November 25, 2024 • 47 mins
Content note: this episode discusses experiences with mental illness
On this episode, we meet Virginia Townsend, the artist behind the vibrant creations of Bunnie Rabbitte, whose story illustrates how support and success are not mutually exclusive. In a wide-ranging conversation about art and mental health, Virginia opened up about the daily reality of creating while living with PTSD. Like many artists navigating disability, Virginia's journey includes managing sleep disorders and triggers that disrupt the flow of her day. Through sharing her experiences, Virginia highlights a truth that often gets overlooked: disability needs aren't one-size-fits-all, and our support systems shouldn't be either. Her advocacy for integrated, comprehensive care services speaks to something bigger than just accessing help; it's about creating the conditions where disabled artists don't just survive - they thrive and create remarkable work that enriches our world.
Links to Virgina’s website, as well as all other resource links, are in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elle Billing (00:00):
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
Radical Care in a Late-Capitalist Heckscape.
(01:02):
My guest for this episode isTwin Cities- Metro based artist
Virginia Townsend, who createsunder the moniker Bunnie
Rabbitte. Virginia paints fromher experience with mental
health, illness, disability andher own unique vision of
recovery. Born to parents livingwith mental illness, Virginia
honed her critical thinkingskills early by discerning
between her parents'hallucinations, illusions, and
(01:23):
reality. In her artisticwork,Virginia uses this skill to play
with concepts of objective truthand perception and how they
intertwine in mental healthrecovery communities. Since 2019
Virginia has been creating artfull time with her current
practice, supported by MSS, aprogressive day program
supporting people withdisabilities. Living with her
own mental illness, she hasexperienced making art in non
(01:45):
traditional settings. Shelearned to connect emotion and
image in hospital-basedoccupational therapy programs,
and continued her journey bypainting full time in adult day
programs. Having spent time ininpatient mental health units so
frequently, she is a strongsense of community and belonging
with individuals frequentlyhospitalized, or so-called
revolving door patients, and theunique obstacles they face in
(02:08):
receiving care. Quiet in person,her voice speaks loudly through
her abstract and figurative art.
Townsend brings attention tocracks and support services,
lack of safe assisted livingsettings for women and queer
identified folks, and wellintentioned policy that may have
disastrous effects. Sheadvocates for people most
vulnerable to abuse that need24/7 supports and cannot find
settings without sacrificingprivacy or choice of whom they
(02:31):
reside with. Townsend is arecipient of fiscal year 2024
creative individuals grantfunded by the Minnesota State
Arts Board and the NationalEndowment for the Arts. She's
also the grantee of Arts Midwest2024 Midwest Award for Artists
with Disabilities. I am excitedto have Virginia on the podcast
with me today.
(02:55):
Hi, Virginia. How are you doingtoday?
Virginia Townsend (02:57):
I'm doing great. How are you?
Elle Billing (02:59):
Not too bad. It's great to have you on the
podcast. I'm excited to have youhere today.
Virginia Townsend (03:04):
Yeah, I'm excited too. Thank you for
inviting me.
Elle Billing (03:07):
Of course, I'm excited to have you here for our
listeners. This is my secondinterview with a winner of the
Midwest Award for Artists withDisabilities for this season of
Hoorf, and I'm really excited tohave another one of my fellow
artist cohort with me on thepodcast today. It's been really
(03:28):
fun to reach out and chat withartists and our little elite
group of nine and get to knowtheir art and get to know them.
And I'm really happy to haveVirginia on the podcast today.
Virginia Townsend (03:40):
Thank you.
Elle Billing (03:41):
You're in Minnesota, yes?
Virginia Townsend (03:43):
I am
Elle Billing (03:44):
Yep. And I'm in North Dakota, so we're like,
little neighbors,ah, yeah, I want to go to North
Dakota. I like that idea of justvast land, just like the idea of
emptiness.
yes, yeah. And I'm on theeastern part of the state, so
like, you wouldn't be too far,like, once you cross the border,
(04:05):
like, you would be really close.
You could come say hi, um,actually, we drive, I drive
through your city on my way tovisit my sister. So,
Virginia Townsend (04:13):
oh, wow,
Elle Billing (04:14):
you're actually, like, we're, I mean, it's like a
several hour drive, but like,yeah, you're still probably the
closest one to me. Of all,
Virginia Townsend (04:25):
we'll have some planning to do, I guess.
Elle Billing (04:27):
So we'll have to go to Oakdale and get Duck
Donuts.
Virginia Townsend (04:31):
They-- Oh my gosh. First of all, I don't know
what you're talking about, butsecond of all, I really want to
go.
Elle Billing (04:38):
Okay, so my sister used to work in Oakdale, and
there's, it's like a small donutshop. There's like, three of
them in the cities, and they'relike, really, really good
donuts. I don't know why they'recalled Duck Donuts. It's the
name of the place, but they'relike, when I was staying with
them one time, he came home fromwork with like, a dozendonuts,
(05:00):
and she had made sure that hegot enough that were like, not
that were allergy friendly forme, because there's so many
flavors of things that I can'teat. And I was like, Oh, my God,
it was like a lemonade flavoreddonut, yeah, yeah,
Virginia Townsend (05:16):
that sounds really nice.
Elle Billing (05:18):
And there were strawberry lemonade ones too,
but I am allergic tostrawberries, so, like, I had it
was just like a lemon, like,they melted in my mouth. And it
was like, this is a really gooddonut. Like, I should come visit
more often. I mean, like, Yes, Ilove my sister and her family.
But also, these are really gooddonuts.
Virginia Townsend (05:35):
Hard to find a good donut, yeah.
Unknown (05:38):
So,
Elle Billing (05:38):
So, yeah, I'll go visit my sister. I'll swing
through and see you. I'll bringyou donuts.
Virginia Townsend (05:42):
Thank you.
Yeah,
Elle Billing (05:45):
we'll have an art date.
Virginia Townsend (05:47):
Yeah, yes.
Elle Billing (05:48):
And then then you'll have to come up here and
visit just the vast emptiness.
Take pictures of it. Yeah,there's really good donuts in
Fargo, though, too. So like, Ican take you for donuts there. I
can take you to see the woodchipper from the movie Fargo.
Virginia Townsend (06:05):
Oh!
Elle Billing (06:06):
it's in our visitor center, and then the
vast emptiness of the rest of
Virginia Townsend (06:10):
yeah, yes,
Elle Billing (06:12):
just miles of corn,
Virginia Townsend (06:16):
the landscape with the beautiful, rich colors,
Elle Billing (06:20):
yeah, it's--
Virginia Townsend (06:21):
or gray tone colors. I don't really know,
never been there.
Elle Billing (06:23):
Yeah, it's right now it's brown because we're
harvesting corn, and the corn,you know, it turns brown before
you harvest it.
Virginia Townsend (06:33):
It's interesting.
Elle Billing (06:34):
Like, it's green all summer, and then it like,
has to dry, and so now it's justreally brown.
Virginia Townsend (06:40):
Yep, I like it,
Elle Billing (06:41):
and the leaves are turning. It's nice. Fall is my
favorite. Summer makes me fairlymiserable. I can't regulate my
temperature, and I just amcranky all summer long.
Virginia Townsend (06:53):
Fall is nice, yeah, it is especially now.
Elle Billing (06:57):
So my first question that I ask all of my
guests is, how have you receivedcare this week?
Virginia Townsend (07:04):
Yeah, I love that question, and I'm really
fortunate because I receive alot of services. I'm fortunate
to be in Minnesota because theyare they really take care of
people in Minnesota. I grew upin Texas, and Texas was
different,
Elle Billing (07:25):
Quite different.
Virginia Townsend (07:26):
It is. It's, um, it's tough to I think-- I
,growing up, I remember seeing adoctor one time till I moved to
Minnesota at 17. So, yeah, it'sit's a little tough. But um, so
this week, I have seen mytherapist, who I see twice a
(07:49):
week, and during the daytime,during the weekdays, I go to a
adult day center called MSSMidwest Special Services, and
they have a lot of locations,but I go to the Eagan one, and
it's a place where people withdisabilities of all kinds and
sorts and different functioningneeds and support needs can go
(08:13):
and receive staffing during theday. After that programming, I
go home, and I have my ownapartment in a building that's
called an ICS building, and Ireceive services and staffing
there too, not as intensely asat my day program, but I usually
(08:37):
have a couple hours with staff aday, and it's called ICS, which
is integrated communitysupports. And I try to spend as
little time as I can alone, likeI don't-- I have trouble being
alone, but at certain times,like on the weekends,
especially, you know, it'sdifficult for me to have
(08:58):
staffing at home. It's alwaysreally confused me, like you can
have such intensive servicesduring the five day weekdays and
then nothing on the weekend. AndI've never really understood how
that makes sense.
Elle Billing (09:15):
Something I noticed when I was in education
too, is like because I worked ata residential school, is we had
structure and services for thekids the whole time they were
there. And then they on the daythey would go home, kids would
start having meltdowns becausethey the transition was so hard,
and they knew they were going togo back to like, wherever they
went on the weekends. And so thelast day of the school week, the
(09:37):
last half of the last day of theschool week, and then the first
half of the first day of theweek, kids were just all over
the place because of that,transition from no structure to
structure every single week wasreally difficult for them,
because what they needed wasconsistency, and it's really
hard to provide that when thereisn't services on the weekend.
(09:58):
And it's not different when weget older either,
Virginia Townsend (10:01):
no, it's not
Elle Billing (10:02):
because like, structure is helpful.
Virginia Townsend (10:05):
It absolutely is. It really can help some
people, like, hold it togetherand and that's interesting. You
said that about Mondays andFridays because I, on purpose,
have one of my therapy days be aFriday so that I can plan for
the weekend and and it could beas small as, like, what to look
(10:27):
up on my computer. But if Idon't plan for the weekend and
feel okay about it, Friday isjust an awful day.
Elle Billing (10:36):
Yeah, the other time that was the worst was like
coming back from a vacation,like spring break, Christmas
break, Thanksgiving break. Like,that first Monday was always the
kids were just excited. It waslike, they were all happy to see
each other, and they wouldalways want to talk about what
they did. But the Tuesday waslike, Oh, we got through Monday.
This was so easy. The next daywas a disaster. Like, that's
(10:57):
when the shit would hit the fan,and everybody would have, like,
a bunch of trouble, likebehaviors and whatever, and
okay, behaviors using quote,fingers, all behavior is
communication. They're trying tocommunicate something to us.
They are dysregulated. I wonderwhy that is. It was just really
difficult, and always worseafter a prolonged break. And so
doing what we can to provideease of transition to and from
(11:19):
school was always an interestingchallenge.
Virginia Townsend (11:23):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (11:24):
like, how do we, how do we help them feel, like,
safe and secure going back andforth. And I wonder if you can,
you know, with that, like, kindof Stark break, yeah, and it
varied from kid to kid too,because, yeah, you know, it
depended on how well they wereembedded in their family and
their community too.
So I'veSo I've had a little bit of time
(11:54):
to look at some of your art.
It's really quite vibrant. Ireally like it, and I'm curious
about, like, you know your artpractice and how your disability
informs your art, and how, howdoes your art influence the way
that you see your disability?
Like, how do those two thingsplay together?
Virginia Townsend (12:13):
It's a really interesting question that I
hadn't really thought much aboutin the past, but my disability
informs of my art in like thesetwo like kind of opposite ways.
So the first way is that I willpaint on my painting until I am
absolutely sure it's done. And Ican't put my name on the back if
(12:34):
I'm not certain. And part ofbeing certain is my own opinion.
But I also ask a bunch of peoplearound me, because I go to that
day program, so I ask people'sopinions of it before I fully
make up my mind. And it's thismix of perfectionism and self
doubting, because I want my workto be outstanding, like it's
(12:57):
that perfectionism that creepsin and just the the sense that I
can't judge myself, that myjudgment is not trustworthy. And
so it's it's an interesting mix.
The other way that my disabilitycan inform my art is that as
fast as I can paint, and I doreally like paint fast I can a
(13:19):
painting in the morning, couldlook completely different at the
end of the day. And as fast as Ican do that, I can also slow
down if I'm triggered bysomething, usually music that I
heard growing up. So if I havethis, this very annoying problem
where, if I like, I could bedoing just fine. I could be
(13:46):
enjoying myself, talking withpeople, having a good time, and
if I hear any song that I heardgrowing up, and it doesn't
matter the genre, it doesn'tmatter like, you know, it could
be a sample. It could be someonesinging it, um, I will most
likely have a meltdown. And whatthat like looks like is I could
(14:09):
do the like, you know, thatlike, yell crying, where you're,
like, trying to explain, you'reso upset, and you're crying, and
you're talking to somebody, andyou're so you're so upset that,
like, you can't control yourvoice volume,
Elle Billing (14:24):
yeah, yep, yeah.
Virginia Townsend (14:25):
So that's like, that yell, crying, um,
just meltdowns. And usually,after that, as long as I speak
to somebody, it's got, it'sbetter in like, a few minutes,
but then I'm usually so worn outthat I need to sleep, and I
usually can't paint after thatuntil the next day. So that's
(14:49):
how my disability affects my artand informs it, but my art
influences, really how I viewmyself in this way that I just
find really beautiful. Becausein the past, like when I
explained to doctors ortherapists, because, you know,
I've seen every doctor, I'veseen every therapist, I'm in the
(15:09):
rehab, like three to five timesI can't remember, and every time
I would talk to a professional,they I always heard this
response of, oh, you have somuch potential. You'll
eventually be independent.
You'll be successful, like, youknow, just work hard at it. And
through my art career, whichstarted in a day services
(15:31):
program, it didn't start on myown, and through doing that,
I've learned that like half ofthat statement was right, and I
did. And I do have a lot ofpotential. I have this crazy, or
I shouldn't say crazy, but Ihave this strong ambition that
does not quit. I will apply foreverything, be rejected for
(15:54):
everything, and apply the nextyear. And I have this drive to
learn everything I can aboutwhat interests me so that I can
do it to the best of my ability.
Because I'm-- I don't likecompetition, but I am in
competition with myself, and Ialways want to win with myself.
Elle Billing (16:13):
Yeah.
Virginia Townsend (16:14):
So my art has really taught me that if I if I
have, like, total independence,which is like in the layperson
definition, like no professionalsupports, I wouldn't survive
life. You know, I need mysupports. I need my day
supports, and I can need thatand be successful with my art.
Elle Billing (16:37):
I think you hit on something really important
there. One (16:39):
independence is overrated
Virginia Townsend (16:44):
Absolutely
Elle Billing (16:46):
and it can and it can be dangerous, like it is,
it's dangerous for some, it'sharmful for some people. And I
was on the the other side ofthat equation as a teacher,
where we are, you know, Istarted in the elementary
program and then moved up tosecondary, where we write, help
students write their PostSecondary Transition Plans, and
there's a lot of emphasis onindependence, and we start
(17:08):
writing transition plans whenthey're 14. So we want them to
start thinking about their postsecondary transition and their
career, and how they're going tospend their post high school
life when they're 14 years old.
I don't know about you, but whenI was going through puberty,
what I was thinking about in 10years was very fantastical, like
it wasn't rooted in reality. AndI certainly, even if I had had
(17:32):
some supports to like, buildtoward that, and I did, based on
the family that I grew up in, inthe school that I had, but,
like, it wasn't reallyrealistic, and it's, I think
that's asking a lot of kids andteenagers. And I think for some
of us, day programs exist for areason. You know, people can be
(17:53):
embedded in the community andstill need a lot of support. And
I think the focus onindependent, independent,
independent is missing the markfor a lot of a lot, a lot of
people, and it doesn't mean thatwe can't do cool things and
accomplish things and besuccessful.
Virginia Townsend (18:12):
Yeah, I I agree with that, and I also
think that, and I could be wrongabout this, but this is kind of
my experience, is that the moreyou move away from services,
especially residential services,the more kind of incentives you
have in the framework. It's justthis idea of living in your own
(18:38):
space is like the ideal. And Ithink maybe the root of that is
some fantastical idea thatdisabled people can recover and
not be disabled, which is areally not great way to think if
they can't. And then I alsothink it's rooted in finances.
(19:01):
You know, when I lived in anassisted living that home was
getting $247,000 a year toassist me, and I moved out into
an ICS facility, and they, Ialways read that the papers I
get from the county with whateverybody's being paid, because
I can get mad about it, and theICS I live in is getting
(19:26):
$117,000 a year. So it's likeevery level you step down, it's
less less money that Medicaid ispaying for. And I understand the
idea of cutting out waste. Butwhenever anybody cuts out waste,
they're cutting the wrongthings. They're cutting they're
(19:47):
cutting things they know nothingabout.
Unknown (19:49):
right?
Elle Billing (19:49):
Right. They see line items, and we see people
absolutely and just and I can'tstress this enough, yeah, some
people with disabilities canimprove. Great. Some people with
disabilities make it to a pointwhere they're they don't
consider themselves, or doctorswouldn't consider them disabled.
Great. Some people staydisabled. Some people get worse.
(20:14):
I just would wish that peoplewould understand that kind of
spectrum, because it's like yousaid, it's dangerous to give
somebody less support than theyneed. Results in a life turned
upside down.
(20:41):
You started painting in in a dayprogram. That's how you started.
So how does your art, like,communicate about like your
inner world, or what it is thatyou're experiencing, is that? Is
that why you started painting?
Virginia Townsend (20:55):
When I realized that I needed somewhere
to go every day so that I couldboth socialize and feel like I
had a purpose in this world.
Because when you're somebody whostruggles to work, the narrative
around what you can do to havepurpose is not really taught.
You know, it's, it's, it's kindof uncharted territory, because
(21:19):
if you can't work, it's like,this idea of like, well, what
can you do? You know,
Elle Billing (21:25):
it's that capitalist--
Virginia Townsend (21:27):
absolutely
Unknown (21:28):
ableism.
Elle Billing (21:28):
ableism-- It's all that big, messy knot--
Virginia Townsend (21:31):
yep
Elle Billing (21:31):
that goes along right with that independent
living thing. They're allconnected.
Virginia Townsend (21:37):
They really are. And so I wanted to go to a
day program, and I'd never beento one before, but I wanted to
go to one where I could do art.
Because in the past, like, kindof off and on, I would dabble in
painting, and I do it in thatway where, like, you're sitting
on the floor and you have, like,your limited paints around you,
and it's very informal, but itwas an interest of mine. And so
(21:59):
with my paintings, I kind ofwent through stages. There were
landscapes, there were figuredrawings, and I kind of landed
on abstract art. And if you lookat my current body of work, some
of my paintings look similar toeach other, like almost like
(22:19):
reiterations of themselves, andthen some look completely
different. And this is becausewhenever there's a big change in
my life or a trauma, or evensomething as small as like my
seat location changing, I canget really disoriented, so much
that it feels like I'm like,starting over and I can't
(22:43):
remember how to paint. Like, Iwon't be able to like. I'll sit
down with a paint on woodpanels, and I'll sit down with a
wood panel. I'll look at mybrushes, and I'm like, wait,
what like? How do I do thisagain? And so I won't remember
how to start. I won't remember,like, what to do after I start,
(23:05):
or like how to know if I finishthe painting, I'll notice that,
like, it's harder to talk to thepeople I'm around, even if I
know them. And I get annoyedjust like trying to hold a
conversation that's more thanpleasantries, because I just
feel so different. And I thinkthis is why there are shifts in
my entire body of work. It is athing that happens, and I think
(23:29):
that people may be able to seeit when they look at my work,
but I have that, I still havethat, like veil of privacy about
why it happens, you know, likeyou couldn't tell from looking
at my work why it happens, butyou can see that it happens.
Elle Billing (23:45):
Oh, that's really interesting. So you mentioned
that that the shifts happen ifyou've experienced a trauma, or
if something changes in yourenvironment, what is? What is
something that you wish thatfolks who aren't disabled or who
don't have mental illness knewor understood about PTSD and
trauma disorders.
Virginia Townsend (24:06):
Okay, get ready, because I have a list.
Elle Billing (24:09):
Awesome. Yeah, that's why we have Hoorf.
Virginia Townsend (24:13):
Oh my gosh, so Okay. The first thing is, I
wish so much that people wouldunderstand how trauma, whether
it's like a short term or longterm traumas, how they show up
in people's behaviors andattitudes and abilities to like
regulate themselves, and I wouldbe lying if I said I wasn't a
(24:36):
little bitter that horrifictrauma experiences seem to be a
common plot point in moviescurrently,
Elle Billing (24:46):
oh my gosh, yeah, yeah. It's awful, right?
Absolutely awful.
Virginia Townsend (24:50):
And yet, when people are faced with other
people who in real life haveexperienced even like similar
things, you know just awful, andthey struggle with those lasting
effects, the triggers that theyhave are treated as if they're
dislikes or preferences. Inreducing those triggers is like,
(25:13):
it's just too much effort. Theperson is viewed as being too
much, and even if it makes thespace inaccessible for somebody,
it's just the idea is like, Oh,you dislike this? Well, we
can't, we can't controleverything, and even if it's
like one specific thing. And Ifound that in my experience, you
know, I will talk about oldermusic, what I realize people are
(25:37):
hearing is I don't like music,which is absolutely not it at
all. And so like people withlasting effects from trauma,
they can appear needy ordemanding of reassurance, but
this, it's like you said,behavior is communication, and
it's often because they hadtheir needs neglected by
(25:58):
supports who, instead of beingreliable, we're inconsistent. An
example of that for me is that Ican call often or email often,
so like, if I call a company, orif I'm calling the county, you
know, I can call them every fewhours, and I don't leave
messages, because that would betoo much. But it's not that I'm
(26:22):
angry or frustrated, it's thatI'm sitting with my question,
which is unanswerable unless Italk to the person I need to
talk to, and and sitting withthat not knowing and knowing
that somebody has the answer,feels so intolerable. And you
know, if I could figure it outmyself, I definitely would. I'm
such a fan of searching forstuff, but in situations where
(26:45):
I'm waiting for a response, I'llfrequently call, because my
mindset is, well, what if theyanswer this time? What if
they're sitting at their deskright now and they would answer
the phone if I call, and thenwith that thought, I have to
call, yeah, because I have totake that chance. Because if I,
if I, you know, quote, unquote,win. If I'm right, if they do
(27:07):
answer, then I can stop beinganxious. And my caddy waiver
manager is so amazing. She getsthis about me, and she tells me
that if I'm anxious, I can callher as many times as I need,
even on the weekend, could be 10times in a day, doesn't she
understands? Because if she'sbusy or on a home visit, her
(27:28):
phone is on silent, or it's inher car, and she gets she gets
it. It's a self regulatingthing, you know, and others
usually do not get that. Andthen I think the last thing I'll
say, and I could talk about thisfor the end of time, but the
last thing I'll say on thatquestion is, you know,
frequently, like people withtrauma who didn't learn self
(27:52):
regulation as kids, and thiscould be people who didn't learn
it growing up, and then had thetrauma later In life. You know,
like you see that with militaryor you see, you know, just
trauma can happen to so manypeople, and if they don't have
the self regulation skills, theyusually, in my experience, for
(28:13):
me and seeing others, theydepend on outward behaviors to
regulate so it can come off aslike demanding, it can come off
as emotional as havingmeltdowns, which are actually
can be a form of selfregulation, but like, in my
experience, coming off asdemanding, it's and it's really
(28:33):
the exact opposite, like I knowwhen people are starting to
think I'm annoying and I feelshame about it, like when I'm on
that seventh call, like I feellike a terrible person, but, I
mean, I don't have-- it feelslike I don't have another
option, like, if I'm consciousin the moment, I don't know any
(28:55):
other way to relieve thepressure and calm my anxiety.
Elle Billing (28:59):
Yeah, my partner was-- just recently posted
something on social media aboutall the micro shame that goes
with ADHD. And it's like, wealso don't want to be doing what
we are doing. We are fully awareof how we are inconveniencing
and annoying other people. Like,we don't want our brain to work
or not work the way that itdoes. We're doing the best we
can, trust me,
Virginia Townsend (29:20):
yeah. Yeah.
Elle Billing (29:22):
Like, there's tons of yeah, there's lots. And I
think that's one of the things,at least for I think what at
least the neuro divergences thatI have experience with both
myself and with the people in myclose circle is just like the
shame that goes along with doingwhat we know we need to
regulate, or to get information,or to get through the day
(29:43):
knowing that, like, Oh, I knowthis is like driving people
crazy, but I'm doing the best Ican. And if you just help me
with this one thing, trust me,it'll be better after this
Virginia Townsend (29:53):
absolutely like, I, you know, I my first
day program was different thanthis. Um, and I would have this
thing where, like, if a staffperson would come in, and if
anything different, you know, ifthey seemed different in any
way, if they were quiet, or ifthey if their face didn't look
the same, I felt compelled toemail them and with just one
(30:17):
question. It was, is everythingokay? And I wasn't asking about,
like, I don't need to knowwhat's going on with them. I
don't need to, you know, know,any personal details. Like,
really, all I'm looking for isa, yes, that's it. And I think
if you don't understand wheresomeone's coming from, that
(30:38):
might, that might be annoying.
But at the same time, I feellike it's not asking for much,
Elle Billing (30:45):
yeah, like assessing the temperature of the
room Absolutely,
Virginia Townsend (30:49):
Absolutely,
Elle Billing (30:49):
Is everyone good?
No, yeah.
Virginia Townsend (30:52):
Is anything bad happening?
Elle Billing (30:54):
Do I need to fix something?
Virginia Townsend (30:57):
Oh, my gosh, that's a t-- Whenever anybody
seems upset. My brain is like,Okay, your turn! fix it.
Elle Billing (31:06):
Yeah, yeah,
Virginia Townsend (31:07):
you're in charge. You're in charge
everybody. You have to regulateeverybody's emotions.
Elle Billing (31:12):
Oh, I don't know what that's like at all. Oh,
wait, yeah, yes, I do.
Virginia Townsend (31:19):
Can we go? I think we went over the How does
PTSD impact? And then go to thesleep question,
Elle Billing (31:26):
yeah, sure
Virginia Townsend (31:28):
I appreciate that. Sorry.
Elle Billing (31:29):
You want to talk about how PTSD impacts your day
to day life?
Virginia Townsend (31:32):
yeah. I think people aren't used to maybe
seeing or recognizing when PTSDis a daily struggle for people,
and especially when it'sdisabling.
Elle Billing (31:36):
You had said something earlier about how like
trauma is like glamorized,almost, because there's so many
TV shows and movies that usemajor trauma as a plot point.
And I think that might be partof it, because we have a very
(31:57):
limited view of what PTSD lookslike,
Virginia Townsend (32:00):
Absolutely,
Elle Billing (32:01):
and partly because we think of PTSD as something
that happens to soldiers orpeople who have a single
traumatic like one singletraumatic event. And I think
there's a lot that can be doneto sort of educate about
complex, long term trauma, buthow that manifests in people's
daily lives is still somethingpeople don't understand. Sorry,
(32:22):
go ahead
Virginia Townsend (32:23):
yeah, I absolutely, I do blame media,
because there's no you know,you'll, you'll see a dramatized
movie talking about somebody whohas this just enormous trauma
happened to them, and it, maybeit's ongoing, maybe it's not,
and then the end of the movie isthe person being rescued, or the
(32:45):
end of the it never goes pastthat and that. That bothers me,
because, you know, the effectsof trauma, I think the
layperson, or someone whodoesn't have experience with
that could name maybe, like,two, yeah, like flashbacks,
anxiety, insomnia, and I alsothink that it's a failing of the
(33:09):
medical industry, society,whatever you want to call it,
because there's for trauma. Asfar as I know, it's the
diagnosis is PTSD. Like youmentioned, complex PTSD. And I
think that's a very valuableframework. And if you look up
Complex PTSD, you can see whatkind of long term effects can
(33:30):
live with the person. AndComplex PTSD isn't technically a
diagnosis, yeah. And I thinkit's harmful to put everybody
who has PTSD because, like, onetrauma, PTSD tends to go away
within six months. Complex PTSDcan affect who you are as a
human and so, like, okay for me,with my symptoms, with my
(33:58):
difficulties, I have a lot oftriggers, and I have a lot of
fears. If I hear music that Ihear growing up, I have a
meltdown. If I see TV that I sawgrowing up, I have a meltdown.
If I hear jingles fromcommercials when I was growing
up, meltdown. I also havetrouble even with current media,
like current movies, currentshows, when they flash back to
(34:21):
like a year before the year2000, I can't deal. I will try,
because I want to watch theshow, and then I just start to
feel myself get angrier andangrier, and it's almost
disconnected from what I'mwatching. But I've learned to
tell that it is very connected.
I can't watch black and white TVshows or movies, even if they're
(34:42):
current, because the visual. ifI'm alone for more than an hour
or two, I start to feel trappedwhere I am and like, not in the
existential way of feelingtrapped, but in a way where it
feels like I'm not allowed toleave and like it's against the
rules, quote, unquote. Andduring these times, you know, I
have a dog who is the mostamazing thing in my life. And
(35:05):
during those times, which oftenhappen on the weekend, sometimes
I feel it's hard not to feelshame, especially when it comes
to pets, but I'll usually haveto use a diaper with him,
because it feels like beingoutside isn't an option, but
having a pet and taking care ofa pet and loving a pet and a pet
(35:28):
loving you, it helps me feellike when I do feel like I'm
confined within the walls I'min, it feels better knowing that
my dog is with me, like, Oh,he's he's trapped here too. We
can be trapped here togetherand, you know, but what, what
does? And this is why I needservices, right, staff at home
(35:51):
so, and he's lived with me andassisted living before. But
because what breaks it is like,it's going outside. Because
once, if I'm able to go outside,my brain just shifts. It's just
when I'm alone to motiva--, not,It's not motivation. It when I'm
alone to, like, understand thatI'm allowed to leave through the
(36:14):
door. It just, it's, it doesn'thappen. So I just have staff
intervene if I'm able to. I alsolike, yelp and flinch at many
unexpected sounds. The mostannoying to me is when a door
closes, I will be like, Oh, I'membarrassed that I'm still
(36:35):
wildly hyper alert. Bubble wrapbeing popped, that kind of
stuff. Also being in grocerystores is hard any kind of store
if they're playing old music.
Same thing for medical lobbies.
You'd be surprised being in amedical cab if the driver is
playing music before the year,2000 in my purse, I always have
(36:58):
two sets of headphones on me.
One is like the emergencyheadphones, which are noise
canceling. I use them inemergency situations where the
music is loud, because I dislikehaving noise canceling on it
makes me feel like I can'tmonitor my surroundings. So I
(37:22):
also have a pair of headphonesthat are those, like bone
conduction ones, and they allowme to hear my surroundings, but
they're able to drown out, likesofter old music, like if it was
coming from, you know, a grocerystore or the lobby of my
dentist, that kind of thing.
Elle Billing (37:39):
That's a lot.
Virginia Townsend (37:39):
It's annoying, but I'm, I'm trying to
learn to, like, not even thinkof it as annoying. It's, it's
not annoying, it's, it's how mybrain can hold itself together.
My brain is holding itselftogether with a whole lot of
tape.
Elle Billing (37:56):
Yeah, it's working really hard.
Virginia Townsend (37:57):
Yeah, it's working really hard. And I think
feeling annoyed about it is myway of appeasing the way society
can view it. I think it's likean internalization of, like, oh
yeah, this is so annoying that Ihave this trigger. Like,
actually, it's, it's not, it'sjust painful.
Elle Billing (38:16):
Yeah, wow, I don't have anything after that.
Virginia Townsend (38:20):
That's just fine,
Elle Billing (38:21):
yeah
Virginia Townsend (38:22):
Thank you for listening. Yeah, thank you for
sharing all that. Did you wantto take a few minutes to talk
about your how sleep messes withyour creativity?
Absolutely
Elle Billing (38:34):
because I think that's really, I think that's
really relatable to a lot of us.
Sleep is something a lot of usare chasing, like quality sleep.
Virginia Townsend (38:41):
Yeah, I definitely have experience with
that. So I've been diagnosedwith both narcolepsy and
idiopathic hypersomnia. I wasdiagnosed with narcolepsy back
when idiopathic hypersomniadidn't have any FDA treatment.
So doctors would diagnosenarcolepsy so that you have
(39:01):
insurance to pay for treatment.
Elle Billing (39:04):
Yep,
Virginia Townsend (39:04):
and I have been through the ringer with
trying to find meds that work,and I eventually saw a sleep
medicine doctor who he informedme that sometimes when people
have a lot of trauma, they canhave these episodes of sleep
(39:29):
attacks that really mirrornarcolepsy. And in his
experience, when people havelarge amounts of trauma, and if
they don't respond well to themedication, like stimulants,
like they may work for a weekand then stop, and then you're
(39:49):
back trying to switch. Andgranted, you can become tolerant
of stimulants, but in hisexperience, that can indicate
dissociation and this idea thatyou are having these sleep
attacks when it's really yourbrain, like shutting down real
quick and having that experienceof dissociation, because, like
(40:14):
you said, like my brain worksharder than a brain can work
without a break like that. Soyeah, my sleep schedule is also
based on my triggers, so it'sbeen pretty unique for a few
years now. I do take this likeheavy sleep med that's
(40:34):
impossible to stay awakethrough, and I love it. And on a
good day, I'll take it at 4pmand on a bad day, I'll take it
at three because I just want theday to be over with. And then
ideally, ideally, I would wakeup at 4pm but, or, sorry, 4am
ideally, I would wake up at 4ambut often it's between two and
(40:56):
four, AM, and I developed asleep schedule because I have
this trauma response where Ifeel a sense of dread and doom
at a certain time of day,usually between like three and
7pm because for me, those thatwould be the time when schools
(41:17):
ended, You're at home, butyou're not unconscious, asleep
yet. So when I was in college,to deal with those feelings of
like, yes, the most horrendouslike, feel like you're just the
world is gonna collapse on you,I would do these little things
like, take the bus to Walgreensand buy shampoo during that
(41:40):
time, and then the next day, Iwould take the bus to Walgreens
and buy conditioner, you know,like I would do anything I could
to be out, because as long asI'm out or asleep, it's okay,
but if I'm at home and awakeduring those times, is when it
just feels intolerable. So theresult of my sleep schedule is
(42:01):
that I've actually only been toone art opening ever, because a
lot of events will take place inin the evening or in the
evenings.
Elle Billing (42:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Virginia Townsend (42:12):
And last year, I was awarded Best in Show
for one of my paintings atArtability, and they told me,
and for the closing ceremonies,they were like giving out
awards, and they let me know,and I couldn't go. It was I.
There's no way I would have beenable to stay up that late. So I
just imagined it would be like.
this year, I am feeling up tochallenging myself, and I think
(42:39):
that feeling up to challengingyourself is really important,
yes, because they feel likepeople shouldn't challenge
themselves because they feelthey have to. I think you can
hurt yourself that way. Thisyear, I want to challenge
myself, and I feel like I cansucceed by attending there's a
donor event on the 24th October,24, and it's for Artability. And
(42:59):
I'll be giving a speech, whichI've written. So, you know,
pressures off a little bit, soI've been working myself up to
staying up later. And staying upthat late is still something I
would probably only do, like,once every six months, yeah. But
you know, even if I do that,that's way better than the last
(43:20):
seven, eight years.
Unknown (43:25):
That's
Virginia Townsend (43:25):
That's like, a really cool, like, measurable
goal to work yourself uptowards, and for a really good
reason, too.
Thank you.
Elle Billing (43:32):
Yeah, thanks for sharing all that. Thanks for
being here. No, thank you. We'reout of time.
Virginia Townsend (43:38):
Oh, I'm so sorry.
Elle Billing (43:40):
No, it's great. We had a wonderful conversation. We
didn't get to talk about, like,the thing that we talked about
on the phone.
Virginia Townsend (43:45):
Oh, oh, I know, I know you had sent me
that list of questions, and thelast question on that list, I
thought was really beautiful.
Elle Billing (43:55):
Oh, that's right.
Let's do that one, and thenwe'll go. So what is one? What
is one true thing you havelearned from your creative
practice?
Virginia Townsend (44:02):
I love this question, and my answer is that
the one true thing I've learnedfrom my creative practice is
that I can be skilled atsomething and successful at
something while receiving directsupport, you know, like I can
manage my career and have 24/7staffing too. And this is true
(44:25):
for me, because every person,every person with a disability,
is unique. But I don't have togive up one for the other. I
don't have to not be successfulto have 24/7 staffing. I don't
have to not live in aresidential setting with
services to be successful, youknow, and they can go together
just fine. They don't conflict.
Elle Billing (44:48):
I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This
was so nice. Yeah, where canpeople go to find you on socials
or the internet or wherever?
Virginia Townsend (44:59):
Well, luckily. Actually, my SEO is
working now. And yeah, so if youtype my name into Google, the
first result will be my website.
So Virginia Townsend, Virginiahas three I's in it,
surprisingly. So V, I R, G, I,N, I, A, and then my last name,
T, O, W, N, S, E, N, D, dot com
Elle Billing (45:23):
perfect.
Virginia Townsend (45:23):
And, yeah, that really shows. I have my
figure drawings and my abstractart there, as well as the
statement a bio and just kind ofwhat I'm all about.
Elle Billing (45:35):
Awesome. I will put that in the show notes so
everyone can find you. Thank youso much for being here.
Virginia Townsend (45:41):
Oh, thank you for having me. It means a lot. I
really care about this stuff.
Elle Billing (45:49):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf. To get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit hoorfpodcast dotcom. Join the Blessed Herd of St
Winkus. By signing up for ournewsletter. You can get Hoorf
episodes delivered directly toyour inbox. What's more, you get
(46:11):
invitations to our monthlyCoffee & Biscuits Chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that at hoorfpodcastdot com. If you become a patron
for only $3 a month, you cansupport the creation of this
podcast, help pay my editor, andjoin a community of caregivers
(46:31):
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf.
Until next time, be excellent toeach other.
Hoorf is hosted by Elle Billing@elleandwink audio editing by
Ricki Cummings @rickiep00h musiccomposed by Ricki Cummings.
(46:53):
Hoorf is a production of Elle &Wink Art Studio LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms. At
Hoorf podcast, at H, O, O, R, Fpodcast
Virginia Townsend (47:15):
hard to find a good donut.
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
Radical Care in a Late-Capitalist Heckscape.
(01:02):
My guest for this episode isTwin Cities- Metro based artist
Virginia Townsend, who createsunder the moniker Bunnie
Rabbitte. Virginia paints fromher experience with mental
health, illness, disability andher own unique vision of
recovery. Born to parents livingwith mental illness, Virginia
honed her critical thinkingskills early by discerning
between her parents'hallucinations, illusions, and
(01:23):
reality. In her artisticwork,Virginia uses this skill to play
with concepts of objective truthand perception and how they
intertwine in mental healthrecovery communities. Since 2019
Virginia has been creating artfull time with her current
practice, supported by MSS, aprogressive day program
supporting people withdisabilities. Living with her
own mental illness, she hasexperienced making art in non
(01:45):
traditional settings. Shelearned to connect emotion and
image in hospital-basedoccupational therapy programs,
and continued her journey bypainting full time in adult day
programs. Having spent time ininpatient mental health units so
frequently, she is a strongsense of community and belonging
with individuals frequentlyhospitalized, or so-called
revolving door patients, and theunique obstacles they face in
(02:08):
receiving care. Quiet in person,her voice speaks loudly through
her abstract and figurative art.
Townsend brings attention tocracks and support services,
lack of safe assisted livingsettings for women and queer
identified folks, and wellintentioned policy that may have
disastrous effects. Sheadvocates for people most
vulnerable to abuse that need24/7 supports and cannot find
settings without sacrificingprivacy or choice of whom they
(02:31):
reside with. Townsend is arecipient of fiscal year 2024
creative individuals grantfunded by the Minnesota State
Arts Board and the NationalEndowment for the Arts. She's
also the grantee of Arts Midwest2024 Midwest Award for Artists
with Disabilities. I am excitedto have Virginia on the podcast
with me today.
(02:55):
Hi, Virginia. How are you doingtoday?
Virginia Townsend (02:57):
I'm doing great. How are you?
Elle Billing (02:59):
Not too bad. It's great to have you on the
podcast. I'm excited to have youhere today.
Virginia Townsend (03:04):
Yeah, I'm excited too. Thank you for
inviting me.
Elle Billing (03:07):
Of course, I'm excited to have you here for our
listeners. This is my secondinterview with a winner of the
Midwest Award for Artists withDisabilities for this season of
Hoorf, and I'm really excited tohave another one of my fellow
artist cohort with me on thepodcast today. It's been really
(03:28):
fun to reach out and chat withartists and our little elite
group of nine and get to knowtheir art and get to know them.
And I'm really happy to haveVirginia on the podcast today.
Virginia Townsend (03:40):
Thank you.
Elle Billing (03:41):
You're in Minnesota, yes?
Virginia Townsend (03:43):
I am
Elle Billing (03:44):
Yep. And I'm in North Dakota, so we're like,
little neighbors,ah, yeah, I want to go to North
Dakota. I like that idea of justvast land, just like the idea of
emptiness.
yes, yeah. And I'm on theeastern part of the state, so
like, you wouldn't be too far,like, once you cross the border,
(04:05):
like, you would be really close.
You could come say hi, um,actually, we drive, I drive
through your city on my way tovisit my sister. So,
Virginia Townsend (04:13):
oh, wow,
Elle Billing (04:14):
you're actually, like, we're, I mean, it's like a
several hour drive, but like,yeah, you're still probably the
closest one to me. Of all,
Virginia Townsend (04:25):
we'll have some planning to do, I guess.
Elle Billing (04:27):
So we'll have to go to Oakdale and get Duck
Donuts.
Virginia Townsend (04:31):
They-- Oh my gosh. First of all, I don't know
what you're talking about, butsecond of all, I really want to
go.
Elle Billing (04:38):
Okay, so my sister used to work in Oakdale, and
there's, it's like a small donutshop. There's like, three of
them in the cities, and they'relike, really, really good
donuts. I don't know why they'recalled Duck Donuts. It's the
name of the place, but they'relike, when I was staying with
them one time, he came home fromwork with like, a dozendonuts,
(05:00):
and she had made sure that hegot enough that were like, not
that were allergy friendly forme, because there's so many
flavors of things that I can'teat. And I was like, Oh, my God,
it was like a lemonade flavoreddonut, yeah, yeah,
Virginia Townsend (05:16):
that sounds really nice.
Elle Billing (05:18):
And there were strawberry lemonade ones too,
but I am allergic tostrawberries, so, like, I had it
was just like a lemon, like,they melted in my mouth. And it
was like, this is a really gooddonut. Like, I should come visit
more often. I mean, like, Yes, Ilove my sister and her family.
But also, these are really gooddonuts.
Virginia Townsend (05:35):
Hard to find a good donut, yeah.
Unknown (05:38):
So,
Elle Billing (05:38):
So, yeah, I'll go visit my sister. I'll swing
through and see you. I'll bringyou donuts.
Virginia Townsend (05:42):
Thank you.
Yeah,
Elle Billing (05:45):
we'll have an art date.
Virginia Townsend (05:47):
Yeah, yes.
Elle Billing (05:48):
And then then you'll have to come up here and
visit just the vast emptiness.
Take pictures of it. Yeah,there's really good donuts in
Fargo, though, too. So like, Ican take you for donuts there. I
can take you to see the woodchipper from the movie Fargo.
Virginia Townsend (06:05):
Oh!
Elle Billing (06:06):
it's in our visitor center, and then the
vast emptiness of the rest of
Virginia Townsend (06:10):
yeah, yes,
Elle Billing (06:12):
just miles of corn,
Virginia Townsend (06:16):
the landscape with the beautiful, rich colors,
Elle Billing (06:20):
yeah, it's--
Virginia Townsend (06:21):
or gray tone colors. I don't really know,
never been there.
Elle Billing (06:23):
Yeah, it's right now it's brown because we're
harvesting corn, and the corn,you know, it turns brown before
you harvest it.
Virginia Townsend (06:33):
It's interesting.
Elle Billing (06:34):
Like, it's green all summer, and then it like,
has to dry, and so now it's justreally brown.
Virginia Townsend (06:40):
Yep, I like it,
Elle Billing (06:41):
and the leaves are turning. It's nice. Fall is my
favorite. Summer makes me fairlymiserable. I can't regulate my
temperature, and I just amcranky all summer long.
Virginia Townsend (06:53):
Fall is nice, yeah, it is especially now.
Elle Billing (06:57):
So my first question that I ask all of my
guests is, how have you receivedcare this week?
Virginia Townsend (07:04):
Yeah, I love that question, and I'm really
fortunate because I receive alot of services. I'm fortunate
to be in Minnesota because theyare they really take care of
people in Minnesota. I grew upin Texas, and Texas was
different,
Elle Billing (07:25):
Quite different.
Virginia Townsend (07:26):
It is. It's, um, it's tough to I think-- I
,growing up, I remember seeing adoctor one time till I moved to
Minnesota at 17. So, yeah, it'sit's a little tough. But um, so
this week, I have seen mytherapist, who I see twice a
(07:49):
week, and during the daytime,during the weekdays, I go to a
adult day center called MSSMidwest Special Services, and
they have a lot of locations,but I go to the Eagan one, and
it's a place where people withdisabilities of all kinds and
sorts and different functioningneeds and support needs can go
(08:13):
and receive staffing during theday. After that programming, I
go home, and I have my ownapartment in a building that's
called an ICS building, and Ireceive services and staffing
there too, not as intensely asat my day program, but I usually
(08:37):
have a couple hours with staff aday, and it's called ICS, which
is integrated communitysupports. And I try to spend as
little time as I can alone, likeI don't-- I have trouble being
alone, but at certain times,like on the weekends,
especially, you know, it'sdifficult for me to have
(08:58):
staffing at home. It's alwaysreally confused me, like you can
have such intensive servicesduring the five day weekdays and
then nothing on the weekend. AndI've never really understood how
that makes sense.
Elle Billing (09:15):
Something I noticed when I was in education
too, is like because I worked ata residential school, is we had
structure and services for thekids the whole time they were
there. And then they on the daythey would go home, kids would
start having meltdowns becausethey the transition was so hard,
and they knew they were going togo back to like, wherever they
went on the weekends. And so thelast day of the school week, the
(09:37):
last half of the last day of theschool week, and then the first
half of the first day of theweek, kids were just all over
the place because of that,transition from no structure to
structure every single week wasreally difficult for them,
because what they needed wasconsistency, and it's really
hard to provide that when thereisn't services on the weekend.
(09:58):
And it's not different when weget older either,
Virginia Townsend (10:01):
no, it's not
Elle Billing (10:02):
because like, structure is helpful.
Virginia Townsend (10:05):
It absolutely is. It really can help some
people, like, hold it togetherand and that's interesting. You
said that about Mondays andFridays because I, on purpose,
have one of my therapy days be aFriday so that I can plan for
the weekend and and it could beas small as, like, what to look
(10:27):
up on my computer. But if Idon't plan for the weekend and
feel okay about it, Friday isjust an awful day.
Elle Billing (10:36):
Yeah, the other time that was the worst was like
coming back from a vacation,like spring break, Christmas
break, Thanksgiving break. Like,that first Monday was always the
kids were just excited. It waslike, they were all happy to see
each other, and they wouldalways want to talk about what
they did. But the Tuesday waslike, Oh, we got through Monday.
This was so easy. The next daywas a disaster. Like, that's
(10:57):
when the shit would hit the fan,and everybody would have, like,
a bunch of trouble, likebehaviors and whatever, and
okay, behaviors using quote,fingers, all behavior is
communication. They're trying tocommunicate something to us.
They are dysregulated. I wonderwhy that is. It was just really
difficult, and always worseafter a prolonged break. And so
doing what we can to provideease of transition to and from
(11:19):
school was always an interestingchallenge.
Virginia Townsend (11:23):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (11:24):
like, how do we, how do we help them feel, like,
safe and secure going back andforth. And I wonder if you can,
you know, with that, like, kindof Stark break, yeah, and it
varied from kid to kid too,because, yeah, you know, it
depended on how well they wereembedded in their family and
their community too.
So I'veSo I've had a little bit of time
(11:54):
to look at some of your art.
It's really quite vibrant. Ireally like it, and I'm curious
about, like, you know your artpractice and how your disability
informs your art, and how, howdoes your art influence the way
that you see your disability?
Like, how do those two thingsplay together?
Virginia Townsend (12:13):
It's a really interesting question that I
hadn't really thought much aboutin the past, but my disability
informs of my art in like thesetwo like kind of opposite ways.
So the first way is that I willpaint on my painting until I am
absolutely sure it's done. And Ican't put my name on the back if
(12:34):
I'm not certain. And part ofbeing certain is my own opinion.
But I also ask a bunch of peoplearound me, because I go to that
day program, so I ask people'sopinions of it before I fully
make up my mind. And it's thismix of perfectionism and self
doubting, because I want my workto be outstanding, like it's
(12:57):
that perfectionism that creepsin and just the the sense that I
can't judge myself, that myjudgment is not trustworthy. And
so it's it's an interesting mix.
The other way that my disabilitycan inform my art is that as
fast as I can paint, and I doreally like paint fast I can a
(13:19):
painting in the morning, couldlook completely different at the
end of the day. And as fast as Ican do that, I can also slow
down if I'm triggered bysomething, usually music that I
heard growing up. So if I havethis, this very annoying problem
where, if I like, I could bedoing just fine. I could be
(13:46):
enjoying myself, talking withpeople, having a good time, and
if I hear any song that I heardgrowing up, and it doesn't
matter the genre, it doesn'tmatter like, you know, it could
be a sample. It could be someonesinging it, um, I will most
likely have a meltdown. And whatthat like looks like is I could
(14:09):
do the like, you know, thatlike, yell crying, where you're,
like, trying to explain, you'reso upset, and you're crying, and
you're talking to somebody, andyou're so you're so upset that,
like, you can't control yourvoice volume,
Elle Billing (14:24):
yeah, yep, yeah.
Virginia Townsend (14:25):
So that's like, that yell, crying, um,
just meltdowns. And usually,after that, as long as I speak
to somebody, it's got, it'sbetter in like, a few minutes,
but then I'm usually so worn outthat I need to sleep, and I
usually can't paint after thatuntil the next day. So that's
(14:49):
how my disability affects my artand informs it, but my art
influences, really how I viewmyself in this way that I just
find really beautiful. Becausein the past, like when I
explained to doctors ortherapists, because, you know,
I've seen every doctor, I'veseen every therapist, I'm in the
(15:09):
rehab, like three to five timesI can't remember, and every time
I would talk to a professional,they I always heard this
response of, oh, you have somuch potential. You'll
eventually be independent.
You'll be successful, like, youknow, just work hard at it. And
through my art career, whichstarted in a day services
(15:31):
program, it didn't start on myown, and through doing that,
I've learned that like half ofthat statement was right, and I
did. And I do have a lot ofpotential. I have this crazy, or
I shouldn't say crazy, but Ihave this strong ambition that
does not quit. I will apply foreverything, be rejected for
(15:54):
everything, and apply the nextyear. And I have this drive to
learn everything I can aboutwhat interests me so that I can
do it to the best of my ability.
Because I'm-- I don't likecompetition, but I am in
competition with myself, and Ialways want to win with myself.
Elle Billing (16:13):
Yeah.
Virginia Townsend (16:14):
So my art has really taught me that if I if I
have, like, total independence,which is like in the layperson
definition, like no professionalsupports, I wouldn't survive
life. You know, I need mysupports. I need my day
supports, and I can need thatand be successful with my art.
Elle Billing (16:37):
I think you hit on something really important
there. One (16:39):
independence is overrated
Virginia Townsend (16:44):
Absolutely
Elle Billing (16:46):
and it can and it can be dangerous, like it is,
it's dangerous for some, it'sharmful for some people. And I
was on the the other side ofthat equation as a teacher,
where we are, you know, Istarted in the elementary
program and then moved up tosecondary, where we write, help
students write their PostSecondary Transition Plans, and
there's a lot of emphasis onindependence, and we start
(17:08):
writing transition plans whenthey're 14. So we want them to
start thinking about their postsecondary transition and their
career, and how they're going tospend their post high school
life when they're 14 years old.
I don't know about you, but whenI was going through puberty,
what I was thinking about in 10years was very fantastical, like
it wasn't rooted in reality. AndI certainly, even if I had had
(17:32):
some supports to like, buildtoward that, and I did, based on
the family that I grew up in, inthe school that I had, but,
like, it wasn't reallyrealistic, and it's, I think
that's asking a lot of kids andteenagers. And I think for some
of us, day programs exist for areason. You know, people can be
(17:53):
embedded in the community andstill need a lot of support. And
I think the focus onindependent, independent,
independent is missing the markfor a lot of a lot, a lot of
people, and it doesn't mean thatwe can't do cool things and
accomplish things and besuccessful.
Virginia Townsend (18:12):
Yeah, I I agree with that, and I also
think that, and I could be wrongabout this, but this is kind of
my experience, is that the moreyou move away from services,
especially residential services,the more kind of incentives you
have in the framework. It's justthis idea of living in your own
(18:38):
space is like the ideal. And Ithink maybe the root of that is
some fantastical idea thatdisabled people can recover and
not be disabled, which is areally not great way to think if
they can't. And then I alsothink it's rooted in finances.
(19:01):
You know, when I lived in anassisted living that home was
getting $247,000 a year toassist me, and I moved out into
an ICS facility, and they, Ialways read that the papers I
get from the county with whateverybody's being paid, because
I can get mad about it, and theICS I live in is getting
(19:26):
$117,000 a year. So it's likeevery level you step down, it's
less less money that Medicaid ispaying for. And I understand the
idea of cutting out waste. Butwhenever anybody cuts out waste,
they're cutting the wrongthings. They're cutting they're
(19:47):
cutting things they know nothingabout.
Unknown (19:49):
right?
Elle Billing (19:49):
Right. They see line items, and we see people
absolutely and just and I can'tstress this enough, yeah, some
people with disabilities canimprove. Great. Some people with
disabilities make it to a pointwhere they're they don't
consider themselves, or doctorswouldn't consider them disabled.
Great. Some people staydisabled. Some people get worse.
(20:14):
I just would wish that peoplewould understand that kind of
spectrum, because it's like yousaid, it's dangerous to give
somebody less support than theyneed. Results in a life turned
upside down.
(20:41):
You started painting in in a dayprogram. That's how you started.
So how does your art, like,communicate about like your
inner world, or what it is thatyou're experiencing, is that? Is
that why you started painting?
Virginia Townsend (20:55):
When I realized that I needed somewhere
to go every day so that I couldboth socialize and feel like I
had a purpose in this world.
Because when you're somebody whostruggles to work, the narrative
around what you can do to havepurpose is not really taught.
You know, it's, it's, it's kindof uncharted territory, because
(21:19):
if you can't work, it's like,this idea of like, well, what
can you do? You know,
Elle Billing (21:25):
it's that capitalist--
Virginia Townsend (21:27):
absolutely
Unknown (21:28):
ableism.
Elle Billing (21:28):
ableism-- It's all that big, messy knot--
Virginia Townsend (21:31):
yep
Elle Billing (21:31):
that goes along right with that independent
living thing. They're allconnected.
Virginia Townsend (21:37):
They really are. And so I wanted to go to a
day program, and I'd never beento one before, but I wanted to
go to one where I could do art.
Because in the past, like, kindof off and on, I would dabble in
painting, and I do it in thatway where, like, you're sitting
on the floor and you have, like,your limited paints around you,
and it's very informal, but itwas an interest of mine. And so
(21:59):
with my paintings, I kind ofwent through stages. There were
landscapes, there were figuredrawings, and I kind of landed
on abstract art. And if you lookat my current body of work, some
of my paintings look similar toeach other, like almost like
(22:19):
reiterations of themselves, andthen some look completely
different. And this is becausewhenever there's a big change in
my life or a trauma, or evensomething as small as like my
seat location changing, I canget really disoriented, so much
that it feels like I'm like,starting over and I can't
(22:43):
remember how to paint. Like, Iwon't be able to like. I'll sit
down with a paint on woodpanels, and I'll sit down with a
wood panel. I'll look at mybrushes, and I'm like, wait,
what like? How do I do thisagain? And so I won't remember
how to start. I won't remember,like, what to do after I start,
(23:05):
or like how to know if I finishthe painting, I'll notice that,
like, it's harder to talk to thepeople I'm around, even if I
know them. And I get annoyedjust like trying to hold a
conversation that's more thanpleasantries, because I just
feel so different. And I thinkthis is why there are shifts in
my entire body of work. It is athing that happens, and I think
(23:29):
that people may be able to seeit when they look at my work,
but I have that, I still havethat, like veil of privacy about
why it happens, you know, likeyou couldn't tell from looking
at my work why it happens, butyou can see that it happens.
Elle Billing (23:45):
Oh, that's really interesting. So you mentioned
that that the shifts happen ifyou've experienced a trauma, or
if something changes in yourenvironment, what is? What is
something that you wish thatfolks who aren't disabled or who
don't have mental illness knewor understood about PTSD and
trauma disorders.
Virginia Townsend (24:06):
Okay, get ready, because I have a list.
Elle Billing (24:09):
Awesome. Yeah, that's why we have Hoorf.
Virginia Townsend (24:13):
Oh my gosh, so Okay. The first thing is, I
wish so much that people wouldunderstand how trauma, whether
it's like a short term or longterm traumas, how they show up
in people's behaviors andattitudes and abilities to like
regulate themselves, and I wouldbe lying if I said I wasn't a
(24:36):
little bitter that horrifictrauma experiences seem to be a
common plot point in moviescurrently,
Elle Billing (24:46):
oh my gosh, yeah, yeah. It's awful, right?
Absolutely awful.
Virginia Townsend (24:50):
And yet, when people are faced with other
people who in real life haveexperienced even like similar
things, you know just awful, andthey struggle with those lasting
effects, the triggers that theyhave are treated as if they're
dislikes or preferences. Inreducing those triggers is like,
(25:13):
it's just too much effort. Theperson is viewed as being too
much, and even if it makes thespace inaccessible for somebody,
it's just the idea is like, Oh,you dislike this? Well, we
can't, we can't controleverything, and even if it's
like one specific thing. And Ifound that in my experience, you
know, I will talk about oldermusic, what I realize people are
(25:37):
hearing is I don't like music,which is absolutely not it at
all. And so like people withlasting effects from trauma,
they can appear needy ordemanding of reassurance, but
this, it's like you said,behavior is communication, and
it's often because they hadtheir needs neglected by
(25:58):
supports who, instead of beingreliable, we're inconsistent. An
example of that for me is that Ican call often or email often,
so like, if I call a company, orif I'm calling the county, you
know, I can call them every fewhours, and I don't leave
messages, because that would betoo much. But it's not that I'm
(26:22):
angry or frustrated, it's thatI'm sitting with my question,
which is unanswerable unless Italk to the person I need to
talk to, and and sitting withthat not knowing and knowing
that somebody has the answer,feels so intolerable. And you
know, if I could figure it outmyself, I definitely would. I'm
such a fan of searching forstuff, but in situations where
(26:45):
I'm waiting for a response, I'llfrequently call, because my
mindset is, well, what if theyanswer this time? What if
they're sitting at their deskright now and they would answer
the phone if I call, and thenwith that thought, I have to
call, yeah, because I have totake that chance. Because if I,
if I, you know, quote, unquote,win. If I'm right, if they do
(27:07):
answer, then I can stop beinganxious. And my caddy waiver
manager is so amazing. She getsthis about me, and she tells me
that if I'm anxious, I can callher as many times as I need,
even on the weekend, could be 10times in a day, doesn't she
understands? Because if she'sbusy or on a home visit, her
(27:28):
phone is on silent, or it's inher car, and she gets she gets
it. It's a self regulatingthing, you know, and others
usually do not get that. Andthen I think the last thing I'll
say, and I could talk about thisfor the end of time, but the
last thing I'll say on thatquestion is, you know,
frequently, like people withtrauma who didn't learn self
(27:52):
regulation as kids, and thiscould be people who didn't learn
it growing up, and then had thetrauma later In life. You know,
like you see that with militaryor you see, you know, just
trauma can happen to so manypeople, and if they don't have
the self regulation skills, theyusually, in my experience, for
(28:13):
me and seeing others, theydepend on outward behaviors to
regulate so it can come off aslike demanding, it can come off
as emotional as havingmeltdowns, which are actually
can be a form of selfregulation, but like, in my
experience, coming off asdemanding, it's and it's really
(28:33):
the exact opposite, like I knowwhen people are starting to
think I'm annoying and I feelshame about it, like when I'm on
that seventh call, like I feellike a terrible person, but, I
mean, I don't have-- it feelslike I don't have another
option, like, if I'm consciousin the moment, I don't know any
(28:55):
other way to relieve thepressure and calm my anxiety.
Elle Billing (28:59):
Yeah, my partner was-- just recently posted
something on social media aboutall the micro shame that goes
with ADHD. And it's like, wealso don't want to be doing what
we are doing. We are fully awareof how we are inconveniencing
and annoying other people. Like,we don't want our brain to work
or not work the way that itdoes. We're doing the best we
can, trust me,
Virginia Townsend (29:20):
yeah. Yeah.
Elle Billing (29:22):
Like, there's tons of yeah, there's lots. And I
think that's one of the things,at least for I think what at
least the neuro divergences thatI have experience with both
myself and with the people in myclose circle is just like the
shame that goes along with doingwhat we know we need to
regulate, or to get information,or to get through the day
(29:43):
knowing that, like, Oh, I knowthis is like driving people
crazy, but I'm doing the best Ican. And if you just help me
with this one thing, trust me,it'll be better after this
Virginia Townsend (29:53):
absolutely like, I, you know, I my first
day program was different thanthis. Um, and I would have this
thing where, like, if a staffperson would come in, and if
anything different, you know, ifthey seemed different in any
way, if they were quiet, or ifthey if their face didn't look
the same, I felt compelled toemail them and with just one
(30:17):
question. It was, is everythingokay? And I wasn't asking about,
like, I don't need to knowwhat's going on with them. I
don't need to, you know, know,any personal details. Like,
really, all I'm looking for isa, yes, that's it. And I think
if you don't understand wheresomeone's coming from, that
(30:38):
might, that might be annoying.
But at the same time, I feellike it's not asking for much,
Elle Billing (30:45):
yeah, like assessing the temperature of the
room Absolutely,
Virginia Townsend (30:49):
Absolutely,
Elle Billing (30:49):
Is everyone good?
No, yeah.
Virginia Townsend (30:52):
Is anything bad happening?
Elle Billing (30:54):
Do I need to fix something?
Virginia Townsend (30:57):
Oh, my gosh, that's a t-- Whenever anybody
seems upset. My brain is like,Okay, your turn! fix it.
Elle Billing (31:06):
Yeah, yeah,
Virginia Townsend (31:07):
you're in charge. You're in charge
everybody. You have to regulateeverybody's emotions.
Elle Billing (31:12):
Oh, I don't know what that's like at all. Oh,
wait, yeah, yes, I do.
Virginia Townsend (31:19):
Can we go? I think we went over the How does
PTSD impact? And then go to thesleep question,
Elle Billing (31:26):
yeah, sure
Virginia Townsend (31:28):
I appreciate that. Sorry.
Elle Billing (31:29):
You want to talk about how PTSD impacts your day
to day life?
Virginia Townsend (31:32):
yeah. I think people aren't used to maybe
seeing or recognizing when PTSDis a daily struggle for people,
and especially when it'sdisabling.
Elle Billing (31:36):
You had said something earlier about how like
trauma is like glamorized,almost, because there's so many
TV shows and movies that usemajor trauma as a plot point.
And I think that might be partof it, because we have a very
(31:57):
limited view of what PTSD lookslike,
Virginia Townsend (32:00):
Absolutely,
Elle Billing (32:01):
and partly because we think of PTSD as something
that happens to soldiers orpeople who have a single
traumatic like one singletraumatic event. And I think
there's a lot that can be doneto sort of educate about
complex, long term trauma, buthow that manifests in people's
daily lives is still somethingpeople don't understand. Sorry,
(32:22):
go ahead
Virginia Townsend (32:23):
yeah, I absolutely, I do blame media,
because there's no you know,you'll, you'll see a dramatized
movie talking about somebody whohas this just enormous trauma
happened to them, and it, maybeit's ongoing, maybe it's not,
and then the end of the movie isthe person being rescued, or the
(32:45):
end of the it never goes pastthat and that. That bothers me,
because, you know, the effectsof trauma, I think the
layperson, or someone whodoesn't have experience with
that could name maybe, like,two, yeah, like flashbacks,
anxiety, insomnia, and I alsothink that it's a failing of the
(33:09):
medical industry, society,whatever you want to call it,
because there's for trauma. Asfar as I know, it's the
diagnosis is PTSD. Like youmentioned, complex PTSD. And I
think that's a very valuableframework. And if you look up
Complex PTSD, you can see whatkind of long term effects can
(33:30):
live with the person. AndComplex PTSD isn't technically a
diagnosis, yeah. And I thinkit's harmful to put everybody
who has PTSD because, like, onetrauma, PTSD tends to go away
within six months. Complex PTSDcan affect who you are as a
human and so, like, okay for me,with my symptoms, with my
(33:58):
difficulties, I have a lot oftriggers, and I have a lot of
fears. If I hear music that Ihear growing up, I have a
meltdown. If I see TV that I sawgrowing up, I have a meltdown.
If I hear jingles fromcommercials when I was growing
up, meltdown. I also havetrouble even with current media,
like current movies, currentshows, when they flash back to
(34:21):
like a year before the year2000, I can't deal. I will try,
because I want to watch theshow, and then I just start to
feel myself get angrier andangrier, and it's almost
disconnected from what I'mwatching. But I've learned to
tell that it is very connected.
I can't watch black and white TVshows or movies, even if they're
(34:42):
current, because the visual. ifI'm alone for more than an hour
or two, I start to feel trappedwhere I am and like, not in the
existential way of feelingtrapped, but in a way where it
feels like I'm not allowed toleave and like it's against the
rules, quote, unquote. Andduring these times, you know, I
have a dog who is the mostamazing thing in my life. And
(35:05):
during those times, which oftenhappen on the weekend, sometimes
I feel it's hard not to feelshame, especially when it comes
to pets, but I'll usually haveto use a diaper with him,
because it feels like beingoutside isn't an option, but
having a pet and taking care ofa pet and loving a pet and a pet
(35:28):
loving you, it helps me feellike when I do feel like I'm
confined within the walls I'min, it feels better knowing that
my dog is with me, like, Oh,he's he's trapped here too. We
can be trapped here togetherand, you know, but what, what
does? And this is why I needservices, right, staff at home
(35:51):
so, and he's lived with me andassisted living before. But
because what breaks it is like,it's going outside. Because
once, if I'm able to go outside,my brain just shifts. It's just
when I'm alone to motiva--, not,It's not motivation. It when I'm
alone to, like, understand thatI'm allowed to leave through the
(36:14):
door. It just, it's, it doesn'thappen. So I just have staff
intervene if I'm able to. I alsolike, yelp and flinch at many
unexpected sounds. The mostannoying to me is when a door
closes, I will be like, Oh, I'membarrassed that I'm still
(36:35):
wildly hyper alert. Bubble wrapbeing popped, that kind of
stuff. Also being in grocerystores is hard any kind of store
if they're playing old music.
Same thing for medical lobbies.
You'd be surprised being in amedical cab if the driver is
playing music before the year,2000 in my purse, I always have
(36:58):
two sets of headphones on me.
One is like the emergencyheadphones, which are noise
canceling. I use them inemergency situations where the
music is loud, because I dislikehaving noise canceling on it
makes me feel like I can'tmonitor my surroundings. So I
(37:22):
also have a pair of headphonesthat are those, like bone
conduction ones, and they allowme to hear my surroundings, but
they're able to drown out, likesofter old music, like if it was
coming from, you know, a grocerystore or the lobby of my
dentist, that kind of thing.
Elle Billing (37:39):
That's a lot.
Virginia Townsend (37:39):
It's annoying, but I'm, I'm trying to
learn to, like, not even thinkof it as annoying. It's, it's
not annoying, it's, it's how mybrain can hold itself together.
My brain is holding itselftogether with a whole lot of
tape.
Elle Billing (37:56):
Yeah, it's working really hard.
Virginia Townsend (37:57):
Yeah, it's working really hard. And I think
feeling annoyed about it is myway of appeasing the way society
can view it. I think it's likean internalization of, like, oh
yeah, this is so annoying that Ihave this trigger. Like,
actually, it's, it's not, it'sjust painful.
Elle Billing (38:16):
Yeah, wow, I don't have anything after that.
Virginia Townsend (38:20):
That's just fine,
Elle Billing (38:21):
yeah
Virginia Townsend (38:22):
Thank you for listening. Yeah, thank you for
sharing all that. Did you wantto take a few minutes to talk
about your how sleep messes withyour creativity?
Absolutely
Elle Billing (38:34):
because I think that's really, I think that's
really relatable to a lot of us.
Sleep is something a lot of usare chasing, like quality sleep.
Virginia Townsend (38:41):
Yeah, I definitely have experience with
that. So I've been diagnosedwith both narcolepsy and
idiopathic hypersomnia. I wasdiagnosed with narcolepsy back
when idiopathic hypersomniadidn't have any FDA treatment.
So doctors would diagnosenarcolepsy so that you have
(39:01):
insurance to pay for treatment.
Elle Billing (39:04):
Yep,
Virginia Townsend (39:04):
and I have been through the ringer with
trying to find meds that work,and I eventually saw a sleep
medicine doctor who he informedme that sometimes when people
have a lot of trauma, they canhave these episodes of sleep
(39:29):
attacks that really mirrornarcolepsy. And in his
experience, when people havelarge amounts of trauma, and if
they don't respond well to themedication, like stimulants,
like they may work for a weekand then stop, and then you're
(39:49):
back trying to switch. Andgranted, you can become tolerant
of stimulants, but in hisexperience, that can indicate
dissociation and this idea thatyou are having these sleep
attacks when it's really yourbrain, like shutting down real
quick and having that experienceof dissociation, because, like
(40:14):
you said, like my brain worksharder than a brain can work
without a break like that. Soyeah, my sleep schedule is also
based on my triggers, so it'sbeen pretty unique for a few
years now. I do take this likeheavy sleep med that's
(40:34):
impossible to stay awakethrough, and I love it. And on a
good day, I'll take it at 4pmand on a bad day, I'll take it
at three because I just want theday to be over with. And then
ideally, ideally, I would wakeup at 4pm but, or, sorry, 4am
ideally, I would wake up at 4ambut often it's between two and
(40:56):
four, AM, and I developed asleep schedule because I have
this trauma response where Ifeel a sense of dread and doom
at a certain time of day,usually between like three and
7pm because for me, those thatwould be the time when schools
(41:17):
ended, You're at home, butyou're not unconscious, asleep
yet. So when I was in college,to deal with those feelings of
like, yes, the most horrendouslike, feel like you're just the
world is gonna collapse on you,I would do these little things
like, take the bus to Walgreensand buy shampoo during that
(41:40):
time, and then the next day, Iwould take the bus to Walgreens
and buy conditioner, you know,like I would do anything I could
to be out, because as long asI'm out or asleep, it's okay,
but if I'm at home and awakeduring those times, is when it
just feels intolerable. So theresult of my sleep schedule is
(42:01):
that I've actually only been toone art opening ever, because a
lot of events will take place inin the evening or in the
evenings.
Elle Billing (42:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Virginia Townsend (42:12):
And last year, I was awarded Best in Show
for one of my paintings atArtability, and they told me,
and for the closing ceremonies,they were like giving out
awards, and they let me know,and I couldn't go. It was I.
There's no way I would have beenable to stay up that late. So I
just imagined it would be like.
this year, I am feeling up tochallenging myself, and I think
(42:39):
that feeling up to challengingyourself is really important,
yes, because they feel likepeople shouldn't challenge
themselves because they feelthey have to. I think you can
hurt yourself that way. Thisyear, I want to challenge
myself, and I feel like I cansucceed by attending there's a
donor event on the 24th October,24, and it's for Artability. And
(42:59):
I'll be giving a speech, whichI've written. So, you know,
pressures off a little bit, soI've been working myself up to
staying up later. And staying upthat late is still something I
would probably only do, like,once every six months, yeah. But
you know, even if I do that,that's way better than the last
(43:20):
seven, eight years.
Unknown (43:25):
That's
Virginia Townsend (43:25):
That's like, a really cool, like, measurable
goal to work yourself uptowards, and for a really good
reason, too.
Thank you.
Elle Billing (43:32):
Yeah, thanks for sharing all that. Thanks for
being here. No, thank you. We'reout of time.
Virginia Townsend (43:38):
Oh, I'm so sorry.
Elle Billing (43:40):
No, it's great. We had a wonderful conversation. We
didn't get to talk about, like,the thing that we talked about
on the phone.
Virginia Townsend (43:45):
Oh, oh, I know, I know you had sent me
that list of questions, and thelast question on that list, I
thought was really beautiful.
Elle Billing (43:55):
Oh, that's right.
Let's do that one, and thenwe'll go. So what is one? What
is one true thing you havelearned from your creative
practice?
Virginia Townsend (44:02):
I love this question, and my answer is that
the one true thing I've learnedfrom my creative practice is
that I can be skilled atsomething and successful at
something while receiving directsupport, you know, like I can
manage my career and have 24/7staffing too. And this is true
(44:25):
for me, because every person,every person with a disability,
is unique. But I don't have togive up one for the other. I
don't have to not be successfulto have 24/7 staffing. I don't
have to not live in aresidential setting with
services to be successful, youknow, and they can go together
just fine. They don't conflict.
Elle Billing (44:48):
I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This
was so nice. Yeah, where canpeople go to find you on socials
or the internet or wherever?
Virginia Townsend (44:59):
Well, luckily. Actually, my SEO is
working now. And yeah, so if youtype my name into Google, the
first result will be my website.
So Virginia Townsend, Virginiahas three I's in it,
surprisingly. So V, I R, G, I,N, I, A, and then my last name,
T, O, W, N, S, E, N, D, dot com
Elle Billing (45:23):
perfect.
Virginia Townsend (45:23):
And, yeah, that really shows. I have my
figure drawings and my abstractart there, as well as the
statement a bio and just kind ofwhat I'm all about.
Elle Billing (45:35):
Awesome. I will put that in the show notes so
everyone can find you. Thank youso much for being here.
Virginia Townsend (45:41):
Oh, thank you for having me. It means a lot. I
really care about this stuff.
Elle Billing (45:49):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf. To get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit hoorfpodcast dotcom. Join the Blessed Herd of St
Winkus. By signing up for ournewsletter. You can get Hoorf
episodes delivered directly toyour inbox. What's more, you get
(46:11):
invitations to our monthlyCoffee & Biscuits Chat, where
you get to hang out with Rickiand Elle, talk about the show
and connect on the topics thatmean the most to you. You can
sign up for that at hoorfpodcastdot com. If you become a patron
for only $3 a month, you cansupport the creation of this
podcast, help pay my editor, andjoin a community of caregivers
(46:31):
out here, just doing our best.
Thank you again for joining me,Elle Billing, the chronically
ill queer femme who is verytired, on this episode of Hoorf.
Until next time, be excellent toeach other.
Hoorf is hosted by Elle Billing@elleandwink audio editing by
Ricki Cummings @rickiep00h musiccomposed by Ricki Cummings.
(46:53):
Hoorf is a production of Elle &Wink Art Studio LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms. At
Hoorf podcast, at H, O, O, R, Fpodcast
Virginia Townsend (47:15):
hard to find a good donut.
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