December 15, 2024 • 66 mins
Discover the power of hope and resilience through the inspiring journey of Cheryl Aguilar, the founding director of Hope Center for Wellness in Washington DC. Cheryl, a passionate advocate for the Latino community, shares her personal story as an immigrant from Honduras and her transformative path to healing by embracing therapy despite societal stigma. Her story serves as a testament to the courage it takes to seek support and her unwavering dedication to decolonizing therapy and social work for the benefit of her community.
Join us as we explore Cheryl's journey that highlight the healing power of connection and cultural roots. We discuss her return to Honduras and her participation in the Latino Social Work Conference in Oaxaca, which reignited her connection to indigenous practices in social work. Cheryl opens up about her grief journey after losing her father to COVID-19, sharing how it deepened her understanding of identity and spirituality, ultimately leading to unexpected growth and healing.
Our conversation also sheds light on the resilience within immigrant communities and the importance of integrating cultural and spiritual practices into therapy. We touch upon the theory of self-psychology and the impact of societal dynamics on mental health, especially in the face of political and economic challenges. Cheryl's insights, combined with her commitment to fostering hope and unity among black and brown communities, offer a powerful reminder of the enduring strength found in shared struggles and the guiding light of hope.
F.L.Y. L.I.B.R.E. a guide for healing and liberation can be purchased here: amzn.to/4iCzAAM
Get Dr. McBride's book "Becoming Changemakers" to explore more stories of resilience and community transformation. Connect with the Become Center at becomecenter.org or email dmcbride@becomecenter.org.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Buenas familia, soy Jose, rico or Rico, if you know
me from the hood.
Thank you so much for yourattention today.
It means everything to me, andI want to welcome you to Hope
Dealer, which is a podcast aboutour journey towards hope,
resilience and joy through thestories that we carry about our
(00:25):
return home, and my intentionfor our time together is to
remind us that we carry powerfulmedicine within us that is our
guide to our transformation.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
I am so grateful to be able tointroduce you to incredible
(00:46):
people, incredible spirits thatwill share their journeys with
us.
(01:09):
Today was reminded of abeautiful sunrise, that this
transformation and this journeyis not something that we take on
our own.
It's something that we do inrelationship with everything the
elements, all living creaturesand all people on this earth.
And one of those people on thisearth that I'm so excited to
(01:30):
get to talk with us is CherylAguilita.
Cheryl is somebody who's goingto blow your socks away.
She is the founding director ofHope Center for Wellness out in
Washington DC, and she is oneof the leading advocates for the
overall wellness of our Latinocommunity, of our gente, through
(01:53):
the decolonization of therapyand social work, so I'm very
excited to have Cheryl speakwith us.
Cheryl, thank you so much forbeing with us.
Cheryl, thank you so much forbeing with us.
I want to welcome you to ourpodcast and would love for you
to do an introduction, a briefintroduction of yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, well, thank you , jose.
I'm delighted to be here.
Muchas muchas gracias.
And what an introduction.
No pressure there, like nopressure there.
I am really honored to be inthis space and I cannot say no
to anything that starts withhope.
So, hope Dealer I love the nameand we need more hope in this
(02:34):
world.
But what can I tell you aboutme?
Soy inmigrante, soy Hondureña.
I always kind of tell people Ihave the best of all worlds as
an immigrant, as a Honduran.
I grew up in New Jersey, I nowlive in Washington DC, and some
of the things that make me mostproud and fulfilled about what I
(02:57):
do and who I am are my roles.
Outside of what I do for work.
I love what I do as a socialworker, and that's one aspect of
myself.
But what I really love is beingan aunt, una tia.
I love, like my nephew, mynieces, being a daughter.
I'm a wife, I'm a friend, I'm alistener, I am someone that
(03:18):
people can count on, and thoseare my favorite things to be in
this world.
And then, when I'm not doingthat, I'm doing my passion work,
which is social work.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Love that and I want to get to know you a little bit.
Cheryl, you know, we met manyyears ago and as I've learned
more about you, you know, one ofthe things that always sparks
me when I get to know people isobviously we're going to talk
about your path to where you arenow, but I would love to know a
little bit about how yourjourney started.
(03:52):
You know, in the first episodeI talked about how my healing
journey started when I was youngand realizing it when I came
across the border into the US.
We'd love to know.
You know, now that you've hadsome time to reflect, now that
you are more conscious aboutyour healing journey, what can
(04:15):
you share about?
You know, a pivotal moment orsomething that now, when you
think back, is what put you onthis journey now.
It could be in your childhood,it could be through your
schooling.
We'd love for you to tell us alittle bit about a story, about
how you believe your journeystarted to where you are now.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah, wow, thank you for that question.
You sound like my therapist.
I'm going to tell you a littlebit about what we're talking
therapy.
But you know, it's sointeresting.
One thing loved the city, lovedthe friends I was making, but I
was really depressed and I wasreally anxious and I didn't
(05:14):
quite understand it because Iwas like, oh, I have the job of
my life, like the job of mydreams, I'm in a great city, I'm
doing great work, and yet I wassad, profoundly sad, and
anxious.
And I remember going to atherapist and I was really young
, I didn't really know muchabout therapy, and on session
(05:35):
one she gave me interpretationsabout my life and as a therapist
, that's not what I do on thefirst day and I was like, no, no
, that doesn't resonate, that'snot true, that's not.
You know, that's not what mylife is about.
But she was, she was thereright now that I can kind of
reflect on what her reflectionswere.
That was my first connectionwith therapy and then my first
(05:57):
exposure to how, as a community,we feel about mental health.
Because I remember telling someof my friends, my Latino
friends, that I was going to atherapist and the reaction was
kind of like, well, you're sostrong, but, um, you, you can do
it, you're so capable.
And I had to really fight thosecomments because not only were
(06:19):
they stigmatizing, I was like,well, I'm still strong and I
need support right now.
You know, like it doesn't haveto be one or the other, it can
be both.
But something that I came tounderstand in my healing journey
is how some of the things thatI have been through in life are
(06:39):
the gifts that allowed me to beable to do what I work.
So when I I would say that myjourney towards healing began
when my mother had to make areally hard choice to migrate to
the United States, she migratedwith my older siblings, two of
my older sisters and my youngerbrothers, and I stayed in
(07:02):
Honduras with my dad and as achild, as a teenager, I had a
really rough time with thatseparation.
A few years later, our mothercourageously came and got us and
we were able to move to theUnited States with her and my
sisters, and I remember as ateenager, I was considered maybe
(07:25):
rebellious in how Idemonstrated how I was feeling.
You know, I think teens andchildren, we don't necessarily
have the vocabulary to share howwe feel and we show it in terms
of behaviors, and I think thatexperience wasn't really
understood.
I think I came to understandthat experience and how I might
have reacted later on in life asan adult, as a young adult,
(07:50):
when I started my healingjourney, just recognizing the
choices that I would make inrelationships or how sometimes
we seek external things to fillourselves up, and I didn't have
understanding of those voicesuntil I began my healing journey
.
But kind of fast forward totoday and maybe like years ago,
(08:15):
when I started my work in socialwork, I began to work with
families, immigrant familieslike myself who had experience
in reunification, and I began towork with the youth.
So the youth I have a soft spotfor children and youth and I
(08:35):
began to hear my story throughtheir stories and I was like, ah
, this seems familiar.
Ah, this seems familiar and Ibecame really biased towards
helping them out a lot more thanmaybe the parents, you know.
I didn't realize then that myown experience was a bias that
kind of impacted how I was doingmy work.
So it was like all about theyouth and also like family
(08:58):
therapy and helping parents andchildren come together in a
healthy way, providing parentslike psychoeducation about what
the children were experiencingand so on.
So that was my first exposureback to my own story, reflected
by some of my clients, fastforward to 2020.
(09:24):
Our practice, the Hope Centerfor Wellness.
We began to work with familieswho were ripped apart by Trump's
government and parents weredetained, children were sent to
shelters, separated for manymonths.
Some parents were deported.
I began to work with thefamilies, specifically with the
parents, and I began to tuneinto their experience as the
(09:48):
parents' experience in a waythat I don't think I had before.
And in my work with parents,part of the work was to teach
them about what the childrenwere experiencing and in a
support group that I had withparents, I realized that this
information really wasn'tworking.
(10:08):
Like you know, nothing I saidmade a difference in this group,
in a support group I had, andthat's when I began to
understand that we cannot askparents to help their kids if no
one has seen their pain andsupported them through their
pain, able to reconnect or maybesee parental experience in a
way I hadn't had access before.
(10:31):
And I began to really understand, like my mother's choices and
in a way that I might have notunderstood them before.
And it's like as a society, wehave so many expectations for
parents and yet are we askingthe right questions about what
do you need?
We cannot expect them todevelop and raise well, good
(10:52):
human beings if we're not givingthem what they need to be able
to do that.
So I say, you know, before Iused to say that I stumbled upon
this work by mistake, you know,having been in public relations
before and then I ended up inmental health, and then I see
that it was like my ownexperiences that led me to this
(11:13):
work and I am so grateful for,like, really hard things that I
endure in life, because it'swhat has given me the
opportunity to be able to dothis work and understand it in a
way that if I didn't have thatexperience I don't think I would
.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Wow, cheryl, there's a lot there and I got a couple
of follow-ups, but the first oneis I think you would agree with
me that everybody in publicrelations needs to mental health
work.
That's the first part, yes, yes,the second part is so.
(11:49):
What resonated with me with whatyou just mentioned, is that
both my parents came to Chicagofrom Mexico and left my brother
and I in Mexico City, and so wewere reunited with them after
(12:11):
two or three years in Chicago,and that's how my brother and I
crossed the border on our ownthrough Tijuana in the trunk of
a station wagon.
And so that separation that youspeak about, I know it very
well and I think that's probablya reason why we see each other
in the way we see each otherright, because for me, what that
(12:35):
has flourished, what the seedthat was planted, was my ability
to connect with people in a waythat's unusual with other folks
, right, and I think that'sprobably your gift also.
But going back to the lessonsthat you learned, I would love
to hear a little bit more aboutwhat's that you know.
(13:01):
You mentioned earlier that yousaw it from the perspective of
the children the separation, andthen, most recently, during the
pandemic and that horrificimmigration policy saw it from
the perspective of the parents.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
What did that change of perspective teach you and how
do you feel about that?
New learning or healing?
Am engaged in some research isthat when we talk about
immigration, we should also betalking about family separation.
Part of the immigrationexperience is leaving people
that we love behind physicallyand then reunited potentially
(13:59):
with other people, and I thinkthe story about separation is to
be the front and center of ourconversations what we hear from
(14:27):
others society, politics,environment, and how it's really
up to us to really undo some ofthe learning that no longer
serves us, you know.
I always say you know, as anadult, we have an opportunity to
unlearn things that no longerwork for us and relearn new
things, and I think something Ilearned is that we may not
listen enough to one another.
(14:48):
When I was able to set aside mypreconceived notions about the
family separation experience andmy own experience and really
listen to the pain of theparents, I was able to see a
story that I hadn't seen in away that I understand it now,
but I think that took first somehealing to be able to figure
out why do I feel this way andalso to listen in a way that I
(15:12):
hadn't.
And I think as a society wesometimes as you see this in
social media, you see thiseverywhere we're so pressed to
have the right answer, we're sopressed to want to have
solutions, we're so pressed tohave our point across that we
don't listen to one another inthe way that we should.
So I think that's what I hopefor the world is that we can
(15:33):
take the space and set asidewhat we're feeling to really try
to understand what the otherperson is thinking and feeling
as well.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
And why do you think this change occurred within you
in the recent example withparents?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, I think both.
I've been going to therapy fora very long time and I had to
face some really important truththat I hadn't been able to
uncover.
To uncover, I think, when wetalk about children and youth
and then these children andyouth become young adults and
(16:09):
adults.
Sometimes our pain, when ithasn't been witnessed or worked
through, is the only thing thatwe can see.
So it wasn't until I felt seenin my pain and was able to work
through that I could see someoneelse's pain in a way that I
could connect with.
So I think we as a society cando that to one another.
(16:33):
We can kind of mirror and tellpeople hey, like I'm sorry that
you're going through that.
That sounds really difficult,like some of our main needs as
people are to be seen, heard andunderstood and we need to be
able to figure out how to dothat to one another.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Wow, you're so right.
I mean and I think that that ispart of the reason why you know
, why you mentioned that justthe act of listening and being
able to put, not be able tolisten to people without putting
our biases and our assumptionsin the front or center of what
(17:10):
they're telling us, that soundsrelatively simple to do, but
where it's so difficult, if wedon't practice that, to be able
to do that right, that's such ait's, it's, uh, it's a practice
that takes intentionality, butalso something that's, um, that
you know, like you said, in inthe world we live in right now,
(17:31):
is so difficult to do.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Right and something you said that really kind of
resonates is how we, our worldand our healing is connected to
connections and relationships.
I think my own healing I'vebeen talking about my therapist
a lot, but he's not the onlysource of support that I have.
I think my friendships, mycolleagues, my like trusted
(17:58):
advisors, and my family andpeople that I can connect with
and talk about my story, who cankind of hold it with care I
think that has been an essentialpart of like my own healing and
what I see healing in others aswell, like my own healing and
what I see healing in others aswell.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, and actually that's why, frankly, the reason
I reached out to you, cheryl, Isaw recently, in the last six
months, your journey ofreturning home to Honduras and
then participating in the LatinoSocial Work Conference in
Oaxaca, and your sharing aboutyour own personal transformation
(18:47):
of going home and seeing moreindigenous or culturally
relevant or grounded practiceswithin the social work field.
You know, what you sharedreally just captivated me and
wanted to really learn or hearfrom you what you've learned and
(19:10):
what that means to you.
So I would love to see if youcould share a little bit about
both of those things.
I know they're very differentexperiences, but there is a
through line there.
I would love to hear you talkabout those two trips and what
those trips meant to you.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah well, thank you.
I agree, they're likeinterconnected in a way that I
didn't expect.
You know I call my Oaxaca tripa life-changing trip, but I'll
begin with my coming back toHonduras.
You know, since I had been inthe US, I have gone a few times
to Honduras and it took me avery long time, even though I
(19:48):
had the privilege to be able totravel back in a way that is
easier than most people, or somepeople are not able to travel
back.
It took me a very long time togo back and I think most of it
was out of fear.
You know, you hear reallynegative stories about what's
happening in Honduras theviolence, the sociopolitical
(20:10):
environment and so on and ittook me a very long time to go
back environment and so on, andit took me a very long time to
go back.
I was able to go back um 10years after having migrated I
was a young adult uh to visit myfather who had remained in
Honduras and and I reallyappreciated that trip and as a
kind of like the welcoming back,because after that I tried to
(20:32):
go as much as I could couldn'talways go as much as I wanted to
, but it really helped mereconnect back to a piece of me
that I felt was dormant.
You know, as an immigrant, as abi-cultural individual, I think
something that happens is thatwe come and we want to be like
(20:53):
others.
You know, we don't want to beperceived as different than we
may pass, and we adopt a newculture and sometimes we
unconsciously repress our ownculture.
So I think going back toHonduras was kind of a
reawakening, or the process ofreawakening and reconnection
with my own cultural, language,traditions and so on.
(21:14):
And so I have been going backto Honduras in the last, you
know, few decades and my fatherpassed away in 2020 due to COVID
, and that was really difficultand it was.
I had been working with themigrant community for a very
(21:35):
long time and helping clientswho were unable to go and be
with their loved ones duringtheir passing, and I remember
having that experience as welland think I couldn't go and be
with my father when he passedaway, and I remember every
single client that I have beenwith or supported through their
(21:58):
journey of grief and wonderingdid I do enough?
Did I understand that enough?
Because I now understood thepain of not being able to be
with your loved ones when youwant to and that you know grief,
it was very difficult in thebeginning and that you know
(22:18):
grief it was very difficult inthe beginning.
It's you know.
Grief is this like kind ofroller coaster.
If we have experienced it, youhave some good days, some bad
days.
I feel like I had enough energysometimes to like get up, be
with my clients and go back tobed and I spent some time like
that and then eventually I beganto kind of hear my dad's dichos
like in my head, like you gotto keep going, you know this
(22:42):
shall pass, and I began to kindof hear his voice in my head and
I began to go on walks.
I would go on very long walks.
Then I began to experiencebeing in spirit and community
with that, like when I heard,when I saw the trees, when I
felt the wind, and I just feltthat connection in a way that I
(23:04):
had never experienced being innature and connecting me to like
an ancestor or like a loved onewho's passed.
And that became part of how Idealt with grief and so my grief
has also been, you know, Ithink, those of us who
experienced grief in really deepways.
It also gives us a lot of giftsand I feel like I got to know
(23:28):
my dad a lot more through mygrief than sometimes when he was
alive, but my grief alsoallowed me to be able to
reconnect to culture.
I was a lot more curious abouthis experience, wanting to learn
what things that he had beenthrough, and that's something
that I encourage people to dowhile we have our loved ones
(23:50):
alive to ask questions.
We want to be able to passinformation from generation to
generation, and I became reallycurious about that experiences.
And then the idea of likelegacy came up in my mind how do
we continue the work that ourparents, our abuelas, abuelos,
(24:10):
our ancestors, have began, andwe are a product of all of their
experiences and all of theirwork.
So I think I began to thinkabout how do we honor our loved
ones with the work that theyhave done.
And then I went to Oaxaca.
So fast forward to earlier thisyear I had the opportunity to
go to Oaxaca.
(24:30):
I had a scholarship from theAmerican Psychological
Association to go, and it was awhole bunch of social workers
wanting to really learn whattraditional healing meant and
how we incorporate it into ourwork.
And I think what I learnedthere one of the many things
that I learned is that we reallythrive in connection, like I
(24:51):
think the theme that you'rebringing up is so true, like our
healing and their studies.
They kind of talk about that.
We don't have to like bring theresearch up, but it's proven
the more connections we have,the longer our lives could be
and the more fulfilled our livescould be as well.
And I was always very curiousabout, well, how.
I would ask people, how do youdeal with mental health?
(25:13):
And they're like, well, what isthat?
You know, of course they knowabout mental health, but they
don't experience it, they don'ttalk about it in the same way
that we do here.
I think one of the things Iexperienced about Oaxaca, it was
like there was a festival everysingle day I was there.
There was music, there was likea sense of like rejoicing and
maybe party is not the rightword but like celebrating, and
(25:42):
there was that spirit ofcelebration that I felt like is
part of the healing that mostpeople experience.
But also, you know, weconnected with local curanderas
and curanderos.
We learned about integratinglimpias into our work, into our
work, and what I kind of felt,coming back to the US, is that
we have our mental health storyabout Latinos in mental health
(26:02):
is short-sighted.
One of the narratives is thatLatinos don't come to therapy
enough because of the stigma,the negative stigma about
therapy, which is true.
That is part of the story thatwe need to recognize.
We need to break the stigma.
But another important part ofthe story is that they have
(26:23):
different ways of healing.
It's not just traditionaltherapy they may go to and it's
not just the church, which hasbeen part of the narrative.
They may go to a localcurandera.
They may really connect withthe neighbors and the community
members within their communities, and those are other forms of
healing that we need to honor.
And as I think about this work,I think for me and other social
workers and other therapistsand other healers is that it's
(26:46):
our responsibility to learnthose other ways and if we're
not competent in those otherways, it's our responsibility to
connect people to those otherways.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Wow, again, there's so much there.
First, my deepest condolencesfor your father, and not knowing
how it is to grieve your fatherduring a period where you
cannot be there with him musthave been terrible, and I'm
(27:19):
sorry that you had to experiencethat.
My father just passed away twomonths ago and I was fortunate
to be the home care provider forhim and grieve with him and set
up the ceremony for histransition for five months, and
(27:40):
so I was able to experience whatI wish you would have been able
to experience in a way thatallows.
I love what you said about youknow that the grieving that you
were able to allow to grievewith your father after he
(28:00):
transitioned through therelationships in nature and
others.
So I'm glad that you were ableto experience that, and I
couldn't agree with you moreabout how we are able to connect
our grief to legacy.
Wow, what an incredible way toposition grieving in our
(28:29):
community and within ourfamilies, and you know I myself
just did a curandero class atthe University of Mexico with
the hierbas and how that is sucha powerful way for us to use
(28:50):
the energy of you know again, ofthe medicines that are around
us to help us and to be able togo through the grieving process
and helping our family membersto go through that grieving
process.
So a wonderful, incredibleinsight.
(29:14):
Incredible insight.
I'm wondering, you know, as youwere talking about the different
practices that you learned inOaxaca, and you know I love your
reaction to their reaction ofwhat is mental health right?
(29:38):
Because it's.
You know, I started readingthis book, a Blackfoot family
therapist that uses theBlackfoot Indians cosmology of
(30:05):
self-actualization and communityactualization and her position
is there's no such thing asself-actualization.
People self-actualize incommunity.
Obviously we express it in ourindividual identity, but
self-actualization happens incommunity.
(30:29):
Could go a little bit deeper,like you know, after going to
Oaxaca and understanding more ofthe more comprehensive outlook
of mental wellness and communitywellness, how has that impacted
the way you're approaching yourwork back in DC?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah, thank you.
That's a great question and mydeepest condolences to you as
well with your death passing.
Yeah, you know, I always Ireally appreciated this trip for
many reasons and I think,coming back to how I have
experienced my work, then, whenI was in Oaxaca, I learned about
(31:19):
healer Maria Sabina, who usedto use a very recognized figure
in Oaxaca and actually in theworld.
I did not know about her untilthen.
She's someone who usedmushrooms as part of like sacred
healing ceremonies and I hadthe opportunity to spend time
with her nephew, her grandson,one of her grandchildren, and I
(31:42):
think that, that, coming back tolegacy building, I was really
in awe of what he's doing in hiscommunity to carry out his, her
legacy.
He's doing in his community tocarry out his, her legacy and,
um, and coming back, I think howthat has changed my work is
that I am really more curiousnow to understand what the
(32:07):
communities I work with, whatthey understand, what they, how
they have experienced mentalhealth and how it's talked about
in their communities.
A lot more curious tounderstand how they have
survived up until now.
I think one thing that I alwayssay is that people have
survived the world in the waythey can before they come to my
(32:31):
office like, and I need to becurious about how they did that
because we're going to tap intotheir strength.
But I think now I have a lotmore curiosity about that how is
it that you deal with thisreally rough moment in life
within your community?
And I'm a lot more curious tounderstand how I can support
(32:51):
that and bring that into ourspace.
So, for instance, when a clienttalks about spirituality, we
may bring that in as part oftheir treatment goals or as part
of the interventions that weuse.
You know, if prayer issomething important for that
client, how do we build it intosomething they do?
So I think the way that I haveapplied it and continue to apply
(33:15):
it is one what I do in sessionsand how I ask questions.
I'm a lot more curious aboutreframing mental health.
I am learning listening abouthow we reframe mental health for
our clients and what healingmeans to them.
And healing may not mean likecoming to therapy for a very
(33:36):
long time.
It may be like I want to talkto someone, and right now I'm
talking to you, but then I wantto be able to talk to my hermana
or my hermana or my tia, thesame way that I'm talking to you
with courage, you know.
So being able to understandwhat can we do in this space
that is translatable outside ofthis space in a way that honors
(33:56):
your values and your culture.
You know, something that kindof came up for me and I don't
know if I'm going somewhere else, but I'm inspired by what you
said.
There's the theory that Irecently learned school
self-psychology, that when Ilearned about that theory it
(34:19):
really felt like home.
It talks about that, for ourwell-being and for us to form a
cohesive sense of self, or likestrong self-esteem, we are
dependent upon our environment,and initially our environment.
It's our caregivers, ourparents, and then that extends
(34:43):
outward to our teacherscommunity, the government and
everyone around us.
And then in this theory, thetheory looks at three major
needs that we have a human being, we all have a need of twinship
having other people that we canrelate to, that are like us,
that think like us, that we canfind sameness with.
So when it talks about the,when I think about the Latino
community and the immigrantcommunity, that's such an
(35:04):
important element of when we aresomewhere else to find other
people that sound like us, thatlook like us, that we can relate
to.
Another psychological need withthe need to be met within.
This theory is mirroring.
We all have the need to havepeople affirm who we are, our
strengths, our qualities, ourgoodness, and then we all have
the need to have strongidealizing figures or people
(35:28):
within our lives that we admire,whose strength and calmness and
sense of self we caninternalize.
And this begins at homesometimes and then it extends
outwards, and that's somethingthat I feel like we can all
strive towards providing.
We can all strive towardsproviding individually, as
(35:49):
families, as communities, asgovernment, as environment, as
communities as government asenvironment.
I don't want to get toopolitical, but one of the things
that we saw when families wereseparated by the Trump
administration is that they didnot have an idealizing figure, a
government that they felt wasprotecting them.
So in this instance, thegovernment unconsciously
(36:14):
symbolized an idealized figurethat totally failed these
families, who were separatedreally abruptly.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Wow, so yes, I do want to go there.
That's actually my nextquestion, cheryl.
So you've been.
We've been syncing up prettypretty well.
Just want to share the name ofthe book and the author that I
just started reading.
It's called TransformationBeyond Greed Native
(36:53):
Self-Actualization and it'swritten by Dr Sidney writes this
she introduced this indigenousself-assessment tool that
basically gives a different inyour field.
I forgot what they're called,but they're like different
(37:16):
spheres of how indigenous orcolonized you are in seven
different domains.
Right, and she does thatbecause, through her practice,
she wants to know where you arein these domains to be able to
customize a therapy session foryou.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
I love that.
I'm definitely going to readthat up.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, yeah.
And what it made me think thosethree elements that you
mentioned.
I would love to go a little bitdeeper into them, because you
know you are in DC and for me, Iwould be remiss by not asking
you this question from apsychological, therapeutic lens.
(38:03):
You know, right, we're we'restill recovering from a poly
crisis of the pandemic, theeconomy, the, you know, the
(38:26):
realization that we're in anoligarchy, not a democracy, like
all of these things, theseparations, the.
You know the, the threats of,you know, project 2025 and,
specifically, the specter,possibility of mass deportations
(38:46):
.
In DC, who have spoken to a lotof these families and you can't
get away from this environment,if you wanted to, specifically
because you're in the middle ofdowntown, right, how do you
understand this moment, again,from your perspective?
(39:08):
And I want to ask you how doyou understand this moment?
And then the second is like,what do you think we are called
to do to get out of this moment?
And I know those are two reallybig questions, but I would love
to just get your insights on.
(39:28):
You know, what is it that youthink this moment is about and
what is it that we are called todo?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yeah, Wow, Wow.
It's like the million dollarquestion right there.
You know it's interesting.
Someone recently asked me asimilar question.
Actually, one of my clientsreally wanted to know my
thoughts about how I feel aboutthis time.
Yeah, and I feel like thismoment is about multiple things
(40:02):
that we need to hold.
I think this moment for many andI would say the majority of us,
is about fear, pain, butthere's also this is also a
moment of opportunity and hope,and I think we can acknowledge
that it is terrifying to thinkwhat our world, what our country
(40:23):
and our world will look likewith an elected official.
That is not for us.
We can acknowledge that it'sfearful, that it's anxiety
provoking.
We can acknowledge that there'spain in how we have seen racism
(40:44):
rise from the shadows.
I mean, it's been there, butnow it's palpable.
Like now there's no filter fromanyone in sharing how they feel
about people of color, aboutour communities.
Like pain in acknowledging thatthe world that or the country
we might have felt we lived in,has these other aspects of
(41:07):
itself.
You know that we might have, Imight have thought that we're
not as prevalent anymore, butnow it's evident that it is as
prevalent as always been, butit's been hiding and now it's
been emboldened to show up inways where feelings are not
acknowledged.
I also think that there'sopportunity and hope, and I'm a
(41:30):
hopeful optimistic.
I could be a realist, but Ithink there's always hope in
which we had many others beforeus who have paved the way for
social justice, who have pavedthe way for healing, who have
paved the way for action, andwhat we have seen time after
time is that when communitiesband together, we not only heal
(41:52):
together but we can overcometogether.
So for me, that's the hope justto see the momentum, the new
momentum, rise with, you know,with Kamala Harris, with
candidate Kamala Harris.
We're seeing that momentumhappen.
We're seeing people cometogether and I think that's my
hope that we realize that thismoment is about coming together,
(42:14):
continuing our hope, instillinghope in others and moving each
other towards action, inwhichever way that looks like.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, thank you, and you know, one of the things what
sparked this question in me isyour response about you know
what you hope to do is inspirepeople to talk with others about
what they're feeling and whatthey want to do, with courage,
(42:44):
with my role, right, and I thinkthe way I see this moment is
everything that you said andthis is an opportunity or this.
The calling right now, Ibelieve, particularly in our
community, is to speak withcourage.
And you know, call out the fearand the demagogy.
(43:12):
I'll say that word.
You know, call out the fear,call out the divisiveness.
Calling out and back to yourpoint is to be able to
articulate a future and amulticultural nation and society
(43:37):
where we all fit in and whereour community and others will
never be again used as ascapegoat for issues that are
actually not caused by us, butwe have been harmed by the
issues of the inequality in ourcountry.
(43:59):
You know you have the rightwing trying to say that
immigrants are the cause of thatinequality and we know that we
are the ones that are harmed themost because of that inequality
.
So, given what you believe, youknow what you just said is, in
(44:20):
terms of what we are called todo.
What do you think your role isin helping people coming
together and being able tofollow the footsteps and
continue the legacy of thosecivil rights leaders that have
preceded us, those civil rightsleaders that have preceded us?
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah, thank you, and I agree.
I really appreciate hearingyour perspective about the Kersh
, because I think it'sabsolutely.
This is a time to be courageousin whatever it is that we, in
every aspect of our life, butwhen it comes to politics as
well, and when it comes toowning our truth and be able to
defend our truth of who we are,you know, being courageous to
(45:05):
show up as authentic as we are,because that's the beauty of our
community, like who we are, thediversity within and what makes
us us.
My role wow, that's.
Thank you for that, you know.
My role is, I think, to continueto create and provide a safe
(45:27):
space for people to connect totheir strength and their courage
so they can go on and do out inthe world what they set out to
do, but also to create spacesthat are collective spaces and
we're doing that in differentforms collective spaces so we
can know that we're not alone.
(45:48):
I think, you know, when it comesto twinship, when it comes to
mirroring, now more than ever weneed those spaces where we can
affirm with one another like wegot this, you know, like we got
this as a community, and createthose spaces when we find
connections in times where wefeel isolated and where we may
(46:09):
feel like there's no more hope.
I think there's healing incommunity and collectiveness,
but it doesn't stop there.
I think, for me, we have to getpeople to vote.
We have to you vote, gettingout the vote becoming
(46:45):
naturalized when we're able topushing and advocating for the
rights for all immigrants andthe rights of all marginalized
communities.
And I think that as providers,but also as community members,
we need to really be thinkingabout voting right now for those
, for all of us in our community, to get active in some way or
(47:07):
another in our political process.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yes, yes, I'm a firm believer that healing, part of
the healing process, is action.
Right, it's not just, you know,talking about it and having
conversations.
There has to be some action forthe healing.
So I agree with you there.
(47:33):
And also, you know, I love theway that you know you see your
role as providing spaces forconnection and for mirroring.
I think we should make someshirts like that show that this
(47:53):
is part of the necessary work inour community.
I don't know if it's shirts orif it's a deck of cards or
something.
Something yes, right, that's thework.
Right, that is the work for usand as somebody I mean as
somebody that shares yourpractice of creating spaces and
(48:18):
being a circle keeper myself tobe able to make that happen.
You know, I also know howfulfilling, but also how energy,
how much energy that takes forus to be able to hold space and
be able to.
You know, because when you holdspace for people and you create
(48:41):
this container, you'reconstantly creating a kind of a
force field where people feelsafe within your force field and
you are entrusted by people tocome into this space where they
will be protected, where they'renot going to be judged, where
you are able to be courageousand honest with the mirroring.
(49:03):
And that takes energy, thattakes practice, that takes work
on your part.
So the next couple of questionsI want to ask you is how do you
practice?
I mean this way of sustainingyourself.
You know, I love the fact thatyou have the center of hope and
(49:27):
wellness.
How do you feed that hope?
What are the practices thathelp you maintain that positive
energy and allows you to createthose spaces with people you
work with?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah, one thing is I surround myself with amazing
individuals like you, you know,that fill my spirit.
That's definitely on the top ofmy list.
You know, I am really gratefulfor having a spiritual practice.
I think, first and foremost,I'm able to do this work through
my belief that there's a higherbeing, in my case God, that
(50:14):
helps me fulfill his vision formy work.
So I'm not necessarily workingbased on what I want to do in
the world, but more like I feellike I'm guided by what he calls
me to do.
That's a very sacred connectionfor me in how I wake up in the
morning.
And, well, the first thing I dois like every breath.
(50:34):
I just, I'm just so grateful tolike be able to like feel my
breath every morning Like I'malive.
What a gift, what a gift thatis, you know, um.
So I begin my morning kind oflike my healing routine or kind
of my staying essential routine,um, but like taking a few deep
breaths in the morning when Iwake up, just really feeling my
(50:57):
body like in my bed, really kindof feeling myself like with a
body scan.
I, you know there's times whereI'm not always good at that.
I have to always come back tolike my practices, because we're
not always perfect at thethings that we asked other
people to do.
You know, I'm the first onewhere like, oh, I'm telling
(51:17):
clients to do this, I'm notdoing it, I have to hold myself
accountable.
But but lately I created thispractice where you, oh, I'm
telling clients to do this, I'mnot doing it, I have to hold
myself accountable.
But lately I created thispractice where, you know, I get
up in the morning and do mybreathing, I may read a Bible
verse, and then I've been verydeliberate about not starting
work without creating a spacefor me, because I'm outpouring
(51:39):
so much and I'm like I cannotoutpour if I'm not filled from
within.
So I created this practice thatthe first thing I do every
morning is just go on a walk,and there's connection in that
because I get to share thisspace with one of my sisters and
my mom.
We all walk together fromdifferent places by phone and
we're like chismeando andtalking and like walking and
(52:02):
sharing, you know.
So it's a very special space.
You know, outside of that, um,you know, I have my own healing
space in in my therapy.
I, I, I think that's a veryspecial place.
This is the first time that Iever have therapy in Spanish.
Um so it's, it's been like atransformative experience.
(52:22):
You too, I'm like to say likeyou know, I don't want to be
like too, too.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Too grosera.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Too grosera aquí, but like to say, like one of our
big emotions, in Spanish, itfeels really good.
You know it feels really good.
You know it feels really good.
So you know, that's aprotective space that I don't
miss, like, that's just like myaccountability space, because if
I want to do this work, I alsohave to maintain some sort of
like well, maintain my mentalhealth very intact.
(52:58):
And then I well, I love to.
I well, I love to rest.
I love to rest, like I havelearned to listen to my body for
when it needs rest.
Um, I think I was sharing withyou the story when we talked
that I, um had called my bankand they had asked me what my
favorite hobby was, because thatwas a security question and I
(53:19):
was like god, what did I tellthem?
And I couldn't remember exactlywhat I had told them and I was
like sleeping.
And they're like yes, that'sthe answer because I love to nap
.
I love I think that's somethingI adopted from, like Honduras.
You know we used to have a napculture.
It's less like that now.
But well, my body's tired, likeI take a break.
(53:40):
You know, that's just as simpleas like that, you know, and
then I do a lot of things whenI'm not working to kind of feel
my spirits and my mind and myheart.
You know I love watching comedy,like anything that has to do
with like making me laugh.
You know I have to be in acertain mood to watch certain
(54:00):
type of TV.
So, like sometimes my husbandis like, do you want to watch
this movie?
And I'm like, does it haveviolence, Does it have this,
does it have that?
And I'm like, no, not today.
Today is not the day I love toread.
I love to read, I can, but I dohave a bad habit of buying the
next book before finishing thelast.
So I have a lot of books that Ihave to, that I started reading
(54:22):
and I still have to finish.
I love to read and, yeah, thoseare kind of like my grounding
spaces and even though it's beena little harder now that I am
pursuing a PhD, I do try tocreate some time for my
relationships, you know, for myfriendships, for my one on ones,
(54:45):
for my time with my family.
It may not be as much time as Iused to have with them before,
but I try to make it quality.
So when I'm, even if I'm withsomeone for like an hour, like I
try to be fully present in thatmoment, you know.
So that's a little bit abouthow I fill my cup.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
Those are wonderful practices and rituals and
connections, a verycomprehensive way of looking at
the work that you do.
Conversation today about that.
You're a very hopeful person,that you find hope in this
moment.
I know you're also working onyour PhD and you're starting to
(56:06):
plant this moment with the hopethat it will blossom two years
from now, five years from now,10 years from now that you know
you kind of see as your freedomdream of sorts that you know is
connected to what you weretalking about your legacy.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Hmm, you know, you kind of like brought a little
bit of a tear to my eye.
That is connected to what youwere talking about, your legacy.
You kind of like brought alittle bit of a tear to my eye
because this feels really bigbut also really important.
So I'm working to be reallycourageous, to lean in into that
dream and kind of quiet downfear of the overwhelm.
So part of my dream is tosomeday go back to Honduras and
(56:46):
be able to create healingopportunities or services or
anything that community may needin that area of
entrepreneurship being able tohelp people women specifically,
with entrepreneurship skills,helping youth with education,
(57:06):
well-being, and so a long-termdream of mine is to be able to
go back to the community thatkind of raised me up until I was
14 or 13 and be able to giveback.
I feel like I'm a product of thelove of my parents.
I'm a product of people whoinvested in us through their
(57:29):
dreams, through their sacrifices, through their choices, and I'm
a product of, like, thecommunity that saw me kind of
grow up and going back.
And, as I've been talking topeople about their migration
journeys, no one should have toleave their home because they
don't have access to resourcesor they don't have what they
(57:52):
need within their own homes.
That choice should be made ifthey want to, and I want to be
able to provide the things thatpeople need if they want to
remain in their homelands.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Yeah, wow, that is a big dream, you know.
I think that is also a veryrealistic dream and you know,
I've seen and experienced injust the last less than a year
(58:29):
several people that I know and Iconnected that have done
something very similar to thatdream and are starting to do
that.
So I know it's a very possibledream.
I also know that you knowsomebody like yourself that has
been able to transform in manydifferent ways is probably the
(58:55):
best person to catalyze thistransformation for other people
and return home.
I pray that the conversationswith your father also help in
achieving this dream and thatthe community that loves you so
much is also called upon tocontribute to this dream with
(59:20):
you, shira.
Time to contribute to thisdream with you, shira.
I want to thank you so much forspending time and just want to
leave it up to you to close thisout, if there's anything that
you want people to know aboutthe Hope Wellness Center, about
your work, about anything thatyou feel called at this moment
to share with our listeners.
Speaker 2 (59:41):
Yeah, well, thank you for this.
Like I don't want to go.
Can we continue?
Bring me back.
This has been a greatconversation and I think this is
what happened.
This is what happens and whatwe can repeat and emulate in a
safe space.
We have really goodconversations about what matters
to one another, and Iappreciated you for kind of
(01:00:03):
setting the stage for me to beable to feel comfortable.
I think I shared some thingsthat I haven't really shared in
other spaces.
I really have appreciated whatyou have done in this space.
I grew up hearing la esperanzais the last thing that we lose,
(01:00:26):
that we should lose, and I thinkthat's so true.
But I think that what thatreminds me of is like the
sayings that our parents, ourgrandparents, our great-grand
grandparents, our aunts, ouruncles, like all the wisdom from
within our families, all thewisdom that is already within us
(01:00:49):
, all the strength that isalready within us, and I think,
as we close, I would love toinvite people to come back to
themselves, to come back totheir families, come back to
where their wisdom starts andlifting that up, because we have
that already.
You know, sometimes I thinksociety calls us to find
(01:01:12):
wellness in like products orthings or this or that, but
there's a lot that is within us.
So we need to be curious asreporters, as investigators,
about where does our strengthcome from and how do we lift it
up and share it with others.
So let's continue to have hopeand instill hope in one another.
(01:01:35):
One of my favorite quotes ishope is having oh God, I don't
want to butcher it, but hope ishaving light despite the
darkness.
It's by Dema Tutu and I'mtotally misstating it.
(01:01:58):
It's on my website, but it'ssomething that really grounds me
.
We should never lose hope.
Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Thank you so much.
We are not going to lose hopebecause we're dealing hope here.
So thank you so much, and Iwill definitely ask you to
return Everyone.
This is Cheryl.
I think you'll have to checkher out, and thank you for being
on.
Hope Diva.
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Your history books got it all wrong.
So I come to you with a song.
In 1810, con el gran grito depasión Se levantaron con razón
Black and brown fightingtogether,
Buenas familia, soy Jose, rico or Rico, if you know
me from the hood.
Thank you so much for yourattention today.
It means everything to me, andI want to welcome you to Hope
Dealer, which is a podcast aboutour journey towards hope,
resilience and joy through thestories that we carry about our
(00:25):
return home, and my intentionfor our time together is to
remind us that we carry powerfulmedicine within us that is our
guide to our transformation.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
I am so grateful to be able tointroduce you to incredible
(00:46):
people, incredible spirits thatwill share their journeys with
us.
(01:09):
Today was reminded of abeautiful sunrise, that this
transformation and this journeyis not something that we take on
our own.
It's something that we do inrelationship with everything the
elements, all living creaturesand all people on this earth.
And one of those people on thisearth that I'm so excited to
(01:30):
get to talk with us is CherylAguilita.
Cheryl is somebody who's goingto blow your socks away.
She is the founding director ofHope Center for Wellness out in
Washington DC, and she is oneof the leading advocates for the
overall wellness of our Latinocommunity, of our gente, through
(01:53):
the decolonization of therapyand social work, so I'm very
excited to have Cheryl speakwith us.
Cheryl, thank you so much forbeing with us.
Cheryl, thank you so much forbeing with us.
I want to welcome you to ourpodcast and would love for you
to do an introduction, a briefintroduction of yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, well, thank you , jose.
I'm delighted to be here.
Muchas muchas gracias.
And what an introduction.
No pressure there, like nopressure there.
I am really honored to be inthis space and I cannot say no
to anything that starts withhope.
So, hope Dealer I love the nameand we need more hope in this
(02:34):
world.
But what can I tell you aboutme?
Soy inmigrante, soy Hondureña.
I always kind of tell people Ihave the best of all worlds as
an immigrant, as a Honduran.
I grew up in New Jersey, I nowlive in Washington DC, and some
of the things that make me mostproud and fulfilled about what I
(02:57):
do and who I am are my roles.
Outside of what I do for work.
I love what I do as a socialworker, and that's one aspect of
myself.
But what I really love is beingan aunt, una tia.
I love, like my nephew, mynieces, being a daughter.
I'm a wife, I'm a friend, I'm alistener, I am someone that
(03:18):
people can count on, and thoseare my favorite things to be in
this world.
And then, when I'm not doingthat, I'm doing my passion work,
which is social work.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Love that and I want to get to know you a little bit.
Cheryl, you know, we met manyyears ago and as I've learned
more about you, you know, one ofthe things that always sparks
me when I get to know people isobviously we're going to talk
about your path to where you arenow, but I would love to know a
little bit about how yourjourney started.
(03:52):
You know, in the first episodeI talked about how my healing
journey started when I was youngand realizing it when I came
across the border into the US.
We'd love to know.
You know, now that you've hadsome time to reflect, now that
you are more conscious aboutyour healing journey, what can
(04:15):
you share about?
You know, a pivotal moment orsomething that now, when you
think back, is what put you onthis journey now.
It could be in your childhood,it could be through your
schooling.
We'd love for you to tell us alittle bit about a story, about
how you believe your journeystarted to where you are now.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Yeah, wow, thank you for that question.
You sound like my therapist.
I'm going to tell you a littlebit about what we're talking
therapy.
But you know, it's sointeresting.
One thing loved the city, lovedthe friends I was making, but I
was really depressed and I wasreally anxious and I didn't
(05:14):
quite understand it because Iwas like, oh, I have the job of
my life, like the job of mydreams, I'm in a great city, I'm
doing great work, and yet I wassad, profoundly sad, and
anxious.
And I remember going to atherapist and I was really young
, I didn't really know muchabout therapy, and on session
(05:35):
one she gave me interpretationsabout my life and as a therapist
, that's not what I do on thefirst day and I was like, no, no
, that doesn't resonate, that'snot true, that's not.
You know, that's not what mylife is about.
But she was, she was thereright now that I can kind of
reflect on what her reflectionswere.
That was my first connectionwith therapy and then my first
(05:57):
exposure to how, as a community,we feel about mental health.
Because I remember telling someof my friends, my Latino
friends, that I was going to atherapist and the reaction was
kind of like, well, you're sostrong, but, um, you, you can do
it, you're so capable.
And I had to really fight thosecomments because not only were
(06:19):
they stigmatizing, I was like,well, I'm still strong and I
need support right now.
You know, like it doesn't haveto be one or the other, it can
be both.
But something that I came tounderstand in my healing journey
is how some of the things thatI have been through in life are
(06:39):
the gifts that allowed me to beable to do what I work.
So when I I would say that myjourney towards healing began
when my mother had to make areally hard choice to migrate to
the United States, she migratedwith my older siblings, two of
my older sisters and my youngerbrothers, and I stayed in
(07:02):
Honduras with my dad and as achild, as a teenager, I had a
really rough time with thatseparation.
A few years later, our mothercourageously came and got us and
we were able to move to theUnited States with her and my
sisters, and I remember as ateenager, I was considered maybe
(07:25):
rebellious in how Idemonstrated how I was feeling.
You know, I think teens andchildren, we don't necessarily
have the vocabulary to share howwe feel and we show it in terms
of behaviors, and I think thatexperience wasn't really
understood.
I think I came to understandthat experience and how I might
have reacted later on in life asan adult, as a young adult,
(07:50):
when I started my healingjourney, just recognizing the
choices that I would make inrelationships or how sometimes
we seek external things to fillourselves up, and I didn't have
understanding of those voicesuntil I began my healing journey
.
But kind of fast forward totoday and maybe like years ago,
(08:15):
when I started my work in socialwork, I began to work with
families, immigrant familieslike myself who had experience
in reunification, and I began towork with the youth.
So the youth I have a soft spotfor children and youth and I
(08:35):
began to hear my story throughtheir stories and I was like, ah
, this seems familiar.
Ah, this seems familiar and Ibecame really biased towards
helping them out a lot more thanmaybe the parents, you know.
I didn't realize then that myown experience was a bias that
kind of impacted how I was doingmy work.
So it was like all about theyouth and also like family
(08:58):
therapy and helping parents andchildren come together in a
healthy way, providing parentslike psychoeducation about what
the children were experiencingand so on.
So that was my first exposureback to my own story, reflected
by some of my clients, fastforward to 2020.
(09:24):
Our practice, the Hope Centerfor Wellness.
We began to work with familieswho were ripped apart by Trump's
government and parents weredetained, children were sent to
shelters, separated for manymonths.
Some parents were deported.
I began to work with thefamilies, specifically with the
parents, and I began to tuneinto their experience as the
(09:48):
parents' experience in a waythat I don't think I had before.
And in my work with parents,part of the work was to teach
them about what the childrenwere experiencing and in a
support group that I had withparents, I realized that this
information really wasn'tworking.
(10:08):
Like you know, nothing I saidmade a difference in this group,
in a support group I had, andthat's when I began to
understand that we cannot askparents to help their kids if no
one has seen their pain andsupported them through their
pain, able to reconnect or maybesee parental experience in a
way I hadn't had access before.
(10:31):
And I began to really understand, like my mother's choices and
in a way that I might have notunderstood them before.
And it's like as a society, wehave so many expectations for
parents and yet are we askingthe right questions about what
do you need?
We cannot expect them todevelop and raise well, good
(10:52):
human beings if we're not givingthem what they need to be able
to do that.
So I say, you know, before Iused to say that I stumbled upon
this work by mistake, you know,having been in public relations
before and then I ended up inmental health, and then I see
that it was like my ownexperiences that led me to this
(11:13):
work and I am so grateful for,like, really hard things that I
endure in life, because it'swhat has given me the
opportunity to be able to dothis work and understand it in a
way that if I didn't have thatexperience I don't think I would
.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Wow, cheryl, there's a lot there and I got a couple
of follow-ups, but the first oneis I think you would agree with
me that everybody in publicrelations needs to mental health
work.
That's the first part, yes, yes,the second part is so.
(11:49):
What resonated with me with whatyou just mentioned, is that
both my parents came to Chicagofrom Mexico and left my brother
and I in Mexico City, and so wewere reunited with them after
(12:11):
two or three years in Chicago,and that's how my brother and I
crossed the border on our ownthrough Tijuana in the trunk of
a station wagon.
And so that separation that youspeak about, I know it very
well and I think that's probablya reason why we see each other
in the way we see each otherright, because for me, what that
(12:35):
has flourished, what the seedthat was planted, was my ability
to connect with people in a waythat's unusual with other folks
, right, and I think that'sprobably your gift also.
But going back to the lessonsthat you learned, I would love
to hear a little bit more aboutwhat's that you know.
(13:01):
You mentioned earlier that yousaw it from the perspective of
the children the separation, andthen, most recently, during the
pandemic and that horrificimmigration policy saw it from
the perspective of the parents.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
What did that change of perspective teach you and how
do you feel about that?
New learning or healing?
Am engaged in some research isthat when we talk about
immigration, we should also betalking about family separation.
Part of the immigrationexperience is leaving people
that we love behind physicallyand then reunited potentially
(13:59):
with other people, and I thinkthe story about separation is to
be the front and center of ourconversations what we hear from
(14:27):
others society, politics,environment, and how it's really
up to us to really undo some ofthe learning that no longer
serves us, you know.
I always say you know, as anadult, we have an opportunity to
unlearn things that no longerwork for us and relearn new
things, and I think something Ilearned is that we may not
listen enough to one another.
(14:48):
When I was able to set aside mypreconceived notions about the
family separation experience andmy own experience and really
listen to the pain of theparents, I was able to see a
story that I hadn't seen in away that I understand it now,
but I think that took first somehealing to be able to figure
out why do I feel this way andalso to listen in a way that I
(15:12):
hadn't.
And I think as a society wesometimes as you see this in
social media, you see thiseverywhere we're so pressed to
have the right answer, we're sopressed to want to have
solutions, we're so pressed tohave our point across that we
don't listen to one another inthe way that we should.
So I think that's what I hopefor the world is that we can
(15:33):
take the space and set asidewhat we're feeling to really try
to understand what the otherperson is thinking and feeling
as well.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
And why do you think this change occurred within you
in the recent example withparents?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, I think both.
I've been going to therapy fora very long time and I had to
face some really important truththat I hadn't been able to
uncover.
To uncover, I think, when wetalk about children and youth
and then these children andyouth become young adults and
(16:09):
adults.
Sometimes our pain, when ithasn't been witnessed or worked
through, is the only thing thatwe can see.
So it wasn't until I felt seenin my pain and was able to work
through that I could see someoneelse's pain in a way that I
could connect with.
So I think we as a society cando that to one another.
(16:33):
We can kind of mirror and tellpeople hey, like I'm sorry that
you're going through that.
That sounds really difficult,like some of our main needs as
people are to be seen, heard andunderstood and we need to be
able to figure out how to dothat to one another.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Wow, you're so right.
I mean and I think that that ispart of the reason why you know
, why you mentioned that justthe act of listening and being
able to put, not be able tolisten to people without putting
our biases and our assumptionsin the front or center of what
(17:10):
they're telling us, that soundsrelatively simple to do, but
where it's so difficult, if wedon't practice that, to be able
to do that right, that's such ait's, it's, uh, it's a practice
that takes intentionality, butalso something that's, um, that
you know, like you said, in inthe world we live in right now,
(17:31):
is so difficult to do.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Right and something you said that really kind of
resonates is how we, our worldand our healing is connected to
connections and relationships.
I think my own healing I'vebeen talking about my therapist
a lot, but he's not the onlysource of support that I have.
I think my friendships, mycolleagues, my like trusted
(17:58):
advisors, and my family andpeople that I can connect with
and talk about my story, who cankind of hold it with care I
think that has been an essentialpart of like my own healing and
what I see healing in others aswell, like my own healing and
what I see healing in others aswell.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, and actually that's why, frankly, the reason
I reached out to you, cheryl, Isaw recently, in the last six
months, your journey ofreturning home to Honduras and
then participating in the LatinoSocial Work Conference in
Oaxaca, and your sharing aboutyour own personal transformation
(18:47):
of going home and seeing moreindigenous or culturally
relevant or grounded practiceswithin the social work field.
You know, what you sharedreally just captivated me and
wanted to really learn or hearfrom you what you've learned and
(19:10):
what that means to you.
So I would love to see if youcould share a little bit about
both of those things.
I know they're very differentexperiences, but there is a
through line there.
I would love to hear you talkabout those two trips and what
those trips meant to you.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah well, thank you.
I agree, they're likeinterconnected in a way that I
didn't expect.
You know I call my Oaxaca tripa life-changing trip, but I'll
begin with my coming back toHonduras.
You know, since I had been inthe US, I have gone a few times
to Honduras and it took me avery long time, even though I
(19:48):
had the privilege to be able totravel back in a way that is
easier than most people, or somepeople are not able to travel
back.
It took me a very long time togo back and I think most of it
was out of fear.
You know, you hear reallynegative stories about what's
happening in Honduras theviolence, the sociopolitical
(20:10):
environment and so on and ittook me a very long time to go
back environment and so on, andit took me a very long time to
go back.
I was able to go back um 10years after having migrated I
was a young adult uh to visit myfather who had remained in
Honduras and and I reallyappreciated that trip and as a
kind of like the welcoming back,because after that I tried to
(20:32):
go as much as I could couldn'talways go as much as I wanted to
, but it really helped mereconnect back to a piece of me
that I felt was dormant.
You know, as an immigrant, as abi-cultural individual, I think
something that happens is thatwe come and we want to be like
(20:53):
others.
You know, we don't want to beperceived as different than we
may pass, and we adopt a newculture and sometimes we
unconsciously repress our ownculture.
So I think going back toHonduras was kind of a
reawakening, or the process ofreawakening and reconnection
with my own cultural, language,traditions and so on.
(21:14):
And so I have been going backto Honduras in the last, you
know, few decades and my fatherpassed away in 2020 due to COVID
, and that was really difficultand it was.
I had been working with themigrant community for a very
(21:35):
long time and helping clientswho were unable to go and be
with their loved ones duringtheir passing, and I remember
having that experience as welland think I couldn't go and be
with my father when he passedaway, and I remember every
single client that I have beenwith or supported through their
(21:58):
journey of grief and wonderingdid I do enough?
Did I understand that enough?
Because I now understood thepain of not being able to be
with your loved ones when youwant to and that you know grief,
it was very difficult in thebeginning and that you know
(22:18):
grief it was very difficult inthe beginning.
It's you know.
Grief is this like kind ofroller coaster.
If we have experienced it, youhave some good days, some bad
days.
I feel like I had enough energysometimes to like get up, be
with my clients and go back tobed and I spent some time like
that and then eventually I beganto kind of hear my dad's dichos
like in my head, like you gotto keep going, you know this
(22:42):
shall pass, and I began to kindof hear his voice in my head and
I began to go on walks.
I would go on very long walks.
Then I began to experiencebeing in spirit and community
with that, like when I heard,when I saw the trees, when I
felt the wind, and I just feltthat connection in a way that I
(23:04):
had never experienced being innature and connecting me to like
an ancestor or like a loved onewho's passed.
And that became part of how Idealt with grief and so my grief
has also been, you know, Ithink, those of us who
experienced grief in really deepways.
It also gives us a lot of giftsand I feel like I got to know
(23:28):
my dad a lot more through mygrief than sometimes when he was
alive, but my grief alsoallowed me to be able to
reconnect to culture.
I was a lot more curious abouthis experience, wanting to learn
what things that he had beenthrough, and that's something
that I encourage people to dowhile we have our loved ones
(23:50):
alive to ask questions.
We want to be able to passinformation from generation to
generation, and I became reallycurious about that experiences.
And then the idea of likelegacy came up in my mind how do
we continue the work that ourparents, our abuelas, abuelos,
(24:10):
our ancestors, have began, andwe are a product of all of their
experiences and all of theirwork.
So I think I began to thinkabout how do we honor our loved
ones with the work that theyhave done.
And then I went to Oaxaca.
So fast forward to earlier thisyear I had the opportunity to
go to Oaxaca.
(24:30):
I had a scholarship from theAmerican Psychological
Association to go, and it was awhole bunch of social workers
wanting to really learn whattraditional healing meant and
how we incorporate it into ourwork.
And I think what I learnedthere one of the many things
that I learned is that we reallythrive in connection, like I
(24:51):
think the theme that you'rebringing up is so true, like our
healing and their studies.
They kind of talk about that.
We don't have to like bring theresearch up, but it's proven
the more connections we have,the longer our lives could be
and the more fulfilled our livescould be as well.
And I was always very curiousabout, well, how.
I would ask people, how do youdeal with mental health?
(25:13):
And they're like, well, what isthat?
You know, of course they knowabout mental health, but they
don't experience it, they don'ttalk about it in the same way
that we do here.
I think one of the things Iexperienced about Oaxaca, it was
like there was a festival everysingle day I was there.
There was music, there was likea sense of like rejoicing and
maybe party is not the rightword but like celebrating, and
(25:42):
there was that spirit ofcelebration that I felt like is
part of the healing that mostpeople experience.
But also, you know, weconnected with local curanderas
and curanderos.
We learned about integratinglimpias into our work, into our
work, and what I kind of felt,coming back to the US, is that
we have our mental health storyabout Latinos in mental health
(26:02):
is short-sighted.
One of the narratives is thatLatinos don't come to therapy
enough because of the stigma,the negative stigma about
therapy, which is true.
That is part of the story thatwe need to recognize.
We need to break the stigma.
But another important part ofthe story is that they have
(26:23):
different ways of healing.
It's not just traditionaltherapy they may go to and it's
not just the church, which hasbeen part of the narrative.
They may go to a localcurandera.
They may really connect withthe neighbors and the community
members within their communities, and those are other forms of
healing that we need to honor.
And as I think about this work,I think for me and other social
workers and other therapistsand other healers is that it's
(26:46):
our responsibility to learnthose other ways and if we're
not competent in those otherways, it's our responsibility to
connect people to those otherways.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Wow, again, there's so much there.
First, my deepest condolencesfor your father, and not knowing
how it is to grieve your fatherduring a period where you
cannot be there with him musthave been terrible, and I'm
(27:19):
sorry that you had to experiencethat.
My father just passed away twomonths ago and I was fortunate
to be the home care provider forhim and grieve with him and set
up the ceremony for histransition for five months, and
(27:40):
so I was able to experience whatI wish you would have been able
to experience in a way thatallows.
I love what you said about youknow that the grieving that you
were able to allow to grievewith your father after he
(28:00):
transitioned through therelationships in nature and
others.
So I'm glad that you were ableto experience that, and I
couldn't agree with you moreabout how we are able to connect
our grief to legacy.
Wow, what an incredible way toposition grieving in our
(28:29):
community and within ourfamilies, and you know I myself
just did a curandero class atthe University of Mexico with
the hierbas and how that is sucha powerful way for us to use
(28:50):
the energy of you know again, ofthe medicines that are around
us to help us and to be able togo through the grieving process
and helping our family membersto go through that grieving
process.
So a wonderful, incredibleinsight.
(29:14):
Incredible insight.
I'm wondering, you know, as youwere talking about the different
practices that you learned inOaxaca, and you know I love your
reaction to their reaction ofwhat is mental health right?
(29:38):
Because it's.
You know, I started readingthis book, a Blackfoot family
therapist that uses theBlackfoot Indians cosmology of
(30:05):
self-actualization and communityactualization and her position
is there's no such thing asself-actualization.
People self-actualize incommunity.
Obviously we express it in ourindividual identity, but
self-actualization happens incommunity.
(30:29):
Could go a little bit deeper,like you know, after going to
Oaxaca and understanding more ofthe more comprehensive outlook
of mental wellness and communitywellness, how has that impacted
the way you're approaching yourwork back in DC?
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah, thank you.
That's a great question and mydeepest condolences to you as
well with your death passing.
Yeah, you know, I always Ireally appreciated this trip for
many reasons and I think,coming back to how I have
experienced my work, then, whenI was in Oaxaca, I learned about
(31:19):
healer Maria Sabina, who usedto use a very recognized figure
in Oaxaca and actually in theworld.
I did not know about her untilthen.
She's someone who usedmushrooms as part of like sacred
healing ceremonies and I hadthe opportunity to spend time
with her nephew, her grandson,one of her grandchildren, and I
(31:42):
think that, that, coming back tolegacy building, I was really
in awe of what he's doing in hiscommunity to carry out his, her
legacy.
He's doing in his community tocarry out his, her legacy and,
um, and coming back, I think howthat has changed my work is
that I am really more curiousnow to understand what the
(32:07):
communities I work with, whatthey understand, what they, how
they have experienced mentalhealth and how it's talked about
in their communities.
A lot more curious tounderstand how they have
survived up until now.
I think one thing that I alwayssay is that people have
survived the world in the waythey can before they come to my
(32:31):
office like, and I need to becurious about how they did that
because we're going to tap intotheir strength.
But I think now I have a lotmore curiosity about that how is
it that you deal with thisreally rough moment in life
within your community?
And I'm a lot more curious tounderstand how I can support
(32:51):
that and bring that into ourspace.
So, for instance, when a clienttalks about spirituality, we
may bring that in as part oftheir treatment goals or as part
of the interventions that weuse.
You know, if prayer issomething important for that
client, how do we build it intosomething they do?
So I think the way that I haveapplied it and continue to apply
(33:15):
it is one what I do in sessionsand how I ask questions.
I'm a lot more curious aboutreframing mental health.
I am learning listening abouthow we reframe mental health for
our clients and what healingmeans to them.
And healing may not mean likecoming to therapy for a very
(33:36):
long time.
It may be like I want to talkto someone, and right now I'm
talking to you, but then I wantto be able to talk to my hermana
or my hermana or my tia, thesame way that I'm talking to you
with courage, you know.
So being able to understandwhat can we do in this space
that is translatable outside ofthis space in a way that honors
(33:56):
your values and your culture.
You know, something that kindof came up for me and I don't
know if I'm going somewhere else, but I'm inspired by what you
said.
There's the theory that Irecently learned school
self-psychology, that when Ilearned about that theory it
(34:19):
really felt like home.
It talks about that, for ourwell-being and for us to form a
cohesive sense of self, or likestrong self-esteem, we are
dependent upon our environment,and initially our environment.
It's our caregivers, ourparents, and then that extends
(34:43):
outward to our teacherscommunity, the government and
everyone around us.
And then in this theory, thetheory looks at three major
needs that we have a human being, we all have a need of twinship
having other people that we canrelate to, that are like us,
that think like us, that we canfind sameness with.
So when it talks about the,when I think about the Latino
community and the immigrantcommunity, that's such an
(35:04):
important element of when we aresomewhere else to find other
people that sound like us, thatlook like us, that we can relate
to.
Another psychological need withthe need to be met within.
This theory is mirroring.
We all have the need to havepeople affirm who we are, our
strengths, our qualities, ourgoodness, and then we all have
the need to have strongidealizing figures or people
(35:28):
within our lives that we admire,whose strength and calmness and
sense of self we caninternalize.
And this begins at homesometimes and then it extends
outwards, and that's somethingthat I feel like we can all
strive towards providing.
We can all strive towardsproviding individually, as
(35:49):
families, as communities, asgovernment, as environment, as
communities as government asenvironment.
I don't want to get toopolitical, but one of the things
that we saw when families wereseparated by the Trump
administration is that they didnot have an idealizing figure, a
government that they felt wasprotecting them.
So in this instance, thegovernment unconsciously
(36:14):
symbolized an idealized figurethat totally failed these
families, who were separatedreally abruptly.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Wow, so yes, I do want to go there.
That's actually my nextquestion, cheryl.
So you've been.
We've been syncing up prettypretty well.
Just want to share the name ofthe book and the author that I
just started reading.
It's called TransformationBeyond Greed Native
(36:53):
Self-Actualization and it'swritten by Dr Sidney writes this
she introduced this indigenousself-assessment tool that
basically gives a different inyour field.
I forgot what they're called,but they're like different
(37:16):
spheres of how indigenous orcolonized you are in seven
different domains.
Right, and she does thatbecause, through her practice,
she wants to know where you arein these domains to be able to
customize a therapy session foryou.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
I love that.
I'm definitely going to readthat up.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, yeah.
And what it made me think thosethree elements that you
mentioned.
I would love to go a little bitdeeper into them, because you
know you are in DC and for me, Iwould be remiss by not asking
you this question from apsychological, therapeutic lens.
(38:03):
You know, right, we're we'restill recovering from a poly
crisis of the pandemic, theeconomy, the, you know, the
(38:26):
realization that we're in anoligarchy, not a democracy, like
all of these things, theseparations, the.
You know the, the threats of,you know, project 2025 and,
specifically, the specter,possibility of mass deportations
(38:46):
.
In DC, who have spoken to a lotof these families and you can't
get away from this environment,if you wanted to, specifically
because you're in the middle ofdowntown, right, how do you
understand this moment, again,from your perspective?
(39:08):
And I want to ask you how doyou understand this moment?
And then the second is like,what do you think we are called
to do to get out of this moment?
And I know those are two reallybig questions, but I would love
to just get your insights on.
(39:28):
You know, what is it that youthink this moment is about and
what is it that we are called todo?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yeah, Wow, Wow.
It's like the million dollarquestion right there.
You know it's interesting.
Someone recently asked me asimilar question.
Actually, one of my clientsreally wanted to know my
thoughts about how I feel aboutthis time.
Yeah, and I feel like thismoment is about multiple things
(40:02):
that we need to hold.
I think this moment for many andI would say the majority of us,
is about fear, pain, butthere's also this is also a
moment of opportunity and hope,and I think we can acknowledge
that it is terrifying to thinkwhat our world, what our country
(40:23):
and our world will look likewith an elected official.
That is not for us.
We can acknowledge that it'sfearful, that it's anxiety
provoking.
We can acknowledge that there'spain in how we have seen racism
(40:44):
rise from the shadows.
I mean, it's been there, butnow it's palpable.
Like now there's no filter fromanyone in sharing how they feel
about people of color, aboutour communities.
Like pain in acknowledging thatthe world that or the country
we might have felt we lived in,has these other aspects of
(41:07):
itself.
You know that we might have, Imight have thought that we're
not as prevalent anymore, butnow it's evident that it is as
prevalent as always been, butit's been hiding and now it's
been emboldened to show up inways where feelings are not
acknowledged.
I also think that there'sopportunity and hope, and I'm a
(41:30):
hopeful optimistic.
I could be a realist, but Ithink there's always hope in
which we had many others beforeus who have paved the way for
social justice, who have pavedthe way for healing, who have
paved the way for action, andwhat we have seen time after
time is that when communitiesband together, we not only heal
(41:52):
together but we can overcometogether.
So for me, that's the hope justto see the momentum, the new
momentum, rise with, you know,with Kamala Harris, with
candidate Kamala Harris.
We're seeing that momentumhappen.
We're seeing people cometogether and I think that's my
hope that we realize that thismoment is about coming together,
(42:14):
continuing our hope, instillinghope in others and moving each
other towards action, inwhichever way that looks like.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, thank you, and you know, one of the things what
sparked this question in me isyour response about you know
what you hope to do is inspirepeople to talk with others about
what they're feeling and whatthey want to do, with courage,
(42:44):
with my role, right, and I thinkthe way I see this moment is
everything that you said andthis is an opportunity or this.
The calling right now, Ibelieve, particularly in our
community, is to speak withcourage.
And you know, call out the fearand the demagogy.
(43:12):
I'll say that word.
You know, call out the fear,call out the divisiveness.
Calling out and back to yourpoint is to be able to
articulate a future and amulticultural nation and society
(43:37):
where we all fit in and whereour community and others will
never be again used as ascapegoat for issues that are
actually not caused by us, butwe have been harmed by the
issues of the inequality in ourcountry.
(43:59):
You know you have the rightwing trying to say that
immigrants are the cause of thatinequality and we know that we
are the ones that are harmed themost because of that inequality
.
So, given what you believe, youknow what you just said is, in
(44:20):
terms of what we are called todo.
What do you think your role isin helping people coming
together and being able tofollow the footsteps and
continue the legacy of thosecivil rights leaders that have
preceded us, those civil rightsleaders that have preceded us?
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah, thank you, and I agree.
I really appreciate hearingyour perspective about the Kersh
, because I think it'sabsolutely.
This is a time to be courageousin whatever it is that we, in
every aspect of our life, butwhen it comes to politics as
well, and when it comes toowning our truth and be able to
defend our truth of who we are,you know, being courageous to
(45:05):
show up as authentic as we are,because that's the beauty of our
community, like who we are, thediversity within and what makes
us us.
My role wow, that's.
Thank you for that, you know.
My role is, I think, to continueto create and provide a safe
(45:27):
space for people to connect totheir strength and their courage
so they can go on and do out inthe world what they set out to
do, but also to create spacesthat are collective spaces and
we're doing that in differentforms collective spaces so we
can know that we're not alone.
(45:48):
I think, you know, when it comesto twinship, when it comes to
mirroring, now more than ever weneed those spaces where we can
affirm with one another like wegot this, you know, like we got
this as a community, and createthose spaces when we find
connections in times where wefeel isolated and where we may
(46:09):
feel like there's no more hope.
I think there's healing incommunity and collectiveness,
but it doesn't stop there.
I think, for me, we have to getpeople to vote.
We have to you vote, gettingout the vote becoming
(46:45):
naturalized when we're able topushing and advocating for the
rights for all immigrants andthe rights of all marginalized
communities.
And I think that as providers,but also as community members,
we need to really be thinkingabout voting right now for those
, for all of us in our community, to get active in some way or
(47:07):
another in our political process.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yes, yes, I'm a firm believer that healing, part of
the healing process, is action.
Right, it's not just, you know,talking about it and having
conversations.
There has to be some action forthe healing.
So I agree with you there.
(47:33):
And also, you know, I love theway that you know you see your
role as providing spaces forconnection and for mirroring.
I think we should make someshirts like that show that this
(47:53):
is part of the necessary work inour community.
I don't know if it's shirts orif it's a deck of cards or
something.
Something yes, right, that's thework.
Right, that is the work for usand as somebody I mean as
somebody that shares yourpractice of creating spaces and
(48:18):
being a circle keeper myself tobe able to make that happen.
You know, I also know howfulfilling, but also how energy,
how much energy that takes forus to be able to hold space and
be able to.
You know, because when you holdspace for people and you create
(48:41):
this container, you'reconstantly creating a kind of a
force field where people feelsafe within your force field and
you are entrusted by people tocome into this space where they
will be protected, where they'renot going to be judged, where
you are able to be courageousand honest with the mirroring.
(49:03):
And that takes energy, thattakes practice, that takes work
on your part.
So the next couple of questionsI want to ask you is how do you
practice?
I mean this way of sustainingyourself.
You know, I love the fact thatyou have the center of hope and
(49:27):
wellness.
How do you feed that hope?
What are the practices thathelp you maintain that positive
energy and allows you to createthose spaces with people you
work with?
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah, one thing is I surround myself with amazing
individuals like you, you know,that fill my spirit.
That's definitely on the top ofmy list.
You know, I am really gratefulfor having a spiritual practice.
I think, first and foremost,I'm able to do this work through
my belief that there's a higherbeing, in my case God, that
(50:14):
helps me fulfill his vision formy work.
So I'm not necessarily workingbased on what I want to do in
the world, but more like I feellike I'm guided by what he calls
me to do.
That's a very sacred connectionfor me in how I wake up in the
morning.
And, well, the first thing I dois like every breath.
(50:34):
I just, I'm just so grateful tolike be able to like feel my
breath every morning Like I'malive.
What a gift, what a gift thatis, you know, um.
So I begin my morning kind oflike my healing routine or kind
of my staying essential routine,um, but like taking a few deep
breaths in the morning when Iwake up, just really feeling my
(50:57):
body like in my bed, really kindof feeling myself like with a
body scan.
I, you know there's times whereI'm not always good at that.
I have to always come back tolike my practices, because we're
not always perfect at thethings that we asked other
people to do.
You know, I'm the first onewhere like, oh, I'm telling
(51:17):
clients to do this, I'm notdoing it, I have to hold myself
accountable.
But but lately I created thispractice where you, oh, I'm
telling clients to do this, I'mnot doing it, I have to hold
myself accountable.
But lately I created thispractice where, you know, I get
up in the morning and do mybreathing, I may read a Bible
verse, and then I've been verydeliberate about not starting
work without creating a spacefor me, because I'm outpouring
(51:39):
so much and I'm like I cannotoutpour if I'm not filled from
within.
So I created this practice thatthe first thing I do every
morning is just go on a walk,and there's connection in that
because I get to share thisspace with one of my sisters and
my mom.
We all walk together fromdifferent places by phone and
we're like chismeando andtalking and like walking and
(52:02):
sharing, you know.
So it's a very special space.
You know, outside of that, um,you know, I have my own healing
space in in my therapy.
I, I, I think that's a veryspecial place.
This is the first time that Iever have therapy in Spanish.
Um so it's, it's been like atransformative experience.
(52:22):
You too, I'm like to say likeyou know, I don't want to be
like too, too.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Too grosera.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Too grosera aquí, but like to say, like one of our
big emotions, in Spanish, itfeels really good.
You know it feels really good.
You know it feels really good.
So you know, that's aprotective space that I don't
miss, like, that's just like myaccountability space, because if
I want to do this work, I alsohave to maintain some sort of
like well, maintain my mentalhealth very intact.
(52:58):
And then I well, I love to.
I well, I love to rest.
I love to rest, like I havelearned to listen to my body for
when it needs rest.
Um, I think I was sharing withyou the story when we talked
that I, um had called my bankand they had asked me what my
favorite hobby was, because thatwas a security question and I
(53:19):
was like god, what did I tellthem?
And I couldn't remember exactlywhat I had told them and I was
like sleeping.
And they're like yes, that'sthe answer because I love to nap
.
I love I think that's somethingI adopted from, like Honduras.
You know we used to have a napculture.
It's less like that now.
But well, my body's tired, likeI take a break.
(53:40):
You know, that's just as simpleas like that, you know, and
then I do a lot of things whenI'm not working to kind of feel
my spirits and my mind and myheart.
You know I love watching comedy,like anything that has to do
with like making me laugh.
You know I have to be in acertain mood to watch certain
(54:00):
type of TV.
So, like sometimes my husbandis like, do you want to watch
this movie?
And I'm like, does it haveviolence, Does it have this,
does it have that?
And I'm like, no, not today.
Today is not the day I love toread.
I love to read, I can, but I dohave a bad habit of buying the
next book before finishing thelast.
So I have a lot of books that Ihave to, that I started reading
(54:22):
and I still have to finish.
I love to read and, yeah, thoseare kind of like my grounding
spaces and even though it's beena little harder now that I am
pursuing a PhD, I do try tocreate some time for my
relationships, you know, for myfriendships, for my one on ones,
(54:45):
for my time with my family.
It may not be as much time as Iused to have with them before,
but I try to make it quality.
So when I'm, even if I'm withsomeone for like an hour, like I
try to be fully present in thatmoment, you know.
So that's a little bit abouthow I fill my cup.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
Those are wonderful practices and rituals and
connections, a verycomprehensive way of looking at
the work that you do.
Conversation today about that.
You're a very hopeful person,that you find hope in this
moment.
I know you're also working onyour PhD and you're starting to
(56:06):
plant this moment with the hopethat it will blossom two years
from now, five years from now,10 years from now that you know
you kind of see as your freedomdream of sorts that you know is
connected to what you weretalking about your legacy.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
Hmm, you know, you kind of like brought a little
bit of a tear to my eye.
That is connected to what youwere talking about, your legacy.
You kind of like brought alittle bit of a tear to my eye
because this feels really bigbut also really important.
So I'm working to be reallycourageous, to lean in into that
dream and kind of quiet downfear of the overwhelm.
So part of my dream is tosomeday go back to Honduras and
(56:46):
be able to create healingopportunities or services or
anything that community may needin that area of
entrepreneurship being able tohelp people women specifically,
with entrepreneurship skills,helping youth with education,
(57:06):
well-being, and so a long-termdream of mine is to be able to
go back to the community thatkind of raised me up until I was
14 or 13 and be able to giveback.
I feel like I'm a product of thelove of my parents.
I'm a product of people whoinvested in us through their
(57:29):
dreams, through their sacrifices, through their choices, and I'm
a product of, like, thecommunity that saw me kind of
grow up and going back.
And, as I've been talking topeople about their migration
journeys, no one should have toleave their home because they
don't have access to resourcesor they don't have what they
(57:52):
need within their own homes.
That choice should be made ifthey want to, and I want to be
able to provide the things thatpeople need if they want to
remain in their homelands.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Yeah, wow, that is a big dream, you know.
I think that is also a veryrealistic dream and you know,
I've seen and experienced injust the last less than a year
(58:29):
several people that I know and Iconnected that have done
something very similar to thatdream and are starting to do
that.
So I know it's a very possibledream.
I also know that you knowsomebody like yourself that has
been able to transform in manydifferent ways is probably the
(58:55):
best person to catalyze thistransformation for other people
and return home.
I pray that the conversationswith your father also help in
achieving this dream and thatthe community that loves you so
much is also called upon tocontribute to this dream with
(59:20):
you, shira.
Time to contribute to thisdream with you, shira.
I want to thank you so much forspending time and just want to
leave it up to you to close thisout, if there's anything that
you want people to know aboutthe Hope Wellness Center, about
your work, about anything thatyou feel called at this moment
to share with our listeners.
Speaker 2 (59:41):
Yeah, well, thank you for this.
Like I don't want to go.
Can we continue?
Bring me back.
This has been a greatconversation and I think this is
what happened.
This is what happens and whatwe can repeat and emulate in a
safe space.
We have really goodconversations about what matters
to one another, and Iappreciated you for kind of
(01:00:03):
setting the stage for me to beable to feel comfortable.
I think I shared some thingsthat I haven't really shared in
other spaces.
I really have appreciated whatyou have done in this space.
I grew up hearing la esperanzais the last thing that we lose,
(01:00:26):
that we should lose, and I thinkthat's so true.
But I think that what thatreminds me of is like the
sayings that our parents, ourgrandparents, our great-grand
grandparents, our aunts, ouruncles, like all the wisdom from
within our families, all thewisdom that is already within us
(01:00:49):
, all the strength that isalready within us, and I think,
as we close, I would love toinvite people to come back to
themselves, to come back totheir families, come back to
where their wisdom starts andlifting that up, because we have
that already.
You know, sometimes I thinksociety calls us to find
(01:01:12):
wellness in like products orthings or this or that, but
there's a lot that is within us.
So we need to be curious asreporters, as investigators,
about where does our strengthcome from and how do we lift it
up and share it with others.
So let's continue to have hopeand instill hope in one another.
(01:01:35):
One of my favorite quotes ishope is having oh God, I don't
want to butcher it, but hope ishaving light despite the
darkness.
It's by Dema Tutu and I'mtotally misstating it.
(01:01:58):
It's on my website, but it'ssomething that really grounds me
.
We should never lose hope.
Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Thank you so much.
We are not going to lose hopebecause we're dealing hope here.
So thank you so much, and Iwill definitely ask you to
return Everyone.
This is Cheryl.
I think you'll have to checkher out, and thank you for being
on.
Hope Diva.
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Your history books got it all wrong.
So I come to you with a song.
In 1810, con el gran grito depasión Se levantaron con razón
Black and brown fightingtogether,
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