a word youdon't expect, like, just
dictionary pages, and the wordetiquette shows up a piece where
you also used a page from EmilyPost's Etiquette. Like, like,
Oh, happy accidents. I leavespace for that too. And
sometimes I buy specific like, Iget all my books at the thrift
(24:35):
store or from, like, librarydiscard piles. And like, I will
find a book and be like, Oh, I'mbuying this, and I, I'm gonna
I'll always buy. But, like, thebook has to, like, call to me.
wait for like-- like, I have anabnormal psychology book from
the 60s. I've used a couplepages out of it, one of the
pages, couple of pages onaddiction, yeah. But like, at
some point there's gonna be,there's gonna be a reason I need
(25:00):
that book.
It has to be something like, Ihave a, like, a 1937 Etiquette
by Emily Post. I have onbecoming a woman from 1954
Ricki Cummings (25:19):
Oh, geez.
Elle Billing (25:20):
Oh, it's awful.
Ricki Cummings (25:21):
Yeah, I bet
Elle Billing (25:22):
my favorite chapter is the chapter called
"Danger!" and it's aboutlesbians,
Ricki Cummings (25:31):
those wily lesbians, witchcraft and
communism.
Unknown (25:36):
So like, the book has to call to me and it'll and then
something will find its way into
Ricki Cummings (25:43):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (25:43):
into my work.
Ricki Cummings (25:45):
I was looking for a way to get this question
in a nice like, segue. But no,oh, I think that moment has the
the moment for segue has passed,so I'm just good like. So what
does a normal, quote, unquote,normal day for you look like?
Elle Billing (26:08):
Oh!
Ricki Cummings (26:09):
from a care standpoint and-or from an
artistic standpoint,
Elle Billing (26:13):
okay, weekday or weekend?
Ricki Cummings (26:17):
Well, there's more week days, so probably
that.
Elle Billing (26:20):
So my dog will get me up around seven to feed her.
And my dad's usually still homeat seven doing breakfast or
whatever, or taking his nap, hispost breakfast nap before he
leaves to do farming stuff. SoI'll feed the dog. I'll say hi
to Dad, I'll go back to bed, andthen Winkie will wake me up
(26:41):
again to go potty, because, ofcourse, she can't, can't combine
those two, no, gosh, no. Gonnamake me go up the stairs two
more times. So anyway, we do thefood and go into the bathroom,
and then she lets me sleep in,usually till about 930 and then
I get up. twice a week I shower,which that's a whole thing,
(27:01):
because it just, I have to takeseated showers. That's why I
only do it twice a week. Takes alot of energy. I take my meds, I
brush my teeth. I do all that. Iget my mom's meds out and ready
so that whenever she wakes up,which is anytime between 11 and
2, they're out and ready. And Idon't have to, like, remember,
later to get them. I just getthem out and ready for her. I
(27:21):
eat breakfast and have mycoffee, depending on how I'm
feeling, I might start paintingor reading or working on
something on my computer rightaway, or I might kill time on my
phone trying to fire my brain upuntil dad gets home at noon. I
usually sit and have lunch withhim, do the crossword maybe, or
(27:43):
just talk to him about what'sgoing on that day or during the
week, when he goes for his nap,I either also nap or paint or
work on my computer somewhere.
When I'm on the computer, it'sdoing like other business stuff,
emails, podcast stuff, workingon my website, making things for
my spoonies or for my art class,whatever. At some point I do
(28:06):
take a two hour nap. At somepoint my mom does wake up. I
make sure she eats something andgets enough water. At Five I
feed the dog again, and then at
7 (28:18):
30 I have to go to work. So sometime between 5:00 and 7:30 I
also eat supper, and then at7:30 I go to work, I come home
at 10 (28:26):
30 and I get ready for bed. So it's just a lot of like
balancing my energy betweenchecking on my mom, keeping an
eye on my dog, and like doingstudio and computer activities
and napping, and it's like, itdoesn't sound like I do very
(28:47):
much. Why would I need a twohour nap? I just can't do much.
Like two hours on the computerand my brain is toast.
Ricki Cummings (28:53):
Yeah, actually, I was gonna ask you how.
Actually, I'm gonna back up andpreface this a little bit like
one of the things that artistsin general don't like talking
about is like the business partof being an artist, especially
an independent artist, and sohow does your disability affect
(29:13):
the admin and business andcomputery related part of doing
your art?
Elle Billing (29:19):
Yeah, I have such limited energy. Like, right now
I am in creation mode. That'sall I want to be doing. I don't
want to be on the computer,because switching tasks takes as
much energy as doing a task,like switching brain modes. But
I'm also, like, I need to doother things, so I try to pick,
(29:40):
like, one or two days just to doadmin, and then the rest of the
time I ignore my computer andjust paint or I'll do admin
during my break at work atnight, like catch up on emails
while I'm waiting for cans tocool. It's hard. for. For the
(30:00):
normies, right? The ableds,running a small business is a
more than a full time job.
Ricki Cummings (30:05):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (30:06):
I can't even work a part time job. So, like, I
have good support. I have peoplewho I can ask for help. I have
people who can do things for me,if I ask them, Who can help me
get things done. But I stillcan't put, like, even with help
I don't there's no way to put in40 hours a week doing all the
things that need to be done,which is why my business is not
(30:28):
as far as I want it to be. But Ialso have to redefine success
for myself because of what I'mdoing and what I can do. So
like, I'm happy with how far myart practice is. Like, I'm
really happy with the paintingsI'm making right now. I'm really
happy with the work you and Iare doing together
collaboratively. Spoonie Studiois something I'm really proud
(30:51):
of. The workshops that I'mteaching. This is the, like, the
founders year of my artworkshops where, like, I have
the bones of the of the programand like these, this first group
of people that's gonna gothrough the workshops with me
are kind of helping me put themeat on the bones. And like, I
(31:13):
went back and looked, like I hadto do the transcript for the
first workshop, and I was doingit at the table, and mom was
eating something, and I liftedup my headphone, and I was like,
Hey, Mom, did you know that I'msmart? Like, I was listening
back to, like, what I had saidduring the workshop. And I was
like, huh, that was really good.
Like, I because, like, sometimesI think I don't know, what am I
(31:37):
even doing, right? Like fouryears ago I blew up my life, or
my life blew up, and I got thehell out of there, and I still
have moments. What am I doing?
Ricki Cummings (31:50):
Yeah
Elle Billing (31:51):
have I been painting long enough to be
teaching other people about it?
Well, I'm not teaching thempainting lessons. This is like
process, how to find the why ofyour art, how to create more
meaning, how to make art thatmatters in a time when we need
that. I know about that. That'sthe type of art I've always
made. I when I did theater, Iwas all about theater for social
(32:12):
change. When I was writingpoetry, it was poetry with some
guts. It was, you know,
Ricki Cummings (32:18):
yeah
Elle Billing (32:19):
now I'm just doing it with visual art, I know what
I'm talking about. Listeningback, I was like, Oh, I do know
what I'm talking about. This isokay. I'm doing okay. I'm just
doing it slower, and that'sokay. I don't know if that
answered your question. I thinkso. I guess my disability makes
the business side of my artslow, slow, yeah, yeah. It's
(32:43):
just it makes it much slower.
Ricki Cummings (32:46):
Well, that I think moves us into our last
question, because we're gettingclose to out of time here. So
what is one true thing that youhave learned from your art
practice,
Unknown (32:59):
that there is, it doesn't matter if it seems that
someone has always, has alreadydone something, because, like,
no one has done it exactly theway that I'm going to do it,
with my, like, with myexperiences and my perspectives.
There was one, there was at onepoint a couple years ago when I
(33:19):
was still putting together,like, what is it that I do? And
I was like, well, it's sort oflike cubism, except queer, and
it adds the fourth dimension oftime, okay? Because cubism, it
was like, like, all threedimensions, right? Represented
in the two dimensional plane,all perspectives at once. Blah,
blah, blah. Well, I have issueswith Picasso. He's he was a dick
Ricki Cummings (33:42):
documented.
That's, that's, that's fact hewas a terrible person.
Elle Billing (33:45):
He from his own mouth, yeah. Plus, I just read
Hannah Gatsby's memoir, and shegets into that again too, where
she's like, Picasso was a dick.
So it's on the front of my brainagain. And I'm like, But, and,
but and, but this my style isn'tCubism. You wouldn't look at it
and go, Oh, it's a piece ofcubist art, but, like,
philosophically, that's what I'mdoing with the timeline, right?
(34:06):
And I, I was like, but I don'twant to call it that, or even
say "it's like, cubism, but"because that's already been
done. And I was like, but noone's done it the way I've done
it. And on the one hand, I don'thave to do something completely
original that nobody's ever donebefore,
Ricki Cummings (34:26):
yeah,
Elle Billing (34:27):
like, right now I'm working on a painting of
Saint Agnes, right? SaintAgatha, sorry, Saint Agatha of
Sicily. And a lot of people havepainted her,
Ricki Cummings (34:36):
many people
Elle Billing (34:37):
many people. No one has painted her the way I've
painted her. It's okay if I'mdoing Saint Agatha, you know,
because the way I'm doing her isdifferent, and the reason I'm
doing her might not be the samereason someone else is doing
her. It's okay if there's onemore Saint Agatha painting, and
it's okay if it's hot pink
Ricki Cummings (34:52):
better! in my opinion. But
Elle Billing (34:55):
we'll see. We'll see how this turns out. We're
kind of at the awkward stageright now. So I guess the one
true thing is, like, no one'sgonna do it the same way that
I'm doing it or the same wayanyone else is doing it. What's
the more important is that it'strue. Like, I think I would
rather create something that'sderivative and true than
(35:20):
something that's completelyoriginal and like, doesn't mean
anything. And I think that'swhere I end, where I fall on a
Gen AI too. I mean, among, Imean, there's lots of ways to
tackle that too. But like, froman artistic standpoint, it's not
true. Like, there's no truth,and that's why it just-- can't
(35:40):
agree?
Ricki Cummings (35:40):
No, it's, it's not that I don't agree. It's
that I totally agree completely.
But I want to make sure-- thisis going to add several minutes
to our runtime, I'm sure. Butlike, I want to make sure that
we have a definition of truth.
Elle Billing (35:59):
Oh, right.
Ricki Cummings (36:01):
Because, I mean, obviously we're not going to
define an abstract concept likethat, but like, what does truth,
I guess, mean to you?
Elle Billing (36:09):
Okay, and... truth in the same way that I ask
people, What is one true thingyou've learned from your art
practice? I took a workshop onpainting Cloudscapes. They were
beachy Cloudscapes. It meantnothing to me. Like tropical
escapes to me, I'm like, whywould I paint a beach scape? It
doesn't mean anything to me if Ichange it to a desert landscape.
(36:33):
That's true for me. I lived inIdaho. I've been there. I have a
connection to that landscape. Iadd some windmills, cows, you
know, that, or sagebrush. Thatto me, lots of people paint
landscapes. I kind of likepainting landscapes sometimes,
(36:53):
not all the time. There has tobe something true about it for
me to want to do it. I didn'twant to paint flowers until
after my grandma died, there wasno there was no motivating
factor for me to paint florals.
My grandma died, then there wassome truth to them. That's one
of the reasons why I'm sointerested in the one true thing
question this this season, isbecause one true thing is a huge
(37:17):
piece of my art practice, like Ihave to have something true in
each of my paintings.
Ricki Cummings (37:26):
Is that truth, factual or emotional to you? In
that sense
Elle Billing (37:36):
that's a really good question, and I don't know,
Ricki Cummings (37:38):
it sort of reminds me of that very old
writer's advice, write what youknow, you know,
Elle Billing (37:46):
right? Which is what I used to teach my
students, to write what youknow. Yeah
Ricki Cummings (37:51):
at the same time, like, if you only stick to
what you know, then you're goingto get you're possibly going to
get stagnant. And so like theidea, I think I like the idea of
just including one true thing,rather than making that like the
whole of the subject.
Elle Billing (38:10):
You said, Write what you know, right? Well, I
didn't know cyberpunk, but eachof the paintings in this series
has one true thing in it, likeI'm doing a cyberpunk Saint
Agatha. She's the patron saintof breast cancer survivors and
breast cancer patients. That'sthe one true thing. Is my family
history of breast cancer and thefact that I have to go in every
six months for imaging like,write what I know, paint what I
(38:33):
know I don't know cyberpunk.
This is intellectually difficultfor me. I'm stretching myself.
But there's still something true
Ricki Cummings (38:39):
So I I guess your one true thing is
in each of the paintings.
Elle Billing (38:43):
one true thing
Ricki Cummings (38:45):
true things.
Yeah, that's interesting. Wow.
Now that, now that we'vesufficiently run over time, I
think I can say thank you forbeing on your podcast.
Elle Billing (38:58):
Thank you for having me on my podcast. This
was fun.
Ricki Cummings (39:04):
Yeah,cool, cool.
Elle Billing (39:09):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf to get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit Hoorf podcast dotcom. Join the Blessed Herd of St
Winkus.By signing up for ournewsletter, you can get Hoorf
episodes delivered directly toyour inbox. What's more, you get
(39:30):
invitations to our monthlyCoffee & Biscuits Chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that at Hoorfpodcast dot com. if you become a
patron for only $3 a month, youcan support the creation of this
podcast, help pay my editor andjoin a community of caregivers
(39:51):
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf.
Until next time, be excellent toeach other. Hoorf is hosted by
Elle Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings
@Rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
(40:12):
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio, LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms.
@HoorfPodcast, at H, O, O, R, Fpodcast, I did it again.
Hi. My name is Elle. Billing. I am a
chronically ill queer femme, andI'm tired. I'm here this episode
and every episode to dig at theroots of our collective fatigue,
explore ways to direct our carein compassionate and sustainable
ways, and to harness creativeexpression to heal ourselves and
to heal our world. Welcome toHoorf, radical care in the late
(00:21):
capitalist heckscape.
Unknown (00:22):
...and that's how I ate a whole can of beans.
Ricki Cummings (01:03):
Hello, Elle,
Elle Billing (01:04):
hi, Ricki,
Ricki Cummings (01:06):
how are you?
Elle Billing (01:08):
Oh, I'm hang-- I'm holding on.
Ricki Cummings (01:11):
Well, that's good.
Elle Billing (01:13):
I had like, a three and a half day migraine
attack this week, and I stilldon't feel great, like I have
this spot on my scalp, you knowthe spot? It's that one right
back, kind of towards the backon the right side that gets
really tight when I've beenthinking really hard or doing
too much eye strain.
Ricki Cummings (01:32):
If you were Winky, it would be right next to
the bump of knowledge.
Elle Billing (01:35):
It would be right next to the bump of knowledge.
But for me, it's from over usingmy right eye. I think,
Ricki Cummings (01:43):
I mean, people do have dominant eyes, so, yeah,
Unknown (01:47):
so it's that tender bit right back there, and like,
touching it is, like, bothexcruciating and gratifying.
Yeah, where it's like, thishurts so bad. But I know that if
I can, just, like, massage thisa little bit, something in my
head will let go and I'll feelbetter. So that's that's where I
am today.
Ricki Cummings (02:07):
That's the weird thing about migraine pain
specifically is like you don'twant anything to touch it, but
also pressure makes it feelbetter.
Elle Billing (02:17):
Yeah, I have my ice hat that my friend Dean gave
me for Christmas one year, andlike, the first two minutes I
have it on are horrible,
Ricki Cummings (02:30):
yeah.
Unknown (02:31):
Because, but, like, that's, that's how it works,
like, that's why it's soeffective, because, like, you
can't be freezing cold and inpain at the same time,
Ricki Cummings (02:41):
yeah
Elle Billing (02:41):
so it's like, the first two minutes my body's
like, like, I don't, like this,the pressure and the cold, and
then it, like, short circuits mybrain, and then I feel better,
and plus icing my headache feelsgood. But, like, I always dread
like that first, like, (growl)putting it on. I'm like, I know
(03:03):
this is gonna be worth it, butit just gotta get over. Like,
yeah.
Ricki Cummings (03:09):
And then three days of that,
Elle Billing (03:11):
Mm, hmm, yeah, it was, it was rough. So now I'm
just really worn out. But alsoI'm kind of on a deadline for
these paintings and so. And Ithink part of the migraine, in
addition to we had a weather, wehad weather, yeah, is I've been
pushing myself really hard, andI've been craving salt, so I
(03:32):
think I've been dehydrated, oh,yeah, or, like, I'm trying to
hydrate, but I haven't beenhaving enough electrolytes and
salt, because, like, I wanted tosalt my pizza the other night.
And like, I never-- gross,right? I was like, this pizza
needs more salt. I was like, Ithink I need electrolytes. I
made ramen. And I was like, thisisn't salty enough. I was like,
(03:55):
I think I need someelectrolytes. That's a clue.
When your miso ramen doesn'ttaste salty enough, yeah, so I
added some of my favoritewatermelon flavored electrolytes
to my water, and I slammed it,and you know what? I felt so
much better. Like, my headachedidn't go away, but like, my
mouth wasn't dry anymore, and Iwasn't craving salt. And I was
(04:17):
like, I wish I had figured thisout two days ago.
Ricki Cummings (04:19):
So I think what we're gonna do today is like,
bizarro episode, isn't it? Like,
Elle Billing (04:27):
let's do it.
Ricki Cummings (04:28):
We're gonna finally, we're finally gonna
interview Elle, the interviewerbecomes the interviewee.
Elle Billing (04:34):
I'm in the hot seat. Yeah? It's not super hot,
though it's, it's comfy. Yeah,
Ricki Cummings (04:42):
it's all right.
It's all right. So I guess thenwe start with the first
question, which is, how have youreceived care this week?
Unknown (04:53):
Well, like I said, I had a migraine for three days,
so I spent a lot of timesleeping and. But as has
happened before, my dad had torun and do run errands this week
because I didn't want to drivewith the migraine, and so I
called in my mom's prescriptionsthat needed to be filled, and
(05:15):
then when they were ready,normally, I go pick them up. And
then if I need my supplementsand stuff, I pick those up too.
But I had to send my dad thisweek because it was this we got
new, fresh snow, and like, snowin the sunlight is the worst.
Ricki Cummings (05:32):
Oh yeah.
Elle Billing (05:33):
And I get really photophobic When I have a
migraine, like my eyes hurt sobad. And I was like, Dad, I just
can't. And he's like, that'sfine. And I was like, I need
supplements, I said, and I knowthat, like, there's, like, six
options for calcium and just asmany for magnesium, and those
are the ones I needed. I waslike, I can send a picture or
(05:54):
just tell you what the bottlelooks like. So he sent me
pictures when he was there. He'slike, are these are the ones.
I'm like, those are the ones.
And so we got it taken care of,and it was nice to not have to
go out in the bright sun when Iwas feeling terrible. We got it
all taken care of, and then hebrought brownies home too.
Ricki Cummings (06:14):
Oh, geez, chocolate is always good for
migraine times.
Unknown (06:19):
Yeah, I mean, it didn't help the migraine, but I didn't.
I wasn't as emotionallydistraught,
Ricki Cummings (06:25):
right?
Elle Billing (06:26):
He got treats.
Yeah, he brought caramel rollstoo. You know, no one mowed the
lawn, right? But there werecaramel rolls. For those who
don't know, when Ricki isstaying with us. Every time
Ricki mows the lawn, my dadbrings home caramel rolls. As to
say, thank you,
Ricki Cummings (06:42):
and it's much appreciated.
Elle Billing (06:44):
Yeah, both directions, yeah. Like, thanks
for mowing the lawn. Thanks forthe Carmel rolls. It's just how
Ricki Cummings (06:49):
One thing I was thinking about, like, every time
we do here.
there's, like, fresh snow up inthat area, like, ever since I
was a little kid, I thoughtabout, like, those, like the sun
shade goggles that pictures oflike Inuit people have with,
like the the horizontal slits.
Yeah, that's supposed to helptake down glare. Have you ever?
(07:11):
Have we ever tried that? I'venever tried that.
Elle Billing (07:15):
I've never tried those. No.
Ricki Cummings (07:16):
I wonder. I wonder if that wouldhelp.
Elle Billing (07:19):
I just wear the, I wear the I wear the huge dark
ones that go over my glasseswhen I go out. But if I'm really
photophobic, it doesn't reallymatter if I, I mean, it matters
that I wear them. It takes that,it helps. But like, even with
those on I'm miserable. You knowwhat? Another way that I
received care this week, I runspoonie studio, which is like
(07:42):
the virtual gathering space forspoonie artists. And we have our
Friday gathering, but we alsohave a group text,
Ricki Cummings (07:49):
yeah, explain spoonies. Oh, I'm not sure that
everyone that listens to thisknows what that is, yeah
Elle Billing (07:55):
yeah, spoonie is like a shorthand term for people
in this case,spoons. So like, if I wake up
who have invisible disabilitiesor chronic illness, and it a
with 12 spoons and I have toshower, that takes six of my
(08:31):
spoon is a unit of energy. Andso I'll link it in the in the
spoons, then I only have sixspoons to do the rest of my
whole day with. And when I'mout, I'm out like, they don't
come back, yeah? And if I, ifI'm, if I am acutely ill, I'll
show notes, to the to theoriginal piece of writing, where
(08:52):
wake up already low on spoons.
Like, I'll wake up with onlyfour, yeah, and still have to,
like, get... so spoonies. If yousee people on social media
talking about being a spoonie.
That's what they mean. So I runa program called spoonie studio,
which is for artists who aredisabled or chronically ill,
they, where the personintroduced the concept of
(09:13):
people who make stuff cometogether and just like make
stuff on our own terms, withoutthe pressures of capitalism or
productivity culture,
Ricki Cummings (09:21):
yeah.
Elle Billing (09:21):
And so we have our Friday gathering, but we also
have a group chat. And I have tosay, the last-- has it only been
spoons, the idea being likepeople who are able bodied and
three weeks, two weeks since theinauguration? Yeah, um, like
having a group of people whoalready sort of speak the same
language around what's happeningwith our bodyminds. You know, we
(09:45):
well, don't have to think aboutbudgeting their energy. They can
speak the language ofdisability, even though we all
have different diagnoses, right?
Like in a space where we don'thave to educate other people,
like we already, we already knowthat part about each other. We
already have that baseline, andwe can come together and, and
whether we're talking aboutcurrent events or not, we know
we can. And like, we all knowthat it's on our radar. And
(10:05):
like, we can support each otherjust do stuff, and their body
works and their brain works.
and encourage each other, and wecan share memes for
encouragement, or we can go, Youknow what, I'm having a really
tough time right now. This isscary. And like, no one's like,
You're overreacting, because youknow what? We all know it's
scary and like we can just holdthat space for each other and
talk about ways that, thingsthat we could do,
Where those of us with chronicillness or disability or
Ricki Cummings (10:27):
yeah
Elle Billing (10:28):
in a way that honors our capacity and also
isn't gaslighting or bypassingor any of those things that can
happen. So having a space to dothat and people to do that with
and not feeling any pressure tobe any certain way in the midst
invisible disability, we wake upand we have a limited number of
of it, where we can just go,aaaah, and be like, I know, but
(10:52):
at the same time go, here's acute puppy, like, there's space
for all of it. That has been, Ithink a really important form of
care for me and I hope for theother spoonies. I hope they're
energy units,getting as much out of it as I
am.
Ricki Cummings (11:09):
How long have you been doing it?
Elle Billing (11:11):
Almost a year. I think I started it last March.
Yeah, almost a year.
Ricki Cummings (11:16):
That's a long time.
Elle Billing (11:17):
Yeah, some really good people.
Ricki Cummings (11:19):
It's been almost every week, hasn't it?
Elle Billing (11:21):
Yeah, the only times that it hasn't happened, I
was actually traveling. I loggedinto spoonie studio from my
phone, and, like, nobody wentthat day, so, but like, I try to
show up, you know, every Friday,and there's only been a couple
times where no one's come. Butlike, I've been there. We get
(11:42):
people there every Friday. Comehang out.
Ricki Cummings (11:44):
Cool.
Elle Billing (11:45):
Yeah, it's been it's been good.
Ricki Cummings (11:48):
What sort of ways does spoonie studio like
work into your practice? Iguess.
Elle Billing (11:54):
Oh, that's kind of funny. So today's, we're
recording this on Friday. So Ihad spoonie studio today. when I
first started it last year, ourrouter didn't have a strong
enough signal for me to dospoonie studio in my studio,
like if I had my laptop up thereand was trying to run GoBrunch,
(12:18):
which is the platform we use.
It's a web conferencingplatform. I couldn't, it didn't
have enough bandwidth to runGoBrunch from my studio. So I
would just sit in the kitchenand on our first floor and hang
out. And I wasn't doing anythingstudio-ish, I was, I was
hosting, and I would talk toother people about what they
(12:38):
were making, right?
Ricki Cummings (12:40):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (12:41):
And, you know, having ADHD, it was kind of okay
for me to have to focus. I canget lost in painting. It's
happened. We just talked abouthow I get dehydrated when I
paint. But then last summer, wemoved the modem and the route,
no, we moved all of it into amore central location in the
house. So now I have better WiFi upstairs, where my bedroom
(13:02):
and my studio are. What I've runinto is that my mom's bedroom is
across the room from my studio,so I still-- she's usually
sleeping when I'm doing spooniestudio, but I figured out how to
make white like, get some whitenoise going for her. And if I
use my earbuds, my bluetoothheadphones right hooked up to my
laptop, and I kind of closed thedoor. I can actually be in the
(13:25):
studio painting with myheadphones on and have GoBrunch
running on my laptop. So Iactually was painting today
while we were in spoonie studio.
So it's as far as, like, how itworks into my practice. It's
like the thing I look forward toat the end of the week, like
Monday through Thursday, I havean evening job. I work a couple
two to three hours a night atthe sunflower processing plant,
(13:50):
doing grain inspection. Duringthe day, I try to get into the
studio for a couple hours. I'mhelping my mom a lot, but I'm
not really interacting withother people very much, and so
for me to get to spend time withother artists on Friday, and to
know that I have that to lookforward to is kind of a beacon
(14:12):
at the end of the week. Andlike, to hear about other
people's art that they're doing.
There's knitters and crochetersand painters and sculptors and
writers and stuff, and so Ithink feeding ourselves with
community and with other artforms, feeding ourselves that
(14:35):
way, is a really important partof the artistic life of like the
art practice, life,
Ricki Cummings (14:41):
yeah.
Elle Billing (14:42):
And I also on-- that happens on Fridays-- and on
Sundays, I send out a newsletterto the spoonies called the
Sunday Spoon where I do a littlerecap of what happened on
Friday. So it has this. Thenewsletter has the recap, a
resource and a respite. There'sthree parts to it. So it has the
recap and then a resource, whichis usually something like a
(15:05):
product recommendation oranother disabled creator to
follow. Or one week I said, Howto Make a Corsi-Rosenthal box,
because we're like, there'slike, four airborne viruses
going around right now, thingsthat like, here's something that
could make your disabled orchronically ill, life a little
bit easier. Or here's somebodyto follow who's a public health
(15:25):
attorney who is updating peopleon what's going on in the
federal government right now,because we can't follow
everything ourselves, so followthe people who are aggregating
it. And then respite usually islike something cute or funny or
encouraging or light hearted tosort of start the week. One time
I shared the story about therats that learned to drive the
(15:48):
little carts. Remember? I sentthat to our group.
Ricki Cummings (15:51):
I do remember the happy little rats driving.
Elle Billing (15:54):
Another week, it was the it was Weird Al doing
the cover of Hot to Go!Anothertime, it was a My Little Ponies
meme. You know, it's just stuffthat's like, hey, this made me
smile. Maybe you'll smile too.
And that's kind of part of mypractice too, because a big part
of my whole thing is connectionand care, and art as care for
(16:15):
myself, but also for otherpeople. And so it's just really
woven into what I do.
Ricki Cummings (16:24):
So one thing that we haven't talked about,
like, all in one go, like, it'sbeen talked about piecemeal
throughout the whole podcast andeverything. But like, how does
your disability impact yourpractice. How does it influence
your practice? How does it workinto it?
Elle Billing (16:45):
It's a good question.
Ricki Cummings (16:48):
It's your question. You asked it,
Elle Billing (16:50):
yeah know, but I have to answer it now. I started
painting like I took a class inhigh school art class where I
painted, but I don't, reallydidn't consider myself a painter
after that. I was completingassignments. I started painting
as like a hobby I might pursuein about 2018. Prior to that, my
(17:16):
artistic outlet of choice waspoetry and improv. But as my
migraine attacks got worse andmy medication side effects were
impairing me more, I was havinga harder time with words, and it
was really frustrating me. Idon't want my artistic outlet to
be another frustration for me.
It needs to be something thatfeeds me, not that drains me and
(17:39):
makes me upset. It needs to besomething I can do when I'm
upset to process those feelings.
So I started with printmaking asa way to try and capture the
experience of my my migraines.
Like right away it was like, myfirst foray into working with
(18:02):
print making and acrylic paintand stamp cutting was I need a
way to convey the experience ofmy disability. So it was like
the two--it was like disabilitybased art, and that's why I
started. so it's always beenkind of the core of why I'm
doing what I do. And I've done alot of migraine inspired work. I
(18:25):
branch, I've branched out fromthat, but a lot of my work is
still very centered in the thethemes of memory and identity,
because of my experience withmigraine and also queerness,
because identity is such a hugepart of that. But my disability
(18:46):
also colors how I'm queer.
I can't perform, Ican't perform femininity the way
Ricki Cummings (18:53):
Yeah, that-- even I mean, even if I
wanted to, I couldn't. Yeah, somemory and identity are themes
that I cover, like that Iaddress a lot of my artwork, and
a lot of that is because ofdisability and illness shaping
the way that I interact in theworld, and having been quote,
(19:13):
unquote, the smart kid, thegifted kid growing up and then
ending up with a neurologicaldisease that impacts my ability
to communicate at times, thatwas a real knock to my
perception of self, to myidentity. And so, I mean, that
is one way that my disabilityand my illness shape my art
(19:36):
practice, but I choose to makeart about, yeah, one thing
I notice is, and you've talkedabout this before, but not
terribly in depth, is the waythat words and linguistics
figure into your art. But it'snot always in ways that are
(19:59):
obvious. For example, you oftenuse pages out of the dictionary
or pages of classicalliterature, like your
Shakespeare ones often, oftenhad actual like lines from the
poems or the plays and stufflike as part of the the work
itself. But sometimes it's notobvious. Sometimes it's very
(20:23):
abstract, and on a much lowerlayer that it's like, not
obvious, that you can see it in.
So I was wondering if that'slike,
Elle Billing (20:32):
yes, that's a choice.
Ricki Cummings (20:33):
Yes,
Elle Billing (20:34):
that's a decision.
Ricki Cummings (20:36):
Yes. But um, one, one thing I mentioned in my
own newsletter was that one ofthe things I learned from David
Lynch is that everything isintentional, even if you don't
know why. Like, that's myquestion is, like, obviously
there's intention there. You'rethe artist, you did it, but do
(20:57):
you necessarily know when you'remaking something more or less
obvious or concrete in a piecethat you're working on?
Elle Billing (21:09):
yes, and. so I have some pieces where it's a
mix. Um, I'm actually teachingworkshops this year about my art
process. My art process is verymuch about embracing duality,
because it there, it is a verymuch a mix of intention and
intuition and structure andserendipity. Okay, so, like,
(21:35):
there will be times where I tearout specific pages of
Shakespeare and save them for aspecific layer. I did a piece in
my Ophelia collection called Iam no brother. No. not brother.
I am no mother, I am no bride. Icombine those into one word, I
am no brother. I did it again. Iam no mother, I am no-- I need a
(21:57):
nap really bad. This is whathappens. See, this is what
happens when I've had a migraineall, my words just..
Ricki Cummings (22:02):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (22:02):
I am no mother. I am no bride. You wear yours with
the difference. And Ispecifically used one monologue
from Ophelia, and photo copiedit four times and made four
flower petals with that excerpt.
And that was on the top layer;that was an intentional choice,
yeah, because there was a linein that speech that mentions the
(22:25):
flower rue, right, and I'm --that was the flower that I made
out of that those petals, thatwas a very intentional choice,
because it was the whole meaningof the painting was centered on
that flower. But likeunderneath, there were other
pages from the book from Hamletthat were just pages I tore out
and used as collage layers. WhenI did my Berenstein Bears
(22:49):
collection, the illustrationsthat I layered under the paint
were all intentionally chosenfor each Painting. When I did
the buffalo paintings from ourtrip across Wyoming.
Ricki Cummings (23:05):
I don't know that I recall those ones
Elle Billing (23:09):
we never saw a single bison.
Ricki Cummings (23:11):
Oh yeah,
Elle Billing (23:12):
that one I used pages from a children's
encyclopedia about the WildWest. I painted over it with
some acrylic paint, and thenscratched back with the end of
my paint with the butt end of mypaintbrush, one line about the
like, I paid attention to whereI was painting and what the text
was, and I scraped back justover one line of text about the
(23:35):
disappearance of the bison. Sosometimes it's very intentional,
like, I want you to see thisline, yeah. And sometimes it's
Ricki Cummings (23:42):
Yeah, just, like, the stuff I'm
working on now for The FailureExperiment, it's just a lot of
random, weird old text about how
Elle Billing (23:50):
right. Like, I look for really interesting
the internet works. And so Ihave, like, glaze over it. Like
I've glazed over it with a bunchof different layers. And so,
like, you can read it if youwant to, but you don't have to,
but if you did, it would belike, Oh, that's that's
interesting. It adds to themeaning, but it's not necessary,
(24:11):
yeah? So it's a mix, becausesometimes happy accidents happen
books. I don't just buyanything. Except dictionaries,
and you end up with a word youdon't expect, like, just
dictionary pages, and the wordetiquette shows up a piece where
you also used a page from EmilyPost's Etiquette. Like, like,
Oh, happy accidents. I leavespace for that too. And
sometimes I buy specific like, Iget all my books at the thrift
(24:35):
store or from, like, librarydiscard piles. And like, I will
find a book and be like, Oh, I'mbuying this, and I, I'm gonna
I'll always buy. But, like, thebook has to, like, call to me.
wait for like-- like, I have anabnormal psychology book from
the 60s. I've used a couplepages out of it, one of the
pages, couple of pages onaddiction, yeah. But like, at
some point there's gonna be,there's gonna be a reason I need
(25:00):
that book.
It has to be something like, Ihave a, like, a 1937 Etiquette
by Emily Post. I have onbecoming a woman from 1954
Ricki Cummings (25:19):
Oh, geez.
Elle Billing (25:20):
Oh, it's awful.
Ricki Cummings (25:21):
Yeah, I bet
Elle Billing (25:22):
my favorite chapter is the chapter called
"Danger!" and it's aboutlesbians,
Ricki Cummings (25:31):
those wily lesbians, witchcraft and
communism.
Unknown (25:36):
So like, the book has to call to me and it'll and then
something will find its way into
Ricki Cummings (25:43):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (25:43):
into my work.
Ricki Cummings (25:45):
I was looking for a way to get this question
in a nice like, segue. But no,oh, I think that moment has the
the moment for segue has passed,so I'm just good like. So what
does a normal, quote, unquote,normal day for you look like?
Elle Billing (26:08):
Oh!
Ricki Cummings (26:09):
from a care standpoint and-or from an
artistic standpoint,
Elle Billing (26:13):
okay, weekday or weekend?
Ricki Cummings (26:17):
Well, there's more week days, so probably
that.
Elle Billing (26:20):
So my dog will get me up around seven to feed her.
And my dad's usually still homeat seven doing breakfast or
whatever, or taking his nap, hispost breakfast nap before he
leaves to do farming stuff. SoI'll feed the dog. I'll say hi
to Dad, I'll go back to bed, andthen Winkie will wake me up
(26:41):
again to go potty, because, ofcourse, she can't, can't combine
those two, no, gosh, no. Gonnamake me go up the stairs two
more times. So anyway, we do thefood and go into the bathroom,
and then she lets me sleep in,usually till about 930 and then
I get up. twice a week I shower,which that's a whole thing,
(27:01):
because it just, I have to takeseated showers. That's why I
only do it twice a week. Takes alot of energy. I take my meds, I
brush my teeth. I do all that. Iget my mom's meds out and ready
so that whenever she wakes up,which is anytime between 11 and
2, they're out and ready. And Idon't have to, like, remember,
later to get them. I just getthem out and ready for her. I
(27:21):
eat breakfast and have mycoffee, depending on how I'm
feeling, I might start paintingor reading or working on
something on my computer rightaway, or I might kill time on my
phone trying to fire my brain upuntil dad gets home at noon. I
usually sit and have lunch withhim, do the crossword maybe, or
(27:43):
just talk to him about what'sgoing on that day or during the
week, when he goes for his nap,I either also nap or paint or
work on my computer somewhere.
When I'm on the computer, it'sdoing like other business stuff,
emails, podcast stuff, workingon my website, making things for
my spoonies or for my art class,whatever. At some point I do
(28:06):
take a two hour nap. At somepoint my mom does wake up. I
make sure she eats something andgets enough water. At Five I
feed the dog again, and then at
7 (28:18):
30 I have to go to work. So sometime between 5:00 and 7:30 I
also eat supper, and then at7:30 I go to work, I come home
at 10 (28:26):
30 and I get ready for bed. So it's just a lot of like
balancing my energy betweenchecking on my mom, keeping an
eye on my dog, and like doingstudio and computer activities
and napping, and it's like, itdoesn't sound like I do very
(28:47):
much. Why would I need a twohour nap? I just can't do much.
Like two hours on the computerand my brain is toast.
Ricki Cummings (28:53):
Yeah, actually, I was gonna ask you how.
Actually, I'm gonna back up andpreface this a little bit like
one of the things that artistsin general don't like talking
about is like the business partof being an artist, especially
an independent artist, and sohow does your disability affect
(29:13):
the admin and business andcomputery related part of doing
your art?
Elle Billing (29:19):
Yeah, I have such limited energy. Like, right now
I am in creation mode. That'sall I want to be doing. I don't
want to be on the computer,because switching tasks takes as
much energy as doing a task,like switching brain modes. But
I'm also, like, I need to doother things, so I try to pick,
(29:40):
like, one or two days just to doadmin, and then the rest of the
time I ignore my computer andjust paint or I'll do admin
during my break at work atnight, like catch up on emails
while I'm waiting for cans tocool. It's hard. for. For the
(30:00):
normies, right? The ableds,running a small business is a
more than a full time job.
Ricki Cummings (30:05):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (30:06):
I can't even work a part time job. So, like, I
have good support. I have peoplewho I can ask for help. I have
people who can do things for me,if I ask them, Who can help me
get things done. But I stillcan't put, like, even with help
I don't there's no way to put in40 hours a week doing all the
things that need to be done,which is why my business is not
(30:28):
as far as I want it to be. But Ialso have to redefine success
for myself because of what I'mdoing and what I can do. So
like, I'm happy with how far myart practice is. Like, I'm
really happy with the paintingsI'm making right now. I'm really
happy with the work you and Iare doing together
collaboratively. Spoonie Studiois something I'm really proud
(30:51):
of. The workshops that I'mteaching. This is the, like, the
founders year of my artworkshops where, like, I have
the bones of the of the programand like these, this first group
of people that's gonna gothrough the workshops with me
are kind of helping me put themeat on the bones. And like, I
(31:13):
went back and looked, like I hadto do the transcript for the
first workshop, and I was doingit at the table, and mom was
eating something, and I liftedup my headphone, and I was like,
Hey, Mom, did you know that I'msmart? Like, I was listening
back to, like, what I had saidduring the workshop. And I was
like, huh, that was really good.
Like, I because, like, sometimesI think I don't know, what am I
(31:37):
even doing, right? Like fouryears ago I blew up my life, or
my life blew up, and I got thehell out of there, and I still
have moments. What am I doing?
Ricki Cummings (31:50):
Yeah
Elle Billing (31:51):
have I been painting long enough to be
teaching other people about it?
Well, I'm not teaching thempainting lessons. This is like
process, how to find the why ofyour art, how to create more
meaning, how to make art thatmatters in a time when we need
that. I know about that. That'sthe type of art I've always
made. I when I did theater, Iwas all about theater for social
(32:12):
change. When I was writingpoetry, it was poetry with some
guts. It was, you know,
Ricki Cummings (32:18):
yeah
Elle Billing (32:19):
now I'm just doing it with visual art, I know what
I'm talking about. Listeningback, I was like, Oh, I do know
what I'm talking about. This isokay. I'm doing okay. I'm just
doing it slower, and that'sokay. I don't know if that
answered your question. I thinkso. I guess my disability makes
the business side of my artslow, slow, yeah, yeah. It's
(32:43):
just it makes it much slower.
Ricki Cummings (32:46):
Well, that I think moves us into our last
question, because we're gettingclose to out of time here. So
what is one true thing that youhave learned from your art
practice,
Unknown (32:59):
that there is, it doesn't matter if it seems that
someone has always, has alreadydone something, because, like,
no one has done it exactly theway that I'm going to do it,
with my, like, with myexperiences and my perspectives.
There was one, there was at onepoint a couple years ago when I
(33:19):
was still putting together,like, what is it that I do? And
I was like, well, it's sort oflike cubism, except queer, and
it adds the fourth dimension oftime, okay? Because cubism, it
was like, like, all threedimensions, right? Represented
in the two dimensional plane,all perspectives at once. Blah,
blah, blah. Well, I have issueswith Picasso. He's he was a dick
Ricki Cummings (33:42):
documented.
That's, that's, that's fact hewas a terrible person.
Elle Billing (33:45):
He from his own mouth, yeah. Plus, I just read
Hannah Gatsby's memoir, and shegets into that again too, where
she's like, Picasso was a dick.
So it's on the front of my brainagain. And I'm like, But, and,
but and, but this my style isn'tCubism. You wouldn't look at it
and go, Oh, it's a piece ofcubist art, but, like,
philosophically, that's what I'mdoing with the timeline, right?
(34:06):
And I, I was like, but I don'twant to call it that, or even
say "it's like, cubism, but"because that's already been
done. And I was like, but noone's done it the way I've done
it. And on the one hand, I don'thave to do something completely
original that nobody's ever donebefore,
Ricki Cummings (34:26):
yeah,
Elle Billing (34:27):
like, right now I'm working on a painting of
Saint Agnes, right? SaintAgatha, sorry, Saint Agatha of
Sicily. And a lot of people havepainted her,
Ricki Cummings (34:36):
many people
Elle Billing (34:37):
many people. No one has painted her the way I've
painted her. It's okay if I'mdoing Saint Agatha, you know,
because the way I'm doing her isdifferent, and the reason I'm
doing her might not be the samereason someone else is doing
her. It's okay if there's onemore Saint Agatha painting, and
it's okay if it's hot pink
Ricki Cummings (34:52):
better! in my opinion. But
Elle Billing (34:55):
we'll see. We'll see how this turns out. We're
kind of at the awkward stageright now. So I guess the one
true thing is, like, no one'sgonna do it the same way that
I'm doing it or the same wayanyone else is doing it. What's
the more important is that it'strue. Like, I think I would
rather create something that'sderivative and true than
(35:20):
something that's completelyoriginal and like, doesn't mean
anything. And I think that'swhere I end, where I fall on a
Gen AI too. I mean, among, Imean, there's lots of ways to
tackle that too. But like, froman artistic standpoint, it's not
true. Like, there's no truth,and that's why it just-- can't
(35:40):
agree?
Ricki Cummings (35:40):
No, it's, it's not that I don't agree. It's
that I totally agree completely.
But I want to make sure-- thisis going to add several minutes
to our runtime, I'm sure. Butlike, I want to make sure that
we have a definition of truth.
Elle Billing (35:59):
Oh, right.
Ricki Cummings (36:01):
Because, I mean, obviously we're not going to
define an abstract concept likethat, but like, what does truth,
I guess, mean to you?
Elle Billing (36:09):
Okay, and... truth in the same way that I ask
people, What is one true thingyou've learned from your art
practice? I took a workshop onpainting Cloudscapes. They were
beachy Cloudscapes. It meantnothing to me. Like tropical
escapes to me, I'm like, whywould I paint a beach scape? It
doesn't mean anything to me if Ichange it to a desert landscape.
(36:33):
That's true for me. I lived inIdaho. I've been there. I have a
connection to that landscape. Iadd some windmills, cows, you
know, that, or sagebrush. Thatto me, lots of people paint
landscapes. I kind of likepainting landscapes sometimes,
(36:53):
not all the time. There has tobe something true about it for
me to want to do it. I didn'twant to paint flowers until
after my grandma died, there wasno there was no motivating
factor for me to paint florals.
My grandma died, then there wassome truth to them. That's one
of the reasons why I'm sointerested in the one true thing
question this this season, isbecause one true thing is a huge
(37:17):
piece of my art practice, like Ihave to have something true in
each of my paintings.
Ricki Cummings (37:26):
Is that truth, factual or emotional to you? In
that sense
Elle Billing (37:36):
that's a really good question, and I don't know,
Ricki Cummings (37:38):
it sort of reminds me of that very old
writer's advice, write what youknow, you know,
Elle Billing (37:46):
right? Which is what I used to teach my
students, to write what youknow. Yeah
Ricki Cummings (37:51):
at the same time, like, if you only stick to
what you know, then you're goingto get you're possibly going to
get stagnant. And so like theidea, I think I like the idea of
just including one true thing,rather than making that like the
whole of the subject.
Elle Billing (38:10):
You said, Write what you know, right? Well, I
didn't know cyberpunk, but eachof the paintings in this series
has one true thing in it, likeI'm doing a cyberpunk Saint
Agatha. She's the patron saintof breast cancer survivors and
breast cancer patients. That'sthe one true thing. Is my family
history of breast cancer and thefact that I have to go in every
six months for imaging like,write what I know, paint what I
(38:33):
know I don't know cyberpunk.
This is intellectually difficultfor me. I'm stretching myself.
But there's still something true
Ricki Cummings (38:39):
So I I guess your one true thing is
in each of the paintings.
Elle Billing (38:43):
one true thing
Ricki Cummings (38:45):
true things.
Yeah, that's interesting. Wow.
Now that, now that we'vesufficiently run over time, I
think I can say thank you forbeing on your podcast.
Elle Billing (38:58):
Thank you for having me on my podcast. This
was fun.
Ricki Cummings (39:04):
Yeah,cool, cool.
Elle Billing (39:09):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf to get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit Hoorf podcast dotcom. Join the Blessed Herd of St
Winkus.By signing up for ournewsletter, you can get Hoorf
episodes delivered directly toyour inbox. What's more, you get
(39:30):
invitations to our monthlyCoffee & Biscuits Chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that at Hoorfpodcast dot com. if you become a
patron for only $3 a month, youcan support the creation of this
podcast, help pay my editor andjoin a community of caregivers
(39:51):
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf.
Until next time, be excellent toeach other. Hoorf is hosted by
Elle Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings
@Rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
(40:12):
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio, LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms.
@HoorfPodcast, at H, O, O, R, Fpodcast, I did it again.
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