November 21, 2023 • 48 mins
Navigating the complex intersection of cultural identity and mental health can be a challenging journey. Listen to our fascinating conversation with esteemed psychologist, Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, MMFT, PhD as she unearths the often hidden struggles and victories of the decolonization therapy movement. Dr. Yeghnazar Peck shares her personal experiences as a daughter of Middle Eastern immigrants and how her journey propelled her to address the gaps in mental health support for children of immigrants. This episode is a candid exploration of the realities involved in bringing cultural awareness into therapeutic spaces.
As a daughter of immigrants, Pauline wrestles with the persistent gaps embedded within the field of psychology. She shares her narrative of confronting feelings of shame and unworthiness while trying to fit into a mold that didn't reflect her cultural background. How can one unlearn these learned behaviors and incorporate diverse voices into a practice? We explore this question in-depth, and we hope our candid discussions will resonate with others, offering a sense of community and connection, an ongoing theme of every podcast episode.
Our conversation also delves into the crucial role personal experiences and biases play in a therapeutic relationship. We examine the impact of white supremacy culture on therapy, the importance of recognizing and honoring cultural differences, and the power of community in healing. It's time we moved away from the traditional "blank slate" approach and embraced a more holistic, inclusive approach in therapy. Together, we can start exploring the profound potential for collective healing and generational transformation. Tune in for a transformative discussion that reviews the role of cultural identity within the field of psychology and the profound potential for collective healing.
Learn more about Dr. Yeghnazar Peck:
https://linktr.ee/paulinethepsychologist
Resources:
- Group Practice Website
- ww.noortherapyandwellness.com
- Free Translation Guide for Communicating with Your Immigrant Parents
- https://view.flodesk.com/pages/62a3ca9c2970eef0ed10ffbd
- -this gives them access to my newsletter where I dive deeper into many of the topics I address on social media for the daughters of immigrants and mental health
- Free CULTURED Book Club: monthly curated picks on all things children of immigrants x mental health (e.g., intergenerational trauma, immigration, cultural identity development)
- https://view.flodesk.com/pages/63d7f220b4f015f30446e28f
- Two support groups
- My “Khâhar” (sister): A Therapy Group for the Daughters of Immigrants
- https://www.noortherapyandwellness.com/services/group-therapy
- “Birds of a Feather”: A BIPOC Clinicians Support Group
Information on where you can find us.
Follow us on Instagram: @hopeologypodcast and the host @writerchristinamckelvy
To support the show, go to: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeologypodcast
Disclaimer: The views reflected by any of the guests may not reflect the views of the podcast host. Some topics may be difficult for some viewers, so proceed at your own risk. This podcast does not replace psychotherap
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina McKelvy (00:00):
Welcome to Apology.
Stories of Hope, healing andResilience.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie, for this episode.
We speak with Dr PaulineGekizar-Pet, a licensed
psychologist who specializes inworking with intercultural
couples and daughters ofimmigrants.
As a child of Middle Easternimmigrants herself, Pauline has
navigated the complex crossroadsof cultural identity and mental
health in her personal andprofessional life.
(00:21):
She vividly recounts herjourney from the struggles of
growing up in an immigranthousehold specifically being a
daughter of an immigrant to herdeep dive into white Western
psychology during her highereducation, getting her
doctorates.
Pauline doesn't shy away fromunpacking the challenges of
reconciling her family's uniquecultural experiences with
Western Eurocentric psychology.
She shares her transformativejourney of unlearning and
(00:45):
re-learning, replacing textbooktheories with insights gleaned
from her own lived experiences.
She also thoughtfully discussesthe crucial role of therapist
accountability, emphasizing howunderstanding one's capabilities
can lead to a more meaningfuland effective therapeutic
relationship.
So join us for an engaging,insightful conversation where we
unmask the nuances of mentalhealth in the lens of cultural
(01:08):
identity.
We're going to be right back.
(01:47):
Welcome to Hopology Stories ofHope, healing and Resilience.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie.
Today we have Dr PaulineYagnazar-Pec, a licensed
psychologist out of New York andCalifornia.
Welcome, Pauline, how are you?
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, (02:00):
Hi , I'm so glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for joining us.
Christina McKelvy (02:05):
So you know, today I just want to kind of
pick your brain a little bitabout your focus, your area of
focus, how you came to work inyour field.
So tell our audience a littlebit about what you do and what
that looks like.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, (02:17):
Sounds good.
So yeah, I'm a licensedpsychologist and I'm physically
located in Santa Barbara and itwas a long and windy road that
ended up with me being here.
But even farther back, if Ikind of trace the story, I was
born in Iran and born to anArmenian family.
(02:37):
There we, just a few yearsbefore I was born, the entire
country had gone throughmilitary coup, completely
changed regimes and we were inthe middle of an eight-year long
war with Iraq.
So lots of turmoil and so manyof my family members extended
(02:58):
family members, you know,friends, all of the family,
friend and network, especiallyChristians, who at that time
were being kind of persecutedunder the new regime fled to
either America or Australia orEngland.
So my family immigrated.
So I grew up in Los Angeles.
That's where my mom's side ofthe family was.
So I grew up in Los Angeles and, coming from a Middle Eastern
(03:21):
background where education is sokind of drilled in as a big way
to move forward, you know, Imoved on, got a master's, had
some life events happen, changedto another master's in another
field, which was mental healthand psychology, went on to get a
PhD and I landed in SantaBarbara as part of my internship
, which is the last year of yourPhD program, stayed for postdoc
(03:45):
, met someone, got married twokids later I'm still here.
You know, the work that I do isalmost like it was a calling
and something that found merather than me find it.
Growing up, especially in aMiddle Eastern household, I did
not think I would ever be apsychologist.
I think I wanted to be a lawyerand an actress.
I would flip-flop depending onwhat was going on in my life,
(04:07):
but it really wasn't even like acareer choice that was
presented.
It wasn't modeled.
Everyone was a doctor, anengineer and not this kind of
doctor, you know, like a medicaldoctor, a dentist, an engineer,
a lawyer.
These were kind of acceptablethings.
And it wasn't until, like I said, I was in another program.
It wasn't until my mom got sickwith cancer, again ended up
(04:29):
passing away and me having myown mental health struggles and
issues just kind of from my ownfamily upbringing that came
about and my own relationshipissues that came, that brought
up that childhood stuff.
It wasn't until my own mentalhealth was something I needed to
attend to that I realized thereare gaps in what I received and
(04:53):
I want to be a part of fillingin those gaps.
And so the long and windy storyof why I do what I do, which is
specializing in working withthe daughters of immigrants and
with intercultural couples, isbecause my own life story, my
own immigration story, my ownstory of loss, my own story of
trying to understand myself, allof those things have really
(05:15):
illuminated the gaps that existin mental health for the
children of immigrants that Iwant to be a part of filling in.
Christina McKelvy (05:25):
So you notice the gaps based off of your own
upbringing and your ownexperience, and that was when
you're like I need to helpcontribute to filling in these
pieces.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (05:35):
Yeah , absolutely.
And I think even before I knewI wanted to help others, I just
almost followed where the gapswere in my own life, in my own
understanding, and I think thatanytime I move forward and
trying to figure out somethingfor myself, in hindsight it was
helping me develop how to serveothers.
(05:57):
But I didn't go in to serveothers.
I was just following my ownpain, following my own confusion
, following my own identitydevelopment.
It was like just continuing tobe in a place of self-inquiry
and self-reflection and seekingto make sense of myself that
(06:17):
ultimately has led me to serveothers.
But even as I was kind ofasking the questions for myself,
I didn't quite realize in turnthat's going to help me support
somebody else.
And I think that that's probablythe same for so many people
with their own experience.
They don't go in wanting tohelp people that were just like
them.
They kind of end up there afterbeing in the process of trying
(06:41):
to help themselves and figurethemselves out from a pain point
, a difficult experience orwhatever it is, and then, as you
are able to see what works,then I think there can be this
excitement and this very naturalaltruistic quality of then
being able to support those thatmaybe you would have to support
(07:05):
others in the ways that youwished there was support for you
when you were going through it.
And so, again, I don't know ifI started out.
I never started out wanting tobe a psychologist and I never
started out from the get-gosaying I'm going to help
daughters of immigrants.
But I've landed there becauseof my own life experience and
because I almost never gave upon my own self-inquiry and
trying to support and make senseof myself.
Christina McKelvy (07:27):
Yeah, you mentioned something I think
really important.
As a therapist myself, youwanted to help those in ways
where you were not receivinghelp yourself throughout your
journey.
I know for myself, as I was acaregiver and now I want to help
caregivers and similartrajectory, and I think I'm
curious how your education,getting a doctorate in
(07:49):
psychology may have informedyour work either positively or
negatively, especially workingwith daughters of immigrants and
intercultural couples.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (07:58):
Yeah , absolutely, I think that
you're so right.
I think when we're in anexperience and we learn the
nuances of it and we're justattuned to what does and doesn't
help, what does and doesn'tpoint you closer to a direction
of feeling supported, validatedand that's more resilient, I
think that helps us to createthe roadmap for how to support
(08:22):
others through it, even if theirjourney may have very
considerable and significantdifferences than ours.
And I think that, while theeducation that I received was
very useful in providing someframeworks knowing the theories,
obviously understanding some ofthe basics of the science of
psychology I really don't thinkit helped in, like you said, how
(08:49):
it influenced negatively islike I don't think it helped in
really figuring out how to servemy population, because the
psychological theories I'mlearning or was learning,
they're not based in thepopulations and they're not
normed on the populations that Iwork with.
They're coming from whitemodels, coming from white
(09:13):
families, coming from whiterelationships and even the kind
of fathers and grandfathers ofpsychology being white and also
racism is so genetic.
But that's for another day islike a lot of the things that I
learned, as this is psychology,like the canon of psychology,
just like you've got the canonin English or history or whatnot
(09:33):
, is always going to be slantedand biased, kind of based on the
place that you're learning it.
So I learned Western psychologyand white psychology and yet it
was never framed as that, itwas just framed as capital P
psychology.
They didn't say, hey look, thisis white psychology that you're
(09:53):
learning, based on whiteWestern norms.
That was never, ever, everstated.
And so I think so much of thecontinuing to follow the line in
my own life that I was justtalking about was kind of saying
here I am getting a degree inthese subjects, why don't they
fit for my life?
I'm learning about thesetheories, why does it?
(10:14):
My family look like this, talklike this, and for years there
was such tremendous shame andthat's part of the.
Because I've experienced it, Iwant to help.
I experienced so much shamebecause, even as I was studying
in higher education to become aprofessional in this, I was
(10:35):
still feeling like my ownpersonal life didn't somehow map
on to what I was learning abouthealthy relationships, family
structure and even mechanismsfor change, and I felt so.
I felt kind of like a fraud.
I felt like, oh my gosh, thisis stuff that I can't talk about
or I shouldn't bring this up orI shouldn't ask this in class.
(10:56):
I felt a lot of shame around myown family.
I felt a lot of judgment aroundmy own family, like, oh my gosh
, we didn't talk about thesethings in my family.
I grew up in such an emotionallydepraved environment and, yes,
I think there were things thatwere missing, that I didn't even
know were missing, and yetthere were also things that were
just different and they weren'tframed as different.
So I think that while I gotsome basics in psychology and
(11:21):
okay, this is what depressioncould look like I didn't get.
This is what depression canlook like in a high functioning
eldest daughter of immigrants.
That I had to learn from theclinical and my own life
experiences, and it was hardbecause it wasn't validated by
the theory that was in the book.
So I have this gap between whatI knew in my bones, what I knew
from seeing the women that I'dgrown up with, and what I was
(11:44):
told from the textbooks.
So so much of my own journeypost-graduation was critically
analyzing what I got in gradschool, unlearning so much of it
and then allowing my own livedexperience and the experience of
others even without this likevalid, legitimized theory.
(12:05):
I allowed that to lead the wayand I feel like now you know
years out of grad school and youknow 12 plus years starting the
therapy journey, I feel likeI'm just hitting that stride of
like.
Okay, I'm seeing the ways inwhich what I learned was kind of
helpful, but I've unlearned andthen learn new things from my
(12:26):
own experience and theexperience clinically and
personally from my life, andI've kind of created this sort
of hybrid with all of that.
And, like I said, part of myown journey was the shame of it.
And I think I felt, looking back, very shameful in my graduate
programs and very alone andalienated because my own
(12:46):
personal experiences didn't feellike they made sense with what
we were learning.
And funny enough, you know,looking back and then talking
about it with other people in mycohort, women of color felt the
same way and yet none of uswere talking about that.
We have like very, very muchvalidated this unlearning that
has to happen Because you knowif you're brown, if you're black
(13:10):
, if you're from immigrantfamilies, you're not going to be
learning about the psychologythat feels relevant to you from
the canon, from the uppercapital letter P.
You're not gonna be learningall the theories, all the things
that you're told, thelegitimate things, all the I'm
(13:31):
gonna put in quotes hereevidence-based practices, which
that's useful for certainpopulations, but when it's as
the standard, it loses thequestion of for whom.
And I think my own experience offeeling like something doesn't
fit.
I'm learning this, I'm gettinggood at it.
Why doesn't it make sense formy own life?
How come I'm not having a haasin my own personal experience?
(13:52):
I must, something must be wrongwith me, I must be doing it
wrong, I must be whatever it isfill in the blank for something
negative.
That's what I was doing.
I was doing that internalizedhatred and shame.
That happens, and, I think,only when I've kind of realized,
oh, what you were learningwasn't relevant to you because
it wasn't built for you, andallowed myself and gave myself
(14:13):
permission to begin buildingthat with the other voices that
are building these parallel,just as important psychologies
for non-white populations.
I think that's when it feelslike psychology got really
interesting to me, rather thananother tool for self-hatred,
self-confusion or internalizingan unworthiness.
Christina McKelvy (14:34):
Internalizing an unworthiness.
That's how that shame showed up.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (14:39):
Yeah , yeah, something must be wrong
with me.
Christina McKelvy (14:43):
Something must be wrong with my family.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (14:46):
I've got to change.
And then you try and fit themold.
That is not built for you andyou don't fit it.
And then there's even more shamebecause it feels like you're
failing, you're not trying hardenough, and so I think that
there was a lot of that going on.
Personally, I was getting allthese degrees, doing really well
, and my personal relationshipswere suffering.
I wasn't able to really makesense of myself and I hid those
(15:10):
things.
I felt like I was going throughthings in such an alienated and
isolated way, even though, likeI said, talking to other women
of color from graduate programs,even if they weren't from mine,
many, many, many of them feelthis way.
So I wasn't alone, but I feltalone, and I think that's what I
do right now is so importantbecause, if nothing else, I'm
(15:31):
putting out there that you'renot alone, and if one daughter
of immigrant can hear this andsay, oh my goodness, I felt like
that, whether it was inbusiness school, whether it was
in this school, I felt likesomething about my own personal
experience didn't map onto whatwas being taught as the standard
, and if they can bypass theyears of shame and internalize
(15:52):
unworthiness and just go to oh Iwonder if that's because these
are from Western norms thataren't mapped onto me.
Let me look at what exists forcollectivistic cultures and let
me see why I do struggle in theworkplace, Like if they can ask
that question rather than goinginto chain spiral.
I mean, I think I can feel likemy work has been done.
Christina McKelvy (16:12):
It's a full circle for you.
Yeah, yeah, Tell me a littlebit how you know what your work
looks like.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (16:19):
I've got so many different hats that
I wear.
One of the biggest hats is mama.
So I've got two young, almostthree year old.
He'll be three here in a coupleof weeks and it ain't month old
.
And so that is, you know, oneof my.
It's the hardest work and it'sthe deepest work, and I think
that the more and more I'm inthe world of psychology and part
(16:42):
of the decolonizing therapymovement, I'm realizing that who
you are as a person reallymatters.
And you know, they always saythe personal is political and it
is.
The personal is professional,in the sense that there is no
real bifurcation.
Yes, my daughter isn't with mewhen I'm doing therapy, but she
is with me in the way that Ithink, in the way that she's
transformed me and the way thatmy children impact me, in the
(17:03):
way that I think about my ownupbringing, the way I support
other parents, and so I start myday with them, I end my day
with them, and so I have kind ofchanged up my schedule to be
really able to be present withthem.
In the mornings, the middle ofthe day I'm with clients and
I'll tell you a little bit aboutthe multiple ways that I work
with clients and then atnighttime I'm out of here in
(17:25):
time to do daycare, pick up, tobe home, to do the whole dinner
bathing kind of nighttimeroutine and that's really
important for me.
I think that quite I had kids,I was working a lot more and you
know I was able to like work athome and do all of that and I'm
more flexible.
Sometimes they go down and I'mstill working on something,
especially in different seasonswhere you know there is more to
(17:47):
do, but I really try and beavailable and present and
because I own my own grouppractice and everything that I
do is really I have a lot of sayand agency in it.
I'm conscious of how I don'teven believe in work-life
balance, but I think that youknow I work and I am a parent
(18:07):
and so they're defensive ofbeing really present and
available to them.
So my kids are a large part ofkind of my everyday and
definitely on the weekends.
And then I work with clients ina number of different ways.
I have the group practice, basedin Santa Barbara, providing
therapy services individual,couples, group and family with
(18:27):
my two associates all overCalifornia as well, as I'm
licensed in New York and I'vegot a handful of New York
clients as well.
So we do therapy both in-personas well as telehealth and my
practice is like you know, I'dsay two thirds individuals and a
third couples love, loveworking with couples.
(18:48):
And then I also work in thiskind of more non-therapy, but
still focused on healing andpsychopsychoeducation.
I also have programs that areone-to-one as well as a group
program and that is open towomen globally.
So through that program I getto work with lots of women from
(19:09):
lots of different places, whichis always so cool that you can
be in a different continent andhave a completely different
ethnicity and a completelydifferent immigration story and
still have some of the universalthings that I teach and guide
through the programs, make senseand land.
It's like, oh, this is trulyuniversal, even if you didn't
immigrate from Iran to America.
(19:30):
So it feels really amazing thatI'm able to do that.
And then, you know, thrown intothe little pockets of the day
where I'm in with clients,either through my programs or
through my therapy, I've got abunch of social media stuff that
I do, whether it's a podcast,whether it's running my own
Instagram page and putting outreels and doing fun things or
(19:51):
sharing bits and pieces Usuallymy musings as I'm walking to and
from you know, and just sharingthose little bits of those ahas
that come to me as I am stilldiscovering all the ways in
which being a child ofimmigrants impacts your life,
and so I really share thatpersonal piece.
I'm not just a professional.
(20:12):
I think even just the way thatwe set up professionals is very
much based in the Western modelblank slate, don't tell them
anything, not just honoring thefull humanity.
Like you said, it's like notone size fits all.
You have to really think aboutthe individual in front of you.
I also have turned that lens inon myself.
I'm not just a professional.
I am the professional I am,which includes my own life
(20:35):
experience, which includes myown struggles, and, of course,
I'm not sharing beyond what youknow, what would take over from
clients or something that I'mworking through.
I respect what feels right forme in terms of sharing and I
only share what I'm comfortablesharing or I've gotten to a
place where I can open up aboutit.
But I absolutely feel like mysocial media is a part of
(20:58):
putting out there that you knowyou're not some blank slate
professional.
Being you and honoring thefullness of your humanity is
just as important as what wegive to clients, and I try and
practice what I preach in that.
Christina McKelvy (21:15):
And self-disclosure was always, when
I was in school, when we werein school taboo.
You don't want to self-disclose, you want to be blank slate and
I like you.
I haven't found that to behelpful.
You know clients appreciatewhen we're human.
God forbid.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (21:29):
Yeah , yeah, and I think that you
know part of that also.
It's almost like this is themetaphor that I sometimes use
for it it's almost like colorblindness and just saying like I
don't see color, everybody isthe same.
It's kind of like saying I'mnot a real person, I'm just a
professional.
And I think what that does isit actually erases bias, your
(21:53):
actual lived experience and whatyou will or will not be able to
relate to potentially, becauseif you haven't experienced it or
maybe you haven't worked withit professionally, then maybe
you're not the right fit.
I think part of this you're ablank slate actually excuses
biases.
It excuses, you know, the factthat there is a history of the
(22:15):
field of psychology not doingright in marginal, with
marginalized populations, likeeven I like to think like even
50, 60 years ago the DSM hadhomosexuality as a diagnosis,
right, right, so we're not 300years away from it, but within
the last 100 years that was amental disease, that was an
(22:41):
illness that you could bediagnosed with rather than like
just a natural part of youridentity.
And so I think that when we saythis blank slate piece, I'm just
professional and I'm totallyequipped to work with you we
really you race that there aresubtle ways in which racism,
misogyny, all sorts of isms getget into the field of psychology
(23:03):
and we erase the history of howthe field of psychology has not
always worked well with, andstill isn't working well with,
marginalized populations,disenfranchising them,
pathologizing them, judging them, not serving them well.
And so I think part of themovement to decolonize therapy
is also a greater accountabilityis like, if I know who you are
as a person and how you live,what your values are, how you're
(23:26):
working on your biases, whetheryou've had professional
training and working with peoplelike me, that's going to
actually allow me to have alittle bit more safety as a
person of color.
And so you come in, andespecially because coming in
means I'm taking a huge act ofmaking a huge step of courage,
because your field has hurt megreatly and said a lot of
(23:49):
negative things about me greatlyand historically hasn't served
me.
And you showing up as a person,you having your identity be a
part of the conversation, isactually part of safety,
accountability building andtaking responsibility for the
history of our fields.
So I actually think it's notjust like nice.
I think it's actually essentialfor moving forward that we
(24:10):
begin to position the therapistas a human.
That's actually increasingaccountability, making us look
at the past, making us look atthe history and making us have
to call out whether we are orare not, are not equipped to
work with people Like I say.
I am not equipped Like I'llgive an example, I am not to
(24:31):
work with substance abuse.
I'm not.
I grew up in a family that wasreally religious.
I haven't had my ownexperiences.
I don't really know a lot ofpeople that have their amazing
clinicians out there, where thisis what they know.
Maybe they've lived in it,maybe they're in recovery, maybe
they've supported peoplethrough recovery.
Maybe this is part of theirpain points for their family.
That's not me, and so I knowthat I even if I could probably
(24:55):
provide some space for it learnabout it a little bit.
I wouldn't be the absolute yesto that, and I like to take on
clients that are my absolute yes, because that's when I'm going
to serve them best and that'swhere I'm going to feel like I'm
operating in the place where Iam optimized and this is like in
line with and in flow with whatI consider my strengths and
(25:17):
talents, and so it's one ofthose things where I have no
shame in saying, oh, that's not,that's not my absolute yes, and
so I refer out If someone camein.
I just had someone just a coupleof days ago in and out of
recovery and I support aroundhim and his wife.
I'm like I've got a few reallygreat referrals to you.
That wouldn't be me, and Ithink that if you're this blank
slate, it's almost like again,you are the all knowing, you've
(25:43):
got no biases, you can work withanybody, and it's like on are
those days.
I think we're working withpeople that are so much more
informed, and culture is a partof that conversation.
What do you think about thispolitically?
Have you worked with peoplethat look like me?
What are your own experienceswith blah, blah blah?
Those are questions that arecoming up on my intake and I'm
so here for that because, again,it's not just important for the
(26:06):
client's safety, it's importantfor the therapist's
accountability and owning.
What is for?
Yes, what are the clients andthe populations you are equipped
to work with and what are theones that you're not?
And either you go and you gettraining and you work with it,
or you just say that's not forme and you refer out, and that I
think needs to happen for thefield to be accountable and
(26:29):
responsible as well.
Christina McKelvy (26:31):
Sounds like when you are telling your
clients like I, really Iunderstand you're increasing
that to met with your clientsand they can set safety.
Pauline Yeghnazar Pe (26:39):
Absolutely , and I think you can do it in a
way that is not all about you,I think you can do it in a way
that and that's the thing withgrad school like you were saying
, self-disposure is taboo.
I think so many of the thingsthat I learned in grad school
and now realizing they're partof white supremacy culture
things like black and whitethinking or having an expert on
(27:00):
something, having a yes or no,it's either allowed or it's not
allowed Whereas I think part ofmoving away from that is
recognizing the grade,recognizing that it depends,
recognizing when would it behelpful, when would it not be
helpful.
It's much messier, but it's somuch more applicable to life.
So is there a place where youtalk about your own struggles,
(27:22):
especially ones that you'restill working through?
Absolutely not.
That wouldn't be useful to theclient in front of you.
Is it useful for me, assomebody who's struggling and
feeling like they're the onlyone that I tell them look,
you're in your 20s, you'refiguring out your identity
development.
You're figuring.
You know your parents arefiguring out how to treat you
differently.
You're not really seen as afull fledged adult in your
(27:44):
culture.
I've been there, I know I hadmy own flight and I know we've
got a lot of differences.
What are the hardest parts foryou?
Something like that as aself-disclosure that says this
happens to us, and again, you'dhave to be in the us, have
self-disclosed that you also area child of immigrants to then
begin that conversation.
(28:04):
And so I think that there is away to do self-disclosure in a
way that is useful, increasingthat attunement, helping people
feel less alone, while still,you know it, honoring and
acknowledging that we've gotvery critical differences.
I say Middle Eastern, that's ahuge population, so many
different ethnicities, so manydifferent nationalities, so many
(28:26):
different religions.
So I can only speak to myexperience.
And yet I think that when welearn this, like, yes, you do
this, no, you don't do that,you're really missing all of the
gray.
And you're missing most timesin those very black and white
ways of thinking.
You're missing people thatdon't look like that white norm
(28:47):
and come into therapy for thisvery particular kind of therapy.
And so I really, yeah, I reallyappreciate where things are
going now with people saying no,I learned that as a rule.
And for whom, for whom is thata rule?
And let's ask when would thisbe useful?
For what populations?
And those are the questionsthat I'm really loving.
That literally gives me hopeabout where we're headed.
Christina McKelvy (29:11):
It gives you hope.
Yeah.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, M (29:17):
I mean for humans.
I think in general we heal incommunity.
We're social beings, we'redesigned for that and yet
anytime we feel that we'redifferent, it's always that
we're bad, we're worse than.
And there can be such shame inthat, especially in shame-based
cultures like collectivisticcultures, where you kind of
separate from the herd whenyou're not up to whatever it is,
(29:40):
because you don't want to harmyour reputation.
You want to save face, and so Ithink that part of not just
decolonizing therapy butreducing the stigma for mental
health is putting some of thesethings out there and allowing us
to come back together in acommunity where the greatest
amount of healing happens.
(30:00):
I definitely did my healingbehind closed doors, by myself,
alienated, and it's longer andit's harder, and I'm just so
happy that people are able tohave a sense of community,
whether it's physical communityor whether it's an online
community, social media.
I think, whatever the perils,it's a tool and it can be
(30:21):
amazing for creating thatcommunity for the children of
immigrants, and I see the waysin which healing is accelerated
when we allow ourselves to be apart of these groups and speak
about our collective experiences, even while, like I said,
honoring the individual thingsthat might be very unique to you
(30:43):
.
So I'm really excited to bejust kind of a small voice in
the many voices that are saying,yeah, this makes sense for me
and I want to provide this andjoining arms with other sisters,
other daughters of immigrantsto do this work.
We don't have to do it alone.
Which, again, is very white andRemembrancey culture is like
(31:03):
you have to build it.
You have to build it alone.
It's only you.
It's competition rather thanits collaboration, its community
, it's healing, it's liftingeach other up.
That's what collectivisticculture the positives, that's
what they offer is us together,us in this healthy kind of
dependence on one another.
Christina McKelvy (31:27):
I'm sitting with that for a moment.
It's been a theme probablyevery podcast episode I've been
recording and I think I say thisin every episode as well.
But it's been a theme thatcommunity is so important and
uniting together, moving forward.
And when I ask people, you know, what gave them resilience,
(31:51):
what brings them hope, how dothey heal?
I very rarely have a hurtingone to say well, I did it all on
my own, pulled up my bootstraps.
Have you had to hear that?
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (32:02):
Yeah , yeah, we need each other.
And we need people who canparticularly relate to certain
experiences.
You know I have a free bookclub that I run called Cultured,
and it's all things mentalhealth, identity for the
children of immigrants.
And you know we read a fewmonths back every month.
(32:22):
The pick that we have gives meso much.
But a few months back we readthe Good Immigrant 26 stories of
different immigrants abouttheir experiences and again, so
many differences between me andevery single writer that the
resonance was there.
I think finding the rightcommunity is important because
if you're going to an all whitegroup, whatever the topic, let's
(32:46):
say you're recovering fromwhatever it is right.
It's a group for support for thesurvivors of sexual abuse.
If there's no mention ofculture and you're culturally
different than everybody elseeverybody else is white, you're
from a brown family there'sgoing to be certain parts of it
that are not going to be asuseful.
Like in Farsi, there's thisphrase called mi chaspid, and mi
(33:10):
chaspid like I guess the youngpeople today would say, like it
hits you know, Okay, like it'stechnically translated, it
sticks, mi chaspid.
It sticks and it fixed meanslike it's hitting the spot, so
you can be fed, fed communitypeople, great.
(33:30):
Or you can have it likebedchasp.
It can be that level of it hits, because the experiences that
you're reading in that book,talking about in one of the
group programs, talking aboutwith me and individual therapy,
you know these feel like theyare speaking to the nuances of
your particular experience,things that you maybe never even
(33:53):
thought somebody else couldrelate to.
I'll give a personal experience.
Just a few weeks back on Friday, on my social media page, I
always I put out Friday favoriterits which are just like things
from the week that made me cry,laugh, think it's like across
the board, just things that Isaved and I put them out there.
And there was one from, I think,the account Persian, and it was
(34:17):
like you know, shout out toanybody else whose parent made
them do this and it was somebodywalking on their parents' backs
.
So the parent flat on theground, like face down on the
ground, and the kid like walkingon the parents' back to crack
their back and it just like Ialmost dropped my phone.
My mom would do that would belike come walk on my back and it
was something that I literallythought nobody else would do and
(34:40):
, honestly, like I've never eventalked about it.
I never mentioned to a friendand there was probably some part
of it that the word that alwayscomes up is like it was weird.
It was weird.
I never talked about it becauseit was this weird thing my mom
wanted.
And here it is.
As a 39 year old, I'm seeingthis on the page for Persian and
the other thing that I follow,saying like shout out to the
(35:01):
night.
Put on my page.
Who else can relate?
That's the mother.
Women were like me too.
I had them do that too.
It's like those are the kindsof moments I am still having as
an almost 40 year old womanwho's been here since she was
four.
So, you know, if that happens tome, I'm not going to get that
from another page.
(35:22):
That's a Euro.
You know?
European American persontalking about their family
experience.
Like they're going to have theirown thing.
I'm not putting that down.
They're going to have their ownthing.
But there's something differentwhen me, chaspé, and it just
hits you differently.
It makes sense to you, it'scompletely tailored to you.
That's what I mean by it isdesigned for you.
(35:44):
Those are, I think, the mosthealing moments, where it's not
just a person, because sometimeswe can feel lonely even when
we're not alone.
You can be in quote unquotecommunity, aka around other
people, but if they're notresonating with some of the
depths of your experience, it'snot a everything has to line up.
(36:06):
That doesn't even happen in amarriage, you know, it doesn't
happen with your own siblingsthat grew up in the same
household as you.
But if there aren't thosecritical, nuanced, subtle, deep
connecting points, it's notgoing to be very healing.
You might actually feel evenmore alienated, even though
you're in a group of peopletrying to heal and that's why it
is so important that we havethese collective spaces for
(36:29):
BIPOC folk and then breakingthat down into even further
identifications.
So that people feel like theirparticular experiences are
really, really seen andvalidated.
That's the kind of healing, thedepth of healing that I think
has been missing from this.
Like we all need people to heal, like, yes, what kinds of
(36:50):
people and what is the mechanismof healing.
It's like when you are deeply,deeply seen and the parts of you
you thought weird, yourecognize are just cultural
differences from the norms andthe standards that you saw I do.
That's when the healing happensand you realize it's just
different.
It's not worse than, less than,and then there's less shame.
(37:13):
There's less shame and lessonshame is part of it Because,
look, I was in communities,gradual communities, doing.
I felt so much shame.
I kept feeling like myexperience was that weird
experience and I wasn't talkingabout it, because that's what
happens with shame.
And then, all of a sudden, itwas through.
I like to say it was throughthe daughters of immigrants
coming to therapy and telling methe things they were ashamed
(37:36):
about.
That I was like I mean too, andI wasn't saying it to them.
I was not saying it to thembecause I was having my own aha
moment as I was doing therapyfor them.
I was like, oh, my God, that'sexactly my.
So those things I think thatbecoming a psychologist, even
the process of becoming apsychologist, is really what
saved me, because I got to hearpeople's secrets, the things
(37:59):
they thought weird, the thingsthey were ashamed about, and
then realizing that's what I'mholding shame about.
I've taken those things and I ambroadcasting them, as these are
just cultural differences, andthis is because what we see
modeled even in mental health,it's not built for you.
So there's nothing wrong withyou.
You're just culturallydifferent.
(38:19):
So you need different theories,you need different ways of
thinking about your family.
I've got a course on settingboundaries with your immigrant
parents, because it is a wholedifferent ball game than just
walking up to your mom andsaying I have asked you to
respect my boundaries, pleasedon't talk to me like that.
It's like no, that's not goingto fly.
Or you're not going to say thatto grandma and 78 cultural
(38:40):
norms.
You're not going to do thatbecause that would be harmful to
you, that's not an effectiveway of doing it.
So everything that I got tohear in this sacred, sacred
space of therapy, I realized Ihad those internal things that I
was holding so shamefully onto.
And in letting go of that shameand creating a space where we
(39:01):
can talk about those things.
That's where my own healing hascontinued and that's where I am
hopefully part of catalyzingand accelerating the healing for
other people.
Christina McKelvy (39:14):
You didn't start off by saying I'm going to
start healing others, I'm goingto be a psychologist.
But now, here you are.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, M (39:21):
I am.
It's like I almost feel like Ididn't try to run from destiny.
But what I truly believe inwhat's meant for you is meant
for you and if you continuebeing honest with yourself, you
continue checking in withyourself.
It's like full circle, kind of.
At the end of this is likeagain chasing, listening into,
(39:43):
tuning into, following thatself-inquiry, that deep
connection to self, thequestions that you keep asking
and trying to answer them.
It's not answering that thatgives you all the answers,
because answering them justhopefully is going to bring up
new questions.
It's following the questionsthat are being asked why doesn't
this fit?
Following the pain points foryou, what's happening here?
(40:07):
The more we can be curious inour own lives, we will map out
onto where we're meant to be.
I didn't have to, and I saythat to people who are like
where am I meant to be?
Where am I supposed to go?
What's the right career choice?
It's like I don't know.
But let's start with developingthat voice of introspection,
because if you keep askingyourself, I promise you you will
(40:28):
end up where you are meant tobe and it's not a destination,
by the way where you're meant tobe.
And end up is just the startingpoint for continuing to go, go,
go, go.
Life is continuous evolution,but if you keep asking yourself,
you're going to end up doingthe work that will be most
healing to self and other.
(40:48):
The ultimate thing is that eventhough we're so different,
we're also deeply the same.
So through difference we get tosameness and through
self-pealing I get to helpingand supporting others.
It's like it's all one in thesame and that's, I think,
finally where I feel like I amin my career, in my life.
Oh my gosh, I'm speaking like amiddle-aged person, and I guess
(41:12):
I am.
I'm like in my middle age, 35to 55.
Christina McKelvy (41:15):
I just found out the other day is middle-aged
, so here we are.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, (41:19):
Oh , here we are.
But I'm feeling that I'm like,oh, I'm surrendering to that.
I don't have to have all thequestions.
I think I just have to becurious about and committed to
finding the answers for myself,and that will lead me to where I
am meant to be.
That's part of destiny.
Christina McKelvy (41:37):
Now, that's part of destiny.
You had so many really goodtidbits that I just like in our
differences we find sameness andreally just following the
questions, I love that.
Pauline, my podcast is calledHopology and we are getting to
(41:58):
time.
I would like to ask this toeverybody that I interview, and
you have answered a little bitof the question earlier but what
gives you?
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (42:07):
hope .
What gives me hope is thismoment we're in where the field
of mental health is changing.
It's honoring the full humanityof the client at the same time
as we're allowing and invitingin the full humanity of the
therapist.
And in that we are realizingthat all personal healing is
(42:31):
collective healing, regardlessof which side of I say the
metaphorical couch, because noweven telehealth is changing how
we do therapy.
But I think it's the honoringof humanity both ways For the
person getting therapy andasking how are we serving your
particular identities and yourparticular struggles, as well as
(42:52):
allowing the fullness of thetherapist to be in the room and
not to be shameful, unethical orunprofessional, but actually
essential to the work of helpingsomebody else heal.
And I think it is so healing tothe client as well as healing
(43:12):
to the therapist.
And there's that collectivehealing that I think is sparking
something very, very new,because I think that the root of
so much trauma and mentalillness is deep, deep loneliness
.
And we are not just lonely whenwe're not in community with
others.
We are lonely when parts ofourselves are not validated and
(43:35):
supported.
So when we are disconnected,when I am not supposed to be
this Pauline the Pauline hasthoughts, that has experiences,
that's had pain when I have todisconnect and disown parts of
myself, that's an existentialloneliness that breeds shame,
that breeds dis-ease, and Ithink we're in.
(43:59):
What gives me hope is we're inthis moment of huge potential
that I'm already seeing but thathas not been fully realized of
bringing back those disownedparts and allowing for our
fullness of our humanity to leadto that collective healing that
we are so, so incrediblydesperate for and in need of.
(44:22):
So that's what gives me thehope every day, and if I could
be one small voice doing it andspeaking into it and creating
spaces for others to jump intothis, that will have been a life
well lived.
Christina McKelvy (44:39):
Yes, well, thank you for being a part of
this movement, this realizationof what therapy really needs to
be moving forward, and thank youso much for being here.
Really appreciated thisconversation and you are so
welcome.
Can I throw in one other thing?
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, (44:56):
Of course, another piece of it
that I will add is we are notjust healing ourselves.
We are healing the jet.
We are healing ourselves, weare healing the generations past
so that we can pass on healingto generations future.
Christina McKelvy (45:15):
We are healing the generations past so
we can pass on healing to thegenerations future.
Pauline Yeghnazar Pe (45:20):
Absolutely , because all the work I do
around intergenerational trauma.
We hold generations of traumain ourselves, so our personal
healing is not just collectivehealing, it's also historical
healing.
It is historical healingbecause historical healing or
historical trauma lives in youtoday.
So healing yourself iscollective healing because it
(45:44):
connects you, but it's alsohealing the past and allowing
for a healing for the future.
And that gives me hope, notjust as a therapist but as a
mother.
So it's just multiple layers ofhealing that are occurring.
Is the work that I'm doingwithin myself is allowing the
healing that my mother, mygrandmother and my great
grandmother didn't do and theancestors in my line from the
(46:06):
Armenians who were experiencedgenocide?
Christina McKelvy (46:08):
and so many different atrocities.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, (46:10):
That's all passed down and to know
that that's gonna change andthat my daughter, my son and
their children and theirgrandchildren they're not gonna
experience that, that reallygives me hope.
So it's not just a selfishwe're having this moment now,
it's the look at what thepotential is for this generation
(46:30):
of people, and I think not justage-wise, but people like you
said.
With this realization, lookwhat is possible for the future.
Christina McKelvy (46:40):
How it changes the future.
Well, thank you so much forthat and again, I appreciate you
being here.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, (46:46):
So thank you so much, thank you
for having me and letting mejust pour out my heart here.
Thanks a lot.
Christina McKelvy (46:53):
You're very welcome, thank you.
Welcome to Apology.
Stories of Hope, healing andResilience.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie, for this episode.
We speak with Dr PaulineGekizar-Pet, a licensed
psychologist who specializes inworking with intercultural
couples and daughters ofimmigrants.
As a child of Middle Easternimmigrants herself, Pauline has
navigated the complex crossroadsof cultural identity and mental
health in her personal andprofessional life.
(00:21):
She vividly recounts herjourney from the struggles of
growing up in an immigranthousehold specifically being a
daughter of an immigrant to herdeep dive into white Western
psychology during her highereducation, getting her
doctorates.
Pauline doesn't shy away fromunpacking the challenges of
reconciling her family's uniquecultural experiences with
Western Eurocentric psychology.
She shares her transformativejourney of unlearning and
(00:45):
re-learning, replacing textbooktheories with insights gleaned
from her own lived experiences.
She also thoughtfully discussesthe crucial role of therapist
accountability, emphasizing howunderstanding one's capabilities
can lead to a more meaningfuland effective therapeutic
relationship.
So join us for an engaging,insightful conversation where we
unmask the nuances of mentalhealth in the lens of cultural
(01:08):
identity.
We're going to be right back.
(01:47):
Welcome to Hopology Stories ofHope, healing and Resilience.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie.
Today we have Dr PaulineYagnazar-Pec, a licensed
psychologist out of New York andCalifornia.
Welcome, Pauline, how are you?
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, (02:00):
Hi , I'm so glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for joining us.
Christina McKelvy (02:05):
So you know, today I just want to kind of
pick your brain a little bitabout your focus, your area of
focus, how you came to work inyour field.
So tell our audience a littlebit about what you do and what
that looks like.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, (02:17):
Sounds good.
So yeah, I'm a licensedpsychologist and I'm physically
located in Santa Barbara and itwas a long and windy road that
ended up with me being here.
But even farther back, if Ikind of trace the story, I was
born in Iran and born to anArmenian family.
(02:37):
There we, just a few yearsbefore I was born, the entire
country had gone throughmilitary coup, completely
changed regimes and we were inthe middle of an eight-year long
war with Iraq.
So lots of turmoil and so manyof my family members extended
(02:58):
family members, you know,friends, all of the family,
friend and network, especiallyChristians, who at that time
were being kind of persecutedunder the new regime fled to
either America or Australia orEngland.
So my family immigrated.
So I grew up in Los Angeles.
That's where my mom's side ofthe family was.
So I grew up in Los Angeles and, coming from a Middle Eastern
(03:21):
background where education is sokind of drilled in as a big way
to move forward, you know, Imoved on, got a master's, had
some life events happen, changedto another master's in another
field, which was mental healthand psychology, went on to get a
PhD and I landed in SantaBarbara as part of my internship
, which is the last year of yourPhD program, stayed for postdoc
(03:45):
, met someone, got married twokids later I'm still here.
You know, the work that I do isalmost like it was a calling
and something that found merather than me find it.
Growing up, especially in aMiddle Eastern household, I did
not think I would ever be apsychologist.
I think I wanted to be a lawyerand an actress.
I would flip-flop depending onwhat was going on in my life,
(04:07):
but it really wasn't even like acareer choice that was
presented.
It wasn't modeled.
Everyone was a doctor, anengineer and not this kind of
doctor, you know, like a medicaldoctor, a dentist, an engineer,
a lawyer.
These were kind of acceptablethings.
And it wasn't until, like I said, I was in another program.
It wasn't until my mom got sickwith cancer, again ended up
(04:29):
passing away and me having myown mental health struggles and
issues just kind of from my ownfamily upbringing that came
about and my own relationshipissues that came, that brought
up that childhood stuff.
It wasn't until my own mentalhealth was something I needed to
attend to that I realized thereare gaps in what I received and
(04:53):
I want to be a part of fillingin those gaps.
And so the long and windy storyof why I do what I do, which is
specializing in working withthe daughters of immigrants and
with intercultural couples, isbecause my own life story, my
own immigration story, my ownstory of loss, my own story of
trying to understand myself, allof those things have really
(05:15):
illuminated the gaps that existin mental health for the
children of immigrants that Iwant to be a part of filling in.
Christina McKelvy (05:25):
So you notice the gaps based off of your own
upbringing and your ownexperience, and that was when
you're like I need to helpcontribute to filling in these
pieces.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (05:35):
Yeah , absolutely.
And I think even before I knewI wanted to help others, I just
almost followed where the gapswere in my own life, in my own
understanding, and I think thatanytime I move forward and
trying to figure out somethingfor myself, in hindsight it was
helping me develop how to serveothers.
(05:57):
But I didn't go in to serveothers.
I was just following my ownpain, following my own confusion
, following my own identitydevelopment.
It was like just continuing tobe in a place of self-inquiry
and self-reflection and seekingto make sense of myself that
(06:17):
ultimately has led me to serveothers.
But even as I was kind ofasking the questions for myself,
I didn't quite realize in turnthat's going to help me support
somebody else.
And I think that that's probablythe same for so many people
with their own experience.
They don't go in wanting tohelp people that were just like
them.
They kind of end up there afterbeing in the process of trying
(06:41):
to help themselves and figurethemselves out from a pain point
, a difficult experience orwhatever it is, and then, as you
are able to see what works,then I think there can be this
excitement and this very naturalaltruistic quality of then
being able to support those thatmaybe you would have to support
(07:05):
others in the ways that youwished there was support for you
when you were going through it.
And so, again, I don't know ifI started out.
I never started out wanting tobe a psychologist and I never
started out from the get-gosaying I'm going to help
daughters of immigrants.
But I've landed there becauseof my own life experience and
because I almost never gave upon my own self-inquiry and
trying to support and make senseof myself.
Christina McKelvy (07:27):
Yeah, you mentioned something I think
really important.
As a therapist myself, youwanted to help those in ways
where you were not receivinghelp yourself throughout your
journey.
I know for myself, as I was acaregiver and now I want to help
caregivers and similartrajectory, and I think I'm
curious how your education,getting a doctorate in
(07:49):
psychology may have informedyour work either positively or
negatively, especially workingwith daughters of immigrants and
intercultural couples.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (07:58):
Yeah , absolutely, I think that
you're so right.
I think when we're in anexperience and we learn the
nuances of it and we're justattuned to what does and doesn't
help, what does and doesn'tpoint you closer to a direction
of feeling supported, validatedand that's more resilient, I
think that helps us to createthe roadmap for how to support
(08:22):
others through it, even if theirjourney may have very
considerable and significantdifferences than ours.
And I think that, while theeducation that I received was
very useful in providing someframeworks knowing the theories,
obviously understanding some ofthe basics of the science of
psychology I really don't thinkit helped in, like you said, how
(08:49):
it influenced negatively islike I don't think it helped in
really figuring out how to servemy population, because the
psychological theories I'mlearning or was learning,
they're not based in thepopulations and they're not
normed on the populations that Iwork with.
They're coming from whitemodels, coming from white
(09:13):
families, coming from whiterelationships and even the kind
of fathers and grandfathers ofpsychology being white and also
racism is so genetic.
But that's for another day islike a lot of the things that I
learned, as this is psychology,like the canon of psychology,
just like you've got the canonin English or history or whatnot
(09:33):
, is always going to be slantedand biased, kind of based on the
place that you're learning it.
So I learned Western psychologyand white psychology and yet it
was never framed as that, itwas just framed as capital P
psychology.
They didn't say, hey look, thisis white psychology that you're
(09:53):
learning, based on whiteWestern norms.
That was never, ever, everstated.
And so I think so much of thecontinuing to follow the line in
my own life that I was justtalking about was kind of saying
here I am getting a degree inthese subjects, why don't they
fit for my life?
I'm learning about thesetheories, why does it?
(10:14):
My family look like this, talklike this, and for years there
was such tremendous shame andthat's part of the.
Because I've experienced it, Iwant to help.
I experienced so much shamebecause, even as I was studying
in higher education to become aprofessional in this, I was
(10:35):
still feeling like my ownpersonal life didn't somehow map
on to what I was learning abouthealthy relationships, family
structure and even mechanismsfor change, and I felt so.
I felt kind of like a fraud.
I felt like, oh my gosh, thisis stuff that I can't talk about
or I shouldn't bring this up orI shouldn't ask this in class.
(10:56):
I felt a lot of shame around myown family.
I felt a lot of judgment aroundmy own family, like, oh my gosh
, we didn't talk about thesethings in my family.
I grew up in such an emotionallydepraved environment and, yes,
I think there were things thatwere missing, that I didn't even
know were missing, and yetthere were also things that were
just different and they weren'tframed as different.
So I think that while I gotsome basics in psychology and
(11:21):
okay, this is what depressioncould look like I didn't get.
This is what depression canlook like in a high functioning
eldest daughter of immigrants.
That I had to learn from theclinical and my own life
experiences, and it was hardbecause it wasn't validated by
the theory that was in the book.
So I have this gap between whatI knew in my bones, what I knew
from seeing the women that I'dgrown up with, and what I was
(11:44):
told from the textbooks.
So so much of my own journeypost-graduation was critically
analyzing what I got in gradschool, unlearning so much of it
and then allowing my own livedexperience and the experience of
others even without this likevalid, legitimized theory.
(12:05):
I allowed that to lead the wayand I feel like now you know
years out of grad school and youknow 12 plus years starting the
therapy journey, I feel likeI'm just hitting that stride of
like.
Okay, I'm seeing the ways inwhich what I learned was kind of
helpful, but I've unlearned andthen learn new things from my
(12:26):
own experience and theexperience clinically and
personally from my life, andI've kind of created this sort
of hybrid with all of that.
And, like I said, part of myown journey was the shame of it.
And I think I felt, looking back, very shameful in my graduate
programs and very alone andalienated because my own
(12:46):
personal experiences didn't feellike they made sense with what
we were learning.
And funny enough, you know,looking back and then talking
about it with other people in mycohort, women of color felt the
same way and yet none of uswere talking about that.
We have like very, very muchvalidated this unlearning that
has to happen Because you knowif you're brown, if you're black
(13:10):
, if you're from immigrantfamilies, you're not going to be
learning about the psychologythat feels relevant to you from
the canon, from the uppercapital letter P.
You're not gonna be learningall the theories, all the things
that you're told, thelegitimate things, all the I'm
(13:31):
gonna put in quotes hereevidence-based practices, which
that's useful for certainpopulations, but when it's as
the standard, it loses thequestion of for whom.
And I think my own experience offeeling like something doesn't
fit.
I'm learning this, I'm gettinggood at it.
Why doesn't it make sense formy own life?
How come I'm not having a haasin my own personal experience?
(13:52):
I must, something must be wrongwith me, I must be doing it
wrong, I must be whatever it isfill in the blank for something
negative.
That's what I was doing.
I was doing that internalizedhatred and shame.
That happens, and, I think,only when I've kind of realized,
oh, what you were learningwasn't relevant to you because
it wasn't built for you, andallowed myself and gave myself
(14:13):
permission to begin buildingthat with the other voices that
are building these parallel,just as important psychologies
for non-white populations.
I think that's when it feelslike psychology got really
interesting to me, rather thananother tool for self-hatred,
self-confusion or internalizingan unworthiness.
Christina McKelvy (14:34):
Internalizing an unworthiness.
That's how that shame showed up.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (14:39):
Yeah , yeah, something must be wrong
with me.
Christina McKelvy (14:43):
Something must be wrong with my family.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (14:46):
I've got to change.
And then you try and fit themold.
That is not built for you andyou don't fit it.
And then there's even more shamebecause it feels like you're
failing, you're not trying hardenough, and so I think that
there was a lot of that going on.
Personally, I was getting allthese degrees, doing really well
, and my personal relationshipswere suffering.
I wasn't able to really makesense of myself and I hid those
(15:10):
things.
I felt like I was going throughthings in such an alienated and
isolated way, even though, likeI said, talking to other women
of color from graduate programs,even if they weren't from mine,
many, many, many of them feelthis way.
So I wasn't alone, but I feltalone, and I think that's what I
do right now is so importantbecause, if nothing else, I'm
(15:31):
putting out there that you'renot alone, and if one daughter
of immigrant can hear this andsay, oh my goodness, I felt like
that, whether it was inbusiness school, whether it was
in this school, I felt likesomething about my own personal
experience didn't map onto whatwas being taught as the standard
, and if they can bypass theyears of shame and internalize
(15:52):
unworthiness and just go to oh Iwonder if that's because these
are from Western norms thataren't mapped onto me.
Let me look at what exists forcollectivistic cultures and let
me see why I do struggle in theworkplace, Like if they can ask
that question rather than goinginto chain spiral.
I mean, I think I can feel likemy work has been done.
Christina McKelvy (16:12):
It's a full circle for you.
Yeah, yeah, Tell me a littlebit how you know what your work
looks like.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (16:19):
I've got so many different hats that
I wear.
One of the biggest hats is mama.
So I've got two young, almostthree year old.
He'll be three here in a coupleof weeks and it ain't month old
.
And so that is, you know, oneof my.
It's the hardest work and it'sthe deepest work, and I think
that the more and more I'm inthe world of psychology and part
(16:42):
of the decolonizing therapymovement, I'm realizing that who
you are as a person reallymatters.
And you know, they always saythe personal is political and it
is.
The personal is professional,in the sense that there is no
real bifurcation.
Yes, my daughter isn't with mewhen I'm doing therapy, but she
is with me in the way that Ithink, in the way that she's
transformed me and the way thatmy children impact me, in the
(17:03):
way that I think about my ownupbringing, the way I support
other parents, and so I start myday with them, I end my day
with them, and so I have kind ofchanged up my schedule to be
really able to be present withthem.
In the mornings, the middle ofthe day I'm with clients and
I'll tell you a little bit aboutthe multiple ways that I work
with clients and then atnighttime I'm out of here in
(17:25):
time to do daycare, pick up, tobe home, to do the whole dinner
bathing kind of nighttimeroutine and that's really
important for me.
I think that quite I had kids,I was working a lot more and you
know I was able to like work athome and do all of that and I'm
more flexible.
Sometimes they go down and I'mstill working on something,
especially in different seasonswhere you know there is more to
(17:47):
do, but I really try and beavailable and present and
because I own my own grouppractice and everything that I
do is really I have a lot of sayand agency in it.
I'm conscious of how I don'teven believe in work-life
balance, but I think that youknow I work and I am a parent
(18:07):
and so they're defensive ofbeing really present and
available to them.
So my kids are a large part ofkind of my everyday and
definitely on the weekends.
And then I work with clients ina number of different ways.
I have the group practice, basedin Santa Barbara, providing
therapy services individual,couples, group and family with
(18:27):
my two associates all overCalifornia as well, as I'm
licensed in New York and I'vegot a handful of New York
clients as well.
So we do therapy both in-personas well as telehealth and my
practice is like you know, I'dsay two thirds individuals and a
third couples love, loveworking with couples.
(18:48):
And then I also work in thiskind of more non-therapy, but
still focused on healing andpsychopsychoeducation.
I also have programs that areone-to-one as well as a group
program and that is open towomen globally.
So through that program I getto work with lots of women from
(19:09):
lots of different places, whichis always so cool that you can
be in a different continent andhave a completely different
ethnicity and a completelydifferent immigration story and
still have some of the universalthings that I teach and guide
through the programs, make senseand land.
It's like, oh, this is trulyuniversal, even if you didn't
immigrate from Iran to America.
(19:30):
So it feels really amazing thatI'm able to do that.
And then, you know, thrown intothe little pockets of the day
where I'm in with clients,either through my programs or
through my therapy, I've got abunch of social media stuff that
I do, whether it's a podcast,whether it's running my own
Instagram page and putting outreels and doing fun things or
(19:51):
sharing bits and pieces Usuallymy musings as I'm walking to and
from you know, and just sharingthose little bits of those ahas
that come to me as I am stilldiscovering all the ways in
which being a child ofimmigrants impacts your life,
and so I really share thatpersonal piece.
I'm not just a professional.
(20:12):
I think even just the way thatwe set up professionals is very
much based in the Western modelblank slate, don't tell them
anything, not just honoring thefull humanity.
Like you said, it's like notone size fits all.
You have to really think aboutthe individual in front of you.
I also have turned that lens inon myself.
I'm not just a professional.
I am the professional I am,which includes my own life
(20:35):
experience, which includes myown struggles, and, of course,
I'm not sharing beyond what youknow, what would take over from
clients or something that I'mworking through.
I respect what feels right forme in terms of sharing and I
only share what I'm comfortablesharing or I've gotten to a
place where I can open up aboutit.
But I absolutely feel like mysocial media is a part of
(20:58):
putting out there that you knowyou're not some blank slate
professional.
Being you and honoring thefullness of your humanity is
just as important as what wegive to clients, and I try and
practice what I preach in that.
Christina McKelvy (21:15):
And self-disclosure was always, when
I was in school, when we werein school taboo.
You don't want to self-disclose, you want to be blank slate and
I like you.
I haven't found that to behelpful.
You know clients appreciatewhen we're human.
God forbid.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (21:29):
Yeah , yeah, and I think that you
know part of that also.
It's almost like this is themetaphor that I sometimes use
for it it's almost like colorblindness and just saying like I
don't see color, everybody isthe same.
It's kind of like saying I'mnot a real person, I'm just a
professional.
And I think what that does isit actually erases bias, your
(21:53):
actual lived experience and whatyou will or will not be able to
relate to potentially, becauseif you haven't experienced it or
maybe you haven't worked withit professionally, then maybe
you're not the right fit.
I think part of this you're ablank slate actually excuses
biases.
It excuses, you know, the factthat there is a history of the
(22:15):
field of psychology not doingright in marginal, with
marginalized populations, likeeven I like to think like even
50, 60 years ago the DSM hadhomosexuality as a diagnosis,
right, right, so we're not 300years away from it, but within
the last 100 years that was amental disease, that was an
(22:41):
illness that you could bediagnosed with rather than like
just a natural part of youridentity.
And so I think that when we saythis blank slate piece, I'm just
professional and I'm totallyequipped to work with you we
really you race that there aresubtle ways in which racism,
misogyny, all sorts of isms getget into the field of psychology
(23:03):
and we erase the history of howthe field of psychology has not
always worked well with, andstill isn't working well with,
marginalized populations,disenfranchising them,
pathologizing them, judging them, not serving them well.
And so I think part of themovement to decolonize therapy
is also a greater accountabilityis like, if I know who you are
as a person and how you live,what your values are, how you're
(23:26):
working on your biases, whetheryou've had professional
training and working with peoplelike me, that's going to
actually allow me to have alittle bit more safety as a
person of color.
And so you come in, andespecially because coming in
means I'm taking a huge act ofmaking a huge step of courage,
because your field has hurt megreatly and said a lot of
(23:49):
negative things about me greatlyand historically hasn't served
me.
And you showing up as a person,you having your identity be a
part of the conversation, isactually part of safety,
accountability building andtaking responsibility for the
history of our fields.
So I actually think it's notjust like nice.
I think it's actually essentialfor moving forward that we
(24:10):
begin to position the therapistas a human.
That's actually increasingaccountability, making us look
at the past, making us look atthe history and making us have
to call out whether we are orare not, are not equipped to
work with people Like I say.
I am not equipped Like I'llgive an example, I am not to
(24:31):
work with substance abuse.
I'm not.
I grew up in a family that wasreally religious.
I haven't had my ownexperiences.
I don't really know a lot ofpeople that have their amazing
clinicians out there, where thisis what they know.
Maybe they've lived in it,maybe they're in recovery, maybe
they've supported peoplethrough recovery.
Maybe this is part of theirpain points for their family.
That's not me, and so I knowthat I even if I could probably
(24:55):
provide some space for it learnabout it a little bit.
I wouldn't be the absolute yesto that, and I like to take on
clients that are my absolute yes, because that's when I'm going
to serve them best and that'swhere I'm going to feel like I'm
operating in the place where Iam optimized and this is like in
line with and in flow with whatI consider my strengths and
(25:17):
talents, and so it's one ofthose things where I have no
shame in saying, oh, that's not,that's not my absolute yes, and
so I refer out If someone camein.
I just had someone just a coupleof days ago in and out of
recovery and I support aroundhim and his wife.
I'm like I've got a few reallygreat referrals to you.
That wouldn't be me, and Ithink that if you're this blank
slate, it's almost like again,you are the all knowing, you've
(25:43):
got no biases, you can work withanybody, and it's like on are
those days.
I think we're working withpeople that are so much more
informed, and culture is a partof that conversation.
What do you think about thispolitically?
Have you worked with peoplethat look like me?
What are your own experienceswith blah, blah blah?
Those are questions that arecoming up on my intake and I'm
so here for that because, again,it's not just important for the
(26:06):
client's safety, it's importantfor the therapist's
accountability and owning.
What is for?
Yes, what are the clients andthe populations you are equipped
to work with and what are theones that you're not?
And either you go and you gettraining and you work with it,
or you just say that's not forme and you refer out, and that I
think needs to happen for thefield to be accountable and
(26:29):
responsible as well.
Christina McKelvy (26:31):
Sounds like when you are telling your
clients like I, really Iunderstand you're increasing
that to met with your clientsand they can set safety.
Pauline Yeghnazar Pe (26:39):
Absolutely , and I think you can do it in a
way that is not all about you,I think you can do it in a way
that and that's the thing withgrad school like you were saying
, self-disposure is taboo.
I think so many of the thingsthat I learned in grad school
and now realizing they're partof white supremacy culture
things like black and whitethinking or having an expert on
(27:00):
something, having a yes or no,it's either allowed or it's not
allowed Whereas I think part ofmoving away from that is
recognizing the grade,recognizing that it depends,
recognizing when would it behelpful, when would it not be
helpful.
It's much messier, but it's somuch more applicable to life.
So is there a place where youtalk about your own struggles,
(27:22):
especially ones that you'restill working through?
Absolutely not.
That wouldn't be useful to theclient in front of you.
Is it useful for me, assomebody who's struggling and
feeling like they're the onlyone that I tell them look,
you're in your 20s, you'refiguring out your identity
development.
You're figuring.
You know your parents arefiguring out how to treat you
differently.
You're not really seen as afull fledged adult in your
(27:44):
culture.
I've been there, I know I hadmy own flight and I know we've
got a lot of differences.
What are the hardest parts foryou?
Something like that as aself-disclosure that says this
happens to us, and again, you'dhave to be in the us, have
self-disclosed that you also area child of immigrants to then
begin that conversation.
(28:04):
And so I think that there is away to do self-disclosure in a
way that is useful, increasingthat attunement, helping people
feel less alone, while still,you know it, honoring and
acknowledging that we've gotvery critical differences.
I say Middle Eastern, that's ahuge population, so many
different ethnicities, so manydifferent nationalities, so many
(28:26):
different religions.
So I can only speak to myexperience.
And yet I think that when welearn this, like, yes, you do
this, no, you don't do that,you're really missing all of the
gray.
And you're missing most timesin those very black and white
ways of thinking.
You're missing people thatdon't look like that white norm
(28:47):
and come into therapy for thisvery particular kind of therapy.
And so I really, yeah, I reallyappreciate where things are
going now with people saying no,I learned that as a rule.
And for whom, for whom is thata rule?
And let's ask when would thisbe useful?
For what populations?
And those are the questionsthat I'm really loving.
That literally gives me hopeabout where we're headed.
Christina McKelvy (29:11):
It gives you hope.
Yeah.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, M (29:17):
I mean for humans.
I think in general we heal incommunity.
We're social beings, we'redesigned for that and yet
anytime we feel that we'redifferent, it's always that
we're bad, we're worse than.
And there can be such shame inthat, especially in shame-based
cultures like collectivisticcultures, where you kind of
separate from the herd whenyou're not up to whatever it is,
(29:40):
because you don't want to harmyour reputation.
You want to save face, and so Ithink that part of not just
decolonizing therapy butreducing the stigma for mental
health is putting some of thesethings out there and allowing us
to come back together in acommunity where the greatest
amount of healing happens.
(30:00):
I definitely did my healingbehind closed doors, by myself,
alienated, and it's longer andit's harder, and I'm just so
happy that people are able tohave a sense of community,
whether it's physical communityor whether it's an online
community, social media.
I think, whatever the perils,it's a tool and it can be
(30:21):
amazing for creating thatcommunity for the children of
immigrants, and I see the waysin which healing is accelerated
when we allow ourselves to be apart of these groups and speak
about our collective experiences, even while, like I said,
honoring the individual thingsthat might be very unique to you
(30:43):
.
So I'm really excited to bejust kind of a small voice in
the many voices that are saying,yeah, this makes sense for me
and I want to provide this andjoining arms with other sisters,
other daughters of immigrantsto do this work.
We don't have to do it alone.
Which, again, is very white andRemembrancey culture is like
(31:03):
you have to build it.
You have to build it alone.
It's only you.
It's competition rather thanits collaboration, its community
, it's healing, it's liftingeach other up.
That's what collectivisticculture the positives, that's
what they offer is us together,us in this healthy kind of
dependence on one another.
Christina McKelvy (31:27):
I'm sitting with that for a moment.
It's been a theme probablyevery podcast episode I've been
recording and I think I say thisin every episode as well.
But it's been a theme thatcommunity is so important and
uniting together, moving forward.
And when I ask people, you know, what gave them resilience,
(31:51):
what brings them hope, how dothey heal?
I very rarely have a hurtingone to say well, I did it all on
my own, pulled up my bootstraps.
Have you had to hear that?
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (32:02):
Yeah , yeah, we need each other.
And we need people who canparticularly relate to certain
experiences.
You know I have a free bookclub that I run called Cultured,
and it's all things mentalhealth, identity for the
children of immigrants.
And you know we read a fewmonths back every month.
(32:22):
The pick that we have gives meso much.
But a few months back we readthe Good Immigrant 26 stories of
different immigrants abouttheir experiences and again, so
many differences between me andevery single writer that the
resonance was there.
I think finding the rightcommunity is important because
if you're going to an all whitegroup, whatever the topic, let's
(32:46):
say you're recovering fromwhatever it is right.
It's a group for support for thesurvivors of sexual abuse.
If there's no mention ofculture and you're culturally
different than everybody elseeverybody else is white, you're
from a brown family there'sgoing to be certain parts of it
that are not going to be asuseful.
Like in Farsi, there's thisphrase called mi chaspid, and mi
(33:10):
chaspid like I guess the youngpeople today would say, like it
hits you know, Okay, like it'stechnically translated, it
sticks, mi chaspid.
It sticks and it fixed meanslike it's hitting the spot, so
you can be fed, fed communitypeople, great.
(33:30):
Or you can have it likebedchasp.
It can be that level of it hits, because the experiences that
you're reading in that book,talking about in one of the
group programs, talking aboutwith me and individual therapy,
you know these feel like theyare speaking to the nuances of
your particular experience,things that you maybe never even
(33:53):
thought somebody else couldrelate to.
I'll give a personal experience.
Just a few weeks back on Friday, on my social media page, I
always I put out Friday favoriterits which are just like things
from the week that made me cry,laugh, think it's like across
the board, just things that Isaved and I put them out there.
And there was one from, I think,the account Persian, and it was
(34:17):
like you know, shout out toanybody else whose parent made
them do this and it was somebodywalking on their parents' backs
.
So the parent flat on theground, like face down on the
ground, and the kid like walkingon the parents' back to crack
their back and it just like Ialmost dropped my phone.
My mom would do that would belike come walk on my back and it
was something that I literallythought nobody else would do and
(34:40):
, honestly, like I've never eventalked about it.
I never mentioned to a friendand there was probably some part
of it that the word that alwayscomes up is like it was weird.
It was weird.
I never talked about it becauseit was this weird thing my mom
wanted.
And here it is.
As a 39 year old, I'm seeingthis on the page for Persian and
the other thing that I follow,saying like shout out to the
(35:01):
night.
Put on my page.
Who else can relate?
That's the mother.
Women were like me too.
I had them do that too.
It's like those are the kindsof moments I am still having as
an almost 40 year old womanwho's been here since she was
four.
So, you know, if that happens tome, I'm not going to get that
from another page.
(35:22):
That's a Euro.
You know?
European American persontalking about their family
experience.
Like they're going to have theirown thing.
I'm not putting that down.
They're going to have their ownthing.
But there's something differentwhen me, chaspé, and it just
hits you differently.
It makes sense to you, it'scompletely tailored to you.
That's what I mean by it isdesigned for you.
(35:44):
Those are, I think, the mosthealing moments, where it's not
just a person, because sometimeswe can feel lonely even when
we're not alone.
You can be in quote unquotecommunity, aka around other
people, but if they're notresonating with some of the
depths of your experience, it'snot a everything has to line up.
(36:06):
That doesn't even happen in amarriage, you know, it doesn't
happen with your own siblingsthat grew up in the same
household as you.
But if there aren't thosecritical, nuanced, subtle, deep
connecting points, it's notgoing to be very healing.
You might actually feel evenmore alienated, even though
you're in a group of peopletrying to heal and that's why it
is so important that we havethese collective spaces for
(36:29):
BIPOC folk and then breakingthat down into even further
identifications.
So that people feel like theirparticular experiences are
really, really seen andvalidated.
That's the kind of healing, thedepth of healing that I think
has been missing from this.
Like we all need people to heal, like, yes, what kinds of
(36:50):
people and what is the mechanismof healing.
It's like when you are deeply,deeply seen and the parts of you
you thought weird, yourecognize are just cultural
differences from the norms andthe standards that you saw I do.
That's when the healing happensand you realize it's just
different.
It's not worse than, less than,and then there's less shame.
(37:13):
There's less shame and lessonshame is part of it Because,
look, I was in communities,gradual communities, doing.
I felt so much shame.
I kept feeling like myexperience was that weird
experience and I wasn't talkingabout it, because that's what
happens with shame.
And then, all of a sudden, itwas through.
I like to say it was throughthe daughters of immigrants
coming to therapy and telling methe things they were ashamed
(37:36):
about.
That I was like I mean too, andI wasn't saying it to them.
I was not saying it to thembecause I was having my own aha
moment as I was doing therapyfor them.
I was like, oh, my God, that'sexactly my.
So those things I think thatbecoming a psychologist, even
the process of becoming apsychologist, is really what
saved me, because I got to hearpeople's secrets, the things
(37:59):
they thought weird, the thingsthey were ashamed about, and
then realizing that's what I'mholding shame about.
I've taken those things and I ambroadcasting them, as these are
just cultural differences, andthis is because what we see
modeled even in mental health,it's not built for you.
So there's nothing wrong withyou.
You're just culturallydifferent.
(38:19):
So you need different theories,you need different ways of
thinking about your family.
I've got a course on settingboundaries with your immigrant
parents, because it is a wholedifferent ball game than just
walking up to your mom andsaying I have asked you to
respect my boundaries, pleasedon't talk to me like that.
It's like no, that's not goingto fly.
Or you're not going to say thatto grandma and 78 cultural
(38:40):
norms.
You're not going to do thatbecause that would be harmful to
you, that's not an effectiveway of doing it.
So everything that I got tohear in this sacred, sacred
space of therapy, I realized Ihad those internal things that I
was holding so shamefully onto.
And in letting go of that shameand creating a space where we
(39:01):
can talk about those things.
That's where my own healing hascontinued and that's where I am
hopefully part of catalyzingand accelerating the healing for
other people.
Christina McKelvy (39:14):
You didn't start off by saying I'm going to
start healing others, I'm goingto be a psychologist.
But now, here you are.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, M (39:21):
I am.
It's like I almost feel like Ididn't try to run from destiny.
But what I truly believe inwhat's meant for you is meant
for you and if you continuebeing honest with yourself, you
continue checking in withyourself.
It's like full circle, kind of.
At the end of this is likeagain chasing, listening into,
(39:43):
tuning into, following thatself-inquiry, that deep
connection to self, thequestions that you keep asking
and trying to answer them.
It's not answering that thatgives you all the answers,
because answering them justhopefully is going to bring up
new questions.
It's following the questionsthat are being asked why doesn't
this fit?
Following the pain points foryou, what's happening here?
(40:07):
The more we can be curious inour own lives, we will map out
onto where we're meant to be.
I didn't have to, and I saythat to people who are like
where am I meant to be?
Where am I supposed to go?
What's the right career choice?
It's like I don't know.
But let's start with developingthat voice of introspection,
because if you keep askingyourself, I promise you you will
(40:28):
end up where you are meant tobe and it's not a destination,
by the way where you're meant tobe.
And end up is just the startingpoint for continuing to go, go,
go, go.
Life is continuous evolution,but if you keep asking yourself,
you're going to end up doingthe work that will be most
healing to self and other.
(40:48):
The ultimate thing is that eventhough we're so different,
we're also deeply the same.
So through difference we get tosameness and through
self-pealing I get to helpingand supporting others.
It's like it's all one in thesame and that's, I think,
finally where I feel like I amin my career, in my life.
Oh my gosh, I'm speaking like amiddle-aged person, and I guess
(41:12):
I am.
I'm like in my middle age, 35to 55.
Christina McKelvy (41:15):
I just found out the other day is middle-aged
, so here we are.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, (41:19):
Oh , here we are.
But I'm feeling that I'm like,oh, I'm surrendering to that.
I don't have to have all thequestions.
I think I just have to becurious about and committed to
finding the answers for myself,and that will lead me to where I
am meant to be.
That's part of destiny.
Christina McKelvy (41:37):
Now, that's part of destiny.
You had so many really goodtidbits that I just like in our
differences we find sameness andreally just following the
questions, I love that.
Pauline, my podcast is calledHopology and we are getting to
(41:58):
time.
I would like to ask this toeverybody that I interview, and
you have answered a little bitof the question earlier but what
gives you?
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA (42:07):
hope .
What gives me hope is thismoment we're in where the field
of mental health is changing.
It's honoring the full humanityof the client at the same time
as we're allowing and invitingin the full humanity of the
therapist.
And in that we are realizingthat all personal healing is
(42:31):
collective healing, regardlessof which side of I say the
metaphorical couch, because noweven telehealth is changing how
we do therapy.
But I think it's the honoringof humanity both ways For the
person getting therapy andasking how are we serving your
particular identities and yourparticular struggles, as well as
(42:52):
allowing the fullness of thetherapist to be in the room and
not to be shameful, unethical orunprofessional, but actually
essential to the work of helpingsomebody else heal.
And I think it is so healing tothe client as well as healing
(43:12):
to the therapist.
And there's that collectivehealing that I think is sparking
something very, very new,because I think that the root of
so much trauma and mentalillness is deep, deep loneliness
.
And we are not just lonely whenwe're not in community with
others.
We are lonely when parts ofourselves are not validated and
(43:35):
supported.
So when we are disconnected,when I am not supposed to be
this Pauline the Pauline hasthoughts, that has experiences,
that's had pain when I have todisconnect and disown parts of
myself, that's an existentialloneliness that breeds shame,
that breeds dis-ease, and Ithink we're in.
(43:59):
What gives me hope is we're inthis moment of huge potential
that I'm already seeing but thathas not been fully realized of
bringing back those disownedparts and allowing for our
fullness of our humanity to leadto that collective healing that
we are so, so incrediblydesperate for and in need of.
(44:22):
So that's what gives me thehope every day, and if I could
be one small voice doing it andspeaking into it and creating
spaces for others to jump intothis, that will have been a life
well lived.
Christina McKelvy (44:39):
Yes, well, thank you for being a part of
this movement, this realizationof what therapy really needs to
be moving forward, and thank youso much for being here.
Really appreciated thisconversation and you are so
welcome.
Can I throw in one other thing?
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, (44:56):
Of course, another piece of it
that I will add is we are notjust healing ourselves.
We are healing the jet.
We are healing ourselves, weare healing the generations past
so that we can pass on healingto generations future.
Christina McKelvy (45:15):
We are healing the generations past so
we can pass on healing to thegenerations future.
Pauline Yeghnazar Pe (45:20):
Absolutely , because all the work I do
around intergenerational trauma.
We hold generations of traumain ourselves, so our personal
healing is not just collectivehealing, it's also historical
healing.
It is historical healingbecause historical healing or
historical trauma lives in youtoday.
So healing yourself iscollective healing because it
(45:44):
connects you, but it's alsohealing the past and allowing
for a healing for the future.
And that gives me hope, notjust as a therapist but as a
mother.
So it's just multiple layers ofhealing that are occurring.
Is the work that I'm doingwithin myself is allowing the
healing that my mother, mygrandmother and my great
grandmother didn't do and theancestors in my line from the
(46:06):
Armenians who were experiencedgenocide?
Christina McKelvy (46:08):
and so many different atrocities.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, (46:10):
That's all passed down and to know
that that's gonna change andthat my daughter, my son and
their children and theirgrandchildren they're not gonna
experience that, that reallygives me hope.
So it's not just a selfishwe're having this moment now,
it's the look at what thepotential is for this generation
(46:30):
of people, and I think not justage-wise, but people like you
said.
With this realization, lookwhat is possible for the future.
Christina McKelvy (46:40):
How it changes the future.
Well, thank you so much forthat and again, I appreciate you
being here.
Pauline Yeghnazar Peck, MA, (46:46):
So thank you so much, thank you
for having me and letting mejust pour out my heart here.
Thanks a lot.
Christina McKelvy (46:53):
You're very welcome, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.