December 20, 2024 • 47 mins
Hosts Sophia Champieux and Scott Kuhlman introduce listeners to the Hot Pursuit podcast, a show that takes listeners behind the scenes of fire-related true crime cases of the Orange County Fire Authority Investigations Division. Fire Investigator Bill Strohm joins the hosts to explain how he became involved in the case and how he and other investigators initially believed the first three fires to be unrelated. Before the investigators could develop any solid leads, however, they received a report of an arson spree in progress along State Route 73. Upon arriving at the scene, investigators learned that three separate fires had been set in three different jurisdictions. Listen along to hear if the case ends in arrest.
A quick note for listeners, throughout this episode we refer to the "Behavioral Health Unit" with the FBI. We misspoke, the correct term is "FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU)."
Key Terms:
Adjudicated: A case that has been closed in the court system
Arson Spree: Three or more fires set by the same person in a short time frame
Confirmation Bias: The tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions
Honeycomb: A term used to describe the appearance of the internal components of a catalytic converter that has failed and ejected debris onto the roadway
Hot Start: An open flame ignition, like the flame from a lighter, match, torch, or road flare
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, listeners, on today's podcast we have a story
of multiple fires that occuralong Highway 73 in October of
2021.
Investigators discover multipledelayed devices along the side
of the road with the intentionof starting wildland fires.
Follow along as multipleagencies from state to federal
(00:22):
join us in attempting to solvethis case and identifying who it
is and how to capture them.
This is Hot Pursuit.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Stories from the fire investigation's front line.
This was a type ofunpredictable weather event the
Orange County Fire Authority hadtrained for.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Firefighters responded to the 2200 block of
South Susan Street.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
The report of a commercial structure fire.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Fire investigators are still working on their full
report about the cause of thefire.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Investigators need to pick through the debris and
answer important questions likehow did the fire start?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
The suspect was arrested and charged with four
counts of arson, as well asreckless endangerment.
Welcome to Hot Pursuit, thepodcast where we dive into the
mysteries and investigations offire-related true crime cases of
the Orange County FireAuthority Investigations
Division.
I'm Sophia Champeau.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
And I am OCFA Fire Captain and Fire Investigator
Scott Kuhlman, and togetherwe'll take you behind the scenes
of some of Orange County's mostfascinating and often chilling
fire investigations, from arsonto accidental fires.
We'll explore the evidence, thesuspects and the untold stories
that emerge from the ashes.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Every episode will bring you a new case, breaking
down the events that led to thefire, and talk to the experts,
including fire investigators,law enforcement and forensic
specialists, to give you aninside look at how these cases
are solved.
Just like you, I'll be hearingthese stories for the first time
, so sit back, relax and join usas we uncover the hidden truths
behind some of Orange County'smost intriguing fire
investigations.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
This is Hot.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Pursuit.
Good morning Scott.
I can't believe we're finallyhere.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I know.
Good morning Sophia.
This is, I guess, what we'recalling.
It's serendipitous.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I would agree for sure.
What we're calling it'sserendipitous, I would agree for
sure.
This has been a passion projectof mine, for sure, and I'm so
happy that you were able to jumpon this podcast journey with me
and I convinced you to talk notonly about investigations,
which is always hard to talkabout with investigators, but
also the great work that youguys do on these cases and how
(02:23):
lucky we are as Orange Countycitizens to be not only
protected but looked out for byour awesome investigators.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
That's very nice of you to say that and I appreciate
you spotlighting some of thecases that we have.
But before we get into that,let's tell the listeners like
how we even how this evenoccurred.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yes, Just the randomness of it, the true
serendipitousness, yeah, that'sthe word of it yeah, do you want
to start?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I'll start with how I came in and met to you.
Okay, so I remember it was ahot day, I just collected
evidence and so we have to dropoff our evidence.
Here at headquarters.
We have a secure facility.
I was hot, I secure facility, Iwas hot.
I still had like soot on me.
I was probably not smelling thebest, yeah, and so I was going
(03:14):
back to our main office and thenI was going to head to head or
back to the station to shower upand I see you.
And then I've been wanting toget in contact with you because
you were just killing it on thesocial media and I had a bunch
of questions.
I'm like, man, this, she reallygot this down.
And so I run into you.
I'm like, uh, hey, sophia ScottColeman.
You're like, yeah, how's itgoing?
And so we started talking andI'm like, hey, I need some help
(03:38):
with this.
And I'm looking at marketing.
And we started talking aboutpodcasts and you did some.
I don't know if you realize youdid it.
I'm like, yeah, I'm involved inthis pocket.
And you kind of like did anElaine from Jerry Seinfeld?
You're like get out.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
You've kind of pushed me and you're like I couldn't
believe it An investigatortalking to me about wanting to
talk about his cases.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
That's like well then you're like I just left a
meeting five minutes ago, so youtake it from there.
That's how I remember it.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay, so, yes, so I have.
There's a certain day a week Ialways have my one-on-ones with
my boss, and part of my job isto be proactive in our
strategies and reaching ourcommunities and things like that
, and so I had been toyingaround with this idea of a
podcast before, and so Iactually that morning had
pitched it to my boss and heloved the idea, and so in my
(04:23):
little brain I was going athousand miles a minute.
Okay, now I got to get buy-infor this and I got to find
someone who wants to do it withme and all the things that start
going through someone's brain.
And I was just crossing thestreet, walking something over
to purchasing, and all of asudden I hear, hey, are you the
social media girl?
And I was like this is going togo one of two ways.
He's either going to be soexcited, or he?
(04:45):
has something to talk to meabout that he's not excited
about.
And then, yes, I do remember westarted talking about podcasts
and just our different ideas onhow to best promote the agency,
and the fact that you wanted todo this with me was awesome, and
I think that day, even like anhour later, we were already on
the phone brainstormingdifferent cases and who we could
have on the show.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So definitely serendipitous.
Yeah, it was good timingbecause the investigator that
we're bringing on in our I guesspilot episode.
He has done a lot of good casesrecently, but there's one that
I wanted to make aware that tooka lot of work, a lot of time,
wanted to get it celebrated andwhat a great avenue for the
citizens to understand whatservices we provide and how we
(05:27):
go about solving some of thesereally intense cases.
But can you explain to thelisteners?
So what's the format?
How do we want to do this?
What can they expect?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Absolutely so.
When I came to OCFA and this isa little bit relevant too for
the podcast is I actually camefrom a law enforcement
background.
I'm doing very similarcommunications, pr, social media
and I always found it sointeresting the behind the
scenes that people don't get tosee every day, and that's really
what I wanted to show them onsocial media.
(06:01):
And so when we were talking,when I came to OCFA and I saw,
oh wow, we actually have our owninvestigators, I thought that
was in and of itself cool.
And then I thought and then Ifound out that not only are you
guys full fledged firefightersthat go through the academy and,
you know, do your rotation,startup as a rookie, everything.
And not only are you a fullfledged firefighter, you are
full-fledged cop, you guys carryguns, you guys do these
(06:25):
full-fledged investigations, yougo out and teach fire
investigations.
And I thought this is such anincredible way to share with our
communities all of the hardwork that you guys do and
something that they probablydon't even know exists, because
I didn't know exists and I wasalready in this world, so I
really love that you're on boardwith the opportunity of not
only showcasing the hard workbut the cases of our mutual aid
(06:48):
cases to our partners in lawenforcement, our partners at the
district attorney's officefederally state all of them, and
so I think this is a very, veryinteresting way to look behind
the scenes at all of everythingand the hard work that you guys
do.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So well, thank you for that.
And then you don't know thatI'm going to say this, but it's
funny because I was made awareof you.
We were on some large incidentin just before you came over,
but it was told to us thatthey've hired a new social media
, and so I'm sitting there withlaw enforcement the local
(07:20):
sheriff, specifically, and yourboss was in front of me and we'd
been sitting there for, yeah,and I can't remember the
incident now, but we were.
It was an all day thing.
I think there was somepotential riot or something that
was going to occur, and so shewas very nice and I'm like, hey,
can I get you some drinks?
And she's like, oh, okay.
And she goes hey, actually I gotto let you know, you have one
of our best social media.
(07:41):
People come out.
I'm like, oh really, she goes,yeah, she's starting.
We're so sad to lose her.
And then I've seen your worksince then and I'm like, well,
you're actually really good atit.
So I'm like that's cool that wegot you.
But for the listener, how wasthis format set up as far as
what's my role and your role,and what can they expect to hear
(08:03):
as far as how these cases willunfold?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
How are we approaching this?
So we're approaching it the wayto help our audience best
understand it and absorb it.
So I'm coming into these casescompletely blind, as our
audience is.
So, really, I'm going to helpmake sure you guys remember to
say what the acronyms mean andexplain the cases and kind of
ask just like layman questions,stuff that you guys find day to
(08:31):
day but that we find in ournormal day to day life very
fascinating.
So each of our cases are goingto be specific to the Orange
County communities.
We're going to do a lot ofcases, obviously, here that
we've investigated with ourinvestigators at OCFA, but we're
also hope to bring on some ofour mutual aid cases as well and
highlight the good work and thepartnership that we've done in
the community.
We're so excited that we'regoing to have 10 episodes for
(08:53):
our Orange County communities tolisten to and we're actually
going to end with an episodethat we're asking our
communities help with.
It is not an adjudicated caseso it is not solved yet.
We actually have some greatevidence that we get to share
with you guys too to help usfind this person.
So we hope that you followalong, you listen along with us
on this journey.
We're hoping to release one newepisode every other week for
(09:15):
the next couple months and thenwe'll get to that last one where
we really need your guys' help.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And as an active investigator in this section
here at the Orange County FireAuthority.
We really do need your help.
We're going to give you somegood information at the final
episode.
We do have phone lines setaside just for this incident.
So if you continue to listen on, you understand how we start to
work these cases.
We hope that as a communityeffort and as we work for you
(09:40):
but sometimes some of our bestpartners are you, our citizens
If we can work together for thiscase, it would mean a lot to us
and certain people in thecommunity.
It'll make more as we gettowards the 10th episode, but
that's really what we're workingtowards at the end, so we hope
you follow along.
There'll be a compelling 10episodes.
You'll learn a little bit aboutwhat we do and what your local
investigators do and who we workwith.
(10:01):
So I'm excited.
Let's get this going.
Let's go.
So let's start off with what'sadjudicated mean.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
That's a great yes.
Adjudicated just means that itis essentially the case has been
closed in the court system.
So we've gone through all thetestimonies have been read, the
jury has determined guilt or notguilt, and it's they've been,
and they're either in jail orthey're not in jail.
So essentially the case isclosed.
(10:28):
So that allows ourinvestigators to share a lot
more details on the case thatthey don't normally do or that
they can't really when they'reinvestigating a case.
So this really gives us aunique opportunity to see the
details, the evidence, photos,all of that exciting stuff that
us true crime diehards love tosee.
And we will also be uploadingall of the materials on our
(10:51):
website so that everyone can notonly follow along while they're
listening, but catch up ifthey're binging us on the feed,
hopefully.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Okay.
Well, so for our first case,it's really funny that you said
our federal, our state, ourmutual aid, brothers and sisters
.
This case that's coming upinvolves basically everybody.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
These two yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
So I'm excited for this one.
I'm very proud of this case.
I'm proud of the investigationwork our section did, our
brothers and sisters at thestate level, federal level, and
it came to an unexpectedconclusion for us.
But that's the one we'll bediving in today.
It's so involved and there's alot of moving pieces that this
(11:40):
will be a two-parter.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I love two-parters.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
We're going to drag you and the listeners through
two episodes for this, but thepayoff at the end, when you find
out who it is and then how itcame to its finality, it'll be
worth it I can't wait to hear it.
Yes, so for this case.
So you know nothing about this?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
case.
Right, I don't, no, I'm goingin totally blind.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I know.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
And you're pretty excited I am.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I am a true crime junkie at heart.
So Shambini Ramsey, scottPeterson, let's talk about it.
So she's literally levitatingoff her chair right now, so I
can't help it.
I'm just going to give you likea quick synopsis and I'll leave
it to the investigator to comein and tell his investigation
and when it went and I'll kindof guide you.
But it's all started aroundOctober 2021.
It's along the corridor calledthe 73.
(12:31):
We had multiple little fires inand around that area, which led
to us really focusing on aspecific area and throughout the
investigation, you'll just besurprised at what we found and
what occurred and how thisinvestigator and our brothers
and sisters from both thefederal level and state level
(12:54):
worked to bring this case to aconclusion.
Now, just for those who don'tknow, the 73 is a high, like
wild land area, has a lot ofpotential to take off.
So we take every fire serious,but when we notice these kinds,
we get very worried because itcan take out a whole community
in a matter of an hour.
So, saying that, I want tointroduce you to Investigator
(13:16):
Bill Strom, with the OrangeCounty Fire Authority.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Welcome.
We're so excited to have you.
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Hi, good morning.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So, bill, I know this .
We worked with a lot of peopleon this case, yes, but you were
the lead investigator on ourside.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Correct, so Can we talk about.
Can you lead us in to how weeven discovered, or when we
started to recognize, some kindof pattern or issue in this
specific area?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, so early in the week before I went on days off,
we had a fire on the Ortega.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And it came back from the investigators that were on
scene that was undetermined andthey weren't able to rule out
some unintentional causes but aswell as arson, and that was
noted and didn't pay a whole lotof attention to that, because
fires happen from time to timeand that's that's our business.
But prior to that, on a Sundayfollowing that week, we had
(14:19):
another fire fire that kickedoff on the Ortega and so that
was kind of pinging on our radaris that we had three in a very,
very close area.
So as a day investigator myjob's a little different, where
I handle the criminal follow-upand I handle cases that are
going to extend.
The investigation is going toextend past a day or two.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But I should probably clarify for our listeners that
our section.
So I'm what's considered ashift investigator, meaning I
work the 24-hour shift.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Okay, much like our PIOs, like A, b, c shift,
correct, okay?
Speaker 1 (14:54):
perfect, so I'll do 48 hours on, and then we have
our days off.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
For our shift work here at OCFA for operations
folks.
They have two days on, fourdays off, and so it ends up
being an A, B and C shift, andeach of those is two days in a
row.
I know I'm dumbing it down alittle bit there, but that's
essentially what it is.
And then we do have otheroperations folks who work other
hours, so that might be helpfulas well.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So the shift work which I do, we just respond and
we go from fire to fire, to fireto fire.
Now the reason I think theOrange County Fire Authority is
so successful with its bothdetermining an arson and then
conviction rate of arson isbecause we have Bill and other
day guys who, if I'm at a sceneand I need to pull video or I
(15:41):
need to interview somebody who'sjust not there at that time, I
write from the scene a follow-uprequest and then Bill goes out
and he'll continue any kind ofextended work which from the
previous agency Bill and I werewith.
We never enjoyed that, so wedidn't have a very high success
rate in any kind of eithercapture or conviction for arson.
(16:02):
We just didn't have that followup.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So yeah, the additional resources basically.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I think this day shift position is the reason our
section is so, so successful,and I noticed that a lot of
other agencies are looking at itas a wow, you do have a lot of
success rate.
Looking at it as a wow, you dohave a lot of success rates.
So that's his role and that'swhy we do.
That's why we're able to stayon these calls until it comes to
some kind of conclusion.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
So coming into work on on Monday morning we realized
that we kind of had three firesin a very tight area, that
that's happened over a course ofabout a week, since that fire
occurred on a Sunday coming inon a Monday decided to take some
liberties to drive out there.
(16:49):
So me and my day shift partnerdrove out there and we met the
two investigators that were onscene.
When we were on scene we kindof observed just kind of a
typical debris field vegetation.
The fire itself, the burn scaritself was no bigger than 10 by
10.
We seen that the fire couldhave potentially started from
(17:15):
the road and moved its way in.
But on the outskirts of thedebris pile, as we looked on the
outside, we were able to seethat there was what looked like
maybe potential road litter.
In that road litter there was acouple plastic bottles that had
some material stuffed in themand it looked like, maybe even
like, a potential device.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
And how about?
You said this was like right onthe edge of the side of the
road, or was it in a little bit?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
It was about 10 to 15 feet from the road.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Oh okay, it's like a good amount.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Yeah, and kind of hidden behind a big oak tree.
And this oak tree was distinctbecause it actually overhanged
the road so it looked like itwould be someplace that somebody
might want to pull over andtake a nap or get some shade or
maybe make their last cell phonecall before they lose reception
take a nap or get some shade ormaybe make their last cell
phone call before they losereception.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
If I can interject, that's an important part about
the reception too on the cellphone.
But I remember the previous twofires we thought so.
Sometimes, for use of it, we'llcall a fire undetermined,
meaning we can't conclusivelytell you how it started.
So some of the things and Iremember on these fires
specifically, they were close tothe roadside and there was a
place where all of them had somekind of road litter and we knew
(18:26):
there was human activity at oraround or near there so people
could discard a cigarette.
So we have to look at all these.
So the previous two fires Iremember we classed as
undetermined.
But arson or an intentionallyset fire was one of the ones we
couldn't exclude.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So it essentially keeps your options open should
you find out additionalinformation down the line that
would affect the investigation.
Basically, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So we're just looking , we're like, well, it looks
like there's smoking materialhere and it's close enough to
the road that if there's somekind of spark or Cadillac
converter incident even thoughwe didn't find clues of a
Cadillac converter failure fromyour car we'd look at everything
.
And so on the first two, we'relike we can't really find a
source, but I can't conclusivelyeliminate like a smoking
(19:09):
material, but also I can't findanother competent ignition
source, so we're going to haveto leave an intentionally set
fire on the table for these two.
Sure Not knowing there's apattern or anything coming right
.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Correct.
Yeah yeah, so you're on thethird fire now, and then you
find this road litter that atfirst you thought was nothing.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Right, yeah.
So we find this road litter andas we begin to look at this, my
partner's like kind of goingaround the edge and he's like,
yeah, it appears to be burned onthe end of this.
What we?
I'm going to just go ahead andcall it a device now.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Bill, could you describe that, what you're
seeing, the device, because Iknow we have a photo of it.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, so this is a.
It's very basic.
It's a Gatorade bottle withwhat appears to be a paper towel
on the end of it and the end ofthe paper towel has burning
around it, but there's nodegradation, there's no burning
that actually extends past thisbottle.
It's just a Gatorade bottlewith a burnt piece of paper.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And there's no liquid in it that you could see, and
there's zero liquid in itInteresting.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
So, anyways, we pull this apart and we decided to
take it as evidence.
So we go ahead and mark itappropriately and photograph it.
Mark it appropriately andphotograph it.
And as we begin to dissect this, as we pull this out, this
piece of paper that we look atas a paper towel is actually a
gauze wrapper.
It's just a paper wrapper thatyou would put a piece of sterile
(20:33):
gauze in and within that welooked on the opposite end of
that piece of paper, that gauzewrapper, and we were able to
identify that there wasdegradation on the other end of
it too.
So it looks like somebodyintentionally lit both ends of
this piece of paper and stuck itin this Gatorade bottle as a
potential device to start a fire.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Bill, can I jump in real quick?
Sure, absolutely so, just forSophia.
So when they first saw thebottle and the paper towels
coming out and it had firedamage on the end, that's
already laying in the inneraround the brush.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
We couldn't, we weren't sure that the fire
didn't burn up to that and burnthat end.
You know what I'm saying.
Oh, I see, but when we took thepaper out, as he described, and
then we saw burning on theinside, there's no way the fire
is going to jump.
So we knew somebodyintentionally set both ends.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Right, you couldn't OK.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So Bill's like oh well, this is different.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Sorry.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Bill.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Immediately piques your interest.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Correct and we're looking at this and we're like,
like Scott was saying, that thiswas on the outside of the fire
and this is potentially a devicethat may have been used to
start a fire.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
It also seems like adding that length of paper
gives them time to run away orlike, get away from Absolutely
Right the definition of a devicewould be to accelerate a fire
or delay the start of a fire.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Oh, ok, that's what people use it for, and in this
one, particularly because it wason the outside of what we call
the burn scar, particularlybecause it was on the outside of
what we call the burn scar, itwas a potential failed device
and that's of some interest.
And we're like looking at itand we're like pretty sure this
didn't communicate to the burnthat there was something else
(22:12):
that may have started this fire,but nevertheless this might
have been an attempt.
So we took this piece ofevidence and we processed it and
with the crime lab.
Anytime that we submit evidenceto the crime lab I mean
especially dealing with DNA wecould be up to four to five
months that's not uncommonbefore we get results on this.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And our crime lab.
From my understanding is, we'veactually cleared a lot of our
backlog as compared to otheragencies too, right?
So we're doing pretty good incomparison, aren't we?
Speaker 3 (22:42):
A hundred percent.
That's amazing.
Our crime lab does so shout outto them.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
They're doing the hard work.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
We actually enjoy a very good relationship with our
crime lab.
They come out and teach with us.
We bring students there and wewalk through the crime lab.
We have a very goodrelationship with our crime lab.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I've written along with one of their I'm not sure
the exact title, so I'm going tosay technician.
However, they were so gracious.
I learned so much, so shout outto them for sure.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Awesome, awesome.
So now we have this data thatwe've collected and we're
looking at this fire inparticular if not the other two
that we have, because we're atthree at this point as being
potentially related.
So I take this data back to ouroffice, I'm talking with my
(23:25):
partners and we're going throughthis and we start putting it on
a whiteboard, basically likeall the different scenarios that
we could be running across,kind of what we're thinking Is
this just a one-off, is thisjust somebody that made a bad
decision, that was having a badday, or is this going to be
something bigger down the road?
But we want to get ahead of it?
(23:47):
So we feel like we're in a goodplace having this evidence
processed.
And then we start going and Ipull the other two case files
and as I start going throughthese other two case files, I
notice some interesting thingsthat are interesting to me and
and um, some of the data that'sin these files it's talking
about how they're called in, youknow.
(24:07):
So we have 911 data and whatnot.
So the first, the first, veryfirst fire that was noted to us
was was actually right around um, the Halloween, halloween time
and um, I'm thinking, ah, maybethe Halloween time and I'm
thinking maybe kids you know,I'm not sure what's going on.
This was called in by apasserby and the fire never
(24:33):
really got that big 10 feet.
So this fire over here stillcould not really connecting them
right, this fire over here,even though the time frame's
short and they're in closeproximity of each other.
But this could be a completeone-off.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And what time of day were these calls coming in?
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Two o'clock.
That's a great question becauseas we go through this process,
all of them seem to bemid-afternoon to just before
dark.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Is that typically an uncommon time for someone to do
an arson, or is there anytypical arson?
I guess is the better question?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
In my experience, there is no.
I mean late at night typicallyCover of dark.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, no rhyme or reason.
Yeah, there's not.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
And then the Ortega is as we all know, those that
have driven it.
It's a major thoroughfarebetween Orange County and
Riverside, so people are goingup and over the Ortega all the
time.
So traffic builds up in themorning coming to work and at
the five o'clock hour going home, traffic kind of builds up
again, you know, and thenthere's parts that you lose cell
phone reception and there's,you know, people pull over to
(25:30):
make that last call before theygo over the hill, the last work
call, last call home, whatever,whatever the situation may be.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, for those at home, the 74 Ortega Highway is a
pretty rural area and a lot ofbrush, a lot of what?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
our firefighters or our operations.
People would consider fuel forthe fire Basically.
Just it's going to go fast ifit does light, and I can tell
you that I've been on a numberof fire-related roadside fires
there, but they were a result ofimproperly discarded smelting
material, specifically in acertain area there where
students would park on the sideand then they would throw away.
But these appeared to bedifferent at that time.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Correct, correct, yes .
And then the second fire thatwe were pinging on was also on a
Sunday.
What was interesting about thisone is this fire was reported
by a patrol, a fire patrol thatwas going up and down a brush
rig, that was going up and downthe Ortega, in between two fire
(26:29):
stations that are on the Ortega.
You kind of screech in theoffice because we're looking at
this device that we have, thatwe've pulled apart as we're
going through it.
It's gauze, but it's not thenormal gauze that you'd find at
(26:51):
a pharmacy or a conveniencestore.
This was the packaging on itwas specific to a major vendor,
a vendor that I've seen on callsthroughout my career, like a
healthcare vendor type, a vendorthat I've seen on calls
throughout my career.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Like a health care vendor type thing.
Well, absolutely that both EMTs, firefighters.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
So specific individuals have access to.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
First responders use.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Okay, yes, and the eerie part about the Gatorade
bottle was it's very typical towhat we would see on a brush
fire that we use to rehab, thatwe use to rehab, so this being
called in by a brush rig andwe're running across some
medical supplies that aretypical to what we have in any
one of our trauma bags and someother road debris that's on the
road.
Some other debris that's on theroad far as you know sound
(27:33):
trappers and hamburger cartonsand stuff like that Kind of you
know.
You know it looks like the one.
actually one of my partners saidthis looks like the front seat
of of any fire engine on astrike team oh no, and your
spidey sensors are going off,spidey senses are going off and
we realize that we may have anissue, because now we have three
of these fires that are thatare pretty close and then we're
(27:55):
finding we're finding it beingcalled in by a first responder
not through through 9-1-1.
And we're kind of circling thewagons a little bit and trying
to so just to be clear, Bill,who moved into your potential
suspect?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
that needed to be eliminated file.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Right.
So obviously we looked at thecrew that was responding that
day, the crew that called it in.
We started backtracking our 911callers and the suspect pool
was big and broad.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
So basically, our.
Emts, firefighters, we justentered your suspect pool.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
That's correct.
Dun dun dun.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Yeah, that's correct On a small yes.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Your Gatorade gave it away.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
No, I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding, I'm just
kidding.
Not necessarily as broad as abig paintbrush stroke, but it
was definitely the people thatwere around that day were being
considered.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
So the thing with that is that as our unit, our
section investigation sectionhere in OCFA and that's, we have
to protect some of theinformation.
And because there was becomingpeak interest and like, well,
what's going on on that Ortega,we can't really talk about that
because we don't know,especially if it's refining
(29:13):
material that's consistent withfirst responders and the way
it's getting called in, andwe're like, hey, because
everybody knows everybody andeverybody talks.
So we had to keep it quiet.
It was so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah Well, that's hard and it's almost.
Is it harder having thatinformation?
Speaker 3 (29:30):
and not being able to share it.
Yes, I'd rather not know, or isit?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
harder to not know the information.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yes, I'd rather not.
I wish you wouldn't have toldme.
But anyway, go ahead, bill, I'msorry.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Some of the other pieces of our investigation that
we started was we liaison withIrvine PD and the Sheriff's
Department and we have a reallygood working relationship with
both Orange County Sheriffs andIrvine PD and we started pulling
LPR information the licenseplate readers.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Okay, I was just about to ask what's an.
Lpr.
Oh, so we started for thosetime frames of these fires.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
So we started collecting the data on these
plates, the license platereaders Okay, I was just about
to ask what's an LPR.
So we started for thosetimeframes of these fires.
So we started collecting thedata on these plates.
But, as I said earlier, we havea lot of traffic coming up and
down the Ortega, so trying tofind a match where we could have
the same vehicle in the area atthe same time became quite a
challenge.
Additionally to that, afterthese fires were identified to
(30:27):
be kind of linked and I wouldsay the biggest thing that
linked us to these fires was thegeographic location there,
literally, two of these firesthe first two of these fires
were within 10 feet of eachother.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Okay, so let's recap really quick for our audience
too.
So so far there's three fires.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
We have three fires.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Okay, recap really quick for our audience too.
So so far there's three fires.
We have three fires okay, threetotal fires, all of which you
have debris near the fires, onthe side of the road, or just
the first two have the debris aswell no, so the, the, it was
actually the third fire where weokay, we were able to pull the
um, the gatorade bottle thatwe're going to call our device
our device.
Okay, and all three happened onthe sunday around they happened
(31:05):
they?
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Two of them happened on a Sunday, one of them
happened on a Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
And they were all within a month of each other.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Okay, perfect, awesome.
Just recapping for our audience.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Correct, and it's important to say that the
investigators had these fires asundetermined at this time term,
at this time, so there wasnothing really pointing to arson
other than what we have asuspected device and we are
waiting on DNA results thatcould take multiple months.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Got it.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
So that's kind of where we sit on that.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So in the meantime, while you're waiting for the DNA
or if there's DNA, or anythingon there.
You're being proactive withthese license plate readers.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
We're being proactive .
We're going about business inthe office as normal.
Our shift investigators arestill investigating fires, our
day investigators are stillworking other cases.
But this is in the background,and the things that we're doing
in the background is collectingand analyzing the data on the
(32:10):
license plates, and we're alsowe put up trail cams.
So and then with theseparticular trail cams they're
it's anything that you'd findlike at a regular Bass Pro, but
it also has a timestamp on itand with that timestamp we're
also able to collaborate.
You know ignition times andwhatnot and other things like
(32:34):
that.
So we're trying to collect asmuch data as we can and hoping
that this problem isn't tied toa serial arsonist or even an
arson spree.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Could you explain the difference between the spree
and serial arsonist?
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah, so a serial arsonist is somebody that's just
going to keep going and they'remotivated by different things.
But the difference between aspree and a serial arsonist
would be.
A spree would be somebody'shaving a really bad day, they're
maybe off the rocker a littlebit and they just want to.
They just want to put fire onthe ground and they'll light a
(33:13):
series of fires.
Um, I think nfpa don't hold meto this.
Um puts a spree at three ormore okay.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
So it's kind of like a serial killer, like yeah, but
in a short time frame okay, in ashort time frame.
Okay, okay, in a short timeframe.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Okay, so we're at the three fires, but they're within
a month, but they're withindays apart.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Do the charges ever differ if it's one versus the
other or arson is?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
arson?
No, they don't Okay, maybe morecounts.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Okay, against them.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
It would just be for the DA would take advantage of
how to inform the jury of whatto consider but, we're going to
charge them with arson period.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, so we have these three fires, we're moving,
we're moving past that, we'relooking through, we're looking,
we're starting to collect thedata on this right kind of our
spidey senses are, are, are upand I think we're all kind of
hoping that that, um, maybe oneof our hypotheses of a first
responder is wrong and um, butnevertheless we're, we're just
(34:15):
keeping off normal business and,um, we actually great timing.
On that question about arsonspree, we actually do have a
spree on the Ortega and thisindividual is coming south on
the Ortega and we get adescription.
He's coming south on the Ortegaand there is a report of three
(34:35):
fires being lit actively on theOrtega.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
So this is one day you get a 911 call and they're
saying there are three littlefires that just got started on
the Ortega and this guy'sheading your way kind of thing.
Oh my gosh, Talk aboutserendipitous Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
And we have a suspect that is being described as a
male with a white T-shirt on andblue jeans and he's going south
on the Ortega and he's from thecandy store at the top of the
Ortega.
There was a start, just past acampground off the Ortega, there
was a second start and then,right before the Forest Service
(35:11):
Station, there was the thirdstart.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Oh my goodness, and that was three separate 911
calls.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
That was three, that was a, if my memory serves me
correctly.
I believe it was five different911 calls that were received on
this.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Okay, shout out to our community members for
calling that in.
That's incredible, yeah,awesome.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, so we feel good about that.
Obviously, our office clearsout.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
We're all taking a trip to the Ortega.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I'm liaising with my coworkers in Irvine and the
Sheriff's Department.
We're all making our way there.
The Sheriff's Departmentimmediately goes to the cameras.
I'm getting feedback on what'scoming down as far as license
plates and we begin working thisheading that direction, just to
(36:04):
go to work.
Work in this head in thatdirection, just to go to work.
As we arrive on scene, we havea approximately six acres with
moderate rate of spread going upthe Ortega just past the Forest
Service fire station.
Right there, and it's gettingbusy.
I tie in with the ForestService, tie in with the Forest
(36:26):
Service officer.
He lets me know right away thatthis is my lucky day, that this
is all his dirt and I agreedwith him.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But can you explain to Sophia what that statement
means?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Of course, of course.
So this actually was burning inthe Cleveland.
So the first start actuallyhappened at the Riverside County
line, at the candy store thatwould have been Riverside County
.
Cal Fire was the handle on that, and then the other two that
that were actually in theCleveland National Forest, so
(37:04):
that was.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
So now we have three different jurisdictions.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
So we have three different jurisdictions.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
How many fires is that that showed up to play
fires?
Three different jurisdictions.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
That's correct, yes, and as we continue to to to work
this, I get a report of anotherfire up the road impossible
suspect.
So we we respond up to this,this particular campground, to
find out that it was just a poorsurvey crew that was actually
surveying the campground.
(37:35):
It was really surprising.
They had four armed officerscoming in.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Felony car.
Stop on them, and they're justdoing their job, oh man.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
But no, they were great.
They completely understood and,yeah, they obviously weren't
responsible for this, or didthey have any report or
knowledge of what was going on?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Shout out to those guys.
That's a story I'm sure thatthey continue to tell.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
So after clearing that with the survey team that
was up there, we we made our wayback down and um.
I tied in with um, the forestservice, um, to offer any
assistance that OCFA can helpand um.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
So did they like, did they intercept him when they
were coming through?
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Oh, the person setting the fires.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, so he's essentially making his way to
you, right?
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Correct, Correct.
So yeah, we, so no, no, we donot catch him.
Ok he's, he slips through,slips through.
There's no one in the area thatmeets that description.
I guess there was both sides ofthe Ortega Riverside County and
Orange County was working thesuspect description there was no
(38:50):
stop to my knowledge that wasmade and yeah, so there's no
suspect at this time.
but I tie in with the ForestService to see how I can aid in
their investigation.
And we right then and there wekind of created the they were
aware of what was happening onthe Orange County side.
They've had a couple reports ofsomebody going up and down the
Ortega that was impersonating apolice officer and that they
(39:12):
were aware of activity.
But they this is the first thatthe first fire that they've had
on the ground for the season atthis time.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
And at that time that you were talking with him and
your brain you're thinking, ok,these could be connected.
So you're, at your information,sharing certain things with
those investigators, right, well, yes, and it was kind of again.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
You know, Scott, I'll let Scott talk to confirmation
bias, but I didn't really wantto, you know, put too much on on
this investigator right rightnow, as he's just he and his and
I've been there.
You have three fires, you knowin a pretty rapid, quick pace of
time and you get that overwhelmof information and it begins to
(39:52):
cloud your decision making andkind of basically what you're
seeing and what you're feelingas far as how this fire moved
and grew and all those otherimportant facts.
So I try not to, didn't want togive too much to him right away
, but definitely we're going tohave a good conversation when
this is, when he's good with hisfindings.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So just a confirmation bias, just so you
know how we operate at OCFA.
And it came through I teach theinvestigation series through
the state and I teamed up withan attorney general and then a
defense attorney from theInnocence Center out of San
Diego so I'm able to keep up onthe trends and what's going on
(40:33):
and, plus, I've always done thatanyway and the confirmation
bias is a real thing.
I never really understood thatuntil about five years ago.
So confirmation bias, basically, is I start getting information
that, let's say, sophia, youand your husband have a fight
and you're yelling and he wasyelling and then he got mad.
So in my mind I'm alreadythinking, oh, somebody
(40:55):
intentionally said that I'mputting that in there.
And if I'm a lazy investigatoror if this is my fifth one of
the day and it's three in themorning, you just start to find
things that support thathypothesis.
You don't.
The whole intent of the way wedo it, we being fire
investigators, is you want todisprove your theory, you don't
want to confirm it.
(41:16):
You're always trying todisprove it.
That way you don't get caughtup in this.
But how OCFA does it is if I'mdoing the origin and cause or
actually looking at the firescene and, let's say, bill's my
partner, he's gathering witnessstatements video.
I don't want to talk to anybody, I just want to do a forensic
scene exam and just let the firepatterns and fire effects tell
(41:37):
me what, as far as I can go with, where the fire originated and
what the cause is.
Without any outside, without anyjust because they're asking us,
even in preliminary.
So if I, when I file a case,even in the prelim, which is
before you go to trial, thedefense attorneys or the public
are asking you when did you knowthis information?
Because it is a real thing, andso, um, I won't.
(42:00):
He will not my he being bill,the guy with all the information
, the ancillary will not tell meanything until I approach him.
So we just did this last night.
I was on a fire last night.
It was a garage fire.
I went to my partner.
I'm like, hey, I know somethings.
Do you want to know he goes.
No, he wanted to find the areaof origin by himself.
I had eyewitness statementssaying this is where they saw it
.
And then we stuff that theyreported are consistent with the
(42:28):
bike failing.
But my partner didn't want toknow.
He did his own scene exam, cameback and said hey, I think it's
his bike, here's what I see.
And I'm like, yeah, you nailedit.
But that way he wasn'tinfluenced at all by anything.
So that's what he's trying tosay.
Like we don't want to pollutethis federal investigator's
opinion of what's going on.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's no .
That's incredible that you guysdo that, and that's also
something that I didn't know.
So I'm glad our communitymembers know, too that we're
doing everything, or they'redoing everything in their power
to ensure that everything'saccurate and unbiased.
So I love that.
Great job, guys.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
So I tied back in with Mike, who's the federal
investigator on the on the fire,and I asked him what his
findings were.
And he tells me he's got anundetermined fire, that he did
find some debris from a Cadillacconverter and he says it makes
sense.
He's been at this fire stationright here, it's in very close
proximity.
(43:20):
He says people in trucks areforced to hit their jake brakes
all the time going down the hilland then he goes and I also,
you know, can't eliminatesmoking.
I found a cigarette here and hewanted to talk about the
weather and the wind.
That puts everything right inline with that being a credible
(43:41):
potential ignition source.
And then he goes and, Bill, Ican't eliminate arson because I
got two other fires up the roadthat were started.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, you're like that is suspicious and an
eyewitness.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
But being a good investigator and he is a good
investigator he says I got toleave the door open on this one.
I'll go investigate the othertwo.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
So he had the forethought to leave essentially
the door.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Yeah, so he was.
He was so he had.
He actually marked the fire,undetermined um and um had good
reasoning behind it and um wentto the other two fires and he
actually marked those as um.
Um as hot starts off the, offthe 91, and um a hot starts
basically just open flameignition.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay, that's my next question.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
I was waiting for you to ask.
I'm sorry.
No, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
And so when you say open flame ignition, let's like
even more like a lighter, amatch.
Is that the kind of thing thatwe're talking about?
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Do you want me to address it, Bill?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
No, 100%, 100%.
It's an active hand.
You're right on the money withthat.
Okay, um, you're sparking alighter, you're striking a match
you're um using a plumbingtorch yeah, okay, um, any of
those things would be, or flare,road flare oh, road flare
creative any of those thingswould be considered an open
flame device okay, yeah, okayyeah, so um, and that's what he.
(45:03):
He marked the other as and hesaid he didn't have any evidence
of an engine or exhaust leakthat could have caused this, or
we call it honeycomb If you findpart of that Cadillac converter
up there.
He didn't see anything likethat.
And then he had the witnessreports on his 911 calls as well
as ours that had a report ofsomebody lighting these fires
(45:26):
off the Ortega.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
And the reason it's called honeycomb is when that
internal components of thatCadillac converter fell and they
get ejected outside yourexhaust.
It looks like a honeycomb, itlooks like a beehive honeycomb
and that just means that thatCadillac converter has failed.
It starts breaking off, it'lleject into the side of the road.
Typically when you go uphillyou're asking for more power,
(45:49):
it's super hot, it's burning offand then it ejects out.
And I'm not aware of downhill,but yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Super, super hot and essentially those are like ember
type things right.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
It's not I mean ember in my mind.
I think of like a little emberfloating from a fire, from a
tree, or something.
This is like it can be,anywhere from like a couple
inches to small, but you willsee a honeycomb.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Oh, wow, okay, I didn't realize it was so big.
Okay, so yeah, that can doserious damage.
I mean, an ember can do seriousdamage.
What is it?
Five miles and light a wholehouse on fire.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Typically ember cast, it's not a mile.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Oh, a mile, Okay, yeah, and there's some factors
as far as weather.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Yeah, totally, totally and wind, but
essentially a significantlylarger oh, yeah, yeah, okay,
okay.
So after, after that, um, thatday again we go back to the
office and, uh, this isobviously these.
These three fires have jumped,you know, high in, high in a
number count, and we're goingover recapping the events,
(46:56):
trying to find the suspect andmy partner who works with the
ATF basically tells me he has acontact through the FBI and he
goes.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
maybe we can reach out.
Okay, so we're going to stop ithere.
This will be the end of partone.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
You're going to make me wait.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
I'm sorry, but we'll continue up in part two of this.
It gets even more wackier andyou'll have some jaw-dropping
moments, but we'll continue iton in the next episode.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
That's fair.
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Okay, all right.
Okay, listeners, on today's podcast we have a story
of multiple fires that occuralong Highway 73 in October of
2021.
Investigators discover multipledelayed devices along the side
of the road with the intentionof starting wildland fires.
Follow along as multipleagencies from state to federal
(00:22):
join us in attempting to solvethis case and identifying who it
is and how to capture them.
This is Hot Pursuit.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Stories from the fire investigation's front line.
This was a type ofunpredictable weather event the
Orange County Fire Authority hadtrained for.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Firefighters responded to the 2200 block of
South Susan Street.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
The report of a commercial structure fire.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Fire investigators are still working on their full
report about the cause of thefire.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Investigators need to pick through the debris and
answer important questions likehow did the fire start?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
The suspect was arrested and charged with four
counts of arson, as well asreckless endangerment.
Welcome to Hot Pursuit, thepodcast where we dive into the
mysteries and investigations offire-related true crime cases of
the Orange County FireAuthority Investigations
Division.
I'm Sophia Champeau.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
And I am OCFA Fire Captain and Fire Investigator
Scott Kuhlman, and togetherwe'll take you behind the scenes
of some of Orange County's mostfascinating and often chilling
fire investigations, from arsonto accidental fires.
We'll explore the evidence, thesuspects and the untold stories
that emerge from the ashes.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Every episode will bring you a new case, breaking
down the events that led to thefire, and talk to the experts,
including fire investigators,law enforcement and forensic
specialists, to give you aninside look at how these cases
are solved.
Just like you, I'll be hearingthese stories for the first time
, so sit back, relax and join usas we uncover the hidden truths
behind some of Orange County'smost intriguing fire
investigations.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
This is Hot.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Pursuit.
Good morning Scott.
I can't believe we're finallyhere.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I know.
Good morning Sophia.
This is, I guess, what we'recalling.
It's serendipitous.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
I would agree for sure.
What we're calling it'sserendipitous, I would agree for
sure.
This has been a passion projectof mine, for sure, and I'm so
happy that you were able to jumpon this podcast journey with me
and I convinced you to talk notonly about investigations,
which is always hard to talkabout with investigators, but
also the great work that youguys do on these cases and how
(02:23):
lucky we are as Orange Countycitizens to be not only
protected but looked out for byour awesome investigators.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
That's very nice of you to say that and I appreciate
you spotlighting some of thecases that we have.
But before we get into that,let's tell the listeners like
how we even how this evenoccurred.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yes, Just the randomness of it, the true
serendipitousness, yeah, that'sthe word of it yeah, do you want
to start?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I'll start with how I came in and met to you.
Okay, so I remember it was ahot day, I just collected
evidence and so we have to dropoff our evidence.
Here at headquarters.
We have a secure facility.
I was hot, I secure facility, Iwas hot.
I still had like soot on me.
I was probably not smelling thebest, yeah, and so I was going
(03:14):
back to our main office and thenI was going to head to head or
back to the station to shower upand I see you.
And then I've been wanting toget in contact with you because
you were just killing it on thesocial media and I had a bunch
of questions.
I'm like, man, this, she reallygot this down.
And so I run into you.
I'm like, uh, hey, sophia ScottColeman.
You're like, yeah, how's itgoing?
And so we started talking andI'm like, hey, I need some help
(03:38):
with this.
And I'm looking at marketing.
And we started talking aboutpodcasts and you did some.
I don't know if you realize youdid it.
I'm like, yeah, I'm involved inthis pocket.
And you kind of like did anElaine from Jerry Seinfeld?
You're like get out.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
You've kind of pushed me and you're like I couldn't
believe it An investigatortalking to me about wanting to
talk about his cases.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
That's like well then you're like I just left a
meeting five minutes ago, so youtake it from there.
That's how I remember it.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay, so, yes, so I have.
There's a certain day a week Ialways have my one-on-ones with
my boss, and part of my job isto be proactive in our
strategies and reaching ourcommunities and things like that
, and so I had been toyingaround with this idea of a
podcast before, and so Iactually that morning had
pitched it to my boss and heloved the idea, and so in my
(04:23):
little brain I was going athousand miles a minute.
Okay, now I got to get buy-infor this and I got to find
someone who wants to do it withme and all the things that start
going through someone's brain.
And I was just crossing thestreet, walking something over
to purchasing, and all of asudden I hear, hey, are you the
social media girl?
And I was like this is going togo one of two ways.
He's either going to be soexcited, or he?
(04:45):
has something to talk to meabout that he's not excited
about.
And then, yes, I do remember westarted talking about podcasts
and just our different ideas onhow to best promote the agency,
and the fact that you wanted todo this with me was awesome, and
I think that day, even like anhour later, we were already on
the phone brainstormingdifferent cases and who we could
have on the show.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So definitely serendipitous.
Yeah, it was good timingbecause the investigator that
we're bringing on in our I guesspilot episode.
He has done a lot of good casesrecently, but there's one that
I wanted to make aware that tooka lot of work, a lot of time,
wanted to get it celebrated andwhat a great avenue for the
citizens to understand whatservices we provide and how we
(05:27):
go about solving some of thesereally intense cases.
But can you explain to thelisteners?
So what's the format?
How do we want to do this?
What can they expect?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Absolutely so.
When I came to OCFA and this isa little bit relevant too for
the podcast is I actually camefrom a law enforcement
background.
I'm doing very similarcommunications, pr, social media
and I always found it sointeresting the behind the
scenes that people don't get tosee every day, and that's really
what I wanted to show them onsocial media.
(06:01):
And so when we were talking,when I came to OCFA and I saw,
oh wow, we actually have our owninvestigators, I thought that
was in and of itself cool.
And then I thought and then Ifound out that not only are you
guys full fledged firefightersthat go through the academy and,
you know, do your rotation,startup as a rookie, everything.
And not only are you a fullfledged firefighter, you are
full-fledged cop, you guys carryguns, you guys do these
(06:25):
full-fledged investigations, yougo out and teach fire
investigations.
And I thought this is such anincredible way to share with our
communities all of the hardwork that you guys do and
something that they probablydon't even know exists, because
I didn't know exists and I wasalready in this world, so I
really love that you're on boardwith the opportunity of not
only showcasing the hard workbut the cases of our mutual aid
(06:48):
cases to our partners in lawenforcement, our partners at the
district attorney's officefederally state all of them, and
so I think this is a very, veryinteresting way to look behind
the scenes at all of everythingand the hard work that you guys
do.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So well, thank you for that.
And then you don't know thatI'm going to say this, but it's
funny because I was made awareof you.
We were on some large incidentin just before you came over,
but it was told to us thatthey've hired a new social media
, and so I'm sitting there withlaw enforcement the local
(07:20):
sheriff, specifically, and yourboss was in front of me and we'd
been sitting there for, yeah,and I can't remember the
incident now, but we were.
It was an all day thing.
I think there was somepotential riot or something that
was going to occur, and so shewas very nice and I'm like, hey,
can I get you some drinks?
And she's like, oh, okay.
And she goes hey, actually I gotto let you know, you have one
of our best social media.
(07:41):
People come out.
I'm like, oh really, she goes,yeah, she's starting.
We're so sad to lose her.
And then I've seen your worksince then and I'm like, well,
you're actually really good atit.
So I'm like that's cool that wegot you.
But for the listener, how wasthis format set up as far as
what's my role and your role,and what can they expect to hear
(08:03):
as far as how these cases willunfold?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
How are we approaching this?
So we're approaching it the wayto help our audience best
understand it and absorb it.
So I'm coming into these casescompletely blind, as our
audience is.
So, really, I'm going to helpmake sure you guys remember to
say what the acronyms mean andexplain the cases and kind of
ask just like layman questions,stuff that you guys find day to
(08:31):
day but that we find in ournormal day to day life very
fascinating.
So each of our cases are goingto be specific to the Orange
County communities.
We're going to do a lot ofcases, obviously, here that
we've investigated with ourinvestigators at OCFA, but we're
also hope to bring on some ofour mutual aid cases as well and
highlight the good work and thepartnership that we've done in
the community.
We're so excited that we'regoing to have 10 episodes for
(08:53):
our Orange County communities tolisten to and we're actually
going to end with an episodethat we're asking our
communities help with.
It is not an adjudicated caseso it is not solved yet.
We actually have some greatevidence that we get to share
with you guys too to help usfind this person.
So we hope that you followalong, you listen along with us
on this journey.
We're hoping to release one newepisode every other week for
(09:15):
the next couple months and thenwe'll get to that last one where
we really need your guys' help.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And as an active investigator in this section
here at the Orange County FireAuthority.
We really do need your help.
We're going to give you somegood information at the final
episode.
We do have phone lines setaside just for this incident.
So if you continue to listen on, you understand how we start to
work these cases.
We hope that as a communityeffort and as we work for you
(09:40):
but sometimes some of our bestpartners are you, our citizens
If we can work together for thiscase, it would mean a lot to us
and certain people in thecommunity.
It'll make more as we gettowards the 10th episode, but
that's really what we're workingtowards at the end, so we hope
you follow along.
There'll be a compelling 10episodes.
You'll learn a little bit aboutwhat we do and what your local
investigators do and who we workwith.
(10:01):
So I'm excited.
Let's get this going.
Let's go.
So let's start off with what'sadjudicated mean.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
That's a great yes.
Adjudicated just means that itis essentially the case has been
closed in the court system.
So we've gone through all thetestimonies have been read, the
jury has determined guilt or notguilt, and it's they've been,
and they're either in jail orthey're not in jail.
So essentially the case isclosed.
(10:28):
So that allows ourinvestigators to share a lot
more details on the case thatthey don't normally do or that
they can't really when they'reinvestigating a case.
So this really gives us aunique opportunity to see the
details, the evidence, photos,all of that exciting stuff that
us true crime diehards love tosee.
And we will also be uploadingall of the materials on our
(10:51):
website so that everyone can notonly follow along while they're
listening, but catch up ifthey're binging us on the feed,
hopefully.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Okay.
Well, so for our first case,it's really funny that you said
our federal, our state, ourmutual aid, brothers and sisters
.
This case that's coming upinvolves basically everybody.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
These two yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
So I'm excited for this one.
I'm very proud of this case.
I'm proud of the investigationwork our section did, our
brothers and sisters at thestate level, federal level, and
it came to an unexpectedconclusion for us.
But that's the one we'll bediving in today.
It's so involved and there's alot of moving pieces that this
(11:40):
will be a two-parter.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I love two-parters.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
We're going to drag you and the listeners through
two episodes for this, but thepayoff at the end, when you find
out who it is and then how itcame to its finality, it'll be
worth it I can't wait to hear it.
Yes, so for this case.
So you know nothing about this?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
case.
Right, I don't, no, I'm goingin totally blind.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I know.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
And you're pretty excited I am.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
I am a true crime junkie at heart.
So Shambini Ramsey, scottPeterson, let's talk about it.
So she's literally levitatingoff her chair right now, so I
can't help it.
I'm just going to give you likea quick synopsis and I'll leave
it to the investigator to comein and tell his investigation
and when it went and I'll kindof guide you.
But it's all started aroundOctober 2021.
It's along the corridor calledthe 73.
(12:31):
We had multiple little fires inand around that area, which led
to us really focusing on aspecific area and throughout the
investigation, you'll just besurprised at what we found and
what occurred and how thisinvestigator and our brothers
and sisters from both thefederal level and state level
(12:54):
worked to bring this case to aconclusion.
Now, just for those who don'tknow, the 73 is a high, like
wild land area, has a lot ofpotential to take off.
So we take every fire serious,but when we notice these kinds,
we get very worried because itcan take out a whole community
in a matter of an hour.
So, saying that, I want tointroduce you to Investigator
(13:16):
Bill Strom, with the OrangeCounty Fire Authority.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Welcome.
We're so excited to have you.
Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Hi, good morning.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So, bill, I know this .
We worked with a lot of peopleon this case, yes, but you were
the lead investigator on ourside.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yes, sir.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Correct, so Can we talk about.
Can you lead us in to how weeven discovered, or when we
started to recognize, some kindof pattern or issue in this
specific area?
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, so early in the week before I went on days off,
we had a fire on the Ortega.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And it came back from the investigators that were on
scene that was undetermined andthey weren't able to rule out
some unintentional causes but aswell as arson, and that was
noted and didn't pay a whole lotof attention to that, because
fires happen from time to timeand that's that's our business.
But prior to that, on a Sundayfollowing that week, we had
(14:19):
another fire fire that kickedoff on the Ortega and so that
was kind of pinging on our radaris that we had three in a very,
very close area.
So as a day investigator myjob's a little different, where
I handle the criminal follow-upand I handle cases that are
going to extend.
The investigation is going toextend past a day or two.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But I should probably clarify for our listeners that
our section.
So I'm what's considered ashift investigator, meaning I
work the 24-hour shift.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Okay, much like our PIOs, like A, b, c shift,
correct, okay?
Speaker 1 (14:54):
perfect, so I'll do 48 hours on, and then we have
our days off.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
For our shift work here at OCFA for operations
folks.
They have two days on, fourdays off, and so it ends up
being an A, B and C shift, andeach of those is two days in a
row.
I know I'm dumbing it down alittle bit there, but that's
essentially what it is.
And then we do have otheroperations folks who work other
hours, so that might be helpfulas well.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
So the shift work which I do, we just respond and
we go from fire to fire, to fireto fire.
Now the reason I think theOrange County Fire Authority is
so successful with its bothdetermining an arson and then
conviction rate of arson isbecause we have Bill and other
day guys who, if I'm at a sceneand I need to pull video or I
(15:41):
need to interview somebody who'sjust not there at that time, I
write from the scene a follow-uprequest and then Bill goes out
and he'll continue any kind ofextended work which from the
previous agency Bill and I werewith.
We never enjoyed that, so wedidn't have a very high success
rate in any kind of eithercapture or conviction for arson.
(16:02):
We just didn't have that followup.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So yeah, the additional resources basically.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I think this day shift position is the reason our
section is so, so successful,and I noticed that a lot of
other agencies are looking at itas a wow, you do have a lot of
success rate.
Looking at it as a wow, you dohave a lot of success rates.
So that's his role and that'swhy we do.
That's why we're able to stayon these calls until it comes to
some kind of conclusion.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
So coming into work on on Monday morning we realized
that we kind of had three firesin a very tight area, that
that's happened over a course ofabout a week, since that fire
occurred on a Sunday coming inon a Monday decided to take some
liberties to drive out there.
(16:49):
So me and my day shift partnerdrove out there and we met the
two investigators that were onscene.
When we were on scene we kindof observed just kind of a
typical debris field vegetation.
The fire itself, the burn scaritself was no bigger than 10 by
10.
We seen that the fire couldhave potentially started from
(17:15):
the road and moved its way in.
But on the outskirts of thedebris pile, as we looked on the
outside, we were able to seethat there was what looked like
maybe potential road litter.
In that road litter there was acouple plastic bottles that had
some material stuffed in themand it looked like, maybe even
like, a potential device.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
And how about?
You said this was like right onthe edge of the side of the
road, or was it in a little bit?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
It was about 10 to 15 feet from the road.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Oh okay, it's like a good amount.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Yeah, and kind of hidden behind a big oak tree.
And this oak tree was distinctbecause it actually overhanged
the road so it looked like itwould be someplace that somebody
might want to pull over andtake a nap or get some shade or
maybe make their last cell phonecall before they lose reception
take a nap or get some shade ormaybe make their last cell
phone call before they losereception.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
If I can interject, that's an important part about
the reception too on the cellphone.
But I remember the previous twofires we thought so.
Sometimes, for use of it, we'llcall a fire undetermined,
meaning we can't conclusivelytell you how it started.
So some of the things and Iremember on these fires
specifically, they were close tothe roadside and there was a
place where all of them had somekind of road litter and we knew
(18:26):
there was human activity at oraround or near there so people
could discard a cigarette.
So we have to look at all these.
So the previous two fires Iremember we classed as
undetermined.
But arson or an intentionallyset fire was one of the ones we
couldn't exclude.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
So it essentially keeps your options open should
you find out additionalinformation down the line that
would affect the investigation.
Basically, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So we're just looking , we're like, well, it looks
like there's smoking materialhere and it's close enough to
the road that if there's somekind of spark or Cadillac
converter incident even thoughwe didn't find clues of a
Cadillac converter failure fromyour car we'd look at everything
.
And so on the first two, we'relike we can't really find a
source, but I can't conclusivelyeliminate like a smoking
(19:09):
material, but also I can't findanother competent ignition
source, so we're going to haveto leave an intentionally set
fire on the table for these two.
Sure Not knowing there's apattern or anything coming right
.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Correct.
Yeah yeah, so you're on thethird fire now, and then you
find this road litter that atfirst you thought was nothing.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Right, yeah.
So we find this road litter andas we begin to look at this, my
partner's like kind of goingaround the edge and he's like,
yeah, it appears to be burned onthe end of this.
What we?
I'm going to just go ahead andcall it a device now.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Bill, could you describe that, what you're
seeing, the device, because Iknow we have a photo of it.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, so this is a.
It's very basic.
It's a Gatorade bottle withwhat appears to be a paper towel
on the end of it and the end ofthe paper towel has burning
around it, but there's nodegradation, there's no burning
that actually extends past thisbottle.
It's just a Gatorade bottlewith a burnt piece of paper.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And there's no liquid in it that you could see, and
there's zero liquid in itInteresting.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
So, anyways, we pull this apart and we decided to
take it as evidence.
So we go ahead and mark itappropriately and photograph it.
Mark it appropriately andphotograph it.
And as we begin to dissect this, as we pull this out, this
piece of paper that we look atas a paper towel is actually a
gauze wrapper.
It's just a paper wrapper thatyou would put a piece of sterile
(20:33):
gauze in and within that welooked on the opposite end of
that piece of paper, that gauzewrapper, and we were able to
identify that there wasdegradation on the other end of
it too.
So it looks like somebodyintentionally lit both ends of
this piece of paper and stuck itin this Gatorade bottle as a
potential device to start a fire.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Bill, can I jump in real quick?
Sure, absolutely so, just forSophia.
So when they first saw thebottle and the paper towels
coming out and it had firedamage on the end, that's
already laying in the inneraround the brush.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
We couldn't, we weren't sure that the fire
didn't burn up to that and burnthat end.
You know what I'm saying.
Oh, I see, but when we took thepaper out, as he described, and
then we saw burning on theinside, there's no way the fire
is going to jump.
So we knew somebodyintentionally set both ends.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Right, you couldn't OK.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
So Bill's like oh well, this is different.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Sorry.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Bill.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Immediately piques your interest.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Correct and we're looking at this and we're like,
like Scott was saying, that thiswas on the outside of the fire
and this is potentially a devicethat may have been used to
start a fire.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
It also seems like adding that length of paper
gives them time to run away orlike, get away from Absolutely
Right the definition of a devicewould be to accelerate a fire
or delay the start of a fire.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
Oh, ok, that's what people use it for, and in this
one, particularly because it wason the outside of what we call
the burn scar, particularlybecause it was on the outside of
what we call the burn scar, itwas a potential failed device
and that's of some interest.
And we're like looking at itand we're like pretty sure this
didn't communicate to the burnthat there was something else
(22:12):
that may have started this fire,but nevertheless this might
have been an attempt.
So we took this piece ofevidence and we processed it and
with the crime lab.
Anytime that we submit evidenceto the crime lab I mean
especially dealing with DNA wecould be up to four to five
months that's not uncommonbefore we get results on this.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And our crime lab.
From my understanding is, we'veactually cleared a lot of our
backlog as compared to otheragencies too, right?
So we're doing pretty good incomparison, aren't we?
Speaker 3 (22:42):
A hundred percent.
That's amazing.
Our crime lab does so shout outto them.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
They're doing the hard work.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
We actually enjoy a very good relationship with our
crime lab.
They come out and teach with us.
We bring students there and wewalk through the crime lab.
We have a very goodrelationship with our crime lab.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
I've written along with one of their I'm not sure
the exact title, so I'm going tosay technician.
However, they were so gracious.
I learned so much, so shout outto them for sure.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Awesome, awesome.
So now we have this data thatwe've collected and we're
looking at this fire inparticular if not the other two
that we have, because we're atthree at this point as being
potentially related.
So I take this data back to ouroffice, I'm talking with my
(23:25):
partners and we're going throughthis and we start putting it on
a whiteboard, basically likeall the different scenarios that
we could be running across,kind of what we're thinking Is
this just a one-off, is thisjust somebody that made a bad
decision, that was having a badday, or is this going to be
something bigger down the road?
But we want to get ahead of it?
(23:47):
So we feel like we're in a goodplace having this evidence
processed.
And then we start going and Ipull the other two case files
and as I start going throughthese other two case files, I
notice some interesting thingsthat are interesting to me and
and um, some of the data that'sin these files it's talking
about how they're called in, youknow.
(24:07):
So we have 911 data and whatnot.
So the first, the first, veryfirst fire that was noted to us
was was actually right around um, the Halloween, halloween time
and um, I'm thinking, ah, maybethe Halloween time and I'm
thinking maybe kids you know,I'm not sure what's going on.
This was called in by apasserby and the fire never
(24:33):
really got that big 10 feet.
So this fire over here stillcould not really connecting them
right, this fire over here,even though the time frame's
short and they're in closeproximity of each other.
But this could be a completeone-off.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And what time of day were these calls coming in?
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Two o'clock.
That's a great question becauseas we go through this process,
all of them seem to bemid-afternoon to just before
dark.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Is that typically an uncommon time for someone to do
an arson, or is there anytypical arson?
I guess is the better question?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
In my experience, there is no.
I mean late at night typicallyCover of dark.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, no rhyme or reason.
Yeah, there's not.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
And then the Ortega is as we all know, those that
have driven it.
It's a major thoroughfarebetween Orange County and
Riverside, so people are goingup and over the Ortega all the
time.
So traffic builds up in themorning coming to work and at
the five o'clock hour going home, traffic kind of builds up
again, you know, and thenthere's parts that you lose cell
phone reception and there's,you know, people pull over to
(25:30):
make that last call before theygo over the hill, the last work
call, last call home, whatever,whatever the situation may be.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, for those at home, the 74 Ortega Highway is a
pretty rural area and a lot ofbrush, a lot of what?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
our firefighters or our operations.
People would consider fuel forthe fire Basically.
Just it's going to go fast ifit does light, and I can tell
you that I've been on a numberof fire-related roadside fires
there, but they were a result ofimproperly discarded smelting
material, specifically in acertain area there where
students would park on the sideand then they would throw away.
But these appeared to bedifferent at that time.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Correct, correct, yes .
And then the second fire thatwe were pinging on was also on a
Sunday.
What was interesting about thisone is this fire was reported
by a patrol, a fire patrol thatwas going up and down a brush
rig, that was going up and downthe Ortega, in between two fire
(26:29):
stations that are on the Ortega.
You kind of screech in theoffice because we're looking at
this device that we have, thatwe've pulled apart as we're
going through it.
It's gauze, but it's not thenormal gauze that you'd find at
(26:51):
a pharmacy or a conveniencestore.
This was the packaging on itwas specific to a major vendor,
a vendor that I've seen on callsthroughout my career, like a
healthcare vendor type, a vendorthat I've seen on calls
throughout my career.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Like a health care vendor type thing.
Well, absolutely that both EMTs, firefighters.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
So specific individuals have access to.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
First responders use.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Okay, yes, and the eerie part about the Gatorade
bottle was it's very typical towhat we would see on a brush
fire that we use to rehab, thatwe use to rehab, so this being
called in by a brush rig andwe're running across some
medical supplies that aretypical to what we have in any
one of our trauma bags and someother road debris that's on the
road.
Some other debris that's on theroad far as you know sound
(27:33):
trappers and hamburger cartonsand stuff like that Kind of you
know.
You know it looks like the one.
actually one of my partners saidthis looks like the front seat
of of any fire engine on astrike team oh no, and your
spidey sensors are going off,spidey senses are going off and
we realize that we may have anissue, because now we have three
of these fires that are thatare pretty close and then we're
(27:55):
finding we're finding it beingcalled in by a first responder
not through through 9-1-1.
And we're kind of circling thewagons a little bit and trying
to so just to be clear, Bill,who moved into your potential
suspect?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
that needed to be eliminated file.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Right.
So obviously we looked at thecrew that was responding that
day, the crew that called it in.
We started backtracking our 911callers and the suspect pool
was big and broad.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
So basically, our.
Emts, firefighters, we justentered your suspect pool.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
That's correct.
Dun dun dun.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Yeah, that's correct On a small yes.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Your Gatorade gave it away.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
No, I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding, I'm just
kidding.
Not necessarily as broad as abig paintbrush stroke, but it
was definitely the people thatwere around that day were being
considered.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
So the thing with that is that as our unit, our
section investigation sectionhere in OCFA and that's, we have
to protect some of theinformation.
And because there was becomingpeak interest and like, well,
what's going on on that Ortega,we can't really talk about that
because we don't know,especially if it's refining
(29:13):
material that's consistent withfirst responders and the way
it's getting called in, andwe're like, hey, because
everybody knows everybody andeverybody talks.
So we had to keep it quiet.
It was so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah Well, that's hard and it's almost.
Is it harder having thatinformation?
Speaker 3 (29:30):
and not being able to share it.
Yes, I'd rather not know, or isit?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
harder to not know the information.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yes, I'd rather not.
I wish you wouldn't have toldme.
But anyway, go ahead, bill, I'msorry.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Some of the other pieces of our investigation that
we started was we liaison withIrvine PD and the Sheriff's
Department and we have a reallygood working relationship with
both Orange County Sheriffs andIrvine PD and we started pulling
LPR information the licenseplate readers.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Okay, I was just about to ask what's an.
Lpr.
Oh, so we started for thosetime frames of these fires.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
So we started collecting the data on these
plates, the license platereaders Okay, I was just about
to ask what's an LPR.
So we started for thosetimeframes of these fires.
So we started collecting thedata on these plates.
But, as I said earlier, we havea lot of traffic coming up and
down the Ortega, so trying tofind a match where we could have
the same vehicle in the area atthe same time became quite a
challenge.
Additionally to that, afterthese fires were identified to
(30:27):
be kind of linked and I wouldsay the biggest thing that
linked us to these fires was thegeographic location there,
literally, two of these firesthe first two of these fires
were within 10 feet of eachother.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Okay, so let's recap really quick for our audience
too.
So so far there's three fires.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
We have three fires.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Okay, recap really quick for our audience too.
So so far there's three fires.
We have three fires okay, threetotal fires, all of which you
have debris near the fires, onthe side of the road, or just
the first two have the debris aswell no, so the, the, it was
actually the third fire where weokay, we were able to pull the
um, the gatorade bottle thatwe're going to call our device
our device.
Okay, and all three happened onthe sunday around they happened
(31:05):
they?
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Two of them happened on a Sunday, one of them
happened on a Wednesday.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
And they were all within a month of each other.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Okay, perfect, awesome.
Just recapping for our audience.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Correct, and it's important to say that the
investigators had these fires asundetermined at this time term,
at this time, so there wasnothing really pointing to arson
other than what we have asuspected device and we are
waiting on DNA results thatcould take multiple months.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Got it.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
So that's kind of where we sit on that.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So in the meantime, while you're waiting for the DNA
or if there's DNA, or anythingon there.
You're being proactive withthese license plate readers.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
We're being proactive .
We're going about business inthe office as normal.
Our shift investigators arestill investigating fires, our
day investigators are stillworking other cases.
But this is in the background,and the things that we're doing
in the background is collectingand analyzing the data on the
(32:10):
license plates, and we're alsowe put up trail cams.
So and then with theseparticular trail cams they're
it's anything that you'd findlike at a regular Bass Pro, but
it also has a timestamp on itand with that timestamp we're
also able to collaborate.
You know ignition times andwhatnot and other things like
(32:34):
that.
So we're trying to collect asmuch data as we can and hoping
that this problem isn't tied toa serial arsonist or even an
arson spree.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Could you explain the difference between the spree
and serial arsonist?
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah, so a serial arsonist is somebody that's just
going to keep going and they'remotivated by different things.
But the difference between aspree and a serial arsonist
would be.
A spree would be somebody'shaving a really bad day, they're
maybe off the rocker a littlebit and they just want to.
They just want to put fire onthe ground and they'll light a
(33:13):
series of fires.
Um, I think nfpa don't hold meto this.
Um puts a spree at three ormore okay.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
So it's kind of like a serial killer, like yeah, but
in a short time frame okay, in ashort time frame.
Okay, okay, in a short timeframe.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Okay, so we're at the three fires, but they're within
a month, but they're withindays apart.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Do the charges ever differ if it's one versus the
other or arson is?
Speaker 3 (33:37):
arson?
No, they don't Okay, maybe morecounts.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Okay, against them.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
It would just be for the DA would take advantage of
how to inform the jury of whatto consider but, we're going to
charge them with arson period.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah, so we have these three fires, we're moving,
we're moving past that, we'relooking through, we're looking,
we're starting to collect thedata on this right kind of our
spidey senses are, are, are upand I think we're all kind of
hoping that that, um, maybe oneof our hypotheses of a first
responder is wrong and um, butnevertheless we're, we're just
(34:15):
keeping off normal business and,um, we actually great timing.
On that question about arsonspree, we actually do have a
spree on the Ortega and thisindividual is coming south on
the Ortega and we get adescription.
He's coming south on the Ortegaand there is a report of three
(34:35):
fires being lit actively on theOrtega.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
So this is one day you get a 911 call and they're
saying there are three littlefires that just got started on
the Ortega and this guy'sheading your way kind of thing.
Oh my gosh, Talk aboutserendipitous Okay.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
And we have a suspect that is being described as a
male with a white T-shirt on andblue jeans and he's going south
on the Ortega and he's from thecandy store at the top of the
Ortega.
There was a start, just past acampground off the Ortega, there
was a second start and then,right before the Forest Service
(35:11):
Station, there was the thirdstart.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Oh my goodness, and that was three separate 911
calls.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
That was three, that was a, if my memory serves me
correctly.
I believe it was five different911 calls that were received on
this.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Okay, shout out to our community members for
calling that in.
That's incredible, yeah,awesome.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, so we feel good about that.
Obviously, our office clearsout.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
We're all taking a trip to the Ortega.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I'm liaising with my coworkers in Irvine and the
Sheriff's Department.
We're all making our way there.
The Sheriff's Departmentimmediately goes to the cameras.
I'm getting feedback on what'scoming down as far as license
plates and we begin working thisheading that direction, just to
(36:04):
go to work.
Work in this head in thatdirection, just to go to work.
As we arrive on scene, we havea approximately six acres with
moderate rate of spread going upthe Ortega just past the Forest
Service fire station.
Right there, and it's gettingbusy.
I tie in with the ForestService, tie in with the Forest
(36:26):
Service officer.
He lets me know right away thatthis is my lucky day, that this
is all his dirt and I agreedwith him.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But can you explain to Sophia what that statement
means?
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Of course, of course.
So this actually was burning inthe Cleveland.
So the first start actuallyhappened at the Riverside County
line, at the candy store thatwould have been Riverside County
.
Cal Fire was the handle on that, and then the other two that
that were actually in theCleveland National Forest, so
(37:04):
that was.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
So now we have three different jurisdictions.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
So we have three different jurisdictions.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
How many fires is that that showed up to play
fires?
Three different jurisdictions.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
That's correct, yes, and as we continue to to to work
this, I get a report of anotherfire up the road impossible
suspect.
So we we respond up to this,this particular campground, to
find out that it was just a poorsurvey crew that was actually
surveying the campground.
(37:35):
It was really surprising.
They had four armed officerscoming in.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Felony car.
Stop on them, and they're justdoing their job, oh man.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
But no, they were great.
They completely understood and,yeah, they obviously weren't
responsible for this, or didthey have any report or
knowledge of what was going on?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Shout out to those guys.
That's a story I'm sure thatthey continue to tell.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
So after clearing that with the survey team that
was up there, we we made our wayback down and um.
I tied in with um, the forestservice, um, to offer any
assistance that OCFA can helpand um.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
So did they like, did they intercept him when they
were coming through?
Speaker 1 (38:17):
Oh, the person setting the fires.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, so he's essentially making his way to
you, right?
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Correct, Correct.
So yeah, we, so no, no, we donot catch him.
Ok he's, he slips through,slips through.
There's no one in the area thatmeets that description.
I guess there was both sides ofthe Ortega Riverside County and
Orange County was working thesuspect description there was no
(38:50):
stop to my knowledge that wasmade and yeah, so there's no
suspect at this time.
but I tie in with the ForestService to see how I can aid in
their investigation.
And we right then and there wekind of created the they were
aware of what was happening onthe Orange County side.
They've had a couple reports ofsomebody going up and down the
Ortega that was impersonating apolice officer and that they
(39:12):
were aware of activity.
But they this is the first thatthe first fire that they've had
on the ground for the season atthis time.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
And at that time that you were talking with him and
your brain you're thinking, ok,these could be connected.
So you're, at your information,sharing certain things with
those investigators, right, well, yes, and it was kind of again.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
You know, Scott, I'll let Scott talk to confirmation
bias, but I didn't really wantto, you know, put too much on on
this investigator right rightnow, as he's just he and his and
I've been there.
You have three fires, you knowin a pretty rapid, quick pace of
time and you get that overwhelmof information and it begins to
(39:52):
cloud your decision making andkind of basically what you're
seeing and what you're feelingas far as how this fire moved
and grew and all those otherimportant facts.
So I try not to, didn't want togive too much to him right away
, but definitely we're going tohave a good conversation when
this is, when he's good with hisfindings.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So just a confirmation bias, just so you
know how we operate at OCFA.
And it came through I teach theinvestigation series through
the state and I teamed up withan attorney general and then a
defense attorney from theInnocence Center out of San
Diego so I'm able to keep up onthe trends and what's going on
(40:33):
and, plus, I've always done thatanyway and the confirmation
bias is a real thing.
I never really understood thatuntil about five years ago.
So confirmation bias, basically, is I start getting information
that, let's say, sophia, youand your husband have a fight
and you're yelling and he wasyelling and then he got mad.
So in my mind I'm alreadythinking, oh, somebody
(40:55):
intentionally said that I'mputting that in there.
And if I'm a lazy investigatoror if this is my fifth one of
the day and it's three in themorning, you just start to find
things that support thathypothesis.
You don't.
The whole intent of the way wedo it, we being fire
investigators, is you want todisprove your theory, you don't
want to confirm it.
(41:16):
You're always trying todisprove it.
That way you don't get caughtup in this.
But how OCFA does it is if I'mdoing the origin and cause or
actually looking at the firescene and, let's say, bill's my
partner, he's gathering witnessstatements video.
I don't want to talk to anybody, I just want to do a forensic
scene exam and just let the firepatterns and fire effects tell
(41:37):
me what, as far as I can go with, where the fire originated and
what the cause is.
Without any outside, without anyjust because they're asking us,
even in preliminary.
So if I, when I file a case,even in the prelim, which is
before you go to trial, thedefense attorneys or the public
are asking you when did you knowthis information?
Because it is a real thing, andso, um, I won't.
(42:00):
He will not my he being bill,the guy with all the information
, the ancillary will not tell meanything until I approach him.
So we just did this last night.
I was on a fire last night.
It was a garage fire.
I went to my partner.
I'm like, hey, I know somethings.
Do you want to know he goes.
No, he wanted to find the areaof origin by himself.
I had eyewitness statementssaying this is where they saw it
.
And then we stuff that theyreported are consistent with the
(42:28):
bike failing.
But my partner didn't want toknow.
He did his own scene exam, cameback and said hey, I think it's
his bike, here's what I see.
And I'm like, yeah, you nailedit.
But that way he wasn'tinfluenced at all by anything.
So that's what he's trying tosay.
Like we don't want to pollutethis federal investigator's
opinion of what's going on.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's no .
That's incredible that you guysdo that, and that's also
something that I didn't know.
So I'm glad our communitymembers know, too that we're
doing everything, or they'redoing everything in their power
to ensure that everything'saccurate and unbiased.
So I love that.
Great job, guys.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
So I tied back in with Mike, who's the federal
investigator on the on the fire,and I asked him what his
findings were.
And he tells me he's got anundetermined fire, that he did
find some debris from a Cadillacconverter and he says it makes
sense.
He's been at this fire stationright here, it's in very close
proximity.
(43:20):
He says people in trucks areforced to hit their jake brakes
all the time going down the hilland then he goes and I also,
you know, can't eliminatesmoking.
I found a cigarette here and hewanted to talk about the
weather and the wind.
That puts everything right inline with that being a credible
(43:41):
potential ignition source.
And then he goes and, Bill, Ican't eliminate arson because I
got two other fires up the roadthat were started.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, you're like that is suspicious and an
eyewitness.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
But being a good investigator and he is a good
investigator he says I got toleave the door open on this one.
I'll go investigate the othertwo.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
So he had the forethought to leave essentially
the door.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Yeah, so he was.
He was so he had.
He actually marked the fire,undetermined um and um had good
reasoning behind it and um wentto the other two fires and he
actually marked those as um.
Um as hot starts off the, offthe 91, and um a hot starts
basically just open flameignition.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay, that's my next question.
Speaker 1 (44:25):
I was waiting for you to ask.
I'm sorry.
No, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
And so when you say open flame ignition, let's like
even more like a lighter, amatch.
Is that the kind of thing thatwe're talking about?
Speaker 1 (44:37):
Do you want me to address it, Bill?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
No, 100%, 100%.
It's an active hand.
You're right on the money withthat.
Okay, um, you're sparking alighter, you're striking a match
you're um using a plumbingtorch yeah, okay, um, any of
those things would be, or flare,road flare oh, road flare
creative any of those thingswould be considered an open
flame device okay, yeah, okayyeah, so um, and that's what he.
(45:03):
He marked the other as and hesaid he didn't have any evidence
of an engine or exhaust leakthat could have caused this, or
we call it honeycomb If you findpart of that Cadillac converter
up there.
He didn't see anything likethat.
And then he had the witnessreports on his 911 calls as well
as ours that had a report ofsomebody lighting these fires
(45:26):
off the Ortega.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
And the reason it's called honeycomb is when that
internal components of thatCadillac converter fell and they
get ejected outside yourexhaust.
It looks like a honeycomb, itlooks like a beehive honeycomb
and that just means that thatCadillac converter has failed.
It starts breaking off, it'lleject into the side of the road.
Typically when you go uphillyou're asking for more power,
(45:49):
it's super hot, it's burning offand then it ejects out.
And I'm not aware of downhill,but yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
Super, super hot and essentially those are like ember
type things right.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
It's not I mean ember in my mind.
I think of like a little emberfloating from a fire, from a
tree, or something.
This is like it can be,anywhere from like a couple
inches to small, but you willsee a honeycomb.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Oh, wow, okay, I didn't realize it was so big.
Okay, so yeah, that can doserious damage.
I mean, an ember can do seriousdamage.
What is it?
Five miles and light a wholehouse on fire.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Typically ember cast, it's not a mile.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Oh, a mile, Okay, yeah, and there's some factors
as far as weather.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Yeah, totally, totally and wind, but
essentially a significantlylarger oh, yeah, yeah, okay,
okay.
So after, after that, um, thatday again we go back to the
office and, uh, this isobviously these.
These three fires have jumped,you know, high in, high in a
number count, and we're goingover recapping the events,
(46:56):
trying to find the suspect andmy partner who works with the
ATF basically tells me he has acontact through the FBI and he
goes.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
maybe we can reach out.
Okay, so we're going to stop ithere.
This will be the end of partone.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
You're going to make me wait.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
I'm sorry, but we'll continue up in part two of this.
It gets even more wackier andyou'll have some jaw-dropping
moments, but we'll continue iton in the next episode.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
That's fair.
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Okay, all right.
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