Ever felt like life's throwing more curveballs than you can catch? Tune in as my guest, Sam Knickerbocker, and I discuss the resilience and choices that transform adversity into a foundation for growth. Sam's journey is not just a tale of overcoming; it's a blueprint for anyone looking to navigate the complexities of personal trauma and financial uncertainty—with a sprinkle of neuropsychology and biochemistry for good measure.
Our conversation is a deep dive into the psyche, exploring how our past traumas can dictate our decisions, particularly with money. We tackle the notion that life's 'scent trails' can be disrupted, but how we react to these disruptions can either perpetuate a cycle of avoidance or catalyze a path to healing and self-discovery. Listen as we unravel the threads of choice and consequence, and how, by taking responsibility for our actions, we can paint a canvas of intentionality and purpose.
As we wrap up, Sam shares his vision for legacy—how it's shaped by the values we embrace and the impact we wish to leave on the world. The dialogue weaves through cultural differences in legacy perception, the importance of understanding one's roots, and the role of faith and the human spirit in fostering hope. Join us for an episode that promises to leave you inspired to look inward and build a legacy that echoes with meaning and positivity.
Follow Sam:
Instagram: @sam.knickerbocker
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/samuelknickerbocker
Information on where you can find us.
Follow us on Instagram: @hopeologypodcast and the host @writerchristinamckelvy
To support the show, go to: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/hopeologypodcast
Disclaimer: The views reflected by any of the guests may not reflect the views of the podcast host. Some topics may be difficult for some viewers, so proceed at your own risk. This podcast does not replace psychotherapy or advice and is for entertainment purposes only.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina McKelvy (00:00):
Welcome to Hopology stories of hope,
healing and resilience.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvey.
Today we have Sam Knickerbocker.
Sam, how are you doing?
Sam Knickerbocker (00:08):
I'm doing super fantastic.
Christina McKelvy (00:10):
Thank you.
Oh, my goodness, I need morecoffee.
That sounds great.
I'm glad you're doing well andalso, I was not sure, but I
don't know, if I butchered yourlast name or not no, you crushed
it name or no, you, you crushedit.
It was good, nice, nice.
Well, sam, thanks so much foryou know, being on my podcast
and I did a little research onyou and I saw your website and
(00:31):
you have your own podcast aswell that focuses on legacy and
I think that's something that,you know, we don't always
necessarily think about,especially here in western
society.
Know, we're very right hereright now, but before we dig
(00:51):
into that, tell me a little bitabout yourself and you know
where you, from A to B, likewhere you got to where you're at
now.
Sam Knickerbocker (00:55):
Yeah, so I grew up in Grantsville, utah,
born in Tooele, which is kind ofa sister town of Grantsville,
or I guess Grantsville is like asister town of 12, whatever you
want to say but um, seventh of11 kids.
So my parents, uh, had movedall over the country.
They, when they got married,they moved up to Alaska, had a
few kids up there, then Oregon,then they moved all the way over
(01:18):
to Philadelphia, had my brotherthat's just older than me, um,
and then they moved back to Utahand that's where the remainder
four or five, five of us wereborn.
It was in Utah and at the timeI was born I was actually our
family was very I mean, justimagine having 11 children at
all but financially we were notvery well off.
(01:40):
My parents didn't really haveany consistent work or jobs at
that time, and this is the 1993.
And my I was actually born inmy grandma's living room.
Christina McKelvy (01:51):
So your grandma's living room in my
grandma's living room.
Sam Knickerbocker (01:54):
So my dad is a midwife, um, and I think I was
the first child that was bornat home.
The rest of them were born inlike birthing centers, to my
understanding.
But, I could be wrong, I wasn'taround then.
Yeah, in my grandma's livingroom is where I was born.
My family was living kind ofinside with my grandma another
(02:15):
family as well as kind of livingin a trailer out just on the
parking pad that was by herhouse, and that was pretty much
the existence growing up.
And then when I was maybe sixmonths old, we moved to a house
in Grantsville, utah, that wasactually condemned due to a
(02:36):
faulty foundation.
So the people who owned itbefore we bought it, they tried
to build a second story on theirhouse, but it was on a single
story foundation and so the cityhad come in and condemned the
house because that's notsupposed to happen.
So when we bought it we had togo in under one section at a
(02:56):
time, dig out underneath thefoundation, re-fortify the
foundation so we could finishthe top story of the house.
And what's fascinating is thatkind of analogy and that
experience often happens in ourlives, where we try and build
something in our life, whetherit's a business, a relationship,
a family, a faith in any formof religion, whatever it is.
(03:19):
We build something and weneglect the foundation, because
the foundation is the part thatgets buried that nobody sees,
and so in a world where we'readdicted to the approval of
others, it's really easy toneglect the groundwork, to
neglect the base, the part thatis going to be your foundation.
And they had done this in thathouse as well, and so that was
(03:41):
kind of how I grew up.
This house was like dirt floors, not livable, but we moved into
it still and that's how I wasraised.
It lived there till I was nine.
Then we moved up to Idaho andhad a little bit nicer of a
house up there, a lot ofproperty inside the family when
(04:05):
you think of, like low income,all of the traditional issues
that would come with that.
So anxiety, depression,domestic violence, like things
that in an ideal scenariowouldn't be happening, were
happening, and so I actuallydecided when I went to grow up
and went to high school not highschool we were all homeschooled
as well.
So that's another whole notherset of questions.
(04:26):
If you're curious, we can askthose.
Um but, uh, when I went tocollege, I went to college for
neuropsychology because I wantedto figure out how could I help
families like mine, how could Ihelp children um kind of process
through and become welladjusted, through anxiety,
depression, um Maybe.
(04:46):
How could I help somebody figureout how can they get out of an
abusive situation if they'reuncomfortable there?
Another part of my story isthat when I was 14 years old, I
actually moved out of my houseand moved in with my second
oldest brother and lived withhim and his wife pretty much
till I got married or moved outin college.
(05:06):
So very independent, was raised, very independent.
But I just really wanted tohelp that demographic of people
and so I was doing research.
I'm like, okay, let's go topsychology, kind of found that
psychology was a study ofbehavior.
So I was like, okay, well, whatinfluences behavior?
Then I moved intoneuropsychology because I wanted
like okay, well, whatinfluences behavior?
Then I moved intoneuropsychology because I wanted
(05:27):
to figure out, well, why is,what's the hard science behind,
like behavior and it's brainstructure?
So I was like, okay, well, whatinfluences how brain gets
structured?
Like, is a brain beingstructured differently in Europe
than in Africa, than in Asiathan versus America, versus
Mexico and South America, likewhat influences brain structure?
And so then I ended up gettinginto a little bit of
(05:49):
biochemistry and and found outthat a lot of the things that
influence our brain structureobviously traumatic experiences
have an effect on it, but also,um, the food we eat, the air we
breathe, that all of this otherstuff that the chemical excited
telling your genes how toexpress.
And so then I was like well, whyis this happening?
(06:10):
Why are we experiencing so manymore social issues inside of
low income households, likethat's where the majority of the
issues are?
We all know rich people withproblems like don't get me wrong
, but generally when somebodywho has resources needs help,
then they either have thefinancial resources to remove
themselves from an unhealthysituation or get the help that
(06:34):
they need to rectify thesituation Right.
But somebody who doesn't havethe resources necessary to
improve their situation, theyrespond, go back to our
crocodile or animalistic brainfrom evolution and they just
they're in a state of fear, andfear turns into anger, anger
(06:54):
turns into violence, andviolence is either directed
outward, towards others, wherethere's there's domestic
violence or there's abusehappening, or it's directed
inward, where there's anxiety,depression, self-harm and all of
these other issues.
So the but it really starts atfear and so, like, how do we
help people not fear theirreality?
(07:14):
And so that's really when Ishifted my whole focus from
neuropsychology and I went intoteaching people how money works,
because I I felt like I couldhave a bigger impact through
financial education and helpingmy best to prevent some of the
issues that I saw, rather thanrepair, although we need people
(07:35):
doing both right.
So it's not like a a good orbad.
I think everybody should go toa therapist.
I think everybody should go toa counselor.
You know, everybody should gomake sure that before they get
married, they know how how tocommunicate clearly, like
there's a lot of resources outthere to get the help and we
don't have to just ask what areyou?
scared of and when you you're intherapy you've asked this, I'm
(08:17):
sure, to many people like whatare you scared of?
People who are in an abusivesituation they're scared of?
If they leave, what are theygoing to do?
How are they going to providefor themselves?
How are they going to providefor their children?
Right, there's so many divorceshappening now with women over
the age of 50.
Uh, and a lot of that comesfrom they're raising kids the
first half of their life andonce their kids are out, they're
(08:38):
like I don't have to stay inthis anymore.
I was staying for my kids,right?
Christina McKelvy (08:42):
And.
Sam Knickerbocker (08:43):
I staying for my kids, Right, and I I'm not a
proponent of divorce, but I'malso not against it in that, um,
if you teach your children tosuffer through life and remain
in the situation, is that better?
And I think that there's uhwould counter both of those
(09:07):
arguments, right.
So it's like it's undecidedstill.
Which is better to be raised ina home where you witness
somebody who doesn't respectthemselves, doesn't have
confidence and allows themselvesto be abused, versus separating
and creating clarity like, hey,you don't have to go down this
path of abuse, you know.
So it's like what's better?
(09:27):
Yes, two parent households,statistically, are better for
children.
Christina McKelvy (09:32):
Right.
Sam Knickerbocker (09:32):
However, is a two parent household where
abuse is happening, better forthe child than removing yourself
from that situation, healingand maybe creating a different
two parent household with morestability, more love, more
encouragement, even though it'snot with the same parents?
And so it's like, yeah, divorcedoes affect children.
Anyways, I'm not an advocatefor either side.
(09:55):
I just think that it'ssomething that has to be asked
Like we have to ask ourselveswhy are people remaining?
Why do people keep eatingcrappy food for them?
Their body right Is it?
Is it because that's what theyenjoy?
Or is it because when you gotell them to eat properly,
they're going to have to spendtwo or three times as much on
(10:15):
groceries?
Okay, Well, I've got four kids.
How do I feed four kidshealthfully?
I can't.
So then they choose junk foodbecause.
So then that chemically impactshow your brain is structured,
it slows down your processes, itslows down the synapse
connections and it doesn'tcreate a healthy brain, and so
(10:35):
it's like it's not.
The reason I went to money isbecause I think that that's the
root cause of most people's um,it's, it's like a what's it
called?
Like a teeter-totter.
Right, it's not necessarily thecause, but it's, it's an
inflection point that if we canhelp somebody gain confidence in
their financial life, then theyare able then to deal with all
(11:00):
the other things.
But as long as they're stillscared of like I don't know if
I'm going to be able to eattomorrow, it's really hard to
process through the rest of life.
Christina McKelvy (11:08):
Yes, it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the
foundation, as you were talkingabout before like you need to
have that stable foundation.
Are there any examples or whereyou might use your background
in neuropsychology and yourcurrent work where it kind of
melds together, and I know youkind of provided some of those
already?
Sam Knickerbocker (11:27):
I would say most of the time.
Okay so so let's go back.
So there's a.
There's a scene in thebeginning of a bug's life and
it's probably one of my favoritescenes that I've ever seen in
any movie as far as explaininglife.
And the very first scene afterthe two old guys same old guy,
but whatever after they'replaying chess, then they're
(11:49):
collecting food.
The ants are walking in a lineand this leaf falls in the
middle of the line.
Okay, now all of these ants areall strong enough that they
could combine, move that leafout of the way.
Okay, but they don't.
They sit there and they freakout.
And then an older ant comes andsays hey, it's okay, don't
freak out.
(12:09):
And then he guides them aroundthe leaf, which makes sense.
Right, let's go around the leaf.
They could have gone over it.
They could have picked it upand moved it.
Sure, let's go around it.
Whatever, not a big deal.
So they find the line again.
I didn't understand this untilduring college.
I went and sold a pest controland they're like Sam, you're
jumping around a lot.
(12:29):
I went and sold a pest controland you're like Sam, you're
jumping around a lot.
Okay, follow me on this.
So I went and sold pest controland the I thought the ants
cause all the movies.
I thought they just looked atwhere they were going and had
eyeballs.
Ants actually use theirantennas to determine where
they're going.
Okay, so the lead ant would laya pheromone scent with their
butt and then the other ants ifyou ever see them they're
(12:52):
wiggling because their job is tokeep that pheromone scent in
between their two antennas.
Okay, so that's what it lookslike.
They're walking crooked andbouncing around because they're
following this pheromone scentor they're searching for the
pheromone scent.
So when we have this traumaticexperience that falls onto our
(13:12):
thought processes or onto thepheromone scent, we have a few
options.
We can freak the heck out andlike I'm lost, I don't know what
to do, and then sometimes we goto nice well-meaning therapy
and I and I think that there's atime and a place for this.
So this is not like a shot atit, but it's just is what it is.
Sometimes we get taught to,rather than process the trauma,
(13:34):
to go around the trauma becauseit's a quicker path to not being
psychotic, right, like we all,we all choose to eliminate
trauma out of our lives or toignore it, or to forget about it
, because your brain's job is toprotect you from harm, and if
that trauma is harm, your braindoes it faster than you think.
(13:55):
Like I ask people how manydefining moments do you think
that you have in your life andhow long do you think they last
Right?
So let's say you get injured orsomebody gives you a dirty look
, how long do you experience thepain of rejection before you
start justifying why that personshouldn't have done it or why
(14:17):
you are, why they should havedone it right, so that the pain
of rejection is a microsecond?
And then everything after thatis justifying.
It's our brain saying,explaining to us why it happened
.
So we can be okay with it.
The initial response, though,is a microsecond.
We probably have only less than24 hours worth of experiences in
(14:40):
our lives that the rest of ourlife we're spending avoiding
those experiences, walkingaround those experiences, and so
, for me, this is why it's socrucial to say how do we address
those experiences?
How do we get you in a safeenough spot to address those
experiences?
So when I'm working withsomebody and their money, I know
(15:00):
that how you use money hasnothing to do with money.
Money is an inanimate object.
It's no different than our cellphone or the computer or a
microphone, or our shoes or oursocks.
However, we are the ones whoorient ourselves to money, and
that's based on our perspectiveand our perception.
(15:20):
And so when I'm having aconversation with somebody about
their goals, their dreams, whatdo they believe is possible?
Why do they not track theirmoney?
Okay, if you ask somebody, whyare you not tracking your money?
Most of them had a traumaticexperience when they were three
to eight years old and they gotshamed for a bad report.
(15:41):
They did something that just itdidn't look good, and so it was
not safe to look at somethingwhere they screwed up.
And so you have to process that.
You have to help somebodyunderstand that you can't
progress unless we actually knowwhere you're at.
We have to be willing toidentify where we are before we
can move forward, and that'swhat I find.
(16:03):
There's two quotes here that Ithink when I first share them
with people.
The first reaction again, whichis because we are defensive,
the first reaction is to bedefensive to it and to blame our
problems on somebody else.
But um, if you think about it,you are exactly where you are,
because that's where you putyourself right.
(16:26):
People say, well, I didn'tchoose this.
I didn't choose to have a carhit me.
I didn't choose to have theabuse.
I didn't choose to whatever,and I'm not.
I'm not saying that the abusethat you've experienced is your
fault.
Okay, fault is different thanchoice, but for me, you didn't
actively not choose it right.
(16:49):
You were passively goingthrough life, and most people
don't actively not choose things.
They don't actively putthemselves in situations that
those are never going to happen.
They are putting themselves insituations that are just
whatever, and then, whenwhatever happens, chaos breeds
more chaos, and so the firstthing to recognize is you are
exactly where you are becausethat's what you've chosen, even
(17:12):
if choosing is.
When I say you've chosen, youmay have not chosen and so you
just ended up where you are, butnot choosing is still a choice
to not be intentional notchoosing is still a choice yeah,
it's a binary right.
you're either actively choosingsomething or you're actively not
choosing something like youdon't get to have it Like when
(17:33):
you deduce it down to like acomputer, it's ones and zeros,
it's A or B, it's not.
There's not like well, there'sthis gray area, the computer.
if you try and do gray area, itsays not working, broken, right,
there's no gray area either onor off, and so we're either
choosing or not choosing, andnot choosing is still the choice
of not choosing.
And so when we, when we, thinkabout life that way, it's like
(17:55):
the most damning thing we couldsay is you're exactly where you
are, your experiences areexactly as they are because of
choices you've made.
That doesn't mean everything'syour fault, but it's a result of
the choices you've made.
Like that's just the realities.
So, um, with that being said,though, it's also the most
hopeful thing in my mind thatcould be ever be said is, if I'm
(18:19):
exactly where I am because ofmy choices, then that means that
I have the power to choosesomething else.
Christina McKelvy (18:28):
You're giving them the permission to have
control over their own Rightright Exactly, and most people
they don't want control.
Sam Knickerbocker (18:35):
It's so much easier to be a victim of your
circumstances.
It's so much easier to say well, my mom did this, my dad did
this, I had no, I had no chance,I was born in the wrong house,
I was born in the wrong zip code, I was born in the wrong body,
I was born in what like?
It's so much easier to blameyour problems on somebody else
and I'm not saying thatanybody's at fault but at some
(18:58):
point we have to recognize thatwe have the ability to make a
different choice.
And once we accept that, thatresponsibility in our life, that
we actually have the ability tochoose, then the life, then
life and the world becomes yourblank canvas and you can create
whatever you want.
(19:19):
You can build whatever you want.
You can build your dream life.
It doesn't matter how low of astatus you came from.
You can build your dream lifeand that's been proven over and
over and over and over and overin our world.
Yet it's still easier to say no, it's somebody else's fault.
They had extra help.
Helen Keller didn't have a lotof extra help.
(19:39):
She couldn't see, she couldn'ttalk, like there was so many
things that she had down, butshe still made it possible and
there's tons and tons of storiesabout that like that in our
world.
So that would be like my beliefis and how I help clients is
I'm processing not just howtheir money is.
Their money is more of aphysical representation of where
(20:02):
they're at emotionally, wherethey're at spiritually and where
they're at in a belief andconfidence perspective.
Christina McKelvy (20:27):
Curious what that was like for you when you
because I'm assuming that youhad that defining moment where
you're like, oh, I can make achoice, I can have that control.
What was that like for you whenyou first realized that?
Um?
Sam Knickerbocker (20:39):
I think it's something that continues to go.
I think the first time that Ifeel like I was very aware of
the metacognition nature of that, I because of the enforcer to
become the person who replacedmy mom's enforcement.
Because growing up, my mom wasthe enforcer, she made sure
(21:22):
everything got done.
Because in my, in growing up,my mom was the enforcer, she
made sure everything got done.
Well, I learned at a youngerage that if I didn't want to get
beat, then I needed to makesure everything got done, and so
then I kind of was part of thethe abused class in our house
and then I switched sides justout of self-preservation and I
(21:43):
became the person who was theenforcer.
So, yes, not everybody didn'tget in trouble by my mom as much
, but now I was the one gettingin trouble and as as a part of
that again I was like 12, 13years old.
As a part of that, I kind ofbecame a little dictator in our
house to the point that people,my siblings, if I even walked in
(22:05):
the room, they were scared,right, just as I was scared when
I walked, when we, when my momwalked in the room, you know.
So it's like uncertain, youdon't know what's going to
happen.
They're off the handle.
So the I had become that role.
I didn't realize it because Ihad kind of a savior complex
where I'm like I'm doing this toprotect you from this other
pain, right.
So I thought I was helping mysiblings.
(22:26):
They didn't interpret it thatway, which is fine, I totally
get their perspective now.
So.
So that was all going throughand then what happened was I was
enforcing my will on one of mywell, actually, my brother
that's just older than me, andone of my brothers that's two or
three people older than me.
He had come home from collegeand he was witnessing what was
(22:47):
happening and he's like, yeah,this is not going to happen
anymore.
So he came, he wrestled me downto the ground, like pin me to
the ground and the walls areblue, blue carpet to the
restrain me to the point where Ireally couldn't move.
I mean, I could talk but Icouldn't move physically.
And he held me there for awhile and I was confused.
(23:08):
I was honestly confused.
I was like I'm trying to helpyou.
Why are you not like?
Why are you so upset that I'mtrying to help you guys?
And he said, sam, like, this ishow people feel.
They feel this restrictedemotionally when you walk into a
room.
And I was like what?
Because, again, it's completelycounter to what I believed
(23:29):
about myself.
My self-concept was that I wasserving, but the reality was
that other people wereexperiencing me differently, and
so once I realized that thatwas the outcome in my
relationship with my family,then I was like oh, that's not
what I meant at all.
I mean, for me it felt like ithappened overnight.
(23:53):
I'm sure it didn't, I'm sure Iwas still a little annoying 12,
13-year-old kid, right, and I'mnot perfect by any stretch of
the imagination, by any stretchof the imagination.
But in my mind I switchedpretty quickly into I'm not
going to ask somebody in myfamily to do something unless it
absolutely needs to be done andI would let them know hey, you
(24:14):
can tell me, no, I'm not goingto force you to do it, you can
say no.
If you say no, then I'm goingto go do it immediately.
Right, to demonstrate.
I'm asked, I am being adirector of things in the
household.
I am asking you to do thingsonly because I'm not asking you
to do stuff that I've won I'mnot willing to do myself and two
, that don't need to be done.
(24:34):
So if you tell me no, then I'mgoing to go do it right away so
that you see that this needs tobe done.
Right, it's not like Sam's justtrying to have control.
I don't care about control, Icare about not getting spanked.
That's what I care about.
So, like, how do we do that?
So, um, after about three orfour months of of changing my
(24:58):
methodology, then that's reallywhen, um, my family started
responding differently.
They were much uh all mysiblings at least much more
willing to help.
They wanted to help.
They would ask, hey, what can Ido?
How can I help?
And so I think that was thefirst time that I really
recognized that my behavior umled me to where I was and that I
(25:23):
needed to change myself.
Not my circumstances around me,but I needed to change myself.
And that was a big awakeningthat, like I put myself in this
situation and also I can createa different situation with more
intention.
Christina McKelvy (25:41):
So with more intention.
So, okay, it sounds like alsothat you had a lot of
responsibility.
You know you're talking about.
You know wanting your siblingsto do these tasks, and you were
13.
You know that you took over therole of your mom in a way.
Sam Knickerbocker (25:59):
I think that I don't know that.
I guess it depends on yourdefinition of had a lot of
responsibility.
I think I claimed a lot ofaccountability and I would
consider that different.
So in my mind, again this goesback to kind of maybe my concept
of whether I'm a victim or notand again, this is Sam's words,
(26:21):
so you can go look it up in yourown dictionary and determine
what you believe or not.
But if you invert the wordsresponsibility to the ability to
respond, or accountability orthe ability to account, then you
really start to think aboutlife differently, right?
Because if you have the abilityto respond, response requires
(26:43):
stimulus, and so if you're stuckin a state of responsibility,
then in my mind you're juststuck in a perpetual victimhood.
You're stuck being a victim ofwhat somebody else and some
people say well, it's not avictim, they're helping me,
whatever you want to call it,dude, I don't care, but in my
mind you're not proactive.
(27:08):
If you are responsive, you'renot proactive.
That doesn't mean that beingresponsive is bad.
I'm not demonizing orvillainizing being responsive,
but thinking that responsive isa extremely positive creative
trait I don't agree with.
I think that if you'reresponsive to your environment
trait I don't agree with.
I think that if you'reresponsive to your environment,
then you're probably just avictim to your environment,
unless you recognize theenvironment's acting a certain
(27:30):
way, and then you areaccountable to the feedback.
You're accountable to thereactions and then you create
something else.
But if you're not activelycreating and accounting for the
feedback, then you're just avictim of your circumstances.
So if you're spending yourwhole life avoiding debt, or
you're spending your whole lifeavoiding making money or
avoiding work or avoiding badrelationships or whatever,
(27:52):
you're just spending your lifein an avoidance mechanism and
cycle and that's just victimhoodand everything's going to be
somebody else's fault.
Because anytime somethingdoesn't work out, then you avoid
rather than identify, inspect,find out what didn't work out
the way you want it to, and thenactively create and account for
(28:13):
the discrepancy and then moveforward towards your creation.
And so that's why I wouldn'tconsider myself having a lot of
responsibility as much as Ichose to be, because I have 11
siblings right, nobody else inthe house.
When my mom would beat us, wewould all still do what we
needed to do.
(28:34):
So that's like we can all beresponsible, but being
accountable, who's going tochoose to start accounting for
these variables and say okay,how do we minimize the impact of
these variables?
They're there, we can't like.
We live here, it is what it is.
Okay, how do we, how do weminimize the impact of these
unknown variables and startaccounting for that?
(28:57):
Like, you don't know how muchyou're going to spend on gas
every month, but you can have abudget for how much you're going
to spend on gas every month.
But you can have a budget forhow much you're going to spend
and start tracking it.
So you have an idea.
Okay, I never spend more than$95 a month on gas.
Great, now we know that we needto at least put away $95 a
month for gas.
Now, if you only spend 81months, that's a win.
But if you go spend 150 andyour budget's 90, that's not
(29:21):
going to add up at the end ofthe day.
And you got to adjust.
You got to start telling yourfriends that you can't go out.
You got to start doing thingsdifferently, because you can't
overspend that way forever.
And it's the same way with youremotions and your, your
relationships.
You can't overspend in youremotions and your relationships
forever.
You're going to break and it'snot going to last.
Like, you have to beaccountable to your reality at
some point at least I believeyou do and so I do believe that
(29:44):
I claimed a lot ofaccountability, um, for my life
at a young age, um, and I don'tknow if that was like my parents
had a very specific goal whenthey got when, when they started
having kids.
And it was that we would be bythe age of 14, be independent
(30:07):
enough that if they had, if theydied or something, we'd be able
to take care of ourselves andprovide value and work in the
economy.
And so there was highexpectations of us and they did
a very good job at raising 11children with that mentality and
that high work ethic.
And so when I was 11 and Iactually started working
(30:27):
full-time at a honey extractingplant when I was 11 years old
and so and it wasn't like myparents forced me to do it they
gave me an option.
I said you can keep doinghomework, because we were
homeschooled, or you can go geta full-time job.
And I was like I hate doinghomework, that's the last thing
(30:47):
in the world I want to do.
So I went and got a full-timejob but, like at that age, I was
given choice and I chose tomake choices, um, based on what
I wanted rather than whatprobably my parents would have
preferred, but who knows?
I mean I think they wanted meto be successful either way.
Christina McKelvy (31:00):
So I think this might be a good transition,
(31:23):
real quick, into talking aboutwhat legacy means to you.
You know, and you know whythat's such an important topic
for you that you share withothers.
You know about creating theirlegacy.
Sam Knickerbocker (31:30):
Yeah.
So I think it stems from maybeall stems from really my core
belief that I'm a creator andthat my, my purpose on this
earth is to to use whatevergifts and talents I was, uh,
given to create something like.
So that's like my core,foundational belief that the
next on top of that would bethat I believe that everybody
(31:53):
not just me, like I'm not someGod or anything, but everybody
deserves to be remembered, likewe all have some gift in our
life.
That if we were really to shedthe fear and insecurity of what
other people think about us andthe addiction to the approval of
others, if we were able to shedthat and live in who we feel we
were meant to be, I believethat there's so many hidden
(32:16):
gifts and talents that are worthbeing remembered.
And so, as a result of worthbeing remembered, I think your
legacy is how you are remembered.
Now some people they aren'tremembered because they didn't
do anything of consequence,right?
So that's also your legacy is,you didn't get remembered.
But something you mentioned atthe very beginning of the
podcast is in the Westerncultures it's very much here now
(32:41):
immediacy, immediategratification, what can we next?
And in Eastern cultures they'vereally done a very good job at
sharing, whether it's genealogyor understanding the history of
a country or the history of afamily.
And, hey look, we have certaincore values that have been here
since 2000 years ago and it'sstill important that you do that
(33:04):
.
And it's there's this honor tothe bigger vision, there's this
honor to the legacy or thedynasty of a family or a country
or a community more thanoneself, and they they very much
so in the Eastern cultures arenot focused on self, but focused
(33:25):
on the overall story.
Christina McKelvy (33:27):
The collective.
Sam Knickerbocker (33:28):
Yeah, the collective, and I think that we
can all benefit from that, notto lose our individuality or say
, well, it doesn't matter,because I'm just a little blip
on the storyline of this.
But what if you were toprogress the legacy that has
been handed down already, likelearn about your grandparents,
learn about your parents, learnabout why they did what they did
(33:50):
, find what you want to be athrough path for and carry that
on Like.
I love the fact, uh, even allthe things that happened in my
childhood.
I'm so grateful for all of mychildhood the goods, the goods,
the bads, everything.
I'm grateful that it producedme.
I'm grateful that they caredenough to help me learn to read,
write, do math.
(34:10):
I'm grateful that they caredenough to learn to teach me how
to work hard and character, behonest, have integrity, do the
things you say you're going todo, and so passing those on to
the next generation.
I love for it not to start withme and not to end with me, but
for it to be a through line.
Of like, when I meet aknickerbocker, this is what
(34:31):
their experience of aknickerbocker is whether it's my
parents, whether it's me, orwhether it's my children or my
grandparents, it's all like man.
I remember meeting aknickerbocker.
They were the hardest working,honest, direct, upfront people
I've ever met with.
We need more of them workingwith us.
So now there's this duty to thefamily name of what you're
(34:53):
going to be, who you're going tobe.
There's a duty to the legacy,and it happens in corporate
culture all the time.
Where a CEO comes into Disneyor comes into Chase Bank or
comes into A1 Garage, it doesn'tmatter, right?
They come into these companiesand they have to be able to
manage and further the missionof the company over furthering
(35:18):
their own personal mission.
They can get accolades whilethey're there and that's why
they're hired, but we reallywant them to further the company
, the brand and most of thebiggest companies you know today
.
You see them in the grocerystores, you see them on cars,
everything.
They're all the last names ofpeople.
Christina McKelvy (35:36):
That's true, yeah.
Sam Knickerbocker (35:38):
And so when you think about that, it's like
man, what am I building with mylast name?
What am I building that's goingto be around because of what
somebody stood for.
And so that's where I thinkyou're worth being remembered,
Not necessarily how much moneyyou made or what you did with
the money or any of that.
I mean.
Sure, I think we all could bewealthier and I support that and
(36:01):
I'd encourage that.
Christina McKelvy (36:02):
Go get as much money as you can.
Sam Knickerbocker (36:04):
Don't be poor , right?
I'm not saying that, but theonly reason to get money is to
do something positive with itand to make a change.
So how are you going to beremembered?
So that's really where I wouldput legacy at.
Christina McKelvy (36:18):
How are you going to be remembered?
Yeah, I like what you mentioned.
What am I building with my lastname?
That's pretty powerful there.
Well, you know, sam, I feelthat you know hope, like you
mentioned earlier.
That hope, it's very hopeful to.
(36:40):
I wrote it down.
I don't even know where I putit, but you know there's a lot
of hope in what you're teachingothers about legacy, about
having that foundation.
So I'm going to turn it back toyou as and I asked this
question to everybody that's onmy show what gives you hope,
what brings you hope?
Sam Knickerbocker (36:56):
Yeah.
So for me, the thing that givesme hope is the first.
It's Jesus Christ.
Right, for me.
I'm I'm a believer in JesusChrist and I believe that his
example uh had the ability toteach the world that we can
create our own path, that we canum overcome all of our things,
(37:19):
our inadequacies, all the thingsthat we believe are um the
things that hold us back, thatwe don't have to allow those to
hold us back, that we canemotionally, spiritually,
physically shed those um thingsand um move forward and not let
them drag us down.
So that would be my first thingis like Jesus Christ gives me
(37:43):
hope.
Second thing would just be myown personal experiences of
being a creator.
I've experienced creationenough that I am hopeful that I
will continue to be able tolearn to create bigger and
better, more meaningful, helpful, world-serving things.
(38:05):
As I progress in my mastery ofcreation and because I see other
people doing it, then I think,like, for me, that gives me hope
.
I will eventually figure it out.
I'm not perfect at this.
I would say I have anunderstanding of it, but I
certainly am not like a masterof it yet.
I understand basically how acar works, but I don't know how
(38:28):
to create a car you know.
So it's like there's thedifference between understanding
something and being having itbecome your habitual routine to
be implementing and so.
But it gives me hope to seeother people succeed, because
that means I can also succeed.
I don't have to be stuck in mytrauma.
I don't have to be stuck in mypast, because if one person can
(38:51):
get past it, then I choose tobelieve that everybody can get
past it if one person can getpast it, everyone can.
Christina McKelvy (39:02):
Yeah, and it's really inspiring seeing
other people succeed too.
Sam Knickerbocker (39:07):
It can be really motivating right, like in
my book, the nine pillars tobuild a meaningful legacy.
In that book, the first two,like, there's basically nine
reasons why somebody would dosomething, or nine demographics
of people that your examplecould set a good example for,
and the first one is for yourhaters.
(39:30):
Right, the first reason in mymind to go do go build a legacy
is for your haters, because yourhaters are people generally
that don't believe anybody cando it.
Most of the haters aren'tpeople who believe that they
could do it and you can't.
Most of the haters are peoplewho don't believe that your
(39:50):
goals are even possible, thatyour dreams can be achieved.
They just don't believe anybodycan do it.
And so you going and winning.
Actually, it's like you walkingaround that leaf, it's you
showing them the path of okay,it's possible.
Okay, it's possible.
That's the cool part it'spossible.
So the first reason I think foryou to go build a meaningful
legacy is to demonstrate to thepeople around you who have lost
(40:13):
hope that it's possible.
That's the first reason.
The second reason and thisdemographic is almost more
dangerous to themselves than thehaters the haters are very,
again, when we're talking aboutthe fear and then the anger and
then the violence.
Where does that go?
The first haters that vitriol,that anger is going outward.
(40:35):
They're the ones trying to tearyou down.
Those are the crabs that aretrying to keep you in the barrel
.
But the second group is yourbelievers, all the people who
are going to cheer you on thesidelines.
They're going to be excited foryou.
They're going to believe thatyou can do it, but not me.
Christina McKelvy (40:50):
Okay.
Sam Knickerbocker (40:51):
And that's even worse because those people,
they believe that it can bedone, but they've resigned
themselves to not chasing theirdreams.
They've said, oh, you can getyour dreams, but I can't.
And this is what most parentsteach their children I've got to
go work, a job, but you candream about being whatever you
want.
And Ed Milet he says this isprobably one of the biggest
(41:12):
forms of child abuse in ourcountry is parents not going for
their dreams, because it'steaching the next child, the
next generation.
You shouldn't go for yourdreams either.
And then we lose innovation as acountry, we lose innovation as
a world, because we have tons ofpeople resigning themselves,
(41:32):
selling out and saying I don'thave hope anymore, I'm just
going to exist until I die.
Hopefully it's like man.
Life doesn't have to be thatmiserable.
Life is exciting.
There's so many cool things outthere, and so those are the
first two reasons why I believeit's it's our duty to build a
meaningful legacy first to be anexample and give hope to the
(41:53):
haters, and then also to be anexample to the believers who
have chosen out of creating.
And so, um, if we can keepfocused on that, I think we've
got a great track record aheadof us.
Christina McKelvy (42:06):
And you mentioned that is in your book.
What's the title of your book?
Sam Knickerbocker (42:11):
Fuel your Legacy the Nine Pillars to Build
a Meaningful Legacy and you canget it on Amazon or on my
website, samknickerbachercom.
Christina McKelvy (42:20):
And where else can our audience find you?
Sam Knicker (42:23):
samknickerbockercom you can find me and I have
links to all my social medias.
My podcast, the Fuel, yourLegacy show.
That podcast is really focusedon interviewing people and
learning about what questionsdid they ask themselves that
drove them to their success inany area?
Maybe they asked themselves aquestion and they became a
successful mother, successfulfather, a successful husband,
(42:45):
successful wife, like, successis not defined financially.
For me, it's just like what didyou set a goal out?
You asked yourself a question,you decided where you were
headed as a result of the answerto that question and you went
and got it.
Like that's success to me, um,and so it just goes to anybody,
and there's lots of differentpeople on there, lots of
different characters, but I loveinterviewing people and so
(43:09):
that's.
There's a link on there on mywebsite, samknickerbachercom,
and then all my socials arelinked to samknickerbachercom as
well.
Christina McKelvy (43:18):
Thank you, and we'll all have those in the
show notes, you know, for peopleto access easily.
Well, sam, it was a pleasureinterviewing you and learning
about your story and what andhow it shaped you.
You know how it shaped whereyou are today and you know
choosing to educate people about.
You know how to have a powerfullegacy, and I said build for
(43:39):
your haters I love that, youknow and also for your believers
.
So, thank you so much for beinghere and, yeah, I just continue
to hope that you have awonderful legacy yourself.
Sam Knickerbocker (43:50):
Yeah, awesome , hey.
Thank you so much, christina.
I'm grateful that I was able tohop on here and add value to
those who listen.
Christina McKelvy (43:56):
Thank you.
Welcome to Hopology stories of hope,
healing and resilience.
I'm your host, christinaMcKelvey.
Today we have Sam Knickerbocker.
Sam, how are you doing?
Sam Knickerbocker (00:08):
I'm doing super fantastic.
Christina McKelvy (00:10):
Thank you.
Oh, my goodness, I need morecoffee.
That sounds great.
I'm glad you're doing well andalso, I was not sure, but I
don't know, if I butchered yourlast name or not no, you crushed
it name or no, you, you crushedit.
It was good, nice, nice.
Well, sam, thanks so much foryou know, being on my podcast
and I did a little research onyou and I saw your website and
(00:31):
you have your own podcast aswell that focuses on legacy and
I think that's something that,you know, we don't always
necessarily think about,especially here in western
society.
Know, we're very right hereright now, but before we dig
(00:51):
into that, tell me a little bitabout yourself and you know
where you, from A to B, likewhere you got to where you're at
now.
Sam Knickerbocker (00:55):
Yeah, so I grew up in Grantsville, utah,
born in Tooele, which is kind ofa sister town of Grantsville,
or I guess Grantsville is like asister town of 12, whatever you
want to say but um, seventh of11 kids.
So my parents, uh, had movedall over the country.
They, when they got married,they moved up to Alaska, had a
few kids up there, then Oregon,then they moved all the way over
(01:18):
to Philadelphia, had my brotherthat's just older than me, um,
and then they moved back to Utahand that's where the remainder
four or five, five of us wereborn.
It was in Utah and at the timeI was born I was actually our
family was very I mean, justimagine having 11 children at
all but financially we were notvery well off.
(01:40):
My parents didn't really haveany consistent work or jobs at
that time, and this is the 1993.
And my I was actually born inmy grandma's living room.
Christina McKelvy (01:51):
So your grandma's living room in my
grandma's living room.
Sam Knickerbocker (01:54):
So my dad is a midwife, um, and I think I was
the first child that was bornat home.
The rest of them were born inlike birthing centers, to my
understanding.
But, I could be wrong, I wasn'taround then.
Yeah, in my grandma's livingroom is where I was born.
My family was living kind ofinside with my grandma another
(02:15):
family as well as kind of livingin a trailer out just on the
parking pad that was by herhouse, and that was pretty much
the existence growing up.
And then when I was maybe sixmonths old, we moved to a house
in Grantsville, utah, that wasactually condemned due to a
(02:36):
faulty foundation.
So the people who owned itbefore we bought it, they tried
to build a second story on theirhouse, but it was on a single
story foundation and so the cityhad come in and condemned the
house because that's notsupposed to happen.
So when we bought it we had togo in under one section at a
(02:56):
time, dig out underneath thefoundation, re-fortify the
foundation so we could finishthe top story of the house.
And what's fascinating is thatkind of analogy and that
experience often happens in ourlives, where we try and build
something in our life, whetherit's a business, a relationship,
a family, a faith in any formof religion, whatever it is.
(03:19):
We build something and weneglect the foundation, because
the foundation is the part thatgets buried that nobody sees,
and so in a world where we'readdicted to the approval of
others, it's really easy toneglect the groundwork, to
neglect the base, the part thatis going to be your foundation.
And they had done this in thathouse as well, and so that was
(03:41):
kind of how I grew up.
This house was like dirt floors, not livable, but we moved into
it still and that's how I wasraised.
It lived there till I was nine.
Then we moved up to Idaho andhad a little bit nicer of a
house up there, a lot ofproperty inside the family when
(04:05):
you think of, like low income,all of the traditional issues
that would come with that.
So anxiety, depression,domestic violence, like things
that in an ideal scenariowouldn't be happening, were
happening, and so I actuallydecided when I went to grow up
and went to high school not highschool we were all homeschooled
as well.
So that's another whole notherset of questions.
(04:26):
If you're curious, we can askthose.
Um but, uh, when I went tocollege, I went to college for
neuropsychology because I wantedto figure out how could I help
families like mine, how could Ihelp children um kind of process
through and become welladjusted, through anxiety,
depression, um Maybe.
(04:46):
How could I help somebody figureout how can they get out of an
abusive situation if they'reuncomfortable there?
Another part of my story isthat when I was 14 years old, I
actually moved out of my houseand moved in with my second
oldest brother and lived withhim and his wife pretty much
till I got married or moved outin college.
(05:06):
So very independent, was raised, very independent.
But I just really wanted tohelp that demographic of people
and so I was doing research.
I'm like, okay, let's go topsychology, kind of found that
psychology was a study ofbehavior.
So I was like, okay, well, whatinfluences behavior?
Then I moved intoneuropsychology because I wanted
like okay, well, whatinfluences behavior?
Then I moved intoneuropsychology because I wanted
(05:27):
to figure out, well, why is,what's the hard science behind,
like behavior and it's brainstructure?
So I was like, okay, well, whatinfluences how brain gets
structured?
Like, is a brain beingstructured differently in Europe
than in Africa, than in Asiathan versus America, versus
Mexico and South America, likewhat influences brain structure?
And so then I ended up gettinginto a little bit of
(05:49):
biochemistry and and found outthat a lot of the things that
influence our brain structureobviously traumatic experiences
have an effect on it, but also,um, the food we eat, the air we
breathe, that all of this otherstuff that the chemical excited
telling your genes how toexpress.
And so then I was like well, whyis this happening?
(06:10):
Why are we experiencing so manymore social issues inside of
low income households, likethat's where the majority of the
issues are?
We all know rich people withproblems like don't get me wrong
, but generally when somebodywho has resources needs help,
then they either have thefinancial resources to remove
themselves from an unhealthysituation or get the help that
(06:34):
they need to rectify thesituation Right.
But somebody who doesn't havethe resources necessary to
improve their situation, theyrespond, go back to our
crocodile or animalistic brainfrom evolution and they just
they're in a state of fear, andfear turns into anger, anger
(06:54):
turns into violence, andviolence is either directed
outward, towards others, wherethere's there's domestic
violence or there's abusehappening, or it's directed
inward, where there's anxiety,depression, self-harm and all of
these other issues.
So the but it really starts atfear and so, like, how do we
help people not fear theirreality?
(07:14):
And so that's really when Ishifted my whole focus from
neuropsychology and I went intoteaching people how money works,
because I I felt like I couldhave a bigger impact through
financial education and helpingmy best to prevent some of the
issues that I saw, rather thanrepair, although we need people
(07:35):
doing both right.
So it's not like a a good orbad.
I think everybody should go toa therapist.
I think everybody should go toa counselor.
You know, everybody should gomake sure that before they get
married, they know how how tocommunicate clearly, like
there's a lot of resources outthere to get the help and we
don't have to just ask what areyou?
scared of and when you you're intherapy you've asked this, I'm
(08:17):
sure, to many people like whatare you scared of?
People who are in an abusivesituation they're scared of?
If they leave, what are theygoing to do?
How are they going to providefor themselves?
How are they going to providefor their children?
Right, there's so many divorceshappening now with women over
the age of 50.
Uh, and a lot of that comesfrom they're raising kids the
first half of their life andonce their kids are out, they're
(08:38):
like I don't have to stay inthis anymore.
I was staying for my kids,right?
Christina McKelvy (08:42):
And.
Sam Knickerbocker (08:43):
I staying for my kids, Right, and I I'm not a
proponent of divorce, but I'malso not against it in that, um,
if you teach your children tosuffer through life and remain
in the situation, is that better?
And I think that there's uhwould counter both of those
(09:07):
arguments, right.
So it's like it's undecidedstill.
Which is better to be raised ina home where you witness
somebody who doesn't respectthemselves, doesn't have
confidence and allows themselvesto be abused, versus separating
and creating clarity like, hey,you don't have to go down this
path of abuse, you know.
So it's like what's better?
(09:27):
Yes, two parent households,statistically, are better for
children.
Christina McKelvy (09:32):
Right.
Sam Knickerbocker (09:32):
However, is a two parent household where
abuse is happening, better forthe child than removing yourself
from that situation, healingand maybe creating a different
two parent household with morestability, more love, more
encouragement, even though it'snot with the same parents?
And so it's like, yeah, divorcedoes affect children.
Anyways, I'm not an advocatefor either side.
(09:55):
I just think that it'ssomething that has to be asked
Like we have to ask ourselveswhy are people remaining?
Why do people keep eatingcrappy food for them?
Their body right Is it?
Is it because that's what theyenjoy?
Or is it because when you gotell them to eat properly,
they're going to have to spendtwo or three times as much on
(10:15):
groceries?
Okay, Well, I've got four kids.
How do I feed four kidshealthfully?
I can't.
So then they choose junk foodbecause.
So then that chemically impactshow your brain is structured,
it slows down your processes, itslows down the synapse
connections and it doesn'tcreate a healthy brain, and so
(10:35):
it's like it's not.
The reason I went to money isbecause I think that that's the
root cause of most people's um,it's, it's like a what's it
called?
Like a teeter-totter.
Right, it's not necessarily thecause, but it's, it's an
inflection point that if we canhelp somebody gain confidence in
their financial life, then theyare able then to deal with all
(11:00):
the other things.
But as long as they're stillscared of like I don't know if
I'm going to be able to eattomorrow, it's really hard to
process through the rest of life.
Christina McKelvy (11:08):
Yes, it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the
foundation, as you were talkingabout before like you need to
have that stable foundation.
Are there any examples or whereyou might use your background
in neuropsychology and yourcurrent work where it kind of
melds together, and I know youkind of provided some of those
already?
Sam Knickerbocker (11:27):
I would say most of the time.
Okay so so let's go back.
So there's a.
There's a scene in thebeginning of a bug's life and
it's probably one of my favoritescenes that I've ever seen in
any movie as far as explaininglife.
And the very first scene afterthe two old guys same old guy,
but whatever after they'replaying chess, then they're
(11:49):
collecting food.
The ants are walking in a lineand this leaf falls in the
middle of the line.
Okay, now all of these ants areall strong enough that they
could combine, move that leafout of the way.
Okay, but they don't.
They sit there and they freakout.
And then an older ant comes andsays hey, it's okay, don't
freak out.
(12:09):
And then he guides them aroundthe leaf, which makes sense.
Right, let's go around the leaf.
They could have gone over it.
They could have picked it upand moved it.
Sure, let's go around it.
Whatever, not a big deal.
So they find the line again.
I didn't understand this untilduring college.
I went and sold a pest controland they're like Sam, you're
jumping around a lot.
(12:29):
I went and sold a pest controland you're like Sam, you're
jumping around a lot.
Okay, follow me on this.
So I went and sold pest controland the I thought the ants
cause all the movies.
I thought they just looked atwhere they were going and had
eyeballs.
Ants actually use theirantennas to determine where
they're going.
Okay, so the lead ant would laya pheromone scent with their
butt and then the other ants ifyou ever see them they're
(12:52):
wiggling because their job is tokeep that pheromone scent in
between their two antennas.
Okay, so that's what it lookslike.
They're walking crooked andbouncing around because they're
following this pheromone scentor they're searching for the
pheromone scent.
So when we have this traumaticexperience that falls onto our
(13:12):
thought processes or onto thepheromone scent, we have a few
options.
We can freak the heck out andlike I'm lost, I don't know what
to do, and then sometimes we goto nice well-meaning therapy
and I and I think that there's atime and a place for this.
So this is not like a shot atit, but it's just is what it is.
Sometimes we get taught to,rather than process the trauma,
(13:34):
to go around the trauma becauseit's a quicker path to not being
psychotic, right, like we all,we all choose to eliminate
trauma out of our lives or toignore it, or to forget about it
, because your brain's job is toprotect you from harm, and if
that trauma is harm, your braindoes it faster than you think.
(13:55):
Like I ask people how manydefining moments do you think
that you have in your life andhow long do you think they last
Right?
So let's say you get injured orsomebody gives you a dirty look
, how long do you experience thepain of rejection before you
start justifying why that personshouldn't have done it or why
(14:17):
you are, why they should havedone it right, so that the pain
of rejection is a microsecond?
And then everything after thatis justifying.
It's our brain saying,explaining to us why it happened
.
So we can be okay with it.
The initial response, though,is a microsecond.
We probably have only less than24 hours worth of experiences in
(14:40):
our lives that the rest of ourlife we're spending avoiding
those experiences, walkingaround those experiences, and so
, for me, this is why it's socrucial to say how do we address
those experiences?
How do we get you in a safeenough spot to address those
experiences?
So when I'm working withsomebody and their money, I know
(15:00):
that how you use money hasnothing to do with money.
Money is an inanimate object.
It's no different than our cellphone or the computer or a
microphone, or our shoes or oursocks.
However, we are the ones whoorient ourselves to money, and
that's based on our perspectiveand our perception.
(15:20):
And so when I'm having aconversation with somebody about
their goals, their dreams, whatdo they believe is possible?
Why do they not track theirmoney?
Okay, if you ask somebody, whyare you not tracking your money?
Most of them had a traumaticexperience when they were three
to eight years old and they gotshamed for a bad report.
(15:41):
They did something that just itdidn't look good, and so it was
not safe to look at somethingwhere they screwed up.
And so you have to process that.
You have to help somebodyunderstand that you can't
progress unless we actually knowwhere you're at.
We have to be willing toidentify where we are before we
can move forward, and that'swhat I find.
(16:03):
There's two quotes here that Ithink when I first share them
with people.
The first reaction again, whichis because we are defensive,
the first reaction is to bedefensive to it and to blame our
problems on somebody else.
But um, if you think about it,you are exactly where you are,
because that's where you putyourself right.
(16:26):
People say, well, I didn'tchoose this.
I didn't choose to have a carhit me.
I didn't choose to have theabuse.
I didn't choose to whatever,and I'm not.
I'm not saying that the abusethat you've experienced is your
fault.
Okay, fault is different thanchoice, but for me, you didn't
actively not choose it right.
(16:49):
You were passively goingthrough life, and most people
don't actively not choose things.
They don't actively putthemselves in situations that
those are never going to happen.
They are putting themselves insituations that are just
whatever, and then, whenwhatever happens, chaos breeds
more chaos, and so the firstthing to recognize is you are
exactly where you are becausethat's what you've chosen, even
(17:12):
if choosing is.
When I say you've chosen, youmay have not chosen and so you
just ended up where you are, butnot choosing is still a choice
to not be intentional notchoosing is still a choice yeah,
it's a binary right.
you're either actively choosingsomething or you're actively not
choosing something like youdon't get to have it Like when
(17:33):
you deduce it down to like acomputer, it's ones and zeros,
it's A or B, it's not.
There's not like well, there'sthis gray area, the computer.
if you try and do gray area, itsays not working, broken, right,
there's no gray area either onor off, and so we're either
choosing or not choosing, andnot choosing is still the choice
of not choosing.
And so when we, when we, thinkabout life that way, it's like
(17:55):
the most damning thing we couldsay is you're exactly where you
are, your experiences areexactly as they are because of
choices you've made.
That doesn't mean everything'syour fault, but it's a result of
the choices you've made.
Like that's just the realities.
So, um, with that being said,though, it's also the most
hopeful thing in my mind thatcould be ever be said is, if I'm
(18:19):
exactly where I am because ofmy choices, then that means that
I have the power to choosesomething else.
Christina McKelvy (18:28):
You're giving them the permission to have
control over their own Rightright Exactly, and most people
they don't want control.
Sam Knickerbocker (18:35):
It's so much easier to be a victim of your
circumstances.
It's so much easier to say well, my mom did this, my dad did
this, I had no, I had no chance,I was born in the wrong house,
I was born in the wrong zip code, I was born in the wrong body,
I was born in what like?
It's so much easier to blameyour problems on somebody else
and I'm not saying thatanybody's at fault but at some
(18:58):
point we have to recognize thatwe have the ability to make a
different choice.
And once we accept that, thatresponsibility in our life, that
we actually have the ability tochoose, then the life, then
life and the world becomes yourblank canvas and you can create
whatever you want.
(19:19):
You can build whatever you want.
You can build your dream life.
It doesn't matter how low of astatus you came from.
You can build your dream lifeand that's been proven over and
over and over and over and overin our world.
Yet it's still easier to say no, it's somebody else's fault.
They had extra help.
Helen Keller didn't have a lotof extra help.
(19:39):
She couldn't see, she couldn'ttalk, like there was so many
things that she had down, butshe still made it possible and
there's tons and tons of storiesabout that like that in our
world.
So that would be like my beliefis and how I help clients is
I'm processing not just howtheir money is.
Their money is more of aphysical representation of where
(20:02):
they're at emotionally, wherethey're at spiritually and where
they're at in a belief andconfidence perspective.
Christina McKelvy (20:27):
Curious what that was like for you when you
because I'm assuming that youhad that defining moment where
you're like, oh, I can make achoice, I can have that control.
What was that like for you whenyou first realized that?
Um?
Sam Knickerbocker (20:39):
I think it's something that continues to go.
I think the first time that Ifeel like I was very aware of
the metacognition nature of that, I because of the enforcer to
become the person who replacedmy mom's enforcement.
Because growing up, my mom wasthe enforcer, she made sure
(21:22):
everything got done.
Because in my, in growing up,my mom was the enforcer, she
made sure everything got done.
Well, I learned at a youngerage that if I didn't want to get
beat, then I needed to makesure everything got done, and so
then I kind of was part of thethe abused class in our house
and then I switched sides justout of self-preservation and I
(21:43):
became the person who was theenforcer.
So, yes, not everybody didn'tget in trouble by my mom as much
, but now I was the one gettingin trouble and as as a part of
that again I was like 12, 13years old.
As a part of that, I kind ofbecame a little dictator in our
house to the point that people,my siblings, if I even walked in
(22:05):
the room, they were scared,right, just as I was scared when
I walked, when we, when my momwalked in the room, you know.
So it's like uncertain, youdon't know what's going to
happen.
They're off the handle.
So the I had become that role.
I didn't realize it because Ihad kind of a savior complex
where I'm like I'm doing this toprotect you from this other
pain, right.
So I thought I was helping mysiblings.
(22:26):
They didn't interpret it thatway, which is fine, I totally
get their perspective now.
So.
So that was all going throughand then what happened was I was
enforcing my will on one of mywell, actually, my brother
that's just older than me, andone of my brothers that's two or
three people older than me.
He had come home from collegeand he was witnessing what was
(22:47):
happening and he's like, yeah,this is not going to happen
anymore.
So he came, he wrestled me downto the ground, like pin me to
the ground and the walls areblue, blue carpet to the
restrain me to the point where Ireally couldn't move.
I mean, I could talk but Icouldn't move physically.
And he held me there for awhile and I was confused.
(23:08):
I was honestly confused.
I was like I'm trying to helpyou.
Why are you not like?
Why are you so upset that I'mtrying to help you guys?
And he said, sam, like, this ishow people feel.
They feel this restrictedemotionally when you walk into a
room.
And I was like what?
Because, again, it's completelycounter to what I believed
(23:29):
about myself.
My self-concept was that I wasserving, but the reality was
that other people wereexperiencing me differently, and
so once I realized that thatwas the outcome in my
relationship with my family,then I was like oh, that's not
what I meant at all.
I mean, for me it felt like ithappened overnight.
(23:53):
I'm sure it didn't, I'm sure Iwas still a little annoying 12,
13-year-old kid, right, and I'mnot perfect by any stretch of
the imagination, by any stretchof the imagination.
But in my mind I switchedpretty quickly into I'm not
going to ask somebody in myfamily to do something unless it
absolutely needs to be done andI would let them know hey, you
(24:14):
can tell me, no, I'm not goingto force you to do it, you can
say no.
If you say no, then I'm goingto go do it immediately.
Right, to demonstrate.
I'm asked, I am being adirector of things in the
household.
I am asking you to do thingsonly because I'm not asking you
to do stuff that I've won I'mnot willing to do myself and two
, that don't need to be done.
(24:34):
So if you tell me no, then I'mgoing to go do it right away so
that you see that this needs tobe done.
Right, it's not like Sam's justtrying to have control.
I don't care about control, Icare about not getting spanked.
That's what I care about.
So, like, how do we do that?
So, um, after about three orfour months of of changing my
(24:58):
methodology, then that's reallywhen, um, my family started
responding differently.
They were much uh all mysiblings at least much more
willing to help.
They wanted to help.
They would ask, hey, what can Ido?
How can I help?
And so I think that was thefirst time that I really
recognized that my behavior umled me to where I was and that I
(25:23):
needed to change myself.
Not my circumstances around me,but I needed to change myself.
And that was a big awakeningthat, like I put myself in this
situation and also I can createa different situation with more
intention.
Christina McKelvy (25:41):
So with more intention.
So, okay, it sounds like alsothat you had a lot of
responsibility.
You know you're talking about.
You know wanting your siblingsto do these tasks, and you were
13.
You know that you took over therole of your mom in a way.
Sam Knickerbocker (25:59):
I think that I don't know that.
I guess it depends on yourdefinition of had a lot of
responsibility.
I think I claimed a lot ofaccountability and I would
consider that different.
So in my mind, again this goesback to kind of maybe my concept
of whether I'm a victim or notand again, this is Sam's words,
(26:21):
so you can go look it up in yourown dictionary and determine
what you believe or not.
But if you invert the wordsresponsibility to the ability to
respond, or accountability orthe ability to account, then you
really start to think aboutlife differently, right?
Because if you have the abilityto respond, response requires
(26:43):
stimulus, and so if you're stuckin a state of responsibility,
then in my mind you're juststuck in a perpetual victimhood.
You're stuck being a victim ofwhat somebody else and some
people say well, it's not avictim, they're helping me,
whatever you want to call it,dude, I don't care, but in my
mind you're not proactive.
(27:08):
If you are responsive, you'renot proactive.
That doesn't mean that beingresponsive is bad.
I'm not demonizing orvillainizing being responsive,
but thinking that responsive isa extremely positive creative
trait I don't agree with.
I think that if you'reresponsive to your environment
trait I don't agree with.
I think that if you'reresponsive to your environment,
then you're probably just avictim to your environment,
unless you recognize theenvironment's acting a certain
(27:30):
way, and then you areaccountable to the feedback.
You're accountable to thereactions and then you create
something else.
But if you're not activelycreating and accounting for the
feedback, then you're just avictim of your circumstances.
So if you're spending yourwhole life avoiding debt, or
you're spending your whole lifeavoiding making money or
avoiding work or avoiding badrelationships or whatever,
(27:52):
you're just spending your lifein an avoidance mechanism and
cycle and that's just victimhoodand everything's going to be
somebody else's fault.
Because anytime somethingdoesn't work out, then you avoid
rather than identify, inspect,find out what didn't work out
the way you want it to, and thenactively create and account for
(28:13):
the discrepancy and then moveforward towards your creation.
And so that's why I wouldn'tconsider myself having a lot of
responsibility as much as Ichose to be, because I have 11
siblings right, nobody else inthe house.
When my mom would beat us, wewould all still do what we
needed to do.
(28:34):
So that's like we can all beresponsible, but being
accountable, who's going tochoose to start accounting for
these variables and say okay,how do we minimize the impact of
these variables?
They're there, we can't like.
We live here, it is what it is.
Okay, how do we, how do weminimize the impact of these
unknown variables and startaccounting for that?
(28:57):
Like, you don't know how muchyou're going to spend on gas
every month, but you can have abudget for how much you're going
to spend on gas every month.
But you can have a budget forhow much you're going to spend
and start tracking it.
So you have an idea.
Okay, I never spend more than$95 a month on gas.
Great, now we know that we needto at least put away $95 a
month for gas.
Now, if you only spend 81months, that's a win.
But if you go spend 150 andyour budget's 90, that's not
(29:21):
going to add up at the end ofthe day.
And you got to adjust.
You got to start telling yourfriends that you can't go out.
You got to start doing thingsdifferently, because you can't
overspend that way forever.
And it's the same way with youremotions and your, your
relationships.
You can't overspend in youremotions and your relationships
forever.
You're going to break and it'snot going to last.
Like, you have to beaccountable to your reality at
some point at least I believeyou do and so I do believe that
(29:44):
I claimed a lot ofaccountability, um, for my life
at a young age, um, and I don'tknow if that was like my parents
had a very specific goal whenthey got when, when they started
having kids.
And it was that we would be bythe age of 14, be independent
(30:07):
enough that if they had, if theydied or something, we'd be able
to take care of ourselves andprovide value and work in the
economy.
And so there was highexpectations of us and they did
a very good job at raising 11children with that mentality and
that high work ethic.
And so when I was 11 and Iactually started working
(30:27):
full-time at a honey extractingplant when I was 11 years old
and so and it wasn't like myparents forced me to do it they
gave me an option.
I said you can keep doinghomework, because we were
homeschooled, or you can go geta full-time job.
And I was like I hate doinghomework, that's the last thing
(30:47):
in the world I want to do.
So I went and got a full-timejob but, like at that age, I was
given choice and I chose tomake choices, um, based on what
I wanted rather than whatprobably my parents would have
preferred, but who knows?
I mean I think they wanted meto be successful either way.
Christina McKelvy (31:00):
So I think this might be a good transition,
(31:23):
real quick, into talking aboutwhat legacy means to you.
You know, and you know whythat's such an important topic
for you that you share withothers.
You know about creating theirlegacy.
Sam Knickerbocker (31:30):
Yeah.
So I think it stems from maybeall stems from really my core
belief that I'm a creator andthat my, my purpose on this
earth is to to use whatevergifts and talents I was, uh,
given to create something like.
So that's like my core,foundational belief that the
next on top of that would bethat I believe that everybody
(31:53):
not just me, like I'm not someGod or anything, but everybody
deserves to be remembered, likewe all have some gift in our
life.
That if we were really to shedthe fear and insecurity of what
other people think about us andthe addiction to the approval of
others, if we were able to shedthat and live in who we feel we
were meant to be, I believethat there's so many hidden
(32:16):
gifts and talents that are worthbeing remembered.
And so, as a result of worthbeing remembered, I think your
legacy is how you are remembered.
Now some people they aren'tremembered because they didn't
do anything of consequence,right?
So that's also your legacy is,you didn't get remembered.
But something you mentioned atthe very beginning of the
podcast is in the Westerncultures it's very much here now
(32:41):
immediacy, immediategratification, what can we next?
And in Eastern cultures they'vereally done a very good job at
sharing, whether it's genealogyor understanding the history of
a country or the history of afamily.
And, hey look, we have certaincore values that have been here
since 2000 years ago and it'sstill important that you do that
(33:04):
.
And it's there's this honor tothe bigger vision, there's this
honor to the legacy or thedynasty of a family or a country
or a community more thanoneself, and they they very much
so in the Eastern cultures arenot focused on self, but focused
(33:25):
on the overall story.
Christina McKelvy (33:27):
The collective.
Sam Knickerbocker (33:28):
Yeah, the collective, and I think that we
can all benefit from that, notto lose our individuality or say
, well, it doesn't matter,because I'm just a little blip
on the storyline of this.
But what if you were toprogress the legacy that has
been handed down already, likelearn about your grandparents,
learn about your parents, learnabout why they did what they did
(33:50):
, find what you want to be athrough path for and carry that
on Like.
I love the fact, uh, even allthe things that happened in my
childhood.
I'm so grateful for all of mychildhood the goods, the goods,
the bads, everything.
I'm grateful that it producedme.
I'm grateful that they caredenough to help me learn to read,
write, do math.
(34:10):
I'm grateful that they caredenough to learn to teach me how
to work hard and character, behonest, have integrity, do the
things you say you're going todo, and so passing those on to
the next generation.
I love for it not to start withme and not to end with me, but
for it to be a through line.
Of like, when I meet aknickerbocker, this is what
(34:31):
their experience of aknickerbocker is whether it's my
parents, whether it's me, orwhether it's my children or my
grandparents, it's all like man.
I remember meeting aknickerbocker.
They were the hardest working,honest, direct, upfront people
I've ever met with.
We need more of them workingwith us.
So now there's this duty to thefamily name of what you're
(34:53):
going to be, who you're going tobe.
There's a duty to the legacy,and it happens in corporate
culture all the time.
Where a CEO comes into Disneyor comes into Chase Bank or
comes into A1 Garage, it doesn'tmatter, right?
They come into these companiesand they have to be able to
manage and further the missionof the company over furthering
(35:18):
their own personal mission.
They can get accolades whilethey're there and that's why
they're hired, but we reallywant them to further the company
, the brand and most of thebiggest companies you know today
.
You see them in the grocerystores, you see them on cars,
everything.
They're all the last names ofpeople.
Christina McKelvy (35:36):
That's true, yeah.
Sam Knickerbocker (35:38):
And so when you think about that, it's like
man, what am I building with mylast name?
What am I building that's goingto be around because of what
somebody stood for.
And so that's where I thinkyou're worth being remembered,
Not necessarily how much moneyyou made or what you did with
the money or any of that.
I mean.
Sure, I think we all could bewealthier and I support that and
(36:01):
I'd encourage that.
Christina McKelvy (36:02):
Go get as much money as you can.
Sam Knickerbocker (36:04):
Don't be poor , right?
I'm not saying that, but theonly reason to get money is to
do something positive with itand to make a change.
So how are you going to beremembered?
So that's really where I wouldput legacy at.
Christina McKelvy (36:18):
How are you going to be remembered?
Yeah, I like what you mentioned.
What am I building with my lastname?
That's pretty powerful there.
Well, you know, sam, I feelthat you know hope, like you
mentioned earlier.
That hope, it's very hopeful to.
(36:40):
I wrote it down.
I don't even know where I putit, but you know there's a lot
of hope in what you're teachingothers about legacy, about
having that foundation.
So I'm going to turn it back toyou as and I asked this
question to everybody that's onmy show what gives you hope,
what brings you hope?
Sam Knickerbocker (36:56):
Yeah.
So for me, the thing that givesme hope is the first.
It's Jesus Christ.
Right, for me.
I'm I'm a believer in JesusChrist and I believe that his
example uh had the ability toteach the world that we can
create our own path, that we canum overcome all of our things,
(37:19):
our inadequacies, all the thingsthat we believe are um the
things that hold us back, thatwe don't have to allow those to
hold us back, that we canemotionally, spiritually,
physically shed those um thingsand um move forward and not let
them drag us down.
So that would be my first thingis like Jesus Christ gives me
(37:43):
hope.
Second thing would just be myown personal experiences of
being a creator.
I've experienced creationenough that I am hopeful that I
will continue to be able tolearn to create bigger and
better, more meaningful, helpful, world-serving things.
(38:05):
As I progress in my mastery ofcreation and because I see other
people doing it, then I think,like, for me, that gives me hope
.
I will eventually figure it out.
I'm not perfect at this.
I would say I have anunderstanding of it, but I
certainly am not like a masterof it yet.
I understand basically how acar works, but I don't know how
(38:28):
to create a car you know.
So it's like there's thedifference between understanding
something and being having itbecome your habitual routine to
be implementing and so.
But it gives me hope to seeother people succeed, because
that means I can also succeed.
I don't have to be stuck in mytrauma.
I don't have to be stuck in mypast, because if one person can
(38:51):
get past it, then I choose tobelieve that everybody can get
past it if one person can getpast it, everyone can.
Christina McKelvy (39:02):
Yeah, and it's really inspiring seeing
other people succeed too.
Sam Knickerbocker (39:07):
It can be really motivating right, like in
my book, the nine pillars tobuild a meaningful legacy.
In that book, the first two,like, there's basically nine
reasons why somebody would dosomething, or nine demographics
of people that your examplecould set a good example for,
and the first one is for yourhaters.
(39:30):
Right, the first reason in mymind to go do go build a legacy
is for your haters, because yourhaters are people generally
that don't believe anybody cando it.
Most of the haters aren'tpeople who believe that they
could do it and you can't.
Most of the haters are peoplewho don't believe that your
(39:50):
goals are even possible, thatyour dreams can be achieved.
They just don't believe anybodycan do it.
And so you going and winning.
Actually, it's like you walkingaround that leaf, it's you
showing them the path of okay,it's possible.
Okay, it's possible.
That's the cool part it'spossible.
So the first reason I think foryou to go build a meaningful
legacy is to demonstrate to thepeople around you who have lost
(40:13):
hope that it's possible.
That's the first reason.
The second reason and thisdemographic is almost more
dangerous to themselves than thehaters the haters are very,
again, when we're talking aboutthe fear and then the anger and
then the violence.
Where does that go?
The first haters that vitriol,that anger is going outward.
(40:35):
They're the ones trying to tearyou down.
Those are the crabs that aretrying to keep you in the barrel
.
But the second group is yourbelievers, all the people who
are going to cheer you on thesidelines.
They're going to be excited foryou.
They're going to believe thatyou can do it, but not me.
Christina McKelvy (40:50):
Okay.
Sam Knickerbocker (40:51):
And that's even worse because those people,
they believe that it can bedone, but they've resigned
themselves to not chasing theirdreams.
They've said, oh, you can getyour dreams, but I can't.
And this is what most parentsteach their children I've got to
go work, a job, but you candream about being whatever you
want.
And Ed Milet he says this isprobably one of the biggest
(41:12):
forms of child abuse in ourcountry is parents not going for
their dreams, because it'steaching the next child, the
next generation.
You shouldn't go for yourdreams either.
And then we lose innovation as acountry, we lose innovation as
a world, because we have tons ofpeople resigning themselves,
(41:32):
selling out and saying I don'thave hope anymore, I'm just
going to exist until I die.
Hopefully it's like man.
Life doesn't have to be thatmiserable.
Life is exciting.
There's so many cool things outthere, and so those are the
first two reasons why I believeit's it's our duty to build a
meaningful legacy first to be anexample and give hope to the
(41:53):
haters, and then also to be anexample to the believers who
have chosen out of creating.
And so, um, if we can keepfocused on that, I think we've
got a great track record aheadof us.
Christina McKelvy (42:06):
And you mentioned that is in your book.
What's the title of your book?
Sam Knickerbocker (42:11):
Fuel your Legacy the Nine Pillars to Build
a Meaningful Legacy and you canget it on Amazon or on my
website, samknickerbachercom.
Christina McKelvy (42:20):
And where else can our audience find you?
Sam Knicker (42:23):
samknickerbockercom you can find me and I have
links to all my social medias.
My podcast, the Fuel, yourLegacy show.
That podcast is really focusedon interviewing people and
learning about what questionsdid they ask themselves that
drove them to their success inany area?
Maybe they asked themselves aquestion and they became a
successful mother, successfulfather, a successful husband,
(42:45):
successful wife, like, successis not defined financially.
For me, it's just like what didyou set a goal out?
You asked yourself a question,you decided where you were
headed as a result of the answerto that question and you went
and got it.
Like that's success to me, um,and so it just goes to anybody,
and there's lots of differentpeople on there, lots of
different characters, but I loveinterviewing people and so
(43:09):
that's.
There's a link on there on mywebsite, samknickerbachercom,
and then all my socials arelinked to samknickerbachercom as
well.
Christina McKelvy (43:18):
Thank you, and we'll all have those in the
show notes, you know, for peopleto access easily.
Well, sam, it was a pleasureinterviewing you and learning
about your story and what andhow it shaped you.
You know how it shaped whereyou are today and you know
choosing to educate people about.
You know how to have a powerfullegacy, and I said build for
(43:39):
your haters I love that, youknow and also for your believers
.
So, thank you so much for beinghere and, yeah, I just continue
to hope that you have awonderful legacy yourself.
Sam Knickerbocker (43:50):
Yeah, awesome , hey.
Thank you so much, christina.
I'm grateful that I was able tohop on here and add value to
those who listen.
Christina McKelvy (43:56):
Thank you.
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