October 10, 2023 • 44 mins
What if the theatre had the power to not only entertain, but to also enact change on societal norms ? Welcome to a riveting conversation with Lillian Isabella, a remarkable Cuban-American playwright, actor, and the first playwright with the rare disorder Phenylketonuria (PKU). Our dialogue explores Lillian's latest play, Primordial, a documentary theater piece on the topic of pregnancy and childbirth. We delve into her creative process, the inspiration behind her work, and how theatre can be used as a mechanism to instigate meaningful change.
As we journey through the narrative of Primordial, we unmask societal norms around childbirth and the marginalization of certain bodies and experiences. This eye-opening conversation covers the significance of initiating dialogues around birth, empathizing with diverse birthing experiences, and acknowledging the individuals who bring life into this world. While discussing Lillian's contributions, we also tackle the overarching theme of the resilience of individuals whom she interviewed.
This episode is a thoughtful and insightful exploration of theatre, society, and the power of birth that is sure to leave you with a great deal to ponder.
TW: Talks of miscarriage and stillbirth.
Lillian Isabella is a Cuban-American playwright and actor. She is the first known playwright with the rare disorder Phenylketonuria (PKU). Her plays have been produced and developed in NYC at The Tank, Cherry Lane Theatre, Metropolitan Playhouse, NYC Fringe Fest, Nuyorican Poets Cafe, and the United Nations. She grew up in The Bronx, NY and has a BFA in Theatre from NYU, Tisch School of the Arts.
Lillian's plays include, PRIMORDIAL, THAT'S HOW ANGELS ARRANGED, HOW WE LOVE/F*CK (Finalist, Screencraft Film Fund) and CONVO-GENEOLOGY. Lillian is a member of the Dramatists Guild.
Lillian has acted in numerous independent films and NYC Theatre productions and is a proud member of the acting unions: SAG-AFTRA and AEA. More at lillianisabella.com
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Disclaimer: The views reflected by any of the guests may not reflect the views of the podcast host. Some topics may be difficult for some viewers, so proceed at your own risk. This podcast does not replace psychotherapy or advice and is for entertainment purposes only.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina McKelvy (00:00):
Welcome to Obology.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie.
Today we speak with LillianIsabella.
Lillian is a Cuban-Americanplaywright and actor.
She's also the first knownplaywright with the rare
disorder Fennecadenaria, alsoknown as PKU.
I talked to Lillian about hernewest play, primordial.
This play premieres in Februaryat the Tank in New York City.
I encourage you to go check itout if you're in the city.
(00:21):
This play is a documentary playbased on her diverse interviews
of birthing persons.
We explored the ongoing themesof hope and resilience that
someone who gives birthexperiences, but we also talked
about the impact that theatercan have to enact change.
You're not going to want tomiss this interview.
We're going to be right back.
Welcome to Obology stories ofhope, healing and resilience.
(01:04):
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie.
Today we're going to bespeaking with Lillian Isabella.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well, thank you forhaving me.
So how are you doing today?
Lillian Isabella (01:15):
I'm doing well .
I'm doing well here in New YorkCity.
It's a beautiful night.
Christina McKelvy (01:21):
I know I'm across the country from you and
it's not night yet, but thatsounds nice.
It sounds lovely.
It's a dream for me to get outto New York one of these days.
I was close.
I've been all the way up toMaryland North Maryland so
that's the furthest east.
Yeah, so I follow you onInstagram and I know your
(01:44):
boyfriend, Rob.
I interviewed him for a podcasta few episodes ago for his
movie, and he mentioned that youhave a play that you're
promoting or you're creating.
You're the playwright.
Tell me a little bit about thatplay.
Lillian Isabella (01:57):
Yeah, absolutely yeah, and I heard
very good things from Rob, soI'm excited to chat with you.
Thank you.
The play is called Primordialand it's a verbatim documentary
theater play.
So do you know?
Christina McKelvy (02:12):
what documentary theater is.
I have no idea and I feel likeI'm going to this can be my new
obsession, after you explainwhat it is, because they look
documentaries.
Lillian Isabella (02:25):
It's like a niche genre of theater, so not a
lot of people know what it is,but it is basically documentary
based theater.
So there's a few differentforms that it can take.
The one that I practice isverbatim, meaning I interview
people and then I transcribetheir interviews and then I
(02:47):
weave those that text into atheatrical experience.
So all of the words in the playare from the people I
interviewed and then I just sortof creatively arranged them
while honoring the message, andI don't change the order or
change what they were intendingto say, but I just put them in
conversation with each other.
So Primordial specifically isabout pregnancy and childbirth.
(03:09):
So I interviewed many, many,many people about their
experiences with pregnancy andchildbirth and then I turned
over a thousand pages oftranscription from my interviews
with them into a 50 page playwhich runs about an hour and 15
minutes or so.
Christina McKelvy (03:25):
Cool An hour and 15 minutes.
So these are interviews thatyou conducted with individuals,
again about the theme ofpregnancy and childbirth, and
transcribe that.
And now it's a play, so youknow two people talking or
acting it out.
Tell me more about that process, because it sounds like it
would be long.
Lillian Isabella (03:42):
Yeah, I've been working on the play for
four years now.
For me personally, it's thelongest I've ever worked on
anything in my life, and so,yeah, it's been a long process
and the way that I envision it,it's going to be going up at the
tank in New York City inFebruary 2024.
So February 1st to February25th at the tank and it's going
(04:04):
to.
The plan is for there to befive actors and there's 30
characters that are representedin the play, so each actor is
going to play like five to sevendifferent people throughout the
course of the play.
Christina McKelvy (04:18):
Okay, okay.
So, and is the?
Is the tank theater is modeledoff as like a community theater,
or is it?
How's that set up?
Lillian Isabella (04:26):
Yeah, the tank is an off off Broadway space,
so a lot of people don't knowthe difference.
I learned it.
I went to NYU Tisch School ofthe Arts and I majored in acting
and that was where I learnedthe difference between Broadway
off off Broadway.
So the difference is literallythe number of seats.
So the, the theater space thatwe're going to be in, has 98
(04:48):
seats in it, and and and offBroadway is 99 seats or above to
a certain point.
So we are away from offBroadway and there's a lot of
reasons to do that, one of whichis like budgetary.
So the kind of contracts thatyou would do with actors is
(05:08):
different if you're in like anoff off Broadway or an off
Broadway house and there's a lotof different rules and things
that go along with the differenttypes of houses and the
contracts that happen.
But it's an amazing locations36th Street and 8th Avenue, so
it's just like a few blocks awayfrom Times Square and it's very
much in the theater district inthe theater world.
(05:30):
So, it's going to be and thetank itself produces.
So, like so many artists andprojects come through the tank
every year, like thousands ofartists, and they have a certain
small, limited number of coreproductions, so things that they
co produce, and this play istheir, one of their first for
(05:52):
the new year, and so it's veryexciting to have that drive and
that support and to be acceptedin that way as a co production
is like a really big deal andI'm so thrilled, I'm so excited
that that's happening.
Christina McKelvy (06:05):
I'm excited for you.
That's a big deal going from,and is this your first play that
you've written.
Lillian Isabella (06:11):
My second.
So it's my second full lengthplay.
So my first one, and itincludes a curse word, I'm not
sure if I can you, can it?
Christina McKelvy (06:21):
there's no rating.
Lillian Isabella (06:24):
So my first place called how we love slash
fuck.
Okay, it went up at Cherry LaneTheater in 2019.
So right before the pandemic,the fall of 2019.
And it was also documentarytheater, interviewed many, many
different people about theirwomen, about their experiences
with sexuality and intimacy, andthen I turned that into a play,
and so that was my first onethat went up, and then this is
(06:48):
the second full length one, andhow?
Christina McKelvy (06:51):
so you said, documentary theater is very
niche and so it's not.
There's not a lot out there.
What would I get from going tomaybe specifically Primordial
but a documentary type theaterversus a documentary on TV or a
movie?
Lillian Isabella (07:09):
Yeah, well, I'll point to one of my absolute
favorite documentary theaterartists.
You may have heard of her.
Her name is Anna DeVier Smith.
She is a complete badass andwhat she does is she focuses and
this is a lot of documentarytheater focuses on topics that
(07:29):
are kind of rubbing up againstthe grain of what is normal in
society, government and culture.
So it's often challenging norms.
It's often centering thecivilian or the person who is
living within the society andkind of highlighting and
amplifying their voice andquestioning why the status quo
(07:53):
is the status quo.
So Anna DeVier Smith, her styleis very much she does verbatim
theater, where she uses theirwords and plays.
She also acts as them, whichI've done in the past.
But in this new play,primordial, I'm not doing that
because I wanted to just be theplaywright and just kind of
experience it as the playwrightonly, not also a performer.
(08:14):
But Anna DeVier Smith willembody her characters and then
she'll expose kind of patternsor assumptions or like the way
things have been structurallyset up, that and invite
questions.
So documentary theater, youasked like how is it different
than watching a documentary film?
I think one of the biggest waysit's different is that you have
(08:37):
bodies in space bringing thesestories to life and you're
listening to real people'sexperiences.
So there's an element of trustthat comes into play, that you
believe that the documentarian,the documentary theater maker,
has done justice by the peoplethat they've interviewed and is
accurately representing whatthey were intending to say.
(08:59):
And I think that's the claritybetween documentary film and
documentary theater.
But there's less this is aninteresting thing for me to say.
I almost feel like there's lessartifice maybe with theater
than there is with film, becausewith documentary film you can
kind of like shape narratives orit's a complicated question
(09:20):
what you've asked.
It's a complicated question, butI think there's something about
theater where you're in thespace together and you're
feeling like there's otherbodies, they're channeling these
stories and you're kind ofwitnessing it firsthand, even
though it's not firsthand, it'slike secondhand, but it's still.
(09:41):
There's some magic in having abody share a story.
And to there's something else.
That's a really cool thing andI can't remember exactly who
said it, but it's a very famoustheater essayist, theater person
, and he says that when we go tothe theater and we're watching
something in the theater, theaudience's heartbeat sink, so
(10:04):
your heart is at the same timewhen you're watching something
in the theater, and I think thatthat's a very magical,
beautiful thing.
Christina McKelvy (10:11):
So your heartbeat is sinking together,
it's that you're all connectedand you're witnessing, like I
said, this actor in the spacetelling this story.
That is real, and so I'm, youknow, depending on how well the
actor acts that emotion thatplays into it, and then the
audience is also feeling thatemotion, that empathy that's
(10:34):
coming from the actor and it'sjust like real stories.
Lillian Isabella (10:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And there's something abouttheater, I think, where you
can't look away, like whenyou're watching a movie, or
especially if you're watching itat home, right, like in this
movie theater, it's a littledifferent, but you can go to
your phone or you can hit pauseor you can walk away, and
(10:58):
there's something about whenyou're in the theater space, you
just you really are being askedto put aside an hour and 15
minutes of your time, say, towitness this story and to be
present with a group of peoplewitnessing the story and you
feel their immediate reactionsand you feel the energy of the
performer and there's like atransmission that happens that
is more visceral, I think.
Christina McKelvy (11:18):
Yeah, it's making me excited, like go down
to my local playhouse.
Lillian Isabella (11:25):
Or local theater.
Christina McKelvy (11:27):
Yes, I definitely want to.
I saw a really lovely play,jane Eyre at the Yavapai College
in Prescott you say Prescotthere, not Prescott, and it was
just.
It was magnificent and you'reright, you know, there was that
energy and then when the personwas singing, you just felt that
emotion Cause you were therethat the screen is gone.
Lillian Isabella (11:50):
I love that the screen is gone.
That's such a beautiful way toput it.
Yeah, I am my choreographer, sowe have a choreographer and a
director and we just had ourfirst creative meeting for the
play this past Monday.
So we're starting to throwaround ideas and getting ready
(12:10):
to put out a casting notice foractors.
That's very much the phase ofthe production that we're in.
Okay, and the choreographer saidto me she was reading a certain
scene in the play when everyonewas, all the characters were
getting ready to go into labor,and she said she started to feel
anxious and she was like whoa,I don't know, I don't know if I
(12:31):
can do this, I don't know if Ican, like you know, be involved
with this play because this isreally intense.
And then she said she made itthrough that scene to the next
moment and she was like, oh no,I absolutely, you know.
Like that she realized thefeeling, cause she's been
pregnant and given birth.
So has my director, mydirector's been pregnant and
given birth?
I've never been pregnant andI've never given birth, so I'm
approaching it very much fromthe lens of somebody who's
(12:51):
investigating, who hasn't hadthat experience, so I also don't
have like a predisposed senseof what it should be or could be
or was, because I'd have neverexperienced it.
But my choreographer said sherealized what was happening to
her when she was reading.
That was, she was having thememory, like she was having that
physical memory and thatfeeling of the panic and the
like, the, the sensation you getwhen you're about to go into
(13:13):
labor and start pushing.
It's very heightened, it's veryamped.
And then she was like that is abeautiful thing for an audience
to all collectively feeltogether is this sense of?
Oh my God, it's about to start,you know.
Christina McKelvy (13:26):
Inticipatory anxiety altogether.
Lillian Isabella (13:29):
Yes, exactly Like, and to the reason that I
created this play is because Iwanted to.
It's kind of like a love letterto my mom and you know she told
my, my sister and I our birthstories, how we came to be quite
a bit from the time when wewere like young, you know.
And so when you go out in theworld, nobody talks about birth
(13:49):
Like you don't talk about theexperience of being pregnant or
being born.
It's like a secret or it'ssomething you don't.
A lot of the people I talked tosaid that they didn't feel like
anyone wanted to talk to themabout their experience at all.
Nobody asked them questions andthey felt really frustrated
because they'd gone through thiscompletely life-changing
experience.
Christina McKelvy (14:07):
And then crickets.
Lillian Isabella (14:08):
like nobody acknowledged that it happened,
that it was epic, nothing, theydidn't ask them questions.
So my goal with this play is toliterally put birthing stories
center stage.
So ask us to listen and to talkabout it and to feel and to
acknowledge and to witness thislike freaking, transformative
event that is happening all thetime.
(14:29):
Many people are born everysingle year.
Christina McKelvy (14:34):
No way, really.
What is it?
I wonder if it's because womenare giving birth.
I wonder if that's why.
Lillian Isabella (14:48):
Yeah, so a lot of you know a lot of things
that affect the female body.
We've all talked about a lotand not prioritized and not
centered.
And I also, you know, throughthis play I also spoke with a
trans man and a non-binaryperson.
Both came together as well.
It's this sense of likemarginalized bodies.
(15:08):
It happens to people who havemarginalized bodies and
marginalized experiences, and Idon't understand completely why
it's marginalized when, likehalf the population, gives birth
, it's not a marginal thing.
And every single person on theplanet, the one thing we have in
common is that we were born.
Christina McKelvy (15:29):
Yeah.
Lillian Isabella (15:30):
Like it's so obvious to me, Like we all were
born.
It is why the heck is it notthe center of how we structure
society?
Or like try and understandsociety.
It's like magical, it's how weall came to be.
You know what?
Christina McKelvy (15:45):
would that look like if we were to, you
know, focus on being born,because, you're right, it's
marginalized bodies are.
It's pushed to the side andthose with female reproductive
organs that can give birth orbirthed people are pushed to the
side.
But it's something that we'reall like.
(16:05):
You said, we're all born, everysingle one.
I don't know one person notborn Possible?
Yeah, maybe I mean.
And so what's society look likeif we were to be like oh, this
is kind of important, we need astructure society around this
very, very important thing.
Lillian Isabella (16:24):
Yeah, I mean I .
So I always say I'm not anexpert in this area, like I'm
not a dual, not a midwife, I'mnot, I'm not a politician, I'm
not any of these things.
And so I'm a playwright and I'mcreating this and trying to
explore, like, what would itlook like, creatively right, if
we were to center this and totalk about it?
I think it would be humbling, Ithink it would be encouraging
(16:47):
of conversation and like withyou know.
One early feedback I got fromstaged readings of the play is
that people immediately wantedto call their mom, like after
they saw the play, and just saylike thank you, and just say I
love you.
I think we'd have moreappreciation and honoring of the
people who give birth to us,whether they are our mom or they
(17:08):
don't.
They don't, they don't identifyas our mom, but just you know
the people who are with us, andI think it would be a society
that was more respectful, thatwas more caring you know like we
would have maternal, we wouldhave like better pregnancy leave
, like for people after they'vegiven birth.
(17:30):
We wouldn't expect them tobounce back right away, because
we would have an understandingof the trauma that can be the
experience of birth and, likereally acknowledged, we pretend,
I think that birth is somethinglike I don't know what.
What do we pretend birth islike?
Just like something like I didmy taxes, I gave birth today.
I mean like what it's such adifferent thing it's like, and I
(17:53):
think if we knew that and wetalked about it, we would honor
birthing bodies more and wewould treat people with more
respect and also maybe we wouldlove each other more.
I don't know, is this too wishy, wishy, washy, but like we
would care, we all you knowthat's such a precious act and
we were all part of it.
Christina McKelvy (18:13):
Yeah, we're all like you said.
Everyone has been born and Ithink it would also give great.
It seems like this play wouldgive great perspective for those
of the excited on childreneither I've never given birth,
you know what it's like and helpwith the empathy building 100%,
yeah, 100%.
Lillian Isabella (18:32):
And I think this play it's going to need to
come with a big trigger warning,because there are a lot and
there's a trigger warning on thepodcast episode too but there's
just so much that can happenalso that's disturbing or
traumatic, and there's also somuch joy and delight.
(18:52):
That can happen too.
But there are a lot ofexperiences that we cast
judgment on or that we try andmake political policies on that
we're not attempting tounderstand from a personal place
or from an empathetic place.
And so, to your point, I thinkif we just allow people to talk
about it and we just listen andwe take it as their personal
story rather than like apolitical statement that they're
trying to make, that it willopen the door for, like,
(19:14):
increased understanding andcompassion in the way that we
govern and the way that we liketalk to each other and about
each other.
Christina McKelvy (19:23):
Yeah, you mentioned that this story was a
love letter to your mom.
Tell me more about, like, thatconnection you know with, maybe,
your own story of being born,or you know how it affected or
impacted you?
You know to re-understand yourstory.
Lillian Isabella (19:41):
Yeah, so my mom's story is in my play.
I interviewed her and she's oneof the 30-something people
whose stories are there.
I interviewed way more than 30people, but I just got 30
stories in there.
How many people did youinterview?
I interviewed like about 50people.
Christina McKelvy (19:58):
Wow, that is awesome.
Yeah, that is so cool.
I'm just like really enthralledwith this type of play.
That's so cool.
So you interviewed your mom.
Lillian Isabella (20:08):
I interviewed my mom and her stories in there,
and you know, one of the thingsthat affected her story deeply
was she enjoyed being pregnantvery much.
She didn't have healthinsurance and she was poor.
At the time she was working ata laboratory as a scientist, so
she was getting her PhD ingenetics and she didn't have.
(20:28):
They barely pay you anything asa scientist.
When you're in training it'slike a piton.
And so she didn't have a lot ofmoney and she didn't have a
doctor.
She went to a health clinic,which is like a clinic for poor
people to help them out, andthen when she was in labor she
came into the hospital asessentially like someone off the
(20:50):
street, Like she didn't have aconnection to anyone in the
hospital.
She didn't have a preset doctoror anything like that.
So it was hard for her tonavigate.
You know, when she neededpainkillers or when she needed
extra support, they refused tohelp her.
They refused to pay inmedication because she didn't
have health insurance and so shewouldn't be able to pay for it,
(21:12):
and so it was an antagonisticrelationship in that way, and
you know, for her it was like adifficult experience to have
that happen.
And then she said when I wasborn, you know that there was a
lot of joy and it like madeeverything else worth it right,
because she got to hold me andshe felt so happy.
But that dichotomy of notfeeling hurt and not feeling
(21:33):
taken care of when you're atyour most vulnerable, when
you're experiencing like one ofthe most difficult things that
the human body can possibly doone of the most miraculous
things that the human body couldpossibly do, in my opinion and
to not have support, you know,is disturbing.
Christina McKelvy (21:46):
So yeah, I'll go ahead.
Lillian Isabella (21:50):
But I really value like my relationship with
my mom is is informs a lot of myart, because I grew up in a
matriarchy, so it was me, my momand my sister.
We didn't have, like you know,a father figure in the house and
so I grew up in a world wherewomen my mom, myself, my sister
we were prioritized, we were thecenter of things, we were our
(22:15):
stories, our stories, we're thecentral narrative.
And then I went out into theworld and it's like surprise,
like that's not the way thingsoperate.
We're in a patriarchal, yeahopposite.
Yeah, you know you get kind oflabeled as a feminist because
the way I grew up was at oddswith the way society was set up
and I was like, okay, yes, sure,I'll take on that, you know
(22:38):
whatever.
But for me it's more like didn'tmake sense, and so I'm always,
with my art, trying to questionand navigate and understand how
things could, how think, whythings were the way they were
for my mom and and howmatriarchy is in conversation
with and how can it be in youknow, whatever that kind of
thing.
So it's just exploration toupload it to my mom, in the
(22:59):
sense also of you know, thefeminine finding their footing
and thriving, and there's somuch more complicated way of
understanding it now than Ithink there was 20 years ago,
culturally right, like justwomen who give birth, there's
all sorts of identities thatgive birth, and so creating this
play has been a learningjourney in that as well, like
(23:21):
it's not just the feminine orthe female, there's all sorts of
complicated, layered dynamicswithin a patriarchy that are not
understood, that are notcentered and all the stuff.
Christina McKelvy (23:31):
So and, like you mentioned, with your, you
know you interviewed some ofthose non binary and trans
person as well and that you knowtheir experience and their
bodies were marginalized.
And what did you learn throughthat experience as well?
Lillian Isabella (23:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think so.
I told one of my friends likeI'm trying to avoid this play
becoming political, like I don'treally I don't want to make
people feel angry and I don'twant to make people but I'm
ultimately not in control of howpeople feel after they watch
the play.
But I've had in some outreachI've had people express anger to
(24:13):
me because I use the termbirthing people and they're like
how could you say that anyonebut a woman gives birth?
Only women give birth.
And I'm like I don't argue withthem, but it's an inaccurate
statement and I, like part ofthe process of creating this
play, has been educating myselfon, like you know, terminology
and things that are out thereand realities of people who are
(24:34):
not talked about.
Trans men have been givingbirth for decades, like it's a
thing that's been happening fora very long time, and so it's
just like you know, I thinkpeople get used to whatever
their silo is and whatever theircircle or their bubble is, and
it's like you know there's moreto it than that and learning
it's been a learning process forme as well, so, yeah, and I'm
(24:55):
curious, like the resiliencethose individuals interviewed
probably had, or otherindividuals as well that you
interviewed.
Yeah, absolutely, and you know alot of resilience and you know
the non binary person that Iinterviewed.
You know their, their storiesin the play and one of the
things they talked about is thatthey were very frustrated when
they were pregnant becausepeople would look at them as if
(25:16):
they had the gift of life andthey're like stop it.
Like other, like other peoplewould look at them and, like you
know, everything was in pink,all the things that they were
gendered, so gendered and so, soannoyed because the world was
relating to them as a woman andthey did not identify as a woman
.
They identify as a non binaryperson and so it was like very
(25:38):
annoying and they had some bodydysmorphia because their breast
tissue is starting to come backand all of these things that
were going on.
So it was a very challenginglike negotiating that transition
and that experience was verydifferent for them than for
other people.
And so and something that Ialways say, like I said earlier
in our interview, but I'm not anexpert in this area and so much
(25:59):
.
But like one thing I'm tryingto do is is is I'm actively
scheduling speakers, guestspeakers for Q and a talkbacks
after the shows.
Oh, that's fabulous, yeah, andI'm trying to.
I'm centering as much aspossible the people who are
experts.
So like organization supportgroups for, you know, loss, so
(26:22):
sometimes when someone goes intolabor, trigger warning, right,
they they'll lose their baby oryou know, they'll have a
miscarriage or all of thesethings, and so I'm having like I
have a support group that'sgoing to speak to loss and then
I have another support groupthat's going to speak to, like
you know, building.
You know the centeringhealthcare Institute came on as
(26:42):
a sponsor of the play andthey're an incredible
organization that's shifting theway prenatal care is approached
for birthing people, so thatthey create like groups of
people that follow, groups ofpregnant people that follow the
journey together and theysupport each other throughout
and they came on as a sponsorand they're going to help with
the talk back and all the stuff.
So I'm trying to, as much aspossible, center the people who
are the experts afterwards,connect people with resources,
(27:05):
because I think theater is alsoits most powerful when it's
connected with civic action ofsome sort, like you know, I
don't know about that theaterbeing the most powerful when
it's connected to civic action.
Christina McKelvy (27:18):
I it's so cool to hear like that statement
.
Lillian Isabella (27:21):
That's cool.
Yeah, I think, like you know,you go to the theater, it has
the potential to really rouseyou, to excite just you, to make
you feel something, to shakeyou out of whatever your normal
day-to-day pattern is.
And I think sometimes somebodymight want to be able to take
action or do something with thatand so, and also sometimes
somebody might be having anexperience, or they might have a
(27:43):
loved one who is experiencingloss, for example, or who is
wondering if they should get amidwife or a doula, and so
knowing that there's anorganization out there to
support them, that exists,that's doing this work, there
are, there are tons oforganizations dedicated to
maternal health and to all ofthese things, and so civic
action to me means connectingpeople with resources and
(28:04):
avenues for expression thatwould be helpful for them, and
to let them know that they'renot alone and to plug them into
community, because there's somuch community and theater in
itself is a community and buildscommunity, and so you know,
just networking, like connectingall of the networks together,
and, you know, having them feedeach other, kind of.
Christina McKelvy (28:22):
Theater helps increase the empathy.
You're in community with eachother, and then you have these
resources at the end andmentioned, like the support
groups you know, with differenttopics and themes.
Yes yeah, and how is thissimilar?
Similarly set up as I can'tspeak, but is this very similar
to your last play?
Did your last play follow asimilar framework with, like
(28:45):
those resources and stuff likethat, or?
Lillian Isabella (28:47):
A little bit.
This one's different.
I think the last topic was alittle more controversial, so
the last play was a response tothe Me Too movement.
So that was extremely importantand it brought a lot of vital
things to light.
I was utterly shocked that menhad no idea that this was
(29:10):
happening, because, growing upagain in a female household, I
heard stories from familymembers of abuse and sexual all
these things happening, and sofor me I was like, oh yep, this
is the way it is in the worldand you have to be careful as a
woman, right?
So the Me Too movement wasessential, but it was also very
it talked about a lot oftraumatizing things, and so it
(29:30):
made me question.
Like you know, sex is supposedto be fun.
It's supposed to be somethingthat we enjoy.
So what does it look likeenjoying it?
And I had one Q and A talk backfor this, for that show, and it
was very successful.
We sold out that night and,yeah, we had four guest speakers
, two men and two women, whowere specialized in sexuality
(29:50):
and in like intimacy and allthis stuff, and so we had that
one talk back and went reallywell, and that gave me the idea
for this one to try and schedulea few of them, because it led
to us selling out and to peoplehaving a robust conversation
after the play, so it feltreally good.
Christina McKelvy (30:04):
Yeah, Having like so that support and with
the different themes, because itsounds like there's probably
you probably heard all sorts ofstories during your interviews.
Yeah, yeah, and that spectrum,like you know for your current
(30:26):
play, you know Primordial, thespectrum of stories you have
lost.
You mentioned stories of lossand story.
You know stories of typicalbirth, whatever that looks like,
looks like birth withdisabilities.
They sounds like you have kindof the whole gamut there.
Lillian Isabella (30:44):
Yes, yeah, we do.
And there's a story of somebodywho was a quadriplegic, who
gave birth to twins.
Wow, yeah, we're just trying tocover as many possible angles
as I could and, knowing that,like a diverse range of age,
ethnicity, gender identity,physical ability, just as much
(31:05):
diversity as I could get,knowing that it's impossible for
me to completely like get theentirety of all the experiences,
everyone's like, oh my gosh,there's this story that I didn't
get in, or this experience I'mlike, at a certain point, I need
to, yeah, like, this is what itis and it's not everything, but
it's a good attempt at all ofit.
Christina McKelvy (31:23):
Was that the trash shoot?
Yeah, that was.
Lillian Isabella (31:27):
I tried to speak louder.
Christina McKelvy (31:31):
Oh, man Trash shoots.
That's so cool.
I don't have one.
I have to walk outside my door.
Lillian Isabella (31:37):
I'll give a little context in case that
makes sense.
It's fun.
I live next to the trash shootthe whole building and there's
12 floors.
Sometimes trash the comehurtling down.
Then I also live right nextdoor to a church.
Every half hour there's churchbells that go off.
It's very New York City.
Christina McKelvy (31:55):
Sounds like a wonderful experience.
Those of you that are not inNew York, you're getting the New
York experience vicariouslyright now.
Lillian Isabella (32:01):
That's right, we both go edit it out for you.
Christina McKelvy (32:04):
Yes, nope, it'll be the experience.
Oh, what is that type of play?
Immersion, yes, immersiveexperience, exactly.
I think that's just reallyawesome, that the player
creating is promoting awareness.
It's showing the resiliencebirthing individuals go through
(32:25):
and how they can bounce backafter adversity.
Like you said, you showed thatwhole gamut.
What were some themes of hopethat you saw with the play or
the interviews?
Lillian Isabella (32:37):
Excuse me, that's a great question.
I think some of the hopefulelements of it are some people
really took their birthingexperience into their own hands.
So they really.
They worked with a doula orthey worked with a midwife, and
(33:00):
those experiences tended to bemore positive.
They tended to feel moresupported throughout the birth
and they were able to carve outexperiences for themselves that
were flexible and adaptable tothe emergent needs of the
situation, but that also liketook into account what, what
would bring them joy, in a sense, like what would make them feel
(33:21):
good.
There's one, there's one storyin particular of this woman who
she danced when she was in labor.
And that helps because you'removing, you know like the baby
is trying to make its way out ofthe birth canal and that means
that there's gonna be like it'sa small birth canal, the baby's
(33:42):
way bigger than the birth canal,and so it's gonna be bumping up
against your organs and it'sgonna be trying to get out.
And again, I'm not an expert inthis right, I'm not a doctor,
but generally so when you'redancing, it helps, like you're
helping to move, you're helpingthe baby, it's like you and the
baby are partners in trying toget the baby out of your womb
(34:02):
and to being born, and alsodancing, and also like physical
touch from your partner, if youhave a supportive relationship
can allow, can allow endorphinsto be released and it allows you
to feel.
There was a woman whoexperienced ecstatic birth.
So she actually had the feelingof like an orgasm while giving
(34:23):
birth, where things werebrighter, things were
pleasurable, because she had,she was moving her body and she
was helping get the baby out.
So it was like a joyful,ecstatic experience and it was a
lot quicker than than her.
She also she gave birth fourtimes, so each birth is a
different experience.
And she also had a birth whereshe was forced to, you know,
(34:43):
like, lie down and it took a lotlonger.
It was very traumatic anddisturbing.
But this one was like a moreecstatic birthing dance
experience and she started thiswhole company that it's called
dancing for birth and it allowspeople to to dance and to get
into the movement and supportthe rhythm of what their body
feels and to get into that thegood feeling.
So that's one really joyful,hopeful experience.
(35:07):
And then there's another woman Italked to who's actually also a
friend of mine, and she talkedabout hip no birthing.
And so hip no birthing ispractice ahead of time and you
get your mind into a space whereyou're like breathing and
you're focusing on visuals andyou go to a place in your mind
that helps you deal with thephysical pain.
And then there's the.
You know you breathe in timewith the contractions and it's a
(35:28):
whole thing.
And she also had a doula whowas able to help her with that.
But she really practiced aheadof time and was able to get in
touch with more.
You know, she said my friendsays who did this?
Who did this kind of hip?
No birthing.
She said you would never run amarathon without training.
You would train for a marathon.
And so she treated giving birthis like something she needed to
(35:49):
train for, because it was gonnabe a physical marathon.
It was gonna be the mosthardest thing she'd ever done
physically.
So for mentally, she gotherself into a place where she
would be able to have tools andhave things that when she the
day arrived, she would beprepared.
Christina McKelvy (36:03):
You know and so that, so that helped with.
Lillian Isabella (36:08):
You know, just , it sounds like that, even that
resilience, like that bouncingback exactly, yeah, it helps her
, helps her have a sense ofcontrol in a situation that is
wild.
It's just a completely you know.
The name of the play isprimordial because it's
something that's been happeningsince the beginning of time is
giving birth and it's a verywild and raw and natural thing,
(36:30):
and so you know, it helps give asense of control and also like
preparedness for it, knowingthat you don't know what's gonna
happen in the moment, but youhave to try and manage it.
Christina McKelvy (36:40):
So yeah, and society it doesn't always set up
birthing persons with thosetools to be able to prepare for
birth.
And again, because I thinktraditionally it's.
You know, if men were givingbirth it'd be different.
Lillian Isabella (36:59):
I'm not trying to get political either, but
it's also yeah, and it's likethere's a way, I believe, to
talk about these things that isnot political.
You run into a problem if theonly time you're talking about
it is politically, because thenyou're never gonna get to
solving and healing the wounds.
You're gonna just be a tryingto debate stuff, and it's not a
debate like it's the end of theday, it's people's experiences,
(37:22):
it's like lived stories or, Ithink, the most important thing.
That's why I do documentarytheater, because that's what I
believe is the most importantthing, live stories.
Christina McKelvy (37:32):
I like that.
I'm gonna try and go to adocumentary play.
I don't know if there's any inArizona, but that's not my new
life goals to experience adocumentary play, because again
it's that quote you said whereall hearts are beating at once
or gets on the same rhythm yeahyeah, that lived experience.
(37:55):
Come see my plate.
Yes, february, they said, worktrip sponsored by me.
The podcast, um, yeah, no, Imean, I think, I think it's
beautiful and you know, birth issuch a great symbolism, I
believe, also for that hope andresilience and healing and just
(38:16):
rising from the ashes, somethingnew, something to hope for in
the future generations, and soit's really great that you're
doing a play like that's focusedon this thank you, yeah, I
think I hope it's hopeful.
Lillian Isabella (38:29):
My goal is for , when somebody finishes
watching the play, that theyfeel slightly overwhelmed
because it's gonna be a lot ofcontent.
So slightly overwhelmed andalso with a sense of they need
to talk about it more, they needto talk to their friend about
it, they need to call our mom,they need to ask a question.
(38:50):
So, like, ultimately, I thinkconversation like authentic,
direct conversation, thewillingness to be vulnerable,
the willingness to getuncomfortably intimate about
really important life topics, ishow you create change and
transformation in a society yeah, you have to be willing to get
uncomfortable you do and raw,right and real and like, yeah, I
(39:13):
think that's so important yeah,and if you're not uncomfortable
, if you don't go out of thatspace, there's not really any
change.
Christina McKelvy (39:27):
Yes, yeah, so that's one of your goals for
the audience is that they areable to experience that
discomfort.
But in order to create thatconversation, to create change,
yeah.
Lillian Isabella (39:37):
I want to make people feel a little
uncomfortable and a littleinspired uncomfortable plus
inspired, equals change?
Christina McKelvy (39:44):
I think so.
Yeah, I love it and that's why.
That's why the arts are soimportant.
You know, play, writing, booksand theater and movies, songs.
You know.
The arts are a way to be ableto instigate that conversation
in an open way and create thatchange yes, yeah, 1000 percent.
Lillian Isabella (40:06):
There's this in my last play at.
One of the people I interviewedis a tantric expert and she
talked about how she looks forecstatic experiences.
So she looks for experiencesthat pick you up and shake you
around and when you put it backdown again, your molecules are
rearranged and like she doesn'twant to just have the oh, that's
(40:27):
nice, thank you experiences.
She wants to have theexperiences and then your
transform in some way, inmoderation, you know, and in a
healthy like.
The thing I love about theater,too, is that it, for me, it's
safe.
It's like a.
It's a safe space where you'veagreed on certain rules, you've
agreed on there being a stageand they're being performers and
(40:48):
they're being, you know, a setand things, and that you, as the
audience, are agreeing to sitthere and watch the play and to
take it in and to trust theseartists with a bit of your time.
And I think that that agreement, like having that safety in
place, allows you to explorereally tough topics, really
transformative topics, becauseyou understand there's a
(41:08):
container and the containersagreed upon ahead of time by
everybody, and so then you'resafe to have an ecstatic
experience because you know whatthe rules are and you know,
you've had a baselineunderstanding of what the
experience is and you've optedinto it, and I think that's
essential for that kind of aconversation or experience being
able to feel safe while gettingshook it up and your molecules
(41:32):
being arranged, rearranged yes,100%.
Christina McKelvy (41:36):
I love it.
Love it.
Well, lillian, we are gettingtoo close, but I feel like I can
talk to you forever.
I like to ask this question toall my guests, because my
podcast is called Hopology whatgives you hope or what brings
you hope?
Lillian Isabella (41:51):
oh, I love that question.
Hmm, I think what?
What brings me hope is whenpeople are willing to talk to
each other, when people arewilling to initiate conversation
and when people are willing tolisten, and I'm also just like,
(42:14):
more immediately hopeful aboutmy play, and I feel like hopeful
that institutions like the tanksupport independent artists who
are doing things that areoutside the norm and, you know,
put their full support behind it.
That brings me hope too,because there's so much that's
changing right now withartificial intelligence and with
, you know, a million differentthings that are happening, like
(42:36):
the strikes that are going onright now with the guilds and
the unions, and they're soimportant, and like really
supporting artists andsupporting independent artists
and there are still institutionsthat do.
That brings me hope thank you.
Christina McKelvy (42:49):
Thank you so much for that and it's been a
joy having you on on the podcasttoday.
And, yes, go check out her play, primordial.
You said.
February, february first toFebruary 25th in 2024, at the
tank yes in New York City, 36thStreet, native so go check that
(43:09):
out and get a immersiveexperience where your molecules
are sticking up and you leavewanting to help enact this
change thank you so much,christina.
Lillian Isabella (43:19):
You're amazing .
Christina McKelvy (43:20):
I love chatting with you ah, you too,
you too, thank you.
Welcome to Obology.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie.
Today we speak with LillianIsabella.
Lillian is a Cuban-Americanplaywright and actor.
She's also the first knownplaywright with the rare
disorder Fennecadenaria, alsoknown as PKU.
I talked to Lillian about hernewest play, primordial.
This play premieres in Februaryat the Tank in New York City.
I encourage you to go check itout if you're in the city.
(00:21):
This play is a documentary playbased on her diverse interviews
of birthing persons.
We explored the ongoing themesof hope and resilience that
someone who gives birthexperiences, but we also talked
about the impact that theatercan have to enact change.
You're not going to want tomiss this interview.
We're going to be right back.
Welcome to Obology stories ofhope, healing and resilience.
(01:04):
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie.
Today we're going to bespeaking with Lillian Isabella.
How are you doing?
I'm doing well, thank you forhaving me.
So how are you doing today?
Lillian Isabella (01:15):
I'm doing well .
I'm doing well here in New YorkCity.
It's a beautiful night.
Christina McKelvy (01:21):
I know I'm across the country from you and
it's not night yet, but thatsounds nice.
It sounds lovely.
It's a dream for me to get outto New York one of these days.
I was close.
I've been all the way up toMaryland North Maryland so
that's the furthest east.
Yeah, so I follow you onInstagram and I know your
(01:44):
boyfriend, Rob.
I interviewed him for a podcasta few episodes ago for his
movie, and he mentioned that youhave a play that you're
promoting or you're creating.
You're the playwright.
Tell me a little bit about thatplay.
Lillian Isabella (01:57):
Yeah, absolutely yeah, and I heard
very good things from Rob, soI'm excited to chat with you.
Thank you.
The play is called Primordialand it's a verbatim documentary
theater play.
So do you know?
Christina McKelvy (02:12):
what documentary theater is.
I have no idea and I feel likeI'm going to this can be my new
obsession, after you explainwhat it is, because they look
documentaries.
Lillian Isabella (02:25):
It's like a niche genre of theater, so not a
lot of people know what it is,but it is basically documentary
based theater.
So there's a few differentforms that it can take.
The one that I practice isverbatim, meaning I interview
people and then I transcribetheir interviews and then I
(02:47):
weave those that text into atheatrical experience.
So all of the words in the playare from the people I
interviewed and then I just sortof creatively arranged them
while honoring the message, andI don't change the order or
change what they were intendingto say, but I just put them in
conversation with each other.
So Primordial specifically isabout pregnancy and childbirth.
(03:09):
So I interviewed many, many,many people about their
experiences with pregnancy andchildbirth and then I turned
over a thousand pages oftranscription from my interviews
with them into a 50 page playwhich runs about an hour and 15
minutes or so.
Christina McKelvy (03:25):
Cool An hour and 15 minutes.
So these are interviews thatyou conducted with individuals,
again about the theme ofpregnancy and childbirth, and
transcribe that.
And now it's a play, so youknow two people talking or
acting it out.
Tell me more about that process, because it sounds like it
would be long.
Lillian Isabella (03:42):
Yeah, I've been working on the play for
four years now.
For me personally, it's thelongest I've ever worked on
anything in my life, and so,yeah, it's been a long process
and the way that I envision it,it's going to be going up at the
tank in New York City inFebruary 2024.
So February 1st to February25th at the tank and it's going
(04:04):
to.
The plan is for there to befive actors and there's 30
characters that are representedin the play, so each actor is
going to play like five to sevendifferent people throughout the
course of the play.
Christina McKelvy (04:18):
Okay, okay.
So, and is the?
Is the tank theater is modeledoff as like a community theater,
or is it?
How's that set up?
Lillian Isabella (04:26):
Yeah, the tank is an off off Broadway space,
so a lot of people don't knowthe difference.
I learned it.
I went to NYU Tisch School ofthe Arts and I majored in acting
and that was where I learnedthe difference between Broadway
off off Broadway.
So the difference is literallythe number of seats.
So the, the theater space thatwe're going to be in, has 98
(04:48):
seats in it, and and and offBroadway is 99 seats or above to
a certain point.
So we are away from offBroadway and there's a lot of
reasons to do that, one of whichis like budgetary.
So the kind of contracts thatyou would do with actors is
(05:08):
different if you're in like anoff off Broadway or an off
Broadway house and there's a lotof different rules and things
that go along with the differenttypes of houses and the
contracts that happen.
But it's an amazing locations36th Street and 8th Avenue, so
it's just like a few blocks awayfrom Times Square and it's very
much in the theater district inthe theater world.
(05:30):
So, it's going to be and thetank itself produces.
So, like so many artists andprojects come through the tank
every year, like thousands ofartists, and they have a certain
small, limited number of coreproductions, so things that they
co produce, and this play istheir, one of their first for
(05:52):
the new year, and so it's veryexciting to have that drive and
that support and to be acceptedin that way as a co production
is like a really big deal andI'm so thrilled, I'm so excited
that that's happening.
Christina McKelvy (06:05):
I'm excited for you.
That's a big deal going from,and is this your first play that
you've written.
Lillian Isabella (06:11):
My second.
So it's my second full lengthplay.
So my first one, and itincludes a curse word, I'm not
sure if I can you, can it?
Christina McKelvy (06:21):
there's no rating.
Lillian Isabella (06:24):
So my first place called how we love slash
fuck.
Okay, it went up at Cherry LaneTheater in 2019.
So right before the pandemic,the fall of 2019.
And it was also documentarytheater, interviewed many, many
different people about theirwomen, about their experiences
with sexuality and intimacy, andthen I turned that into a play,
and so that was my first onethat went up, and then this is
(06:48):
the second full length one, andhow?
Christina McKelvy (06:51):
so you said, documentary theater is very
niche and so it's not.
There's not a lot out there.
What would I get from going tomaybe specifically Primordial
but a documentary type theaterversus a documentary on TV or a
movie?
Lillian Isabella (07:09):
Yeah, well, I'll point to one of my absolute
favorite documentary theaterartists.
You may have heard of her.
Her name is Anna DeVier Smith.
She is a complete badass andwhat she does is she focuses and
this is a lot of documentarytheater focuses on topics that
(07:29):
are kind of rubbing up againstthe grain of what is normal in
society, government and culture.
So it's often challenging norms.
It's often centering thecivilian or the person who is
living within the society andkind of highlighting and
amplifying their voice andquestioning why the status quo
(07:53):
is the status quo.
So Anna DeVier Smith, her styleis very much she does verbatim
theater, where she uses theirwords and plays.
She also acts as them, whichI've done in the past.
But in this new play,primordial, I'm not doing that
because I wanted to just be theplaywright and just kind of
experience it as the playwrightonly, not also a performer.
(08:14):
But Anna DeVier Smith willembody her characters and then
she'll expose kind of patternsor assumptions or like the way
things have been structurallyset up, that and invite
questions.
So documentary theater, youasked like how is it different
than watching a documentary film?
I think one of the biggest waysit's different is that you have
(08:37):
bodies in space bringing thesestories to life and you're
listening to real people'sexperiences.
So there's an element of trustthat comes into play, that you
believe that the documentarian,the documentary theater maker,
has done justice by the peoplethat they've interviewed and is
accurately representing whatthey were intending to say.
(08:59):
And I think that's the claritybetween documentary film and
documentary theater.
But there's less this is aninteresting thing for me to say.
I almost feel like there's lessartifice maybe with theater
than there is with film, becausewith documentary film you can
kind of like shape narratives orit's a complicated question
(09:20):
what you've asked.
It's a complicated question, butI think there's something about
theater where you're in thespace together and you're
feeling like there's otherbodies, they're channeling these
stories and you're kind ofwitnessing it firsthand, even
though it's not firsthand, it'slike secondhand, but it's still.
(09:41):
There's some magic in having abody share a story.
And to there's something else.
That's a really cool thing andI can't remember exactly who
said it, but it's a very famoustheater essayist, theater person
, and he says that when we go tothe theater and we're watching
something in the theater, theaudience's heartbeat sink, so
(10:04):
your heart is at the same timewhen you're watching something
in the theater, and I think thatthat's a very magical,
beautiful thing.
Christina McKelvy (10:11):
So your heartbeat is sinking together,
it's that you're all connectedand you're witnessing, like I
said, this actor in the spacetelling this story.
That is real, and so I'm, youknow, depending on how well the
actor acts that emotion thatplays into it, and then the
audience is also feeling thatemotion, that empathy that's
(10:34):
coming from the actor and it'sjust like real stories.
Lillian Isabella (10:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And there's something abouttheater, I think, where you
can't look away, like whenyou're watching a movie, or
especially if you're watching itat home, right, like in this
movie theater, it's a littledifferent, but you can go to
your phone or you can hit pauseor you can walk away, and
(10:58):
there's something about whenyou're in the theater space, you
just you really are being askedto put aside an hour and 15
minutes of your time, say, towitness this story and to be
present with a group of peoplewitnessing the story and you
feel their immediate reactionsand you feel the energy of the
performer and there's like atransmission that happens that
is more visceral, I think.
Christina McKelvy (11:18):
Yeah, it's making me excited, like go down
to my local playhouse.
Lillian Isabella (11:25):
Or local theater.
Christina McKelvy (11:27):
Yes, I definitely want to.
I saw a really lovely play,jane Eyre at the Yavapai College
in Prescott you say Prescotthere, not Prescott, and it was
just.
It was magnificent and you'reright, you know, there was that
energy and then when the personwas singing, you just felt that
emotion Cause you were therethat the screen is gone.
Lillian Isabella (11:50):
I love that the screen is gone.
That's such a beautiful way toput it.
Yeah, I am my choreographer, sowe have a choreographer and a
director and we just had ourfirst creative meeting for the
play this past Monday.
So we're starting to throwaround ideas and getting ready
(12:10):
to put out a casting notice foractors.
That's very much the phase ofthe production that we're in.
Okay, and the choreographer saidto me she was reading a certain
scene in the play when everyonewas, all the characters were
getting ready to go into labor,and she said she started to feel
anxious and she was like whoa,I don't know, I don't know if I
(12:31):
can do this, I don't know if Ican, like you know, be involved
with this play because this isreally intense.
And then she said she made itthrough that scene to the next
moment and she was like, oh no,I absolutely, you know.
Like that she realized thefeeling, cause she's been
pregnant and given birth.
So has my director, mydirector's been pregnant and
given birth?
I've never been pregnant andI've never given birth, so I'm
approaching it very much fromthe lens of somebody who's
(12:51):
investigating, who hasn't hadthat experience, so I also don't
have like a predisposed senseof what it should be or could be
or was, because I'd have neverexperienced it.
But my choreographer said sherealized what was happening to
her when she was reading.
That was, she was having thememory, like she was having that
physical memory and thatfeeling of the panic and the
like, the, the sensation you getwhen you're about to go into
(13:13):
labor and start pushing.
It's very heightened, it's veryamped.
And then she was like that is abeautiful thing for an audience
to all collectively feeltogether is this sense of?
Oh my God, it's about to start,you know.
Christina McKelvy (13:26):
Inticipatory anxiety altogether.
Lillian Isabella (13:29):
Yes, exactly Like, and to the reason that I
created this play is because Iwanted to.
It's kind of like a love letterto my mom and you know she told
my, my sister and I our birthstories, how we came to be quite
a bit from the time when wewere like young, you know.
And so when you go out in theworld, nobody talks about birth
(13:49):
Like you don't talk about theexperience of being pregnant or
being born.
It's like a secret or it'ssomething you don't.
A lot of the people I talked tosaid that they didn't feel like
anyone wanted to talk to themabout their experience at all.
Nobody asked them questions andthey felt really frustrated
because they'd gone through thiscompletely life-changing
experience.
Christina McKelvy (14:07):
And then crickets.
Lillian Isabella (14:08):
like nobody acknowledged that it happened,
that it was epic, nothing, theydidn't ask them questions.
So my goal with this play is toliterally put birthing stories
center stage.
So ask us to listen and to talkabout it and to feel and to
acknowledge and to witness thislike freaking, transformative
event that is happening all thetime.
(14:29):
Many people are born everysingle year.
Christina McKelvy (14:34):
No way, really.
What is it?
I wonder if it's because womenare giving birth.
I wonder if that's why.
Lillian Isabella (14:48):
Yeah, so a lot of you know a lot of things
that affect the female body.
We've all talked about a lotand not prioritized and not
centered.
And I also, you know, throughthis play I also spoke with a
trans man and a non-binaryperson.
Both came together as well.
It's this sense of likemarginalized bodies.
(15:08):
It happens to people who havemarginalized bodies and
marginalized experiences, and Idon't understand completely why
it's marginalized when, likehalf the population, gives birth
, it's not a marginal thing.
And every single person on theplanet, the one thing we have in
common is that we were born.
Christina McKelvy (15:29):
Yeah.
Lillian Isabella (15:30):
Like it's so obvious to me, Like we all were
born.
It is why the heck is it notthe center of how we structure
society?
Or like try and understandsociety.
It's like magical, it's how weall came to be.
You know what?
Christina McKelvy (15:45):
would that look like if we were to, you
know, focus on being born,because, you're right, it's
marginalized bodies are.
It's pushed to the side andthose with female reproductive
organs that can give birth orbirthed people are pushed to the
side.
But it's something that we'reall like.
(16:05):
You said, we're all born, everysingle one.
I don't know one person notborn Possible?
Yeah, maybe I mean.
And so what's society look likeif we were to be like oh, this
is kind of important, we need astructure society around this
very, very important thing.
Lillian Isabella (16:24):
Yeah, I mean I .
So I always say I'm not anexpert in this area, like I'm
not a dual, not a midwife, I'mnot, I'm not a politician, I'm
not any of these things.
And so I'm a playwright and I'mcreating this and trying to
explore, like, what would itlook like, creatively right, if
we were to center this and totalk about it?
I think it would be humbling, Ithink it would be encouraging
(16:47):
of conversation and like withyou know.
One early feedback I got fromstaged readings of the play is
that people immediately wantedto call their mom, like after
they saw the play, and just saylike thank you, and just say I
love you.
I think we'd have moreappreciation and honoring of the
people who give birth to us,whether they are our mom or they
(17:08):
don't.
They don't, they don't identifyas our mom, but just you know
the people who are with us, andI think it would be a society
that was more respectful, thatwas more caring you know like we
would have maternal, we wouldhave like better pregnancy leave
, like for people after they'vegiven birth.
(17:30):
We wouldn't expect them tobounce back right away, because
we would have an understandingof the trauma that can be the
experience of birth and, likereally acknowledged, we pretend,
I think that birth is somethinglike I don't know what.
What do we pretend birth islike?
Just like something like I didmy taxes, I gave birth today.
I mean like what it's such adifferent thing it's like, and I
(17:53):
think if we knew that and wetalked about it, we would honor
birthing bodies more and wewould treat people with more
respect and also maybe we wouldlove each other more.
I don't know, is this too wishy, wishy, washy, but like we
would care, we all you knowthat's such a precious act and
we were all part of it.
Christina McKelvy (18:13):
Yeah, we're all like you said.
Everyone has been born and Ithink it would also give great.
It seems like this play wouldgive great perspective for those
of the excited on childreneither I've never given birth,
you know what it's like and helpwith the empathy building 100%,
yeah, 100%.
Lillian Isabella (18:32):
And I think this play it's going to need to
come with a big trigger warning,because there are a lot and
there's a trigger warning on thepodcast episode too but there's
just so much that can happenalso that's disturbing or
traumatic, and there's also somuch joy and delight.
(18:52):
That can happen too.
But there are a lot ofexperiences that we cast
judgment on or that we try andmake political policies on that
we're not attempting tounderstand from a personal place
or from an empathetic place.
And so, to your point, I thinkif we just allow people to talk
about it and we just listen andwe take it as their personal
story rather than like apolitical statement that they're
trying to make, that it willopen the door for, like,
(19:14):
increased understanding andcompassion in the way that we
govern and the way that we liketalk to each other and about
each other.
Christina McKelvy (19:23):
Yeah, you mentioned that this story was a
love letter to your mom.
Tell me more about, like, thatconnection you know with, maybe,
your own story of being born,or you know how it affected or
impacted you?
You know to re-understand yourstory.
Lillian Isabella (19:41):
Yeah, so my mom's story is in my play.
I interviewed her and she's oneof the 30-something people
whose stories are there.
I interviewed way more than 30people, but I just got 30
stories in there.
How many people did youinterview?
I interviewed like about 50people.
Christina McKelvy (19:58):
Wow, that is awesome.
Yeah, that is so cool.
I'm just like really enthralledwith this type of play.
That's so cool.
So you interviewed your mom.
Lillian Isabella (20:08):
I interviewed my mom and her stories in there,
and you know, one of the thingsthat affected her story deeply
was she enjoyed being pregnantvery much.
She didn't have healthinsurance and she was poor.
At the time she was working ata laboratory as a scientist, so
she was getting her PhD ingenetics and she didn't have.
(20:28):
They barely pay you anything asa scientist.
When you're in training it'slike a piton.
And so she didn't have a lot ofmoney and she didn't have a
doctor.
She went to a health clinic,which is like a clinic for poor
people to help them out, andthen when she was in labor she
came into the hospital asessentially like someone off the
(20:50):
street, Like she didn't have aconnection to anyone in the
hospital.
She didn't have a preset doctoror anything like that.
So it was hard for her tonavigate.
You know, when she neededpainkillers or when she needed
extra support, they refused tohelp her.
They refused to pay inmedication because she didn't
have health insurance and so shewouldn't be able to pay for it,
(21:12):
and so it was an antagonisticrelationship in that way, and
you know, for her it was like adifficult experience to have
that happen.
And then she said when I wasborn, you know that there was a
lot of joy and it like madeeverything else worth it right,
because she got to hold me andshe felt so happy.
But that dichotomy of notfeeling hurt and not feeling
(21:33):
taken care of when you're atyour most vulnerable, when
you're experiencing like one ofthe most difficult things that
the human body can possibly doone of the most miraculous
things that the human body couldpossibly do, in my opinion and
to not have support, you know,is disturbing.
Christina McKelvy (21:46):
So yeah, I'll go ahead.
Lillian Isabella (21:50):
But I really value like my relationship with
my mom is is informs a lot of myart, because I grew up in a
matriarchy, so it was me, my momand my sister.
We didn't have, like you know,a father figure in the house and
so I grew up in a world wherewomen my mom, myself, my sister
we were prioritized, we were thecenter of things, we were our
(22:15):
stories, our stories, we're thecentral narrative.
And then I went out into theworld and it's like surprise,
like that's not the way thingsoperate.
We're in a patriarchal, yeahopposite.
Yeah, you know you get kind oflabeled as a feminist because
the way I grew up was at oddswith the way society was set up
and I was like, okay, yes, sure,I'll take on that, you know
(22:38):
whatever.
But for me it's more like didn'tmake sense, and so I'm always,
with my art, trying to questionand navigate and understand how
things could, how think, whythings were the way they were
for my mom and and howmatriarchy is in conversation
with and how can it be in youknow, whatever that kind of
thing.
So it's just exploration toupload it to my mom, in the
(22:59):
sense also of you know, thefeminine finding their footing
and thriving, and there's somuch more complicated way of
understanding it now than Ithink there was 20 years ago,
culturally right, like justwomen who give birth, there's
all sorts of identities thatgive birth, and so creating this
play has been a learningjourney in that as well, like
(23:21):
it's not just the feminine orthe female, there's all sorts of
complicated, layered dynamicswithin a patriarchy that are not
understood, that are notcentered and all the stuff.
Christina McKelvy (23:31):
So and, like you mentioned, with your, you
know you interviewed some ofthose non binary and trans
person as well and that you knowtheir experience and their
bodies were marginalized.
And what did you learn throughthat experience as well?
Lillian Isabella (23:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think so.
I told one of my friends likeI'm trying to avoid this play
becoming political, like I don'treally I don't want to make
people feel angry and I don'twant to make people but I'm
ultimately not in control of howpeople feel after they watch
the play.
But I've had in some outreachI've had people express anger to
(24:13):
me because I use the termbirthing people and they're like
how could you say that anyonebut a woman gives birth?
Only women give birth.
And I'm like I don't argue withthem, but it's an inaccurate
statement and I, like part ofthe process of creating this
play, has been educating myselfon, like you know, terminology
and things that are out thereand realities of people who are
(24:34):
not talked about.
Trans men have been givingbirth for decades, like it's a
thing that's been happening fora very long time, and so it's
just like you know, I thinkpeople get used to whatever
their silo is and whatever theircircle or their bubble is, and
it's like you know there's moreto it than that and learning
it's been a learning process forme as well, so, yeah, and I'm
(24:55):
curious, like the resiliencethose individuals interviewed
probably had, or otherindividuals as well that you
interviewed.
Yeah, absolutely, and you know alot of resilience and you know
the non binary person that Iinterviewed.
You know their, their storiesin the play and one of the
things they talked about is thatthey were very frustrated when
they were pregnant becausepeople would look at them as if
(25:16):
they had the gift of life andthey're like stop it.
Like other, like other peoplewould look at them and, like you
know, everything was in pink,all the things that they were
gendered, so gendered and so, soannoyed because the world was
relating to them as a woman andthey did not identify as a woman
.
They identify as a non binaryperson and so it was like very
(25:38):
annoying and they had some bodydysmorphia because their breast
tissue is starting to come backand all of these things that
were going on.
So it was a very challenginglike negotiating that transition
and that experience was verydifferent for them than for
other people.
And so and something that Ialways say, like I said earlier
in our interview, but I'm not anexpert in this area and so much
(25:59):
.
But like one thing I'm tryingto do is is is I'm actively
scheduling speakers, guestspeakers for Q and a talkbacks
after the shows.
Oh, that's fabulous, yeah, andI'm trying to.
I'm centering as much aspossible the people who are
experts.
So like organization supportgroups for, you know, loss, so
(26:22):
sometimes when someone goes intolabor, trigger warning, right,
they they'll lose their baby oryou know, they'll have a
miscarriage or all of thesethings, and so I'm having like I
have a support group that'sgoing to speak to loss and then
I have another support groupthat's going to speak to, like
you know, building.
You know the centeringhealthcare Institute came on as
(26:42):
a sponsor of the play andthey're an incredible
organization that's shifting theway prenatal care is approached
for birthing people, so thatthey create like groups of
people that follow, groups ofpregnant people that follow the
journey together and theysupport each other throughout
and they came on as a sponsorand they're going to help with
the talk back and all the stuff.
So I'm trying to, as much aspossible, center the people who
are the experts afterwards,connect people with resources,
(27:05):
because I think theater is alsoits most powerful when it's
connected with civic action ofsome sort, like you know, I
don't know about that theaterbeing the most powerful when
it's connected to civic action.
Christina McKelvy (27:18):
I it's so cool to hear like that statement
.
Lillian Isabella (27:21):
That's cool.
Yeah, I think, like you know,you go to the theater, it has
the potential to really rouseyou, to excite just you, to make
you feel something, to shakeyou out of whatever your normal
day-to-day pattern is.
And I think sometimes somebodymight want to be able to take
action or do something with thatand so, and also sometimes
somebody might be having anexperience, or they might have a
(27:43):
loved one who is experiencingloss, for example, or who is
wondering if they should get amidwife or a doula, and so
knowing that there's anorganization out there to
support them, that exists,that's doing this work, there
are, there are tons oforganizations dedicated to
maternal health and to all ofthese things, and so civic
action to me means connectingpeople with resources and
(28:04):
avenues for expression thatwould be helpful for them, and
to let them know that they'renot alone and to plug them into
community, because there's somuch community and theater in
itself is a community and buildscommunity, and so you know,
just networking, like connectingall of the networks together,
and, you know, having them feedeach other, kind of.
Christina McKelvy (28:22):
Theater helps increase the empathy.
You're in community with eachother, and then you have these
resources at the end andmentioned, like the support
groups you know, with differenttopics and themes.
Yes yeah, and how is thissimilar?
Similarly set up as I can'tspeak, but is this very similar
to your last play?
Did your last play follow asimilar framework with, like
(28:45):
those resources and stuff likethat, or?
Lillian Isabella (28:47):
A little bit.
This one's different.
I think the last topic was alittle more controversial, so
the last play was a response tothe Me Too movement.
So that was extremely importantand it brought a lot of vital
things to light.
I was utterly shocked that menhad no idea that this was
(29:10):
happening, because, growing upagain in a female household, I
heard stories from familymembers of abuse and sexual all
these things happening, and sofor me I was like, oh yep, this
is the way it is in the worldand you have to be careful as a
woman, right?
So the Me Too movement wasessential, but it was also very
it talked about a lot oftraumatizing things, and so it
(29:30):
made me question.
Like you know, sex is supposedto be fun.
It's supposed to be somethingthat we enjoy.
So what does it look likeenjoying it?
And I had one Q and A talk backfor this, for that show, and it
was very successful.
We sold out that night and,yeah, we had four guest speakers
, two men and two women, whowere specialized in sexuality
(29:50):
and in like intimacy and allthis stuff, and so we had that
one talk back and went reallywell, and that gave me the idea
for this one to try and schedulea few of them, because it led
to us selling out and to peoplehaving a robust conversation
after the play, so it feltreally good.
Christina McKelvy (30:04):
Yeah, Having like so that support and with
the different themes, because itsounds like there's probably
you probably heard all sorts ofstories during your interviews.
Yeah, yeah, and that spectrum,like you know for your current
(30:26):
play, you know Primordial, thespectrum of stories you have
lost.
You mentioned stories of lossand story.
You know stories of typicalbirth, whatever that looks like,
looks like birth withdisabilities.
They sounds like you have kindof the whole gamut there.
Lillian Isabella (30:44):
Yes, yeah, we do.
And there's a story of somebodywho was a quadriplegic, who
gave birth to twins.
Wow, yeah, we're just trying tocover as many possible angles
as I could and, knowing that,like a diverse range of age,
ethnicity, gender identity,physical ability, just as much
(31:05):
diversity as I could get,knowing that it's impossible for
me to completely like get theentirety of all the experiences,
everyone's like, oh my gosh,there's this story that I didn't
get in, or this experience I'mlike, at a certain point, I need
to, yeah, like, this is what itis and it's not everything, but
it's a good attempt at all ofit.
Christina McKelvy (31:23):
Was that the trash shoot?
Yeah, that was.
Lillian Isabella (31:27):
I tried to speak louder.
Christina McKelvy (31:31):
Oh, man Trash shoots.
That's so cool.
I don't have one.
I have to walk outside my door.
Lillian Isabella (31:37):
I'll give a little context in case that
makes sense.
It's fun.
I live next to the trash shootthe whole building and there's
12 floors.
Sometimes trash the comehurtling down.
Then I also live right nextdoor to a church.
Every half hour there's churchbells that go off.
It's very New York City.
Christina McKelvy (31:55):
Sounds like a wonderful experience.
Those of you that are not inNew York, you're getting the New
York experience vicariouslyright now.
Lillian Isabella (32:01):
That's right, we both go edit it out for you.
Christina McKelvy (32:04):
Yes, nope, it'll be the experience.
Oh, what is that type of play?
Immersion, yes, immersiveexperience, exactly.
I think that's just reallyawesome, that the player
creating is promoting awareness.
It's showing the resiliencebirthing individuals go through
(32:25):
and how they can bounce backafter adversity.
Like you said, you showed thatwhole gamut.
What were some themes of hopethat you saw with the play or
the interviews?
Lillian Isabella (32:37):
Excuse me, that's a great question.
I think some of the hopefulelements of it are some people
really took their birthingexperience into their own hands.
So they really.
They worked with a doula orthey worked with a midwife, and
(33:00):
those experiences tended to bemore positive.
They tended to feel moresupported throughout the birth
and they were able to carve outexperiences for themselves that
were flexible and adaptable tothe emergent needs of the
situation, but that also liketook into account what, what
would bring them joy, in a sense, like what would make them feel
(33:21):
good.
There's one, there's one storyin particular of this woman who
she danced when she was in labor.
And that helps because you'removing, you know like the baby
is trying to make its way out ofthe birth canal and that means
that there's gonna be like it'sa small birth canal, the baby's
(33:42):
way bigger than the birth canal,and so it's gonna be bumping up
against your organs and it'sgonna be trying to get out.
And again, I'm not an expert inthis right, I'm not a doctor,
but generally so when you'redancing, it helps, like you're
helping to move, you're helpingthe baby, it's like you and the
baby are partners in trying toget the baby out of your womb
(34:02):
and to being born, and alsodancing, and also like physical
touch from your partner, if youhave a supportive relationship
can allow, can allow endorphinsto be released and it allows you
to feel.
There was a woman whoexperienced ecstatic birth.
So she actually had the feelingof like an orgasm while giving
(34:23):
birth, where things werebrighter, things were
pleasurable, because she had,she was moving her body and she
was helping get the baby out.
So it was like a joyful,ecstatic experience and it was a
lot quicker than than her.
She also she gave birth fourtimes, so each birth is a
different experience.
And she also had a birth whereshe was forced to, you know,
(34:43):
like, lie down and it took a lotlonger.
It was very traumatic anddisturbing.
But this one was like a moreecstatic birthing dance
experience and she started thiswhole company that it's called
dancing for birth and it allowspeople to to dance and to get
into the movement and supportthe rhythm of what their body
feels and to get into that thegood feeling.
So that's one really joyful,hopeful experience.
(35:07):
And then there's another woman Italked to who's actually also a
friend of mine, and she talkedabout hip no birthing.
And so hip no birthing ispractice ahead of time and you
get your mind into a space whereyou're like breathing and
you're focusing on visuals andyou go to a place in your mind
that helps you deal with thephysical pain.
And then there's the.
You know you breathe in timewith the contractions and it's a
(35:28):
whole thing.
And she also had a doula whowas able to help her with that.
But she really practiced aheadof time and was able to get in
touch with more.
You know, she said my friendsays who did this?
Who did this kind of hip?
No birthing.
She said you would never run amarathon without training.
You would train for a marathon.
And so she treated giving birthis like something she needed to
(35:49):
train for, because it was gonnabe a physical marathon.
It was gonna be the mosthardest thing she'd ever done
physically.
So for mentally, she gotherself into a place where she
would be able to have tools andhave things that when she the
day arrived, she would beprepared.
Christina McKelvy (36:03):
You know and so that, so that helped with.
Lillian Isabella (36:08):
You know, just , it sounds like that, even that
resilience, like that bouncingback exactly, yeah, it helps her
, helps her have a sense ofcontrol in a situation that is
wild.
It's just a completely you know.
The name of the play isprimordial because it's
something that's been happeningsince the beginning of time is
giving birth and it's a verywild and raw and natural thing,
(36:30):
and so you know, it helps give asense of control and also like
preparedness for it, knowingthat you don't know what's gonna
happen in the moment, but youhave to try and manage it.
Christina McKelvy (36:40):
So yeah, and society it doesn't always set up
birthing persons with thosetools to be able to prepare for
birth.
And again, because I thinktraditionally it's.
You know, if men were givingbirth it'd be different.
Lillian Isabella (36:59):
I'm not trying to get political either, but
it's also yeah, and it's likethere's a way, I believe, to
talk about these things that isnot political.
You run into a problem if theonly time you're talking about
it is politically, because thenyou're never gonna get to
solving and healing the wounds.
You're gonna just be a tryingto debate stuff, and it's not a
debate like it's the end of theday, it's people's experiences,
(37:22):
it's like lived stories or, Ithink, the most important thing.
That's why I do documentarytheater, because that's what I
believe is the most importantthing, live stories.
Christina McKelvy (37:32):
I like that.
I'm gonna try and go to adocumentary play.
I don't know if there's any inArizona, but that's not my new
life goals to experience adocumentary play, because again
it's that quote you said whereall hearts are beating at once
or gets on the same rhythm yeahyeah, that lived experience.
(37:55):
Come see my plate.
Yes, february, they said, worktrip sponsored by me.
The podcast, um, yeah, no, Imean, I think, I think it's
beautiful and you know, birth issuch a great symbolism, I
believe, also for that hope andresilience and healing and just
(38:16):
rising from the ashes, somethingnew, something to hope for in
the future generations, and soit's really great that you're
doing a play like that's focusedon this thank you, yeah, I
think I hope it's hopeful.
Lillian Isabella (38:29):
My goal is for , when somebody finishes
watching the play, that theyfeel slightly overwhelmed
because it's gonna be a lot ofcontent.
So slightly overwhelmed andalso with a sense of they need
to talk about it more, they needto talk to their friend about
it, they need to call our mom,they need to ask a question.
(38:50):
So, like, ultimately, I thinkconversation like authentic,
direct conversation, thewillingness to be vulnerable,
the willingness to getuncomfortably intimate about
really important life topics, ishow you create change and
transformation in a society yeah, you have to be willing to get
uncomfortable you do and raw,right and real and like, yeah, I
(39:13):
think that's so important yeah,and if you're not uncomfortable
, if you don't go out of thatspace, there's not really any
change.
Christina McKelvy (39:27):
Yes, yeah, so that's one of your goals for
the audience is that they areable to experience that
discomfort.
But in order to create thatconversation, to create change,
yeah.
Lillian Isabella (39:37):
I want to make people feel a little
uncomfortable and a littleinspired uncomfortable plus
inspired, equals change?
Christina McKelvy (39:44):
I think so.
Yeah, I love it and that's why.
That's why the arts are soimportant.
You know, play, writing, booksand theater and movies, songs.
You know.
The arts are a way to be ableto instigate that conversation
in an open way and create thatchange yes, yeah, 1000 percent.
Lillian Isabella (40:06):
There's this in my last play at.
One of the people I interviewedis a tantric expert and she
talked about how she looks forecstatic experiences.
So she looks for experiencesthat pick you up and shake you
around and when you put it backdown again, your molecules are
rearranged and like she doesn'twant to just have the oh, that's
(40:27):
nice, thank you experiences.
She wants to have theexperiences and then your
transform in some way, inmoderation, you know, and in a
healthy like.
The thing I love about theater,too, is that it, for me, it's
safe.
It's like a.
It's a safe space where you'veagreed on certain rules, you've
agreed on there being a stageand they're being performers and
(40:48):
they're being, you know, a setand things, and that you, as the
audience, are agreeing to sitthere and watch the play and to
take it in and to trust theseartists with a bit of your time.
And I think that that agreement, like having that safety in
place, allows you to explorereally tough topics, really
transformative topics, becauseyou understand there's a
(41:08):
container and the containersagreed upon ahead of time by
everybody, and so then you'resafe to have an ecstatic
experience because you know whatthe rules are and you know,
you've had a baselineunderstanding of what the
experience is and you've optedinto it, and I think that's
essential for that kind of aconversation or experience being
able to feel safe while gettingshook it up and your molecules
(41:32):
being arranged, rearranged yes,100%.
Christina McKelvy (41:36):
I love it.
Love it.
Well, lillian, we are gettingtoo close, but I feel like I can
talk to you forever.
I like to ask this question toall my guests, because my
podcast is called Hopology whatgives you hope or what brings
you hope?
Lillian Isabella (41:51):
oh, I love that question.
Hmm, I think what?
What brings me hope is whenpeople are willing to talk to
each other, when people arewilling to initiate conversation
and when people are willing tolisten, and I'm also just like,
(42:14):
more immediately hopeful aboutmy play, and I feel like hopeful
that institutions like the tanksupport independent artists who
are doing things that areoutside the norm and, you know,
put their full support behind it.
That brings me hope too,because there's so much that's
changing right now withartificial intelligence and with
, you know, a million differentthings that are happening, like
(42:36):
the strikes that are going onright now with the guilds and
the unions, and they're soimportant, and like really
supporting artists andsupporting independent artists
and there are still institutionsthat do.
That brings me hope thank you.
Christina McKelvy (42:49):
Thank you so much for that and it's been a
joy having you on on the podcasttoday.
And, yes, go check out her play, primordial.
You said.
February, february first toFebruary 25th in 2024, at the
tank yes in New York City, 36thStreet, native so go check that
(43:09):
out and get a immersiveexperience where your molecules
are sticking up and you leavewanting to help enact this
change thank you so much,christina.
Lillian Isabella (43:19):
You're amazing .
Christina McKelvy (43:20):
I love chatting with you ah, you too,
you too, thank you.
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