September 26, 2023 • 47 mins
Fear and anxiety, are two emotions often associated with the dark side of parenting, specifically motherhood, which become the catalyst for an enlightening conversation in our latest episode.
We're thrilled to welcome Yael Goldstein-Love, acclaimed author of the suspense-packed novel, The Possibilities, a discussion that promises an exploration into the heart of motherhood, where resilience and hope shine brighter amidst the shadows of fear.
Join us as we journey through Yael's experiences of motherhood that inspired her thrilling tale and examine the liberating power of navigating parenthood through the lens of fear and anxiety. In our chat, we dissect the implications of these themes on parenting, exposing the profound insights they offer into our minds, interactions with our offspring, and stress management tactics. Yael ingeniously draws from her novel, shedding light on how her protagonist seamlessly balances these intense emotions and parentage. Together, we unravel the risks of despair and ponder on the prospects of transformation even in the most challenging circumstances.
We delve into the emotions that emerge when we, as parents, confront the uncertain futures of our children. Yael's book is a treasure trove for parents seeking to understand and embrace the depth of their emotions and discover the powerful message of resilience and hope.
TW: Infant loss/death
Information on where you can find us.
Follow us on Instagram: @hopeologypodcast and the host @writerchristinamckelvy
To support the show, go to: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeologypodcast
Disclaimer: The views reflected by any of the guests may not reflect the views of the podcast host. Some topics may be difficult for some viewers, so proceed at your own risk. This podcast does not replace psychotherapy or advice and is for entertainment purposes only.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina McKelvy (00:00):
Welcome to Hopology.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie.
Today we're going to bespeaking with Yael, who authored
the new thriller thePossibilities, which is about a
new mother who ventures intoparallel worlds to find her
missing child.
The question lingering what ifhe had a second chance?
In this interview, not only dowe talk about the inspiration
behind her book, such as herresearch, but we also talk about
(00:22):
her own experiences as a mother, in the hope that motherhood
brings.
We'll be right back.
Welcome to Hopology.
(01:14):
Stories of hope, healing andresilience.
I'm Christina McKelvie.
Today we have Yael GoldsteinLove.
She is the author of the newbook the Possibilities.
Welcome, how are you?
Yael Goldstein- Love (01:24):
doing.
I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for having me.
This is such a pleasure.
Christina McKelvy (01:29):
Well, thank you.
So you know I was reading yourbook and it's a very interesting
book, and you know my podcastfocuses on a lot of hope,
healing and resilience and I candefinitely see those themes
tied in to the book.
It's fiction, but tell me alittle bit about you, know how
you came to the idea of thestory and you know we'll start
(01:51):
there.
Yael Goldstein- Love (01:52):
Yeah, sure , so it's.
You know.
So the book, it's funny.
I just a reader, I justdescribed the book as everything
everywhere all at once meetswhat to expect when you're
expecting.
And I'm like I didn't just, ohGod, like I, and this is like a
per, I don't even know this per,you know, like I wish that I
had known you and you had like,like, now I know how to describe
(02:13):
this book very quickly.
It's everything everywhere allat once meets, what's to expect
when you're expecting, and it's,you know, it's really a story.
It is a sort of speculativethriller about the anxiety of,
of, of parenthood, the sort oflike the uncertainty.
You know, how do we reconcileourselves to the immense
uncertainty of a child's futurewhen we're, you know, we're so
(02:34):
invested in this child's futureand and so it is.
Really it is a book about.
You know, how do you fosterhope?
How do you or at least like,how do you not let hope totally
collapse into despair and fear?
You know, how do you sort ofkeep the uncertainty alive?
And I really came, you know, Icame to this book.
(02:55):
I was just like I came to thisbook, very honestly, like, but I
feel like, anyway, you come toa book is very honestly right by
that is you know I.
This was my struggle when I hada child, so I my son.
The book begins with a veryfraught birth scene where this
child it's not clear if thechild's going to live or die.
(03:16):
That was my son's birth, sothat that scene is just that is
my son's birth.
That was just me writing myson's birth, so even the scene
where she notices the armdangling except for the arm
dangling, the there's.
That's the only part that'sdifferent.
But the, like you know the, the, the sort of silence greeting.
Like you know, she here, thischild is out, but there's
(03:37):
nothing but silence and the roomis filling with more people and
I asked, and I kept asking, aspeople would run.
You know, is he okay?
Is there any chance he's goingto be okay?
And nobody would answer.
This went on for about an hourand finally someone said there's
a chance.
And I was like, oh, that's theworst answer you could have
possibly get.
That's the response was there'sa chance.
(03:58):
There's a chance he might live.
Yeah, oh, my goodness, I can'teven imagine, yeah, so I I mean.
So that was like an hour that Iwas like in the recovery room,
like having no idea if I was inthe midst of a tragedy, and so
then he was fine.
He turned out to be fine becauseI had because he had enough of
a reserve of oxygen in his cordblood to get him through the 10
(04:18):
minutes unharmed, and and thatwas only because I had incest
insisted on a C section.
I think I might be the onlymother in the history of the
town of Berkeley, california, tohave ever insisted on an
emergency C section, like wewere like the most like anti C
section city in the world,probably.
But but I insisted on a Csection because things are sort
of going wrong and that was whyhe was okay.
(04:39):
And so this like this left mein this state when I got him
home and everything was finewhere I was, just like I am
terrified all the time, and so Icouldn't, I didn't have any
hope in me for him.
It was like I really felt asthough the reality of which he
had died it seemed like he haddied had come too close to
occurring and now he was somehowdoomed, and so everything in
(05:02):
the world like every.
Everything I interpreted inthat light.
I mean, I should also say he wasborn like this was January of
2017.
It's like Trump had just beenelected.
The world was just sort of likefeeling dark and I think, like
his, like almost death, um feltto me like oh yes, of course, of
(05:22):
course, like there's no hope.
This child is doomed.
I never should have had himBecause, like the world is
falling to pieces and so itbecame very easy to go into this
place of despair around theuncertainty of his future, and I
really had to learn how to sortof surrender myself to that
uncertainty in a way that Icould still feel like rich and
(05:44):
alive and engaged with life andengaged with him, and, and, and,
and, so that he could feel hopeand excitement for the future.
You know, and that's where thebook came from.
Christina McKelvy (05:56):
Well, tell me a little bit more about what
that looks like, surrenderingyourself to that uncertainty.
Yael Goldstein- Love (06:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's so hard, in a
way, to say it in words, likeyou know, like by the end I
don't you know if you, if you'vegone to the end of the book,
that's sort of what happens atthe end is you sort of like
figures out how to surrenderherself.
You know, in her particularcase, in this particular
relationship with thisparticular child, and I do think
in some sense it has to be likeit can only be done in a way
(06:22):
that you can do, you know,because I think for all of us,
uncertainty is not, is notcomfortable for any human being.
We are not, we are not aspecies that likes uncertainty,
but for each of us it manifestsin a slightly different way.
You know, like what is it?
You know, what is it about?
Uncertainty that like reallygets onto our skin, like what is
it?
That's very difficult for us,given our personality structure,
(06:44):
given our history.
What are the things that gothrough our head when we're,
like you know, trying tocollapse on certainty and to
despair?
What are the things that we do?
And so I think for each of usit's so distinct.
I think that one thing that Ihave really found for myself,
and then also my dissertationresearch was also was on the
(07:04):
sort of the same topic of howmothers experience, experience
the uncertain futures of theirkids.
So I spoke into a lot of peopleabout this, a lot of mothers
about this, and one theme that Ihave really found in common
among the many, many that arenot in common and are unique is
and actually maybe this is twodifferent things you tell me,
(07:25):
but one is making friends withthat uncertainty.
Do you know what I mean?
Just like I think that makingfriends, yeah, like when, or
just sort of like allowing it,allowing that there's no way out
of it.
Because so one thing that Ireally that was really
interesting to me in mydissertation research was that I
(07:46):
found, like these are alleveryone was responding to this
call that I put out, saying like, do you know, is anyone a
mother?
Do you feel uncertainty aboutyour children's future?
Do you want to talk today?
So it's like very broad, butlike, and I said like, do you
ever worry?
Do you ever worry about yourkids' uncertain future?
But like you know, if you'regoing to respond, you worry
about your kids' uncertainfuture.
(08:06):
And people fell into two campswhen they would, when we would
start the interview, half ofthem would be like I'm a
complete anxious mess, like I'ma disaster, and let me tell you
all about it and those and hereare all my anxieties and here
are the things I think about it.
And it was so interestingbecause those mothers, they were
not a mess at all, they werevery aware of their anxiety but
because they were so aware of itand didn't try to avoid it,
(08:28):
they had done so much thoughtand working through about it.
They had all these thoughtsabout the meaning of it, the
intergenerational meaning, themeaning with their own
personalities, the meaning withtheir own history, what it might
mean about their relationshipwith their children.
They were using that anxiety insuch interesting ways and they
were filled with.
They were filled with a lot offear, as is normal as a parent,
(08:50):
and they were filled with atremendous amount of hope and
meaning.
And they would say these things.
Like you know, very commontheme among this group was they
would say things like you know,I feel like I feel so much more
alive to like every nuance oflike, the seasons of like, of
like you know, when a tomato isfresh, like everything that
(09:13):
could be ripped away at amoment's notice because it can
be ripped away.
Because of that uncertainty.
I feel such richness andaliveness from that, like that
was such a common theme Oneparticipant spoke about like
filling the abundance of theworld war.
And then in the other group itwas this other group also very
introspective, wonderful,thoughtful mothers.
(09:33):
But they came in saying, youknow, I don't really know why I
responded to this because I'mnot that worried actually, like
I thought about it and it's likeyou know, I have all these tips
and tools for controlling myworry and like they really quite
work and like I'm not thatworried.
And those mothers, they weresuffering more.
Actually they were actuallylike they weren't aware of their
(09:56):
suffering as much.
They sort of were keeping itout of their awareness, but they
were suffering more from theuncertainty.
And this came out in a bunch ofdifferent ways.
I mean, one was in reallydisturbing imagery and themes
would sort of pop up in theirinterviews, Like as they were
talking about their kids intheir future.
And so it's like you know, andthey'd be like well, I don't
know why I think about this likeextremely disturbing thing.
I just you know, it just oftencomes up in my thoughts Like,
(10:18):
well, that's interesting, youknow.
And then also these thoughts oflike escape, like these
fantasies of escape to some,like safe haven where they could
keep their kids safe and therewould be hope in that safe haven
.
And that only came up in thatgroup and so, you know, so I
feel like for me that made methat sort of reinforced this
notion that I felt in myself aswell, but I think maybe I'd
(10:40):
never articulated it quite thatway.
Which is the part of thesurrender is just acknowledging
to ourselves like this is scary,like loving someone this much,
loving someone in thisprotective way that a parent
loves a child, where, likeeverything in your psychology
and your biology, is sort oflike giving you this primal urge
(11:03):
to protect this vulnerablebeing and you can't you know you
can't, because you are humanand life is uncertain Just sort
of looking at that head on andfiguring out how to live with
that.
That is where, that is wherethe surrender happens and that
is where the actually the hopeand richness can live.
Christina McKelvy (11:24):
Because you are surrendering, like you said,
surrendering to thatuncertainty, surrendering to the
anxiety and that fear that thiscould happen.
But by doing that, like yousaid, there is the hope is
stronger, and whereas theindividuals that didn't
surrender they had these toolsdidn't come out in other ways
too.
You said it came out in allsorts of ways.
Yael Goldstein- Love (11:44):
that fear yeah, it came, I mean the other
ways were sort of moreindividual, but I would say that
it just seemed like, eventhough they came in not saying
they're a mess, they really justseemed to be their suffering
was higher, like they were.
They were, it was just.
They were just clearly moreanxious day to day and they
didn't speak about that, meaningthat they found with their kids
(12:06):
Like there wasn't that flipside where they would talk about
like the richness that it hadlent their life, and that was
really interesting to me, likeit, just like they seemed more
pessimistic in how they talkedabout their kids' futures.
Christina McKelvy (12:18):
Actually, there's a book called my Friend
Fear.
I don't know if you've heard ofit, oh.
Yael Goldstein- Love (12:25):
Yeah.
Christina McKelvy (12:26):
It's by Marie-Lee Patel and it's it's
basically very similar with, youknow, making friends with your
anxiety, surrendering to it, andI believe it's almost like a
different way of thinking,because we're usually told to
run away from that or it's notnormal or typical, and that must
be a hard conversation, likefrom especially mothers, you
(12:47):
know, to be told.
Yael Goldstein- Love (12:48):
Yeah, I think you're right, cause it's
like none of us we don't like it, like we want to run away from
anything as aversive as thatfeeling, and I think it is.
I think there that can be ahard conversation, but I think
it's also I mean, in myexperience it can also be a very
liberating conversation forparents, because there's
something you're you'reexpending so much energy, you
(13:12):
know, in trying to run away fromthat feeling that I think it
can feel really good to say likeoh, I don't have to expend that
energy, like I can actually bequote, unquote, normal, whatever
that means.
Christina McKelvy (13:24):
When parents are told or anyone is told like,
oh, don't surrender to fear, or, you know, don't lean into the
anxiety.
You should try and avoid it orfind ways to avoid it.
It can.
Actually, you mentioned it'slike freeing more, freeing for
those individuals.
Yael Goldstein- Love (13:40):
Yeah Right , it's like I mean, then we can
sort of move freely through allour feelings.
You know, you don't have toconstrain your feelings, and I
think that there is so muchvaluable information that we get
out of actually, you know,letting ourselves move into that
fear, move into any of thosethoughts I mean.
I mean, I think, for any humanbeing, in any scenario, but in
(14:00):
particular for parents, you know, I think we get information
about our own psyches fromknowing what we're, what we're
afraid of and what we're anxiousabout, and we get information
about our relationship with ourchildren and how that's going
and why we're worried about theparticular things we're worried
about.
And then, you know, I alsothink, like, in addition to this
(14:20):
this is a group that I didn'treally end up speaking to, but I
see a lot on social media and Isee a lot among my friends.
It's like people who, insteadof like trying to push away the
fear, try to push away the hope.
You know, and I think thatthat's Push away the hope, push
away the hope.
Do you know what I mean?
Like where it's like where yougo immediately and it's like
(14:42):
it's all despair, like there'snothing like to be a smart
person is to know that, likewe're doomed.
Do you know what I mean Like?
Do you know that too?
Where it's like I mean you know, and like always speaking as
though things are inevitablygetting worse and worse and
worse and there's no possibilityfor like change, there's no
possibility for hope, and Ithink that that, too, can become
(15:06):
a coping mechanism for ananxious parent, because it's
like it's hard, it's hard to youknow hope is uncertainty.
Christina McKelvy (15:14):
It's uncertainty, and people might
have a sense of disappointmentif things are not as they are.
Yael Goldstein- Love (15:21):
well, we're hoping for, let's say
Exactly, exactly, a sense ofdisappointment and a sense of
like.
There's almost like I meanthere's such a vulnerability in
hope.
You know Like, when you hope,like you are, like you're
wearing, you're wearing yourpossibility for hurt on your
(15:41):
sleeve wearing your possibilityfor her on your sleeve.
Christina McKelvy (15:47):
Oh, I love that.
That is so true.
It's there, like you saidvulnerability you're exposed,
you're exposed.
Yeah, yeah, how did that showup for Hannah, the main
character of the book?
Yael Goldstein- Love (16:02):
The wearing hope on her sleeve part,
or the which part that's true.
Christina McKelvy (16:07):
All of it.
No, I think you know how didshe?
I mean, I know, towards the endyou mentioned there's something
, so I don't want to give thataway but like, how does it show
up for her where she was?
Yeah, wearing hope on hersleeve, that vulnerability you
know as a new parent.
Yael Goldstein- Love (16:26):
Yeah, you know, I think for her it was
about wanting a child at all.
So, like this, you know hercharacter, is this character who
, because of her history ofbeing parented, because of her
history in the war, and you knowas being a person in the world
who could not count on anyone,she, she sort of describes
(16:49):
herself as holding to all thingslightly.
You know, like she just sort oflike she never wants to hold to
anything too tightly becauseshe wants to be okay when things
drift away, you know.
So it's like, you know she also, you know she marries this man,
even like to marry her husband.
It's like that feels like alittle too dangerous but she
like gets convinced of it andthen finally he convinces her to
like have a child.
(17:09):
And I think it's that act ofhaving a child where like, oh my
God, like I cannot hold lightlyto this.
There is no way to hold lightly, to like any outcomes once you
have a child, because you can nolonger, you can no longer
muster holding lightly, becauseyou care so much about that
child.
And I think that so much of thebook is about her reconciling
(17:32):
herself to that Like now Icannot hold lightly, now I will
be devastated by certainoutcomes and I am deeply
invested in certain otheroutcomes and that's her
psychological task inreconciling to motherhood, or
one of them.
Christina McKelvy (17:51):
And she's seen the psychologist because
her holding like it sounds likethere's like she's holding too
tightly and that's kind of likewhat's making the marriage a
little rocky.
Yeah, yeah, that's what youwere for.
Yael Goldstein- Love (18:09):
Yeah, oh, you know what I realized?
Like, actually, I think DrGoodman, the therapist in the
book, is a psychiatrist.
Christina McKelvy (18:13):
I just realized that Psychiatrist yeah
yeah, she prescribed hermedicine.
She prescribed her medicine.
I'm a therapist.
I know the difference.
Shame on me.
Yael Goldstein- Love (18:23):
No shame on me, I wrote it and I was like
, yes, yes, yes, psychiatrist.
I was like Jesus psychiatrist,yeah, I think you know she's
seeing.
She's seeing this psychiatristbecause she can't shake the
feeling.
I call it in the book the carsewer feeling, which is this
feeling that that I think I'vehad many times in my life not
(18:46):
just with my son's birth wherelike something comes too a bad
thing comes too close tohappening that you can't, you
don't feel like you can justlike shake it off and be like
that didn't happen.
There's this feeling of likethat came too close, like
somehow that in itself is adanger and like for me that I
call it the car sewer feeling,cause it's like if there's like
a near miss on the road, youknow, and then you're just like,
(19:06):
ah, you don't just like, youknow, you don't just drive away
and you're like, oh, it's allfine, you drive away and you're
like, shake it.
That terrible thing.
It's almost as though there'sthis other world where it
happened.
That feels like it's a littletoo close to this world.
And so in the book, her child'sbirth, where he almost dies, is
like leaving her with a versionof that feeling that she just
like cannot shake, and so she'sjust filled with anxiety and
(19:29):
doesn't know whether to itmanifests most in like never
knowing whether to trust herinstincts as a mother.
So it's like I feel likethere's this game that so many
mothers play maybe every motherof like, like forever.
It's like, is this my instinctsor is this my anxiety?
Like welcome to today's round,you know, and that is sort of
(19:49):
driving her a little baddie andit's getting in the way of her
relationship and that's whyshe's seeing this therapist.
And then at the start of thebook, like the world goes a
little baddie and it's not clearanymore whether she's the one
who's a little off or the worldis a little off.
Christina McKelvy (20:08):
It's very interesting to see the juxtapose
between at the beginning of thebook, especially the two
different worlds, because shehas one world where, you know,
her child survives and theirrelationship's rocky, but then
in the other world her childdoes not, but their relationship
, you know, at least seemsintact.
Yael Goldstein- Love (20:29):
Yeah, yeah , and in fact it's sort of
better than ever, because theysort of they, they, they, this.
You know this couple has notlearned yet how to love each
other through having a child,but they had.
They did actually navigate, youknow, a very perhaps a harder
thing loving each other throughlosing a child that they were
(20:52):
sort of able to do.
But but their coping strategiesfor actually dealing with the
uncertainty of having the child,as opposed to the despair of
losing the child, are more atodds and they have not figured
out yet.
Yeah, how do you go from atwo-some to a three-some?
How do you love each otherthrough that?
Christina McKelvy (21:07):
Yeah, and dad's response to the child in
the world where they have thechild.
He's not necessarily, you know,similar response to Hannah, but
there's like this aura ofperfect parenting that she
interprets, or you know, that hewants.
Yael Goldstein- Love (21:25):
Yes, yeah, Like this idea that there's a
right way to do everything.
And if you could, only you know.
I think, again, this is aboutlike uncertainty and hope and
and and despair, and sort ofthat balance between hope and
despair is like.
I think that a lot of parentsfall into this trap.
I mean, actually, I thinkHannah and and and Adam both
parents actually fall intoversions of this to something
(21:45):
like this idea that you canreduce uncertainty by, like, you
being so perfect.
If only you can be right, I mean, and I think this is how guilt
and uncertainty gets so entwinedin parenthood, you know.
And so like for Adam the father, he interprets this as like,
okay, like, if we just likefollow these schedules and these
rules and do everything, normal, normal, normal, normal, normal
(22:07):
, whatever that means, then wereduce uncertainty, Whereas for
Hannah, she has sort of this, adifferent approach which again,
I think is a very commonapproach and and equally it
could be, equally it couldequally lead to suffering and
getting in the way of somefunctioning is this idea that?
No, it's not about the rulesand the rigidity, it's about,
you know, total merger,instinctual, just like all love
(22:33):
all the time, and it's thatversion of perfect parenting,
but in both of these it's likeas though there's some perfect
way the parent could be that canreduce all uncertainty for the
child's life, and of coursethat's an illusion, and not a
healthy one.
Christina McKelvy (22:47):
Right, and that can show up in so many
different facets of life.
You know, I need to be theperfect.
You know, like you mentioned inthe book, parent, but the
perfect child, the perfectcoworker, the perfect employee,
perfect spouse.
Yael Goldstein- Love (23:00):
And that way I can control, yes, the
perfect therapist.
Christina McKelvy (23:04):
And if I'm perfect in my eyes, then all
that uncertainty, all thatanxiety around making a mistake
or failing will go away.
But then it kind of is very itgets amplified when there is a
mistake or failure.
That happens.
Yael Goldstein- Love (23:19):
Which of course there will be, because
you're a human.
Christina McKelvy (23:22):
Right, yeah, I don't know any perfect people.
Yael Goldstein- Love (23:26):
Yeah, and even if you are perfect I mean
if you are, even iftheoretically you could be
perfect it still doesn't reducethe uncertainty because we're
not in control of most things.
And so, yeah, I mean I think ofthat as, like you know, that
the hope built or, like you know, the hope, the kind of hope
that's built on the idea of ourown perfect behavior, our own,
(23:48):
like you know, near perfectbehavior, is like that is like a
fragile, fragile kind of hope.
You know that is not realrobust hope.
That is hope that can likeshatter instant life, because
it's not hope that allows inreality.
Like I think you know, robusthope is hope that allows in
reality, and reality is that weare not omnipotent.
(24:11):
Life is uncertain, life is fullof suffering and tragedy and
full of beauty and joy, and youhave to let them both in and
that's, I feel like that's,where any real hope lives for a
parent or for anyone else.
Christina McKelvy (24:28):
And that's where resilience shows up.
Yael Goldstein- Love (24:33):
Yes, right , I mean right.
So that is in a way, like thatis resilience, right, it's
knowing, yeah, it's not allgonna go great and we're gonna
keep on trucking and there'sstill gonna be good things in
life because we keep on trucking.
Christina McKelvy (24:46):
Yeah, and it's finding those, the tools
that you need to keep ontrucking, but also, like you
said, surrendering to the idea.
Oh, my goodness, this cat.
He wants to say hi, hi, hello,what's your name?
He can't hear you, but his nameis Ty.
Yael Goldstein- Love (25:07):
He's very cute.
I have a cat sleeping rightthere.
Christina McKelvy (25:10):
Oh, he's clawing at my back and I'm like
I don't know.
Do you want to sit on me or doyou want to be let out On my web
page for the podcast I havethat.
He's my co-host.
Yael Goldstein- Love (25:20):
That it's very appropriate that he's
making an appearance.
Christina McKelvy (25:22):
Yes, I am very much that type of cat
person.
My husband loves it.
So I'm curious about I canprobably talk about the cat all
day, but we won't.
So you mentioned some of theresearch that you did for your
dissertation.
So how did your well, yourcurrent work now, but also your
(25:48):
dissertation, your research,kind of played into maybe ideas
for the book as well, or howthat?
Yael Goldstein- Love (25:52):
influenced it.
It influenced it quite a bit.
I mean, I started writing thebook before I started the
dissertation research.
The dissertation research inpart grew out of a great need
for efficiency in my lifebecause, as a mother of a young
child and a novelist and havinga full case load of clients and
(26:15):
getting my doctor, I was like,how did you do that?
This is a great mystery in mylife.
I think I have some effectivehypovenia that I am.
Christina McKelvy (26:28):
You're inspiring me.
Yael Goldstein- Love (26:34):
But I was like, well, I'm revising this
novel, I got these revisions dueto Random House and it really
is, at the end of the day, abouthow parents learn to live with
the uncertain futures of theirchildren.
So that's what I'll do mydissertation research on and it
was great it was actually greatto do them both, to do the
(26:54):
research after while I was doingthe revisions for the book,
because there were a few partsto it I mean, one was.
I mean the research itself wasjust fascinating.
I loved doing the research, Ilove talking to these mothers,
but also it made me, I thinkwhen I was writing the book I
had an inkling but was not surehow universal these experiences
(27:16):
were that I was talking about.
I knew that it was true to myexperience and to friends that I
spoke to, but I didn't know, Iwasn't sure quite how much these
were universal themes I wastalking to and of course I still
don't know that they'reuniversal themes.
But in doing this research Isaw just these themes of
uncertainty and how we reconcileourselves and how we either
(27:38):
surrender or don't to thisuncertainty for our children and
what I'm calling now fragile orrobust hope in the role of a
parent that this came up inevery interview in various ways,
and so that was really helpfulto know.
It changed how I wrote the bookin certain ways, I think, or
how I revised it.
I would say that the other thingthat was so amazing was the lit
(28:01):
review.
It's like I was so immersed ineverything about mother, the
subjective experience ofmotherhood, and that, too, was
just so, and I was having a lotof trouble figuring out.
There's this close to finalscene of the book, or I was like
I don't understand what happenshere.
I know that something is like,and for a book like this, we're
(28:24):
both speculative fiction withsome sci-fi elements and it's so
much deeply.
What it really is is about thepsychological experience of
becoming a new parent and, Ithink, a new mother in
particular.
It was like what is the thing?
I know there's something thathas to happen here that is both
the exciting resolution of theadventure story, but also is
something really about thepsychology of what this is, and
(28:48):
I could not figure it out, and Ifinally figured it out through
doing my lit review and actually, I think, also thinking through
my own cases as a psychopath.
It's like, oh, what has tohappen here is.
I need to make a sci-fi sceneout of the process of projective
identification.
This has to be.
(29:09):
I have to show how a mother or aparent or any caregiver, they
receive this communication fromthis wordless infant In the form
of these primal feelings theyhave to sort of the infant
screams, the infant's feelinghunger or cold or whatever it is
, but they don't have theconcept of these things and so
(29:31):
they just feel like awfulnessand then they scream and they
communicate to the caregiverthese feelings of awfulness,
these feelings of like the worldis ending, that you might only
feel for a millisecond beforeyour adult mind can turn it into
like my baby's hungry, mybaby's cold, my baby's tired,
and sort of respond with whatthey need.
(29:53):
And that process, that processof early projective
identification as our earliestform of communication and how
our minds kind of come together,but from the mother's
perspective, like how youexperience from a mother's
perspective, that became the keyto figuring out how to land the
ending of this book.
And I think there was no way Iwould have ever figured out how
(30:16):
to land the ending of this bookif I wasn't immersed in this
other way in this material, as atherapist and as a researcher
and as someone writing mydissertation on this topic.
Christina McKelvy (30:28):
So definitely informed each other and I find
it fascinating, like with thatcommunication or speaking of, I
used to do a lot of earlychildhood intervention and so we
talked about attunement.
You know, having thatattunement between the mom and
child and you know, so it soundslike that's what was seen a lot
, you know, in your lit review.
(30:49):
Are those little areas ofattunement, like what does my
child need?
Meeting, reading their cues,meeting their needs?
Yael Goldstein- Love (30:59):
Some of it .
Yeah, and I think definitely,although I think of the
attunement.
I guess I think of theattunement as Well.
I don't know, I mean, is thisreally true?
I guess I tend to think ofattunement as like the more
palatable moments of that.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like you know, it's like Isee, like, oh, my child wants
(31:19):
to play with me in this, youknow, sort of flirting with our
eyes or we're laughing or we'resmiling and that's and that's,
and that's sort of the happyattunement.
But I guess, but I guessattunement is really also.
I guess attunement is both right, I mean, I guess attunement is
also when it's like you are, youare meeting your child in their
moment of, like, utter panic,like or rage or like whatever
(31:41):
there.
I guess that you know that, ofcourse, is also attunement.
And and I was really interestedin exploring both of those and
especially the more difficultpieces of that, because I think
that that is a part of earlymotherhood that we don't speak
about as much as we need to.
(32:02):
We, we know that that that partof the job is is accepting and
making sense of and acting onsuch difficult, raw emotions.
But yeah, I, I but right likewhy?
(32:22):
Why would that also not becalled attunement?
That is a two men toe, you'reright.
Christina McKelvy (32:26):
And yeah, I was thinking, I was like I don't
know if I'm getting the otherword right or not but definitely
reading cues, you know, andunderstanding those cues and,
like you mentioned, it'sinteresting.
We, you know you're, you'reright, you don't talk a lot
about the difficulties ofparenthood, of motherhood, you
know, and those hard moments.
And again, it is it becauseit's the whole perfect parenting
(32:47):
.
That's even like kind of inparenting magazines and things
like that, maybe not necessarilylike it doesn't say how to be
the perfect parent, but you know, I'm sure people maybe read
into a lot of these parentingbooks and I don't know, with
your lit review did you see alot of talk about the
(33:09):
difficulties of childhood orparenting and those moments?
Yael Goldstein- Love (33:14):
Yeah, I mean I think I saw, yes, I mean
I see a true well, I guess Iguess it depends in what way.
I mean I think there is moreand more there's a growing
interest in the subjectiveexperience of motherhood, you
know, especially within sort offeminist psychoanalytic
literature really looks at it indepth, and so I think, in that
(33:38):
sense, yes, but I think what Idid not find, and that I was
really surprised about but wasgood because it left an opening
for me to actually write mydecision was looking at, in
particular, how mothersreconcile themselves to the
difficulty that is, uncertaintyin particular.
(34:00):
And I think, like, again, itcomes down to that.
You know, when we talk aboutlike perfect parenting and the
idea that like there's like theright way to do this and like
this whole industry that hasgrown up, you know over decades
and decades, at this point tolike of like the parenting
industry that tells you like theright way to do everything, and
I think it can be quite harmfulin certain ways because it can
(34:23):
get in the way of trusting yourinstincts and trusting your
relationship with your child, Ithink that, again, like that all
comes down to like a fragileversus robust hope.
Again, like, I think that all ofus to some extent you know,
whether you're a mother or notwe all kind of want to believe
(34:46):
in the fantasy of a perfectmother, because we all wanted a
perfect mother.
Do you know?
What I mean Like to let go ofthat fantasy is to let go of the
ability that you could have hadthat, and if you let go of the
possibility that you could havehad that, you have to mourn what
you never had, and that ispainful and hard.
And so I think that, like, eachand every one of us, on some
(35:07):
level, is invested in thisfantasy of perfect motherhood,
perfect parenthood, and it's animportant thing to interrogate
in ourselves, because I think itdoes actually a great deal of
harm to two mothers to notinterrogate that fantasy and to
make it seem as though it's justthe way.
(35:28):
You ought to be tryingconstantly to live up to
perfection.
Christina McKelvy (35:32):
Yeah, you're not leading into the anxiety or
leading into the fear.
You're not surrendering.
Yael Goldstein- Love (35:41):
You're not surrendering.
Exactly, you're like against,against.
You're holding on to thatbranch of refusing to fall into
the into the fear.
Yeah.
Christina McKelvy (35:51):
I'm curious how surrendering and, you know,
leading into that fear andanxiety, how that might play
into being able to trust or nottrust their instincts, and how
that showed up for Hannah.
Yael Goldstein- Love (36:05):
Yeah, that's such a good question, I
mean, I think I think it'sthere's not a simple one-to-one
correlation, you know, betweenSurrendering to the, to the fear
, and trusting your instincts.
Because, of course, like notall our instincts, you know, and
that's the truth I can say, assomeone who does not always have
(36:30):
the best instincts, like I, Ithink that the, the, when I
think about you know how to bestuse maternal anxiety, which is
something I think a lot aboutthese days and talk a lot about.
I think that the sort of sweetspot is you don't take your fear
(36:54):
, your instincts, your anxietyat face value, as as Fact, right
, you don't let it control you,you don't let it control your
children, but you take it asinformation.
And then you get curious aboutthe information of like well,
why is this my instinct, why isthis my anxiety?
Why do I keep coming back tothis particular Fearful fantasy
(37:16):
or like this thing in my?
You know what's going on andwhat does this tell me about
myself?
What does it tell me about mychild, what does it tell me
about my relationship with mychild and what people might be
going on between us or somethingelse in my life, and also what
might it tell me about realityand the actual dangers here and
when?
You can Sort of bring thatcuriosity and try to separate
(37:38):
out those strands, then I thinkyou can actually really make
good on your instincts and onyour anxiety and actually use
those feelings as theinformation they're meant to be.
Christina McKelvy (37:49):
Yeah, being curious, and by being curious it
helps you kind of Understand,like, what feelings you should
be leaning into or what might beevident, what might be real
versus Not like.
Okay, I don't need to listen tothis.
It's similar to and I'vementioned this in other podcast
(38:11):
interviews.
I tell a lot of the kids I dotherapy with, or even adults,
that you know your anxiety, yourdepression, even you know
functional hypomania Could be asuperpower in a way you know,
similar to the Hulk.
The Hulk gets that big and hedestroys stuff and a lot of
times it's to save people andyou know, help the Avengers.
(38:33):
But then there are other times,when he gets big, and he gets
just as large and he smashesthings he shouldn't be smashing.
Yael Goldstein- Love (38:40):
Yes, exactly, I mean and in the book
it is.
You know that is exactly whathappens.
Hannah, my main character, likeher, or like being a nervous
Jewish mother, which is what shehas like.
Yes, it's her superpower, youknow.
It's like her ability to like,see all these possibilities to
sort of her vigilance, that sortof in many ways getting in the
(39:02):
way of Her relationship with herchild and her and her husband,
becomes sort of also thissuperpower that then she can
like, when she can harness itproperly, it becomes the key to
sort of saving her child andpotentially also her marriage of
the pets and ambiguous at theend, but yeah.
Christina McKelvy (39:25):
But yeah, I mean just trusting your
instincts be leaning into youranxiety and fear or whatever it
is that you know you might needto lean into more can really
help find fine tune, thoseinstinctual recognitions Exactly
exactly and I have found formyself so much.
Yael Goldstein- Love (39:41):
It's like you know the things that I was
most afraid of.
If I had just tried with my son,you know, if I just tried to
block them out or control themand you know I just don't let
myself go there I would havemissed out on so much
information about myself, likethings I needed to know about
(40:03):
how my Mind works, how the movesI make in relationship to sort
of like keep myself feeling safe, and those and those pieces of
information have been crucial tomy mother, to becoming a better
mother, to knowing you know.
Okay, well, if I make thesemoves in relationship, I'm gonna
be making this moves inrelationship with my child,
(40:24):
which is the one of thoseintimate trying relationships
there is, and so I'm so becauseI was able to pay attention to
my fears and learn things aboutmyself.
There are all these things I'maware of that I do in
relationship or can become awareof when I do Strange things why
did I say that thing?
Why did I do that thing?
(40:44):
You know and I and there's somuch more information to pull
from, and I really think one ofthe you know, for me one of the
biggest sources of thatinformation was staying open,
open to my fear, to theuncertainty, to how I felt in
the uncertainty.
Christina McKelvy (40:59):
Oh, wow, hmm, I Thought in uncertainty.
Yael Goldstein- Love (41:07):
Yeah.
Christina McKelvy (41:08):
Being able to have that, have that confidence
.
Yael Goldstein- Love (41:12):
Yeah, yeah , I think that's a good way to
put it.
Yeah, to have that confidencethat, like I can withstand the
uncertainty and I can sort ofstay open, I threw it and, and
and and see what, what's reallygoing on.
Yeah, I think that is thatyou're right.
I think confidence is a reallygood way to describe that.
Christina McKelvy (41:32):
Yeah, well, I think this.
I think I love when fiction Isable to really teach a valuable
lesson or really speak to aworld that maybe a lot of people
Don't talk about or maybe evenshow a different perspective.
You know of Issues, like youknow new much.
(41:53):
You know new mothers andparents and parenthood and, like
you said that, uncertainty.
So I I think it's really great.
The book is the possibilities.
Are there any other futurebooks that you're working on
that you're able to share, orpast books that you might?
Yael Goldstein- Love (42:07):
want to?
Yeah, sure, I mean so I have.
I have past books Overture andthe passion of Tasha Darskay,
which are actually the same bookwith two different titles.
They changed the title for thepaperback.
It's very confusing.
Why would you buy?
that.
Why would they get?
Yeah, you'd have to take it offwith double day and find out
(42:29):
they changed the title for thepaperback.
So that was my first novel, andthat one is actually it's also
about motherhood and and it's, Imean, very much about hope as
well actually, but but aboutit's about female ambition, um,
and like how do you, how do you,how do you be like an
incredibly ambitious woman, um,while also being a mother and a
daughter?
I wrote it before I was amother, so I vouch for almost
(42:51):
nothing I say about motherhoodin there, but I vouch for
everything I say about youngfemale ambition, um.
And then I'm working on a booknow that is that isn't like
early stages, like I'm stilljust very much playing with it
and I've been describing it asmy, um, my sci-fi house of mirth
, but I'm really not sure aboutit.
(43:13):
It's.
It's about, um, it's about it'sactually it's on, it's actually
sort of like a speculativefiction about the experience of
transference, like about thephenomenon of Transference and
how and how we bring it intoeverything in our lives.
You know that everyrelationship we sort of
experience through this pattern,um, this sort of blueprint of
our past relationships, and andabout single motherhood and the
(43:34):
connection between sex andloneliness, and how will all
those things come together?
We will all be surprised if Ime most of all.
Christina McKelvy (43:44):
I look forward to seeing it and um
definitely see a theme.
You know about motherhood, soyou know my podcast is called
hopology, so I like to closewith asking you know my
participants what is one thingthat brings you hope?
Yael Goldstein- Love (44:03):
I would say that there are many things
that bring me hope.
I feel, um, but I think thatthe thing that brings me most
hope on a day-to-day basis areit's two things, but they're
deeply related.
One is time spent with my sonand just sort of like seeing him
brimming with exuberance andjoy and fury and and misery and
(44:23):
just every emotion, and it allis so moving, um.
And the other is is my, my workwith my psychotherapy clients
and just sort of like seeing the, the, the Bravery of every
single person I work with andthe like the deep desire to see
themselves more clearly, to likeFree themselves from old
(44:46):
patterns.
I think like seeing, seeing bothmy son and seeing these adults
sort of like in the thick oftheir feelings and sort of
trying to like stay true tothemselves.
In the thick of theseoverwhelming feelings it brings
me.
I find myself like moved, likeon an almost spiritual level,
(45:07):
like daily, by sort of beingpart of that, like part of
people, sort of Of they're likemessy humanity and it's like
beautiful, deep level and itjust, I don't know, it makes me.
It makes me feel full of hope,because it makes me feel Full of
sort of the beauty of whatpeople are.
I.
Christina McKelvy (45:30):
Missy humanity.
Yael Goldstein- Love (45:32):
Yeah, I love, I love messy humanity.
Christina McKelvy (45:37):
You know you want to be a novelist.
If you didn't?
I think that is true.
Yael Goldstein- Love (45:43):
Or a therapist, to be honest
therapist.
Christina McKelvy (45:45):
That's right, right.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on my podcast and, like I
said, I look forward to looking,you know, for future novels and
you know the possibilities.
Is such a unique novel and wellwritten and, like I said,
there's so many amazing themesin it.
So, you know, I really yeah, Ireally enjoyed it.
(46:06):
So thank you again, you know,for being here.
Yael Goldstein- Love (46:09):
Thank you so much.
This was this was really,really a wonderful experience,
and I I think this is such awonderful idea for a podcast and
I hope you spread so much hopethrough it.
Christina McKelvy (46:19):
Oh well, thank you, Thank you you.
Welcome to Hopology.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvie.
Today we're going to bespeaking with Yael, who authored
the new thriller thePossibilities, which is about a
new mother who ventures intoparallel worlds to find her
missing child.
The question lingering what ifhe had a second chance?
In this interview, not only dowe talk about the inspiration
behind her book, such as herresearch, but we also talk about
(00:22):
her own experiences as a mother, in the hope that motherhood
brings.
We'll be right back.
Welcome to Hopology.
(01:14):
Stories of hope, healing andresilience.
I'm Christina McKelvie.
Today we have Yael GoldsteinLove.
She is the author of the newbook the Possibilities.
Welcome, how are you?
Yael Goldstein- Love (01:24):
doing.
I'm doing great.
Thank you so much for having me.
This is such a pleasure.
Christina McKelvy (01:29):
Well, thank you.
So you know I was reading yourbook and it's a very interesting
book, and you know my podcastfocuses on a lot of hope,
healing and resilience and I candefinitely see those themes
tied in to the book.
It's fiction, but tell me alittle bit about you, know how
you came to the idea of thestory and you know we'll start
(01:51):
there.
Yael Goldstein- Love (01:52):
Yeah, sure , so it's.
You know.
So the book, it's funny.
I just a reader, I justdescribed the book as everything
everywhere all at once meetswhat to expect when you're
expecting.
And I'm like I didn't just, ohGod, like I, and this is like a
per, I don't even know this per,you know, like I wish that I
had known you and you had like,like, now I know how to describe
(02:13):
this book very quickly.
It's everything everywhere allat once meets, what's to expect
when you're expecting, and it's,you know, it's really a story.
It is a sort of speculativethriller about the anxiety of,
of, of parenthood, the sort oflike the uncertainty.
You know, how do we reconcileourselves to the immense
uncertainty of a child's futurewhen we're, you know, we're so
(02:34):
invested in this child's futureand and so it is.
Really it is a book about.
You know, how do you fosterhope?
How do you or at least like,how do you not let hope totally
collapse into despair and fear?
You know, how do you sort ofkeep the uncertainty alive?
And I really came, you know, Icame to this book.
(02:55):
I was just like I came to thisbook, very honestly, like, but I
feel like, anyway, you come toa book is very honestly right by
that is you know I.
This was my struggle when I hada child, so I my son.
The book begins with a veryfraught birth scene where this
child it's not clear if thechild's going to live or die.
(03:16):
That was my son's birth, sothat that scene is just that is
my son's birth.
That was just me writing myson's birth, so even the scene
where she notices the armdangling except for the arm
dangling, the there's.
That's the only part that'sdifferent.
But the, like you know the, the, the sort of silence greeting.
Like you know, she here, thischild is out, but there's
(03:37):
nothing but silence and the roomis filling with more people and
I asked, and I kept asking, aspeople would run.
You know, is he okay?
Is there any chance he's goingto be okay?
And nobody would answer.
This went on for about an hourand finally someone said there's
a chance.
And I was like, oh, that's theworst answer you could have
possibly get.
That's the response was there'sa chance.
(03:58):
There's a chance he might live.
Yeah, oh, my goodness, I can'teven imagine, yeah, so I I mean.
So that was like an hour that Iwas like in the recovery room,
like having no idea if I was inthe midst of a tragedy, and so
then he was fine.
He turned out to be fine becauseI had because he had enough of
a reserve of oxygen in his cordblood to get him through the 10
(04:18):
minutes unharmed, and and thatwas only because I had incest
insisted on a C section.
I think I might be the onlymother in the history of the
town of Berkeley, california, tohave ever insisted on an
emergency C section, like wewere like the most like anti C
section city in the world,probably.
But but I insisted on a Csection because things are sort
of going wrong and that was whyhe was okay.
(04:39):
And so this like this left mein this state when I got him
home and everything was finewhere I was, just like I am
terrified all the time, and so Icouldn't, I didn't have any
hope in me for him.
It was like I really felt asthough the reality of which he
had died it seemed like he haddied had come too close to
occurring and now he was somehowdoomed, and so everything in
(05:02):
the world like every.
Everything I interpreted inthat light.
I mean, I should also say he wasborn like this was January of
2017.
It's like Trump had just beenelected.
The world was just sort of likefeeling dark and I think, like
his, like almost death, um feltto me like oh yes, of course, of
(05:22):
course, like there's no hope.
This child is doomed.
I never should have had himBecause, like the world is
falling to pieces and so itbecame very easy to go into this
place of despair around theuncertainty of his future, and I
really had to learn how to sortof surrender myself to that
uncertainty in a way that Icould still feel like rich and
(05:44):
alive and engaged with life andengaged with him, and, and, and,
and, so that he could feel hopeand excitement for the future.
You know, and that's where thebook came from.
Christina McKelvy (05:56):
Well, tell me a little bit more about what
that looks like, surrenderingyourself to that uncertainty.
Yael Goldstein- Love (06:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's so hard, in a
way, to say it in words, likeyou know, like by the end I
don't you know if you, if you'vegone to the end of the book,
that's sort of what happens atthe end is you sort of like
figures out how to surrenderherself.
You know, in her particularcase, in this particular
relationship with thisparticular child, and I do think
in some sense it has to be likeit can only be done in a way
(06:22):
that you can do, you know,because I think for all of us,
uncertainty is not, is notcomfortable for any human being.
We are not, we are not aspecies that likes uncertainty,
but for each of us it manifestsin a slightly different way.
You know, like what is it?
You know, what is it about?
Uncertainty that like reallygets onto our skin, like what is
it?
That's very difficult for us,given our personality structure,
(06:44):
given our history.
What are the things that gothrough our head when we're,
like you know, trying tocollapse on certainty and to
despair?
What are the things that we do?
And so I think for each of usit's so distinct.
I think that one thing that Ihave really found for myself,
and then also my dissertationresearch was also was on the
(07:04):
sort of the same topic of howmothers experience, experience
the uncertain futures of theirkids.
So I spoke into a lot of peopleabout this, a lot of mothers
about this, and one theme that Ihave really found in common
among the many, many that arenot in common and are unique is
and actually maybe this is twodifferent things you tell me,
(07:25):
but one is making friends withthat uncertainty.
Do you know what I mean?
Just like I think that makingfriends, yeah, like when, or
just sort of like allowing it,allowing that there's no way out
of it.
Because so one thing that Ireally that was really
interesting to me in mydissertation research was that I
(07:46):
found, like these are alleveryone was responding to this
call that I put out, saying like, do you know, is anyone a
mother?
Do you feel uncertainty aboutyour children's future?
Do you want to talk today?
So it's like very broad, butlike, and I said like, do you
ever worry?
Do you ever worry about yourkids' uncertain future?
But like you know, if you'regoing to respond, you worry
about your kids' uncertainfuture.
(08:06):
And people fell into two campswhen they would, when we would
start the interview, half ofthem would be like I'm a
complete anxious mess, like I'ma disaster, and let me tell you
all about it and those and hereare all my anxieties and here
are the things I think about it.
And it was so interestingbecause those mothers, they were
not a mess at all, they werevery aware of their anxiety but
because they were so aware of itand didn't try to avoid it,
(08:28):
they had done so much thoughtand working through about it.
They had all these thoughtsabout the meaning of it, the
intergenerational meaning, themeaning with their own
personalities, the meaning withtheir own history, what it might
mean about their relationshipwith their children.
They were using that anxiety insuch interesting ways and they
were filled with.
They were filled with a lot offear, as is normal as a parent,
(08:50):
and they were filled with atremendous amount of hope and
meaning.
And they would say these things.
Like you know, very commontheme among this group was they
would say things like you know,I feel like I feel so much more
alive to like every nuance oflike, the seasons of like, of
like you know, when a tomato isfresh, like everything that
(09:13):
could be ripped away at amoment's notice because it can
be ripped away.
Because of that uncertainty.
I feel such richness andaliveness from that, like that
was such a common theme Oneparticipant spoke about like
filling the abundance of theworld war.
And then in the other group itwas this other group also very
introspective, wonderful,thoughtful mothers.
(09:33):
But they came in saying, youknow, I don't really know why I
responded to this because I'mnot that worried actually, like
I thought about it and it's likeyou know, I have all these tips
and tools for controlling myworry and like they really quite
work and like I'm not thatworried.
And those mothers, they weresuffering more.
Actually they were actuallylike they weren't aware of their
(09:56):
suffering as much.
They sort of were keeping itout of their awareness, but they
were suffering more from theuncertainty.
And this came out in a bunch ofdifferent ways.
I mean, one was in reallydisturbing imagery and themes
would sort of pop up in theirinterviews, Like as they were
talking about their kids intheir future.
And so it's like you know, andthey'd be like well, I don't
know why I think about this likeextremely disturbing thing.
I just you know, it just oftencomes up in my thoughts Like,
(10:18):
well, that's interesting, youknow.
And then also these thoughts oflike escape, like these
fantasies of escape to some,like safe haven where they could
keep their kids safe and therewould be hope in that safe haven
.
And that only came up in thatgroup and so, you know, so I
feel like for me that made methat sort of reinforced this
notion that I felt in myself aswell, but I think maybe I'd
(10:40):
never articulated it quite thatway.
Which is the part of thesurrender is just acknowledging
to ourselves like this is scary,like loving someone this much,
loving someone in thisprotective way that a parent
loves a child, where, likeeverything in your psychology
and your biology, is sort oflike giving you this primal urge
(11:03):
to protect this vulnerablebeing and you can't you know you
can't, because you are humanand life is uncertain Just sort
of looking at that head on andfiguring out how to live with
that.
That is where, that is wherethe surrender happens and that
is where the actually the hopeand richness can live.
Christina McKelvy (11:24):
Because you are surrendering, like you said,
surrendering to thatuncertainty, surrendering to the
anxiety and that fear that thiscould happen.
But by doing that, like yousaid, there is the hope is
stronger, and whereas theindividuals that didn't
surrender they had these toolsdidn't come out in other ways
too.
You said it came out in allsorts of ways.
Yael Goldstein- Love (11:44):
that fear yeah, it came, I mean the other
ways were sort of moreindividual, but I would say that
it just seemed like, eventhough they came in not saying
they're a mess, they really justseemed to be their suffering
was higher, like they were.
They were, it was just.
They were just clearly moreanxious day to day and they
didn't speak about that, meaningthat they found with their kids
(12:06):
Like there wasn't that flipside where they would talk about
like the richness that it hadlent their life, and that was
really interesting to me, likeit, just like they seemed more
pessimistic in how they talkedabout their kids' futures.
Christina McKelvy (12:18):
Actually, there's a book called my Friend
Fear.
I don't know if you've heard ofit, oh.
Yael Goldstein- Love (12:25):
Yeah.
Christina McKelvy (12:26):
It's by Marie-Lee Patel and it's it's
basically very similar with, youknow, making friends with your
anxiety, surrendering to it, andI believe it's almost like a
different way of thinking,because we're usually told to
run away from that or it's notnormal or typical, and that must
be a hard conversation, likefrom especially mothers, you
(12:47):
know, to be told.
Yael Goldstein- Love (12:48):
Yeah, I think you're right, cause it's
like none of us we don't like it, like we want to run away from
anything as aversive as thatfeeling, and I think it is.
I think there that can be ahard conversation, but I think
it's also I mean, in myexperience it can also be a very
liberating conversation forparents, because there's
something you're you'reexpending so much energy, you
(13:12):
know, in trying to run away fromthat feeling that I think it
can feel really good to say likeoh, I don't have to expend that
energy, like I can actually bequote, unquote, normal, whatever
that means.
Christina McKelvy (13:24):
When parents are told or anyone is told like,
oh, don't surrender to fear, or, you know, don't lean into the
anxiety.
You should try and avoid it orfind ways to avoid it.
It can.
Actually, you mentioned it'slike freeing more, freeing for
those individuals.
Yael Goldstein- Love (13:40):
Yeah Right , it's like I mean, then we can
sort of move freely through allour feelings.
You know, you don't have toconstrain your feelings, and I
think that there is so muchvaluable information that we get
out of actually, you know,letting ourselves move into that
fear, move into any of thosethoughts I mean.
I mean, I think, for any humanbeing, in any scenario, but in
(14:00):
particular for parents, you know, I think we get information
about our own psyches fromknowing what we're, what we're
afraid of and what we're anxiousabout, and we get information
about our relationship with ourchildren and how that's going
and why we're worried about theparticular things we're worried
about.
And then, you know, I alsothink, like, in addition to this
(14:20):
this is a group that I didn'treally end up speaking to, but I
see a lot on social media and Isee a lot among my friends.
It's like people who, insteadof like trying to push away the
fear, try to push away the hope.
You know, and I think thatthat's Push away the hope, push
away the hope.
Do you know what I mean?
Like where it's like where yougo immediately and it's like
(14:42):
it's all despair, like there'snothing like to be a smart
person is to know that, likewe're doomed.
Do you know what I mean Like?
Do you know that too?
Where it's like I mean you know, and like always speaking as
though things are inevitablygetting worse and worse and
worse and there's no possibilityfor like change, there's no
possibility for hope, and Ithink that that, too, can become
(15:06):
a coping mechanism for ananxious parent, because it's
like it's hard, it's hard to youknow hope is uncertainty.
Christina McKelvy (15:14):
It's uncertainty, and people might
have a sense of disappointmentif things are not as they are.
Yael Goldstein- Love (15:21):
well, we're hoping for, let's say
Exactly, exactly, a sense ofdisappointment and a sense of
like.
There's almost like I meanthere's such a vulnerability in
hope.
You know Like, when you hope,like you are, like you're
wearing, you're wearing yourpossibility for hurt on your
(15:41):
sleeve wearing your possibilityfor her on your sleeve.
Christina McKelvy (15:47):
Oh, I love that.
That is so true.
It's there, like you saidvulnerability you're exposed,
you're exposed.
Yeah, yeah, how did that showup for Hannah, the main
character of the book?
Yael Goldstein- Love (16:02):
The wearing hope on her sleeve part,
or the which part that's true.
Christina McKelvy (16:07):
All of it.
No, I think you know how didshe?
I mean, I know, towards the endyou mentioned there's something
, so I don't want to give thataway but like, how does it show
up for her where she was?
Yeah, wearing hope on hersleeve, that vulnerability you
know as a new parent.
Yael Goldstein- Love (16:26):
Yeah, you know, I think for her it was
about wanting a child at all.
So, like this, you know hercharacter, is this character who
, because of her history ofbeing parented, because of her
history in the war, and you knowas being a person in the world
who could not count on anyone,she, she sort of describes
(16:49):
herself as holding to all thingslightly.
You know, like she just sort oflike she never wants to hold to
anything too tightly becauseshe wants to be okay when things
drift away, you know.
So it's like, you know she also, you know she marries this man,
even like to marry her husband.
It's like that feels like alittle too dangerous but she
like gets convinced of it andthen finally he convinces her to
like have a child.
(17:09):
And I think it's that act ofhaving a child where like, oh my
God, like I cannot hold lightlyto this.
There is no way to hold lightly, to like any outcomes once you
have a child, because you can nolonger, you can no longer
muster holding lightly, becauseyou care so much about that
child.
And I think that so much of thebook is about her reconciling
(17:32):
herself to that Like now Icannot hold lightly, now I will
be devastated by certainoutcomes and I am deeply
invested in certain otheroutcomes and that's her
psychological task inreconciling to motherhood, or
one of them.
Christina McKelvy (17:51):
And she's seen the psychologist because
her holding like it sounds likethere's like she's holding too
tightly and that's kind of likewhat's making the marriage a
little rocky.
Yeah, yeah, that's what youwere for.
Yael Goldstein- Love (18:09):
Yeah, oh, you know what I realized?
Like, actually, I think DrGoodman, the therapist in the
book, is a psychiatrist.
Christina McKelvy (18:13):
I just realized that Psychiatrist yeah
yeah, she prescribed hermedicine.
She prescribed her medicine.
I'm a therapist.
I know the difference.
Shame on me.
Yael Goldstein- Love (18:23):
No shame on me, I wrote it and I was like
, yes, yes, yes, psychiatrist.
I was like Jesus psychiatrist,yeah, I think you know she's
seeing.
She's seeing this psychiatristbecause she can't shake the
feeling.
I call it in the book the carsewer feeling, which is this
feeling that that I think I'vehad many times in my life not
(18:46):
just with my son's birth wherelike something comes too a bad
thing comes too close tohappening that you can't, you
don't feel like you can justlike shake it off and be like
that didn't happen.
There's this feeling of likethat came too close, like
somehow that in itself is adanger and like for me that I
call it the car sewer feeling,cause it's like if there's like
a near miss on the road, youknow, and then you're just like,
(19:06):
ah, you don't just like, youknow, you don't just drive away
and you're like, oh, it's allfine, you drive away and you're
like, shake it.
That terrible thing.
It's almost as though there'sthis other world where it
happened.
That feels like it's a littletoo close to this world.
And so in the book, her child'sbirth, where he almost dies, is
like leaving her with a versionof that feeling that she just
like cannot shake, and so she'sjust filled with anxiety and
(19:29):
doesn't know whether to itmanifests most in like never
knowing whether to trust herinstincts as a mother.
So it's like I feel likethere's this game that so many
mothers play maybe every motherof like, like forever.
It's like, is this my instinctsor is this my anxiety?
Like welcome to today's round,you know, and that is sort of
(19:49):
driving her a little baddie andit's getting in the way of her
relationship and that's whyshe's seeing this therapist.
And then at the start of thebook, like the world goes a
little baddie and it's not clearanymore whether she's the one
who's a little off or the worldis a little off.
Christina McKelvy (20:08):
It's very interesting to see the juxtapose
between at the beginning of thebook, especially the two
different worlds, because shehas one world where, you know,
her child survives and theirrelationship's rocky, but then
in the other world her childdoes not, but their relationship
, you know, at least seemsintact.
Yael Goldstein- Love (20:29):
Yeah, yeah , and in fact it's sort of
better than ever, because theysort of they, they, they, this.
You know this couple has notlearned yet how to love each
other through having a child,but they had.
They did actually navigate, youknow, a very perhaps a harder
thing loving each other throughlosing a child that they were
(20:52):
sort of able to do.
But but their coping strategiesfor actually dealing with the
uncertainty of having the child,as opposed to the despair of
losing the child, are more atodds and they have not figured
out yet.
Yeah, how do you go from atwo-some to a three-some?
How do you love each otherthrough that?
Christina McKelvy (21:07):
Yeah, and dad's response to the child in
the world where they have thechild.
He's not necessarily, you know,similar response to Hannah, but
there's like this aura ofperfect parenting that she
interprets, or you know, that hewants.
Yael Goldstein- Love (21:25):
Yes, yeah, Like this idea that there's a
right way to do everything.
And if you could, only you know.
I think, again, this is aboutlike uncertainty and hope and
and and despair, and sort ofthat balance between hope and
despair is like.
I think that a lot of parentsfall into this trap.
I mean, actually, I thinkHannah and and and Adam both
parents actually fall intoversions of this to something
(21:45):
like this idea that you canreduce uncertainty by, like, you
being so perfect.
If only you can be right, I mean, and I think this is how guilt
and uncertainty gets so entwinedin parenthood, you know.
And so like for Adam the father, he interprets this as like,
okay, like, if we just likefollow these schedules and these
rules and do everything, normal, normal, normal, normal, normal
(22:07):
, whatever that means, then wereduce uncertainty, Whereas for
Hannah, she has sort of this, adifferent approach which again,
I think is a very commonapproach and and equally it
could be, equally it couldequally lead to suffering and
getting in the way of somefunctioning is this idea that?
No, it's not about the rulesand the rigidity, it's about,
you know, total merger,instinctual, just like all love
(22:33):
all the time, and it's thatversion of perfect parenting,
but in both of these it's likeas though there's some perfect
way the parent could be that canreduce all uncertainty for the
child's life, and of coursethat's an illusion, and not a
healthy one.
Christina McKelvy (22:47):
Right, and that can show up in so many
different facets of life.
You know, I need to be theperfect.
You know, like you mentioned inthe book, parent, but the
perfect child, the perfectcoworker, the perfect employee,
perfect spouse.
Yael Goldstein- Love (23:00):
And that way I can control, yes, the
perfect therapist.
Christina McKelvy (23:04):
And if I'm perfect in my eyes, then all
that uncertainty, all thatanxiety around making a mistake
or failing will go away.
But then it kind of is very itgets amplified when there is a
mistake or failure.
That happens.
Yael Goldstein- Love (23:19):
Which of course there will be, because
you're a human.
Christina McKelvy (23:22):
Right, yeah, I don't know any perfect people.
Yael Goldstein- Love (23:26):
Yeah, and even if you are perfect I mean
if you are, even iftheoretically you could be
perfect it still doesn't reducethe uncertainty because we're
not in control of most things.
And so, yeah, I mean I think ofthat as, like you know, that
the hope built or, like you know, the hope, the kind of hope
that's built on the idea of ourown perfect behavior, our own,
(23:48):
like you know, near perfectbehavior, is like that is like a
fragile, fragile kind of hope.
You know that is not realrobust hope.
That is hope that can likeshatter instant life, because
it's not hope that allows inreality.
Like I think you know, robusthope is hope that allows in
reality, and reality is that weare not omnipotent.
(24:11):
Life is uncertain, life is fullof suffering and tragedy and
full of beauty and joy, and youhave to let them both in and
that's, I feel like that's,where any real hope lives for a
parent or for anyone else.
Christina McKelvy (24:28):
And that's where resilience shows up.
Yael Goldstein- Love (24:33):
Yes, right , I mean right.
So that is in a way, like thatis resilience, right, it's
knowing, yeah, it's not allgonna go great and we're gonna
keep on trucking and there'sstill gonna be good things in
life because we keep on trucking.
Christina McKelvy (24:46):
Yeah, and it's finding those, the tools
that you need to keep ontrucking, but also, like you
said, surrendering to the idea.
Oh, my goodness, this cat.
He wants to say hi, hi, hello,what's your name?
He can't hear you, but his nameis Ty.
Yael Goldstein- Love (25:07):
He's very cute.
I have a cat sleeping rightthere.
Christina McKelvy (25:10):
Oh, he's clawing at my back and I'm like
I don't know.
Do you want to sit on me or doyou want to be let out On my web
page for the podcast I havethat.
He's my co-host.
Yael Goldstein- Love (25:20):
That it's very appropriate that he's
making an appearance.
Christina McKelvy (25:22):
Yes, I am very much that type of cat
person.
My husband loves it.
So I'm curious about I canprobably talk about the cat all
day, but we won't.
So you mentioned some of theresearch that you did for your
dissertation.
So how did your well, yourcurrent work now, but also your
(25:48):
dissertation, your research,kind of played into maybe ideas
for the book as well, or howthat?
Yael Goldstein- Love (25:52):
influenced it.
It influenced it quite a bit.
I mean, I started writing thebook before I started the
dissertation research.
The dissertation research inpart grew out of a great need
for efficiency in my lifebecause, as a mother of a young
child and a novelist and havinga full case load of clients and
(26:15):
getting my doctor, I was like,how did you do that?
This is a great mystery in mylife.
I think I have some effectivehypovenia that I am.
Christina McKelvy (26:28):
You're inspiring me.
Yael Goldstein- Love (26:34):
But I was like, well, I'm revising this
novel, I got these revisions dueto Random House and it really
is, at the end of the day, abouthow parents learn to live with
the uncertain futures of theirchildren.
So that's what I'll do mydissertation research on and it
was great it was actually greatto do them both, to do the
(26:54):
research after while I was doingthe revisions for the book,
because there were a few partsto it I mean, one was.
I mean the research itself wasjust fascinating.
I loved doing the research, Ilove talking to these mothers,
but also it made me, I thinkwhen I was writing the book I
had an inkling but was not surehow universal these experiences
(27:16):
were that I was talking about.
I knew that it was true to myexperience and to friends that I
spoke to, but I didn't know, Iwasn't sure quite how much these
were universal themes I wastalking to and of course I still
don't know that they'reuniversal themes.
But in doing this research Isaw just these themes of
uncertainty and how we reconcileourselves and how we either
(27:38):
surrender or don't to thisuncertainty for our children and
what I'm calling now fragile orrobust hope in the role of a
parent that this came up inevery interview in various ways,
and so that was really helpfulto know.
It changed how I wrote the bookin certain ways, I think, or
how I revised it.
I would say that the other thingthat was so amazing was the lit
(28:01):
review.
It's like I was so immersed ineverything about mother, the
subjective experience ofmotherhood, and that, too, was
just so, and I was having a lotof trouble figuring out.
There's this close to finalscene of the book, or I was like
I don't understand what happenshere.
I know that something is like,and for a book like this, we're
(28:24):
both speculative fiction withsome sci-fi elements and it's so
much deeply.
What it really is is about thepsychological experience of
becoming a new parent and, Ithink, a new mother in
particular.
It was like what is the thing?
I know there's something thathas to happen here that is both
the exciting resolution of theadventure story, but also is
something really about thepsychology of what this is, and
(28:48):
I could not figure it out, and Ifinally figured it out through
doing my lit review and actually, I think, also thinking through
my own cases as a psychopath.
It's like, oh, what has tohappen here is.
I need to make a sci-fi sceneout of the process of projective
identification.
This has to be.
(29:09):
I have to show how a mother or aparent or any caregiver, they
receive this communication fromthis wordless infant In the form
of these primal feelings theyhave to sort of the infant
screams, the infant's feelinghunger or cold or whatever it is
, but they don't have theconcept of these things and so
(29:31):
they just feel like awfulnessand then they scream and they
communicate to the caregiverthese feelings of awfulness,
these feelings of like the worldis ending, that you might only
feel for a millisecond beforeyour adult mind can turn it into
like my baby's hungry, mybaby's cold, my baby's tired,
and sort of respond with whatthey need.
(29:53):
And that process, that processof early projective
identification as our earliestform of communication and how
our minds kind of come together,but from the mother's
perspective, like how youexperience from a mother's
perspective, that became the keyto figuring out how to land the
ending of this book.
And I think there was no way Iwould have ever figured out how
(30:16):
to land the ending of this bookif I wasn't immersed in this
other way in this material, as atherapist and as a researcher
and as someone writing mydissertation on this topic.
Christina McKelvy (30:28):
So definitely informed each other and I find
it fascinating, like with thatcommunication or speaking of, I
used to do a lot of earlychildhood intervention and so we
talked about attunement.
You know, having thatattunement between the mom and
child and you know, so it soundslike that's what was seen a lot
, you know, in your lit review.
(30:49):
Are those little areas ofattunement, like what does my
child need?
Meeting, reading their cues,meeting their needs?
Yael Goldstein- Love (30:59):
Some of it .
Yeah, and I think definitely,although I think of the
attunement.
I guess I think of theattunement as Well.
I don't know, I mean, is thisreally true?
I guess I tend to think ofattunement as like the more
palatable moments of that.
Do you know what I mean?
It's like you know, it's like Isee, like, oh, my child wants
(31:19):
to play with me in this, youknow, sort of flirting with our
eyes or we're laughing or we'resmiling and that's and that's,
and that's sort of the happyattunement.
But I guess, but I guessattunement is really also.
I guess attunement is both right, I mean, I guess attunement is
also when it's like you are, youare meeting your child in their
moment of, like, utter panic,like or rage or like whatever
(31:41):
there.
I guess that you know that, ofcourse, is also attunement.
And and I was really interestedin exploring both of those and
especially the more difficultpieces of that, because I think
that that is a part of earlymotherhood that we don't speak
about as much as we need to.
(32:02):
We, we know that that that partof the job is is accepting and
making sense of and acting onsuch difficult, raw emotions.
But yeah, I, I but right likewhy?
(32:22):
Why would that also not becalled attunement?
That is a two men toe, you'reright.
Christina McKelvy (32:26):
And yeah, I was thinking, I was like I don't
know if I'm getting the otherword right or not but definitely
reading cues, you know, andunderstanding those cues and,
like you mentioned, it'sinteresting.
We, you know you're, you'reright, you don't talk a lot
about the difficulties ofparenthood, of motherhood, you
know, and those hard moments.
And again, it is it becauseit's the whole perfect parenting
(32:47):
.
That's even like kind of inparenting magazines and things
like that, maybe not necessarilylike it doesn't say how to be
the perfect parent, but you know, I'm sure people maybe read
into a lot of these parentingbooks and I don't know, with
your lit review did you see alot of talk about the
(33:09):
difficulties of childhood orparenting and those moments?
Yael Goldstein- Love (33:14):
Yeah, I mean I think I saw, yes, I mean
I see a true well, I guess Iguess it depends in what way.
I mean I think there is moreand more there's a growing
interest in the subjectiveexperience of motherhood, you
know, especially within sort offeminist psychoanalytic
literature really looks at it indepth, and so I think, in that
(33:38):
sense, yes, but I think what Idid not find, and that I was
really surprised about but wasgood because it left an opening
for me to actually write mydecision was looking at, in
particular, how mothersreconcile themselves to the
difficulty that is, uncertaintyin particular.
(34:00):
And I think, like, again, itcomes down to that.
You know, when we talk aboutlike perfect parenting and the
idea that like there's like theright way to do this and like
this whole industry that hasgrown up, you know over decades
and decades, at this point tolike of like the parenting
industry that tells you like theright way to do everything, and
I think it can be quite harmfulin certain ways because it can
(34:23):
get in the way of trusting yourinstincts and trusting your
relationship with your child, Ithink that, again, like that all
comes down to like a fragileversus robust hope.
Again, like, I think that all ofus to some extent you know,
whether you're a mother or notwe all kind of want to believe
(34:46):
in the fantasy of a perfectmother, because we all wanted a
perfect mother.
Do you know?
What I mean Like to let go ofthat fantasy is to let go of the
ability that you could have hadthat, and if you let go of the
possibility that you could havehad that, you have to mourn what
you never had, and that ispainful and hard.
And so I think that, like, eachand every one of us, on some
(35:07):
level, is invested in thisfantasy of perfect motherhood,
perfect parenthood, and it's animportant thing to interrogate
in ourselves, because I think itdoes actually a great deal of
harm to two mothers to notinterrogate that fantasy and to
make it seem as though it's justthe way.
(35:28):
You ought to be tryingconstantly to live up to
perfection.
Christina McKelvy (35:32):
Yeah, you're not leading into the anxiety or
leading into the fear.
You're not surrendering.
Yael Goldstein- Love (35:41):
You're not surrendering.
Exactly, you're like against,against.
You're holding on to thatbranch of refusing to fall into
the into the fear.
Yeah.
Christina McKelvy (35:51):
I'm curious how surrendering and, you know,
leading into that fear andanxiety, how that might play
into being able to trust or nottrust their instincts, and how
that showed up for Hannah.
Yael Goldstein- Love (36:05):
Yeah, that's such a good question, I
mean, I think I think it'sthere's not a simple one-to-one
correlation, you know, betweenSurrendering to the, to the fear
, and trusting your instincts.
Because, of course, like notall our instincts, you know, and
that's the truth I can say, assomeone who does not always have
(36:30):
the best instincts, like I, Ithink that the, the, when I
think about you know how to bestuse maternal anxiety, which is
something I think a lot aboutthese days and talk a lot about.
I think that the sort of sweetspot is you don't take your fear
(36:54):
, your instincts, your anxietyat face value, as as Fact, right
, you don't let it control you,you don't let it control your
children, but you take it asinformation.
And then you get curious aboutthe information of like well,
why is this my instinct, why isthis my anxiety?
Why do I keep coming back tothis particular Fearful fantasy
(37:16):
or like this thing in my?
You know what's going on andwhat does this tell me about
myself?
What does it tell me about mychild, what does it tell me
about my relationship with mychild and what people might be
going on between us or somethingelse in my life, and also what
might it tell me about realityand the actual dangers here and
when?
You can Sort of bring thatcuriosity and try to separate
(37:38):
out those strands, then I thinkyou can actually really make
good on your instincts and onyour anxiety and actually use
those feelings as theinformation they're meant to be.
Christina McKelvy (37:49):
Yeah, being curious, and by being curious it
helps you kind of Understand,like, what feelings you should
be leaning into or what might beevident, what might be real
versus Not like.
Okay, I don't need to listen tothis.
It's similar to and I'vementioned this in other podcast
(38:11):
interviews.
I tell a lot of the kids I dotherapy with, or even adults,
that you know your anxiety, yourdepression, even you know
functional hypomania Could be asuperpower in a way you know,
similar to the Hulk.
The Hulk gets that big and hedestroys stuff and a lot of
times it's to save people andyou know, help the Avengers.
(38:33):
But then there are other times,when he gets big, and he gets
just as large and he smashesthings he shouldn't be smashing.
Yael Goldstein- Love (38:40):
Yes, exactly, I mean and in the book
it is.
You know that is exactly whathappens.
Hannah, my main character, likeher, or like being a nervous
Jewish mother, which is what shehas like.
Yes, it's her superpower, youknow.
It's like her ability to like,see all these possibilities to
sort of her vigilance, that sortof in many ways getting in the
(39:02):
way of Her relationship with herchild and her and her husband,
becomes sort of also thissuperpower that then she can
like, when she can harness itproperly, it becomes the key to
sort of saving her child andpotentially also her marriage of
the pets and ambiguous at theend, but yeah.
Christina McKelvy (39:25):
But yeah, I mean just trusting your
instincts be leaning into youranxiety and fear or whatever it
is that you know you might needto lean into more can really
help find fine tune, thoseinstinctual recognitions Exactly
exactly and I have found formyself so much.
Yael Goldstein- Love (39:41):
It's like you know the things that I was
most afraid of.
If I had just tried with my son,you know, if I just tried to
block them out or control themand you know I just don't let
myself go there I would havemissed out on so much
information about myself, likethings I needed to know about
(40:03):
how my Mind works, how the movesI make in relationship to sort
of like keep myself feeling safe, and those and those pieces of
information have been crucial tomy mother, to becoming a better
mother, to knowing you know.
Okay, well, if I make thesemoves in relationship, I'm gonna
be making this moves inrelationship with my child,
(40:24):
which is the one of thoseintimate trying relationships
there is, and so I'm so becauseI was able to pay attention to
my fears and learn things aboutmyself.
There are all these things I'maware of that I do in
relationship or can become awareof when I do Strange things why
did I say that thing?
Why did I do that thing?
(40:44):
You know and I and there's somuch more information to pull
from, and I really think one ofthe you know, for me one of the
biggest sources of thatinformation was staying open,
open to my fear, to theuncertainty, to how I felt in
the uncertainty.
Christina McKelvy (40:59):
Oh, wow, hmm, I Thought in uncertainty.
Yael Goldstein- Love (41:07):
Yeah.
Christina McKelvy (41:08):
Being able to have that, have that confidence
.
Yael Goldstein- Love (41:12):
Yeah, yeah , I think that's a good way to
put it.
Yeah, to have that confidencethat, like I can withstand the
uncertainty and I can sort ofstay open, I threw it and, and
and and see what, what's reallygoing on.
Yeah, I think that is thatyou're right.
I think confidence is a reallygood way to describe that.
Christina McKelvy (41:32):
Yeah, well, I think this.
I think I love when fiction Isable to really teach a valuable
lesson or really speak to aworld that maybe a lot of people
Don't talk about or maybe evenshow a different perspective.
You know of Issues, like youknow new much.
(41:53):
You know new mothers andparents and parenthood and, like
you said that, uncertainty.
So I I think it's really great.
The book is the possibilities.
Are there any other futurebooks that you're working on
that you're able to share, orpast books that you might?
Yael Goldstein- Love (42:07):
want to?
Yeah, sure, I mean so I have.
I have past books Overture andthe passion of Tasha Darskay,
which are actually the same bookwith two different titles.
They changed the title for thepaperback.
It's very confusing.
Why would you buy?
that.
Why would they get?
Yeah, you'd have to take it offwith double day and find out
(42:29):
they changed the title for thepaperback.
So that was my first novel, andthat one is actually it's also
about motherhood and and it's, Imean, very much about hope as
well actually, but but aboutit's about female ambition, um,
and like how do you, how do you,how do you be like an
incredibly ambitious woman, um,while also being a mother and a
daughter?
I wrote it before I was amother, so I vouch for almost
(42:51):
nothing I say about motherhoodin there, but I vouch for
everything I say about youngfemale ambition, um.
And then I'm working on a booknow that is that isn't like
early stages, like I'm stilljust very much playing with it
and I've been describing it asmy, um, my sci-fi house of mirth
, but I'm really not sure aboutit.
(43:13):
It's.
It's about, um, it's about it'sactually it's on, it's actually
sort of like a speculativefiction about the experience of
transference, like about thephenomenon of Transference and
how and how we bring it intoeverything in our lives.
You know that everyrelationship we sort of
experience through this pattern,um, this sort of blueprint of
our past relationships, and andabout single motherhood and the
(43:34):
connection between sex andloneliness, and how will all
those things come together?
We will all be surprised if Ime most of all.
Christina McKelvy (43:44):
I look forward to seeing it and um
definitely see a theme.
You know about motherhood, soyou know my podcast is called
hopology, so I like to closewith asking you know my
participants what is one thingthat brings you hope?
Yael Goldstein- Love (44:03):
I would say that there are many things
that bring me hope.
I feel, um, but I think thatthe thing that brings me most
hope on a day-to-day basis areit's two things, but they're
deeply related.
One is time spent with my sonand just sort of like seeing him
brimming with exuberance andjoy and fury and and misery and
(44:23):
just every emotion, and it allis so moving, um.
And the other is is my, my workwith my psychotherapy clients
and just sort of like seeing the, the, the Bravery of every
single person I work with andthe like the deep desire to see
themselves more clearly, to likeFree themselves from old
(44:46):
patterns.
I think like seeing, seeing bothmy son and seeing these adults
sort of like in the thick oftheir feelings and sort of
trying to like stay true tothemselves.
In the thick of theseoverwhelming feelings it brings
me.
I find myself like moved, likeon an almost spiritual level,
(45:07):
like daily, by sort of beingpart of that, like part of
people, sort of Of they're likemessy humanity and it's like
beautiful, deep level and itjust, I don't know, it makes me.
It makes me feel full of hope,because it makes me feel Full of
sort of the beauty of whatpeople are.
I.
Christina McKelvy (45:30):
Missy humanity.
Yael Goldstein- Love (45:32):
Yeah, I love, I love messy humanity.
Christina McKelvy (45:37):
You know you want to be a novelist.
If you didn't?
I think that is true.
Yael Goldstein- Love (45:43):
Or a therapist, to be honest
therapist.
Christina McKelvy (45:45):
That's right, right.
Well, thank you so much forbeing on my podcast and, like I
said, I look forward to looking,you know, for future novels and
you know the possibilities.
Is such a unique novel and wellwritten and, like I said,
there's so many amazing themesin it.
So, you know, I really yeah, Ireally enjoyed it.
(46:06):
So thank you again, you know,for being here.
Yael Goldstein- Love (46:09):
Thank you so much.
This was this was really,really a wonderful experience,
and I I think this is such awonderful idea for a podcast and
I hope you spread so much hopethrough it.
Christina McKelvy (46:19):
Oh well, thank you, Thank you you.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.