April 8, 2024 • 43 mins
Our personal and brand stories are powerful tools to connect with others, and marketing in the last several years has exploded with story-based strategies for everyone from solopreneurs to huge corporations. Max Kringen, the founder of a Fargo-based story-driven creative studio, joins Elle to talk about the power of story not just for a marketing edge, but for its ability to foster community, build empathy, and share our vision for how we want the world to look.
Links to connect with Max and Tellwell Story Co., and to find Pride Stories Video and Podcast series, are in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elle Billing (00:00):
Hi, my name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:02):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care and
compassionate and sustainableways, and harness creative
expression to heal ourselves and
our worl (00:16):
Radical care in a late capitalist heckscape.
(00:46):
My guest today is Max Kringen.
Max Kringen is the founder andowner of Tellwell Story Co., the
creative studio that specializesin branding, design and web
services. Over the past decade,Max has led the company from its
inception to a successful andrespected firm working with a
diverse range of clients fromsmall nonprofits to Fortune 100
companies across the country.
(01:07):
His entrepreneurial spirit andpassion for storytelling have
been the driving force behindTellwell's growth and success.
Max's approach to business ischaracterized by a deep
commitment to his team andclients, valuing relationships
and the power of storytelling increating impactful and
meaningful connections. Underhis leadership, Tellwell has
become known for its storyfocused, empowering and service
(01:28):
oriented approach, prioritizingcontent first consistency, user
centric design, and integratedcreativity. Max's vision for
Tellwell is not just aboutbusiness success, but also about
making a positive difference inthe world through the art of
storytelling. I'm excited tohave Max on the podcast today.
Welcome.
(01:48):
Hi, Max. Welcome to Hoorf.
Max Kringen (01:49):
Hi, Elle. Thanks for having me.
Elle Billing (01:52):
I'm so excited to see you. It's great to have you
here. I recorded on your podcastlast week. And then I said, Hey,
you want to be on my podcast?
And you said, Heck yeah. That'sbasically how the conversation
went. So we have now seen eachother twice in two weeks after
not seeing each other for almost20 years. So life is good.
Life.
Max Kringen (02:10):
Life is really good. It is so fun to like, see
you, catch up a little bit. It'sactually been really fun to
almost catch up with you throughyour podcast, because I would
say, like, I've learned so-- itfeels like-- I've learned so
much about your life over thelast 20 years, just by the work
that you've been doing on yourpodcast.
Elle Billing (02:31):
Oh, well, thank you. It's, it's certainly been,
like a lot has happened in 20years. So we went to high school
together. We w were in differentyears. But we we have known each
other since elementary school,essentially.
Max Kringen (02:43):
Yep.
Elle Billing (02:44):
Went to the same school. I graduated, and my
sister graduated and yougraduated. And then I just
disappeared.
Max Kringen (02:51):
You really did.
Elle Billing (02:52):
Yeah. And like the last time you saw me, I was
either probably engaged to oralmost married to my high school
sweetheart. And things are verydifferent now.
Max Kringen (03:03):
Very, very different now
Elle Billing (03:04):
very different now.
Max Kringen (03:05):
And that's what I kind of love about this story of
even how we came back together.
Because I think we will talkabout it at some point. But the
podcasts that you came on wasone that we create here at
Tellwell, which is PrideStories, which is sharing
stories of LGBTQIA-plus peoples,and I was like so surprised and
(03:26):
so delighted when I saw aDanielle "Elle" Billing and I
was like, wait, I --
Elle Billing (03:38):
I know them
Max Kringen (03:40):
I know them! Okay, let me like read through this
real quick. I was like, ah, oh,oh, this is gonna be so fun. And
so that was that was a reallyfun moment. But but we never got
to connect through our, ourqueer journeys. Really?
Unknown (03:57):
No,
Elle Billing (03:57):
No, not at all. I mean, you can tell the story on
my podcast that you told onyours, too. When we get a little
bit further down -- or rightnow! -- about my sister. I
actually talked to her aboutthat on the phone today.
Max Kringen (04:07):
Did she remember it?
Elle Billing (04:09):
Kind of?
Max Kringen (04:09):
Or did she just have so many coming out
conversations with all of herfriends. She didn't know
Elle Billing (04:14):
we have so many queer friends. She and I have
fielded many of thoseconversations. Hm, I wonder why?
Max Kringen (04:24):
Comfortability.
Yeah, you're you're you're verywelcoming, though. And your
sister has always been verywelcoming.
Elle Billing (04:30):
She's, She said too, I just was standing in
front of so many closets,waiting, just protecting people.
Like at some point, you have toopen the door and say, Can
somebody come out? I'm justthere's just too many to keep
track. That's what she saidtoday. Like when we were on the
phone. She's like, is thatreally this? Just like is that
really the story Max tellspeople?
Max Kringen (04:51):
Honestly, I think that was maybe the first time
that I've told that story like ii would say, Katie and my
circles don't really like--there. What's the over--
diagram?
Elle Billing (05:02):
don't overlap like a Venn diagram.
Max Kringen (05:04):
they don't overlap a ton anymore? Like they
definitely used to. But, youknow, in the 20 years that we've
been out of school, now, not somuch.
Elle Billing (05:13):
I guess you have to tell the story. Now we've
like teased it. We can get tothe questions in a minute.
Max Kringen (05:18):
Yeah, I feel like if I don't get it perfect, now,
you're gonna be like, wasn'tfactually accurate, but
Elle Billing (05:23):
I wasn't there.
Max Kringen (05:25):
So I remember like I was, I was driving home, and I
had Katie on the phone. And wewere talking about, like, a
relationship thing. I've beentalking about a girl thing. And,
and I finally just, like, cameout, and I was like, and I'm
gay. And she's like, Well, yeah,duh. And, but not in like a
(05:47):
minimizing way. But just like,I'm very, very ready for you to
come out. And that is going tobutcher the story. I should
just, like, grab that sectionand like, bring it back. Because
now I'm trying desperately toremember it. And --
Elle Billing (06:00):
you had said that you were talking about girl
stuff. And then she was like,Max, honey. You know, you're
gay. Right?
Max Kringen (06:08):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (06:08):
like in a very in a very Katie-like loving but
very factual like. We need totalk about this, like, because
the reason you're having girlproblems, that's a very Katie
thing.
Max Kringen (06:19):
Like, what's funny is I remember, like the where I
was. Because I was on like, a42nd Street in Fargo.
Elle Billing (06:28):
Oh, yeah,
Max Kringen (06:28):
like driving my my car that I had in college, which
was like, a Pontiac Grand Prix.
And it was silver. And Iremember this, like, I don't
know why, like I can remember,like, all of the things around
it. But like the actualconversation seems--What just
happened? There was just a noisein the bathroom. And I was like,
(06:49):
what? Nan has coming through thedoor. She misses me.
Elle Billing (06:55):
She probably does.
I don't know. I mean, whywouldn't she?
Max Kringen (06:59):
Why wouldn't she?
Absolutely.
Elle Billing (07:00):
After we recorded your podcast, I told my dad
about it. And he was like, oh,yeah, Max used to come over all
the time. He was always so muchfun.
Max Kringen (07:08):
Oh, that's so sweet.
Elle Billing (07:09):
Yeah,
Max Kringen (07:09):
that's so sweet.
Elle Billing (07:10):
And then he asked about your parents? And he's
like, Oh, I should catch up withthem.
Max Kringen (07:14):
Yeah, but isn't that the Midwest thing to do is
like, how are you? How are yourparents?
Elle Billing (07:18):
How are your parents?
Max Kringen (07:21):
And it's just like, Oh, they're, they're the same as
they always have been. It wasvery sweet. We actually just got
off the phone with with Jon. AndI got a call from like, the
Department of Health for theState of North Dakota. And she's
like, Hi. So we're doing thisprogram, um, you had applied for
(07:43):
this program. It was likeanother benefit that we can
offer here at Tellwell. We hadapplied for this program. And
but Jon was like the the person,like the contact person, because
he's our Controller here atTellwell, after he retired. And
she's like, Yeah, he hung up,and well, he said, Please take
(08:03):
me off your list. This is spam.
And take me off your list andnever call again. And I was
like, oh my god, I'm so sorry.
And she's like, it's fine. Ifeel like my dad would have done
the same thing. And I was like,Oh, so that's how John is?
Elle Billing (08:18):
Yeah, yeah. I live with my parents, right. And I
screen calls for them a lot. AndI am. I think I'm the Jon in
that scenario. When people askfor my parents, I'm like, Are
you scamming seniors for money?
Because that I will not abidethat. Like, because there have
been times where, yes, they arescammers, and they are being
(08:38):
really terrible. And I'm like,Excuse me, excuse me. Like, do
you enjoy your life? Like, areyou happy with your life right
now? Do you really like callingpeople and threatening them?
Like, are you okay with this?
This guy's like, Honey, Honey,get a hold of yourself. And I'm
(08:58):
like, Did you just call mehoney?
Max Kringen (09:00):
Oh, hell know.
Elle Billing (09:01):
He's like we were told that that helps calm people
down. I was like, No, it fillsme with rage when strange men
call me honey.
Max Kringen (09:10):
Whoever gave you that information was was very
mistaken. You know, that makesthose tick tock videos make a
whole lot more sense. Like whenthey catch the scammers and then
they like zoom in on them, and Idon't know how they have access
to their cameras anyway. Doesn'tmatter anyway so so
Elle Billing (09:26):
so anyway, that's that's how life is. It's what
happens when you put two speechkids in front of a microphone
Max Kringen (09:35):
so I know we had mentioned like it talking about
speech a little bit and I justhad this like, wild -- it feels
wild to me that I'm gonna go anddo it because I've said no for
so many years.
Elle Billing (09:49):
Are you judging this weekend?
Max Kringen (09:50):
I'm -- are you judging?!
Elle Billing (09:53):
Yeah, I've been judging, judging all season.
Max Kringen (09:56):
Oh my god. So I'm going to judge regional speech.
Elle Billing (10:01):
Okay, so we'll get to catch up. We don't have to
like, worry about gettingcoffee. We could just go eat
doughnuts in the judges lounge
Max Kringen (10:07):
God, not good doughnuts, like really not, like
stale doughnuts.
Elle Billing (10:12):
They might be good. It might be Sandy's.
Max Kringen (10:15):
I was gonna say when I first started judging
speech like, well, it would havebeen right after I graduated. So
like 15, 17 years ago,
Elle Billing (10:24):
but one of the tournament managers is our old
coach.
Max Kringen (10:28):
Yes, yes. Anyway, I'm very excited. And okay,
well, there we go.
Elle Billing (10:33):
So we were speech kids together. That's how we
know each other.
Max Kringen (10:35):
Yeah. Lots of time in the speech bus. Yeah.
Elle Billing (10:38):
So we reconnected for your podcast, as you
mentioned, which is PrideStories. And like you said,
during the process, we realized,like we hadn't ever shared our
coming out stories, which is whyyou were so excited to have me
on your podcast. And then, yeah,we talked a lot about the 90s
and early 2000s, in small town,North Dakota. And you know,
(10:59):
neither of us came out in highschool, I started to when I was
19, but like, didn't come out tothe rest of my family till I was
like, 31 and divorced. But youhave, I mean, Pride Stories is a
project of Tellwell, which isyour business? So can you share
a bit about like that podcast,but like, also your story? And
why Tellwell decided to do pridestories in our community?
Max Kringen (11:22):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (11:23):
And why that's important to you.
Max Kringen (11:24):
Yeah. So So Tell, Tellwell, has been, we've called
ourselves a story basedmarketing agency, almost since
the beginning. Way before, like,marketing agencies and creative
studios started talking aboutstory and sharing your story and
(11:44):
all that jazz. Like, I don'twant to say like, before it was
cool. But we've really beentalking about the power of story
to connect communities for along time. And I think one of
the things that happened was, aswe've as we've had different
people here at Tellwell, we'vehad kind of different, like,
ebbs and flows. And, you know, Iwould say, early on, we were
(12:09):
very afraid of like, some of ourmore conservative clients being
like, Oh, well, wait a second.
We don't want to work with thosehomos. And unfortunately, we are
in Fargo. And I shouldn't sayunfortunately, I love Fargo
Elle Billing (12:24):
there is at least the benefit that Fargo is a
slightly more liberal pocketthan the rest of the state.
Max Kringen (12:28):
Absolutely.
Elle Billing (12:29):
But it's still but it's still North Dakota,
Max Kringen (12:32):
Right. And a lot of the businesses, the folks that
we rely on to do work with a lotof those business leaders are
fairly conservative,
Elle Billing (12:40):
Like Doug Bergum
Max Kringen (12:42):
like Doug Bergum.
Elle Billing (12:43):
I mean, the governor -- like for people who
don't know who that is, thegovernor of the state of North
Dakota got his start as abusiness person in Fargo. And he
owns a lot of stuff in town.
Max Kringen (12:54):
And you know, really, Doug and Kilbourne Group
is how we started with video atTellwell which is now like, some
of the most amazing work that wedo and like, what's so
frustrating, side tangent,what's so frustrating to me
about,
Elle Billing (13:10):
sorry, I shouldn't like risk your client
relationships by calling out thegovernor.
Max Kringen (13:16):
They're not a client anymore. And that's okay.
But like, one thing that's sofrustrating is I remember when
there was a, there was an eventabout healthcare technology. And
at the time, I worked at a techstartup downtown Fargo. And so I
was sitting in the crowd. Andhe, on the stage in front of
(13:36):
everybody was like, you know,one of the reasons that we need
to be more open to gay marriageis because there's a whole
segment of the population ofreally talented people that
don't feel comfortable workinghere. And so we are missing out
on like the ability to make ourcommunity more rich, as well as
(13:57):
losing out on really significanttalent that could be coming to
our state and to our town. And Iwas like, YEAH DOUG! like, that
was so empowering. And I wasjust like, holy shit, like this
wildly successful person issaying this in front of a room
of conservative, like NorthDakotans, and Midwesterners, and
(14:20):
like good for you, and thank youfor doing that. And so it is
like a really, I have a reallyhard time with the chasm that
has happened between like, Doug,the the objective business
person who recognized like thevalue of our LGBTQIA plus like
brothers and sisters and othersto what it is today, which is
(14:43):
like a shell of of that, and Idon't mean this like
Elle Billing (14:50):
the compromises he had to make to stay, to get into
and to stay in office.
Max Kringen (14:54):
Yeah. And this might be naive of me, but I
really do believe that that,like, first person is still in
there, and I hope, I hopebecause of like, frankly, the
interactions that I've had withhis, with his staff and his
chief of staff is one of myfriends from college and, and I
know he doesn't have thosebeliefs. And so it's really hard
(15:15):
for me to like bridge that. Butyeah, as we kind of come back to
Pride Stories, we were reallystruggling for a while about
like, how do we, how do we carveout our identity and talk about
what we believe in, especiallywhen, you know, some of our
creatives were on the more, Iwould say, like religious side,
(15:36):
but like, not necessarilyspiritual, religious. And so I
struggled with that for a while.
And what's interesting, itwasn't until three years ago,
almost four years ago, my nowbusiness partner Duncan, shared
a video from the Trevor Project.
And the Trevor Project has thislike, basically coming out
stories. And it's a beautifulseries. And he's like, why don't
(15:57):
we do this. And Duncan, for forunderstanding, is straight. He's
married, he has a seven monthold baby, a beautiful baby boy.
And it just boggled my mind thatlike this straight Bro-y kind of
bro-y, guy is coming in andsaying, like, we should do this.
(16:19):
And so we started to dig into ita little bit more. And like,
then I finally got to meet like,some of the rest of his family.
And he started to share aboutlike that relationship. And you
know, he has a twin brother,they look identical. They're not
quite identical, because histwin brother is gay. He's
married to a lovely gentleman,and his sibling is queer. And so
like, he comes from this veryopen and welcoming family, which
(16:43):
was so great.
And we released those over thenext year. And the thing that I
(17:15):
realized, as they were comingout, was, while they were
incredible, and beautiful, andwe won all kinds of awards for
them, which was great. As muchas anything, they were
incredibly well received by thecommunity, and the community was
so excited about them. Andthat's really what told us like,
double down on that, like, tellpeople what you believe in. And
(17:36):
those folks that don't want toassociate with you, let them go
their own way. But there's goingto be a whole lot more people
that probably come your way,because you're being your more
authentic self.
Elle Billing (17:45):
Yes. Like, the people who don't want to do
business with you, becauseyou're making pride story
videos, you don't want theirbusiness anyway.
Max Kringen (17:53):
Exactly.
Elle Billing (17:54):
You don't want to have to tiptoe around them.
Max Kringen (17:56):
You know, it's challenging, because we were
working with a podcast editorpretty recently, and we were
going to move our podcast, theywere going to edit our Pride
Stories podcast. And we got thisvery strange message back that
was like, Hey, um, so we don'thave capacity anymore. Sorry.
We're like, Oh, okay. That'sweird. But then I saw them
(18:20):
advertising for like, forbusiness on their LinkedIn. So I
just reached out. And they'relike, actually, it just doesn't
align with my religious values.
My good Christian values of, andI was like, oh, okay, just say
that. Just say that then say thefirst time. Right? Don't Don't
lie about it. Because I feellike that is maybe you know,
explicitly written Yeah. Like,do not lie
Elle Billing (18:47):
do not lie
Max Kringen (18:47):
do not pass go. But beyond that, so pride stories,
the podcast actually came from abit of a realization it was one
of those like, midnightrealizations where you kind of
sit up and you're like,
Elle Billing (19:01):
I have those all the time
Max Kringen (19:04):
they're either the worst or the best, especially if
you can remember them the nextday
Elle Billing (19:07):
That's why I keep a notebook next to my bed
Max Kringen (19:09):
smart. I don't know what happened to it because
sometimes I like also keep likemy glass of water there and I
just like weighing and you knowthat then you're really up so.
But what I realized and this isthis is no criticism to the
original project, but like itwas a lot of cis white men and
(19:29):
women talking about their gaystories, their lesbian stories.
Elle Billing (19:33):
Yep.
Max Kringen (19:34):
And so there was very little actual
representation of who I lovinglyrefer to as the alphabet mafia.
Right. So So Pride Stories thepodcast is ,as much as anything,
a way to like, bring down theproduction time just a little
bit, to get as many more storiesas we can. So that's where pride
(19:58):
stories the podcast came from.
And, again, thank you for beingon it.
Elle Billing (20:03):
Yeah, you're welcome. I, you just you put out
a call with-- I don't even knowif it was on Instagram or your
personal Facebook or what?
Max Kringen (20:09):
Probably both?
Elle Billing (20:10):
Yeah, probably both. I was like, oh, I should
do that. And you know, havingalso having my own podcast too,
like one of the things that Ialso like about doing a podcast
versus some other form of mediais that you can reach other
people who you may not be ableto get to come into a studio.
You know, I have, I have afriend in Michigan who is
(20:30):
professor of social work, andthey are chronically ill,
they're immunocompromised now,they now have long COVID. And
they've been able to maintaintheir, their teaching duties,
because they can work remotely,they don't have to go into, into
the office anymore. And theisolation is really difficult
(20:51):
for them emotionally, butthey're also able to keep
themselves safe. Yeah, you know,and so being able to do remote
recording, like we're doingright now, opens up a level of
accessibility, that I think alot of people don't necessarily
think about, too.
Max Kringen (21:08):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (21:09):
And that was something we were that was
something we were talking aboutbefore we hit record too, is
that I'm, I'm trying to set upa, an appointment with a woman
who is blind. And the softwarethat I use-- that we're using
right now to record-- isn'taccessible to the accessibility
software that a lot of blindpeople use for accessing
computer software. None of thebuttons are labeled for screen
(21:29):
readers. And so we need to findan alternative for recording.
And I think that is reallyfrustrating.
Max Kringen (21:36):
It's frustrating, because there's ways-- not
terribly difficult ways-- to fixthose things. One of my
leadership coaches recently, shewas a designer on the original
Google Maps. And she'sincredible, just like a badass,
like design leader manager. AndI was sharing with her a little
(22:03):
bit of frustration because likewe had a client that was being
particularly difficult about --and Forgive me, because this was
like, frankly, before Iunderstood, how some of these
like screen readers worked, andand what that accessibility
looks like. But I was getting alittle bit frustrated because it
(22:23):
was compromising our design,right, compromising our color
palette.
I say that now dripping withsarcasm in a client was like we
were getting frustrated with aclient because they were doing
that. And what she said to mewas Max, when you design for
accessibility, everybody wins.
Elle Billing (22:44):
Yes.
Max Kringen (22:45):
Right. And it's not just the people who have, you
know, if you think about thebell curve, it's not just the
people on one or the other. Butlike, everybody actually wins
with that. And whether that beproper contrast, proper sizing,
alt tags on your photos, right?
Like there is a business benefitto having alt tags on your
(23:07):
photos, in addition toempowering people with visual
impairments to understand whatthe, what that page is, and like
what the purpose of it is, andthose types of things.
Elle Billing (23:20):
Yeah, it's good for your SEO
Max Kringen (23:21):
it's good for SEO, right? Like there's a business
case to also be accessible. Andit shouldn't just be when people
are being sued, that they'rethinking about accessibility and
making their stories accessibleto as wide of an audience as
they can
Elle Billing (23:37):
Right. You know, I worked at a school for the deaf
and blind and so accessib--. Wetalked about accessibility of
our stuff all the time, youknow, captions on videos, verbal
descriptions on videos, makingsure that our bulletin boards
had Braille descriptions of whatwas visually on the bulletin
board and things like that.
Interpreters available at allevents. And so accessibility was
just built into everything. ButI had a hard time starting out
(24:00):
with visual descriptions of myphotos, I just didn't know where
to start. I was like, how do youdescribe a photo? I don't know.
That's why I'm using Instagrambecause I'm a visual artist,
like,I don't know how --? So Ihired somebody for a while to do
my descriptions for me just toget over that hump, because I
just didn't know I was like,I'll hire somebody to do it.
(24:20):
Then I'll have like a bank ofdescriptions and that'll, like,
at least get my momentum going.
And it was another disabledperson that I hired to do it.
And I think the key there islike, Tellwell did pride
stories, the video series andpride stories, the podcast, and,
you know, you lead with yourheart and you lead with your
ethics because you're gay,Duncan has gay and queer family
(24:42):
members. And it's because thatsensibility is already built
into your company because youhave diverse members of your
business. And when you havepeople who are disabled, who
work in a business, or in aschool, or in a system,
accessibility is more at theforefront. Or that type of
(25:06):
diversity is already like partof the thinking of the
organization because the peoplewho are doing it are there. And
when you have a startup, one ofthe problems of startup culture
is, I mean, things that they raninto with like Lyft And Uber is
that there were no disabledpeople who worked for the
startup. And so theinaccessibility of people's
(25:28):
individual cars versus, youknow, taxis or municipal
transportation or things likethat. No one was thinking about,
well, what happens if there's awheelchair user who wants to use
Uber? Because, well, no onethinks about those things if
they don't have to.
Max Kringen (25:44):
So So break that down, like where that actually
like, gets to the foundation ofthat, is leading with empathy.
Right, and when you'veexperienced those types of
things, and those types of, youknow, whether you've been
discriminated against because ofability, or discriminated
(26:04):
against because of who you love,or discriminated against,
because of your gender. When youget to experience those,
suddenly, it doesn't matternecessarily what the other-ism
is.
Because you've experienced it inany way, in my case, like, I am
(26:25):
a I'm a cisgender, white man, Ican code switch like that,
right? Like I can get up infront of that group of
conservative North Dakotans andbe like, well, Hi, friends, my
name is Max. And I love tatertot hot dish, and like get the
crowd going here
Elle Billing (26:41):
tater tot hoddish is really good
Max Kringen (26:44):
friggin delicious.
But like, I have that ability todo it. And so I actually see it
as, as a, not just anopportunity, but like an
obligation to bring other folksalong with me. Right. And so I
think about my stories, thepodcast, even more specifically,
(27:05):
one of the things I've I'vereally struggled with, is trying
to share the stories of like ourtransgender brothers and
sisters. Because I would saylike, in a very similar way to
how maybe like a straight personcan't put themselves in the
place of a gay person to belike, I just don't understand
(27:27):
that you can be attracted todudes, or I just cannot
understand how you would beattracted to women. I was
struggling with that. And what Ifound so fascinating, is, you
know, I'm 10, 12 interviews intopride stories, the podcast, and
throughout that, I think I'vehad four or so folks that
identify as transgender, and Iget it now. Right, like, but but
(27:50):
it is through that opening of adialogue and saying, like, Hey,
let me invite you into thisconversation, invite you into
sharing your story. And I thinkthat there needs to be more of
that. In I don't know how weforce that upon people to like,
especially people that haven'tgotten to experience
(28:11):
discrimination in various ways,how we encourage them to invite
those conversations, but it'sreally important.
Elle Billing (28:19):
So what does it mean to you to tell a story
well?
Max Kringen (28:24):
as I think about telling the story, I actually
sometimes reframe it. And Ioftentimes talk about sharing a
story versus versus telling thestory.
Elle Billing (28:33):
Tell Well, sounds better as the brand name.
Max Kringen (28:36):
It does, it does.
Elle Billing (28:38):
It just rolls off the tongue, but no. Yeah. So
sharing your story well.
Max Kringen (28:41):
ShareWell, no, but but I love to share stories,
because stories have thisability to connect seemingly
disparate people. And one of thethings that you're always trying
to do with in story, if youthink about like almost any of
the major storytellingframeworks, one of the primary
ones that we use is the hero'sjourney, where, where you always
(29:05):
want to position yourself as theguide to let whoever you're
talking to be the hero, andyou're trying to help them get
to their heroic ending. And sowhat we love to do is we really
love to position nonprofits,small businesses, big
businesses, as the guide, sothat way, whoever they're
serving can be positioned as asthe hero. I think one of the
(29:29):
most interesting things abouthow to tell a story well, is
there are there kind of threemain things that you really have
to identify (29:38):
what is the problem? Right, and, and, and
we'd like to go a little bitdeeper. We like to talk about
like, what is the externalproblem? Like what is the overt
problem? What is the internalproblem? And then what's the
philosophical problem thathappens with it? And so if you
think about that, if we use theexample. We'll do this. We'll
(30:01):
just do this in real time. Ifyou think about one of your
students, what is the externalproblem of one of your students
who might be deaf?
Elle Billing (30:10):
They're behind in reading. I was-- the one that
that's the one that I ran intothe most often probably, at
least, or the parents wouldidentify immediately. They're
behind in reading,
Max Kringen (30:20):
they're behind in reading. The internal challenge
is, how does it make them feel?
Elle Billing (30:25):
Exactly. Yes.
Max Kringen (30:26):
And so how did it make them feel?
Elle Billing (30:28):
Sometimes helpless, frustrated. Sometimes
they lacked confidence, lackmotivation]
Max Kringen (30:32):
they felt behind Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The
philosophical challenge is, it'sjust plain wrong, that they feel
like that, because in this case,Ms Billing is here to teach you
how to read. Right? And so, so,really identifying,
Elle Billing (30:52):
and sorry, and philosophically, there's nothing
inherently wrong with them. Andwe don't need to like base base
our judgments of kids on theiracademic proficiency. Like, I
just gotta jump in. I just gottajump
Max Kringen (31:04):
Amen.
Elle Billing (31:07):
Sorry,
Max Kringen (31:08):
very true. Very true. And then really, we go
into
Elle Billing (31:13):
You can tell why I burned out.
Max Kringen (31:17):
Well, I mean, I
Elle Billing (31:18):
Lots of late nights philosophizing.
Max Kringen (31:20):
That's a really good point, though. And it's not
really one that we run into inthe work that we do. Right? Like
we, as we try to take a bigstory and boil it down. I used
to, like use the analogy oflike, take Coca Cola and get rid
of all the water, what are youleft with: just the syrupy
goodness. Which also like thesyrup of Coca Cola? I can't
(31:42):
imagine actually is good at all.
Anyway,
Elle Billing (31:45):
I used to change.
I used to change out the syrupon the pop machines at work. And
it's like,
Max Kringen (31:52):
at the DQ?
Elle Billing (31:53):
Yeah. at the DQ
Max Kringen (31:55):
Yeah. But when you do that part of what our
response is not ourresponsibility, but part of what
we have to do in that is we haveto boil the story down in a way
that ignites new conversation,right? The what we're trying to
do is we're trying to be stepone of inviting somebody into a
(32:17):
story. And so so a lot of timeslike, like, even what you just
said about like, there's nothinginherently wrong. And we
shouldn't be passing judgment onchildren because of their lack
of ability to read. right? and100% Agree,
Elle Billing (32:34):
when I went to grad school, like the entire
thrust of my master's programwas we shouldn't be using a
deficit model. And the way weapproach bilingual deaf
education and teaching kids toread, like, we need to base it
on their strengths.
Max Kringen (32:48):
Yes, absolutely.
And part of the challenge thatwe sometimes run into is we
don't get to go as deep in thestory as we want to. So
Elle Billing (32:58):
because marketing doesn't, you don't have that
much time.
Max Kringen (33:01):
Time and you're getting what five? I think the
the latest statistic is theaverage person gets gets
inundated with 5000 marketingmessages on a daily basis. You
know, like, even as we're inthis call right now, in this
like, safe space, like there area dozen logos in front of me at
different times. Right?
Elle Billing (33:22):
Yeah, like if I look at my computer right now,
there's the one for Zencaster.
There's Google. There's GoogleChrome. There's the one for
Windows.
Max Kringen (33:32):
All those are messages to
Elle Billing (33:33):
Intel. Yeah. Yep.
Whatever my water bottle is.
It's not a Stanley Cup. Thatconversation on another episode.
Is is a cheap TJ Maxx knockoff.
Max Kringen (33:42):
Mine is a ball mason jar. So yeah, how rustic?
Oh, rustic. But But yeah, so. Sostory is really, story is the
way that we, we remember thingstoo. There's a god, I should
really remember what the actualstudy is. But the average person
(34:05):
won't remember stats, but theycan remember stories and they
can remember how they felt. Andpart of the way that we do that
is through a tool calledNarrative transportation.
Narrative transportation verysimply is like, how do you get
people to visualize themselvesin that setting? So what's funny
is, as we talked about-- if wewant to bring it all the way
(34:25):
back to that story about withKatie --is I was transported
back to where I was, like, thevehicle I was in the street.
Elle Billing (34:40):
Forty- second street. probably driving past
target.
Max Kringen (34:42):
Yes, yes.Target on 42nd Street. I was in my little
like, Grand Prix. I can see likethe red letters on the
Elle Billing (34:54):
I had a Grand Prix, like I know exactly what
the dash looks like.
Max Kringen (34:59):
And I remember Remember, it was like early
winter. So like what you'redoing right there because you
can visualize yourself in thisexact setting right now. by
doing that you are going tobetter remember my, my story
about Katie, right? And it'sprobably why it stuck in the
first place. In addition to youknow,
Elle Billing (35:21):
it's my sister and I know how she talks. And she
often makes the joke that like,the reason mom thought she was
gay in high school and had noidea that I was queer was
because my sister was the onestanding in front of the closet
door protecting it until I wasready to come out.
Max Kringen (35:38):
She's good people.
Elle Billing (35:38):
She's great people.
Max Kringen (35:40):
So that's why I love story.
Elle Billing (35:43):
Yeah, it's good.
Well, I have one question left.
And so when I usually ask first,but I saved it to the end,
because we just hopped right inthere. How have you received
care this week?
Max Kringen (35:55):
Huh? That is a really good question. I. And,
you know, I was thinking aboutthat. And I was struggling with
it as as I read it. Because as agood Midwesterner, we don't
focus on, on care of ourselves,we focus on care of others. You
know, I think one thing that Ihave done this week, as we came
(36:18):
off of a holiday weekend,oftentimes I would play the role
of family therapist a littlebit.
I have a brother and a sister inlaw and nieces and nephews and
my parents, and I made thepurposeful decision as we were
going into that brunch time,like, Take three breaths. You
(36:43):
don't need to fix anybody. Inthis time. You don't need to
justify to anybody else. And youdon't need to interpret
anybody's conversation for eachother. Because I know that's one
like pattern that I get intoquite a bit is I'm like, Well,
maybe they didn't mean this,here's what they were actually
saying. But they just don't havethe words for it. And I
Elle Billing (37:02):
you're the family translator.
Max Kringen (37:04):
Yeah. And I, I spent a lot of time and energy
in that space. And, and it's onethat I oftentimes don't mind
being in because like, it'ssomething that I'm not bad at
doing. And I've done a lot ofwork for, for my work here at
Tellwell. And leading a team of15 is like, you have to figure
out how lots of different peopletalking and try to translate
(37:26):
back and forth with what thatis. But what I realized was I
was taking my work home. Andrather than playing that role,
to just like, pause, and say,You know what, literally,
everybody here is a grown adult,and they have the ability to do
it themselves. And so that's howI show my self care.
Elle Billing (37:50):
That is fabulous.
I love that for you.
Max Kringen (37:54):
Thanks.
Elle Billing (37:56):
That can be really hard to do when it's the thing
we've done our whole lives.
Max Kringen (38:00):
It really is. Yeah.
And I think one thing that I'vealways found fascinating, is,
I've been told many a time thatI get away with stuff that
nobody else does. Whether that'slike, what I -- like the
conversations that I can havewith people. My father says that
to me all the time about mymother, like, I could never say
(38:21):
that to your mother.
Elle Billing (38:25):
Yeah, just I can just see Jon saying that. and it
being true.
Max Kringen (38:32):
But here's, here's where I think it comes from, is
I've never been really afraid ofsharing. I'm gonna say truths.
But maybe more objective truthsthan subjective. Right? Like,
like, if you want to have anopinion about something, you can
have an opinion about something,but I encourage you and
(38:53):
challenge you to back it up. Andif you can't, then then I just
don't have as much respect foryou. It's funny, because with my
parents living in Fargo, now, Iget to have dinner with them,
probably two or three nights aweek. And that's so fun. And
what's also interesting is justhow different our minds were.
(39:17):
And like our different livedexperiences, and I don't know if
you watched the LSU-Iowa gamejust last night a couple nights
ago.
Elle Billing (39:29):
Dad and I watched part of it. Yeah.
Max Kringen (39:30):
Okay. was really interesting. Taking some of the
commentary that they were kindof resharing that they had read
on Twitter that they had heardon SportsCenter or some of those
different things, and, andreally challenging them to say
like, actually, what you'resharing back is kind of implicit
(39:54):
bias or it's like, you know,it's what is the word for where
it's like, racism, kind of likemicroaggressions
Elle Billing (40:04):
Oh, yes.
Max Kringen (40:05):
And, and my, my mom was so funny because she's just
like, she's just like, No, no,that's not that's not true. And
I was like, but it is like ifyou look at this Iowa team, this
much whiter team, you wouldn'tsay the same things about them?
(40:25):
Well, they, they're nice. And Iwas like, Ah, okay, cool. Let's
unpack that a little bit. Andwhat what I do appreciate about
my parents, and my relationshipwith them in the relationship
that we've built, is that theyalways come around to it. So I
love that about them because mymom was like, shut up. I know,
(40:46):
you're right. Okay, fine, we canmove on. I have learned that I
might be a little racist, and Iwill work on it.
Elle Billing (40:53):
Yeah, that is one of the things about having, I
think adult relationships withour parents. Because they're in
proximity. I've been able tohave a lot of that too. I make
commentary on the TV a lot. Andsometimes my parents are like,
can we just watched the show,okay. That's not how I watch TV.
But okay. I will take notes andget back to you after. I take
(41:18):
you to school. I'm gonna takeyou to school when this is done.
Max Kringen (41:22):
I love it.
Elle Billing (41:23):
Well, thanks for being here. I really appreciate
the time you took. It's great tohave you on the podcast, Max.
Max Kringen (41:28):
Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for not just
inviting me on. But thanks forthe work that you're doing in
this podcast. I think these arereally important conversations.
And I think more than that, theyare creating that space, to
share story. And when we createthat space, to share story,
really beautiful things canhappen and really beautiful
(41:50):
things can change. So thanks formaking space for those stories.
Elle Billing (41:53):
Well, thank you.
And thank you for doing the samewith pride stories.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of Hoorf. To view the
complete show notes and all thelinks mentioned in today's
episode, or to get a fulltranscript of the episode, visit
Hoorf podcast.com that's H O O RF podcast.com. Before you go,
(42:15):
make sure you subscribe to thepodcast so you can receive new
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(42:37):
month you can support thecreation of this podcast, pay my
editor and join a community offellow caregivers out here just
doing our best. Thank you againfor joining me Elle Billing in
this episode of Hoorf. Untilnext time, be excellent to each
other.
(43:09):
Hoorf is hosted by Elle Billing@elleandwink. audio editing by
Ricki Cummings @rickiep00h musiccomposed by Ricki Cummings.
Hoorf is a production of Elle &Wink Art Studio, all rights
reserved.
Hoorf podcast can be found onsocial media channels
@hoorfpodcast at H O O R Fpodcast.
Hi, my name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:02):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode and everyepisode to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care and
compassionate and sustainableways, and harness creative
expression to heal ourselves and
our worl (00:16):
Radical care in a late capitalist heckscape.
(00:46):
My guest today is Max Kringen.
Max Kringen is the founder andowner of Tellwell Story Co., the
creative studio that specializesin branding, design and web
services. Over the past decade,Max has led the company from its
inception to a successful andrespected firm working with a
diverse range of clients fromsmall nonprofits to Fortune 100
companies across the country.
(01:07):
His entrepreneurial spirit andpassion for storytelling have
been the driving force behindTellwell's growth and success.
Max's approach to business ischaracterized by a deep
commitment to his team andclients, valuing relationships
and the power of storytelling increating impactful and
meaningful connections. Underhis leadership, Tellwell has
become known for its storyfocused, empowering and service
(01:28):
oriented approach, prioritizingcontent first consistency, user
centric design, and integratedcreativity. Max's vision for
Tellwell is not just aboutbusiness success, but also about
making a positive difference inthe world through the art of
storytelling. I'm excited tohave Max on the podcast today.
Welcome.
(01:48):
Hi, Max. Welcome to Hoorf.
Max Kringen (01:49):
Hi, Elle. Thanks for having me.
Elle Billing (01:52):
I'm so excited to see you. It's great to have you
here. I recorded on your podcastlast week. And then I said, Hey,
you want to be on my podcast?
And you said, Heck yeah. That'sbasically how the conversation
went. So we have now seen eachother twice in two weeks after
not seeing each other for almost20 years. So life is good.
Life.
Max Kringen (02:10):
Life is really good. It is so fun to like, see
you, catch up a little bit. It'sactually been really fun to
almost catch up with you throughyour podcast, because I would
say, like, I've learned so-- itfeels like-- I've learned so
much about your life over thelast 20 years, just by the work
that you've been doing on yourpodcast.
Elle Billing (02:31):
Oh, well, thank you. It's, it's certainly been,
like a lot has happened in 20years. So we went to high school
together. We w were in differentyears. But we we have known each
other since elementary school,essentially.
Max Kringen (02:43):
Yep.
Elle Billing (02:44):
Went to the same school. I graduated, and my
sister graduated and yougraduated. And then I just
disappeared.
Max Kringen (02:51):
You really did.
Elle Billing (02:52):
Yeah. And like the last time you saw me, I was
either probably engaged to oralmost married to my high school
sweetheart. And things are verydifferent now.
Max Kringen (03:03):
Very, very different now
Elle Billing (03:04):
very different now.
Max Kringen (03:05):
And that's what I kind of love about this story of
even how we came back together.
Because I think we will talkabout it at some point. But the
podcasts that you came on wasone that we create here at
Tellwell, which is PrideStories, which is sharing
stories of LGBTQIA-plus peoples,and I was like so surprised and
(03:26):
so delighted when I saw aDanielle "Elle" Billing and I
was like, wait, I --
Elle Billing (03:38):
I know them
Max Kringen (03:40):
I know them! Okay, let me like read through this
real quick. I was like, ah, oh,oh, this is gonna be so fun. And
so that was that was a reallyfun moment. But but we never got
to connect through our, ourqueer journeys. Really?
Unknown (03:57):
No,
Elle Billing (03:57):
No, not at all. I mean, you can tell the story on
my podcast that you told onyours, too. When we get a little
bit further down -- or rightnow! -- about my sister. I
actually talked to her aboutthat on the phone today.
Max Kringen (04:07):
Did she remember it?
Elle Billing (04:09):
Kind of?
Max Kringen (04:09):
Or did she just have so many coming out
conversations with all of herfriends. She didn't know
Elle Billing (04:14):
we have so many queer friends. She and I have
fielded many of thoseconversations. Hm, I wonder why?
Max Kringen (04:24):
Comfortability.
Yeah, you're you're you're verywelcoming, though. And your
sister has always been verywelcoming.
Elle Billing (04:30):
She's, She said too, I just was standing in
front of so many closets,waiting, just protecting people.
Like at some point, you have toopen the door and say, Can
somebody come out? I'm justthere's just too many to keep
track. That's what she saidtoday. Like when we were on the
phone. She's like, is thatreally this? Just like is that
really the story Max tellspeople?
Max Kringen (04:51):
Honestly, I think that was maybe the first time
that I've told that story like ii would say, Katie and my
circles don't really like--there. What's the over--
diagram?
Elle Billing (05:02):
don't overlap like a Venn diagram.
Max Kringen (05:04):
they don't overlap a ton anymore? Like they
definitely used to. But, youknow, in the 20 years that we've
been out of school, now, not somuch.
Elle Billing (05:13):
I guess you have to tell the story. Now we've
like teased it. We can get tothe questions in a minute.
Max Kringen (05:18):
Yeah, I feel like if I don't get it perfect, now,
you're gonna be like, wasn'tfactually accurate, but
Elle Billing (05:23):
I wasn't there.
Max Kringen (05:25):
So I remember like I was, I was driving home, and I
had Katie on the phone. And wewere talking about, like, a
relationship thing. I've beentalking about a girl thing. And,
and I finally just, like, cameout, and I was like, and I'm
gay. And she's like, Well, yeah,duh. And, but not in like a
(05:47):
minimizing way. But just like,I'm very, very ready for you to
come out. And that is going tobutcher the story. I should
just, like, grab that sectionand like, bring it back. Because
now I'm trying desperately toremember it. And --
Elle Billing (06:00):
you had said that you were talking about girl
stuff. And then she was like,Max, honey. You know, you're
gay. Right?
Max Kringen (06:08):
Yeah,
Elle Billing (06:08):
like in a very in a very Katie-like loving but
very factual like. We need totalk about this, like, because
the reason you're having girlproblems, that's a very Katie
thing.
Max Kringen (06:19):
Like, what's funny is I remember, like the where I
was. Because I was on like, a42nd Street in Fargo.
Elle Billing (06:28):
Oh, yeah,
Max Kringen (06:28):
like driving my my car that I had in college, which
was like, a Pontiac Grand Prix.
And it was silver. And Iremember this, like, I don't
know why, like I can remember,like, all of the things around
it. But like the actualconversation seems--What just
happened? There was just a noisein the bathroom. And I was like,
(06:49):
what? Nan has coming through thedoor. She misses me.
Elle Billing (06:55):
She probably does.
I don't know. I mean, whywouldn't she?
Max Kringen (06:59):
Why wouldn't she?
Absolutely.
Elle Billing (07:00):
After we recorded your podcast, I told my dad
about it. And he was like, oh,yeah, Max used to come over all
the time. He was always so muchfun.
Max Kringen (07:08):
Oh, that's so sweet.
Elle Billing (07:09):
Yeah,
Max Kringen (07:09):
that's so sweet.
Elle Billing (07:10):
And then he asked about your parents? And he's
like, Oh, I should catch up withthem.
Max Kringen (07:14):
Yeah, but isn't that the Midwest thing to do is
like, how are you? How are yourparents?
Elle Billing (07:18):
How are your parents?
Max Kringen (07:21):
And it's just like, Oh, they're, they're the same as
they always have been. It wasvery sweet. We actually just got
off the phone with with Jon. AndI got a call from like, the
Department of Health for theState of North Dakota. And she's
like, Hi. So we're doing thisprogram, um, you had applied for
(07:43):
this program. It was likeanother benefit that we can
offer here at Tellwell. We hadapplied for this program. And
but Jon was like the the person,like the contact person, because
he's our Controller here atTellwell, after he retired. And
she's like, Yeah, he hung up,and well, he said, Please take
(08:03):
me off your list. This is spam.
And take me off your list andnever call again. And I was
like, oh my god, I'm so sorry.
And she's like, it's fine. Ifeel like my dad would have done
the same thing. And I was like,Oh, so that's how John is?
Elle Billing (08:18):
Yeah, yeah. I live with my parents, right. And I
screen calls for them a lot. AndI am. I think I'm the Jon in
that scenario. When people askfor my parents, I'm like, Are
you scamming seniors for money?
Because that I will not abidethat. Like, because there have
been times where, yes, they arescammers, and they are being
(08:38):
really terrible. And I'm like,Excuse me, excuse me. Like, do
you enjoy your life? Like, areyou happy with your life right
now? Do you really like callingpeople and threatening them?
Like, are you okay with this?
This guy's like, Honey, Honey,get a hold of yourself. And I'm
(08:58):
like, Did you just call mehoney?
Max Kringen (09:00):
Oh, hell know.
Elle Billing (09:01):
He's like we were told that that helps calm people
down. I was like, No, it fillsme with rage when strange men
call me honey.
Max Kringen (09:10):
Whoever gave you that information was was very
mistaken. You know, that makesthose tick tock videos make a
whole lot more sense. Like whenthey catch the scammers and then
they like zoom in on them, and Idon't know how they have access
to their cameras anyway. Doesn'tmatter anyway so so
Elle Billing (09:26):
so anyway, that's that's how life is. It's what
happens when you put two speechkids in front of a microphone
Max Kringen (09:35):
so I know we had mentioned like it talking about
speech a little bit and I justhad this like, wild -- it feels
wild to me that I'm gonna go anddo it because I've said no for
so many years.
Elle Billing (09:49):
Are you judging this weekend?
Max Kringen (09:50):
I'm -- are you judging?!
Elle Billing (09:53):
Yeah, I've been judging, judging all season.
Max Kringen (09:56):
Oh my god. So I'm going to judge regional speech.
Elle Billing (10:01):
Okay, so we'll get to catch up. We don't have to
like, worry about gettingcoffee. We could just go eat
doughnuts in the judges lounge
Max Kringen (10:07):
God, not good doughnuts, like really not, like
stale doughnuts.
Elle Billing (10:12):
They might be good. It might be Sandy's.
Max Kringen (10:15):
I was gonna say when I first started judging
speech like, well, it would havebeen right after I graduated. So
like 15, 17 years ago,
Elle Billing (10:24):
but one of the tournament managers is our old
coach.
Max Kringen (10:28):
Yes, yes. Anyway, I'm very excited. And okay,
well, there we go.
Elle Billing (10:33):
So we were speech kids together. That's how we
know each other.
Max Kringen (10:35):
Yeah. Lots of time in the speech bus. Yeah.
Elle Billing (10:38):
So we reconnected for your podcast, as you
mentioned, which is PrideStories. And like you said,
during the process, we realized,like we hadn't ever shared our
coming out stories, which is whyyou were so excited to have me
on your podcast. And then, yeah,we talked a lot about the 90s
and early 2000s, in small town,North Dakota. And you know,
(10:59):
neither of us came out in highschool, I started to when I was
19, but like, didn't come out tothe rest of my family till I was
like, 31 and divorced. But youhave, I mean, Pride Stories is a
project of Tellwell, which isyour business? So can you share
a bit about like that podcast,but like, also your story? And
why Tellwell decided to do pridestories in our community?
Max Kringen (11:22):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (11:23):
And why that's important to you.
Max Kringen (11:24):
Yeah. So So Tell, Tellwell, has been, we've called
ourselves a story basedmarketing agency, almost since
the beginning. Way before, like,marketing agencies and creative
studios started talking aboutstory and sharing your story and
(11:44):
all that jazz. Like, I don'twant to say like, before it was
cool. But we've really beentalking about the power of story
to connect communities for along time. And I think one of
the things that happened was, aswe've as we've had different
people here at Tellwell, we'vehad kind of different, like,
ebbs and flows. And, you know, Iwould say, early on, we were
(12:09):
very afraid of like, some of ourmore conservative clients being
like, Oh, well, wait a second.
We don't want to work with thosehomos. And unfortunately, we are
in Fargo. And I shouldn't sayunfortunately, I love Fargo
Elle Billing (12:24):
there is at least the benefit that Fargo is a
slightly more liberal pocketthan the rest of the state.
Max Kringen (12:28):
Absolutely.
Elle Billing (12:29):
But it's still but it's still North Dakota,
Max Kringen (12:32):
Right. And a lot of the businesses, the folks that
we rely on to do work with a lotof those business leaders are
fairly conservative,
Elle Billing (12:40):
Like Doug Bergum
Max Kringen (12:42):
like Doug Bergum.
Elle Billing (12:43):
I mean, the governor -- like for people who
don't know who that is, thegovernor of the state of North
Dakota got his start as abusiness person in Fargo. And he
owns a lot of stuff in town.
Max Kringen (12:54):
And you know, really, Doug and Kilbourne Group
is how we started with video atTellwell which is now like, some
of the most amazing work that wedo and like, what's so
frustrating, side tangent,what's so frustrating to me
about,
Elle Billing (13:10):
sorry, I shouldn't like risk your client
relationships by calling out thegovernor.
Max Kringen (13:16):
They're not a client anymore. And that's okay.
But like, one thing that's sofrustrating is I remember when
there was a, there was an eventabout healthcare technology. And
at the time, I worked at a techstartup downtown Fargo. And so I
was sitting in the crowd. Andhe, on the stage in front of
(13:36):
everybody was like, you know,one of the reasons that we need
to be more open to gay marriageis because there's a whole
segment of the population ofreally talented people that
don't feel comfortable workinghere. And so we are missing out
on like the ability to make ourcommunity more rich, as well as
(13:57):
losing out on really significanttalent that could be coming to
our state and to our town. And Iwas like, YEAH DOUG! like, that
was so empowering. And I wasjust like, holy shit, like this
wildly successful person issaying this in front of a room
of conservative, like NorthDakotans, and Midwesterners, and
(14:20):
like good for you, and thank youfor doing that. And so it is
like a really, I have a reallyhard time with the chasm that
has happened between like, Doug,the the objective business
person who recognized like thevalue of our LGBTQIA plus like
brothers and sisters and othersto what it is today, which is
(14:43):
like a shell of of that, and Idon't mean this like
Elle Billing (14:50):
the compromises he had to make to stay, to get into
and to stay in office.
Max Kringen (14:54):
Yeah. And this might be naive of me, but I
really do believe that that,like, first person is still in
there, and I hope, I hopebecause of like, frankly, the
interactions that I've had withhis, with his staff and his
chief of staff is one of myfriends from college and, and I
know he doesn't have thosebeliefs. And so it's really hard
(15:15):
for me to like bridge that. Butyeah, as we kind of come back to
Pride Stories, we were reallystruggling for a while about
like, how do we, how do we carveout our identity and talk about
what we believe in, especiallywhen, you know, some of our
creatives were on the more, Iwould say, like religious side,
(15:36):
but like, not necessarilyspiritual, religious. And so I
struggled with that for a while.
And what's interesting, itwasn't until three years ago,
almost four years ago, my nowbusiness partner Duncan, shared
a video from the Trevor Project.
And the Trevor Project has thislike, basically coming out
stories. And it's a beautifulseries. And he's like, why don't
(15:57):
we do this. And Duncan, for forunderstanding, is straight. He's
married, he has a seven monthold baby, a beautiful baby boy.
And it just boggled my mind thatlike this straight Bro-y kind of
bro-y, guy is coming in andsaying, like, we should do this.
(16:19):
And so we started to dig into ita little bit more. And like,
then I finally got to meet like,some of the rest of his family.
And he started to share aboutlike that relationship. And you
know, he has a twin brother,they look identical. They're not
quite identical, because histwin brother is gay. He's
married to a lovely gentleman,and his sibling is queer. And so
like, he comes from this veryopen and welcoming family, which
(16:43):
was so great.
And we released those over thenext year. And the thing that I
(17:15):
realized, as they were comingout, was, while they were
incredible, and beautiful, andwe won all kinds of awards for
them, which was great. As muchas anything, they were
incredibly well received by thecommunity, and the community was
so excited about them. Andthat's really what told us like,
double down on that, like, tellpeople what you believe in. And
(17:36):
those folks that don't want toassociate with you, let them go
their own way. But there's goingto be a whole lot more people
that probably come your way,because you're being your more
authentic self.
Elle Billing (17:45):
Yes. Like, the people who don't want to do
business with you, becauseyou're making pride story
videos, you don't want theirbusiness anyway.
Max Kringen (17:53):
Exactly.
Elle Billing (17:54):
You don't want to have to tiptoe around them.
Max Kringen (17:56):
You know, it's challenging, because we were
working with a podcast editorpretty recently, and we were
going to move our podcast, theywere going to edit our Pride
Stories podcast. And we got thisvery strange message back that
was like, Hey, um, so we don'thave capacity anymore. Sorry.
We're like, Oh, okay. That'sweird. But then I saw them
(18:20):
advertising for like, forbusiness on their LinkedIn. So I
just reached out. And they'relike, actually, it just doesn't
align with my religious values.
My good Christian values of, andI was like, oh, okay, just say
that. Just say that then say thefirst time. Right? Don't Don't
lie about it. Because I feellike that is maybe you know,
explicitly written Yeah. Like,do not lie
Elle Billing (18:47):
do not lie
Max Kringen (18:47):
do not pass go. But beyond that, so pride stories,
the podcast actually came from abit of a realization it was one
of those like, midnightrealizations where you kind of
sit up and you're like,
Elle Billing (19:01):
I have those all the time
Max Kringen (19:04):
they're either the worst or the best, especially if
you can remember them the nextday
Elle Billing (19:07):
That's why I keep a notebook next to my bed
Max Kringen (19:09):
smart. I don't know what happened to it because
sometimes I like also keep likemy glass of water there and I
just like weighing and you knowthat then you're really up so.
But what I realized and this isthis is no criticism to the
original project, but like itwas a lot of cis white men and
(19:29):
women talking about their gaystories, their lesbian stories.
Elle Billing (19:33):
Yep.
Max Kringen (19:34):
And so there was very little actual
representation of who I lovinglyrefer to as the alphabet mafia.
Right. So So Pride Stories thepodcast is ,as much as anything,
a way to like, bring down theproduction time just a little
bit, to get as many more storiesas we can. So that's where pride
(19:58):
stories the podcast came from.
And, again, thank you for beingon it.
Elle Billing (20:03):
Yeah, you're welcome. I, you just you put out
a call with-- I don't even knowif it was on Instagram or your
personal Facebook or what?
Max Kringen (20:09):
Probably both?
Elle Billing (20:10):
Yeah, probably both. I was like, oh, I should
do that. And you know, havingalso having my own podcast too,
like one of the things that Ialso like about doing a podcast
versus some other form of mediais that you can reach other
people who you may not be ableto get to come into a studio.
You know, I have, I have afriend in Michigan who is
(20:30):
professor of social work, andthey are chronically ill,
they're immunocompromised now,they now have long COVID. And
they've been able to maintaintheir, their teaching duties,
because they can work remotely,they don't have to go into, into
the office anymore. And theisolation is really difficult
(20:51):
for them emotionally, butthey're also able to keep
themselves safe. Yeah, you know,and so being able to do remote
recording, like we're doingright now, opens up a level of
accessibility, that I think alot of people don't necessarily
think about, too.
Max Kringen (21:08):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (21:09):
And that was something we were that was
something we were talking aboutbefore we hit record too, is
that I'm, I'm trying to set upa, an appointment with a woman
who is blind. And the softwarethat I use-- that we're using
right now to record-- isn'taccessible to the accessibility
software that a lot of blindpeople use for accessing
computer software. None of thebuttons are labeled for screen
(21:29):
readers. And so we need to findan alternative for recording.
And I think that is reallyfrustrating.
Max Kringen (21:36):
It's frustrating, because there's ways-- not
terribly difficult ways-- to fixthose things. One of my
leadership coaches recently, shewas a designer on the original
Google Maps. And she'sincredible, just like a badass,
like design leader manager. AndI was sharing with her a little
(22:03):
bit of frustration because likewe had a client that was being
particularly difficult about --and Forgive me, because this was
like, frankly, before Iunderstood, how some of these
like screen readers worked, andand what that accessibility
looks like. But I was getting alittle bit frustrated because it
(22:23):
was compromising our design,right, compromising our color
palette.
I say that now dripping withsarcasm in a client was like we
were getting frustrated with aclient because they were doing
that. And what she said to mewas Max, when you design for
accessibility, everybody wins.
Elle Billing (22:44):
Yes.
Max Kringen (22:45):
Right. And it's not just the people who have, you
know, if you think about thebell curve, it's not just the
people on one or the other. Butlike, everybody actually wins
with that. And whether that beproper contrast, proper sizing,
alt tags on your photos, right?
Like there is a business benefitto having alt tags on your
(23:07):
photos, in addition toempowering people with visual
impairments to understand whatthe, what that page is, and like
what the purpose of it is, andthose types of things.
Elle Billing (23:20):
Yeah, it's good for your SEO
Max Kringen (23:21):
it's good for SEO, right? Like there's a business
case to also be accessible. Andit shouldn't just be when people
are being sued, that they'rethinking about accessibility and
making their stories accessibleto as wide of an audience as
they can
Elle Billing (23:37):
Right. You know, I worked at a school for the deaf
and blind and so accessib--. Wetalked about accessibility of
our stuff all the time, youknow, captions on videos, verbal
descriptions on videos, makingsure that our bulletin boards
had Braille descriptions of whatwas visually on the bulletin
board and things like that.
Interpreters available at allevents. And so accessibility was
just built into everything. ButI had a hard time starting out
(24:00):
with visual descriptions of myphotos, I just didn't know where
to start. I was like, how do youdescribe a photo? I don't know.
That's why I'm using Instagrambecause I'm a visual artist,
like,I don't know how --? So Ihired somebody for a while to do
my descriptions for me just toget over that hump, because I
just didn't know I was like,I'll hire somebody to do it.
(24:20):
Then I'll have like a bank ofdescriptions and that'll, like,
at least get my momentum going.
And it was another disabledperson that I hired to do it.
And I think the key there islike, Tellwell did pride
stories, the video series andpride stories, the podcast, and,
you know, you lead with yourheart and you lead with your
ethics because you're gay,Duncan has gay and queer family
(24:42):
members. And it's because thatsensibility is already built
into your company because youhave diverse members of your
business. And when you havepeople who are disabled, who
work in a business, or in aschool, or in a system,
accessibility is more at theforefront. Or that type of
(25:06):
diversity is already like partof the thinking of the
organization because the peoplewho are doing it are there. And
when you have a startup, one ofthe problems of startup culture
is, I mean, things that they raninto with like Lyft And Uber is
that there were no disabledpeople who worked for the
startup. And so theinaccessibility of people's
(25:28):
individual cars versus, youknow, taxis or municipal
transportation or things likethat. No one was thinking about,
well, what happens if there's awheelchair user who wants to use
Uber? Because, well, no onethinks about those things if
they don't have to.
Max Kringen (25:44):
So So break that down, like where that actually
like, gets to the foundation ofthat, is leading with empathy.
Right, and when you'veexperienced those types of
things, and those types of, youknow, whether you've been
discriminated against because ofability, or discriminated
(26:04):
against because of who you love,or discriminated against,
because of your gender. When youget to experience those,
suddenly, it doesn't matternecessarily what the other-ism
is.
Because you've experienced it inany way, in my case, like, I am
(26:25):
a I'm a cisgender, white man, Ican code switch like that,
right? Like I can get up infront of that group of
conservative North Dakotans andbe like, well, Hi, friends, my
name is Max. And I love tatertot hot dish, and like get the
crowd going here
Elle Billing (26:41):
tater tot hoddish is really good
Max Kringen (26:44):
friggin delicious.
But like, I have that ability todo it. And so I actually see it
as, as a, not just anopportunity, but like an
obligation to bring other folksalong with me. Right. And so I
think about my stories, thepodcast, even more specifically,
(27:05):
one of the things I've I'vereally struggled with, is trying
to share the stories of like ourtransgender brothers and
sisters. Because I would saylike, in a very similar way to
how maybe like a straight personcan't put themselves in the
place of a gay person to belike, I just don't understand
(27:27):
that you can be attracted todudes, or I just cannot
understand how you would beattracted to women. I was
struggling with that. And what Ifound so fascinating, is, you
know, I'm 10, 12 interviews intopride stories, the podcast, and
throughout that, I think I'vehad four or so folks that
identify as transgender, and Iget it now. Right, like, but but
(27:50):
it is through that opening of adialogue and saying, like, Hey,
let me invite you into thisconversation, invite you into
sharing your story. And I thinkthat there needs to be more of
that. In I don't know how weforce that upon people to like,
especially people that haven'tgotten to experience
(28:11):
discrimination in various ways,how we encourage them to invite
those conversations, but it'sreally important.
Elle Billing (28:19):
So what does it mean to you to tell a story
well?
Max Kringen (28:24):
as I think about telling the story, I actually
sometimes reframe it. And Ioftentimes talk about sharing a
story versus versus telling thestory.
Elle Billing (28:33):
Tell Well, sounds better as the brand name.
Max Kringen (28:36):
It does, it does.
Elle Billing (28:38):
It just rolls off the tongue, but no. Yeah. So
sharing your story well.
Max Kringen (28:41):
ShareWell, no, but but I love to share stories,
because stories have thisability to connect seemingly
disparate people. And one of thethings that you're always trying
to do with in story, if youthink about like almost any of
the major storytellingframeworks, one of the primary
ones that we use is the hero'sjourney, where, where you always
(29:05):
want to position yourself as theguide to let whoever you're
talking to be the hero, andyou're trying to help them get
to their heroic ending. And sowhat we love to do is we really
love to position nonprofits,small businesses, big
businesses, as the guide, sothat way, whoever they're
serving can be positioned as asthe hero. I think one of the
(29:29):
most interesting things abouthow to tell a story well, is
there are there kind of threemain things that you really have
to identify (29:38):
what is the problem? Right, and, and, and
we'd like to go a little bitdeeper. We like to talk about
like, what is the externalproblem? Like what is the overt
problem? What is the internalproblem? And then what's the
philosophical problem thathappens with it? And so if you
think about that, if we use theexample. We'll do this. We'll
(30:01):
just do this in real time. Ifyou think about one of your
students, what is the externalproblem of one of your students
who might be deaf?
Elle Billing (30:10):
They're behind in reading. I was-- the one that
that's the one that I ran intothe most often probably, at
least, or the parents wouldidentify immediately. They're
behind in reading,
Max Kringen (30:20):
they're behind in reading. The internal challenge
is, how does it make them feel?
Elle Billing (30:25):
Exactly. Yes.
Max Kringen (30:26):
And so how did it make them feel?
Elle Billing (30:28):
Sometimes helpless, frustrated. Sometimes
they lacked confidence, lackmotivation]
Max Kringen (30:32):
they felt behind Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The
philosophical challenge is, it'sjust plain wrong, that they feel
like that, because in this case,Ms Billing is here to teach you
how to read. Right? And so, so,really identifying,
Elle Billing (30:52):
and sorry, and philosophically, there's nothing
inherently wrong with them. Andwe don't need to like base base
our judgments of kids on theiracademic proficiency. Like, I
just gotta jump in. I just gottajump
Max Kringen (31:04):
Amen.
Elle Billing (31:07):
Sorry,
Max Kringen (31:08):
very true. Very true. And then really, we go
into
Elle Billing (31:13):
You can tell why I burned out.
Max Kringen (31:17):
Well, I mean, I
Elle Billing (31:18):
Lots of late nights philosophizing.
Max Kringen (31:20):
That's a really good point, though. And it's not
really one that we run into inthe work that we do. Right? Like
we, as we try to take a bigstory and boil it down. I used
to, like use the analogy oflike, take Coca Cola and get rid
of all the water, what are youleft with: just the syrupy
goodness. Which also like thesyrup of Coca Cola? I can't
(31:42):
imagine actually is good at all.
Anyway,
Elle Billing (31:45):
I used to change.
I used to change out the syrupon the pop machines at work. And
it's like,
Max Kringen (31:52):
at the DQ?
Elle Billing (31:53):
Yeah. at the DQ
Max Kringen (31:55):
Yeah. But when you do that part of what our
response is not ourresponsibility, but part of what
we have to do in that is we haveto boil the story down in a way
that ignites new conversation,right? The what we're trying to
do is we're trying to be stepone of inviting somebody into a
(32:17):
story. And so so a lot of timeslike, like, even what you just
said about like, there's nothinginherently wrong. And we
shouldn't be passing judgment onchildren because of their lack
of ability to read. right? and100% Agree,
Elle Billing (32:34):
when I went to grad school, like the entire
thrust of my master's programwas we shouldn't be using a
deficit model. And the way weapproach bilingual deaf
education and teaching kids toread, like, we need to base it
on their strengths.
Max Kringen (32:48):
Yes, absolutely.
And part of the challenge thatwe sometimes run into is we
don't get to go as deep in thestory as we want to. So
Elle Billing (32:58):
because marketing doesn't, you don't have that
much time.
Max Kringen (33:01):
Time and you're getting what five? I think the
the latest statistic is theaverage person gets gets
inundated with 5000 marketingmessages on a daily basis. You
know, like, even as we're inthis call right now, in this
like, safe space, like there area dozen logos in front of me at
different times. Right?
Elle Billing (33:22):
Yeah, like if I look at my computer right now,
there's the one for Zencaster.
There's Google. There's GoogleChrome. There's the one for
Windows.
Max Kringen (33:32):
All those are messages to
Elle Billing (33:33):
Intel. Yeah. Yep.
Whatever my water bottle is.
It's not a Stanley Cup. Thatconversation on another episode.
Is is a cheap TJ Maxx knockoff.
Max Kringen (33:42):
Mine is a ball mason jar. So yeah, how rustic?
Oh, rustic. But But yeah, so. Sostory is really, story is the
way that we, we remember thingstoo. There's a god, I should
really remember what the actualstudy is. But the average person
(34:05):
won't remember stats, but theycan remember stories and they
can remember how they felt. Andpart of the way that we do that
is through a tool calledNarrative transportation.
Narrative transportation verysimply is like, how do you get
people to visualize themselvesin that setting? So what's funny
is, as we talked about-- if wewant to bring it all the way
(34:25):
back to that story about withKatie --is I was transported
back to where I was, like, thevehicle I was in the street.
Elle Billing (34:40):
Forty- second street. probably driving past
target.
Max Kringen (34:42):
Yes, yes.Target on 42nd Street. I was in my little
like, Grand Prix. I can see likethe red letters on the
Elle Billing (34:54):
I had a Grand Prix, like I know exactly what
the dash looks like.
Max Kringen (34:59):
And I remember Remember, it was like early
winter. So like what you'redoing right there because you
can visualize yourself in thisexact setting right now. by
doing that you are going tobetter remember my, my story
about Katie, right? And it'sprobably why it stuck in the
first place. In addition to youknow,
Elle Billing (35:21):
it's my sister and I know how she talks. And she
often makes the joke that like,the reason mom thought she was
gay in high school and had noidea that I was queer was
because my sister was the onestanding in front of the closet
door protecting it until I wasready to come out.
Max Kringen (35:38):
She's good people.
Elle Billing (35:38):
She's great people.
Max Kringen (35:40):
So that's why I love story.
Elle Billing (35:43):
Yeah, it's good.
Well, I have one question left.
And so when I usually ask first,but I saved it to the end,
because we just hopped right inthere. How have you received
care this week?
Max Kringen (35:55):
Huh? That is a really good question. I. And,
you know, I was thinking aboutthat. And I was struggling with
it as as I read it. Because as agood Midwesterner, we don't
focus on, on care of ourselves,we focus on care of others. You
know, I think one thing that Ihave done this week, as we came
(36:18):
off of a holiday weekend,oftentimes I would play the role
of family therapist a littlebit.
I have a brother and a sister inlaw and nieces and nephews and
my parents, and I made thepurposeful decision as we were
going into that brunch time,like, Take three breaths. You
(36:43):
don't need to fix anybody. Inthis time. You don't need to
justify to anybody else. And youdon't need to interpret
anybody's conversation for eachother. Because I know that's one
like pattern that I get intoquite a bit is I'm like, Well,
maybe they didn't mean this,here's what they were actually
saying. But they just don't havethe words for it. And I
Elle Billing (37:02):
you're the family translator.
Max Kringen (37:04):
Yeah. And I, I spent a lot of time and energy
in that space. And, and it's onethat I oftentimes don't mind
being in because like, it'ssomething that I'm not bad at
doing. And I've done a lot ofwork for, for my work here at
Tellwell. And leading a team of15 is like, you have to figure
out how lots of different peopletalking and try to translate
(37:26):
back and forth with what thatis. But what I realized was I
was taking my work home. Andrather than playing that role,
to just like, pause, and say,You know what, literally,
everybody here is a grown adult,and they have the ability to do
it themselves. And so that's howI show my self care.
Elle Billing (37:50):
That is fabulous.
I love that for you.
Max Kringen (37:54):
Thanks.
Elle Billing (37:56):
That can be really hard to do when it's the thing
we've done our whole lives.
Max Kringen (38:00):
It really is. Yeah.
And I think one thing that I'vealways found fascinating, is,
I've been told many a time thatI get away with stuff that
nobody else does. Whether that'slike, what I -- like the
conversations that I can havewith people. My father says that
to me all the time about mymother, like, I could never say
(38:21):
that to your mother.
Elle Billing (38:25):
Yeah, just I can just see Jon saying that. and it
being true.
Max Kringen (38:32):
But here's, here's where I think it comes from, is
I've never been really afraid ofsharing. I'm gonna say truths.
But maybe more objective truthsthan subjective. Right? Like,
like, if you want to have anopinion about something, you can
have an opinion about something,but I encourage you and
(38:53):
challenge you to back it up. Andif you can't, then then I just
don't have as much respect foryou. It's funny, because with my
parents living in Fargo, now, Iget to have dinner with them,
probably two or three nights aweek. And that's so fun. And
what's also interesting is justhow different our minds were.
(39:17):
And like our different livedexperiences, and I don't know if
you watched the LSU-Iowa gamejust last night a couple nights
ago.
Elle Billing (39:29):
Dad and I watched part of it. Yeah.
Max Kringen (39:30):
Okay. was really interesting. Taking some of the
commentary that they were kindof resharing that they had read
on Twitter that they had heardon SportsCenter or some of those
different things, and, andreally challenging them to say
like, actually, what you'resharing back is kind of implicit
(39:54):
bias or it's like, you know,it's what is the word for where
it's like, racism, kind of likemicroaggressions
Elle Billing (40:04):
Oh, yes.
Max Kringen (40:05):
And, and my, my mom was so funny because she's just
like, she's just like, No, no,that's not that's not true. And
I was like, but it is like ifyou look at this Iowa team, this
much whiter team, you wouldn'tsay the same things about them?
(40:25):
Well, they, they're nice. And Iwas like, Ah, okay, cool. Let's
unpack that a little bit. Andwhat what I do appreciate about
my parents, and my relationshipwith them in the relationship
that we've built, is that theyalways come around to it. So I
love that about them because mymom was like, shut up. I know,
(40:46):
you're right. Okay, fine, we canmove on. I have learned that I
might be a little racist, and Iwill work on it.
Elle Billing (40:53):
Yeah, that is one of the things about having, I
think adult relationships withour parents. Because they're in
proximity. I've been able tohave a lot of that too. I make
commentary on the TV a lot. Andsometimes my parents are like,
can we just watched the show,okay. That's not how I watch TV.
But okay. I will take notes andget back to you after. I take
(41:18):
you to school. I'm gonna takeyou to school when this is done.
Max Kringen (41:22):
I love it.
Elle Billing (41:23):
Well, thanks for being here. I really appreciate
the time you took. It's great tohave you on the podcast, Max.
Max Kringen (41:28):
Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for not just
inviting me on. But thanks forthe work that you're doing in
this podcast. I think these arereally important conversations.
And I think more than that, theyare creating that space, to
share story. And when we createthat space, to share story,
really beautiful things canhappen and really beautiful
(41:50):
things can change. So thanks formaking space for those stories.
Elle Billing (41:53):
Well, thank you.
And thank you for doing the samewith pride stories.
Thank you for joining us on thisepisode of Hoorf. To view the
complete show notes and all thelinks mentioned in today's
episode, or to get a fulltranscript of the episode, visit
Hoorf podcast.com that's H O O RF podcast.com. Before you go,
(42:15):
make sure you subscribe to thepodcast so you can receive new
episodes right when they'rereleased. And if you're enjoying
our podcast, I'd love to haveyou leave us a review in Apple
podcasts. Reviews are one of themajor ways that Apple ranks
their podcasts. So even thoughit only takes you a few seconds,
it really does make a differencefor us. Become a patron for $3 a
(42:37):
month you can support thecreation of this podcast, pay my
editor and join a community offellow caregivers out here just
doing our best. Thank you againfor joining me Elle Billing in
this episode of Hoorf. Untilnext time, be excellent to each
other.
(43:09):
Hoorf is hosted by Elle Billing@elleandwink. audio editing by
Ricki Cummings @rickiep00h musiccomposed by Ricki Cummings.
Hoorf is a production of Elle &Wink Art Studio, all rights
reserved.
Hoorf podcast can be found onsocial media channels
@hoorfpodcast at H O O R Fpodcast.
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