December 8, 2025 • 44 mins
Gentle note: we talk honestly about grief and child loss—please listen with care and kindness for yourself.
What does healing look like when the unthinkable happens? In this episode, I’m sitting with Melissa Hull—author, speaker, coach, fierce advocate, and Drew’s mom. After losing her son in a tragic drowning, Melissa has worked to choose a different ending for herself: love in motion, faith as a daily practice, grief as a path that can still lead to purpose.
In this conversation, we get real about:
- why presence over platitude matters when you don’t know what to say
- practical water safety Melissa teaches in classrooms (and why it saves lives)
- the letter that became her lighthouse—and how choice + agency help us heal
- self-forgiveness as parents, especially around the holidays
- tangible ways to support grieving friends (and how to ask for what you need)
If you’re in a tender season, consider this a steady hand to hold.
Resources & Links for Connecting with Melissa
Guest: melissahull.com
Book: Dear Drew: Creating a Life Bigger Than Grief
Earlier memoir: Lessons from Neverland
Thank you for listening to Hope Comes to Visit. If this conversation helps, follow the show, share it with someone who needs hope today, and leave a review - it helps others find their way to these conversations.
New episodes drop every Monday, so you can begin your week with a little light and a lot of hope.
For more stories, reflections, and ways to connect, visit www.DanielleElliottSmith.com or follow along on Instagram @daniellesmithtv and @HopeComestoVisit
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Even in the midst of grief, we have choices.
We have choices in how we allowourselves to think about our
loved ones.
We uh it it's we we havechoices in how we care for
ourselves as we are grieving.
There are endless choices thatwe make.
And even to not choose is tochoose.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Hi there, friends, and welcome to Hope Comes to
Visit.
I'm Danielle Elliott Smith.
As you know, this is a place toexhale, to name all the things
that are hard in life, some ofthe things that hurt, and to
notice how we grow around it.
A gentle note for today'spodcast: we are going to be
talking about some difficulttopics, um, some grief and child
(00:47):
loss.
So I want to make sure you areaware and prepared if this is
something that is sensitive toyou.
My guest today is Melissa Hall.
She's a mother, a best-sellingauthor, an international
speaker, a coach, a CEO, andadvocate.
After losing her son Drew in atragic drowning accident,
Melissa chose a differentending, one where love becomes
(01:07):
action, faith becomes practice,and grief becomes a pathway to
purpose.
Through her coaching, courses,books, and speaking, Melissa
offers spiritual wisdom andpractical tools for healing, the
kind you can actually use.
I'm so delighted she's herewith me today.
If you're in a tender season,I'm confident this conversation
(01:29):
is one for you.
Let's take a quick moment tothank the people that support
and sponsor the podcast.
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(01:51):
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Melissa, thank you so much forbeing here with me today.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And thank you so much for having me.
And thank you for that verylovely introduction.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
My pleasure.
There is a there is a lot toyou, right?
Um, I I have done my duediligence in learning about you.
And I know that thisconversation that we're having
is one that's been a long timecoming.
We've we've wanted to have thisconversation for quite some
time.
So I'm super grateful thatwe've been able to connect now.
And you have done a lot of hardwork to get to the point where
(02:34):
you are now.
Will you do the audience thehonor of telling us a little bit
about Drew and your story?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Absolutely.
Um, Drew is my oldest of threechildren.
And Drew was born in um Augustof 1995.
And Drew had this insatiablekind of thirst for living.
He he just, from the moment hewas born, it was like this child
(03:07):
just had to experience as muchlife as possible.
Which when he was younger, um,two and three was manageable.
But as he got into like threeand a half and four, and he got
more mobile, I would, I wouldencounter things like Drew being
um climbing up to the top of atree that was far too high for
(03:27):
me to go and get him.
And so we would have to callthe fire department to bring him
down.
Um, Drew would venture off onhis little big wheel, and you
know, a neighbor would bring himback saying that we saw Drew
pedaling down the street.
Um he just had this insatiablequest to live and this curiosity
(03:48):
for what the world had in storefor him.
And so on this one morning, um,it was May 19th in the year
2000, Drew woke up at about 5:30in the morning, which is early.
You know, it's early.
And I had been up for at leastone night, maybe two nights,
with my younger son Devin, whohad asthma as a as a toddler.
(04:12):
So I was your typical kind ofexhausted mom that morning that
he woke me up at 5:30 and hecame in with this beautiful
little um statement.
He said, Mama, the sun is up,which was permission for him to
get out of bed.
Permission.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I mean, my child had the same, the same permission.
The sun is up.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Exactly.
The sun was up, and that washis permission to get out of
bed.
It was a rule you can't get outof bed until the sun's up in
the sky.
On this particular day, I wishI had said until mommy wakes up.
He woke up and asked me to umget him some breakfast.
And even though I was verytired, I got up with him and we
(04:57):
went into the kitchen.
And his request for breakfastthat morning was Rocky Road ice
cream or beef raviolis.
And so, being an exhausted mom,we went with the beef ravioles.
I didn't fight too much for ahealthier option that morning.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I was just too tired.
Very sophisticated palate for afour-year-old.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
He he he loved food, he loved everything about
living.
Um, but this morning he askedfor beef ravioles.
We got him as beef ravioles.
I turned on his favorite show,which was Thomas the Tank Engine
at the time, and gave him somecrayons and a piece of paper and
said, Sweetheart, I'm gonna goback and check on Devin.
(05:37):
And Drew was aware that hisbrother had asthma and he
understood that um Devonstruggled to breathe.
And so he was like, Okay, mama,I'll be right here.
And I said, I'll be right back,sweetheart.
As I went back to check onDevin, of course, he was
struggling to breathe.
And so, like every good mom,we, you know, I just sat beside
(05:58):
him, patting his back, justtrying to ease his, you know,
keep him calm so he would sleep.
And the next thing I realized,I woke up.
I did not realize I had evenfallen asleep.
But when I did wake up, I hadthat instinctual kind of feeling
that something was not quiteright.
(06:18):
And as I looked for Drew in thehouse, um, I was calling out to
him.
He wasn't in front of thetelevision where I'd left him.
Um, I began saying, Hey,sweetheart, mommy's looking for
you.
Please answer me with noresponse back.
So then I started to look inthe less obvious places, you
know, in you know, in closets,under under the bed.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Um Is he hiding?
Is it is it hiding?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Is it which would be normal for Drew?
He loved he loved to play hideand go seek.
And so initially I didn't thinkthat there was anything wrong,
but as you know, 15 minutes goby and there's no response, um
I'm becoming more and morepanicked.
And as I'm going through thehouse looking for him, I
(07:06):
happened to notice that oursliding glass door to the
backyard was open maybe about aninch than I hadn't noticed
before.
So I thought, okay, well, he'sjust outside and thought, okay,
I'll go find him.
So as I'm yeah, I I threw on adress and some flip-flops, and I
went outside and I startcalling for my for my little
(07:26):
boy, Drew.
You know, mommy's looking foryou.
And I I live in in rural inrural Arizona in in the middle
of massive farmland.
So I am surrounded by fields umand irrigation systems.
And um so I knew that therewere dangers around the house.
And the minute I couldn't startto find Drew, I did look in the
(07:50):
direction of a very largeirrigation canal where I saw his
footprints leading towards thatirrigation canal.
Um in Yuma, we have over 220miles of open irrigation
systems.
Um, so this is something thatis very common in our community.
(08:10):
It's something that I was veryaware of and educated my boys
that canals were not, you know,not to be played around, that
they were very serious andneeded to be taken as such.
Um, but Drew's adventurouslittle spirit, um, I I could
just see his footprints leadingthat direction.
And when I reached the canal,um there was evidence of where
(08:35):
he had fallen in.
And I immediately dropped to myknees and started to beg, pray,
you know, you know, just pleadwith God to please bring him
home safely.
And unfortunately for me, thatdid not happen.
Um, it was several hours later,and after a massive search that
(08:59):
was conducted by the our localresponder to the his body was
discovered.
Um and I was told that mylittle boy lost his life that
morning.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Melissa, I saying I'm sorry sounds so flat and
insufficient, um, despite thefact that this has been a number
of years for you and you'veclearly done magnificent work in
helping other people throughgrief like this.
But at what point did youdecide that your story could
(09:39):
help other people?
Because right before you and Icame on, we connected on the
Yuma piece.
Yuma was my my first televisionjob, right?
And one of the reasons I didnot stay as a traditional
reporter was because the ideathat someone's grief or loss or
(10:00):
tragedy could help was sort ofthe the pivotal point in trying
to talk to families.
I wasn't good at that.
The the I want to talk topeople about their hope, but
when they're ready, not in themoment, not when I'm trying to
get someone to talk, not when alot of reporters have that
(10:21):
gotcha moment.
At what point did you decidethis was a story you wanted to
tell and you thought I can helpsomeone else either through
grief they're going through orin a water safety aspect?
Because I know that that's beena part of your mission as well.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Um, that is honestly where the decision to share my
story began.
I was actually asked by um, Ifor, you know, I apologize, I
have forgotten her name, but uh,she was the I I guess the
organ, the organizer of theDebut Deck program in the
(11:01):
Imperial Valley.
And she reached out to me andexplained to me that even inside
of this unimaginable loss,there was this very unique
opportunity for me to educatefamilies specifically about
irrigation canal awareness andwater safety.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Which is very unique to the area where you were
living.
And I know that the people whoare listening, not everyone is
familiar with the the Yuma inthe Imperial Valley in Yuma, but
Yuma is at the crossroads ofCalifornia, the Mexico border,
and Arizona.
And it is very unique in thesense that so much of the
nation's farming happens in thatarea, and the canals never mind
(11:45):
the border, right?
So there is a river between theborder of the United States and
Mexico.
So there water safety is a hugeissue there.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It is, and unfortunately, most of the
education is centered around umeither boating or swimming pools
in our community.
We we do have Martinez Lake, wehave the river, the Colorado
River, which people, you know,um they boat on and they use as
a way of cooling off in thesummer.
(12:16):
It gets very warm here.
And so the river and MartinezLake are obvious places to go to
cool off, along with swimmingpools.
Irrigation canals don't get asmuch exposure to the potential
dangers that they pose.
And as Yuma has grown, and ithas grown substantially in the
(12:36):
last 25 years, what we're seeingis that the developments are
going into what has beenhistorically, you know, left as
farmland.
And so these irrigation canalsare there.
They're already a part of theinfrastructure, if you will.
And so most people, when theygo and they buy homes in these
communities, they're not payingattention to what's on the
(12:57):
backside of that development.
Okay.
And so this was an opportunityfor me to once again go to the
most vulnerable, which are yourare going to be uh little, you
know, children under the age offive, but the highest
demographic of is little boysunder the age of five, and it it
(13:17):
increases in minorities.
That is little boys.
Um so I I decided that I wouldshare Drew's story in an effort
to help other families neverexperience this unimaginable
pain.
And at first it was an act ofservice in honor of Drew, but as
(13:41):
I stepped more into that role,I found that talking about my
story was really helping me finda pathway to move with my grief
and not feel stagnated by it.
Um, I was able to see at a veryearly stage the importance of
sharing Drew's story because itdid, it was a very tragic
(14:07):
experience in my communityrallied around our family.
And so everybody was very awareof what had happened.
But I wanted to reach Drew'speers, and so I focused on going
into preschools.
And you can imagine being amother who's just buried her son
six months ago and going in andlooking at the beautiful faces
(14:30):
of all of these innocent littleones.
It was it was hard in thebeginning, but the when I leaned
into that, I just found astrength and resilience and a
partnership with Drew, if youwill, okay, to continue sharing
his story.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I know you said that you it's almost like you're
channeling strength from him,right?
Because you're leaning into abit of your pain and loss, but
recognizing that he's there withyou to help his peers to stay
(15:09):
safe.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I um I have a pretty unique relationship with my
grief in that I have never seengrief just as this place where
love has nowhere to go.
I have always felt that mygrief was love's presence
calling forward my consciousnessto recognize its presence right
(15:33):
here, right now.
I don't ever think of Drew asbeyond my reach.
All I have to do is think aboutmy love for him, and I'm
instantly connected to him.
That love has propelled notonly me forward, it's it's been
the impetus behind a movement.
I have taken my story and myjourney of learning to live
(15:57):
alongside my grief and learning,learning to how to allow my
life to bloom, even though Ihave had significant loss in a
way that I know it would nothave been possible had I not had
the beautiful experience ofbeing Drew Smong for even that
short, brief four and a halfyear period of time.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
It is such a tremendous loss.
And I in listening to some ofyour podcasts and in reading
some of what you've written, I Irecognize one of the things
that that I heard you say thatis so tremendously beautiful.
And I I have talked about griefon the podcast before.
Um, right when I was gettingready to launch, I lost a
(16:40):
significant other at the time.
And that was two and a halfyears ago.
And it gutted me.
Uh, I had never experiencedloss like that.
And I found myself very much ina in an unknown, hopeless
place.
And I had never been that girl.
I had never been someone whocouldn't see the light on the
(17:02):
other side.
But I realized that that waspart of the journey that I
needed to go through in order tobirth this podcast too, in
order to be able to have theseconversations, to recognize what
it looks like to not have hopeand to be hope-filled.
And you talked about receivinga letter from another mother who
(17:25):
had experienced unimaginableloss.
And in that letter, she talkedto you or she encouraged you to
make a choice to live, a choiceto choose joy, to choose to
actively make positive choicesin your life.
Because at this point, despitethe loss, the loss isn't going
(17:48):
to change, but that you have theability to choose what happens
next.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I think that was the greatest um gift inside of her
message is this acknowledgementof the power of our our ability
to choose.
And even in the midst of grief,we have choices.
We have choices in how we allowourselves to think about our
loved ones.
We uh it it's we we havechoices in how we care for
(18:16):
ourselves as we are grieving.
There are endless choices thatwe make.
And even to not choose is tochoose.
And she was very clear abouthow important it was to make
sure that my choices alignedwith the life that I envisioned
for myself, one that stillincluded things like joy and
(18:37):
happiness, um, fulfillment andmeaning.
And she was very honest.
And I appreciated that honesty.
I appreciated that she too feltresponsible for the accident
that happened to her child, muchlike I did.
I fell asleep.
And the the journey offorgiving myself for that has,
(18:59):
you know, it was it took years.
It took years and years andyears.
But her letter was sort of likemy my um my lighthouse, if you
will, in in the storm.
And and the thing about griefis that it has so many different
iterations.
It it just when you think thatyou have gotten to a place of
(19:21):
stability, there'll be a waveand it will send you back into
what feels like the verybeginning phases.
And what I've come tounderstand is that grief, grief
is it it's a bit of a dance.
It the tempo changes, the thesteps change, and you just have
to be willing to listen.
Listen to the rhythm, find youryour place inside of that.
(19:43):
Um, but the other thing that Ihonestly took from that letter
was empowerment.
It was up to me to decide whatmy life would become.
And the grief didn't get to bethe end all be all, that I still
had this.
Choice, this ability to takethis experience and use it for a
(20:04):
greater good, for a deeperpurpose.
And that's what I held on to.
And her letter absolutely cameat a pivotal time in my life.
I was riddled with, I guess tosay self-hatred wouldn't be
accurate.
I couldn't forgive myself.
I couldn't imagine how I couldbe a good mother going forward
(20:25):
to Devin.
How could he be safe around meif I fell asleep with, you know,
and Drew had this accident?
What else could I make a, youknow, what else could I miss and
potentially hurt my remainingson?
And so it took me a long timeto really settle into this idea
that I was a good mother the dayof the accident, and I have
(20:46):
always remained a good mother.
And that journey of forgivingmyself has been one of the gifts
that her letter was reallyresponsible for because she said
things to me that I needed tohear.
And because it was coming froma mother who I felt really did
see me accurately, it reached mein a way where no one else
(21:08):
could.
There were so many well-meaningpeople, you know, clergy and
friends and family andcounselors and therapists, you
name it.
I had a huge support group.
But the words of a mother whohad a very similar experience,
you know.
Yeah, living your experience.
Yeah.
It was credible in a way thatcut through the pain and reached
(21:33):
my heart.
And that was the first timethat I felt something that I
would say was it resembled hope.
I think it was my pleading withGod in that moment to let me
have hope, that to give me somekind of hope, that this
(21:53):
experience would not be the onlything that I would come to
know, that I would still be ableto have joy and to seek out
purpose and meaning throughservice and through sharing
Drew's story.
And then from there it becametalking about my journey.
Um I remember the first time uhI was approached after I had
(22:17):
been on stage.
Um, I had written a book calledLessons from Neverland that
talked about um some of my myexperiences with with grief and
trauma from a young age throughDrew's passing.
And I had been asked to speakat the um at the Women's
Economic Forum in Delhi, India.
(22:38):
And so I found myself on astage just across the world and
talking about how I used serviceand purpose as a vehicle to
deepen my experience with mygrief in a way that felt
foundational, that felt like itpropelled me forward and gave me
(22:59):
a purpose and a reason forcontinuing to live, but not just
live in existence, but tothrive, to really live life with
joy and happiness, which feltcompletely gone in the
beginning.
And so as I finished mypresentation, um, I come off
(23:20):
stage and there is a line ofwomen that are forming.
And these women came up to mewith tears in their eyes.
And this one question, whichwas, How did I do this?
How did I heal from all ofthat?
How did I take this experienceand find a way to move forward?
(23:41):
Because they were all dealingwith a different type of grief,
but they were all grieving andthey were desperate to
understand how it was that Icould be the person that they
saw on stage, the woman thatthat was doing well and and had
you know is productive and I wascontributing and making a
(24:04):
difference.
They wanted to they wanted tounderstand how I arrived at that
point because they too wantedto take their grief and
transform it into something morethan just the pain that they
were experiencing.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
What did you say?
I mean, I I there's part of methat feels as though it was less
having arrived and more in theprocess of constantly arriving.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Absolutely.
To be honest with you, itforced me to get very clear
about how to answer thatquestion.
I I had my journey, I had myexperiences, but I never really
stopped to be very thoughtfulabout what were those practices
that really did help me movemyself forward in a meaningful
(24:51):
and subs and sustained way.
And that's what led to mysecond book, which is Dear Drew
Creating a Life Bigger ThanGrief.
It's my process.
It's the process that I took.
Um, Teresa gave me thisbeautiful letter as an
inspiration, but it was a letterwithout direction.
And I wanted to go the nextstep.
(25:11):
And so I included in my in mybook, Dear Drew, Creating a Life
Bigger Than Grief, my story,the practices that I studied,
the um the different modalitiesof healing that I I explored in
my pursuit to bring myself backto what I consider a place of
(25:31):
wholeness, a place of safety, aplace of love, self-love and
self-trust again.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
And what do you think has been most fundamental for
you?
Like what is when I think oflike when I think about you
being whole of the of the thingsthat you've mentioned in terms
of what was so gutting for you,in addition to losing Drew, a
big part of this is that you hadto get to a place where you
(25:59):
forgave yourself.
And I think that as mothers,there's there's a piece of us
that's born with guilt, right?
We're we're always worried thatwe're not feeding them right
and we're not getting them tosleep on time, and do they know
that we love them?
And and that's that's innate inus without having experienced
the loss you experienced, right?
So, how did you reach a point?
(26:22):
And and it sounds as though youhave, so if you haven't fully
reached that, you're welcome tosay that as well.
But how do you how did youreach a point where you feel as
though I have forgiven myself?
I've reached a point where I Iam not carrying around the guilt
of that.
I I can still experience theloss and the pain and the grief,
but I don't blame myself.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Um, that question is one of the most uh difficult to
answer because I think ithappened, it happened in
iterations and it happened in inyou know over time, but it did
occur.
Um and I'm super honest aboutmy my my journey of healing.
Um there were years where Ifelt like I've really, I've
(27:08):
really, you know, I've reallytaken this experience and and
and learned from it and I'vegrown from it, only to a year
later feel like I'm right backat the very beginning and it's
25 years later.
But it but the the the nuancesof grief are hard to articulate
unless you're in the experience.
There are so many things thatyou don't anticipate as being
(27:33):
triggering, but they are.
And right now, facing theholidays, this is a very acute
time.
It feels like grief canintensify.
And I think that happens, butyou know, it makes sense to me
that this is a season wheregathering and family and
(27:53):
connection is at the forefrontof everything that we're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
We gather it's every commercial, it's every even if
even if you're not activelydoing it, it's in everything we
see.
So how do you insulate, prepareyourself, or meet it head on
and help yourself or guidesomeone else the way Teresa
(28:20):
guided you through this process?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I I encourage everyone to be honest with where
they're at and to be as presentas they can be for as long as
it makes sense for them.
I think that grief sometimes wehave to we have to treat it
like an injury at times.
We we are tender, we are we area bit more raw and our emotions
(28:47):
are more on the surface, butthat doesn't mean that the
holidays can't still be joyful.
We just have to approach themdifferently.
We have to make room for boththe grief and the grace, for the
gratitude and the ache.
It's all a part of thisjourney.
And I think the more honestpeople are, grievers are, me in
(29:09):
particular, it's been a personalchoice to be very honest about
what this experience is likebecause I know that sometimes
people feel like it's onlyhappening to them, and that all
of these internal thoughts andfeelings, the things that kind
of creep in and quietly whisper,you know, it was all your
fault, or, you know, if only youhadn't fallen asleep, your
(29:32):
family would still be together.
All of that isn't part of this.
And the holidays can sometimesintensify that.
But I have there, there areways that we can help help
offset that, help, help to quietthat narrative and then and
then to refocus our mind on whatstill remains.
Even though Drew isn'tphysically with me, there is so
(29:54):
much of Drew, Drew's life andlegacy that remain, and that's
what I choose to focus on.
The holidays presentedchallenges initially, but I've
come to understand and embracethe fact that traditions can
change.
And I make room for Drew inevery holiday that we celebrate
by by encouraging people to talkabout him, to share their
(30:16):
memories of him.
I went as far one year to askfor nothing more than other
people's memories of Drewwritten down on a card.
I wanted to know what theythought of him.
I wanted to know what theirexperiences were with him.
And those cards and thosememories have been the greatest
treasures of my life because nowI get to not only experience my
(30:40):
son in my memories, I get tolayer other people's on top of
it.
And now Drew feels even morepresent in the holidays than he
did.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
What a beautiful idea for a gift, right?
For someone who is experiencinggrief around the holidays to
suggest to the people they love,you know, as it as an exchange
for someone who might be missingfrom the table that people
write down and share memories ofthe person they're missing.
Um, I have a young friend whorecently her mother, and I I
(31:13):
told her, I suggested to herthat one of the things heading
into the holidays that she does,she gives herself grace.
Yeah.
But if she's feeling up to it,she goes.
If she feels like she's beenthere for 15 minutes and she
can't people, it's okay to gohome.
It's okay to hug everybody andsay, I this is all I have in me
right now.
Um, because I I find that thatgrief really is that dance
(31:36):
partner that you're not sure ifthey're gonna step on your toes
or gonna swing you around theroom.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Absolutely.
And um, I think that peoplethat are around a person that is
struggling with acute loss, ormaybe it's not acute, but it's
it's still a present loss.
The the sadness is palpable orthe the loss is is is certainly
felt to not shy away fromallowing them to talk about
(32:04):
their loved one.
And and I I have I have invitedpeople to do it in a few
different ways.
Um when we were sitting aroundthe table, if somebody felt
inspired to talk about Drew, itwas it was completely fine.
I was fine with that.
And I let everyone know thattalking about Drew isn't
painful, it's not talking aboutDrew and thinking that somehow
(32:27):
we have to avoid the topic ofhis life.
That was more painful.
And so I think there is alittle bit that the breever can
do to help people understandwhere to meet them through
communication.
Um, but it's also important forsupporters to understand that
presence is so much moreimportant than platitude.
(32:50):
You don't have to havesomething to say.
Clichés sometimes are not, orthey're not the most effective
things to say because it doesn'talways reflect the the net the
enormity of where a person is.
And saying something like thiswas God's plan, or now this
person is an angel in heaven canfeel pretty dismissive of the
(33:11):
pain of a person that a personis experiencing today.
So I often say it's better tosay, I'm really not sure what to
say, but I'm thinking of them,and I'm sure you are too.
If you want to talk about theirlife, or is it okay if we do
talk about it?
Just asking is so much betterthan making assumptions that
(33:31):
it's too painful and avoidingit, and or yeah, just just
trying to pretend like theaccident or the person isn't
there, but it isn't needed to bespoken about.
I think just giving people roomto say, I miss this person.
I I I have fond memories ofthis, I wish that they were
(33:53):
still here, all of that shouldbe permissible in the holidays
without people fearing that theperson that is going through
this experience is going to fallapart.
I think that, you know,brievers, we're under a lot of
pressure.
It feels like we got to get putunder a bit of a microscope
this time of year.
Like, can you manage this?
Are you okay?
Those questions can sometimesbe a little destabilizing.
(34:16):
Again, presence, being there.
You know, would you like adrink?
You know, you want to go for awalk, just little things like
that are so much more helpfulthan saying something that you
you really don't know how itwill land.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You make an important point, though, that those of us
going through grief can doourselves a great service by
trying to communicate what weneed.
Because I know that one of thethings my therapist said to me,
I went, I had a traditionaltherapist and I went to an
(34:50):
additional grief therapist atthe time.
And she said, Danielle, whatpeople don't understand is that
your entire life is turnedupside down.
Not only are you going throughthis tremendous loss, but your
entire life is being rearranged.
Your people are in threedifferent buckets.
There are the people who areshowing up for you, the people
who are completely disappearing,and the people who are kind of
showing up and sometimes sayingthe right thing and and
(35:12):
sometimes not, but at leastthey're trying.
The challenge is that everyoneyou were positive was going to
be in your I'm here for youbucket.
Many of those people are now inthe I don't know where they
went bucket.
Wow.
Because they decided I don'tknow what to say, better to say
nothing.
And one of the things I learnedthrough grief is that though it
(35:33):
is the one universal experiencewe will all have, it is the one
we're the least equipped tohandle.
People don't know what to do orsay, and so they frequently
walk away, disappear, step backbecause they're afraid of saying
the wrong thing.
And I prefer, I learned thatthe most important thing is to
(35:54):
show up, even if you're not evenif you're showing up with, I
don't have the right words, Ican't make this better, but I
love you.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yes.
I that's what I mean bypresence over platitude.
Um, not knowing what to sayisn't the worst thing that can
happen.
Not knowing what to say andavoiding the person that is
suffering and grieving, that isthe greater tragedy.
And it's a second wave of lossbecause isolation is real.
(36:23):
People don't know what to say.
And I have found thatparticularly parents of younger
children, it's it's verydifficult for other people to
know how to talk to them.
Is it I remember being told, Iwasn't sure if I should or
shouldn't invite your son to mydaughter's birthday party
because it might be triggeringfor you.
(36:45):
And I remember thinking thatwas probably one of the most
honest things a person had saidto me.
And I actually was moreappreciative of their honesty
because it gave me theopportunity to say, you know
what?
I will be okay.
I can manage this.
And here's, here's, here's,here, I'll go a step further.
If I can't, I'll be the firstone to let you know and ask for
(37:10):
for your support.
But if it's okay with you, I'dlove for Devin to to attend.
I we'd love to try.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Maybe you could have a friend take him or a
grandparent or a neighbor, ormaybe, you know what, offer to
pick him up.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, you know, there's lots of things.
I actually ended up taking himand I I I took the intentional
time to, I knew a lot of thefamilies that were going to be
there, and I just said, hey,listen, we're going.
And Devin's very excited.
But if you see me take a minutewhere I need to walk to the
backyard or just take a minuteto myself, give me a moment.
(37:47):
Let me have just a minute tocenter myself.
I will come back to the party,or I will communicate that I
need to step out and I'll comeback and pick them up.
I just have learned thatcommunication solved so many
awkward moments and like weirdum assumptions that people had
(38:10):
about what would be too much forme.
It was such a clarifying andhonestly healing experience just
to be asked and then to give anhonest response and say, I
don't know how I'm going to bethat day.
But if I run into trouble, I'llI'll be the first one to let
you know.
I don't want to, you know,detract from the celebration.
(38:31):
I know that this will be hard.
I'm prepared and I'm gonna I'lldo my best.
But here's here's what Ipromise that I will make sure
that I'm managing myself in sucha way as to not to detract from
the celebration.
But I'm also going in with alot of optimism that this is
gonna be a wonderful experiencefor all of us.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Good for you.
Melissa, how do you definehope?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Hope for me is the ability to see beyond my
circumstances and to align withall of the possibilities that
still remain.
That's beautiful.
That's beautiful.
So that says that we wereprepared to answer that.
You know, um well, it's it'sit's something I've thought
quite a lot about.
(39:18):
Um, and it's honestly hope isthe first chapter of my book,
Dear Drew Creating a Life BiggerThan Grief, because it is such
a pivotal and foundational partof this journey that I have been
on for the last 25, almost 26years now.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, I can't even imagine.
But I what I do find, I find, Ifeel as though hope could title
almost every chapter of whatyou've done because you you're
offering hope in the lessons ofwater safety, and you're
offering hope in community, andyou're offering hope in in the
(39:56):
experience of forgiveness, andyou're offering hope in.
How to choose joy.
And while Teresa wrote you whathas turned out to be a love
letter that that gave you hope,it sounds to me as though, dear
Drew, is your version of thatlove letter to reach as many
people as possible?
(40:17):
Is there anything that youwould say to somebody
individually who you knew wasstruggling, in addition to
saying everything else that Ihave wrapped up in a bow is in
the book?
But if I could give you onepiece of advice or one thing to
hang on to, it would be this.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Absolutely.
Um, that you don't have tofigure it all out to begin, that
your journey towards healing isas simple and as difficult as
choosing to take that first steptowards what aligns with
bringing you a sense ofwholeness, a sense of safety
that aligns you with the abilityto look at your choices and
(41:02):
forgive yourself and to loveyourself through your
imperfections.
There's not a single perfectparent that I've ever met.
I don't think I will ever meetthe perfect parent.
We all have to have grace foreach other, but most
importantly, we have to learnhow to extend it to ourselves in
order for it to be reallyuseful and for us to really
(41:23):
understand what it means to havegrace.
When you can have grace foryour own faults, your own
missteps, whatever they mightbe, or however you choose to
look at the events of your life,when you have the ability to
hold grace for yourself and thenextend it to yourself.
That is one of the most healingand loving acts that you can
(41:45):
take.
And it is simple as justholding that space and saying, I
am worthy of a life that'sbigger than this pain.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Oh, Melissa, I am so truly sorry that you experienced
the heartbreaking loss of Drew.
Thank you.
And I am so grateful the worldhas you.
Um, I'm so grateful for theheart and love and wisdom that
you have the ability that youare choosing to share with
(42:15):
people because it is a gift.
Um, not everyone is able tochoose the way you have, and you
are by example, offering hopethat it can happen.
And I so appreciate you takingtime with us.
Where can where can ourlisteners find you?
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Um, my website is melissahall.com, and that's M E
L I S S A H U L L dot com.
You will find water safetyeducation resources there.
You will find my weekly blog,you will find resources to help
support you or someone you lovethrough the holiday season
that's craving.
You can just go there.
(42:58):
You can also find the link tomy book there as well.
You are a gift.
Is there anything I did not askyou that you would like to
share?
You know, I I no, I think thiswas a wonderful conversation.
And I thank you so much forallowing me to share my story
and my love of my beautiful sonDrew with your audience today.
(43:18):
Um, it's been a real pleasure.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Thank you for being here.
And friends, as always, uh itis such a gift to have you here
as part of this community.
Whether this is the first timeyou are joining us or you are a
regular listener, it means somuch that you are here.
I hope that this conversationwith Melissa has touched you the
(43:43):
way it has touched me, and thatthere will be a few sentences
or a tidbit or a piece of heradvice or her book that you want
to share with someone elsebecause you know someone you
love needs to hear it as well.
Please continue to come backand listen to our conversations
and share this episode.
(44:03):
And please, until we see at youagain, take very good care of
you.
Thanks for being here.
Naturally, it's important tothank the people who support and
sponsor the podcast.
This episode is supported byChris Dully, a trusted criminal
defense attorney and friend ofmine here in St.
Louis, who believes in secondchances and solid
(44:26):
representation.
Whether you're facing a DWI,felony, or traffic issue, Chris
handles your case personallywith clarity, compassion, and
over 15 years of experience.
When things feel uncertain, ithelps to have someone steady in
your corner.
Call 314 384 4000 or 314 DUIHelp, or you can visit
Dulilawfirm.com to schedule yourfree consultation.
Even in the midst of grief, we have choices.
We have choices in how we allowourselves to think about our
loved ones.
We uh it it's we we havechoices in how we care for
ourselves as we are grieving.
There are endless choices thatwe make.
And even to not choose is tochoose.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Hi there, friends, and welcome to Hope Comes to
Visit.
I'm Danielle Elliott Smith.
As you know, this is a place toexhale, to name all the things
that are hard in life, some ofthe things that hurt, and to
notice how we grow around it.
A gentle note for today'spodcast: we are going to be
talking about some difficulttopics, um, some grief and child
(00:47):
loss.
So I want to make sure you areaware and prepared if this is
something that is sensitive toyou.
My guest today is Melissa Hall.
She's a mother, a best-sellingauthor, an international
speaker, a coach, a CEO, andadvocate.
After losing her son Drew in atragic drowning accident,
Melissa chose a differentending, one where love becomes
(01:07):
action, faith becomes practice,and grief becomes a pathway to
purpose.
Through her coaching, courses,books, and speaking, Melissa
offers spiritual wisdom andpractical tools for healing, the
kind you can actually use.
I'm so delighted she's herewith me today.
If you're in a tender season,I'm confident this conversation
(01:29):
is one for you.
Let's take a quick moment tothank the people that support
and sponsor the podcast.
When life takes an unexpectedturn, you deserve someone who
will stand beside you.
St.
Louis attorney Chris Dulyoffers experienced one-on-one
legal defense.
Call 314-384-4000 or 314-DUIhelp.
(01:51):
Or you can visitDulilawfirm.com.
That's D-U-L-L-E lawfirm.comfor a free consultation.
Melissa, thank you so much forbeing here with me today.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And thank you so much for having me.
And thank you for that verylovely introduction.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
My pleasure.
There is a there is a lot toyou, right?
Um, I I have done my duediligence in learning about you.
And I know that thisconversation that we're having
is one that's been a long timecoming.
We've we've wanted to have thisconversation for quite some
time.
So I'm super grateful thatwe've been able to connect now.
And you have done a lot of hardwork to get to the point where
(02:34):
you are now.
Will you do the audience thehonor of telling us a little bit
about Drew and your story?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Absolutely.
Um, Drew is my oldest of threechildren.
And Drew was born in um Augustof 1995.
And Drew had this insatiablekind of thirst for living.
He he just, from the moment hewas born, it was like this child
(03:07):
just had to experience as muchlife as possible.
Which when he was younger, um,two and three was manageable.
But as he got into like threeand a half and four, and he got
more mobile, I would, I wouldencounter things like Drew being
um climbing up to the top of atree that was far too high for
(03:27):
me to go and get him.
And so we would have to callthe fire department to bring him
down.
Um, Drew would venture off onhis little big wheel, and you
know, a neighbor would bring himback saying that we saw Drew
pedaling down the street.
Um he just had this insatiablequest to live and this curiosity
(03:48):
for what the world had in storefor him.
And so on this one morning, um,it was May 19th in the year
2000, Drew woke up at about 5:30in the morning, which is early.
You know, it's early.
And I had been up for at leastone night, maybe two nights,
with my younger son Devin, whohad asthma as a as a toddler.
(04:12):
So I was your typical kind ofexhausted mom that morning that
he woke me up at 5:30 and hecame in with this beautiful
little um statement.
He said, Mama, the sun is up,which was permission for him to
get out of bed.
Permission.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
I mean, my child had the same, the same permission.
The sun is up.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Exactly.
The sun was up, and that washis permission to get out of
bed.
It was a rule you can't get outof bed until the sun's up in
the sky.
On this particular day, I wishI had said until mommy wakes up.
He woke up and asked me to umget him some breakfast.
And even though I was verytired, I got up with him and we
(04:57):
went into the kitchen.
And his request for breakfastthat morning was Rocky Road ice
cream or beef raviolis.
And so, being an exhausted mom,we went with the beef ravioles.
I didn't fight too much for ahealthier option that morning.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I was just too tired.
Very sophisticated palate for afour-year-old.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
He he he loved food, he loved everything about
living.
Um, but this morning he askedfor beef ravioles.
We got him as beef ravioles.
I turned on his favorite show,which was Thomas the Tank Engine
at the time, and gave him somecrayons and a piece of paper and
said, Sweetheart, I'm gonna goback and check on Devin.
(05:37):
And Drew was aware that hisbrother had asthma and he
understood that um Devonstruggled to breathe.
And so he was like, Okay, mama,I'll be right here.
And I said, I'll be right back,sweetheart.
As I went back to check onDevin, of course, he was
struggling to breathe.
And so, like every good mom,we, you know, I just sat beside
(05:58):
him, patting his back, justtrying to ease his, you know,
keep him calm so he would sleep.
And the next thing I realized,I woke up.
I did not realize I had evenfallen asleep.
But when I did wake up, I hadthat instinctual kind of feeling
that something was not quiteright.
(06:18):
And as I looked for Drew in thehouse, um, I was calling out to
him.
He wasn't in front of thetelevision where I'd left him.
Um, I began saying, Hey,sweetheart, mommy's looking for
you.
Please answer me with noresponse back.
So then I started to look inthe less obvious places, you
know, in you know, in closets,under under the bed.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Um Is he hiding?
Is it is it hiding?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Is it which would be normal for Drew?
He loved he loved to play hideand go seek.
And so initially I didn't thinkthat there was anything wrong,
but as you know, 15 minutes goby and there's no response, um
I'm becoming more and morepanicked.
And as I'm going through thehouse looking for him, I
(07:06):
happened to notice that oursliding glass door to the
backyard was open maybe about aninch than I hadn't noticed
before.
So I thought, okay, well, he'sjust outside and thought, okay,
I'll go find him.
So as I'm yeah, I I threw on adress and some flip-flops, and I
went outside and I startcalling for my for my little
(07:26):
boy, Drew.
You know, mommy's looking foryou.
And I I live in in rural inrural Arizona in in the middle
of massive farmland.
So I am surrounded by fields umand irrigation systems.
And um so I knew that therewere dangers around the house.
And the minute I couldn't startto find Drew, I did look in the
(07:50):
direction of a very largeirrigation canal where I saw his
footprints leading towards thatirrigation canal.
Um in Yuma, we have over 220miles of open irrigation
systems.
Um, so this is something thatis very common in our community.
(08:10):
It's something that I was veryaware of and educated my boys
that canals were not, you know,not to be played around, that
they were very serious andneeded to be taken as such.
Um, but Drew's adventurouslittle spirit, um, I I could
just see his footprints leadingthat direction.
And when I reached the canal,um there was evidence of where
(08:35):
he had fallen in.
And I immediately dropped to myknees and started to beg, pray,
you know, you know, just pleadwith God to please bring him
home safely.
And unfortunately for me, thatdid not happen.
Um, it was several hours later,and after a massive search that
(08:59):
was conducted by the our localresponder to the his body was
discovered.
Um and I was told that mylittle boy lost his life that
morning.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Melissa, I saying I'm sorry sounds so flat and
insufficient, um, despite thefact that this has been a number
of years for you and you'veclearly done magnificent work in
helping other people throughgrief like this.
But at what point did youdecide that your story could
(09:39):
help other people?
Because right before you and Icame on, we connected on the
Yuma piece.
Yuma was my my first televisionjob, right?
And one of the reasons I didnot stay as a traditional
reporter was because the ideathat someone's grief or loss or
(10:00):
tragedy could help was sort ofthe the pivotal point in trying
to talk to families.
I wasn't good at that.
The the I want to talk topeople about their hope, but
when they're ready, not in themoment, not when I'm trying to
get someone to talk, not when alot of reporters have that
(10:21):
gotcha moment.
At what point did you decidethis was a story you wanted to
tell and you thought I can helpsomeone else either through
grief they're going through orin a water safety aspect?
Because I know that that's beena part of your mission as well.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Um, that is honestly where the decision to share my
story began.
I was actually asked by um, Ifor, you know, I apologize, I
have forgotten her name, but uh,she was the I I guess the
organ, the organizer of theDebut Deck program in the
(11:01):
Imperial Valley.
And she reached out to me andexplained to me that even inside
of this unimaginable loss,there was this very unique
opportunity for me to educatefamilies specifically about
irrigation canal awareness andwater safety.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Which is very unique to the area where you were
living.
And I know that the people whoare listening, not everyone is
familiar with the the Yuma inthe Imperial Valley in Yuma, but
Yuma is at the crossroads ofCalifornia, the Mexico border,
and Arizona.
And it is very unique in thesense that so much of the
nation's farming happens in thatarea, and the canals never mind
(11:45):
the border, right?
So there is a river between theborder of the United States and
Mexico.
So there water safety is a hugeissue there.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
It is, and unfortunately, most of the
education is centered around umeither boating or swimming pools
in our community.
We we do have Martinez Lake, wehave the river, the Colorado
River, which people, you know,um they boat on and they use as
a way of cooling off in thesummer.
(12:16):
It gets very warm here.
And so the river and MartinezLake are obvious places to go to
cool off, along with swimmingpools.
Irrigation canals don't get asmuch exposure to the potential
dangers that they pose.
And as Yuma has grown, and ithas grown substantially in the
(12:36):
last 25 years, what we're seeingis that the developments are
going into what has beenhistorically, you know, left as
farmland.
And so these irrigation canalsare there.
They're already a part of theinfrastructure, if you will.
And so most people, when theygo and they buy homes in these
communities, they're not payingattention to what's on the
(12:57):
backside of that development.
Okay.
And so this was an opportunityfor me to once again go to the
most vulnerable, which are yourare going to be uh little, you
know, children under the age offive, but the highest
demographic of is little boysunder the age of five, and it it
(13:17):
increases in minorities.
That is little boys.
Um so I I decided that I wouldshare Drew's story in an effort
to help other families neverexperience this unimaginable
pain.
And at first it was an act ofservice in honor of Drew, but as
(13:41):
I stepped more into that role,I found that talking about my
story was really helping me finda pathway to move with my grief
and not feel stagnated by it.
Um, I was able to see at a veryearly stage the importance of
sharing Drew's story because itdid, it was a very tragic
(14:07):
experience in my communityrallied around our family.
And so everybody was very awareof what had happened.
But I wanted to reach Drew'speers, and so I focused on going
into preschools.
And you can imagine being amother who's just buried her son
six months ago and going in andlooking at the beautiful faces
(14:30):
of all of these innocent littleones.
It was it was hard in thebeginning, but the when I leaned
into that, I just found astrength and resilience and a
partnership with Drew, if youwill, okay, to continue sharing
his story.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
I know you said that you it's almost like you're
channeling strength from him,right?
Because you're leaning into abit of your pain and loss, but
recognizing that he's there withyou to help his peers to stay
(15:09):
safe.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
I um I have a pretty unique relationship with my
grief in that I have never seengrief just as this place where
love has nowhere to go.
I have always felt that mygrief was love's presence
calling forward my consciousnessto recognize its presence right
(15:33):
here, right now.
I don't ever think of Drew asbeyond my reach.
All I have to do is think aboutmy love for him, and I'm
instantly connected to him.
That love has propelled notonly me forward, it's it's been
the impetus behind a movement.
I have taken my story and myjourney of learning to live
(15:57):
alongside my grief and learning,learning to how to allow my
life to bloom, even though Ihave had significant loss in a
way that I know it would nothave been possible had I not had
the beautiful experience ofbeing Drew Smong for even that
short, brief four and a halfyear period of time.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
It is such a tremendous loss.
And I in listening to some ofyour podcasts and in reading
some of what you've written, I Irecognize one of the things
that that I heard you say thatis so tremendously beautiful.
And I I have talked about griefon the podcast before.
Um, right when I was gettingready to launch, I lost a
(16:40):
significant other at the time.
And that was two and a halfyears ago.
And it gutted me.
Uh, I had never experiencedloss like that.
And I found myself very much ina in an unknown, hopeless
place.
And I had never been that girl.
I had never been someone whocouldn't see the light on the
(17:02):
other side.
But I realized that that waspart of the journey that I
needed to go through in order tobirth this podcast too, in
order to be able to have theseconversations, to recognize what
it looks like to not have hopeand to be hope-filled.
And you talked about receivinga letter from another mother who
(17:25):
had experienced unimaginableloss.
And in that letter, she talkedto you or she encouraged you to
make a choice to live, a choiceto choose joy, to choose to
actively make positive choicesin your life.
Because at this point, despitethe loss, the loss isn't going
(17:48):
to change, but that you have theability to choose what happens
next.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I think that was the greatest um gift inside of her
message is this acknowledgementof the power of our our ability
to choose.
And even in the midst of grief,we have choices.
We have choices in how we allowourselves to think about our
loved ones.
We uh it it's we we havechoices in how we care for
(18:16):
ourselves as we are grieving.
There are endless choices thatwe make.
And even to not choose is tochoose.
And she was very clear abouthow important it was to make
sure that my choices alignedwith the life that I envisioned
for myself, one that stillincluded things like joy and
(18:37):
happiness, um, fulfillment andmeaning.
And she was very honest.
And I appreciated that honesty.
I appreciated that she too feltresponsible for the accident
that happened to her child, muchlike I did.
I fell asleep.
And the the journey offorgiving myself for that has,
(18:59):
you know, it was it took years.
It took years and years andyears.
But her letter was sort of likemy my um my lighthouse, if you
will, in in the storm.
And and the thing about griefis that it has so many different
iterations.
It it just when you think thatyou have gotten to a place of
(19:21):
stability, there'll be a waveand it will send you back into
what feels like the verybeginning phases.
And what I've come tounderstand is that grief, grief
is it it's a bit of a dance.
It the tempo changes, the thesteps change, and you just have
to be willing to listen.
Listen to the rhythm, find youryour place inside of that.
(19:43):
Um, but the other thing that Ihonestly took from that letter
was empowerment.
It was up to me to decide whatmy life would become.
And the grief didn't get to bethe end all be all, that I still
had this.
Choice, this ability to takethis experience and use it for a
(20:04):
greater good, for a deeperpurpose.
And that's what I held on to.
And her letter absolutely cameat a pivotal time in my life.
I was riddled with, I guess tosay self-hatred wouldn't be
accurate.
I couldn't forgive myself.
I couldn't imagine how I couldbe a good mother going forward
(20:25):
to Devin.
How could he be safe around meif I fell asleep with, you know,
and Drew had this accident?
What else could I make a, youknow, what else could I miss and
potentially hurt my remainingson?
And so it took me a long timeto really settle into this idea
that I was a good mother the dayof the accident, and I have
(20:46):
always remained a good mother.
And that journey of forgivingmyself has been one of the gifts
that her letter was reallyresponsible for because she said
things to me that I needed tohear.
And because it was coming froma mother who I felt really did
see me accurately, it reached mein a way where no one else
(21:08):
could.
There were so many well-meaningpeople, you know, clergy and
friends and family andcounselors and therapists, you
name it.
I had a huge support group.
But the words of a mother whohad a very similar experience,
you know.
Yeah, living your experience.
Yeah.
It was credible in a way thatcut through the pain and reached
(21:33):
my heart.
And that was the first timethat I felt something that I
would say was it resembled hope.
I think it was my pleading withGod in that moment to let me
have hope, that to give me somekind of hope, that this
(21:53):
experience would not be the onlything that I would come to
know, that I would still be ableto have joy and to seek out
purpose and meaning throughservice and through sharing
Drew's story.
And then from there it becametalking about my journey.
Um I remember the first time uhI was approached after I had
(22:17):
been on stage.
Um, I had written a book calledLessons from Neverland that
talked about um some of my myexperiences with with grief and
trauma from a young age throughDrew's passing.
And I had been asked to speakat the um at the Women's
Economic Forum in Delhi, India.
(22:38):
And so I found myself on astage just across the world and
talking about how I used serviceand purpose as a vehicle to
deepen my experience with mygrief in a way that felt
foundational, that felt like itpropelled me forward and gave me
(22:59):
a purpose and a reason forcontinuing to live, but not just
live in existence, but tothrive, to really live life with
joy and happiness, which feltcompletely gone in the
beginning.
And so as I finished mypresentation, um, I come off
(23:20):
stage and there is a line ofwomen that are forming.
And these women came up to mewith tears in their eyes.
And this one question, whichwas, How did I do this?
How did I heal from all ofthat?
How did I take this experienceand find a way to move forward?
(23:41):
Because they were all dealingwith a different type of grief,
but they were all grieving andthey were desperate to
understand how it was that Icould be the person that they
saw on stage, the woman thatthat was doing well and and had
you know is productive and I wascontributing and making a
(24:04):
difference.
They wanted to they wanted tounderstand how I arrived at that
point because they too wantedto take their grief and
transform it into something morethan just the pain that they
were experiencing.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
What did you say?
I mean, I I there's part of methat feels as though it was less
having arrived and more in theprocess of constantly arriving.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Absolutely.
To be honest with you, itforced me to get very clear
about how to answer thatquestion.
I I had my journey, I had myexperiences, but I never really
stopped to be very thoughtfulabout what were those practices
that really did help me movemyself forward in a meaningful
(24:51):
and subs and sustained way.
And that's what led to mysecond book, which is Dear Drew
Creating a Life Bigger ThanGrief.
It's my process.
It's the process that I took.
Um, Teresa gave me thisbeautiful letter as an
inspiration, but it was a letterwithout direction.
And I wanted to go the nextstep.
(25:11):
And so I included in my in mybook, Dear Drew, Creating a Life
Bigger Than Grief, my story,the practices that I studied,
the um the different modalitiesof healing that I I explored in
my pursuit to bring myself backto what I consider a place of
(25:31):
wholeness, a place of safety, aplace of love, self-love and
self-trust again.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
And what do you think has been most fundamental for
you?
Like what is when I think oflike when I think about you
being whole of the of the thingsthat you've mentioned in terms
of what was so gutting for you,in addition to losing Drew, a
big part of this is that you hadto get to a place where you
(25:59):
forgave yourself.
And I think that as mothers,there's there's a piece of us
that's born with guilt, right?
We're we're always worried thatwe're not feeding them right
and we're not getting them tosleep on time, and do they know
that we love them?
And and that's that's innate inus without having experienced
the loss you experienced, right?
So, how did you reach a point?
(26:22):
And and it sounds as though youhave, so if you haven't fully
reached that, you're welcome tosay that as well.
But how do you how did youreach a point where you feel as
though I have forgiven myself?
I've reached a point where I Iam not carrying around the guilt
of that.
I I can still experience theloss and the pain and the grief,
but I don't blame myself.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Um, that question is one of the most uh difficult to
answer because I think ithappened, it happened in
iterations and it happened in inyou know over time, but it did
occur.
Um and I'm super honest aboutmy my my journey of healing.
Um there were years where Ifelt like I've really, I've
(27:08):
really, you know, I've reallytaken this experience and and
and learned from it and I'vegrown from it, only to a year
later feel like I'm right backat the very beginning and it's
25 years later.
But it but the the the nuancesof grief are hard to articulate
unless you're in the experience.
There are so many things thatyou don't anticipate as being
(27:33):
triggering, but they are.
And right now, facing theholidays, this is a very acute
time.
It feels like grief canintensify.
And I think that happens, butyou know, it makes sense to me
that this is a season wheregathering and family and
(27:53):
connection is at the forefrontof everything that we're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
We gather it's every commercial, it's every even if
even if you're not activelydoing it, it's in everything we
see.
So how do you insulate, prepareyourself, or meet it head on
and help yourself or guidesomeone else the way Teresa
(28:20):
guided you through this process?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
I I encourage everyone to be honest with where
they're at and to be as presentas they can be for as long as
it makes sense for them.
I think that grief sometimes wehave to we have to treat it
like an injury at times.
We we are tender, we are we area bit more raw and our emotions
(28:47):
are more on the surface, butthat doesn't mean that the
holidays can't still be joyful.
We just have to approach themdifferently.
We have to make room for boththe grief and the grace, for the
gratitude and the ache.
It's all a part of thisjourney.
And I think the more honestpeople are, grievers are, me in
(29:09):
particular, it's been a personalchoice to be very honest about
what this experience is likebecause I know that sometimes
people feel like it's onlyhappening to them, and that all
of these internal thoughts andfeelings, the things that kind
of creep in and quietly whisper,you know, it was all your
fault, or, you know, if only youhadn't fallen asleep, your
(29:32):
family would still be together.
All of that isn't part of this.
And the holidays can sometimesintensify that.
But I have there, there areways that we can help help
offset that, help, help to quietthat narrative and then and
then to refocus our mind on whatstill remains.
Even though Drew isn'tphysically with me, there is so
(29:54):
much of Drew, Drew's life andlegacy that remain, and that's
what I choose to focus on.
The holidays presentedchallenges initially, but I've
come to understand and embracethe fact that traditions can
change.
And I make room for Drew inevery holiday that we celebrate
by by encouraging people to talkabout him, to share their
(30:16):
memories of him.
I went as far one year to askfor nothing more than other
people's memories of Drewwritten down on a card.
I wanted to know what theythought of him.
I wanted to know what theirexperiences were with him.
And those cards and thosememories have been the greatest
treasures of my life because nowI get to not only experience my
(30:40):
son in my memories, I get tolayer other people's on top of
it.
And now Drew feels even morepresent in the holidays than he
did.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
What a beautiful idea for a gift, right?
For someone who is experiencinggrief around the holidays to
suggest to the people they love,you know, as it as an exchange
for someone who might be missingfrom the table that people
write down and share memories ofthe person they're missing.
Um, I have a young friend whorecently her mother, and I I
(31:13):
told her, I suggested to herthat one of the things heading
into the holidays that she does,she gives herself grace.
Yeah.
But if she's feeling up to it,she goes.
If she feels like she's beenthere for 15 minutes and she
can't people, it's okay to gohome.
It's okay to hug everybody andsay, I this is all I have in me
right now.
Um, because I I find that thatgrief really is that dance
(31:36):
partner that you're not sure ifthey're gonna step on your toes
or gonna swing you around theroom.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Absolutely.
And um, I think that peoplethat are around a person that is
struggling with acute loss, ormaybe it's not acute, but it's
it's still a present loss.
The the sadness is palpable orthe the loss is is is certainly
felt to not shy away fromallowing them to talk about
(32:04):
their loved one.
And and I I have I have invitedpeople to do it in a few
different ways.
Um when we were sitting aroundthe table, if somebody felt
inspired to talk about Drew, itwas it was completely fine.
I was fine with that.
And I let everyone know thattalking about Drew isn't
painful, it's not talking aboutDrew and thinking that somehow
(32:27):
we have to avoid the topic ofhis life.
That was more painful.
And so I think there is alittle bit that the breever can
do to help people understandwhere to meet them through
communication.
Um, but it's also important forsupporters to understand that
presence is so much moreimportant than platitude.
(32:50):
You don't have to havesomething to say.
Clichés sometimes are not, orthey're not the most effective
things to say because it doesn'talways reflect the the net the
enormity of where a person is.
And saying something like thiswas God's plan, or now this
person is an angel in heaven canfeel pretty dismissive of the
(33:11):
pain of a person that a personis experiencing today.
So I often say it's better tosay, I'm really not sure what to
say, but I'm thinking of them,and I'm sure you are too.
If you want to talk about theirlife, or is it okay if we do
talk about it?
Just asking is so much betterthan making assumptions that
(33:31):
it's too painful and avoidingit, and or yeah, just just
trying to pretend like theaccident or the person isn't
there, but it isn't needed to bespoken about.
I think just giving people roomto say, I miss this person.
I I I have fond memories ofthis, I wish that they were
(33:53):
still here, all of that shouldbe permissible in the holidays
without people fearing that theperson that is going through
this experience is going to fallapart.
I think that, you know,brievers, we're under a lot of
pressure.
It feels like we got to get putunder a bit of a microscope
this time of year.
Like, can you manage this?
Are you okay?
Those questions can sometimesbe a little destabilizing.
(34:16):
Again, presence, being there.
You know, would you like adrink?
You know, you want to go for awalk, just little things like
that are so much more helpfulthan saying something that you
you really don't know how itwill land.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You make an important point, though, that those of us
going through grief can doourselves a great service by
trying to communicate what weneed.
Because I know that one of thethings my therapist said to me,
I went, I had a traditionaltherapist and I went to an
(34:50):
additional grief therapist atthe time.
And she said, Danielle, whatpeople don't understand is that
your entire life is turnedupside down.
Not only are you going throughthis tremendous loss, but your
entire life is being rearranged.
Your people are in threedifferent buckets.
There are the people who areshowing up for you, the people
who are completely disappearing,and the people who are kind of
showing up and sometimes sayingthe right thing and and
(35:12):
sometimes not, but at leastthey're trying.
The challenge is that everyoneyou were positive was going to
be in your I'm here for youbucket.
Many of those people are now inthe I don't know where they
went bucket.
Wow.
Because they decided I don'tknow what to say, better to say
nothing.
And one of the things I learnedthrough grief is that though it
(35:33):
is the one universal experiencewe will all have, it is the one
we're the least equipped tohandle.
People don't know what to do orsay, and so they frequently
walk away, disappear, step backbecause they're afraid of saying
the wrong thing.
And I prefer, I learned thatthe most important thing is to
(35:54):
show up, even if you're not evenif you're showing up with, I
don't have the right words, Ican't make this better, but I
love you.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yes.
I that's what I mean bypresence over platitude.
Um, not knowing what to sayisn't the worst thing that can
happen.
Not knowing what to say andavoiding the person that is
suffering and grieving, that isthe greater tragedy.
And it's a second wave of lossbecause isolation is real.
(36:23):
People don't know what to say.
And I have found thatparticularly parents of younger
children, it's it's verydifficult for other people to
know how to talk to them.
Is it I remember being told, Iwasn't sure if I should or
shouldn't invite your son to mydaughter's birthday party
because it might be triggeringfor you.
(36:45):
And I remember thinking thatwas probably one of the most
honest things a person had saidto me.
And I actually was moreappreciative of their honesty
because it gave me theopportunity to say, you know
what?
I will be okay.
I can manage this.
And here's, here's, here's,here, I'll go a step further.
If I can't, I'll be the firstone to let you know and ask for
(37:10):
for your support.
But if it's okay with you, I'dlove for Devin to to attend.
I we'd love to try.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Maybe you could have a friend take him or a
grandparent or a neighbor, ormaybe, you know what, offer to
pick him up.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, you know, there's lots of things.
I actually ended up taking himand I I I took the intentional
time to, I knew a lot of thefamilies that were going to be
there, and I just said, hey,listen, we're going.
And Devin's very excited.
But if you see me take a minutewhere I need to walk to the
backyard or just take a minuteto myself, give me a moment.
(37:47):
Let me have just a minute tocenter myself.
I will come back to the party,or I will communicate that I
need to step out and I'll comeback and pick them up.
I just have learned thatcommunication solved so many
awkward moments and like weirdum assumptions that people had
(38:10):
about what would be too much forme.
It was such a clarifying andhonestly healing experience just
to be asked and then to give anhonest response and say, I
don't know how I'm going to bethat day.
But if I run into trouble, I'llI'll be the first one to let
you know.
I don't want to, you know,detract from the celebration.
(38:31):
I know that this will be hard.
I'm prepared and I'm gonna I'lldo my best.
But here's here's what Ipromise that I will make sure
that I'm managing myself in sucha way as to not to detract from
the celebration.
But I'm also going in with alot of optimism that this is
gonna be a wonderful experiencefor all of us.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Good for you.
Melissa, how do you definehope?
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Hope for me is the ability to see beyond my
circumstances and to align withall of the possibilities that
still remain.
That's beautiful.
That's beautiful.
So that says that we wereprepared to answer that.
You know, um well, it's it'sit's something I've thought
quite a lot about.
(39:18):
Um, and it's honestly hope isthe first chapter of my book,
Dear Drew Creating a Life BiggerThan Grief, because it is such
a pivotal and foundational partof this journey that I have been
on for the last 25, almost 26years now.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Yeah, I can't even imagine.
But I what I do find, I find, Ifeel as though hope could title
almost every chapter of whatyou've done because you you're
offering hope in the lessons ofwater safety, and you're
offering hope in community, andyou're offering hope in in the
(39:56):
experience of forgiveness, andyou're offering hope in.
How to choose joy.
And while Teresa wrote you whathas turned out to be a love
letter that that gave you hope,it sounds to me as though, dear
Drew, is your version of thatlove letter to reach as many
people as possible?
(40:17):
Is there anything that youwould say to somebody
individually who you knew wasstruggling, in addition to
saying everything else that Ihave wrapped up in a bow is in
the book?
But if I could give you onepiece of advice or one thing to
hang on to, it would be this.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Absolutely.
Um, that you don't have tofigure it all out to begin, that
your journey towards healing isas simple and as difficult as
choosing to take that first steptowards what aligns with
bringing you a sense ofwholeness, a sense of safety
that aligns you with the abilityto look at your choices and
(41:02):
forgive yourself and to loveyourself through your
imperfections.
There's not a single perfectparent that I've ever met.
I don't think I will ever meetthe perfect parent.
We all have to have grace foreach other, but most
importantly, we have to learnhow to extend it to ourselves in
order for it to be reallyuseful and for us to really
(41:23):
understand what it means to havegrace.
When you can have grace foryour own faults, your own
missteps, whatever they mightbe, or however you choose to
look at the events of your life,when you have the ability to
hold grace for yourself and thenextend it to yourself.
That is one of the most healingand loving acts that you can
(41:45):
take.
And it is simple as justholding that space and saying, I
am worthy of a life that'sbigger than this pain.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Oh, Melissa, I am so truly sorry that you experienced
the heartbreaking loss of Drew.
Thank you.
And I am so grateful the worldhas you.
Um, I'm so grateful for theheart and love and wisdom that
you have the ability that youare choosing to share with
(42:15):
people because it is a gift.
Um, not everyone is able tochoose the way you have, and you
are by example, offering hopethat it can happen.
And I so appreciate you takingtime with us.
Where can where can ourlisteners find you?
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Um, my website is melissahall.com, and that's M E
L I S S A H U L L dot com.
You will find water safetyeducation resources there.
You will find my weekly blog,you will find resources to help
support you or someone you lovethrough the holiday season
that's craving.
You can just go there.
(42:58):
You can also find the link tomy book there as well.
You are a gift.
Is there anything I did not askyou that you would like to
share?
You know, I I no, I think thiswas a wonderful conversation.
And I thank you so much forallowing me to share my story
and my love of my beautiful sonDrew with your audience today.
(43:18):
Um, it's been a real pleasure.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Thank you for being here.
And friends, as always, uh itis such a gift to have you here
as part of this community.
Whether this is the first timeyou are joining us or you are a
regular listener, it means somuch that you are here.
I hope that this conversationwith Melissa has touched you the
(43:43):
way it has touched me, and thatthere will be a few sentences
or a tidbit or a piece of heradvice or her book that you want
to share with someone elsebecause you know someone you
love needs to hear it as well.
Please continue to come backand listen to our conversations
and share this episode.
(44:03):
And please, until we see at youagain, take very good care of
you.
Thanks for being here.
Naturally, it's important tothank the people who support and
sponsor the podcast.
This episode is supported byChris Dully, a trusted criminal
defense attorney and friend ofmine here in St.
Louis, who believes in secondchances and solid
(44:26):
representation.
Whether you're facing a DWI,felony, or traffic issue, Chris
handles your case personallywith clarity, compassion, and
over 15 years of experience.
When things feel uncertain, ithelps to have someone steady in
your corner.
Call 314 384 4000 or 314 DUIHelp, or you can visit
Dulilawfirm.com to schedule yourfree consultation.
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