S4 E11 - 10 Things NOT To Do With Loss Families with Vallen Webb - Hot+Brave

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with
Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia,where you will hear brave
stories, hot topics and truthbombs that will either light
fire to your rage or be the balmyou need for your soul.

SPEAKER_02 (00:19):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Hot and
Brave podcast.
I'm your host, Bianca Sprague,and I am so excited to have you
this week joining us for anepisode.
I feel like I'm very slow movingthis week.
I'm going to give this as acaveat before I start this
episode.
Even though I'm still sprintingalong with, you know, my sports

(00:41):
and arts and volunteering andhobbies.
Oh my.
Even though I've been going tobed like nine-ish.
I had to take a nap today for 90minutes.
It was wild.
So I listened to my body eventhough it was wildly
inconvenient and I napped.
Now I feel a little bit groggyso we are going to see how tired

(01:03):
I am at 9 p.m.
tonight.
Oh I also started to learn toquilt this week which I'm really
excited about.
I'll keep you all updated on howthis goes.
I went to a lecture this weekgiven by Dr.
wanda thomas bernard and she isa canadian senator um and she

(01:24):
was talking about representationthat's what the it was a sober
second thought on representationmattering um and senator bernard
uh she is a social workerresearcher activist i'm guessing
probably author educator umshe's a prof uh as well as sits
on the senate um and listeningto her speak was really

(01:47):
incredible she's the firstAfrican Canadian Nova Scotian
woman in the Senate and shecalls for research in areas that
are really near and dear to myheart like the true numbers
around forced sterilization whathappens there with the lack of
informed consent what's neededfor prison reform she did some

(02:07):
interesting work for transrights and she really demands
this research to be the muchneeded checks and balances here
in the Canadian government Itjust made me really grateful
that there's people like herdoing this work for vulnerable
and underserved communities.
And it kind of, it set the righttone for my week, especially

(02:28):
because I still feel like I'vegot this, you know, crazy
emotional hangover from theAmerican election, which
obviously has a huge impact oncommunities I care deeply about,
people I care deeply about, andunfortunately a ripple effect up
into Canada.
Yeah.
What else happened this week?
Oh, I got a new client thisweek, and I'm already so in love

(02:51):
with them.
They're in their fourthtrimester, so it's really early.
But it's...
It's, I don't know how todescribe it.
It's really fun starting mydoula practice in a new place.
I mean, hang on.
I did really like the constantstream of word of mouth clients
back in Toronto, which happensfor, you know, when you're a
doula for two decades in thesame place.

(03:13):
Don't get me wrong.
That ease was real nice.
However, here, I have this likelike the same excitement energy
as my early days as a doula.
Like, oh, so many years ago whenI would get my clients like, ah,
my second client like that.
and um it's really fun I'm onlytaking maybe four four clients a

(03:38):
year and so far they're timingjust perfectly um so I mean if
anybody lives in uh theAntigonish area and is looking
for doula care I do have awinter spot open um but no I'm
really enjoying it a lot um I'vealso been doing a lot of
one-on-one doula businessconsulting with folks and I'm

(04:00):
very enjoying that as well um II really love holding your hand
through your startup and yourscale up for your fertility,
birth and postpartum business.
So, I mean, if you want moreclients and you're ready to do
the work, grab some one-on-onetime with me and let's do it
together.
It can be really lonely workingalone and to collaborate with
someone else, especially someonelike me, this person, me, grew

(04:24):
multiple six-figure birthbusinesses and even a
seven-figure business.
So it can really help to havesomebody there as a sounding
board and hold you accountableand, you know, really cheer you
on and just point you in theright direction.
So I also scrapped thenewsletter last month.

(04:44):
You might have seen it in mylittle write-up, but it wasn't
really bringing me joy after 10years of doing it.
Actually, probably more.
I think we started it probablylike 14 years ago.
And in its place, I introducedthe Five Things Friday.
I'd really love to hear abouthow you like it.
For those of you on the mailinglist do you like the five things
friday i'm really enjoyingputting it together and sharing

(05:08):
experiences and products andbooks podcasts software tips and
doing that each week i'm findingit very fun to put together like
i get a bit giddy when i when iget to write it on thursday
night for it to come up onfriday morning um oh i have an
ask while you're in that appCould you hit those five stars
like right now in whatever appyou're listening to, listening

(05:32):
in, listening to this episodewithin?
Those stars and reviews mean somuch to us and they really help
our ratings.
And I think I'm going to put alittle more effort into the
ratings rather than just havingthe podcast be something passive
that we share with ourcommunity.
Also, Early Bird opened thisweek.
Get your spot for our fullspectrum doula training that

(05:54):
starts March 2025.
Make 2025 the year of the doula.
And then you can go change thelives of families in your
community.
And we would really love to haveyou.
And I mean, I know this is thebest doula training out there
because we make sure you areready in every way needed to do
fertility, pregnancy, birth, andparenting care with your

(06:16):
clients.
We get you ready literally bodyand soul.
And we get you just like feelingreally competent and confident.
Yeah.
It's great.
It's a great program.
Our maternal supportpractitioner training.
It is open for registration.
about this episode.
So this week, we are going to betalking about infant loss.

(06:38):
So I just wanted you to check inwhere your heart is right now
before starting this episode orcontinuing on this episode.
I would suggest that you wearyour headphones for this one
because we cuss and we talkabout topics you might not
discuss with the little earsaround you.
For this one, I'm joined byValen Webb, who is the founder
of Evelyn James& Co.
She is a dear friend and anexpert on bereavement.

(07:00):
She's a doula and a mom.
She has five children and sheexperienced a stillbirth five
years ago when her husband wasdeployed.
So she was completely alone whenshe gave birth to Evelyn and for
a couple days after.
And so Valen and I just finishedbuilding a 911 loss kit for

(07:21):
doulas and it hit the shelvesthis weekend.
We talk about the kit a littlebit during the episode and I
cannot highlight enough hownecessary this is for all doulas
to have like seriously whenyou're buying your tens machine
and your notebook and I don'tknow all the things I can't even
think of what's in a birth bagor postpartum bag right now even

(07:43):
though I have a great list foryou but seriously it is such a
good thing for you to have andif you do have a client right
now experiencing a loss it's aneven better thing for you to
make sure that you have havethat tool available check out
the show notes for moreinformation and And for this
episode, Valin and I wanted toshare some of our major blunders

(08:06):
when we first supported loss.
And we gathered also a wholebunch of other mistakes we see
happen to our clients.
So without further ado, here ismy chat with Valin this week,
all about mistakes to avoid whentalking to somebody who has just
experienced a loss.
Hello, Valin.
Welcome to the Hot and Bravepodcast.

(08:31):
Hi.

UNKNOWN (08:31):
Hi.

SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
I'm very excited you're here.
The topic is a heavy one, butone of my favorite things about
you is how you can create anaccessibility and a lightness to
talking about loss because thereality is when we do birth
work, when we do care work, youknow, we are going to be

(08:52):
supporting death and it kind ofcomes with with that life cycle.
And so I'm excited for us totalk about kind of the mistake
perspective so that people knowthe things to avoid.
And guys, we're going to shareour stories today too.
Like our own personal blendersso that you can see that there's

(09:15):
a growth trajectory with this,like any type of work.

SPEAKER_01 (09:21):
Yeah, there is.
I think a lot of us too, weavoid it because it's, we're
worried about making thosemistakes in general.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It'll be good.
This will be a really goodconversation.

SPEAKER_02 (09:33):
Excellent.
So did you want to start with ussharing some of our personal
blunders so that people can likewarm up and not feel so shamey
if they've, if you've made someof these mistakes?

SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
Yeah.
Okay.
The very first family that Iserved, like, this was probably
six months after my loss and thewhole time in the car, like on
the way to the hospital, I'mlike, what do I say?
What do I do?
What, what did this happen?
What if this happens?
What if I can't handle it?

(10:06):
What if I, you know, themillions of questions that go
through your brain and I'm like,okay, Valen, if you, if you
don't do anything, just don'task them how they're doing.
Like that's cause obviouslythey're doing terrible.
Um, And I got to the hospitalroom.
I checked in with the nurse'sstation and I saw them and

(10:30):
they're holding their baby.
And I'm just like, how are youdoing?
It's

SPEAKER_02 (10:38):
because you had like looped on it.
So your brain was like,

SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
say, how are you doing?
I literally made it happenbecause that's all I was
thinking about.
And I, I, I, they looked at eachother like, what the fuck?
Like what?
And I just was like, okay, whatI meant was how are you feeling?
How is your body feeling afterhaving the baby?

(11:04):
How are you processing this?
How are you, you know, trying tomake it seem like I do kind of
know what I'm doing and I'm nota total idiot.
Like, you know, But from thereon out, it went well and I
learned a lot.
And then also with this family,I was taken back because they
had a, I don't know if he was apastor or a priest.

(11:29):
You'll have to forgive me.
I'm not religious.
So I do not know.
He was, somebody from the churchcame to like do their prayer and
they, They were like, do youwant to do it with us?
Like, do you want to pray withus and stuff?
And I love that.
And I totally would have, butinstead I was like, you know,
I'll video it for you.
That way you have this, youknow, beautiful moment.

(11:52):
But I got to like witness that.
And that was so, so cool.
But the other thing that I waslike, wow, is me and the, I was
getting ready to go.
And so was the pastor or thepriest.
And we went out in the hallwayand he's like, how'd I do?
He's like, I've never beenthrough this before.

(12:14):
How did I do?
In shock.
Cause it was like my firstfamily.
Like, obviously I hadexperienced it as a mom.
But like this being my firstexperience, he thought that I
was doing really good.
Obviously if he's asking myopinion.
So then I, you know, it didn'treally think that I messed up
the whole day, but yeah.
When somebody like that, wherewho you deem with authority,

(12:36):
like, and who, And was just, youknow, I was like, wow, I thought
you did really great.
I thought you were like, he wassaying all the right things.
Like he was validating them.
He was using the baby's name.
He wasn't even, even though hewas a religious, you know,
what's it called?
Like a person.
Figure.

(12:57):
He didn't put that, even thoughthey would have been comfortable
because that's their, theirreligion.
Yeah.
And, but he

SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
didn't use that kind of like dogmatic, like what
we're going to talk about lateras one of the mistakes.
Exactly.
Like, and it was really

SPEAKER_01 (13:10):
cool to see that just the whole, the whole day
unfold.
And then me feeling like that Iwas doing really good, obviously
after messing up in thebeginning and saying like the
stupidest thing.
And it's not even like the worstthing you can say, because I
mean, what else are you going tosay besides I'm sorry, there's
other things you can say, but itwas like not the worst.

(13:32):
But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
I have some questions for you.
How did you feel aboutsupporting a loss so soon after
having your own stillbirth?

SPEAKER_01 (13:48):
For me, I felt like I needed to do it.
When it was me and not havinganybody except my doula, we had
to navigate that on our own.
And I don't know, just, justwatching her take care of me and

(14:11):
like how, like, I really trulyfeel I would have just, I don't
know.
I would just would have diedthat day, like without her and
the way and how fiercely sheadvocated for me.
And so I just wanted to be thatfor other people.
And yeah, I just, I mean, fourmonths before my loss happened,

(14:35):
I, had taken my postpartum doulatraining.
And cause that's what I wantedto do after Evelyn was born.
And, you know, I was throughthat postpartum phase.
So I really just, it was likekind of, it's, it was set up for
me to just do.
And it, to me, it's not theworst thing to me.
Like, how do I rephrase that?

(14:58):
Losing a baby is the worstthing, but, but supporting those
people and, Supporting familiesthat lose babies is not, to me,
it's like the best thing I couldever do.
So I just had a real pull.
Like I just wanted to do it likeright away just because of the
experience that I had and howyou could tell who knew what to

(15:18):
do and who didn't and like howit affected me and the care that
I was getting and how itaffected how I was feeling about
the whole situation.
It's really important.
So yeah, I just, for me, it waslike what I was meant to do.
Sounds so cliche, but yeah, Iloved it.

SPEAKER_02 (15:39):
That's amazing.
How many people said, how manypeople said, how are you doing
to you after your ownstillbirth?

SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
Not a one.
Really?
Not like directly in thehospital.
A few months after, like I wouldbe asked that, but like in the
hospital, no, like they wouldjust come and put their hand on
me, you know, on my arm or like,what do you need right now?
Or my midwife Gretchen was thefucking best because she's like,

(16:10):
give her all the drugs shewants.
Like she's been doing this forlike 40 years.
Like, so she's experienced somany of them.
And obviously because the babyhad passed, there was no
detriment to the baby with allthe medication that they were
giving me and that I wanted.
Yeah.
So, you know, she made sure assoon as that like half-life of a

(16:30):
medication was gone, I would getmore.
Like, so she was just so funnyabout it.
And so just like the nurseslooking at her, like questioning
what she was doing.
And she's like, go do it.
You heard what she said.
Like, she was just, it wasamazing compared to the one
before, right before shiftchange that had coerced me into
giving birth in a way I didn'twant to.

(16:50):
So just the experience andhaving two totally different,
midwives I also

SPEAKER_02 (16:59):
said a insane thing actually I have two one of them
was just in passing one of myfriends I didn't know she was
pregnant and I didn't know shehad a loss and so well after
like a year later she told meand I don't know why it was like
the first thing that came out Iwas like are you kidding me but
it was mostly in a way to saylike I would have supported you.

(17:20):
How did I not know?
I saw you like we were stilltogether pretty frequently.
And so she was like, no, whywould I joke about that?
And I was like, she didn't getthe, I didn't, but I'm like, it
is a weird thing to say.
It's the same as saying like,how, how do you, how are you
doing?
So that as soon as you saidthat, I was like, oh yeah, I

(17:42):
said that to one of my friendslike recently, like a couple of
years ago, but the first familythat, yeah, Their situation,
anyway, they had some medicalcoercion.
And so they were forced to be onbed rest past the day where you
could terminate in Canada.
But they would have terminated.

(18:03):
So anyway, the complicated thingis they had to fly down to New
York, terminate.
Yeah.
because it just crossed into thethird trimester and then fly
home.
But they were like, not sureabout the viability because
their membranes had ruptured,but it was so early.
And like, anyway, and they, theychose to not risk all the

(18:24):
choices that they made.
They didn't want to give birthto this baby live.
But I didn't have all thisinformation yet.
So they called me, I'd alreadyhad a live birth with them two
years before and, They called memaybe like two weeks before this
all happened saying like, hey,we're pregnant again.
We'd like to hire you.
And I was like, yeah, yeah,yeah.
As we get closer, I'll just likesend over stuff.

(18:46):
And like, it was really casual.
Fast forward like 10 days andthey call me and they're like,
hey, we're at this hospital.
Can you come meet us here?
And I was like, oh, that'sweird.
You know, whatever.
We're there.
And so I came in and sat on thebed.
So they had a lot of thisinformation.
I still didn't, which this isthere's a lot of there's a lot

(19:07):
of pro tips you can learn fromthis mistake.
So I came in, sat on the bed.
How are you guys feeling?
Because I didn't know why theywere in the hospital yet.
And I was like, you know, whyare we here?
And they said, okay, well, she,talking about the baby, and had
their hands on the belly.
And I was like, oh my gosh, youguys, you're going to have a boy

(19:29):
and a girl like this.
Like, cut her off.
To be like, a million dollarfamily.
I was a very new doula.
And then she was like, is...
not viable and I was like mmmthis is a very different
situation and I thought youmight be having some like issues

(19:52):
with diabetes or like I don'tknow like that the mom was there
for some kind of health thingnot that they are about to walk
into like the worst fucking weekof their lives and it like
haunts me this like peppy You'regoing to have a boy and a girl

(20:14):
thing.
And then I was like, ugh, later,like, sweats when I thought
about it.
I also, maybe you can, we'lledit this out if it doesn't work
out.
Maybe, Valen, you could be mycheck-in.
So they did not want to see thebaby.
They didn't want to touch thebaby.
They wanted, they were like, gether on out of this room.

(20:34):
And so I checked in a few timesto be like, Are you guys sure?
Did you want me to takepictures?
And then I can like delete themlater if you never want them.
Do you want to do like, youknow, and the nurses kept coming
in being like, we could do handand footprints.
Like most people want themlater, but, and they were like,
no, don't do it.
And I felt just really weirdabout their baby, just like

(20:57):
going in a box and not havingcare.
And so I like washed their babyand held her for like, Half an
hour secretly.
And I've always felt a littlebit weird about it.
Cause I, but I was like, I just,it feels so wrong to just not
have this baby's life honored.
Like whatever, whatever herlittle purpose was right now.

(21:21):
She

SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
made

SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
me

SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
love

SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
you

SPEAKER_01 (21:22):
even more.
Oh,

SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
really?
I always had this, like, did Iviolate their boundaries for my
needs?
I've

SPEAKER_01 (21:30):
always wondered about that.
I would say no, because I,Imagine if they had changed
their mind and the baby didn'tget bathed or wasn't dressed,
you know, things like that.
To me, I would have lovedknowing that Evelyn was being
held and like loved on.
Like if I couldn't, or if Iwasn't there, like even when I

(21:52):
had to leave the hospital andshe was in the bassinet, like I
hated it.
Like, no, no.
I wouldn't know.
I think that's beautiful thatyou did that because I bet you
even now they think about it andthey wish that they would have
done these things.
And even if they hadn't, they,they would never be mad at

(22:13):
somebody.
I don't think for loving ontheir baby.
I mean,

SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
all right.
Guys, I've never told thisstory.
Everyone got to hear it in realtime.
My confession of snuggling theirbaby.
And no surprise, they didn'thire me for their next
pregnancy, which makes sensebecause I bumped into them in
Toronto and they had anotherbaby.

(22:38):
More babies.
And I was like, I felt a littlestung at first because I was
like, oh, we've had two birthstogether.
But then I was like, oh, butyour last one was...
terrible for you like there wasso much trauma and sadness and
and I didn't know at the timehow common that is that you
don't necessarily see like bringback somebody who supported you

(22:59):
through a loss again like somepeople change hospitals they get
a different provider they don'thave the same doula but at the
time I didn't know that so I myfeelings were a little bit hurt
but now I'm like yeah for sure Ican see why you don't want to
see me again

SPEAKER_01 (23:12):
yeah and it's it's this is one of those things
where um One, yes, thatdefinitely is painful because
you're like, you kind of, well,it's not wrong, but we're human.
So we're going to think it's us.
We're going to think it's ourfault or we did something.

(23:33):
When in reality, we wereunfortunately part of the worst
day of their life.
And that is how we remind them.
Same with like doctors andnurses.
For me, I hired the same doulabecause to me, And this is where
you'll see how different peopleare.
Like, we're so different fromthe way we were raised and the

(23:56):
environments we grew up in, thepeople we're surrounded by.
Like, there's a million factorsthat goes into it.
But for me, of course, I hadKendra back because we were
like, we're going to have afucking healthy living baby and
it's going to be amazing.
And like, it was so cathartic.
Like, the whole experience of myrainbow baby.

(24:18):
But yeah, that is not always thecase.
And it can be reallyheartbreaking.

SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
Well, especially because their whole thing was
like, this event never happened.
We don't want to see her.
We don't want pictures of her.
We're going to like block this,this seven months out as like,
we don't know where that timewent.
So I was like, of course, you'renot going to want me back.
Like I'm part of the, let'snever look at that again.
So it's really not surprising.

(24:47):
And it's not surprising that youloved your doula and wanted to
have a rainbow baby with herbecause she, you know, filled a
role that was like, you wantedto pull her in and, and you, you
know, honor Evelyn, you talkabout Evelyn, like her legacy
is, is phenomenal.
you know, big and loud andmaking ripple effects all over
the world.

(25:08):
And, and your doula was such asignificant, profound part of
that story and journey for you.
And

SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
a big piece too, was like, I felt, I mean, because
she had experienced that traumaas well.
Like, so for me, it was like, Iwas able to give her peace of
mind in some way, you know,knowing like, I don't know that

(25:35):
it just happened and it wasterrible and we, we got through
it, but there is a better side.
And we were able to have ourrainbow baby, you know, and you
were able to be there toexperience the happiness, you
know?

SPEAKER_03 (25:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
Cause at the time she had, she had, I forget how
old she was at the time, but shewas still breastfeeding.
So like, you know, she's likewanting, she's having to leave,
but she doesn't want toobviously.
Cause I had nobody else.
She called one of my neighborsand, to come over and be with me
and stuff.
But yeah, the experiences aregoing to be different for every

(26:10):
single family that you take careof after loss.
Like, yeah, it's, it's a lot ofvariation.
And I think that's a big part ofwhat me and Bianca are trying to
express to you is the variation.
So don't ever go in expecting itto be a certain way, drop all
expectations actually, and just,just be there.

SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We do have some things not todo.
We're going to go through thosewith you.
Dear listeners who we adore,thanks for hanging out with us
today again.
I think one of the ones that Istruggle with...
I think because I handle loss ina way that you do Valen, like, I

(26:53):
think it's important to talkabout it.
I think like for me.
And so I do struggle where I'mlike, Ooh, I know a lot of
people don't want to.
So one of the first mistakes wewanted to share with everybody
is, you know, like not talkingabout the baby, not using the
baby's name, those sorts ofthings.
But I know I watch people aroundme.
Like when I see a Monarch, forexample, a butterfly, I'm always

(27:15):
like, Oh, it's my dead baby.
Like I'm, And I know to somepeople, they're like, ah, like,
that's so weird.
And I'm like, that's how I feelwhen I see a monarch butterfly.
Well,

SPEAKER_01 (27:29):
I'm a perfect example for you because we were
at a baby shower yesterday.
And...
You know, not the perfect timeto talk about a deceased baby.
And my daughters were with me.
And my daughter, my oldest, shewas five when Evelyn was born.
So she was very aware, veryexcited.
And my friend's aunt was like,oh, how many kids do you have?

(27:52):
You know, and I'm like, I havetwo girls and two boys.
I'm just trying to keep itlight.
And Callie's sitting rightbehind me.
She's like, three girls.
You have three daughters.
I'm like...
I forget.
Okay.
And I'm like, okay, yes, we, Ido have a third daughter.
She, she died.
You're trying to keep it quietnow.

(28:13):
And I'm like, I do, but she's.
I know.
I know.
I'm just, I had to have a talkin the car with her later.
Like just about.
It's not that it was wrong atall.
Evelyn is valid everywhere, butbecause it's a baby shower, we

(28:36):
don't want to express deathabout a baby and the happiness
of a baby.
So hard to explain to 10 yearold guys.
But the aunt was like, we lost ababy too.
So it was like, damn it.
See, and she would, I neverwould have known that if my
daughter hadn't thrown that outthere.

(28:57):
Like it's so common.
It's so common.
Like I tell every doula, like ifyou've, if you've taken care of
at least four families, one ofthem has had at least one loss.
If not more, like whether theytell you or not.

SPEAKER_02 (29:13):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
And I think we can startnormalizing.
I'm on a mission all over theplace to normalize things.
Like after losing my dad tosuicide, I was like, let's talk
about suicide, everybody all thetime.
And I think that's the samething with infant loss that I'm
just like, Let's let's talkabout this.
And so people don't have tosuffer in silence.

(29:34):
And so one of the things islike, you know, avoiding unless
the family has explicitly said,like, I was not going to send a
thinking of you text to thisfamily that was like, We're
never talking about this again.
Like we're going to pretend thisnever happened.
I literally put a black markacross their spreadsheet where I

(29:55):
track all my client files andKelly knew not to contact them
again.
Like really clearly they had aboundary around that.
But if you're not sure...
err on the side of reach out youdon't necessarily have to use
the baby's name or if that feelslike you don't know where
they're at with that but justlike thinking of you or
something like that i mean valenthis is your area yeah well it

(30:17):
doesn't have to be

SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
it can just be thinking of you i know this is a
hard week you know here's astarbucks card you go get
yourself a coffee or I mean, thethinking of you card is fine.
Not having to mention the baby,just mentioning, we know that
you might be struggling rightnow.
I feel like that's the best bet.
And yes.
Yeah.
If you have a, an experiencelike Bianca, where they were

(30:43):
explicitly, no, no, never again,read the room and obviously do
everything accordingly.
You know?
So some of the things we tellyou to do for families, these
families will not be includedin,

SPEAKER_00 (30:58):
Like,

SPEAKER_01 (30:59):
yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (31:00):
Yeah.
Cause we send cards and stuff onlike first birthdays, regardless
of outcome.
Yeah.
And sometimes it's different.
Like my best friend had astillbirth and she can like kind
of talk about it sometimes, butvery kind of like, yeah, that
happened and everybody needs toget over it.
But yeah, you cannot evenmention it happening around her

(31:22):
husband like it's just a no-golike you have to pretend it
didn't happen so like I have tobe really strategic when I think
about um think about thosethings it was also so weird I
didn't put it together it was mydad's birthday that this this
stillbirth happened which Isupported like and this year she
was like oh it's a heavy day forboth of us and I was like what

(31:43):
are you talking about and Inever I I don't know.
I just got into my own griefcycle, which mine happened after
hers.
So it like wiped the day in mymind for hers and became mine
until this year.
And I was like, oh, put thatback in the calendar, Bianca.
You have some care to do therefor your best friend.

(32:05):
Oh, man.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a mistake that we want tostart with.
It's like, don't avoid talkingabout it.
Don't, you know, if they didname their baby, use it when
you're referencing them.

SPEAKER_01 (32:18):
Boundaries are going to be super important for the
family to set and for us to setas doulas.
Making things clear as possible.
What did you say?
Clear as kind?
Yes, clear as kind, y'all.
In this case, it is extremely...
extremely respectful and kind tobe clear about how you can

(32:41):
support them and what your jobduties are and also helping them
learn how to set boundaries.
But in this case, since we'retalking about mistakes we make,
we'll talk about, so say theywent home, they're, you know,
it's the first or second weekand they're working with the

(33:01):
funeral home and they're kindof, you know, having to make all
these big decisions and like,You just show up.
Don't do that.
Don't do that anytime.
Anytime, please.
I'm a mom of four.
And if anybody shows up, I'mlike, this is really
inconvenient.
I won't tell you that to yourface, but it's inconvenient.

(33:23):
But if they're like, this iswhere you communicate.
Like if you are going to visitthem or if you're going to go
see them or bring themsomething, And I guess this will
go into two of the mistakes andsetting those boundaries or I'm
sorry, not oversteppingboundaries.
Sending a text.
Hey, I would love to bring you ameal.
I would love to bring you adrink.

(33:44):
I would love to drop off thisgift or card that I got.
Is it okay if I stop by and putit on your porch?
Like being a hundred percenttransparent, open about this.
And if they say no, accept it.
But yeah, not just showing upnot overwhelming them with
questions like you know ortexting them repeatedly or

(34:06):
excessively if they're nottalking to you back um a lot of
the families that i supportwon't text me back for weeks and
it's not because they purposelydo it it's because they're going
through something extremelyemotionally um and they don't
have the capacity to send a yeahyeah, I could use some help with

(34:30):
this or I need this.
Like, no, they don't have it inthem.
And that also goes into thefailing.
I'll just bring it into thefailing to offer specific
support.
This is where we support ourfamilies into like, instead of
saying, how can I help you?
Like, what do you need?

(34:52):
Those are like, no, that's nothow you talk to families.
Okay, you need to say, okay, ifthey have other kids?
Do you need me to, like, if it'sa grandparent, I can pick up the
kids this week from school.
I can bring them to soccerpractice.
I can come walk the dog everyday for you.
You know, or is this a good, isthis something that would be

(35:14):
helpful for you if I take your,you know, your comforters to the
dry cleaners?
Like, There's so many things.
And one thing that you can dothat's really helpful if you're
supporting them in thepostpartum through loss, even
with my postpartum clients withhappy outcomes and living
babies, we put a notebook on thecounter.
Some families and some peoplefind it very hard to ask for

(35:38):
help.
So when I'm not there, they canwrite down all their questions.
They can write down things theyneed help with before I come.
And I just go to the notebook.
I don't even ask them what theyneed.
I can say hi, obviously checkin, see how like the postpartum
healing is coming.
And then I just kind of get towork on the notebook.

(35:59):
Like sometimes that requires melike reaching out to their
parents or, you know, whatever,helping them navigate all that
logistical crap, orderinggroceries, like, so making sure
to be specific in your help.
Don't just blanket statement sothat you feel good enough that
you did offer, but they don'ttake you up on it.

SPEAKER_02 (36:23):
Yeah.
And one of the things you can dois also come up with these,
these lists and like, likebalance notebook there.
You could also have a likepost-its on the, on their
counter that is like meals fordinners, Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday, walking the dog,these, and like, almost like the
reverse meal chain that peoplecan just grab them cleaning the

(36:44):
bathrooms and somebody pullsthat post-it and they go and
clean the bathroom so that whenpeople are coming into the home
like their friends and familythat are allowed to not just
drop things off on the porchthey don't have to ask the
family either um and as doulaswe can come up with an easy at
least 10 post-its every time wecame to put down for people like

(37:05):
cleaning out the litter box,like just, you know, those kinds
of things that we know will needhelp.
But that family has decisionfatigue because they're, you
know, they can't.
I had a question for you, Valen,about the text, like not texting
too much.
do you find it helpful or wouldyou recommend rather than asking
a question, but just likesending, like, I'm thinking of

(37:27):
you, um, those kinds of texts,even if they're not answering
you back, not like every day,but I don't know, once a week,
if you haven't heard from them,just be like, my thoughts are
with you.
Um, you know, I'm, I'm here ifyou need me kind of things.

SPEAKER_01 (37:42):
Yeah.
Especially, um, So I feel likethe first week I'll text like
two or three times seeing what,you know, what type of support
they need, if they need it, ifthey need help finding
resources.
And then, yeah, just tellingthem, I'm thinking about you.
Like, I know how hard this weekis.

(38:03):
I know that all the decisionsthat you're having to make right
now is just the worst.
Yeah.
And then every week I feel likeis great.
The first month.
I mean, if you get the sensethat, they just don't want to
talk to you or like they nevertext you back or whatever it is,

(38:23):
you know, once a month afterthat, maybe for a couple of
months, but it's, it's one ofthose things that's very
individual to the family thatyou're serving.
You really have to listen toyour gut when it, when it's, I
feel like we know, like asdoulas, we already know how to

(38:44):
quietly support and, So justreally tuning in and listening
to what feels good.
And especially if they'veprenatally taken care of these
clients, they, they kind of knowthem.
They know how they, theyinteract and they know how they
answer their phone or like,don't like, they know these
things and just kind of drawingfrom that.

(39:05):
That's a good point.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (39:08):
Yeah.
I also really like, anytime I'vehad a tough time in my life,
like, I don't know, goingthrough a divorce, my dad dying,
those kinds of things, thosesorts of things.
I always really appreciated whenpeople added the caveat.
I don't expect you to text meback like explicitly.

(39:28):
Cause even still when I'd belike, Oh man, I, you know, It
was hard to just really take inthe love because I kept thinking
like, fuck, now this is anotherthing I have to do.
It's right back to all thesepeople.
And so I couldn't really take itin.
Any time somebody says, hey, I'mjust thinking about you.
don't worry, you don't have totext me back.

(39:50):
I feel so calm and I can likejust feel the love from it.
I'm also super introvert.
So even at the best of timeswhen texts come up, I'm like,
ah, I know you're my friends,but I wish you didn't text me.
So I think that's a helpful,like being that kind of clear
with the expectations of it.
Okay.

(40:10):
I know we touched on these nextmistakes.
We've got the two, two, but Iwant to circle back and just
like really clearly highlightaround some of these kind of
like trite platitudes thatpeople use.
And I know we kind of indicatedone with religion, but let's
just start like not thereligious stuff, but you know, I

(40:33):
think this is so common becausewe don't know what to do around
loss.
We're so death averse.
We're so lost.
Like we essentially are like,just don't look at it and try to
like distract people throughthings.
Um, but let's talk about justlike the statements we just need
to eradicate when we're talkingabout death.

SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
Yeah.
Okay.
I'd like to say, uh, our culturehas cut itself off so far from
death.
It's insane.
And birth and death are like oneof the same.
And what I mean is like, there'sa veil in between them.

(41:17):
It's magical.
Like all this shit, like life ismagical.
And like crossing over that veilfrom not being to being in a
physical body, like all thisstuff, like, we have to get back
to that and understand thatdeath is hard and terrible and
all these things, but it's alsoa beautiful time to like, just

(41:42):
realize how amazing it is beinga human.

SPEAKER_02 (41:44):
And like, yeah, well, it's another transition.
It's

SPEAKER_01 (41:47):
a life cycle transition.
And like a lot of the platitudesthat we hear.
Okay.
So like, she's not sufferingnow.
Or they're in a

SPEAKER_03 (42:01):
better

SPEAKER_01 (42:01):
place.
You're in a, she's in a betterplace.
She's with God.
She's with Jesus.
She's with relatives.
She is, you know, maybe if shehad some sort of genetic
anomalies or something, maybeshe's not in pain anymore.
She's not suffering or, youknow, you're still young enough
to have other children.

(42:21):
Yeah.
I love

SPEAKER_02 (42:22):
the least, you know, you can have, you can get
pregnant.

UNKNOWN (42:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (42:26):
At least you can start trying in a few months.
Like you can have other babies.

SPEAKER_01 (42:34):
As if pregnancy isn't hard enough.
And most like, I don't know.
I, I suffered throughpregnancies.
Like I did not enjoy pregnanciesexcept for.
And then.
Oh,

SPEAKER_03 (42:44):
really?

SPEAKER_01 (42:45):
Yes.
It was the most perfectpregnancy, which is something
that pissed me off.
I'm so mad.
But like, yeah.

UNKNOWN (42:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (42:57):
I feel like now as I'm like five years out from the
loss, I, I used to hate thewhole silver linings thing, like
finding those things to make itbetter.
There's no reason that babiesdie.
There are some, like, I want tosay early miscarriage and stuff
where your body knowssomething's wrong and it kind of

(43:19):
does its thing and that doesn'tmake it feel better.
It doesn't take away that thesewere our babies are very loved
babies and But there's a reasonyour body did that in the
beginning because it was 80 or90% of like early miscarriages
are because of the geneticanomalies that happen.

(43:40):
But your body knows, which iswild.
Like we have a perfect operatingsystem here.
And those silver linings though,like I literally wanted to slap
anybody who came at me withthem.
And now though, I feel I seethem more and more.

(44:01):
So even though none of thosethings should ever be said to
people, I find the farther out Iam from my loss, the more I can
see where they were coming from.
And a lot of the things thatpeople say, like you already

(44:23):
said is because they'reuncomfortable.
They have to fill that silencewith something.
They have to, they, they want tomake you feel better.
And most of the time, like ifthey're saying this, they've
never been through it.
So they think that their wordscan, you know, lift your spirit
or take away the pain.
And it's just not the case.

(44:45):
And I feel like it just comesfrom a really uneducated culture
of where we've tried to separateourselves from death.
So, you know, and it's like ifthis we were kind of talking
about this before, if it was afull grown adult, we go through
all the pomp and circumstance.
We go through all the wakes andfunerals and celebrations.

(45:06):
How come this isn't the same forour babies?

SPEAKER_02 (45:10):
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (45:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:11):
Yeah.
I mean, I think generally we'rejust, we struggle with feelings
we've deemed as bad, which arelike sadness, anger, loss,
grief, and try to keep us in thefeelings that we think are good,
which are like happy, excited,passionate.
And so I think in general, likeI know even sometimes when I

(45:31):
share like, oh, I had a crappyweek, fill in the blank.
Most of my friends would do thelike, well, at least like it's
over now.
Or like, but you had that partyand you said that was fun.
And I I'm like, two things canbe true.
I can have a bad week and enjoythat.
And I know when my dad died,nobody talks about my dead baby
like at all.
And I was like so shocked at howpeople like just wanted, you

(45:58):
know, exactly what we're talkingabout.
Those kind of silver liningsmake you feel better.
But I now know that.
that the silver linings, as doyou, they're always there when
we have the opportunity to feelall of our feelings move
through.
And there's like beautiful giftson the other side, but you
can't, you have, it's like, theprocess that is what gives you

(46:22):
those gifts.
Right.
And so you can't rush thosethings.
And now I've gotten to the pointwhen bad shit happens to me, I'm
like, Oh, hot damn.
I can't wait to see the giftsI'm going to get from this.
And then I'm like, no, no, no.
The gifts come when you feelyour feelings because like, I
mean, I know my dad was a fullgrown human, but like, you know,
suicide fucks you up.

(46:42):
It's like a really crazy causeof death, but like it is,
Probably Gray's birth and thatare like the two things I'm the
most grateful for.
And I hated being a mom and Ihated losing my dad to suicide.
And so, but they was because ofthe struggle and what I grew and
what I learned and my heartbreaking open and like all of

(47:03):
these things, it, it createdBebo Mia, it created so much
healing work it did.
It created, you know, healingwork for me, boundaries work,
like all of this stuff that I'mso grateful for that I wouldn't
trade.
loss of my dad and you know nowwatching you with Evelyn's
legacy um like you wouldn't haveany of those things without

(47:24):
those loss but you can't talkyou can't focus on that in the
first weeks months even yearsbecause you don't know what
those silver linings are there'sno silver lining in that moment
none and yet at all people likefocus on those things.
Like, well, you know, you didsay it was a bad time for you

(47:45):
guys to have a baby or like youare in the middle of moving.
Like, so you're welcome.
The universe heard you.
Or it

SPEAKER_01 (47:53):
wasn't meant to be like, Oh my God.
And those things are for them.
That's not even for us whenthey're saying them, like they,
they have to fill their brainback with like these happy
little things because a deadbaby is is pretty awful.
And again, what I said,literally, it's like a bird

(48:15):
flying into a window.
It's just like, nobody knowswhat to do or say.
And it literally, when I saidlike our brain, our brain makes
things up.
So if you've never experiencedit and you've never seen a dead
baby, your brain is going tomake it horrific.
It's going to make it thisterrible, gross thing.

(48:36):
scary thing.
So that's what most people whohaven't experienced it and say
these shitty things see in theirbrain.
They don't know.
The unknown is the worst.
It is the worst.
And when you were kind oftalking about the family that
you took care of and was like, Idon't want to see him or her
ever, ever, ever again.
Not at all.

(48:57):
Never.
Something you can do in thatmoment as well is ask them if
you would like if they wouldlike you to describe the baby to
them, like how beautiful theyare, like their sweet little
face.
And to think a lot of familieswill Google, right?

(49:17):
20 week old baby dies, images,Google.
And there's so many things thatmay not even be right or true at
all.
Yeah.
That's just another way we cantry to get them to, realize that
it's most of the time, it'sbetter than what we're thinking.

(49:40):
Oh,

SPEAKER_02 (49:41):
I was so nervous.
So I reached out, this was likethe internet was like newish
when I started practicing.
So I mean, yeah, like it wasn'twhat it is now.
So I had to do phone, phoneexperience doulas and be like,
okay, so I'm going in because myclients flew to New York,
terminated, then had to fly backto Toronto.
And so I knew I had like, Eighthours.

(50:05):
And so I was like, I'm going toutilize that eight hours.
And I was shocked that threepeople said the same thing.
They were like, don't open thebaby's eyes.
The parents sometimes want tosee what color the eyes are.
But like, that could be...
not what they're expecting,especially if there's not, it's
not developed.
It's going to maybe just be asocket, like all those things.

(50:25):
I was so fucking scared aboutthe eyes, but at the same time,
like really wanted to open theeyelids up.
Like Nana became obsessed withit.
I did not open the eyelidsbecause I already thought I was
violating the parents by washingand dressing and rocking their
baby and like humming to her inthe bathroom alone.
Um, but I was like, that's theonly thing you guys all have to

(50:49):
tell me.
You experienced doulas.
Like you offered nothing elseexcept sometimes parents really
want to know the, their, thewhatever color eyes don't let
them open the eyelids.
And I was like,

SPEAKER_01 (51:00):
that's not even a proper indication because baby
eye color changes

SPEAKER_02 (51:04):
all of those things.
But I was like, That feels likenot a useful piece of advice
when like a baby doula is like,so what do I do here for this
loss?
And didn't scaffold me with thethings that we need to know,
which is on one of our mistakes,things like the parents are
going to have to have a plan fortheir baby's body, which nobody

(51:27):
told me that.
They just said, don't open theeyes.
So then I wasn't prepared toprepare my clients.

UNKNOWN (51:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:34):
To say, like, we should probably call the
synagogue.
And I didn't know any of thesethings.
And so that's one of themistakes, y'all.
It's like, please make sure youknow what's going to happen.
Like, what the next steps areafter.
Do they need to call people?
Are there fees associated?

(51:54):
You know, do they have somebodythat comes to take photos?
Do they have the cots?
Like, all of these things.
moving parts that you don't knowwhat you don't know, obviously.
And I didn't know a lot.
And these experienced doulas didnot do me a solid there on what
they did pass on.

SPEAKER_01 (52:15):
Nothing.
I've never, you know, I had thaturge to with Evelyn, right?
Because her eyes were closed,obviously.
But I was like, nope, can't doit.
Can't do it.
Like, I just couldn't physicallybring myself to do that.
I was scared.
Right.
But yeah, this is why this is soimportant.
This is why I teach and traindoulas in doing this stuff

(52:37):
because you need to know what toask.
You need to know the questionsthat you need to, like, you need
to know this stuff because ifthe hospital is a shitty
hospital and they don't havelike a palliative care director
or a perinatal bereavementprogram, most of the time these
nurses are winging it and doingthe best that they can.

(52:58):
Um, And I just, like I wastelling Bianca, like I just got
a call on Friday saying like,oh, you know, this hospital told
this mom that she needs to gether baby within this 24 hour
timeframe.
And she has to come up with thismoney because the funeral parlor

(53:19):
won't pick them up.
Like what?
Like, is this our, this is ourreal fucking society here.
Like this is USA over here.
Yeah.
Like the best country in theworld.
And we can't even properly takecare of a dead baby or support a
family.
Like it's crazy.
It's so mind blowing.

SPEAKER_02 (53:41):
I mean, all everything to do with loss that
we do in our society is, I mean,Canada is not much better.
I mean, now we're significantlybetter than America, but you
know, it's still pretty shitaround all of it.
Yeah.
So, I mean, we have gone througha lot of these what not to do.
We're going to put them in anice little PDF for you so that

(54:03):
you can download that.
And we'll post that under theepisode.
Because there's so many thingsthat we don't want you to do,
Valin and I...
together, have put together alike, what do you do?
And so we have, we were callingit the 911 kit because you're

(54:25):
going to have, these are urgentsituations when your client
calls you and says they can'tfind a heartbeat.
You know, they're having amiscarriage.
And sometimes we don't know thatwe're going to be dealing with a
loss situation because, youknow, like the story you were
just telling that it happenedrecently.
While they were in labor thatthey their baby died.

(54:47):
So we want you to be ready withwhat you should do.
So we've done a step by step kitof like, here's what you need to
do.
Here's the next thing.
Here's the next thing.
And we take you from minute one.
all the way to past the firstyear.
And we've got the urgent sectionfor you.

(55:08):
So if you are finding yourselfin a loss situation, you just
like jump to that urgent sectionand go through it.
And then when you have time, gothrough all the other parts of
the kit that we've made you.
And Valin, oh man, you are sogood at this.
It's just like all thisbeautiful content of supporting
kids families through theirlosses.

(55:29):
And I'm just so happy that wegot to collaborate on this
project together because you'reso good.
It's been so fun.

SPEAKER_01 (55:36):
I know it's the worst topic.
It's, it sucks.
Like, but yes, I love it.
I'm, I'm very good at it.
I'll just toot my own horn.
I just, it came naturally to meafter Evelyn died.
Like I was just like, okay, it'sjust like unlocked something in
me that I've always been acaretaker though.
Like Do you do you follow humandesign?

(55:56):
Do you like love?
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm a manifestinggenerator.
So like my whole life revolvesaround creating and supporting
and helping others and likefollowing my gut, like trusting
myself.
And so that's what we've done.
Like, we took a reallybeautiful, like, I don't know.

(56:17):
We just created a really,really, really beautiful support
packet and it's perfect.
Um, because a lot of us don'thave time necessarily to take
another training.
So this is like a really, Iwould say very detailed, very
layered, you know, in depth, um,I don't know, shortcut, like

(56:41):
that way you get, It gives youthat urgent, that urgent piece.
Bianca was telling you, like ifyou're immediately going through
this loss and then once you'reout of that, you can go through
the rest where we walk youthrough the other stuff that is
all part of it.
And especially taking care ofyourself.
We want to make sure that youare, that was one of the other
mistakes is like forgettingabout you, forgetting about

(57:03):
realizing that you've gonethrough this with them.
And it is going to affect you.
I think doulas are really goodat like, doing what they need to
do in the moment, not, you know,really feeling it or taking it
in themselves right away andjust throwing themselves into
supporting our families.

(57:25):
But when you get home and it'sall over you, it's everywhere
and you don't know how it'sactually going to affect you
within the next few weeks andmonths.
Yeah.
So we have, it's everything.
We teach you how to take care ofyourself.
Yeah, it's amazing.

(57:45):
That's a

SPEAKER_02 (57:46):
really, really good kit.
And we just we so recommend thatall doulas have this kit in
their hands, like consider ityour insurance policy, because
you might not be specificallydoing intentional loss work.
But, you know, these thingshappen.
And both Fallon and I hadstories where we did not intend

(58:06):
to be supporting a loss and weended up in that position.
So, you know, this kit is key,like just having it ready.
And then if folks are interestedin having a bereavement business
specifically, Valen has acertification for that.
So you can go over and if you'relike, I would like to build my
business around supporting lostfamilies, that's a separate

(58:28):
thing.
And I highly recommend go getyour certification with Valen
and, you know, build thesebereavement businesses because
we definitely need more peoplemore folks supporting loss.
And for anybody else, if you'redoing fertility doula work,
you're doing birth doula work,you're doing postpartum doula
work, and you did not intend tosupport loss, this is where the

(58:50):
kit is going to come in.
And it's kind of your like 911crisis package.
And we hope you never have touse it.
Our dream is that you never,ever need to.
And we've kept it wildlyaffordable.
Yeah.
So that it can be a tool thatyou have alongside your TENS
machine or alongside your pelvisor like all the other things,

(59:12):
your knitted knocker and yourloss kit that's ready for you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I liked collaborating with you,Valen.
You're a good time.
I know.
We'll have to do it again.
Hopefully

SPEAKER_01 (59:27):
a happier subject, but yeah.

UNKNOWN (59:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (59:31):
so everybody our dear listeners thanks for going
on this journey with us we willhave the um post together so you
can see the mistakes not to makewe're gonna have that link there
for that kit highly recommendyou grab yours um it's under
fifty dollars and have that inyour you know your your packages

(59:52):
that you're ready because wehave really great materials you
can leave with families, so thatthey have that care, all of
these PDFs, you could share themwith with your clients, your
lost clients, there'schecklists, there's scripts,
there's swipe copy, like wewanted to make it really easy
for you.
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:10):
was

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:10):
gonna say,

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:11):
yeah, the scripts, I think are the best part.
Because that's the that's thehardest thing like that.
If you if you really think aboutthis podcast is like knowing
what to say, knowing how toconvey that, what words to use,
like, We give you literally allthe words that you possibly
could need to support them, totext them, to call them.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:32):
Yeah, it's everything you need.
We made it real, real simple.
And then tons of resources forfamilies, book lists for you,
self-care scripts, journalingprompts.
Man, this is a great kit.
I know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:50):
I know.
I'm so excited about it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:52):
um and it's brand new this week so you can grab
yours um we've got amazingfeedback from all the wonderful
doulas um thank you to ourtesters who went through and
gave us such great feedback wecouldn't do that without um
really great community supportfor this kit and this project um
so hat tip to all of you uhagain all of the information for

(01:01:14):
it will be in your show notesvalen thanks so much for hanging
out on the hot and brave podcastit was really great to have you
Thank you so much for having me.
This was so much fun.
All right, everyone.
We'll see you in the nextepisode.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:32):
Want to keep hanging out?
We have created a free mindsetmini course to help change
makers and birth workers findbliss in their business.
You're not in this alone.
Let's build together.
Head to www.babomia.com slashVIB to grab your space and a
free retreat.
Once again, go towww.babomia.com slash VIB to

(01:01:58):
grab your spot.
We will see you next time on theHot and Brave Podcast.
podcast.

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S4 E11 - 10 Things NOT To Do With Loss Families with Vallen Webb

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S4 E11 - 10 Things NOT To Do With Loss Families with Vallen Webb