October 17, 2025 • 45 mins
Some seasons of my life, loneliness wasn’t a passing mood—it was the air I breathed. I didn’t always call it by name, but my body did: tight chest, racing thoughts, that sense of being “with people” and still feeling alone. In this conversation, I sit down with Lucy Rose, founder of The Cost of Loneliness Project, to talk honestly about what chronic loneliness does to us—and how we can gently stitch connection back into our days.
We weave together science and story: cortisol and inflammation, yes—but also travel schedules that hollow you out, the “life quakes” that upend everything, and the small, human habits that actually help. If you’ve ever felt unseen in a crowded room (hi, same), this one’s for you.
What we get into:
- Chronic vs. passing lonely: how to tell when it’s a blue day…and when it’s a pattern your body is carrying.
- Stress biology, plainly: why loneliness spikes cortisol, chips away at immunity, and raises risks for heart disease—and possibly dementia.
- Gendered patterns: how many women and men are socialized to buffer loneliness differently (and what to do about it).
- Free connection practices: ask better questions, listen longer, volunteer shoulder-to-shoulder, check on one person today.
- For kids & teens: signs teachers/parents can watch for—and simple ways to bring a child back into the circle.
- Hope with boundaries: when hope fuels healing…and when it keeps us stuck in something that isn’t changing.
If this meets you where you are, share it with someone who might need the language—and the nudge—to reconnect. And as always, I’m glad you’re here.
Connect with Lucy Rose and learn more about the Cost of Loneliness Project.
Thank you for listening to Hope Comes to Visit. If this conversation helps, follow the show, share it with someone who needs hope today, and leave a review - it helps others find their way to these conversations.
New episodes drop every Monday, so you can begin your week with a little light and a lot of hope.
For more stories, reflections, and ways to connect, visit www.DanielleElliottSmith.com or follow along on Instagram @daniellesmithtv and @HopeComestoVisit
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I've had what I might call a life quake, and I'm
(00:02):
quite sure I did not coin thatterm.
I don't know where it came from,so I can't give credit to
anyone.
But you know, a number of thingskind of happened at the same
time from death of a mom to, youknow, um moving to my kids
moving away to being diagnosedwith breast cancer, all kinds of
things happen simultaneously.
(00:23):
And you realize in those momentsjust how important hope is to go
where you are.
Because it is that hope, Ithink, that says, yes, I can,
and there is a light here.
SPEAKER_02 (00:44):
Hi, friends, I'm Danielle Elliott Smith, and this
is Hope Comes to Visit.
Here on the podcast, we listendeeply, learn boldly, and try to
leave with one small step.
Our guest today is here to talkto us about something so many of
us have felt (00:58):
loneliness.
She calls it a silent publichealth crisis.
Lucy Rose is the founder andpresident of the Cost of
Loneliness Project.
Lucy's Lucy's pronouns are she,her, and hers.
Lucy, I'm so delighted to haveyou here.
I am loneliness is something Ihave felt many, many times in my
(01:22):
life.
And I don't know that I haveever can recognized it as a
public health crisis, but Icertainly know that it's
something so many people havefelt at one time or another.
And I'm delighted to have youhere to talk about it.
How are you today?
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
Thank you for asking.
Just the start of that is alovely way to help dispel
loneliness, isn't it?
Thank you.
Um, I'm doing very well.
Thank you.
And thanks for having me.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
What made you decide to start a project like this?
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Yeah, it's a great question.
Um, I was actually walkingaround the periphery of Central
Park with my daughter.
And I was at a certain age inlife and a certain stage, and
have had a really great fun timein my career and doing what I
do.
And I just, it just reallyoccurred to me, I really wanted
to do something in addition towhat I was doing.
(02:20):
There was something else in lifeI needed to do and give back.
And as I started thinking whatthat was, um, I realized I was
lonely, Danielle, and how is itimpacting me?
And then the more I thoughtabout that, the more research I
did, the more I realized what ahuge, as you say, public health
crisis it really is.
And at that time, eight yearsago, when I first started this,
(02:43):
it wasn't in the news.
You weren't hearing the TodayShow folks talk about loneliness
or any of that like we do today.
It was very quiet.
Um, but I so I started doingresearch and I realized that was
for me, and there's no religiousintent overtone here at all, but
almost like a calling.
It was something that I had todo was to bring this to the
(03:04):
forefront and see if we can't dosomething about demystifying
this, making it okay to talkabout, um, and then helping
folks hold their hand, helpingthem come back to a place where
they feel heard, which, as youknow, was your your work.
Um, being heard is that firststep in healing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
Absolutely.
What a beautiful, and and Ibelieve that we are called to do
certain things.
I believe that much like I'mdoing work that I know I'm
supposed to be doing, right?
So well, let's talk a little bitabout your background, right?
So this is uh a little bit of adeparture, but also in your
wheelhouse.
So um yeah, what had you beendoing up to this point?
SPEAKER_01 (03:47):
Yeah, it is a bit of a departure, and it is also
consistent.
You're absolutely right.
I've been working in the publichealth arena my entire
professional life.
I'm actually a physicianassistant by training as well,
so I do have a clinicalbackground, but I will preface
this by saying I am not atherapist.
So anything that we talk abouttoday could even come close to
sounding to anyone like thatmight be the case, it's not
(04:09):
true.
Um, I've just had the same livedexperiences everyone else has,
and I'm delighted to share whatI've learned.
Um, but yes, I have had my ownbusiness now for 25 years, I
think this year.
Um I worked at the FEDA DrugAdministration for a while in my
life, um, running the groupthere that regulates
advertising, promotion,prescription drugs.
(04:30):
But for this, more importantly,I think was head of
communications for F for a partof FDA for a number of years.
Um then I've run this businessfor a long time, working in
public health, really, trying toensure that all the ways that
pharmaceutical companies, as anexample, promote their
prescription drugs are truthfuland not misleading, so that your
(04:51):
healthcare providers and you getthe information you need to best
use those products.
Um it's kept me very involved inthinking about public health and
being a part of that ecosystemthat says, how can we help
people live a healthier, happierlife?
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
So one of my ethos for the longest time has always
been, how can I help?
Um, when I was working in therecovery space, I would answer
my phone, how can I help?
Uh, because I think that thatvery simple sentence allows
people to feel as though theycan share and that you are
(05:29):
someone who wants to make adifference in some capacity.
When you realized that thisplace of loneliness was
something you wanted to diveinto, yeah.
Was it a surprise when youstarted to uncover some of the
statistics?
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Uh yeah, let me back up just one second because I
think this is relevant to thatquestion.
Um, yes, it was a surprise.
A shock was a surprise how manypeople in this country
self-report that they'reexperiencing chronic loneliness.
And that's what this is reallyabout, not the situational
loneliness that you feel whenyou're a young person going to a
dance, standing in the corner,and you go, oh my gosh, I'm so
(06:11):
lonely tonight.
My friend didn't come with me.
But a chronic feeling of I don'thave what I need in terms of
supporting me emotionally andwhat that is.
But my loneliness actually camefrom traveling all the time.
Right.
Six days a week for 20 years.
I was on the road.
You're looking at someone withum 8 million Marriott points and
(06:31):
5 million United Miles as anexample, who's on the road all
the time.
And no time to really buildthose foundational relationships
that are necessary to helpmitigate the loneliness.
Um, so I it's a real livedexperience for me.
And it caused every it causedphysical ramifications and all
kinds of other things for me.
But yes, I was shocked at thenumbers of people that
(06:54):
self-report that they arechronically lonely and the
impact that that makes on theirlife as I started doing that
research.
Because the impact was huge.
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
So, what is that impact?
What does that impact typicallylook like?
Because I've I've been doing alot of research lately on what
on what a system we have, right?
On how interconnected we are interms of our body responding to
outside stimuli and andenvironmental issues and and why
(07:26):
we get depressed or anxious orour muscles get tight, depending
on what's happening.
You know, recognizing in myolder age how truly phenomenal
our bodies are and what I can bedoing to better serve myself,
right?
So recognizing how lonelinesscould potentially affect you
(07:48):
physically or in in what othercapacities it could.
So, what did you learn?
SPEAKER_01 (07:52):
Well, I've learned a lot, and I continue to learn
every day.
Uh, right now, I just dived inyesterday to a new book, for me
at least, called The Biology ofTrauma by Amy Apijin, which is
an amazing look inside whathappens to all of us as we
respond to trauma of any sort uhfrom a physiological
perspective.
But basically, let's just takethis to the highest level.
(08:14):
When we have any kind of stress,and of course, loneliness is a
form of chronic stress when youhave it chronically.
Anytime we do, our body releaseshormones.
We've all heard of those.
The most important one in thiscase is one called cortisol.
And it's that hormone that says,oh my gosh, I'm scared to death.
How fast can I run?
And your heart beats faster andyour blood pressure goes up and
(08:35):
you breathe faster, and it givesyou that ability to do different
things to respond to fear or to,in this case, um loneliness or
stress.
Um, as the hormone comes out,that's it's really important if
you're in a situation, that's anacute situation you need to run
from.
It's not good for you if itchronically bathes your cells
(08:56):
with this hormone so that you'reconstantly on notice, in
essence.
And this can cause animmunological response that
lowers your ability to fightinfection, as an example.
That also over time canactually, and there's causality
here, not just correlation, cancause cancer.
And we believe that theinflammation may also have an
(09:17):
impact on causing dementia overtime.
We know that it causes heartdisease.
And the other thing it oftencauses is folks, Daniel, go into
a soothing need because you'reyou're chronically there.
You know, I think of the goldengirls and them eating their ice
cream at night, you know, andall of that from stress.
Um, as we do that, the otherthings that it can cause can be
(09:40):
mental, can be things like uhturning to drinking or other
kinds of drugs or overeating orwhatever it may be, all of which
also then can add to thosephysiological issues that can be
damaging to all of us.
SPEAKER_02 (09:53):
That makes me think.
I mean, when you said thedementia piece made me think
that there must be, and again,I'm not a doctor clearly, but
there I have seen studies thatrelate to length of life and
friendships, right?
Like people who have friendshipsand and are out and social tend
(10:19):
to live longer than people whoare alone or isolate.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
Yes, that is absolutely the case.
And it's one of those issuesthat Fox has studied for a long
time.
And one thing that, you know, italso perhaps plays into some
gender differences.
And I'm always very careful.
I don't like to broad brushanything.
Right.
But as we think about some ofthe ways we have been socialized
historically, I'm just sayingwith women perhaps often
(10:47):
building more and deeperfriendships than what we've
encouraged men to do over time,you see a difference there as
well.
And that's becoming more andmore clear, I think, and evident
in terms of research.
But just as a quick example, itis not uncommon for a woman to
have a fairly significant lifeafter her spouse might die, her
(11:07):
husband dies.
It is very common for the malemember of that group, if it's a
heterosexual marriage that way,to die much more quickly when
their wife does, because theydon't have that community, that
friendset that's so important tosupport them again.
And that's what reallyloneliness is.
It's not having what you need tosupport you when you need it.
(11:30):
Um, and that's very devastatingin so many ways.
There's a cost to pay for theindividual, there's a cost to
pay at the uh community levelwhen folks are lonely and not
out and about and doing things,and at our societal level.
Um, even in terms of business,there's a productivity cost when
people are not there.
So all kinds of things happen asa result of this.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
Okay, so we we've used the word cost a few times.
So when we talk about the costof loneliness project, let's
talk about the project itself.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
Yeah, um, I this project is really designed to do
everything we can to do botheducation, just like we are
today, about what loneliness isand why it is important to
recognize that, destigmatizethat, normalize that, and come
up with opportunities to createconnections.
What do they look like?
What do they look like in termsof how we live in community, how
(12:24):
we create our cities and buildthose cities to encourage
connections, how we and ourtowns bring those together, all
those things.
So what we are trying to do istwofold, really, is to educate
people as to what this is andwhy it's so important, but also
to create opportunities forconnection and to create
awareness, to your pointexactly, about how important
(12:47):
those connections are to all ofus, those friendsets, those
people who support us the most,and bring all the folks together
as best we can to createawareness about building
cultures of community, be it inyour own community, be it in
your workplace, wherever thatis.
So that's what we're all about.
And there are lots of ways thatwe're doing that that folks can
(13:09):
find actually on our website.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
That's fantastic.
How can we do that in ourcommunities?
What are some of the best wayswe can create community if I am
an individual who finds myselffeeling a little lost, a little
like I'm I'm listening now andI'm thinking, okay, this sounds
(13:31):
like me.
I've I've been feeling lonely.
I've I've felt a bit lost and abit out of place.
And I'm wondering what's thefirst step?
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
You know, when you asked me a few minutes ago about
numbers, um, if there are peoplefeeling right now, gosh, it
sounds like me or my grandson ormy mom or whomever that may be,
you're not alone.
Let's just say that first.
Um, you know this when I saidself-reporting, somewhere
between, and this variesdepending on which study you're
looking at, but somewherebetween 30 and 50 percent of the
(14:04):
adults in this countryself-report that they are
chronically lonely.
Um, that's a huge number.
So you're not alone.
And I said adults, one of mybiggest worries is our children.
You know, what do we do at ourchildren?
And I I'll go there with ourcommunity first right now in
terms of identifying that.
Because I think one of theissues for me is how can we
(14:26):
anticipate someone might becomelonely?
What does that look like?
And how can we build things into recognize those opportunities
and create connections for thosepeople, create social skills
that they may need?
So, as we look at this, for meas children, now let's just
think about that.
How do we educate our teachersas to what to look for?
What does that look like?
(14:47):
Okay, how do they then have thetoolkits or what toolkits can we
provide those teachers to helpthem understand what they can do
for the children that they doidentify and recognize?
How do they have thoseconversations with the parents?
You know, and so I think as acommunity we can come together.
I think the physicians in acommunity and the mental health
providers can certainly cometogether as well and put this as
(15:11):
a high priority in all of theinteractions of the work they do
and education for all of theirfolks.
Ask those questions when you runinto when your patients come in
or when your clients come in,depending on what you're doing.
Um, communities as a whole,okay, the businesses can come
together, okay, especially inour world right now, where half
of us are hybrid.
(15:32):
We don't even have the watercooler anymore.
What can they do for all thefolks that work for them and
with them to help them withconnections?
And what does that look like?
There are lots of ways, I think,if a community pays attention,
volunteering.
How can we volunteer?
Might we have a communitySaturday volunteer day where
everybody comes out like they doin Rwanda uh one Saturday month
(15:55):
and volunteers.
And there are lots and lots ofopportunities for people to
connect and projects they wantto work on.
Um I think we have to thinkdifferently.
SPEAKER_02 (16:05):
I know there are some there are some companies
that do things like that.
My fiance works for MasterCard,and part of MasterCard's ethos
is to encourage volunteerism.
I mean, they're there and anumber of their employees get
time off in order to volunteer,right?
So, but if we start, like youwere starting to say, if we
(16:27):
start with the younger kids,what could a teacher do in a
school classroom to encourage orto help a child that seems to be
moving towards a if they'rerecognizing signs of loneliness?
(16:49):
Or what are the signs ofloneliness that a teacher might
recognize?
SPEAKER_01 (16:54):
Teacher might recognize, and again, I think
it's really critical to pausejust for a second and recognize
the fact that lonelinessmanifests itself differently in
each person that feels lonely.
SPEAKER_02 (17:04):
Fair enough.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
There's of course not a true one size fits all
because it's psychic pain,Danielle.
Clearly, what you might seebefore, I might say no, no, it's
a 10, you know, or whatever.
I don't know.
Um, but how how a teacher mightnotice is a child withdrawing?
Is a child not doing the samekind of work that they're used
to doing?
So a B student might become a Dstudent.
(17:27):
Um, they might not want to jointhe playground activity,
whatever that may be, and bestandoffish, or suddenly become
quieter.
There are all kinds of ways thata teacher, I think, may do it.
And of course, they cananticipate it for some.
The new kid on the block whojust moved into the bizarre
doesn't already have thosefriends.
Um, so as you were looking, andthe same with parents, as we
(17:48):
look at our children, you know,are we seeing anything change in
their life?
Are they still making thosephone calls at night or texting
nowadays?
I guess it's not the phone call,all their friends when they get
home from school and engaged andall of that.
Um, and once you do, once yousee that, obviously then a
teacher can think creatively asto how to bring that person in
(18:08):
on their own terms so thatthey're comfortable.
And it's clearly important todifferentiate between someone
who's just shy and someone who'svery lonely as an example.
Um how do we bring them into aconversation as an example that
you're having in the readinggroup?
How do you move them into thegroup physically so that they
feel comfortable and confident?
How do you uh what do you say tothem that gives them that
(18:32):
feeling of they belong?
You know, um, there were schoolswho set up what they call buddy
benches where kids would sitdown if they felt like they
needed somebody to sit with themand so we love that sit with
them.
And that, you know, I it it gotlots of attention as an example.
And I think in in many ways is awonderful thing.
It can, of course, backfire ifthe other kids don't embrace it
(18:54):
and sit down with them.
Um so one has to be thoughtfuland careful how we institute
things.
But look in the cafeteria ofwhere lunch is there are kids
sitting at a table all bythemselves, and what could we do
to you know bring them in orhave others recognize and sit
with them in a way that doesn'tcall them out in a negative way?
I think there are lots ofcreative ways.
(19:16):
And frankly, we're working onsome toolkits to put on the
website that hopefully will havelots of ideas for teachers and
things like that to be able tocome up with things that they
don't have to think ofthemselves, if you know what I
mean.
SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
How do we define chronic loneliness as compared
to average or just occasionalloneliness?
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
You know, and I think this is that's it's what a
great question.
And I think it it's alsoimportant to say that a person
who's chronically lonely can belonely in any environment.
They might be sitting there atThanksgiving coming up now, um,
sitting there at a table withall their friends and family and
still feel chronically lonelybecause they don't feel like
(20:01):
they belong.
It could be a loneliness thing,but if in fact it lasts over
time, if it's a situationalthing that's just, oh my gosh, I
got to go to this dinner and Idon't really want to be there,
that's not chronic.
But if one feels that over timeand it doesn't go away and it's
not just an environmentallydriven, stress-filled moment,
(20:21):
then it is it is chronicallylonely.
And the way people identify itas an example, they'll say, I
don't really have a really bestfriend.
There's nobody that really seemsto care about me the way I need
to feel cared for.
You know, nobody really gets me.
Um, and that can happen to anyof us.
And it may be happening to theperson sitting right next to you
(20:44):
who wears armor every day, andyou would never know it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:48):
Right.
Yeah, the the way we appear onthe outside does not always
match how we feel on the inside.
And that's it's an importantthing for people to recognize in
this very outward social worldwe live in, right?
We see on Facebook, on Twitter,on all the social platforms, we
(21:08):
see shiny and new, but itdoesn't necessarily match what's
happening internally.
It does.
And so it's sometimes we'rewe're putting on the on the
pretty front because we don'tknow how to handle what's
happening on the inside, right?
SPEAKER_01 (21:27):
It is about the truth.
SPEAKER_02 (21:29):
Yeah, Lucy, how do you define hope?
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Yeah, it's it's not for me, it's elusive to define
it, but I think it is that thatfeeling and thought that that we
carry inside that says tomorrowwill be a better day.
I I believe that for me,tomorrow will be a better day.
(21:54):
And I I wanna, you know, this isinteresting because I was as I
was thinking about hope,Danielle, it it occurred to me
hope is such a can be such apositive force in our life to
keep us going.
I was going to bring up griefwith you as well because I think
that's such an important part ofthis loneliness piece.
But as we think about hope, itcan be so positive, and yet
(22:15):
there are times and where hopeneeds to be abandoned for your
own sake, where you're in arelationship, as an example,
that's that's very terrible foryou, and you know it.
I just um listened to JenHapmaker over the weekend,
sharing North Carolina, where Iam, and just finished her book
Awake, you know, and where youcan hope and hope and hope, and
(22:38):
things are going to get better,and you believe tomorrow is a
better day, and at some pointone has to say, okay, my hope
right now is not healthy in thiscase anymore.
And I just want to make surethat that piece of the hope is
also there, that we're so honestwith one another, with ourselves
at least, that we know wherethat boundary is and which is
(23:00):
positive in our lives and whichperhaps is toxic.
SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
It's a really important distinction, right?
I mean, when you when you givethat, when you illustrate that,
the first thing that comes tomind personally is when I'm in
recovery, um, I'm six and a halfyears sober.
When I first, when I wouldinitially say, okay, well,
tomorrow I won't drink, right?
(23:26):
And then I would say, well, Ican have one, because I would
think, I would hope that I couldhandle it differently this time.
And what I needed to come toterms with was that I was
someone who was not supposed todrink.
And I kept hoping it would bedifferent this time.
(23:53):
And in that case, hope was notthe right emotion because I was
lying to myself.
I was unwilling to recognizethat alcohol was never going to
(24:14):
be okay for me.
It was it was my thing.
Like diabetes is a thing forsome people, and and epilepsy is
a thing for some people, andcancer is a thing for some
people, and gluten is a thingfor some.
And this was my thing, and itjust had to be.
(24:34):
And until I came to terms withthe fact that I was never going
to be the girl who could mimosaat brunch, yeah.
So I had to stop hoping I wasgonna sit at that table.
Yeah.
But I I appreciate you bringingthat up because I I do think
that that is a very, veryimportant distinction.
(24:56):
Um it's hope for me is mostdefinitely on the fuller, richer
believing side that things willchange for the better.
(25:21):
No matter how hard or how darkthings are, they will shift.
Uh, there was definitely a time,grief-wise, where I couldn't see
it.
And I had never been in thatplace before because I'd always
been a glasses half full kind ofgirl.
And I'd always been able to seethe light, no matter how dark
(25:46):
things felt.
I'd always been able to at leastsee it.
And there was a period of timein my life where I couldn't see
it, and I wasn't sure it wasthere.
And now at this stage in mylife, I'm confident I was
supposed to move through thatplace to recognize what
hopelessness felt like andlooked like in order to be able
(26:09):
to do what I'm doing now.
I don't think that I waspreparing at that time that that
episode of my life happened.
I was preparing this podcast.
And I think that I had to movethrough that stage in order to
be equipped to haveconversations with people who
had also felt 125% hopeless.
(26:33):
Yeah.
So that I could see them as wellas everyone else.
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
So um what a beautiful way to say that.
Thank you.
Oh, thank you.
And you know what it's you justsaid, is reframe hope in a way
as well, right?
I mean, you moved it from onecan hope that a toxic thing will
just get better.
And we know sometimes we have wehave to control that, right?
We have to step out of that inorder then to find the real hope
(27:04):
that you're working for.
And that's right, what you did,right?
Is to say, okay, this isn't forme.
I can't do that.
But now that I know that, thehope is is there.
I, you know, and and I can walkthrough that.
SPEAKER_02 (27:18):
But Lucy, you did the same thing, right?
You're walking through CentralPark, and you were thinking the
path I'm on right now is notright.
I'm in a place right now thatdoesn't feel right.
It's almost as though the lifeyou were living, as I have done
(27:38):
before, doesn't feelrecognizable.
And you recognized in thatcalling that there was something
that was asking you to not onlychange your path, but you were
given the gift and ability tochange that path for other
(28:01):
people while you were changingyours.
And that's beautiful.
And to me, that's what hope is,right?
Hope is not just the ability tochange your own path, but to
bring other people along withyou while you're making such
fundamental change in your ownworld.
(28:23):
And that's extraordinary.
SPEAKER_01 (28:27):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It is um it's always a journey,isn't it?
You know, it is.
As we do that, you know, sincethat time, I've had what I might
call a life quake, and I'm quitesure I did not coin that term.
Well, I don't know where it camefrom, so I can't give credit to
anyone.
But, you know, a number ofthings kind of happened at the
(28:49):
same time, from death of a momto, you know, um moving to my
kids moving away to beingdiagnosed with breast cancer,
all kinds of things happenedsimultaneously.
And you realize in those momentsjust how important hope is to go
where you are.
Because it is that hope, Ithink, that says, yes, I can.
(29:11):
And there is a light here.
The tunnel may be a really longone looking, at least as you
look down it or seem like it.
Um, but that hope is what picksus up in grief.
And I said I wanted to mentiongrief because I look at grief,
and so often we know and we haverituals around the death of
someone.
Um, and I did listen to one ofyour recent podcasts.
(29:33):
We don't have the same kind ofrituals around all kinds of
death, unfortunately.
Um but usually we do, and weknow how to support one another.
There's so many other forms ofgrief, you know, losing a job,
moving away from friends andfamily that you've loved
forever, things that leave youhurting and empty and lonely,
(29:55):
that we can anticipate in ourfriends and hold out our hand or
a Call them or do whatever weneed to do because we've been
taught pick yourself up by thebootstraps, you can do this.
You know, you can hear thelanguage.
No, do you can do this byyourself?
You don't need help.
You don't need a therapist.
No, you don't need a flint.
Um, and how do we reach out andtouch them so that they know we
(30:18):
care?
I think you know, this griefstuff, it's so uncomfortable to
talk about often as well forsome people.
SPEAKER_02 (30:25):
It absolutely is.
What did you find?
I I'm sorry for the loss and andthe life quake.
It is um having so many thingshappen at one time.
I don't know what that timeframe was for you, but it's
clearly happened in the in theperiod of time that you've been
working on the project from thecost of loneliness.
(30:47):
Um how are you doing?
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Um, every day's a journey, you know, and so I it's
um one step at a time.
But like you, as we talk abouthope, you know, the the light
seems closer some days andfurther some days.
But I do think um that findingthat support system as we talk
about loneliness and not havingthat is critical.
And you never know where thatsupport, well, I won't say that.
(31:14):
If you're if you're JenHatmaker, you built that support
system all your life.
If you read her book, theylisten to her talk, all of her
six friends there.
SPEAKER_02 (31:22):
Jen moves in the same circles I always have in
terms of the online community.
So yes, so my online communitywas crucial when I was going
through grief.
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Of course.
And hers, she has six bestfriends that live within two
blocks of her house.
They have a golf cart that theyvisit each other every day.
And you know what?
Those kinds of things, not allof us are that fortunate to have
that kind of a friendset.
But to build community aroundyourself so that if and when
those times do come for any inthat community, you're there to
(31:58):
support each other.
And you never know.
I have just reconnected in thelast three years with two
friends that I had not seen in50 years.
We play competitive tennistogether as children.
And reconnecting has been one ofthe most amazing blessings for
all three of us that we'veprobably ever had in our lives.
You never know where thatsupport, from which that support
(32:22):
may come as an example.
Being open, I think, is the key,isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (32:26):
I'm gonna ask you a question.
Those two friends, have theygone through anything similar to
what you're going through rightnow?
Uh yes, they have.
So I will I will say one of thethings I learned in my grief.
Yeah um, my I had I got a grieftherapist, and she said to me,
one of the things that is reallychallenging in grief is that
(32:52):
your entire life breaks intothree groups.
People who show up for you andare there and become your core
people, people who disappearentirely, and people who show up
a little bit.
Sometimes they say the rightthing, sometimes they say the
wrong thing.
The challenge is that they'reall being shuffled.
(33:14):
A number of the people that youwere positive were gonna be in
your core, show up for you, beyour people.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:22):
Sometimes they end up in the disappear entirely
group.
And sometimes the people who arethere for you are people you
haven't spoken to in years.
That's right.
And that's what made me think ofthat, because I found that some
of the people who have shown upand and been here for me are
people I hadn't spoken to inyears.
(33:44):
And part of that piece wasbecause some of those people
were people who had had asimilar experience and had the
capacity to understand whatgrief needs to breathe.
Um, and many of the people whohad to disappear fell into the
(34:05):
this is too big, this is tooheavy, I I don't want it.
And they had to walk awaybecause the grief was so unknown
to them and too much.
Yeah.
And so it's I I wondered if thetwo the reconnection was that
(34:27):
you guys are in a a stage whereit the beauty of life allowed
you to reconnect having hadsimilar experiences, but what a
gift.
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
It is a gift, and you you just said so many to me,
very wise things there as we arefriends for one another.
And I think I I do want to cutsome slack to those who aren't
there because I think it isoften overwhelming.
They don't know how to do it,they don't want to say the wrong
thing.
We don't teach those skills.
(34:58):
And for me, as I think aboutloneliness, and I bring it back
to that, and I think about howwe equip our children to deal
with social connections,especially in a world where it's
all about this.
Yeah, yeah, man.
It's all about texting, it's allabout all of that.
You know, how many reels can Iwatch a day on TikTok or
whatever that may be?
Are we working now to help ourchildren build the skills they
(35:22):
need of empathy, of caring, oflistening, of connecting?
I am.
You know, you are yay, yay, yay,you.
I work very hard at it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:35):
But I know a lot of parents don't.
SPEAKER_01 (35:36):
In our world, and I'm not even this this is not an
indictment of any individualparent.
Of course.
It's just our world is changing.
You know, at school is not thesame thing.
And and you know, they'rethey're doing it on the
playground, whatever it may be,whether we're there or not.
SPEAKER_02 (35:52):
And I And we also have to shift some.
Like we have to, we have toparent differently than we were
parented, and we have to havedifferent conversations that
sometimes it doesn't occur tous.
I I'll give you an example.
Yeah, my there was a time whenmy daughter was asked to spend
(36:12):
the night at someone's house,and she was asked via her phone,
and it was mom, can I spend thenight at so and so's house?
Yep.
And I said, No, baby, you can'tbecause you know Cooper has a
game tomorrow at such and suchtime.
And so she went back and saidno.
(36:33):
Okay.
And so I said, Sweet baby girl.
And at the time she was probably10, right?
I did allow my kids to havephones early because my theory,
working in the social mediaspace, I was in the blogging
space.
Um my theory was I it was easierto be up in their business young
(36:57):
and for them to understand myrole up in their business than
it was to try to get up in theirbusiness, giving them a phone at
14 and then try to explain tothem.
I told them very early, if youwant things to be private, write
in a journal.
I will never read your journal.
But your phone, anything you puton your phone, I'm here to tell
you.
Somebody else has access to it.
(37:18):
If someone else can have accessto it, I can have access to it.
Your question is not what wouldJesus do?
Your question is what would mymom say if this went viral?
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
So they have new business that they went.
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
Yes, before your question.
Now they're older now, they're21 and 18 now, but at the time,
so I realized that I had toexplain to her and train her,
just like our kids aren't usedto answering the phone and
saying, hello, Mr.
and Mrs.
So-and-so, may I please speakto?
Because that's how I learned toanswer the phone.
(37:49):
So we have a generation of kidswho don't know how to pick up
the phone and call to make areservation, right?
So I've had to train my kids inphone etiquette.
SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (38:00):
Because that was something they never
automatically learned.
They never called someone'shouse and said, hey, Mrs.
So-and-so, this is Cooper orDelaney.
May I please speak to, right?
So I mean, I've called my kids'phones or called their friends'
phones and had the friendsanswer the phone, yo, right?
(38:22):
Because there's just if we don'tthink about it, and again, also
not an indictment.
It's just if it doesn't occur toyou because it's not something
you're watching them do.
So it's only when it comes up dowe actually say, Oh, I have to
teach you how to do that, don'tI?
SPEAKER_01 (38:42):
That's right.
That's exactly right.
And I, you know, as I again, asI think about loneliness, the
best thing we can do is preventit, isn't it?
You know, absolutely teachingour young ones the skills of
listening and empathy andsharing and caring and all of
those things, they should comenaturally.
But as we socialize in our newways, we're not necessarily
(39:05):
focusing on the same thing.
And all of us are busy,everybody's working full-time
now.
We have to was it the economyand everything else going on in
our world?
You know, so picking up on thosecues, being you know, cognizant
of it and intentional about it,is so important because if we
give them the skills they needas children to socialize and be
(39:26):
with one another, and this hasnothing to do again with
introvert, extrovert, any ofthat.
It's how do we give others whatthey need in terms of listening
and caring?
And how do we get what we needin that same way?
So, how do we build friendships,to your point, Danielle?
Is right kind of the bottom linehere, wherever they may be.
Helping folks do that then helpsprevent loneliness down the
(39:47):
line, not totally preventing it,clearly, but it certainly helps
us be aware of do I have thatcommunity?
Do I have those friends that aresupportive?
Um, it, you know, this thisloneliness connection stuff is
free.
We don't need a medicine for it.
We don't need to worry aboutinsurance.
It's picking up the phone andcalling someone we care about.
(40:08):
It's asking them, like you didme at the beginning of this, how
are you?
Not just, how are you?
Fine, thanks.
Next.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (40:16):
But asking me, I legitimately care.
I mean, I I want yes, I want theanswer.
And I think that when you saidthat you'll you give people
grace for you know, grief beingheavy.
And and I, while I understandthat, I have tried very hard to
teach my children that in thatsituation it isn't about you.
(40:37):
Um, yes, it may be hard for you,but I something stuck with me
years and years and years ago.
And and people who listen to thepodcast will have heard me say
this a handful of times.
Um, in the early mom bloggingdays, there was a uh a mom that
was a friend of ours who losther daughter very young, and she
was the same age as Delaney atthe time, and our community
(40:59):
rallied around her.
And at the time, she eventuallywrote about losing her young
daughter.
And what she had to say stuckwith me at the time.
And it was a time we still hadanswering machines, and she
said, So grateful for everyonewho called, so grateful for
people who left messages.
I didn't have the capacity tocall a lot of people back.
(41:19):
And a lot of times I didn't havethe capacity to answer the
phone.
But what I will tell you was theloudest voice for me, the
loudest noise, were all of thepeople who didn't call because
it was too hard for them.
And at that moment, I became theperson who always calls.
And when I call, regardless ofwhether or not someone answers,
(41:43):
I will say, don't add me to yourto-do list.
Please just know that I'm hereand I'm thinking about you and I
love you and I'm sorry, whateverI feel needs to be said at the
time.
And because I think it'simportant for someone who's
grieving to know they aren'talone.
And as hard as it is for me,nowhere near as hard as it is
(42:09):
for the person who's who's goingthrough the loss.
And because I've always I'veI've worked very hard to do the
best I can to equip my childrenwith empathy and compassion,
because I do think those arequalities that to some degree as
(42:30):
a society we are lacking.
In some in some level, we wedon't have in excess.
So I want my kids to to at leasttry.
It's not always going to happen.
Um, but at least try becausegrief is one of the loneliest
(42:51):
experiences.
SPEAKER_01 (42:52):
Here's the thing.
I'm gonna give folks a tool hereand make it and make it easy.
And I and I just really thiscame to my soul recently when
one of my best friends died in abicycle accident.
Um, and and it's justheartbreaking right here in the
same where I am.
Her husband is also a dearfriend of mine and has been for
(43:14):
50 something years.
Um, and I when I went to visitwith him after she died, I
thought, oh gosh, what do I say?
How do I do this?
It's it's not comfortable.
And then I realized I don't haveto say a word.
I just have to be there.
All she wanted was for him totalk.
So all I had to say, what a toolthis is, I think.
(43:38):
Show up to your point and thenjust say, You want to talk, how
are you?
Stories came out about her andhim and us, and you know, wanted
to tell me what happened in theaccent, all the things that
there was nothing uncomfortableat all about it.
And healing happens when youreally feel hurt.
(43:59):
So just being there, you'rehelping someone else heal just
by letting them talk andlistening.
And it takes pressure off, Ithink, us having to decide will
I say the wrong thing, will Iupset them?
Yeah, will I make it worse?
All the things that go throughour heads as to why it's too
uncomfortable.
And you're right, that's aboutus in some in some respects.
Then we own that, I guess, ifthat's where you are.
(44:21):
But just sitting and listeningin a quiet way is the best we
can probably do for those whoare lonely and grieving.
Um and it it it's that part'snot hard.
SPEAKER_02 (44:33):
Sit and thank you so much for being here with me.
Where can people learn moreabout the Cost of Loneliness
Project?
SPEAKER_01 (44:41):
At our website, theCostofLoneliness.com.
SPEAKER_02 (44:44):
Fantastic.
And where can is that wherepeople can best connect with
you?
SPEAKER_01 (44:48):
It is indeed.
There's a way right there forfor people to connect with me as
well.
And I would love to.
Thank you.
Thank you for the honor of beingon your podcast with you.
It's been wonderful.
SPEAKER_02 (44:58):
It has been wonderful having you here, Lucy
Rose.
Thank you so, so much.
And friends, thank you forjoining us.
I so hope we have met youexactly where you are, and that
this has been a bit of light anda bit of goodness, and that you
have learned something, and thatthere is a piece of this that
you can turn around and take andshare with the people you know
(45:19):
and you love.
And if you have found somethinggood and helpful that you will
take the time to review or likethe podcast, and until next
time, please take such good careof you.
I can't wait to see you again.
Thank you for being here.
I've had what I might call a life quake, and I'm
(00:02):
quite sure I did not coin thatterm.
I don't know where it came from,so I can't give credit to
anyone.
But you know, a number of thingskind of happened at the same
time from death of a mom to, youknow, um moving to my kids
moving away to being diagnosedwith breast cancer, all kinds of
things happen simultaneously.
(00:23):
And you realize in those momentsjust how important hope is to go
where you are.
Because it is that hope, Ithink, that says, yes, I can,
and there is a light here.
SPEAKER_02 (00:44):
Hi, friends, I'm Danielle Elliott Smith, and this
is Hope Comes to Visit.
Here on the podcast, we listendeeply, learn boldly, and try to
leave with one small step.
Our guest today is here to talkto us about something so many of
us have felt (00:58):
loneliness.
She calls it a silent publichealth crisis.
Lucy Rose is the founder andpresident of the Cost of
Loneliness Project.
Lucy's Lucy's pronouns are she,her, and hers.
Lucy, I'm so delighted to haveyou here.
I am loneliness is something Ihave felt many, many times in my
(01:22):
life.
And I don't know that I haveever can recognized it as a
public health crisis, but Icertainly know that it's
something so many people havefelt at one time or another.
And I'm delighted to have youhere to talk about it.
How are you today?
SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
Thank you for asking.
Just the start of that is alovely way to help dispel
loneliness, isn't it?
Thank you.
Um, I'm doing very well.
Thank you.
And thanks for having me.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:54):
What made you decide to start a project like this?
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Yeah, it's a great question.
Um, I was actually walkingaround the periphery of Central
Park with my daughter.
And I was at a certain age inlife and a certain stage, and
have had a really great fun timein my career and doing what I
do.
And I just, it just reallyoccurred to me, I really wanted
to do something in addition towhat I was doing.
(02:20):
There was something else in lifeI needed to do and give back.
And as I started thinking whatthat was, um, I realized I was
lonely, Danielle, and how is itimpacting me?
And then the more I thoughtabout that, the more research I
did, the more I realized what ahuge, as you say, public health
crisis it really is.
And at that time, eight yearsago, when I first started this,
(02:43):
it wasn't in the news.
You weren't hearing the TodayShow folks talk about loneliness
or any of that like we do today.
It was very quiet.
Um, but I so I started doingresearch and I realized that was
for me, and there's no religiousintent overtone here at all, but
almost like a calling.
It was something that I had todo was to bring this to the
(03:04):
forefront and see if we can't dosomething about demystifying
this, making it okay to talkabout, um, and then helping
folks hold their hand, helpingthem come back to a place where
they feel heard, which, as youknow, was your your work.
Um, being heard is that firststep in healing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
Absolutely.
What a beautiful, and and Ibelieve that we are called to do
certain things.
I believe that much like I'mdoing work that I know I'm
supposed to be doing, right?
So well, let's talk a little bitabout your background, right?
So this is uh a little bit of adeparture, but also in your
wheelhouse.
So um yeah, what had you beendoing up to this point?
SPEAKER_01 (03:47):
Yeah, it is a bit of a departure, and it is also
consistent.
You're absolutely right.
I've been working in the publichealth arena my entire
professional life.
I'm actually a physicianassistant by training as well,
so I do have a clinicalbackground, but I will preface
this by saying I am not atherapist.
So anything that we talk abouttoday could even come close to
sounding to anyone like thatmight be the case, it's not
(04:09):
true.
Um, I've just had the same livedexperiences everyone else has,
and I'm delighted to share whatI've learned.
Um, but yes, I have had my ownbusiness now for 25 years, I
think this year.
Um I worked at the FEDA DrugAdministration for a while in my
life, um, running the groupthere that regulates
advertising, promotion,prescription drugs.
(04:30):
But for this, more importantly,I think was head of
communications for F for a partof FDA for a number of years.
Um then I've run this businessfor a long time, working in
public health, really, trying toensure that all the ways that
pharmaceutical companies, as anexample, promote their
prescription drugs are truthfuland not misleading, so that your
(04:51):
healthcare providers and you getthe information you need to best
use those products.
Um it's kept me very involved inthinking about public health and
being a part of that ecosystemthat says, how can we help
people live a healthier, happierlife?
SPEAKER_02 (05:08):
So one of my ethos for the longest time has always
been, how can I help?
Um, when I was working in therecovery space, I would answer
my phone, how can I help?
Uh, because I think that thatvery simple sentence allows
people to feel as though theycan share and that you are
(05:29):
someone who wants to make adifference in some capacity.
When you realized that thisplace of loneliness was
something you wanted to diveinto, yeah.
Was it a surprise when youstarted to uncover some of the
statistics?
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Uh yeah, let me back up just one second because I
think this is relevant to thatquestion.
Um, yes, it was a surprise.
A shock was a surprise how manypeople in this country
self-report that they'reexperiencing chronic loneliness.
And that's what this is reallyabout, not the situational
loneliness that you feel whenyou're a young person going to a
dance, standing in the corner,and you go, oh my gosh, I'm so
(06:11):
lonely tonight.
My friend didn't come with me.
But a chronic feeling of I don'thave what I need in terms of
supporting me emotionally andwhat that is.
But my loneliness actually camefrom traveling all the time.
Right.
Six days a week for 20 years.
I was on the road.
You're looking at someone withum 8 million Marriott points and
(06:31):
5 million United Miles as anexample, who's on the road all
the time.
And no time to really buildthose foundational relationships
that are necessary to helpmitigate the loneliness.
Um, so I it's a real livedexperience for me.
And it caused every it causedphysical ramifications and all
kinds of other things for me.
But yes, I was shocked at thenumbers of people that
(06:54):
self-report that they arechronically lonely and the
impact that that makes on theirlife as I started doing that
research.
Because the impact was huge.
SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
So, what is that impact?
What does that impact typicallylook like?
Because I've I've been doing alot of research lately on what
on what a system we have, right?
On how interconnected we are interms of our body responding to
outside stimuli and andenvironmental issues and and why
(07:26):
we get depressed or anxious orour muscles get tight, depending
on what's happening.
You know, recognizing in myolder age how truly phenomenal
our bodies are and what I can bedoing to better serve myself,
right?
So recognizing how lonelinesscould potentially affect you
(07:48):
physically or in in what othercapacities it could.
So, what did you learn?
SPEAKER_01 (07:52):
Well, I've learned a lot, and I continue to learn
every day.
Uh, right now, I just dived inyesterday to a new book, for me
at least, called The Biology ofTrauma by Amy Apijin, which is
an amazing look inside whathappens to all of us as we
respond to trauma of any sort uhfrom a physiological
perspective.
But basically, let's just takethis to the highest level.
(08:14):
When we have any kind of stress,and of course, loneliness is a
form of chronic stress when youhave it chronically.
Anytime we do, our body releaseshormones.
We've all heard of those.
The most important one in thiscase is one called cortisol.
And it's that hormone that says,oh my gosh, I'm scared to death.
How fast can I run?
And your heart beats faster andyour blood pressure goes up and
(08:35):
you breathe faster, and it givesyou that ability to do different
things to respond to fear or to,in this case, um loneliness or
stress.
Um, as the hormone comes out,that's it's really important if
you're in a situation, that's anacute situation you need to run
from.
It's not good for you if itchronically bathes your cells
(08:56):
with this hormone so that you'reconstantly on notice, in
essence.
And this can cause animmunological response that
lowers your ability to fightinfection, as an example.
That also over time canactually, and there's causality
here, not just correlation, cancause cancer.
And we believe that theinflammation may also have an
(09:17):
impact on causing dementia overtime.
We know that it causes heartdisease.
And the other thing it oftencauses is folks, Daniel, go into
a soothing need because you'reyou're chronically there.
You know, I think of the goldengirls and them eating their ice
cream at night, you know, andall of that from stress.
Um, as we do that, the otherthings that it can cause can be
(09:40):
mental, can be things like uhturning to drinking or other
kinds of drugs or overeating orwhatever it may be, all of which
also then can add to thosephysiological issues that can be
damaging to all of us.
SPEAKER_02 (09:53):
That makes me think.
I mean, when you said thedementia piece made me think
that there must be, and again,I'm not a doctor clearly, but
there I have seen studies thatrelate to length of life and
friendships, right?
Like people who have friendshipsand and are out and social tend
(10:19):
to live longer than people whoare alone or isolate.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
Yes, that is absolutely the case.
And it's one of those issuesthat Fox has studied for a long
time.
And one thing that, you know, italso perhaps plays into some
gender differences.
And I'm always very careful.
I don't like to broad brushanything.
Right.
But as we think about some ofthe ways we have been socialized
historically, I'm just sayingwith women perhaps often
(10:47):
building more and deeperfriendships than what we've
encouraged men to do over time,you see a difference there as
well.
And that's becoming more andmore clear, I think, and evident
in terms of research.
But just as a quick example, itis not uncommon for a woman to
have a fairly significant lifeafter her spouse might die, her
(11:07):
husband dies.
It is very common for the malemember of that group, if it's a
heterosexual marriage that way,to die much more quickly when
their wife does, because theydon't have that community, that
friendset that's so important tosupport them again.
And that's what reallyloneliness is.
It's not having what you need tosupport you when you need it.
(11:30):
Um, and that's very devastatingin so many ways.
There's a cost to pay for theindividual, there's a cost to
pay at the uh community levelwhen folks are lonely and not
out and about and doing things,and at our societal level.
Um, even in terms of business,there's a productivity cost when
people are not there.
So all kinds of things happen asa result of this.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
Okay, so we we've used the word cost a few times.
So when we talk about the costof loneliness project, let's
talk about the project itself.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
Yeah, um, I this project is really designed to do
everything we can to do botheducation, just like we are
today, about what loneliness isand why it is important to
recognize that, destigmatizethat, normalize that, and come
up with opportunities to createconnections.
What do they look like?
What do they look like in termsof how we live in community, how
(12:24):
we create our cities and buildthose cities to encourage
connections, how we and ourtowns bring those together, all
those things.
So what we are trying to do istwofold, really, is to educate
people as to what this is andwhy it's so important, but also
to create opportunities forconnection and to create
awareness, to your pointexactly, about how important
(12:47):
those connections are to all ofus, those friendsets, those
people who support us the most,and bring all the folks together
as best we can to createawareness about building
cultures of community, be it inyour own community, be it in
your workplace, wherever thatis.
So that's what we're all about.
And there are lots of ways thatwe're doing that that folks can
(13:09):
find actually on our website.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
That's fantastic.
How can we do that in ourcommunities?
What are some of the best wayswe can create community if I am
an individual who finds myselffeeling a little lost, a little
like I'm I'm listening now andI'm thinking, okay, this sounds
(13:31):
like me.
I've I've been feeling lonely.
I've I've felt a bit lost and abit out of place.
And I'm wondering what's thefirst step?
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
You know, when you asked me a few minutes ago about
numbers, um, if there are peoplefeeling right now, gosh, it
sounds like me or my grandson ormy mom or whomever that may be,
you're not alone.
Let's just say that first.
Um, you know this when I saidself-reporting, somewhere
between, and this variesdepending on which study you're
looking at, but somewherebetween 30 and 50 percent of the
(14:04):
adults in this countryself-report that they are
chronically lonely.
Um, that's a huge number.
So you're not alone.
And I said adults, one of mybiggest worries is our children.
You know, what do we do at ourchildren?
And I I'll go there with ourcommunity first right now in
terms of identifying that.
Because I think one of theissues for me is how can we
(14:26):
anticipate someone might becomelonely?
What does that look like?
And how can we build things into recognize those opportunities
and create connections for thosepeople, create social skills
that they may need?
So, as we look at this, for meas children, now let's just
think about that.
How do we educate our teachersas to what to look for?
What does that look like?
(14:47):
Okay, how do they then have thetoolkits or what toolkits can we
provide those teachers to helpthem understand what they can do
for the children that they doidentify and recognize?
How do they have thoseconversations with the parents?
You know, and so I think as acommunity we can come together.
I think the physicians in acommunity and the mental health
providers can certainly cometogether as well and put this as
(15:11):
a high priority in all of theinteractions of the work they do
and education for all of theirfolks.
Ask those questions when you runinto when your patients come in
or when your clients come in,depending on what you're doing.
Um, communities as a whole,okay, the businesses can come
together, okay, especially inour world right now, where half
of us are hybrid.
(15:32):
We don't even have the watercooler anymore.
What can they do for all thefolks that work for them and
with them to help them withconnections?
And what does that look like?
There are lots of ways, I think,if a community pays attention,
volunteering.
How can we volunteer?
Might we have a communitySaturday volunteer day where
everybody comes out like they doin Rwanda uh one Saturday month
(15:55):
and volunteers.
And there are lots and lots ofopportunities for people to
connect and projects they wantto work on.
Um I think we have to thinkdifferently.
SPEAKER_02 (16:05):
I know there are some there are some companies
that do things like that.
My fiance works for MasterCard,and part of MasterCard's ethos
is to encourage volunteerism.
I mean, they're there and anumber of their employees get
time off in order to volunteer,right?
So, but if we start, like youwere starting to say, if we
(16:27):
start with the younger kids,what could a teacher do in a
school classroom to encourage orto help a child that seems to be
moving towards a if they'rerecognizing signs of loneliness?
(16:49):
Or what are the signs ofloneliness that a teacher might
recognize?
SPEAKER_01 (16:54):
Teacher might recognize, and again, I think
it's really critical to pausejust for a second and recognize
the fact that lonelinessmanifests itself differently in
each person that feels lonely.
SPEAKER_02 (17:04):
Fair enough.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
There's of course not a true one size fits all
because it's psychic pain,Danielle.
Clearly, what you might seebefore, I might say no, no, it's
a 10, you know, or whatever.
I don't know.
Um, but how how a teacher mightnotice is a child withdrawing?
Is a child not doing the samekind of work that they're used
to doing?
So a B student might become a Dstudent.
(17:27):
Um, they might not want to jointhe playground activity,
whatever that may be, and bestandoffish, or suddenly become
quieter.
There are all kinds of ways thata teacher, I think, may do it.
And of course, they cananticipate it for some.
The new kid on the block whojust moved into the bizarre
doesn't already have thosefriends.
Um, so as you were looking, andthe same with parents, as we
(17:48):
look at our children, you know,are we seeing anything change in
their life?
Are they still making thosephone calls at night or texting
nowadays?
I guess it's not the phone call,all their friends when they get
home from school and engaged andall of that.
Um, and once you do, once yousee that, obviously then a
teacher can think creatively asto how to bring that person in
(18:08):
on their own terms so thatthey're comfortable.
And it's clearly important todifferentiate between someone
who's just shy and someone who'svery lonely as an example.
Um how do we bring them into aconversation as an example that
you're having in the readinggroup?
How do you move them into thegroup physically so that they
feel comfortable and confident?
How do you uh what do you say tothem that gives them that
(18:32):
feeling of they belong?
You know, um, there were schoolswho set up what they call buddy
benches where kids would sitdown if they felt like they
needed somebody to sit with themand so we love that sit with
them.
And that, you know, I it it gotlots of attention as an example.
And I think in in many ways is awonderful thing.
It can, of course, backfire ifthe other kids don't embrace it
(18:54):
and sit down with them.
Um so one has to be thoughtfuland careful how we institute
things.
But look in the cafeteria ofwhere lunch is there are kids
sitting at a table all bythemselves, and what could we do
to you know bring them in orhave others recognize and sit
with them in a way that doesn'tcall them out in a negative way?
I think there are lots ofcreative ways.
(19:16):
And frankly, we're working onsome toolkits to put on the
website that hopefully will havelots of ideas for teachers and
things like that to be able tocome up with things that they
don't have to think ofthemselves, if you know what I
mean.
SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
How do we define chronic loneliness as compared
to average or just occasionalloneliness?
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
You know, and I think this is that's it's what a
great question.
And I think it it's alsoimportant to say that a person
who's chronically lonely can belonely in any environment.
They might be sitting there atThanksgiving coming up now, um,
sitting there at a table withall their friends and family and
still feel chronically lonelybecause they don't feel like
(20:01):
they belong.
It could be a loneliness thing,but if in fact it lasts over
time, if it's a situationalthing that's just, oh my gosh, I
got to go to this dinner and Idon't really want to be there,
that's not chronic.
But if one feels that over timeand it doesn't go away and it's
not just an environmentallydriven, stress-filled moment,
(20:21):
then it is it is chronicallylonely.
And the way people identify itas an example, they'll say, I
don't really have a really bestfriend.
There's nobody that really seemsto care about me the way I need
to feel cared for.
You know, nobody really gets me.
Um, and that can happen to anyof us.
And it may be happening to theperson sitting right next to you
(20:44):
who wears armor every day, andyou would never know it.
SPEAKER_02 (20:48):
Right.
Yeah, the the way we appear onthe outside does not always
match how we feel on the inside.
And that's it's an importantthing for people to recognize in
this very outward social worldwe live in, right?
We see on Facebook, on Twitter,on all the social platforms, we
(21:08):
see shiny and new, but itdoesn't necessarily match what's
happening internally.
It does.
And so it's sometimes we'rewe're putting on the on the
pretty front because we don'tknow how to handle what's
happening on the inside, right?
SPEAKER_01 (21:27):
It is about the truth.
SPEAKER_02 (21:29):
Yeah, Lucy, how do you define hope?
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Yeah, it's it's not for me, it's elusive to define
it, but I think it is that thatfeeling and thought that that we
carry inside that says tomorrowwill be a better day.
I I believe that for me,tomorrow will be a better day.
(21:54):
And I I wanna, you know, this isinteresting because I was as I
was thinking about hope,Danielle, it it occurred to me
hope is such a can be such apositive force in our life to
keep us going.
I was going to bring up griefwith you as well because I think
that's such an important part ofthis loneliness piece.
But as we think about hope, itcan be so positive, and yet
(22:15):
there are times and where hopeneeds to be abandoned for your
own sake, where you're in arelationship, as an example,
that's that's very terrible foryou, and you know it.
I just um listened to JenHapmaker over the weekend,
sharing North Carolina, where Iam, and just finished her book
Awake, you know, and where youcan hope and hope and hope, and
(22:38):
things are going to get better,and you believe tomorrow is a
better day, and at some pointone has to say, okay, my hope
right now is not healthy in thiscase anymore.
And I just want to make surethat that piece of the hope is
also there, that we're so honestwith one another, with ourselves
at least, that we know wherethat boundary is and which is
(23:00):
positive in our lives and whichperhaps is toxic.
SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
It's a really important distinction, right?
I mean, when you when you givethat, when you illustrate that,
the first thing that comes tomind personally is when I'm in
recovery, um, I'm six and a halfyears sober.
When I first, when I wouldinitially say, okay, well,
tomorrow I won't drink, right?
(23:26):
And then I would say, well, Ican have one, because I would
think, I would hope that I couldhandle it differently this time.
And what I needed to come toterms with was that I was
someone who was not supposed todrink.
And I kept hoping it would bedifferent this time.
(23:53):
And in that case, hope was notthe right emotion because I was
lying to myself.
I was unwilling to recognizethat alcohol was never going to
(24:14):
be okay for me.
It was it was my thing.
Like diabetes is a thing forsome people, and and epilepsy is
a thing for some people, andcancer is a thing for some
people, and gluten is a thingfor some.
And this was my thing, and itjust had to be.
(24:34):
And until I came to terms withthe fact that I was never going
to be the girl who could mimosaat brunch, yeah.
So I had to stop hoping I wasgonna sit at that table.
Yeah.
But I I appreciate you bringingthat up because I I do think
that that is a very, veryimportant distinction.
(24:56):
Um it's hope for me is mostdefinitely on the fuller, richer
believing side that things willchange for the better.
(25:21):
No matter how hard or how darkthings are, they will shift.
Uh, there was definitely a time,grief-wise, where I couldn't see
it.
And I had never been in thatplace before because I'd always
been a glasses half full kind ofgirl.
And I'd always been able to seethe light, no matter how dark
(25:46):
things felt.
I'd always been able to at leastsee it.
And there was a period of timein my life where I couldn't see
it, and I wasn't sure it wasthere.
And now at this stage in mylife, I'm confident I was
supposed to move through thatplace to recognize what
hopelessness felt like andlooked like in order to be able
(26:09):
to do what I'm doing now.
I don't think that I waspreparing at that time that that
episode of my life happened.
I was preparing this podcast.
And I think that I had to movethrough that stage in order to
be equipped to haveconversations with people who
had also felt 125% hopeless.
(26:33):
Yeah.
So that I could see them as wellas everyone else.
SPEAKER_01 (26:40):
So um what a beautiful way to say that.
Thank you.
Oh, thank you.
And you know what it's you justsaid, is reframe hope in a way
as well, right?
I mean, you moved it from onecan hope that a toxic thing will
just get better.
And we know sometimes we have wehave to control that, right?
We have to step out of that inorder then to find the real hope
(27:04):
that you're working for.
And that's right, what you did,right?
Is to say, okay, this isn't forme.
I can't do that.
But now that I know that, thehope is is there.
I, you know, and and I can walkthrough that.
SPEAKER_02 (27:18):
But Lucy, you did the same thing, right?
You're walking through CentralPark, and you were thinking the
path I'm on right now is notright.
I'm in a place right now thatdoesn't feel right.
It's almost as though the lifeyou were living, as I have done
(27:38):
before, doesn't feelrecognizable.
And you recognized in thatcalling that there was something
that was asking you to not onlychange your path, but you were
given the gift and ability tochange that path for other
(28:01):
people while you were changingyours.
And that's beautiful.
And to me, that's what hope is,right?
Hope is not just the ability tochange your own path, but to
bring other people along withyou while you're making such
fundamental change in your ownworld.
(28:23):
And that's extraordinary.
SPEAKER_01 (28:27):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
It is um it's always a journey,isn't it?
You know, it is.
As we do that, you know, sincethat time, I've had what I might
call a life quake, and I'm quitesure I did not coin that term.
Well, I don't know where it camefrom, so I can't give credit to
anyone.
But, you know, a number ofthings kind of happened at the
(28:49):
same time, from death of a momto, you know, um moving to my
kids moving away to beingdiagnosed with breast cancer,
all kinds of things happenedsimultaneously.
And you realize in those momentsjust how important hope is to go
where you are.
Because it is that hope, Ithink, that says, yes, I can.
(29:11):
And there is a light here.
The tunnel may be a really longone looking, at least as you
look down it or seem like it.
Um, but that hope is what picksus up in grief.
And I said I wanted to mentiongrief because I look at grief,
and so often we know and we haverituals around the death of
someone.
Um, and I did listen to one ofyour recent podcasts.
(29:33):
We don't have the same kind ofrituals around all kinds of
death, unfortunately.
Um but usually we do, and weknow how to support one another.
There's so many other forms ofgrief, you know, losing a job,
moving away from friends andfamily that you've loved
forever, things that leave youhurting and empty and lonely,
(29:55):
that we can anticipate in ourfriends and hold out our hand or
a Call them or do whatever weneed to do because we've been
taught pick yourself up by thebootstraps, you can do this.
You know, you can hear thelanguage.
No, do you can do this byyourself?
You don't need help.
You don't need a therapist.
No, you don't need a flint.
Um, and how do we reach out andtouch them so that they know we
(30:18):
care?
I think you know, this griefstuff, it's so uncomfortable to
talk about often as well forsome people.
SPEAKER_02 (30:25):
It absolutely is.
What did you find?
I I'm sorry for the loss and andthe life quake.
It is um having so many thingshappen at one time.
I don't know what that timeframe was for you, but it's
clearly happened in the in theperiod of time that you've been
working on the project from thecost of loneliness.
(30:47):
Um how are you doing?
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Um, every day's a journey, you know, and so I it's
um one step at a time.
But like you, as we talk abouthope, you know, the the light
seems closer some days andfurther some days.
But I do think um that findingthat support system as we talk
about loneliness and not havingthat is critical.
And you never know where thatsupport, well, I won't say that.
(31:14):
If you're if you're JenHatmaker, you built that support
system all your life.
If you read her book, theylisten to her talk, all of her
six friends there.
SPEAKER_02 (31:22):
Jen moves in the same circles I always have in
terms of the online community.
So yes, so my online communitywas crucial when I was going
through grief.
SPEAKER_01 (31:36):
Of course.
And hers, she has six bestfriends that live within two
blocks of her house.
They have a golf cart that theyvisit each other every day.
And you know what?
Those kinds of things, not allof us are that fortunate to have
that kind of a friendset.
But to build community aroundyourself so that if and when
those times do come for any inthat community, you're there to
(31:58):
support each other.
And you never know.
I have just reconnected in thelast three years with two
friends that I had not seen in50 years.
We play competitive tennistogether as children.
And reconnecting has been one ofthe most amazing blessings for
all three of us that we'veprobably ever had in our lives.
You never know where thatsupport, from which that support
(32:22):
may come as an example.
Being open, I think, is the key,isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (32:26):
I'm gonna ask you a question.
Those two friends, have theygone through anything similar to
what you're going through rightnow?
Uh yes, they have.
So I will I will say one of thethings I learned in my grief.
Yeah um, my I had I got a grieftherapist, and she said to me,
one of the things that is reallychallenging in grief is that
(32:52):
your entire life breaks intothree groups.
People who show up for you andare there and become your core
people, people who disappearentirely, and people who show up
a little bit.
Sometimes they say the rightthing, sometimes they say the
wrong thing.
The challenge is that they'reall being shuffled.
(33:14):
A number of the people that youwere positive were gonna be in
your core, show up for you, beyour people.
SPEAKER_00 (33:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:22):
Sometimes they end up in the disappear entirely
group.
And sometimes the people who arethere for you are people you
haven't spoken to in years.
That's right.
And that's what made me think ofthat, because I found that some
of the people who have shown upand and been here for me are
people I hadn't spoken to inyears.
(33:44):
And part of that piece wasbecause some of those people
were people who had had asimilar experience and had the
capacity to understand whatgrief needs to breathe.
Um, and many of the people whohad to disappear fell into the
(34:05):
this is too big, this is tooheavy, I I don't want it.
And they had to walk awaybecause the grief was so unknown
to them and too much.
Yeah.
And so it's I I wondered if thetwo the reconnection was that
(34:27):
you guys are in a a stage whereit the beauty of life allowed
you to reconnect having hadsimilar experiences, but what a
gift.
SPEAKER_01 (34:37):
It is a gift, and you you just said so many to me,
very wise things there as we arefriends for one another.
And I think I I do want to cutsome slack to those who aren't
there because I think it isoften overwhelming.
They don't know how to do it,they don't want to say the wrong
thing.
We don't teach those skills.
(34:58):
And for me, as I think aboutloneliness, and I bring it back
to that, and I think about howwe equip our children to deal
with social connections,especially in a world where it's
all about this.
Yeah, yeah, man.
It's all about texting, it's allabout all of that.
You know, how many reels can Iwatch a day on TikTok or
whatever that may be?
Are we working now to help ourchildren build the skills they
(35:22):
need of empathy, of caring, oflistening, of connecting?
I am.
You know, you are yay, yay, yay,you.
I work very hard at it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:35):
But I know a lot of parents don't.
SPEAKER_01 (35:36):
In our world, and I'm not even this this is not an
indictment of any individualparent.
Of course.
It's just our world is changing.
You know, at school is not thesame thing.
And and you know, they'rethey're doing it on the
playground, whatever it may be,whether we're there or not.
SPEAKER_02 (35:52):
And I And we also have to shift some.
Like we have to, we have toparent differently than we were
parented, and we have to havedifferent conversations that
sometimes it doesn't occur tous.
I I'll give you an example.
Yeah, my there was a time whenmy daughter was asked to spend
(36:12):
the night at someone's house,and she was asked via her phone,
and it was mom, can I spend thenight at so and so's house?
Yep.
And I said, No, baby, you can'tbecause you know Cooper has a
game tomorrow at such and suchtime.
And so she went back and saidno.
(36:33):
Okay.
And so I said, Sweet baby girl.
And at the time she was probably10, right?
I did allow my kids to havephones early because my theory,
working in the social mediaspace, I was in the blogging
space.
Um my theory was I it was easierto be up in their business young
(36:57):
and for them to understand myrole up in their business than
it was to try to get up in theirbusiness, giving them a phone at
14 and then try to explain tothem.
I told them very early, if youwant things to be private, write
in a journal.
I will never read your journal.
But your phone, anything you puton your phone, I'm here to tell
you.
Somebody else has access to it.
(37:18):
If someone else can have accessto it, I can have access to it.
Your question is not what wouldJesus do?
Your question is what would mymom say if this went viral?
SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
So they have new business that they went.
SPEAKER_02 (37:28):
Yes, before your question.
Now they're older now, they're21 and 18 now, but at the time,
so I realized that I had toexplain to her and train her,
just like our kids aren't usedto answering the phone and
saying, hello, Mr.
and Mrs.
So-and-so, may I please speakto?
Because that's how I learned toanswer the phone.
(37:49):
So we have a generation of kidswho don't know how to pick up
the phone and call to make areservation, right?
So I've had to train my kids inphone etiquette.
SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (38:00):
Because that was something they never
automatically learned.
They never called someone'shouse and said, hey, Mrs.
So-and-so, this is Cooper orDelaney.
May I please speak to, right?
So I mean, I've called my kids'phones or called their friends'
phones and had the friendsanswer the phone, yo, right?
(38:22):
Because there's just if we don'tthink about it, and again, also
not an indictment.
It's just if it doesn't occur toyou because it's not something
you're watching them do.
So it's only when it comes up dowe actually say, Oh, I have to
teach you how to do that, don'tI?
SPEAKER_01 (38:42):
That's right.
That's exactly right.
And I, you know, as I again, asI think about loneliness, the
best thing we can do is preventit, isn't it?
You know, absolutely teachingour young ones the skills of
listening and empathy andsharing and caring and all of
those things, they should comenaturally.
But as we socialize in our newways, we're not necessarily
(39:05):
focusing on the same thing.
And all of us are busy,everybody's working full-time
now.
We have to was it the economyand everything else going on in
our world?
You know, so picking up on thosecues, being you know, cognizant
of it and intentional about it,is so important because if we
give them the skills they needas children to socialize and be
(39:26):
with one another, and this hasnothing to do again with
introvert, extrovert, any ofthat.
It's how do we give others whatthey need in terms of listening
and caring?
And how do we get what we needin that same way?
So, how do we build friendships,to your point, Danielle?
Is right kind of the bottom linehere, wherever they may be.
Helping folks do that then helpsprevent loneliness down the
(39:47):
line, not totally preventing it,clearly, but it certainly helps
us be aware of do I have thatcommunity?
Do I have those friends that aresupportive?
Um, it, you know, this thisloneliness connection stuff is
free.
We don't need a medicine for it.
We don't need to worry aboutinsurance.
It's picking up the phone andcalling someone we care about.
(40:08):
It's asking them, like you didme at the beginning of this, how
are you?
Not just, how are you?
Fine, thanks.
Next.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (40:16):
But asking me, I legitimately care.
I mean, I I want yes, I want theanswer.
And I think that when you saidthat you'll you give people
grace for you know, grief beingheavy.
And and I, while I understandthat, I have tried very hard to
teach my children that in thatsituation it isn't about you.
(40:37):
Um, yes, it may be hard for you,but I something stuck with me
years and years and years ago.
And and people who listen to thepodcast will have heard me say
this a handful of times.
Um, in the early mom bloggingdays, there was a uh a mom that
was a friend of ours who losther daughter very young, and she
was the same age as Delaney atthe time, and our community
(40:59):
rallied around her.
And at the time, she eventuallywrote about losing her young
daughter.
And what she had to say stuckwith me at the time.
And it was a time we still hadanswering machines, and she
said, So grateful for everyonewho called, so grateful for
people who left messages.
I didn't have the capacity tocall a lot of people back.
(41:19):
And a lot of times I didn't havethe capacity to answer the
phone.
But what I will tell you was theloudest voice for me, the
loudest noise, were all of thepeople who didn't call because
it was too hard for them.
And at that moment, I became theperson who always calls.
And when I call, regardless ofwhether or not someone answers,
(41:43):
I will say, don't add me to yourto-do list.
Please just know that I'm hereand I'm thinking about you and I
love you and I'm sorry, whateverI feel needs to be said at the
time.
And because I think it'simportant for someone who's
grieving to know they aren'talone.
And as hard as it is for me,nowhere near as hard as it is
(42:09):
for the person who's who's goingthrough the loss.
And because I've always I'veI've worked very hard to do the
best I can to equip my childrenwith empathy and compassion,
because I do think those arequalities that to some degree as
(42:30):
a society we are lacking.
In some in some level, we wedon't have in excess.
So I want my kids to to at leasttry.
It's not always going to happen.
Um, but at least try becausegrief is one of the loneliest
(42:51):
experiences.
SPEAKER_01 (42:52):
Here's the thing.
I'm gonna give folks a tool hereand make it and make it easy.
And I and I just really thiscame to my soul recently when
one of my best friends died in abicycle accident.
Um, and and it's justheartbreaking right here in the
same where I am.
Her husband is also a dearfriend of mine and has been for
(43:14):
50 something years.
Um, and I when I went to visitwith him after she died, I
thought, oh gosh, what do I say?
How do I do this?
It's it's not comfortable.
And then I realized I don't haveto say a word.
I just have to be there.
All she wanted was for him totalk.
So all I had to say, what a toolthis is, I think.
(43:38):
Show up to your point and thenjust say, You want to talk, how
are you?
Stories came out about her andhim and us, and you know, wanted
to tell me what happened in theaccent, all the things that
there was nothing uncomfortableat all about it.
And healing happens when youreally feel hurt.
(43:59):
So just being there, you'rehelping someone else heal just
by letting them talk andlistening.
And it takes pressure off, Ithink, us having to decide will
I say the wrong thing, will Iupset them?
Yeah, will I make it worse?
All the things that go throughour heads as to why it's too
uncomfortable.
And you're right, that's aboutus in some in some respects.
Then we own that, I guess, ifthat's where you are.
(44:21):
But just sitting and listeningin a quiet way is the best we
can probably do for those whoare lonely and grieving.
Um and it it it's that part'snot hard.
SPEAKER_02 (44:33):
Sit and thank you so much for being here with me.
Where can people learn moreabout the Cost of Loneliness
Project?
SPEAKER_01 (44:41):
At our website, theCostofLoneliness.com.
SPEAKER_02 (44:44):
Fantastic.
And where can is that wherepeople can best connect with
you?
SPEAKER_01 (44:48):
It is indeed.
There's a way right there forfor people to connect with me as
well.
And I would love to.
Thank you.
Thank you for the honor of beingon your podcast with you.
It's been wonderful.
SPEAKER_02 (44:58):
It has been wonderful having you here, Lucy
Rose.
Thank you so, so much.
And friends, thank you forjoining us.
I so hope we have met youexactly where you are, and that
this has been a bit of light anda bit of goodness, and that you
have learned something, and thatthere is a piece of this that
you can turn around and take andshare with the people you know
(45:19):
and you love.
And if you have found somethinggood and helpful that you will
take the time to review or likethe podcast, and until next
time, please take such good careof you.
I can't wait to see you again.
Thank you for being here.
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