S5 E01 - Parenting, Mental Health & the Thief of Joy: A No-BS Chat with Nikki Steel Osborne - Hot+Brave

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with
Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia,where you will hear brave
stories, hot topics and truthbombs that will either light
fire to your rage or be the balmyou need for your soul.

SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Hot and
Brave podcast.
We are back with season five.
I still can't believe we've donefour seasons and we're into our
fourth year here.
So we are at the pre-semester, Idon't know, I guess pre-semester
sprint, the behind the scenes.
We're getting ready for our MSP,which is our full spectrum doula

(00:40):
training.
And we have so many newadditions to the course.
I've been chatting and planningand getting everything ready and
i'm really excited there's newfaces there's new lectures and
there's way more fun um there'sstill room in the program and we
have payment plans so that youcan grab your seat with ease um

(01:01):
if you use the code shirt likelike t-shirt but just shirt
s-h-i-r-t um you get a hugediscount and a free doula
t-shirt okay um so i mean Icould catch up.
There's a lot to catch upbecause we've had a couple of
months since our last episode,but I'll like pepper it in only
because this episode interviewis a little bit longer.
So I'll try to kind of catch youup on what's happening with life

(01:24):
and Babel Mia and stuff over thenext few episodes.
But I have been on bereavementleave for the last several weeks
after losing my younger brother,Elliot.
I shared a bit about this in mynewsletter and I've gotten lots
of love and I'm really gratefulto you all.
I'm so grateful.
I'm grateful to Kelly.
I'm giving like a special shoutout to Kelly because she's been

(01:46):
juggling so much with Babelmia.
And then, you know, all myfriends behind the scenes who
check in with me regularly.
I'm really grateful.
And to people who have come andhelped me at home here and, you
know, all of that.
Also, Kessia, who's ourincredible peer mentor, she
checks in on me every coupledays with these lovely voice
memos.
And I just...

(02:07):
Oh man, I'm really just oozingwith gratitude because it's been
really hard and I've been reallystruggling.
It's like struggling so much.
Again, I don't want to get intoit in the podcast, but you can
check that out in thenewsletter.
But cycle breaking is hard and,you know, Cole's notes being
uninvited to my brother'sfuneral.
due to my no contact with mymom.

(02:29):
And grief hit my body so hard,like in the heaviest of ways,
like literal pain, disc injury,like stuff that has never
happened to me beforeimmediately happened, which was
disappointing because I have acompetition for my powerlifting
and I can barely walk, let alonelift, which sucks.

(02:51):
So it's been really wild.
And I just keep being like, allright, grief, I see you.
So with this dip and, you know,mental health from, you know, my
brother's death, I've beenreally quiet and still.
And I've actually been creatingart, like lots and lots and lots
of it.
I go into my sewing and mycrafting room and just I'm there

(03:13):
as quiet.
much as I've had.
Everything I do, I'm like, afteryou can go back and make more
art.
And I found it really healingand really helpful.
So I thought talking aboutmental health would be a good
season opener.
But I wanted a lightness to thetalk because I can't really do
heavy topic, heavy discussionstyle.

(03:33):
So I reached out across theocean to Nikki Steele Osborne,
And man, she's amazing.
You'll all love her Scottishaccent.
She married an American, so sheknows she's got kind of the best
of all worlds, I suppose.
She also has a son, which was asignificant jumping off you

(03:58):
know, her catalyst or jumpingoff point for why she's doing
the work that she's doing.
But she's a coach, a speaker,course creator.
And, you know, she shares thisroller coaster of highs and
lows.
She's lived all over the world,which is amazing.
bonkers.
And she talks about, you know,all these kind of like
relocations and the culture thatshe's lived within.

(04:19):
She talks a lot about her ownpostpartum depression journey.
We talked about running our ownbusinesses.
Yeah, so much.
She's, she's just incredible.
I'm so grateful that she tookthe time to hang out with us
and, and give us some, you know,some context as well as what we
can do, what we can do aspractitioners to support our

(04:41):
clients and what we can do asparents.
Oh, I do want to put in a littlewarning.
If you have little ears around,maybe pop in some headphones as
we cuss like a lot in thisepisode.
Also check out the show notesfor ways to connect with Nikki.
She is a gem.
She has a really incredibledigital resource called Stepping

(05:03):
Into Parenthood.
Which, you know, really all youneed is internet access to get
your hands on that.
It's a must have.
So without further ado, here isour talk from last week.
Hi Nikki, welcome to thepodcast.
We're so happy to have you.
Thank you for having me.
It's lovely to meet you face

SPEAKER_03 (05:23):
to

SPEAKER_01 (05:24):
face now.
Yes.
Um...
So we're going to cover a fewdifferent areas, like really
talking about mental health.
But you know, there's, there's alot of like branches that
intersect that mental healthconversation.
But let's first start with, youknow, why did you get into this
work?

SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
Okay, so I think my training to becoming a coach was
that I was a hairdresser andpeople would put their bum in
that seat and you would just, itwould all come out.
So I think that was my training.
But I really started this afterhaving my son in 2017 and I had

(06:00):
experienced postpartumdepression and anxiety.
That wasn't my first rodeo.
Like a lot of people, I'd hadepisodes throughout my adult
life of feelings of depressionand anxiety, took medication,
didn't change anything else, youknow, and expected wonderful
things to happen.

SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
The magic pill.

SPEAKER_03 (06:22):
Right?
But really, I mean, I honestlybelieve that the answer to what
was missing for me was that Iwasn't a mum yet.
So when I got pregnant, I was 40when I got pregnant, and I was
like...
We're winning people, this isit.
So I actually didn't anticipatefeeling like I did for those

(06:42):
first 18 months.
And when I finally got somesupport and I started to turn
that corner, I just felt that ithad to be for something, you
know, for me to walk away fromit and go back to here just
didn't click anymore.
like if I've felt these thingsand I've experienced it and I'm

(07:05):
quite a big character you knowI'm not scared to open my mouth
right and when we use thatnarrative just reach out and I'm
like it's bullshit because youdon't you know it's not as
simple as that so I decided thatI want you to do something with
it so I retrained um and now I'mcoaching and speaking and i have

(07:28):
a digital resource for peoplewho can't just reach out who
don't want to talk i wanted tohave something that they could
you know dig into with that bitof peace and quiet and not
feeling exposed or whatever thereasons are you know that
they're not in that space yetthey don't want to talk about it

(07:48):
i want you to give themsomething as well so i created a
digital good old technologyhelps me out there It doesn't
happen very often.

SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
Yeah, seriously.
So there's an area that Irealized I never really talked
about with any of the guestswhen we talk about mental health
is I'd love if you feelcomfortable, obviously, like to
comfort.
I'd love to talk about thatexperience of like you having a

(08:21):
baby and just everybodylistening anxiety and depression
can show up in your pregnancytoo.
So we're going to just talkabout perinatal mood disorders,
which is the whole gamut, aswell as when we're going through
that trying to conceive journey.
So like the whole time ourreproductive journey, it can
rear its very uncomfortablehead.
But let's talk about the pointfrom you having your son to

(08:48):
Getting your diagnosis.
And what was it like?
How were people interacting withyou?
How did you feel?
Who actually flagged that itcould be depression or anxiety?
Because that's actually, Ithink, where the meat of the
conversation should happen.
Because I know I had undiagnosedfor two years.
And I kept thinking, fuck youguys.

(09:10):
I had a big community.
How did nobody flag depression?

SPEAKER_03 (09:15):
that

SPEAKER_01 (09:16):
I could have been and like the flags weren't
little white or pink they werelike red like like I asked
multiple people where, what do Ido when I can't parent anymore?
Like where do people give awaytheir children?
Like who can take this baby?
Like that is a giant red flag.
And so I would love to hear yourperspective.

(09:37):
And then some of the peopleyou're talking to, because I
feel like it's really up to thecommunity around them, whether
they're partnered, theirsiblings, their friends, their
neighbors, um, Anyway, that wasa long intro to give you the
question, but take it away.
No, but

SPEAKER_03 (09:51):
it's really interesting because I think my
breaking point, or the pivotalpoint when it was like, okay,
something has to happen here,was me completely losing my shit
with my husband.
I think I knew.
Now looking back, and if I wasbeing really honest with myself,
I knew that something wasn'tright.

(10:15):
But I was so...
fucking determined to get pastit, that I wasn't acknowledging
it.
So by not acknowledging it tomyself, I wasn't really
acknowledging it to others.
Now, the other part of this isthat we at that time lived in
Montenegro.
So I went back to Scotland todeliver my son.

(10:38):
Then, you know, so it was toughin the beginning, but the
thinking was once I get back inmy own house, in my own
environment, it'll settle down,it'll be okay.
And it wasn't.
But it wasn't linear, it wasn'tconsistent.
It is very much as a rollercoaster.
So you have the times whereyou're like, okay, we're good,

(11:00):
we're doing okay.
And then that dark cloud wouldkick in again.
And I do think that a lot ofmental health, whether it's
maternal mental health, there'sa lot of similarities in how
these things present.
But I think maternal mentalhealth can be especially tricky
because this is when you'resupposed to be happy.
You've just had this new child.

(11:23):
And I did.
I had all those things.
And of course, I was going onDr.
Google, which is always abrilliant idea.
Terrifying the shit out ofyourself.
Dr.
Google.
And a lot of what I kept seeingwas this postpartum depression
or anxiety disorder.

(11:43):
you perhaps don't connect withyour baby or you don't feel
you're bonding with your babyand I was like well I don't have
that then because that wasn'thow I felt now I can verbalize
it but what was happening wasthat I had such an overwhelming
love for this little boy that Iwas absolutely terrified I was

(12:06):
going to fuck her

SPEAKER_04 (12:08):
yeah

SPEAKER_03 (12:08):
wasn't about the baby it wasn't about him it was
about me So, you know, when Iwould talk to my mum or my
friends like this on Zoom, I wasvery much masking how bad it
was.
Or maybe it was just a good daywhen I spoke to them, so they
weren't always catching thosered flags.
But for my husband, that nightin the kitchen, I remember

(12:33):
screaming at him and saying, ifthis was you, I would have
dragged you to the doctorfucking ages ago.

UNKNOWN (12:41):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 (12:42):
because, you know, but it's because you're looking
for almost like a blame thing aswell.
And, you know, I just needed tofeel better.
And he was the closest person tome.
And I think he just didn't knowwhat to do.
You know, I think he, and he wasseeing the good parts too.
So when I would say, do youthink I need help?

(13:03):
He'd be like, no, you've beenbetter.
You're doing okay.
You know?
So, not dismissing it notbecause he didn't want me to get
help but I don't think he reallydid see it and because what goes
on in our minds doesn't alwayscome out of our mouths right
what goes on in our minds can beterrifying and if we're not
really in that somehowcommunicating that then people

(13:25):
don't always know and that's whyit's so terrifying you know and
that's why we need to normalizetalking about it so I am always
appreciative of people likeyourself that are using your
platform and going can we havethis conversation You know, it's
not about scaremongering.
It's not about sugarcoating.
It's just saying, look, theseare the realities.

(13:46):
And how can we support people tojust navigate and come through
it?
You know, hopefully unscathed.

SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting you saythe realities because.
Some of the things that I wouldlove to tear down is what we
have normalized about newparents and motherhood.
And so I really like talkingabout the relationship of
motherhood and the work ofmotherhood.
And we never really get to dothe relationship where we're
just like staring at our babyand we've had like a lovely day

(14:18):
bonding with our baby becausewe're just bogged down in the
work part.
And because we're in that, Ifeel like so much...
precarious mental health hasbeen normalized as just deep
exhaustion this is just being anew parent and um because we
expect the work of motherhood tocontinue no matter what without

(14:40):
a division of labor you knowamong the among the sexes and um
you know we've just the roleshave been like locked in as such
a permanent thing so i mean i'dbe curious to hear your thoughts
around um You used the thief ofjoy in one of your blogs when I
was reading about your work,which I love.

(15:01):
I mean, it's obviously theRoosevelt quote talking about
comparison.
But I use thief of joy like allover Babelmia.
And there's, I feel like a lotof areas, thieves of joy in new
parenthood, which is kind oflike masking precarious mental
health.
And I wanted to hear yourthoughts about that.

SPEAKER_03 (15:22):
And it goes both ways.
You know, when I talk aboutthose comparisons, I feel like
social media and, you know,where we are in this digital age
is like a double-edged sword.
We have resources at ourfingertips now.
We have information.
We have statistics.
We have all of that stuff there.

(15:44):
Unfortunately, what we're mostinfluenced by are social media
platforms.
Yeah.
And when I talk aboutcomparison, I don't just mean
the ones where you see thewholesome parent, you know,
they're in matching outfits andthey're cooking from scratch and
all that, you know, everything'spristine around the house.

(16:05):
And that is one aspect that canbe daunting for some people.
I think there's the other sideof it as well, which I actually
find really dangerous.
And these are the accounts that,where people are, and maybe this
is just my perspective, I feellike I'm quite good at reading

(16:25):
between the lines.
And when I look at theseaccounts, I'm a business.
I know that they're businessestoo.
And when I'm seeing things whereit's a very obviously staged
crying session into their phoneto then post and talk about how
hard parenting is, There areones where I'm like, that's

(16:46):
genuine.
They're talking, they getemotional and it's a gradual and
you go, okay, they've got upsetand they're sharing that so that
we can, you know, all engagewith each other.
But some are doing it forclicks.
Some are doing it because whenyou pick up on people's pain
points and try and buy into thatfear and that pain point, that's
a business strategy.

SPEAKER_01 (17:07):
Yeah, it's gross.
Don't get me started.
And it pisses

SPEAKER_03 (17:09):
me off.
Don't get me started, Nikki.
Okay, well, I'm glad that you'rethe same because...
You know, I've had, I rememberone time talking about this.
I think we're quite similar.
We're quite opinionated andwe've got shit to say and we're
going to say it.
And the people that love us willtake to that.
And the ones that don't, well,they're not going to anyway.

(17:30):
We're not here to win people,right?
But I remember talking aboutsome of these things.
And one of the things that Ialso spoke about was the mummy
wine culture.
oh you're just lighting up myelevator Nikki anything else
anything

SPEAKER_01 (17:45):
else you want to talk

SPEAKER_03 (17:46):
about because you just you know that promote and
getting the the way now you knowafter a day of pain and I'm like
are you fucking serious it'slike the worst thing you can do
now this isn't and I was told Iwas judging and I'm not judging
if you are someone you know oneof my best friends in the world

(18:06):
Absolute party animal, alwayshas been, always will be.
She's got two kids.
She's never dropped a ball.
She's always the last at theparty.
But you know what?
She's happy.
She doesn't have any mentalhealth challenges.
She's not up against anything.
So I'm not judging.
If you can cope, crack on.
But for some of us, myselfincluded, I stopped drinking two

(18:28):
years ago because I had to callmyself out on my own bullshit.
It wasn't sustainable.
It made me feel bad.
I would get violently sick I wasrubbish at it anyway I wasn't a
good drinker but mostimportantly was that I wanted my
clarity and my energy for my sonyou know I wanted to feel well

(18:49):
and I knew that I wascontributing to my own mental
health challenges so you knowwhen I'm poking up but sometimes
we just have to be really honestabout some of these things so
when they're promoting that youknow oh don't be judgy just let
them have a glass of wine ifyou're all right then fine but

(19:09):
if that's actually contributingto the space you're in please
don't you know

SPEAKER_02 (19:13):
yeah

SPEAKER_03 (19:14):
well

SPEAKER_01 (19:14):
and I don't think it's judging like what I speak
out against alcohol all the timeum alcohol culture which I know
some of my friends like oh is itokay if I drink and I'm like you
can drink around me I choose tohave no alcohol in my life um I
haven't for almost a decade andum it's, we can speak out
against mommy wine culturebecause that's a fucked up

(19:37):
culture.
That's like the wine o'clocksomewhere.
This is mommy's happy juice,like all of these things.
And it would be fine if momswere thriving, but the rate of
mental health, mental healthissues is staggering.
Death by suicide is the leadingcause of death for new moms.
So like, as long as thesestatistics are there, then

(19:59):
alcohol is not serving us as adepressant.
you know we need love we needcare we need safety we need
sleep we need you know to be outof food deserts we need you know
all of these things we needbetter health care for those
accessing traditional you knowchannels for that like we need
therapy there's so many thingswe need and it is not alcohol

SPEAKER_03 (20:22):
right that's another thing when you said there about
like health care that'ssomething else that I wish would
marry more because I feel thatthere's also you know the
medical and clinical field arevery quick to shut down people
like myself because I'm just acoach and we don't know anything
and then you've got the holisticside where I feel they can also

(20:45):
do that where they go it's justbig pharma they just want your
money and I'm like look guyscould we all sit together and
have a chat because actually Ifeel like the holistic side we
are filling a cavernous gapbetween the people that need
support and the healthcaresystems because wherever you are
the healthcare systems arestruggling you know and that is

(21:07):
why we unfortunately are stillseeing so many suicides you know
in the UK the statistic forpostpartum depression is like
one in five it's not it's waymore than that because there are
so many people who are like wesaid earlier, it goes
undiagnosed or, you know,they're not getting that help

(21:28):
and support for it.
So that's another, you know, thehealthcare system and people
like myself.
And yes, I know that in anyindustry, there are charlatans,
there are people that are justthere to make a quick buck.
But there's also some of us outhere that are fighting for
something that's really, reallyimportant.
You know, I could go back toyou, Jess, in a minute, make a

(21:49):
fortune if that's what I wantyou to do.
but that's not where I am, youknow, because I feel like this
is a space that really needspeople like you and I that are
going to open our mouths andshout it a wee bit louder for
them up the back.

SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
Yeah.
And I also want to hold spaceand just, I always, when we have
these conversations, want tohighlight the fear of reporting
mental health concerns withequity-seeking folks because
they're already so highlypoliced with their parenting.
There's also a barrier forpeople in custody groups custody
battles or going through thecourt system that also don't

(22:24):
disclose mental health crises.
I know this from livedexperience as well as having
these conversations for almost20 years now.
And so there's groups thatactually cannot put on their
paperwork.
And I know at around year twowith my GP, when he wanted to
have that conversation with me,I literally said, you cannot

(22:46):
document that I'm talking aboutmy mental health right now
because I knew you know i was ina 12-year custody battle um
spoiler alert

SPEAKER_03 (22:55):
and like you say to have that deterrent because of
that fear and that's why we doneed to have access for people
where they do feel it's a safespace they can still get the
support without it being astatistic

SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
right yeah Yeah, so I think you're right that that
number is the one in five.
It's just, it's not possible,especially now that the new
statistics, like the latest waveof research post COVID.
Oh man, I wanted to have that atmy fingertips.
I don't.
I'm listening to a really greatnew book about anxiety.
It just came out last month.
And yeah.

(23:33):
It's something in the US, like,I don't know, I'm going to throw
it out.
Somebody fact check this for me,but something like 84% of teens
are reporting anxiety anddepression.
So it's not possible that wehave our youth having this
experience and not having thatsimilar statistic reflected
through the next wave of, youknow, child rearing folks,

(23:54):
especially because the risk ofrunning into anxiety or
depression is environmental,it's hormonal, it's genetic,
like we've got a lot of you knowa lot of there's more entry
points and risk for folks intheir reproductive journeys so
you know which would blow thatone in five statistic out of the

(24:15):
water

SPEAKER_03 (24:16):
and I do you know the other side of that I guess
the silver lining is that I do Ireally believe that we are the
kind of generation that willhopefully help this state that
we're in In the sense thatcultural, you know, when we look

(24:37):
at generational, you know, Ifeel like we're that middle
generation because ourgrandparents and some of our
parents, you know, they did itwithout the internet, right?
And now we've got it.
And our children, you know, myson's seven, so it's always been
there.
Like, trying to tell him what itwas like when we were young and

(24:57):
when it first came out is, youfeel like a dinosaur.
But what I mean is that we arealmost in a state of fear as
well for our children because ofthis.
But I feel like we're the onesthat can actually pave the way,
you know, and...
we're having more conversationsabout mental health.

(25:19):
You know, we're having moreconversations about the roles
that we all play within afamily.
And, you know, that, especiallyfor the guys, I'm seeing more
and more things come up for menwhere they can go and talk about
their mental health.
And, you know, but I mean, myfather's generation was, talk
about stuff like that.

(25:39):
I feel like we're getting there.
We're not there yet, but we'regetting there in a lot of
regards.
So yeah, we need people to keepfighting that fight.

SPEAKER_01 (25:49):
Yeah.
You've lived all over the worldwith your family.
Well, like that side of theworld.
But your husband's from my sideof the world.
Yeah, he's from Buffalo, NewYork.

SPEAKER_03 (25:58):
We met in Jakarta.
We met in Indonesia.

SPEAKER_01 (26:01):
That's wild.
That's wild.
So...
I mean, you've been aroundparents in different cultures.
What are some of the, like, areyou noticing the same, I mean,
it's obviously gonna land as thesame bullshit, but like the
moving parts around theconversation of families and

(26:21):
mental health, you know, whatare some of the comparisons
from, you know, Southeast Asia,the MENA region, Western Europe?

SPEAKER_03 (26:28):
I mean, you know, when I was in Indonesia, I was
drunk most of the time.
That was in my pre days.
Me too.
I had a business there.
I had a salon.
So I was working, you know, theIndonesians though, you know,
they are very family orientatedwhere they still tend to live

(26:49):
together, you know, thegrandparents, parents, and, you
know, when they get married,they still live together.
So there's, there's somethingabout community and the love and
connection.
You know, I base a lot of what Ido on the, the concept that we
have six human needs.
And that love and connection isone of the human needs that I
believe is impacted by the waywe live now.

(27:10):
And we don't have that samevillage.
We don't, you know, and we livein different parts of the world.
We just don't have the same, youknow, person to person support.
So in Indonesia, I did, I lovedthat they, you know, I'll live
to, well, I don't know, I'msaying I loved it.
Maybe if I had to live with allmy family, I'd be saying
different.
I'm sure they would too, ifthey're listening.

(27:33):
Montenegro, that's when I was,you know, we were trying to get
pregnant.
So it was like three years oftrying.
And one of the things that Icame across there was that when
they have a baby, they are leftfor 40 days.
Mm-hmm.
without visitors, without, sothat they get, and there was

(27:54):
something I thought was quitelovely about that as well, that
they get that time because ourculture is as soon as that
baby's out of there, everyone'sin hospital and there's balloons
and, you know, and you go onthis high, but then when that
all calms down and you're left,you're like, oh shit.
So don't do that other wayaround where you get to navigate

(28:17):
being this new parent and, Firstand then introducing everyone.
So I did love that.
Then when I started this, thiswas, you know, this business for
me was when we were in Dubai.
This is when I studied and, youknow, my son went to nursery.
So then I had time to study andI grew from there.

(28:39):
And I feel like now I can walkinto a room and sit with some
new parents and I can tell youwho's struggling.
You know, a sixth sense.
I don't know.
But I also find that there, it'sthis masking thing that I was
talking about.
And especially somewhere, youknow, Dubai is considered
glamorous and affluent.

(28:59):
And there are a lot of peoplewho are living a lifestyle that
they're trying to maintain.
So then it can become difficultto say, actually, this is not
really the lifestyle that I'mliving.
This is tough.
there's a lot of support there.
You find that in Indonesia, it'sthe same.
You know, they employ people tohelp in the house or nannies to

(29:22):
help with the children.
Dubai, that's very normalised aswell.
There's a lot of that.
I never did that because Imicromanaged too much.

UNKNOWN (29:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (29:31):
so so yeah like you know so Montenegro was where I
learned about this 40 day thingthat I loved and Dubai is where
I was learning about moreparents and realizing how many
of us really have had theseexperiences you know I always
remember I was talking at anevent and it was I was going

(29:54):
around tables it was in a coffeeshop environment and I was
talking to one group of women.
I think there was four or fiveof them.
And as I was talking, there wasone who kept looking at me, then
looking at her friend.
So I knew that whatever I wastalking about, it was hitting
somewhere for her.
And when I said, like I did toyou earlier, that I didn't feel

(30:18):
like I wasn't bonding with myson, I just felt I loved him so
much, I was so scared, and sheburst into tears.

SPEAKER_04 (30:26):
I

SPEAKER_03 (30:27):
knew so then you know I sat with her and she said
you know I keep saying this tomy husband and it's not that I'm
not bonding you know and it wasthat realisation that yeah I'm
doing something that's importantbecause it's not just it wasn't
just me and I knew it wasn'tjust me but in that moment you
feel so isolated you can'timagine that anyone else would

(30:51):
ever understand how you'refeeling until we start doing
this.
And I think that this ispreparation.
I think when we go to anantenatal class and they show
you how to give the baby a bathand how to change a nappy or a
diaper, it's like, guys, youneed to do better.
We need a little bit more thanthat.

(31:12):
You figure that shit out.
Being a parent, it's notacademically challenging.
It's mentally and emotionallychallenging.
That's the, we need these tools.
Well,

SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
and I think how you were talking about, like you are
bonding with your baby, but, andyet.
that we have to like, again,the, the roles that we have, I
feel like we have to keep likeparsing apart the conversation
of you can actually not likemotherhood or parenthood and
love your child and, and havethat be something because like

(31:47):
parenthood sucks.
It's, it's up in the night, it'swashing dishes, it's filling out
forms.
It's like that, that it's notfun.
And we, I mean, and we call thatparenthood and it's really just
like, They're tasks, it's work.
And so I remember when I was, Imean, I had my daughter younger

(32:08):
than I expected.
So I was 26.
And, and they like in mycommunity to prevent mental
health concerns happening, theylike put everybody who had their
babies in the same month in agroup, like these free meetups.
So they were like, you all hadyour babies in August, you
should go over here and talk.
And yeah, your friends now asyou know, and I remember at one

(32:30):
of the I found the women likethey just weren't my people.
And we just happened to live inthe same neighborhood and happen
to have our babies around thesame time that's the only cross
section yeah and so I rememberjust like bouncing feeling so
bad like so bad and I thoughtlike well we're in the same boat

(32:52):
and I was like hey does anyoneelse like hate this like hate
this and the looks on theirfaces it was like I said I hate
gray and I didn't I said hatethis and because we were I don't
know six weeks postpartum I hadno support I had an unsafe
partner I was so under resourcedlike you know and had postpartum

(33:18):
depression that nobody nobodynoticed and like The look on
their faces though was soisolating for me.
And I was like, I know I'm agood mom.
Like I take this so fuckingseriously.
Like I love this baby and I hateeverything else.
So then I like, sometimes I waslike, do I hate my baby?
Like, am I actually a terribleparent?

(33:39):
And it took

SPEAKER_03 (33:46):
having- does start blurring the lines and it's like
is it this like yeah yeah andyou know it's sad when I started
studying that was when I feltlike a light went on and what I
now understand is because when Iwas being mum I wasn't studying

(34:08):
I wasn't working anymore so Iwasn't getting significance
because I wasn't getting apaycheck and I wasn't using my
brain I wasn't even listening tomusic that I liked anymore.
I was playing stuff that maybewould be suitable for Archie.
When he used to nap, I used toplay Go Go Penguin.
That was the closest I got toplaying music that I also

(34:31):
enjoyed.
And now what I realise is that Iwas impacting my own growth.
I was impacting my ownsignificance.
And just that kind of need to...
be all to everyone and almostplaying that martyr card you

(34:51):
know to go and do something formyself meant that I would feel
that extreme guilt and that Iwas a shit mum like it was all
bullshit I'm a brilliant mum youknow but our minds lie to us and
that is why this space is youknow is so vulnerable

SPEAKER_01 (35:09):
well it's a complete loss of identity and we're
supposed to be okay with it sonot only do we have like a new
sleep schedule which isinterrupted which is fucks with
anybody's mental health likesleep is a pillar of our
survival and so we have thislike there's just so much change
and we're supposed to fall inlove with the loss of identity
that we were like dancers andwriters and activists and social

(35:32):
butterflies and party girls andlike you know all these things
and now we're supposed to justbe mum and I remember being like
I vocalized, like Gray waspretty young when I was like, I
actually don't think mom is likein my top 10 most interesting
things about me.
And so when, when I would talkto people and like, even when I
was dating again, like after Igot divorced and I was like out,

(35:57):
people like on our third datewould be like, wait, you have a
kid?
And I was like, yeah, it's not asecret.
I just, there's so much moreinteresting stuff about me than
this.
Yeah.
then this role of motherhoodgray, really important identity
of mother.
No, like it's kind of just likea biological thing that happened
to me.
And so, um, I think like there'sso much collapse in all of this

(36:21):
and, and I, I, you know, when Iwork with my clients in the
postpartum, cause I get them inthere like brand new postpartum
as a, as a birth doula.
Um, like I love having theconversations to set the stage
that it's okay that they don'tlike the work of motherhood it's
okay that they miss their oldlife it's okay that they're like

(36:42):
maybe have regrets around partsof it and you can still love
your child like that could beseparate

SPEAKER_03 (36:49):
because it's a massive shift you know it's and
again that this feeds back intothis you know these needs that
we have right so for me like mydriving human need is certainty
I am very routine orientated I'mvery systematic so for you know
those 40 years I got to do thatand then all of a sudden my

(37:10):
routines were impacted and mysystems were impacted because I
had a new person to look afterand I just hadn't considered
that because I didn't know Ididn't understand this framework
so when you don't know what youdon't know it's very difficult
to navigate it The same if youare someone who thrives on
variety, but all of a suddenyou've got to be at home, you

(37:31):
know, for feeding or sleepingor, you know, so either way it's
impacted when you become aparent, right?
Especially in those early days.
But when you understand that youcan at least make a bit of room
for that.
And I think that's what happensis we don't make that room.
I don't think we reallyanticipate that.
what it's like having a child,because you can't, because we're

(37:54):
all so different.
Our delivery is unique, ourpregnancy is unique.
You know, if you're adopting achild or you're bringing in a
foster child, whatever is cominginto the dynamics of your
regular day-to-day life, youcan't anticipate how that is
going to fall out.
Yeah.
If you've got an understanding,and like you say, having someone

(38:15):
say, it's okay...
that in itself can just you knowokay some breathing room right
yeah

SPEAKER_01 (38:24):
and I think oh man I love this conversation so much
longest podcast ever but I justthink like I just my my dream
would be just that there'd bemore room for um Like people
actually telling their truthwithout feeling the risk of

(38:45):
shame.
Because I know I even talk tochildless people who say talk
about their friends from highschool and they're like, oh,
yeah, like she had her baby andshe was like back in the club.
And I like let them say theirthing.
And I'm like, good for her.
Good for her.
She's not a bad mom because wedo know the stats that dad's.
get more leisure time and takeup more hobbies with every

(39:07):
subsequent child so I heard

SPEAKER_03 (39:10):
you saying

SPEAKER_01 (39:10):
that I

SPEAKER_03 (39:10):
was listening to one of your one of the podcasts and
I heard you saying that and Iwas like this is really
interesting um because I alsohave a take on for the dads
right and it's but it's comingthe other way where I sometimes
feel like they can be left outof these conversations yeah And
the impact on them can, youknow, I don't know who these

(39:32):
dads are that are getting themore leisure time.
It wasn't my husband.

SPEAKER_01 (39:37):
You know, so for me- Nikki, that's not surprising
that you would find a goodhusband who wouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_03 (39:44):
You know, the impact for him, you know, I would
reflect back and I think men,primitively, they are
hunter-gatherers, they fixstuff, right?
So when their wife is on thekitchen floor- and they don't
know how to fix her, they gointo paralysis.

(40:04):
You know, I often think we wereboth overseas.
We were away from our families.
The weight of the financialpressure of him going to work
was probably a bit heavierbecause I was then at home.
He was also getting up throughthe night.
We never did this role thingthat many families do where it's

(40:25):
like, okay, you go to work.
therefore you get to sleep everynight and I'll just carry the
weight of everything.
That's bullshit.
Because I'm like, yeah, they getto go to work.
They get to step out into adifferent environment with other
adults.
They get to drink coffee whileit's hot.
You know, they get to use theirbrains and they get to do their
contribution to the world.

(40:45):
Whatever job it is they do, theyare getting the significance of
being paid for that.

SPEAKER_01 (40:51):
So don't tell me- Being alone on their commute.

SPEAKER_03 (40:54):
You know, it should be one another because that
drives me nuts.
If you guys were in it together,then that's, you know, you need
to work through this together.
So, yeah, and then he was, youknow, obviously not getting to
exercise as much because when hecame home from work, I had to
have a break or a nap or, youknow, so he was taking over.

(41:15):
So there was that impact forboth of us not getting to
exercise so much, not perhapseating as well as we should
have.
And this is all the stuff that Iput into my digital program.
It's all super practical becauseit matters.
And I still use my digitalprogram.
Now, if I turn my laptop, I'vegot two sheets pinned up in my

(41:37):
kitchen because it helps.
It helps to navigate these rolesthat often become stuck, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah, so it's interestingthat there's the other side of
this because I've been lookingat it from that side, you know,
but then when you're sayingthere's stats that prove this,
that these guys are getting todo more and you're like, wait a

(41:58):
minute.

SPEAKER_01 (42:00):
Well, and like you said, nobody's thriving in this
environment.
So as much as like, I still feelthe rage because Women are still
carrying this.
Primary parents are stillcarrying this, the invisible
labor, the mental load, thehands-on, the lack of sleep.
But at the same time, there's aloss of the lack of contact,

(42:23):
right?
of the other parent, in whichcase most of the times it's
dads, that they are not goingthrough those parental brain
changes that are reallyimportant for them to connect to
their children, to actually havethis like, you know, protection
and connection.
And that's why we see as thatgoes on, the resentment comes

(42:45):
that like so many women I talkto feel like their husbands and
the dads are threatened by thelike, loss that they get from
their children.
And so they're like, well, youdon't touch me anymore because
you're always touching thatbaby.
And we, you don't want to doanything for me because all you
talk about is the baby or thekids.
And so because they haven'tconnected and actually like

(43:08):
literally gone through thoseneurological changes.
And so I think that's reallysad.
It's sad that they are alone inthe house all the time and they
opt out of things and they don'tknow their children and you
know, they see their children asmore of a threat of their
resources and time than they doas something that they should
protect with their life.

(43:28):
It's sad.
And so, I mean, but as anadvocate for the primary parents
and women and mothers and queerfolks, I, I'm like, you guys
find your, your own support andthen you come to the table and
we have to fix this together.
So like I have empathy andcompassion and I understand
their thing.
But like my work is, is on, isover here.

SPEAKER_03 (43:51):
But it is, it's like, you know, everyone needs
an advocate, right?
Everyone deserves it.
And I do think, you know, a lotof the time it is, you know,
you've got to come to the tablebeing prepared to do the work
because you and I, can't do thatwork for them you know I had
this conversation this morningyou know if you want something

(44:12):
to change in your life if you'renot happy with the balance of
where things are I think theexpectations and this is what I
believe is one of thecontributing factors is that
these expectations aren'tdiscussed before the child
arrives it's afterwards so it'swhen you're in crisis mode And
that's when you'recommunicating, I need your help,

(44:34):
I need you to do this.
And then they're defensive.
But if this is managedbeforehand, like who is doing
the nighttime stuff?
Who's getting up with someone,you know, based on how they're
feeding, whatever the choicesare made there.
Like, how is this going to work?
And, you know, we had spokenabout this before my son

(44:55):
arrived, that I had chosen toexpress milk You know, I was
like, I'll try breastfeeding,but really what I wanted to do
was express milk so that hecould have it in a bottle so
that both of us could feed him.
Because I was aware that being abit older, you know, I'm not
saying I was ancient and I don'tlike that term geriatric mum,

(45:17):
right?
But I was 41 when he came tokeep some balance.
I knew the impact of notsleeping, how that makes me
feel.
So we had these conversations inadvance.
And therefore, we were able todo that, right?
So, you know, this is me who didhave that support.
I mean, when it comes to theon-hand stuff, you know, my

(45:39):
husband is an amazing, amazingfather.
So then I think about people whodon't have that, and I think,
fuck, you know, I know how Ifelt.
And that was with a supportivepartner, you know, so...
I think preparation is somethingthat really these conversations

(46:00):
need to happen before.
Talking about the in-laws or theexpectations of people coming to
visit, you know, the foodpreparation, the taking care of
the house.
If you've got older kids, what'shappening with the siblings?
Like all of these things shouldbe looked at.
I'm not saying you'll have yourideal answer because sometimes
it doesn't work out.

(46:22):
But have a baggy enough to livein idea.
of how you're going to look.
And I think that would helpmanage some of the expectations
because I don't think we doexpect what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_01 (46:35):
No, and well, as a society, though, we do expect
the one parent who's typicallythe dad is going to leave the
house to go to work and theneverything else.
And, you know, that's drivinggroceries, taking the bins to
the curb for pickup day, drycleaning, like doctor's
appointments.
And 24-7, that is what thesocial expectation is.

(46:58):
And so in the absence of a clearconversation that challenges
that, The family is agreeing tothat.
And dads are shocked that you'dbe upset.
They're like, but that's thedeal we made.
That's what everybody does.
I go to work and you doeverything else.
Yeah.
Oh, man, anytime I would, Idon't have very many men in my

(47:19):
house, as you can imagine.
I don't, I don't know that manymen.
But I've had some renosrecently.
So I've had a lot of tradescoming through my house.
And none of them get to leavewithout me being like, hey,
question for you.
Do you have children?
Oh, yeah.

(47:40):
And I'm like, does she allowed?
Is she allowed as much time outof the house as you are?
And they're like, well, we tryto get her like, you know a
girl's night once a month butlike she never really wants to
she's too tired and i was likedo you know your uh your kid's
shoe size do you know like ifthey have any allergies and i'll
ask like a million questions andif they say no to any of them
i'm like why why don't you knowthese things and they're

(48:02):
literally like lady i just wasinstalled installing your heat
pump i'm i need to go and i'mlike no no one more minute

SPEAKER_03 (48:10):
that's it you know that you've now just scared off
any future tradesmen coming intoyour head they'll be like I've
heard that name Bianca

SPEAKER_01 (48:22):
and my husband has a big sign over it that says the
pussy palace so they're likeit's probably spread real
quickly they're like no mandon't don't go there it's angry
lesbians

SPEAKER_03 (48:33):
love it but it is and it's It's tough because we
can talk about this stuff allday and obviously there's a lot
that is generalisations andthere are good guys out there
for anybody who's got hope for agood man.
They do exist.
But it is a shame because we dohave these generalised

(48:54):
statistics right and the waythat society has set it up and
it's like okay now it's time tostart shifting these things and
I do believe that some of it isshifting you know I'm hopeful
but I don't know maybe I'm justbeing optimistic

SPEAKER_01 (49:08):
Well, we also probably curate our lives that
we have a skewed.
I'm always shocked when I talkto other people when I leave my
bubble of like very carefullypolitically and socially curated
world.
So, you know, I think that thegeneral messaging and we're
going backwards with, you know,what's happening to the south of

(49:28):
my of my country here.
When we look at the US of A,that we are we're losing footing
and we're I oscillate betweendeep optimism because I'll meet
some really wonderful men andthen I'm like, no, I think we're
going in the right direction.
And then I look at thestatistics and talk to people

(49:49):
outside of my community and I'mlike, oh man, we're going the
wrong direction.
And

SPEAKER_03 (49:54):
I think that's quite important when you're looking at
your own environment because I'mvery much someone who...
I get up in the morning andthink, right, what can I control
in my day-to-day life?
And it's usually this perimeter.
When I start watching the newsand, you know, looking at
politics and looking at thesethings, you know, I just get

(50:15):
that doom, that fear, and itreally impacts how I play out in
that day, my mood and myemotions.
So I'm very aware of how much Ilet go.
Some might say it's ignorant.
I should know more of what'sgoing on in the world.
But I feel like my duty of careis to my completely oblivious,

(50:37):
happy seven-year-old boy.
That's where my focus goes rightnow, you know, is making sure
that he has a healthy and happymum that can support him.
So, yeah, it's not always easyto do that, you know.
But I think there are times,especially, and if you are in...

(50:57):
the depths of it just now.
If you are someone that'sfeeling, when you're listening
to us chat, that you're in thatspiral and you're not sure how
to get out, watching the news isnot for you just now.
You've got to really prioritisegetting your strength so that
you can navigate the day-to-daystuff.

(51:18):
I think that's quite important.
Our external stimulus isimportant, right?
What you listen to, who you...
who you hang out with sometimesthat can be detrimental you know

SPEAKER_01 (51:30):
yeah you have to be really really intentional as
you're trying to get well and Iknow I just came out of a pretty
long long by like socialstandards it was six weeks but a
bereavement leave and I stay upon politics I stay up on you
know because it's relevant tothe work that I do as an
activist and um and I I I had toput it down and I know that

(51:54):
there was a stress for mebecause a lot of the times, you
know, with the conversationaround white supremacy and
privilege that it's a lot offlack being like, well, it must
be nice to be able to like putthis down because you're not say
living in Palestine or you'renot, you know, in the South of
the US or, you know, any ofthese things.
And it's a yes and, you know,because I can't, you know, I

(52:16):
can't be a good parent and Ican't continue being an
activist.
So I know we have a lot of...
activists that listen to thispodcast and it's a way more
nuanced conversation than justlike a cut and dry privilege
conversation.
I know that I would not be ableto, it just wasn't possible.
And it was the first time that Ihad to step away from the news.

(52:37):
Ironically, it was probably someof the biggest biggest shifts in
the world so I'm feeling like alittle bit embarrassed how out
of the loop I am but I know evenjust when I made contact points
with it like in my dentistoffice when the news was on my
anxiety and depression justwhere I almost just wanted to
get in my car and drive and rockat home kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 (52:58):
You can't be the best showing up doing what you
do if you allow yourself to beburnt out and to be completely
encompassed by it.
So you have to unapologeticallysay, I need time out.
I need to put it down.
And I think that people who, inwhatever space you're in,

(53:20):
understand that we all have tolook at ourselves so that we can
show up and do the work that wedo you know what's important
yeah for sure I

SPEAKER_01 (53:27):
was it was such a media lockdown so I like didn't
even open social media I didn'tlisten to the news which is like
us on non-stop at my house Ididn't read anything um and so
even my daughter was like oh mygoodness the super bowl halftime
I was like oh yeah that's comingup she's like mom it was three
weeks ago I was like I missedthe super bowl wow all right
like there you go there was likeseven six seven weeks of just

(53:50):
complete darkness and now i liverurally so it was real easy to
do like when i lived in torontoit would have been hard to

SPEAKER_03 (53:57):
it's refreshing as well because we didn't always
have the access to it all i knowand this is what i find
interesting like my husband's ahistory teacher so nerd i didn't
even really like school i can'tbelieve i married a teacher but
like when I you know when I talkabout I don't pay enough

(54:18):
attention to the news and youknow and it can be deemed to be
ignorant so there are times whenyou know I'll say to Kevin the
world scares me just now youknow we've got our son and this
scares me and he'll say thingslike we're actually living in
safer times I'm like how can yousay that and he's like because
we didn't know everything youknow there were lots of

(54:39):
atrocities that went on but wedidn't know.
And of course now we've gotmedia who also drive us, we're
funneled into what we thinkabout everything, right?
Based on how it's delivered tous.
Like it is, and I think that'swhat terrifies me is because
it's so controlled fromdifferent media outlets, how we
find out things.

(55:00):
So I tend to go, I'm going towatch Bridget Jones with my
popcorn and I'll be quite happythere.
Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 (55:07):
Well, and the anxiety, so like not only world
events, but also there's so muchfear around parenting and new
research.
And if you don't do this, thisis going to happen to your
child.
And there's a book, I think it'scalled Ordinary Insanity.
Did I make that up?
No, I think it is, but it'stalking about, it's another one
of those, you that because we'reconstantly scanning to be risk

(55:32):
averse and to mitigate thoserisks.
which some of them are so lowand the actual actions to
mitigate them hold moreguaranteed side effects, risks
like anxiety to the parents.
And, and so, you know, we'retaking in that as well as just
the climate of general anxietyin the world is anxious, which

(55:54):
makes us individually anxious.
And then we send that back outin the world and we're in this
like anxiety and depression loopwith our environment.

SPEAKER_03 (56:03):
And that is why, you know, for me, i believe we have
to do is to do our own personaldevelopment right when you're
becoming a parent i don't idon't talk to anyone or teach
anyone about how to feed theirchild how their child should
sleep whether that's with themor not with it it's nothing to
do with that what i'm doing isinviting people to come and do a

(56:26):
bit of personal development andunderstand themselves a little
better as to how they tick Andto find the ways that you then
tap into that to build your ownconfidence so that you can stand
in that space with yourdecisions and be okay with them.
I remember when we were out onetime having coffee and there was

(56:50):
an older gentleman that we knewand he came by and he stopped
and he's looking in at Archieand he's like, oh, he's getting
big.
And he made a reference, I can'tremember word for word, but he
made a reference to Archie beingbreastfed.
And I said, oh no, he gets abottle, right?

(57:10):
He was actually combination fed.
He got some formula, some of mymilk.
Nothing to do with the man.
I don't even know why I wasexplaining it, but this is why I
was explaining it because weautomatically feel we've got to
justify our decisions.
I was in that.

SPEAKER_01 (57:23):
To a

SPEAKER_03 (57:23):
stranger.
Yeah.
a stranger man he's like hewasn't a stranger we didn't know
him but when I said you knowthat I wasn't breastfeeding he
went why ever not and that'swhen you know it obviously
kicked in and I saw my husbandkind of react because he thought
she's going to absolutely loseher shit on this guy and I

(57:45):
didn't and but I did say I don'tthink that's any of your
business But it's somethingthat's prominent in my memory
because I'm like, he made mefeel like shit by saying, why
ever not?
When really, you know, had I hadmy own boundaries and my own
confidence around my decisions,then it maybe wouldn't have
impacted me so much.

(58:07):
And that is what I'm doing forparents.
I'm not here to tell them how toparent or how to manage the
behaviours or any of that otherstuff.
That is not what I do.
I'm here to go, can we just talkabout how you can set up little
toolbox so that when you'remaking the decisions they're
yours they're not the decisionsbecause instagram has loads of
accounts where they do x y and zyou know let it be your own

(58:30):
guide yourself and the parentthat you want to be and when you
are doing that it's amazing youknow like there's a lot of
things i don't do just becauseeveryone else is doing it like
lot of children are reallystructured now they've got
school all week and then at theweekends they've got x y and z
and and i'm sure it'll come i'msure archie will come to us and

(58:54):
say i want to do this sportsthing or whatever but right now
we're not pushing them becauseat the weekend he wants to watch
tv and eat toast and he wants tohang out at home if you ask him
what do you want to do he'll sayi just want to stay at home And
we're like, sweet.
And we play games and we takehim to the supermarket and he
hates it.

(59:14):
But we're like, you know, allthose snacks you want, got to go
buy them.
But what I mean is that so manypeople now are scared to just
stop and have a simple life.
Yeah.
Because they feel they'resupposed to have these kids
like, you know.
Over-programmed.

SPEAKER_01 (59:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But they need to know all thesethings.
Yeah.
I mean, when you're, breakingthe the mold of of dominant
culture and what ourexpectations are anything is is
considered like subversive andradical um you know and it's not
like none of these things areradical they're just not

(59:50):
expected or like they're there'sa reason why we're forced on the
same cattle run

SPEAKER_03 (59:56):
yeah and we're given that new narrative right it's
like change and Because theworld's changing and
everything's evolved, you know,and a lot of it, whether we like
it or not, you know, I've beengoing to meetings about like the
anxious generation, you know,the book that was written.
And again, this could be anotherpodcast, right?

(01:00:16):
Because I've got differentopinions about a lot of this as
well.
But the fact is, is that thingsare evolving and a lot of it is
out of our control, you know,and as parents, we evolve.
So what we once thought wascool, changes and that's okay
too and i think a lot of peopleget stuck with their previous
identity or the stories thatthey tell themselves about who

(01:00:40):
they are and how they show up inthe world they think they've got
to maintain that and it's likeno it's okay to let go and to
let it evolve you can changechange your opinion you can
change your mind you know so ithink that's important that
people understand that you knowand they don't have to because
otherwise you just go intoconflict with yourself if you're

(01:01:01):
trying to resist that change andthat evolving you're just in a
state of conflict then withyourself right because you're
like I should be out partyingeven though I've got a kid but I
really can't because I'm awfullytired it's like it's okay if you
don't party anymore it's fine inthe ages now I think you know
like you and I you just saidyou're in your 40s as well

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:24):
You look amazing, by the way.
Anybody, go over to Nikki'sInstagram right now, follow
while you're there, and look athow young she looks.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:33):
Thank you, babe.
48.
I think I pickled myself withthe previous speaker.
48, 49 in March.
But there's also a huge evolvingwith that.
Even if we haven't becomeparents, I think you just
become...
less tolerant of other people'sbullshit.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:53):
Yeah, for sure.
A hundred percent.
I'm falling into that real nice.
I'm just like, fuck off.
Don't touch me.
Don't talk to me.
Why are you talking to me?
I'm

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:03):
getting better.
I'm a bit of a, I was a verymuch a people pleaser.
Yeah.
I didn't like rocking the boatand I didn't like, but I feel
like I've gotten way better now.
And especially coming into thisspace, you know, when I started
as the Scottish soul sister andI've been doing collaborations
and podcasts and all thesethings.
But now, you know, I don't seeeverything as opportunity and

(01:02:26):
I've had conversations withpeople about potential
collaborations and I've beenlike, fuck no.
We don't jam.
We are on different pages.
That is not collaboration.
You know, this is just trying toget more followers or whatever
it is that you're trying to do.
so that takes that bit ofassertiveness right to say no

(01:02:46):
that's not for me and when youstart building that muscle then
you can stand in that space andgo okay we know what we're doing
now you know

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:54):
yeah i'm learning what i'm learning that good girl
feels real nice i'm like oh getout of here get out of your
people pleaser get out of yourperson that says yes to
everything no matter what

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:03):
exhaustion as a badge of honor no way yeah no no
no um

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:09):
No, she's got to go.
So I know there's a lot of toolsand like when we have the
self-care conversation, whichall the things, oh, the sun is
out, it's on my face.
Unfortunately, the video is nothere because I'm just like burnt
out white person on the...
on the camera, but it feels realnice in my eyes.

(01:03:29):
Okay.
So when we talk about self-careconversation, a lot of the times
it feels like more you have todo, like even when you were
saying you've got to go out orlike have girls time and you're
like, I don't want, I don't wantto go for a pedicure.
I don't want to go to a yogaclass.
I'm too tired to go out fordinner with my friends.
So I know that you really wantto, you know, change that

(01:03:51):
conversation as well and haveself-care conversations.
be something that's not more youhave to do when you're already
doing too much.
So can you talk about how you'redoing that through your work?
So when I talk about self-care,I

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:04):
think sometimes when you say self-care, people
automatically think, you know,massage, spa day, these kind of
luxury things.
So the way that I've broken itdown is to imagine that you have
three accounts and your firstaccount is your physical medical
account.
Because mental health ismassively impacted by our
physical health, right?

(01:04:24):
So if you have issues with yourgut, if your hormones are
imbalanced, if you have avitamin deficiency, you know,
for women, it's keeping on topof having our smear tests, our
mammograms.
For the guys, having, you know,prostate checks, looking after
our physical body can have ahuge impact.

(01:04:45):
So that, to me, comes underself-care.

UNKNOWN (01:04:48):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:48):
The second account is where it's like, okay, do you
want your massage, your spa day?
You know, when I lived in Dubai,I would always say, you know, go
to the Maldives for a weekendbecause people actually do that.
We didn't, but people did.
But whatever seems like aluxury, you know, to do, like
you say, is it something elsethat you have to do?

(01:05:10):
And then the third one is, youknow, your third account is your
daily habits.
And I think that's where yourpower lies.
I feel that often when we'relooking at self-care and how to
get ourselves feeling better,there's quite a big distance.
It's a bit like when people haveNew Year resolutions and they go
from drinking bottles of Baileysand eating mince pies, and all

(01:05:33):
of a sudden they're going to goto the gym five days a week and
they're going to have kale forbreakfast.
And you're like, no, you're not.
Or you maybe will for a coupleof weeks, but you're not going
to keep doing that.
So everything that I talk aboutis almost like that term Kaizen,
the Japanese term, which is likesmall increments making things
better.
So an example is like when I getup in the morning, I do a seven

(01:05:55):
minute workout because sevenminutes is like, okay, we can
handle seven minutes rather thanlike you say, they have to go
for an hour to the gym or, youknow, it's bringing it into a
space where it's within reach.
Yeah.
And again, everything that I dois practical.
So I talk about yourenvironment.

(01:06:16):
Are you getting natural sunlightin?
Because I feel that the wellnessindustry, I don't know how you
feel about this.
I feel like the wellnessindustry and the coaching world,
and it's just like, it'smassive.
And there are so manymodalities, but often they're
bypassing the simplicity and thebasics of our day-to-day life.
So I've stayed in this space.

(01:06:37):
I've had business coaches tellme I should be doing X, Y, and
Z.
And I'm like, no, this is whatI'm doing.
And this is what has helped mebecause I always am very, very
clear that I still have shitdays.
You know, you don't just get ridof feelings of anxiety or
feelings of depression becausethey're still going to come and
bite you in the ass, right?

(01:07:00):
But what happens is that Idefinitely navigate it
differently now.
You know, and at the moment Idon't have medication, which is
great.
I don't have an issue withpeople taking medication.
If I had to go back on it, yes,I would.
But I feel like what I've done,the structure that I've built
for myself, I don't actuallyneed it.

(01:07:21):
Again, that comes intoexpectation.
I think sometimes people get thepill and they think that's all
they need to do.
And it's like, it's not.
That's just a part of it.
You know, you also have to makewhatever changes are required at
that time.
And of course, that's difficultif you've just had a baby.
You know, it's like things arechanging enough.
So that's why we keep it simple.
We talk about, you know,managing your finances.

(01:07:45):
What's your budget looking likejust now?
And especially if you're acouple, you've just had a child,
maybe one's not going to beworking for a while.
There are different outlays whena kid comes along.
You know, so getting into aspace, I really struggled with,
when we moved to Montenegro tobecome financially dependent on

(01:08:07):
Kevin I had worked since I waslike 16 and other than my
parents had never beenfinancially dependent on anyone
and I remember us having theconversation at that time I was
like dude I cannot come to youand say can I get 10 euros to go
for coffee like that would havedestroyed me so we worked out

(01:08:27):
our shit and and that's what I'mtrying to invite people to do.
I'm like, look at your budgets,look at what you're doing with
your time.
This is self-care.
You know, it's just that wedon't always put it in that
terminology, but this isself-care, you know, managing
your expectations.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:46):
That's amazing.
I mean, I think so muchself-care is stopping things,
like doing less.
That's like one of the greatestacts of self-care for me was
like stopping like not doingthings.
And you'd be surprised.
We can always talk ourselves.
out of putting something down.
Like we have, we can justify allthe things that we do, but like

(01:09:07):
what happens if your partnerpicks up their own dry cleaning
because it's inconvenient foryou?
Like you can adjust and make itwork.
And those are small tasks.
You know, you don't have, well,the years that I stopped going
to my family of origin forholidays was like such a game
changer.
And then it just, that reallykicked it off.
Oh, I actually don't have to doanything.

(01:09:29):
And I think that's, that's, sucha radical act of self-care

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:35):
yeah it's like say putting things down you know we
spoke earlier about like thealcohol so many things are
habitual so many things are justbecause we've always done it we
don't even question it we don'tlook at it and it's not until
something makes you look at itand you go oh actually so things
like you know I had a really itwas a natural shift when I

(01:09:56):
started doing all this like soactually was two so five years
ago And what I startedrealising, like, I love watching
some dark TV and I would readbooks that were always like
thrillers.
Someone has always beenmurdered.
And, you know, I would listen tolike Damien Rice and really, you
know, Anthony and the Johnsons,really fucking depressing music.

(01:10:19):
And it was one day I was at homeand I went to put music on and
it was one of those that I wentto play.
And I was like, oh my God, nowonder I'm fucking depressed.
And I started to realise theimpact of these things.
So then I would naturally, youknow, I started listening to
music, but I always loved dancemusic, upbeat stuff.

(01:10:40):
You know, I watch more comedynow, less dark stuff.
I still like the odd darkseries, you know, I love Stephen
Graham and people like that.
But we watch a lot of comediansand funny, light-hearted things.
You know, when I'm reading now,I'm not quite as dark.
I tend to read more that's to dowith what I'm doing, you know,
in this space.

(01:11:01):
Or a novel that is notspecifically about anyone being
murdered or anything dark.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:07):
That's hard.
I love my true crime.
I love

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:10):
my murder mysteries.
Yeah, we love a bit of car crashstuff, right?
But what I'm saying is when youbecome aware of that and you
start going, actually, this isfeeding my state, you know?
Yeah.
So it depends on the mood thatI'm in and how I'm feeling at a
particular time will determineif I go back into that space
again.
But I was never aware of itbefore.

(01:11:32):
So it was just habitual to methat I would just stay in this
kind of dark roomy space.
I was feeding it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think, um, it leaves so muchspace.
Um, anybody listening, likeworking with somebody like Nikki
and really being prepared tolook at, like, if you hate
mealtime, there's probablysomething you can like overthrow
to make the whole thing feelgood, especially because feeding
with love is such a criticalpillar for mental health as
well.
Um, and body celebration.

(01:12:00):
So, um, you know, Nikki, I

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:03):
hate the baby.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:06):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:08):
Yeah.
Don't get me started.
My feet didn't bounce back.
My feet are a size bigger thanthey were before I had my kids.
Like, and he's seven and they'restill us.
I had to buy all new shoes.
Nobody told me that.
Nobody

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:22):
said that my feet were going to grow.
Yeah, they grow and they staygrown.
How can people work with you,

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:31):
Nikki?
So everything's on the website,on the Scottish Soul System.
and there is when you go onthere's a little quiz as well
which can help you identify whatneeds a bit of attention you
know with their self-care I lovea quiz I love fun stuff you know
and that's the thing even thoughthe space that I'm in is it's a

(01:12:53):
heavy space right mental healthis of course a heavy space but
I'm not here to feed that I'mhere to give you a bit of hope
you know and to have somewherewhere you can speak honestly
because that in itself is sohelpful.
It was the first thing that Idid.
I spoke to a counsellor and Ithought, this woman is going to

(01:13:16):
resign tomorrow.
I just felt that I was likegobbledygook, but because she
did what she did, she sent me anemail the next day and she was
able to read between the lines.
She could identify the thingsthat were contributing to how I
was feeling, It was amazing.

(01:13:38):
And I think that even whenyou've got super supportive
family and friends, we oftenwear a bit of a veil when we're
talking to them for differentreasons.
For myself, I didn't want my mumto worry.
I didn't want them to think Iwas a shit mum.
So I wasn't being fullytransparent.

(01:14:00):
But when I spoke to thecounsellor, who of course was a
removed third party counsellor,It gave me that opportunity to
actually see what was going on.
And it was the best thing that Iever did.
You know, so that's what I wantto be for other people.
I want people to know that thisis where they can come and let
rip.
There's no judgments.
There's no opinions.

(01:14:21):
I'm not here to fix it for you.
But hopefully I can give yousome guidance that can help you
to fix it and make things a biteasier as you transition, you
know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:30):
That's amazing.
And if anybody's curious, youcan reach out and chat with
Nikki.
She does free consultations.
There's lots of very affordableoptions to, you know, make sure
that you have these tools toprotect you and your family and
keep everybody well in thehousehold because, you know,

(01:14:50):
mental health, any kind ofunwellness in the household of
any person impacts everybodyelse so um we're gonna have all
those links in the show notes soyou can follow nikki on social
media you can check out herwebsite and you can find the
many ways to work with her nikkii'm so glad you got to be on the
podcast i feel like we need tohave a follow-up because there's

(01:15:13):
like so many directions i know iwas just gonna say you'll find
all

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:16):
the links at the end of this four hour

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:20):
podcast

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:20):
thank you so much for having me I love these
conversations and you know thatwe're out there hopefully
somebody that's listening willhave heard something that just
makes them feel heard and lessalone right

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:36):
yeah For sure.
And for those birth workers outthere, you can hear the way you
can maybe reframe some of thequestions you're asking.
And this is another really greatresource for you to recommend to
your clients and you can connectthem with Nikki.
And so that you can, we'retypically some of the first the

(01:15:58):
first line of defense ofcatching these issues before
they kind of get away fromparents and families.
So put, put Nikki in yourtoolbox and, and recommend her
to your clients.
Thanks everybody for listening.
And we will catch you on thenext episode of the hot and
brave podcast.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:21):
Want to keep hanging out?
We have created a free mindsetmini course to help change
makers and birth workers findbliss in their business.
You're not in this alone.
Let's build together.
Head to www.babomia.com slashbib to grab your space and a
free retreat.
Once again, go towww.babomia.com slash bib to

(01:16:47):
grab your spot.
We will see you next time on theHot and Brave Pod.
podcast.

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S5 E01 - Parenting, Mental Health & the Thief of Joy: A No-BS Chat with Nikki Steel Osborne

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S5 E01 - Parenting, Mental Health & the Thief of Joy: A No-BS Chat with Nikki Steel Osborne