November 11, 2024 • 43 mins
Content note: this episode contains swearing, discussions of death and grief
On this episode, Elle welcomes Joris Grey, a leadership coach working with queer entrepreneurs to build businesses that align with their values. Joris shares his perspective on unlearning toxic masculinity, and how that journey shapes his approach to authentic leadership. We explore the wisdom of listening to our bodies (even when capitalism tells us not to), and dive into the real challenges of being visibly queer in professional spaces. The conversation takes us into some deeper waters as we discuss the rising threats to LGBTQ rights, both in Joris's home country of the Netherlands and globally. But at its heart, our discussion keeps circling back to the importance of authenticity and community for personal and collective liberation.
Links to work with Joris, as well as all other resource links, are **in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elle Billing (00:00):
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
Radical Care in a Late Capitalist Heckscape.
Ricki Cummings (01:02):
Hello, Ricki on the intro this week, our guest
this week is Joris Gray. He/him. Joris is a leadership coach
for queer entrepreneurs whodon't fit the norm and want to
build a business and team theydesire. With 12-plus years of
business experience and sixyears of experience
coachingentrepreneurs, Joris isable to provide clarity,
(01:24):
strategy, effectivecommunication, and leadership
tools to help queerentrepreneurs move the needle on
their business goals and createbusinesses that make selling
easy and joyful. When Joris isnot growing businesses, he is
walking his dog, reading stacksof books--current favorites are
sci fi and homoerotic novels--orthinking about food. This one's
(01:46):
been a long time in the making.
Welcome to Hoorf.
Elle Billing (01:51):
Oh, thank God for Ricki. Ricki is the best,
speaking of people who have ourbacks and do the ops
Joris Grey (01:57):
absolutely
Elle Billing (01:58):
so I went through a phase in middle school where I
was trying to figure out what mynickname was supposed to be. Is
supposed to be. I was namedafter my dad, whose name is
Daniel; my full given like,government / birth name is
Danielle. And at the time, Iwanted to have an original name,
of course, because I was like,Well, I'm named after my
dad--which now I think is cool,right, as an adult, and I have a
really solid relationship withmy dad. I'm like, my name kicks
(02:20):
ass.
Joris Grey (02:21):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (02:21):
And the reason I go by Elle is kind of to sort of
separate my business life frommy personal life, so that I have
this like online persona who'sdifferent from my my home
personal life. But also becauseI worked at a Deaf school for a
long time, and my sign name, myname in ASL, was Elle. So I went
by Elle for so many years,starting in college all the way
(02:43):
through my first career, that Ijust, I like that name. So like,
I like to go by that name. Itsounds nice.
Joris Grey (02:49):
Does it feel like a nick nickname? Ish to you?
Elle Billing (02:52):
It feels like a name. It feels like I have two
names, and both of them arefine, and they're separate
identities, kind of, but they'reboth me, but I'm also gender
fluid, so like, it works to havetwo names.
Joris Grey (03:04):
It works so good for you, though,
Elle Billing (03:05):
yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, this fits. Plus
Ricki's spouse is also namedDanielle, and goes by Dani. And
so when we're in the same spacetogether, we share the name
Danielle, and it's just a lotless confusing for everybody.
Joris Grey (03:21):
It's so convenient, right?
Elle Billing (03:23):
Yeah, it just worked out really well. Danielle
was a very popular name in theMidwest in the 80s, and so to be
able, for us, to be able to justsort of have part of the name,
and already that was alreadykind of established when we got
together, and it wasn'tsomething we had to figure out.
But when I was in middle school,I wanted a nickname,
Joris Grey (03:43):
yeah, I get it.
Elle Billing (03:44):
And when I was born, my parents thought they
were gonna call me Danni.
Joris Grey (03:48):
That's a good name for you.
Elle Billing (03:50):
Yeah, it never stuck. It never stuck. There's
like two or three people in thewhole world that call me Danni.
They didn't know if I was gonnabe a boy or girl, I was either
going to be Daniel or Danielle.
They're like, well, Danni fits.
And that's what my dad went byhis whole like, growing up years
and they just wanted, theythought it would be really
(04:10):
special. And I just, I, as alittle kid, I wasn't a Danni.
It's like, either you are, youaren't,
Joris Grey (04:15):
yeah
Elle Billing (04:16):
but my sister had nicknames coming out of
everywhere. I was like, well,that's not fair. And she still
does like, but now I call her byher full name most of the time,
and she didn't realize that Iwas doing that. And one time she
thought I was being reallycondescending. And she's like,
why'd you call me Katrina? It'slike, I always call you Katrina.
She's like, what? And my partnerwas like, yeah, she calls you
(04:38):
that all the time. She's like,Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you
were, being I thought you werebeing mean.
Joris Grey (04:45):
I wonder if this is part of many, like, people who
go through transition, or aretrans, or non binary, trans,
like that they're so focused ontheir nicknames when they're
like younger because, like, ourlanguage in our times weren't
like they were, were developedaround trans identities and
stuff. So I wonder if like thata focus on nicknames is true for
(05:07):
many people. I need to askcurious about
Elle Billing (05:10):
I don't know. I'm curious about that too, because
I definitely was going through alike, Well, who am I?
Joris Grey (05:16):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (05:17):
like, what do I want my name to be? I wanted it
to be something --vWell, I alsowanted to be a writer. And so I
wanted something like, catchy metoo.
Joris Grey (05:25):
Like I was always thinking about my writer name,
Elle Billing (05:29):
and there was already a Danny, a boy Danny, in
my class. And so I, I reallywanted to be Danni B. I wanted
it to be, I wanted the lastinitial to be part of the name.
And I knew that Danni had tohave an "I" in it because that
was, like, different than theboy, Danny,
Joris Grey (05:44):
yeah, yep,
Elle Billing (05:45):
and Danny B. And I could never get my teachers to
say the whole thing together,when they were calling out paper
names, and they'd say Danni, andthey're like, he's in the other
class. I'm like, No, that's meand it's Danni B, and they just
never do it. And so I gave up.
Joris Grey (06:00):
Oh, yeah. So good.
So yeah.
Elle Billing (06:03):
So and my sister started kind of giving me
nicknames in high school, andsome of them, those have stuck,
which between the two of us, butno one else calls me those so,
but my sister and I have lots ofnicknames between us, because
that growing up together as ouronly playmates thing, yeah, does
that
Joris Grey (06:19):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (06:20):
So anyway, welcome to Hoorf. It's nice to have you
here.
Joris Grey (06:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
Elle Billing (06:27):
We have been trying to do this for months,
and I am so glad that we madethis work. It is the beginning
of the day for me. It is the endof the day for you,
Joris Grey (06:37):
it is yeah.
Elle Billing (06:38):
So we are going to get this done and dusted and
then you can go to bed.
Joris Grey (06:43):
Yeah, so I have some other appointments after this,
but, yeah,
Elle Billing (06:46):
oh, okay. What time is it there?
Joris Grey (06:49):
It's six.
Elle Billing (06:50):
Oh, it's not that late. Okay, okay, I thought it
was, I thought it was later,
Joris Grey (06:54):
yeah, it feels late, like time for bed.
Elle Billing (06:57):
Yeah, usually by the end of the day I'm ready to,
like, change into sweats and notdo anything same, like after 3pm
like, don't call me, like,
Joris Grey (07:08):
yeah. It's like, I am in my sweats. I am not facing
the world. I'm gonna eat icecream,
Elle Billing (07:14):
yeah. So I am happy to have you here today. I
am here in North Dakota. You arethere in the Netherlands, and so
we've been trying to make thiswork with time zones and tech
issues, and today's the day. Itmust mean it's like an
auspicious day since we finallymade it work. Yeah, so I am
going to ask, how have youreceived care this week?
Joris Grey (07:37):
I love this question, and every time the
answer was different, because wekept on rescheduling, right?
It's, it's a different question,yeah, yeah, it's such a good
it's like a good one to check inwith yourself daily. So one of
my it's starting grim already,like one of my walking buddies
died a week ago.
Elle Billing (07:56):
Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry.
Joris Grey (07:58):
Yeah, thank you. In a really horrible way. So I got
a lot of support from friendsand like, it's one of those
moments in time where it matterswho shows up for you, and it
also matters if you ask forhelp, right? I'm not the most
vulnerable guy. People who meetme say, like, you're such a
(08:20):
vault, like you're so closed offto people, so I started learning
to show my vulnerability. And Ithink as a guy, that's really
tough, like for everybody, butit's not gender specific, but
for guys specifically, there'sthis toxic masculinity culture
where you cannot show like theinside of your heart, right? And
I think especially for trans menis really hard, because we think
(08:42):
we need to be really toxic,really strong and masculine and
really out there, very toxic aswell with girls and I started
delearning All the things that Iknow about masculinity, like a
couple of years ago. So this isone of those things, like, I
want to be vulnerable. I want tobe a guy who you can build on,
especially because I'm aleadership coach, I want people
(09:04):
to see that I lead by example,and that is also talking about
grief, talking about myvulnerable spaces. And I asked a
friend this morning to go to theplace where my walking friend
died, and to lay down someflowers and candles, and I
specifically asked for a friendto come along so that we as guys
(09:26):
could just cry there together,and that he could see me in a
vulnerable place. And that was astep for me, like honestly in
friendships. And he was there,like he showed up. I know, how
fucking busy this dude is.
Instead, he was there outside ofmy office, and we walked
together to the place where mywalking friend died, and I don't
know just people are reachingout and checking in, how you're
(09:48):
doing, all these things. Thatwas how I received care.
Elle Billing (09:52):
Yeah, that is some really deep care to be able to
be like, held and witnessed andto have space, to be vulnerable
like that.
Joris Grey (10:03):
Yeah, it takes a huge level of trust for me. I'm
unlearning like, my defaultwould be to run away from people
and just hide or, like, pretendthat I'm super strong and and I
am like people, when you meet melike I'm a super masculine guy.
But that doesn't mean that Icannot be vulnerable in my
strength, and that could be mystrength. So yeah, yeah, default
(10:26):
would be running away.
Elle Billing (10:28):
That is a really profound example of receiving
care. Wow. Thank you for sharingthat
Joris Grey (10:33):
you're so welcome.
Elle Billing (10:33):
I think even sharing that is another level of
vulnerability.
Joris Grey (10:37):
Yeah, it is, yeah, because I want to be perceived
as a certain like person, likewe all do, right? And for me,
especially at the start of mytransition, I had this image of
myself, how I wanted to beperceived, but that was all
embedded in toxic masculinity.
I'm like, That's not like, I'mnot that person, and still, I'm
(10:57):
trying to show up, even in likeprofessional, more professionals
having such as this, trying toshow up as the leader that I
want to be led by.
Elle Billing (11:12):
No, I get that. I think, nope. I don't actually
have a thought there. I thinkyou said it really well. I don't
need to add to that.
So you you talked about being aleader and showing up as the
leader that you want to be ledby. Can you talk a little bit
about your work and what you dowith leadership work?
Joris Grey (11:30):
Yeah, absolutely. So I work with queer businesses
specifically, I think I want tostart there, because that's
where also the leadership tiesin.
Elle Billing (11:37):
Yeah, perfect,
Joris Grey (11:38):
specifically with queer businesses, because I
think we are our marginalizedgroup in and of itself, right?
Especially as business owners,you are already like in a place
where you need to overcomeyourself constantly when it
comes to sales or puttingyourself out there. And I think
for queer businesses, inspecific, the whole world tells
(11:58):
you that you don't belong.
Right? Every day we get taughtlike we don't belong. We're not
welcome here. We're like not thenorm, because we are a
marginalized group, and I see somany queer business owners
struggle with that piece alonein and of themselves, and they
don't believe that they could besuccessful as a queer business
(12:20):
owners, because they don'tfundamentally believe that they
belong. And there's not yet manyexamples for queer business
owners, of successful leaders,for example, in queer business
spaces. And I saw so many queerbusinesses that wanted to find
their place in success and inthe online world, offline world,
(12:42):
but they ended up in all these,like, very gendered spaces,
Elle Billing (12:48):
yes, yes!
Joris Grey (12:51):
like, either women's groups or men's groups and [??]
or like even their language isso exclusive and like they're
queer people are excluded fromthese spaces just by how, like,
how it's market all thesebusiness groups and business
coaches and business leaders. SoI wanted to change that, and I
(13:14):
wanted to show also, like queerbusinesses, that you can be
really fucking successful as abusiness owner, especially when
you're queer. And I think inaddition to that, I believe that
we as queer business owners dothings a little different. We
need to learn. We can learn wehave to. You don't have to do
anything, but you can learn thatit's more so about in building
(13:37):
support networks and communitiesand doing like a rising tide
lifts all ships, but especiallyfor queer business owners, we
can learn that we can do thisall together successfully, and
then profit is the cherry ontop.
Elle Billing (13:53):
I've definitely noticed the the gender nature of
of business groups. There's athere's a group I want to apply
to be like, do one of theirmonthly keynotes too, and it's
like, the women's connect group.
And I already know going in thatit's going to be an environment
where I don't quite fit in,
Joris Grey (14:11):
yeah
Elle Billing (14:12):
like, right off the bat, and I'm working on my
proposal, and I'm like, you saidqueer business owners, we do
things differently, and wealready have kind of a
difference about us and what wedo and what we talk about, and
that's going to be part of myproposal is like, Yes, I'm
perceived as a woman, like I'mgender fluid femme. I don't
(14:35):
quite fit in this group, but Ithink what I have to offer will,
like, get them to think aboutthings a little differently, and
I still think I fit enough to,like, be really powerful for
your group. Yeah, I don't thinkI'll fit in 100% of the time.
I'm probably not going to comeback, like, I don't want to come
every month. Like, that's,that's, I might be a little
uncomfortable,
Joris Grey (14:55):
yeah,
Elle Billing (14:56):
but I really, but I really think that, like, how I
do things, and think aboutthings is important for other
people to see
Joris Grey (15:02):
absolutely, because they cannot adapt their blind
spots if no one points them outto them, right?
Elle Billing (15:08):
Yep.
Joris Grey (15:09):
So I had to, like mask so much early on in my
transition, like just dealingwith gendered language alone,
because I was only in femalebusiness groups at the time,
Elle Billing (15:23):
yep
Joris Grey (15:23):
and I had to, like, really sit through all that
gendered language just to getsome business support. And it's
not the fault of, like, thebusiness coach or anything.
There's no fault here. It's justoutdated, an outdated way of
doing leadership consultancy andbusiness consultancy.
Elle Billing (15:42):
Yes, you do somatics in your leadership
training and like personally aswell. That's a word that I've
heard a lot more lately than Iused to hear it. And I don't
know if it's one of those thingsthat once you hear it, you keep
hearing it like you just noticeit once you know it, or if it's
actually becoming moreintegrated into what people are
doing.
Joris Grey (16:02):
I think it's both.
Elle Billing (16:03):
Is it both? Okay?
So, and I remember when we wereemailing and prepping for this,
you were like, I would love totalk about somatics. Like,
please ask me about somatics. Sothis is me asking about
somatics. What can you do? Like,what is it like give us a crash
course and why you love it andwhat it does for us. We don't
(16:24):
have a weekend retreat here togo through it, but we have a few
minutes on a podcast.
Joris Grey (16:32):
So normally, I work with with people for 12 months,
right? So,
Elle Billing (16:36):
yeah, this is not a 12 month interview, no.
Joris Grey (16:39):
And I have to work with people for 12 months to
fully teach them how their bodyworks for them. That is the main
part of what I teach, what I dowith a lot of people is your
body can never lie to you, butwe don't even know how to tune
into our bodies to get thewisdom that we need out. Most of
(17:00):
the people that I work withdon't even know how to notice
their own body. Does my stomachgurgle? When does it gurgle?
When does my heart skip a beat?
Or what is that tight sensationin my belly? Do I have a tight
sensation in my belly? What doesthat tell me, without adding
stories? So what I differentiateon a lot is that there's so much
(17:21):
mind clutter. As anentrepreneur, and especially a
leader, when you start to leadpeople, shit blows up in your
face like you get triggered sofucking much.
Elle Billing (17:33):
Oh my gosh, well, and not even just leading
people, but just like doing ourjobs, right? My Instagram and my
Threads got suspended last week.
Yeah, like, I laid down for anap and they were there, and I
woke up two hours later and theywere gone. And you want to talk
about, like, what is my bodytelling me?
Joris Grey (17:51):
Oh, tell me.
Elle Billing (17:52):
So, what did it do? Oh, I ended up with like a
rock. It felt like a rock rightin below my solar plexus at the
top of my stomach. And I waslike, oh, okay, so I have a
stomach ache. Because, like, Iam, I think, fairly in tune with
my body. I have chronicillnesses and I get migraines
and so, like, I definitelynotice when things change to the
(18:13):
point where people are like,you, you couldn't feel that. I'm
like, No, I really did.
Joris Grey (18:17):
People are surprised, right, that they
actually learn about their ownbodies and the stories that we
make up about them.
Elle Billing (18:23):
Yeah. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm anxious.
Like, this is giving me anxiety,because I've spent six years
building up my Instagram for myart business. Like, this is a
huge loss for me, and I don'tknow what's going to happen. I
don't like the unknown. Iactually, I had to go to work my
part time job. I had a littlebreak. Usually, if I that
feeling doesn't go away, I canusually, kind of dance it out.
(18:43):
If I do some -- I'm not a gooddancer. I'm like, an emotional
dancer. I do it in my studio allthe time. It's like, it's weird,
but no, it's perfect. I justmove my body the way it wants to
move, and I can usually get,like, close the stress cycle.
This is something new I've donein the last three years, and
kind of get feelings through mybody. And it didn't work, I felt
worse. It was an abdominalmigraine. I had to take one of
(19:08):
my emergency migraine meds tokind of get it to go away, but
it still held on for like threedays, and I ended up having to
take one of my second linemigraine medications to finally
get it to let go. But it wasdefinitely like a physical
response to an externalstressor. And I was like, wow,
I've invested too muchemotionally into Instagram.
Joris Grey (19:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Elle Billing (19:32):
And so I've just been kind of trying to, like,
work around it and just like,wait to see what happened, but
it is. It's really stressful
Joris Grey (19:43):
yeah, so this is exactly like, like on your own,
this is already stressful,right? But as soon as you bring
it into teams and your migrainesdetermine how the outcome of the
meeting will be, then everybodygets a migraine, right? Right?
Or. Like, when I was teachingthese exactly the attacks
(20:03):
started when I was teachingelementary school during Yeah,
right before the holidays, yep,yep. So I work a lot around
conflict, for example. Like, ifsomeone has a conflict, how do
you deal with it? Like, whatkind of sensations come up in
your body? do you let yourmigraines, for example,
determine how everybody shouldvote so that the meeting is
(20:26):
over, you can relate to that. Ordo you tend to your migraine
first and then have the meetingaccordingly? So we work a lot
around body symptoms and whatthey mean for you without
telling I asked, like, one of myclients said, like, Oh, I think
I'm stressed. I'm like, Are you?
And then eventually she learnedthat she wasn't stressed at all.
It was totally differentsymptoms you learn to navigate
(20:46):
on, like, the minor sensationsof her body. And it also comes
up when you do sales, and like,your body never lies to you,
right? When you find someoneicky, your body will tell you,
like, this is not a client foryou. And so we first learned to
tune in those sensations, andthen I start coaching.
Elle Billing (21:03):
That's that's really great. I mean, that was
something we had to work withour my students on when I was
working, because a lot ofstudents with sensory
disabilities will have otherdisabilities along with it, and
a lot of my students had neurodifferences, so like ADHD,
autism, things like that, and soit can be really hard to notice
(21:24):
and identify body sensations andnotice and identify emotions. So
we did a lot of sensory therapyand things like that, and I
benefited from that as well. Iwasn't diagnosed with ADHD until
I was 36 years old, but let metell you, I learned a lot from
the sensory therapist beforethat, and it was like, this
(21:46):
should have been a clue.
Joris Grey (21:48):
And like looking back, it was.
Elle Billing (21:51):
And, you know, maybe he knew that I had ADHD
before I knew. I think a lot ofpeople knew before I knew. I
think maybe I was the lastperson to know,
Joris Grey (22:02):
or people didn't have the words for you as a
human
Elle Billing (22:05):
right. But like that whole what is being able to
identify a feeling? And yeah,either a physical feeling or an
emotional feeling, that's andyes, I think especially, I don't
know what Dutch schools werelike, but I know for sure, in
American schools, we startreally early, teaching kids to
ignore their bodies.
Joris Grey (22:24):
Same here, like
Elle Billing (22:25):
by not letting them go to the bathroom. I think
it starts so early, telling kidsyou don't get to go pee,
Joris Grey (22:31):
yeah, or you have to raise your hand to pee, or you
can only go two times a day. AndI'm like, No, so.
Elle Billing (22:37):
yeah. And that was one of the things that I did in
my classroom, where, yes,definitely, in elementary school
you can pee whenever you have topee, you have a small bladder,
Joris Grey (22:45):
yeah.
Elle Billing (22:46):
And my classroom had a bathroom attached to it,
so like, why wouldn't I let yougo? But even in middle school
and high school, there were someteachers who were, like, really,
really strict about it. And Iwas like, You know what? I want
you to trust your body, and I'mgonna trust you to trust your
body, if you trust me to keep asafe classroom and stuff, like
(23:07):
this is a two way street. I'mgoing to trust that you're not
going to take advantage of arelaxed bathroom policy,
Joris Grey (23:14):
yeah
Elle Billing (23:14):
and just go all the time, and then you can trust
that I will let you go when yourbladder says that you need to
go,
Joris Grey (23:20):
I love that
Elle Billing (23:20):
and they were like, we can just go? I said,
you have to tell me where you'regoing. I would need to know. I
won't count you tardy. If youcome in at the beginning and
say, I need the bathroom, andthen you go, and then come in
after the bell,
Joris Grey (23:33):
yeah.
Elle Billing (23:34):
Like communication. Trust your body,
trust me. I trust you. Like thisis, this is what being an adult
is, and that's what I'm helpingyou do. So much of our problems,
at least here in the US asadults, with trusting our bodies
and not knowing when we're sickor ignoring when we're sick, so
much of that starts in school,
Joris Grey (23:55):
and you need to, like, be super sick to stay at
home and all these things,right? Show up when we have a
business, they blow up in ourface, like people have so many
strict professional, quote,unquote rules, and they come to
me because they want to createtheir business professionally.
So they want to uplevel andbecome professional. I'm like,
(24:16):
Okay, let's unlearn all thatshit, because you need to learn,
for example, if you're are inmeetings, you need to learn to
eat with your coworkers, and weshould learn to eat together as
a team, and we need to unlearnso much when we lead, because
otherwise you will get angry. Ijust posted this on Instagram.
(24:37):
You get angry because you didn'thave a snack, or you get angry
because you were angry at thebus stop, but you blow out that
anger on all your team membersbecause you think someone
triggers you, like in thatmeeting, and you cannot really
deal with the first feelings,like instead of the fifth person
you're meeting. So it's exactlyright. It's embedded in our
culture that we cannot trust ourbodies and also, we mismatch our
(25:02):
actions based on what we thinkour body is telling us. So yeah,
and that that can cost anorganization organization a lot
of fucking money.
Elle Billing (25:12):
Yeah,
Joris Grey (25:13):
right?
Elle Billing (25:14):
yeah, yep.
Joris Grey (25:16):
We fire the wrong person. We let conflict blow up.
We we are super overtired andand then we make a decision with
our money that's not reallyinformed. Well, all these
things, right?
Elle Billing (25:32):
Yeah, and you mentioned professionalism, and,
like,
Joris Grey (25:35):
Yes,
Elle Billing (25:36):
I immediately tense up because,
Joris Grey (25:39):
oh, you tense up good,
Elle Billing (25:41):
well, because I don't, I don't like that word. I
pushed back against that a lotwhen I was teaching, because the
whole concept ofprofessionalism, I mean, maybe
you'll agree with me, but I'mnot going to assume until I say
it, professionalism tends to bevery sexist, racist, homophobic,
transphobic and classist andableist,
Joris Grey (26:04):
absolutely all these things.
Elle Billing (26:05):
Yeah. And so the farther you are from being a
cis, heterosexual, able bodiedwhite man, at least here in the
US, the harder you have to boxyourself in to be considered
professional
Joris Grey (26:22):
according to certain type of standards that don't fit
in the majority of businesses
Elle Billing (26:28):
No, and trying to be seen as, you know, a
professional woman or aprofessional queer or a
professional disabled person,you have to work really, really
hard to try and fit in thoseboxes. And you're never going
to,
Joris Grey (26:39):
yeah, no, and there's so many better ways to
do business and do itprofessional according to those
standards, because ourprofessional standards are
actually based embedded in care,right? Can we care for each
other? Can we tend to eachother? Can we create a support
network? Right? That isprofessionalism to me.
Elle Billing (26:58):
Yeah. And I always said that professionalism is an
ethic. It's not a look.
Joris Grey (27:03):
Oh, that's a good quote. I'm gonna steal that for
you, yeah?
Elle Billing (27:06):
Do it. Do it, please. I haven't trademarked
it. I think everyone shouldbelieve that
Joris Grey (27:11):
it's 100% right, it's ethics, right?
Elle Billing (27:14):
Yeah, and that's, that was part of the thing about
teaching too, is like, I don'thave to dress a certain way to
be a good teacher, I have toshow up and support my students
and follow the code of ethics.
Yes, I realize that I lookyounger than I am, and sometimes
when I wore jeans and flannel toschool, you couldn't tell the
difference between me and a highschooler, but all the high
(27:35):
schoolers knew I was theirteacher. So like,
Joris Grey (27:40):
yeah, it's how you show up for the other
Elle Billing (27:43):
Exactly. And I showed up for them. Like, and if
I was in the classroom and theycould trust me with their stuff,
that's what was important,
Joris Grey (27:52):
yeah,
Elle Billing (27:53):
not if my shirt had print on it, because I had
some of the funniest Englishteacher shirts ever. Like,
please don't tell me I can'twear a shirt with writing on it.
I spent years cultivating that Tshirt collection. I had one that
said THERE, THEIR, THEY'RE onit. Like, I think that'sfunny.
Joris Grey (28:14):
Yeah, it is. It is super funny. But this is also
like, this ties into theconversation around
professionalism, right? I thinkpeople get clog, clog their own
drain, so much that they cannotshow up for other humans
anymore. And some of my work isdeclutter that plug first. Like,
(28:34):
what's at your back end, right?
What's happening all there isway too complicated. Let's clean
that up first so that you canshow up for people again, so
that you can be human to human.
But with all that stuff thatyou're doing in your business, I
don't know what the god peopleare doing in their business. I'm
like, that's not a priority foryou. So let's first declutter
(28:55):
all that shit and then show upas a human again. So that needs
to happen, right? Then we canlearn, learn to human.
Elle Billing (29:02):
Yeah, oh, learn to human. I love that. I mean, I
use, like, automation and stufffor some of my and not even a
lot, because I'm an artist, andso the only things I can really
automate are, like, if someonesigns up for my newsletter, I
can automate it being added tomy CRM in a different in a
different program, right? Like,minimal automation, but like,
(29:22):
one of my grounding pillars formyself is like to be
relentlessly human.
Joris Grey (29:27):
Yeah
Elle Billing (29:28):
just show up authentically. So if that means
one of my newsletters goes outand it's a little weirder than I
mean, they're always a littleweirder than usual. Like, I
would rather alienate somebodywho decides that I'm just not
for them.
Joris Grey (29:43):
Oh, 100,000% Yeah.
Elle Billing (29:45):
than produced content that's just kind of meh.
Joris Grey (29:48):
Yeah, yeah. Like the Safe, safe-ish, yeah.
Elle Billing (29:52):
So, like, one of my my newsletters this summer
that went out, had a video of mydog in the car at the car wash,
because I. I guess that's notrelentlessly human, that's
relentlessly canine. But we hadtaken her to the vet, and they
had to sedate her to get imagesof her knee, because they had to
manipulate her knee to get theimages, and she had ruptured her
(30:13):
ACL and so she was in a lot ofpain, and so they sedated her,
and she had come out ofsedation, but she was still
really, really stoned. She waslike, really drugged, and
because she was in pain and hadbeen a really good girl at the
at the vet, we -- her twofavorite things are the drive,
are drive-throughs, fast fooddrive- throughs and car washes.
(30:36):
So we took her through thedrive-through, and there's,
like, the flashing lights andlike, all the whooshy, whooshy,
Joris Grey (30:42):
yeah.
Elle Billing (30:42):
And so I have this video of her, like, swaying back
and forth, like, with her eyeskind of glazed. And I was pretty
certain it was a religiousexperience for her. I'm pretty
sure she saw God.
Joris Grey (30:57):
aww
Elle Billing (30:59):
But it was so cute that I had them in my
newsletter. I'm like, you guys,it was such a bad week. She
injured her knee, like all thestuff went on. But here's this
really cute video of her in theat the car wash, just like,
totally zoned out, I said, andalso, we went and got a pup cup
at the ice cream place. Thoseare her two favorite things.
(31:21):
And, like, I thought that was somuch better than, like, whatever
professional, here's what I'mdoing in the studio.
Joris Grey (31:31):
But isn't that, like so many queer people need to
unlearn that image first, right?
They need to wash themselves offof like the cishet toxic culture
first to learn what their sortof professionalism is. So it's
hard for people like, it's suchbecause we there's so much fear
attached to it, right? Like,will I then make money? Can I
(31:51):
pay my bills? I think you canpay your bills a lot better if
you just show up in yourbusiness as you are, yeah, but
learn first what that lookslike.
Elle Billing (32:03):
I mean, my podcast was named by my dog. I think I
have a pretty good start showingup as myself.
Joris Grey (32:09):
Absolutely.
Elle Billing (32:11):
I don't think I ever learned how not to. I mean,
I tried. There were lots oftimes where I definitely tried
to put on this very professionalpersona,
Joris Grey (32:19):
yeah
Elle Billing (32:20):
especially like when I was student teaching, and
one of the staff at the schoolwas like, you really need to
rein it in. And I was like, Oh,that was really hard. That was a
really hard period for me. Waslike, not being me.
Joris Grey (32:35):
Yeah
Elle Billing (32:35):
I knew I didn't want to do that. I was like, I
can't Okay. I know right now Ineed to be at a school where I
get to be myself,
Joris Grey (32:41):
I think also our communication starts to be so
much more clear when we areauthentic, and we bring that to
our businesses like it clutter,Declutters all our all levels of
our business, if we learn toshow up authentically, because
then we can also attend tothese, set our boundaries, we
take accountability, we canauthentically delegate, because
(33:03):
we learn how to do these thingsas ourselves,
Elle Billing (33:08):
Right? And I think that's, you know, most of the
people I know who are nowsolopreneurs or business owners
or who have gone the route ofstarting their own business, I
think that's why most of us havedone it is because we we didn't
fit in wherever we were before,
Joris Grey (33:24):
True
Elle Billing (33:25):
or something happened in our life where we're
like, I can't do this anymore.
Joris Grey (33:29):
Yep, yep. That's me.
Like, I cannot work for a boss.
Like, please no.
Elle Billing (33:34):
Yeah. And like, for me, like, I was kind of
selling art on the side before,but I burnt out teaching, and I
got really ill, and I couldn'twork full time in that setting
or any setting anymore. I needmore time to rest, and that's
just how it has to be now. AndI've said before, I never wanted
to be a business owner. I justwanted to paint. I think I'm
(33:57):
kind of getting the hang ofbeing, of doing this, and
because I have a community thatI've found and sort of created
around me, because doing it bymyself is the worst.
Joris Grey (34:09):
But it's also it's impossible to do this on your
own, right?
Elle Billing (34:13):
I'm only a solopreneur on paper, like,
right? Huge team around me that,yep, you know, they're not paid
necessarily, but like, they'remy huge support team.
Joris Grey (34:24):
Yeah, I learned leaders to integrate, like, all
parts of their life so that theyare supported, right? Like, let
yourself be supported. Don't dothis alone. Yeah.
Elle Billing (34:36):
So I don't know what the landscape over there
is. I'm -- not like physicallandscape, but like what the the
culture is like in in theNetherlands or even greater
Europe, as far as LGBTQ rightsand accessibility and things
compared to the US, it's -- overhere, it's pretty scattershot.
It really depends on where youlive, like, because it's such a
(34:57):
huge like, the US is so vast,it's so huge, just state by
state and even city by city. Sowhat is it like there, as far as
since you work with queerbusinesses, do you work
exclusively with Dutchbusinesses, or do you have
international clients as well?
Is it more accessible and easierto be queer in the Netherlands?
Joris Grey (35:19):
These are two exactly good questions,
Elle Billing (35:21):
or is that too broad of a question to cover?
Like,
Joris Grey (35:25):
I'm, like, I'm a pretty good listener. I mean,
that's part of my job, right? SoI hear, yeah, like, what's the
cultural landscape? Do yousolely only work with Dutch
businesses?
Elle Billing (35:36):
Yeah? Sorry
Joris Grey (35:37):
You're there. Yeah,
Elle Billing (35:38):
that was a lot.
Sorry, I can't help it. I'm acurious girl.
Joris Grey (35:43):
No, it's perfect. So the first question, it's so not
easier here as a queer person.
Elle Billing (35:51):
Okay,
Joris Grey (35:51):
it gets worse and worse. I think by the day, it
gets worse to be a queer person.
Elle Billing (35:57):
So the rise of the far right is, yeah, global
problem.
Joris Grey (36:02):
It's a global fucking problem. It's been there
for a long time, but now it'slike kind of breaking breaking
through, I think
Elle Billing (36:11):
it out loud, like they're saying the quiet parts
out loud,
Joris Grey (36:14):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And everybody's allowing them.
So that was the fucked up thing,but it was far right for a long
time, especially in theNetherlands, like, the
Netherlands is not so what's itcalled? Like, progressive as
people think,
Elle Billing (36:26):
yep
Joris Grey (36:27):
especially around trans rights and LGBTQ rights,
like, it's horrible. I thinkit's I'm lucky that I have
insurance and stuff getscovered, but the rest like,
like, I can be open about, like,being trans on this podcast, for
example, but I cannot be in,like, quote, unquote, real life.
What does that even mean? I workInternational, so for me, this
(36:49):
is real life. But yeah, I can beopen about being trans in closed
circles. And I think that is sofucked up, right? I have to tell
a lot of people around me like,I am stealth. You cannot talk
about my transition. You cannottell people that I'm trans,
because it's very dangerous forme. Like, it's horrible. So that
(37:09):
is the first part. I think it'snot better. I think it's getting
worse. So,
Elle Billing (37:13):
yeah, yeah, that's a lot, like, God, in a lot of
places here too. Yeah, yeah. Ilived in Idaho before, like, for
many years, and then I moved. Imean, I grew up here in North
Dakota, and then I moved toIdaho, and then I'm back here,
and I'm lucky to be in a smalltown that's decently supportive.
I mean, really, small town, 800people, yeah,
Joris Grey (37:33):
that's small, yeah.
Elle Billing (37:35):
But, um, my partner hasn't had any problems
in my hometown, which is good.
She lives in Chicago. Ricki.
Ricki lives in Chicago most ofthe time, and Chicago is like
way better than where either ofus were living before, but
Idaho, there, that is not a funplace to live. I mean, my
friends are there. I love them.
I have a lot of happy memories,and I still feel homesick for
(37:58):
Idaho, but I don't think I couldever move back.
Joris Grey (38:03):
Yeah?
Elle Billing (38:04):
Like, it's just not safe. No. I mean, the far
right never left Idaho, like inother places where people are
surprised at the that they have,it's like, oh gosh, everything's
like, so radical now. And I'mlike, yeah, it's always been
that way. There's always beenpockets of that in Idaho that
never got quiet. Like, yeah,there's always been a contingent
(38:27):
of that very vocal in Idaho,
Joris Grey (38:29):
yeah.
Elle Billing (38:30):
So one last question,
Joris Grey (38:33):
yep
Elle Billing (38:33):
what is one true thing that you have learned from
your work with queer businesses?
Joris Grey (38:38):
Okay, that was not on the list.
Elle Billing (38:41):
Oh, I thought I included that one at the end.
I'm sorry.
Joris Grey (38:44):
No, no, don't, don't apologize. It's a good question.
Let me think; one true thing. Ohyeah, I think one true thing
that I learned from queerbusinesses. So I've only, I've
been a business coach for a longtime, like, I think seven? Six,
seven years or so. That's prettylong because it's pretty solid
business.
Elle Billing (39:03):
Oh yeah,
Joris Grey (39:03):
I've always done it on the side. It was always
myself, and then I grew intofull time coaching. But the last
year and a half, I startedworking solely only. Well,
majority of my clients arequeer. You can be like if you're
an ally, you are also welcome.
Absolutely. I workInternational, so that's good to
(39:24):
know, I think. But the one truething that I learned is that
queerness, in and of itself, isreally messy, but we don't allow
that mess in our businesses. Wethink we can exclude that
beautiful, precious, amazing,glorious mess. We think we can
(39:47):
exclude that from our companies.
But I think if we allow in thatchaos, our businesses will be so
much better. So much moreauthentic.
Elle Billing (40:06):
I love that so much. We are beautiful messes,
aren't we?
Joris Grey (40:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Elle Billing (40:20):
Thank you.
Joris Grey (40:22):
You're so welcome,
Elle Billing (40:23):
great.
Joris Grey (40:25):
Thank you.
Thank you for being here today.
I had a great time.
Me too.
Elle Billing (40:31):
I hope the rest of your appointments this evening
go well,
Joris Grey (40:36):
so they won't, it will be, will be horrible.
Elle Billing (40:40):
Oh, sorry
Joris Grey (40:40):
I know. So, yeah, it's okay. I have to visit with
a couple of friends. We willvisit the site where our walking
friend died again, so I willmeet more people who are also
grieving.
Elle Billing (40:55):
Well, it's better to grieve together, I think,
than to do it by yourself.
Joris Grey (41:00):
Absolutely, that's what I learned. Like, that's
what I forced myself into, like,Okay, I need to do this with
other people. I cannot run away.
I cannot hide from this. I needto feel it. Need to be with
other people share it.
Elle Billing (41:15):
Yeah, well take care of you.
Joris Grey (41:21):
Yeah, I will take care of them. They will take
care of me, right?
Elle Billing (41:24):
Yep, yeah. Are you currently taking new clients?
Joris Grey (41:30):
Yes, for coaching.
Elle Billing (41:30):
Okay, so where can people find you?
Joris Grey (41:33):
Also, my calendar opens up in January again, so I
onboard people now for January.
The best way is Instagram okay,and you get a feel of what I
actually do.
Elle Billing (41:47):
So what is your Instagram handles?
Joris Grey (41:50):
Joris? Underscore??
Elle Billing (41:56):
I'll find it and put it in the show notes,
Joris Grey (41:59):
like, me and spelling is like, what it how to
write it, but, yeah,
Elle Billing (42:06):
okay, that's fine.
I will find it, put it in theshow notes, and people can find
you to come work with you.
Joris Grey (42:11):
Yeah, yeah, they can,
Elle Billing (42:13):
all right. Thank you for your time.
Joris Grey (42:15):
Tonight was really nice. Thank you for your
brilliant questions.
Elle Billing (42:19):
Oh, well, you're welcome.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of Hoorf. to get the
complete show notes and all thelinks mentioned on today's
episode, or to get a fulltranscript of the episode, visit
Hoorf podcast dot com. Join theBlessed Herd of Saint Winkus! By
(42:39):
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(43:00):
for only $3 a month, you cansupport the creation of this
podcast, help pay my editor andjoin a community of caregivers
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf!
Until next time, be excellent toeach other. Hoorf is hosted by
Elle Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings
(43:24):
@rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio, LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms.
@hoorfpodcast at H, O, O, R, Fpodcast
Joris Grey (43:49):
I can't help it. I'm a curious girl.
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
Radical Care in a Late Capitalist Heckscape.
Ricki Cummings (01:02):
Hello, Ricki on the intro this week, our guest
this week is Joris Gray. He/him. Joris is a leadership coach
for queer entrepreneurs whodon't fit the norm and want to
build a business and team theydesire. With 12-plus years of
business experience and sixyears of experience
coachingentrepreneurs, Joris isable to provide clarity,
(01:24):
strategy, effectivecommunication, and leadership
tools to help queerentrepreneurs move the needle on
their business goals and createbusinesses that make selling
easy and joyful. When Joris isnot growing businesses, he is
walking his dog, reading stacksof books--current favorites are
sci fi and homoerotic novels--orthinking about food. This one's
(01:46):
been a long time in the making.
Welcome to Hoorf.
Elle Billing (01:51):
Oh, thank God for Ricki. Ricki is the best,
speaking of people who have ourbacks and do the ops
Joris Grey (01:57):
absolutely
Elle Billing (01:58):
so I went through a phase in middle school where I
was trying to figure out what mynickname was supposed to be. Is
supposed to be. I was namedafter my dad, whose name is
Daniel; my full given like,government / birth name is
Danielle. And at the time, Iwanted to have an original name,
of course, because I was like,Well, I'm named after my
dad--which now I think is cool,right, as an adult, and I have a
really solid relationship withmy dad. I'm like, my name kicks
(02:20):
ass.
Joris Grey (02:21):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (02:21):
And the reason I go by Elle is kind of to sort of
separate my business life frommy personal life, so that I have
this like online persona who'sdifferent from my my home
personal life. But also becauseI worked at a Deaf school for a
long time, and my sign name, myname in ASL, was Elle. So I went
by Elle for so many years,starting in college all the way
(02:43):
through my first career, that Ijust, I like that name. So like,
I like to go by that name. Itsounds nice.
Joris Grey (02:49):
Does it feel like a nick nickname? Ish to you?
Elle Billing (02:52):
It feels like a name. It feels like I have two
names, and both of them arefine, and they're separate
identities, kind of, but they'reboth me, but I'm also gender
fluid, so like, it works to havetwo names.
Joris Grey (03:04):
It works so good for you, though,
Elle Billing (03:05):
yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, this fits. Plus
Ricki's spouse is also namedDanielle, and goes by Dani. And
so when we're in the same spacetogether, we share the name
Danielle, and it's just a lotless confusing for everybody.
Joris Grey (03:21):
It's so convenient, right?
Elle Billing (03:23):
Yeah, it just worked out really well. Danielle
was a very popular name in theMidwest in the 80s, and so to be
able, for us, to be able to justsort of have part of the name,
and already that was alreadykind of established when we got
together, and it wasn'tsomething we had to figure out.
But when I was in middle school,I wanted a nickname,
Joris Grey (03:43):
yeah, I get it.
Elle Billing (03:44):
And when I was born, my parents thought they
were gonna call me Danni.
Joris Grey (03:48):
That's a good name for you.
Elle Billing (03:50):
Yeah, it never stuck. It never stuck. There's
like two or three people in thewhole world that call me Danni.
They didn't know if I was gonnabe a boy or girl, I was either
going to be Daniel or Danielle.
They're like, well, Danni fits.
And that's what my dad went byhis whole like, growing up years
and they just wanted, theythought it would be really
(04:10):
special. And I just, I, as alittle kid, I wasn't a Danni.
It's like, either you are, youaren't,
Joris Grey (04:15):
yeah
Elle Billing (04:16):
but my sister had nicknames coming out of
everywhere. I was like, well,that's not fair. And she still
does like, but now I call her byher full name most of the time,
and she didn't realize that Iwas doing that. And one time she
thought I was being reallycondescending. And she's like,
why'd you call me Katrina? It'slike, I always call you Katrina.
She's like, what? And my partnerwas like, yeah, she calls you
(04:38):
that all the time. She's like,Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you
were, being I thought you werebeing mean.
Joris Grey (04:45):
I wonder if this is part of many, like, people who
go through transition, or aretrans, or non binary, trans,
like that they're so focused ontheir nicknames when they're
like younger because, like, ourlanguage in our times weren't
like they were, were developedaround trans identities and
stuff. So I wonder if like thata focus on nicknames is true for
(05:07):
many people. I need to askcurious about
Elle Billing (05:10):
I don't know. I'm curious about that too, because
I definitely was going through alike, Well, who am I?
Joris Grey (05:16):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (05:17):
like, what do I want my name to be? I wanted it
to be something --vWell, I alsowanted to be a writer. And so I
wanted something like, catchy metoo.
Joris Grey (05:25):
Like I was always thinking about my writer name,
Elle Billing (05:29):
and there was already a Danny, a boy Danny, in
my class. And so I, I reallywanted to be Danni B. I wanted
it to be, I wanted the lastinitial to be part of the name.
And I knew that Danni had tohave an "I" in it because that
was, like, different than theboy, Danny,
Joris Grey (05:44):
yeah, yep,
Elle Billing (05:45):
and Danny B. And I could never get my teachers to
say the whole thing together,when they were calling out paper
names, and they'd say Danni, andthey're like, he's in the other
class. I'm like, No, that's meand it's Danni B, and they just
never do it. And so I gave up.
Joris Grey (06:00):
Oh, yeah. So good.
So yeah.
Elle Billing (06:03):
So and my sister started kind of giving me
nicknames in high school, andsome of them, those have stuck,
which between the two of us, butno one else calls me those so,
but my sister and I have lots ofnicknames between us, because
that growing up together as ouronly playmates thing, yeah, does
that
Joris Grey (06:19):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (06:20):
So anyway, welcome to Hoorf. It's nice to have you
here.
Joris Grey (06:25):
Thank you so much for having me.
Elle Billing (06:27):
We have been trying to do this for months,
and I am so glad that we madethis work. It is the beginning
of the day for me. It is the endof the day for you,
Joris Grey (06:37):
it is yeah.
Elle Billing (06:38):
So we are going to get this done and dusted and
then you can go to bed.
Joris Grey (06:43):
Yeah, so I have some other appointments after this,
but, yeah,
Elle Billing (06:46):
oh, okay. What time is it there?
Joris Grey (06:49):
It's six.
Elle Billing (06:50):
Oh, it's not that late. Okay, okay, I thought it
was, I thought it was later,
Joris Grey (06:54):
yeah, it feels late, like time for bed.
Elle Billing (06:57):
Yeah, usually by the end of the day I'm ready to,
like, change into sweats and notdo anything same, like after 3pm
like, don't call me, like,
Joris Grey (07:08):
yeah. It's like, I am in my sweats. I am not facing
the world. I'm gonna eat icecream,
Elle Billing (07:14):
yeah. So I am happy to have you here today. I
am here in North Dakota. You arethere in the Netherlands, and so
we've been trying to make thiswork with time zones and tech
issues, and today's the day. Itmust mean it's like an
auspicious day since we finallymade it work. Yeah, so I am
going to ask, how have youreceived care this week?
Joris Grey (07:37):
I love this question, and every time the
answer was different, because wekept on rescheduling, right?
It's, it's a different question,yeah, yeah, it's such a good
it's like a good one to check inwith yourself daily. So one of
my it's starting grim already,like one of my walking buddies
died a week ago.
Elle Billing (07:56):
Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry.
Joris Grey (07:58):
Yeah, thank you. In a really horrible way. So I got
a lot of support from friendsand like, it's one of those
moments in time where it matterswho shows up for you, and it
also matters if you ask forhelp, right? I'm not the most
vulnerable guy. People who meetme say, like, you're such a
(08:20):
vault, like you're so closed offto people, so I started learning
to show my vulnerability. And Ithink as a guy, that's really
tough, like for everybody, butit's not gender specific, but
for guys specifically, there'sthis toxic masculinity culture
where you cannot show like theinside of your heart, right? And
I think especially for trans menis really hard, because we think
(08:42):
we need to be really toxic,really strong and masculine and
really out there, very toxic aswell with girls and I started
delearning All the things that Iknow about masculinity, like a
couple of years ago. So this isone of those things, like, I
want to be vulnerable. I want tobe a guy who you can build on,
especially because I'm aleadership coach, I want people
(09:04):
to see that I lead by example,and that is also talking about
grief, talking about myvulnerable spaces. And I asked a
friend this morning to go to theplace where my walking friend
died, and to lay down someflowers and candles, and I
specifically asked for a friendto come along so that we as guys
(09:26):
could just cry there together,and that he could see me in a
vulnerable place. And that was astep for me, like honestly in
friendships. And he was there,like he showed up. I know, how
fucking busy this dude is.
Instead, he was there outside ofmy office, and we walked
together to the place where mywalking friend died, and I don't
know just people are reachingout and checking in, how you're
(09:48):
doing, all these things. Thatwas how I received care.
Elle Billing (09:52):
Yeah, that is some really deep care to be able to
be like, held and witnessed andto have space, to be vulnerable
like that.
Joris Grey (10:03):
Yeah, it takes a huge level of trust for me. I'm
unlearning like, my defaultwould be to run away from people
and just hide or, like, pretendthat I'm super strong and and I
am like people, when you meet melike I'm a super masculine guy.
But that doesn't mean that Icannot be vulnerable in my
strength, and that could be mystrength. So yeah, yeah, default
(10:26):
would be running away.
Elle Billing (10:28):
That is a really profound example of receiving
care. Wow. Thank you for sharingthat
Joris Grey (10:33):
you're so welcome.
Elle Billing (10:33):
I think even sharing that is another level of
vulnerability.
Joris Grey (10:37):
Yeah, it is, yeah, because I want to be perceived
as a certain like person, likewe all do, right? And for me,
especially at the start of mytransition, I had this image of
myself, how I wanted to beperceived, but that was all
embedded in toxic masculinity.
I'm like, That's not like, I'mnot that person, and still, I'm
(10:57):
trying to show up, even in likeprofessional, more professionals
having such as this, trying toshow up as the leader that I
want to be led by.
Elle Billing (11:12):
No, I get that. I think, nope. I don't actually
have a thought there. I thinkyou said it really well. I don't
need to add to that.
So you you talked about being aleader and showing up as the
leader that you want to be ledby. Can you talk a little bit
about your work and what you dowith leadership work?
Joris Grey (11:30):
Yeah, absolutely. So I work with queer businesses
specifically, I think I want tostart there, because that's
where also the leadership tiesin.
Elle Billing (11:37):
Yeah, perfect,
Joris Grey (11:38):
specifically with queer businesses, because I
think we are our marginalizedgroup in and of itself, right?
Especially as business owners,you are already like in a place
where you need to overcomeyourself constantly when it
comes to sales or puttingyourself out there. And I think
for queer businesses, inspecific, the whole world tells
(11:58):
you that you don't belong.
Right? Every day we get taughtlike we don't belong. We're not
welcome here. We're like not thenorm, because we are a
marginalized group, and I see somany queer business owners
struggle with that piece alonein and of themselves, and they
don't believe that they could besuccessful as a queer business
(12:20):
owners, because they don'tfundamentally believe that they
belong. And there's not yet manyexamples for queer business
owners, of successful leaders,for example, in queer business
spaces. And I saw so many queerbusinesses that wanted to find
their place in success and inthe online world, offline world,
(12:42):
but they ended up in all these,like, very gendered spaces,
Elle Billing (12:48):
yes, yes!
Joris Grey (12:51):
like, either women's groups or men's groups and [??]
or like even their language isso exclusive and like they're
queer people are excluded fromthese spaces just by how, like,
how it's market all thesebusiness groups and business
coaches and business leaders. SoI wanted to change that, and I
(13:14):
wanted to show also, like queerbusinesses, that you can be
really fucking successful as abusiness owner, especially when
you're queer. And I think inaddition to that, I believe that
we as queer business owners dothings a little different. We
need to learn. We can learn wehave to. You don't have to do
anything, but you can learn thatit's more so about in building
(13:37):
support networks and communitiesand doing like a rising tide
lifts all ships, but especiallyfor queer business owners, we
can learn that we can do thisall together successfully, and
then profit is the cherry ontop.
Elle Billing (13:53):
I've definitely noticed the the gender nature of
of business groups. There's athere's a group I want to apply
to be like, do one of theirmonthly keynotes too, and it's
like, the women's connect group.
And I already know going in thatit's going to be an environment
where I don't quite fit in,
Joris Grey (14:11):
yeah
Elle Billing (14:12):
like, right off the bat, and I'm working on my
proposal, and I'm like, you saidqueer business owners, we do
things differently, and wealready have kind of a
difference about us and what wedo and what we talk about, and
that's going to be part of myproposal is like, Yes, I'm
perceived as a woman, like I'mgender fluid femme. I don't
(14:35):
quite fit in this group, but Ithink what I have to offer will,
like, get them to think aboutthings a little differently, and
I still think I fit enough to,like, be really powerful for
your group. Yeah, I don't thinkI'll fit in 100% of the time.
I'm probably not going to comeback, like, I don't want to come
every month. Like, that's,that's, I might be a little
uncomfortable,
Joris Grey (14:55):
yeah,
Elle Billing (14:56):
but I really, but I really think that, like, how I
do things, and think aboutthings is important for other
people to see
Joris Grey (15:02):
absolutely, because they cannot adapt their blind
spots if no one points them outto them, right?
Elle Billing (15:08):
Yep.
Joris Grey (15:09):
So I had to, like mask so much early on in my
transition, like just dealingwith gendered language alone,
because I was only in femalebusiness groups at the time,
Elle Billing (15:23):
yep
Joris Grey (15:23):
and I had to, like, really sit through all that
gendered language just to getsome business support. And it's
not the fault of, like, thebusiness coach or anything.
There's no fault here. It's justoutdated, an outdated way of
doing leadership consultancy andbusiness consultancy.
Elle Billing (15:42):
Yes, you do somatics in your leadership
training and like personally aswell. That's a word that I've
heard a lot more lately than Iused to hear it. And I don't
know if it's one of those thingsthat once you hear it, you keep
hearing it like you just noticeit once you know it, or if it's
actually becoming moreintegrated into what people are
doing.
Joris Grey (16:02):
I think it's both.
Elle Billing (16:03):
Is it both? Okay?
So, and I remember when we wereemailing and prepping for this,
you were like, I would love totalk about somatics. Like,
please ask me about somatics. Sothis is me asking about
somatics. What can you do? Like,what is it like give us a crash
course and why you love it andwhat it does for us. We don't
(16:24):
have a weekend retreat here togo through it, but we have a few
minutes on a podcast.
Joris Grey (16:32):
So normally, I work with with people for 12 months,
right? So,
Elle Billing (16:36):
yeah, this is not a 12 month interview, no.
Joris Grey (16:39):
And I have to work with people for 12 months to
fully teach them how their bodyworks for them. That is the main
part of what I teach, what I dowith a lot of people is your
body can never lie to you, butwe don't even know how to tune
into our bodies to get thewisdom that we need out. Most of
(17:00):
the people that I work withdon't even know how to notice
their own body. Does my stomachgurgle? When does it gurgle?
When does my heart skip a beat?
Or what is that tight sensationin my belly? Do I have a tight
sensation in my belly? What doesthat tell me, without adding
stories? So what I differentiateon a lot is that there's so much
(17:21):
mind clutter. As anentrepreneur, and especially a
leader, when you start to leadpeople, shit blows up in your
face like you get triggered sofucking much.
Elle Billing (17:33):
Oh my gosh, well, and not even just leading
people, but just like doing ourjobs, right? My Instagram and my
Threads got suspended last week.
Yeah, like, I laid down for anap and they were there, and I
woke up two hours later and theywere gone. And you want to talk
about, like, what is my bodytelling me?
Joris Grey (17:51):
Oh, tell me.
Elle Billing (17:52):
So, what did it do? Oh, I ended up with like a
rock. It felt like a rock rightin below my solar plexus at the
top of my stomach. And I waslike, oh, okay, so I have a
stomach ache. Because, like, Iam, I think, fairly in tune with
my body. I have chronicillnesses and I get migraines
and so, like, I definitelynotice when things change to the
(18:13):
point where people are like,you, you couldn't feel that. I'm
like, No, I really did.
Joris Grey (18:17):
People are surprised, right, that they
actually learn about their ownbodies and the stories that we
make up about them.
Elle Billing (18:23):
Yeah. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm anxious.
Like, this is giving me anxiety,because I've spent six years
building up my Instagram for myart business. Like, this is a
huge loss for me, and I don'tknow what's going to happen. I
don't like the unknown. Iactually, I had to go to work my
part time job. I had a littlebreak. Usually, if I that
feeling doesn't go away, I canusually, kind of dance it out.
(18:43):
If I do some -- I'm not a gooddancer. I'm like, an emotional
dancer. I do it in my studio allthe time. It's like, it's weird,
but no, it's perfect. I justmove my body the way it wants to
move, and I can usually get,like, close the stress cycle.
This is something new I've donein the last three years, and
kind of get feelings through mybody. And it didn't work, I felt
worse. It was an abdominalmigraine. I had to take one of
(19:08):
my emergency migraine meds tokind of get it to go away, but
it still held on for like threedays, and I ended up having to
take one of my second linemigraine medications to finally
get it to let go. But it wasdefinitely like a physical
response to an externalstressor. And I was like, wow,
I've invested too muchemotionally into Instagram.
Joris Grey (19:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Elle Billing (19:32):
And so I've just been kind of trying to, like,
work around it and just like,wait to see what happened, but
it is. It's really stressful
Joris Grey (19:43):
yeah, so this is exactly like, like on your own,
this is already stressful,right? But as soon as you bring
it into teams and your migrainesdetermine how the outcome of the
meeting will be, then everybodygets a migraine, right? Right?
Or. Like, when I was teachingthese exactly the attacks
(20:03):
started when I was teachingelementary school during Yeah,
right before the holidays, yep,yep. So I work a lot around
conflict, for example. Like, ifsomeone has a conflict, how do
you deal with it? Like, whatkind of sensations come up in
your body? do you let yourmigraines, for example,
determine how everybody shouldvote so that the meeting is
(20:26):
over, you can relate to that. Ordo you tend to your migraine
first and then have the meetingaccordingly? So we work a lot
around body symptoms and whatthey mean for you without
telling I asked, like, one of myclients said, like, Oh, I think
I'm stressed. I'm like, Are you?
And then eventually she learnedthat she wasn't stressed at all.
It was totally differentsymptoms you learn to navigate
(20:46):
on, like, the minor sensationsof her body. And it also comes
up when you do sales, and like,your body never lies to you,
right? When you find someoneicky, your body will tell you,
like, this is not a client foryou. And so we first learned to
tune in those sensations, andthen I start coaching.
Elle Billing (21:03):
That's that's really great. I mean, that was
something we had to work withour my students on when I was
working, because a lot ofstudents with sensory
disabilities will have otherdisabilities along with it, and
a lot of my students had neurodifferences, so like ADHD,
autism, things like that, and soit can be really hard to notice
(21:24):
and identify body sensations andnotice and identify emotions. So
we did a lot of sensory therapyand things like that, and I
benefited from that as well. Iwasn't diagnosed with ADHD until
I was 36 years old, but let metell you, I learned a lot from
the sensory therapist beforethat, and it was like, this
(21:46):
should have been a clue.
Joris Grey (21:48):
And like looking back, it was.
Elle Billing (21:51):
And, you know, maybe he knew that I had ADHD
before I knew. I think a lot ofpeople knew before I knew. I
think maybe I was the lastperson to know,
Joris Grey (22:02):
or people didn't have the words for you as a
human
Elle Billing (22:05):
right. But like that whole what is being able to
identify a feeling? And yeah,either a physical feeling or an
emotional feeling, that's andyes, I think especially, I don't
know what Dutch schools werelike, but I know for sure, in
American schools, we startreally early, teaching kids to
ignore their bodies.
Joris Grey (22:24):
Same here, like
Elle Billing (22:25):
by not letting them go to the bathroom. I think
it starts so early, telling kidsyou don't get to go pee,
Joris Grey (22:31):
yeah, or you have to raise your hand to pee, or you
can only go two times a day. AndI'm like, No, so.
Elle Billing (22:37):
yeah. And that was one of the things that I did in
my classroom, where, yes,definitely, in elementary school
you can pee whenever you have topee, you have a small bladder,
Joris Grey (22:45):
yeah.
Elle Billing (22:46):
And my classroom had a bathroom attached to it,
so like, why wouldn't I let yougo? But even in middle school
and high school, there were someteachers who were, like, really,
really strict about it. And Iwas like, You know what? I want
you to trust your body, and I'mgonna trust you to trust your
body, if you trust me to keep asafe classroom and stuff, like
(23:07):
this is a two way street. I'mgoing to trust that you're not
going to take advantage of arelaxed bathroom policy,
Joris Grey (23:14):
yeah
Elle Billing (23:14):
and just go all the time, and then you can trust
that I will let you go when yourbladder says that you need to
go,
Joris Grey (23:20):
I love that
Elle Billing (23:20):
and they were like, we can just go? I said,
you have to tell me where you'regoing. I would need to know. I
won't count you tardy. If youcome in at the beginning and
say, I need the bathroom, andthen you go, and then come in
after the bell,
Joris Grey (23:33):
yeah.
Elle Billing (23:34):
Like communication. Trust your body,
trust me. I trust you. Like thisis, this is what being an adult
is, and that's what I'm helpingyou do. So much of our problems,
at least here in the US asadults, with trusting our bodies
and not knowing when we're sickor ignoring when we're sick, so
much of that starts in school,
Joris Grey (23:55):
and you need to, like, be super sick to stay at
home and all these things,right? Show up when we have a
business, they blow up in ourface, like people have so many
strict professional, quote,unquote rules, and they come to
me because they want to createtheir business professionally.
So they want to uplevel andbecome professional. I'm like,
(24:16):
Okay, let's unlearn all thatshit, because you need to learn,
for example, if you're are inmeetings, you need to learn to
eat with your coworkers, and weshould learn to eat together as
a team, and we need to unlearnso much when we lead, because
otherwise you will get angry. Ijust posted this on Instagram.
(24:37):
You get angry because you didn'thave a snack, or you get angry
because you were angry at thebus stop, but you blow out that
anger on all your team membersbecause you think someone
triggers you, like in thatmeeting, and you cannot really
deal with the first feelings,like instead of the fifth person
you're meeting. So it's exactlyright. It's embedded in our
culture that we cannot trust ourbodies and also, we mismatch our
(25:02):
actions based on what we thinkour body is telling us. So yeah,
and that that can cost anorganization organization a lot
of fucking money.
Elle Billing (25:12):
Yeah,
Joris Grey (25:13):
right?
Elle Billing (25:14):
yeah, yep.
Joris Grey (25:16):
We fire the wrong person. We let conflict blow up.
We we are super overtired andand then we make a decision with
our money that's not reallyinformed. Well, all these
things, right?
Elle Billing (25:32):
Yeah, and you mentioned professionalism, and,
like,
Joris Grey (25:35):
Yes,
Elle Billing (25:36):
I immediately tense up because,
Joris Grey (25:39):
oh, you tense up good,
Elle Billing (25:41):
well, because I don't, I don't like that word. I
pushed back against that a lotwhen I was teaching, because the
whole concept ofprofessionalism, I mean, maybe
you'll agree with me, but I'mnot going to assume until I say
it, professionalism tends to bevery sexist, racist, homophobic,
transphobic and classist andableist,
Joris Grey (26:04):
absolutely all these things.
Elle Billing (26:05):
Yeah. And so the farther you are from being a
cis, heterosexual, able bodiedwhite man, at least here in the
US, the harder you have to boxyourself in to be considered
professional
Joris Grey (26:22):
according to certain type of standards that don't fit
in the majority of businesses
Elle Billing (26:28):
No, and trying to be seen as, you know, a
professional woman or aprofessional queer or a
professional disabled person,you have to work really, really
hard to try and fit in thoseboxes. And you're never going
to,
Joris Grey (26:39):
yeah, no, and there's so many better ways to
do business and do itprofessional according to those
standards, because ourprofessional standards are
actually based embedded in care,right? Can we care for each
other? Can we tend to eachother? Can we create a support
network? Right? That isprofessionalism to me.
Elle Billing (26:58):
Yeah. And I always said that professionalism is an
ethic. It's not a look.
Joris Grey (27:03):
Oh, that's a good quote. I'm gonna steal that for
you, yeah?
Elle Billing (27:06):
Do it. Do it, please. I haven't trademarked
it. I think everyone shouldbelieve that
Joris Grey (27:11):
it's 100% right, it's ethics, right?
Elle Billing (27:14):
Yeah, and that's, that was part of the thing about
teaching too, is like, I don'thave to dress a certain way to
be a good teacher, I have toshow up and support my students
and follow the code of ethics.
Yes, I realize that I lookyounger than I am, and sometimes
when I wore jeans and flannel toschool, you couldn't tell the
difference between me and a highschooler, but all the high
(27:35):
schoolers knew I was theirteacher. So like,
Joris Grey (27:40):
yeah, it's how you show up for the other
Elle Billing (27:43):
Exactly. And I showed up for them. Like, and if
I was in the classroom and theycould trust me with their stuff,
that's what was important,
Joris Grey (27:52):
yeah,
Elle Billing (27:53):
not if my shirt had print on it, because I had
some of the funniest Englishteacher shirts ever. Like,
please don't tell me I can'twear a shirt with writing on it.
I spent years cultivating that Tshirt collection. I had one that
said THERE, THEIR, THEY'RE onit. Like, I think that'sfunny.
Joris Grey (28:14):
Yeah, it is. It is super funny. But this is also
like, this ties into theconversation around
professionalism, right? I thinkpeople get clog, clog their own
drain, so much that they cannotshow up for other humans
anymore. And some of my work isdeclutter that plug first. Like,
(28:34):
what's at your back end, right?
What's happening all there isway too complicated. Let's clean
that up first so that you canshow up for people again, so
that you can be human to human.
But with all that stuff thatyou're doing in your business, I
don't know what the god peopleare doing in their business. I'm
like, that's not a priority foryou. So let's first declutter
(28:55):
all that shit and then show upas a human again. So that needs
to happen, right? Then we canlearn, learn to human.
Elle Billing (29:02):
Yeah, oh, learn to human. I love that. I mean, I
use, like, automation and stufffor some of my and not even a
lot, because I'm an artist, andso the only things I can really
automate are, like, if someonesigns up for my newsletter, I
can automate it being added tomy CRM in a different in a
different program, right? Like,minimal automation, but like,
(29:22):
one of my grounding pillars formyself is like to be
relentlessly human.
Joris Grey (29:27):
Yeah
Elle Billing (29:28):
just show up authentically. So if that means
one of my newsletters goes outand it's a little weirder than I
mean, they're always a littleweirder than usual. Like, I
would rather alienate somebodywho decides that I'm just not
for them.
Joris Grey (29:43):
Oh, 100,000% Yeah.
Elle Billing (29:45):
than produced content that's just kind of meh.
Joris Grey (29:48):
Yeah, yeah. Like the Safe, safe-ish, yeah.
Elle Billing (29:52):
So, like, one of my my newsletters this summer
that went out, had a video of mydog in the car at the car wash,
because I. I guess that's notrelentlessly human, that's
relentlessly canine. But we hadtaken her to the vet, and they
had to sedate her to get imagesof her knee, because they had to
manipulate her knee to get theimages, and she had ruptured her
(30:13):
ACL and so she was in a lot ofpain, and so they sedated her,
and she had come out ofsedation, but she was still
really, really stoned. She waslike, really drugged, and
because she was in pain and hadbeen a really good girl at the
at the vet, we -- her twofavorite things are the drive,
are drive-throughs, fast fooddrive- throughs and car washes.
(30:36):
So we took her through thedrive-through, and there's,
like, the flashing lights andlike, all the whooshy, whooshy,
Joris Grey (30:42):
yeah.
Elle Billing (30:42):
And so I have this video of her, like, swaying back
and forth, like, with her eyeskind of glazed. And I was pretty
certain it was a religiousexperience for her. I'm pretty
sure she saw God.
Joris Grey (30:57):
aww
Elle Billing (30:59):
But it was so cute that I had them in my
newsletter. I'm like, you guys,it was such a bad week. She
injured her knee, like all thestuff went on. But here's this
really cute video of her in theat the car wash, just like,
totally zoned out, I said, andalso, we went and got a pup cup
at the ice cream place. Thoseare her two favorite things.
(31:21):
And, like, I thought that was somuch better than, like, whatever
professional, here's what I'mdoing in the studio.
Joris Grey (31:31):
But isn't that, like so many queer people need to
unlearn that image first, right?
They need to wash themselves offof like the cishet toxic culture
first to learn what their sortof professionalism is. So it's
hard for people like, it's suchbecause we there's so much fear
attached to it, right? Like,will I then make money? Can I
(31:51):
pay my bills? I think you canpay your bills a lot better if
you just show up in yourbusiness as you are, yeah, but
learn first what that lookslike.
Elle Billing (32:03):
I mean, my podcast was named by my dog. I think I
have a pretty good start showingup as myself.
Joris Grey (32:09):
Absolutely.
Elle Billing (32:11):
I don't think I ever learned how not to. I mean,
I tried. There were lots oftimes where I definitely tried
to put on this very professionalpersona,
Joris Grey (32:19):
yeah
Elle Billing (32:20):
especially like when I was student teaching, and
one of the staff at the schoolwas like, you really need to
rein it in. And I was like, Oh,that was really hard. That was a
really hard period for me. Waslike, not being me.
Joris Grey (32:35):
Yeah
Elle Billing (32:35):
I knew I didn't want to do that. I was like, I
can't Okay. I know right now Ineed to be at a school where I
get to be myself,
Joris Grey (32:41):
I think also our communication starts to be so
much more clear when we areauthentic, and we bring that to
our businesses like it clutter,Declutters all our all levels of
our business, if we learn toshow up authentically, because
then we can also attend tothese, set our boundaries, we
take accountability, we canauthentically delegate, because
(33:03):
we learn how to do these thingsas ourselves,
Elle Billing (33:08):
Right? And I think that's, you know, most of the
people I know who are nowsolopreneurs or business owners
or who have gone the route ofstarting their own business, I
think that's why most of us havedone it is because we we didn't
fit in wherever we were before,
Joris Grey (33:24):
True
Elle Billing (33:25):
or something happened in our life where we're
like, I can't do this anymore.
Joris Grey (33:29):
Yep, yep. That's me.
Like, I cannot work for a boss.
Like, please no.
Elle Billing (33:34):
Yeah. And like, for me, like, I was kind of
selling art on the side before,but I burnt out teaching, and I
got really ill, and I couldn'twork full time in that setting
or any setting anymore. I needmore time to rest, and that's
just how it has to be now. AndI've said before, I never wanted
to be a business owner. I justwanted to paint. I think I'm
(33:57):
kind of getting the hang ofbeing, of doing this, and
because I have a community thatI've found and sort of created
around me, because doing it bymyself is the worst.
Joris Grey (34:09):
But it's also it's impossible to do this on your
own, right?
Elle Billing (34:13):
I'm only a solopreneur on paper, like,
right? Huge team around me that,yep, you know, they're not paid
necessarily, but like, they'remy huge support team.
Joris Grey (34:24):
Yeah, I learned leaders to integrate, like, all
parts of their life so that theyare supported, right? Like, let
yourself be supported. Don't dothis alone. Yeah.
Elle Billing (34:36):
So I don't know what the landscape over there
is. I'm -- not like physicallandscape, but like what the the
culture is like in in theNetherlands or even greater
Europe, as far as LGBTQ rightsand accessibility and things
compared to the US, it's -- overhere, it's pretty scattershot.
It really depends on where youlive, like, because it's such a
(34:57):
huge like, the US is so vast,it's so huge, just state by
state and even city by city. Sowhat is it like there, as far as
since you work with queerbusinesses, do you work
exclusively with Dutchbusinesses, or do you have
international clients as well?
Is it more accessible and easierto be queer in the Netherlands?
Joris Grey (35:19):
These are two exactly good questions,
Elle Billing (35:21):
or is that too broad of a question to cover?
Like,
Joris Grey (35:25):
I'm, like, I'm a pretty good listener. I mean,
that's part of my job, right? SoI hear, yeah, like, what's the
cultural landscape? Do yousolely only work with Dutch
businesses?
Elle Billing (35:36):
Yeah? Sorry
Joris Grey (35:37):
You're there. Yeah,
Elle Billing (35:38):
that was a lot.
Sorry, I can't help it. I'm acurious girl.
Joris Grey (35:43):
No, it's perfect. So the first question, it's so not
easier here as a queer person.
Elle Billing (35:51):
Okay,
Joris Grey (35:51):
it gets worse and worse. I think by the day, it
gets worse to be a queer person.
Elle Billing (35:57):
So the rise of the far right is, yeah, global
problem.
Joris Grey (36:02):
It's a global fucking problem. It's been there
for a long time, but now it'slike kind of breaking breaking
through, I think
Elle Billing (36:11):
it out loud, like they're saying the quiet parts
out loud,
Joris Grey (36:14):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And everybody's allowing them.
So that was the fucked up thing,but it was far right for a long
time, especially in theNetherlands, like, the
Netherlands is not so what's itcalled? Like, progressive as
people think,
Elle Billing (36:26):
yep
Joris Grey (36:27):
especially around trans rights and LGBTQ rights,
like, it's horrible. I thinkit's I'm lucky that I have
insurance and stuff getscovered, but the rest like,
like, I can be open about, like,being trans on this podcast, for
example, but I cannot be in,like, quote, unquote, real life.
What does that even mean? I workInternational, so for me, this
(36:49):
is real life. But yeah, I can beopen about being trans in closed
circles. And I think that is sofucked up, right? I have to tell
a lot of people around me like,I am stealth. You cannot talk
about my transition. You cannottell people that I'm trans,
because it's very dangerous forme. Like, it's horrible. So that
(37:09):
is the first part. I think it'snot better. I think it's getting
worse. So,
Elle Billing (37:13):
yeah, yeah, that's a lot, like, God, in a lot of
places here too. Yeah, yeah. Ilived in Idaho before, like, for
many years, and then I moved. Imean, I grew up here in North
Dakota, and then I moved toIdaho, and then I'm back here,
and I'm lucky to be in a smalltown that's decently supportive.
I mean, really, small town, 800people, yeah,
Joris Grey (37:33):
that's small, yeah.
Elle Billing (37:35):
But, um, my partner hasn't had any problems
in my hometown, which is good.
She lives in Chicago. Ricki.
Ricki lives in Chicago most ofthe time, and Chicago is like
way better than where either ofus were living before, but
Idaho, there, that is not a funplace to live. I mean, my
friends are there. I love them.
I have a lot of happy memories,and I still feel homesick for
(37:58):
Idaho, but I don't think I couldever move back.
Joris Grey (38:03):
Yeah?
Elle Billing (38:04):
Like, it's just not safe. No. I mean, the far
right never left Idaho, like inother places where people are
surprised at the that they have,it's like, oh gosh, everything's
like, so radical now. And I'mlike, yeah, it's always been
that way. There's always beenpockets of that in Idaho that
never got quiet. Like, yeah,there's always been a contingent
(38:27):
of that very vocal in Idaho,
Joris Grey (38:29):
yeah.
Elle Billing (38:30):
So one last question,
Joris Grey (38:33):
yep
Elle Billing (38:33):
what is one true thing that you have learned from
your work with queer businesses?
Joris Grey (38:38):
Okay, that was not on the list.
Elle Billing (38:41):
Oh, I thought I included that one at the end.
I'm sorry.
Joris Grey (38:44):
No, no, don't, don't apologize. It's a good question.
Let me think; one true thing. Ohyeah, I think one true thing
that I learned from queerbusinesses. So I've only, I've
been a business coach for a longtime, like, I think seven? Six,
seven years or so. That's prettylong because it's pretty solid
business.
Elle Billing (39:03):
Oh yeah,
Joris Grey (39:03):
I've always done it on the side. It was always
myself, and then I grew intofull time coaching. But the last
year and a half, I startedworking solely only. Well,
majority of my clients arequeer. You can be like if you're
an ally, you are also welcome.
Absolutely. I workInternational, so that's good to
(39:24):
know, I think. But the one truething that I learned is that
queerness, in and of itself, isreally messy, but we don't allow
that mess in our businesses. Wethink we can exclude that
beautiful, precious, amazing,glorious mess. We think we can
(39:47):
exclude that from our companies.
But I think if we allow in thatchaos, our businesses will be so
much better. So much moreauthentic.
Elle Billing (40:06):
I love that so much. We are beautiful messes,
aren't we?
Joris Grey (40:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Elle Billing (40:20):
Thank you.
Joris Grey (40:22):
You're so welcome,
Elle Billing (40:23):
great.
Joris Grey (40:25):
Thank you.
Thank you for being here today.
I had a great time.
Me too.
Elle Billing (40:31):
I hope the rest of your appointments this evening
go well,
Joris Grey (40:36):
so they won't, it will be, will be horrible.
Elle Billing (40:40):
Oh, sorry
Joris Grey (40:40):
I know. So, yeah, it's okay. I have to visit with
a couple of friends. We willvisit the site where our walking
friend died again, so I willmeet more people who are also
grieving.
Elle Billing (40:55):
Well, it's better to grieve together, I think,
than to do it by yourself.
Joris Grey (41:00):
Absolutely, that's what I learned. Like, that's
what I forced myself into, like,Okay, I need to do this with
other people. I cannot run away.
I cannot hide from this. I needto feel it. Need to be with
other people share it.
Elle Billing (41:15):
Yeah, well take care of you.
Joris Grey (41:21):
Yeah, I will take care of them. They will take
care of me, right?
Elle Billing (41:24):
Yep, yeah. Are you currently taking new clients?
Joris Grey (41:30):
Yes, for coaching.
Elle Billing (41:30):
Okay, so where can people find you?
Joris Grey (41:33):
Also, my calendar opens up in January again, so I
onboard people now for January.
The best way is Instagram okay,and you get a feel of what I
actually do.
Elle Billing (41:47):
So what is your Instagram handles?
Joris Grey (41:50):
Joris? Underscore??
Elle Billing (41:56):
I'll find it and put it in the show notes,
Joris Grey (41:59):
like, me and spelling is like, what it how to
write it, but, yeah,
Elle Billing (42:06):
okay, that's fine.
I will find it, put it in theshow notes, and people can find
you to come work with you.
Joris Grey (42:11):
Yeah, yeah, they can,
Elle Billing (42:13):
all right. Thank you for your time.
Joris Grey (42:15):
Tonight was really nice. Thank you for your
brilliant questions.
Elle Billing (42:19):
Oh, well, you're welcome.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of Hoorf. to get the
complete show notes and all thelinks mentioned on today's
episode, or to get a fulltranscript of the episode, visit
Hoorf podcast dot com. Join theBlessed Herd of Saint Winkus! By
(42:39):
signing up for our newsletter,you can get Hoorf episodes
delivered directly to yourinbox. What's more, you get
invitations to our monthlyCoffee and Biscuits Chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show,
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that at hoorfpodcastdot com. If you become a patron
(43:00):
for only $3 a month, you cansupport the creation of this
podcast, help pay my editor andjoin a community of caregivers
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf!
Until next time, be excellent toeach other. Hoorf is hosted by
Elle Billing @elleandwink, audioediting by Ricki Cummings
(43:24):
@rickiep00h music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio, LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms.
@hoorfpodcast at H, O, O, R, Fpodcast
Joris Grey (43:49):
I can't help it. I'm a curious girl.
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