November 7, 2023 • 50 mins
Addiction grips your life and drowns you in turmoil, but you find a lifeline in a place least expected – the military. Meet Jamie Hairston, a living testament to the power of transformation and resilience. Jamie takes us on her journey from a life marred by meth addiction, through her time in the military, to her career transition into writing. This episode is a deep dive into Jamie's life, where fiction serves as a medium to uncover her raw, authentic truth.
Jamie’s story is a fascinating exploration of this incredible transformation. Jamie not only battled addiction but also completed her bachelor's and master's degrees. She shares poignant insights from her time working with inmates in a state prison and offers a sobering perspective on the high cost of drugs behind bars. This episode is a testament to Jamie's unyielding spirit and her ability to turn adversity into a life dedicated to helping others.
Changing careers is daunting, especially when it's a leap from a traditional job to becoming a writer. Jamie opens up about her decision to pivot, the challenges she faced, and her journey towards embracing her lifelong dream of writing. As she charts her future plans and discusses the importance of discernment and consistency, she gives invaluable advice to those considering a similar path. So, if you're ready to be inspired, join us as Jamie takes us through her extraordinary life journey, from addiction to redemption and beyond.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina McKelvy (00:00):
Book of Olnage Stories of Hope.
Healing and Resilience.
I'm your host, christineMcKelvie.
Today we speak with authorJamie Herston.
She is the writer of theMemoirs of the Black Sheep's
series, a fictional story aboutRenee, but based on stories from
her own life.
We talk about how Jamie joinedthe military as a way to find
stability, her history throughdrug addiction and the journey
(00:21):
as a substance abuse counselorand writer.
Stay tuned, welcome to HopologyStories of Hope, healing and
(00:48):
Resilience.
I'm your host, christineMcKelvie.
Today we have author JamieHerston joining us.
Hi, jamie, how are you Good?
How are you?
I'm doing well, thank you,thank you, it's.
It feels earlier than it should.
I know it's only 10 o'clock, atleast where I'm at, but feels a
(01:08):
lot earlier, feels like itshould be six.
Jamie Hairston (01:11):
It does.
It's the Mondays.
Christina McKelvy (01:14):
The Mondays, and I feel like I should change
my interview days to a differentday.
I don't have Mondays becausethat's my day off with my other
job, but you have the Mondayblues.
So, jamie, tell our listeners alittle bit about you.
You know, I know I reached outto you on written three books
(01:35):
and so, yeah, just tell us alittle bit about you.
Jamie Hairston (01:38):
OK, so shoot, I don't even know where to start.
So I am.
I am an author.
I've written three books.
They are inspired by my truelife but they are fictionalized.
I am noticing that with everybook there's a little more
fiction, but there's still likeelements of the truth in there.
(02:00):
Basically, I started my journeya long time ago, yeah, and let's
see.
So I was married to a man who Ihad met in high school and we
had a few kids together.
After my father passed away, hekind of ended up getting into
(02:27):
meth.
So, to be honest, he had alwaysbeen a drug dealer but it was
like weed and to me, like I'venever thought weed was that
serious and so.
But then after my father passedaway, he was really honestly,
it started like he was justtrying to kind of take care of
my family, because at the timewe were living with my mom and
dad when my father passed awayand then, like my mom's house
(02:49):
was in foreclosure and so it wasjust like all of it was just
piling up and he was really justtrying to help us kind of get
through things and eventuallymeth kind of won him over and it
led to like a really tumultuousbreakup.
So I eventually ended up usingas well.
(03:11):
I guess I kind of was like, ifyou can't beat him, join him.
Christina McKelvy (03:15):
I was going to ask if that influenced him
selling meth and with meth beingaround, right, easy access,
right.
Jamie Hairston (03:22):
And that's like what's kind of ironic, because
he had been approached beforeabout like selling meth or
whatever and he was like no.
I'm not going to do that blah,blah, blah, and then, like just
the perfect storm of eventshappened to where he was like
okay, and then he was like I'mgoing to sell it but I'm not
going to use it.
And then, like you know, andthat was my first lesson in, if
you don't set a boundary event,you know, draw a line in the
(03:44):
sand.
Eventually there is no line.
So anyways, so, needless to say, over the course of probably
the next one or two yearsbecause it was it's all started
my father passed away in 2002.
I kind of started using meth.
I think the first time I usedmeth it was like around 2004.
(04:05):
And it was like not long afterI'd had my third son and I
always say October, I don't knowwhy, so maybe October or four,
maybe not.
It was a long time ago, so yeah, so I ended up using like just
kind of gradually, justfunctionally.
He wasn't living with me, I hadthree small kids, I was trying
to work a job, I was livingliterally off of like $800 a
(04:27):
month.
And like I think about that nowand I'm like, oh my God, that's
crazy.
But like I was lucky becauselike my mom was my landlord and
all the utilities and everythingwere in their name and I only
had to pay them X amount ofdollars.
So everything I had left overwent to like food and gas and
whatever, and so anyway,needless to say, in 2006, I was
(04:49):
very, very, very heavily using,and that's kind of where my
journey starts and that's kindof what you see in the story.
So my character in the story,the character that's based off
of me in the story, is Renee,and so a lot of what's in the
(05:10):
first book is very true.
Some things are taken out oforder.
Of course, all names have beenchanged and that's because
initially, when I startedwriting this, I really didn't
know where I was going to takeit.
So, and also like somebody maynot like what I have to say, so
it's easier just to protecttheir identity.
(05:31):
My now ex-husband has been inand out of trouble with the loss
, so I also just didn't want todo anything that was going to
kind of jeopardize whateversituation he's in.
Yeah, so I ended up eventuallykind of like not really getting
my shit together, but getting ittogether enough that joined the
(05:51):
service, which this is kind ofan ironic story.
I mean, this is during the Bushadministration and basically if
you had a pulse you can get in.
I did a little bit of omittingof information to get in and I
did require a waiver.
(06:13):
It's like a headache, butsomehow I ended up getting in
and eventually the Army actuallyfigured it out.
But by the time they figured itout I had been in a while, so I
was good.
Christina McKelvy (06:22):
But needless to say.
So it was the Army, it was thebranch that you were in.
Jamie Hairston (06:27):
Right, the Army is the yeah.
So, needless to say, when Ileft, I was so worried about not
being able to keep my shittogether that I signed a
six-year contract Because I waslike this will force me to care.
Christina McKelvy (06:42):
Discipline from an outside source.
Jamie Hairston (06:44):
And I remember at that time a friend of mine
was like you know, they havetwo-year contracts, right, and I
was like, yeah, but I need asix-year one.
And then the other kind ofanomaly is that when I went to
sign my paperwork after I haddone all of the intake and
everything and then I came tosigning my contract, it was nine
(07:07):
days Nine days from when I wentto the processing station to I
had to go back and fly to bootcamp.
So I remember when I signed mypaperwork I called my mom and I
was like, hey, so I'm leaving.
It was in February of 07, likeda-da-da day, and she was like
(07:31):
we don't even have time to throwyou a going away party, like
nine days.
And I was just like, if I don'tleave now, it's like I'm going
to have too much time and I'mgoing to want to change my mind
and I was just so immature, likewhen I think about it, I was 23
years old.
I was still so immature, like,so indecisive, and I could
(07:52):
waffle from one moment to thenext, and that was the only
thing I was self-aware aboutreally at the time was like if I
don't go, I'm going to changemy mind.
So it kind of led me on thisjourney to where I am.
So I did serve five years and Iwas like I'm going to change my
mind eight months and like 29days or something.
Christina McKelvy (08:14):
Five years, eight months, 29 days, very
specific.
Jamie Hairston (08:17):
Yeah, well, because so I actually was
scheduled to get out in Februaryof 2013.
I did give birth in I'm reallythinking about it September of
2011, and the unit I was thenwas actually about to deploy,
and so it was really it's like aweird situation.
(08:38):
So I was just trying to writeout the last little bit of my
contract, but they were going tobe losing a body because I
wasn't going to be able todeploy because, right before we
found out, we were deploying theperson who was my babysitter.
(09:01):
We had some conflict and shewas no longer doing it.
So in the Army, well, in allbranches of service they have,
you have to have a person whocan watch your kids, like
whether you go to the field orthe gun range or whatever.
And I no longer had that personand I was stationed in upstate
New York and all of my familywas back in Arizona.
(09:23):
And I mean, even when I had mydaughter, I was by myself.
I had to find like I had to goto my unit and be like, can I
have a co-worker with me so Idon't have to deliver by myself?
And they were really cool.
They let me have two people,and then a friend of mine had
actually come up and everything.
So it was, it was cool, butanyway.
(09:45):
So, needless to say, I ended upgetting out a little bit early
under the no family carewhatever, but I mean it was
still.
It was an honorable discharge,and it was more because the unit
was leaving.
It was cool because they hadstarted the paperwork like a
year before I was supposed todischarge.
But I worked in the officewhere the paperwork was done and
(10:10):
so I knew all the tricks toextend it because I was really
wanting to finish my six years.
But I was also like I'm going tohave to get out before they
leave.
So I managed to stay until,let's see, september, october,
november, december, like fivemonths before my contract was up
.
So I was able to like reallykind of drag it out because I
(10:31):
really didn't want to leave, andit was like unfortunate that
everything just kind of happenedthe way it did, but anyway, so
I got out.
But before I got before I wasgoing to get out, like I had
started going to school and andthis is actually before I even
was pregnant and I was likewhat's the easiest degree I can
get while I'm in here, you know,because while I was in they
(10:52):
would pay for X amount ofdollars for so many glasses.
So I chose psychology because Ifelt like that was an easy
degree I could do from anywhere,which I wasn't wrong.
You just can't do much with abachelor.
Christina McKelvy (11:04):
Yeah, you have to.
Jamie Hairston (11:06):
usually it's not a terminal degree, right, right
and so, and what's really funnyis because I was actually
looking at bartending school butsomehow I ended up picking
psychology.
So the same yeah, you're notwrong, so anyway.
So I ended up doing thepsychology for a little bit and
(11:29):
then, once I knew I was gettingout, I really started like
focusing.
So I was going to school fulltime while I was still in
because I was trying to get asmuch done as I could Because I
really had no plan at this point.
My plan originally was to getout after my six years and go
home and really just spend timewith my kids, because even
though I had like a relationshipand everything with them, still
(11:50):
I had spent a lot of time away,you know, and so I had no plan
whatever.
Got out, got my bachelor's inpsychology I did, really I was.
So I went from being a methaddict to taking all of that
energy in thinking about methand using meth and applying it
(12:12):
to school, and I really actuallydid really really good.
If I wouldn't have had to takea math class or a statistics
class, I would have had anamazing GPA, but math and
statistics are not my forte, soI think I only ended up with
like a 3.63 or something, but Ihad initially been making the
dean's list.
(12:32):
like when I first started I waslike 4.0, 3.9, you know.
So I was still kind of like, oh, you know, I'm so sad.
But then when I finished that Ihad already been researching
what I was going to do for mymaster's and I went and chose
the longest master's program Icould find which is my degree
(12:52):
has this really long, fancy name?
I have a master's of science inChristian counseling of
substance abuse and addictivedisorders.
So I literally took six extraclasses.
So I have a master's inaddiction counseling but, I,
also had a focus in Christiancounseling, and that was before
(13:16):
I was, on my whole, not sureabout Christianity journey.
But anyway, so I did thatprogram because I had such bad
anxiety that I wasn't sure how Iwas going to do the internship.
And so it was, and I knew likeI was going to have to do that
(13:37):
in person, and so I wanted thelongest amount of time possible
to like prepare myself for that,and so I ended up being a three
year master's instead of a twoyear master's and being the
queen of biting off more thanyou can chew.
I couldn't couldn't do thatwithout thinking about my PhD,
(13:58):
of course.
So I started looking at anotherschool and I actually, in my,
during my internship, which Icompleted at an Arizona State
Prison, I started going toschool for my PhD while I was
still working on my master's,like a crazy woman.
Christina McKelvy (14:16):
So so you were interning the state prison
for your master's and then soyou weren't done with your
master's and I started a PhD.
Jamie Hairston (14:26):
Correct yeah.
I was paying out of pocket forit, because you can only have
student aid at one school.
Christina McKelvy (14:31):
Yeah, so yeah .
Jamie Hairston (14:33):
So my crazy butt and I did.
I managed to get four A's, Ihad two full time master's
classes and two full time PhDclasses, and I did a residency
which was like a four day eventin San Diego.
So and then after that semester, I realized I was crazy.
(14:54):
So I decided I was not going tocontinue trying to do that all
at once, so I ended up finishingmy master's, worked at the
prison for about a year and ahalf.
That was a really amazingexperience.
One thing that I've learned isthat if you can work with
inmates, you can pretty muchwork with anybody, because you
(15:17):
it's.
It's an experience I reallydon't even know how to explain.
So.
None of them need drugtreatment.
They were able to quit anytimethey wanted to, and a lot of
people you know they stay soberin prison just because the
politics of using drugs inprison can be very dangerous.
It's even more expensive to bea drug addict in prison, to be
(15:40):
honest.
So what's the?
Christina McKelvy (15:42):
cause of that .
Jamie Hairston (15:42):
Sorry, I don't mean to oh, so because they
don't have like money,everything has to be traded.
So I mean you'll, you'll evensee like extortion, where
somebody is commissary, is goingto go to this other person
because they have this habit.
It's just getting people tosmuggle in drugs is high risk,
(16:06):
so it just it's a very, veryexpensive thing to do and you
know, honestly, you can find alot more drugs in prison than
you can outside of it, which iswhy, like one of my whole
soapbox things is that's whysending people to prison for
drugs isn't really fixinganything.
(16:27):
But anyway, so, yeah, so thatwas a really interesting
experience.
I really enjoyed it.
I got my license there and then,after I and I was there for a
little over a year, it was, itwas a really good paying job too
, but there were some otherissues that I just decided it
was best if I left, and so Iended up working with children
(16:56):
and very different prisoners tochildren.
Well, it is, and it isn'tbecause, like so now I've had
this perspective on addictionfrom so many angles, because I
was an addict.
I was the wife of an addict, Iam the sister of an alcoholic, I
know somebody who's been inprison, so yeah, so it was
(17:20):
interesting because a lot of thekids that I worked with ended
up being DCS involved.
And guess what?
A lot of the parents had drugproblems or families in prison
or whatever.
So so it was so I got a wholedifferent perspective because my
personal addiction story isjust such an anomaly to me
(17:43):
because I've never really seenanybody with one like mine.
A lot of them are very similar,but I had a very supportive
family.
My kids went to live with mymom.
She eventually adopted them,but we still had like a very
co-parencing relationship and alot of these kids were either
completely separated from theirfamilies or their parents never
(18:04):
wanted to be involved, or theparents were struggling, like I
was so many years ago andcouldn't get their shit together
so they couldn't get their kids.
So it was just such a differentexperience.
I remember one of the kids thatI worked with was this really
adorable little baby and his momended up passing away of an
(18:32):
overdose and like that was myfirst really experience with
like client loss.
Just because she had she was myclient too.
She was coming in to work hercase plan and that was my first
thing and so like it was goodfor me because I was like, if
ever I needed a reminder of whyto stay sober, like that was it.
It was just, it was.
(18:53):
It was difficult, but the placewhere I was working had a very
toxic culture, which was sadbecause I actually probably
could have stayed doing that jobdespite everything.
But I had a boss whomicromanaged like everything,
and I had a case load of.
(19:17):
At one point I had a case loadof 110 clients because so many
people had left.
We're supposed to have a max of25.
Christina McKelvy (19:25):
I can relate one of my past jobs.
Yeah, yeah school case load of120 and I was also.
I was the therapist and thecase manager.
And talk about being throwninto the deep end.
Jamie Hairston (19:39):
Yeah, and then this this was my first
introduction to billable hours,so, and it's the only job I've
ever had where, as a therapist,billable, billable, billable.
So even with that case load, Iwasn't meeting my billable hours
.
And that is to me, honestly,that's a.
It's a Medicaid scam and I haveno problem saying this, because
(20:03):
I will scream it from the therooftops that anybody who takes
Medicaid, and only Medicaid, isa Medicaid scam.
And my reasoning for that is ifyou get them on the phone for
five minutes, you get to billfor 15 minutes.
Christina McKelvy (20:19):
It's a client hour contact.
When we're talking aboutbillable hours, it's right,
right it's.
Jamie Hairston (20:24):
And that's me like, and I understand like you
have to set like a linesomewhere.
I do understand that.
But like our mission in lifewas to, if you didn't have
anybody, call 20 people in thathour and bill 15 minutes, and to
me that is a scam.
Christina McKelvy (20:41):
Yeah.
Jamie Hairston (20:42):
What other industry Are you allowed to do
that outside of law?
You know, and and law iscompletely different, because
you might have six peopleworking on a case.
This is one person.
It rub me the wrong way becausethey are always like this is so
client centered.
No, it wasn't.
I was.
I was client centered.
I cared about, you know, eachclient.
(21:05):
But I felt like it takes awaythe.
It takes away the genuineness.
I don't, I don't know I there'sa word I'm looking for, but
that's not it.
But it takes, it takes away therapport, it takes the
authenticity, it takes away theauthenticity of what you are
(21:26):
trying to do for your clients,when it's like, okay, I just
been five minutes checking up onso and so now let me see how I
can get them off the phone so Ican check up with somebody else,
and so to me, like that wasreally difficult, but I think,
like what really got me.
Honestly, this is it's like abizarre story, but I actually
(21:48):
had had a motorcycle accident onmy way to work and I never
missed the work.
I missed the work once for asurgery, but I planned it and I
you know whatever, but I nevermissed work.
I didn't call out ever at thisjob.
And I texted my boss and said,hey, I just had a motorcycle
accident, I'm not going to makeit in today.
When she texted me back waslike you need a doctor's note.
(22:10):
Okay, well, no shit, I just hadan accident, so kind of
planning to get one.
So I went and got the doctor'snote and I had just interviewed
for a raise because they pulleda fast one on me.
They hired me and paid me atthe non licensed rate, even
though I was licensed when I washired and I let it go because I
(22:34):
was like you know what is notgoing to kill me?
So, but then they wanted me touse my license to sign off on
stuff.
So I was kind of like I'm notreally comfortable doing that
till I'm getting paid at alicense wage.
So did the interview process Ihad to go through to get that
(22:57):
raise and I had done theinterview in like April, and
they were like, okay, we'regoing to increase your wage in
June.
Okay, fine, june rolls aroundNothing, july rolls around
Nothing.
So the day after I come in frommy accident was the day that my
(23:18):
raise was supposed to kick inand I looked and they it didn't
kick in and I don't know why,but it just sent me into an
emotional meltdown.
And this is like the third timethat week I had called my
husband crying because I calledhim crying over she's treating
me like a liar, and I felt likeit was so disrespectful to me
(23:38):
because I wasn't always callingout, you know.
And then I went in and theydidn't give me my raise and it
was just like one thing afteranother.
And my husband said Jamie, youhave called me three times this
week crying over this goddamnjob, quit the damn job.
And so I had to sit there andlike really think on it, because
(24:02):
I'm notorious for makingirrational decisions like that.
But for my husband to encourageit was not something I was used
to.
So I like really had to sitthere and think about it and I
was like you know what he'sright, and normally I want to
look for another job.
But I was like you know whatI'm, I'm not doing it like he's
(24:24):
right.
So me, being the bigconfrontational person I am ha,
ha, ha sarcasm I wrote my twoweeks notice note and snuck into
my boss's office on her lunchand stuck it on her desk and
then went off to because I hadto go to a client's house left
(24:48):
and their policy there was 30days, but they because they
didn't want to pay for yourinsurance.
It ends up being like the endof the week, ok, so I had my
accident, like July 2nd, and Ithink like they were like you
don't have to come back afterthe 28th or whatever you know,
whatever the end of the calendarweek was.
So I had no jobs, no prospects,nothing.
(25:09):
So I was like I don't know howI'm going to do this, but I'll
figure it out.
I'm just going to wing it.
And I ended up applying, likeback at the prison.
And then I stumbled across thenext job that I went to, which
was working in a residentialgroup home.
That job I pretty much knew Iactually, when I applied for the
job I was like I don't want towork in a group home because my
(25:31):
experience with working in grouphomes as a temp prior to this
was never good.
It was always a little bitscary or boring or like just I
was happy to do it as a tempbecause when they called me and
asked me to do it again, I couldsay no.
So I was like I don't think I'mgoing to take this job, but
(25:54):
I'll apply for it anyway.
And then when she called me andshe interviewed me, it was
basically like you can work asmuch, as little as you want to,
as long as the clients get Xamount of sessions per month.
There's X amount of groupsessions per month.
You hold this weekly meetingper month.
You can work from home half thetime.
You have to be in office, youhave to do this, this and this,
(26:16):
but very flexible.
And I was like, well, that's mykind of jam.
Christina McKelvy (26:20):
Yeah.
Jamie Hairston (26:20):
So, and I would do as much as I could Monday
through Thursday, so I wouldn'thave to come in on Fridays, and
that's what I did pretty muchuntil the pandemic hit, which
that was the whole other thingin and of itself, and then in
the middle of that job, I had mymidlife crisis, bottom line
crisis.
Yeah, yeah, I didn't.
My midlife crisis was I don'tknow what I want to be when I
(26:42):
grow up, and I just now figuredthis out.
After all this education, andone of the things that had stuck
with me, that was really kindof holding me back, was when I
had left the prison.
One of the girls there saidyou're not going to just have
all that education and use itfor nothing.
And so, like I kept thinking,I've invested all this time into
(27:03):
this education, I have to makethis my career.
Christina McKelvy (27:05):
Mm, hmm.
Jamie Hairston (27:07):
And in my midlife crisis I realized that
was bullshit.
It was bullshit too To thinkthat just because I had that
education meant I had to staystuck in that career, because
there's many, many things I mean.
I have become the master atdeescalation from my education
(27:28):
alone Period.
Christina McKelvy (27:29):
Mm, hmm, mm hmm.
Jamie Hairston (27:31):
And that's like not even experienced.
And you know, I grew up in afamily where, unfortunately,
mental illness doesn't just stopand visit one or two people.
It takes this time to get toknow everybody in the goddamn
tree.
So in the middle of my midlifecrisis, I was talking with a
colleague and I was like well, Ithink my biggest barrier is
being in recovery myself.
(27:52):
Like I think I'm getting alittle bit of the vicarious
trauma, but I also think like Idon't want to do this job
anymore.
I think maybe I need to do itfrom a different perspective and
after I went on my whole littlecrying ugly tirade about I
don't know, what I want to dowith my life.
She said you know I was thinkingabout something, so what?
(28:14):
And she said I love what I doand I will say that I'm happy to
change jobs, but I would neveras easily as you just did say
maybe I need to change careerpaths.
And you did that, and you didit without a second thought.
And she said, like I think thereal issue is like you are not
(28:36):
what you want to be when yougrow up.
And like, as much as that mightsound like she was talking to a
child, it was the best way shecould break it down for me.
Because then it hit me like Ithink she's right.
So I sat down and wrote like apros and cons list, like is this
what I wanted to do?
What happens if I quit this?
(28:56):
What do I want to do instead?
And of course, by this time Ihad published my first book.
I really got to thinking aboutit and realized that, like I had
been, I had been thinking mywhole life about writing Because
I've been writing since I waseight years old and I had just
(29:23):
published a book and I thoughtabout it and I was like you know
what?
I want?
To be a writer, and so then Ihad to talk.
So I've talked this over witheverybody but my husband at this
point and um, so I called himup and he was like you can't
keep doing those jobs.
Christina McKelvy (29:47):
This is very similar to your last one Right,
or maybe not similar, but assimilar Right.
Jamie Hairston (29:54):
But then when I but then when I finally filled
him in on this entireconversation that I had had with
my therapist, with my colleague, with my A former coworker,
like once I had really gone intoit with him, he's like okay,
now, when you explain it likethat, I understand it, but I
still need time.
So like think about it and Iwas like well, I'm not trying to
(30:16):
quit today, so you're good.
Christina McKelvy (30:19):
Right.
Jamie Hairston (30:20):
And you know, it took a while and then it was
like what am I going to do if Idon't work?
You know, and I'm in a uniquesituation that I have income
outside of what I did.
So when I finally, like when wewere finally comfortable, I
finally said okay, I'm going to,I'm going to do this thing, I'm
going to quit and I'm going towrite full time.
(30:41):
And that's kind of what led meto my books.
Initially, I honestly was likeI'm going to end up going back
to work.
Christina McKelvy (30:55):
But here I am , I'm going to quit a little bit
later Almost exactly two yearsBecause I quit.
Jamie Hairston (31:04):
my last day was June 30, I think.
No it was no, it was May 31st,because I remember it was a
holiday weekend.
Christina McKelvy (31:15):
And I remember we worked together, so
that's why I remember this.
Jamie Hairston (31:19):
It was a holiday weekend and I specifically went
in on the holiday because Ijust knew they were going to try
to not pay me for that day, andsure, I was absolutely right.
So I had to write themafterwards to get my last day of
pay, and it was the day beforemy birthday.
That's why I remember, becausethe very next day we went to
Vegas for my birthday, my sonand I.
(31:40):
We went to Vegas so I couldplay some blackjack and yeah.
So, so, needless to say, yeahthat's.
And then now I'm just writingfull time.
And then I, oddly enough, endedup volunteering to be a
bartender.
So it was only without a jobfor like two months.
(32:00):
Volunteering to be bartending?
Yeah, I was, no, I was not.
Well, okay, so it was, youcould keep your tips, but you
didn't get paid.
So I ended up getting involvedwith the VFW veterans of foreign
wars and that's a whole otherstory in itself, but I ended up
bartending for about four orfive months there, which was
amazing.
It was fun and yes definitely alot like being a therapist.
(32:23):
The difference was customerservice was not required.
It was super nice to everybody,but I had no problem saying get
the heck out of here, or you'vehad much to drink or and even
my therapy skills carried overthere too.
We had a guy walk in who peed onhimself and I had to sit down
and be like I cannot serve youaccording to Arizona State Law
(32:45):
because you have urinatedyourself.
Like nobody wanted to have thisconversation, so it had to be
me, and you know.
So I did that for a while andthat was like really fun.
And during that process, whileI was still kind of trying to
figure everything out, I said Igot a stupid ad like the way I
come across things is alwayslike it just falls into my lap.
And so I got this ad about youcan form an LLC and get a tax
(33:09):
deduction, and blah, blah, blah,and it's like December.
Okay, so I was like great idea,because I knew I hadn't really
worked out much that year.
I wanted a good tax return, youknow so, for my LLC in December
, so that I could get thededuction, which it really
didn't end up paying off tillthe next year.
But and that was just going tobe, oh, this is how I'm going to
(33:32):
route my money so I can makesure my taxes are done correctly
.
And then I just kind of turnedit into an agency, and that's
kind of what I do now.
I work for myself.
I have a blog, which you know.
I got so busy with one of myvery high needs clients that I
(33:53):
haven't actually written in twomonths, but I have a blog now on
media, which is where I writeabout substance abuse, prison
reform.
I'm actually working on amilitary sexual trauma series.
I'm in the middle ofresearching my most current
story for an interview that Idid with a woman who experienced
(34:13):
it, and then I do editing,proofreading.
I'm in the process of workingon a steps to self publishing
guide, a course for selfpublishing, and that's just kind
of what I do now and, to behonest, I love it.
I have chronic fatigue, so I'mto a place in life where I get
(34:40):
up and work and then, between 11and two, to take a nap anywhere
in there.
And then I come back and do somework.
My garage is my office rightnow, so I have an AC in here,
but it got so hot for a fewweeks that I did the work from
six to 11, take a nap and thencome back out and work from six
(35:02):
to nine and that's just too hotto be in here, even with the AC.
But and that's just kind ofwhat I do and and I love it.
I feel I feel like the biggestimpact I can have on my
community at this point and Ithink this is why I chose not to
be a therapist anymore is I'man amazing therapist.
(35:26):
I really am, and I'm not afraidthat's like I don't have a lot
of confidence about a lot ofthings, but that was one thing.
Every job I've left, my clientswere just like why?
And to me, if you were a shittytherapist, they're not going to
care one way or the other ifyou're gone.
The hardest part of me leavingwas never leaving the job, it
(35:46):
was leaving the clients.
And you know, I think about thatand I think, like now my
biggest impact is sharing mystory, because as a therapist,
you can't share your storybecause it's one, a boundary
issue.
But the other thing that it doesis you have people comparing
(36:08):
their journey to yours and whentheir journey doesn't match up
with yours then they startthinking they'll never do it.
And I feel like as a peer, youcan share your in recovery and
it's going to affect themdifferently because you're a
peer.
But as a professional, if youwere to share that story, then
they're going to start feelinglike they're not good enough.
(36:30):
And I don't believe I don'tbelieve it's really ever
appropriate for self disclosureto be like oh, I was in recovery
too as a therapist, as a peersupport, maybe as a case manager
or maybe, but never as atherapist just because I feel
like it really messes with thattherapeutic relationship.
And so now I'm in a positionwhere I can say whatever I want
(36:52):
to is freely as I want tobecause, it's not going to cause
harm to anybody, becausethey're not my clients.
Christina McKelvy (36:58):
Now it's self disclosure.
Are you referring to mainlywithin substance abuse treatment
or all together?
Because I know.
Jamie Hairston (37:05):
I think, in general, to be honest, and a lot
of times so, like one of thequestions I got at the prison
and they were very, very, verystrict there was they had even
more boundaries, like more thanyou as an average therapist.
So, like you know, I could goto work and be like, oh, my
daughter, this or that at onejob, but at the prison I would
never do that because it's toodangerous, you know.
(37:28):
But I would say, just ingeneral, it's not good.
When, at the prison, one timesomebody asked me how would you
know anything about addiction ifyou're not an addict?
And so my response wascarefully crafted and it was I
have been affected by someonewho has struggled with addiction
, because it's not a lie, right,but it's not overly disclosing,
(37:51):
because who hasn't beenaffected by somebody with
addiction?
Most people have at least oneperson that they know of that's
been affected by addiction, andso that was my way of doing
disclosure without disclosure.
But when you say that tosomebody outside of a prison
setting, they still look at youlike you have nine eyeballs and
(38:13):
don't know what you're talkingabout.
So, and for me sometimes, whenpeople would come to me in
therapy and say I experiencedthis, this and this, and you
really don't know what it's likein my heart.
I wanted to be like, but I doknow what it's like.
You know it's just nottherapeutic to say that,
especially because then theybecome more preoccupied with
(38:34):
your story too.
Christina McKelvy (38:35):
So and it's interesting because I think
there is like a movement wherethere is some encouragement of
self disclosure, especially ifyou're LGBTQ or you know similar
cultural backgrounds.
Right, a lot of my clients arecaregivers, so I do personally
do some self disclosure of howyou know I speak caregiver as
well or have anxiety.
Jamie Hairston (38:57):
I think that's different.
Though yeah, I do think that'sdifferent because you can do.
I would say, oh, we've allstruggled with depression at
some point or we've all had aday where we felt like whatever,
because I think that there's alevel of disclosure.
But I feel like when you arelike I'm in recovery from true
(39:17):
methodic and you're working withmet, that true.
Yes, that is dangerousterritory for both of you.
I mean, I've listened to thelicensing board and I don't know
it's.
It hurts my heart to see some ofthe therapists that have gone
out and used with their clientsand so like to me.
Those are the situations in whydisclosure matter, or self
(39:39):
disclosure matters, because it'sa gray area and like that's the
one thing that is really,really hard.
Christina McKelvy (39:47):
Yeah.
Jamie Hairston (39:48):
You know some people don't.
You have to know how to readthe room really well and if you
have discernment it'll workgreat for you.
But just because maybeChristina can share her story,
and nothing comes of.
It doesn't mean that you knowMichelle over here can tell her
story, it's discernment withinself-disclosure, correct?
Christina McKelvy (40:09):
Yeah, I wanted to go back words a little
bit in your story.
Okay, I'm curious if, becauseyou mentioned that, you finally
discovered what you wanted to dowhen you grew up and at the
same time you're a very greatcounselor.
But you realize that may not bethe method or I'm losing my
(40:31):
train of thought like the way toshare your story, right, but
curious if going into counseling, getting all that education in
a way, was your way of treatingyourself or, you know, like your
own, like your ownself-treatment.
Jamie Hairston (40:48):
I think it was in a way honestly because I've
always been the problem solver.
I used to like to make a jokein the army because I was the
person who always ended upmediating actually the LBGTQ
drama.
Like I had a bunch of friendsin that community, that always
(41:10):
and I was like I'm going tostart charging y'all for therapy
, you know, and but I think Ihad a lot of it's.
Like you know, a comedian istelling jokes that come from a
place of trauma a lot of times,like if you really listen to
their jokes, right, there's sometrauma in there and I feel like
(41:32):
it's kind of the same as me,like you start discovering
things and making light of it orhealing others.
So, like a lot of people,especially people that have,
like trauma I have trauma in mybackground I think you start
wanting to you.
You become a healer, naturally,actually, because of your
(41:54):
empathy, and I think, like whathappened was I was given a
specific diagnosis that I'm notI'm not going to say what it is
because it's very signatized,but I was given a specific
diagnosis and I wanted to learnmore about that.
And then before I realized thatPTSD which ended up changing
(42:15):
everything.
So, because my PTSD diagnosisis really what's genuine, it's
like a genuine diagnosis, soit's my primary, or whatever.
And the substance abuse issecondary.
But the problem is when I wasgiven this other diagnosis.
(42:36):
It was given in the middle of acrisis.
I was given this diagnosiswhile I was in the middle of the
crisis.
However, I wanted to learneverything about it, so I think
my education did end up kind of.
I wouldn't really say it wasabout healing, it was about
understanding, but then it waslike it opened my eyes to
(42:58):
everything, because then all ofa sudden I understood everybody,
like I drive my kids crazy withit, because they'll come to me
and be like hey, I want to knowthis or that about dad and I'll
be like okay, so this isn't metalking crap.
This is me saying I understand,but he's this way because of
this, this or this, and they'llbe like stop sugarcoating at mom
(43:20):
.
We just want to know the facts.
We're not, we understand,you're not bad mouthing him, we
don't really care what thepsycho analysis is.
We just want to know this, thisand this.
And, like, I realized that I dothis with everybody.
So it'll be like, okay, Iunderstand why you're an asshole
and I know how to talk to you,but people don't really care
(43:43):
about the understanding theyjust want to be
like that person's a jerk orwhatever you know.
And so I think, like it set meon a path of healing, it set me
on a path of understanding, butit also made me extremely
intuitive and like, with theexception of a medical crisis, I
can almost always handle like amental health crisis, like I
(44:05):
can.
Just, you know, if somebody'sbleeding or needs CPR, I'm going
to panic and freeze, but ifyou're having a complete
psychotic meltdown, I got you,you know, and that's just.
It's made me very good atknowing how to like talk to
people.
I guess really is the best wayto say it.
Christina McKelvy (44:22):
Okay, Okay.
Well, let me summarize what youjust said.
You know that sounds like youknow going to school was part of
your road to recovery, becauseit made you understand yourself
and made you understand others.
It helped you interact withothers, and so that was so very
valuable for yourself and I'msure it's going to inform your
writing, like psychology, reallygood character development.
(44:45):
You know, I can see it beingvery helpful, you know, with
your writing as well.
I mean I've read both yourbooks, so I see it there.
I like to close every podcastwith a question, and the
question being is what gives youhope?
Because my podcast is calledHopeology.
Jamie Hairston (45:00):
Okay, what gives me hope?
I think the biggest thing thatgives me hope is that more and
more people are really startingto normalize the conversation
around addiction and mentalhealth.
And that is my personal goal,through my writing, through my
blogging, through everything isnormalizing the conversation
(45:24):
around mental health andaddiction, because I think
that's the only way that we'regoing to really have any sort of
prevention.
Christina McKelvy (45:34):
And I think that it's not going to be just a
normalizing, having it beeasier to talk about, because
you're right Prior generations,older generations, boomers, what
have you?
You don't talk about mentalhealth.
Jamie Hairston (45:48):
Even cultures.
It's not even just generations,it's even cultures.
I think there's a little bit ofa stigma, and it used to be
back in the day.
Oh well, that's just our weirduncle Al in the back on the
rocking chair, people that arestill that way.
But now we're kind of gettingto where, oh you know, someone
who's in the mental hospital hada meltdown or whatever, and so
we are getting more normalized,but I think we still have some
(46:10):
barriers that we've got toovercome.
Christina McKelvy (46:13):
And just knowing that it's really
integrated.
You know, mental health canaffect physical health and vice
versa, and and there's a lot ofnew discussions, kind of like
what we were talking aboutbefore self-disclosure or mental
health through fiction, thingslike that that are coming to the
surface and I am really curiousand I can't excited to see what
happens in the future, you know, with the discussion of mental
(46:35):
health.
Jamie Hairston (46:36):
So oh yeah, oh yeah, and I think integration is
the way to go.
Christina McKelvy (46:40):
I think, that .
Jamie Hairston (46:40):
That's actually really good too, because I
really like that they're tryingto integrate mental health.
Yeah, obviously we're in the US, so our mental or our health in
general isn't that great.
I really feel like mentalhealth, dental vision and health
should all be integrated,period Right, like there should
be no separation, but argumentfor another day.
But I really enjoyed.
Christina McKelvy (47:01):
You know your conversation, you know this
conversation, so you know.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I will put your information,your website flawed by design
and also the links to your bookthrough Amazon or Goodreads.
What would you?
Jamie Hairston (47:15):
through Amazon is best because they can
download right from Amazon,although the Goodreads and the
Amazon reviews help me.
Even if you hate my stuff, evenif I'm not offended- by one
star reviews.
Christina McKelvy (47:28):
All right, all right.
Well, there we go, but you havethree books out and are you
going to be writing any otherbooks or are you having a
project?
Jamie Hairston (47:36):
in the future I am going to do a book for, but I
am taking a year off before Ieven consider writing chapter
one of book four.
So in book three, you I leaveyou with the cliffhanger, as
always, but I leave it with aroom to go either way.
But I'm, there will be a bookfor I just I need a break from
(48:02):
that story for a while so I canwork on some other things that
are important to me.
Christina McKelvy (48:07):
Yeah, yeah, like the stuff with medium.
I'm on the name as well, andit's a great community and I'll,
especially now that they'remonetizing like they're, just
they're changing.
Jamie Hairston (48:16):
It makes you like more and like.
I'm trying to get moreconsistent with that because I
feel like that's really theplatform where I can share and
reach more people, and theneverybody's going to read a book
with some people and read aminute block.
Christina McKelvy (48:29):
Yeah yeah, exactly Well, jamie.
Thanks so much for being here.
Like I said, I did enjoy thisconversation and looking forward
to more of your writing, soI'll put all that information in
my show notes and I hope youhave a great rest of your day.
All right, you as well.
Thank you so much, yeah.
Book of Olnage Stories of Hope.
Healing and Resilience.
I'm your host, christineMcKelvie.
Today we speak with authorJamie Herston.
She is the writer of theMemoirs of the Black Sheep's
series, a fictional story aboutRenee, but based on stories from
her own life.
We talk about how Jamie joinedthe military as a way to find
stability, her history throughdrug addiction and the journey
(00:21):
as a substance abuse counselorand writer.
Stay tuned, welcome to HopologyStories of Hope, healing and
(00:48):
Resilience.
I'm your host, christineMcKelvie.
Today we have author JamieHerston joining us.
Hi, jamie, how are you Good?
How are you?
I'm doing well, thank you,thank you, it's.
It feels earlier than it should.
I know it's only 10 o'clock, atleast where I'm at, but feels a
(01:08):
lot earlier, feels like itshould be six.
Jamie Hairston (01:11):
It does.
It's the Mondays.
Christina McKelvy (01:14):
The Mondays, and I feel like I should change
my interview days to a differentday.
I don't have Mondays becausethat's my day off with my other
job, but you have the Mondayblues.
So, jamie, tell our listeners alittle bit about you.
You know, I know I reached outto you on written three books
(01:35):
and so, yeah, just tell us alittle bit about you.
Jamie Hairston (01:38):
OK, so shoot, I don't even know where to start.
So I am.
I am an author.
I've written three books.
They are inspired by my truelife but they are fictionalized.
I am noticing that with everybook there's a little more
fiction, but there's still likeelements of the truth in there.
(02:00):
Basically, I started my journeya long time ago, yeah, and let's
see.
So I was married to a man who Ihad met in high school and we
had a few kids together.
After my father passed away, hekind of ended up getting into
(02:27):
meth.
So, to be honest, he had alwaysbeen a drug dealer but it was
like weed and to me, like I'venever thought weed was that
serious and so.
But then after my father passedaway, he was really honestly,
it started like he was justtrying to kind of take care of
my family, because at the timewe were living with my mom and
dad when my father passed awayand then, like my mom's house
(02:49):
was in foreclosure and so it wasjust like all of it was just
piling up and he was really justtrying to help us kind of get
through things and eventuallymeth kind of won him over and it
led to like a really tumultuousbreakup.
So I eventually ended up usingas well.
(03:11):
I guess I kind of was like, ifyou can't beat him, join him.
Christina McKelvy (03:15):
I was going to ask if that influenced him
selling meth and with meth beingaround, right, easy access,
right.
Jamie Hairston (03:22):
And that's like what's kind of ironic, because
he had been approached beforeabout like selling meth or
whatever and he was like no.
I'm not going to do that blah,blah, blah, and then, like just
the perfect storm of eventshappened to where he was like
okay, and then he was like I'mgoing to sell it but I'm not
going to use it.
And then, like you know, andthat was my first lesson in, if
you don't set a boundary event,you know, draw a line in the
(03:44):
sand.
Eventually there is no line.
So anyways, so, needless to say, over the course of probably
the next one or two yearsbecause it was it's all started
my father passed away in 2002.
I kind of started using meth.
I think the first time I usedmeth it was like around 2004.
(04:05):
And it was like not long afterI'd had my third son and I
always say October, I don't knowwhy, so maybe October or four,
maybe not.
It was a long time ago, so yeah, so I ended up using like just
kind of gradually, justfunctionally.
He wasn't living with me, I hadthree small kids, I was trying
to work a job, I was livingliterally off of like $800 a
(04:27):
month.
And like I think about that nowand I'm like, oh my God, that's
crazy.
But like I was lucky becauselike my mom was my landlord and
all the utilities and everythingwere in their name and I only
had to pay them X amount ofdollars.
So everything I had left overwent to like food and gas and
whatever, and so anyway,needless to say, in 2006, I was
(04:49):
very, very, very heavily using,and that's kind of where my
journey starts and that's kindof what you see in the story.
So my character in the story,the character that's based off
of me in the story, is Renee,and so a lot of what's in the
(05:10):
first book is very true.
Some things are taken out oforder.
Of course, all names have beenchanged and that's because
initially, when I startedwriting this, I really didn't
know where I was going to takeit.
So, and also like somebody maynot like what I have to say, so
it's easier just to protecttheir identity.
(05:31):
My now ex-husband has been inand out of trouble with the loss
, so I also just didn't want todo anything that was going to
kind of jeopardize whateversituation he's in.
Yeah, so I ended up eventuallykind of like not really getting
my shit together, but getting ittogether enough that joined the
(05:51):
service, which this is kind ofan ironic story.
I mean, this is during the Bushadministration and basically if
you had a pulse you can get in.
I did a little bit of omittingof information to get in and I
did require a waiver.
(06:13):
It's like a headache, butsomehow I ended up getting in
and eventually the Army actuallyfigured it out.
But by the time they figured itout I had been in a while, so I
was good.
Christina McKelvy (06:22):
But needless to say.
So it was the Army, it was thebranch that you were in.
Jamie Hairston (06:27):
Right, the Army is the yeah.
So, needless to say, when Ileft, I was so worried about not
being able to keep my shittogether that I signed a
six-year contract Because I waslike this will force me to care.
Christina McKelvy (06:42):
Discipline from an outside source.
Jamie Hairston (06:44):
And I remember at that time a friend of mine
was like you know, they havetwo-year contracts, right, and I
was like, yeah, but I need asix-year one.
And then the other kind ofanomaly is that when I went to
sign my paperwork after I haddone all of the intake and
everything and then I came tosigning my contract, it was nine
(07:07):
days Nine days from when I wentto the processing station to I
had to go back and fly to bootcamp.
So I remember when I signed mypaperwork I called my mom and I
was like, hey, so I'm leaving.
It was in February of 07, likeda-da-da day, and she was like
(07:31):
we don't even have time to throwyou a going away party, like
nine days.
And I was just like, if I don'tleave now, it's like I'm going
to have too much time and I'mgoing to want to change my mind
and I was just so immature, likewhen I think about it, I was 23
years old.
I was still so immature, like,so indecisive, and I could
(07:52):
waffle from one moment to thenext, and that was the only
thing I was self-aware aboutreally at the time was like if I
don't go, I'm going to changemy mind.
So it kind of led me on thisjourney to where I am.
So I did serve five years and Iwas like I'm going to change my
mind eight months and like 29days or something.
Christina McKelvy (08:14):
Five years, eight months, 29 days, very
specific.
Jamie Hairston (08:17):
Yeah, well, because so I actually was
scheduled to get out in Februaryof 2013.
I did give birth in I'm reallythinking about it September of
2011, and the unit I was thenwas actually about to deploy,
and so it was really it's like aweird situation.
(08:38):
So I was just trying to writeout the last little bit of my
contract, but they were going tobe losing a body because I
wasn't going to be able todeploy because, right before we
found out, we were deploying theperson who was my babysitter.
(09:01):
We had some conflict and shewas no longer doing it.
So in the Army, well, in allbranches of service they have,
you have to have a person whocan watch your kids, like
whether you go to the field orthe gun range or whatever.
And I no longer had that personand I was stationed in upstate
New York and all of my familywas back in Arizona.
(09:23):
And I mean, even when I had mydaughter, I was by myself.
I had to find like I had to goto my unit and be like, can I
have a co-worker with me so Idon't have to deliver by myself?
And they were really cool.
They let me have two people,and then a friend of mine had
actually come up and everything.
So it was, it was cool, butanyway.
(09:45):
So, needless to say, I ended upgetting out a little bit early
under the no family carewhatever, but I mean it was
still.
It was an honorable discharge,and it was more because the unit
was leaving.
It was cool because they hadstarted the paperwork like a
year before I was supposed todischarge.
But I worked in the officewhere the paperwork was done and
(10:10):
so I knew all the tricks toextend it because I was really
wanting to finish my six years.
But I was also like I'm going tohave to get out before they
leave.
So I managed to stay until,let's see, september, october,
november, december, like fivemonths before my contract was up
.
So I was able to like reallykind of drag it out because I
(10:31):
really didn't want to leave, andit was like unfortunate that
everything just kind of happenedthe way it did, but anyway, so
I got out.
But before I got before I wasgoing to get out, like I had
started going to school and andthis is actually before I even
was pregnant and I was likewhat's the easiest degree I can
get while I'm in here, you know,because while I was in they
(10:52):
would pay for X amount ofdollars for so many glasses.
So I chose psychology because Ifelt like that was an easy
degree I could do from anywhere,which I wasn't wrong.
You just can't do much with abachelor.
Christina McKelvy (11:04):
Yeah, you have to.
Jamie Hairston (11:06):
usually it's not a terminal degree, right, right
and so, and what's really funnyis because I was actually
looking at bartending school butsomehow I ended up picking
psychology.
So the same yeah, you're notwrong, so anyway.
So I ended up doing thepsychology for a little bit and
(11:29):
then, once I knew I was gettingout, I really started like
focusing.
So I was going to school fulltime while I was still in
because I was trying to get asmuch done as I could Because I
really had no plan at this point.
My plan originally was to getout after my six years and go
home and really just spend timewith my kids, because even
though I had like a relationshipand everything with them, still
(11:50):
I had spent a lot of time away,you know, and so I had no plan
whatever.
Got out, got my bachelor's inpsychology I did, really I was.
So I went from being a methaddict to taking all of that
energy in thinking about methand using meth and applying it
(12:12):
to school, and I really actuallydid really really good.
If I wouldn't have had to takea math class or a statistics
class, I would have had anamazing GPA, but math and
statistics are not my forte, soI think I only ended up with
like a 3.63 or something, but Ihad initially been making the
dean's list.
(12:32):
like when I first started I waslike 4.0, 3.9, you know.
So I was still kind of like, oh, you know, I'm so sad.
But then when I finished that Ihad already been researching
what I was going to do for mymaster's and I went and chose
the longest master's program Icould find which is my degree
(12:52):
has this really long, fancy name?
I have a master's of science inChristian counseling of
substance abuse and addictivedisorders.
So I literally took six extraclasses.
So I have a master's inaddiction counseling but, I,
also had a focus in Christiancounseling, and that was before
(13:16):
I was, on my whole, not sureabout Christianity journey.
But anyway, so I did thatprogram because I had such bad
anxiety that I wasn't sure how Iwas going to do the internship.
And so it was, and I knew likeI was going to have to do that
(13:37):
in person, and so I wanted thelongest amount of time possible
to like prepare myself for that,and so I ended up being a three
year master's instead of a twoyear master's and being the
queen of biting off more thanyou can chew.
I couldn't couldn't do thatwithout thinking about my PhD,
(13:58):
of course.
So I started looking at anotherschool and I actually, in my,
during my internship, which Icompleted at an Arizona State
Prison, I started going toschool for my PhD while I was
still working on my master's,like a crazy woman.
Christina McKelvy (14:16):
So so you were interning the state prison
for your master's and then soyou weren't done with your
master's and I started a PhD.
Jamie Hairston (14:26):
Correct yeah.
I was paying out of pocket forit, because you can only have
student aid at one school.
Christina McKelvy (14:31):
Yeah, so yeah .
Jamie Hairston (14:33):
So my crazy butt and I did.
I managed to get four A's, Ihad two full time master's
classes and two full time PhDclasses, and I did a residency
which was like a four day eventin San Diego.
So and then after that semester, I realized I was crazy.
(14:54):
So I decided I was not going tocontinue trying to do that all
at once, so I ended up finishingmy master's, worked at the
prison for about a year and ahalf.
That was a really amazingexperience.
One thing that I've learned isthat if you can work with
inmates, you can pretty muchwork with anybody, because you
(15:17):
it's.
It's an experience I reallydon't even know how to explain.
So.
None of them need drugtreatment.
They were able to quit anytimethey wanted to, and a lot of
people you know they stay soberin prison just because the
politics of using drugs inprison can be very dangerous.
It's even more expensive to bea drug addict in prison, to be
(15:40):
honest.
So what's the?
Christina McKelvy (15:42):
cause of that .
Jamie Hairston (15:42):
Sorry, I don't mean to oh, so because they
don't have like money,everything has to be traded.
So I mean you'll, you'll evensee like extortion, where
somebody is commissary, is goingto go to this other person
because they have this habit.
It's just getting people tosmuggle in drugs is high risk,
(16:06):
so it just it's a very, veryexpensive thing to do and you
know, honestly, you can find alot more drugs in prison than
you can outside of it, which iswhy, like one of my whole
soapbox things is that's whysending people to prison for
drugs isn't really fixinganything.
(16:27):
But anyway, so, yeah, so thatwas a really interesting
experience.
I really enjoyed it.
I got my license there and then,after I and I was there for a
little over a year, it was, itwas a really good paying job too
, but there were some otherissues that I just decided it
was best if I left, and so Iended up working with children
(16:56):
and very different prisoners tochildren.
Well, it is, and it isn'tbecause, like so now I've had
this perspective on addictionfrom so many angles, because I
was an addict.
I was the wife of an addict, Iam the sister of an alcoholic, I
know somebody who's been inprison, so yeah, so it was
(17:20):
interesting because a lot of thekids that I worked with ended
up being DCS involved.
And guess what?
A lot of the parents had drugproblems or families in prison
or whatever.
So so it was so I got a wholedifferent perspective because my
personal addiction story isjust such an anomaly to me
(17:43):
because I've never really seenanybody with one like mine.
A lot of them are very similar,but I had a very supportive
family.
My kids went to live with mymom.
She eventually adopted them,but we still had like a very
co-parencing relationship and alot of these kids were either
completely separated from theirfamilies or their parents never
(18:04):
wanted to be involved, or theparents were struggling, like I
was so many years ago andcouldn't get their shit together
so they couldn't get their kids.
So it was just such a differentexperience.
I remember one of the kids thatI worked with was this really
adorable little baby and his momended up passing away of an
(18:32):
overdose and like that was myfirst really experience with
like client loss.
Just because she had she was myclient too.
She was coming in to work hercase plan and that was my first
thing and so like it was goodfor me because I was like, if
ever I needed a reminder of whyto stay sober, like that was it.
It was just, it was.
(18:53):
It was difficult, but the placewhere I was working had a very
toxic culture, which was sadbecause I actually probably
could have stayed doing that jobdespite everything.
But I had a boss whomicromanaged like everything,
and I had a case load of.
(19:17):
At one point I had a case loadof 110 clients because so many
people had left.
We're supposed to have a max of25.
Christina McKelvy (19:25):
I can relate one of my past jobs.
Yeah, yeah school case load of120 and I was also.
I was the therapist and thecase manager.
And talk about being throwninto the deep end.
Jamie Hairston (19:39):
Yeah, and then this this was my first
introduction to billable hours,so, and it's the only job I've
ever had where, as a therapist,billable, billable, billable.
So even with that case load, Iwasn't meeting my billable hours
.
And that is to me, honestly,that's a.
It's a Medicaid scam and I haveno problem saying this, because
(20:03):
I will scream it from the therooftops that anybody who takes
Medicaid, and only Medicaid, isa Medicaid scam.
And my reasoning for that is ifyou get them on the phone for
five minutes, you get to billfor 15 minutes.
Christina McKelvy (20:19):
It's a client hour contact.
When we're talking aboutbillable hours, it's right,
right it's.
Jamie Hairston (20:24):
And that's me like, and I understand like you
have to set like a linesomewhere.
I do understand that.
But like our mission in lifewas to, if you didn't have
anybody, call 20 people in thathour and bill 15 minutes, and to
me that is a scam.
Christina McKelvy (20:41):
Yeah.
Jamie Hairston (20:42):
What other industry Are you allowed to do
that outside of law?
You know, and and law iscompletely different, because
you might have six peopleworking on a case.
This is one person.
It rub me the wrong way becausethey are always like this is so
client centered.
No, it wasn't.
I was.
I was client centered.
I cared about, you know, eachclient.
(21:05):
But I felt like it takes awaythe.
It takes away the genuineness.
I don't, I don't know I there'sa word I'm looking for, but
that's not it.
But it takes, it takes away therapport, it takes the
authenticity, it takes away theauthenticity of what you are
(21:26):
trying to do for your clients,when it's like, okay, I just
been five minutes checking up onso and so now let me see how I
can get them off the phone so Ican check up with somebody else,
and so to me, like that wasreally difficult, but I think,
like what really got me.
Honestly, this is it's like abizarre story, but I actually
(21:48):
had had a motorcycle accident onmy way to work and I never
missed the work.
I missed the work once for asurgery, but I planned it and I
you know whatever, but I nevermissed work.
I didn't call out ever at thisjob.
And I texted my boss and said,hey, I just had a motorcycle
accident, I'm not going to makeit in today.
When she texted me back waslike you need a doctor's note.
(22:10):
Okay, well, no shit, I just hadan accident, so kind of
planning to get one.
So I went and got the doctor'snote and I had just interviewed
for a raise because they pulleda fast one on me.
They hired me and paid me atthe non licensed rate, even
though I was licensed when I washired and I let it go because I
(22:34):
was like you know what is notgoing to kill me?
So, but then they wanted me touse my license to sign off on
stuff.
So I was kind of like I'm notreally comfortable doing that
till I'm getting paid at alicense wage.
So did the interview process Ihad to go through to get that
(22:57):
raise and I had done theinterview in like April, and
they were like, okay, we'regoing to increase your wage in
June.
Okay, fine, june rolls aroundNothing, july rolls around
Nothing.
So the day after I come in frommy accident was the day that my
(23:18):
raise was supposed to kick inand I looked and they it didn't
kick in and I don't know why,but it just sent me into an
emotional meltdown.
And this is like the third timethat week I had called my
husband crying because I calledhim crying over she's treating
me like a liar, and I felt likeit was so disrespectful to me
(23:38):
because I wasn't always callingout, you know.
And then I went in and theydidn't give me my raise and it
was just like one thing afteranother.
And my husband said Jamie, youhave called me three times this
week crying over this goddamnjob, quit the damn job.
And so I had to sit there andlike really think on it, because
(24:02):
I'm notorious for makingirrational decisions like that.
But for my husband to encourageit was not something I was used
to.
So I like really had to sitthere and think about it and I
was like you know what he'sright, and normally I want to
look for another job.
But I was like you know whatI'm, I'm not doing it like he's
(24:24):
right.
So me, being the bigconfrontational person I am ha,
ha, ha sarcasm I wrote my twoweeks notice note and snuck into
my boss's office on her lunchand stuck it on her desk and
then went off to because I hadto go to a client's house left
(24:48):
and their policy there was 30days, but they because they
didn't want to pay for yourinsurance.
It ends up being like the endof the week, ok, so I had my
accident, like July 2nd, and Ithink like they were like you
don't have to come back afterthe 28th or whatever you know,
whatever the end of the calendarweek was.
So I had no jobs, no prospects,nothing.
(25:09):
So I was like I don't know howI'm going to do this, but I'll
figure it out.
I'm just going to wing it.
And I ended up applying, likeback at the prison.
And then I stumbled across thenext job that I went to, which
was working in a residentialgroup home.
That job I pretty much knew Iactually, when I applied for the
job I was like I don't want towork in a group home because my
(25:31):
experience with working in grouphomes as a temp prior to this
was never good.
It was always a little bitscary or boring or like just I
was happy to do it as a tempbecause when they called me and
asked me to do it again, I couldsay no.
So I was like I don't think I'mgoing to take this job, but
(25:54):
I'll apply for it anyway.
And then when she called me andshe interviewed me, it was
basically like you can work asmuch, as little as you want to,
as long as the clients get Xamount of sessions per month.
There's X amount of groupsessions per month.
You hold this weekly meetingper month.
You can work from home half thetime.
You have to be in office, youhave to do this, this and this,
(26:16):
but very flexible.
And I was like, well, that's mykind of jam.
Christina McKelvy (26:20):
Yeah.
Jamie Hairston (26:20):
So, and I would do as much as I could Monday
through Thursday, so I wouldn'thave to come in on Fridays, and
that's what I did pretty muchuntil the pandemic hit, which
that was the whole other thingin and of itself, and then in
the middle of that job, I had mymidlife crisis, bottom line
crisis.
Yeah, yeah, I didn't.
My midlife crisis was I don'tknow what I want to be when I
(26:42):
grow up, and I just now figuredthis out.
After all this education, andone of the things that had stuck
with me, that was really kindof holding me back, was when I
had left the prison.
One of the girls there saidyou're not going to just have
all that education and use itfor nothing.
And so, like I kept thinking,I've invested all this time into
(27:03):
this education, I have to makethis my career.
Christina McKelvy (27:05):
Mm, hmm.
Jamie Hairston (27:07):
And in my midlife crisis I realized that
was bullshit.
It was bullshit too To thinkthat just because I had that
education meant I had to staystuck in that career, because
there's many, many things I mean.
I have become the master atdeescalation from my education
(27:28):
alone Period.
Christina McKelvy (27:29):
Mm, hmm, mm hmm.
Jamie Hairston (27:31):
And that's like not even experienced.
And you know, I grew up in afamily where, unfortunately,
mental illness doesn't just stopand visit one or two people.
It takes this time to get toknow everybody in the goddamn
tree.
So in the middle of my midlifecrisis, I was talking with a
colleague and I was like well, Ithink my biggest barrier is
being in recovery myself.
(27:52):
Like I think I'm getting alittle bit of the vicarious
trauma, but I also think like Idon't want to do this job
anymore.
I think maybe I need to do itfrom a different perspective and
after I went on my whole littlecrying ugly tirade about I
don't know, what I want to dowith my life.
She said you know I was thinkingabout something, so what?
(28:14):
And she said I love what I doand I will say that I'm happy to
change jobs, but I would neveras easily as you just did say
maybe I need to change careerpaths.
And you did that, and you didit without a second thought.
And she said, like I think thereal issue is like you are not
(28:36):
what you want to be when yougrow up.
And like, as much as that mightsound like she was talking to a
child, it was the best way shecould break it down for me.
Because then it hit me like Ithink she's right.
So I sat down and wrote like apros and cons list, like is this
what I wanted to do?
What happens if I quit this?
(28:56):
What do I want to do instead?
And of course, by this time Ihad published my first book.
I really got to thinking aboutit and realized that, like I had
been, I had been thinking mywhole life about writing Because
I've been writing since I waseight years old and I had just
(29:23):
published a book and I thoughtabout it and I was like you know
what?
I want?
To be a writer, and so then Ihad to talk.
So I've talked this over witheverybody but my husband at this
point and um, so I called himup and he was like you can't
keep doing those jobs.
Christina McKelvy (29:47):
This is very similar to your last one Right,
or maybe not similar, but assimilar Right.
Jamie Hairston (29:54):
But then when I but then when I finally filled
him in on this entireconversation that I had had with
my therapist, with my colleague, with my A former coworker,
like once I had really gone intoit with him, he's like okay,
now, when you explain it likethat, I understand it, but I
still need time.
So like think about it and Iwas like well, I'm not trying to
(30:16):
quit today, so you're good.
Christina McKelvy (30:19):
Right.
Jamie Hairston (30:20):
And you know, it took a while and then it was
like what am I going to do if Idon't work?
You know, and I'm in a uniquesituation that I have income
outside of what I did.
So when I finally, like when wewere finally comfortable, I
finally said okay, I'm going to,I'm going to do this thing, I'm
going to quit and I'm going towrite full time.
(30:41):
And that's kind of what led meto my books.
Initially, I honestly was likeI'm going to end up going back
to work.
Christina McKelvy (30:55):
But here I am , I'm going to quit a little bit
later Almost exactly two yearsBecause I quit.
Jamie Hairston (31:04):
my last day was June 30, I think.
No it was no, it was May 31st,because I remember it was a
holiday weekend.
Christina McKelvy (31:15):
And I remember we worked together, so
that's why I remember this.
Jamie Hairston (31:19):
It was a holiday weekend and I specifically went
in on the holiday because Ijust knew they were going to try
to not pay me for that day, andsure, I was absolutely right.
So I had to write themafterwards to get my last day of
pay, and it was the day beforemy birthday.
That's why I remember, becausethe very next day we went to
Vegas for my birthday, my sonand I.
(31:40):
We went to Vegas so I couldplay some blackjack and yeah.
So, so, needless to say, yeahthat's.
And then now I'm just writingfull time.
And then I, oddly enough, endedup volunteering to be a
bartender.
So it was only without a jobfor like two months.
(32:00):
Volunteering to be bartending?
Yeah, I was, no, I was not.
Well, okay, so it was, youcould keep your tips, but you
didn't get paid.
So I ended up getting involvedwith the VFW veterans of foreign
wars and that's a whole otherstory in itself, but I ended up
bartending for about four orfive months there, which was
amazing.
It was fun and yes definitely alot like being a therapist.
(32:23):
The difference was customerservice was not required.
It was super nice to everybody,but I had no problem saying get
the heck out of here, or you'vehad much to drink or and even
my therapy skills carried overthere too.
We had a guy walk in who peed onhimself and I had to sit down
and be like I cannot serve youaccording to Arizona State Law
(32:45):
because you have urinatedyourself.
Like nobody wanted to have thisconversation, so it had to be
me, and you know.
So I did that for a while andthat was like really fun.
And during that process, whileI was still kind of trying to
figure everything out, I said Igot a stupid ad like the way I
come across things is alwayslike it just falls into my lap.
And so I got this ad about youcan form an LLC and get a tax
(33:09):
deduction, and blah, blah, blah,and it's like December.
Okay, so I was like great idea,because I knew I hadn't really
worked out much that year.
I wanted a good tax return, youknow so, for my LLC in December
, so that I could get thededuction, which it really
didn't end up paying off tillthe next year.
But and that was just going tobe, oh, this is how I'm going to
(33:32):
route my money so I can makesure my taxes are done correctly
.
And then I just kind of turnedit into an agency, and that's
kind of what I do now.
I work for myself.
I have a blog, which you know.
I got so busy with one of myvery high needs clients that I
(33:53):
haven't actually written in twomonths, but I have a blog now on
media, which is where I writeabout substance abuse, prison
reform.
I'm actually working on amilitary sexual trauma series.
I'm in the middle ofresearching my most current
story for an interview that Idid with a woman who experienced
(34:13):
it, and then I do editing,proofreading.
I'm in the process of workingon a steps to self publishing
guide, a course for selfpublishing, and that's just kind
of what I do now and, to behonest, I love it.
I have chronic fatigue, so I'mto a place in life where I get
(34:40):
up and work and then, between 11and two, to take a nap anywhere
in there.
And then I come back and do somework.
My garage is my office rightnow, so I have an AC in here,
but it got so hot for a fewweeks that I did the work from
six to 11, take a nap and thencome back out and work from six
(35:02):
to nine and that's just too hotto be in here, even with the AC.
But and that's just kind ofwhat I do and and I love it.
I feel I feel like the biggestimpact I can have on my
community at this point and Ithink this is why I chose not to
be a therapist anymore is I'man amazing therapist.
(35:26):
I really am, and I'm not afraidthat's like I don't have a lot
of confidence about a lot ofthings, but that was one thing.
Every job I've left, my clientswere just like why?
And to me, if you were a shittytherapist, they're not going to
care one way or the other ifyou're gone.
The hardest part of me leavingwas never leaving the job, it
(35:46):
was leaving the clients.
And you know, I think about thatand I think, like now my
biggest impact is sharing mystory, because as a therapist,
you can't share your storybecause it's one, a boundary
issue.
But the other thing that it doesis you have people comparing
(36:08):
their journey to yours and whentheir journey doesn't match up
with yours then they startthinking they'll never do it.
And I feel like as a peer, youcan share your in recovery and
it's going to affect themdifferently because you're a
peer.
But as a professional, if youwere to share that story, then
they're going to start feelinglike they're not good enough.
(36:30):
And I don't believe I don'tbelieve it's really ever
appropriate for self disclosureto be like oh, I was in recovery
too as a therapist, as a peersupport, maybe as a case manager
or maybe, but never as atherapist just because I feel
like it really messes with thattherapeutic relationship.
And so now I'm in a positionwhere I can say whatever I want
(36:52):
to is freely as I want tobecause, it's not going to cause
harm to anybody, becausethey're not my clients.
Christina McKelvy (36:58):
Now it's self disclosure.
Are you referring to mainlywithin substance abuse treatment
or all together?
Because I know.
Jamie Hairston (37:05):
I think, in general, to be honest, and a lot
of times so, like one of thequestions I got at the prison
and they were very, very, verystrict there was they had even
more boundaries, like more thanyou as an average therapist.
So, like you know, I could goto work and be like, oh, my
daughter, this or that at onejob, but at the prison I would
never do that because it's toodangerous, you know.
(37:28):
But I would say, just ingeneral, it's not good.
When, at the prison, one timesomebody asked me how would you
know anything about addiction ifyou're not an addict?
And so my response wascarefully crafted and it was I
have been affected by someonewho has struggled with addiction
, because it's not a lie, right,but it's not overly disclosing,
(37:51):
because who hasn't beenaffected by somebody with
addiction?
Most people have at least oneperson that they know of that's
been affected by addiction, andso that was my way of doing
disclosure without disclosure.
But when you say that tosomebody outside of a prison
setting, they still look at youlike you have nine eyeballs and
(38:13):
don't know what you're talkingabout.
So, and for me sometimes, whenpeople would come to me in
therapy and say I experiencedthis, this and this, and you
really don't know what it's likein my heart.
I wanted to be like, but I doknow what it's like.
You know it's just nottherapeutic to say that,
especially because then theybecome more preoccupied with
(38:34):
your story too.
Christina McKelvy (38:35):
So and it's interesting because I think
there is like a movement wherethere is some encouragement of
self disclosure, especially ifyou're LGBTQ or you know similar
cultural backgrounds.
Right, a lot of my clients arecaregivers, so I do personally
do some self disclosure of howyou know I speak caregiver as
well or have anxiety.
Jamie Hairston (38:57):
I think that's different.
Though yeah, I do think that'sdifferent because you can do.
I would say, oh, we've allstruggled with depression at
some point or we've all had aday where we felt like whatever,
because I think that there's alevel of disclosure.
But I feel like when you arelike I'm in recovery from true
(39:17):
methodic and you're working withmet, that true.
Yes, that is dangerousterritory for both of you.
I mean, I've listened to thelicensing board and I don't know
it's.
It hurts my heart to see some ofthe therapists that have gone
out and used with their clientsand so like to me.
Those are the situations in whydisclosure matter, or self
(39:39):
disclosure matters, because it'sa gray area and like that's the
one thing that is really,really hard.
Christina McKelvy (39:47):
Yeah.
Jamie Hairston (39:48):
You know some people don't.
You have to know how to readthe room really well and if you
have discernment it'll workgreat for you.
But just because maybeChristina can share her story,
and nothing comes of.
It doesn't mean that you knowMichelle over here can tell her
story, it's discernment withinself-disclosure, correct?
Christina McKelvy (40:09):
Yeah, I wanted to go back words a little
bit in your story.
Okay, I'm curious if, becauseyou mentioned that, you finally
discovered what you wanted to dowhen you grew up and at the
same time you're a very greatcounselor.
But you realize that may not bethe method or I'm losing my
(40:31):
train of thought like the way toshare your story, right, but
curious if going into counseling, getting all that education in
a way, was your way of treatingyourself or, you know, like your
own, like your ownself-treatment.
Jamie Hairston (40:48):
I think it was in a way honestly because I've
always been the problem solver.
I used to like to make a jokein the army because I was the
person who always ended upmediating actually the LBGTQ
drama.
Like I had a bunch of friendsin that community, that always
(41:10):
and I was like I'm going tostart charging y'all for therapy
, you know, and but I think Ihad a lot of it's.
Like you know, a comedian istelling jokes that come from a
place of trauma a lot of times,like if you really listen to
their jokes, right, there's sometrauma in there and I feel like
(41:32):
it's kind of the same as me,like you start discovering
things and making light of it orhealing others.
So, like a lot of people,especially people that have,
like trauma I have trauma in mybackground I think you start
wanting to you.
You become a healer, naturally,actually, because of your
(41:54):
empathy, and I think, like whathappened was I was given a
specific diagnosis that I'm notI'm not going to say what it is
because it's very signatized,but I was given a specific
diagnosis and I wanted to learnmore about that.
And then before I realized thatPTSD which ended up changing
(42:15):
everything.
So, because my PTSD diagnosisis really what's genuine, it's
like a genuine diagnosis, soit's my primary, or whatever.
And the substance abuse issecondary.
But the problem is when I wasgiven this other diagnosis.
(42:36):
It was given in the middle of acrisis.
I was given this diagnosiswhile I was in the middle of the
crisis.
However, I wanted to learneverything about it, so I think
my education did end up kind of.
I wouldn't really say it wasabout healing, it was about
understanding, but then it waslike it opened my eyes to
(42:58):
everything, because then all ofa sudden I understood everybody,
like I drive my kids crazy withit, because they'll come to me
and be like hey, I want to knowthis or that about dad and I'll
be like okay, so this isn't metalking crap.
This is me saying I understand,but he's this way because of
this, this or this, and they'llbe like stop sugarcoating at mom
(43:20):
.
We just want to know the facts.
We're not, we understand,you're not bad mouthing him, we
don't really care what thepsycho analysis is.
We just want to know this, thisand this.
And, like, I realized that I dothis with everybody.
So it'll be like, okay, Iunderstand why you're an asshole
and I know how to talk to you,but people don't really care
(43:43):
about the understanding theyjust want to be
like that person's a jerk orwhatever you know.
And so I think, like it set meon a path of healing, it set me
on a path of understanding, butit also made me extremely
intuitive and like, with theexception of a medical crisis, I
can almost always handle like amental health crisis, like I
(44:05):
can.
Just, you know, if somebody'sbleeding or needs CPR, I'm going
to panic and freeze, but ifyou're having a complete
psychotic meltdown, I got you,you know, and that's just.
It's made me very good atknowing how to like talk to
people.
I guess really is the best wayto say it.
Christina McKelvy (44:22):
Okay, Okay.
Well, let me summarize what youjust said.
You know that sounds like youknow going to school was part of
your road to recovery, becauseit made you understand yourself
and made you understand others.
It helped you interact withothers, and so that was so very
valuable for yourself and I'msure it's going to inform your
writing, like psychology, reallygood character development.
(44:45):
You know, I can see it beingvery helpful, you know, with
your writing as well.
I mean I've read both yourbooks, so I see it there.
I like to close every podcastwith a question, and the
question being is what gives youhope?
Because my podcast is calledHopeology.
Jamie Hairston (45:00):
Okay, what gives me hope?
I think the biggest thing thatgives me hope is that more and
more people are really startingto normalize the conversation
around addiction and mentalhealth.
And that is my personal goal,through my writing, through my
blogging, through everything isnormalizing the conversation
(45:24):
around mental health andaddiction, because I think
that's the only way that we'regoing to really have any sort of
prevention.
Christina McKelvy (45:34):
And I think that it's not going to be just a
normalizing, having it beeasier to talk about, because
you're right Prior generations,older generations, boomers, what
have you?
You don't talk about mentalhealth.
Jamie Hairston (45:48):
Even cultures.
It's not even just generations,it's even cultures.
I think there's a little bit ofa stigma, and it used to be
back in the day.
Oh well, that's just our weirduncle Al in the back on the
rocking chair, people that arestill that way.
But now we're kind of gettingto where, oh you know, someone
who's in the mental hospital hada meltdown or whatever, and so
we are getting more normalized,but I think we still have some
(46:10):
barriers that we've got toovercome.
Christina McKelvy (46:13):
And just knowing that it's really
integrated.
You know, mental health canaffect physical health and vice
versa, and and there's a lot ofnew discussions, kind of like
what we were talking aboutbefore self-disclosure or mental
health through fiction, thingslike that that are coming to the
surface and I am really curiousand I can't excited to see what
happens in the future, you know, with the discussion of mental
(46:35):
health.
Jamie Hairston (46:36):
So oh yeah, oh yeah, and I think integration is
the way to go.
Christina McKelvy (46:40):
I think, that .
Jamie Hairston (46:40):
That's actually really good too, because I
really like that they're tryingto integrate mental health.
Yeah, obviously we're in the US, so our mental or our health in
general isn't that great.
I really feel like mentalhealth, dental vision and health
should all be integrated,period Right, like there should
be no separation, but argumentfor another day.
But I really enjoyed.
Christina McKelvy (47:01):
You know your conversation, you know this
conversation, so you know.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I will put your information,your website flawed by design
and also the links to your bookthrough Amazon or Goodreads.
What would you?
Jamie Hairston (47:15):
through Amazon is best because they can
download right from Amazon,although the Goodreads and the
Amazon reviews help me.
Even if you hate my stuff, evenif I'm not offended- by one
star reviews.
Christina McKelvy (47:28):
All right, all right.
Well, there we go, but you havethree books out and are you
going to be writing any otherbooks or are you having a
project?
Jamie Hairston (47:36):
in the future I am going to do a book for, but I
am taking a year off before Ieven consider writing chapter
one of book four.
So in book three, you I leaveyou with the cliffhanger, as
always, but I leave it with aroom to go either way.
But I'm, there will be a bookfor I just I need a break from
(48:02):
that story for a while so I canwork on some other things that
are important to me.
Christina McKelvy (48:07):
Yeah, yeah, like the stuff with medium.
I'm on the name as well, andit's a great community and I'll,
especially now that they'remonetizing like they're, just
they're changing.
Jamie Hairston (48:16):
It makes you like more and like.
I'm trying to get moreconsistent with that because I
feel like that's really theplatform where I can share and
reach more people, and theneverybody's going to read a book
with some people and read aminute block.
Christina McKelvy (48:29):
Yeah yeah, exactly Well, jamie.
Thanks so much for being here.
Like I said, I did enjoy thisconversation and looking forward
to more of your writing, soI'll put all that information in
my show notes and I hope youhave a great rest of your day.
All right, you as well.
Thank you so much, yeah.
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