S4 E09 - Scaffolding Your Doula Game: The Unfiltered Blueprint with Kaely Harrod - Hot+Brave

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You are listening to the Hot and Brave Podcast with
Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia,where you will hear brave
stories, hot topics, and truthbombs that will either light
fire to your rage or be the balmyou need for your

SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
soul.
Hello, everyone, and welcomeback to the Hot and Brave
Podcast.
I'm your host, Bianca Sprague.
And I am very excited abouttoday's episode.
I felt like I had more to sayabout my intro and I didn't.
How did everyone do withdaylight savings?

(00:35):
I feel like I gained a weekrather than an hour.
And honestly, I am loving it.
I got so much more sleep.
I had a really productive day.
Oh man, it's been great.
And I'm so sorry if anyone'sstruggling with the adjustment
with pets and littles and all ofthose things.
Here's some fun updates about mypersonal life.

(00:56):
This weekend, Gray toured aroundDalhousie University and it gave
me all the feels.
I'm so proud.
I can't believe that we're atthe university stage.
It honestly felt like both 40years and like five minutes ago
that I was wrestling her into acar seat.
I know for any of you that arein the wrestling kids into a car

(01:18):
seat phase, it's It goes reallyfast, but also really slow.
And there's a lot of grief.
As much as I was really excitedabout her gaining independence,
I feel a lot of grief about itas we're counting down our last
months of her, you know, being,you know, high school age,

(01:40):
curfewed, all of those things.
Oh man.
It was lovely though.
It was a really beautiful fallday and Gray got to go do...
tours and lectures and be in thelab because she wants to go into
biology and obviously I gotproud Dalhousie mom socks.

(02:01):
I just can't imagine wearing at-shirt or sweatshirt that says
it.
So I've got myself some socks.
Lots is happening over here atBWMIA.
We have some fun news.
Early bird registration openedtoday for our MSP training.
So that's our maternal supportpractitioner training, which is
our fertility, birth, andpostpartum doula training all in

(02:24):
one.
This is for the March 2025session.
Use the code BIRTHBIRD, all one.
Don't worry, this will be in theshow notes as well.
And you're going to get$350 offthe training.
It will work for payment planstoo, so we'll just take off some
even amount for all of them.
I don't know, Kelly does thatmagic of discount codes.

(02:48):
This week we also released ablog.
It just felt like the right timeand it did really well.
It's blown up, so clearly y'allneeded it.
And it's a blog all about whatto do if your client has a baby
and doesn't call you you knowyou text them to check in on
them and they're like oh by theway we had the baby because it
can feel so so bad so we puttogether some soothing for your

(03:12):
soul all wrapped up in practicaltips for those birth doulas out
there If you haven't had thishappen, maybe get this just in
case because we know thatanytime we can bring that
expectation and reality closer.
I'm waving my hands in the airlike y'all can see.
But, you know, we want to closethat gap and then we have less,

(03:32):
you know, room for trauma andharm coming the smaller that gap
is.
Also, fun news, we've decided todo Black Friday this year.
We've not done it for a fewyears.
However, with the economy beingwhat it is still this like
never-ending recession we wantto bring it back to break down

(03:55):
those barriers for you allbecause you know access to
education is key and we have somany great tools to help you
build your business which is keyright now so we've got you on
this front so keep your eyes onthe site and your inbox for more
information we will be rollingthat out shortly okay this week
I had the pleasure of chattingwith my gal pal Kaylee Harris

(04:17):
And she is a flipping gem.

(04:47):
unofficially since 2010.
But I don't know how you canunofficially be a doula.
So she only gives herselfofficially since 2018.
I'm going to stretch it wayback.
She's built her business to thepoint of supporting hundreds of
families.
But she realized, as we all doalong the way, that it isn't
enough just to be an amazingdoula.
You also need to be a reallygood entrepreneur and CEO of

(05:11):
your life and your business.
So because of that, she's addedmentoring, small business owners
and doula entrepreneurs to herrepertoire to help others find
their clear path to a thrivingdoula business while avoiding
doula burnout.
And you know how passionate I amabout protecting you from
burnout.
So Kaylee and I both share thislove.

(05:33):
All right, y'all.
Here is our uncut, uncensored,potty mouth discussion.
And I know you are going toenjoy it as much as we did
recording it.
Welcome.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast.
Let's talk about some doulashit.

SPEAKER_02 (05:51):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's always lovely to talk aboutdoula shit with you.
And

SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
one of the things that we want to talk about as
two...
season doulas is for those ofyou who are newer or maybe
re-examining your doula businessand making it work as we're
wrapping up 2024 which I cannotbelieve we really want to talk
about systems at home and passon some of our pearls of wisdom

(06:22):
to all of you so you can startplanning for 2025 yeah

SPEAKER_02 (06:27):
And I mean, you know, one of my big soapboxes is
sustainability, because I thinkas doulas, like I sort of, I
think about it like labor,right?
Like I tell clients, if you'rehaving all these contractions
that are pre-labor or BraxtonHicks, like I don't want you to
have them because they're notgoing to bring your baby.
So I'd like for you to not wasteyour time on those, you know,

(06:49):
like I want you to stop walking,but yeah, like go chill, take a
shower, like hang out and justlet your body chill the fuck
out.
But if you're actuallycontracting, like, yeah, let's
work into that, right?
Let's help those be productive.
And when I think aboutsustainability and business, I'm
like, I would much rather youevaluate early on if you have
the things in place and thethings in your life that you

(07:11):
need to build, Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(07:36):
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
it's hard to pour.

(08:06):
and the fact I was gay.
But that's why I left thatmarriage.
I lasted maybe 14 months.
And so I'm going to speak tobeing a lesbian in a hetero
relationship for a minute,having a queer relationship for
now, like a lesbian relationshipmy whole adult life, but in a

(08:30):
single parenting kind of conceptfor...
the division of those things.
You've seen some super shit onyour journey, how you even came
to doula work.
It was a little bit like norunway, jump in, make the shit
work and have had struggles asyou've gone through where you

(08:53):
and your husband have had to getreally creative.
And so at times you've also beenthe primary breadwinner with
your doula work.
And I want to say that so thatneither of us ever had a like,
it's the cute extra money forour household.
Never, ever, ever.
That would be lovely.

(09:14):
I know.
Could you imagine being like, Igot booked and that's just an
extra$3,000 this month.
No.
No.
So I did want to lay that out sothat people understand that we
didn't have the luxury of liketesting and, you know, Seeing if
that worked, I'm doing cuteheads and shoulders.

(09:37):
You guys can't see me, but likemy head's going back and forth.
We had pedal to the metal, whichis not the best way to grow a
business from when you're inlike a frantic scarcity mode.
There's way more ease and joy ina business when you are not
needing it to feed you and houseyou.
But that's our journey.

(10:01):
Yeah.
So there, I've qualified thatfor us.
What would be your favorite,like, what do you think?
Okay, no, that's not favorite.
Let's start with what you thinkis the most important system for
sustainabilities for doulas.
I

SPEAKER_02 (10:21):
mean, I would say the number one, well, I think it
depends.
Like, I think we have twogroups.
One group is doulas who havechildren who are young enough,
they have to have another personwith them.
Right.
The other group is doulas whodon't have someone or some
animal or anything like that,that they're physically caring
for.
Right.
Because older children.

(10:41):
Right.
Well, I'm like older children.
I mean, for me right now, I havetwo teens and a tween and they
can like be left at home forlengths of time.
Right.
Like they can feed themselves,you know, they're safe at home
by themselves.
So if there's some time thatthey need to be here by
themselves, they can be.
When I started, they weretoddlers and early elementary

(11:01):
age.
They could not be home at all.
Like it was not legal for themto be home.
Right.
And so like the need to have oncall child care was I mean, I
say this a lot on my ownpodcast, like having a partner
who worked for himself and was agame changer.
And I cannot imagine doing thisif he had a job that was like,

(11:24):
no, you will not leave untilfive o'clock or whatever, right?
Because I could really be like,Oh, peace out.
Like she's in labor.
I got to go.
And he can be like, Oh, okay.
I mean, it was stressfulsometimes.
Right.
Like not ideal all the time, buthe didn't have someone else that
was saying like, no, you can'tleave work until five.
And then I'm screwed for threehours, you know?

(11:45):
So I think if you have smallpeople or if you have animals
that are really high needs oryou're caring for a family
member, that's very high need orsomething like that.
Right.
Yeah.
Having someone that can beavailable to you 24 hours a day
is for sure the hardest thing inmy mind for that group of folks.

SPEAKER_01 (12:05):
Yeah.
This is where the childless bychoice or by circumstance,
folks, you are winning.
And I know you're all sostressed about like, should I be
a doula without children?
You win this.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (12:17):
I mean, I would say this is not our topic today, but
you also win in the fact thatyou're not bringing your own
childhood or childbearing traumato this work.
There's so many reasons.

SPEAKER_01 (12:30):
No baggage, no comparison things, no stories to
swap.
Yeah.
You're just holding that amazingspace and getting to walk out
your door.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 (12:44):
exactly.
Exactly.
I mean, I would say, so for thecrowd that does not have people
relying on them, right?
Like I think the boundarysetting is the most important
thing because the doula friendsI have who are, who are either
single or like my husband callsit that our single years when we
were married, but didn't havechildren.

UNKNOWN (13:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
He's like, back when we were single, I'm like, we
were definitely married duringthat time, right?
Back when we didn't have smallpeople overlying.

SPEAKER_01 (13:13):
When we were single, we were in an exclusive
monogamous relationship.

SPEAKER_02 (13:18):
We had been together for years at that point.
You know, he's like, yeah, yeah,yeah.
When we were single, we had nobabies holding us down.

UNKNOWN (13:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (13:26):
I've been the real commitment started.
But I think what I've seen inalmost every friend who is a
doula who doesn't have either apartner or has a partner, but no
kiddos or no, you know, kids orpeople that need to be cared
for, they kind of run themselvesinto the ground, right?

(13:47):
They they work way too much.
And they I mean, especially ifthey're kind of in the same camp
as us, where they're they haveto make this work.
Like it is often then your onlyincome and they're like saying
yes to everybody and doingovernights way too many nights
in a row and that kind of stuffor doing overnights and births
and literally never sleeping,you know?
And so I feel like there's twocamps there, but the boundary

(14:11):
setting and having thescaffolding is still just as
important on both sides,

SPEAKER_01 (14:16):
you know?
Yeah.
Do you know what I noticed?
So I had my first birth Thisweek, in a while, since moving
to Nova Scotia.
And I'm more in the camp likeGrace 17.
Yeah.
I'm essentially single andchildless.
You're single, right?
And I've noticed that I say yesto even just this client.

(14:42):
And I'm the surrogate's doula.
But I also, the intended parentswere like, hey, could you stop
by?
And I was like, yeah, sure.
I'll swing by after.
Because I can.
And not like, oh, no, I have thebabysitter for 90 minutes.
So that postpartum checkup is...
She's done.
And I've visited them.
And like, I popped in to see howher spinning babies was going at

(15:05):
home.
Like things that my contractsbefore were two prenatals,
birth, one postpartum.
I've tripled that.
I might also really like themand they're right next to my
gym.
So like, yeah.
It feels extra easy.
Easy to pop by.
Easy to pop by.
But I'm surprised.
And I was like, I could see thatif this had been my life.

(15:26):
I mean, I started my doulapractice when Gray was 10 days
old.
And bonkers.
So I just couldn't do thosethings.
Not advised.
Yeah, don't.
When you should still be in bedresting.
Not as we do.
But I am noticing how fast andloose I am with my time with my

(15:46):
clients.
because I can just do what I

SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
want.

UNKNOWN (15:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:53):
Yeah.
Well, and I think, I mean, ifthis was the only thing in your
business that made you money,it'd be really easy to be like,
oh, now I can start like, I'lllike up those hours.
And I mean, there is some lovelyflexibility there where you can
be like, oh, I can work likecrazy for the next month.
And then I'll financially beable to do whatever to like make

(16:14):
up for what, you know, like,fill like you know pay a debt or
fill a hole that needs to befilled or like next month I have
a ton of travel or whatever youknow but also so often it just
continues because we let peoplehire us that are due in a couple
months and then we're like crapI've set myself up for this
until July you know and you'relike yeah you have eight months

(16:38):
of this you know and then you'relike well you And I mean, I
think the folks that I have seendo that legitimately last like
less than a year, you know,unless they get that reined in.
Like if they do not put up somesolid boundaries and hold them
firm, they're like, I don't knowif I can keep doing this.

(16:58):
I'm like, yeah, you can't likethis.
Like this is not sustainable.
And that's why you're burningout.
Not because of the work, becauseof how you're doing this work,
you know?

SPEAKER_01 (17:07):
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (17:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
What are some of the places that you advise
boundaries?
Let's make a little list foreveryone.

SPEAKER_02 (17:13):
Yeah.
I mean, I think one is withclients.
Like I think what you said, youknow, like how you're like, oh,
I can pop by.
You have the freedom to do that.
But if you started saying toclients like, oh, I'll see you
like all the time.
I'll come by just like randomly.
Yeah.
then no because you're settingup expectations that you also
then have to fulfill right andso having firm like this is when

(17:35):
i'll see you and it's how longthat visit goes and then like
holding that firmly for yourselfas well as for them is important
because then you're not likegiving your time away actually
for free you know like you'renot volunteering yourself for
extra things.
But if you have other people inyour life that love you, or that

(17:59):
need your care, even justemotionally, right?
Like my children mostly at thispoint are like, when are you
coming home?
Because I haven't seen you indays, you know, that I'm giving
time away from them as well.
And so like, I'm volunteeringthat from them without even
talking to them about it.
Like, I'm not saying, okay, 11year old daughter, like, do you
want your hair done thisweekend?

(18:19):
Or is it okay if I'm like gonefor an extra six hours seeing
clients, you know?
And so there's that piece thatlike, that's sort of like the
uncounted cost, if you will, ofthis work where we're like
giving of ourselves, but alsolike taking from the people that
we actually have in our livesthat we love and want to have
time with,

SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
you know?
So I would say one is packaging.
Those are great points.
Yeah, for sure.
Your packages and your contract.
Let's talk about some of theboundaries in your contract.
And I know some of the topicswe're going to cover.
I've seen like brawls break outin doula groups when people talk
about their contracts.
And I want to remind everybody.
how you do your business is yourbusiness and your clients are

(19:02):
autonomous adults that arereading the contract and if
they're agreeing to it thenthey're fine with it um and so
we we keep we keep thinking likewe're tricking clients with
these clauses um but like someof these clauses are the only
things that are going to makethis sustainable so let's start
with The 24-hour clause or the18-hour clause or the seven-hour

(19:26):
clause, whatever clause you putin it.
Do you want to break that downas one of the possible
boundaries in a doula business?
Yeah.
So

SPEAKER_02 (19:34):
in my mind, this kind of falls into two
possibilities.
One is you pay yourself wellenough to have someone else come
in if you've been there for ashit ton of time and you need to
go home and sleep.
Or...
Yeah.

(20:09):
I think something that we sortof have to figure out on our
own.
Like I know I have one dearfriend who's a doula who has
like a condition that means sheneeds to sleep every so many
hours, right?
She can't go longer than acertain amount of time.
Her clients know that when theyhire her.
And so that means she bringslike a blow up mattress, right?
Like she's like legitimatelyjust like tucking in at your

(20:30):
birth as well, or she's callingsomebody in, but she also has
that set up in her contract andmake sure people know that ahead
of time.
Before COVID, I always saidlike, I usually last like 18 to
24 hours and then I'll call in abackup if I need to, depending
on where things are, et cetera,et cetera.
But then COVID happened.

(20:52):
And I couldn't call in a backupbecause in the U.S.
hospitals, at least in the D.C.
area, once we were allowed in,we were the only one in and we
couldn't go.
Even if I left, I couldn't comeback as the same person.
So like a long birth, I wouldprefer to go nap and come back
myself than send a backup unlessthat person is unmedicated and

(21:14):
needs like hands on all thetime.
Right.

UNKNOWN (21:16):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (21:17):
But a birth that I...
If I leave, no one's going to bewith you.
I wasn't leaving.
So I just learned how to get myshit together and stay for
longer.
Most births, I'm not there formore than 24 hours.
But if I need to be, I can be.
And I know that about my body.
And so...
I have my contract set up whereI don't have a limit, but I also

(21:39):
charge more than almost anybodyelse in the DC area because of
that.
And I tell people that like Icharge this in part because I
will stay with you as long as Ineed to.
And you're not going to getcharged extra because of that.
Now for my team, I have a 24hour clause because I want them
to have the freedom to go homeand for me to be able to pay the

(22:01):
next person who comes.
And so I think it dependsentirely on what your body can
handle, what kind of births yousupport.
If you're supporting births thatyou're attending really early,
like you're arriving with themfor an induction, you've got to
have some scaffolding aroundthat.
Otherwise, you're going to spendthree days in that place.

SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
You will never go home again.
And

SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
your hourly rate is going to be very sad.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
Yeah.
And what I also like tohighlight with contracts is you
can put stuff in and they'relike insurance policies and then
never use it.
So I always had a 24 hourclause.
I would now change it to 18because of just aging.
I like can't do 24 hours or Ijust don't want to.
I don't recover as well.
Yeah.

(22:54):
I've never used either of them.
I've attended hundreds ofbirths.
I've never one time calledsomebody in.
I've soldiered through 50, 60,70 hour births because I was
like so committed and they wereunmedicated and we were like in
this journey together.
But- Having the option, and Iknow a lot of doulas can get

(23:14):
really upset about it, beinglike, well, then people are
going to feel like they'rewatched, and then people are
going, you know, and you candecide that.
If you know you have anunder-resourced family that,
like, made it work to pay yourcontract, then you could
probably do them a solid andstick it out, and, like, not add
on more.
If you have somebody who, youknow, is a have, relative to a

(23:35):
have-not, and you're fading, andyou know they'd have better
care, and they would probablynot notice$500 being tacked onto
their bill to get the nextperson in, then you have that
option of them having reallysolid care from the backup who
they also know because you'vedone a great job of introducing
everybody.
So it's not a shock if you usethis insurance policy.

(23:55):
So I like pointing that part outbecause people, there's so many
like naysayers about it.
And I'm like, then you justdon't use that clause for that
family.
Like, you know, or you justdon't, but you can if you need
to.
Yeah.
For sure.
So I think that's one of theimportant clauses and boundaries

(24:15):
that you can build right in.
I mean, having a solid contractfor starters in and of itself is
a really great boundary.
And just being like really clearabout what things look like if
they don't call you, inclementweather, all of those things
have those boundary spots.

(24:37):
For sure.
What are some of the otherplaces that you like?

SPEAKER_02 (24:41):
I mean, contract wise, I think very clear when
and how or if anyone would everget a refund is a big deal and
reasons that you can terminatethe contract.
Now, I joke with a doula friendof mine that like all the
clauses in our contracts arebecause of shitty clients that
we've had.
Yeah, that's kind of true.

(25:01):
You know, I mean, that's like ifyou have an infectious disease,
I decide if I come to you ornot.
And those are all fromexperiences.
Yes.
Because people are like, you'restill coming.
Right.
And I'm like, no, why would Icome?
Like you, you have, like, wetalked about this.
You're currently coughing upCOVID.

(25:22):
Like I'm not coming to yourspace in person.
Also your hospital, like in theastronaut suits.
Like why, why would I come toyou?
Yeah.
But, but things like you'reabusive, right?
Like in some way, my husband andI were actually talking about
this this morning and, Becauserecently in my group, we had a
client partner who was kind ofan asshole, not really to the

(25:45):
doula, but to his wife, to hispartner.
And we were like, this is aweird scenario for us to handle.
And it was one person at a timeat their house, one doula at a
time.
And he was like, I feel like youmaybe need a clause in there
that's like, if we're witnessingabuse or we're witnessing, what
does that look like and how dowe respond to it?

(26:05):
And also the ability to be like,we can fire you and not work
together and not give you arefund because you've been an
asshole.
I had a client once that firstout one of the doulas on my team
who was her doula and then waslike, okay, we're ready for you
to join us.
I

SPEAKER_01 (26:22):
was like, no, no, no.
I have a horror story.
I wish I had this clause.
I'm writing this down.
Everybody look at this.
I have an asshole.

SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
Yeah, I have it now.
I'm

SPEAKER_01 (26:35):
adding this.
Okay.
So I'm going to take you guys ona journey.
Let's go back 2008.
Bianca is had.
So this is, I'm going to guys,I'm going to actually tell the
truth.
So I'm going to have the story.
I told my clients, I'm going tosay what actually happened
because we're well past thismoment.
Yeah.
So, um, I had been up fightingbecause I was in a domestic

(26:57):
violence situation, chaos,crisis, newborn, like worst
situation.
That stress headache, like thatlacking safety.
I locked my bedroom door with mybaby and I turned my ringer off
because this was before like youactually had to turn your phone
off and on because this was likesmartphones weren't a thing yet.
And so I turned it off and I waslike, I've set my real alarm,

(27:19):
like lock alarm.
And I was like, I'm just goingto sleep for two hours because I
hadn't slept and I was on call.
And so, of course, in that time,the client calls.
And but we had a system whereyou have a primary and a
secondary.
And so they called my secondarywho we did all prenatal care
together.
So it wasn't like, oh, thisbackup who they had their name.

(27:40):
They called her.
She went to the birth.
Everything was fine.
I turned my phone on.
a whole bunch of missed calls.
Like I like panic, blah, blah,blah.
So I told him I was sick becauseI didn't know what to do in my
little 26 year old stressed outbrain.
I was.
Yeah.
And so fast forward.
Yeah.
They get pregnant again.
So two years later and they callus back and they're like, we're

(28:02):
pregnant and we want Bianca onthe file.
And so they called me to thehouse and they like berated me.
And they were like, we need tomake sure that you're not going
to disappoint us again.
We booked you and you didn'tcome, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah,for sure.
And they did it in front of mynew secondary, who's one of my
staff.
So since then I built Bebo Mia.
We're a big organization now.

(28:24):
We're probably the top doulagroup.
Group in Toronto at the time.
And so I was like, oh, this islike a bad look.
But I was like, I'm going toteach her what it looks like.
So I was like, yeah, I'm reallysorry you felt disappointed by
me.
I promise I'll be there, blah,blah, blah.
Well, didn't they just lovebullying me through their
pregnancy?
In fact, they called me at threeo'clock in the morning and they
said, go to the hospital.

(28:45):
And I waited there.
And they did this to me multipletimes to make sure that I was
going to get there.
And I'd be sitting there.
fucking cold in my car inunderground parking at the
hospital paying$27.
But I was too scared to do the,give them the false, like the
false call fee that we had.
Like if you go and you're not inlabor and we have to go home,

(29:07):
it's$150.
But I like, and they playedchicken with me like this
through their whole thing.
And I wished I had the assholeclause because they just
tortured me.
And then they tortured mypostpartum team, which wasn't
me.
And I was like, you guys areassholes.
You're rich dinguses.
And if I'd had that clause, Ifor sure would have had the

(29:29):
grounds to like fire them.
But like people, there arepeople out there that will do
these kinds of shitty things topeople in helping and healing
fields because we're consideredlowly to some people.
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (29:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
our amazing work is looked down upon as service work
for them.
Yeah.
And, um, Oh my gosh.
I did that.
That's terrible.
I was still in my twenties.
So I didn't know how to be like,you're terrible people.
And I needed the money.
And I was a single parent and,and they made me and I'd be
fucking sitting there and I'dhave a call in my, in the night

(30:09):
supports.
Cause I was a baby.
I

SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
was going to say for your childcare.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (30:14):
And so I'd have this, like, I got to go.
And I'd just be sitting at thehospital because they were
testing it to make sure I'd getthere in time.

SPEAKER_02 (30:21):
That's so fucking awful.

UNKNOWN (30:24):
I know.

SPEAKER_02 (30:25):
That's so

SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
terrible.
I know.

SPEAKER_02 (30:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (30:28):
Yeah.
If only I had your assholeclause.
Because there's people that willdo these things.
And I know it's hard to imagine.
But I think you're right that wealways add things based on the
experiences we have.
Our contracts get thicker andlonger and more expensive.
More, just

SPEAKER_02 (30:46):
more.

SPEAKER_01 (30:46):
Yep.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (30:49):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, I think a bigpiece of that too is like
valuing yourself, right?
Like I was, I was, that wholesituation was playing out with
the doula on my team and I wassaying, okay, I'm kind of
weighing, like juggling throughmy head because we didn't have
the clock at the time.
And I was like, all right, well,what do I do?
Like, do I go to them insteadand like take the brunt of it
myself since I don't want tosend my team member?

(31:10):
I'm not sending anybody else,you know?
And then security was called onthem at the hospital.
And I was like, yeah, I'm not, Idon't have a security team.
Like I'm not going and I don'thave anybody I can call.
I'm going to be stuck in theroom with this couple, you know?
And, and I was like, yeah, no.
So then I'm, then I'mresearching, like, is it okay to

(31:32):
terminate a contract?
Right.
Can I fire them from mybusiness?
Turns out, yes, I totally can.
I had to refund them theirentire package costs, which is,
sucks and that's why I have thecontract clause now but that was
how I could legally do it sinceI didn't have that clause in
their contract and now I ofcourse have that in everyone's
contract but I still had thefreedom to fire them you know

(31:55):
but I just had to do it with afull yeah full refund which was
a painful situation but but Iwas like I'm not like I'm not
putting myself in that situationand I'm not sending any of my
team members there you know nono No, because I also was
telling at the time I wastelling the other doula, I'm
like, imagine something goeswrong, right?

(32:15):
Like what happens?
Something goes wrong in thisbirth.
They're going to blameeverybody.
Like I would much rather pay youthis, this chunk of money back
than have you have an emergency,which they ended up having and
then blame us as part of thatprocess.
No, absolutely not.

(32:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (32:36):
Yeah, I've had births that went a little bit
nuts that the dad was an activeuse and he was just like,
getting high consistently at thehospital and then it got like
chaotic and it was funnyactually well that part wasn't
funny that was terrible um andbut but the nurse that was
watching it thought I handled itreally well I don't remember

(32:57):
what I did at the time um I'mnow and um and I ended up
getting eight clients from shebooked me and then she referred
me through all her friends andshe's actually like a kickoff
for like one of my most robustarms of my of my like referral
tree um that's From this likeabsolute chaotic, stressful,

(33:17):
active use, domestic violence,hospital experience.
And it worked out quite well forme.
Not so much for this mom andbaby, which after they got it
safe and separated from thatdad.
But the nurse was quiteimpressed.
So

SPEAKER_02 (33:37):
I

SPEAKER_01 (33:37):
mean, hey, tip to 28 year old Bianca.

SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
Our unexpected, unexpected referral sources.

SPEAKER_01 (33:49):
I know for sure.
Yeah.
The contracts is a lot of placeand, and yeah.
But we also have to haveboundaries with the people in
our lives.
Yes.
So we've got boundaries, theirclients boundary through our
contracts.
Let's bring it into the, intothe home, the home life
situation.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (34:07):
Yeah.
I mean, and yeah, this, again,I'm very much the person that's
like, it looks different foreveryone, which is, which is
true.
You know, the thing is that itneeds to, it needs to work.
That's what it means.
It doesn't need to look like itlooks for me or for you or for
an individual person.
It needs to work well.
So for us, what it usually lookslike, we currently live in DC.

(34:30):
We have our single car family.
And our kids can take publictransit, but the middle
schoolers, we have two middleschoolers and a high schooler.
And the middle schoolers, wedon't feel great about sending
them all the way to middleschool by themselves on public
transit because it's kind of alot of transfers and whatnot.
And so if I take the car to aberth, they have to leave almost

(34:51):
an hour earlier to get to themetro in time.
And so it changes their day alot.
So a big thing that we do iseither my husband will take me
and drop me at a birth or I willtake a Lyft or an Uber unless
it's a birth that's like way farout.
Like I sometimes go to thislovely birth center like an hour
away.
When I go there, I don't lift orUber because it's like a hundred

(35:13):
and something dollars.
So I just can't swallow.

SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
Yes, each way.

SPEAKER_02 (35:20):
But then my family knows like, okay, this is the
one that's out at the birthcenter.
So when this person goes intolabor, I'm going to have the car
and they hate it, right?
Like the kids, especially,they'll just be like, oh, the
person went into labor.

SPEAKER_01 (35:34):
Why couldn't it be Saturday?

UNKNOWN (35:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (35:40):
Exactly.
But also like my husband iswilling to just be like, okay,
great.
Like you go do your thing.
We got this.
And I don't have to do anything.
Like I have to do zero prep forthe house.
I have to do zero prep for thekids.
I do not have to think aboutfood for them.
Like nothing.
There have been a few timeswhere I was about to do like a

(36:01):
big online grocery shopping orsomething that I'll do that and
send it to the house because Iwas like working on it on my
phone.
But I can also be like, hey,babe, we have nothing for
dinner.
And he's like, okay, great.
Like, we got it.
Even if he's on the train.
He's like, yeah, I'll go toTrader Joe's after I drop the
kids off.
Like, and it's a lot of work forhim, but he's willing to do it.

(36:21):
And at this point, all of mykids love that I do something
that I love and love that I workfor myself.
And so, you know, there aretimes where babies group up that
they're just like, oh my God,please tell me no one else is
due.
You know what I'm like, sorry.
They're like, you have been gonefor five days straight You know,
I'm like, I know.
I'm so sorry.

(36:42):
But I also get home andsometimes I feel shitty.
Like I want to hang out with youguys.
I've been gone so long.
And my husband's like, go tosleep.
Like you're gonna, you're gonnalike hang out with us for 44
minutes and then you're gonnafizzle.

SPEAKER_01 (36:54):
Yeah.
And it won't be fun anymore.
Like

SPEAKER_02 (36:57):
you're falling asleep at the table.
Like go to bed.
So I also know that I can belike completely free of guilt in
that scenario and be like, Ilove you guys so much or call
him and be like, Hey, I knowit's 1130, but the baby came and
I need you to come back and get

SPEAKER_03 (37:13):
me.

SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
And he's like, all right, I'm coming.
I'll be there in 45 minutes, youknow?
And so that like, I have notonly the logistics of not having
to deal with that, but also Iknow that I have the support
from them.
So they don't mind.
Like there's times where it isannoying or they're like
frustrated, you know, but Inever come home with them then

(37:34):
treating me like shit becauseI've been gone.
you know, or like getting backat me for having to like, all of
a sudden drop, like, he's neverlike, well, I missed seven
meetings.
Cause you had a bit, I mean,it's not that kind of childish
ridiculousness, you know, whichI think is vital.
And it less, I think that's moreimportant than like, what do you

(37:55):
do with your partner to set thatup?
Like, do you have a partnerwho's willing to do that?
That's the most important piecein my mind.
And then the logistics can beset up, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (38:05):
But because you both see that it's both your work,
it's both your home, it's bothyour children.
So when I had a husband, oh myGod, that's so funny to say.
When I was straight for twoyears, I...
I can paint my picture.
And if anybody wants like a 90minute deep dive of how much
easier it is single parentingover having a shitty partner,

(38:27):
there's an episode in season onethat Marissa and I talk about
how much easier our lives wentwhen we left our husbands.
But when I used to have to go tobirth, when I would go to birth
and I was busy, like I was fiveto six a month.
So like full, full time birth tobirth with a baby.
And so I, Right.

(38:50):
Right.

(39:16):
But even if you guys are like,oh, my husband isn't abusive,
when you have to negotiate foryour time or you have to do all
this prep for children you sharetogether, he's not looking good.
And so if you're finding thatthey can't competently know
where clothes are, that if theydon't know what the bedtime
routine, like you might need toeither invite them to get

(39:39):
comfortable with how your houseruns.
And if they're not interested,It's a good indicator of that.
It's probably going to be veryhard to do this work because not
that I'm telling you to leaveyour husband, but like, you
know, you might consider it, butlike the tragedy of
heterosexuality.
But like, honestly, when I left,I would hire somebody.

(40:01):
Yeah.

(40:31):
my landlord was a slumlord butit meant I had rooms so I
actually had doulas that theystayed at my house with their
children because then any of uscould leave and we knew somebody
would be there and it worked outit was such a cool community
setup I know right it was likethe best that was the best part
of my career of like forever.
It was like a really warm andfuzzy time for me.

(40:52):
And I really loved it.
And, and I didn't have to havethose stressful texts of like,
how much longer do you thinkit's going to be?
And those texts, I rememberthinking, like, I'd get them,
I'd get them at like 630 in themorning being like, how much
longer because I have to leavefor work at nine, and my client
would be seven centimeters.
And I'm like, I, I don't knowwhat to do.

(41:14):
And they're like, I told you, Ihave to leave at nine.
And and that kind of feeling oflike, I'm texting seeing my
friends and smartphones weren'teffective.
Like I had to leave the roombecause there was no signal in
the hospital.
Like this is back in the earlymid 2000s.
And so like, it was sostressful, but I listened to my
students share these samestories that they're like, you

(41:34):
know, he gets really upset.
He doesn't like that.
He doesn't know when I'm goingto be home.
He doesn't know how things go.
He doesn't know how to get thekids to school or daycare or
whatever it is.
And so real talk, like you'vegot some very big conflicting
pieces that you want to lay outwhich is a career as a birth
worker and a partner who doesn'tshow up in any kind of equity

(41:55):
just with their basicmaintenance, let alone the
journey of being the partner ofa birth worker.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 (42:02):
yeah.
Well, and before we hit record,one thing that you said was
like, do you like this work oryour partner?
Which one?

SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
Pick one.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (42:14):
That's a legitimate choice, right?
And I mean, I do want to say,There are shitty partners in all
sorts of marital arrangementsand partnerships.
So it's not only men that areassholes, but for the journey
that we're talking about, it'sbeen men.
So that's why we're discussingthat.
But also, I think if, I mean,there are scenarios in which you

(42:38):
have limits on the support thatyou have, and then you really do
have to be serious aboutquestioning if you can do this
work on call.
Now that doesn't mean you can'tdo any of this work, right?
There are some parts of thiswork that's not on call.
That's not get up at two in themorning and stay for God knows
how long at a birth.
And so that piece might be thepiece that you cannot do or that

(43:00):
you have to have a lot of likeboundaries around, right?
But also like, you you need tonot live in a fantasy that you
can do that if you do notactually have the support to do
that right because really if youhave children especially they're
the ones that are going tosuffer like they're home with
the asshole partner who likedoesn't know how to take care of

(43:22):
them or doesn't want to be takencare of them and the resents the
fact that they're taking care ofthem Where, like, I always knew,
like, my daughter is superpissed that I'm still gone, but
my husband is managing that.
And he's not adding to it,right?
He's not, like, also superpissed that I'm still gone, you
know?
And part of that is back toboundary setting where I'm,
like, if a baby comes duringgraduation, I'm going to

(43:44):
graduation and a backup is goingto the birth, right?
So...
That kind of stuff too, wherelike if you miss your kid's
birthday every year, you need tohave that in your contract that
you don't go to births on yourkid's birthday.
And if it's your kid's birthday,you have someone lined up to be
a backup for you.
Like that's a boundary thatneeds to happen so people don't
hate you,

SPEAKER_01 (44:02):
right?
Yeah.
I have swipe copy that gives youthe script.
I have swipe copy.
It's free on the website.
That's like, what do you saywhen you don't want to miss the
wedding?
Like the whole start to finish.
Pro tip, don't tell them whatit's for.
Just tell them you have abackup.
And there are systems that youcan put in place.
So both my backup and I had, welived in domestic violence

(44:24):
simultaneously, but we, shecouldn't leave in the day.
And I, no, sorry.
She, yeah, that's right.
I could do days and she could donights.
And so...
we just did our contract thatwe, like we would cycle through.
And so if somebody like at, atthe 11th and they just knew, and

(44:46):
our clients actually reallyliked it because we each had a
partner that found one or theother intolerable.
And so we, That worked outreally well for us.
And that might be the case ifyou live with a visible or
invisible disability, you're ona medication cycle, like, you
know, those, you can set up ascaffold with that.

(45:07):
We also in our MSP program, Iknow it sounds like a plug, it's
not.
But we talk about the like, Ithink we have a list of 47 other
things you can do with yourdoula certification that's not
on call work.
Yeah.
And we go through like all thesereally robust things.
birthy businesses that areamazing.
And that does not you don't haveto be up at two o'clock in the

(45:30):
morning.

SPEAKER_02 (45:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I think like, youknow, also figuring out for
yourself, but for your children,for your family, like for all of
those people, like what, whatare the things that you need to
have boundaries around?
Take some time.
And so this is where like, Yourbusiness is your business.

(45:51):
And ideally, you have some timeto be like, oh, well, now that
I've done that, I know that I'drather not do that again.
That's how I know I needovernight care with postpartum

SPEAKER_01 (46:02):
clients.
Me too.
Get out of here.
And there's people that live for

SPEAKER_02 (46:08):
it.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
There are people on my team thatthat's all they do.
And I did it with this one thefirst time I ever did it.
It was like an emergency.
They need someone tonight.
And they, you know, their otherdoula can start in a few days
and whatever.
And I was just like, yeah, sure.
It sounds great.
And it's like a decent amount ofmoney all at once.
That baby was so fussy.

(46:29):
And I was like, you know what Ididn't anticipate is that my
parenting was like curl up inbed with this kid with my boob.
And then I was just like, whatthe fuck am I supposed to do
with you all night?
Like, I have nothing to give youthat you want.
Like, I can't just get in withyou.
I can't give you my boobs.
I can't go sleep with you.
Like, I'm so tired.

(46:49):
I'm so tired.
The whole house is dark.
So it's not at all the same.
I have no adrenaline like at abirth, you know, I was just
like, never again.

SPEAKER_01 (47:01):
Yeah, I've done like maybe four and they've all been
because my team couldn't make itlike I was not the choice and I
got there I mean I teach peoplehow to do overnights like it's
not the course and so I cantheoretical slay an overnight
reality and I also have the goodgirl thing in me that I like I'm

(47:22):
learning this I tried I triedreally hard at my last birth but
that I don't always have to beworking to show that like I'm
worth that$3,700 for my doulapackage yeah and so I could
never stop moving like I neversit at my birth I'm like
cleaning tidy cook Like I neverstop.
And so I, overnights, a lot ofthe doulas I know they sleep and

(47:44):
I like couldn't even fathomsleeping because then I'm not
working.
I could be doing light laundryand quiet tidying.
And so I did that.
And I was like, this is bonkers.
3am knowing you're only likehalfway there.
It's

SPEAKER_02 (48:01):
terrible.

SPEAKER_01 (48:03):
Yeah.
And if anybody wants to do that.
go yeah that sounds great foryou I

SPEAKER_02 (48:09):
mean and I have friends who are like I love that
work because I know like onTuesday I'm gonna be up all
night with that baby and soMonday I sleep a whole bunch and
I'm like okay great they're likeat least it's not a surprise
right like your side of it islike surprise someone's in labor
and you're like oh shit Ihaven't slept all day And I'm
like, oh yeah, no, that doessuck.

SPEAKER_01 (48:28):
That does, yeah.
But I still choose it.
I mean, but honestly, you guys,you can have a very lucrative
overnight business because thegoing rate is between two and
400 a night.
And so, and if you're-

SPEAKER_02 (48:42):
Oh, no,$2,400 a night.
Yes, not an hour.
I was like, wait a second.

SPEAKER_01 (48:46):
No, no, no, a night.
Oh, my God.
I would super sign up.
I'll be as tired as you want meto be.
No,$2,400 a night.
And if there's multiples, itgoes up from there.
So, I mean, I know that if thatworks because then your husband
or your partner or yoursignificant other is at home
with your children and you'reworking through that slot, and

(49:06):
if you do four of those in anight, you're making anywhere
from– like by the end of themonth, you've made five to
$6,000.
If that was math was right.
It felt right.

SPEAKER_02 (49:16):
I'm so impressed that you're trying to do this
math on the fly.

SPEAKER_01 (49:22):
Lots of money.
I know.
Like depends if you made, ifyou, okay, if you did four,
let's go the high end for their400 a night.
Let's say you did four.
That's 1600.
That's 6,400 bucks at the end ofthe month for sleeping time.
And some babies are, do sleepthe whole time and you can sleep
um you just have to make sureyou unlearn your worthiness

(49:46):
being tied to work which I havenot yet in my 44 years of life
but other people are fuckingcool with it they like bring a
pillow I left like the the theyhad um around the clock care one
of these clients and I had tofill in and their overnight
doula was leaving who worked forme but only like to fill in for
giant contracts and she had likea full like duvet and pillow

(50:10):
like she went to bed and I waslike

SPEAKER_03 (50:13):
what

SPEAKER_01 (50:14):
yeah I like bring my book and I sit cold on the couch
and like come on come on Spraguestay awake do some more work um
but yeah so you know you couldmake between four and four yeah
four thousand six thousand amonth in the night time Yeah.
Totally.

SPEAKER_02 (50:33):
Right.
But also, I mean, going back tolike, if you have a partner that
can handle the nights and yourkiddos are sleeping or you don't
have kids.
Right.
And that makes it work likeworkable for you.
That's a way to do this work.
You know, also, I mean, I knowtons of doulas that do daytime
care between 10 and two or nineand three, like depending on the
school hours of their kiddos.

(50:53):
And that's like, you know, theydo drop off.
They do daytime care.
They do pick up and that's theirwork.
And again, you can make thatwork.
I mean, I also very firmly amlike, if this is your full-time
job, you need more than onestream of it.
So maybe don't only do that.
But still, you don't have to beon call.
That's not the thing.
And that's the least sustainablepart of this job.

(51:15):
So if you are a doula that doesbirth and other things,
eventually being on call forbirths is going to have to be a
smaller percentage of yourbusiness revenue and your time
Yeah.
Yeah.
for

SPEAKER_01 (51:35):
sure and you could set up a whole beautiful six
seven figure digital business ifyou want call me I'll help you
set it up but like that's alsovery very possible or having all
of the above as we're sayingmultiple streams are real nice
and it gives some flexibilitybecause who knows when weird
shit like a pandemic is going tohit again and you've got other

(51:56):
things to fall back on yeahexactly oh god I'm so sorry for
everybody who has a shittypartner Yeah.
It sucks.
Yeah.
It's super sucks.
It's like bleeds into so manyareas of your life of suck.
Yeah.
It takes over everything.
Truly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and we have the research onthis cause I know we're all

(52:19):
nerds and we like some evidencethat people think it's your
children.
That is why your business isgoing to fail.
It's not.
Yeah.
The Harvard Business Reviewreleased studies, I don't know,
I'm going to say 2014, and thathusbands are the number one
reason why women inentrepreneurship, their business

(52:42):
fails.

UNKNOWN (52:43):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 (52:44):
I'll just leave that for you, hetero folks.
You're welcome.
On that note.
On that note.

SPEAKER_02 (52:50):
All girls can be single and lesbian.

SPEAKER_01 (52:55):
Yeah, single and or lesbians or have a wildly,
wildly supportive partner thatsees your business and your work
time as important and not likethey think you can do meetings
with a kid on your lap or theirhome.
Oh my God, the number of peopleeither on my team or that I work
with or that both book consult.

(53:15):
Like, like for people that doconsult or like business
consulting with me, it's acouple hundred bucks an hour.
And I'm like, can you put yourbaby somewhere else?
Like I'm, I'm super here for it.
Cause kid businesses, but like,I bet you'll get more value out
of this.
And I see there's a man walkingin the background.
Do you think they could take thebabies so that we could do this

(53:36):
thing that you've paid for withme?

SPEAKER_02 (53:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (53:39):
Yeah.
Like, Bunkers.
So you're for sure, yourfoundation has to include that
this work matters.
This work is important.
The same way you wouldn't dropyour kid at your partner's
office, classrooms, OR, side ofthe road, plumbing site, like

(54:00):
whatever the heck business thatthey do, that you wouldn't drop
your baby or the laundry orgroceries or food to be cut.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (54:12):
that those things are separate.

SPEAKER_02 (54:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (54:15):
Yeah.
And all valued.

SPEAKER_02 (54:17):
And I mean, I think also it's worth saying that
like, there are differentseasons of this, right?
So you're in parenting.
If we're, I mean, I know a lotof this conversation is around
having kids and needingscaffolding around those kids
having care, but also like, youknow, the kids change and what
kind of care they need from you.
And like, you know, the age ofmy children is, all of their

(54:41):
discussion with me is at like 930 PM when they're already
supposed to be in bed.
Like that's where they, that'swhen they're like come alive,
you know?
And they're just like, I have 27life problems.
And I'm like, what have we beendoing all day?
Like when I was like, how areyou?
And you're like, fine.
How

SPEAKER_01 (54:57):
was school?
How did your test go?
How, how did that work?
Did you end up talking to yourfriend about yesterday?
What happened?
Did you make plans for theweekend?
Do you know if you're going toaccept that thing?
Yeah, no.
No, 9.30 to

SPEAKER_02 (55:10):
9.45.
I just haven't seen you all day.
I'm like, I've been here.
Like, you haven't seen mebecause you don't want to see
me.

SPEAKER_01 (55:22):
That quote is the same.
Oh, I just thought it was greatbecause she's so high needs in
that way.
But she's always like, I haven'teven spent any time with you.
And I was like, dude, you're myonly roommate now.
We're just literally, we didthings, we walked the dog, we
cooked together, we did dishestogether, we ate together.
You and me.

SPEAKER_02 (55:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then you're like, no, it'snot.
It's something about the teenageyears.
I don't know.
I don't know what it is, butthat means like my kiddos during
the day, right?
Like I'll text them.
If I go to a birth in the middleof the night, I'll text them
like, have a great day atschool.
I love you guys.
And they're like, okay.

UNKNOWN (55:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (55:59):
great thanks guys like if I'm gone for like a day
and a half they might text melike god are you ever coming
back you know or my daughterwill be like how many
centimeters even is she eightshe's like oh she hasn't even
started pushing I'm like oh mygod so I mean so there's a

(56:21):
difference right we're like whenshe was really little I started
this work she was like And shehad no concept.
So she would be pissed at me fordays afterwards.
Cause she would be like, youleft, you never came back.
Like you didn't tell me you wereleaving, you know?
And I would just be like introuble with her for so long.
But at that point she also likeslept half the night in our bed.

(56:43):
And so she'd be like, come intobed and be like, where is mommy?
Like, how dare you?
Shafted, shafted again.
Yeah.
And she even told me at onepoint, she was probably like
five or six.
She's like, you just want tohang out with your clients.
You don't even like us.
So, I mean, this is somethingthat you, if you're listening to

(57:04):
this and you're saying toyourself, like, oh, I have a
baby that's like eating from mybody still, or like sleeps with
me, needs me here at nighttime.
then maybe you are doing daytimework with families until that
shifts.
I started this on-call lifeafter I had weaned her and she
was mostly not sleeping with mein my bed.
And so then I had the, like thatlogistical piece taken away that

(57:28):
I didn't have anyone relying onme for actual food from my body,
right?
That my body would be gone andthey would still eat.
But that was a really likeshort-lived time.
I mean, it felt like forever.
Right.
Right.
Right.

(58:03):
That's part of the beauty ofworking for yourself is you can
do that.
You can say like, okay, now mykid is older.
And so therefore I'm only goingto do this kind of work or I'm
shifting away from that thingthat I don't really like, but
worked for me for a while, youknow?

SPEAKER_01 (58:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (58:20):
Yeah.
I think that's very true.
I remember when Gray, when Graywas...
She had to be about like threeor four.
I might have shared this on thepodcast, so bear with me, y'all.
But Dr.
Sears was coming to do a talkfor the Babel Mia students.
And so we had booked this state,like this, I said stadium, no,
but this like auditorium.

(58:41):
Football stadium.
Yeah, football stadium.
When we filled fucking GM place.

UNKNOWN (58:47):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (58:47):
Back when we had

SPEAKER_02 (58:49):
millions of

SPEAKER_01 (58:50):
people.
Yeah, when I was a millionairefor Dr.
Sears, when we were hungry tosee that So anyway, we had hired
postpartum doulas.
And so the parents could dropoff their children and watch Dr.
Sears do this talk.
And so I was bringing Gray.
And I don't know how it workedout because I would have done

(59:10):
like a ton of births by thistime.
But she always had care, likechosen family time.
like like a pretty small groupthat had rotated through and it
worked out stressful for me andpretty terrible but like had
mostly worked out so anywaywe're driving and i'm prepping
her like so gray we're gonna goto this place it's an auditorium
um you're going to go to thisroom with children and they're

(59:34):
going to take care of you.
And you're going to know a lotof the people cause they're like
mommy's doulas.
Um, so they're babel Miapostpartum doulas, but they're
going to take care of you.
And so I'm like getting herready and she's sitting in her
car seat in the back.
Yeah.
She must've been well three.
And she like was attached to meall the time.
She was still like full-timebreastfeeding, like slept with
me.
I wore her on my back all thetime.
Like she was like real fuckingclingy.

(59:55):
And so we're driving.
So I'm like really like gettingher ready.
And she's like, um, So you'redropping me at an orphanage.
And I was like, no, I will begetting you after.
Like, no, it's not.
It's called daycare.
And lots of children go to this.
And it's not even daycare.
It's like parent drop offbabysitting for two

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:19):
hours.

UNKNOWN (01:00:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:21):
Yeah, but I don't have to stay in there with you.
Like you're supposed to be ableto leave your child at the ball
pit in Ikea with the buzzer.
But oh no, I had to stay andwatch.
And so she was like, what isthis, an orphanage?
And I was like, it is not anorphanage.
Yes, that's exactly right.
Dramatic.

(01:00:42):
I'm coming home.
You'll be coming back with me.
I'm just doing a talk in thedaytime.
You have to come and do thisthing.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:51):
Oh, man.
See, I also have to know thetype of kid you have.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:56):
Yeah, if you have a spicy child.

UNKNOWN (01:01:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:03):
No, my 11-year-old Emerus is very similar to that.
And she was probably likefive-ish.
And I left her a note on thefridge because she would get so
pissed at me.
And I'd be like, it was hours.
I'm like, there's 24 hours youcan check off.
And I'll for sure be back beforeyou get to the bottom of it.
A famous last words, right?

(01:01:23):
And so she checked this off.
I bet that didn't happen.
I bet

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:29):
you were gone longer.
You liar, liar.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:34):
I got home from that birth at like 27 hours.
And my husband was just like,what did you do?
He's like, the last three hourshave been absolute hell.
And Amherst was just like,everything's a lie.
You lie.
It's all terrible.
And I was like, I'm so sorry.
I was like, I had, I had backuplined up where I was like, okay,

(01:01:56):
at 24 hours, I'm going to leave.
Like, I'm going to leave around23.
I'll be home.
And then I couldn't call them.
And I was like, fuck.
I was like, I'm really sorry.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:08):
Break up the boxes.
He

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:12):
was so mad.
And he was like, do not ever.
I was like, I'm so sorry.
I thought it would help.
I thought it was going to begood.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:21):
I love the direction you went in that and it just
failed.
Of course.
It could have been so good.
Mom's dead.
That's the only reason.
Yes.
For the high anxiety children.
Yeah.
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (01:02:37):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:38):
Yep.
Oh, never coming home.
This is it.
I know it would happen one day.
It would desert me.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:43):
She's gone forever.
Oh, see everybody.
It's fun being a doula withchildren, childless doulas by
choice or by circumstance.
Take this in.
Right.
You don't have to deal with anangry

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:58):
four-year-old that

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:58):
thinks they're going to an orphanage.
Or that their mom is deadbecause they tick 24 boxes and
she's still not home.

UNKNOWN (01:03:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:07):
And she's not home.
And then she gets home and wantsto sleep.
So super selfish.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:11):
Yeah.
I know.
What a bad bum.
Oh, that's another one of thethings y'all to do like our
quick, our rapid fire wrap up ofother boundary things.
Please build in your self care.
Please build in like your fee ishas to include your therapy,
your chiropractor, your massagetherapy.
Yeah.

(01:03:31):
Like maybe getting a babysitterso you can sleep in the day like
it's not if you it's notreasonable again we've done it
do as we say not as we do butcoming home when you have
littles at home and yourpartner's like or you don't have
a partner um or they have to golike they're like hey now I
gotta go to the office orwherever they work um and you

(01:03:53):
are then into like parenting umthe number of times I'd be like
are you sure you don't want towatch a movie no I want to go to
the park oh yeah are you suresure, we can curl up here.
I guess sleep

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:07):
survives you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:08):
Yeah, yeah.
And so you might have kids whereyou can do that.
There's not a lot of kids likethat, but you have them.
Cool.
But you have to have some kindof system that you sleep because
you just finished work.
You can't now go into yourunpaid labor shifts.

UNKNOWN (01:04:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:26):
Cause we're not even talking the second shift at this
point.
We're talking like the sixthshift, especially if you've been
out for 24 hours.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:32):
Yeah.
Well, and I mean, we, you know,part of why we both kind of
preach this message is becausewe know the life of not having
these things built in.
Right.
And so, so like not having themargins, not having the, like,
you know, the support, nothaving the care that you need
for your own body is, is really,really hard.

(01:04:52):
What we want for you is to nothave such a hard road as we have
had.
Like that is our desire for you,right?
And if right now you'relistening to this thinking like,
yeah, I currently can't affordlike a lot of self-care, start
small, like do some stretches.
When you get home from everysingle birth, journal or do like
a voice note where act likeyou're telling someone the birth

(01:05:15):
story.
So you're processing, right?
Like do something, right?
Have a bath or shower.
Yes.
And then consider raising yourprices so you can do like a
massage or a chiropractor ormaybe it's one or the other.
Maybe it's every other month,right?
Like some people can do it afterevery birth.
Not every doula can afford that.
And that's okay if that iscurrently you.

(01:05:35):
But that is where we want you toget to because that is how you
sustain this work is actuallysupporting your physical body in
doing this work.
And that looks different for allof us, you know, but yeah, but
it is something that I thinkneeds to be, it needs to be on
the list of like, when I get alittle bit bigger, I need to
build this in.
And if you can do it today, doit today, you know?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:57):
Yeah, I think that's good advice.
And us older doulas, we pavedthe way of like, normalizing
doula care and now people likeback when I was a baby doula
people were like a what what'sthis word and nobody had heard
of it and so we've paved the wayfor you did now actually create

(01:06:20):
like a powerful business aroundthis because people are shopping
for their doula and so we had tolike eat shit and and not have
asshole clauses and be there for30 hours and like you know do
this work for$600 I I mean, Inever did, but that kind of,
that vibe.
And now it's, you know, it's arobust industry that is expected

(01:06:46):
to double over the next, what isthe forecast, seven years, I
think.
And so it's turning intosomething that people are used
to, like shopping the way youwould shop for a lawyer.
And you can have these kind oflike, Big clit energy around the
work that you're doing becauseit's valuable work and it's hard

(01:07:06):
work and it has to besustainable for you.
And there's creative ways whileyou're in process.
So like we were talking aboutthe chiropractic, if you're
referring chiropractic care toyour clients, you can also set
something up that like everythree people you refer that they
give you free adjustments.
And so that you can have freemassages, free adjustments

(01:07:27):
because you're sending them areferral system because yeah,
like I, it took me way too longto figure that out.
And I'm a connector.
Like I refer people, I connectpeople.
And I was like, Oh, all myclients go get massages and
Cairo from these samepractitioners.
Give me some, give me some care.
And that's a really reasonablebarter system.

(01:07:48):
So, you know, once you'vesupported those people who have
gone massages at their birth,you come back around and you get
care after that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:57):
Yeah.
And I think that like a bartersystem in that way is also very
sustainable for the massagetherapist, right?
Like I have a massage therapisthere in DC that I've done some
business strategy stuff withher.
And like podcasts starting, youknow, like those kinds of visits
that would be like a couplehundred bucks.
And then she's like, can I payyou in massages?
And I'm like, absolutely.

(01:08:17):
And I am for sure winning inthis.
But like that, that is moresustainable for both of us,
right?
Because she's like, I know I cando this thing.
I can put you on my book.
And then can you help me thinkthrough this business thing that
you're already doing that Iwould like to add?
And I'm like, yeah, 100 percent.
Like any time we could do thismonthly, if you'd like.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:39):
Yeah, we'll do a check in for your business,
check in for my body.
You can get very creative withthese things.
You're going to have to.
That's the nature of everything.
you know women and queers inhelping and healing fields is we
do have to get creative untilpeople see value in care work um

(01:09:00):
yeah and yeah um but you knowhaving I know we went through a
ton of tips for you all um butlike really exploring where you
can plug some of the holes thatare just like they end up being
holes in the bottom of yourbucket of time resources heart
space um and all of those leadto like a decrease in
sustainability when we're kindof leaking, hemorrhaging

(01:09:23):
resources.
So quick recap, we want to makesure that you set up your home
life, you know, reflect on yourpartnership arrangement.
Heck, some of this mightactually improve your
relationship because yourpartner now has to learn about
the home that you share and thechildren and pets that you share
because they're both of yoursequally.

(01:09:46):
Yeah, yeah.
So there's that.
You'll have to work out likesetting up your family systems
so conversations with yourpartner other community members
boundaries with your clientsreally making sure that the
systems that are in place aresustainable and then that
contract have one go through itmake it make sense for you

(01:10:08):
protect yourself yeah it's agreat insurance policy

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:12):
yeah yeah absolutely

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:16):
yeah We went on a journey, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:20):
Duel-a-shit part two coming later.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:27):
Duel-a-shit, yeah.
We are taking requests ifanybody wants us to unpack our
combined many, many years ofdueling all of our mistakes.
Do you know what I've alwaysdreamed about?
Okay, you guys can write in andlet us know if you care about
this enough.
But I think it would be fun tohave some doula children.

(01:10:47):
Like we just like give them themic and have them round table
doula's kids like without us I

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:53):
have an episode like that my daughter I know I know
I'm sorry it's called advicefrom a doula kid or something
like that but she like gave hertop 10 tips yeah it was it was
like a year and a half ago nowum yeah she one of her tips was
partners need good food it wastips for pregnant folks and I we

(01:11:16):
can do one of like towardsdoulas right but she was like
partners are sometimes reallyweak and so they need food I was
like you're not wrong it waslike while you're watching your
other partner literally givebirth to your baby you need a
snack I love just like obviouslythe person in labor needs to eat

(01:11:36):
but also partner like sometimesare super weak.
I'm like, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:41):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:42):
Yeah.
Oh my God.
When I first started, she drew apicture of someone standing on a
bed, delivering a baby.
And when I asked her about it,there was like a bed person
standing baby coming out.
Right.
And two other people by theside.
And I was like, who are thesetwo people?
And she was like, well, you, thedoula and the partner, just like
watching in awe as this personstands on the bed and delivers.

(01:12:03):
And I was like, I mean, I'm notmad about this.
Just

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:08):
standing like a star as his baby falls out onto the
bed.
We're just like smiling in thecorner.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:15):
I was like, that's exactly how I do my work.
That makes sense why you get madat me if you think I'm just like
chilling in the corner watching.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:21):
Watching, watching like a long, boring movie.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:26):
Just observing the birth

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:27):
process.
They pay me to just sit on achair and watch.
Oh man, that's really funny.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:35):
Yeah, so we can do a new version of that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:39):
Yeah, and we'll round up some, we're taking
requests, so anybody wants toput their kid in the ring.
We've got older kids, so they'llwrangle, but I think it would be
fun to have a cross-age roundtable.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:50):
totally.
My boys are not interested.
I can already tell you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:54):
Fine.
Okay, great.
We'll keep this feminization ofcare going, and we'll have our
daughters speak on behalf ofcarers.

UNKNOWN (01:13:05):
Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:06):
Not at all surprised by that.
And if you guys are like, pleasedon't, please don't also send
that in.
And we won't, we won't make thatan episode for either of our
podcasts.
If you're like, we will neverlisten to your children ramble
and be like, cool, cool, cool,

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:24):
cool.
Okay, great.
All right, then we'll just dothat privately for ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:28):
Yeah, it'll be cute.
And we'll talk about it a lot.
And you won't actually hear theoriginal.
We'll love it alone.
We'll love it alone.
What do you have happening thatyou, anything you want to share
with the community?
What you got?

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:43):
I have a new workshop.
I did it last year, but I onlyinvited my newsletter list.
And so I kept it kind ofsmall-ish.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:50):
Disculpe.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:52):
But now it's open to the wider public.
It's a like wrap up 2024 planfor 2025 workshop.
Because I think sometimes indoula work, we suck at strategy.
I mean, And a lot of times wesuck at strategy, but we also
suck at being like, how muchmoney is that thing actually
making me that I hate doing?

(01:14:13):
Like, should I just stop doingit or should I do it more?
I love it.
And it actually is making somerevenue, you know?
And so that's happening December6th at noon.
There is a small fee associated.
So it's$37, but that is becauseI'm keeping it small and we're
like actually workshopping yourreal numbers.
So there'll be like a worksheetthat comes with it and all of

(01:14:33):
that.
So I'll give you the link andyour people can get a 10%
discount if you'd like.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:39):
Ooh, yeah.
We'll drop that in the shownotes.
Guys, it's so great havingsomeone else, listeners, this
goes to you, to have somebodyelse put eyes on it and to just
like really break down thethings you like doing and don't
like doing.
I dropped my newsletter lastweek and I feel so light and I'm
doing great.

(01:14:59):
Bianca's five things of the weekon Fridays.
So five things Fridays.
And I'm just going to like...
Tell you five things that I wantto tell you.

(01:15:35):
Why not?
December 6th.
The 6th?
Yes.
Yeah.
6th.
Yeah.
Link in bio or in the shownotes.
I'm pointing down.
I know.
I'm like gesturing.
The show notes down there.
The show notes down here likeI'm on a YouTube channel.
Yeah.
You can't see me, but I'mpointing down to the show notes.

(01:15:57):
And I'll have all the links foryour podcast.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:01):
Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:03):
Get some tips and tits.
And you can't go wrong.
And your socials, we'll have allof those there.
Awesome.
You guys can be new besties.
Yay.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for coming on andtalking about some delicious
shit.
And I always love our chat.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:24):
Yes, I'm excited to be on here again and to have you
back on mine.
We'll just go back and forthevery quarter.
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:31):
love this for us.
Thanks everyone for listeningand we'll see you in the next
episode.

UNKNOWN (01:16:39):
Bye.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:43):
Want to keep hanging out?
We have created a free mindsetmini course to help change
makers and birth workers findbliss in their business.
You're not in this alone.
Let's build together.
Head to www.babomia.com slashbib to grab your space and a
free retreat.
Once again, go towww.babomia.com slash bib to

(01:17:09):
grab your spot.
We will see you next time on theHot and Brave podcast.
podcast.

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S4 E09 - Scaffolding Your Doula Game: The Unfiltered Blueprint with Kaely Harrod

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S4 E09 - Scaffolding Your Doula Game: The Unfiltered Blueprint with Kaely Harrod