Join us on this episode of Hopeology as we sit down with Dr. Max Kusovitsky, a psychoanalyst from the New York/New Jersey tri-state area. Dr. Kusovitsky peels back the layers of psychodynamic therapy, debunking myths about Freudian and Jungian practices, and reveals how modern techniques uncover unconscious thoughts to facilitate genuine healing and transformation. Discover how meaningful therapeutic work goes beyond surface-level issues to foster resilience and authenticity.
How do we balance fostering hope with the risk of it becoming unrealistic? Our discussion ventures into the delicate boundaries of hope, using examples like grandiose fantasies to highlight the need for empathy and respect in therapy. Drawing from Rogerian theory, Christina emphasizes the importance of unconditional positive regard and tailoring therapeutic approaches to each person's unique circumstances. Dr. Kusovitsky provides insights into the nuanced role of hope in therapy, marking the fine line between beneficial optimism and harmful delusion.
We also explore the intricate dance between resilience and hope in the quest for personal growth. Resilience acts as a shield against life's adversities, while hope serves as the North Star guiding individuals toward their dreams. Through engaging anecdotes and practical examples, we unravel the transformative journey from a fabricated self to an authentic one. Learn how understanding unconscious desires and setting realistic goals can lead to profound personal transformation, and how practitioners can nurture these qualities for true healing and growth. Tune in for a deeper understanding of the complex interplay between resilience, hope, and authenticity in psychodynamic therapy.
More info: meaningfultherapy.org
Information on where you can find us.
Follow us on Instagram: @hopeologypodcast and the host @writerchristinamckelvy
To support the show, go to: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeologypodcast
Disclaimer: The views reflected by any of the guests may not reflect the views of the podcast host. Some topics may be difficult for some viewers, so proceed at your own risk. This podcast does not replace psychotherapy or advice and is for entertainment purposes only.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina McKelvy (00:00):
Welcome to Hopology stories of hope,
healing and resilience.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvey.
Today we're going to bespeaking with Dr Kuzovitsky.
He's a psychoanalyst and he'sresearched different ways that
hope can bring meaning to people.
How are you?
Max Kusovitky (00:15):
I'm okay.
I'm excited to be here.
Christina McKelvy (00:19):
Excited too.
Why don't you introduceyourself for us?
Max Kusovitky (00:23):
Sure, so I'm Dr Kuzovitsky, but obviously Max is
fine.
I'm a psychoanalyst practicingin New York, new Jersey
tri-state area, and I guess whatbrought me here involved, as we
previously discussed, is therelationship to hope and how it
plays out in the frame ofpsychodynamic therapy or
(00:44):
psychoanalytic therapy or justmeaningful therapy, or whatever
people prefer to call it.
And I felt particularlymotivated to speak to and attend
to how complicated it is, andespecially when hope as a virtue
is not the same thing as hopeas it's played out in the
therapeutic dynamic or thetherapeutic frame, and it
(01:07):
deserves to be understood in amuch more meaningful way.
It's complicated, it certainlycan be a danger and it certainly
can be a wonderful, wonderfulthing that fuels something like
resilience in a person.
Christina McKelvy (01:23):
It can be a danger.
I want to focus on that in aminute but before we do, can you
lay out the framework a littlebit on psychodynamic,
psychoanalyst framework, becauseI know some of our listeners
might be like oh, I'm familiarwith CBT or EMDR, all these
different types of therapy.
It's super saturated.
Max Kusovitky (01:42):
So if you want to explain a little bit, yes,
the alphabet soup ofcontemporary therapy, right,
it's super saturated.
So, if you want to explain alittle bit, yes, the alphabet
soup of contemporary Right.
So so much.
So I I'm standing on theshoulders of giants who have
said this better than I can, butessentially, what depth therapy
is?
Psychodynamic therapy isbringing awareness where it
(02:03):
hasn't been before, bringingconsciousness where it hasn't
been before, saying the quietparts aloud, essentially
introspecting in a robust sense,that is to say, an appreciation
of the unconscious landscape,which certainly exists.
And by getting to knowourselves much more fully, by
experiencing things that wemight avoid experiencing through
(02:25):
the nature of ego defenses, asit's called, or just keeping
them out of awareness, we canfacilitate a real and actual
healing resolution, as we wouldcall it in the sense of inner
conflict that might not be feltprior to entering into a
treatment like that.
So a symptom, to speak evenmore simply, is not separate
(02:46):
from the self.
A symptom is part of theanatomy of one's own psychology.
The metaphor often used is thefever.
The fever can be caused by amultitude of pathologies and you
could take Tylenol to get ridof the fever, but that doesn't
address, maybe, the infection.
Or you can take Tylenol to getrid of the fever, but that
(03:07):
doesn't address, maybe, theinfection.
Or you can take anothermedication that is analgesic and
neutralizes the pain, but thepain returns and the
inflammation returns, maybesometimes with a vengeance
therapy or in-depth therapy inservice of understanding
themselves, which is eventuallywhat can give rise to not only
(03:27):
hope.
Uh pun maybe not pun intended,but intended to say uh what
gives rise to the opportunity toheal that they might not have
had otherwise or prior okay, itsounds like the root, getting to
the root of the issue, asopposed to putting a band-aid on
into that?
yes, that is, that is commonlyused my anxiety my anxiety,
(03:50):
sometimes, as people, you know,I want to stay as diplomatic as
possible.
I don't want to offend otherforms of therapy, but yes, we,
we, I.
I tend to agree with that inthat the genesis or origination
of so many of what we experienceas symptoms in today's world,
or what the DSM organizes assymptoms, but without causality
(04:12):
or etiology, it's reallyimportant.
Right, the symptoms existanxiety, depression, what
happens, somatic issues and soon but if we don't dignify the
reality of our own psychologyand saying that this is
something that can actuallygenerate suffering or a point of
suffering, we do our ownhumanity a really huge
(04:33):
disservice, and I don't thinkany of that is an exaggeration.
Christina McKelvy (04:38):
Yeah, it's like the point of suffering.
This is like the point ofsuffering, this is like the like
, like the foundation almost,and it's more than because when
people hear psycho, analytic,analytic theory, I am having a
hard time speaking today.
Probably shouldn't have hadthat whole big cup of coffee
before.
But you know, people hear aboutlike they think traditional
(04:59):
therapy, freud, young thingslike that.
Yes, the common what we say.
Max Kusovitky (05:04):
Again, you're teeing me up for some wonderful
classical refrains we use.
They argue against the strawman from the horse and buggy era
.
So they say psychoanalysis isthe same thing that you know.
Hysteria is a good example ofthe wandering womb, or something
.
And as if, in my trainingstarting in the 2010s, as if
(05:26):
that's what I was taught, eventhough that was something said,
obviously, in 18, I don'tremember 80s or 90s, and yet
it's true.
People argue as if nothing'schanged in 110 years.
But if the example we use ascontrast or to confront, that is
, people aren't bloodlettinganymore, we don't argue against
that.
People aren't talking about thefour humors anymore, you don't
(05:46):
argue against that.
People aren't talking about thefour humors anymore.
People aren't arguing, arguingagainst that.
But when it comes to psychologyand you say you're a
psychoanalyst, people think, yes, that you're lying down on a
couch and you know, seven timesa week and giving away your,
your child's college tuition topay me so I could build my pool,
and it's just to pay me so Icould build my pool, and a lot
of it is incredibly untrue andunfair.
(06:06):
But it goes with the territoryof doing the real work, as you
were saying, of what gives riseto hope and meaning in
somebody's life.
It's a very seriousresponsibility.
Christina McKelvy (06:17):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm yeah yeah, and I think
there's a lot of.
I don't know if animosity isthe right word.
That's not the right word, butyou know, maybe I'll wall up
with it just because of Freud.
Max Kusovitky (06:29):
It's the right word, okay.
Christina McKelvy (06:31):
It's the right word, but you know I'm a
therapist and a lot of theadults I work with I always go
back to birth to five.
You know we're going to do somebirth to five work, early
childhood work.
We're going to look at whathappened to you in the womb,
we're going to look at you knowum, the generational patterns
with your parents and we'regoing to look at maybe some of
(06:51):
these core beliefs is cbt, but Ifeel like you can't get away
from doing psychodynamic work,even if you are aligned with
other theoretical orientations.
So I think it's, it's afoundation, is my belief yeah,
we.
Max Kusovitky (07:03):
We would say that the reinvention of the
wheel has been tried over andover the last 140, 130 years,
and human psychology has notchanged since the species began
about 200,000 years ago.
It's still the same, the drives, what motivates us, animates us
, mobilizes us, the hierarchy ofsystems in the brain, if you
(07:26):
want to bring in theneuroscience stuff, it hasn't
changed.
And so to say that affect isn'tfueling thought in this
topography of the brain to me,someone like me, is to sort of
fit, is to sort of lie.
And so we have to appreciatethat these systems work in an
emergent way, in a systematicway, in that psychoanalysis or
(07:51):
just call it meaningful,whatever meaningful therapy,
depth therapy appreciates thereality of how the brain and
mind are super deemed or mappedonto each other.
Or just say how the heart, soul, spirit, mind and brain are
mapped onto each other.
Again we.
Or just say how the heart, soul, spirit, mind and brain are
mapped onto each other.
Again, we're trying to be asinclusive as possible.
It ought not be a civil war.
Christina McKelvy (08:14):
Civil war within the fields.
But yes, you know, the heart,soul, brain, mind all, like you
said, are mapped onto each other.
So I think that leads us tosomething you said at the
beginning that hope can bedangerous, and so my podcast is
called Hopeology.
I love hearing stories abouthope, healing and resilience,
(08:34):
but I think I'm guessing whereyou're going to go with it.
So I'm actually really excitedto hear your perspective on what
you mean by how hope can bedangerous.
So let's delve more into that.
Max Kusovitky (08:48):
Sure, so to provide, I guess, some
background and context.
Essentially what?
Although it's a nice soundbite,it's very pithy.
Christina McKelvy (09:00):
I know I was just thinking not to laugh.
Max Kusovitky (09:04):
It's true, it's a good soundbite, We'll get some
clicks.
Hope can be dangerous insofaras who's harboring the hope,
who's generating the hope, who'sferrying the hope back and
forth in the therapeuticrelationship or frame.
(09:25):
And, of course, what hope means?
Let's get back to theindividual, what hope means to
the patient or the person.
And hope throughout our livesplays different roles.
You know the inability toconstruct hope I think Raoul May
said this, I could be wrong isthe genesis of depression.
I mean, you can't construct afuture plan.
You know the absence of hope inpeople's lives, and hopelessness
and its symmetry to despair hasbeen talked about by Mitchell,
(09:47):
and other say that if it'sutilized defensively which is
(10:07):
maybe a controversial statement,but it can be utilized as a
preventative, prophylactic, amembrane of sorts, it can get in
the way of somebody's actualstrivings towards potential.
And so what that means is thatspeak kind of more, more plainly
is that hope can be somethingsomeone holds onto, but it can
be based, founded upon fantasythat is incongruent with reality
(10:32):
.
So the hope can be generated ororiginated within the mind,
spirit, the heart as we weretalking about, but it might not
be congruent or mapped onto apotential reality for that
individual.
So if my hope let's speak verysimply if my hope was to be the
king of England and then I foundout that I was born in the
United States, or I denied adefense that I was born in the
(10:54):
United States, that could bequite painful and that also can
produce real symptomatology.
I might get very depressed, Imight lose my spark or vitality
or resilience in life, and sohope is very different as a verb
or as a an actionable conceptthan it is as a virtue
(11:23):
no-transcript.
Christina McKelvy (11:25):
So to summarize it sound what you're
talking about is when someonehas this false sense of hope,
unrealistic expectations andrealistic hope, like you
mentioned.
If it's my hope to be the kingof england, but I was born in
america and not even from youknow the royal family, then
that's gonna which I'm not, bythe way yes, disclaimer
everybody I am not speaking tothe royal family, but that would
(11:46):
be cool if you know of anyonewill be be cool.
What brings you guys is hope.
No, yeah, so it's like settingup like that could be dangerous
if we go back to that Right.
Max Kusovitky (11:59):
And even the phrase, you know, can be quite
controversial.
Again, I'm sticking withdiplomacy as best I can, as best
I can.
Realistic versus unrealistic canbe a controversial because,
depending on the person'spersonality, organization or
structure or realm of wherethey're organized to speak to
dynamic principles and neuroticand a borderland or psychotic,
(12:20):
the realistic hope might be thatthey become King of England,
president of the United States,oscar winner, pulitzer Prize
winner of england, president,united states oscar winner, a
poltergeist winner, you name it,and it could.
It can be incredibly intoxicatedand incredibly seductive at the
same time, and this is the hardpart, because the unconscious
could have lots of paradoxes, itcan be very defensive.
(12:42):
So, again, the king of englandexample is so powerful where
that person might need tobelieve that they have the
capacity or potential, or maybethey've been wronged or slighted
by the royal family a funnytopic today and they really
should be the king of England,you know.
And so people have these beliefsystems, which is, again,
(13:03):
belief and hope go hand in hand,and so they can very strongly
believe in a hope that might notbe congruent, we would say,
with who they actually are.
There's a big differencebetween authenticity and a sort
of fabricated sense of self or afalse self or, you know, an
(13:23):
image.
People might say as well.
Christina McKelvy (13:25):
Okay.
So where do you draw the linebetween okay, this false sense
of hope is needed for thisindividual at this moment, to
maybe we need to kind of delveinto this more and help this
individual know.
Well, this is not reallyrealistic.
(13:46):
Where do you draw that line?
Max Kusovitky (13:48):
you know this is not really realistic, like
where do you draw that line?
So it's a really it's a reallyreally good question.
But the classic answer is not acop out, and I will elaborate
is is it's?
case by case, because you, Ithink, by asking, already
recognize what you're asking,insofar as that hope or fantasy
of hope might be gluing themtogether.
And if I were to rob them ofthat, if I were to surgically
(14:11):
excise it and remove it from theanatomy of their own psychology
, they could genuinely fracture.
That's not any hyperbole,that's not an exaggeration.
So the word we use is tact,which is to say there is an art
and science, a tact to knowingwhen this person is amenable or
available to appraising theirrelationship to that fantasy of
(14:37):
hope.
And let's say it's.
In this case, let's say it'sfalse.
So it's not congruent withtheir way of being or where they
live, and whatever it might be,or their age, or you name it,
and the work of addressing ittakes a certain arc of
understanding.
Let's use a lotto as a classicexample.
I'm going to bet all my moneyand just win lotto eventually,
(15:00):
so I don't have to worry aboutanything.
That can be a fantasy of hope,that can drive somebody.
And if I said first meeting hi,I'm Dr Kuzovitsky, let's get
rid of it.
You came here, you werereferred by your husband or wife
or spouse or parent becauseyou're addicted to the lotto.
I'd probably say it that way,but we have to get rid of it now
(15:21):
.
Christina McKelvy (15:21):
The person would run out of the office,
they'd laugh at me, they'd scoff.
Max Kusovitky (15:26):
And so the work of establishing trust first, and
understanding and empathizingwith the hope again, and
treating the hope as anactionable, you know,
serviceable fuel, almost like agas station you bring to mind in
this conversation, beappreciated as a systemic part
(15:50):
of what's fueling their vitality.
And again, if I were to tellthem, oh, that's all wrong,
there'd be no work to be had.
They would never trust me, theywould never trust their
relationship to their ownperception or they would never
have the wherewithal to see theforest for the trees, let's say,
and start to investigate whatgives rise to that need for that
fantasy of hope, and that's thedanger it has to be treated
(16:11):
with.
I would use the word respect,even if it seems outlandish,
(16:35):
which is a whole otherconversation about treating
somebody who might be more.
Can I use the word psychotic?
I don't know anymore.
We would use the word psychotic, but what I mean is very
alienated from reality, like theking of england fantasy.
My job would not be to convincethem that the hope of becoming
the king of eng is bad orpathological.
My work, in speaking tounderstanding the hope and
(16:56):
liberating resilience, would beto help them understand where
that comes from.
Christina McKelvy (17:02):
Help them gain that insight.
So it's going to Rogeriantheory.
It's unconditional positiveregard, meeting them where
they're at yes, it gets tricky.
Max Kusovitky (17:15):
Unconditional gets very that's.
I don't know how many hours youhave today, but that that's a
tricky concept throwing thingsat you.
I don't mean to no no, I'm, I'm,I'm, I would.
I would love to talk about it.
I'll'll talk in Blue Streakabout it.
But there is certainly, yes,positivity, affection, but it's
couched within the frame and inmy point of view and take it
(17:39):
with a bowl of salt there'splenty of people who disagree
with me it is absolutelyconditional and it's conditional
in the sense that it has to bewithin the frame.
Now someone could say I'mmisconceptualizing unconditional
positive art and I'm no expertin Roger's work.
But in my understanding thatpositivity is more.
I would just translate it andsay the affection and respect
(18:03):
and dignification if that's aword of the patient's psychology
is where my investment goes.
My emotional investment goes inthe work, including all the
stuff about hope and resilience.
But it is conditional, meaningif they never came back that's a
condition.
They have to attend therapy,that's a real one.
They have to pay a fee, inwhatever variety, that's a real
(18:25):
one.
I have to be licensed in thatstate.
So again, I don't mean to play,you know semantics, but it is
conditional in my understandingyes, no, that definitely makes
sense.
Christina McKelvy (18:38):
Um, so it does make sense to like go back
to the term respect.
You know, respecting thepatient, respecting the
individual and, like you said,it's a case-by case basis.
Where, as far as like, where doyou draw that line?
Max Kusovitky (18:50):
You know, like it makes sense, why it would be
dependent on individual all theintermissing, you know, mutually
(19:12):
destructive warfare in thefield of mental health right now
that I get very up in armsabout that motivated me to join
this podcast, because it oughtnot be there.
You know, I'm not trying to sayone is better than the other.
I'm merely trying to respectthe reality of how these things
emerge.
You know, what gives them lifeand human condition is
incredibly complicated, andthat's what you know.
What gives them life and andhuman condition is incredibly
complicated and it's what youknow.
(19:32):
Your podcast am I allowed tocompliment the host?
But it's admirable because hopeis so much more complicated.
I really, really it means a lotto me personally,
professionally, because it'sit's in my experience.
It's treated again.
It's different than being avirtue.
You know it's like sayingeveryone should be nice or the
(19:53):
golden rule.
You know, biblically there's adifference between the virtue of
being nice versus actuallyputting effort in understanding
somebody, or the effort inhelping somebody, or even an
apology.
It's a great classic andintuitive example.
You could say you're sorry anddo the same behavior over and
over again.
(20:13):
That's the virtue of contritionis not the same thing as, or
the performance of contrition isnot the same thing as, actual
contrition if you don't feel it,and so if you don't experience
hope in the dyad between thepatient and the analyst or
therapist, it can become a realdanger.
I'm not just saying that sothat we get a lot of clicks.
Christina McKelvy (20:35):
No, yeah, I know it can be, and because I
was reading an article I thinkit was in Psychology Today just
a couple days ago and it wasperfect, because I was like, oh,
I'm going to have, you know,this podcast interview about how
you know hope can instillingfalse hope, false expectations
in someone can be detrimentaland it could hinder that
(20:58):
resilience and so again, it goeswith that, that hope and
resilience.
Max Kusovitky (21:01):
It's actually that's, it's that's well, that's
a very valuable point.
I didn't consider consciouslythat's a very valuable point.
I didn't consider consciously.
Um, and what I mean is that thethe virtue of hope, or false
hope, or it being ingratiating,or being super complimentary or
being a you know, a good motherto speak classically to the
(21:23):
patient it's a very good pointcan rob them of their own
resilience.
Because if you're notrespecting the key word maybe
today, besides hope, if you'renot respecting their own
capacity, their own right toself-determination, their own
autonomy or the points of arrestthat preclude autonomy, in the
topography of their own mind,they might never reach a place
(21:46):
of what I would call endogenous,self-generated or internally
generated hope.
And if that's absent and I'mthe one fueling it and you
depend on me to give it to youwe would call that an enactment
and that means you need bettersupervision or better training.
I don't know if that shouldstay.
You might need to edit that out.
(22:08):
I'll research that, and ifotherwise, then you're robbing
the person of their vitality.
It's sort of the irony of againthis conversation to me again
means so much and I think whatyou're doing is so powerful in
(22:34):
the sense that it is thatrespect for the person's
humanity that seems to have beenlost in this alphabet soup of
therapy or in the focus onsymptomatology.
Eradicating symptoms is not inand of itself the goal, right,
the goal if there is a goal wewouldn't necessarily use that
word if I could speak for thewhole field, which is silly, I
can't Is resilience and hopethat's internally generated, or
(22:55):
authenticity, striving towardsone's own capacity, utmost
capacity, karen Horei would sayit's a moral obligation, a moral
duty for the person to be ableto become themselves.
Moral obligation, a moral dutyfor the person to be able to
become themselves.
Many analysts, or many, not justanalysts, have said that
(23:16):
philosophers and others, andhope again, can be one of those
engines, truly that facilitatesdevelopment.
But if it's again treated as inand of itself a panacea of
sorts, a false cure, you know,without the respect it deserves
and instead kind of almostforced down somebody's throat in
service of alleviating maybe myanxiety or my worries of being
(23:39):
about ineffective andineffective therapist.
I'm absolutely failing thetherapy and the person is not
going to reach what that pointin what I would call is genuine
hope.
Yeah, they become dependent onthe therapist.
(23:59):
Again, I agree with you, butI'm very afraid to speak to that
.
In terms of being respectfulfor other forms of therapy, I
will say that I'll interrupt youthere.
Christina McKelvy (24:07):
I don't think being dependent on the
therapist.
I think that is something a lotof different discipline um
theoretical orientation more andagainst yes, that's true, yes
and analysts are very guilty,please.
Max Kusovitky (24:20):
This is not unique, like like, analysts are
immune.
It's just, I think, thatanalysts can be so obsessive
about trying to understandthings that they that, if
they're modest enough and ifthey've been in enough
supervision and enough personaltherapy, they're not going to
allow that enactment to unfold.
So, yes, dependence on thetherapist is universal, you're
(24:40):
absolutely correct, but it'sabout interpreting it so as not
to let it become acted outwithout realization, without
awareness.
That's the big problem.
And so if dependence to usethat example becomes part of the
frame of the work, then maybethe argument I would make in
service of the conversationtoday is that hope can't be had
(25:01):
by the person, because I'mharboring the hope that they
themselves need to harbor.
And when we spoke for the firsttime prior to this recording,
that metaphor meant a lot to me.
It was something you and I cameup with together.
In the sense of ferrying hopeis incredibly, incredibly
powerful, and if you again forcefeed it and ferry that hope
(25:28):
into the patient's harbor tooearly, they could run right,
because that hope can be theirhopelessness, can be a defense
against all sorts of potentialgrowth.
Similarly, if I hold on to itmyself and I'm harboring the
hope, all of it.
On one hand, I could be theauxiliary source of hope, which
is certainly constructive or canbe, but it also can be very
(25:52):
defensive on my side.
I don't want to give it to you,I don't think you're ready for
it.
Maybe I'm not realizing that.
I'm like a mother or father whonever provided it.
Who knows?
But that is another avenue oranother ocean to cross.
That very much plays a role inhow hope is.
I use the phrase before a verb.
(26:14):
I currently I can't think of abetter phrase.
It's actionable, it's a verb,it's alive, it's dynamic.
Christina McKelvy (26:20):
Maybe it's a better word yeah, it's dynamic,
it's ever-changing and it'sneeded and and I apologize to
you I have background noise.
I'm going to try and edit thatout, but I apologize if it's
distracting to any of mylisteners, but there's
construction going on across thestreet I can't, I can't, I
can't hear it oh, yay, yay, um,you know hope and resilience.
(26:45):
As you were speaking, I was Ithinking like what would come
first?
What would be needed?
Resilience to instill the hopeor hope to facilitate resilience
, and how, as a practitioner,can you encourage that?
Max Kusovitky (27:02):
That's, you're blowing my mind.
I've never thought of the orderof operations or the
permutation or combination ofhope versus resilience Is there.
Can I take a moment to think?
Christina McKelvy (27:15):
Yes, you can.
Max Kusovitky (27:16):
Can I phone a friend?
Christina McKelvy (27:18):
Sure go ahead , I think resilience comes from
hope.
Max Kusovitky (27:24):
I don't know if there is.
Don't know if there is, I haveto think more clearly about it.
But my knee-jerk reaction or myoff-the-cuff would just be to
say they go hand in hand.
Resilience is distinct fromhope, in my understanding, in
that it's a capacity to manageand tolerate and survive what
(27:52):
let's call negative experience,failure, pain, oppression, you
know, of any kind.
I think of depression,suppression, repression,
oppression, compression.
These forces maybe top downmore than bottom up, although
inhibition bottom up can be abig part of that.
That, to me, is more in thevein of resilience being again
(28:14):
actionable and a hedging againstit or a fight against it.
Hope, it's a really goodquestion.
I have not thought of it.
Hope, to me, is more a pursuitforward-facing.
I see hope as more within therealm of fantasy of an inner
working model that providessomebody animation of their life
(28:35):
, motivation in their life,mobilization of their forces.
Resilience to me seems more atbottom, if that makes sense in
the way that I can conceptualizeit.
You need resilience and hope,and resilience is maybe what
keeps you standing up in theface of what's the word?
(28:56):
The face of opposition, or theface of the combatant, or the
face of failure and hope is whatallows you to put one foot in
front of the other in pursuit ofyour own goals, dreams,
development and authenticity.
Christina McKelvy (29:25):
Hope are the shoes and resilience is like the
arm, like the shield orsomething.
Max Kusovitky (29:50):
Yeah, yeah, resilience is the internal
capacity to face, manage,tolerate Again a lot of words
come to mind Forces that goagainst the self.
Maybe, and hope is the thingthat keeps you going to hope is
that you need resilience tomaybe.
So maybe there is an answer,maybe resilience is what is what
undergirds hope, if you can, ifI see it vertically in the
brain or in the mind, and hopeis what you know helps you
pursue.
But without, without resilience, it seems like hope would
flounder, it would fall, andresilience without hope would
(30:13):
allow you to survive but notlive.
Christina McKelvy (30:17):
Like you said , they're interconnected.
Max Kusovitky (30:20):
Yeah, they seem very mutually dependent in a
constructive way.
Yes, way?
Christina McKelvy (30:33):
yes, and how can a practice practitioner um,
especially in the work that youdo, help someone towards the you
know resilience and hope?
Max Kusovitky (30:39):
that's another big question.
Um, you have to buy my book.
I don't have a book.
Um, I was like, really I wish,um, you have to attend my class
on the weekends.
It's five thousand dollars andthey go hand in hand.
But I guess, to speak as simplyas possible, the nurturing or
(31:02):
cultivation of resilience andyou're teaching your questions
are very apt because you're sortof reteaching me things I
haven't thought about asexplicitly like back to the king
of england, example, becauseshifting somebody's fantasy in
(31:22):
service of a gravitational pull,you know, if there was a planet
outside of them that moves themtowards a realistic goal, that
is, hope, and that that thatevolution from a hope that is
congruent with who they actuallyare and authentic and genuine
and sort of self-sustaining, isnot the same thing as somebody
who might lack resilience.
Let's say, life really has beatthem down.
(31:44):
Trauma is a real thing and eventhough nowadays it seems
extremely common, it's used verylightly.
The word has a lot of meaningpsychodynamically, and so if
someone has unfortunatelysuffered a prolific amount of
trauma, there might not beresilience to get them into a
(32:04):
position of, let's say,uprightness to even combat their
own inner conflicts or theirown interpersonal strivings or
their own pain and socultivating.
That is a different approach.
They go hand in hand.
They could be in the samesession, as an example, with the
same patient, with the same arcin the work, but one to me
(32:26):
feels as though they're bothhaving to be self-sustained and
self-generated.
But resilience might be more,let's say, I think in my
experience, anecdotally, or inmy cases in the history of my
practice, resilience issomething almost, like we said,
a prerequisite, because if theperson is in pursuit of some
(32:51):
goal but they don't have thecapacity to tolerate rejection
very simple example, complicatedbut simple in in the language
they might not ever pursue it,but the reason they can't
tolerate rejection can beincredibly complicated.
Another example would be thatif that goal that involves
rejection, they need to be aHollywood Oscar winning director
(33:14):
or something.
If that goal itself is false ora defense against an absence of
other wishes of accolade,affection and admiration, then
that has to be interpreted andunderstood as well.
Do with it seems more to dowith depression, uh, more to do
(33:44):
with a compression of forceagainst the self and the absence
of hope although there can bedepressing, of course seems to
do with the absence of meaningand purpose.
Back to sort of what I do sothen how?
okay okay, I'm just I'm gonnathink about that I hope that I
apologize if that was didn'tmake sense, because I'm
(34:04):
improvising no, it did, it did.
Christina McKelvy (34:07):
And some, you know, I was thinking like well,
how can you see?
I don't know if you change isthe right um words, but how can
their internal?
So, if they have this falsehope, this, you know, fabricated
self as opposed to theirauthentic self, how can you?
How?
(34:27):
What does one shift someone'spsyche to go from fabricated
self to authentic self?
Like you are not going to bethe king of England, but maybe
you can do this instead.
Max Kusovitky (34:42):
Right, I mean, I mean you, you, you kind of hit
the nail on the head it's, it's,it's.
It's not that easy.
I I again, not to becontroversial, I don't think
it'd be done in one session.
But, uh, what you're doing isyou're, you're converting, yes,
you're, you're transforming,you're converting, you're
transmutating, whatever word youwould use, and that process,
(35:03):
although held within the frameof the treatment by the
therapist or analyst, it has tobe done by the individual.
So for them to, we would usethe word grief.
Right, all therapy is griefwork, and I stand on that, I
would fight on my mountaintopfor that.
(35:24):
Because you're grievingfantasies all the time, You're
grieving old ways of being,you're mourning dynamics that
maybe you grew up with ordynamics that meant so much to
you to make room for your ownauthenticity or development, if
we don't know ourselves so fully, which is the case for all of
us, because we contain manyminds and the unconscious is
real, and so making that change,like you're saying, is very
(35:48):
difficult and very challenging,because to go from A to B, you
have to grieve A, you also haveto build a bridge to B, you also
have to have the courage to goto B.
Talk about resilience and thenbe itself, and it's in its hope
that it provides.
It also has to be authentic orcongruent or have the sort of
(36:09):
capacity to map onto what theperson's actually capable of.
So you were about to say anexample with the King of England
and that could be anexaggerated fantasy.
It could be a sublimation of awish, a reaction formation, if
everybody listeners remember egodefenses.
But what matters isn't thejargon.
What matters is that maybethat's a pursuit of wanting just
(36:30):
to feel powerful and in realitythey have this capacity to feel
powerful in pursuit of theirown let's say, I don't know an
academic career and they becomea professor and they're
well-respected in their field ofgeology or anthropology.
But it has nothing to do withthe king.
Maybe it would be more akin tohistory because king of England
(36:50):
and the United States, but theirking of England fantasy is all
about hedging against feelingsof inferiority or feelings of
castration, classically speaking, feelings of just being
ineffective, to speak plainly,and getting them into a position
where they can tolerate areality.
(37:11):
That not only is the fantasymeaningful and not only are we
respecting it and not only didit provide you hope, but we're
going to use all those variablesin terms of helping you to see
what's really going on in thetotality or in the tapestry of
your whole mind, which includesthe parts that you don't know
yet, and people get very anxious.
Christina McKelvy (37:31):
The parts you do not know yet.
Max Kusovitky (37:35):
We don't know.
I mean, this has beensubstantiated in in the
neuroscience, which is a fancyway to support my biases, but it
is true nonetheless that thebrain is organized in a way.
You know, if you study theoriesof what gives rise to
consciousness or why the lightsare on at all in the first place
.
Consciousness is not thetotality of you know, our
(37:55):
experience right right which isjust to say, depending on what
theory you want to look at, it'slike a lighthouse, and the way
the light is focused is whatwe're paying attention to, but
there could be a million thingsgoing on in the background, and
who's in charge of where thelight is pointing on the ocean
(38:17):
and on which ship, and also theaperture of the light, when it's
opening and closing, and howfocused is it.
So the classic examples oflearning and unlearning and
autonomic nervous system stuff,and I could keep going, but the
point being is you don't thinkabout your heart beating, you
don't think about your diaphragmexpanding and contracting, you
don't think about putting onefoot in front of the other.
(38:38):
That's an unconscious process,but to a 10-month-old or
13-month-old it's very conscious.
Christina McKelvy (38:45):
Right.
Max Kusovitky (38:45):
Once it's learned this is again all these
principles in theneuropsychoanalytic stuff it
becomes integrated and so it nolonger is available to awareness
.
A lot of the work we do is Iwouldn't use the word unlearning
because it sounds kind of yuckybut it is bringing things into
awareness that haven't been forsome time.
(39:06):
So the King of England fantasyis a good one, where maybe
that's all they think about.
But the thing that's fueling it, or the many variables I should
say that are fueling it andfueling their hope, might be
something they haven't felt,just like the heartbeat the
lungs are walking in in alifetime, not since they were a
kid or not, since they were ateenager or not since their
(39:28):
first job or first kiss.
It's this, is that's what hasto be appreciated.
You know, memory is not alwaysconscious, but when you wake up
(39:51):
all your memory comes back.
Christina McKelvy (39:53):
Every morning , hopefully yes, yes, hopefully
there.
So it's yeah, it's bringingthat to the that to the
forefront, making it consciousand even just like kind of
unpacking and bringing up, like,well, maybe this individual
that wanted to be the king ofengland or wants to be the king
of england also wasn't heard,didn't feel heard, didn't feel
(40:15):
seen when they're a child, likewhatever it could be.
Yeah, like again, I justpicture it's like a tree, like
it's the root, you know, andyeah, I mean, there's the.
Max Kusovitky (40:24):
You know young, I attended a freudian institute
I'm young and no but but youngwould say that I, I adore, I
truly love, uh, and passionateabout that young's quote about
for the tree to reach to theheavens it has to root itself in
hell.
And what he's speaking to isthe reality of not only what he
(40:49):
called the shadow, but thereality that to get to know the
self fully is to get to know theparts that we don't want to.
So the fantasy back to hope,hope, hope can be prophylactic.
I am just.
All I am is hope.
I'm a hopeful person and I'moptimistic, and I'm even maybe
mawkish, or I'm cloyingly niceto people.
(41:11):
Hope, hope, hope.
And I don't think you have tobe a psychoanalyst to know where
there's the sun, there's themoon, and that person might be
defending against a prolificamount of anger, rage, rejection
, sadism, pain and suffering,and I have the utmost compassion
and sympathy for thatpersonality.
But nonetheless it wouldbenefit to integrate those
(41:33):
things and appreciate that thatperson is much more complicated
than their eternal optimism orhope leads on yeah, so this is
how hope can be dangerous or, tosoften it, unhelpful yeah, it
could be, uh, it could be anobstacle, an obstacle
(41:55):
yeah, sure, yeah, absolutely itcan be.
I've experienced itprofessionally.
Uh, we spoke to flight intohealth in the first, in our
first interview and, uh, theflight into health is a fairly
common I don't knowstatistically how common, but
it's the.
I found somebody, a therapist,who understands me, I feel seen,
(42:18):
I feel I feel heard.
These are constructive things.
We want that in the frame, butby those variables alone I feel
better.
And then that person then saysthat it's session eight or
session 15 and they leavebecause they have flown into
this position of health, whichyou could call it a flight into
hope.
Maybe you should, and thatwould be why this episode goes
(42:39):
viral.
But it's the same difference inthat it's an idealization of
the process and a devaluation ofwhat the work, the heavy
lifting truly actually entails.
And so somebody might fly intothat position really quickly, in
a sort of simulation of hopeand resilience.
(43:02):
I feel so much better, I feelso strong.
This person understands me.
You've helped me so much, drMax.
You know, see you later.
And that happens sometimes.
Christina McKelvy (43:12):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, flight into health.
Yeah, flight into health.
Max Kusovitky (43:27):
And that's that false hope or that sense of hope
that may not be based in anydepth right.
Christina McKelvy (43:31):
It might not be grounded grounded themselves.
Max Kusovitky (43:32):
yes, yeah, and.
And the falseness gets trickybecause so much of our
perception involves falsehoods.
You know, you see the world,like Gandhi said right you see
the world not as it is, but asyou are, and so a lot of our
percepts, our frames ofreference and perspectives can
(43:52):
be false-ish.
So, you know, false hope alsogets controversial if you were
to be really nitty gritty aboutit or real stickler.
Because sometimes a false hopeyes, it's not grounded in the
person's actual capacities andauthenticities is providing them
(44:15):
a buttress of sorts to keepthem upright, and that dynamic
can be invaluable to somebody,let's say, who's lacked
resilience or has been through alot of struggle in life.
Christina McKelvy (44:29):
Again, it goes back to it's very resilient
and hope is very interconnectedand that leads to healing.
Well, max, I feel like we cankeep talking for another hour
and I remember, like when wefirst met, I kept I was like, oh
my goodness, I'm learning somuch and there's just so much to
unpack.
So I really appreciate that youcame on to you know the podcast
(44:51):
to give a different perspectiveabout hope and, with that being
said, I'd like to end mypodcast with the same question
for everybody what brings youhope?
Max Kusovitky (45:02):
What brings me hope Just in general, you're
asking.
But what brings me hope isfighting this fight.
I don't want to sound so clichebut it's true.
What brings me hope is the goodfight for meaningful therapy.
You know, you could have peoplein my personal life know that,
(45:25):
hopefully professionally too.
And it brings me hope to seepeople in the field that are
really fighting, not againsteach other but fighting for.
You know the sort of helpingprofession, of what it is to be
a psychotherapist, irrespectiveof modality, but to robustly,
(45:46):
actually and long-lastingly helpa person.
It matters so much more than Ithink people realize in our
world right now.
People speak to the virtueright To bring that example
again, bring it back to thatwhere, yeah, mental health,
mental health, mental health,mental health is mental health.
That word has becomemeaningless and people are not
(46:07):
appreciative of the effort, theboots on the ground effort it
takes for the everyday therapistto do this work, especially if
they lack the resources or don'tknow things that they don't
know.
And what brings me hope is thepeople I admire in the field
that are prolific with this andlecture and teach and so on and
(46:33):
talk about how to make therapyas effective and meaningful and
powerful and hopeful as it, asit ought to be.
The science of subjectivity,the science of psychology is
real, it's rigorous yeah, andit's needed, especially nowadays
it's needed more than ever.
(46:54):
I mean, you don't need to bringin this the really saddening
statistics about.
I don't want to say all themetrics that they use, but we
all know what I'm implying whenit comes to different versions
of suffering, individual family,country, you name it.
It's bad, it's a bad situation.
Christina McKelvy (47:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Max Kusovitky (47:16):
And so thank you , you know, for the work you're
doing, the work all of our peersare doing, and instilling that
hope teaching resilience so thatpeople can heal, so and I would
say, teaching respecting thereality that a person, an
individual, has the capacity toheal and has authentic elements
(47:42):
to their own vitality.
Yeah, it's like that, it'salmost that simple.
Each person this isn't, likeyou know, sesame Street talking
about your special.
That's not what I mean.
It's not a virtue, it's areality that people have this
capacity.
It's just hard work to getthere.
Christina McKelvy (48:00):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, hard, deep, meaningfulwork so well.
Thank you for being on here anddefinitely happy back.
Max Kusovitky (48:09):
Thank you for having me.
Of course it means a lot.
Am I allowed to say this was myfirst podcast?
Christina McKelvy (48:15):
If you want to.
Max Kusovitky (48:16):
I do, I do.
This is my first time beinginterviewed formally.
I really appreciate yougambling on me.
It means a lot.
It really does.
Christina McKelvy (48:25):
Oh no, it was amazing, it was fun and, like I
said, you can come back foryour second podcast interview.
Max Kusovitky (48:31):
Awesome.
Christina McKelvy (48:32):
Or maybe it'll be your 100th when I have
you back on who knows?
Yeah, and I'll have informationin the show notes if for
whatever you want to share.
But thank you again for beinghere and I hope everyone has a
wonderful day.
Welcome to Hopology stories of hope,
healing and resilience.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvey.
Today we're going to bespeaking with Dr Kuzovitsky.
He's a psychoanalyst and he'sresearched different ways that
hope can bring meaning to people.
How are you?
Max Kusovitky (00:15):
I'm okay.
I'm excited to be here.
Christina McKelvy (00:19):
Excited too.
Why don't you introduceyourself for us?
Max Kusovitky (00:23):
Sure, so I'm Dr Kuzovitsky, but obviously Max is
fine.
I'm a psychoanalyst practicingin New York, new Jersey
tri-state area, and I guess whatbrought me here involved, as we
previously discussed, is therelationship to hope and how it
plays out in the frame ofpsychodynamic therapy or
(00:44):
psychoanalytic therapy or justmeaningful therapy, or whatever
people prefer to call it.
And I felt particularlymotivated to speak to and attend
to how complicated it is, andespecially when hope as a virtue
is not the same thing as hopeas it's played out in the
therapeutic dynamic or thetherapeutic frame, and it
(01:07):
deserves to be understood in amuch more meaningful way.
It's complicated, it certainlycan be a danger and it certainly
can be a wonderful, wonderfulthing that fuels something like
resilience in a person.
Christina McKelvy (01:23):
It can be a danger.
I want to focus on that in aminute but before we do, can you
lay out the framework a littlebit on psychodynamic,
psychoanalyst framework, becauseI know some of our listeners
might be like oh, I'm familiarwith CBT or EMDR, all these
different types of therapy.
It's super saturated.
Max Kusovitky (01:42):
So if you want to explain a little bit, yes,
the alphabet soup ofcontemporary therapy, right,
it's super saturated.
So, if you want to explain alittle bit, yes, the alphabet
soup of contemporary Right.
So so much.
So I I'm standing on theshoulders of giants who have
said this better than I can, butessentially, what depth therapy
is?
Psychodynamic therapy isbringing awareness where it
(02:03):
hasn't been before, bringingconsciousness where it hasn't
been before, saying the quietparts aloud, essentially
introspecting in a robust sense,that is to say, an appreciation
of the unconscious landscape,which certainly exists.
And by getting to knowourselves much more fully, by
experiencing things that wemight avoid experiencing through
(02:25):
the nature of ego defenses, asit's called, or just keeping
them out of awareness, we canfacilitate a real and actual
healing resolution, as we wouldcall it in the sense of inner
conflict that might not be feltprior to entering into a
treatment like that.
So a symptom, to speak evenmore simply, is not separate
(02:46):
from the self.
A symptom is part of theanatomy of one's own psychology.
The metaphor often used is thefever.
The fever can be caused by amultitude of pathologies and you
could take Tylenol to get ridof the fever, but that doesn't
address, maybe, the infection.
Or you can take Tylenol to getrid of the fever, but that
(03:07):
doesn't address, maybe, theinfection.
Or you can take anothermedication that is analgesic and
neutralizes the pain, but thepain returns and the
inflammation returns, maybesometimes with a vengeance
therapy or in-depth therapy inservice of understanding
themselves, which is eventuallywhat can give rise to not only
(03:27):
hope.
Uh pun maybe not pun intended,but intended to say uh what
gives rise to the opportunity toheal that they might not have
had otherwise or prior okay, itsounds like the root, getting to
the root of the issue, asopposed to putting a band-aid on
into that?
yes, that is, that is commonlyused my anxiety my anxiety,
(03:50):
sometimes, as people, you know,I want to stay as diplomatic as
possible.
I don't want to offend otherforms of therapy, but yes, we,
we, I.
I tend to agree with that inthat the genesis or origination
of so many of what we experienceas symptoms in today's world,
or what the DSM organizes assymptoms, but without causality
(04:12):
or etiology, it's reallyimportant.
Right, the symptoms existanxiety, depression, what
happens, somatic issues and soon but if we don't dignify the
reality of our own psychologyand saying that this is
something that can actuallygenerate suffering or a point of
suffering, we do our ownhumanity a really huge
(04:33):
disservice, and I don't thinkany of that is an exaggeration.
Christina McKelvy (04:38):
Yeah, it's like the point of suffering.
This is like the point ofsuffering, this is like the like
, like the foundation almost,and it's more than because when
people hear psycho, analytic,analytic theory, I am having a
hard time speaking today.
Probably shouldn't have hadthat whole big cup of coffee
before.
But you know, people hear aboutlike they think traditional
(04:59):
therapy, freud, young thingslike that.
Yes, the common what we say.
Max Kusovitky (05:04):
Again, you're teeing me up for some wonderful
classical refrains we use.
They argue against the strawman from the horse and buggy era
.
So they say psychoanalysis isthe same thing that you know.
Hysteria is a good example ofthe wandering womb, or something
.
And as if, in my trainingstarting in the 2010s, as if
(05:26):
that's what I was taught, eventhough that was something said,
obviously, in 18, I don'tremember 80s or 90s, and yet
it's true.
People argue as if nothing'schanged in 110 years.
But if the example we use ascontrast or to confront, that is
, people aren't bloodlettinganymore, we don't argue against
that.
People aren't talking about thefour humors anymore, you don't
(05:46):
argue against that.
People aren't talking about thefour humors anymore.
People aren't arguing, arguingagainst that.
But when it comes to psychologyand you say you're a
psychoanalyst, people think, yes, that you're lying down on a
couch and you know, seven timesa week and giving away your,
your child's college tuition topay me so I could build my pool,
and it's just to pay me so Icould build my pool, and a lot
of it is incredibly untrue andunfair.
(06:06):
But it goes with the territoryof doing the real work, as you
were saying, of what gives riseto hope and meaning in
somebody's life.
It's a very seriousresponsibility.
Christina McKelvy (06:17):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm yeah yeah, and I think
there's a lot of.
I don't know if animosity isthe right word.
That's not the right word, butyou know, maybe I'll wall up
with it just because of Freud.
Max Kusovitky (06:29):
It's the right word, okay.
Christina McKelvy (06:31):
It's the right word, but you know I'm a
therapist and a lot of theadults I work with I always go
back to birth to five.
You know we're going to do somebirth to five work, early
childhood work.
We're going to look at whathappened to you in the womb,
we're going to look at you knowum, the generational patterns
with your parents and we'regoing to look at maybe some of
(06:51):
these core beliefs is cbt, but Ifeel like you can't get away
from doing psychodynamic work,even if you are aligned with
other theoretical orientations.
So I think it's, it's afoundation, is my belief yeah,
we.
Max Kusovitky (07:03):
We would say that the reinvention of the
wheel has been tried over andover the last 140, 130 years,
and human psychology has notchanged since the species began
about 200,000 years ago.
It's still the same, the drives, what motivates us, animates us
, mobilizes us, the hierarchy ofsystems in the brain, if you
(07:26):
want to bring in theneuroscience stuff, it hasn't
changed.
And so to say that affect isn'tfueling thought in this
topography of the brain to me,someone like me, is to sort of
fit, is to sort of lie.
And so we have to appreciatethat these systems work in an
emergent way, in a systematicway, in that psychoanalysis or
(07:51):
just call it meaningful,whatever meaningful therapy,
depth therapy appreciates thereality of how the brain and
mind are super deemed or mappedonto each other.
Or just say how the heart, soul, spirit, mind and brain are
mapped onto each other.
Again we.
Or just say how the heart, soul, spirit, mind and brain are
mapped onto each other.
Again, we're trying to be asinclusive as possible.
It ought not be a civil war.
Christina McKelvy (08:14):
Civil war within the fields.
But yes, you know, the heart,soul, brain, mind all, like you
said, are mapped onto each other.
So I think that leads us tosomething you said at the
beginning that hope can bedangerous, and so my podcast is
called Hopeology.
I love hearing stories abouthope, healing and resilience,
(08:34):
but I think I'm guessing whereyou're going to go with it.
So I'm actually really excitedto hear your perspective on what
you mean by how hope can bedangerous.
So let's delve more into that.
Max Kusovitky (08:48):
Sure, so to provide, I guess, some
background and context.
Essentially what?
Although it's a nice soundbite,it's very pithy.
Christina McKelvy (09:00):
I know I was just thinking not to laugh.
Max Kusovitky (09:04):
It's true, it's a good soundbite, We'll get some
clicks.
Hope can be dangerous insofaras who's harboring the hope,
who's generating the hope, who'sferrying the hope back and
forth in the therapeuticrelationship or frame.
(09:25):
And, of course, what hope means?
Let's get back to theindividual, what hope means to
the patient or the person.
And hope throughout our livesplays different roles.
You know the inability toconstruct hope I think Raoul May
said this, I could be wrong isthe genesis of depression.
I mean, you can't construct afuture plan.
You know the absence of hope inpeople's lives, and hopelessness
and its symmetry to despair hasbeen talked about by Mitchell,
(09:47):
and other say that if it'sutilized defensively which is
(10:07):
maybe a controversial statement,but it can be utilized as a
preventative, prophylactic, amembrane of sorts, it can get in
the way of somebody's actualstrivings towards potential.
And so what that means is thatspeak kind of more, more plainly
is that hope can be somethingsomeone holds onto, but it can
be based, founded upon fantasythat is incongruent with reality
(10:32):
.
So the hope can be generated ororiginated within the mind,
spirit, the heart as we weretalking about, but it might not
be congruent or mapped onto apotential reality for that
individual.
So if my hope let's speak verysimply if my hope was to be the
king of England and then I foundout that I was born in the
United States, or I denied adefense that I was born in the
(10:54):
United States, that could bequite painful and that also can
produce real symptomatology.
I might get very depressed, Imight lose my spark or vitality
or resilience in life, and sohope is very different as a verb
or as a an actionable conceptthan it is as a virtue
(11:23):
no-transcript.
Christina McKelvy (11:25):
So to summarize it sound what you're
talking about is when someonehas this false sense of hope,
unrealistic expectations andrealistic hope, like you
mentioned.
If it's my hope to be the kingof england, but I was born in
america and not even from youknow the royal family, then
that's gonna which I'm not, bythe way yes, disclaimer
everybody I am not speaking tothe royal family, but that would
(11:46):
be cool if you know of anyonewill be be cool.
What brings you guys is hope.
No, yeah, so it's like settingup like that could be dangerous
if we go back to that Right.
Max Kusovitky (11:59):
And even the phrase, you know, can be quite
controversial.
Again, I'm sticking withdiplomacy as best I can, as best
I can.
Realistic versus unrealistic canbe a controversial because,
depending on the person'spersonality, organization or
structure or realm of wherethey're organized to speak to
dynamic principles and neuroticand a borderland or psychotic,
(12:20):
the realistic hope might be thatthey become King of England,
president of the United States,oscar winner, pulitzer Prize
winner of england, president,united states oscar winner, a
poltergeist winner, you name it,and it could.
It can be incredibly intoxicatedand incredibly seductive at the
same time, and this is the hardpart, because the unconscious
could have lots of paradoxes, itcan be very defensive.
(12:42):
So, again, the king of englandexample is so powerful where
that person might need tobelieve that they have the
capacity or potential, or maybethey've been wronged or slighted
by the royal family a funnytopic today and they really
should be the king of England,you know.
And so people have these beliefsystems, which is, again,
(13:03):
belief and hope go hand in hand,and so they can very strongly
believe in a hope that might notbe congruent, we would say,
with who they actually are.
There's a big differencebetween authenticity and a sort
of fabricated sense of self or afalse self or, you know, an
(13:23):
image.
People might say as well.
Christina McKelvy (13:25):
Okay.
So where do you draw the linebetween okay, this false sense
of hope is needed for thisindividual at this moment, to
maybe we need to kind of delveinto this more and help this
individual know.
Well, this is not reallyrealistic.
(13:46):
Where do you draw that line?
Max Kusovitky (13:48):
you know this is not really realistic, like
where do you draw that line?
So it's a really it's a reallyreally good question.
But the classic answer is not acop out, and I will elaborate
is is it's?
case by case, because you, Ithink, by asking, already
recognize what you're asking,insofar as that hope or fantasy
of hope might be gluing themtogether.
And if I were to rob them ofthat, if I were to surgically
(14:11):
excise it and remove it from theanatomy of their own psychology
, they could genuinely fracture.
That's not any hyperbole,that's not an exaggeration.
So the word we use is tact,which is to say there is an art
and science, a tact to knowingwhen this person is amenable or
available to appraising theirrelationship to that fantasy of
(14:37):
hope.
And let's say it's.
In this case, let's say it'sfalse.
So it's not congruent withtheir way of being or where they
live, and whatever it might be,or their age, or you name it,
and the work of addressing ittakes a certain arc of
understanding.
Let's use a lotto as a classicexample.
I'm going to bet all my moneyand just win lotto eventually,
(15:00):
so I don't have to worry aboutanything.
That can be a fantasy of hope,that can drive somebody.
And if I said first meeting hi,I'm Dr Kuzovitsky, let's get
rid of it.
You came here, you werereferred by your husband or wife
or spouse or parent becauseyou're addicted to the lotto.
I'd probably say it that way,but we have to get rid of it now
(15:21):
.
Christina McKelvy (15:21):
The person would run out of the office,
they'd laugh at me, they'd scoff.
Max Kusovitky (15:26):
And so the work of establishing trust first, and
understanding and empathizingwith the hope again, and
treating the hope as anactionable, you know,
serviceable fuel, almost like agas station you bring to mind in
this conversation, beappreciated as a systemic part
(15:50):
of what's fueling their vitality.
And again, if I were to tellthem, oh, that's all wrong,
there'd be no work to be had.
They would never trust me, theywould never trust their
relationship to their ownperception or they would never
have the wherewithal to see theforest for the trees, let's say,
and start to investigate whatgives rise to that need for that
fantasy of hope, and that's thedanger it has to be treated
(16:11):
with.
I would use the word respect,even if it seems outlandish,
(16:35):
which is a whole otherconversation about treating
somebody who might be more.
Can I use the word psychotic?
I don't know anymore.
We would use the word psychotic, but what I mean is very
alienated from reality, like theking of england fantasy.
My job would not be to convincethem that the hope of becoming
the king of eng is bad orpathological.
My work, in speaking tounderstanding the hope and
(16:56):
liberating resilience, would beto help them understand where
that comes from.
Christina McKelvy (17:02):
Help them gain that insight.
So it's going to Rogeriantheory.
It's unconditional positiveregard, meeting them where
they're at yes, it gets tricky.
Max Kusovitky (17:15):
Unconditional gets very that's.
I don't know how many hours youhave today, but that that's a
tricky concept throwing thingsat you.
I don't mean to no no, I'm, I'm,I'm, I would.
I would love to talk about it.
I'll'll talk in Blue Streakabout it.
But there is certainly, yes,positivity, affection, but it's
couched within the frame and inmy point of view and take it
(17:39):
with a bowl of salt there'splenty of people who disagree
with me it is absolutelyconditional and it's conditional
in the sense that it has to bewithin the frame.
Now someone could say I'mmisconceptualizing unconditional
positive art and I'm no expertin Roger's work.
But in my understanding thatpositivity is more.
I would just translate it andsay the affection and respect
(18:03):
and dignification if that's aword of the patient's psychology
is where my investment goes.
My emotional investment goes inthe work, including all the
stuff about hope and resilience.
But it is conditional, meaningif they never came back that's a
condition.
They have to attend therapy,that's a real one.
They have to pay a fee, inwhatever variety, that's a real
(18:25):
one.
I have to be licensed in thatstate.
So again, I don't mean to play,you know semantics, but it is
conditional in my understandingyes, no, that definitely makes
sense.
Christina McKelvy (18:38):
Um, so it does make sense to like go back
to the term respect.
You know, respecting thepatient, respecting the
individual and, like you said,it's a case-by case basis.
Where, as far as like, where doyou draw that line?
Max Kusovitky (18:50):
You know, like it makes sense, why it would be
dependent on individual all theintermissing, you know, mutually
(19:12):
destructive warfare in thefield of mental health right now
that I get very up in armsabout that motivated me to join
this podcast, because it oughtnot be there.
You know, I'm not trying to sayone is better than the other.
I'm merely trying to respectthe reality of how these things
emerge.
You know, what gives them lifeand human condition is
incredibly complicated, andthat's what you know.
What gives them life and andhuman condition is incredibly
complicated and it's what youknow.
(19:32):
Your podcast am I allowed tocompliment the host?
But it's admirable because hopeis so much more complicated.
I really, really it means a lotto me personally,
professionally, because it'sit's in my experience.
It's treated again.
It's different than being avirtue.
You know it's like sayingeveryone should be nice or the
(19:53):
golden rule.
You know, biblically there's adifference between the virtue of
being nice versus actuallyputting effort in understanding
somebody, or the effort inhelping somebody, or even an
apology.
It's a great classic andintuitive example.
You could say you're sorry anddo the same behavior over and
over again.
(20:13):
That's the virtue of contritionis not the same thing as, or
the performance of contrition isnot the same thing as, actual
contrition if you don't feel it,and so if you don't experience
hope in the dyad between thepatient and the analyst or
therapist, it can become a realdanger.
I'm not just saying that sothat we get a lot of clicks.
Christina McKelvy (20:35):
No, yeah, I know it can be, and because I
was reading an article I thinkit was in Psychology Today just
a couple days ago and it wasperfect, because I was like, oh,
I'm going to have, you know,this podcast interview about how
you know hope can instillingfalse hope, false expectations
in someone can be detrimentaland it could hinder that
(20:58):
resilience and so again, it goeswith that, that hope and
resilience.
Max Kusovitky (21:01):
It's actually that's, it's that's well, that's
a very valuable point.
I didn't consider consciouslythat's a very valuable point.
I didn't consider consciously.
Um, and what I mean is that thethe virtue of hope, or false
hope, or it being ingratiating,or being super complimentary or
being a you know, a good motherto speak classically to the
(21:23):
patient it's a very good pointcan rob them of their own
resilience.
Because if you're notrespecting the key word maybe
today, besides hope, if you'renot respecting their own
capacity, their own right toself-determination, their own
autonomy or the points of arrestthat preclude autonomy, in the
topography of their own mind,they might never reach a place
(21:46):
of what I would call endogenous,self-generated or internally
generated hope.
And if that's absent and I'mthe one fueling it and you
depend on me to give it to youwe would call that an enactment
and that means you need bettersupervision or better training.
I don't know if that shouldstay.
You might need to edit that out.
(22:08):
I'll research that, and ifotherwise, then you're robbing
the person of their vitality.
It's sort of the irony of againthis conversation to me again
means so much and I think whatyou're doing is so powerful in
(22:34):
the sense that it is thatrespect for the person's
humanity that seems to have beenlost in this alphabet soup of
therapy or in the focus onsymptomatology.
Eradicating symptoms is not inand of itself the goal, right,
the goal if there is a goal wewouldn't necessarily use that
word if I could speak for thewhole field, which is silly, I
can't Is resilience and hopethat's internally generated, or
(22:55):
authenticity, striving towardsone's own capacity, utmost
capacity, karen Horei would sayit's a moral obligation, a moral
duty for the person to be ableto become themselves.
Moral obligation, a moral dutyfor the person to be able to
become themselves.
Many analysts, or many, not justanalysts, have said that
(23:16):
philosophers and others, andhope again, can be one of those
engines, truly that facilitatesdevelopment.
But if it's again treated as inand of itself a panacea of
sorts, a false cure, you know,without the respect it deserves
and instead kind of almostforced down somebody's throat in
service of alleviating maybe myanxiety or my worries of being
(23:39):
about ineffective andineffective therapist.
I'm absolutely failing thetherapy and the person is not
going to reach what that pointin what I would call is genuine
hope.
Yeah, they become dependent onthe therapist.
(23:59):
Again, I agree with you, butI'm very afraid to speak to that
.
In terms of being respectfulfor other forms of therapy, I
will say that I'll interrupt youthere.
Christina McKelvy (24:07):
I don't think being dependent on the
therapist.
I think that is something a lotof different discipline um
theoretical orientation more andagainst yes, that's true, yes
and analysts are very guilty,please.
Max Kusovitky (24:20):
This is not unique, like like, analysts are
immune.
It's just, I think, thatanalysts can be so obsessive
about trying to understandthings that they that, if
they're modest enough and ifthey've been in enough
supervision and enough personaltherapy, they're not going to
allow that enactment to unfold.
So, yes, dependence on thetherapist is universal, you're
(24:40):
absolutely correct, but it'sabout interpreting it so as not
to let it become acted outwithout realization, without
awareness.
That's the big problem.
And so if dependence to usethat example becomes part of the
frame of the work, then maybethe argument I would make in
service of the conversationtoday is that hope can't be had
(25:01):
by the person, because I'mharboring the hope that they
themselves need to harbor.
And when we spoke for the firsttime prior to this recording,
that metaphor meant a lot to me.
It was something you and I cameup with together.
In the sense of ferrying hopeis incredibly, incredibly
powerful, and if you again forcefeed it and ferry that hope
(25:28):
into the patient's harbor tooearly, they could run right,
because that hope can be theirhopelessness, can be a defense
against all sorts of potentialgrowth.
Similarly, if I hold on to itmyself and I'm harboring the
hope, all of it.
On one hand, I could be theauxiliary source of hope, which
is certainly constructive or canbe, but it also can be very
(25:52):
defensive on my side.
I don't want to give it to you,I don't think you're ready for
it.
Maybe I'm not realizing that.
I'm like a mother or father whonever provided it.
Who knows?
But that is another avenue oranother ocean to cross.
That very much plays a role inhow hope is.
I use the phrase before a verb.
(26:14):
I currently I can't think of abetter phrase.
It's actionable, it's a verb,it's alive, it's dynamic.
Christina McKelvy (26:20):
Maybe it's a better word yeah, it's dynamic,
it's ever-changing and it'sneeded and and I apologize to
you I have background noise.
I'm going to try and edit thatout, but I apologize if it's
distracting to any of mylisteners, but there's
construction going on across thestreet I can't, I can't, I
can't hear it oh, yay, yay, um,you know hope and resilience.
(26:45):
As you were speaking, I was Ithinking like what would come
first?
What would be needed?
Resilience to instill the hopeor hope to facilitate resilience
, and how, as a practitioner,can you encourage that?
Max Kusovitky (27:02):
That's, you're blowing my mind.
I've never thought of the orderof operations or the
permutation or combination ofhope versus resilience Is there.
Can I take a moment to think?
Christina McKelvy (27:15):
Yes, you can.
Max Kusovitky (27:16):
Can I phone a friend?
Christina McKelvy (27:18):
Sure go ahead , I think resilience comes from
hope.
Max Kusovitky (27:24):
I don't know if there is.
Don't know if there is, I haveto think more clearly about it.
But my knee-jerk reaction or myoff-the-cuff would just be to
say they go hand in hand.
Resilience is distinct fromhope, in my understanding, in
that it's a capacity to manageand tolerate and survive what
(27:52):
let's call negative experience,failure, pain, oppression, you
know, of any kind.
I think of depression,suppression, repression,
oppression, compression.
These forces maybe top downmore than bottom up, although
inhibition bottom up can be abig part of that.
That, to me, is more in thevein of resilience being again
(28:14):
actionable and a hedging againstit or a fight against it.
Hope, it's a really goodquestion.
I have not thought of it.
Hope, to me, is more a pursuitforward-facing.
I see hope as more within therealm of fantasy of an inner
working model that providessomebody animation of their life
(28:35):
, motivation in their life,mobilization of their forces.
Resilience to me seems more atbottom, if that makes sense in
the way that I can conceptualizeit.
You need resilience and hope,and resilience is maybe what
keeps you standing up in theface of what's the word?
(28:56):
The face of opposition, or theface of the combatant, or the
face of failure and hope is whatallows you to put one foot in
front of the other in pursuit ofyour own goals, dreams,
development and authenticity.
Christina McKelvy (29:25):
Hope are the shoes and resilience is like the
arm, like the shield orsomething.
Max Kusovitky (29:50):
Yeah, yeah, resilience is the internal
capacity to face, manage,tolerate Again a lot of words
come to mind Forces that goagainst the self.
Maybe, and hope is the thingthat keeps you going to hope is
that you need resilience tomaybe.
So maybe there is an answer,maybe resilience is what is what
undergirds hope, if you can, ifI see it vertically in the
brain or in the mind, and hopeis what you know helps you
pursue.
But without, without resilience, it seems like hope would
flounder, it would fall, andresilience without hope would
(30:13):
allow you to survive but notlive.
Christina McKelvy (30:17):
Like you said , they're interconnected.
Max Kusovitky (30:20):
Yeah, they seem very mutually dependent in a
constructive way.
Yes, way?
Christina McKelvy (30:33):
yes, and how can a practice practitioner um,
especially in the work that youdo, help someone towards the you
know resilience and hope?
Max Kusovitky (30:39):
that's another big question.
Um, you have to buy my book.
I don't have a book.
Um, I was like, really I wish,um, you have to attend my class
on the weekends.
It's five thousand dollars andthey go hand in hand.
But I guess, to speak as simplyas possible, the nurturing or
(31:02):
cultivation of resilience andyou're teaching your questions
are very apt because you're sortof reteaching me things I
haven't thought about asexplicitly like back to the king
of england, example, becauseshifting somebody's fantasy in
(31:22):
service of a gravitational pull,you know, if there was a planet
outside of them that moves themtowards a realistic goal, that
is, hope, and that that thatevolution from a hope that is
congruent with who they actuallyare and authentic and genuine
and sort of self-sustaining, isnot the same thing as somebody
who might lack resilience.
Let's say, life really has beatthem down.
(31:44):
Trauma is a real thing and eventhough nowadays it seems
extremely common, it's used verylightly.
The word has a lot of meaningpsychodynamically, and so if
someone has unfortunatelysuffered a prolific amount of
trauma, there might not beresilience to get them into a
(32:04):
position of, let's say,uprightness to even combat their
own inner conflicts or theirown interpersonal strivings or
their own pain and socultivating.
That is a different approach.
They go hand in hand.
They could be in the samesession, as an example, with the
same patient, with the same arcin the work, but one to me
(32:26):
feels as though they're bothhaving to be self-sustained and
self-generated.
But resilience might be more,let's say, I think in my
experience, anecdotally, or inmy cases in the history of my
practice, resilience issomething almost, like we said,
a prerequisite, because if theperson is in pursuit of some
(32:51):
goal but they don't have thecapacity to tolerate rejection
very simple example, complicatedbut simple in in the language
they might not ever pursue it,but the reason they can't
tolerate rejection can beincredibly complicated.
Another example would be thatif that goal that involves
rejection, they need to be aHollywood Oscar winning director
(33:14):
or something.
If that goal itself is false ora defense against an absence of
other wishes of accolade,affection and admiration, then
that has to be interpreted andunderstood as well.
Do with it seems more to dowith depression, uh, more to do
(33:44):
with a compression of forceagainst the self and the absence
of hope although there can bedepressing, of course seems to
do with the absence of meaningand purpose.
Back to sort of what I do sothen how?
okay okay, I'm just I'm gonnathink about that I hope that I
apologize if that was didn'tmake sense, because I'm
(34:04):
improvising no, it did, it did.
Christina McKelvy (34:07):
And some, you know, I was thinking like well,
how can you see?
I don't know if you change isthe right um words, but how can
their internal?
So, if they have this falsehope, this, you know, fabricated
self as opposed to theirauthentic self, how can you?
How?
(34:27):
What does one shift someone'spsyche to go from fabricated
self to authentic self?
Like you are not going to bethe king of England, but maybe
you can do this instead.
Max Kusovitky (34:42):
Right, I mean, I mean you, you, you kind of hit
the nail on the head it's, it's,it's.
It's not that easy.
I I again, not to becontroversial, I don't think
it'd be done in one session.
But, uh, what you're doing isyou're, you're converting, yes,
you're, you're transforming,you're converting, you're
transmutating, whatever word youwould use, and that process,
(35:03):
although held within the frameof the treatment by the
therapist or analyst, it has tobe done by the individual.
So for them to, we would usethe word grief.
Right, all therapy is griefwork, and I stand on that, I
would fight on my mountaintopfor that.
(35:24):
Because you're grievingfantasies all the time, You're
grieving old ways of being,you're mourning dynamics that
maybe you grew up with ordynamics that meant so much to
you to make room for your ownauthenticity or development, if
we don't know ourselves so fully, which is the case for all of
us, because we contain manyminds and the unconscious is
real, and so making that change,like you're saying, is very
(35:48):
difficult and very challenging,because to go from A to B, you
have to grieve A, you also haveto build a bridge to B, you also
have to have the courage to goto B.
Talk about resilience and thenbe itself, and it's in its hope
that it provides.
It also has to be authentic orcongruent or have the sort of
(36:09):
capacity to map onto what theperson's actually capable of.
So you were about to say anexample with the King of England
and that could be anexaggerated fantasy.
It could be a sublimation of awish, a reaction formation, if
everybody listeners remember egodefenses.
But what matters isn't thejargon.
What matters is that maybethat's a pursuit of wanting just
(36:30):
to feel powerful and in realitythey have this capacity to feel
powerful in pursuit of theirown let's say, I don't know an
academic career and they becomea professor and they're
well-respected in their field ofgeology or anthropology.
But it has nothing to do withthe king.
Maybe it would be more akin tohistory because king of England
(36:50):
and the United States, but theirking of England fantasy is all
about hedging against feelingsof inferiority or feelings of
castration, classically speaking, feelings of just being
ineffective, to speak plainly,and getting them into a position
where they can tolerate areality.
(37:11):
That not only is the fantasymeaningful and not only are we
respecting it and not only didit provide you hope, but we're
going to use all those variablesin terms of helping you to see
what's really going on in thetotality or in the tapestry of
your whole mind, which includesthe parts that you don't know
yet, and people get very anxious.
Christina McKelvy (37:31):
The parts you do not know yet.
Max Kusovitky (37:35):
We don't know.
I mean, this has beensubstantiated in in the
neuroscience, which is a fancyway to support my biases, but it
is true nonetheless that thebrain is organized in a way.
You know, if you study theoriesof what gives rise to
consciousness or why the lightsare on at all in the first place
.
Consciousness is not thetotality of you know, our
(37:55):
experience right right which isjust to say, depending on what
theory you want to look at, it'slike a lighthouse, and the way
the light is focused is whatwe're paying attention to, but
there could be a million thingsgoing on in the background, and
who's in charge of where thelight is pointing on the ocean
(38:17):
and on which ship, and also theaperture of the light, when it's
opening and closing, and howfocused is it.
So the classic examples oflearning and unlearning and
autonomic nervous system stuff,and I could keep going, but the
point being is you don't thinkabout your heart beating, you
don't think about your diaphragmexpanding and contracting, you
don't think about putting onefoot in front of the other.
(38:38):
That's an unconscious process,but to a 10-month-old or
13-month-old it's very conscious.
Christina McKelvy (38:45):
Right.
Max Kusovitky (38:45):
Once it's learned this is again all these
principles in theneuropsychoanalytic stuff it
becomes integrated and so it nolonger is available to awareness
.
A lot of the work we do is Iwouldn't use the word unlearning
because it sounds kind of yuckybut it is bringing things into
awareness that haven't been forsome time.
(39:06):
So the King of England fantasyis a good one, where maybe
that's all they think about.
But the thing that's fueling it, or the many variables I should
say that are fueling it andfueling their hope, might be
something they haven't felt,just like the heartbeat the
lungs are walking in in alifetime, not since they were a
kid or not, since they were ateenager or not since their
(39:28):
first job or first kiss.
It's this, is that's what hasto be appreciated.
You know, memory is not alwaysconscious, but when you wake up
(39:51):
all your memory comes back.
Christina McKelvy (39:53):
Every morning , hopefully yes, yes, hopefully
there.
So it's yeah, it's bringingthat to the that to the
forefront, making it consciousand even just like kind of
unpacking and bringing up, like,well, maybe this individual
that wanted to be the king ofengland or wants to be the king
of england also wasn't heard,didn't feel heard, didn't feel
(40:15):
seen when they're a child, likewhatever it could be.
Yeah, like again, I justpicture it's like a tree, like
it's the root, you know, andyeah, I mean, there's the.
Max Kusovitky (40:24):
You know young, I attended a freudian institute
I'm young and no but but youngwould say that I, I adore, I
truly love, uh, and passionateabout that young's quote about
for the tree to reach to theheavens it has to root itself in
hell.
And what he's speaking to isthe reality of not only what he
(40:49):
called the shadow, but thereality that to get to know the
self fully is to get to know theparts that we don't want to.
So the fantasy back to hope,hope, hope can be prophylactic.
I am just.
All I am is hope.
I'm a hopeful person and I'moptimistic, and I'm even maybe
mawkish, or I'm cloyingly niceto people.
(41:11):
Hope, hope, hope.
And I don't think you have tobe a psychoanalyst to know where
there's the sun, there's themoon, and that person might be
defending against a prolificamount of anger, rage, rejection
, sadism, pain and suffering,and I have the utmost compassion
and sympathy for thatpersonality.
But nonetheless it wouldbenefit to integrate those
(41:33):
things and appreciate that thatperson is much more complicated
than their eternal optimism orhope leads on yeah, so this is
how hope can be dangerous or, tosoften it, unhelpful yeah, it
could be, uh, it could be anobstacle, an obstacle
(41:55):
yeah, sure, yeah, absolutely itcan be.
I've experienced itprofessionally.
Uh, we spoke to flight intohealth in the first, in our
first interview and, uh, theflight into health is a fairly
common I don't knowstatistically how common, but
it's the.
I found somebody, a therapist,who understands me, I feel seen,
(42:18):
I feel I feel heard.
These are constructive things.
We want that in the frame, butby those variables alone I feel
better.
And then that person then saysthat it's session eight or
session 15 and they leavebecause they have flown into
this position of health, whichyou could call it a flight into
hope.
Maybe you should, and thatwould be why this episode goes
(42:39):
viral.
But it's the same difference inthat it's an idealization of
the process and a devaluation ofwhat the work, the heavy
lifting truly actually entails.
And so somebody might fly intothat position really quickly, in
a sort of simulation of hopeand resilience.
(43:02):
I feel so much better, I feelso strong.
This person understands me.
You've helped me so much, drMax.
You know, see you later.
And that happens sometimes.
Christina McKelvy (43:12):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, flight into health.
Yeah, flight into health.
Max Kusovitky (43:27):
And that's that false hope or that sense of hope
that may not be based in anydepth right.
Christina McKelvy (43:31):
It might not be grounded grounded themselves.
Max Kusovitky (43:32):
yes, yeah, and.
And the falseness gets trickybecause so much of our
perception involves falsehoods.
You know, you see the world,like Gandhi said right you see
the world not as it is, but asyou are, and so a lot of our
percepts, our frames ofreference and perspectives can
(43:52):
be false-ish.
So, you know, false hope alsogets controversial if you were
to be really nitty gritty aboutit or real stickler.
Because sometimes a false hopeyes, it's not grounded in the
person's actual capacities andauthenticities is providing them
(44:15):
a buttress of sorts to keepthem upright, and that dynamic
can be invaluable to somebody,let's say, who's lacked
resilience or has been through alot of struggle in life.
Christina McKelvy (44:29):
Again, it goes back to it's very resilient
and hope is very interconnectedand that leads to healing.
Well, max, I feel like we cankeep talking for another hour
and I remember, like when wefirst met, I kept I was like, oh
my goodness, I'm learning somuch and there's just so much to
unpack.
So I really appreciate that youcame on to you know the podcast
(44:51):
to give a different perspectiveabout hope and, with that being
said, I'd like to end mypodcast with the same question
for everybody what brings youhope?
Max Kusovitky (45:02):
What brings me hope Just in general, you're
asking.
But what brings me hope isfighting this fight.
I don't want to sound so clichebut it's true.
What brings me hope is the goodfight for meaningful therapy.
You know, you could have peoplein my personal life know that,
(45:25):
hopefully professionally too.
And it brings me hope to seepeople in the field that are
really fighting, not againsteach other but fighting for.
You know the sort of helpingprofession, of what it is to be
a psychotherapist, irrespectiveof modality, but to robustly,
(45:46):
actually and long-lastingly helpa person.
It matters so much more than Ithink people realize in our
world right now.
People speak to the virtueright To bring that example
again, bring it back to thatwhere, yeah, mental health,
mental health, mental health,mental health is mental health.
That word has becomemeaningless and people are not
(46:07):
appreciative of the effort, theboots on the ground effort it
takes for the everyday therapistto do this work, especially if
they lack the resources or don'tknow things that they don't
know.
And what brings me hope is thepeople I admire in the field
that are prolific with this andlecture and teach and so on and
(46:33):
talk about how to make therapyas effective and meaningful and
powerful and hopeful as it, asit ought to be.
The science of subjectivity,the science of psychology is
real, it's rigorous yeah, andit's needed, especially nowadays
it's needed more than ever.
(46:54):
I mean, you don't need to bringin this the really saddening
statistics about.
I don't want to say all themetrics that they use, but we
all know what I'm implying whenit comes to different versions
of suffering, individual family,country, you name it.
It's bad, it's a bad situation.
Christina McKelvy (47:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Max Kusovitky (47:16):
And so thank you , you know, for the work you're
doing, the work all of our peersare doing, and instilling that
hope teaching resilience so thatpeople can heal, so and I would
say, teaching respecting thereality that a person, an
individual, has the capacity toheal and has authentic elements
(47:42):
to their own vitality.
Yeah, it's like that, it'salmost that simple.
Each person this isn't, likeyou know, sesame Street talking
about your special.
That's not what I mean.
It's not a virtue, it's areality that people have this
capacity.
It's just hard work to getthere.
Christina McKelvy (48:00):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, hard, deep, meaningfulwork so well.
Thank you for being on here anddefinitely happy back.
Max Kusovitky (48:09):
Thank you for having me.
Of course it means a lot.
Am I allowed to say this was myfirst podcast?
Christina McKelvy (48:15):
If you want to.
Max Kusovitky (48:16):
I do, I do.
This is my first time beinginterviewed formally.
I really appreciate yougambling on me.
It means a lot.
It really does.
Christina McKelvy (48:25):
Oh no, it was amazing, it was fun and, like I
said, you can come back foryour second podcast interview.
Max Kusovitky (48:31):
Awesome.
Christina McKelvy (48:32):
Or maybe it'll be your 100th when I have
you back on who knows?
Yeah, and I'll have informationin the show notes if for
whatever you want to share.
But thank you again for beinghere and I hope everyone has a
wonderful day.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.