S4 E10 - Pregnancy after 9 losses with Rachell Dumas of A Light After Nine - Hot+Brave

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with
Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia,where you will hear brave
stories, hot topics and truthbombs that will either light
fire to your rage or be the balmyou need for your soul.

SPEAKER_02 (00:18):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Hot and
Brave podcast.
I'm your host Bianca Sprague andoh boy what a week.
What just a full flippin shitshow that was so darn
heartbreaking.
Like the tears I have shed.
It's unbelievable.
I don't even know what to sayabout all of it.

(00:41):
It's really just too much tohold.
I honestly thought we had mademore progress but judging from
the hate messages i receivedafter posting our grief about
the election um it shows mereally how carefully i curate my
life and who i share space withand what i ingest because i was
just so surprised by all of itum i immediately people me a

(01:06):
lost 500 followers as soon as wesaid it was a dark day um which
great um bye bye guys just woofto all of it um and you You
know, the rise of the right, itcan only lead to really bad shit
for most people.
So I thought it would be a goodtime to talk to my gal, Rachelle

(01:31):
Duma.
And we talked about loss andinfertility.
And, you know, really what isneeded in all this coming
political climate forreproductive health and justice.
A little bit about Rachelle.
She is an RN, an entrepreneur,and she also founded a nonprofit

(01:54):
called A Light After Nine.
And her nonprofit is sobeautiful.
And it has a really wonderfulgoal of supporting families who
are navigating pregnancy lossand fertility challenges.
And that's some of the stuff wetalk about in this episode.
And I mean she's going to shareabout her own journey through
nine losses and after thatexperience you know she really

(02:15):
wanted to transform maternalhealth and she does that with
compassionate care resources andcommunity support I love
everything she says aboutcommunity it's such a good
conversation and it's really tohelp others find the light and
healing in their darkest momentsso again her foundation is
called a light after nine and wewill have all of that
information in the show notes ofhow you can get a hold of her

(02:38):
She makes herself so wildlyaccessible, like pick up the
phone, call her.
I just love it.
Anyway.
We have lots happening over hereat Bebo Mia, so keep checking
our channels.
We have so much happening onInstagram, really great
freebies, and we have some funstuff as we're counting down to

(03:00):
Black Friday.
So I just want to plug thatbefore we end and move over to
the conversation that I had withRachel last week.
So without further ado, here isthat conversation.
Hi, Rachelle.
Thank you so much for joining uson the Hot and Brave podcast.

SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Thank you so much

SPEAKER_02 (03:19):
for

SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
having me.
I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02 (03:21):
We're very excited because, I mean, your personal
story is amazing.
And then what was blossomed fromyour personal story, which I
think I think these these deepimpactful moments of grief and
loss and rage and all the thingsthat go along with them they're
amazing fuel so I'm so honoredthat you're going to be one of

(03:42):
our guests because I just thinkwell you're just a great example
of the thing I talk about allthe time is like what we what
can we do with with all of thesefeelings and experiences that we
have so that we either are youknow, expanding them out to the
world and doing, doing some loveand light and healing stuff with
them, or they kind of just likecollapse in and we drown under

(04:03):
the weight of it.
Right.
And it's so easy to

SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
drown.
So yeah.
I'm so happy to be here and tellmy story.
Did you want me to go into that?
I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 (04:16):
No, I just, yeah, I would love for folks to hear
about, yeah, your own journey,especially your journey within
reproductive health and then howthat kicked you into being just
such a fierce advocate inreproductive justice.

SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
Yes, absolutely.
So my pregnancy journey startedin 2018.
It was an unplanned pregnancywith my soon-to-be husband and I
miscarried at six weeks.
Went to the OBGYN and he said,this is a part of your pregnancy
journey, a normal pregnancyjourney you're gonna go on and
have you know your baby andeverything will be fine that did

(04:51):
not happen everything but thathappened literally so I'm
thinking um back to 2018 doingall my other pregnancies and
just sometimes I even chuckle Imean it's a very dark joke but
that he you know told me thateverything would be fine because
it wasn't so fast forward to 19uh 2020 actually we're in a

(05:15):
pandemic i'm a travel nurse umin new york i went to help out
and got sick came home withcovid and um i found out i was
pregnant so i was pregnant notonly with one baby but two i was
happy I was like, okay, well,we're pregnant.

(05:36):
The doctor said everything wasfine.
That was a one-off miscarriagething.
We really weren't ready.
I wasn't anyways.
So here we are.
I had trouble that wholepregnancy.
I was in pain.
I was in and out of the obeseoffice, a lot of bleeding.
And I lost the first baby.
I had what's called vanishingtwin syndrome.

(06:00):
And the first, the one babyabsorbed the other one.
So even then I was still fine,very positive.
My symptoms went away.
I was optimistic and optimisticenough to throw a gender reveal.
At the gender reveal, I went tothe bathroom and the second baby
fell out.

SPEAKER_02 (06:20):
So,

SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
yeah.
So how far along were you atthat time?
At that time, I made it 15weeks.
And I went to the hospital inshock, told the doctor what
happened.
And she said, are you sure youwere pregnant?
So that is like the indicationof the rest of my pregnancy

(06:44):
journey was.
She didn't even believe I waspregnant.
I don't even know why.
So I showed her a picture of thebaby that was in the toilet.
And she said, oh, you werepregnant.
And that is when I really,really thought my pregnancy
journey is not going to be easyat all.
So I went back to my OB.

(07:08):
She said, OK, we've lost threebabies at this point.
I think you have what's calledcervical insufficiency, which is
meaning my cervix is weak.
So the babies fall out, for lackof better words.
So she said the treatment for itis called a cervical cerclage.
It's literally the cervix is atthe end of the uterus.

(07:29):
It's what keeps everything inthe baby, the placenta,
everything.
Mine is weak, so it opens.
And when the baby is heavyenough and sits on it long
enough, it will fall out.
So a cerclage is a suture or astitch placed around it to keep
it tight.
That has to be done at 13 weeks.
So I tried again, earlymiscarriage, tried again, early

(07:50):
miscarriage.
my mother my grandmother umpassed away during this time um
so i had a lot of loss a lot ofloss was and my grandmother was
my mother and um that was just alot she died knowing i was
pregnant um and then in 2021 iwas pregnant i started to see

(08:13):
what's called a reproductiveendocrinologist just to do
further testing um just to seeif There were other causes of
the miscarriage that we weremissing.
Maybe the shape of my uterus,something was wrong with that.
Or maybe I had some underlyinginflammation, she said.
Maybe a genetic component.
She sent me to a reproductivegeneticist, which is a very

(08:36):
specialized field.
And I only found one in Atlanta.
Nothing was wrong with me otherthan my cervix was weak.
So I had to live with that guiltof these children are not here
anymore.
because something is wrong withmy body.
But I kept trying.
I went to therapy, and I wasable to try again.

(08:58):
So April 2021, found out I waspregnant again.
And this time, I made it to 13weeks.
I was able to do the surgery.
And after the surgery, thecerclage was placed.
After the surgery, I asked thedoctor if I could come in sooner
because we were 13 weeks.
And she said, come back at 20weeks.
That's seven weeks.

(09:20):
I was terrified something wouldhappen.
But she reassured me that ifsomething was happening, you
will feel it.
It will be pain.
If something was going on withyour cervix, it would be
painful.
You'll have bleeding, all thesethings.
So I went to the 20-weekappointment.
And the ultrasound tech runs outthe room.
And she's like, the doctor willcome back.

(09:40):
So I knew something was wrong.
The doctor came in.
And she said, your cervix, yourcerclage failed.
And you can go upstairs anddeliver the baby.
No other options.
No, let's try something else.
No, let's go on bed rest.
I said, when the baby, the babywouldn't survive.
And she said, no, the babywould.

SPEAKER_02 (10:03):
Like you're delivering this news.
Did they deliver it in the waythat you're telling us right
now?
That's literally how she camein.

SPEAKER_01 (10:12):
I'm so sorry.
That's literally no bedsidemanners.
That's literally how she saidit.
Come to find out she was thefirst year, like that was her
first year and one of her firsttimes putting in a cerclage and
it failed.
I think there was a pride issuethat was going on.
So I went home.

(10:32):
I said, I'm not delivering thisbaby.
I fought too long.
We're 20 weeks.
It's the longest I've beenpregnant.
I've had a lot of losses.
We're at loss number five orsix.
i am maybe seven i can'tremember six or seven i'm going
home and i'm putting myself onbear rest because i'm on like
pregnancy apps and other thishas happened to other people
that's like that they've made itto like 22 weeks so the baby

(10:52):
will be in a nicu but they'll befine go on bear rest so i go on
bear rest and then i also readthat there could be a higher
cerclage a higher suture calleda transabdominal suture I found
a doctor in Dallas, Texas thatperformed this after a sacrage
fell on a woman with twins thatshe was trying to save.

(11:16):
It was successful.
So I called him on his cellphone.
He said, come to Dallas, flythere.
I flew there that night.
He rolled out the red carpet forme.
I mean, he got me in the OR,treated me like I was the queen.
The three-hour surgery tookeight hours.
I woke up surrounded byhealthcare professionals

(11:37):
cheering me on and saying,you're still pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 (11:43):
I know we're going to go on a journey.
So I'm like, I'm so excited, butI'm like, oh, I'm waiting for
the roller coaster to drop.

SPEAKER_01 (11:49):
I am fighting the anesthesia.
I'm fighting the anesthesia.
All I remember saying, am Ipregnant?
Am I pregnant?
Am I pregnant?
Everybody's like, yes, you'repregnant.
I'm like, I'm calling all myfriends once anesthesia wears
off, kind of still on theanesthesia.
I'm still freaking out, youknow, a little drunk on
anesthesia.
But everybody's cheering, youknow, all my coworkers at the

(12:09):
time, everybody's so excited.
Anesthesia wore off, and I wentinto labor.
I contracted for 30 hours, andall the medicine that they gave
me to stop it didn't work.
They gave me...
They just pumped me up with somuch medicine and I was just
begging for more just to stopit.

(12:30):
And then 30 hours later ofhorrible contractions for 30
hours, my water burst.
And that was it.
I was forced to deliver thatbaby.
And I went back to the OR to getboth of the sacralages out.
And I went to the labor anddelivery unit and then they put

(12:51):
in the epidural so I could...
you know, pass the baby.
And I said then I held him forlike a few hours and then he
took like maybe a breath or soand that was it.
So moving on, that doctor saidthat I'm going to bring you back

(13:11):
out to Dallas and I'm going topay for your surgery to try this
again.
And we're going to do thissurgery outside of pregnancy.
outside of pregnancy, and you'regoing to have that baby.
I've been told many times duringmy journey that I was going to
have a baby.
I did not believe it, but Istill did everything, and I was
still going through thosemotions like I was.
I didn't believe it, but he sureenough paid for me to come hotel

(13:32):
everything, for me to come outthere.
He paid for the surgery.
I didn't pay for anything, andhe did the surgery.
I had smaller, I mean, earliermiscarriages throughout that
time, five weeks, six weeks,seven weeks, but then in April
of 2022, after going throughtalk therapy, hypnotherapy, four

(13:53):
surgeries, numerous hormones,hormonal treatments, numerous
specialists, just everything, Ifinally got pregnant again.
This was my 10th baby after ninelosses.

(14:13):
In December 30th, 2022, I gavebirth to my baby.
there at 36 weeks, a little over36 weeks.
And he went to the NICU and hedid well.
I can

SPEAKER_02 (14:29):
stay happy, right?
I can

SPEAKER_01 (14:30):
stay in this joy.
He is fat and running around.
We can stay happy, but that ismy happiness.

SPEAKER_02 (14:40):
Oh, my goodness.
Now, how did you find thetreatment that was different
between the care you weregetting in New York, in Georgia
versus in Texas?

SPEAKER_01 (14:52):
So when my cerclage failed, all of my friends, all
coworkers, I called everybody.
Do we know somebody who couldput the abdominal cerclage in
there while I'm pregnant?
Couldn't find anybody inGeorgia.
Everybody was like, no, we'renot touching this.
We're not going to beresponsible for the loss of the
baby.
Once a surgeon does somethingand it's kind of messed up,

(15:15):
another surgeon doesn't want tocome back and fix it if it's
going to cause a big issue likethat.
Because the baby is probablygoing to die.
But Dr.
Fogwell, that's his name inDallas, he took that risk.
And he's a risk taker.
And he is a very caring person.
doctor and I'm indebted to himbecause of my son.

(15:38):
But I did research and then Iasked my village to help me find
this doctor.
And that's what we did.
Found one in Florida and then wefound him.
And I'm so glad.
And

SPEAKER_02 (15:52):
did you find even just like how you were treated,
how they talked to you?
Because I mean, your firstlosses, like the delivery and
the care and, you know, It wasabysmal.
And so did you find that thateven was better, like how you
were taking care of mind andbody?

SPEAKER_01 (16:09):
Yes.
The hospital that I was seekingcare in in Atlanta, I've
reported in multiple times.
During my last pregnancy, Italked to the chief nursing
officer and she made sure mydelivery was smooth and it was.
I would not go back.
Dallas, I wish I lived in Dallaswhile I was pregnant.

(16:32):
I mean, the care that the nurseshowed me during the 30 hours of
labor, all the staff, they werein my room.
They were going beyond the callof duty.
You can't teach that type ofcompassion at all.
It just has to be innate.
And I can't tell you what's thedifference between Atlanta and

(16:54):
Dallas, that hospital and thishospital.
But I know that those nurseswere educated.
They were vigilant.
They were compassionate.
Literally held my hand.
And I just felt better there andgot better treatment there.

SPEAKER_02 (17:11):
Yeah.
Just how we treat folks goingthrough their fertility
journeys, going through theirloss journeys.
I mean, we could talk about thatfor hours.

UNKNOWN (17:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:25):
It's so bad.
Okay, I wanted to loop back towhen you were struggling with
this...
like this internalizeddisappointment when you were,
you're sharing about your cervixand, you know, having your
cervix being called incompetent,which like, let's just put that
to the side, the language thatwe use around our reproducing

(17:46):
bodies.
But what would you say tosomebody who is, who's
struggling and is in that loopof that kind of like that
personal responsibility or thatnegative, like where we start
segmenting and, and, and,feeling disappointed with our
own bodies, like ourselves.
What would you say to somebodyin that journey now?
I

SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
feel like the pregnancy journey starts and
should start before conception.
Yeah.
You have to mentally prepare forwhatever can be thrown at you.
And I wasn't.
In my mind, I was going to getpregnant and have a baby and the
baby would have been fine.
And that would have been it.
and get pregnant again if I wantanother child.

(18:29):
I would have never guessed this.
But now, having done it, I wouldnow encourage other people who
are trying to get pregnant, andnot even the person getting
pregnant, the family, to braceyourselves.

(18:50):
What if this goes wrong?
This is what we're going to do.
I would even say startcounseling.
um or get some type of mentalhealth support to go into that
because even if you have a greatpregnancy smooth pregnancy it's
still taxing on the body and themind you know um and just it's a
really great tip yeah yeah iwould i definitely would um and

(19:13):
even if you know you feel likeyou're the strong person and you
can handle whatever pregnancyhas a way of changing you and
humbling you humbling you.
And then, you know, parenthood,that's the same thing.
So, you know, even if pregnancydidn't impact you that much, I'm

(19:34):
sure parenthood, you know, it'llget you.
It'll get you.
It'll get you.
I do encourage that.
But through my own journey, Ifelt guilt.
I felt depression, hopelessnessat some point, but not long.

(19:54):
I always had a little, it wasliterally a mustard seed,
probably less, of hope.
I never felt judged.
My community was always like,you know, you got this, you got
this.
I felt like I was going to havemy baby, but I wasn't sure if it

(20:16):
would have been the way that Iwanted to, which was this
natural pregnancy.
Because of that, know i neededcounseling so i started talk
therapy and i even didhypnotherapy and able that
allowed me to continue mypregnancy journey when i got to
a standstill and felt like icouldn't do it anymore um so i

(20:40):
would definitely encourage youknow getting those mental health
resources to help you before thejourney along the journey and
then after

SPEAKER_02 (20:49):
Yeah, I have some mental health questions about
your after, but I just want tocircle back again, because I
loved your feedback around, youknow, building these systems and
having your, you know, maybeeven starting therapy before you
even begin your, your fertilityjourney.
So, but knowing the stats onloss and infertility, which are
staggering, especially in the US like, why do you think so few

(21:13):
people are prepared or thatthere, there still is this idea
that spontaneous uncomplicatedpregnancy and birth are so
attainable, which side salad,everybody, they are under
different circumstances that arenot riddled with the impacts of
the patriarchy.
Our system is quite lovely, butwe have had the impacts of

(21:36):
trauma and the patriarchy andracism and sexism and all of
these things.
So why do you think that thismessage hasn't been actually
rippled out to reproducingpeople?
I

SPEAKER_01 (21:49):
think it's being talked about more and people are
slowly becoming more aware ofmiscarriage, stillbirths,
complications, the need forabortion with a failed pregnancy
or issues within a pregnancy,especially because of, you know,

(22:10):
all the politics surroundingthings.
But I think people do go intopregnancy or fertility journeys
with a mindset of, you know,nothing's going to happen to me
because one, it's scary to eventhink about.
Two, In my experience, when youhave different issues, if you

(22:30):
focus on that issue and anegative, there's research
showing that your body caninternalize that and can produce
negative outcomes.
So I think from a spiritual andemotional point because of that.
Three, people don't like to hearbad news.
That's why a lot of people don'tgo to the doctor and they delay

(22:52):
treatment and things like that.
But for pregnancy, that portionof the fertility journey, if
you're choosing naturalpregnancy, it's supposed to be a
natural thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
You're

SPEAKER_01 (23:06):
thinking that your body won't fail you, especially
if you're a healthy person goinginto a pregnancy and fertility
journey, you're not thinkingthat something like that will
happen.
So I think that's why peoplestart the journey raw and feel
like, you know, I have my baby.

SPEAKER_02 (23:28):
Yeah, those are all excellent, excellent points.
When you're thinking about yourlosses, what stood out as
something that was, I mean, Idon't know if you can name just
one thing, but what was the mosthelpful for you during that
journey?

SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
The most helpful?
I would definitely say thevillage that I had.
There were They were verysupportive, but at the same
time, internally, I felt likepeople, maybe not my friends or

(24:05):
anything like that, but peoplewho may not have known me or saw
my journey up close, you know,that front seat version of my
journey, felt like I was crazyfor trying.
When you're focused onsomething, you really want
something, you go after it.
I'm that type of person.
I have a great ton of vision.
I'm going to do it.

(24:25):
If I tell you I'm going to dosomething, it's going to get
done.
I was the same way with mypregnancy journey.
I was like, I want my baby.
I'm going to have it.
So I think just that communityof non-judgment and support and
whatever you need.
Rachelle's not talking to us fora couple of weeks, but we know

(24:45):
why.
The understanding and compassionreally helped.
because it's a way of shakingyour marriage and your
relationships because peopledon't understand what you're
going through.

SPEAKER_02 (24:56):
Yeah.
I have a question about yourpartner as well.
When you say the village, who doyou count in that?
Is that like your friends,family, neighbors, or do you
also count like yourpractitioners and daycare
providers?
Like, I mean, obviously youweren't there yet, but, but for
other folks, like who, who doyou count in that, in that

SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
bucket?
It depends.
I do count certain providersthat I had in my journey.
There was a nurse practitionerthat called me during this last
pregnancy.
I met her during the lastpregnancy, and she called me
almost every day.
My grandmother physically, she'sgone.
I still feel her.
But I didn't have somebody likea mom in the waiting room or in

(25:41):
the delivery room or things likethat.
So I definitely needed that typeof energy.
I also count whoever issupporting me.
This was a long journey filledwith many doctors and people,
and whoever was in that circlesaying, you can do this, is who
I count in the village andcommunity.

(26:03):
I

SPEAKER_02 (26:03):
love that.
Any cheerleader you're in.
It

SPEAKER_01 (26:05):
could have been walking down the street on a
Thursday where I was crying.
I count him in that.
So it's just, never know.
You never know.

SPEAKER_02 (26:17):
So you mentioned your now husband.
Yeah, you guys are married now?
Partner?

SPEAKER_01 (26:24):
Yeah, we got married that year that we had our first
pregnancy.
We are unfortunately goingthrough a divorce.
And that is one of the thingsthat I would encourage people.
That's one of the reasons why Iwould encourage couples to seek
therapy or whatever counselingor whatever type of resource you

(26:46):
can before you go through thatjourney, because it changes you.
You can have your own marriage,but your idea of how to raise
children, how long it's going totake to have children, if you
can, all of that can change thedynamics of a marriage.
Unfortunately, mine did not makeit through.
But we do have a beautiful babyout of it.

(27:07):
And I wouldn't change that.

SPEAKER_02 (27:09):
Yeah.
Do you have advice forespecially for male partners?
You know, things that you wouldyou would want to tell somebody
before they're going throughpregnancy?
because you don't know how longyou're trying to conceive
journey is going to be.
You don't know what's ahead ofyou as you, you know, as we're
talking about what advice wouldyou share or at least like some

(27:29):
triage, like where you feel likemaybe put the brakes on this.

SPEAKER_01 (27:33):
Yeah.
I would definitely say check inwith your partner.
If you're not the one carryingthe baby, you have to admit that
there is an imbalance in therelationship because of that.
You have to own up to it andyou, you, have to move forward
with your relationship knowingthat but try your best to make

(27:56):
it balance because you just letyour body go through during
pregnancy and even well afterit's just it's an imbalance you
know you're never going to bethe same at the pregnancy i just
produced a whole human being andin my case i produced nine not
full but you know i producednine um but as the partner not

(28:16):
carrying the baby you definitelywant to check in You definitely
wanna reach out to resources orsupport groups because sometimes
you're going through this, whata lot of people are calling now
this invisible mental healthload that your partner doesn't
see and you feel like you can'ttalk to your partner because

(28:37):
that partner is carrying a baby.
Reach out and get you some helpif you feel like that is going
on so you can show up as youneed to show up as the partner.
I will also say, You know, askyour partner what they need.
What can I do?
Because a lot of partners whoare not carrying a baby feel
powerless during that time,especially if something is
wrong.

(28:57):
God forbid something is wrong,you know.
So I would say check in, takecare of your own self so you can
take care of your partner.
You know, when we're on a plane,you put the oxygen mask on you
first because you can do nothingif you're deprived of oxygen.
It's the same.
It's the same thing.
So check in.
you know show up as your bestself as you can

SPEAKER_02 (29:20):
yeah those are really really great tips and I
think you know you you touchedon it but you know how people
are going to show up in thisjourney they're really great
indicators of what it's going tolook like showing up in
parenting um one of my veryclose friends um had a very long
trying to conceive journey likesix six years and I just kept

(29:41):
being like, are you sure youwant to go on this journey with
this person?
Because, you know, he wouldtrade things like, fine, I'll go
do this test, but you have tolike stay at a friend's house
for a week so I don't have tosee you for a week.
Or I'll go do this, but you haveto.
And I was like, yo, needless tosay, they got divorced after
they had their babies.

(30:03):
But I was like, these are tests.
These are like, this is...
this is it.
Like you guys are in somethingreally intense.
That's as close as you're goingto get to parenting without it
being parenting is, you know,struggles through losses and
infertility.
That's

SPEAKER_01 (30:21):
why I said, do have those conversations before,
right?
You know, people show updifferently once they're in it,
but at the same time, a lot ofred flags can be identified
before.
And I wish I had identified thembefore.
You and me both, Rachelle.
It's just like, I mean,hindsight is 20-20.

(30:42):
We know that.
But we do need to have thoseconversations ahead of time
because it's just like you don'twant, we don't want to be single
parents.
Sometimes we do.
Sometimes we do.
But raising a kid is hard.
Raising a kid is, you know, byyourself.
And if you can raise it with apartner, you know, and you want

(31:05):
to do that, because I'm notsaying there are people who
choose to be single parents andkudos to them.
They're one of the strongestpeople in this world.
But, you know, ideally, you wantto pick a partner who, you know,
through those storms andthereafter, even the ups, even
the ups could be difficult forsome partners to go through.

(31:27):
Ironically, you want somebodywho is not fair weather.

SPEAKER_02 (31:31):
Yeah.
I mean, I got to say, I thinkthe hardest is still doing that
single parenting partnerededition where you're like
essentially the parent to anincompetent partner.
I think solo parenting looksreal good because you can just
contract out, you build a reallygreat village and you never have
to do the negotiations for yourtime and resources.

(31:52):
And nobody's being like, Iactually don't think that's a
very good parenting move.
You're just, you get to decide.
You're the boss.

SPEAKER_01 (31:59):
Right.
I would.
And now I'm in a really solidparent co-parenting phase.
It took a while to get there,but we communicate pretty well.
He has our baby at five days andthen I'll have our baby five
days.
So it it's a I want to say,well, oil machine, but, you
know, there's hiccups, but it'spretty good.

SPEAKER_02 (32:23):
Well, kudos to you guys.
I think that's a gift.
I think it's a gift for allthree of you.
Yeah.
So that's amazing.
Okay, so you talked about PMADSa little bit.
So you know that a long TTCjourney or repeated losses, once
we have a live birth, that therisk of having postpartum

(32:43):
anxiety, depression, or anyother than PMADS is so high.
Were you prepared for this asyou were coming into that like,
You know, the baby's here.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (32:56):
Oh, when I had the baby, I really thought I was
going to suffer from postpartumdepression.
I was preparing myself.
I was like, this journey justwas tiresome mentally,
physically.
I mean, all the ways.
Like, I don't have nothing leftto give the baby after this
journey.
And even...
Up until literally I gave birth,I was telling the OR team, who

(33:17):
was phenomenal, I was like, ify'all told me a baby is coming
out of me, I would believe thatbefore you said there was a baby
coming.
I am not prepared to be a motherat all.
You know, I wasn't.
I know I had been, well, a mom,because I think there are two
different things in my case.
I was a mother long before Igave birth because I did

(33:39):
everything for all of those kidsto try to save them.
But the mom, the more emotionalbonding, all that component of
it, of parenthood, I wasn'tready for it because I didn't
know if the baby would stay.
And unfortunately, for a monthlater, I didn't know if the baby

(34:00):
would stay.
And that complicated my bonding.
We love to think that, oh, oncethe baby comes, it's going to be
magical.
You look into the baby's eyesand now you're a mom or you're a
parent or whatever.
And it wasn't like that at allfor me.
And then the baby went to theNICU.
So I didn't even have him in theroom with me to bond.

(34:22):
And for a month, He was mypatient and I made sure my
patient had everything.
I went into nurse mode for amonth before.
I was like, he's not the baby.
He's my baby.
He's not going anywhere.
It's safe.
I didn't feel safe.
So I definitely had postpartumanxiety.

(34:44):
I didn't have depression, matterof fact.
even as the nurse part of meduring the first month.
And once the mom kicked induring the rest of the months, I
was out and about with my child.
I was excited.
I was just like, that pregnancywas the worst part.
Motherhood is amazing.
This is easy.

(35:05):
You know, I was literally,everybody next time, it's easy.
This is easy.
And I have a baby.
I do the labor and deliveryagain and again.
And you know, motherhood isnothing.
I have four or five more kids.
It's easy.
One of my best friends, he toldme, you know, pregnancy really
kick your behind.
If you were saying you're theonly person saying motherhood is

(35:29):
easy.
And I miss it.

SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
Six years of hell.
And you're like, relatively, yo,what are you all complaining
about?

SPEAKER_01 (35:38):
I feed him, I breastfeed him, just pop him on
there, change his diaper, givehim a bath, he sleeps.
It's easy, I don't have to doanything.
So now he runs around and I'mlike, he's like a forest.
I'm like, please don't hurtyourself.
Now I'm over here, I'm excitedagain, but for different
reasons.

(35:58):
But yeah, it did interrupt thebonding though.
And I think a lot of pregnantpersons are afraid to talk about
that.

SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
I love that you found parenting easy like it had
to be like the second blow wouldhave been too much right like if
you had such a hard journey justgetting one of your babies into
your arms and if then you hadanything on top of that that
just would have been cruel I'mso happy

SPEAKER_01 (36:28):
yeah I think for that month too I was also
waiting for that ball to droptoo I was like it can't be this
easy I'm kind of scared to sayit's easy I'm just saying it's
easy This is easy.
Not to say other people aregoing through that dream.
I'm so sorry if you are having ahard time.
I know a lot of people have ahard time in the first few

(36:49):
months.
You're not sleeping and allthat.
I didn't even care about thesleep.
I was like, all of this is easy.
But my dream was so hard thatanything was better than that.

SPEAKER_02 (37:00):
Yeah.
Well, I think you should justkeep yelling that it was easy
for you because I think we needto hear, we need to hear
positive things, whether they'repositive conception stories,
positive pregnancy stories,positive birth stories, and
positive parenting stories sothat people do know that it is,
it is possible and not just thismyth that we're making up.

UNKNOWN (37:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (37:24):
Just so that we can like look at some of the things
so that it wasn't, I mean, maybeit was all consuming, but did
you develop any kind of likehobbies or interests during that
time that helped you cope as youwere going through that trying
to conceive time?

SPEAKER_01 (37:37):
Yeah, I traveled.
I was never...
You know, once, you know, mypregnancy journey started during
COVID, so we couldn't travel alot.
So I was taking road trips inthe beginning just to get away.
And that's always been my safehaven was to travel.
I still travel now.
I just went to Bali over thesummer.
And it was...
So I...

(37:57):
I traveled.
I got away, you know, concertsand travel.
And it really relaxed my mind.
In 2021, when I lost that 20weeker and my grandmother died
and I was at pregnancy lossnumber eight, nine, you know,
whatever.
I went to a Bruno Mars concertin Las Vegas where I called one
of my best friends and I waslike, drop everything.

(38:18):
We need to go to Vegas.
I'm sad.
I'm depressed.
If you say no, I'll be even moresad.
I definitely manipulated her,but I paid for everything.
I was like, please don't hateme.
I'll never do this.
You know that's not who I am.
But she came and we went tosleep on Mars.
And for those two hours, I wasable to escape all of my sadness
and have a good time, puteverything to the side.
And I cried like a baby at theend of the concert because I

(38:40):
knew the depression was justwaiting on the other side of the
door.
Definitely traveling.
And even now, I would say ifthings are wrong or going bad,
if I travel, I'm able to clearmy mind and come back.
and handle whatever.
Oh, I

SPEAKER_02 (38:57):
love that.
I didn't know if you'd have ananswer.
I was like, this might be kindof a weird question.
I love that you had one.

SPEAKER_01 (39:02):
That's a great question.
We have to find something,right?
Something.

SPEAKER_02 (39:08):
And

SPEAKER_01 (39:08):
it's healthy.
It's healthy because there's alot of unhealthy things out
there that we could be doing.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_02 (39:15):
that's true.
That's true.
So tell us a little bit about ALight After Nine.
Like what came outside of thefact you have a beautiful boy?
What came from this?
So

SPEAKER_01 (39:28):
2023 was a year of rest.
I was like, don't ask me to donothing outside of travel.
That's what I did.
Don't ask me to do nothingbecause I'm tired.
So I rested 2023 and in 2024, Ifinally got the strength and I
called it my renaissance year toget back to myself.

(39:48):
I say that's what I'm going todo.
I explored divorce, and that wasa relief, a weight that was
lifted that I never evenrealized how heavy it was.
And then I said, this journeywas horrible.
I love my son.
I don't want anybody else to gothrough this.

(40:09):
And I'm going to start acompany.
And on my birthday, August 20th,I started a company called A
Light After Nine because I hadnine losses and my son is
definitely a light.
And I said, I wanna helpfamilies because pregnancy is a
family journey.
I wanna help family and dare Isay villages because it goes

(40:34):
well out the family.
If you have that village,everybody doesn't.
With resources, grants, becauseit's expensive.
mental health resources, findingspecialists, because I had that
big issue finding a specialistthat I needed at the time.
But also, getting to thehospital at the bedside to start

(40:56):
there.
Because even though I'm aregistered nurse, I wasn't in
maternity health.
I didn't know anything aboutmaternal care.
I'm like trauma nurse, ICU, youknow, blood and guts nurse.
I'm just not.
I wasn't a baby nurse.
I came in like anybody else.
If I need to save myself, Icould.
But I didn't know about surfageand, you know, transabdominal

(41:18):
and, you know, what type ofultrasound you do.
I didn't know any of that.
So I was new.
But I realized quickly therewas, because my pregnancy
journey started in 2020, I wasin the hospital alone a lot.
And it was doing traumaticevents every time, right?

(41:39):
Because I was in the hospitaland I was facing some type of
loss.
There were times healthcareprofessionals would come and
talk to me about reallyimportant information, things I
needed to do, times I neededadvocacy.
And I didn't have anybody.
So I'm making this movement toincorporate palliative care into

(42:00):
maternal health.
And when we think of palliativecare, a lot of times we think of
inner life care, but it's notthat.
There's a whole nother side ofpalliative care for comfort.
It's just comfort doing thistreatment, whatever that looks
like.
Um, so we need somebody toadvocate who is knowledgeable,
um, who can make our journeycomfortable.
If you need us to hold your handor ice and cabbage on your

(42:23):
breast to clear up your, uh,milk after you lost a child and
your milk came in, you know, um,ask all the questions, make sure
you have follow-up visits.
After you go to a doctor and youcome back, like, I don't know
what happened.
I can explain it to you, youknow?
all these things um so i'm alsomaking that movement to
incorporate that at the bedsideand well after and also have

(42:45):
employers to add this benefitbecause a lot of issues with
losses occur at home and wedon't have anybody and we don't
know what to do we don't knowwhat so yeah

SPEAKER_02 (42:57):
Well, I love that.
And I think the bedside, I mean,whether you're getting new
members participating in thecare team or, I mean, the
education, there's just such ahuge gap of education with the
people who are delivering thiskind of news, whether it's
doctors, nurses or other primarycare providers.

UNKNOWN (43:17):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (43:17):
you know, you, you shouldn't have to sit in a, in a
room with pregnant peoplewaiting for their triage when
you have to go get care for yourloss.
Like, you know, just, I mean,the things that were said to
you, your story is, is notuncommon.
I mean, the duration and thefrequency of your losses, you

(43:39):
know, yes, less common, but itdoesn't matter where somebody
has one or nine, how they'retreated is, is, is, I mean, it's
so shit.
It's like, I don't even havebetter words.
And I, I just think that itneeds, it needs to be better.
And I don't, I don't know whatthis gap is in, in reproductive

(44:00):
healthcare, where like, there'sjust feels like an extra loss of
humanity.

SPEAKER_01 (44:04):
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
I feel like our society alsoputs on those who can get
pregnant and that we should getpregnant and before a certain
time and in a certain way and acertain amount of children.
And when you choose not to havea baby or you can have a baby or

(44:24):
you're struggling to have ababy, you put a mental toll on
yourself and they put a mentaltoll on us.
But then when we do choose tohave a baby or go along that
fertility journey, the care thatwe receive can be so bad that it
will a time that is supposed tobe so beautiful and so

(44:46):
vulnerable.
We're literally fighting anddying to give birth and to bring
a life.

SPEAKER_02 (44:55):
Yeah.
I mean, you're so right.
If you could implement, like,what do you think is the main
change that needs to happen inhealthcare to support women and
birthing people who are, whetherthey're facing infertility or
pregnancy loss?
Like what, what would you, whatwould your dream change be?

SPEAKER_01 (45:13):
Well, we can't ignore all the political changes
that occurred recently.
So I'm terrified of what's tocome next as it relates to
maternity.
So I would, I'm so focused onthe maternal death rate is so
high and I believe forunnecessary reasons, so high, so

(45:39):
unnecessary that we need tocreate laws and keep laws in
place to protect pregnantpersons, you know, making sure
they're getting optimal care,increasing healthcare access,
decreasing those access desertswhere a person in rural Georgia

(46:01):
can't even get to a maternalfetal specialist because they're
three hours away.
You know, that's unnecessary.
So they lost a baby because ofthat.
You know, we need access.
We need laws to protect us.
And we need handholdingthroughout this process to make

(46:22):
sure that we're okay inadvocacy.

SPEAKER_02 (46:25):
Yeah.
I think my dream, I think aboutthis question all the time.
And I think one of my things islike something that makes
evidence-based care front andcenter.
Like the stepping away frompractice-based care and
reproductive health

SPEAKER_00 (46:44):
feels,

SPEAKER_02 (46:47):
that's where I've landed right now.
Maybe next year I'll have adifferent answer, but yeah.
I just like all these thingsthat I watch outside of the
systemic issues of racism,fatphobia, you know, sexism, all
of these things.
But I just I listen to doctorssay and do things and nurses,
but they're following the leadof the doctor.
So I'm going to hold the doctorsmore responsible.

(47:08):
But I'm just like watching andI'm like, nothing about what you
say is backed by science.
Like, where did you you just seta stat or you just set a quote
fact to my client?
that like, where did this comefrom?
Like, why do you think you justmade that up?
Or you heard it from someoneelse who was also wrong?
Like, how did we get these,these ghost statistics that just

(47:30):
won't die?
And the practices, like if I seeanother placenta pulled out of a
client, like I'm going to losemy ever loving mind.
Cause I'm like, we know thatthis is one of the main things
that kills us after.
And yet we, I can't get doctorsto stop doing it.

SPEAKER_01 (47:50):
So there are governing bodies that we can get
in touch with to advocate on.
There are a lot of maternaladvocacy organizations, and they
do amazing work, like MomRising.
I actually have a meeting withthem, I think, next week.
And March of Dimes.

(48:13):
advocacy organizations who arefighting for those things, those
evidence-based practices to beimplemented and making sure that
they're implementing, making ita compliance issue if it's not.
So it wouldn't be doctors whoare going off of what they just
believe or not bias in the care,things like that.

(48:37):
But also looking at the patientas a whole to know this works
for a lot of patients, but notfor this patient, this patient.
But I think what you're tryingto say is like there to be a
standard.
Yeah.
Well, cause it's so, yeah, forsure that,

SPEAKER_02 (48:55):
I mean, we have the ACOG, we have the SOGC, like we
have these, you know, in the UK,they like all, all of these
countries, we all have thesethings that doctors are supposed
to be adhering to.
We have the UN, we have thesustainable goals with the world
health organization.
Like we, All of these things.
And I'm like, and yet inpractice, it is such a problem.

(49:16):
Like I had a birth this week andmy client is white and was a
surrogate and the baby wasracialized.
Both parents are South Asian.
And there was an issue with thebaby's breathing.
And the RT comes into the room,like clearly didn't read the
chart because she wouldn't stopcommenting about the color.

(49:39):
And she kept looking at myclient.
who was white,

SPEAKER_03 (49:42):
who was

SPEAKER_02 (49:43):
just the gestational carrier for this baby and being
like, why is this baby's colorlike this?
And I was like, Because thisisn't a white baby.
And she kept looking over hershoulder at the parents who are
holding each other so terrified.
But I obviously was trying totake care of my client who had
just had a baby.
And so I'm being pulled in theroom going both sides, which

(50:05):
everybody, please, surrogatesand intended parents, get two
doulas, please.
But I kept going over beinglike, you have to talk to the
parents.
And the RT was so confused andwas like, oh...
These are the parents, which iswhy I'm not passing this baby
Zapgar.
But I was like, yes.
These two rich, lush people.

(50:26):
Yes, this is the parent.
But if you just opened thechart, you would have seen that.
And there was only this birth.
I now live in a smaller town.
This was the only birth on thefloor.
So it's not like they've beenrunning around.
They had one baby born in that48 hours we were there.
One.
And it was my clients.
And so I could see, you know, ina bigger hospital, they've

(50:49):
zigzagged from room to room, abunch of crises.
But I was like, I don't knowwhere you were before this, but
it wasn't with doing any patientcare.
And like these kinds of things.
And I was like, so, you know,this isn't even a doctor.
Like this now extends to likeanybody on the care team, which
I know there's greatorganizations doing this work,
but it's so prolific.

(51:09):
Like it's, it's nobody's doingthe right thing.

SPEAKER_01 (51:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I will say there at the mean Dr.
Fargo on Dallas, there aredoctors out there that are doing
great, you know, who,passionate, who are looking at
the evidence-based practices andimplementing them.
Because when that circlagefailed in Georgia, and she was

(51:34):
like, just go deliver it, thereare other doctors, like Dr.
Fogwell, who said you shouldn'thave gotten a transvaginal
circlage.
You should have gotten anabdominal one from the
beginning, and you wouldn't havebeen at loss number nine.
because we knew what my problemwas after i lost the twins after

(51:55):
that second pregnancy so there'sdoctors like that who are like
no i've seen this over and overwe're not doing a transvaginal
uh cerclage it doesn't makesense because you have to take
it out for them to give birthanyway why don't we put a
permanent one in there and thenif they want two three four
babies we don't have to keepgoing back in there and put

(52:16):
another sacrage you know thereare doctors who are at that and
even changing the standardthat's not working for us
anymore because some areantiquated so yeah there are
doctors out there like that likedr frogwell um i didn't mean a
lot tip to him yeah it's not alot in my pregnancy journey that

(52:39):
i can But, you know, they're outthere, you know.
One of

SPEAKER_02 (52:45):
the 20.

SPEAKER_01 (52:48):
Literally one of the 20, I see.
But my colleagues and differentpeople I've been meeting on the
journey since I started thisorganization are change makers,
are innovators.
They're impressive.
And I see them making a changeand advocating.
So that is making me hopeful.

(53:09):
Oh, I love that.
Because we can't do it.
No one organization, I don'tcare how big you are, can do it
by itself.

SPEAKER_02 (53:16):
No, I'm almost 20 years in and I'm getting tired
and I'm like watching the needlego backwards and it's real hard
to keep marching along doingreproductive justice work,
especially in this climate.
So, I mean, let's look at...
Look forward to the next, notlooking forward, let's look
forward into the future for thenext four or five years,

(53:37):
especially in light of therecent election in the US.
How do you see A Light AfterNine fitting into this bloody
mess?

SPEAKER_01 (53:50):
I would say the biggest maternal health issue as
far as politics recently isabortion.
And I think a lot of people whoaren't going through the
pregnancy journey, and even ifthey are, they don't understand
that abortion is not only forsomeone who doesn't want their

(54:11):
baby.
And even if that was the case,that's their choice.
But during pregnancy, which iswhat I advocate for, abortion is
needed to save our lives.
You have an ectopic pregnancy ordifferent complications where
you know, the baby's going todie and there's nothing we can
do.
That's one grief we already haveto live with and cope with.

(54:34):
But why not keep me alive as,you know, the pregnant person
giving birth or trying to givebirth?
But I'm going to die too becauseI can't get an abortion because
at this point the baby is, youknow, killing me and I can't
deliver like I need to.
So I'm scared that that's goingto be the case you know the

(55:02):
maternal death rate has alreadyrisen when Roe versus Wade was
overturned so I unfortunatelyanticipate that getting worse
because of that but a lightafter nine can help in a way
that we're giving resources andtools we're finding
practitioners who are able tosafely you know, perform certain

(55:24):
procedures that you need done.
You know, we're finding thetools and resources to get you
to those places.
And we're collaborating withother organizations who are
like-minded to help people onthe ground who really need those
resources.
So it's going to be a tough timeand a lot of work, but we're

(55:44):
ready for it because we don'thave a choice.

SPEAKER_02 (55:47):
Yeah.
I see the next few years beingpotentially the right amount of
pressure for us to uprise in areally intentional way and
gathering together.
We're going to have to link allof our organizations up and get
ready for this next wave ofwhatever is going to come.

(56:11):
It's a fight.
It's a crisis.
Yeah, it's a crisis.
Yeah, for sure.
I would love for you to finishup by just telling us a little
bit about the different approachthat you have with the Light
After Nine so that folks get theright idea about you.
And so many of our listeners arereproductive health experts.

(56:34):
And I know that findingmovements to participate in is
something that is always reallyfront of mind for us as we're
trying to change the landscapefor pregnancy and birth.

SPEAKER_01 (56:45):
Yeah, the statistics surrounding maternal health are
very poor.
It's been an issue and it'sgetting worse and we anticipate
it getting worse with thepolitical changes that recently
occurred.
We need organizations such as ALight After Nine to do
one-on-one mentorship, tohandhold throughout the

(57:06):
fertility journey, to provideresources that our patients
don't know about.
There are so many times patientsleave doctors' offices and
hospitals and still wonderwhat's next.
That should not happen.
We should have a plan of care.
We should reiterate thesethings, what they need to do
next.
They need grants.
They need money.
They're drawing in bills on topof a horrible pregnancy journey

(57:26):
or fertility journey.
Now I have to worry about losingmy house and my home.
We shouldn't be facinghomelessness to have a child.
There are so many issues.
The maternal death rate is toohigh.
It's high.
We need to combat that.
And we've tried a lot of thingsthat haven't worked.
So we need to completely switchour minds to something more

(57:48):
innovative.
So we need to hand-hold.
From the time they're in thehospital to home and then back
in the hospital and to whereverthey need to go to survive
pregnancy and to thrive after.
So that is what A Light AfterNine comes in and that's what we
do.
We help our patients survive andto thrive this journey.

SPEAKER_02 (58:11):
We need to clone you.
I know, I think that all thetime.
oh my

SPEAKER_03 (58:22):
goodness

SPEAKER_02 (58:31):
you're doing amazing work where can people find you

SPEAKER_01 (58:34):
Yeah, we're everywhere.
You can always call.
I have my number on my websiteand everywhere.
But our website isalightafter9.org.
Our Instagram is alightafter9.
TikTok is actually my name,R-N-D-U-M-A-S-R-N, Rachelle
Dumas, R-N.
And we're also on threads,alightafter9 and Facebook and

(58:56):
LinkedIn.
You can find me by using myname, Rachelle Dumas.
And I'll be happy.
You can find me any type of way.
I make it super accessible.
You can find me and I'll bethere.

SPEAKER_02 (59:06):
That's amazing.
And we'll put all your links inthe show notes so that people
can connect with you andparticipate in this incredible
movement that you are startingwith all this fuel from your own
lived experience.

SPEAKER_01 (59:20):
Yeah, I'm very passionate about it.
I barely sleep.
I hope I don't look too badright now.
I probably got puffs under myeye, but very passionate about
it.
And I'm working day and night toput a dent in these issues and
this crisis that we're facingright now.

SPEAKER_02 (59:35):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
Thank you for doing it.
Thank you.
We need more folks just like youand, um, you know, Babel Mia is
we're here cheering you on andsupporting you however we can.
Thank you so much for coming onthe podcast and y'all reach out
and check out everything thatlight after nine is doing.

(59:56):
Um, they're in their, in theirbaby stages and have, um, big
things to accomplish.
So the more people we can getbehind these movements, the
bigger the impact will be.
And we can be saving birthingpeople and their babies and
making these shifts that are soneeded in our healthcare
systems.
Absolutely.

(01:00:17):
Thank you.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:23):
Want to keep hanging out?
We have created a free mindsetmini course to help change
makers and birth workers findbliss in their business.
You're not in this alone.
Let's build together.
Head to www.babomia.com slashbib to grab your space and a
free retreat.
Once again, go towww.babomia.com slash bib to

(01:00:49):
grab your spot.
We will see you next time on theHot and Brave Podcast.
podcast.

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S4 E10 - Pregnancy after 9 losses with Rachell Dumas of A Light After Nine

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