I speak with Lan Nguyen, who speaks on the challenges faced by adult children of parents with borderline and narcissistic personality disorder. Through her experience, we peel back the layers of complex trauma that weave through generations, shining a light on how cultural shame can fuel these disorders. Join our thought-provoking conversation as Lan helps us understand the importance of validation in therapy and the journey towards healing from these deeply entrenched familial patterns, aiming to break the cycle of trauma.
This episode is not just a narrative but a revelation of how cultural competence and the intertwining of a therapist's narrative with clients can catalyze connection and healing. Hear about the role of faith, the suppression of fear, and the embracing of a multifaceted identity in the therapeutic process. It's a candid exploration of how the absence of fear allows love to flourish, guiding us through the darkest times.
The emotional odyssey of reconciliation with parents over an intercultural marriage offers a raw glimpse into setting boundaries and fostering personal growth. We celebrate resilience as we discuss the role therapy plays in addressing generational trauma, and how faith can serve as both motivation and a beacon of hope in the healing journey. With Lan's insights and my own experience as a therapist, we offer an empathetic space for those in the AAPI and BIPOC communities dealing with the complex layers of trauma, underscoring the power of vulnerability, forgiveness, and the commitment to being a cycle breaker and healer within our communities.
Learn more about Lan:
https://youtu.be/2KaEHrR5L44?feature=shared
Lan specializes in mostly AAPI or BIPOC adults/millennials who are coping with intergenerational, childhood, or complex trauma; narcissistic abuse, codependency; grief; first time therapy seekers; dating & self-confidence; attachment issues & unhealthy family dynamics.
Website: https://lannguyenlcsw.com/
Information on where you can find us.
Follow us on Instagram: @hopeologypodcast and the host @writerchristinamckelvy
To support the show, go to: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeologypodcast
Disclaimer: The views reflected by any of the guests may not reflect the views of the podcast host. Some topics may be difficult for some viewers, so proceed at your own risk. This podcast does not replace psychotherapy or advice and is for entertainment purposes only.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina McKelvy (00:00):
Welcome to Opology.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvey.
Today we're going to bespeaking with Lan Nguyen.
She talks about her work withadult children whose parents may
have borderline andnarcissistic personality
disorders, and how she assistsher clients in their healing.
She also speaks about her ownexperience and the importance of
being a cycle breaker of trauma.
We're going to be right backafter this short break.
(00:20):
Welcome to Apology stories ofhope, healing and resilience.
(01:09):
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvey.
Today we have Lana Nguyen.
How are you doing?
Lan Nguyen (01:15):
I'm doing great.
Glad to be here.
Christina McKelvy (01:18):
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on to the
podcast.
I know you know we met througha mutual organization for
therapists, and so I always lovehaving therapists on, because
there's just so many topicswithin the therapy world, so
thank you so much for being here.
Lan Nguyen (01:34):
Yes, I'm so glad to talk about what we'll be talking
about today.
I do think it's importantinformation and, yeah, I'm
really glad to connect with afellow therapist Same.
Christina McKelvy (01:49):
Well, let's begin.
You know, tell me a little bitabout the topics that you wanted
to, you know, share withlisteners.
Lan Nguyen (01:52):
Yeah, I guess overall I've just noticed more
and more female clients comingto see me in my own private
practice, but I would imaginethis is a growing concern.
But it's basically adultchildren of parents who exhibit
borderline personality disorderor narcissistic personality
(02:14):
disorder.
I focus more into borderline.
I've just seen that come upwithin my caseload more than 20
times.
Come up within my caseload morethan 20 times, so I've lost
count.
But at one point 20, 20 clientsout of maybe my 40 clients,
(02:39):
mothers, and they were allfemale, female and mothers with
traits that I would say werepretty in line with borderline
personality disorder.
I can't make that formaldiagnosis, of course, but
knowing the patterns, there werejust ways to navigate all of
that, heal from it, recover andjust cope.
Christina McKelvy (02:58):
So you saw this pattern of clients coming
in with these traits.
What made you like?
Did you initially startpractice with that in mind, or
was it just something thathappened?
Lan Nguyen (03:11):
Naturally it wasn't something that I thought of and
I was like, oh, I definitelyneed to focus on.
This seems to be finding mewith that kind of insight.
I noticed patterns.
If you do have a mother or afather who has kind of these
unstable traits, it naturallylends itself to depression,
(03:33):
anxiety, panic attacks, trustissues, imposter syndrome,
social anxiety, the gamut ofissues right, Complicated and
complex, grief, post-traumaticstress disorder, complex
post-traumatic stress.
So when I dug deeper intofamily history you know, maybe
(03:54):
they live with their parents,maybe there's been strained
family dynamics I noticed thatif I dug into oh wow, let's talk
about your mom, what are somethings that you notice?
And then if I kind of gave thema battery of questions ones
that you necessarily wouldn'tfind in the DSM, because the DSM
(04:15):
is quite vague about it.
For instance, do you feel likeyour mother happens to be a lot
nicer in public than she is athome, almost like she's wearing
a mask?
They'd be like, oh yeah,definitely.
Or do you ever feel like yourmom is insistent that she did
(04:36):
not do something or can'tremember doing something and you
have maybe three or fourwitnesses to say she did and you
have maybe three or fourwitnesses to say she did, and
those sorts of like nuanced kindof day-to-day interactions?
They would be like oh my gosh,I thought I was the crazy one.
Christina McKelvy (04:53):
Yeah.
Lan Nguyen (04:53):
Yeah, so definitely not in your DSM manual.
Christina McKelvy (05:00):
Okay, I'm curious how those individuals
with borderline personalitydisorder, how complex trauma and
intergenerational trauma, playinto individuals diagnosed with
borderline personality disorderand how that might also play
into, maybe, parenting and theclients you see inevitable.
Lan Nguyen (05:21):
I mean borderline personality disorder.
It's hard to say where thetrauma gets you know enough into
a field of like oh, this isfull blown a personality
disorder.
But both of my parents wererefugees, right.
So they escaped to Vietnam inthe midst of the fall of Saigon,
with the war and everythingcollapsing, so there was trauma
(05:44):
there and I would imagine all ofthis right.
I do think naturally withincertain cultures, shame being a
predominant kind of motivatingfactor.
I felt that very strongly in myhousehold, with my mom straight
up telling me all families gothrough this.
You don't have to tell anyoneabout this.
Telling me.
Christina McKelvy (06:05):
all families go through this.
You know you don't have to tellanyone about this.
And then, as we at least myexperience, when I started doing
my own work and working as atherapist and all that insight
started coming like oh, that'swhy, oh, yeah, and how do you
use your personal experience, orhow is your personal experience
growing up?
How does that shape yourtreatment approach when you are
working with your clients?
Lan Nguyen (06:27):
Well, I think it often starts with validation.
My parents didn't, you know,beat me per se.
I know they didn't have thebest marriage, or, but they
sacrificed for me.
And so there's so much of thisnarrative of while maybe still
being, you know, stereotypically, a good parent, being human
(06:50):
yeah, being human but at thesame time they, they might
shield themselves from thereality of, you know, maybe it
wasn't as normal as they thought.
And so I think the validationpiece comes into play where I
have to teach a lot of myclients.
You know, your health metermight be a little wonky, right.
You might've been told thatthis is fine when you know, I
(07:13):
don't think you would ever wantthat or wish that upon anyone
else.
So for a lot of my clients,they can see that for others,
but not for themselves.
And I do think validating andhaving that experience myself to
be able to go into more of thenitty gritty, not just the DSM
kind of textbook, answer umallows people to feel understood
(07:34):
, did not feel crazy, and tofinally kind of regain their
voice, because maybe they'vebeen silenced or maybe they felt
like, you know, my voice isn'timportant because I'm the crazy
one.
Christina McKelvy (07:48):
When in reality that wasn't actually the
narrative.
Lan Nguyen (07:58):
No, yeah, and that's the the interesting part
narrative happening that theyhad been kind of tricked into
this other reality, when thereality ahead of them is like
you know, there was nothing youcould have done.
You were just a child, you didnot deserve that.
You deserve more, you deservethe best.
(08:20):
And so I think for a lot of myclients it's hard, especially
given other kind of likecultural factors, a lot of my
clients being Asian, american,pacific Islander or just people
of color.
Naturally there's filial piety.
I can't say these things aboutmy parents, it doesn't feel
(08:40):
right.
The respect, yeah, yeah, eveneven just speaking about it, I
remember even telling myselfthat I would never be able to
write a memoir until my parentsdied, because I'm thinking I
don't want to disrespect them,at least not when they're alive
(09:10):
and that's the, I think, maybethe concept of shame.
Christina McKelvy (09:13):
You know, I'm curious like how like shame can
play into, how shame can hinderthe healing process.
You especially like, maybe withcultural factors and other
norms like that.
She's nodding her head up anddown.
Lan Nguyen (09:29):
Yeah yeah, shame is huge in.
I mean, like I said, it's ahuge motivator.
I talk about this concept offog.
It stands for fear, obligationand guilt, and it derived it was
coined by a book in, I think,the late nineties, about
(09:50):
emotional manipulation,emotional abuse.
But that's basically whathappens in these dysfunctional
family systems where you'reseeing, you know, if you only
like loved me or you're soungrateful, how would you treat
me like this?
Or you know, after you onlylike loved me or you're so
ungrateful, how would you treatme like this?
Or you know, after all we'vedone for you, all the sacrifices
(10:10):
we've made, how can you disobeyus like this?
There's a lot of thosesentiments being circulated and
so a lot of my clients come tome in the fog fear, obligation,
guilt.
They're making decisions out ofthat fogginess, out of that
confusion, and they're wonderingwhy they're running on empty.
They're wondering why they feelso unfulfilled or they're burnt
(10:33):
out or they're just, you know,triggered easily by everything.
Christina McKelvy (10:39):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and so setting that
framework, you know, reallyhelps them kind of start that
process yeah, after they're ableto, like, basically demonstrate
some self-compassion.
Lan Nguyen (10:53):
You know, having some self-compassion for
themselves allows them tofinally have the appropriate
kind of anger right.
They might not have angertowards anyone but themselves,
and maybe they could actuallyhave anger towards anyone but
themselves and maybe they couldactually have anger directed
towards the right sources right.
(11:15):
Maybe they could actuallygrieve and I do a lot of that
with my clients right, theycan't change their parents, so
they're grieving the reality oftheir childhood.
They're grieving the reality oftheir current present day
interactions with family.
Christina McKelvy (11:24):
They're grieving the reality of their
current present day interactionswith family, grieving what
could have been.
You know I have with some of myclients.
I will have them, like part ofa reparenting process, you know,
write a letter to them, totheir childhood self, as you
know, an older mentor or bigbrother or big sister or a
parent, and kind of likevalidate what they went through.
(11:48):
And then I might even have themre narrate their story, like
retell their story and how theywant it to be, and I have
noticed that has helped themfeel healed.
I don't know if that made senseExperience healing.
Lan Nguyen (12:00):
No, I definitely see that I do a lot of that kind of
helping clients to reclaimtheir narrative right.
I am also certified intrauma-focused cognitive
behavioral therapy, which a bigcomponent is narrative.
I wouldn't say I formally havegone through the protocol.
(12:21):
Through the protocol, I doemploy a lot of those techniques
to allow clients to look backat their history more
objectively.
Right, who were they before thetrauma, who were they after?
What might they name thosechapters of their lives?
What might they want to nametheir entire book and how would
(12:45):
that healing look?
But, like you're saying, I do alot of letter writing, or at
least I suggest it to clients.
I can't force them to do it anda lot of them shy away from
doing the hard work because it'sa lot, it's very emotionally
taxing.
But it might look like writinga letter to their younger self.
It might look like writing aletter to their younger self.
(13:06):
It might look like writing aletter to their ideal parent.
You know, here lies my idealparent.
You never showed up.
I really wanted you to be there.
Could look like writing aletter to their sibling or to
their actual parent, ones thatthey will never send because at
some point some of theprocessing and acceptance just
needs to come from their ownexperience.
(13:27):
So yeah, the practice of unsentletters is really common in my
practice.
Christina McKelvy (13:35):
Unsent letters.
Yes, same, I do have somefeedback.
Hopefully I don't know if I'mgoing to have to, hopefully I
don't have to edit out, butsomeone's doing a weed whacker
right now oh, okay, no, theynever do they never do.
It's just, it is.
I don't have a studio.
I'm, you know, I'm not thatbougie where I have like, yeah,
(13:55):
I don't eat.
So I told my husband he had toleave because garage door
triggers my dogs to bark oh no,well, this may or may not be
edited out, because it's kind offun to have a little silliness
yes, yeah, so my dogs haven'tbarked yet, but that's because
he already left right before westarted recording well, you
(14:17):
might hear my cat, but he's socold he's buried under blankets
right now, um, because he's,like I, winter.
He's a desert cat and we don'tlive in the desert anymore, so a
little burrito right.
Yes, oh, I love that.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour healing journey.
You know did.
Did it look similar to how younavigate your client's healing
(14:42):
journey, or did it look a littledifferent?
Lan Nguyen (14:47):
you navigate your client's healing journey or did
it look a little different?
I would say a lot of it lookssimilar and depending on the
client, it may take longer, itmay take shorter, Right.
Um, I just remember Iconsidered myself in my own
therapy as like an A plusstudent right, my own therapy as
like an A plus student right.
I did the readings.
I did above and beyond thereadings.
(15:07):
You know I read body keeps thescore all by myself, like over
the span of, you know, twoevenings.
Christina McKelvy (15:15):
And that's such a clinical book.
Like I was, I was telling theclients all about it and then
finally I read it myself.
I'm like this is a textbook.
Lan Nguyen (15:22):
Yeah, it's very dense.
I would not.
It's not like your summer Um inin a way.
I just I really wanted to healfaster.
I guess I mean a lot of what Iwas learning like fascinates me
and also informs my practice.
So it's almost like concurrent.
(15:44):
I did both at the same time,but it's very similar, right.
It really helps me to havecompassion for myself, to grieve
.
So there was a process ofgrieving.
I did also go through EMDR andnow that I'm EMDR trained, I am
so happy to be able to providethat service to my clients and
(16:08):
allow them to kind of go throughthe same healing journey I did
right.
Christina McKelvy (16:11):
Once they're ready to kind of go there, we
can go there yeah, I'm noticingmore and more clients really do
appreciate that if theirtherapist has some sort of
insight or commonality to whatthey're going through yeah, I
(16:32):
mean, at the very least, a lotof my clients come to me because
they might be Asian and theyjust want to, you know, gets it.
Lan Nguyen (16:39):
They don't want to explain family dynamics, filial
piety, the pressures of like,you know, conforming and an
obedience, all of those kind oflike very anti-individualism
sort of like topics, but youknow, very much kind of more
(17:01):
held in esteem for a lot of thecollectivist societies,
literally, you know, of myculture, asian, whether it be
certain other pacific islanderkind of populations, or maybe
just generally people of coloryeah, I was one of a couple of
(17:22):
my podcasts um interviews before.
Christina McKelvy (17:25):
We talked a lot about how a lot of
psychology is very um western,normative and male-centric.
You know the ivory towers, likefreud and young and stuff like
that, yeah, and does it reallyspeak to a lot of individuals
nowadays, even generation,generationally and like you said
, you know, um asian pacificislander people of color, like
(17:48):
it's not what we're, what wewere taught or I was taught 10
years ago.
It doesn't really align.
Lan Nguyen (17:54):
Yeah, time yeah, I mean I've had my slew of, like
you know, going through themental health system and being
told well, just don't listen toyour parents, and I'm like
that's not that easy what thatmeans.
You know that basically meansgetting disowned in a lot oh
yeah, I mean maybe good forclinical and kind of personal
(18:18):
disclosure kind of stuff.
But I have been disowned, sothere there's elements of that
in my story as well.
But I also have like aredemption arc where I'm no
longer disowned and so there's alot of pieces of like healing
that, um, I, I can meet clientswhere they're at, I can
understand, I can kind ofmeasure the risks and the
(18:39):
benefits and the costs and kindof play it out with them.
Christina McKelvy (18:46):
Again, you're aligning with them, yeah.
Lan Nguyen (18:52):
Yeah, I do a lot of that.
I think that's why clients cometo see me.
I think they find me like.
You get it, You're personable.
I like that.
You have lived experience.
You know you're not speakingfrom just like your textbook
knowledge.
Right, I'm not lecturing them.
I can actually relate, havinggone through my own mental
health issues, my own trauma, myown you know therapy experience
(19:16):
.
And letting them know this is,you know, maybe it's not normal
that you don't feel comfortabletalking to your therapist, or
maybe you should exploredifferent options.
Or maybe I'm not, you know, thebest therapist for you because
that's not within my scope ofpractice.
So I do love to be able toequip my clients with a
(19:36):
knowledge base that allows themto make informed decisions, so
they know that they have options, which I never really
understood, that that was athing in the mental health
system we were taught blankslate, you know don't disclose,
or very minimal, and I haven'tfound that helpful.
Christina McKelvy (19:57):
I do believe you don't want to disclose too
much or disclose the unnecessarythings, of course.
Yeah, well, you know youmentioned, so you were disowned
and then you were not disowned,so that's like your redemption
arc.
Yeah, a little bit more aboutthat.
Lan Nguyen (20:12):
It's like a like I mean, it's a really cool story.
I mean so my faith background.
I do identify as Christian.
I do strongly, you know,practice my faith.
I would say I'm pretty devoutin fear.
(20:46):
It was primarily because ofwhat I knew about my identity in
Christ, which meant fear wasnot part of the equation.
Right, if there is fear there,there's no love.
And I had recently you knowthis is back in 2016.
2016, I had gone on a short-termmissions trip to Indonesia
where I learned, like a lot of Inot only just was able to
(21:09):
contribute in my very small waywe helped out an orphanage, we
held a vacation, bible study,but Bible school for the kids,
um, but they taught me so muchabout love and about patience
and about healing.
I got to share parts of mystory with them and they were
touched by it.
You know all of this withtranslators and of course, you
(21:31):
know I don't have language, butcoming back from that, I
realized that my dynamics withineven just going on that trip
was a lot of it was based infear.
I didn't want to tell mycoworkers that I was going on a
mission trip because I was likethey're going to think I'm weird
or they're going to judge me orthey're going to fire Like my
(21:51):
boss is going to fire me becauseI'm going to be gone for two
weeks.
My parents aren't of the samereligious background faith
background as me, so I wasafraid they wouldn't improve and
they they did, fortunately.
But there was a lot of fearabout telling them about why I
was doing this and I needed tofundraise and do all these sorts
(22:12):
of things in order to affordthe trip.
When I came back, my now husband.
He proposed to me and it wasmet with a lot of I wouldn't say
they were approving.
I showed my dad my ring and hejust frowned at me and shook his
head.
He didn't say any words.
(22:33):
He just looked at me, shook hishead in disappointment and said
nothing and I was like he late.
You know, I was elated.
I was like dad, look, itfinally happened.
Like I've been dating him foryou know, four years, like this
is happening.
My dad said nothing.
My mom, I think, was like lessenthusiastic as well and I was
(22:57):
living with them at the time.
But basically my storyculminates with a decision for
my husband and I to basically,in a sense, elope.
Right, they're pleasing myparents.
They had very high expectationsfor what it would look like to
get married.
I was living at home with themand they almost had this
(23:19):
sentiment of, like traditionalAsian culture, you don't leave
the home if you're a girl untilyou get married, and so, in a
way, my husband thought he wasrescuing me by, like marrying me
off and you know, is yourhusband part of the same culture
?
Christina McKelvy (23:36):
is he?
Lan Nguyen (23:36):
yes, he is okay, yeah, so the language barrier is
not there.
The cultural barrier might bebecause he's from a different
region in terms of also likesocioeconomic status, like I
would say.
My parents are like uppermiddle class to upper class.
You know my dad's very muchlike he.
(23:59):
He thinks education iseverything.
You know higher education iseverything.
Be better, do more, study more.
My husband, his parents, didn'tgo to college.
They are working class, kind ofblue collar.
They've made it kind of just byworking hard and doing kind of
(24:20):
sometimes menial jobs and sovery different kind of.
You know, we have the sameculture, we're both Vietnamese
and Vietnamese American, but ina, in a lot of ways, very
different culturally.
It's almost like prince and thepauper or something like that,
just very just out there, Idon't know, kind of Romeo and
(24:41):
Juliet, just like SES, rightsocioeconomic status yes, ses
socioeconomic status, just notnot there where tears, I guess.
Um, of course, my mom wanted meto marry rich, right?
Um, my dad was saying no to no.
You need to be self-sustaining,because he saw his sister
(25:05):
undergo some kind of tragedywhere she had to end up being
like the primary breadwinner,right.
So, in his mind, don't dependon anybody.
Use your wits, be better,because you're a minority.
Christina McKelvy (25:17):
You know work hard.
Lan Nguyen (25:19):
So I had almost like the expectation to be the man,
you know, stereotypically inAsian culture, but also the
woman.
So, I don't know, confusing,very confusing.
You know, they have a different, uh, faith background.
They didn't like that.
We both identified as Christian.
So it ultimately came down tomy dad telling me you're not
(25:42):
going to get married, you cannotget married.
I command you, you know, youmust obey me, do not get married
.
Um, we got married.
We invited them.
(26:11):
My mom criticized ourinvitation.
She just said we were making amistake.
My brother was I have threeolder brothers um, only one of
them attended my wedding.
They were all invited, but theother two aligned with my
parents and said you're breakingup the family, you're hurting
mom and dad, so that thatstarted like about six months of
(26:34):
just no contact.
And my dad, you know, kicked usout of the house, said like we,
if we don't even know you, howcan you be a Christian when you
do this?
You would only, you would evenbetray your own family and call
yourself a Christian.
A lot of hard things I had tohear as I was packing up and
moving out my mom, you know,maybe this might, I don't know
(27:01):
trigger warning, I guess.
Um, my mom, um, basically saidshe wished she had died on my
wedding day.
Yeah, she wished, and she evenbrought God into the equation.
She was like I wish God hadkilled me so very, um, extreme
statements of like suicidalgesturing.
(27:22):
She said that she lost two ofher children that day because my
brother walked me down theaisle and she no longer regarded
me as her own child.
So she only had two out of fourkids at that point.
A lot of ridiculous things, youknow.
They both told me not to tellanybody about our marriage.
If you tell us, shame, yeah, alot of shame.
(27:45):
If you tell grandma she's goingto have a heart attack because
how could you do this, how couldyou be like this?
Um, the redemption arc isbasically I mean, I still held
true to my faith.
You know, my, my wedding daywas beautiful.
I mean I still held true to myfaith.
You know, my my wedding day wasbeautiful.
60 of my closest friends and,well, family from my family of
(28:07):
faith, right, so spiritual kindof mentor, mother, father,
figures, um, you know, attended.
It was beautiful.
Um, it was like a great day um,that same evening.
So my, my wedding anniversaryis coming up.
It's actually the 23rd ofDecember.
Christina McKelvy (28:24):
Oh, congratulations.
Oh, right before Christmas,that's a lot of celebration in a
row, yeah.
Lan Nguyen (28:30):
I mean it's interesting.
It was only that way because wegot married on our five-year
dating anniversary and I was inschool when we started dating,
right?
So I came home for the holidaysand that's when he asked me out
and we just decided why notmake that our wedding
anniversary date as well?
So actually my husband, like hesaid, he's going shopping for
(28:54):
our anniversary gift right now.
We'll see how he does.
Christina McKelvy (29:00):
There we go yeah.
Lan Nguyen (29:01):
But it will be our seven year anniversary and, uh,
but at the time, right, Sixmonths or so of not being sure
if I was still under theirinsurance because it was messy.
Six months of not hearing frommy siblings or only hearing from
them to say that you, youmessed up, that you like damaged
(29:24):
everything.
Six months of being, like,revoked from family gatherings
just a lot of, like, confusion.
But I had a lot of healingmoments with my community
outside of that.
So the redemption basicallycomes when I decide for mother's
day and father's day followingmy wedding, to send them both a
(29:49):
letter separately to justacknowledge and honor the parent
that they were right.
I didn't acknowledge all theways they messed me up.
I want you to focus and say youknow, mom, I still appreciate
you for demonstrating generosity.
I still want to honor you forbeing a loving, you know
(30:13):
contributing, you knowhardworking woman, very, very
hospitable, very, very sweetkind of woman.
Right, I wrote that in a letter.
I sent it with a Polaroidpicture.
It happened to be aroundMother's Day at my church and
they had Polaroid cameras so youcan write letters to your moms.
(30:34):
I used that opportunity tohonor my mom and I felt that
conviction because of thatSunday sermon which was about
honoring your mom.
Even though she might not be thebest but there are still
qualities that you can stilllook back on and appreciate.
She was your mom for a reason.
(30:55):
Similarly, I reached out to mydad for father's day.
Very similar message of youknow he provided, he was
hardworking, he was a strong,sacrificial sort of person.
You know, very I think I get alot of my humor from him.
So aspects of that that I hadto, you know, call out and
(31:18):
admire and honor.
And as soon as I did that emailstarted coming, my dad emailed
me back hey, when are we goingto meet up?
Hey, we're ready to talk again.
Interestingly enough, when wedo meet up and my dad says, hey,
we're going to sit down andpray, he prays over our meeting
(31:38):
and he basically says I have adaughter again and I am so
thankful she's here.
And I could tell my mom was alittle, a little dragging her
feet on this about likerecognizing that I was married
and now she has a son, yeah,through my husband, you know.
(32:00):
But it was interesting to saythat they both were able to
acknowledge it and they wantedto celebrate.
So they kind of did like a minipublic dinner wedding thing for
me and my husband, just tointroduce us as married to the
rest of the family, which a lotof the family knew, but they
(32:24):
just didn't.
They weren't allowed to talkabout it, I guess.
So I mean at this point it'sbeen like pretty good, I think,
that healing, I mean maybe Iwould say even that boundary of
setting that with my parents.
They crossed me in that waybecause I think they know they
(32:45):
could lose me again in somesense.
Yeah.
So there were times where Ifelt like, oh my gosh, they are
only 10 to 15 minutes away fromme.
They could show up at mydoorstep at any time and start,
you know, pestering me orinvading my space or, you know,
criticizing me.
It never happened and I thinkmaybe it was because they knew
(33:09):
they couldn't take that chancewith me.
I had already grown up.
I was now a married woman andhopefully they saw me more as an
adult rather than their baby.
Christina McKelvy (33:21):
Hmm, that transition that a lot of parents
have to go through.
Lan Nguyen (33:26):
Yeah, I know, for my dad, up until I got married,
that was something he likepleaded with me.
He was like I know you want tomove out, but I just want to see
you, even just like your shadow, when you come home at night.
We don't have to say anythingto each other, I just want to
know that you're around.
And he was, you know, you know,getting more sentimental.
(33:46):
He sent letters to my brothersaying things that he regretted
or that he wished he did, and hecried and like this is a man
that does not cry.
So he was getting very, verysentimental and kind of mushy,
and so I knew he couldn't becomelike an empty nester.
(34:07):
He was dreading it and I thinkthat's ultimately why he said
you cannot get married, right?
Christina McKelvy (34:14):
Are you the youngest?
I am the youngest and you'rethe daughter.
Lan Nguyen (34:18):
And the daughter.
I know, and my dad has told meon many occasions, you are my
favorite child and I would belike, yeah, you can't say that,
it's so jacked up oh, now you'retelling the whole world.
I know I mean they'll find outeventually.
I do want to read more theyhave to know someday eventually
(34:39):
yeah yeah, I I have to saythings have come a long way.
I don't really understand why ithad to be so dramatic, but in a
way, maybe that's just how myfamily understands boundaries.
It's not until you like a huge,severe consequence where they
(35:00):
understand.
Christina McKelvy (35:01):
Oh, they mean business severe consequence,
where they understand oh, theymean business, and I'm maybe
that you would only know was howthey understood boundaries from
their parents and how theirparents understood boundaries
from their grandparents, and, oh, I wouldn't even know that
because, like I said, my momkeeps a tight lid on her history
.
Lan Nguyen (35:21):
I've never met my grandmother on that side.
I've never met certain siblingson that side.
She only talks about them inlike passing by.
But yeah, I think, for my dadespecially, I think I know his
trauma right.
He's never been hugged by hisown dad.
His dad never told him he lovedhim.
Christina McKelvy (35:42):
My dad's a hugger because he's the opposite
direction.
Lan Nguyen (35:44):
He was like if I never got hugs, I'm gonna make
sure my kids hug me yeah yeah,hug your shadow.
Yeah, he's like a physicaltouch guy.
So it's interesting how he hetook that and, though for a
while it did traumatize mebecause I didn't want to hug my
dad because I was afraid of him.
He's terrified of him.
(36:05):
He was scary.
I understand now that he waslike trying to reclaim his own
hurt, never got hugged by hisdad.
He never got told I love you.
My dad's very, I guess, on that.
In that sense he's veryaffectionate.
He's never experienced any ofthat.
He's more's very affectionate.
If he's never experienced anyof that.
He's more on the affectionateside.
Christina McKelvy (36:26):
He, when I see him nowadays he'll just be
like where's my hug open armsand he'll be, like you know,
very, very affectionate in thatway he's reclaiming, like you
said, he's reclaiming that andby doing that it is changing
future generations in thatgenerational tree, the
(36:47):
generational patterns, oh yeahyeah, like we've.
Lan Nguyen (36:51):
We've done some like overhaul in this garden.
So this tree, some of thoselike branches that have been
rotting, they've been pruned.
The roots probably had to beretrained to go a different
route.
I don't know.
I think there's a lot of workin the family that I can see.
Like I, I pride myself on beinga cycle breaker.
(37:14):
Right, if it started with meand it's kind of gotten ripple
effects, then I am happy andpleased to say that it's
happening.
It's happening now rather thangenerations later.
Christina McKelvy (37:42):
Being a psycho breaker, and I
millennials, gen zers I feelthat is, at least as therapists,
that is a lot of the focus likewe are going to be psycho
breakers right, like we don'twant this dysfunction to
continue.
Lan Nguyen (37:58):
It stops with me.
Yeah, I'm gonna my healing andI see so much of that in my
office, right With my sessions,my clients a lot of them come to
me.
I don't know how this works.
I've never had therapy before.
I don't really want to tell myparents I'm in therapy.
They don't get it.
They think I'm crazy or theythink therapy is silly or just
(38:20):
for crazy people.
So I see a lot of that.
I mean, I'm the first person inmy family, my immediate family,
to get therapy.
I think one of my brothers hasgotten gotten therapy, not sure
about the other two, but I dosee a lot of healing happening
and I guess maybe it startedbackwards with me, right?
Christina McKelvy (38:44):
It's usually the daughters.
Lan Nguyen (38:47):
What can we say?
Christina McKelvy (38:49):
I think, we're just smarter.
Yeah, so I always.
Where did I hear that?
It's usually the daughters.
So we're getting close to timeand I hear the redemption arc
reminds me of hope andresilience, and that is what my
podcast is about.
You know, hope, healing andresilience.
So what brings you hope?
Lan Nguyen (39:13):
Well, I would.
I would bring it back to myfaith in Jesus Christ, because
you know, I'm a very differentperson before I met Jesus.
I have hope because I haveJesus.
I used to be a very pessimistic, kind of nihilistic person.
I don't know if I would be cutout for this field if I were
(39:36):
just to tell them all my clientsyou know life sucks, you're
just going to die and that's it.
But I would say, would say, yeah, I can't do the things that
I've done, for instance, reachout that olive branch with
honoring my parents rightwithout even hearing a sorry
from them or any kind ofadmission of guilt or
(39:59):
responsibility on their part.
So I feel like a lot of mymotivation and conviction and my
worldview has been the hopethat I have in a God that is so
much bigger than me, so muchmore loving, so much more wise.
I know I'm so finite and Ithink that's where I find so
(40:22):
much hope and so much peace andknowing that I don't have to
have it all together, but I havesomeone who is on my side and
is fighting on my behalf and thevictory is already there.
Yeah, so I would say my faith.
Really I don't know if I coulddo what I do on the daily
without my faith Cause I'm sureyou've probably met therapists
(40:45):
that are burnt out, jaded.
I think that's generallynaturally what's going to happen
If you hear enough bad news dayin and day out, or you're stuck
with clients who aren't makingprogress, or things just seem
bleak and hopeless.
But I know, at the end of theday, it's not about what I can
(41:06):
do, it's about what is beingdone through me.
I have a hope that is bigger,more beautiful, it's eternal,
it's just beyond me, so I livefor that.
Christina McKelvy (41:19):
Thank you, that was beautiful Well.
Lan Nguyen (41:22):
I'm glad to share that.
I'm really glad to be able toshare a lot.
I didn't think I'd go into somuch of my story, but any
consolation, there is hope.
Christina McKelvy (41:31):
There's always hope, sharing your story
and being very vulnerable.
You know, with my listeners andyou know it sounds like a lot
(41:55):
of the takeaways is being acycle breaker and honoring your
parents where they were at too,and being open to healing.
And yeah, thank you, you'rewelcome, you, you're welcome.
Another great interview.
(42:15):
You can find Lon on Instagramand YouTube.
I will put that in the shownotes along with her website.
Lon specializes mostly withAAPI or BIPOC.
Adults, millennials who arecoping with intergenerational
childhood or complex trauma,narcissistic abuse, codependency
, grief and first time therapyseekers are also additional
clientele she works with.
She helps those through datingand self-confidence, attachment
(42:36):
issues and unhealthy familydynamics.
Again, you can find all of herinformation in the show notes,
where you can follow her onInstagram, linkedin, facebook
and her webpage.
Thank you,
Welcome to Opology.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvey.
Today we're going to bespeaking with Lan Nguyen.
She talks about her work withadult children whose parents may
have borderline andnarcissistic personality
disorders, and how she assistsher clients in their healing.
She also speaks about her ownexperience and the importance of
being a cycle breaker of trauma.
We're going to be right backafter this short break.
(00:20):
Welcome to Apology stories ofhope, healing and resilience.
(01:09):
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvey.
Today we have Lana Nguyen.
How are you doing?
Lan Nguyen (01:15):
I'm doing great.
Glad to be here.
Christina McKelvy (01:18):
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on to the
podcast.
I know you know we met througha mutual organization for
therapists, and so I always lovehaving therapists on, because
there's just so many topicswithin the therapy world, so
thank you so much for being here.
Lan Nguyen (01:34):
Yes, I'm so glad to talk about what we'll be talking
about today.
I do think it's importantinformation and, yeah, I'm
really glad to connect with afellow therapist Same.
Christina McKelvy (01:49):
Well, let's begin.
You know, tell me a little bitabout the topics that you wanted
to, you know, share withlisteners.
Lan Nguyen (01:52):
Yeah, I guess overall I've just noticed more
and more female clients comingto see me in my own private
practice, but I would imaginethis is a growing concern.
But it's basically adultchildren of parents who exhibit
borderline personality disorderor narcissistic personality
(02:14):
disorder.
I focus more into borderline.
I've just seen that come upwithin my caseload more than 20
times.
Come up within my caseload morethan 20 times, so I've lost
count.
But at one point 20, 20 clientsout of maybe my 40 clients,
(02:39):
mothers, and they were allfemale, female and mothers with
traits that I would say werepretty in line with borderline
personality disorder.
I can't make that formaldiagnosis, of course, but
knowing the patterns, there werejust ways to navigate all of
that, heal from it, recover andjust cope.
Christina McKelvy (02:58):
So you saw this pattern of clients coming
in with these traits.
What made you like?
Did you initially startpractice with that in mind, or
was it just something thathappened?
Lan Nguyen (03:11):
Naturally it wasn't something that I thought of and
I was like, oh, I definitelyneed to focus on.
This seems to be finding mewith that kind of insight.
I noticed patterns.
If you do have a mother or afather who has kind of these
unstable traits, it naturallylends itself to depression,
(03:33):
anxiety, panic attacks, trustissues, imposter syndrome,
social anxiety, the gamut ofissues right, Complicated and
complex, grief, post-traumaticstress disorder, complex
post-traumatic stress.
So when I dug deeper intofamily history you know, maybe
(03:54):
they live with their parents,maybe there's been strained
family dynamics I noticed thatif I dug into oh wow, let's talk
about your mom, what are somethings that you notice?
And then if I kind of gave thema battery of questions ones
that you necessarily wouldn'tfind in the DSM, because the DSM
(04:15):
is quite vague about it.
For instance, do you feel likeyour mother happens to be a lot
nicer in public than she is athome, almost like she's wearing
a mask?
They'd be like, oh yeah,definitely.
Or do you ever feel like yourmom is insistent that she did
(04:36):
not do something or can'tremember doing something and you
have maybe three or fourwitnesses to say she did and you
have maybe three or fourwitnesses to say she did, and
those sorts of like nuanced kindof day-to-day interactions?
They would be like oh my gosh,I thought I was the crazy one.
Christina McKelvy (04:53):
Yeah.
Lan Nguyen (04:53):
Yeah, so definitely not in your DSM manual.
Christina McKelvy (05:00):
Okay, I'm curious how those individuals
with borderline personalitydisorder, how complex trauma and
intergenerational trauma, playinto individuals diagnosed with
borderline personality disorderand how that might also play
into, maybe, parenting and theclients you see inevitable.
Lan Nguyen (05:21):
I mean borderline personality disorder.
It's hard to say where thetrauma gets you know enough into
a field of like oh, this isfull blown a personality
disorder.
But both of my parents wererefugees, right.
So they escaped to Vietnam inthe midst of the fall of Saigon,
with the war and everythingcollapsing, so there was trauma
(05:44):
there and I would imagine all ofthis right.
I do think naturally withincertain cultures, shame being a
predominant kind of motivatingfactor.
I felt that very strongly in myhousehold, with my mom straight
up telling me all families gothrough this.
You don't have to tell anyoneabout this.
Telling me.
Christina McKelvy (06:05):
all families go through this.
You know you don't have to tellanyone about this.
And then, as we at least myexperience, when I started doing
my own work and working as atherapist and all that insight
started coming like oh, that'swhy, oh, yeah, and how do you
use your personal experience, orhow is your personal experience
growing up?
How does that shape yourtreatment approach when you are
working with your clients?
Lan Nguyen (06:27):
Well, I think it often starts with validation.
My parents didn't, you know,beat me per se.
I know they didn't have thebest marriage, or, but they
sacrificed for me.
And so there's so much of thisnarrative of while maybe still
being, you know, stereotypically, a good parent, being human
(06:50):
yeah, being human but at thesame time they, they might
shield themselves from thereality of, you know, maybe it
wasn't as normal as they thought.
And so I think the validationpiece comes into play where I
have to teach a lot of myclients.
You know, your health metermight be a little wonky, right.
You might've been told thatthis is fine when you know, I
(07:13):
don't think you would ever wantthat or wish that upon anyone
else.
So for a lot of my clients,they can see that for others,
but not for themselves.
And I do think validating andhaving that experience myself to
be able to go into more of thenitty gritty, not just the DSM
kind of textbook, answer umallows people to feel understood
(07:34):
, did not feel crazy, and tofinally kind of regain their
voice, because maybe they'vebeen silenced or maybe they felt
like, you know, my voice isn'timportant because I'm the crazy
one.
Christina McKelvy (07:48):
When in reality that wasn't actually the
narrative.
Lan Nguyen (07:58):
No, yeah, and that's the the interesting part
narrative happening that theyhad been kind of tricked into
this other reality, when thereality ahead of them is like
you know, there was nothing youcould have done.
You were just a child, you didnot deserve that.
You deserve more, you deservethe best.
(08:20):
And so I think for a lot of myclients it's hard, especially
given other kind of likecultural factors, a lot of my
clients being Asian, american,pacific Islander or just people
of color.
Naturally there's filial piety.
I can't say these things aboutmy parents, it doesn't feel
(08:40):
right.
The respect, yeah, yeah, eveneven just speaking about it, I
remember even telling myselfthat I would never be able to
write a memoir until my parentsdied, because I'm thinking I
don't want to disrespect them,at least not when they're alive
(09:10):
and that's the, I think, maybethe concept of shame.
Christina McKelvy (09:13):
You know, I'm curious like how like shame can
play into, how shame can hinderthe healing process.
You especially like, maybe withcultural factors and other
norms like that.
She's nodding her head up anddown.
Lan Nguyen (09:29):
Yeah yeah, shame is huge in.
I mean, like I said, it's ahuge motivator.
I talk about this concept offog.
It stands for fear, obligationand guilt, and it derived it was
coined by a book in, I think,the late nineties, about
(09:50):
emotional manipulation,emotional abuse.
But that's basically whathappens in these dysfunctional
family systems where you'reseeing, you know, if you only
like loved me or you're soungrateful, how would you treat
me like this?
Or you know, after you onlylike loved me or you're so
ungrateful, how would you treatme like this?
Or you know, after all we'vedone for you, all the sacrifices
(10:10):
we've made, how can you disobeyus like this?
There's a lot of thosesentiments being circulated and
so a lot of my clients come tome in the fog fear, obligation,
guilt.
They're making decisions out ofthat fogginess, out of that
confusion, and they're wonderingwhy they're running on empty.
They're wondering why they feelso unfulfilled or they're burnt
(10:33):
out or they're just, you know,triggered easily by everything.
Christina McKelvy (10:39):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and so setting that
framework, you know, reallyhelps them kind of start that
process yeah, after they're ableto, like, basically demonstrate
some self-compassion.
Lan Nguyen (10:53):
You know, having some self-compassion for
themselves allows them tofinally have the appropriate
kind of anger right.
They might not have angertowards anyone but themselves,
and maybe they could actuallyhave anger towards anyone but
themselves and maybe they couldactually have anger directed
towards the right sources right.
(11:15):
Maybe they could actuallygrieve and I do a lot of that
with my clients right, theycan't change their parents, so
they're grieving the reality oftheir childhood.
They're grieving the reality oftheir current present day
interactions with family.
Christina McKelvy (11:24):
They're grieving the reality of their
current present day interactionswith family, grieving what
could have been.
You know I have with some of myclients.
I will have them, like part ofa reparenting process, you know,
write a letter to them, totheir childhood self, as you
know, an older mentor or bigbrother or big sister or a
parent, and kind of likevalidate what they went through.
(11:48):
And then I might even have themre narrate their story, like
retell their story and how theywant it to be, and I have
noticed that has helped themfeel healed.
I don't know if that made senseExperience healing.
Lan Nguyen (12:00):
No, I definitely see that I do a lot of that kind of
helping clients to reclaimtheir narrative right.
I am also certified intrauma-focused cognitive
behavioral therapy, which a bigcomponent is narrative.
I wouldn't say I formally havegone through the protocol.
(12:21):
Through the protocol, I doemploy a lot of those techniques
to allow clients to look backat their history more
objectively.
Right, who were they before thetrauma, who were they after?
What might they name thosechapters of their lives?
What might they want to nametheir entire book and how would
(12:45):
that healing look?
But, like you're saying, I do alot of letter writing, or at
least I suggest it to clients.
I can't force them to do it anda lot of them shy away from
doing the hard work because it'sa lot, it's very emotionally
taxing.
But it might look like writinga letter to their younger self.
It might look like writing aletter to their younger self.
(13:06):
It might look like writing aletter to their ideal parent.
You know, here lies my idealparent.
You never showed up.
I really wanted you to be there.
Could look like writing aletter to their sibling or to
their actual parent, ones thatthey will never send because at
some point some of theprocessing and acceptance just
needs to come from their ownexperience.
(13:27):
So yeah, the practice of unsentletters is really common in my
practice.
Christina McKelvy (13:35):
Unsent letters.
Yes, same, I do have somefeedback.
Hopefully I don't know if I'mgoing to have to, hopefully I
don't have to edit out, butsomeone's doing a weed whacker
right now oh, okay, no, theynever do they never do.
It's just, it is.
I don't have a studio.
I'm, you know, I'm not thatbougie where I have like, yeah,
(13:55):
I don't eat.
So I told my husband he had toleave because garage door
triggers my dogs to bark oh no,well, this may or may not be
edited out, because it's kind offun to have a little silliness
yes, yeah, so my dogs haven'tbarked yet, but that's because
he already left right before westarted recording well, you
(14:17):
might hear my cat, but he's socold he's buried under blankets
right now, um, because he's,like I, winter.
He's a desert cat and we don'tlive in the desert anymore, so a
little burrito right.
Yes, oh, I love that.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour healing journey.
You know did.
Did it look similar to how younavigate your client's healing
(14:42):
journey, or did it look a littledifferent?
Lan Nguyen (14:47):
you navigate your client's healing journey or did
it look a little different?
I would say a lot of it lookssimilar and depending on the
client, it may take longer, itmay take shorter, Right.
Um, I just remember Iconsidered myself in my own
therapy as like an A plusstudent right, my own therapy as
like an A plus student right.
I did the readings.
I did above and beyond thereadings.
(15:07):
You know I read body keeps thescore all by myself, like over
the span of, you know, twoevenings.
Christina McKelvy (15:15):
And that's such a clinical book.
Like I was, I was telling theclients all about it and then
finally I read it myself.
I'm like this is a textbook.
Lan Nguyen (15:22):
Yeah, it's very dense.
I would not.
It's not like your summer Um inin a way.
I just I really wanted to healfaster.
I guess I mean a lot of what Iwas learning like fascinates me
and also informs my practice.
So it's almost like concurrent.
(15:44):
I did both at the same time,but it's very similar, right.
It really helps me to havecompassion for myself, to grieve
.
So there was a process ofgrieving.
I did also go through EMDR andnow that I'm EMDR trained, I am
so happy to be able to providethat service to my clients and
(16:08):
allow them to kind of go throughthe same healing journey I did
right.
Christina McKelvy (16:11):
Once they're ready to kind of go there, we
can go there yeah, I'm noticingmore and more clients really do
appreciate that if theirtherapist has some sort of
insight or commonality to whatthey're going through yeah, I
(16:32):
mean, at the very least, a lotof my clients come to me because
they might be Asian and theyjust want to, you know, gets it.
Lan Nguyen (16:39):
They don't want to explain family dynamics, filial
piety, the pressures of like,you know, conforming and an
obedience, all of those kind oflike very anti-individualism
sort of like topics, but youknow, very much kind of more
(17:01):
held in esteem for a lot of thecollectivist societies,
literally, you know, of myculture, asian, whether it be
certain other pacific islanderkind of populations, or maybe
just generally people of coloryeah, I was one of a couple of
(17:22):
my podcasts um interviews before.
Christina McKelvy (17:25):
We talked a lot about how a lot of
psychology is very um western,normative and male-centric.
You know the ivory towers, likefreud and young and stuff like
that, yeah, and does it reallyspeak to a lot of individuals
nowadays, even generation,generationally and like you said
, you know, um asian pacificislander people of color, like
(17:48):
it's not what we're, what wewere taught or I was taught 10
years ago.
It doesn't really align.
Lan Nguyen (17:54):
Yeah, time yeah, I mean I've had my slew of, like
you know, going through themental health system and being
told well, just don't listen toyour parents, and I'm like
that's not that easy what thatmeans.
You know that basically meansgetting disowned in a lot oh
yeah, I mean maybe good forclinical and kind of personal
(18:18):
disclosure kind of stuff.
But I have been disowned, sothere there's elements of that
in my story as well.
But I also have like aredemption arc where I'm no
longer disowned and so there's alot of pieces of like healing
that, um, I, I can meet clientswhere they're at, I can
understand, I can kind ofmeasure the risks and the
(18:39):
benefits and the costs and kindof play it out with them.
Christina McKelvy (18:46):
Again, you're aligning with them, yeah.
Lan Nguyen (18:52):
Yeah, I do a lot of that.
I think that's why clients cometo see me.
I think they find me like.
You get it, You're personable.
I like that.
You have lived experience.
You know you're not speakingfrom just like your textbook
knowledge.
Right, I'm not lecturing them.
I can actually relate, havinggone through my own mental
health issues, my own trauma, myown you know therapy experience
(19:16):
.
And letting them know this is,you know, maybe it's not normal
that you don't feel comfortabletalking to your therapist, or
maybe you should exploredifferent options.
Or maybe I'm not, you know, thebest therapist for you because
that's not within my scope ofpractice.
So I do love to be able toequip my clients with a
(19:36):
knowledge base that allows themto make informed decisions, so
they know that they have options, which I never really
understood, that that was athing in the mental health
system we were taught blankslate, you know don't disclose,
or very minimal, and I haven'tfound that helpful.
Christina McKelvy (19:57):
I do believe you don't want to disclose too
much or disclose the unnecessarythings, of course.
Yeah, well, you know youmentioned, so you were disowned
and then you were not disowned,so that's like your redemption
arc.
Yeah, a little bit more aboutthat.
Lan Nguyen (20:12):
It's like a like I mean, it's a really cool story.
I mean so my faith background.
I do identify as Christian.
I do strongly, you know,practice my faith.
I would say I'm pretty devoutin fear.
(20:46):
It was primarily because ofwhat I knew about my identity in
Christ, which meant fear wasnot part of the equation.
Right, if there is fear there,there's no love.
And I had recently you knowthis is back in 2016.
2016, I had gone on a short-termmissions trip to Indonesia
where I learned, like a lot of Inot only just was able to
(21:09):
contribute in my very small waywe helped out an orphanage, we
held a vacation, bible study,but Bible school for the kids,
um, but they taught me so muchabout love and about patience
and about healing.
I got to share parts of mystory with them and they were
touched by it.
You know all of this withtranslators and of course, you
(21:31):
know I don't have language, butcoming back from that, I
realized that my dynamics withineven just going on that trip
was a lot of it was based infear.
I didn't want to tell mycoworkers that I was going on a
mission trip because I was likethey're going to think I'm weird
or they're going to judge me orthey're going to fire Like my
(21:51):
boss is going to fire me becauseI'm going to be gone for two
weeks.
My parents aren't of the samereligious background faith
background as me, so I wasafraid they wouldn't improve and
they they did, fortunately.
But there was a lot of fearabout telling them about why I
was doing this and I needed tofundraise and do all these sorts
(22:12):
of things in order to affordthe trip.
When I came back, my now husband.
He proposed to me and it wasmet with a lot of I wouldn't say
they were approving.
I showed my dad my ring and hejust frowned at me and shook his
head.
He didn't say any words.
(22:33):
He just looked at me, shook hishead in disappointment and said
nothing and I was like he late.
You know, I was elated.
I was like dad, look, itfinally happened.
Like I've been dating him foryou know, four years, like this
is happening.
My dad said nothing.
My mom, I think, was like lessenthusiastic as well and I was
(22:57):
living with them at the time.
But basically my storyculminates with a decision for
my husband and I to basically,in a sense, elope.
Right, they're pleasing myparents.
They had very high expectationsfor what it would look like to
get married.
I was living at home with themand they almost had this
(23:19):
sentiment of, like traditionalAsian culture, you don't leave
the home if you're a girl untilyou get married, and so, in a
way, my husband thought he wasrescuing me by, like marrying me
off and you know, is yourhusband part of the same culture
?
Christina McKelvy (23:36):
is he?
Lan Nguyen (23:36):
yes, he is okay, yeah, so the language barrier is
not there.
The cultural barrier might bebecause he's from a different
region in terms of also likesocioeconomic status, like I
would say.
My parents are like uppermiddle class to upper class.
You know my dad's very muchlike he.
(23:59):
He thinks education iseverything.
You know higher education iseverything.
Be better, do more, study more.
My husband, his parents, didn'tgo to college.
They are working class, kind ofblue collar.
They've made it kind of just byworking hard and doing kind of
(24:20):
sometimes menial jobs and sovery different kind of.
You know, we have the sameculture, we're both Vietnamese
and Vietnamese American, but ina, in a lot of ways, very
different culturally.
It's almost like prince and thepauper or something like that,
just very just out there, Idon't know, kind of Romeo and
(24:41):
Juliet, just like SES, rightsocioeconomic status yes, ses
socioeconomic status, just notnot there where tears, I guess.
Um, of course, my mom wanted meto marry rich, right?
Um, my dad was saying no to no.
You need to be self-sustaining,because he saw his sister
(25:05):
undergo some kind of tragedywhere she had to end up being
like the primary breadwinner,right.
So, in his mind, don't dependon anybody.
Use your wits, be better,because you're a minority.
Christina McKelvy (25:17):
You know work hard.
Lan Nguyen (25:19):
So I had almost like the expectation to be the man,
you know, stereotypically inAsian culture, but also the
woman.
So, I don't know, confusing,very confusing.
You know, they have a different, uh, faith background.
They didn't like that.
We both identified as Christian.
So it ultimately came down tomy dad telling me you're not
(25:42):
going to get married, you cannotget married.
I command you, you know, youmust obey me, do not get married
.
Um, we got married.
We invited them.
(26:11):
My mom criticized ourinvitation.
She just said we were making amistake.
My brother was I have threeolder brothers um, only one of
them attended my wedding.
They were all invited, but theother two aligned with my
parents and said you're breakingup the family, you're hurting
mom and dad, so that thatstarted like about six months of
(26:34):
just no contact.
And my dad, you know, kicked usout of the house, said like we,
if we don't even know you, howcan you be a Christian when you
do this?
You would only, you would evenbetray your own family and call
yourself a Christian.
A lot of hard things I had tohear as I was packing up and
moving out my mom, you know,maybe this might, I don't know
(27:01):
trigger warning, I guess.
Um, my mom, um, basically saidshe wished she had died on my
wedding day.
Yeah, she wished, and she evenbrought God into the equation.
She was like I wish God hadkilled me so very, um, extreme
statements of like suicidalgesturing.
(27:22):
She said that she lost two ofher children that day because my
brother walked me down theaisle and she no longer regarded
me as her own child.
So she only had two out of fourkids at that point.
A lot of ridiculous things, youknow.
They both told me not to tellanybody about our marriage.
If you tell us, shame, yeah, alot of shame.
(27:45):
If you tell grandma she's goingto have a heart attack because
how could you do this, how couldyou be like this?
Um, the redemption arc isbasically I mean, I still held
true to my faith.
You know, my, my wedding daywas beautiful.
I mean I still held true to myfaith.
You know, my my wedding day wasbeautiful.
60 of my closest friends and,well, family from my family of
(28:07):
faith, right, so spiritual kindof mentor, mother, father,
figures, um, you know, attended.
It was beautiful.
Um, it was like a great day um,that same evening.
So my, my wedding anniversaryis coming up.
It's actually the 23rd ofDecember.
Christina McKelvy (28:24):
Oh, congratulations.
Oh, right before Christmas,that's a lot of celebration in a
row, yeah.
Lan Nguyen (28:30):
I mean it's interesting.
It was only that way because wegot married on our five-year
dating anniversary and I was inschool when we started dating,
right?
So I came home for the holidaysand that's when he asked me out
and we just decided why notmake that our wedding
anniversary date as well?
So actually my husband, like hesaid, he's going shopping for
(28:54):
our anniversary gift right now.
We'll see how he does.
Christina McKelvy (29:00):
There we go yeah.
Lan Nguyen (29:01):
But it will be our seven year anniversary and, uh,
but at the time, right, Sixmonths or so of not being sure
if I was still under theirinsurance because it was messy.
Six months of not hearing frommy siblings or only hearing from
them to say that you, youmessed up, that you like damaged
(29:24):
everything.
Six months of being, like,revoked from family gatherings
just a lot of, like, confusion.
But I had a lot of healingmoments with my community
outside of that.
So the redemption basicallycomes when I decide for mother's
day and father's day followingmy wedding, to send them both a
(29:49):
letter separately to justacknowledge and honor the parent
that they were right.
I didn't acknowledge all theways they messed me up.
I want you to focus and say youknow, mom, I still appreciate
you for demonstrating generosity.
I still want to honor you forbeing a loving, you know
(30:13):
contributing, you knowhardworking woman, very, very
hospitable, very, very sweetkind of woman.
Right, I wrote that in a letter.
I sent it with a Polaroidpicture.
It happened to be aroundMother's Day at my church and
they had Polaroid cameras so youcan write letters to your moms.
(30:34):
I used that opportunity tohonor my mom and I felt that
conviction because of thatSunday sermon which was about
honoring your mom.
Even though she might not be thebest but there are still
qualities that you can stilllook back on and appreciate.
She was your mom for a reason.
(30:55):
Similarly, I reached out to mydad for father's day.
Very similar message of youknow he provided, he was
hardworking, he was a strong,sacrificial sort of person.
You know, very I think I get alot of my humor from him.
So aspects of that that I hadto, you know, call out and
(31:18):
admire and honor.
And as soon as I did that emailstarted coming, my dad emailed
me back hey, when are we goingto meet up?
Hey, we're ready to talk again.
Interestingly enough, when wedo meet up and my dad says, hey,
we're going to sit down andpray, he prays over our meeting
(31:38):
and he basically says I have adaughter again and I am so
thankful she's here.
And I could tell my mom was alittle, a little dragging her
feet on this about likerecognizing that I was married
and now she has a son, yeah,through my husband, you know.
(32:00):
But it was interesting to saythat they both were able to
acknowledge it and they wantedto celebrate.
So they kind of did like a minipublic dinner wedding thing for
me and my husband, just tointroduce us as married to the
rest of the family, which a lotof the family knew, but they
(32:24):
just didn't.
They weren't allowed to talkabout it, I guess.
So I mean at this point it'sbeen like pretty good, I think,
that healing, I mean maybe Iwould say even that boundary of
setting that with my parents.
They crossed me in that waybecause I think they know they
(32:45):
could lose me again in somesense.
Yeah.
So there were times where Ifelt like, oh my gosh, they are
only 10 to 15 minutes away fromme.
They could show up at mydoorstep at any time and start,
you know, pestering me orinvading my space or, you know,
criticizing me.
It never happened and I thinkmaybe it was because they knew
(33:09):
they couldn't take that chancewith me.
I had already grown up.
I was now a married woman andhopefully they saw me more as an
adult rather than their baby.
Christina McKelvy (33:21):
Hmm, that transition that a lot of parents
have to go through.
Lan Nguyen (33:26):
Yeah, I know, for my dad, up until I got married,
that was something he likepleaded with me.
He was like I know you want tomove out, but I just want to see
you, even just like your shadow, when you come home at night.
We don't have to say anythingto each other, I just want to
know that you're around.
And he was, you know, you know,getting more sentimental.
(33:46):
He sent letters to my brothersaying things that he regretted
or that he wished he did, and hecried and like this is a man
that does not cry.
So he was getting very, verysentimental and kind of mushy,
and so I knew he couldn't becomelike an empty nester.
(34:07):
He was dreading it and I thinkthat's ultimately why he said
you cannot get married, right?
Christina McKelvy (34:14):
Are you the youngest?
I am the youngest and you'rethe daughter.
Lan Nguyen (34:18):
And the daughter.
I know, and my dad has told meon many occasions, you are my
favorite child and I would belike, yeah, you can't say that,
it's so jacked up oh, now you'retelling the whole world.
I know I mean they'll find outeventually.
I do want to read more theyhave to know someday eventually
(34:39):
yeah yeah, I I have to saythings have come a long way.
I don't really understand why ithad to be so dramatic, but in a
way, maybe that's just how myfamily understands boundaries.
It's not until you like a huge,severe consequence where they
(35:00):
understand.
Christina McKelvy (35:01):
Oh, they mean business severe consequence,
where they understand oh, theymean business, and I'm maybe
that you would only know was howthey understood boundaries from
their parents and how theirparents understood boundaries
from their grandparents, and, oh, I wouldn't even know that
because, like I said, my momkeeps a tight lid on her history
.
Lan Nguyen (35:21):
I've never met my grandmother on that side.
I've never met certain siblingson that side.
She only talks about them inlike passing by.
But yeah, I think, for my dadespecially, I think I know his
trauma right.
He's never been hugged by hisown dad.
His dad never told him he lovedhim.
Christina McKelvy (35:42):
My dad's a hugger because he's the opposite
direction.
Lan Nguyen (35:44):
He was like if I never got hugs, I'm gonna make
sure my kids hug me yeah yeah,hug your shadow.
Yeah, he's like a physicaltouch guy.
So it's interesting how he hetook that and, though for a
while it did traumatize mebecause I didn't want to hug my
dad because I was afraid of him.
He's terrified of him.
(36:05):
He was scary.
I understand now that he waslike trying to reclaim his own
hurt, never got hugged by hisdad.
He never got told I love you.
My dad's very, I guess, on that.
In that sense he's veryaffectionate.
He's never experienced any ofthat.
He's more's very affectionate.
If he's never experienced anyof that.
He's more on the affectionateside.
Christina McKelvy (36:26):
He, when I see him nowadays he'll just be
like where's my hug open armsand he'll be, like you know,
very, very affectionate in thatway he's reclaiming, like you
said, he's reclaiming that andby doing that it is changing
future generations in thatgenerational tree, the
(36:47):
generational patterns, oh yeahyeah, like we've.
Lan Nguyen (36:51):
We've done some like overhaul in this garden.
So this tree, some of thoselike branches that have been
rotting, they've been pruned.
The roots probably had to beretrained to go a different
route.
I don't know.
I think there's a lot of workin the family that I can see.
Like I, I pride myself on beinga cycle breaker.
(37:14):
Right, if it started with meand it's kind of gotten ripple
effects, then I am happy andpleased to say that it's
happening.
It's happening now rather thangenerations later.
Christina McKelvy (37:42):
Being a psycho breaker, and I
millennials, gen zers I feelthat is, at least as therapists,
that is a lot of the focus likewe are going to be psycho
breakers right, like we don'twant this dysfunction to
continue.
Lan Nguyen (37:58):
It stops with me.
Yeah, I'm gonna my healing andI see so much of that in my
office, right With my sessions,my clients a lot of them come to
me.
I don't know how this works.
I've never had therapy before.
I don't really want to tell myparents I'm in therapy.
They don't get it.
They think I'm crazy or theythink therapy is silly or just
(38:20):
for crazy people.
So I see a lot of that.
I mean, I'm the first person inmy family, my immediate family,
to get therapy.
I think one of my brothers hasgotten gotten therapy, not sure
about the other two, but I dosee a lot of healing happening
and I guess maybe it startedbackwards with me, right?
Christina McKelvy (38:44):
It's usually the daughters.
Lan Nguyen (38:47):
What can we say?
Christina McKelvy (38:49):
I think, we're just smarter.
Yeah, so I always.
Where did I hear that?
It's usually the daughters.
So we're getting close to timeand I hear the redemption arc
reminds me of hope andresilience, and that is what my
podcast is about.
You know, hope, healing andresilience.
So what brings you hope?
Lan Nguyen (39:13):
Well, I would.
I would bring it back to myfaith in Jesus Christ, because
you know, I'm a very differentperson before I met Jesus.
I have hope because I haveJesus.
I used to be a very pessimistic, kind of nihilistic person.
I don't know if I would be cutout for this field if I were
(39:36):
just to tell them all my clientsyou know life sucks, you're
just going to die and that's it.
But I would say, would say, yeah, I can't do the things that
I've done, for instance, reachout that olive branch with
honoring my parents rightwithout even hearing a sorry
from them or any kind ofadmission of guilt or
(39:59):
responsibility on their part.
So I feel like a lot of mymotivation and conviction and my
worldview has been the hopethat I have in a God that is so
much bigger than me, so muchmore loving, so much more wise.
I know I'm so finite and Ithink that's where I find so
(40:22):
much hope and so much peace andknowing that I don't have to
have it all together, but I havesomeone who is on my side and
is fighting on my behalf and thevictory is already there.
Yeah, so I would say my faith.
Really I don't know if I coulddo what I do on the daily
without my faith Cause I'm sureyou've probably met therapists
(40:45):
that are burnt out, jaded.
I think that's generallynaturally what's going to happen
If you hear enough bad news dayin and day out, or you're stuck
with clients who aren't makingprogress, or things just seem
bleak and hopeless.
But I know, at the end of theday, it's not about what I can
(41:06):
do, it's about what is beingdone through me.
I have a hope that is bigger,more beautiful, it's eternal,
it's just beyond me, so I livefor that.
Christina McKelvy (41:19):
Thank you, that was beautiful Well.
Lan Nguyen (41:22):
I'm glad to share that.
I'm really glad to be able toshare a lot.
I didn't think I'd go into somuch of my story, but any
consolation, there is hope.
Christina McKelvy (41:31):
There's always hope, sharing your story
and being very vulnerable.
You know, with my listeners andyou know it sounds like a lot
(41:55):
of the takeaways is being acycle breaker and honoring your
parents where they were at too,and being open to healing.
And yeah, thank you, you'rewelcome, you, you're welcome.
Another great interview.
(42:15):
You can find Lon on Instagramand YouTube.
I will put that in the shownotes along with her website.
Lon specializes mostly withAAPI or BIPOC.
Adults, millennials who arecoping with intergenerational
childhood or complex trauma,narcissistic abuse, codependency
, grief and first time therapyseekers are also additional
clientele she works with.
She helps those through datingand self-confidence, attachment
(42:36):
issues and unhealthy familydynamics.
Again, you can find all of herinformation in the show notes,
where you can follow her onInstagram, linkedin, facebook
and her webpage.
Thank you,
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