October 14, 2024 • 41 mins
Content note: discussions of homophobia, sexual violence, military service
Guess who's back and ready to dive into the beautiful mess of life and art? It's your favorite chronically ill queer femme, Elle Billing, kicking off Season 3 of Hoorf! Podcast. This time, they're chatting with Charlie Reynolds, a conceptual artist and MFA candidate at the University of Michigan. Charlie, a recipient of the 2024 Midwest Award for Artists with Disabilities, creates art that tackles the heavy stuff - war, gender, and disability - using materials that hold personal meaning. Charlie also opens up about his journey as a veteran, navigating the choppy waters of PTSD and how his experience in the Navy is the one muse that just won’t let him go.
Links to Charlie’s work, as well as all other resource links, are in the full show notes at hoorfpodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elle Billing (00:00):
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode, and everyepisode, to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
radical care in the late capitalist heckscape.
(01:00):
My guest for this episode isCharlie Reynolds. Charlie
Reynolds is a conceptual artistwho explores themes of war,
gender and disability usingfibers, installations and
sculpture. He seeks to inviteviewers to investigate the
limitations of the body and theeuphoria of breaking free from
it. His art and developingpractices reflect the struggle
(01:20):
to reconcile his identity andhis abilities. Charlie draws
inspiration from the traditionof arte povera, incorporating
meaningful or sentimentalmaterials into projects, giving
them a new purpose and life,while also considering an
object's history. Charlie is anMFA candidate at the University
of Michigan, where he hopes toexpand his practice with a
specific interest in weaving,hand-dyeing and quilting. He's
(01:42):
exploring the history oftransgender rights and medicine
through his art, with aparticular interest in the
current anti trans laws in theUnited States. Having fled such
laws in Tennessee, he is readyto use this time to fight.
Charlie is one of the ninerecipients of the 2024 Midwest
Award for Artists withDisabilities, and I am really,
really excited to talk to himabout his art practice today on
(02:03):
the podcast. Welcome to theshow. Hello, Charlie. Welcome to
Hoorf.
Charlie Reynolds (02:10):
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Elle Billing (02:12):
Yeah, thanks for being here. I'm really excited
to have you on the podcast. Youare my first interview of season
three. I'm so excited.
Charlie Reynolds (02:21):
Thanks so much.
Elle Billing (02:22):
Yeah, so for those who don't know, which would be
everybody, because this is thefirst episode of the season,
Charlie and I were both winnersof the 2024 Midwest Award for
Artists with Disabilities, whichwas announced this summer. And
like that was like, I don'tknow, I don't know about you,
(02:42):
but like that was a huge honorfor me. It was a pretty big deal
in my life, and so I wanted tointerview other recipients of
the award about their artpractice and about their lives,
and I was really happy thatCharlie replied almost
immediately to my email, which Ialways like as a podcast host,
(03:05):
is getting replies to my emails.
So I'm excited to have you heretoday.
Charlie Reynolds (03:11):
Yeah. I mean, I was very surprised to first of
all get the award, and then toget your email. I was excited to
talk to the other awardees. It'sactually really funny when I got
the email that I got the awardthe very next day, I got an
email saying I didn't get it.
Elle Billing (03:29):
So did I!
Charlie Reynolds (03:30):
You did too?
Elle Billing (03:31):
Yeah, I think we all did.
Charlie Reynolds (03:33):
And so I had a panic attack, like, for like an
hour, and so I was on the phonewith them, like, hello. What's
going on? Like, thinking like,oh, how could they do this to
me, making me think I didn't getit. And then as they got on the
phone with me, I got that thirdemail saying, Oh, we're so
(03:53):
sorry. We made a mistake. Youdefinitely did get it. And the
guy was on the phone was like,we're so sorry for any, any
heartache that we caused, but itwas just a mistake email. But I
was just like, you can't do thisto me. I have PTSD, I have, I
(04:16):
have seizures, I have, I haveproblems, like, I have a panic
disorder,
Elle Billing (04:21):
right? I i also have anxiety and but I'm, I'm so
busy with taking care of my-- Ididn't even have time to worry
about it, like, so, like, I gotthe-- I read the correction
email before I read the onewhere they said I didn't get it.
And so, like, I read them out oforder. And I was like, Oh, well,
that would have upset me.
Charlie Reynolds (04:44):
No, I screenshot it. I send it to
group chats. And I was like, youguys, like, I had already
celebrated and everything.
Elle Billing (04:52):
Oh, yeah, like I had told my parents. I was like,
I can't talk about this anywhereelse. Oh, and then I told my
sister, because she and I bothhave the habit of like, well, we
know this about each other. Wecan't hold on to surprises.
Like, we'll buy each other agift and then immediately be
like, I bought you the coolestthing. So, yeah, when I read the
(05:13):
second email that was like,sorry about the email that we
sent that said you didn't getthe award. You really did get
it. And I was like, oh, therewas drama. I'm glad I missed
that.
Charlie Reynolds (05:24):
I lived the full experience.
Elle Billing (05:26):
I'm sorry you had to take that one for the team.
I'm sure that stressed outeverybody who actually got it in
real time, because, I mean, it'salso a grant, and so like
disabled people, as we know andlive, are underemployed very
often. And most grants that weapply for are there's
restrictions attached to them,like, you have to spend them in
(05:48):
certain ways. And this one isjust like, here we love you,
have some money, and it's veryexciting. And then so, like,
because, like, I'm sure you wereimmediately making plans,
Charlie Reynolds (05:59):
oh, oh, absolutely.
Elle Billing (06:01):
And then the next day to be like, none of them
plans can happen.
Charlie Reynolds (06:04):
Oh yeah. And I had immediately like, oh, well,
Serves you right for thinkingthat you were gonna buy all
those uniforms and all thatfabric with that money. Serves
you right. Charlie,
Elle Billing (06:15):
yeah, nope. I totally understand the thought
process.
Charlie Reynolds (06:18):
And then it was just like, Oh, just kidding,
and I'm like, playing with myemotions.
Elle Billing (06:23):
Oh yeah. I mean, it's I like, I know how it
happens, though, because the wayemail management systems work,
like Flodesk or ConvertKit, orany of those, like list
organizers, if they hadforgotten to take us out of the
list before they sent the massemail that said, thank you for
applying. That's probably whathappened. And then like, oh
(06:45):
shoot, we forgot to take ninepeople off that-- nine very
specific people off that list.
Charlie Reynolds (06:53):
They're like, hurry, hurry, hurry. But at that
point, I was like, until I'm ontheir website, I don't believe
it.
Elle Billing (07:00):
That's yeah, I understand. So now that we've
talked about all of the thingsthat can screw up our week, I
would like to know, how have youreceived care, my question that
I ask everybody, and I lovegetting the answers to it, how
have you received care thisweek?
Charlie Reynolds (07:18):
So, professionally, I have a nurse
that comes over every week tofill out my med planner. I have
shots that I get every week,kind of unprofessionally, my
husband is my caregiver, andthis week he got to do something
(07:39):
fun and I dislocated my kneefrom bending over. I have
Ehlers-Danlos, so I dislocate myjoints a lot, yep, but usually
not my knee. Usually you havelike joints that you dislocate a
lot. For me, it's usually myshoulders and my hips, but the
(07:59):
knee is a new one that's beenpopping up, and he got to
relocate that. And it wasparticularly brutal. And like,
afterwards, he was just kind oflike, you know, it was one of
those that, like, when he put itback in, there was a little bit
(08:20):
of, like, screaming, and therewas a good, like, crunch noise.
And because I'm at the pointthat, like, I just can't go to
the hospital every time I have adislocation, because it's just
like
Elle Billing (08:30):
so many of them
Charlie Reynolds (08:31):
every other day. So he, he gets to act as my
bone relocator, and he's gettingpretty good at it, but
Elle Billing (08:45):
that's the-- I think a different, I think
disabled love has a differentkind of intimacy that the ableds
don't understand or experienceuntil it happens to them.
Charlie Reynolds (09:01):
I mean, like, yeah, that like, he just knows,
like, okay, like, it's time,time to just, like, put your
bones back in. And he justknows, like, how to do every
joint. And like, I might passout, I might have a seizure, I'm
probably gonna scream and like,it's just something that he does
(09:24):
with love and care. And he doesit, like, automatically, often
something that I'm not evenlike, conscious through, because
I'm usually so in pain, like, soout of it that I don't even
really know that it's happening.
Elle Billing (09:43):
Wow, that's, that's, that's intense. I'm glad
that he was able to do that foryou. Though, how's like, how
does your knee feel now? Like,once it's back in, does it
settle down, or does it staysore?
Charlie Reynolds (09:58):
It usually.
Yeah, it will be sore for like aday or two, depending. There are
some cases where, like, we'llput it in wrong and it will,
like, hit a muscle, or it willhit, like a nerve. And I'll
pretty much know that rightaway, yeah, um, and there have
(10:20):
been times where I'll have topop it back out, and we'll have
to pop it back in, and that isagony. But, man, that usually
happens, like once a year, maybetwice a year. But that's, I
mean, that's it. It's rare,because at this point my joint,
my joints are just sohypermobile that they just go in
(10:41):
and out really easily.
Elle Billing (10:47):
Yeah, my sister just was recently in a vehicle
collision and had to go to thechiropractor, and she called me
afterwards, and she goes, you'renever gonna believe what the
chiropractor said to me, and Iwas like, I probably will. She's
like, he asked me if my jointshave always been this mobile.
(11:08):
And I was like, I told you,because several years ago, I was
like, Hey, have you ever lookedat Ehlers Danlos? And she's
like, Yeah, I don't think so.
And now she's like, I think Imight have Ehlers Danlos.
Charlie Reynolds (11:22):
It's, It's crazy. It's crazy. How many of
my friends have it now?
Elle Billing (11:27):
Yeah, yep, the more we learn. It's one of those
things where, like, we're atthat point where, like, the more
we learn about it, we're at thatpoint where, like, so many
people are, like, actually, Ithink, honestly, like the Venn
diagram of my friends who areautistic and my friends who have
Ehlers Danlos is like a circlethat gets a completely overlap,
(11:48):
almost a completely overlappingVenn diagram.
Charlie Reynolds (11:52):
I can't tell you how many friends I had at
school that would be like, man,like, I have so much trouble
eating. I have like, so manylike, allergies now, and I'd be,
I'd just turn around and belike, you know, I think you
might have gastroparesis. Andthen I would talk to them more
and find out, like, they have alot of commonalities for Ehlers
(12:14):
Danlos, and I'm just like, youknow, like they're comorbid. And
you start just like, racking upthese diagnosis and like, they
start sounding like me,
Elle Billing (12:28):
yeah, sounds like your connective tissue doesn't
work right.
Charlie Reynolds (12:32):
Yeah, because all of your internal organs are
connective tissue. And so ifyour joints are hypermobile,
there's a good chance thatyou're going to have problems
with, you know, your gastricsystem.
Elle Billing (12:51):
Yeah. And then for some of us too, that impacts our
reproductive system as well,which my sister and I both have
that fun going on as well. Soyou just, you just got back to
school, and you are studying foryour MFA in art, yes,
Charlie Reynolds (13:07):
yes,
Elle Billing (13:08):
yes, okay, you're also a veteran, right? I'm
giving a little background. Wereyou an artist before you were in
the military, or is this like apost military endeavor?
Charlie Reynolds (13:18):
I didn't actually start making art until
I became disabled...
Elle Billing (13:22):
Oh, okay.
Charlie Reynolds (13:23):
[disabled] in the military
Elle Billing (13:24):
Okay, so that does lead into my next question.
Then, so, how does yourdisability like inform your art?
And then how has your art likeinfluenced how you see your
disability and how you like livewith your disability? Can you
talk about that?
Charlie Reynolds (13:41):
Yeah. Um, so I, I come from an artist family,
but it never really occurred tome, um, to pursue art. My first
memories are of my mom'ssketching. My grandma actually
wins awards for her paintings,but I had, like, never really
(14:01):
considered art myself, but whenI became disabled, I just
suddenly had, like, all thistime on my hands. And like, I
had a disabled body, and I justhad nothing to do. And, like, I
could only watch so much TV,
Elle Billing (14:20):
yeah
Charlie Reynolds (14:20):
so, like, I just started painting my
favorite thing, which was myservice dog. And I just started
painting him, like, over andover and over. And then I just
started branching out. I startedpainting other things. And the
one thing I like to stick to, asfar as my art is, I like to make
(14:42):
things that I can physicallymake. And what I mean by that
is, like other artists willsometimes, like, outsource
things. So like, say, you're apainter, but you want some,
like, metal work. So you'll aska metal worker to make that
thing for you, but for. Me, Ifeel like really conceptually
(15:02):
drawn to things that I can makewith my own hand. So, like, if
my disability prevents me fromwoodworking or metalworking, I'm
going to find ways around it.
I'm not going to include that inmy work. It's meaningful to me
to create something from startto finish. So without my
disability, my art wouldn'texist. And my art is created
(15:23):
through the unique problems thatmy disability creates. That's
what makes my art, my art, andnobody else can make it.
Elle Billing (15:35):
That's really cool. So what kinds of-- so what
are some of the projects you areworking on in grad school?
Charlie Reynolds (15:42):
A lot of my work right now, I'm really
focused on fibers. I startedweaving with a digital loom, but
I've I torn, I tore a lot oftendons in my arm this summer,
and that's very like upper bodyheavy. So I've switched right
(16:04):
now to quilting. So I'm making abunch of quilts because it's a
lot less strenuous on my arm.
But my like, the concepts areall around my military service
right now, it's kind of justwhat I have to talk about. It's
(16:25):
what I have to get out of me,almost like bile. I guess it's
just like this foreign objectthat I have to get out. I talked
about it in my undergrad thesis,and I really thought that, like,
I would be done with the topic.
(16:46):
I had taken what was left of mymilitary uniforms, and I had
burned them, and I had combinedthem with wax and made a bunch
of forms. And I was like, Okay,I'm done with my uniforms. I'm
done thinking about themilitary. I've moved on. It's
over, and then I took a yearoff, and I applied for my
(17:07):
masters. And during that yearoff, all I could think about was
my military service, and I justrealized that I wasn't done. I
was like, I don't know when Iwas going to be done, but I just
knew I wasn't done yet. I had tokeep talking about it, because
it was still bothering me, and Ihad to get it out, and art was
(17:30):
the only way that I knew how totalk about it. I have some
pretty severe PTSD from thattime, and I just the only way
for me to process was by making.
I started as painter, and then Islowly, kind of moved to fibers,
weaving, sewing, quilting,
Elle Billing (17:57):
yeah, when we were prepping for this, we talked a
little bit about how you know,as a veteran artist, people
usually expect one thing, oroften expect one thing, and then
your experience as a veteranartist is often quite different
from what people are expecting.
How do you approach those kindsof conversations?
Charlie Reynolds (18:17):
I really hesitate to identify as a
veteran artist,
Elle Billing (18:21):
yeah, I guess listeners won't know that I was
using quote fingers. I said thatbecause that that is, that's a
really loaded, that's a reallyloaded identification label,
because it does come with a lotof expectations.
Charlie Reynolds (18:35):
I like to refer to myself as disabled
artists or queer artists first,just because I have so much
regret about my service, andjust now, I'm starting to get
more comfortable getting backinto some veteran circles. To
me, there's two types of peoplethat generally join the
(18:56):
military. There's people thatare very patriotic, and then
there's like theunderprivileged. Um, when I
enlisted, I feared for my life.
Um, my parent had tried to killme, and I decided I wasn't going
to give them another chance. Iwas a young, queer kid with
nowhere to go, so the militaryjust seemed like the best
(19:19):
option. Um, in a lot of ways,the Navy saved me, but at the
same time, like, I was takenaway from one abuser, and I was
like, kind of thrown to thewolves. I presented as female
when I was in the military, andI was, like, deeply, in the
closet, and I was sexuallyassaulted multiple, multiple
(19:43):
times. So because of this, likewhen I got out, I was super
suspicious of veterancommunities, because, like when
I looked at these guys, I kindof saw the guys that assaulted
me, so like I didn't trust them,and I also saw the people that
(20:05):
didn't believe me when I triedto report. So with my work being
so anti war and anti military, Ijust never know how other
veterans are gonna feel aboutit. But this year, I joined
about face, which is post-9/11veteran anti war group. And I do
(20:27):
feel like it kind of settled mysoul a little bit in a way,
because I finally found, likesome other veterans that I could
talk to that were like my ageand like minded, that were like
finally understanding what I wassaying. It's made me a little
(20:52):
bit more hopeful. I think thedeath of Aaron Bushnell was
really, like, what triggered meto seek the group, the group
out? Yeah, and I know that, likea bunch of other people, I know
that they had, like, a flux ofveterans joining at that point.
So I know that I wasn't the onlyone, and I don't know that I
(21:14):
would have reached outotherwise,
Elle Billing (21:19):
Yeah, he was the service member who self
immolated, yes?
Charlie Reynolds (21:25):
yes
Elle Billing (21:25):
okay. I just wanted to make sure for myself
and for people who arelistening, yeah, I have, I'm not
in the military. I have not beenin the military, but I had, you
know, like you said, people inour generation, the post-9/11
military and veterans. Yeah,there's, there were kind of that
(21:46):
those two groups, the people whowere underprivileged and the
ones who were super patriotic,and our generation, my friends,
who did enlist. There's alsoseems to be, at least in my
experience, two groups. There'sthe groups like that you would
fit into who came back and wereregretful of their service and
(22:07):
fairly traumatized and isolatedand more inclined to join About
Face. And then the other groupare the ones who probably
experienced a similar crisis ofconscience of some kind. But
instead of reversing course,they doubled down and couldn't
reconcile, because they couldn'treconcile what they thought
(22:30):
before and what they know now.
They just had to ignore the newinformation that they received
about the military by being init, which is at least what I've
noticed in the last 20 years,since people from my cohort have
joined, enlisted and retired orleft. Not very many have become
artists, though, a few, I have afew that are making art. But I'm
(22:51):
really sorry about I'm reallysorry like that, that's such a
cliched term. But like, you knowwhat I mean, like that, all of
that. Yeah, that's reallyshitty. It's like a thing we
hear about, but then when youmeet somebody who has lived
that,
Charlie Reynolds (23:08):
it's weird telling younger kids now that I
that I served when Don't Ask,Don't Tell, was around and I
served when it was repealed aswell, but I did a, I actually
did a project in undergrad aboutit. And, you know, the the
(23:29):
20-somethings, which I, I willsay, I don't, I don't blame them
for not knowing. But you know,the 20-somethings in my class,
they were all coming up to me toask me what it was. So I had to
amend my artist statement toexplain what the policy was,
which it's not their fault fornot knowing, but it just changed
(23:51):
my perspective of like, oh, thiswas something that was in my
lifetime, and now it's history,and it's something that I have
to explain
Elle Billing (24:00):
That was only President Obama that repealed
it.
Charlie Reynolds (24:04):
2013
Elle Billing (24:04):
yeah
Charlie Reynolds (24:05):
is when it was repealed.
Elle Billing (24:06):
That's only been 11 years!
Charlie Reynolds (24:09):
yeah, and it's, it's like, I mean, I
believe it was Clinton thatstarted it.
Elle Billing (24:19):
That sounds right,
Charlie Reynolds (24:21):
because it was, I did 17 posters for 17
years.
Elle Billing (24:26):
That's almost a full generation. They say
generations are roughly 20years. So
Charlie Reynolds (24:32):
yeah, institute-- instituted during
the Clinton Administration. Um,so it's, it's like seeing your
life become history in realtime.
Elle Billing (24:44):
I Experienced some of that when I was teaching,
actually quite a bit of thatwhen I was teaching. Because,
like, you know, these kids wereborn some some of them when I
was, like, in college, or, like,some of the kids were born when
I was had started teaching, andthen they, got to me as a
teacher, and I was like, you arelike, I'm explaining things that
(25:05):
happened, and they're like,that's so long ago. I meant,
like telling kids who were bornin the early aughts that I was
born in the 80s was like mindblowing to them.
Charlie Reynolds (25:17):
I mean, in, like, in the 2010s I knew people
that like, married their quote,unquote fag hags for, like,
military benefits and to, like,keep their cover, wow. But like
to tell kids that today, itmakes me feel like an old man.
Elle Billing (25:42):
It's like when we're somehow the queer elders
and but we're still lookingaround for someone adultier than
we are to explain how thingswork.
Charlie Reynolds (25:51):
Absolutely, yeah,
Elle Billing (25:53):
And that's how I feel. Okay, you being in the
Navy makes the Fleet Week thingclick. I mean, I kind of figured
you must have been, yeah, Imean, I figured you must have
been in the Navy, but so you
Charlie Reynolds (26:06):
it was, it was recently mentioned. Sorry,
Elle Billing (26:09):
no, go ahead.
Funny. I mentioned NCIS,
Charlie Reynolds (26:12):
yes, because I watched it. I watched so much
NCIS before I went into theNavy, almost like I thought it
was gonna prep me or something.
Elle Billing (26:20):
Oh, man, we we watch so much NCIS here I, a
friend of mine actually sent mea TikTok, and it was a video of
like two Boomer aged peoplenapping in their recliners, and
NCIS was on the TV. And thecaption said, NCIS is Cocomelon
for Boomers.
Charlie Reynolds (26:38):
Oh, my God, it really is like a pacifier,
though, isn't it?
Elle Billing (26:43):
Yeah, we watch a lot of NCIS here, and I like, we
watch a lot of procedurals here,and I enjoy doing my own
personal critical analysis of alot of them. Sometimes it's just
candy.
Charlie Reynolds (26:56):
I saw. I saw a meme recently that was like, A C
A B means Abby too.
Elle Billing (27:05):
I know it's like, oh, not Abby!!! yeah, but, I
mean, I think that one probablyhurts a lot of people because
they're like, Yeah, well, butshe's cool. She's she's not a
cop,
Charlie Reynolds (27:15):
no, but she's goth
Elle Billing (27:18):
Yep, goth cop,
Charlie Reynolds (27:19):
not my goth cop, yep.
Elle Billing (27:21):
Oh, so anyway, speaking-- The reason NCIS --
for everybody else listeningin-- the reason NCIS came up in
our conversation is because thatwas my only-- I'm kind of
embarrassed to say that -- is myonly, like schema, my only
background knowledge of FleetWeek is because it would come up
(27:41):
every so often on an episode ofNCIS. You went out to Fleet Week
to do research, which is whatyou had mentioned to me. And I
was like, oh, Fleet Week. I knowwhat that is, because I've
watched NCIS. I am a culturedAmerican. I know there's more to
it than what they show on TV,and I know that NCIS is not an
(28:03):
accurate representation of thejustice system or the justice
system within the US military.
There's my disclaimer. So whatcan you share about your
research trip?
Charlie Reynolds (28:17):
Yeah, so Fleet Week is-- so I went to New
York's Fleet Week. Fleet Week isin a bunch of different cities,
yeah, but I went to New York'sthis year. Fleet Week is like a
time honored tradition of theNavy, Marine and Coast Guard,
where recently deployed shipswill dock in major cities for a
(28:38):
week. The ships become, like,open to the public, so you can
go and tour them. And like,usually, they'll set up
demonstrations. Like the diveteams will do demos, and like
ordinance teams, like the USNavy Fleet will do, like, band
concert stuff like that. I wasactually supposed to go to Fleet
(29:02):
Week back in, like, 2013 I thinkthe San Francisco one, and I got
discharged, like, right beforewe were supposed to go. So it's
kind of like the finishing ofsomething for me a little bit,
but it was also an opportunityfor me to, like, step foot on a
(29:23):
ship again and kind of like,reintegrate myself into military
culture. I took a ton of photos,I kept a sketch journal, and I
spoke to a bunch of sailors. Allthe research is going to like my
thesis this year, and I'mtentatively planning a fiber
(29:47):
recreation of the ship that Iserved on.
Elle Billing (29:50):
You said, a fiber recreation?
Charlie Reynolds (29:52):
Yes, like a fabric...
Elle Billing (29:55):
I was just-- Yep, no, I Yeah. I was just making
sure my brain had caught thatcorrectly
Charlie Reynolds (30:01):
I might have stumbled on the word.
Elle Billing (30:03):
I think my, I think my brain is the thing that
stumbled. I don't think it wasyou.
Charlie Reynolds (30:09):
I like, I like making my creations out of,
like, uniforms, specifically,
Elle Billing (30:15):
yeah,
Charlie Reynolds (30:17):
because I like the materials that I use to
have, like, a meaning or memoryto them. I especially like it if
they're like, stained or likethere's holes in them, because
to me, like, that's like,there's memories in that. Yeah.
So I want to make thisrecreation out of the uniforms,
(30:43):
and so that's what all thisresearch was going to I think it
will be really cathartic tocreate it and then be able to,
like, fold it up and put itaway.
Elle Billing (30:55):
That's really compelling. I understand what
you mean about using things thathave memory to them. I use a lot
of vintage books in my artwork.
The pages end up collaged inbetween the layers of paint. I
collect vintage dictionariesbecause, well, I'm a, I used to
be a reading teacher, so I likewords and language, and I like
(31:16):
old archaic-- I like books thathave archaic ideas in them that
we don't, hopefully don'tascribe to anymore.
Charlie Reynolds (31:28):
I really love books that have marginalia in
them.
Elle Billing (31:32):
Yes, those are really,
Charlie Reynolds (31:33):
that's what I Yeah, whenever I'm at a used
bookstore, that's what I lookfor. If it has a bunch of
marginalia, I'm like, Oh, thisis mine now.
Elle Billing (31:39):
Yeah, those are fun too. I actually one of my
favorite finds from the last fewyears was a old copy from like,
the 20s of Gray's Anatomy andPhysiology.
Charlie Reynolds (31:53):
I have a Gray's Anatomy too, yeah,
Elle Billing (31:55):
but it had, what's what I love about it is that the
guys who owned it, his name wasin the front cover, and he was a
local rancher, farmer-rancherwho, like, bred and developed
his own breed of beef cattle.
So, like, his name was superfamiliar to me, because I grew
up around here, and, like,everyone knows these cattle. And
so like, this guy was, like,actually, like, into biology and
(32:20):
animal breeding and stuff. Andso it was, like, his copy of
Grey's Anatomy. And I was like,Yeah, I got it for a quarter at
the library sale. Like, that wasa great find. I added it to my
collection. Like, so I so Iabsolutely get what you mean by
like, having thing, like stuffthat has memory and provenance
(32:44):
and like significance, even ifit's like that book, yeah,
Gray's Anatomy is cool. Peopleknow what Grey's Anatomy and
Physiology is. But that specificcopy means something to the
people in my town of 800 people,yeah. And so it means something
to me. You know, I get it. I getit. I think that's really cool.
I'm going to be interested tofollow that project on Instagram
(33:06):
or wherever, or wherever youpost it or put it. Before we get
to the last question, is thereanything else that you wanted to
share about your art practice orabout your experience in the
Navy, or anything else aboutyour life you want to share
Charlie Reynolds (33:24):
very open ended question,
Elle Billing (33:26):
or like, where we can follow you on social media?
Like, that's a really morespecific one.
Charlie Reynolds (33:32):
Oh, well, that's yes. You can follow me at
paints charlie on Instagram.
Elle Billing (33:38):
Great.
Charlie Reynolds (33:39):
And I also have a website,
charliereynoldsstudio.com
Elle Billing (33:46):
All right, I will put those in the show notes. So
that was at paintscharlie onInstagram and
charliereynoldsstudio.com
Charlie Reynolds (33:55):
Yes
Elle Billing (33:55):
Great. So everyone should go follow Charlie. Go
follow Charlie. I'm stumbling onmy words today too. I'd probably
need more coffee or less. Whoknows,
Charlie Reynolds (34:07):
I'm on my second cup.
Elle Billing (34:09):
I have to drink about the same amount every day
because of my migraines, becauseif I alter how much caffeine,
it's because it's avasoconstrictor. I just have a
very delicate brain.
Charlie Reynolds (34:22):
I can't have any hot coffee, so I can only
have ice. Oh,
Elle Billing (34:28):
is that a gastro thing?
Charlie Reynolds (34:31):
I can't I can't really stand like having
hot, hot coffee. It just, oh,that's one thing I've lost
that's too bad, just toointense. I
Elle Billing (34:43):
mean, I wouldn't mind in the summer so much, but
like in the winter, I wouldreally miss it.
Charlie Reynolds (34:47):
Yeah, I'm I'm that bitch that it's like three
degrees out, I'm getting like,an ice latte, and they're
looking at me like, What iswrong with you? And I'm like,
just don't worry about it.
Elle Billing (34:59):
You're like, it's okay. I'm gay.
Charlie Reynolds (35:02):
Yeah, I'm like, I'm just super gay. Don't
worry about it.
Elle Billing (35:05):
You're like, I'm the reason for the meme of
people.
Charlie Reynolds (35:10):
But I just, I can never handle it, like I
would just, I'll just, you know,just comes right back up. Just
too, too strong. I mean, becausemy my coffee is very, very
watered down. I mean, it's notreally coffee at that point.
Elle Billing (35:26):
And I grew up with farmer coffee, so when I make my
coffee in the morning, it's twoshots of espresso and just it's
not even an Americano. I don'teven add enough water for that.
Charlie Reynolds (35:36):
That's how my husband is. But I mean, I didn't
drink coffee until I was on theship. And it was just
desperation at that point,because they would have us up
all night. And then it was, itwas so cold that, like I was
like, I have to drink something.
Elle Billing (35:53):
Warm me up from the inside.
Charlie Reynolds (35:56):
And, I mean, they get gross about stuff too.
I mean, if you ever wash like achief's mug, they say, like, the
coffee is a flavor. So sometimesthey would try to, like, trick
the the youngest guy and belike, hey, go wash chief's mug.
And it's like, like a big sin,because the chiefs, like, try
(36:19):
to, like, keep, like a grimegoing in their mugs, and you
ruin it
Elle Billing (36:25):
like a cast iron pan. But worse,
Charlie Reynolds (36:27):
oh yeah, but worse, yeah, like you ruin the
flavor, and chiefs go crazy ifyou wash their mug. Wash their
mug, yeah? So they, every oncein a while look at somebody
Elle Billing (36:45):
like someone new, who doesn't know?
Charlie Reynolds (36:47):
yeah, because everybody does a rotation in the
chief's mess.
Elle Billing (36:52):
Gotcha
Charlie Reynolds (36:52):
I was in the officer mess, okay, which was
awful. I had a officer whistleat me like I was a dog. And so
the chef put his taco on thefloor and then served it to him.
Elle Billing (37:07):
You're gonna whistle like a dog, eat like
one.
Charlie Reynolds (37:10):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (37:11):
All right, we have one last question. So I'm
wondering, what is one truething that you have learned from
your creative practice?
Charlie Reynolds (37:20):
So I think my one true thing would be that,
you know, art doesn't have to belike a stay up all night, drink
five coffees in a row, likegrind, especially in art school,
there is so much pressure tocompete and to work harder than
the next person. It's definitelynot disability friendly. I've
(37:45):
had to shout for myself everystep of the way, but there has
to be space for people like us,artists that have to like rest
and take breaks, artists thathave to alter equipment. And
part of the reason why I decidedto pursue my masters was because
(38:06):
I didn't see people like me inthese spaces when I, like looked
around. So I decided to, like,make space. So I think that's my
one true thing is that, likedisabled people can make art,
and we should, and there's spacefor us there. And like, we don't
(38:29):
have to try to keep up or try todo the same thing as people that
can stay up all night and, like,put their bodies to the limit.
Just because they can do thatdoesn't mean that we should, or
that we should try to keep upwith that. You know, we can go
our own pace. We can take longeron projects, and that's fine.
(38:52):
And, I mean, it's taken me along time to learn that, and I
still have to remind myself
Elle Billing (38:57):
thank you for saying all that. That's perfect.
Yeah, that's all of that. Iresonate with that really
strongly. And I would add thateven the people who aren't
disabled like us, who couldconceivably push their bodies to
the limit and work all night,they don't have to. They can
(39:18):
rest too.
Charlie Reynolds (39:19):
I agree, and I think that, like, the less that
we push that kind of culture,the better it is for everybody.
I think so. I mean, when youinclude accommodations, it
affects everybody, not just thedisabled people in the room,
Elle Billing (39:38):
yep. Thank you so much for being here, I really
appreciate our conversation.
Charlie Reynolds (39:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
Elle Billing (39:44):
Yeah, this was fun. I hope you have a great
year.
Charlie Reynolds (39:48):
Thank you. I feel like we're friends already.
Elle Billing (39:50):
I think so too.
I'm so glad we connected.
Congrats on the award.
Charlie Reynolds (39:55):
Thanks you too.
Elle Billing (39:57):
I hope your... is it still like a thesis, or is it
more like a project or adissertation? When you do an
MFA,
Charlie Reynolds (40:04):
this would be a thesis
Elle Billing (40:06):
a thesis, all right. Well, I hope your thesis
and the boat and all of thatgoes really well for you.
Charlie Reynolds (40:12):
Thanks so much.
Elle Billing (40:13):
I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Charlie Reynolds (40:15):
I'll definitely keep in touch.
Elle Billing (40:19):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf. To get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit hoorfpodcast.comJoin the Blessed Herd of St
Winkus (40:33):
by signing up for our newsletter, you can get Hoorf!
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(40:54):
If you become a patron for only$3 a month, you can support the
creation of this podcast. Helppay my editor and join a
community of caregivers outhere, just doing our best. Thank
you again for joining me, ElleBilling, the chronically ill
queer femme who is very tired,on this episode of Hoorf. until
next time, be excellent to eachother. Hoorf is hosted by Elle
(41:18):
Billing at elleandwink. Audioediting by Ricki Cummings at
rickiep00h, music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio, LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms. At
hoorf podcast, at H, O, O, R, F.
PodcastI'm the reason for the meme,
(41:45):
people.
Hi. My name is Elle Billing. I am a chronically
(00:03):
ill queer femme, and I'm tired.
I'm here this episode, and everyepisode, to dig at the roots of
our collective fatigue, exploreways to direct our care in
compassionate and sustainableways, and to harness creative
expression to heal ourselves andto heal our world. Welcome to
Hoorf (00:17):
radical care in the late capitalist heckscape.
(01:00):
My guest for this episode isCharlie Reynolds. Charlie
Reynolds is a conceptual artistwho explores themes of war,
gender and disability usingfibers, installations and
sculpture. He seeks to inviteviewers to investigate the
limitations of the body and theeuphoria of breaking free from
it. His art and developingpractices reflect the struggle
(01:20):
to reconcile his identity andhis abilities. Charlie draws
inspiration from the traditionof arte povera, incorporating
meaningful or sentimentalmaterials into projects, giving
them a new purpose and life,while also considering an
object's history. Charlie is anMFA candidate at the University
of Michigan, where he hopes toexpand his practice with a
specific interest in weaving,hand-dyeing and quilting. He's
(01:42):
exploring the history oftransgender rights and medicine
through his art, with aparticular interest in the
current anti trans laws in theUnited States. Having fled such
laws in Tennessee, he is readyto use this time to fight.
Charlie is one of the ninerecipients of the 2024 Midwest
Award for Artists withDisabilities, and I am really,
really excited to talk to himabout his art practice today on
(02:03):
the podcast. Welcome to theshow. Hello, Charlie. Welcome to
Hoorf.
Charlie Reynolds (02:10):
Hi. Thanks for having me.
Elle Billing (02:12):
Yeah, thanks for being here. I'm really excited
to have you on the podcast. Youare my first interview of season
three. I'm so excited.
Charlie Reynolds (02:21):
Thanks so much.
Elle Billing (02:22):
Yeah, so for those who don't know, which would be
everybody, because this is thefirst episode of the season,
Charlie and I were both winnersof the 2024 Midwest Award for
Artists with Disabilities, whichwas announced this summer. And
like that was like, I don'tknow, I don't know about you,
(02:42):
but like that was a huge honorfor me. It was a pretty big deal
in my life, and so I wanted tointerview other recipients of
the award about their artpractice and about their lives,
and I was really happy thatCharlie replied almost
immediately to my email, which Ialways like as a podcast host,
(03:05):
is getting replies to my emails.
So I'm excited to have you heretoday.
Charlie Reynolds (03:11):
Yeah. I mean, I was very surprised to first of
all get the award, and then toget your email. I was excited to
talk to the other awardees. It'sactually really funny when I got
the email that I got the awardthe very next day, I got an
email saying I didn't get it.
Elle Billing (03:29):
So did I!
Charlie Reynolds (03:30):
You did too?
Elle Billing (03:31):
Yeah, I think we all did.
Charlie Reynolds (03:33):
And so I had a panic attack, like, for like an
hour, and so I was on the phonewith them, like, hello. What's
going on? Like, thinking like,oh, how could they do this to
me, making me think I didn't getit. And then as they got on the
phone with me, I got that thirdemail saying, Oh, we're so
(03:53):
sorry. We made a mistake. Youdefinitely did get it. And the
guy was on the phone was like,we're so sorry for any, any
heartache that we caused, but itwas just a mistake email. But I
was just like, you can't do thisto me. I have PTSD, I have, I
(04:16):
have seizures, I have, I haveproblems, like, I have a panic
disorder,
Elle Billing (04:21):
right? I i also have anxiety and but I'm, I'm so
busy with taking care of my-- Ididn't even have time to worry
about it, like, so, like, I gotthe-- I read the correction
email before I read the onewhere they said I didn't get it.
And so, like, I read them out oforder. And I was like, Oh, well,
that would have upset me.
Charlie Reynolds (04:44):
No, I screenshot it. I send it to
group chats. And I was like, youguys, like, I had already
celebrated and everything.
Elle Billing (04:52):
Oh, yeah, like I had told my parents. I was like,
I can't talk about this anywhereelse. Oh, and then I told my
sister, because she and I bothhave the habit of like, well, we
know this about each other. Wecan't hold on to surprises.
Like, we'll buy each other agift and then immediately be
like, I bought you the coolestthing. So, yeah, when I read the
(05:13):
second email that was like,sorry about the email that we
sent that said you didn't getthe award. You really did get
it. And I was like, oh, therewas drama. I'm glad I missed
that.
Charlie Reynolds (05:24):
I lived the full experience.
Elle Billing (05:26):
I'm sorry you had to take that one for the team.
I'm sure that stressed outeverybody who actually got it in
real time, because, I mean, it'salso a grant, and so like
disabled people, as we know andlive, are underemployed very
often. And most grants that weapply for are there's
restrictions attached to them,like, you have to spend them in
(05:48):
certain ways. And this one isjust like, here we love you,
have some money, and it's veryexciting. And then so, like,
because, like, I'm sure you wereimmediately making plans,
Charlie Reynolds (05:59):
oh, oh, absolutely.
Elle Billing (06:01):
And then the next day to be like, none of them
plans can happen.
Charlie Reynolds (06:04):
Oh yeah. And I had immediately like, oh, well,
Serves you right for thinkingthat you were gonna buy all
those uniforms and all thatfabric with that money. Serves
you right. Charlie,
Elle Billing (06:15):
yeah, nope. I totally understand the thought
process.
Charlie Reynolds (06:18):
And then it was just like, Oh, just kidding,
and I'm like, playing with myemotions.
Elle Billing (06:23):
Oh yeah. I mean, it's I like, I know how it
happens, though, because the wayemail management systems work,
like Flodesk or ConvertKit, orany of those, like list
organizers, if they hadforgotten to take us out of the
list before they sent the massemail that said, thank you for
applying. That's probably whathappened. And then like, oh
(06:45):
shoot, we forgot to take ninepeople off that-- nine very
specific people off that list.
Charlie Reynolds (06:53):
They're like, hurry, hurry, hurry. But at that
point, I was like, until I'm ontheir website, I don't believe
it.
Elle Billing (07:00):
That's yeah, I understand. So now that we've
talked about all of the thingsthat can screw up our week, I
would like to know, how have youreceived care, my question that
I ask everybody, and I lovegetting the answers to it, how
have you received care thisweek?
Charlie Reynolds (07:18):
So, professionally, I have a nurse
that comes over every week tofill out my med planner. I have
shots that I get every week,kind of unprofessionally, my
husband is my caregiver, andthis week he got to do something
(07:39):
fun and I dislocated my kneefrom bending over. I have
Ehlers-Danlos, so I dislocate myjoints a lot, yep, but usually
not my knee. Usually you havelike joints that you dislocate a
lot. For me, it's usually myshoulders and my hips, but the
(07:59):
knee is a new one that's beenpopping up, and he got to
relocate that. And it wasparticularly brutal. And like,
afterwards, he was just kind oflike, you know, it was one of
those that, like, when he put itback in, there was a little bit
(08:20):
of, like, screaming, and therewas a good, like, crunch noise.
And because I'm at the pointthat, like, I just can't go to
the hospital every time I have adislocation, because it's just
like
Elle Billing (08:30):
so many of them
Charlie Reynolds (08:31):
every other day. So he, he gets to act as my
bone relocator, and he's gettingpretty good at it, but
Elle Billing (08:45):
that's the-- I think a different, I think
disabled love has a differentkind of intimacy that the ableds
don't understand or experienceuntil it happens to them.
Charlie Reynolds (09:01):
I mean, like, yeah, that like, he just knows,
like, okay, like, it's time,time to just, like, put your
bones back in. And he justknows, like, how to do every
joint. And like, I might passout, I might have a seizure, I'm
probably gonna scream and like,it's just something that he does
(09:24):
with love and care. And he doesit, like, automatically, often
something that I'm not evenlike, conscious through, because
I'm usually so in pain, like, soout of it that I don't even
really know that it's happening.
Elle Billing (09:43):
Wow, that's, that's, that's intense. I'm glad
that he was able to do that foryou. Though, how's like, how
does your knee feel now? Like,once it's back in, does it
settle down, or does it staysore?
Charlie Reynolds (09:58):
It usually.
Yeah, it will be sore for like aday or two, depending. There are
some cases where, like, we'llput it in wrong and it will,
like, hit a muscle, or it willhit, like a nerve. And I'll
pretty much know that rightaway, yeah, um, and there have
(10:20):
been times where I'll have topop it back out, and we'll have
to pop it back in, and that isagony. But, man, that usually
happens, like once a year, maybetwice a year. But that's, I
mean, that's it. It's rare,because at this point my joint,
my joints are just sohypermobile that they just go in
(10:41):
and out really easily.
Elle Billing (10:47):
Yeah, my sister just was recently in a vehicle
collision and had to go to thechiropractor, and she called me
afterwards, and she goes, you'renever gonna believe what the
chiropractor said to me, and Iwas like, I probably will. She's
like, he asked me if my jointshave always been this mobile.
(11:08):
And I was like, I told you,because several years ago, I was
like, Hey, have you ever lookedat Ehlers Danlos? And she's
like, Yeah, I don't think so.
And now she's like, I think Imight have Ehlers Danlos.
Charlie Reynolds (11:22):
It's, It's crazy. It's crazy. How many of
my friends have it now?
Elle Billing (11:27):
Yeah, yep, the more we learn. It's one of those
things where, like, we're atthat point where, like, the more
we learn about it, we're at thatpoint where, like, so many
people are, like, actually, Ithink, honestly, like the Venn
diagram of my friends who areautistic and my friends who have
Ehlers Danlos is like a circlethat gets a completely overlap,
(11:48):
almost a completely overlappingVenn diagram.
Charlie Reynolds (11:52):
I can't tell you how many friends I had at
school that would be like, man,like, I have so much trouble
eating. I have like, so manylike, allergies now, and I'd be,
I'd just turn around and belike, you know, I think you
might have gastroparesis. Andthen I would talk to them more
and find out, like, they have alot of commonalities for Ehlers
(12:14):
Danlos, and I'm just like, youknow, like they're comorbid. And
you start just like, racking upthese diagnosis and like, they
start sounding like me,
Elle Billing (12:28):
yeah, sounds like your connective tissue doesn't
work right.
Charlie Reynolds (12:32):
Yeah, because all of your internal organs are
connective tissue. And so ifyour joints are hypermobile,
there's a good chance thatyou're going to have problems
with, you know, your gastricsystem.
Elle Billing (12:51):
Yeah. And then for some of us too, that impacts our
reproductive system as well,which my sister and I both have
that fun going on as well. Soyou just, you just got back to
school, and you are studying foryour MFA in art, yes,
Charlie Reynolds (13:07):
yes,
Elle Billing (13:08):
yes, okay, you're also a veteran, right? I'm
giving a little background. Wereyou an artist before you were in
the military, or is this like apost military endeavor?
Charlie Reynolds (13:18):
I didn't actually start making art until
I became disabled...
Elle Billing (13:22):
Oh, okay.
Charlie Reynolds (13:23):
[disabled] in the military
Elle Billing (13:24):
Okay, so that does lead into my next question.
Then, so, how does yourdisability like inform your art?
And then how has your art likeinfluenced how you see your
disability and how you like livewith your disability? Can you
talk about that?
Charlie Reynolds (13:41):
Yeah. Um, so I, I come from an artist family,
but it never really occurred tome, um, to pursue art. My first
memories are of my mom'ssketching. My grandma actually
wins awards for her paintings,but I had, like, never really
(14:01):
considered art myself, but whenI became disabled, I just
suddenly had, like, all thistime on my hands. And like, I
had a disabled body, and I justhad nothing to do. And, like, I
could only watch so much TV,
Elle Billing (14:20):
yeah
Charlie Reynolds (14:20):
so, like, I just started painting my
favorite thing, which was myservice dog. And I just started
painting him, like, over andover and over. And then I just
started branching out. I startedpainting other things. And the
one thing I like to stick to, asfar as my art is, I like to make
(14:42):
things that I can physicallymake. And what I mean by that
is, like other artists willsometimes, like, outsource
things. So like, say, you're apainter, but you want some,
like, metal work. So you'll aska metal worker to make that
thing for you, but for. Me, Ifeel like really conceptually
(15:02):
drawn to things that I can makewith my own hand. So, like, if
my disability prevents me fromwoodworking or metalworking, I'm
going to find ways around it.
I'm not going to include that inmy work. It's meaningful to me
to create something from startto finish. So without my
disability, my art wouldn'texist. And my art is created
(15:23):
through the unique problems thatmy disability creates. That's
what makes my art, my art, andnobody else can make it.
Elle Billing (15:35):
That's really cool. So what kinds of-- so what
are some of the projects you areworking on in grad school?
Charlie Reynolds (15:42):
A lot of my work right now, I'm really
focused on fibers. I startedweaving with a digital loom, but
I've I torn, I tore a lot oftendons in my arm this summer,
and that's very like upper bodyheavy. So I've switched right
(16:04):
now to quilting. So I'm making abunch of quilts because it's a
lot less strenuous on my arm.
But my like, the concepts areall around my military service
right now, it's kind of justwhat I have to talk about. It's
(16:25):
what I have to get out of me,almost like bile. I guess it's
just like this foreign objectthat I have to get out. I talked
about it in my undergrad thesis,and I really thought that, like,
I would be done with the topic.
(16:46):
I had taken what was left of mymilitary uniforms, and I had
burned them, and I had combinedthem with wax and made a bunch
of forms. And I was like, Okay,I'm done with my uniforms. I'm
done thinking about themilitary. I've moved on. It's
over, and then I took a yearoff, and I applied for my
(17:07):
masters. And during that yearoff, all I could think about was
my military service, and I justrealized that I wasn't done. I
was like, I don't know when Iwas going to be done, but I just
knew I wasn't done yet. I had tokeep talking about it, because
it was still bothering me, and Ihad to get it out, and art was
(17:30):
the only way that I knew how totalk about it. I have some
pretty severe PTSD from thattime, and I just the only way
for me to process was by making.
I started as painter, and then Islowly, kind of moved to fibers,
weaving, sewing, quilting,
Elle Billing (17:57):
yeah, when we were prepping for this, we talked a
little bit about how you know,as a veteran artist, people
usually expect one thing, oroften expect one thing, and then
your experience as a veteranartist is often quite different
from what people are expecting.
How do you approach those kindsof conversations?
Charlie Reynolds (18:17):
I really hesitate to identify as a
veteran artist,
Elle Billing (18:21):
yeah, I guess listeners won't know that I was
using quote fingers. I said thatbecause that that is, that's a
really loaded, that's a reallyloaded identification label,
because it does come with a lotof expectations.
Charlie Reynolds (18:35):
I like to refer to myself as disabled
artists or queer artists first,just because I have so much
regret about my service, andjust now, I'm starting to get
more comfortable getting backinto some veteran circles. To
me, there's two types of peoplethat generally join the
(18:56):
military. There's people thatare very patriotic, and then
there's like theunderprivileged. Um, when I
enlisted, I feared for my life.
Um, my parent had tried to killme, and I decided I wasn't going
to give them another chance. Iwas a young, queer kid with
nowhere to go, so the militaryjust seemed like the best
(19:19):
option. Um, in a lot of ways,the Navy saved me, but at the
same time, like, I was takenaway from one abuser, and I was
like, kind of thrown to thewolves. I presented as female
when I was in the military, andI was, like, deeply, in the
closet, and I was sexuallyassaulted multiple, multiple
(19:43):
times. So because of this, likewhen I got out, I was super
suspicious of veterancommunities, because, like when
I looked at these guys, I kindof saw the guys that assaulted
me, so like I didn't trust them,and I also saw the people that
(20:05):
didn't believe me when I triedto report. So with my work being
so anti war and anti military, Ijust never know how other
veterans are gonna feel aboutit. But this year, I joined
about face, which is post-9/11veteran anti war group. And I do
(20:27):
feel like it kind of settled mysoul a little bit in a way,
because I finally found, likesome other veterans that I could
talk to that were like my ageand like minded, that were like
finally understanding what I wassaying. It's made me a little
(20:52):
bit more hopeful. I think thedeath of Aaron Bushnell was
really, like, what triggered meto seek the group, the group
out? Yeah, and I know that, likea bunch of other people, I know
that they had, like, a flux ofveterans joining at that point.
So I know that I wasn't the onlyone, and I don't know that I
(21:14):
would have reached outotherwise,
Elle Billing (21:19):
Yeah, he was the service member who self
immolated, yes?
Charlie Reynolds (21:25):
yes
Elle Billing (21:25):
okay. I just wanted to make sure for myself
and for people who arelistening, yeah, I have, I'm not
in the military. I have not beenin the military, but I had, you
know, like you said, people inour generation, the post-9/11
military and veterans. Yeah,there's, there were kind of that
(21:46):
those two groups, the people whowere underprivileged and the
ones who were super patriotic,and our generation, my friends,
who did enlist. There's alsoseems to be, at least in my
experience, two groups. There'sthe groups like that you would
fit into who came back and wereregretful of their service and
(22:07):
fairly traumatized and isolatedand more inclined to join About
Face. And then the other groupare the ones who probably
experienced a similar crisis ofconscience of some kind. But
instead of reversing course,they doubled down and couldn't
reconcile, because they couldn'treconcile what they thought
(22:30):
before and what they know now.
They just had to ignore the newinformation that they received
about the military by being init, which is at least what I've
noticed in the last 20 years,since people from my cohort have
joined, enlisted and retired orleft. Not very many have become
artists, though, a few, I have afew that are making art. But I'm
(22:51):
really sorry about I'm reallysorry like that, that's such a
cliched term. But like, you knowwhat I mean, like that, all of
that. Yeah, that's reallyshitty. It's like a thing we
hear about, but then when youmeet somebody who has lived
that,
Charlie Reynolds (23:08):
it's weird telling younger kids now that I
that I served when Don't Ask,Don't Tell, was around and I
served when it was repealed aswell, but I did a, I actually
did a project in undergrad aboutit. And, you know, the the
(23:29):
20-somethings, which I, I willsay, I don't, I don't blame them
for not knowing. But you know,the 20-somethings in my class,
they were all coming up to me toask me what it was. So I had to
amend my artist statement toexplain what the policy was,
which it's not their fault fornot knowing, but it just changed
(23:51):
my perspective of like, oh, thiswas something that was in my
lifetime, and now it's history,and it's something that I have
to explain
Elle Billing (24:00):
That was only President Obama that repealed
it.
Charlie Reynolds (24:04):
2013
Elle Billing (24:04):
yeah
Charlie Reynolds (24:05):
is when it was repealed.
Elle Billing (24:06):
That's only been 11 years!
Charlie Reynolds (24:09):
yeah, and it's, it's like, I mean, I
believe it was Clinton thatstarted it.
Elle Billing (24:19):
That sounds right,
Charlie Reynolds (24:21):
because it was, I did 17 posters for 17
years.
Elle Billing (24:26):
That's almost a full generation. They say
generations are roughly 20years. So
Charlie Reynolds (24:32):
yeah, institute-- instituted during
the Clinton Administration. Um,so it's, it's like seeing your
life become history in realtime.
Elle Billing (24:44):
I Experienced some of that when I was teaching,
actually quite a bit of thatwhen I was teaching. Because,
like, you know, these kids wereborn some some of them when I
was, like, in college, or, like,some of the kids were born when
I was had started teaching, andthen they, got to me as a
teacher, and I was like, you arelike, I'm explaining things that
(25:05):
happened, and they're like,that's so long ago. I meant,
like telling kids who were bornin the early aughts that I was
born in the 80s was like mindblowing to them.
Charlie Reynolds (25:17):
I mean, in, like, in the 2010s I knew people
that like, married their quote,unquote fag hags for, like,
military benefits and to, like,keep their cover, wow. But like
to tell kids that today, itmakes me feel like an old man.
Elle Billing (25:42):
It's like when we're somehow the queer elders
and but we're still lookingaround for someone adultier than
we are to explain how thingswork.
Charlie Reynolds (25:51):
Absolutely, yeah,
Elle Billing (25:53):
And that's how I feel. Okay, you being in the
Navy makes the Fleet Week thingclick. I mean, I kind of figured
you must have been, yeah, Imean, I figured you must have
been in the Navy, but so you
Charlie Reynolds (26:06):
it was, it was recently mentioned. Sorry,
Elle Billing (26:09):
no, go ahead.
Funny. I mentioned NCIS,
Charlie Reynolds (26:12):
yes, because I watched it. I watched so much
NCIS before I went into theNavy, almost like I thought it
was gonna prep me or something.
Elle Billing (26:20):
Oh, man, we we watch so much NCIS here I, a
friend of mine actually sent mea TikTok, and it was a video of
like two Boomer aged peoplenapping in their recliners, and
NCIS was on the TV. And thecaption said, NCIS is Cocomelon
for Boomers.
Charlie Reynolds (26:38):
Oh, my God, it really is like a pacifier,
though, isn't it?
Elle Billing (26:43):
Yeah, we watch a lot of NCIS here, and I like, we
watch a lot of procedurals here,and I enjoy doing my own
personal critical analysis of alot of them. Sometimes it's just
candy.
Charlie Reynolds (26:56):
I saw. I saw a meme recently that was like, A C
A B means Abby too.
Elle Billing (27:05):
I know it's like, oh, not Abby!!! yeah, but, I
mean, I think that one probablyhurts a lot of people because
they're like, Yeah, well, butshe's cool. She's she's not a
cop,
Charlie Reynolds (27:15):
no, but she's goth
Elle Billing (27:18):
Yep, goth cop,
Charlie Reynolds (27:19):
not my goth cop, yep.
Elle Billing (27:21):
Oh, so anyway, speaking-- The reason NCIS --
for everybody else listeningin-- the reason NCIS came up in
our conversation is because thatwas my only-- I'm kind of
embarrassed to say that -- is myonly, like schema, my only
background knowledge of FleetWeek is because it would come up
(27:41):
every so often on an episode ofNCIS. You went out to Fleet Week
to do research, which is whatyou had mentioned to me. And I
was like, oh, Fleet Week. I knowwhat that is, because I've
watched NCIS. I am a culturedAmerican. I know there's more to
it than what they show on TV,and I know that NCIS is not an
(28:03):
accurate representation of thejustice system or the justice
system within the US military.
There's my disclaimer. So whatcan you share about your
research trip?
Charlie Reynolds (28:17):
Yeah, so Fleet Week is-- so I went to New
York's Fleet Week. Fleet Week isin a bunch of different cities,
yeah, but I went to New York'sthis year. Fleet Week is like a
time honored tradition of theNavy, Marine and Coast Guard,
where recently deployed shipswill dock in major cities for a
(28:38):
week. The ships become, like,open to the public, so you can
go and tour them. And like,usually, they'll set up
demonstrations. Like the diveteams will do demos, and like
ordinance teams, like the USNavy Fleet will do, like, band
concert stuff like that. I wasactually supposed to go to Fleet
(29:02):
Week back in, like, 2013 I thinkthe San Francisco one, and I got
discharged, like, right beforewe were supposed to go. So it's
kind of like the finishing ofsomething for me a little bit,
but it was also an opportunityfor me to, like, step foot on a
(29:23):
ship again and kind of like,reintegrate myself into military
culture. I took a ton of photos,I kept a sketch journal, and I
spoke to a bunch of sailors. Allthe research is going to like my
thesis this year, and I'mtentatively planning a fiber
(29:47):
recreation of the ship that Iserved on.
Elle Billing (29:50):
You said, a fiber recreation?
Charlie Reynolds (29:52):
Yes, like a fabric...
Elle Billing (29:55):
I was just-- Yep, no, I Yeah. I was just making
sure my brain had caught thatcorrectly
Charlie Reynolds (30:01):
I might have stumbled on the word.
Elle Billing (30:03):
I think my, I think my brain is the thing that
stumbled. I don't think it wasyou.
Charlie Reynolds (30:09):
I like, I like making my creations out of,
like, uniforms, specifically,
Elle Billing (30:15):
yeah,
Charlie Reynolds (30:17):
because I like the materials that I use to
have, like, a meaning or memoryto them. I especially like it if
they're like, stained or likethere's holes in them, because
to me, like, that's like,there's memories in that. Yeah.
So I want to make thisrecreation out of the uniforms,
(30:43):
and so that's what all thisresearch was going to I think it
will be really cathartic tocreate it and then be able to,
like, fold it up and put itaway.
Elle Billing (30:55):
That's really compelling. I understand what
you mean about using things thathave memory to them. I use a lot
of vintage books in my artwork.
The pages end up collaged inbetween the layers of paint. I
collect vintage dictionariesbecause, well, I'm a, I used to
be a reading teacher, so I likewords and language, and I like
(31:16):
old archaic-- I like books thathave archaic ideas in them that
we don't, hopefully don'tascribe to anymore.
Charlie Reynolds (31:28):
I really love books that have marginalia in
them.
Elle Billing (31:32):
Yes, those are really,
Charlie Reynolds (31:33):
that's what I Yeah, whenever I'm at a used
bookstore, that's what I lookfor. If it has a bunch of
marginalia, I'm like, Oh, thisis mine now.
Elle Billing (31:39):
Yeah, those are fun too. I actually one of my
favorite finds from the last fewyears was a old copy from like,
the 20s of Gray's Anatomy andPhysiology.
Charlie Reynolds (31:53):
I have a Gray's Anatomy too, yeah,
Elle Billing (31:55):
but it had, what's what I love about it is that the
guys who owned it, his name wasin the front cover, and he was a
local rancher, farmer-rancherwho, like, bred and developed
his own breed of beef cattle.
So, like, his name was superfamiliar to me, because I grew
up around here, and, like,everyone knows these cattle. And
so like, this guy was, like,actually, like, into biology and
(32:20):
animal breeding and stuff. Andso it was, like, his copy of
Grey's Anatomy. And I was like,Yeah, I got it for a quarter at
the library sale. Like, that wasa great find. I added it to my
collection. Like, so I so Iabsolutely get what you mean by
like, having thing, like stuffthat has memory and provenance
(32:44):
and like significance, even ifit's like that book, yeah,
Gray's Anatomy is cool. Peopleknow what Grey's Anatomy and
Physiology is. But that specificcopy means something to the
people in my town of 800 people,yeah. And so it means something
to me. You know, I get it. I getit. I think that's really cool.
I'm going to be interested tofollow that project on Instagram
(33:06):
or wherever, or wherever youpost it or put it. Before we get
to the last question, is thereanything else that you wanted to
share about your art practice orabout your experience in the
Navy, or anything else aboutyour life you want to share
Charlie Reynolds (33:24):
very open ended question,
Elle Billing (33:26):
or like, where we can follow you on social media?
Like, that's a really morespecific one.
Charlie Reynolds (33:32):
Oh, well, that's yes. You can follow me at
paints charlie on Instagram.
Elle Billing (33:38):
Great.
Charlie Reynolds (33:39):
And I also have a website,
charliereynoldsstudio.com
Elle Billing (33:46):
All right, I will put those in the show notes. So
that was at paintscharlie onInstagram and
charliereynoldsstudio.com
Charlie Reynolds (33:55):
Yes
Elle Billing (33:55):
Great. So everyone should go follow Charlie. Go
follow Charlie. I'm stumbling onmy words today too. I'd probably
need more coffee or less. Whoknows,
Charlie Reynolds (34:07):
I'm on my second cup.
Elle Billing (34:09):
I have to drink about the same amount every day
because of my migraines, becauseif I alter how much caffeine,
it's because it's avasoconstrictor. I just have a
very delicate brain.
Charlie Reynolds (34:22):
I can't have any hot coffee, so I can only
have ice. Oh,
Elle Billing (34:28):
is that a gastro thing?
Charlie Reynolds (34:31):
I can't I can't really stand like having
hot, hot coffee. It just, oh,that's one thing I've lost
that's too bad, just toointense. I
Elle Billing (34:43):
mean, I wouldn't mind in the summer so much, but
like in the winter, I wouldreally miss it.
Charlie Reynolds (34:47):
Yeah, I'm I'm that bitch that it's like three
degrees out, I'm getting like,an ice latte, and they're
looking at me like, What iswrong with you? And I'm like,
just don't worry about it.
Elle Billing (34:59):
You're like, it's okay. I'm gay.
Charlie Reynolds (35:02):
Yeah, I'm like, I'm just super gay. Don't
worry about it.
Elle Billing (35:05):
You're like, I'm the reason for the meme of
people.
Charlie Reynolds (35:10):
But I just, I can never handle it, like I
would just, I'll just, you know,just comes right back up. Just
too, too strong. I mean, becausemy my coffee is very, very
watered down. I mean, it's notreally coffee at that point.
Elle Billing (35:26):
And I grew up with farmer coffee, so when I make my
coffee in the morning, it's twoshots of espresso and just it's
not even an Americano. I don'teven add enough water for that.
Charlie Reynolds (35:36):
That's how my husband is. But I mean, I didn't
drink coffee until I was on theship. And it was just
desperation at that point,because they would have us up
all night. And then it was, itwas so cold that, like I was
like, I have to drink something.
Elle Billing (35:53):
Warm me up from the inside.
Charlie Reynolds (35:56):
And, I mean, they get gross about stuff too.
I mean, if you ever wash like achief's mug, they say, like, the
coffee is a flavor. So sometimesthey would try to, like, trick
the the youngest guy and belike, hey, go wash chief's mug.
And it's like, like a big sin,because the chiefs, like, try
(36:19):
to, like, keep, like a grimegoing in their mugs, and you
ruin it
Elle Billing (36:25):
like a cast iron pan. But worse,
Charlie Reynolds (36:27):
oh yeah, but worse, yeah, like you ruin the
flavor, and chiefs go crazy ifyou wash their mug. Wash their
mug, yeah? So they, every oncein a while look at somebody
Elle Billing (36:45):
like someone new, who doesn't know?
Charlie Reynolds (36:47):
yeah, because everybody does a rotation in the
chief's mess.
Elle Billing (36:52):
Gotcha
Charlie Reynolds (36:52):
I was in the officer mess, okay, which was
awful. I had a officer whistleat me like I was a dog. And so
the chef put his taco on thefloor and then served it to him.
Elle Billing (37:07):
You're gonna whistle like a dog, eat like
one.
Charlie Reynolds (37:10):
Yeah.
Elle Billing (37:11):
All right, we have one last question. So I'm
wondering, what is one truething that you have learned from
your creative practice?
Charlie Reynolds (37:20):
So I think my one true thing would be that,
you know, art doesn't have to belike a stay up all night, drink
five coffees in a row, likegrind, especially in art school,
there is so much pressure tocompete and to work harder than
the next person. It's definitelynot disability friendly. I've
(37:45):
had to shout for myself everystep of the way, but there has
to be space for people like us,artists that have to like rest
and take breaks, artists thathave to alter equipment. And
part of the reason why I decidedto pursue my masters was because
(38:06):
I didn't see people like me inthese spaces when I, like looked
around. So I decided to, like,make space. So I think that's my
one true thing is that, likedisabled people can make art,
and we should, and there's spacefor us there. And like, we don't
(38:29):
have to try to keep up or try todo the same thing as people that
can stay up all night and, like,put their bodies to the limit.
Just because they can do thatdoesn't mean that we should, or
that we should try to keep upwith that. You know, we can go
our own pace. We can take longeron projects, and that's fine.
(38:52):
And, I mean, it's taken me along time to learn that, and I
still have to remind myself
Elle Billing (38:57):
thank you for saying all that. That's perfect.
Yeah, that's all of that. Iresonate with that really
strongly. And I would add thateven the people who aren't
disabled like us, who couldconceivably push their bodies to
the limit and work all night,they don't have to. They can
(39:18):
rest too.
Charlie Reynolds (39:19):
I agree, and I think that, like, the less that
we push that kind of culture,the better it is for everybody.
I think so. I mean, when youinclude accommodations, it
affects everybody, not just thedisabled people in the room,
Elle Billing (39:38):
yep. Thank you so much for being here, I really
appreciate our conversation.
Charlie Reynolds (39:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
Elle Billing (39:44):
Yeah, this was fun. I hope you have a great
year.
Charlie Reynolds (39:48):
Thank you. I feel like we're friends already.
Elle Billing (39:50):
I think so too.
I'm so glad we connected.
Congrats on the award.
Charlie Reynolds (39:55):
Thanks you too.
Elle Billing (39:57):
I hope your... is it still like a thesis, or is it
more like a project or adissertation? When you do an
MFA,
Charlie Reynolds (40:04):
this would be a thesis
Elle Billing (40:06):
a thesis, all right. Well, I hope your thesis
and the boat and all of thatgoes really well for you.
Charlie Reynolds (40:12):
Thanks so much.
Elle Billing (40:13):
I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Charlie Reynolds (40:15):
I'll definitely keep in touch.
Elle Billing (40:19):
Thank you for joining us on this episode of
Hoorf. To get the complete shownotes and all the links
mentioned on today's episode, orto get a full transcript of the
episode, visit hoorfpodcast.comJoin the Blessed Herd of St
Winkus (40:33):
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(40:54):
If you become a patron for only$3 a month, you can support the
creation of this podcast. Helppay my editor and join a
community of caregivers outhere, just doing our best. Thank
you again for joining me, ElleBilling, the chronically ill
queer femme who is very tired,on this episode of Hoorf. until
next time, be excellent to eachother. Hoorf is hosted by Elle
(41:18):
Billing at elleandwink. Audioediting by Ricki Cummings at
rickiep00h, music composed byRicki Cummings. Hoorf is a
production of Elle & Wink ArtStudio, LLC, all rights
reserved. Hoorf can be found onall social media platforms. At
hoorf podcast, at H, O, O, R, F.
PodcastI'm the reason for the meme,
(41:45):
people.
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