Have you ever stopped to consider how your thoughts influence your emotional well-being? Join me, Christina McKelvy, along with the remarkable Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis, as we delve into the transformative world of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT). In a compelling discussion, she shares her profound insights on how this pioneering cognitive approach, deeply rooted in Stoic philosophy, and pioneered by her husband, Dr. Albert Ellis can help us navigate life's tumultuous seas with greater resilience and hope.
This episode unravels the tightly wound threads of irrational thinking and its impact on our lives. Debbie guides us through the liberating shift from the chains of 'musts' and 'shoulds' to the freedom of flexible preferences, illuminating how such changes can heal our minds and foster emotional fortitude. We also celebrate the therapeutic powers of humor and emotions, essential companions in our journey toward mental health and the pursuit of a joyful existence.
Wrapping up our conversation, she shares heartwarming stories of hope that underpins her work. Her personal experiences and those of her parents who were survivors of the Holocaust, serve as a beacon, illuminating the path to improvement through persistence and gratitude. She also highlights resources for self-care and emotional management available through her website, leaving us with a poignant reminder of the abiding presence of hope in our lives. Tune in and be part of this uplifting exploration of the human spirit's capacity to thrive against all odds.
From her website: Dr Debbie Joffe Ellis is a licensed psychologist (Australia) and mental health counselor (New York), adjunct professor at Columbia University TC, and is affiliated with several major psychological associations and societies − including being a Member of the Australian Psychological Society, and an International Affiliate Member of the American Psychological Association. She has a doctorate in alternative medicine (MDAM) from the Indian Board of Alternative Medicine in affiliation with the World Health Organization, from whom she also received a gold medal (1993) in recognition of her service to the field of alternative and holistic medicine.
Dedicated to her husband, the great pioneering and remarkable psychologist Albert Ellis PhD, they worked together for several years giving public presentations and professional trainings on Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), as well as collaborating on writing and research projects, until his death in 2007. She continues to present, practice and write about his groundbreaking approach of REBT.
She currently has a private practice in New York City, and also delivers lectures, workshops and seminars throughout the U.S.A. and across the globe
For more information:
Website: www.debbiejoffeellis.com
Information on where you can find us.
Follow us on Instagram: @hopeologypodcast and the host @writerchristinamckelvy
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Disclaimer: The views reflected by any of the guests may not reflect the views of the podcast host. Some topics may be difficult for some viewers, so proceed at your own risk. This podcast does not replace psychotherapy or advice and is for entertainment purposes only.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina McKelvy (00:00):
Welcome to Hopeology Stories of Hope,
Healing and Resilience.
I'm your host, ChristinaMcKelvy, Today.
I'm so happy to introduce toyou Dr Ellis.
Hi, Dr Ellis, how are you doingtoday?
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (00:11):
I'm doing really well.
Happy to be with you, Christina.
Christina McKelvy (00:14):
Thank you.
Are you on the East Coast rightnow, or are you?
Where are you in the world?
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (00:20):
I'm here , there and everywhere.
It's on what podcast you'relistening to?
My touches is sitting on achair in New York City.
Christina McKelvy (00:31):
Oh, it's probably a little colder there
than here.
You're in Arizona.
I am but Northern Arizona, soit's not Phoenix or Tucson.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (00:42):
Yeah, and the weather is not like New
York City.
You are correct, it's cold.
That warm energy and vigor.
Christina McKelvy (00:50):
There we go.
So let's dive a little bit intoREBT and just before we kind of
pick that apart in how itrelates to hope and healing and
resilience because that is whatmy podcast is about for our
listeners who are not therapistsmaybe give a little background
on what REBT is.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (01:09):
Sure well, rebt, in other words
Rational Emotive BehaviorTherapy, is the pioneering
cognitive approach inpsychotherapy.
It was the first approach toholistically and majorly
(01:31):
challenge the then in the 20thcentury lord of the
psychotherapy universe, drZygmunt Freud.
To challenge his approach andmy late husband, as you
mentioned earlier, might havebeen when we were in private
conversation before recording,dr Albert Ellis created REBT.
(01:55):
He was trained to be apsychoanalyst because in those
days, and we're talking aboutthe 1940s, he was a lot older
than me, by the way, hence myyouthful voice, glow and
appearance.
Christina McKelvy (02:09):
Well, I was wondering if that's why, or if
you had like the secret to youthand longevity.
I don't know.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (02:16):
Well, it's not a secret, but I think
one of the keys to youthfulnessand longevity is a healthy
attitude, following principlesakin to REBTs, which I'm about
to share with you humor andrealistic optimism, which also
(02:36):
is at the heart of REBT.
I think, when we have thathealthy attitude and be mindful
of creating balance in life, notfanatically, but generally
eating mindfully healthy foodsnothing wrong with a splurge now
(02:57):
and then.
But it amazes me the number ofpeople I come across who don't
connect the health of their bodywith the food they eat.
It's kind of astonishing.
And they're not unintelligentpeople, the ones I'm referring
to.
Anyway and he was nearly 50years older than me, so there's
(03:20):
that too, because he would havebeen well into his 100 and
something by now, Anyway, so hewas an excellent psychoanalyst
In those days.
As I started to say before Idigress, if you wanted to be a
(03:40):
psychologist, your choice reallywas to be a psychoanalyst.
Sure, the early stages and daysof behaviorism were there, but
really, ziegman Freud ruled theroost, and so my husband was
doing psychoanalysis with hisclients patients, they were
(04:01):
called and very good at it.
But he felt very dissatisfiedbecause he noticed that after
sessions many of his patientsfelt better, but they weren't
getting better.
They felt better, maybe theygot some insight they invented,
they've expressed and so forth,but they were continuing to
(04:23):
think in the same ways thatcreated or contributed to their
emotional distress.
So, bit by bit, my husbandbecame more active directive
rather than a passive therapist,which is what the classic
psychoanalytic therapist is.
He became more active.
(04:44):
He would educate, talk aboutthe fact that it's not what
happens that creates ouremotions, but our attitude to it
, our perception of it, what wethink about it.
So his goal was to help as manypeople as possible to suffer
less unnecessary emotionaldistress and to give them the
(05:08):
simple how-to's of doing so.
And so part of that was thepsychoeducation not in
psychoanalysis and homeworkactivities between sessions not
in psychoanalysis.
And so bit by bit.
And then he wrote some articles, and they were.
It took a while for them to beapproved and published because
it was so radical and in factwhen he first presented his
(05:33):
approach at the AmericanPsychological Association
Convention 1956, he was booedand jeered and made fun of and
called simplistic and stupid.
The majority of his peersactually all of them were into
the psychoanalytic field, but hepersisted.
(05:53):
He persisted and over time,thousands and thousands of
therapists either incorporatedor became more fully REBT
therapists.
15 years after REBT, cbtemerged Now.
Dr Aaron Beck, known as thefather of CBT, first contacted
(06:19):
my late husband years before hepublished anything on CBT,
before CBT was even CBT, and myhusband was his mentor and a
great help to him.
And a lot of the principles ofCBT are those of REBT and so
essentially, rebt is not only aneffective, evidence-based
(06:43):
psychotherapeutic approach, it'sa way of life.
It's a way of life OK, Most ofus who use it as such, and if
you want me to Christine, I'mhappy to do an elevator version
of the main principles of it yes, please.
Okay, well, here's the elevatorversion of a very tall building.
(07:06):
One might hear those of youwho've read Stoic philosophy,
influence of the Stoics andEastern philosophy.
So my husband had a number ofinfluences, but he also was a
visionary and literally a geniusand created much that was
(07:28):
original and that changed theworld of psychology.
So the first main principle,and with acknowledgement of
epictetus and the Stoicphilosophers, it's not what
happens, it's not an event, it'snot what someone says, it's not
anything outside of us thatcreates our emotional experience
(07:50):
, but what we tell ourselvesabout it.
Then, when we think in healthy,rational ways about adversity,
about something unpleasant,something brutal, something we
don't want, not getting what wedo want, when we think in
rational ways, we create whatour epicte calls healthy,
(08:10):
negative emotions.
Now, negative in this sensedoesn't mean bad, it's just not
that pleasant.
And when we think in irrationalways, we create what our epicte
calls the unhealthy negativeemotions.
So that's another one of thebrilliant contributions of REBT
(08:30):
that isn't seen in most, if notall of the other psychotherapies
, which have the distinguishingbetween the negative and the
positive emotions.
Rebt was the first and probablystill is the only approach to,
under the umbrella of negative,educate us about the difference
(08:51):
between the healthy andunhealthy negative.
And here they are.
So when we think in irrationalways shall describe what's
irrational, what's rational inthe moment.
We're coming up to the 36thfloor, we'll get there.
Christina McKelvy (09:07):
But that's, okay, we have time.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (09:10):
Lovely.
So the unhealthy, negativeemotions include hopelessness,
despondency, depression, anxiety, extreme panic, fear, rage,
guilt and shame, and we think inrational ways about the same
(09:32):
events.
Then, instead of hopelessnessand depression, we create
healthy sadness, disappointment,grief.
They're healthy, they'reenriching.
If an ache can be painful inits early stages, but so it is,
(09:52):
if a person doesn't say Ishouldn't be feeling this, it's
awful, they will allow it aspart of this tapestry of life.
And if we're healthy enough anddon't suffer from a pathology,
we can experience emotion.
It would be pathological not toso.
(10:13):
Sadness and disappointment canmotivate us.
Okay, I didn't get what Iwanted.
What can I learn from this?
What had I better not do again?
What had I better try this time?
So they're healthy in either,enriching our spirit.
You know, grief is the otherside of our deep love and
(10:33):
gratitude for that all whomwe've lost.
Christina McKelvy (10:36):
You can't have one without the other, and
likely.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, can't have one without the
other.
I was dancing there, yeah, andyou did that very well, Thank
you, Thank you.
Christina McKelvy (10:47):
Well, and you know, growing up, you know I
always think about when achild's crying so I was like
don't cry, be happy, be happy.
But that's the wrong message.
It's a harmful message.
You know, big boys don't cry sofast forward and men out of
touch with their emotions orsuppressing emotions.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (11:02):
Suppress , suppress and then out.
They'll rush like a volcano.
It's great, you don't want tobe near men or women?
Yeah, or in whatever gender.
Christina McKelvy (11:18):
Yeah, so healthy these healthy, negative
emotions, right, right.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (11:25):
So then, when we think in rational, ways
, you know we're not going to beable to do anything in rational
ways.
Instead of anxiety, we createconcern.
Rbt is about creating someneutral kind of peace and love,
all as well.
Neutral zone no concern.
It's motivating.
Oh, I'm a student, I've got apay-per-view due in a week.
(11:48):
I better get up and make a plan.
And so concern pushes me,drives me, whereas if I'm
anxious, either I'llprocrastinate to avoid, I'll put
it off, I'll get an extensionof putting it off, or I'll find
excuses not to do it, or I'll doit and do a very lousy job of
(12:14):
it because it's under strain andstress.
So concern is the healthycounterpart to anxiety.
Instead of rage, when we thinkin healthy ways, we create what
RBT calls healthy anger.
What's that?
Rbt is holistic and humanisticand there's an assumption that
(12:36):
if a human being isn't disturbedendogenously, biologically,
then there's the tendency to bein touch with our moral compass.
And so healthy anger is thatemotion that is created and
(12:57):
registers when we witness orreceive brutal or immoral or
unethical behavior.
But we're still in control, wedon't react, we're not impulsive
.
The emotion registers and wecalculate.
What now?
Do I run for the hills?
Do I?
Do I call the police, do Icalmly pause and then express
(13:23):
something to the person.
So we're in control of ouractions and response.
And which healthy person wouldnot want to be in contact with
their moral compass?
Then, when we think in healthy,rational ways about the same
(13:44):
adversity or bad happening,instead of guilt and shame,
which often are there whenpeople attempt suicide, that
feeling of worthlessness andundeservingness, what we create,
the healthy counterpart isregret, regret, another one
(14:05):
connected to our moral compass,and we're willing to own.
I did badly, I did badly, thatwas a mistake.
I really regret doing that.
But then, along with that, ourebt guides us to remind
ourselves that I'm a falliblehuman.
A human is to be likely to makean error.
(14:26):
I'm still alive.
Let me try, if possible, to makeamends.
Sometimes it's not possible.
Let's say whatever person weintentionally or unintentionally
did a bad thing towards is deador cut us off and we can't make
amends with him.
We can still work onunconditionally accepting
(14:48):
ourselves.
We know what we did.
With regret, we takeresponsibility and that
increases the probability thatwe won't repeat the same error.
If we're lucky enough, we canmake amends.
I hope that's clear.
The difference between thehealthy and unhealthy, negative
(15:11):
emotions.
One of the greatest tragediesof humankind is that so many of
us have not been taught thatit's not our events, we who have
the power to create our ownemotional destinies.
Christina McKelvy (15:28):
That's by differentiating between those
negative emotions, like you said, anxiety, but turning that into
motivation and concern.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (15:41):
The how to is recognizing the difference
between irrational and rationalthinking, oversing when we're
thinking irrationally, which isthe cause of the unhealthy
emotions, disputing theirrational beliefs, which
results in us coming up with arational belief and then
(16:04):
repeating it, repeating it manytimes, for at least 30 days, so
that new neural pathways areformed and that can start to
become our habitual way ofthinking.
And so would you like me todescribe now the difference
(16:36):
between irrational and rational.
Christina McKelvy (16:39):
Yes, please, that would be helpful.
I definitely want to alsoreally dive into how this could
dive into how RBT can help withthat hope and healing.
But yes, I think that might beimportant for our listeners to
know between the rational andirrational.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (16:56):
With pleasure and I encourage
listeners as I describe theelements of irrational thinking
to consider which of those waysof thinking they carry out they
think, and is it helping them orhurting them?
And if they knowledge in allprobability it's not helping and
(17:18):
is helping and is creatingemotional distress, then the
good news is the RBT toolkitprovides really easy to do ways
of addressing and changing thoseirrational thoughts.
And I think you may mentionlater on the self-care sheet
(17:41):
that through that framework ofhow we can dispute and replace
the irrational beliefs so reallyquickly, when we think in
irrational ways, we have demands, we have shoulds and oughts and
musts, very rigid thinking andcommon core irrational beliefs
(18:02):
that many people have adoptedand they don't think about their
thinking, never question thevalidity of them, and so it's
almost like to them it's, it'struth but it's not, and so they
include I must do well and beloved, liked, approved of by
(18:25):
everyone.
The second one is you and youcan be an individual or a small
group of family or a communityor religion or a country or a
political party, and it's you,singular or plural must believe
what I believe, must act the wayI think you should.
(18:46):
I mean that way of thinking isat the core of terrorism and
wars.
And the next one is life should,should, must should be fair and
with justice.
Now, of course, rebt, which ishumanistic, encourages us to
(19:08):
strive to make the world morefair and just, but it's based in
reality.
And where does it get a personto say it should be fair and
just when, at this time, thereality is it's not so.
I desire it to be, I will workto contribute to it.
(19:28):
Being healthy, yeah, but itshould leads to rage or
hopelessness.
And another one of those coreirrational beliefs is the need
for certainty.
I must know for sure that thefill in the dots you know, will
my partner treat me well forever?
(19:48):
Will COVID ever end?
I must know, I must know withcertainty and truly.
At this stage, the only thingthat's certain that I can think
of is death, not even taxes,because some people don't even
pay taxes.
Christina McKelvy (20:06):
So this room for you know, because the should
and the certainty, like it'svery black and white, it doesn't
leave any room for nuance,doesn't leave any room for that,
like you said, holistic outlook.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (20:18):
Exactly, yeah, we catastrophize, we all
fall ice, we blow things outperspective.
This is the worst that it couldbe.
Frankly, if a person is aliveand they're not suffering in
terrible pain, 24, seven, it'snot the worst that it could be.
And where there's life, thereusually is hope that things get
(20:42):
better.
There's a lot of evidence forthat.
And so we over generalize whenwe think in irrational ways, we
think in absolute, as youindicate, black or white, this
or that terms or nothing or ways, never, and we damn ourselves
and others and life when thingsdon't go the way we say thing
(21:06):
they should.
And, in contrast, when we thinkin rational ways which will
create healthy emotions inresponse to the same activating
event, instead of the demands,we have preferences.
I wish, I want, I desire.
(21:26):
It's healthy to have thosegoals and wants and not to
escalate them to the shouldswhich will create emotional
suffering.
If we don't get what we say weshould, we don't get what we
wish for, will be healthfullysad and disappointed, but not
devastated or debilitated.
(21:47):
And there's room for hope.
There's room for hope, yes,when we think in rational ways,
we don't catastrophize, don'tawfulize, we don't have a
generalized, we have humor, wethink, keep things in
perspective.
We have high frustrationtolerance.
We can stand what we don't like, we just don't like it.
(22:08):
I forgot to mention when wethink irrationally.
We have low frustrationtolerance.
I must have what I want when Iwant a little baby, that I am.
So in rational thinking we weremind ourselves I can stand
what I don't like, I just don'tlike it.
That's all wedding.
And one of the very essentialelements of rational thinking
(22:30):
and I read BT is the choice andit's an effort sometimes, often,
to create unconditional selfacceptance, unconditional other
acceptance and unconditionallife.
Acceptance doesn't mean weaccept bad behavior, right, but
we accept the person doing thebad behavior has worth.
(22:54):
Their behavior may deserveconsequences and let's let's do
the best we can to see that thathappens.
But the evil doer was once ababy too, and if not for our
genetic makeup and upbringingthere, but for the grace of
whatever you believe in, go I.
(23:15):
So.
It invites the possibility, atbest, of forgiveness and at next
best, less best, but it's bestbest of not harboring hatred and
bitterness for the rest of ourlives, which will kill us sooner
than we would have diedotherwise.
(23:36):
In all probability, it's a lotof medical research supporting
that REBT encourages dailygratitude.
It reminds us to create andmaintain healthy emotions
requires ongoing effort.
It's not a one-off aha Oprahmoment.
It's.
That's the beginning, and now Icarry it on.
(23:56):
And so there are the essentials, and I think we've reached the
penthouse of the tall building.
Christina McKelvy (24:04):
We are up at the top with the view, the view
of the.
It's gorgeous.
I like what you mentionedbefore is that it creates
(24:27):
acceptance.
You know, acceptance of theother.
You don't have to like whatthey're doing, but accepting the
human.
Not accepting the behavior, butaccepting the human.
And that can really shiftsomeone's perspective, like you
said, where that bitterness andanger kind of dissipates and you
see them as they were once, asa baby, that humanistic approach
(24:48):
.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (24:49):
Indeed.
Christina McKelvy (24:49):
Yeah, and I can see that helping with
resilience being able to moveforward.
You know, in whatevercircumstance you're in, Most
definitely.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (25:01):
Yeah, you know, and with unconditional
life acceptance.
A lot of people are A lot ofpeople who create either rage or
hopelessness and depression,and so I mean any and all of the
unhealthy, negative motions, inall likelihood do not have
unconditional life acceptance.
(25:23):
They will tend to focus on lookat this horrific situation, and
that's their dominant focus.
And REBT is not about puttingone's head in the sand and
avoiding, suppressing, denying,not at all, but it's about
(25:44):
choosing.
And again, we have choice.
When we know we have choice To,yes, be aware of that brutal
situation, do what we can tomake it better if we can Accept
at this moment I can't help makeit better if, at that moment,
(26:05):
we can't but not instead of, inaddition to to remember, just
because this element of liferight now is horrific Doesn't
mean all of life is horrific,and therein lies the gift of
daily gratitude.
Yes, this is going on, butthere's also this, and I can
(26:28):
also experience that, and I'mgrateful to have my, my loved
one, or my, my doggy or my, myputty cats or who you know, and
I can see here.
What if I can't see, I can hear, can't see or hear, at least I
can taste.
And if I can't know, if I'mable, if anyone's able, to
(26:52):
comprehend what I'm saying, wehave a lot of blessings in that.
So it's unconditional lifeacceptance.
To go back to how you startedme on this kind of monologue
here is resilience and hope,definitely, are bolstered when
we make the daily effort toaccept the things we can't
change, change what we can, ifnot globally, locally, and work
(27:22):
on unconditionally,unconditionally accepting other
people and ourselves.
The people I've met, teach orwork with have no trouble
adoring their partner If theyhave a partner or best friend,
if they have a partner or bestfriend, if they have a partner
or best friend, if they have apartner or best friend or dog or
(27:48):
cat, and if the dog or catwould approve on their very
expensive new carpet, they wouldhate that they did that, but
they don't love the dog or catany less.
They have unconditionalacceptance of the dog, cat or
person.
Hopefully the person didn't.
I was just going to say thatwould be unfortunate.
Christina McKelvy (28:10):
Well, if there are two, one two year old,
that has happened, yeah and the91, 92 year old in the worst
case, or in between.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (28:22):
Life is funny sometimes and humor is
great the fact that a person youknow I've met a lot of these
people who without effort,unconditionally accept others,
even if others and more human dosome unpleasant things and find
(28:45):
it torturously difficultbecause they've not been taught
how to or encouraged to do so,or being given really nasty
lessons from childhood.
On.
This year a waste.
I wish you never were born youknow when a little child is
sponge like and they grow up andif they're not lucky enough to
have come across a redeemingsituation person book, they will
(29:13):
not internalize that yeah.
So yeah, unconditionalacceptance is key to a healthy
life, mentally, emotionally andphysically.
There are many articles in theAmerican Journal, the, the
Journal of the American MedicalAssociation.
(29:35):
That's about a scientificjournals you can get demonstrate
scientifically it's notspiritual, philosophical journal
, it's here are the medical,biological, chemical facts that
daily gratitude enhances thehealth of people with, for
example, cardiovascular issues,daily gratitude there was a long
(30:01):
term study done of people whohad similar cardiovascular
issues and half of them practicedaily gratitude and half didn't
.
And this to me was astonishingthat the individuals the
majority of them who practicedaily gratitude lived on average
15 years and the ones whodidn't.
(30:24):
And also in the jammer Journalof the American Medical
Association article aboutshowing how people with chronic
anger have had arteries high,blood pressure lower and
ineffective or less effectiveimmune system.
(30:44):
Not talking about the occasionalangry outburst let's get
paranoid now.
Talking about chronic seething,24 seven anger.
That's what we're talking about.
So the mind body connectioncannot be ignored or disputed.
There's so much medicalevidence for that.
(31:05):
Healthy mind, healthy emotions,healthier body.
And even if we're geneticallypredisposed to certain
conditions, research has shownpeople who have healthy
attitudes are less likely tomanifest that illness or
condition to which we'regenetically predisposed.
(31:26):
We can change our geneticmakeup.
Christina McKelvy (31:29):
Hmm, that's that holistic approach.
The mind and body are connected.
Speak more to that because Iknow you know you also you're,
you know you have a doctorate inalternative medicine and our
ebt is also a holistictherapeutic approach.
So I guess my question is kindof general.
But you know, speak more aboutthat holistic aspect to our ebt,
(31:53):
but also mind body connection.
That can happen and how thatfacilitates longevity, but also
emotional growth, physicalgrowth.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (32:03):
Yeah, well, I invite each of your
listeners to consider how, in apositive or negative way, their
emotions have helped or hurtthem, hmm, and to consider how
(32:28):
they might have felt emotionallyafter eating a meal that was
over the top and clearly notgood for them or their, their
digestive system.
You know, we have evidence ifwe just think about not only our
(32:48):
thinking, but how do I feel?
How did I feel when dot dot dot, our ebt reminds us of the
inseparable interplay of ourthinking and our emotions and
our behavior, and the interplayand energy created by that
(33:14):
scientifically energeticallyinfluences the immune system and
the health of the body.
As I just indicated a fewminutes ago, in the 1980s there
was a bestselling book by DrNorman Cousins.
I'm beginning the exact titleright now, but if you Google his
(33:38):
name I'm sure the book willcome up.
And he had a life threateningillness and one of the things he
did was watch funny movies allday and he laughed a lot and
doctors were amazed that herecovered.
Christina McKelvy (34:00):
Anatomy of an illness is the that it or the
biology of hope.
I found two.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (34:06):
Well, I was thinking of anatomy, of an
illness, but it sounds like theother one would be relevant to
your listeners as well.
And yeah, so what else can Isay about the mind-body
connection?
You can't have one without theother.
And mind-body body doesn't justmean what we eat, you know,
(34:31):
it's the exercise, it's thequality of the sleep that we
have.
We are biological creatures ina natural world.
If the oceans, the massivewaters of the oceans, are
influenced by the position ofthe moon, and you know the
(34:55):
influence that on the tides,yeah, but only are we little
biological creatures in ouruniverse, influenced by that
bigger energy, shall I say.
But so we are influenced by themore immediate circumstances
(35:17):
and biological conditions thatwe create or experience the air
that we breathe, the water thatwe drink, the quality food that
we eat.
So I've gone a little bit here,there and around the mulberry
bush.
Christina, I hope I answeredyour question.
Christina McKelvy (35:38):
You did, you did.
You know.
I think it can be a whole otherpodcast episode.
It could probably even be awhole podcast series.
You know there's so many booksout there.
You know it's separate.
For a really long time, I mean,people thought the mind was
different from the body, butthere is so much interactions
and interplay and you know, yeah.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (36:01):
Try separating your mind from your
body.
Yeah, I can't I invite anylisteners to write in if they
can, and where and where is themind?
Anyway, Some people haveassumed it's in the brain,
because the brain is where wecognitively process.
Christina McKelvy (36:24):
Now they think it could be the gut or the
microbiomes influence a lot ofmm hmm, and just what the
Egyptians and so many ancientcultures already knew, that yeah
, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (36:41):
Oh, it's true.
You know, on some of thoseeveryday expressions, you know
I've got butterflies in mystomach or I have that feeling
and it.
You know, that's a type of mindas well, and then maybe that
gut feeling is translated intowords through the brains
(37:02):
cooperation, but each one of us,what are we made of?
You know, 90% water, what's thewater made of, plus the other
10% of stuff?
So what's what's?
Protons, neurons, energy, energy, and the privilege we have as
an individual, if we're aware ofit, is that we can craft to a
(37:27):
huge degree If we're notcognitively impaired, of course,
or have other medical issues.
That's the exception, perhaps,but otherwise we get to create
our attitudes.
And I'm not talking sugarysweet, it's all for the best
when tragic things happen.
(37:47):
I'm talking about realisticoptimism, which really comes
back to the theme of yourpodcast.
I'm talking about choosing whatwe need, to making an effort to
sleep enough, except foroccasionally where we go a
little wild on a happycelebration.
You know, we have theresponsibility to choose to use
(38:09):
it.
Otherwise, let's be victim andblame the society, the
environment, the politics, thefood, the lack of.
You know, let's take control.
You know, it's very empoweringand it feels really good to be
in charge of what we can be incharge of, which is our thinking
(38:29):
and our emotions and ourbehavior.
Christina McKelvy (38:33):
And that's where you say that it is a
lifestyle.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (38:37):
Yeah, an attitude, a way of life.
Yeah, I wrote an article thatwas published a few years ago.
I was about gratitude and I was.
I'll make a long story short.
Yes, I live in New York City,not far from the Hudson River,
(38:59):
and one of my life enhancingactivities is to go for walks by
the Hudson River, which is bikepath, pedestrian path.
One day a bike that was speedingbarreled into me and I fell
back and lost consciousness fora bit and it was a bit
(39:20):
concussion.
And then I came to, I sort ofsat up, and when I realized
nothing was broken, I was a bitdazed.
My head hurt, but I was fine,large, okay.
My first attitude slash emotionwas gratitude that it wasn't
worse.
Now, I attribute that mainly tothe fact that for decades, up
(39:47):
until that point, I had beenpracticing during hard times,
actively looking for what stillwas good, well, I still could be
grateful for, and therefore Iwasn't enraged, I was grateful.
Now I still told the bike riderfirmly you need to be more
(40:11):
careful.
You could have killed me, youcould have killed yourself, but
I wasn't enraged.
And in terms of hope, we canfocus on what's really rotten or
(40:32):
, as I said earlier.
Accept that reality, but alsomake it a daily practice to look
at what hope there is forimprovement, accept any facts
that tell us probably in thatregard there's no hope, and
focus on where there is hope andwhat we can be grateful for and
(40:55):
what still is good.
And I think I wrote to you lastmonth in our email exchange.
My parents survived five yearsof concentration camp in Europe
during the Second World War.
They were childhood sweetheartswho married just before the war
(41:17):
and then they were taken toconcentration camps and put in
separate, first of allmale-female areas, but then they
were moved to differentconcentration camps and as the
years rolled along, each onethought that probably the other
one was dead, but they clung tothe hope that maybe they aren't.
(41:41):
And when the war was over, bysome fortuitous circumstance or
(42:04):
miracle if you want to call itthat they found one another.
Most of their other familymembers were murdered,
slaughtered, put in gas chambersto die, and each my mum, my dad
, amazing people would say theyrefused to lose hope even in
(42:31):
hellish situations andfast-forwarding briefly to
starting a new life in Australia, where, some years later, I was
born.
Number of their friends inAustralia were also holocaust
survivors, and some of them hadwhat was then called nervous
(42:54):
breakdowns.
Now we call it GAD generalgeneralising anxiety sort of
whatever.
Christina McKelvy (43:01):
Handicap attacks yeah.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (43:03):
Yeah, and post-traumatic stress.
The kids they didn't have thatexpression and they suffered.
But my parents and others oftheir friends did not suffer
from those because, more thanremembering the brutal,
horrendous past, they focus moreon the here and now and what
(43:27):
they were grateful for a newbeginning, a new life, a new
chance.
And of course, they cried attimes when they remembered their
dead family members or recalledthe whole, but that wasn't
their predominant focus.
So you come back to yourbeautiful theme of your podcast
(43:51):
hope and resilience.
It's a choice.
It's a choice to have hope.
It's a choice to be resilientwhen bad things happen, and what
can help us is to think ofpeople who have survived hell
and clung onto hope and the factthat things did get better and
(44:14):
that they did survive.
We can recall times where we'vesurvived, proof that when bad
things happen doesn'tnecessarily mean that they will
destroy or diminish us.
But it's a choice and it doesrequire ongoing effort.
Christina McKelvy (44:32):
Ongoing.
It's a practice and, like yousaid, it's daily that daily
gratitude, daily acceptance.
Dr Ellis, I like to ask,speaking of hope, I'd like to
ask you a personal question.
I do ask this to everyone thatI interview what brings you hope
?
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (44:53):
What a great question, christina.
I think it's because I chooseto have it.
It's because not only, as I wasgoing to say, not only my
parents endured brutalsituations, but so did I.
But the ones I've endured can'tbe compared to what they did,
(45:18):
but I have evidence that thingsget better, that things can get
better.
I've observed people tunneldown, down, down and give up on
life because they allowedthemselves to lose hope.
So what gives me hope is myexperience that things do get
(45:42):
better if I persist and if Icontinue my practice of daily
gratitude.
What gives me hope is remindingmyself that I love being alive.
I love life.
I hate some of the tragicthings.
I hate cruelty that happens inwar and terrorism.
(46:06):
I abhor cruelty to animals andthe environment.
I do what I can as theindividual I am to.
If I can't do anythingpractical, I'll contribute a
little to some of theorganizations that really are
making a difference, and I havea sense I'm not going to live
(46:31):
forever.
So what gives me hope is thatthere's so much even though
there's much that's not great somuch that is great that I can
enjoy it and I can work tomaintain my good health and keep
enjoying it.
And another thing that gives mepleasure and meaning is that I
(46:52):
can do my bit to help otherpeople when they're feeling
hopeless, to restore their hope,and when that happens they can
help other people restore theirhope.
And that's, you know, doing alittle can kind of open up into
(47:13):
helping a whole lot.
You know, one life touchesanother, another touches another
, and that's the exponentialgrowth of people infecting
others with hope.
Christina McKelvy (47:27):
People infecting others with hope.
That's a good infection to have, well, and.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (47:34):
I don't suggest any vaccine or immunity
from that one.
Let it fester and grow.
Christina McKelvy (47:40):
Yes, yes, let it spread.
You know, because hope iscontagious and you know I have,
you know, hopeology and I havestories of hope, healing and
resilience.
And I have it in that order fora reason Because when you have
hope, then you can heal and thenyou have that resilience.
You know, in that order andit's you need hope first, and so
(48:05):
thank you so much, you know,for being on here and explaining
.
You know the history of REBTand how REBT can foster hope,
but also sharing you know someof your own personal history and
how it inspired you to havehope as well, and I just really
appreciated or appreciate,excuse me you being here.
(48:25):
So thank you so much.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (48:27):
Oh, it's a great pleasure, kristina.
I really appreciate you and thework you're doing to infect
others, yes, so keep up yourgreat work with individuals and
via your podcasts.
That's wonderful, and I hopeyour listeners will, you know,
(48:48):
do whatever is required thatthey heal any wounds, that that
dampen any hope, so that theyrekindle hope or give birth to
hope and keep that alive and tocherish life and to help other
people.
Christina McKelvy (49:08):
Yeah, really cherish life.
Be that gratitude.
Dr Ellis, where can people findyou online or learn more about
you?
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (49:20):
Okay, thanks for asking.
Well, my website iswwwdebbyjofieellis.
Christina McKelvy (49:28):
as one word, and that will be in the show
notes for everybody.
Great yeah.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (49:33):
So don't I caution, people sometimes put
in three E's instead of two.
It's D, double B I J, o, doubleF, double E, double L, I S dot
com, and so that's my websiteand there are videos and gee, I
might add this podcast, you know.
There are recordings there,there are some articles I've
(49:55):
written for psychology today andother things, and there's my
self care sheet that wementioned earlier, which a
person can use to help themidentify are they thinking in
irrational ways and creatingunhealthy emotions, and then it
guides them into disputing themthe irrational beliefs, coming
(50:16):
up with healthy beliefs thatthey can repeat and repeat and
therefore prevent creating thatunhealthy emotion the way they
did.
So my website and it also I puton any upcoming workshops or
presentations and some of thepeople, if they're in that area,
(50:36):
they can attend or listen to.
If it's a virtual one, and so Iguess that's one of the best
ways to see what I'm doing andwhere I might be presenting.
And if it's a student, I teachat Columbia University, so come
do my REBT course.
If you're doing a master's or adoctorate in psychology, yeah,
(50:59):
there you go All right, awesome.
Christina McKelvy (51:01):
Well, thank you.
And yeah, thank you again.
And to everyone listening, Iinspire you to check out her
website.
Look at the self care sheet.
I think that's fabulous.
And you know, I just give hopefor all.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (51:16):
Thank you to.
Thanks again, christina.
And where there's life, therereally is hope.
Till the moment we're not hereanymore, then there's hope for
the end of the blues dead, butwith his life is hope.
Let's cherish life.
Christina McKelvy (51:32):
Yes, where there's life, there's hope.
I think that's a great endingright there.
Welcome to Hopeology Stories of Hope,
Healing and Resilience.
I'm your host, ChristinaMcKelvy, Today.
I'm so happy to introduce toyou Dr Ellis.
Hi, Dr Ellis, how are you doingtoday?
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (00:11):
I'm doing really well.
Happy to be with you, Christina.
Christina McKelvy (00:14):
Thank you.
Are you on the East Coast rightnow, or are you?
Where are you in the world?
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (00:20):
I'm here , there and everywhere.
It's on what podcast you'relistening to?
My touches is sitting on achair in New York City.
Christina McKelvy (00:31):
Oh, it's probably a little colder there
than here.
You're in Arizona.
I am but Northern Arizona, soit's not Phoenix or Tucson.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (00:42):
Yeah, and the weather is not like New
York City.
You are correct, it's cold.
That warm energy and vigor.
Christina McKelvy (00:50):
There we go.
So let's dive a little bit intoREBT and just before we kind of
pick that apart in how itrelates to hope and healing and
resilience because that is whatmy podcast is about for our
listeners who are not therapistsmaybe give a little background
on what REBT is.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (01:09):
Sure well, rebt, in other words
Rational Emotive BehaviorTherapy, is the pioneering
cognitive approach inpsychotherapy.
It was the first approach toholistically and majorly
(01:31):
challenge the then in the 20thcentury lord of the
psychotherapy universe, drZygmunt Freud.
To challenge his approach andmy late husband, as you
mentioned earlier, might havebeen when we were in private
conversation before recording,dr Albert Ellis created REBT.
(01:55):
He was trained to be apsychoanalyst because in those
days, and we're talking aboutthe 1940s, he was a lot older
than me, by the way, hence myyouthful voice, glow and
appearance.
Christina McKelvy (02:09):
Well, I was wondering if that's why, or if
you had like the secret to youthand longevity.
I don't know.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (02:16):
Well, it's not a secret, but I think
one of the keys to youthfulnessand longevity is a healthy
attitude, following principlesakin to REBTs, which I'm about
to share with you humor andrealistic optimism, which also
(02:36):
is at the heart of REBT.
I think, when we have thathealthy attitude and be mindful
of creating balance in life, notfanatically, but generally
eating mindfully healthy foodsnothing wrong with a splurge now
(02:57):
and then.
But it amazes me the number ofpeople I come across who don't
connect the health of their bodywith the food they eat.
It's kind of astonishing.
And they're not unintelligentpeople, the ones I'm referring
to.
Anyway and he was nearly 50years older than me, so there's
(03:20):
that too, because he would havebeen well into his 100 and
something by now, Anyway, so hewas an excellent psychoanalyst
In those days.
As I started to say before Idigress, if you wanted to be a
(03:40):
psychologist, your choice reallywas to be a psychoanalyst.
Sure, the early stages and daysof behaviorism were there, but
really, ziegman Freud ruled theroost, and so my husband was
doing psychoanalysis with hisclients patients, they were
(04:01):
called and very good at it.
But he felt very dissatisfiedbecause he noticed that after
sessions many of his patientsfelt better, but they weren't
getting better.
They felt better, maybe theygot some insight they invented,
they've expressed and so forth,but they were continuing to
(04:23):
think in the same ways thatcreated or contributed to their
emotional distress.
So, bit by bit, my husbandbecame more active directive
rather than a passive therapist,which is what the classic
psychoanalytic therapist is.
He became more active.
(04:44):
He would educate, talk aboutthe fact that it's not what
happens that creates ouremotions, but our attitude to it
, our perception of it, what wethink about it.
So his goal was to help as manypeople as possible to suffer
less unnecessary emotionaldistress and to give them the
(05:08):
simple how-to's of doing so.
And so part of that was thepsychoeducation not in
psychoanalysis and homeworkactivities between sessions not
in psychoanalysis.
And so bit by bit.
And then he wrote some articles, and they were.
It took a while for them to beapproved and published because
it was so radical and in factwhen he first presented his
(05:33):
approach at the AmericanPsychological Association
Convention 1956, he was booedand jeered and made fun of and
called simplistic and stupid.
The majority of his peersactually all of them were into
the psychoanalytic field, but hepersisted.
(05:53):
He persisted and over time,thousands and thousands of
therapists either incorporatedor became more fully REBT
therapists.
15 years after REBT, cbtemerged Now.
Dr Aaron Beck, known as thefather of CBT, first contacted
(06:19):
my late husband years before hepublished anything on CBT,
before CBT was even CBT, and myhusband was his mentor and a
great help to him.
And a lot of the principles ofCBT are those of REBT and so
essentially, rebt is not only aneffective, evidence-based
(06:43):
psychotherapeutic approach, it'sa way of life.
It's a way of life OK, Most ofus who use it as such, and if
you want me to Christine, I'mhappy to do an elevator version
of the main principles of it yes, please.
Okay, well, here's the elevatorversion of a very tall building.
(07:06):
One might hear those of youwho've read Stoic philosophy,
influence of the Stoics andEastern philosophy.
So my husband had a number ofinfluences, but he also was a
visionary and literally a geniusand created much that was
(07:28):
original and that changed theworld of psychology.
So the first main principle,and with acknowledgement of
epictetus and the Stoicphilosophers, it's not what
happens, it's not an event, it'snot what someone says, it's not
anything outside of us thatcreates our emotional experience
(07:50):
, but what we tell ourselvesabout it.
Then, when we think in healthy,rational ways about adversity,
about something unpleasant,something brutal, something we
don't want, not getting what wedo want, when we think in
rational ways, we create whatour epicte calls healthy,
(08:10):
negative emotions.
Now, negative in this sensedoesn't mean bad, it's just not
that pleasant.
And when we think in irrationalways, we create what our epicte
calls the unhealthy negativeemotions.
So that's another one of thebrilliant contributions of REBT
(08:30):
that isn't seen in most, if notall of the other psychotherapies
, which have the distinguishingbetween the negative and the
positive emotions.
Rebt was the first and probablystill is the only approach to,
under the umbrella of negative,educate us about the difference
(08:51):
between the healthy andunhealthy negative.
And here they are.
So when we think in irrationalways shall describe what's
irrational, what's rational inthe moment.
We're coming up to the 36thfloor, we'll get there.
Christina McKelvy (09:07):
But that's, okay, we have time.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (09:10):
Lovely.
So the unhealthy, negativeemotions include hopelessness,
despondency, depression, anxiety, extreme panic, fear, rage,
guilt and shame, and we think inrational ways about the same
(09:32):
events.
Then, instead of hopelessnessand depression, we create
healthy sadness, disappointment,grief.
They're healthy, they'reenriching.
If an ache can be painful inits early stages, but so it is,
(09:52):
if a person doesn't say Ishouldn't be feeling this, it's
awful, they will allow it aspart of this tapestry of life.
And if we're healthy enough anddon't suffer from a pathology,
we can experience emotion.
It would be pathological not toso.
(10:13):
Sadness and disappointment canmotivate us.
Okay, I didn't get what Iwanted.
What can I learn from this?
What had I better not do again?
What had I better try this time?
So they're healthy in either,enriching our spirit.
You know, grief is the otherside of our deep love and
(10:33):
gratitude for that all whomwe've lost.
Christina McKelvy (10:36):
You can't have one without the other, and
likely.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, can't have one without the
other.
I was dancing there, yeah, andyou did that very well, Thank
you, Thank you.
Christina McKelvy (10:47):
Well, and you know, growing up, you know I
always think about when achild's crying so I was like
don't cry, be happy, be happy.
But that's the wrong message.
It's a harmful message.
You know, big boys don't cry sofast forward and men out of
touch with their emotions orsuppressing emotions.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (11:02):
Suppress , suppress and then out.
They'll rush like a volcano.
It's great, you don't want tobe near men or women?
Yeah, or in whatever gender.
Christina McKelvy (11:18):
Yeah, so healthy these healthy, negative
emotions, right, right.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (11:25):
So then, when we think in rational, ways
, you know we're not going to beable to do anything in rational
ways.
Instead of anxiety, we createconcern.
Rbt is about creating someneutral kind of peace and love,
all as well.
Neutral zone no concern.
It's motivating.
Oh, I'm a student, I've got apay-per-view due in a week.
(11:48):
I better get up and make a plan.
And so concern pushes me,drives me, whereas if I'm
anxious, either I'llprocrastinate to avoid, I'll put
it off, I'll get an extensionof putting it off, or I'll find
excuses not to do it, or I'll doit and do a very lousy job of
(12:14):
it because it's under strain andstress.
So concern is the healthycounterpart to anxiety.
Instead of rage, when we thinkin healthy ways, we create what
RBT calls healthy anger.
What's that?
Rbt is holistic and humanisticand there's an assumption that
(12:36):
if a human being isn't disturbedendogenously, biologically,
then there's the tendency to bein touch with our moral compass.
And so healthy anger is thatemotion that is created and
(12:57):
registers when we witness orreceive brutal or immoral or
unethical behavior.
But we're still in control, wedon't react, we're not impulsive
.
The emotion registers and wecalculate.
What now?
Do I run for the hills?
Do I?
Do I call the police, do Icalmly pause and then express
(13:23):
something to the person.
So we're in control of ouractions and response.
And which healthy person wouldnot want to be in contact with
their moral compass?
Then, when we think in healthy,rational ways about the same
(13:44):
adversity or bad happening,instead of guilt and shame,
which often are there whenpeople attempt suicide, that
feeling of worthlessness andundeservingness, what we create,
the healthy counterpart isregret, regret, another one
(14:05):
connected to our moral compass,and we're willing to own.
I did badly, I did badly, thatwas a mistake.
I really regret doing that.
But then, along with that, ourebt guides us to remind
ourselves that I'm a falliblehuman.
A human is to be likely to makean error.
(14:26):
I'm still alive.
Let me try, if possible, to makeamends.
Sometimes it's not possible.
Let's say whatever person weintentionally or unintentionally
did a bad thing towards is deador cut us off and we can't make
amends with him.
We can still work onunconditionally accepting
(14:48):
ourselves.
We know what we did.
With regret, we takeresponsibility and that
increases the probability thatwe won't repeat the same error.
If we're lucky enough, we canmake amends.
I hope that's clear.
The difference between thehealthy and unhealthy, negative
(15:11):
emotions.
One of the greatest tragediesof humankind is that so many of
us have not been taught thatit's not our events, we who have
the power to create our ownemotional destinies.
Christina McKelvy (15:28):
That's by differentiating between those
negative emotions, like you said, anxiety, but turning that into
motivation and concern.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (15:41):
The how to is recognizing the difference
between irrational and rationalthinking, oversing when we're
thinking irrationally, which isthe cause of the unhealthy
emotions, disputing theirrational beliefs, which
results in us coming up with arational belief and then
(16:04):
repeating it, repeating it manytimes, for at least 30 days, so
that new neural pathways areformed and that can start to
become our habitual way ofthinking.
And so would you like me todescribe now the difference
(16:36):
between irrational and rational.
Christina McKelvy (16:39):
Yes, please, that would be helpful.
I definitely want to alsoreally dive into how this could
dive into how RBT can help withthat hope and healing.
But yes, I think that might beimportant for our listeners to
know between the rational andirrational.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (16:56):
With pleasure and I encourage
listeners as I describe theelements of irrational thinking
to consider which of those waysof thinking they carry out they
think, and is it helping them orhurting them?
And if they knowledge in allprobability it's not helping and
(17:18):
is helping and is creatingemotional distress, then the
good news is the RBT toolkitprovides really easy to do ways
of addressing and changing thoseirrational thoughts.
And I think you may mentionlater on the self-care sheet
(17:41):
that through that framework ofhow we can dispute and replace
the irrational beliefs so reallyquickly, when we think in
irrational ways, we have demands, we have shoulds and oughts and
musts, very rigid thinking andcommon core irrational beliefs
(18:02):
that many people have adoptedand they don't think about their
thinking, never question thevalidity of them, and so it's
almost like to them it's, it'struth but it's not, and so they
include I must do well and beloved, liked, approved of by
(18:25):
everyone.
The second one is you and youcan be an individual or a small
group of family or a communityor religion or a country or a
political party, and it's you,singular or plural must believe
what I believe, must act the wayI think you should.
(18:46):
I mean that way of thinking isat the core of terrorism and
wars.
And the next one is life should,should, must should be fair and
with justice.
Now, of course, rebt, which ishumanistic, encourages us to
(19:08):
strive to make the world morefair and just, but it's based in
reality.
And where does it get a personto say it should be fair and
just when, at this time, thereality is it's not so.
I desire it to be, I will workto contribute to it.
(19:28):
Being healthy, yeah, but itshould leads to rage or
hopelessness.
And another one of those coreirrational beliefs is the need
for certainty.
I must know for sure that thefill in the dots you know, will
my partner treat me well forever?
(19:48):
Will COVID ever end?
I must know, I must know withcertainty and truly.
At this stage, the only thingthat's certain that I can think
of is death, not even taxes,because some people don't even
pay taxes.
Christina McKelvy (20:06):
So this room for you know, because the should
and the certainty, like it'svery black and white, it doesn't
leave any room for nuance,doesn't leave any room for that,
like you said, holistic outlook.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (20:18):
Exactly, yeah, we catastrophize, we all
fall ice, we blow things outperspective.
This is the worst that it couldbe.
Frankly, if a person is aliveand they're not suffering in
terrible pain, 24, seven, it'snot the worst that it could be.
And where there's life, thereusually is hope that things get
(20:42):
better.
There's a lot of evidence forthat.
And so we over generalize whenwe think in irrational ways, we
think in absolute, as youindicate, black or white, this
or that terms or nothing or ways, never, and we damn ourselves
and others and life when thingsdon't go the way we say thing
(21:06):
they should.
And, in contrast, when we thinkin rational ways which will
create healthy emotions inresponse to the same activating
event, instead of the demands,we have preferences.
I wish, I want, I desire.
(21:26):
It's healthy to have thosegoals and wants and not to
escalate them to the shouldswhich will create emotional
suffering.
If we don't get what we say weshould, we don't get what we
wish for, will be healthfullysad and disappointed, but not
devastated or debilitated.
(21:47):
And there's room for hope.
There's room for hope, yes,when we think in rational ways,
we don't catastrophize, don'tawfulize, we don't have a
generalized, we have humor, wethink, keep things in
perspective.
We have high frustrationtolerance.
We can stand what we don't like, we just don't like it.
(22:08):
I forgot to mention when wethink irrationally.
We have low frustrationtolerance.
I must have what I want when Iwant a little baby, that I am.
So in rational thinking we weremind ourselves I can stand
what I don't like, I just don'tlike it.
That's all wedding.
And one of the very essentialelements of rational thinking
(22:30):
and I read BT is the choice andit's an effort sometimes, often,
to create unconditional selfacceptance, unconditional other
acceptance and unconditionallife.
Acceptance doesn't mean weaccept bad behavior, right, but
we accept the person doing thebad behavior has worth.
(22:54):
Their behavior may deserveconsequences and let's let's do
the best we can to see that thathappens.
But the evil doer was once ababy too, and if not for our
genetic makeup and upbringingthere, but for the grace of
whatever you believe in, go I.
(23:15):
So.
It invites the possibility, atbest, of forgiveness and at next
best, less best, but it's bestbest of not harboring hatred and
bitterness for the rest of ourlives, which will kill us sooner
than we would have diedotherwise.
(23:36):
In all probability, it's a lotof medical research supporting
that REBT encourages dailygratitude.
It reminds us to create andmaintain healthy emotions
requires ongoing effort.
It's not a one-off aha Oprahmoment.
It's.
That's the beginning, and now Icarry it on.
(23:56):
And so there are the essentials, and I think we've reached the
penthouse of the tall building.
Christina McKelvy (24:04):
We are up at the top with the view, the view
of the.
It's gorgeous.
I like what you mentionedbefore is that it creates
(24:27):
acceptance.
You know, acceptance of theother.
You don't have to like whatthey're doing, but accepting the
human.
Not accepting the behavior, butaccepting the human.
And that can really shiftsomeone's perspective, like you
said, where that bitterness andanger kind of dissipates and you
see them as they were once, asa baby, that humanistic approach
(24:48):
.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (24:49):
Indeed.
Christina McKelvy (24:49):
Yeah, and I can see that helping with
resilience being able to moveforward.
You know, in whatevercircumstance you're in, Most
definitely.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (25:01):
Yeah, you know, and with unconditional
life acceptance.
A lot of people are A lot ofpeople who create either rage or
hopelessness and depression,and so I mean any and all of the
unhealthy, negative motions, inall likelihood do not have
unconditional life acceptance.
(25:23):
They will tend to focus on lookat this horrific situation, and
that's their dominant focus.
And REBT is not about puttingone's head in the sand and
avoiding, suppressing, denying,not at all, but it's about
(25:44):
choosing.
And again, we have choice.
When we know we have choice To,yes, be aware of that brutal
situation, do what we can tomake it better if we can Accept
at this moment I can't help makeit better if, at that moment,
(26:05):
we can't but not instead of, inaddition to to remember, just
because this element of liferight now is horrific Doesn't
mean all of life is horrific,and therein lies the gift of
daily gratitude.
Yes, this is going on, butthere's also this, and I can
(26:28):
also experience that, and I'mgrateful to have my, my loved
one, or my, my doggy or my, myputty cats or who you know, and
I can see here.
What if I can't see, I can hear, can't see or hear, at least I
can taste.
And if I can't know, if I'mable, if anyone's able, to
(26:52):
comprehend what I'm saying, wehave a lot of blessings in that.
So it's unconditional lifeacceptance.
To go back to how you startedme on this kind of monologue
here is resilience and hope,definitely, are bolstered when
we make the daily effort toaccept the things we can't
change, change what we can, ifnot globally, locally, and work
(27:22):
on unconditionally,unconditionally accepting other
people and ourselves.
The people I've met, teach orwork with have no trouble
adoring their partner If theyhave a partner or best friend,
if they have a partner or bestfriend, if they have a partner
or best friend, if they have apartner or best friend or dog or
(27:48):
cat, and if the dog or catwould approve on their very
expensive new carpet, they wouldhate that they did that, but
they don't love the dog or catany less.
They have unconditionalacceptance of the dog, cat or
person.
Hopefully the person didn't.
I was just going to say thatwould be unfortunate.
Christina McKelvy (28:10):
Well, if there are two, one two year old,
that has happened, yeah and the91, 92 year old in the worst
case, or in between.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (28:22):
Life is funny sometimes and humor is
great the fact that a person youknow I've met a lot of these
people who without effort,unconditionally accept others,
even if others and more human dosome unpleasant things and find
(28:45):
it torturously difficultbecause they've not been taught
how to or encouraged to do so,or being given really nasty
lessons from childhood.
On.
This year a waste.
I wish you never were born youknow when a little child is
sponge like and they grow up andif they're not lucky enough to
have come across a redeemingsituation person book, they will
(29:13):
not internalize that yeah.
So yeah, unconditionalacceptance is key to a healthy
life, mentally, emotionally andphysically.
There are many articles in theAmerican Journal, the, the
Journal of the American MedicalAssociation.
(29:35):
That's about a scientificjournals you can get demonstrate
scientifically it's notspiritual, philosophical journal
, it's here are the medical,biological, chemical facts that
daily gratitude enhances thehealth of people with, for
example, cardiovascular issues,daily gratitude there was a long
(30:01):
term study done of people whohad similar cardiovascular
issues and half of them practicedaily gratitude and half didn't
.
And this to me was astonishingthat the individuals the
majority of them who practicedaily gratitude lived on average
15 years and the ones whodidn't.
(30:24):
And also in the jammer Journalof the American Medical
Association article aboutshowing how people with chronic
anger have had arteries high,blood pressure lower and
ineffective or less effectiveimmune system.
(30:44):
Not talking about the occasionalangry outburst let's get
paranoid now.
Talking about chronic seething,24 seven anger.
That's what we're talking about.
So the mind body connectioncannot be ignored or disputed.
There's so much medicalevidence for that.
(31:05):
Healthy mind, healthy emotions,healthier body.
And even if we're geneticallypredisposed to certain
conditions, research has shownpeople who have healthy
attitudes are less likely tomanifest that illness or
condition to which we'regenetically predisposed.
(31:26):
We can change our geneticmakeup.
Christina McKelvy (31:29):
Hmm, that's that holistic approach.
The mind and body are connected.
Speak more to that because Iknow you know you also you're,
you know you have a doctorate inalternative medicine and our
ebt is also a holistictherapeutic approach.
So I guess my question is kindof general.
But you know, speak more aboutthat holistic aspect to our ebt,
(31:53):
but also mind body connection.
That can happen and how thatfacilitates longevity, but also
emotional growth, physicalgrowth.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (32:03):
Yeah, well, I invite each of your
listeners to consider how, in apositive or negative way, their
emotions have helped or hurtthem, hmm, and to consider how
(32:28):
they might have felt emotionallyafter eating a meal that was
over the top and clearly notgood for them or their, their
digestive system.
You know, we have evidence ifwe just think about not only our
(32:48):
thinking, but how do I feel?
How did I feel when dot dot dot, our ebt reminds us of the
inseparable interplay of ourthinking and our emotions and
our behavior, and the interplayand energy created by that
(33:14):
scientifically energeticallyinfluences the immune system and
the health of the body.
As I just indicated a fewminutes ago, in the 1980s there
was a bestselling book by DrNorman Cousins.
I'm beginning the exact titleright now, but if you Google his
(33:38):
name I'm sure the book willcome up.
And he had a life threateningillness and one of the things he
did was watch funny movies allday and he laughed a lot and
doctors were amazed that herecovered.
Christina McKelvy (34:00):
Anatomy of an illness is the that it or the
biology of hope.
I found two.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (34:06):
Well, I was thinking of anatomy, of an
illness, but it sounds like theother one would be relevant to
your listeners as well.
And yeah, so what else can Isay about the mind-body
connection?
You can't have one without theother.
And mind-body body doesn't justmean what we eat, you know,
(34:31):
it's the exercise, it's thequality of the sleep that we
have.
We are biological creatures ina natural world.
If the oceans, the massivewaters of the oceans, are
influenced by the position ofthe moon, and you know the
(34:55):
influence that on the tides,yeah, but only are we little
biological creatures in ouruniverse, influenced by that
bigger energy, shall I say.
But so we are influenced by themore immediate circumstances
(35:17):
and biological conditions thatwe create or experience the air
that we breathe, the water thatwe drink, the quality food that
we eat.
So I've gone a little bit here,there and around the mulberry
bush.
Christina, I hope I answeredyour question.
Christina McKelvy (35:38):
You did, you did.
You know.
I think it can be a whole otherpodcast episode.
It could probably even be awhole podcast series.
You know there's so many booksout there.
You know it's separate.
For a really long time, I mean,people thought the mind was
different from the body, butthere is so much interactions
and interplay and you know, yeah.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (36:01):
Try separating your mind from your
body.
Yeah, I can't I invite anylisteners to write in if they
can, and where and where is themind?
Anyway, Some people haveassumed it's in the brain,
because the brain is where wecognitively process.
Christina McKelvy (36:24):
Now they think it could be the gut or the
microbiomes influence a lot ofmm hmm, and just what the
Egyptians and so many ancientcultures already knew, that yeah
, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (36:41):
Oh, it's true.
You know, on some of thoseeveryday expressions, you know
I've got butterflies in mystomach or I have that feeling
and it.
You know, that's a type of mindas well, and then maybe that
gut feeling is translated intowords through the brains
(37:02):
cooperation, but each one of us,what are we made of?
You know, 90% water, what's thewater made of, plus the other
10% of stuff?
So what's what's?
Protons, neurons, energy, energy, and the privilege we have as
an individual, if we're aware ofit, is that we can craft to a
(37:27):
huge degree If we're notcognitively impaired, of course,
or have other medical issues.
That's the exception, perhaps,but otherwise we get to create
our attitudes.
And I'm not talking sugarysweet, it's all for the best
when tragic things happen.
(37:47):
I'm talking about realisticoptimism, which really comes
back to the theme of yourpodcast.
I'm talking about choosing whatwe need, to making an effort to
sleep enough, except foroccasionally where we go a
little wild on a happycelebration.
You know, we have theresponsibility to choose to use
(38:09):
it.
Otherwise, let's be victim andblame the society, the
environment, the politics, thefood, the lack of.
You know, let's take control.
You know, it's very empoweringand it feels really good to be
in charge of what we can be incharge of, which is our thinking
(38:29):
and our emotions and ourbehavior.
Christina McKelvy (38:33):
And that's where you say that it is a
lifestyle.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (38:37):
Yeah, an attitude, a way of life.
Yeah, I wrote an article thatwas published a few years ago.
I was about gratitude and I was.
I'll make a long story short.
Yes, I live in New York City,not far from the Hudson River,
(38:59):
and one of my life enhancingactivities is to go for walks by
the Hudson River, which is bikepath, pedestrian path.
One day a bike that was speedingbarreled into me and I fell
back and lost consciousness fora bit and it was a bit
(39:20):
concussion.
And then I came to, I sort ofsat up, and when I realized
nothing was broken, I was a bitdazed.
My head hurt, but I was fine,large, okay.
My first attitude slash emotionwas gratitude that it wasn't
worse.
Now, I attribute that mainly tothe fact that for decades, up
(39:47):
until that point, I had beenpracticing during hard times,
actively looking for what stillwas good, well, I still could be
grateful for, and therefore Iwasn't enraged, I was grateful.
Now I still told the bike riderfirmly you need to be more
(40:11):
careful.
You could have killed me, youcould have killed yourself, but
I wasn't enraged.
And in terms of hope, we canfocus on what's really rotten or
(40:32):
, as I said earlier.
Accept that reality, but alsomake it a daily practice to look
at what hope there is forimprovement, accept any facts
that tell us probably in thatregard there's no hope, and
focus on where there is hope andwhat we can be grateful for and
(40:55):
what still is good.
And I think I wrote to you lastmonth in our email exchange.
My parents survived five yearsof concentration camp in Europe
during the Second World War.
They were childhood sweetheartswho married just before the war
(41:17):
and then they were taken toconcentration camps and put in
separate, first of allmale-female areas, but then they
were moved to differentconcentration camps and as the
years rolled along, each onethought that probably the other
one was dead, but they clung tothe hope that maybe they aren't.
(41:41):
And when the war was over, bysome fortuitous circumstance or
(42:04):
miracle if you want to call itthat they found one another.
Most of their other familymembers were murdered,
slaughtered, put in gas chambersto die, and each my mum, my dad
, amazing people would say theyrefused to lose hope even in
(42:31):
hellish situations andfast-forwarding briefly to
starting a new life in Australia, where, some years later, I was
born.
Number of their friends inAustralia were also holocaust
survivors, and some of them hadwhat was then called nervous
(42:54):
breakdowns.
Now we call it GAD generalgeneralising anxiety sort of
whatever.
Christina McKelvy (43:01):
Handicap attacks yeah.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (43:03):
Yeah, and post-traumatic stress.
The kids they didn't have thatexpression and they suffered.
But my parents and others oftheir friends did not suffer
from those because, more thanremembering the brutal,
horrendous past, they focus moreon the here and now and what
(43:27):
they were grateful for a newbeginning, a new life, a new
chance.
And of course, they cried attimes when they remembered their
dead family members or recalledthe whole, but that wasn't
their predominant focus.
So you come back to yourbeautiful theme of your podcast
(43:51):
hope and resilience.
It's a choice.
It's a choice to have hope.
It's a choice to be resilientwhen bad things happen, and what
can help us is to think ofpeople who have survived hell
and clung onto hope and the factthat things did get better and
(44:14):
that they did survive.
We can recall times where we'vesurvived, proof that when bad
things happen doesn'tnecessarily mean that they will
destroy or diminish us.
But it's a choice and it doesrequire ongoing effort.
Christina McKelvy (44:32):
Ongoing.
It's a practice and, like yousaid, it's daily that daily
gratitude, daily acceptance.
Dr Ellis, I like to ask,speaking of hope, I'd like to
ask you a personal question.
I do ask this to everyone thatI interview what brings you hope
?
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (44:53):
What a great question, christina.
I think it's because I chooseto have it.
It's because not only, as I wasgoing to say, not only my
parents endured brutalsituations, but so did I.
But the ones I've endured can'tbe compared to what they did,
(45:18):
but I have evidence that thingsget better, that things can get
better.
I've observed people tunneldown, down, down and give up on
life because they allowedthemselves to lose hope.
So what gives me hope is myexperience that things do get
(45:42):
better if I persist and if Icontinue my practice of daily
gratitude.
What gives me hope is remindingmyself that I love being alive.
I love life.
I hate some of the tragicthings.
I hate cruelty that happens inwar and terrorism.
(46:06):
I abhor cruelty to animals andthe environment.
I do what I can as theindividual I am to.
If I can't do anythingpractical, I'll contribute a
little to some of theorganizations that really are
making a difference, and I havea sense I'm not going to live
(46:31):
forever.
So what gives me hope is thatthere's so much even though
there's much that's not great somuch that is great that I can
enjoy it and I can work tomaintain my good health and keep
enjoying it.
And another thing that gives mepleasure and meaning is that I
(46:52):
can do my bit to help otherpeople when they're feeling
hopeless, to restore their hope,and when that happens they can
help other people restore theirhope.
And that's, you know, doing alittle can kind of open up into
(47:13):
helping a whole lot.
You know, one life touchesanother, another touches another
, and that's the exponentialgrowth of people infecting
others with hope.
Christina McKelvy (47:27):
People infecting others with hope.
That's a good infection to have, well, and.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (47:34):
I don't suggest any vaccine or immunity
from that one.
Let it fester and grow.
Christina McKelvy (47:40):
Yes, yes, let it spread.
You know, because hope iscontagious and you know I have,
you know, hopeology and I havestories of hope, healing and
resilience.
And I have it in that order fora reason Because when you have
hope, then you can heal and thenyou have that resilience.
You know, in that order andit's you need hope first, and so
(48:05):
thank you so much, you know,for being on here and explaining
.
You know the history of REBTand how REBT can foster hope,
but also sharing you know someof your own personal history and
how it inspired you to havehope as well, and I just really
appreciated or appreciate,excuse me you being here.
(48:25):
So thank you so much.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (48:27):
Oh, it's a great pleasure, kristina.
I really appreciate you and thework you're doing to infect
others, yes, so keep up yourgreat work with individuals and
via your podcasts.
That's wonderful, and I hopeyour listeners will, you know,
(48:48):
do whatever is required thatthey heal any wounds, that that
dampen any hope, so that theyrekindle hope or give birth to
hope and keep that alive and tocherish life and to help other
people.
Christina McKelvy (49:08):
Yeah, really cherish life.
Be that gratitude.
Dr Ellis, where can people findyou online or learn more about
you?
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (49:20):
Okay, thanks for asking.
Well, my website iswwwdebbyjofieellis.
Christina McKelvy (49:28):
as one word, and that will be in the show
notes for everybody.
Great yeah.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (49:33):
So don't I caution, people sometimes put
in three E's instead of two.
It's D, double B I J, o, doubleF, double E, double L, I S dot
com, and so that's my websiteand there are videos and gee, I
might add this podcast, you know.
There are recordings there,there are some articles I've
(49:55):
written for psychology today andother things, and there's my
self care sheet that wementioned earlier, which a
person can use to help themidentify are they thinking in
irrational ways and creatingunhealthy emotions, and then it
guides them into disputing themthe irrational beliefs, coming
(50:16):
up with healthy beliefs thatthey can repeat and repeat and
therefore prevent creating thatunhealthy emotion the way they
did.
So my website and it also I puton any upcoming workshops or
presentations and some of thepeople, if they're in that area,
(50:36):
they can attend or listen to.
If it's a virtual one, and so Iguess that's one of the best
ways to see what I'm doing andwhere I might be presenting.
And if it's a student, I teachat Columbia University, so come
do my REBT course.
If you're doing a master's or adoctorate in psychology, yeah,
(50:59):
there you go All right, awesome.
Christina McKelvy (51:01):
Well, thank you.
And yeah, thank you again.
And to everyone listening, Iinspire you to check out her
website.
Look at the self care sheet.
I think that's fabulous.
And you know, I just give hopefor all.
Dr. Debbie Joffe Ellis (51:16):
Thank you to.
Thanks again, christina.
And where there's life, therereally is hope.
Till the moment we're not hereanymore, then there's hope for
the end of the blues dead, butwith his life is hope.
Let's cherish life.
Christina McKelvy (51:32):
Yes, where there's life, there's hope.
I think that's a great endingright there.
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