July 22, 2025 • 45 mins
A phone call on Christmas morning 2020 brought heart shattering news she never could have imagined. On this episode, Mary McNamara talks with me about how one phone call forever altered her life that day. Her beautiful 28 year old son, Zack, had died during the night alone. We talk about the questions such a sudden, unexpected tragedy leaves a parent facing and trying to process. You'll also hear Mary talk about what a caring, sensitive, and funny young man Zack was as well as some of his struggles. With courage, transparency, and grace, Mary shares her own struggles along her grief journey and how her relationship with Jesus Christ has been her source of comfort and strength.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode
of the Hope After Child Losspodcast.
I'm Greg Bufkin, and on thisepisode, I'll be talking with
Mary McNamara.
In December of 2020, Mary losther son, Zach, due to asthma
complications.
So we'll be talking about hergrief journey over the past four
(00:21):
years, as well as how God hasbeen healing her broken heart
and making her somethingbeautiful out of all those
broken pieces again.
And now, here's my conversationwith Mary.
Well, Mary, welcome to ourpodcast today.
It is so good to have you, myguest, a couple of minutes at
(00:42):
the outset of our conversation,just to share a little bit of
anything personal that you wouldlike to share about your family,
about work, about where youlive, any of those things.
And then we'll just kind of diveinto your story.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
Thank you so much for having me Greg.
(01:26):
And he was born 21 months aftermy daughter Brittany was born.
And he was a smiley, sweet,kind, patient, sensitive, silly,
and very loving child.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
Sounds like somebody I would love to meet.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Aw, thank you.
When he was little, he lovedplaying with Matchbox cars.
And then when he got older, likemiddle school age, he started
playing with Matchbox.
He loved skateboarding androllerblading, and he loved to
take bicycles apart.
SPEAKER_00 (02:01):
Mary, I am amazed as I listen to you talk about Zach
and the things that he loved todo.
Our boys...
could have been fast friends,because all those things that
you were talking about arethings that our son Ryan loved.
And some of those descriptionsthat you gave of Zach, so many
(02:22):
of those describe Ryan as well.
I think that is just amazing.
I
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
love that.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Yeah, I can see it's written all over your face, what
a proud mom you are.
I
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
certainly am.
He was a talented guitar player.
He played acoustic, and...
the electric guitar, and thenwhen he was an adult, he loved
to play frisbee golf.
He taught my daughter Brittanyand I how to play it.
It's something that
SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
we
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
enjoy doing together.
I
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
have never played that before.
It sounds like it might be morefun than traditional golf.
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
It is.
It's less frustrating, too,because it's not as hard, so
it's way more low-key.
and relaxing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Mary, I know that there are a multitude of them,
but why don't you share one ofyour favorite stories about Zach
with everybody?
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
My favorite story about Zach is, and I wasn't
present with him, but he wasplaying frisbee golf once with
one of his friends and Zach madeit at the top of the hill before
his friend did.
And then when his friend got upto the top of the hill, Zach was
sitting in the Frisbee golfbasket.
(03:37):
And I'm so glad that his friendtook a picture of Zach sitting
in that basket.
And then after Zach got away,then he sent me the picture of
him and I just love that picturebecause he's got this grin on
his face and it's just such aZach face.
SPEAKER_00 (03:52):
He was one of those people that walked into a room
and it just lit up and heprobably, I'm guessing from what
it sounds like, he probably wassometimes often the center of
attention.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
Well, he actually wasn't.
No, when he was one-on-one, hewas very talkative.
But when he was in a crowd, hewas very quiet.
Yeah, he was kind of shy.
So when he was in a group ofpeople, he tended to just be
more of a listener than atalker.
(04:24):
And he usually was, well, andyou know, his friends sometimes
tell a different story, but fromhow I knew him, When there was a
group of people, he was prettyquiet.
I
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
believe that you told me from a previous
conversation that you and I hadthat he also loved doing
impersonations.
Yeah, what was your favorite?
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
He certainly did.
He did a Billy Bob or SlingBlade.
One other that he was reallygood at was...
Chip from...
Now
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
I can't remember.
It's okay.
It's okay.
Now I can't remember the movie.
But he loved entertaining peopleby doing impersonations.
Well, another thing that he andRyan had in common.
Oh, yeah.
Ryan loved doing impersonations,especially of Jim Carrey.
You know, I think it's kind ofa...
It goes without being said, but,you know, when we lose a child,
(05:15):
regardless of their age andregardless of how it happened...
You know, it really profoundlyaffects us as individuals.
As you look back over these pastfour years, how would you say
that losing Zach and the griefthat you have suffered through
has changed you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
would say the biggest change in me is that
I've become a more compassionateperson.
I feel so much more for somebodythat is suffering physically or
emotionally.
And when I meet somebody who haslost a loved one, especially a
child, it just saddens me somuch.
(05:58):
When it's a child, I just feelan instant bond and care and
concern for them.
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
And it just breaks my heart.
You
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
hear that a lot when you're talking with a parent
who's lost a child.
UNKNOWN (06:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
when they meet other bereaved parents, it's like
there's this instant bond.
It's hard to explain to somebodyelse, but I think it probably
has something to do with whenpeople have a shared trauma in
their life, You know, we hear ita lot from men and women who
were in combat with others whowere in close proximity that
(06:33):
they were in a firefight with orthey were in a campaign where
you really were close together.
You experienced a lot of serioustrauma and death together.
Sometimes it creates lifelongbonds.
So I think maybe that hassomething to do with it.
I don't know.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
I think so, because so many of the feelings that we
have are the same feelings thatanother bereaved parent has.
And no one really understandshow we feel as much as other
bereaved parents do.
I feel like we've all sufferedsome type of a level of PTSD.
(07:12):
And so maybe that's why, justbecause we You know, if we just
meet somebody, even if they knowus, I mean, actually, if we meet
somebody and we described ourfeelings, I don't think they'd
be able to really realize trulyhow we feel just by our words.
And even the people that know usvery well don't really
(07:33):
understand how we feel becauseyou don't you can't even imagine
what it's like.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Sometimes it's frustrating because you after we
after we suffer that loss, youknow, we don't want people to
forget that.
Our child, it becomes part ofour identity.
And, you know, you you wantpeople to understand what you're
going through.
But in another sense, wewouldn't want them to understand
(08:00):
what we're going through becauseit means you have to have
experienced it.
So, you know, it's kind of akind of a fine line to walk in
it.
You know, we we have to be whatI've learned.
And I'm sure you're stilllearning, too.
is that, you know, we have togive a lot of grace to other
people because sometimes theywill say things intending to
(08:22):
help and wanting to help us feelbetter.
And it actually ends upbackfiring.
And sometimes it can make usactually feel worse.
So we have to give a lot ofgrace.
Yes, we do.
Grace and space.
That's good.
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
I didn't make that up.
I can't remember where I heard.
But although I mean, some peoplefeel differently about this, but
For me, I would rather havesomebody say something that's
the wrong thing to say, just aslong as they weren't being
hurtful towards me.
Because I'd rather have someone,you know, at least communicating
(08:57):
with me about my grief or myloss, instead of avoiding me or
ignoring me or not even bringingup my feelings at all.
So I have really had to use alot of grace because I don't
even like to let people knowwhen they've hurt my feelings
because then I don't want themto not talk to me anymore or to
(09:18):
feel like they're or to havethem feel like they're walking.
SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I concur with you.
It would it would be better toerr on the side of sometimes
just showing up.
And if you don't know what tosay.
Just offer the gift of yourpresence.
And even silence is absolutelyfine sometimes.
If you don't know what to say,it's okay not to say anything.
(09:41):
And if we want to talk, we'lltalk.
But if we don't, just, you know,don't take it personally if
you're that other person.
Because it's not about you.
It's not, you know, we're upsetwith you because you came.
Most of us are absolutelythankful and thrilled that you
cared enough to show up.
(10:01):
We're not a project that youneed to try to fix.
There aren't any words that arereally going to help that much.
And honestly, I don't know aboutyou, Mary, but those first few
weeks, chances are you're notgoing to remember much of what
anybody said anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Definitely.
I don't really even remembermuch of my very first year.
When we...
have people that come to us andare just silent, but just being
there, either listening to us orjust sitting beside us, I think
that seems to be the mosthelpful.
We just need to have them tofeel like they are thinking of
(10:41):
us, that they love us, that theycare for us, and just being
present with us.
And I've often told other peoplethat even if they go to
somebody, that they should nevergive them to give them advice or
or even talk about bible versesin the beginning because that
(11:01):
person if they're a newlybereaved person they don't want
to hear that type of thing theycan't comprehend that and i
think that's going to turn themoff more than than just just you
being there
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
we know that the support that you're referring to
often comes in a variety offorms I don't know about in
Indiana, but in the South,anytime something like that
happens, Southerners show upwith food, comfort food and lots
of it.
Sometimes there's no room tokeep all that you couldn't eat.
(11:35):
And there's other forms too.
I would just, I just want to askyou from your own personal
experience, what was the kind ofsupport that really meant the
most to you that helped you themost?
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
I think the people, okay.
So my son passed away Decemberof 2020.
It was kind of thick into theCOVID time.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, and we here in NorthwestIndiana weren't doing a whole
lot.
Most of the businesses wereclosed.
(12:08):
The schools were closed.
Oh, wait a minute.
I think the schools were openedback up again by then.
SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
A lot of things were closed, for
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
sure.
And then after my son passedaway...
I was kind of like more, evenusing that more of an excuse.
And we weren't socializing atthat time because of COVID
still, because, you know, wedidn't know.
We didn't really know much aboutCOVID back then.
But I think the things thathelped me the most was the
(12:38):
podcasts, listening to thepodcasts, because I started
learning, listening to thoseearly on.
I don't have a lot of family,except for my family in this
area.
But I did have friends thatstopped over, which was very
nice.
And I really appreciated that.
I appreciated Zach's friendsreaching out to me and wanting
(13:01):
to meet me over at the cemeteryto talk about him, which was
really nice.
I ended up having, well, Ishouldn't say having to.
I got to.
I was blessed to be able towrite 150 thank yous.
People that shown me so much, somany different, you know, you
(13:24):
know, it was from meals or giftsthat they had sent in the mail
or broad or gift cards.
It was amazing how many people,not only my friends and
acquaintances, but some thatwere total strangers.
And it was so beautiful howthose people thought of me, not
only at that time, butthroughout the first year and
(13:47):
still to this day.
And it's just amazing how Jesusworks for people.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
And it does mean so much.
You know, you were talking abouthow so many of Zach's friends
reached out to you.
You know, I can remember thathappening with Kathy and me
after we lost Ryan.
And boy, I'll tell you, thosefriends have no idea.
how much that meant because wefelt like that was another piece
of Ryan because he was friendswith these people and they loved
(14:18):
him enough that they cared aboutus and reached out to us.
Man, it just thrilled our heartsto see that kind of love and
compassion towards him and thentowards us.
SPEAKER_01 (14:31):
Yes, yes.
And it amazed me how some ofthese kids in their late 20s and
early 30s just fell apart overat the cemetery when I met up
with them.
And how, you know, it was, Idon't know, it just, to see a
grown young man cry like that,it was, I mean, I just...
(14:55):
I felt so bad for them, but thenalso it made me feel so good
inside knowing that someoneloved my son that deeply.
It was just amazing.
And these kids showed up at thecemetery for his first birthday
a month after Zach's deathbecause he turned 27 the
(15:17):
following, well, January 27th.
And then there were like 15 ofthem there.
And my daughter and I both wentand joined all of them that
night.
And it was so nice because theytold so many Zach stories.
My daughter and I never heard,even though she hung around some
of the same kids that Zach wasfriends with.
(15:39):
It was fun, you know, to listento all the things that they had
to talk about.
It was really, it was really, itwas really fun.
And also it made me so much moreproud because they all Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:14):
And maybe sometimes they become closer than family.
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
I think that's
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
how it goes.
Yeah.
Yes, I agree.
And isn't it cool to hear stufflike that, you know, that you've
never heard before?
And it's, you know, when youheard those things about Zach
that his friend shared, it gaveyou some joy right there in the
middle of your grief.
I'm guessing you were able, fromyour response, you were able to
laugh for a few minutes and justthink of all the the incredible
(16:42):
things about Zach's life,because you're so overwhelmed
with their death and the sadnessof it all for so long.
It's such a relief when you canactually laugh again.
And it's something that you canlaugh about regarding your child
and probably something you wouldlaugh about in his presence and
(17:03):
that probably he would havelaughed about.
SPEAKER_01 (17:05):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think God allows usnumbness to gradually, I mean,
in the beginning it's awful, butI think God numbs our pain and,
you know, from time to timeallows us not to feel the pain
on a continuous basis.
Just, I don't know, just, Ithink it's, well, I think it's
(17:28):
the shock, but I think Godallows us to have that shock so
that we can not have to be downin that valley forever.
The whole time.
That's really, I mean, that joythat we're feeling.
Absolutely.
That's given to us by God.
And all of those people thatloved our boys, when they're
helping us through that, God isin them, allowing their love to
(17:53):
come.
Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
What are some of the things or what's something?
I mean, that's one thing thatyou just shared.
But sometimes when we go throughsomething so painful, just
unspeakable.
I don't know of a better word todescribe losing a child.
If we have a relationship withGod already, when we go through
(18:16):
things like that, if we leaninto Him instead of running
away, because sometimes we,let's face it, when things like
that happen, we get angry withGod because we think either, how
could you let this happen?
Why did you cause this tohappen?
And the questions just go on andon and on.
But when we realize, you know,that it broke God's heart too
(18:39):
when Zach died.
And God was right there with youguys in the middle of all of
that.
And I'm guessing that youprobably knew so many things
about him through yourrelationship with him for years,
Mary.
Is there anything that youlearned about God over these
(19:01):
past four years that you didn'tknow?
before losing Zach.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
Yes.
I have always believed that Godis a source of comfort, love,
and peace.
But since Zach's passing, I havenot only believed that, but I've
also physically felt God'scomfort, love, and peace.
(19:26):
Three days after Zach passedaway, So it was December 28th of
2020.
When I woke up in the morning,my husband was reading his
morning devotion.
And I leaned over his shoulderand looked to see what his
devotion was for that morning.
And it was Psalm 147, verse 3.
(19:48):
He heals the brokenhearted andbinds up their wounds.
And I read the devotion and ittalked about how brokenness is
is a reality and makes you feelpowerless to do anything.
But God blesses us with hisoverflowing comfort and helps us
in our healing from heartacheand pain.
So when I read that, I felt likeit was written for me.
(20:11):
And then my husband realized theeffect it had on me.
So he suggested that I listen toBarn 45, which was a morning
Bible study that I had listenedto every morning, Monday through
Friday, on Facebook Live, andit's also on YouTube.
So I watched it that morning,and the specific Bible study
that they had on that morningwas Psalm 23, The Lord is My
(20:34):
Shepherd.
They talked about how a shepherdis a guardian and protector, all
that the sheep need.
A shepherd gives the sheepbreast, and he leads the sheep,
just like God is our guardianand protector.
all that we need, give us rest,and he leads us.
Again, I felt like thishour-long Bible study was
(20:59):
created just for me.
They talked about how you mayhave never been in this level of
alone before, but Jesus is ourshepherd and will guide us no
matter what horriblecircumstances you're going
through right now, and thatJesus, with his staff, can help
to pull us out of that deep,dark pit.
(21:23):
And I felt God's peace,presence, and love.
It was amazing.
That was the first time in mylife I had ever felt that.
And then I knew that God wasgoing to be able to get me
through this.
And I might not continuouslyfeel His presence, love, and
(21:43):
peace, but at least...
I knew that it was possible.
And I also learned what it waslike to lament and that it was
okay
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
to lament.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And this is three days after youlost Zach.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yes.
Yes.
That was the 28th, just threedays later.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
And for those of you who are listening and you maybe
didn't catch it, Mary lost Zachon Christmas Day of 2020.
And You know, I want us to goback and talk a little bit about
what led up to that.
But before we do, I know thereare people that are listening
that struggle with differentcelebrations that are part of
(22:29):
our lives throughout the year.
Traditions, Christmas,Thanksgiving, our children's
birthdays.
And You know, the list goes on.
I can't imagine what that did toyour, I guess, your ability to
participate in and to be able toenjoy Christmas going forward
like you had previously in yourlife.
(22:51):
How have you guys handled that?
I mean, how have you navigatedall of
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
that?
Well, the very first year, Icouldn't.
listen to Christmas music atall.
Well, actually, I think it wasfor the first three years.
And if I was in a store, I hadto leave if there was any
Christmas music on.
So that pretty much eliminates,you know, going to a store
between Thanksgiving andChristmas.
(23:16):
And it's the most wonderful timeof the year.
I still do not like that song.
Yeah, it was really difficult.
The very first year, I had zerodesire to put up our tree.
Yeah, sure.
(23:50):
And I don't even remember if Iparticipated in any of that.
Knowing me, I at least movedornaments around on the tree
where I thought they shouldlook.
So we've always had notcelebrated Christmas on the
actual day because we've alwaysdone it on a day other than
Christmas because we've allowedour kids to be with their
(24:13):
significant others on ChristmasDay.
So that is a blessing for us.
Yes.
The very first year we went, weall went over to the cemetery,
though, for a couple of hours,took some chairs, went over
there, talked about Zach, andhad a toast to him.
And then the kids all went totheir significant others.
SPEAKER_00 (24:33):
I ask you that because people that haven't
experienced what we have, itdoesn't really occur to them
that, you know, there is anentire year of of experiencing
firsts.
You know, first Christmaswithout our child, first
birthday without our child, andso many others.
(24:55):
And those can be really hard tonavigate.
Sometimes the anticipation ofthat day arriving can actually
be more difficult than the dayitself.
Do you agree with that?
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
I do.
I always have more anxiety theday before a holiday than on the
actual day.
I just read it the day beforeand especially the night before.
I have a very hard time fallingasleep the night before because
even anticipating seeing thatdate on my phone, I don't
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
like.
I understand that.
And I'm sure that probably allof our listeners do as well.
Mary, I said a minute ago that Iwanted us to come back to that,
to come back to something.
And that something is, you know,I want us to step back in time
four years, because at theoutset, when I was welcoming our
(25:50):
guests, I mentioned that youguys lost Zach due to
complications of asthma.
And, you know, that may be a bitbaffling to some people, you
know, in today's society.
world of medicine when we haveso many things that make
people's lives so much easierand that are life-saving.
(26:11):
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about what led up to that?
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
Okay, so Zach had asthma since he was about five
or six years old.
He usually had it when he had acold or if he used bleach
products or if he was outdisking and it had rained a lot
and there were a high level ofmold out in the woods where he
was disking.
(26:36):
But so...
I am unaware that he was sick.
I know he had been sick aroundHalloween time of 2020 because
he had to go into a walk-inclinic and they had to give him
oxygen and And they had to givehim a nebulizer treatment.
(26:57):
So I knew two months prior thathe had suffered with
SPEAKER_00 (27:02):
his asthma.
I didn't mean to interrupt, butjust for perspective, was Zach
living independently of you guysat this point?
SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
He was.
He was living down in Rockwell,Texas.
Oh, and I was asking him, like,after I knew that he had to go
into that walk-in clinic,Halloween of 2020, I kept asking
him, you know, how are you?
Are you okay?
Are you okay?
Yeah, mom.
Yeah, mom.
Well, then, you know, byChristmas, I mean, that only
(27:30):
lasted like a couple of weeks.
So then when I received thatphone call on December 2020, I
was unaware that he had beensick.
And the call was from hisfather.
And he and I had gotten divorcedback in 2006.
And his dad was living downthere and Zach had moved down
(27:52):
there a couple years prior tosee if he could have a closer
relationship with his dadbecause his dad had moved down
there while Zach was in middleschool.
So his dad found him in hisapartment, deceased.
Zach was sitting in a sittingposition on his couch.
(28:13):
And when someone is sufferingfrom asthma symptoms, If they
are either standing or sittingor even elevated, like laying
down elevated, it helps to keeptheir airways opened.
Because when they're lying flat,it sometimes causes fluids to
pool in their airways, whichmakes their breathing more
(28:34):
difficult.
And also asthma causesinflammation and it constricts
airways.
Right.
Right.
Right.
(29:04):
confusion, drowsiness, fatigue,and also a lack of
consciousness.
So with that continuous decreasein low blood oxygen levels,
somebody can pass away in aslittle
SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
as four to six minutes.
Did Zach have a rescue inhaler?
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
He did not have a rescue inhaler at that time, but
he did have a nebulizer.
So when his dad walked into hisapartment, his nebulizer machine
was still running, but themedicine mist had already come
out of the mouthpiece and Zachhad already inhaled it.
(29:46):
And I'm not sure.
Sometimes Zach had to use twobreathing treatments.
And I'm not sure if he used oneor two.
I didn't ask his dad about that.
So I'm not really sure aboutthat.
But his dad did say that hisnebulizer machine was still
running.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
It had just run out of the medication that was in
it.
Gosh.
And he was how old?
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
26.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
So young.
SPEAKER_01 (30:10):
Yes, so young.
And I think, you know, becauseof that, Confusion, drowsiness,
the loss of consciousness.
I think that's why he may havebeen, you know, unaware of the
severity of his situation.
Yeah.
And his need to call 911.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Well, Mary, you know, we've talked a lot about
how grief impacted you.
And we've talked a little ofwhat that grief journey is like.
But I know that there are othermoms, maybe dads listening
today, too, that are earlier.
in their grief journey, like youwere four years ago, three years
(30:47):
ago.
And they may be wondering, isthis what life is going to be
like going forward?
Is this the best that I canexpect?
Am I always going to bestruggling with such difficulty
with my emotions and with griefbrain and just feeling so alone
(31:10):
and isolated?
Let's talk about what that griefjourney is like now in 2025, and
some things that you've donethat have helped get you to the
place where you are now.
I know that from ourconversations previously and
today, that I know that youwould point to your relationship
(31:31):
with the Lord as being yourfoundation for that healing
process.
Is there anything else that thatyou would share to offer some
hope and encouragement to thosethat are listening?
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Yes.
I have gotten so much helpthrough being in bereaved parent
support groups.
also listening to worship music,participating in ongoing Bible
book studies.
I belong to a virtual mothersupport group through Starlight
Ministries out of Grand Rapids,Michigan, which we meet once a
(32:09):
week, and I don't know what Iwould do.
SPEAKER_00 (32:11):
Is that Marcy Larson's part of her ministry?
SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
It is.
It is Marcy's.
And she does the Always Andy'sMom podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
Yeah, actually, Andy's
SPEAKER_01 (32:23):
Mom.
SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
Both Marcy and her husband, Eric, were guests on
our podcast back, I don't know,a year and a half or so ago.
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
Yes, yes.
And, you know, when I listenedto your podcast and I heard
Marcy and Peter, is it?
SPEAKER_00 (32:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
Oh, Peter's her other son.
When I listened to them and shetalked about Starlight
Ministries, I was like, I wrotethat down and then I listened to
the remaining podcast with her.
And then the next day I emailedStarlight Ministries.
2024, which I actually listenedto it, but you had recorded it.
That's right.
Maybe in 23.
(33:00):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
she has a great podcast.
I would encourage anybody whowould like to check out that
podcast to do so because, youknow, Marcy and her husband
experienced the loss of a youngchild and she and her husband
both are physicians.
So it's a great podcast, anothergreat source of hope and
encouragement.
SPEAKER_01 (33:20):
Yes, yes.
Yours and hers.
And while we're waiting, got methrough every night.
For three years, I listened tothose.
And I mean, those aren't foreverybody.
I know some people, especiallyearly in grief, have a difficult
time.
But for me, and for a lot ofpeople that I know, they're so
(33:41):
comforting.
By listening to those peoplethat you interview, we can
realize that how we can recover,we can get through this, we can
survive it.
There is hope.
that we can get through theworst.
SPEAKER_00 (33:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I want to touch on this andI hope you'll display your good
sense of humor.
When I initially contacted youabout sharing your story, you
were hesitant.
And I understand that becausethat was probably almost a year
ago.
And I get that.
I probably couldn't have done itat that stage of grief, of our
(34:23):
grief journey.
It wasn't, I don't know, maybeseveral months later when you
discovered Marcy's podcast, yougot an invitation from her.
And you just, I remember youfelt so inadequate.
You shared that with me, thatyou felt inadequate about
sharing your story.
You worried about a lot ofdifferent things, but you prayed
about it.
And, you know, I'm so proud ofyou, as I know that Marcy is
(34:44):
too, that you allowed God To useyour pain and the difficulty and
the challenge of being willingto open up to in a public arena,
as it were, on a podcast topeople that you didn't know.
And you stepped out in faith andyou displayed a lot of courage
and you shared your story.
(35:06):
And I listened to that podcastthat you did with Marcy.
I would have never, ever thoughtthat you felt any pain.
anxiety or nervousness aboutsharing your story.
And I say that to encourageother people, because here you
are doing it again.
And I think it's so importantbecause as you said a minute
ago, I think we connect at aheart level when we share, when
(35:31):
people hear a story, they'rehearing that another parent
who's been through what I'vebeen through is actually talking
about it.
You connect at a level that youcouldn't connect with
information about grief orinformation about loss and how
you survive all of that.
So I would encourage you ifyou're listening and you haven't
(35:55):
had the opportunity to do that,when you have an opportunity to
share your story, step out infaith and share it because you
have no idea what difference youmight make in the life of of
another bereaved parent.
What would you say about that,Mary?
SPEAKER_01 (36:12):
I agree so much.
And I, you know, with Marcy, Ithink I may have felt, well, and
also I had told you, I don'tknow if you remember this when
you had contacted me initially,that I, that Marcy, I, she had
already, you know, I was in her,well, yeah, I was in her group.
So I had already said, and Ifelt, you know, An obligation to
(36:35):
Marcy because she had said toour group, if anybody wants to
get on the podcast, and I said,okay, when I'm ready.
But yes, I felt like if I reacheven one person and help one
person out there with anythingthat I have to say, it's worth
it.
And there might be somebody outthere that doesn't know about,
(36:59):
you know, the StarlightMinistries or while we're
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
waiting.
Yes, that is Jill and BradSullivan.
Yep.
It is a great podcast.
Great resource.
SPEAKER_01 (37:11):
Yes.
And they have retreats and theyhave a Facebook group and Our
Hearts Are Home with Gary andLaura House.
They also have a podcast now.
They just started it about 15months ago, I think.
And they have a ministry withbook studies and conferences
twice a year.
And they have a grandparentsgroup and a siblings group.
(37:36):
And I mean, they just have alot.
And if somebody were to get onOur Hearts Are Home, they could
find all of the wonderful thingsthat are available through
there.
They have an ongoing book study,I think, all the time.
Right now we're doing...
with Vinita Reisner, Desperatefor Hope, which
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
I know you had on your podcast.
She's a sweet lady.
SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
She's gone through a lot of suffering.
The thing that I would say thathelped me, oh, another thing,
reading a blog written byMelanie DeSimone has really
helped me.
Sermons that I have listened toabout grief, loss, and sorrow by
pastors Greg Laurie, Levi Luskoand for all.
SPEAKER_00 (38:25):
That's important, too.
I'm glad that you said that,Mary, because sometimes the
focus can sometimes seems likeit primarily for moms.
But, you know, dads strugglewith grief as well.
And I think that has has beenchanging over the years.
I think more men are stepping upand sharing their stories and
(38:45):
opening up to talk about it,which is very important in the
healing processes.
Once we start.
talking about it, sharing ourstory, whether it's one-on-one
or in a group or on a podcast,however it is, it really helps
tremendously to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
Yes.
And I just listened to your mostrecent, your two most recent
podcasts, and it was sointeresting to hear the
different perspectives of thewife
SPEAKER_00 (39:12):
and then the
SPEAKER_01 (39:13):
mother and then the father.
SPEAKER_00 (39:15):
Because we grieve differently as individuals, but
we grieve very differently asmen and women, so differently as
moms and dads.
And it's important to be able torespect how our mate is
grieving.
And if they don't grieve like wedo, that's okay.
It's not that that one of you isright and the other is wrong.
(39:37):
It's just different.
And as we know, there is noright or wrong way to grieve.
SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
Yeah.
That reminds me, I, I like totell newly bereaved parents that
whatever, however they grieveand whatever decision they make
is the right decision becauseit's their grief journey.
And yeah, They should never feelpressured to do anything that
(40:05):
someone thinks that they shoulddo.
SPEAKER_00 (40:07):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think that is very important.
Don't let anybody else tell youhow you should be grieving.
That is your personal griefjourney.
Now, there certainly are healthyand unhealthy ways to grieve.
And when it starts, maybe ifthere are signs that you are
moving in an unhealthy directionor you feel like maybe your mate
(40:32):
is stuck, that may be what isknown as prolonged grief
disorder.
And that may need the help fromeither a counselor or a medical
professional, maybe interventionwith antidepressants or some
sort of therapy.
And there's no weakness in that.
Yes, definitely.
(40:52):
There's wisdom and there isstrength in knowing when you
need help and are willing to getit.
SPEAKER_01 (40:59):
Yes, I agree.
No one should ever feel bad orembarrassed about having to get
on antidepressants because
SPEAKER_00 (41:07):
they help a lot of people.
I'll be the first to say thatsix months after we lost Ryan, I
started an antidepressant andhave been on and off of them at
various times over the pastalmost 10 years.
SPEAKER_01 (41:23):
Yes, I just went on one.
And here I am four years into mygrief journey.
I just went on one the end ofJanuary.
But along with my grief, I had abroken foot and I had depression
from being immobile on top of mygrief.
SPEAKER_00 (41:42):
Like Mary just said, there is no shame in and needing
help and asking for it whetherit be through a medication or
counseling or something else.
Mary, it has been such a treatto have you on our podcast
today.
I know that there is somebodylistening today that you will
(42:03):
have had an impact on as theyhear you share about your
journey over the past four yearsand what God's done in the
healing process and how you'vehandled some of those challenges
that you've faced.
And I just, for one, want to saythank you again for being so
transparent and honest aboutwhat you've experienced.
(42:25):
And I want to just say I applaudyour courage.
for opening up to people,literally, maybe in another
country who are listening today,who needed to hear exactly what
you shared.
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_01 (42:40):
Thank you so much, Greg.
It's been such an honor, such anhonor.
And I do want to, I just want tomention one thing very quickly.
My grief brain remembered thename of the movie that Zach
imitated Chip on.
SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
I remember we talked about that in our conversation a
few weeks ago.
And And that was a hilariousmovie, I suppose, if you were 15
years old, because my son anddaughter loved that movie.
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
Maybe.
SPEAKER_00 (43:09):
Maybe.
Well, I'm glad you rememberedthat.
Well, Mary, thank you again.
You have been a blessing.
SPEAKER_01 (43:17):
As have you, Greg.
Thank you so, so much.
And thank you so much forreaching so many hurting
SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
hearts through your podcast.
We give all the credit to theLord.
And from my perspective, it isabsolutely a privilege.
SPEAKER_01 (43:30):
Thank
SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
you.
Well, hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode
of the Hope After Child Losspodcast.
I'm Greg Bufkin, and on thisepisode, I'll be talking with
Mary McNamara.
In December of 2020, Mary losther son, Zach, due to asthma
complications.
So we'll be talking about hergrief journey over the past four
(00:21):
years, as well as how God hasbeen healing her broken heart
and making her somethingbeautiful out of all those
broken pieces again.
And now, here's my conversationwith Mary.
Well, Mary, welcome to ourpodcast today.
It is so good to have you, myguest, a couple of minutes at
(00:42):
the outset of our conversation,just to share a little bit of
anything personal that you wouldlike to share about your family,
about work, about where youlive, any of those things.
And then we'll just kind of diveinto your story.
SPEAKER_01 (00:56):
Thank you so much for having me Greg.
(01:26):
And he was born 21 months aftermy daughter Brittany was born.
And he was a smiley, sweet,kind, patient, sensitive, silly,
and very loving child.
SPEAKER_00 (01:43):
Sounds like somebody I would love to meet.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Aw, thank you.
When he was little, he lovedplaying with Matchbox cars.
And then when he got older, likemiddle school age, he started
playing with Matchbox.
He loved skateboarding androllerblading, and he loved to
take bicycles apart.
SPEAKER_00 (02:01):
Mary, I am amazed as I listen to you talk about Zach
and the things that he loved todo.
Our boys...
could have been fast friends,because all those things that
you were talking about arethings that our son Ryan loved.
And some of those descriptionsthat you gave of Zach, so many
(02:22):
of those describe Ryan as well.
I think that is just amazing.
I
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
love that.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Yeah, I can see it's written all over your face, what
a proud mom you are.
I
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
certainly am.
He was a talented guitar player.
He played acoustic, and...
the electric guitar, and thenwhen he was an adult, he loved
to play frisbee golf.
He taught my daughter Brittanyand I how to play it.
It's something that
SPEAKER_00 (02:49):
we
SPEAKER_01 (02:50):
enjoy doing together.
I
SPEAKER_00 (02:52):
have never played that before.
It sounds like it might be morefun than traditional golf.
SPEAKER_01 (02:57):
It is.
It's less frustrating, too,because it's not as hard, so
it's way more low-key.
and relaxing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Mary, I know that there are a multitude of them,
but why don't you share one ofyour favorite stories about Zach
with everybody?
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
My favorite story about Zach is, and I wasn't
present with him, but he wasplaying frisbee golf once with
one of his friends and Zach madeit at the top of the hill before
his friend did.
And then when his friend got upto the top of the hill, Zach was
sitting in the Frisbee golfbasket.
(03:37):
And I'm so glad that his friendtook a picture of Zach sitting
in that basket.
And then after Zach got away,then he sent me the picture of
him and I just love that picturebecause he's got this grin on
his face and it's just such aZach face.
SPEAKER_00 (03:52):
He was one of those people that walked into a room
and it just lit up and heprobably, I'm guessing from what
it sounds like, he probably wassometimes often the center of
attention.
SPEAKER_01 (04:03):
Well, he actually wasn't.
No, when he was one-on-one, hewas very talkative.
But when he was in a crowd, hewas very quiet.
Yeah, he was kind of shy.
So when he was in a group ofpeople, he tended to just be
more of a listener than atalker.
(04:24):
And he usually was, well, andyou know, his friends sometimes
tell a different story, but fromhow I knew him, When there was a
group of people, he was prettyquiet.
I
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
believe that you told me from a previous
conversation that you and I hadthat he also loved doing
impersonations.
Yeah, what was your favorite?
SPEAKER_01 (04:44):
He certainly did.
He did a Billy Bob or SlingBlade.
One other that he was reallygood at was...
Chip from...
Now
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
I can't remember.
It's okay.
It's okay.
Now I can't remember the movie.
But he loved entertaining peopleby doing impersonations.
Well, another thing that he andRyan had in common.
Oh, yeah.
Ryan loved doing impersonations,especially of Jim Carrey.
You know, I think it's kind ofa...
It goes without being said, but,you know, when we lose a child,
(05:15):
regardless of their age andregardless of how it happened...
You know, it really profoundlyaffects us as individuals.
As you look back over these pastfour years, how would you say
that losing Zach and the griefthat you have suffered through
has changed you?
I
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
would say the biggest change in me is that
I've become a more compassionateperson.
I feel so much more for somebodythat is suffering physically or
emotionally.
And when I meet somebody who haslost a loved one, especially a
child, it just saddens me somuch.
(05:58):
When it's a child, I just feelan instant bond and care and
concern for them.
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
And it just breaks my heart.
You
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
hear that a lot when you're talking with a parent
who's lost a child.
UNKNOWN (06:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
when they meet other bereaved parents, it's like
there's this instant bond.
It's hard to explain to somebodyelse, but I think it probably
has something to do with whenpeople have a shared trauma in
their life, You know, we hear ita lot from men and women who
were in combat with others whowere in close proximity that
(06:33):
they were in a firefight with orthey were in a campaign where
you really were close together.
You experienced a lot of serioustrauma and death together.
Sometimes it creates lifelongbonds.
So I think maybe that hassomething to do with it.
I don't know.
What do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
I think so, because so many of the feelings that we
have are the same feelings thatanother bereaved parent has.
And no one really understandshow we feel as much as other
bereaved parents do.
I feel like we've all sufferedsome type of a level of PTSD.
(07:12):
And so maybe that's why, justbecause we You know, if we just
meet somebody, even if they knowus, I mean, actually, if we meet
somebody and we described ourfeelings, I don't think they'd
be able to really realize trulyhow we feel just by our words.
And even the people that know usvery well don't really
(07:33):
understand how we feel becauseyou don't you can't even imagine
what it's like.
SPEAKER_00 (07:39):
Sometimes it's frustrating because you after we
after we suffer that loss, youknow, we don't want people to
forget that.
Our child, it becomes part ofour identity.
And, you know, you you wantpeople to understand what you're
going through.
But in another sense, wewouldn't want them to understand
(08:00):
what we're going through becauseit means you have to have
experienced it.
So, you know, it's kind of akind of a fine line to walk in
it.
You know, we we have to be whatI've learned.
And I'm sure you're stilllearning, too.
is that, you know, we have togive a lot of grace to other
people because sometimes theywill say things intending to
(08:22):
help and wanting to help us feelbetter.
And it actually ends upbackfiring.
And sometimes it can make usactually feel worse.
So we have to give a lot ofgrace.
Yes, we do.
Grace and space.
That's good.
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
I didn't make that up.
I can't remember where I heard.
But although I mean, some peoplefeel differently about this, but
For me, I would rather havesomebody say something that's
the wrong thing to say, just aslong as they weren't being
hurtful towards me.
Because I'd rather have someone,you know, at least communicating
(08:57):
with me about my grief or myloss, instead of avoiding me or
ignoring me or not even bringingup my feelings at all.
So I have really had to use alot of grace because I don't
even like to let people knowwhen they've hurt my feelings
because then I don't want themto not talk to me anymore or to
(09:18):
feel like they're or to havethem feel like they're walking.
SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I concur with you.
It would it would be better toerr on the side of sometimes
just showing up.
And if you don't know what tosay.
Just offer the gift of yourpresence.
And even silence is absolutelyfine sometimes.
If you don't know what to say,it's okay not to say anything.
(09:41):
And if we want to talk, we'lltalk.
But if we don't, just, you know,don't take it personally if
you're that other person.
Because it's not about you.
It's not, you know, we're upsetwith you because you came.
Most of us are absolutelythankful and thrilled that you
cared enough to show up.
(10:01):
We're not a project that youneed to try to fix.
There aren't any words that arereally going to help that much.
And honestly, I don't know aboutyou, Mary, but those first few
weeks, chances are you're notgoing to remember much of what
anybody said anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (10:18):
Definitely.
I don't really even remembermuch of my very first year.
When we...
have people that come to us andare just silent, but just being
there, either listening to us orjust sitting beside us, I think
that seems to be the mosthelpful.
We just need to have them tofeel like they are thinking of
(10:41):
us, that they love us, that theycare for us, and just being
present with us.
And I've often told other peoplethat even if they go to
somebody, that they should nevergive them to give them advice or
or even talk about bible versesin the beginning because that
(11:01):
person if they're a newlybereaved person they don't want
to hear that type of thing theycan't comprehend that and i
think that's going to turn themoff more than than just just you
being there
SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
we know that the support that you're referring to
often comes in a variety offorms I don't know about in
Indiana, but in the South,anytime something like that
happens, Southerners show upwith food, comfort food and lots
of it.
Sometimes there's no room tokeep all that you couldn't eat.
(11:35):
And there's other forms too.
I would just, I just want to askyou from your own personal
experience, what was the kind ofsupport that really meant the
most to you that helped you themost?
SPEAKER_01 (11:48):
I think the people, okay.
So my son passed away Decemberof 2020.
It was kind of thick into theCOVID time.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, and we here in NorthwestIndiana weren't doing a whole
lot.
Most of the businesses wereclosed.
(12:08):
The schools were closed.
Oh, wait a minute.
I think the schools were openedback up again by then.
SPEAKER_00 (12:13):
A lot of things were closed, for
SPEAKER_01 (12:15):
sure.
And then after my son passedaway...
I was kind of like more, evenusing that more of an excuse.
And we weren't socializing atthat time because of COVID
still, because, you know, wedidn't know.
We didn't really know much aboutCOVID back then.
But I think the things thathelped me the most was the
(12:38):
podcasts, listening to thepodcasts, because I started
learning, listening to thoseearly on.
I don't have a lot of family,except for my family in this
area.
But I did have friends thatstopped over, which was very
nice.
And I really appreciated that.
I appreciated Zach's friendsreaching out to me and wanting
(13:01):
to meet me over at the cemeteryto talk about him, which was
really nice.
I ended up having, well, Ishouldn't say having to.
I got to.
I was blessed to be able towrite 150 thank yous.
People that shown me so much, somany different, you know, you
(13:24):
know, it was from meals or giftsthat they had sent in the mail
or broad or gift cards.
It was amazing how many people,not only my friends and
acquaintances, but some thatwere total strangers.
And it was so beautiful howthose people thought of me, not
only at that time, butthroughout the first year and
(13:47):
still to this day.
And it's just amazing how Jesusworks for people.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:55):
And it does mean so much.
You know, you were talking abouthow so many of Zach's friends
reached out to you.
You know, I can remember thathappening with Kathy and me
after we lost Ryan.
And boy, I'll tell you, thosefriends have no idea.
how much that meant because wefelt like that was another piece
of Ryan because he was friendswith these people and they loved
(14:18):
him enough that they cared aboutus and reached out to us.
Man, it just thrilled our heartsto see that kind of love and
compassion towards him and thentowards us.
SPEAKER_01 (14:31):
Yes, yes.
And it amazed me how some ofthese kids in their late 20s and
early 30s just fell apart overat the cemetery when I met up
with them.
And how, you know, it was, Idon't know, it just, to see a
grown young man cry like that,it was, I mean, I just...
(14:55):
I felt so bad for them, but thenalso it made me feel so good
inside knowing that someoneloved my son that deeply.
It was just amazing.
And these kids showed up at thecemetery for his first birthday
a month after Zach's deathbecause he turned 27 the
(15:17):
following, well, January 27th.
And then there were like 15 ofthem there.
And my daughter and I both wentand joined all of them that
night.
And it was so nice because theytold so many Zach stories.
My daughter and I never heard,even though she hung around some
of the same kids that Zach wasfriends with.
(15:39):
It was fun, you know, to listento all the things that they had
to talk about.
It was really, it was really, itwas really fun.
And also it made me so much moreproud because they all Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:14):
And maybe sometimes they become closer than family.
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
I think that's
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
how it goes.
Yeah.
Yes, I agree.
And isn't it cool to hear stufflike that, you know, that you've
never heard before?
And it's, you know, when youheard those things about Zach
that his friend shared, it gaveyou some joy right there in the
middle of your grief.
I'm guessing you were able, fromyour response, you were able to
laugh for a few minutes and justthink of all the the incredible
(16:42):
things about Zach's life,because you're so overwhelmed
with their death and the sadnessof it all for so long.
It's such a relief when you canactually laugh again.
And it's something that you canlaugh about regarding your child
and probably something you wouldlaugh about in his presence and
(17:03):
that probably he would havelaughed about.
SPEAKER_01 (17:05):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think God allows usnumbness to gradually, I mean,
in the beginning it's awful, butI think God numbs our pain and,
you know, from time to timeallows us not to feel the pain
on a continuous basis.
Just, I don't know, just, Ithink it's, well, I think it's
(17:28):
the shock, but I think Godallows us to have that shock so
that we can not have to be downin that valley forever.
The whole time.
That's really, I mean, that joythat we're feeling.
Absolutely.
That's given to us by God.
And all of those people thatloved our boys, when they're
helping us through that, God isin them, allowing their love to
(17:53):
come.
Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
What are some of the things or what's something?
I mean, that's one thing thatyou just shared.
But sometimes when we go throughsomething so painful, just
unspeakable.
I don't know of a better word todescribe losing a child.
If we have a relationship withGod already, when we go through
(18:16):
things like that, if we leaninto Him instead of running
away, because sometimes we,let's face it, when things like
that happen, we get angry withGod because we think either, how
could you let this happen?
Why did you cause this tohappen?
And the questions just go on andon and on.
But when we realize, you know,that it broke God's heart too
(18:39):
when Zach died.
And God was right there with youguys in the middle of all of
that.
And I'm guessing that youprobably knew so many things
about him through yourrelationship with him for years,
Mary.
Is there anything that youlearned about God over these
(19:01):
past four years that you didn'tknow?
before losing Zach.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
Yes.
I have always believed that Godis a source of comfort, love,
and peace.
But since Zach's passing, I havenot only believed that, but I've
also physically felt God'scomfort, love, and peace.
(19:26):
Three days after Zach passedaway, So it was December 28th of
2020.
When I woke up in the morning,my husband was reading his
morning devotion.
And I leaned over his shoulderand looked to see what his
devotion was for that morning.
And it was Psalm 147, verse 3.
(19:48):
He heals the brokenhearted andbinds up their wounds.
And I read the devotion and ittalked about how brokenness is
is a reality and makes you feelpowerless to do anything.
But God blesses us with hisoverflowing comfort and helps us
in our healing from heartacheand pain.
So when I read that, I felt likeit was written for me.
(20:11):
And then my husband realized theeffect it had on me.
So he suggested that I listen toBarn 45, which was a morning
Bible study that I had listenedto every morning, Monday through
Friday, on Facebook Live, andit's also on YouTube.
So I watched it that morning,and the specific Bible study
that they had on that morningwas Psalm 23, The Lord is My
(20:34):
Shepherd.
They talked about how a shepherdis a guardian and protector, all
that the sheep need.
A shepherd gives the sheepbreast, and he leads the sheep,
just like God is our guardianand protector.
all that we need, give us rest,and he leads us.
Again, I felt like thishour-long Bible study was
(20:59):
created just for me.
They talked about how you mayhave never been in this level of
alone before, but Jesus is ourshepherd and will guide us no
matter what horriblecircumstances you're going
through right now, and thatJesus, with his staff, can help
to pull us out of that deep,dark pit.
(21:23):
And I felt God's peace,presence, and love.
It was amazing.
That was the first time in mylife I had ever felt that.
And then I knew that God wasgoing to be able to get me
through this.
And I might not continuouslyfeel His presence, love, and
(21:43):
peace, but at least...
I knew that it was possible.
And I also learned what it waslike to lament and that it was
okay
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
to lament.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And this is three days after youlost Zach.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yes.
Yes.
That was the 28th, just threedays later.
SPEAKER_00 (22:04):
And for those of you who are listening and you maybe
didn't catch it, Mary lost Zachon Christmas Day of 2020.
And You know, I want us to goback and talk a little bit about
what led up to that.
But before we do, I know thereare people that are listening
that struggle with differentcelebrations that are part of
(22:29):
our lives throughout the year.
Traditions, Christmas,Thanksgiving, our children's
birthdays.
And You know, the list goes on.
I can't imagine what that did toyour, I guess, your ability to
participate in and to be able toenjoy Christmas going forward
like you had previously in yourlife.
(22:51):
How have you guys handled that?
I mean, how have you navigatedall of
SPEAKER_01 (22:55):
that?
Well, the very first year, Icouldn't.
listen to Christmas music atall.
Well, actually, I think it wasfor the first three years.
And if I was in a store, I hadto leave if there was any
Christmas music on.
So that pretty much eliminates,you know, going to a store
between Thanksgiving andChristmas.
(23:16):
And it's the most wonderful timeof the year.
I still do not like that song.
Yeah, it was really difficult.
The very first year, I had zerodesire to put up our tree.
Yeah, sure.
(23:50):
And I don't even remember if Iparticipated in any of that.
Knowing me, I at least movedornaments around on the tree
where I thought they shouldlook.
So we've always had notcelebrated Christmas on the
actual day because we've alwaysdone it on a day other than
Christmas because we've allowedour kids to be with their
(24:13):
significant others on ChristmasDay.
So that is a blessing for us.
Yes.
The very first year we went, weall went over to the cemetery,
though, for a couple of hours,took some chairs, went over
there, talked about Zach, andhad a toast to him.
And then the kids all went totheir significant others.
SPEAKER_00 (24:33):
I ask you that because people that haven't
experienced what we have, itdoesn't really occur to them
that, you know, there is anentire year of of experiencing
firsts.
You know, first Christmaswithout our child, first
birthday without our child, andso many others.
(24:55):
And those can be really hard tonavigate.
Sometimes the anticipation ofthat day arriving can actually
be more difficult than the dayitself.
Do you agree with that?
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
I do.
I always have more anxiety theday before a holiday than on the
actual day.
I just read it the day beforeand especially the night before.
I have a very hard time fallingasleep the night before because
even anticipating seeing thatdate on my phone, I don't
SPEAKER_00 (25:29):
like.
I understand that.
And I'm sure that probably allof our listeners do as well.
Mary, I said a minute ago that Iwanted us to come back to that,
to come back to something.
And that something is, you know,I want us to step back in time
four years, because at theoutset, when I was welcoming our
(25:50):
guests, I mentioned that youguys lost Zach due to
complications of asthma.
And, you know, that may be a bitbaffling to some people, you
know, in today's society.
world of medicine when we haveso many things that make
people's lives so much easierand that are life-saving.
(26:11):
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about what led up to that?
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
Okay, so Zach had asthma since he was about five
or six years old.
He usually had it when he had acold or if he used bleach
products or if he was outdisking and it had rained a lot
and there were a high level ofmold out in the woods where he
was disking.
(26:36):
But so...
I am unaware that he was sick.
I know he had been sick aroundHalloween time of 2020 because
he had to go into a walk-inclinic and they had to give him
oxygen and And they had to givehim a nebulizer treatment.
(26:57):
So I knew two months prior thathe had suffered with
SPEAKER_00 (27:02):
his asthma.
I didn't mean to interrupt, butjust for perspective, was Zach
living independently of you guysat this point?
SPEAKER_01 (27:09):
He was.
He was living down in Rockwell,Texas.
Oh, and I was asking him, like,after I knew that he had to go
into that walk-in clinic,Halloween of 2020, I kept asking
him, you know, how are you?
Are you okay?
Are you okay?
Yeah, mom.
Yeah, mom.
Well, then, you know, byChristmas, I mean, that only
(27:30):
lasted like a couple of weeks.
So then when I received thatphone call on December 2020, I
was unaware that he had beensick.
And the call was from hisfather.
And he and I had gotten divorcedback in 2006.
And his dad was living downthere and Zach had moved down
(27:52):
there a couple years prior tosee if he could have a closer
relationship with his dadbecause his dad had moved down
there while Zach was in middleschool.
So his dad found him in hisapartment, deceased.
Zach was sitting in a sittingposition on his couch.
(28:13):
And when someone is sufferingfrom asthma symptoms, If they
are either standing or sittingor even elevated, like laying
down elevated, it helps to keeptheir airways opened.
Because when they're lying flat,it sometimes causes fluids to
pool in their airways, whichmakes their breathing more
(28:34):
difficult.
And also asthma causesinflammation and it constricts
airways.
Right.
Right.
Right.
(29:04):
confusion, drowsiness, fatigue,and also a lack of
consciousness.
So with that continuous decreasein low blood oxygen levels,
somebody can pass away in aslittle
SPEAKER_00 (29:20):
as four to six minutes.
Did Zach have a rescue inhaler?
SPEAKER_01 (29:23):
He did not have a rescue inhaler at that time, but
he did have a nebulizer.
So when his dad walked into hisapartment, his nebulizer machine
was still running, but themedicine mist had already come
out of the mouthpiece and Zachhad already inhaled it.
(29:46):
And I'm not sure.
Sometimes Zach had to use twobreathing treatments.
And I'm not sure if he used oneor two.
I didn't ask his dad about that.
So I'm not really sure aboutthat.
But his dad did say that hisnebulizer machine was still
running.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
It had just run out of the medication that was in
it.
Gosh.
And he was how old?
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
26.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
So young.
SPEAKER_01 (30:10):
Yes, so young.
And I think, you know, becauseof that, Confusion, drowsiness,
the loss of consciousness.
I think that's why he may havebeen, you know, unaware of the
severity of his situation.
Yeah.
And his need to call 911.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Well, Mary, you know, we've talked a lot about
how grief impacted you.
And we've talked a little ofwhat that grief journey is like.
But I know that there are othermoms, maybe dads listening
today, too, that are earlier.
in their grief journey, like youwere four years ago, three years
(30:47):
ago.
And they may be wondering, isthis what life is going to be
like going forward?
Is this the best that I canexpect?
Am I always going to bestruggling with such difficulty
with my emotions and with griefbrain and just feeling so alone
(31:10):
and isolated?
Let's talk about what that griefjourney is like now in 2025, and
some things that you've donethat have helped get you to the
place where you are now.
I know that from ourconversations previously and
today, that I know that youwould point to your relationship
(31:31):
with the Lord as being yourfoundation for that healing
process.
Is there anything else that thatyou would share to offer some
hope and encouragement to thosethat are listening?
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Yes.
I have gotten so much helpthrough being in bereaved parent
support groups.
also listening to worship music,participating in ongoing Bible
book studies.
I belong to a virtual mothersupport group through Starlight
Ministries out of Grand Rapids,Michigan, which we meet once a
(32:09):
week, and I don't know what Iwould do.
SPEAKER_00 (32:11):
Is that Marcy Larson's part of her ministry?
SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
It is.
It is Marcy's.
And she does the Always Andy'sMom podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (32:21):
Yeah, actually, Andy's
SPEAKER_01 (32:23):
Mom.
SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
Both Marcy and her husband, Eric, were guests on
our podcast back, I don't know,a year and a half or so ago.
SPEAKER_01 (32:31):
Yes, yes.
And, you know, when I listenedto your podcast and I heard
Marcy and Peter, is it?
SPEAKER_00 (32:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
Oh, Peter's her other son.
When I listened to them and shetalked about Starlight
Ministries, I was like, I wrotethat down and then I listened to
the remaining podcast with her.
And then the next day I emailedStarlight Ministries.
2024, which I actually listenedto it, but you had recorded it.
That's right.
Maybe in 23.
(33:00):
Yeah,
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
she has a great podcast.
I would encourage anybody whowould like to check out that
podcast to do so because, youknow, Marcy and her husband
experienced the loss of a youngchild and she and her husband
both are physicians.
So it's a great podcast, anothergreat source of hope and
encouragement.
SPEAKER_01 (33:20):
Yes, yes.
Yours and hers.
And while we're waiting, got methrough every night.
For three years, I listened tothose.
And I mean, those aren't foreverybody.
I know some people, especiallyearly in grief, have a difficult
time.
But for me, and for a lot ofpeople that I know, they're so
(33:41):
comforting.
By listening to those peoplethat you interview, we can
realize that how we can recover,we can get through this, we can
survive it.
There is hope.
that we can get through theworst.
SPEAKER_00 (33:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I want to touch on this andI hope you'll display your good
sense of humor.
When I initially contacted youabout sharing your story, you
were hesitant.
And I understand that becausethat was probably almost a year
ago.
And I get that.
I probably couldn't have done itat that stage of grief, of our
(34:23):
grief journey.
It wasn't, I don't know, maybeseveral months later when you
discovered Marcy's podcast, yougot an invitation from her.
And you just, I remember youfelt so inadequate.
You shared that with me, thatyou felt inadequate about
sharing your story.
You worried about a lot ofdifferent things, but you prayed
about it.
And, you know, I'm so proud ofyou, as I know that Marcy is
(34:44):
too, that you allowed God To useyour pain and the difficulty and
the challenge of being willingto open up to in a public arena,
as it were, on a podcast topeople that you didn't know.
And you stepped out in faith andyou displayed a lot of courage
and you shared your story.
(35:06):
And I listened to that podcastthat you did with Marcy.
I would have never, ever thoughtthat you felt any pain.
anxiety or nervousness aboutsharing your story.
And I say that to encourageother people, because here you
are doing it again.
And I think it's so importantbecause as you said a minute
ago, I think we connect at aheart level when we share, when
(35:31):
people hear a story, they'rehearing that another parent
who's been through what I'vebeen through is actually talking
about it.
You connect at a level that youcouldn't connect with
information about grief orinformation about loss and how
you survive all of that.
So I would encourage you ifyou're listening and you haven't
(35:55):
had the opportunity to do that,when you have an opportunity to
share your story, step out infaith and share it because you
have no idea what difference youmight make in the life of of
another bereaved parent.
What would you say about that,Mary?
SPEAKER_01 (36:12):
I agree so much.
And I, you know, with Marcy, Ithink I may have felt, well, and
also I had told you, I don'tknow if you remember this when
you had contacted me initially,that I, that Marcy, I, she had
already, you know, I was in her,well, yeah, I was in her group.
So I had already said, and Ifelt, you know, An obligation to
(36:35):
Marcy because she had said toour group, if anybody wants to
get on the podcast, and I said,okay, when I'm ready.
But yes, I felt like if I reacheven one person and help one
person out there with anythingthat I have to say, it's worth
it.
And there might be somebody outthere that doesn't know about,
(36:59):
you know, the StarlightMinistries or while we're
SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
waiting.
Yes, that is Jill and BradSullivan.
Yep.
It is a great podcast.
Great resource.
SPEAKER_01 (37:11):
Yes.
And they have retreats and theyhave a Facebook group and Our
Hearts Are Home with Gary andLaura House.
They also have a podcast now.
They just started it about 15months ago, I think.
And they have a ministry withbook studies and conferences
twice a year.
And they have a grandparentsgroup and a siblings group.
(37:36):
And I mean, they just have alot.
And if somebody were to get onOur Hearts Are Home, they could
find all of the wonderful thingsthat are available through
there.
They have an ongoing book study,I think, all the time.
Right now we're doing...
with Vinita Reisner, Desperatefor Hope, which
SPEAKER_00 (37:57):
I know you had on your podcast.
She's a sweet lady.
SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
She's gone through a lot of suffering.
The thing that I would say thathelped me, oh, another thing,
reading a blog written byMelanie DeSimone has really
helped me.
Sermons that I have listened toabout grief, loss, and sorrow by
pastors Greg Laurie, Levi Luskoand for all.
SPEAKER_00 (38:25):
That's important, too.
I'm glad that you said that,Mary, because sometimes the
focus can sometimes seems likeit primarily for moms.
But, you know, dads strugglewith grief as well.
And I think that has has beenchanging over the years.
I think more men are stepping upand sharing their stories and
(38:45):
opening up to talk about it,which is very important in the
healing processes.
Once we start.
talking about it, sharing ourstory, whether it's one-on-one
or in a group or on a podcast,however it is, it really helps
tremendously to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (39:01):
Yes.
And I just listened to your mostrecent, your two most recent
podcasts, and it was sointeresting to hear the
different perspectives of thewife
SPEAKER_00 (39:12):
and then the
SPEAKER_01 (39:13):
mother and then the father.
SPEAKER_00 (39:15):
Because we grieve differently as individuals, but
we grieve very differently asmen and women, so differently as
moms and dads.
And it's important to be able torespect how our mate is
grieving.
And if they don't grieve like wedo, that's okay.
It's not that that one of you isright and the other is wrong.
(39:37):
It's just different.
And as we know, there is noright or wrong way to grieve.
SPEAKER_01 (39:44):
Yeah.
That reminds me, I, I like totell newly bereaved parents that
whatever, however they grieveand whatever decision they make
is the right decision becauseit's their grief journey.
And yeah, They should never feelpressured to do anything that
(40:05):
someone thinks that they shoulddo.
SPEAKER_00 (40:07):
Thank you for sharing that.
I think that is very important.
Don't let anybody else tell youhow you should be grieving.
That is your personal griefjourney.
Now, there certainly are healthyand unhealthy ways to grieve.
And when it starts, maybe ifthere are signs that you are
moving in an unhealthy directionor you feel like maybe your mate
(40:32):
is stuck, that may be what isknown as prolonged grief
disorder.
And that may need the help fromeither a counselor or a medical
professional, maybe interventionwith antidepressants or some
sort of therapy.
And there's no weakness in that.
Yes, definitely.
(40:52):
There's wisdom and there isstrength in knowing when you
need help and are willing to getit.
SPEAKER_01 (40:59):
Yes, I agree.
No one should ever feel bad orembarrassed about having to get
on antidepressants because
SPEAKER_00 (41:07):
they help a lot of people.
I'll be the first to say thatsix months after we lost Ryan, I
started an antidepressant andhave been on and off of them at
various times over the pastalmost 10 years.
SPEAKER_01 (41:23):
Yes, I just went on one.
And here I am four years into mygrief journey.
I just went on one the end ofJanuary.
But along with my grief, I had abroken foot and I had depression
from being immobile on top of mygrief.
SPEAKER_00 (41:42):
Like Mary just said, there is no shame in and needing
help and asking for it whetherit be through a medication or
counseling or something else.
Mary, it has been such a treatto have you on our podcast
today.
I know that there is somebodylistening today that you will
(42:03):
have had an impact on as theyhear you share about your
journey over the past four yearsand what God's done in the
healing process and how you'vehandled some of those challenges
that you've faced.
And I just, for one, want to saythank you again for being so
transparent and honest aboutwhat you've experienced.
(42:25):
And I want to just say I applaudyour courage.
for opening up to people,literally, maybe in another
country who are listening today,who needed to hear exactly what
you shared.
So thank you for that.
SPEAKER_01 (42:40):
Thank you so much, Greg.
It's been such an honor, such anhonor.
And I do want to, I just want tomention one thing very quickly.
My grief brain remembered thename of the movie that Zach
imitated Chip on.
SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
I remember we talked about that in our conversation a
few weeks ago.
And And that was a hilariousmovie, I suppose, if you were 15
years old, because my son anddaughter loved that movie.
SPEAKER_01 (43:08):
Maybe.
SPEAKER_00 (43:09):
Maybe.
Well, I'm glad you rememberedthat.
Well, Mary, thank you again.
You have been a blessing.
SPEAKER_01 (43:17):
As have you, Greg.
Thank you so, so much.
And thank you so much forreaching so many hurting
SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
hearts through your podcast.
We give all the credit to theLord.
And from my perspective, it isabsolutely a privilege.
SPEAKER_01 (43:30):
Thank
SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
you.
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