October 23, 2025 • 47 mins
What if ambition isn’t the villain—just misunderstood? We sit down with Amina AlTai, author of The Ambition Trap, to rewire how we think about drive, success, and self-worth. Amina opens up about the health crisis that forced her to step off the treadmill, how core wounds like rejection or betrayal can fuel “painful ambition,” and the shift to a values-led practice that actually restores energy instead of draining it.
Together, we draw a clear line between passion and purpose—one meant to change, the other a steadier constellation that guides choices over time. Amina introduces the Three E’s framework—Exceptional, Excellent, Eh—to help you spot your zone of genius, release the work your brain wasn’t built for, and design a role or business that compounds your best contribution. We also explore the “ambition penalty” facing women and marginalized leaders, why culture rewards the wrong signals, and what it looks like to build teams and careers that honor well-being and impact.
The heart of our conversation pairs ambition with contentment, defined as unconditional wholeness—the knowledge of enough. Rather than dulling drive, contentment steadies it, letting you move through seasons of growth, rest, and renewal without burning out. Amina shares the messy realities of publishing, the power of integrity in promotion, and the moments of community that made the work feel alive. If you’re navigating career change, leadership growth, or entrepreneurship, this one delivers practical tools and a kinder map for sustainable success.
Amina's Book recommendation: Amber Rae book Loveable
More about Amina:
Amina AITai (pronounced AH-MIN-UH) is an executive coach and leadership trainer, proud immigrant and chronic illness advocate. A leading coach to notable leaders, executives and founders—Amina's mastery is in connecting us to our brilliance and teaching us to live and lead from it each day. She is the bestselling author of The Ambition Trap: How to Stop Chasing and Start Living, with Penguin/The Open Field.
Amina has partnered with progressive companies such as Google, Roku, Deloitte, Snap, Outdoor Voices, NYU and HUGE. She's an Entrepreneur Magazine expert-in-residence, a Forbes contributor and was named one of Success Magazine’s Women of Influence. Additionally, she's been featured in goop, Well+Good, The New York Times, Yahoo, NBC, Adam Grant’s Next Big Idea Club and more.
www.aminaaltai.com
IG @aminaaltai
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aminaaltai/
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Empowerment Fundamentals Course: https://members.houseofjermar.com/empowerment-course
Instagram: instagram.com/houseofjermar/
YouTube Channel: youtube.com/@Houseofjermar
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
At its root, I think ambition is neutral and natural.
It's simply a desire for morelife, a wish to unfold.
That's how I define it.
And if you define it that way,when you think about it, that's
inherent in every living thingon the planet, right?
From our plant babies to ourhuman babies, all of ourselves
have this desire for more life.
So how could that be bad orwrong?
But we live in a world wheresome folks experience an
(00:21):
ambition penalty.
So if you're a woman, a personof color, a queer person, a
person with a disability, ourambition is often seen as a
detractor.
So the research was done in thegender binary, but they found
that ambitious men and womenenter the workforce with the
same levels of ambition.
And then men are rewarded fortheirs.
Women, it's seen as a detractor.
(00:41):
So then we water it down, right?
And so there was so muchcomplexity around this word.
And I wanted to level set it,redefine it, and show another
way to be in relationship withit.
Because I think so much of whatwe've seen around ambition has
been really dysfunctional.
Like if we look at all thetropes and in the media and even
in movies and things like that,we see a lot of sort of this
voracious desire to succeed andthe cost of that.
(01:04):
But I believe that there's a wayto be ambitious and it to be a
really nutritive, generative,beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
Welcome to the House of German podcast, where
wellness starts within.
The House of German is alifestyle brand empowering women
to live all in through materialdesign and personal wellness.
We are a destination for womenready to reimagine what is
possible in their homes andlives and then create it.
(01:32):
We are honored to have you joinus on our mission to empower one
million women to live all in.
I am your host, Gene Collins,and I invite you to become
inspired by this week's guest.
Welcome to the House of Germarpodcast.
I'm Gene Collins, and today'sguest is an honor.
I have to tell you, this womanis so amazing.
(01:55):
Amina Altai.
She is the author of TheAmbition Trap.
And I am so excited because oneof the things I do on all my
shows, as you know, if youfollow me, is I always ask my
guests to recommend a book thathas impacted them either
personally or professionally.
And her book was recommended tome by one of my guests, and I
had never heard of it.
And so I went and I bought herbook and I started reading.
(02:16):
And then we got connected.
And her book is amazing.
I'm going to show it to thepeople for YouTube, The Ambition
Trap.
Folks, this is a great one.
And Amina, your story is soinspiring.
Your book is amazing.
And I am so excited to dig in.
So welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (02:29):
I'm delighted.
Oh, it's a pleasure.
And we are both doing the bigheadphones today.
We are rocking the bigger.
We're like, yeah, don't mind thenerdy look, but it is what is
working today.
So we can actually hearourselves and the sound will
come out the best.
So, you know, this is notexactly the glam look, but but
it's the best for recording.
So I thank you.
(02:50):
Okay.
You have a book.
But before we talk about yourbook, there was a journey to the
book, which I think is reallyimportant for people.
Would you mind sharing yourjourney at a high level that got
you to even be an entrepreneur,a coach, all the things that you
are now?
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yes.
So I'll take you back to theorigin story.
I started my career in marketingand brand management, and I
loved it in the beginning.
And I'm the child of immigrantsand was taught to kind of, you
know, keep your head down, workreally hard, have the great
on-paper life.
Everything will be great.
But six years into my marketingcareer, I was so boundaryless
(03:28):
and codependent and not takingcare of myself and overworking
that I burned out and Ideveloped two autoimmune
diseases.
And I'm telling it in thesynthesized, sanitized version.
It actually happened in a verydramatic fashion where I was
driving to a client for aregular Friday meeting, and I
get a call from my doctor, andshe says, Amina, if you don't go
(03:51):
to the hospital now instead ofgoing to your client, you will
be days away from multiple organfailure.
And so that was my stop momentbecause what 28-year-old gets a
call like that, right?
And so that was the moment thatI was like, wow, okay, I really
have to radically reimagine mylife and my relationships to
success and all the things.
And from there, I went on my eatpray love year to kind of learn
(04:12):
all these different modalitiesto feel better in my own life.
And I studied everything fromcoaching to nutrition to
mindfulness to somatics.
And at the end of a several yearjourney, I was just like, I need
to teach other people thisbecause this work has saved my
life.
And long story short, I've beenan executive coach now for the
last 10 years.
And, you know, hindsight is2020.
And I feel so lucky to have hadthat moment so that I could be
(04:35):
here right now.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
And by the way, folks, when you read her book,
she does give all kinds ofdetails.
And as I was reading her book, Iwas like, oh my goodness, what
it's it's wild.
Because you don't, I was like,obviously, you're still alive.
So I know it had a happy ending.
You're still alive.
But as you're reading it, I'mlike, oh my goodness.
And I personally, as beingsomeone who came from the
marketing and advertising world,came from corporate America,
(04:58):
came from that fast-paced life.
I was like, I feel you.
Like I know what I know whatit's like to have that run and
that rush and that client andthat working 80 hours a week.
Like I was like, it took meright back there the way you
describe it in your book.
And I think so many women canrelate.
And so much of your book isabout that and ambition.
(05:19):
So before we get into your book,how did you decide you even
wanted to write a book in thefirst place?
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
It was something that I knew that I always wanted
to do, especially since I becamea coach.
And it was really interestingbecause in 2019, I was working
on an entirely different bookproposal and I had an entirely
different agent.
And then in March of 2020, atthe beginning of the pandemic,
my agent calls and says, Hey,Amina, I can't take a risk on a
new author.
This book, you know, won't cometo be.
(05:46):
This is where we part ways.
And I remember being sodevastated and crying for like
three days.
But at the end of those threedays of tears, I remember having
this moment where I just knew soclearly, I was like, the work is
still becoming.
It's not what it's supposed tobe yet.
There will be a book, just thework is still maturing.
And I was right.
And it was really instrumentalbecause in 2020, at the height
(06:08):
of the social justice uprisings,I ended up coaching a handful of
celebrity girl bosses who werecanceled.
And I very clearly state that mybook is not about cancel
culture.
That's a whole other thing.
But it really sort of elucidateda lot of the patterns around
ambition that I'd seen in mylife and my clients' lives.
And it was just happening inthis sort of boiling point,
pressure point moment.
And so I just put together thisframework on ambition.
(06:30):
And then for two years, I wasjust teaching it behind the
scenes to my clients.
And then one client looks at mein 2022 and says, Where's your
book?
You need a book.
And I was like, So funny, youshould ask.
I don't have one.
And then she was like, a dearfriend of mine that used to be a
Buddhist meditation teacher justbecame an agent.
I feel like the two of you willbe obsessed with each other.
She was right.
We like, we met, we hit it off,we worked on the proposal
(06:52):
together, we took it to market,we sold the book in the first
week.
And I share this story because Ithink it's so important.
When the timing isn't right, youpush, you force, it doesn't
unfold.
When the timing is right, whenthe work is where it's supposed
to be, it flows.
And so I think it's just a sucha great example of that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Oh, a perfect example of that.
And so many of us, especially inthe entrepreneur space, we've
been there.
We have these ideas, and we justwant with like our whole heart
and soul for it to take off.
And then it doesn't.
And learning to let go as anentrepreneur and as a spiritual
person, learning to let go andjust trust the universe, God,
(07:29):
whatever you want to call it.
Just trusting that process is sohard.
It's all hard for me.
So, like to me, that's thehardest part of this all
manifesting and creating yourlife.
Right.
So hard to just let go.
So I love to hear stories likeyours that just remind us there
is a reason behind everythingthat we do.
Yes.
And we may not know it now, butit's always revealed.
(07:52):
Yes, always.
How long did it take you fromthe time that you sold your book
until it went out to market?
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
Oh, almost three years.
So I started working on the newproposal in May of 2022.
And I didn't finish the proposaluntil August.
And then we we really chose totake the book to market in
September because it's kind of asort of a slow period in
publishing over the summer.
So we took it to market rightafter Labor Day.
It sold the beginning ofSeptember.
(08:18):
And then I officially startedwriting in November.
And then the book came out May13, 2025.
So two and a half years of realrigorous writing, but three
years in the process.
Which is also a reminder topeople.
You have to be patient.
So patient.
And you know, I remember sayingto my agent and my editor when
they gave me the timeline forpublication, I was like, Oh, I
(08:38):
could do this in a year.
You sure you don't want to moveit up?
And they were like, no, no, wecould.
And they're like, don't worry,there's a long queue and all the
things.
And I am so grateful now that Ihad that extra time because I
needed it.
Like, first of all, as afirst-time author, I did not
know how to write a book.
Yes.
Right.
I I've written so much, youknow, short form content, white
papers, blog posts, all thethings.
One of the things my editoralways says to me is like,
nobody knows how to write a bookbecause every book is different.
(09:00):
But I really didn't know how towrite a book.
And so you have to learn that inthe process.
It's not just about puttingforth your thought leadership
and your teachings, but you'relearning a whole new way of
communicating.
So I needed that time.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
You do.
And you need the time to findyour voice within your book.
And so your book, you have to gobuy her book because you have
stories, you have examples, youhave examples from clients, you
have actual exercises, and youhave chapter summaries, which I
just have to tell you forsomeone like myself, I do not
consider myself ADHD and I loveto read, but nothing is better
(09:34):
than a chapter summary whenyou're talking about personal
growth.
So kudos to you.
Cause it doesn't always startout that way that this is the
format.
SPEAKER_00 (09:42):
The chapter summary is incredible.
Thank you.
I'm I I needed that too, right?
I like to put the period on theend of the sentence.
And so just to be like, wait,what did I learn?
So that's how my brain works aswell.
I'm glad it resonated.
SPEAKER_01 (09:54):
Oh, it so did.
And it's so practical.
Nothing's better than apractical book with examples.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
Yes.
I'm curious how you felt.
But one of the things for me islike as a coach, right?
I think, and I coach a lot oflike highly ambitious, highly
successful women, and we live somuch in our heads and we can
intellectualize things so much.
And so it was very important tome that the book was filled with
exercises so we could take itfrom the head and really embody
it.
And so then it becomes this newneural pathway that's just a
default setting for us versus anidea that we've just let stay in
(10:22):
the intellectual realm.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
And you talk about mindset, you talk about how does
your body feel, you talk aboutso many things.
We'll talk about this later.
You talk about happiness versuscontentment, like things that
really make you go inward.
It's not just here are yourpractical steps.
And by the way, here isambition.
And where do you fall on theside of ambition?
Are you in the painful ambitionpart or are you in the
(10:46):
purposeful ambitious part?
Like, where are you?
Yeah.
So ambition.
And what's so ironic about thisis when your book came to me,
which is why I believe like theuniverse is everything.
They're speaking all the time.
If you just be quiet and listen,so when I was told about your
book by Lee Burgess, one of ourguests, the day before I had
been at dinner with a girlfriendand we had a debate about the
(11:09):
word ambition.
Oh, when she told me about yourbook, and this woman is, you
know, we were both executives.
I worked for her for years.
She worked in corporate Americafor 35 years, you know, ran a
team, like huge executive.
And we had a whole debate aboutthe word ambition.
I'm a meaning of ambition.
And she went on to like stake inthe ground.
(11:30):
It's a negative term, on and onand on.
And I'm letting her go and goand go.
And I was like, you do know thatthat word is in my target
audience definition.
Like, my target audiencedefinition is that I help
ambitious women at a crossroads.
And I was like, so I don't lookat it like it's a negative word.
Yeah.
And we had this whole debate.
And then I heard about yourbook.
(11:50):
And I was like, this is perfect.
I am meant to read your book tounderstand more.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
I love this.
Can we?
I mean, like, want to send hermy book.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
I'm like, can I get an email address just you know
over a little audio book to her?
It's so I was like, it's such aninteresting content because I
had never thought before I hadthis debate with her.
I was like, what do you mean,ambition?
And I'm like, you are a highpower female executive.
You you don't think ambition isgood.
How do you think you got towhere you are?
Yes.
(12:20):
Yes.
So so big.
All right.
So so many questions about you.
Can we start with this conceptthat ambition is neutral and
natural?
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
Yes.
So, like you, a lot of folkseither feel that ambition is a
negative thing and a drawback,or it's a positive thing.
And when I was socializing thebook, people kind of inevitably
fell into two camps.
Camp A was I'm really ambitious,but then ambition has been
expensive, and that was mystory.
Or camp B was, I've seen thisreally negative experience of
(12:50):
ambition.
So I renounce it altogether, Ireject it.
And I think another way it'spossible and necessary.
So at its root, I think ambitionis neutral and natural.
It's simply a desire for morelife, a wish to unfold.
That's how I define it.
And if you define it that way,when you think about it, that's
inherent in every living thingon the planet, right?
From our plant babies to ourhuman babies, all of our cells
(13:11):
have this desire for more life.
So how could that be bad orwrong?
But we live in a world wheresome folks experience an
ambition penalty.
So if you're a woman, a personof color, a queer person, a
person with a disability, ourambition is often seen as a
detractor.
So the research was done in thegender binary, but they found
that ambitious men and womenenter the workforce with the
(13:33):
same levels of ambition.
And then men are rewarded fortheirs.
Women, it's seen as a detractor.
So then we water it down, right?
And so there was so muchcomplexity around this word.
And I wanted to level set it,redefine it, and show another
way to be in relationship withit.
Because I think so much of whatwe've seen around ambition has
been really dysfunctional.
Like if we look at all thetropes and in the media and even
(13:55):
in movies and things like that,we see a lot of sort of this
voracious desire to succeed andthe cost of that.
But I believe that there's a wayto be ambitious and it to be a
really nutritive, generative,beautiful thing.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Which is so true.
And then you define differenttypes of ambition.
We have painful ambition and wehave purposeful ambition.
Yes.
Talk about those two.
Because painful ambition, I waslike, oh, I I can totally relate
to that.
Yeah.
But I hadn't really thought ofpurposeful ambition the way that
you frame it up.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
Yes.
So though I think ambition isneutral and natural, there's two
orientations for our ambition.
So the first one is painfulambition.
So that's when our ambition isdriven by a core wound.
So there are five core wounds,and let me tell you all about
them.
So there's rejection,abandonment, humiliation,
betrayal, and injustice.
And core wounds are a very humanrite of passage.
(14:48):
It's like the initial injury ofthe psyche that happens in our
formative years.
And sometimes it happens in ourfamilies, even if you have the
most amazing parents.
Sometimes it happens on theplayground or vicariously
through watching other folks.
So we all have these initialinjuries of the psyche.
One of mine is rejection, theother is betrayal.
And as a result of those wounds,we wear a corresponding mask.
(15:08):
So if you have a rejectionwound, the mask you wear is
avoidance.
If you have a betrayal wound,the mask you wears control.
And most of us build ourambition upon those core wounds
and masks.
And that's painful ambitionbecause we're seeking everything
outside of ourselves to heal awound that is actually on the
inside.
And there's so many examples ofthis in the media.
Like one example that I talkabout in the book because it was
(15:30):
so present when I was writingthe book was Sam Bankman-Fried
and the infamous FTX scandal.
Do you remember this?
Yeah.
Yep.
It's a wild story to me.
It's wild for so many reasons.
So Sam Bankman-Fried was hailedthe boy wonder of crypto because
he amassed wealth nearly fasterthan anybody in history.
And he raised a ton of venturemoney.
Sequoia was like a big backerfor him.
(15:52):
And I remember this story soclearly because he was in this
pitch meeting with SequoiaCapital, which is like a really
illustrious venture fund to be,you know, a part of.
Oh, yeah.
And he's in the, he's in themeeting and he's playing League
of Legends.
And I just remember reading thisarticle being like, if any woman
rolled up to that room andplayed League of Legends, do you
think that we would get ourslice of the 2.7% of VC funding?
(16:12):
No way, right?
But they were super impressedwith his irreverence.
So they were like, here's acheck.
Anyway, he builds this businesson risky trading practices that
aren't exactly legal in the US.
Eventually, you know, peoplecatch wind of the fact that he's
siphoning consumer funds forpersonal use, files for
bankruptcy, ends up in jail, thewhole thing.
And at the end of the day, he'slost$1.7 billion in venture
(16:34):
funding and$8.6 billion ofconsumer funds.
Right.
And I think it's such a classicexample of painful ambition,
right?
So much pain on the inside thatwe're trying to amass more and
more and more and more.
And then ultimately there's thiscrash and burn.
So, anyway, long story short,that's painful ambition.
And purposeful ambition is whenour ambition, when we've looked
(16:54):
at those core wounds, we're nolonger coming from that place.
And instead, it's connected toour purpose, to our deeper why,
to our truth.
Yes, which is important.
SPEAKER_01 (17:02):
And you also talk about passion and purpose, which
was something I had actuallynever thought about because I am
where I am today, because I hada coach who challenged me to be
like, what are you passionateabout?
And I was like, I have nointerests.
Like, I am a single mom and avice president of sales, and I
am so boring, and I don't haveany passions.
(17:24):
And so it was sort of, well, youknow, you're about to turn 50.
No time like the present to findsome passions here.
And now I feel like I have somany passions and so many
interests, I have a hard timekeeping myself like in the
guardrails of life.
But you made me really thinkabout something really
interesting where you talkedabout passion versus purpose.
So I would love you to talkabout that.
(17:45):
And how did that kind of showup, whether it was in your
coaching or your own life, thatyou noticed the difference
between the two?
SPEAKER_00 (17:52):
Yes.
And I love that you're such apassionate person because it
points to aliveness, right?
I love that you're like theguardrails are like all over the
place.
But that's a beautiful thingbecause you're so alive.
So there's a distinction betweenpassion and purpose, but a lot
of the times, especially in thecoaching space, those things are
conflated, right?
They're like, find your passionand purpose as if it's one
thing.
So actually, passion by natureis fickle.
(18:14):
It is meant to change.
It's not stable, right?
Like, and I saw this in my ownlife.
I am the consummatemulti-hyphenate.
Like I am what they call ageriatric millennial, you know,
one of one of the first years ofmillennial.
And I think true to mymillennial nature, I am the
multi-hyphenate.
But I noticed throughout my lifeI was so passionate about all
these different things, right?
At one point, I went tonutrition school, business
background, goes to nutritionschool, was a spin teacher for a
(18:37):
little bit on the side.
Like I'm just a I get passionateabout all these different
things, but it's constantlychanging because it's supposed
to.
They're meant to be these sparksof light and joy and these like
ignition points for moments inour lives, but it's not stable.
We're not meant to anchor to it.
Purpose, however, is that morestable piece, right?
So, purpose, I love thedefinition from Stephen Cope
(18:59):
that it's to bring forth thebest that is within you.
And it's a bit more of a NorthStar, right?
It's not a singular North Star.
In the book, I talk about theconstellation of purpose because
I think the idea of one singularNorth Star is super tricky.
But those things work hand inhand, right?
So though we might be passionateabout these certain things, and
those could be breadcrumbs forour purpose, which is bringing
forth the best that is withinus, we don't want to anchor to
(19:21):
the passion because it is goingto change all the time.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
And I love that you talked about, and you just did
it and it's in your book too,that purpose can evolve and
move.
Because I feel I know for myselfwhen I got fired from my job and
like had to figure out who inthe world I was and had no
passions, had no interests,definitely had no purpose, had
no sense of self.
The task of figuring out mypurpose is so overwhelming that
(19:48):
for most people it is the stopsign of life, like right there
because it's so daunting.
It is.
And I often talk to people andwhen I interview people that
have been in similar situations,we talk about how your purpose
is just like the journey.
It can evolve and grow, and itdoesn't diminish the value of
your purpose at that point intime.
(20:09):
Yeah.
Thinking like I am one purpose,one being, one thing.
And if I don't figure out thatone reason why I'm on the planet
and living right now, I'm notdoing anything good.
And so I love that youreiterated that in your book and
you just did it here.
Yeah.
Which is important.
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
I'm so with you, right?
I feel like sometimes we put somuch pressure on ourselves to
figure out this singular thingthat's gonna fit us for a
lifetime.
But as humans, we'reevolutionary beings, we're
always evolving.
And there's through lines,right?
Like in my marketing career, Iworked a lot in the wellness
space.
I care about growth anddevelopment, which is a through
line for coaching, right?
But you can see the evolution ofmy career.
It's not been this like staticthing.
(20:46):
And so I think sometimes,though, there's a beautiful
magic thread.
It doesn't have to be stable.
SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
No, it can evolve and grow.
Yeah.
And if someone asks you, wheredo you feel you are on your
purpose right now for youpersonally?
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
It almost sounds trite to say it.
So sometimes I feel bad, butyeah, I think that's uh probably
a little mindset thing I need toget over.
I feel very squarely in mydharma.
I do feel like I am here doingwhat I'm supposed to do, that
I'm in my gifts.
It doesn't mean that there's notgrowth edges for me.
And it doesn't mean that there'snot places where I can get
deeper on the court with mygifts.
That's absolutely true.
But I really do feel like I'mserving in the way that I'm
(21:22):
supposed to serve.
SPEAKER_01 (21:23):
And that's beautiful.
All right, so you mentioned theword gifts, and that makes me
think about something else inyour book, which talked about
like I might not get this right,but it's like your gifts of
excellence, right?
Or understanding like your coregenius, let's say.
And you have what you call thethree E's with an exercise that
goes with the three E's, by theway.
So you all have to read the bookto do the exercise.
(21:44):
But can you talk about thatthree E's?
Because I felt like youexplained that really well to
give some perspective on tryingto understand where your
strengths are.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
Thank you.
And maybe we can go back tothis, but I'm super curious.
I want to hear about yourpurpose.
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Yeah.
I want to I want to hear howyou're feeling at it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
Yeah.
Well, I'll answer that before wetalk about the E's for you.
So I have to say, what's soironic from our purpose
perspective?
So smidge of background, Iworked in corporate America 22
years, advertising sales, ran asales team, got fired January
2020, was a single mom.
I've been a single mom mydaughter's entire life.
I got divorced when I was sixmonths pregnant.
Was a single mom, vice presidentof sales, and that was all I
(22:24):
did.
And then I got fired, and it wasright before COVID and right
before I turned 50.
And talk about a stop signmoment.
I had no idea who I was.
SPEAKER_00 (22:31):
Yeah, that's a second Saturn return, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
Yeah, like no idea.
And I worked with a coach and wekind of was like, Well, I I
don't really have any passions,but I have one thing that
interests me.
I bought a house and done thisconstruction, and I was like, So
this house thing is like, I'minterested in this the design,
the house, construction,buildings, home.
Like, this is kind of cool.
I was like, maybe I'll become areal estate agent.
And then I quickly was like, no,I'm not doing that.
There are too many of those.
So I decided I loved interiordesign.
(22:54):
And so I dove two feet intointerior design, started my own
business, went back to school.
And I felt like that was mypurpose.
Like, my purpose is to designbeautiful spaces to help people
feel better about theirenvironments, to then in turn
help them about themselves.
My platform was all aboutwellness within.
And it really felt like mypurpose until I wrote a book,
(23:14):
until I started podcasting,until I started getting back
into speaking, until I gotcertified as a mindset coach.
And then I was like, oh wait, myjourney and my purpose is like
spinning a little bit here.
And now, like you, I feel verygrounded in my purpose.
I really do.
And I really think my purpose isto empower ambitious women to
live all in and figure out howto become designers of their own
(23:37):
lives in any way I can help themdo that.
But like you, who knows wherethat's gonna go?
Yeah.
I have no idea.
But I always said to people whenI had to walk from interior
design, interior design is sopowerful.
You work with people for twoyears, you redesign their home,
you create a differentenvironment, you change the
quality of their lives, and thatis such a gift.
And I felt so purposeful in thatgift.
(23:59):
But then when I moved tocoaching and speaking and
writing, I was like, oh, but theaudience just got way bigger.
And the ability to help so manymore women find their way just
felt so much more aligned.
And so I kind of pivoted andfollowed that.
And you just keep following it.
(24:19):
I feel like as long as it'shitting your heart, yeah, you'll
you'll find it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:23):
And like I see the through line, right?
It's like you're helping peoplecultivate a sense of aliveness,
whether it's in their homes,right?
Home is root chakra for a lot ofpeople.
So when that feels good, then wecan blossom, right?
And then you're doing the samething through your coaching,
through your speaking, throughyour podcast.
Also, I totally see why you andLee Burgess are like same as
like from the design to themindset.
SPEAKER_01 (24:44):
Totally.
Also, we are you get us intodogs.
We want to have a sanctuary andsave all these animals.
I was like, I if you buy theland, I am in there.
Maybe I buy the land, you'rethere.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
Totally so aligned.
Oh my god, I love that.
Also, as soon as I sat down, Ilooked at your background and I
was like, how beautifullycurated.
Like it, it's such a ping.
It's such an obvious thing.
It's beautiful.
Thank you.
Yeah, and it and it's real,folks.
SPEAKER_01 (25:05):
Like that is actually, yeah, no, this is
actually my office.
SPEAKER_00 (25:08):
My first thought was like, anybody that picks
wallpaper is just amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
Oh, I love wallpaper.
I have wallpaper everywhere.
I have wallpaper on the ceilingin my bedroom.
So cool.
Why not?
We look up when we lay down,right?
Oh, and there's a home wellnessthing.
What's the first thing you lookat when you open your eyes?
And what is that telling yourbody about your own wellness and
just getting people to reallythink about themselves first in
their lives and how are theytalking to themselves?
What are they seeing?
What are their senses?
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Gorgeous.
Gorgeous.
Yes.
Yeah.
So thanks.
It was a great question.
Love that.
Okay.
Now you were asking me about thethree E's.
Okay.
So one of my um mentors is GayHendricks, or he's really
inspired my work.
He's such a wonderful thinker.
And he came up with the termzones of genius.
I came across his work nine or10 years ago.
(25:54):
And I was just so inspired bythis concept, this idea that we
each have a zone of genius thatwe're just off the charts
amazing around.
And then I sort of kind ofriffed on that and developed my
own version of it.
And really the idea that whenall of us is owning our zone of
genius, we're reallydemocratizing it.
And I think that's so importantbecause I think it's connected
to ambition, right?
We live in a world where wethink like only certain people
(26:17):
can be brilliant, only certainpeople can be genius.
And how that manifests inworkplaces is as the toxic
genius, right?
The one person that like hasreally great ideas but treats
people so badly, but we're like,we got to keep them around
because they're the idea factoryor they're the rainmaker, right?
But when we realize that eachand every one of us has genius,
and our job is to show up inthat and as a collaborative,
(26:38):
right?
And kind of bring together thefabric of our genius to shift
culture.
That's such an empowering thing.
So in the book, there's aframework called the three E's,
and it stands for exceptional,excellent, and eh.
So exceptional is where we'regenius, just off the charts,
amazing.
It's our innateness.
It doesn't mean we don't have towork at the thing, but it means
that there's a level ofinnateness there.
(26:59):
So it's like a child that cameto the planet as a musical
virtuoso, right?
There's natural aptitude, butthey hone the gift.
And then our excellence, andthis is where most of us spend
our lives, and that makes mesad, but also it's a form of
privilege to only live in ourgenius.
But our excellence is a spacethat we're practiced, polished,
and really proficient.
It's usually where we've clockedour 10,000 hours, what we've
(27:20):
gone to school for, what we'vemade other people a ton of money
for, right?
So my marketing career, probablyyour sales career.
Right.
And then there's the eh, thespace that we're average at,
average to below average.
Our brain just wasn't designedfor that space.
And the coolest, I love the ehspace.
A lot of people feel like, youknow, a little squeamish about
it, but I love it because whatit tells me is our brain was
(27:40):
really made for something andreally not made for something
else.
And there's so much power inreleasing that thing.
So you can step more into yourgenius and hand off the eh thing
that is somebody else's genius.
And so I think it can be soempowering to really understand
those three areas.
And you can even do that as ateam, you can do that as a
family.
And then the goal is to movecloser to spending as much time
(28:01):
in that zone of genius, thatzone of exceptional as possible
over our lifetimes.
SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
Which is so important.
And I saw the parallel as anentrepreneur because I think one
of the keys to success as anentrepreneur, and you can tell
me if you've had the sameexperience, is learning to let
go of the eh part and hire inthe eh.
SPEAKER_00 (28:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:21):
Like recognizing a team in corporate America works
best because the people in theteam provide different skill
sets that they bring to thetable.
And in my opinion, the mostpowerful leaders are the ones
that are not trying to be thebest at everything in the room.
They're the ones that are thebest at their best at their
genius, and they're really goodat finding the people that
complement them to raise theboat.
And that in corporate America isvery often the work we spend as
(28:44):
leaders, trying to build thoseteams.
But when you get to become anentrepreneur or a solopreneur,
it's like, oh my goodness, nowI'm like everybody on the boat
here.
And I am the entire team.
And I know for myself when Istarted my business, I was kind
of drowning because I couldn'tidentify the eh.
And I felt like I had to be goodat all of it.
If I'm going to be a successfulentrepreneur, that means I need
(29:05):
to be good at all these things.
And I wasn't willing until Ifailed a little bit to ask for
help.
Yes.
And that and recognize likeyou're good at what you do and
go and do that and shine as anentrepreneur and then let other
people help you in the ways thatyou're not.
And that's not failure.
No, that's super empowering.
Especially as a woman.
I feel like that's a tough oneas a woman, too.
SPEAKER_00 (29:26):
Yes.
I have clients that kind of fallinto two camps.
One, they sort of like struggleto hire out the eh, they know
what it is, but it's, you know,asking for help, that's a really
big thing.
Or they refuse to be eh atanything and they make
themselves excellent, even atthe eh areas.
And so then I have to pry itaway from their little hands and
be like, no, we're gonna work onthis thing.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
Yes, yes.
But you know what?
It's good to know that we're notalone.
There's so many of us thatstruggle with so many of these
things, and you do a really goodjob of that in your book of
making everyone feel.
So, what do you think is yourgenius, right?
Now.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
My genius is is really seeing other people's.
I feel really grateful.
And I think it's a sort of asummation of a couple of gifts
of like I'm very good atlistening and sort of ingesting
information, even what's notsaid.
And so then very quickly I cankind of put together what other
people's geniuses and how we canleverage that to for their
highest yield contribution.
Um yeah, I'll leave it at that.
(30:22):
And that's super powerful.
That's why people hire a coach.
They can't see what they can'tsee.
100%.
And I can't see that stuff formyself, which is why I'm always
being coached, right?
It's like the value of themirror.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
A hundred percent.
And I always say to everybody, Irecorded some videos for
Instagram just today.
Like, I have a coach.
Everyone needs a coach.
Don't think you're abovecoaching.
Like everyone needs a coachbecause we all need that mirror.
We need that reflection.
There's so much we don't seeabout ourselves.
And when the coach can make thatconnection for you, the aha
moment happens so much faster.
(30:53):
Then you can move forwardbecause someone else has pointed
out something that you innatelyknow you just can't necessarily
pull it out of yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Exactly.
What I always say to my clients,too.
I'm like, you could absolutelyget there alone, right?
But it's faster and moreenjoyable together.
SPEAKER_01 (31:07):
Of course.
Of course.
Yes.
Let's talk about contentment fora minute.
SPEAKER_00 (31:11):
Do it.
Yeah, this is an interestingconcept.
So I have a whole section of thebook that's about ambition and
contentment.
And it's so funny because when Ibring this up or when other
people will bring this up,there's almost like this short
circuiting moment where they'relike, how could ambition and
contentment sit side by side,right?
Because ambition is about more,right?
Yes.
But in our redefinition of it,we can see how they sit side by
(31:32):
side.
So contentment from Easterntraditions loosely translates
into English as unconditionalwholeness or the knowledge of
enough.
So it's this idea, regardless ofwhat's happening around me, I
have this internal stability,this unconditional wholeness,
this knowledge of enough that Iam enough.
So regardless of theachievements and the accolades,
I am stable, I'm good.
It doesn't mean that I don'twant more.
(31:54):
It doesn't mean that I don'twant to keep growing, right?
It's not about actually restingon our laurels.
It's about being good and stableas we express that desire for
more growth.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
So growth is not a negative thing.
Not at all, right?
Again.
It's almost a peace.
It is.
It's almost an acceptance ofthat.
You're not letting that driveyour life.
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Exactly, right?
Because with the core wounds,when we're living from them,
it's this desire for more andlike it's never enough.
And we don't know why it's neverenough.
But once you've addressed thecore wounds, we can have more of
that unconditional wholeness,that knowledge of enough.
We're coming from that morestable place.
And in the book, yes, we talkedabout growth being a part of it.
I talk about how, you know, alot of us think ambition is more
for more's sake all the time.
(32:38):
The more money, the more power.
But I think ambition goes incycles, like a perennial flower.
So there's this seedling ofdesire.
I want to grow.
And we nurture that inner andouter environment.
And we have this beautifulgrowth period in the sun.
And then the seasons change andthe petals fall off and we wind
down and go back underground.
And maybe that ground is fallowuntil it's nurtured enough that
we can rise again.
So growth is part of it, rest ispart of it, recovery is part of
(33:02):
it, contentment is part of it.
It's not just about the stretchall the time.
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
Right.
Which is important too, becauseyou need the rest.
You need the down, you need thepeace, you need the calm.
It can't be you know, painfulambition, as you describe it,
makes me think like I startedthis off by saying as I was
reading your book, and I canvision you and going to the
client and driving from the cityand rushing.
And I was like, ha ha ha ha ha.
I can feel the anxiety.
I feel my shoulders dry as Ifeel the anxiety and the stress
(33:28):
of that life because therewasn't any peace and there
wasn't any calm and there wasn'tany rest in that cycle.
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
No, and there was no awareness of myself, right?
No awareness of my pain and mywounds, and no awareness of
anything really.
SPEAKER_01 (33:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
What did you learn the most about yourself while
writing the book?
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
I think that's something that's so important is
that we're always becomingbecause I think sometimes we can
see a framework like this andweaponize it against ourselves
of like, oh, I'm naughty.
I fell into painful ambitionagain, right?
I think we're always kind ofjockeying back and forth,
especially when we have a nextlevel of becoming.
So what I noticed about myselfwas so I have a betrayal wound.
(34:04):
So control was coming up a lot.
And this is a process that isreal out of control, right?
I mean, there's so few things inour life that we can actually
control, right?
Maybe the color of our hair, thecolor of the car we choose,
whatever.
Even so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you can't control a processlike this.
I actually think it's a deeplyspiritual assignment, but I
noticed that my desire forcontrol was coming up a lot.
So I just had to sit with myinner child and be like, where
(34:27):
do you feel like you can't trustfolks, right?
Where you're gonna feel likeyou're gonna be let down.
What do you need, inner child,so that you can release control
and show up more fully?
And it was just a constantexercise for me.
And it was kind of funny.
I was like, I'm writing the bookon the ambition trap.
I'm almost falling in every day.
And I just have to keep watchingit and doing my tools, you know.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (34:48):
Like, I am the same thing happened to me when I
wrote my book.
I was like, I talk about findingyour best self.
And I went through a phase whereI was like suffering from
depression and I'll be in thecar, just crying.
Yeah.
And I was like, how can I bewriting a book about living my
best life and finding my bestself when here I am in the car
crying for no apparent reasonbecause I'd like slipped into
(35:11):
the state of depression.
And so even for all of us, itebbs and it flows.
And sometimes we are the peoplethat we look to coach and help
because we are we are them atcertain points in time.
We haven't figured it all out.
It's a journey.
SPEAKER_00 (35:25):
And I think that's what makes us great teachers,
right?
It's like if you have known thestruggle and had a front row
seat to the struggle, it's likethen you're called to share on
this thing as you learn the nextstep, right?
None of us has all the answers,but if we're one or two steps
ahead and we can impart somewisdom, great, let's soften the
learning curve for folks.
Yes.
So, what has it been like topromote the book?
(35:46):
What a beautiful question.
It's been so many.
It's like my brain like pingedin about 65 different
directions.
It's been so many things.
So, as a former marketer, youknow, I put together my
marketing plan and I startedtaking action on that last
November.
So my book came out May 13th.
And a big part of my strategywas I wanted to, I work with a
lot of ERGs, employee resourcegroups, because I'm an executive
(36:08):
and leadership coach.
And so I thought, okay, I'lljust go to all these ERGs and
they'll buy a hundred of mybooks.
I'll hit my numbers.
Off she sails into the sunset.
And then at the beginning of theyear with the executive orders,
there was a lot of dismantlingof the ERGs.
And so so many of them could notbuy my books.
But so that whole strategy likewent poof.
And so I was like, okay, she'sgot to find another way, right?
(36:31):
And that was a reallyinteresting mindset moment for
me because there was a momentwhere I was like, I could really
make myself the victim here andbe like, well, that didn't work.
And, you know, but I was like, Irefuse.
I put my soul into this book.
It will have its moment in thesun.
I will find another strategy.
So yeah, I took more of acommunity-based approach and
it's been so lovely.
So as a result of that, from Mayto end of June, I lined up about
(36:54):
25 different community eventsand talks.
And it nourished me more thananything.
Like as a chronic illness girly,I was a little worried.
I was like, am I gonna have theenergy for this?
Like to be in at 25 differentevents back to back across the
country.
How's this gonna go?
But because, and I wonder if youhad this experience too, when
you're writing the book, you'rekind of by yourself.
(37:14):
You know, they're in a bit of atower where you're not getting
much feedback.
And then finally the book wasout in the world and I was
getting feedback and itnourished me so much.
So, all of this to say, likelife, the journey's been a bit
up and down, but the feelingthat I'm left with is just like
the most nourishment and love.
I do feel like an experience oflove.
SPEAKER_01 (37:34):
And I am sure you have met people that have
touched your heart, and you'relike, wow, I wouldn't have met
them without the book.
SPEAKER_00 (37:42):
Oh my gosh, a hundred percent.
And just the questions that theyask, you know, questions I
hadn't thought about.
I mean, I thought about a littlebit, but one of the questions I
get over and over again is youknow, as a parent, I really want
to prevent my child from fallingin the ambition trap or coming
from painful ambition.
And how do I do that?
And that just every time makesme so delighted that there's all
these parents wanting to chart abetter course for future
(38:03):
generations.
And yeah, it's just reallybeautiful to hear those
questions and be in those rooms.
SPEAKER_01 (38:07):
That is so amazing.
All right.
So you have Maria Shriverquoting the big on the front of
your book about it.
And like she's like the, I thinkwe call it the forward.
She's not the introduction,she's the foreword of the book.
Okay, can we just talk for onesecond?
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
What's that like?
She is just queen, total star.
Yeah, I mean, like, right, she'ssuch goals in how she moves
through the world and how shecarries herself and how she
amplifies voices.
Like, she to me is justabsolutely magical.
And it's still a pinch memoment.
It's like, I can't believe thatMaria Shriver knows my work,
(38:42):
likes my work, promotes my work.
At one point, she did a videoand was like, My friend Amina.
And I was like, Oh my god, arewe friends?
Like, like, okay, cool.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (38:52):
She's incredible.
It was definitely amazing.
She is so aspirational and justsuch an incredible entrepreneur
and wellness and does so manygood things for society.
To even have that person endorsewhat is your baby and your body
of work and your vision and yourplatform and your way of living
(39:13):
is like, whoa.
SPEAKER_00 (39:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
Whoa.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
It's really, it's a pinching moment.
It makes me kind of shy.
I'm like, I can't believe it.
Um, I I feel really blessed andreally lucky.
She is just goals in the worldand doing such beautiful things.
And I can't think of a betterrole model to endorse the work.
It's amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (39:31):
But it's also good, it also helps other people
because it shows, you know, notto say that you're not a nobody.
You're you're not a nobody,you're a somebody in the world,
right?
But someone like you who has apassion, has a purpose, writes a
book that like truly comes fromthe heart, you have real value
to help women.
You are on such a purpose-drivenmission that you can navigate
(39:55):
your way to get there and to getyour voice out and have it be
seen by Maria Schreiber.
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
Thank you.
I think that's such a beautifulreminder for people listening,
right?
It's like when you are deeply inservice, when you're committed
to the work, when you care aboutintegrity, people will notice.
And so, you know, it'sinteresting because I see people
sort of referencing my workwithout attribution and things
like that, but it doesn't makeme upset because I'm just used,
people feel the differenceintegrity versus lack of
(40:21):
integrity.
And people will always noticewhen you're in integrity.
SPEAKER_01 (40:24):
Always.
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
Yes.
And when you're being vulnerableand coming from the heart, which
you are in your book as well.
You share your stories.
So, what is on your bucket listhere?
What else do you want to do,personally or professionally?
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
Well, you know, it's so funny with you just
reflecting back, just what astar Maria Shriver is and what
she does with all of herresources, it just kind of lit
this spark in me where I waslike, I want to be more
resourced so that I can do morethings like Maria Shriver.
Like, I want to be donating moremoney to research.
I want to be, you know, more ofthe multi-hyphenate.
And so you just ignited a bit ofa spark, actually.
(40:59):
And you know, if you would askme this question last week,
because a lot of people havebeen asking me, like, what's
next?
And I'm like, oh, I'm in theunderground phrase phase of my
ambition, right?
I just, I just birthed the wholething.
Like I had a peak, right?
So I'm back underground resting.
But what you just asked me andwhat you just reflected, I'm
like, oh, more of that.
SPEAKER_01 (41:16):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (41:18):
And I can see that for you.
You have incredible energy andlight.
And you too, sister.
It's so wonderful to want togive back and help.
And and I don't want to excludemen in all of this because the
ambition job applies to men.
But your book for women needhelp.
And I don't always like womenjust need help.
And you started out your booktalking about that, talking
about what happens incorporations, how women's lights
(41:40):
get pushed down, like womenwomen that are of diversity, but
like women need help.
And so I think being a light tohelp raise women in any capacity
is really important, not toexclude you men in the world,
but I think women need help.
Thank you so much.
So thank you for that.
All right, so I've taken so muchof your time.
I have two last questions.
One is there anything that Ididn't ask you that you want to
(42:04):
make sure you communicate aboutyour book, your work, yourself,
your business?
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
I feel like we, I mean, maybe it's worth putting
like a period on the end of thesentence about, you know, in the
book, I'm not asking anybody tobe less ambitious or to renounce
their ambition.
You know, the the title is a bitof a bait and switch, right?
We're saying, oh, ambition's atrap, right?
Well, the way that we know it isa trap.
And what I want people to do issort of find their harmonious
relationship with ambition.
(42:28):
So I'm never asking anybody tobe less ambitious or to renounce
their ambition.
I'm inviting them to be in theright relationship with it.
So I think that's just a periodI want to put on the end of the
sentence.
Perfect.
I will leave it at that.
SPEAKER_01 (42:40):
All right, my last question.
Book.
I ask all my guests to recommenda book that has impacted them
personally or professionally,that has changed their lives
that they think the listenersshould read, other than your
own, which will be linked in theshow notes along with everywhere
to find you and get you andfollow you and all those things.
What book would book or books?
Many people can't do one.
SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
I'm so glad that you said that because like two
popped up and I was like, how doI choose?
Um thankfully, you already hadLee Burgess on the podcast.
Otherwise, I would haverecommended her book.
But two new ones that just cameout.
So Minda Hart's new book calledTalk to Me Nice.
That's about love languages atthe workplace and how we can
better communicate with eachother.
She's amazing.
Ooh, I like that.
Yes.
And then Amber Ray, who is like,you know, Instagram famous
(43:23):
thought leader, comes up withall this beautiful poetry and is
big on journaling, has a newbook out called Lovable.
And I loved this book because itwas about I'm someone who uh got
divorced in the last couple ofyears.
And it was about how she madethis really hard decision to
leave this marriage that lookedgreat on paper but was not true
to her soul, and then ends upfinding the love of her life.
(43:45):
And it's not just aboutrelationships, because I think
sometimes you can getpigeonholed in that context.
It's about choosing yourself,whether it's at work, in
friendship or relationships.
And it's so vulnerable.
So I highly recommend.
SPEAKER_01 (43:57):
Yes.
And she was a guest on yourpodcast.
Yes.
That launched, I think thisweek, last week, the very like
one or the other.
You're so good at your research.
She was just a guest on yourshow, right?
Because when you mentioned hername, I was like, oh, I know
that.
I know that woman.
Yes, yes, yes.
But that is also such animportant book and such an
important topic.
And I do have lots of gueststhat talk about, in fact, we had
one earlier this morning thattalked about divorce and
(44:19):
learning to love you.
It's not just about the divorce,it's anywhere in life.
And I think it aligns with somuch of what you talk about in
your book, right?
Finding you, learning to loveyou, and learning to find your
positive traits, learning tofind your contentment, learning
to find the vocabulary.
Which is one last comment,everybody.
I feel like your book did anexcellent job giving people
(44:40):
vocabulary to describe emotions,to describe a process that they
might not have and might not befamiliar with, and a reframing
way to look at some words thatmight be used in a different
context.
So I'm gonna leave it at that.
SPEAKER_00 (44:54):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for that beautifulreflection.
Thank you for having me.
And thank you, everyone, so muchfor listening.
SPEAKER_01 (45:00):
Absolutely.
I'm gonna, it's such a pleasure,truly.
It's an honor.
Your book is a gift.
Everybody, Ambition Trap.
I'm gonna link it in the shownotes.
And I thank you and I willfollow you.
I look forward to stayingconnected, and I hope you have a
beautiful rest of your day.
You too.
Thank you for joining us foranother episode of the House of
Germard Podcast, where wellnessstarts within.
(45:22):
We appreciate you being a partof our community and hope you
felt inspired and motivated byour guest.
If you enjoyed this episode,please write us a review and
share it with friends.
Building our reach on YouTubeand Apple Podcasts will help us
get closer to our mission toempower one million women to
live all in.
You can also follow us onInstagram at House of Germar and
(45:44):
sign up to be a part of ourmonthly inspiration newsletter
through our website,houseofgermar.com.
If you or someone you know wouldbe a good guest on the show,
please reach out to us atpodcast at houseofger.com.
This has been the House ofGermar Production with your
host, Gene Collins.
Thank you for joining our house.
At its root, I think ambition is neutral and natural.
It's simply a desire for morelife, a wish to unfold.
That's how I define it.
And if you define it that way,when you think about it, that's
inherent in every living thingon the planet, right?
From our plant babies to ourhuman babies, all of ourselves
have this desire for more life.
So how could that be bad orwrong?
But we live in a world wheresome folks experience an
(00:21):
ambition penalty.
So if you're a woman, a personof color, a queer person, a
person with a disability, ourambition is often seen as a
detractor.
So the research was done in thegender binary, but they found
that ambitious men and womenenter the workforce with the
same levels of ambition.
And then men are rewarded fortheirs.
Women, it's seen as a detractor.
(00:41):
So then we water it down, right?
And so there was so muchcomplexity around this word.
And I wanted to level set it,redefine it, and show another
way to be in relationship withit.
Because I think so much of whatwe've seen around ambition has
been really dysfunctional.
Like if we look at all thetropes and in the media and even
in movies and things like that,we see a lot of sort of this
voracious desire to succeed andthe cost of that.
(01:04):
But I believe that there's a wayto be ambitious and it to be a
really nutritive, generative,beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
Welcome to the House of German podcast, where
wellness starts within.
The House of German is alifestyle brand empowering women
to live all in through materialdesign and personal wellness.
We are a destination for womenready to reimagine what is
possible in their homes andlives and then create it.
(01:32):
We are honored to have you joinus on our mission to empower one
million women to live all in.
I am your host, Gene Collins,and I invite you to become
inspired by this week's guest.
Welcome to the House of Germarpodcast.
I'm Gene Collins, and today'sguest is an honor.
I have to tell you, this womanis so amazing.
(01:55):
Amina Altai.
She is the author of TheAmbition Trap.
And I am so excited because oneof the things I do on all my
shows, as you know, if youfollow me, is I always ask my
guests to recommend a book thathas impacted them either
personally or professionally.
And her book was recommended tome by one of my guests, and I
had never heard of it.
And so I went and I bought herbook and I started reading.
(02:16):
And then we got connected.
And her book is amazing.
I'm going to show it to thepeople for YouTube, The Ambition
Trap.
Folks, this is a great one.
And Amina, your story is soinspiring.
Your book is amazing.
And I am so excited to dig in.
So welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (02:29):
I'm delighted.
Oh, it's a pleasure.
And we are both doing the bigheadphones today.
We are rocking the bigger.
We're like, yeah, don't mind thenerdy look, but it is what is
working today.
So we can actually hearourselves and the sound will
come out the best.
So, you know, this is notexactly the glam look, but but
it's the best for recording.
So I thank you.
(02:50):
Okay.
You have a book.
But before we talk about yourbook, there was a journey to the
book, which I think is reallyimportant for people.
Would you mind sharing yourjourney at a high level that got
you to even be an entrepreneur,a coach, all the things that you
are now?
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Yes.
So I'll take you back to theorigin story.
I started my career in marketingand brand management, and I
loved it in the beginning.
And I'm the child of immigrantsand was taught to kind of, you
know, keep your head down, workreally hard, have the great
on-paper life.
Everything will be great.
But six years into my marketingcareer, I was so boundaryless
(03:28):
and codependent and not takingcare of myself and overworking
that I burned out and Ideveloped two autoimmune
diseases.
And I'm telling it in thesynthesized, sanitized version.
It actually happened in a verydramatic fashion where I was
driving to a client for aregular Friday meeting, and I
get a call from my doctor, andshe says, Amina, if you don't go
(03:51):
to the hospital now instead ofgoing to your client, you will
be days away from multiple organfailure.
And so that was my stop momentbecause what 28-year-old gets a
call like that, right?
And so that was the moment thatI was like, wow, okay, I really
have to radically reimagine mylife and my relationships to
success and all the things.
And from there, I went on my eatpray love year to kind of learn
(04:12):
all these different modalitiesto feel better in my own life.
And I studied everything fromcoaching to nutrition to
mindfulness to somatics.
And at the end of a several yearjourney, I was just like, I need
to teach other people thisbecause this work has saved my
life.
And long story short, I've beenan executive coach now for the
last 10 years.
And, you know, hindsight is2020.
And I feel so lucky to have hadthat moment so that I could be
(04:35):
here right now.
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
And by the way, folks, when you read her book,
she does give all kinds ofdetails.
And as I was reading her book, Iwas like, oh my goodness, what
it's it's wild.
Because you don't, I was like,obviously, you're still alive.
So I know it had a happy ending.
You're still alive.
But as you're reading it, I'mlike, oh my goodness.
And I personally, as beingsomeone who came from the
marketing and advertising world,came from corporate America,
(04:58):
came from that fast-paced life.
I was like, I feel you.
Like I know what I know whatit's like to have that run and
that rush and that client andthat working 80 hours a week.
Like I was like, it took meright back there the way you
describe it in your book.
And I think so many women canrelate.
And so much of your book isabout that and ambition.
(05:19):
So before we get into your book,how did you decide you even
wanted to write a book in thefirst place?
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
It was something that I knew that I always wanted
to do, especially since I becamea coach.
And it was really interestingbecause in 2019, I was working
on an entirely different bookproposal and I had an entirely
different agent.
And then in March of 2020, atthe beginning of the pandemic,
my agent calls and says, Hey,Amina, I can't take a risk on a
new author.
This book, you know, won't cometo be.
(05:46):
This is where we part ways.
And I remember being sodevastated and crying for like
three days.
But at the end of those threedays of tears, I remember having
this moment where I just knew soclearly, I was like, the work is
still becoming.
It's not what it's supposed tobe yet.
There will be a book, just thework is still maturing.
And I was right.
And it was really instrumentalbecause in 2020, at the height
(06:08):
of the social justice uprisings,I ended up coaching a handful of
celebrity girl bosses who werecanceled.
And I very clearly state that mybook is not about cancel
culture.
That's a whole other thing.
But it really sort of elucidateda lot of the patterns around
ambition that I'd seen in mylife and my clients' lives.
And it was just happening inthis sort of boiling point,
pressure point moment.
And so I just put together thisframework on ambition.
(06:30):
And then for two years, I wasjust teaching it behind the
scenes to my clients.
And then one client looks at mein 2022 and says, Where's your
book?
You need a book.
And I was like, So funny, youshould ask.
I don't have one.
And then she was like, a dearfriend of mine that used to be a
Buddhist meditation teacher justbecame an agent.
I feel like the two of you willbe obsessed with each other.
She was right.
We like, we met, we hit it off,we worked on the proposal
(06:52):
together, we took it to market,we sold the book in the first
week.
And I share this story because Ithink it's so important.
When the timing isn't right, youpush, you force, it doesn't
unfold.
When the timing is right, whenthe work is where it's supposed
to be, it flows.
And so I think it's just a sucha great example of that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Oh, a perfect example of that.
And so many of us, especially inthe entrepreneur space, we've
been there.
We have these ideas, and we justwant with like our whole heart
and soul for it to take off.
And then it doesn't.
And learning to let go as anentrepreneur and as a spiritual
person, learning to let go andjust trust the universe, God,
(07:29):
whatever you want to call it.
Just trusting that process is sohard.
It's all hard for me.
So, like to me, that's thehardest part of this all
manifesting and creating yourlife.
Right.
So hard to just let go.
So I love to hear stories likeyours that just remind us there
is a reason behind everythingthat we do.
Yes.
And we may not know it now, butit's always revealed.
(07:52):
Yes, always.
How long did it take you fromthe time that you sold your book
until it went out to market?
SPEAKER_00 (07:58):
Oh, almost three years.
So I started working on the newproposal in May of 2022.
And I didn't finish the proposaluntil August.
And then we we really chose totake the book to market in
September because it's kind of asort of a slow period in
publishing over the summer.
So we took it to market rightafter Labor Day.
It sold the beginning ofSeptember.
(08:18):
And then I officially startedwriting in November.
And then the book came out May13, 2025.
So two and a half years of realrigorous writing, but three
years in the process.
Which is also a reminder topeople.
You have to be patient.
So patient.
And you know, I remember sayingto my agent and my editor when
they gave me the timeline forpublication, I was like, Oh, I
(08:38):
could do this in a year.
You sure you don't want to moveit up?
And they were like, no, no, wecould.
And they're like, don't worry,there's a long queue and all the
things.
And I am so grateful now that Ihad that extra time because I
needed it.
Like, first of all, as afirst-time author, I did not
know how to write a book.
Yes.
Right.
I I've written so much, youknow, short form content, white
papers, blog posts, all thethings.
One of the things my editoralways says to me is like,
nobody knows how to write a bookbecause every book is different.
(09:00):
But I really didn't know how towrite a book.
And so you have to learn that inthe process.
It's not just about puttingforth your thought leadership
and your teachings, but you'relearning a whole new way of
communicating.
So I needed that time.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
You do.
And you need the time to findyour voice within your book.
And so your book, you have to gobuy her book because you have
stories, you have examples, youhave examples from clients, you
have actual exercises, and youhave chapter summaries, which I
just have to tell you forsomeone like myself, I do not
consider myself ADHD and I loveto read, but nothing is better
(09:34):
than a chapter summary whenyou're talking about personal
growth.
So kudos to you.
Cause it doesn't always startout that way that this is the
format.
SPEAKER_00 (09:42):
The chapter summary is incredible.
Thank you.
I'm I I needed that too, right?
I like to put the period on theend of the sentence.
And so just to be like, wait,what did I learn?
So that's how my brain works aswell.
I'm glad it resonated.
SPEAKER_01 (09:54):
Oh, it so did.
And it's so practical.
Nothing's better than apractical book with examples.
SPEAKER_00 (09:59):
Yes.
I'm curious how you felt.
But one of the things for me islike as a coach, right?
I think, and I coach a lot oflike highly ambitious, highly
successful women, and we live somuch in our heads and we can
intellectualize things so much.
And so it was very important tome that the book was filled with
exercises so we could take itfrom the head and really embody
it.
And so then it becomes this newneural pathway that's just a
default setting for us versus anidea that we've just let stay in
(10:22):
the intellectual realm.
Correct.
SPEAKER_01 (10:24):
And you talk about mindset, you talk about how does
your body feel, you talk aboutso many things.
We'll talk about this later.
You talk about happiness versuscontentment, like things that
really make you go inward.
It's not just here are yourpractical steps.
And by the way, here isambition.
And where do you fall on theside of ambition?
Are you in the painful ambitionpart or are you in the
(10:46):
purposeful ambitious part?
Like, where are you?
Yeah.
So ambition.
And what's so ironic about thisis when your book came to me,
which is why I believe like theuniverse is everything.
They're speaking all the time.
If you just be quiet and listen,so when I was told about your
book by Lee Burgess, one of ourguests, the day before I had
been at dinner with a girlfriendand we had a debate about the
(11:09):
word ambition.
Oh, when she told me about yourbook, and this woman is, you
know, we were both executives.
I worked for her for years.
She worked in corporate Americafor 35 years, you know, ran a
team, like huge executive.
And we had a whole debate aboutthe word ambition.
I'm a meaning of ambition.
And she went on to like stake inthe ground.
(11:30):
It's a negative term, on and onand on.
And I'm letting her go and goand go.
And I was like, you do know thatthat word is in my target
audience definition.
Like, my target audiencedefinition is that I help
ambitious women at a crossroads.
And I was like, so I don't lookat it like it's a negative word.
Yeah.
And we had this whole debate.
And then I heard about yourbook.
(11:50):
And I was like, this is perfect.
I am meant to read your book tounderstand more.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
I love this.
Can we?
I mean, like, want to send hermy book.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
I'm like, can I get an email address just you know
over a little audio book to her?
It's so I was like, it's such aninteresting content because I
had never thought before I hadthis debate with her.
I was like, what do you mean,ambition?
And I'm like, you are a highpower female executive.
You you don't think ambition isgood.
How do you think you got towhere you are?
Yes.
(12:20):
Yes.
So so big.
All right.
So so many questions about you.
Can we start with this conceptthat ambition is neutral and
natural?
SPEAKER_00 (12:30):
Yes.
So, like you, a lot of folkseither feel that ambition is a
negative thing and a drawback,or it's a positive thing.
And when I was socializing thebook, people kind of inevitably
fell into two camps.
Camp A was I'm really ambitious,but then ambition has been
expensive, and that was mystory.
Or camp B was, I've seen thisreally negative experience of
(12:50):
ambition.
So I renounce it altogether, Ireject it.
And I think another way it'spossible and necessary.
So at its root, I think ambitionis neutral and natural.
It's simply a desire for morelife, a wish to unfold.
That's how I define it.
And if you define it that way,when you think about it, that's
inherent in every living thingon the planet, right?
From our plant babies to ourhuman babies, all of our cells
(13:11):
have this desire for more life.
So how could that be bad orwrong?
But we live in a world wheresome folks experience an
ambition penalty.
So if you're a woman, a personof color, a queer person, a
person with a disability, ourambition is often seen as a
detractor.
So the research was done in thegender binary, but they found
that ambitious men and womenenter the workforce with the
(13:33):
same levels of ambition.
And then men are rewarded fortheirs.
Women, it's seen as a detractor.
So then we water it down, right?
And so there was so muchcomplexity around this word.
And I wanted to level set it,redefine it, and show another
way to be in relationship withit.
Because I think so much of whatwe've seen around ambition has
been really dysfunctional.
Like if we look at all thetropes and in the media and even
(13:55):
in movies and things like that,we see a lot of sort of this
voracious desire to succeed andthe cost of that.
But I believe that there's a wayto be ambitious and it to be a
really nutritive, generative,beautiful thing.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (14:09):
Which is so true.
And then you define differenttypes of ambition.
We have painful ambition and wehave purposeful ambition.
Yes.
Talk about those two.
Because painful ambition, I waslike, oh, I I can totally relate
to that.
Yeah.
But I hadn't really thought ofpurposeful ambition the way that
you frame it up.
SPEAKER_00 (14:27):
Yes.
So though I think ambition isneutral and natural, there's two
orientations for our ambition.
So the first one is painfulambition.
So that's when our ambition isdriven by a core wound.
So there are five core wounds,and let me tell you all about
them.
So there's rejection,abandonment, humiliation,
betrayal, and injustice.
And core wounds are a very humanrite of passage.
(14:48):
It's like the initial injury ofthe psyche that happens in our
formative years.
And sometimes it happens in ourfamilies, even if you have the
most amazing parents.
Sometimes it happens on theplayground or vicariously
through watching other folks.
So we all have these initialinjuries of the psyche.
One of mine is rejection, theother is betrayal.
And as a result of those wounds,we wear a corresponding mask.
(15:08):
So if you have a rejectionwound, the mask you wear is
avoidance.
If you have a betrayal wound,the mask you wears control.
And most of us build ourambition upon those core wounds
and masks.
And that's painful ambitionbecause we're seeking everything
outside of ourselves to heal awound that is actually on the
inside.
And there's so many examples ofthis in the media.
Like one example that I talkabout in the book because it was
(15:30):
so present when I was writingthe book was Sam Bankman-Fried
and the infamous FTX scandal.
Do you remember this?
Yeah.
Yep.
It's a wild story to me.
It's wild for so many reasons.
So Sam Bankman-Fried was hailedthe boy wonder of crypto because
he amassed wealth nearly fasterthan anybody in history.
And he raised a ton of venturemoney.
Sequoia was like a big backerfor him.
(15:52):
And I remember this story soclearly because he was in this
pitch meeting with SequoiaCapital, which is like a really
illustrious venture fund to be,you know, a part of.
Oh, yeah.
And he's in the, he's in themeeting and he's playing League
of Legends.
And I just remember reading thisarticle being like, if any woman
rolled up to that room andplayed League of Legends, do you
think that we would get ourslice of the 2.7% of VC funding?
(16:12):
No way, right?
But they were super impressedwith his irreverence.
So they were like, here's acheck.
Anyway, he builds this businesson risky trading practices that
aren't exactly legal in the US.
Eventually, you know, peoplecatch wind of the fact that he's
siphoning consumer funds forpersonal use, files for
bankruptcy, ends up in jail, thewhole thing.
And at the end of the day, he'slost$1.7 billion in venture
(16:34):
funding and$8.6 billion ofconsumer funds.
Right.
And I think it's such a classicexample of painful ambition,
right?
So much pain on the inside thatwe're trying to amass more and
more and more and more.
And then ultimately there's thiscrash and burn.
So, anyway, long story short,that's painful ambition.
And purposeful ambition is whenour ambition, when we've looked
(16:54):
at those core wounds, we're nolonger coming from that place.
And instead, it's connected toour purpose, to our deeper why,
to our truth.
Yes, which is important.
SPEAKER_01 (17:02):
And you also talk about passion and purpose, which
was something I had actuallynever thought about because I am
where I am today, because I hada coach who challenged me to be
like, what are you passionateabout?
And I was like, I have nointerests.
Like, I am a single mom and avice president of sales, and I
am so boring, and I don't haveany passions.
(17:24):
And so it was sort of, well, youknow, you're about to turn 50.
No time like the present to findsome passions here.
And now I feel like I have somany passions and so many
interests, I have a hard timekeeping myself like in the
guardrails of life.
But you made me really thinkabout something really
interesting where you talkedabout passion versus purpose.
So I would love you to talkabout that.
(17:45):
And how did that kind of showup, whether it was in your
coaching or your own life, thatyou noticed the difference
between the two?
SPEAKER_00 (17:52):
Yes.
And I love that you're such apassionate person because it
points to aliveness, right?
I love that you're like theguardrails are like all over the
place.
But that's a beautiful thingbecause you're so alive.
So there's a distinction betweenpassion and purpose, but a lot
of the times, especially in thecoaching space, those things are
conflated, right?
They're like, find your passionand purpose as if it's one
thing.
So actually, passion by natureis fickle.
(18:14):
It is meant to change.
It's not stable, right?
Like, and I saw this in my ownlife.
I am the consummatemulti-hyphenate.
Like I am what they call ageriatric millennial, you know,
one of one of the first years ofmillennial.
And I think true to mymillennial nature, I am the
multi-hyphenate.
But I noticed throughout my lifeI was so passionate about all
these different things, right?
At one point, I went tonutrition school, business
background, goes to nutritionschool, was a spin teacher for a
(18:37):
little bit on the side.
Like I'm just a I get passionateabout all these different
things, but it's constantlychanging because it's supposed
to.
They're meant to be these sparksof light and joy and these like
ignition points for moments inour lives, but it's not stable.
We're not meant to anchor to it.
Purpose, however, is that morestable piece, right?
So, purpose, I love thedefinition from Stephen Cope
(18:59):
that it's to bring forth thebest that is within you.
And it's a bit more of a NorthStar, right?
It's not a singular North Star.
In the book, I talk about theconstellation of purpose because
I think the idea of one singularNorth Star is super tricky.
But those things work hand inhand, right?
So though we might be passionateabout these certain things, and
those could be breadcrumbs forour purpose, which is bringing
forth the best that is withinus, we don't want to anchor to
(19:21):
the passion because it is goingto change all the time.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (19:25):
And I love that you talked about, and you just did
it and it's in your book too,that purpose can evolve and
move.
Because I feel I know for myselfwhen I got fired from my job and
like had to figure out who inthe world I was and had no
passions, had no interests,definitely had no purpose, had
no sense of self.
The task of figuring out mypurpose is so overwhelming that
(19:48):
for most people it is the stopsign of life, like right there
because it's so daunting.
It is.
And I often talk to people andwhen I interview people that
have been in similar situations,we talk about how your purpose
is just like the journey.
It can evolve and grow, and itdoesn't diminish the value of
your purpose at that point intime.
(20:09):
Yeah.
Thinking like I am one purpose,one being, one thing.
And if I don't figure out thatone reason why I'm on the planet
and living right now, I'm notdoing anything good.
And so I love that youreiterated that in your book and
you just did it here.
Yeah.
Which is important.
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
I'm so with you, right?
I feel like sometimes we put somuch pressure on ourselves to
figure out this singular thingthat's gonna fit us for a
lifetime.
But as humans, we'reevolutionary beings, we're
always evolving.
And there's through lines,right?
Like in my marketing career, Iworked a lot in the wellness
space.
I care about growth anddevelopment, which is a through
line for coaching, right?
But you can see the evolution ofmy career.
It's not been this like staticthing.
(20:46):
And so I think sometimes,though, there's a beautiful
magic thread.
It doesn't have to be stable.
SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
No, it can evolve and grow.
Yeah.
And if someone asks you, wheredo you feel you are on your
purpose right now for youpersonally?
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
It almost sounds trite to say it.
So sometimes I feel bad, butyeah, I think that's uh probably
a little mindset thing I need toget over.
I feel very squarely in mydharma.
I do feel like I am here doingwhat I'm supposed to do, that
I'm in my gifts.
It doesn't mean that there's notgrowth edges for me.
And it doesn't mean that there'snot places where I can get
deeper on the court with mygifts.
That's absolutely true.
But I really do feel like I'mserving in the way that I'm
(21:22):
supposed to serve.
SPEAKER_01 (21:23):
And that's beautiful.
All right, so you mentioned theword gifts, and that makes me
think about something else inyour book, which talked about
like I might not get this right,but it's like your gifts of
excellence, right?
Or understanding like your coregenius, let's say.
And you have what you call thethree E's with an exercise that
goes with the three E's, by theway.
So you all have to read the bookto do the exercise.
(21:44):
But can you talk about thatthree E's?
Because I felt like youexplained that really well to
give some perspective on tryingto understand where your
strengths are.
SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
Thank you.
And maybe we can go back tothis, but I'm super curious.
I want to hear about yourpurpose.
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (21:59):
Yeah.
I want to I want to hear howyou're feeling at it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
Yeah.
Well, I'll answer that before wetalk about the E's for you.
So I have to say, what's soironic from our purpose
perspective?
So smidge of background, Iworked in corporate America 22
years, advertising sales, ran asales team, got fired January
2020, was a single mom.
I've been a single mom mydaughter's entire life.
I got divorced when I was sixmonths pregnant.
Was a single mom, vice presidentof sales, and that was all I
(22:24):
did.
And then I got fired, and it wasright before COVID and right
before I turned 50.
And talk about a stop signmoment.
I had no idea who I was.
SPEAKER_00 (22:31):
Yeah, that's a second Saturn return, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
Yeah, like no idea.
And I worked with a coach and wekind of was like, Well, I I
don't really have any passions,but I have one thing that
interests me.
I bought a house and done thisconstruction, and I was like, So
this house thing is like, I'minterested in this the design,
the house, construction,buildings, home.
Like, this is kind of cool.
I was like, maybe I'll become areal estate agent.
And then I quickly was like, no,I'm not doing that.
There are too many of those.
So I decided I loved interiordesign.
(22:54):
And so I dove two feet intointerior design, started my own
business, went back to school.
And I felt like that was mypurpose.
Like, my purpose is to designbeautiful spaces to help people
feel better about theirenvironments, to then in turn
help them about themselves.
My platform was all aboutwellness within.
And it really felt like mypurpose until I wrote a book,
(23:14):
until I started podcasting,until I started getting back
into speaking, until I gotcertified as a mindset coach.
And then I was like, oh wait, myjourney and my purpose is like
spinning a little bit here.
And now, like you, I feel verygrounded in my purpose.
I really do.
And I really think my purpose isto empower ambitious women to
live all in and figure out howto become designers of their own
(23:37):
lives in any way I can help themdo that.
But like you, who knows wherethat's gonna go?
Yeah.
I have no idea.
But I always said to people whenI had to walk from interior
design, interior design is sopowerful.
You work with people for twoyears, you redesign their home,
you create a differentenvironment, you change the
quality of their lives, and thatis such a gift.
And I felt so purposeful in thatgift.
(23:59):
But then when I moved tocoaching and speaking and
writing, I was like, oh, but theaudience just got way bigger.
And the ability to help so manymore women find their way just
felt so much more aligned.
And so I kind of pivoted andfollowed that.
And you just keep following it.
(24:19):
I feel like as long as it'shitting your heart, yeah, you'll
you'll find it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:23):
And like I see the through line, right?
It's like you're helping peoplecultivate a sense of aliveness,
whether it's in their homes,right?
Home is root chakra for a lot ofpeople.
So when that feels good, then wecan blossom, right?
And then you're doing the samething through your coaching,
through your speaking, throughyour podcast.
Also, I totally see why you andLee Burgess are like same as
like from the design to themindset.
SPEAKER_01 (24:44):
Totally.
Also, we are you get us intodogs.
We want to have a sanctuary andsave all these animals.
I was like, I if you buy theland, I am in there.
Maybe I buy the land, you'rethere.
SPEAKER_00 (24:53):
Totally so aligned.
Oh my god, I love that.
Also, as soon as I sat down, Ilooked at your background and I
was like, how beautifullycurated.
Like it, it's such a ping.
It's such an obvious thing.
It's beautiful.
Thank you.
Yeah, and it and it's real,folks.
SPEAKER_01 (25:05):
Like that is actually, yeah, no, this is
actually my office.
SPEAKER_00 (25:08):
My first thought was like, anybody that picks
wallpaper is just amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
Oh, I love wallpaper.
I have wallpaper everywhere.
I have wallpaper on the ceilingin my bedroom.
So cool.
Why not?
We look up when we lay down,right?
Oh, and there's a home wellnessthing.
What's the first thing you lookat when you open your eyes?
And what is that telling yourbody about your own wellness and
just getting people to reallythink about themselves first in
their lives and how are theytalking to themselves?
What are they seeing?
What are their senses?
SPEAKER_00 (25:33):
Gorgeous.
Gorgeous.
Yes.
Yeah.
So thanks.
It was a great question.
Love that.
Okay.
Now you were asking me about thethree E's.
Okay.
So one of my um mentors is GayHendricks, or he's really
inspired my work.
He's such a wonderful thinker.
And he came up with the termzones of genius.
I came across his work nine or10 years ago.
(25:54):
And I was just so inspired bythis concept, this idea that we
each have a zone of genius thatwe're just off the charts
amazing around.
And then I sort of kind ofriffed on that and developed my
own version of it.
And really the idea that whenall of us is owning our zone of
genius, we're reallydemocratizing it.
And I think that's so importantbecause I think it's connected
to ambition, right?
We live in a world where wethink like only certain people
(26:17):
can be brilliant, only certainpeople can be genius.
And how that manifests inworkplaces is as the toxic
genius, right?
The one person that like hasreally great ideas but treats
people so badly, but we're like,we got to keep them around
because they're the idea factoryor they're the rainmaker, right?
But when we realize that eachand every one of us has genius,
and our job is to show up inthat and as a collaborative,
(26:38):
right?
And kind of bring together thefabric of our genius to shift
culture.
That's such an empowering thing.
So in the book, there's aframework called the three E's,
and it stands for exceptional,excellent, and eh.
So exceptional is where we'regenius, just off the charts,
amazing.
It's our innateness.
It doesn't mean we don't have towork at the thing, but it means
that there's a level ofinnateness there.
(26:59):
So it's like a child that cameto the planet as a musical
virtuoso, right?
There's natural aptitude, butthey hone the gift.
And then our excellence, andthis is where most of us spend
our lives, and that makes mesad, but also it's a form of
privilege to only live in ourgenius.
But our excellence is a spacethat we're practiced, polished,
and really proficient.
It's usually where we've clockedour 10,000 hours, what we've
(27:20):
gone to school for, what we'vemade other people a ton of money
for, right?
So my marketing career, probablyyour sales career.
Right.
And then there's the eh, thespace that we're average at,
average to below average.
Our brain just wasn't designedfor that space.
And the coolest, I love the ehspace.
A lot of people feel like, youknow, a little squeamish about
it, but I love it because whatit tells me is our brain was
(27:40):
really made for something andreally not made for something
else.
And there's so much power inreleasing that thing.
So you can step more into yourgenius and hand off the eh thing
that is somebody else's genius.
And so I think it can be soempowering to really understand
those three areas.
And you can even do that as ateam, you can do that as a
family.
And then the goal is to movecloser to spending as much time
(28:01):
in that zone of genius, thatzone of exceptional as possible
over our lifetimes.
SPEAKER_01 (28:06):
Which is so important.
And I saw the parallel as anentrepreneur because I think one
of the keys to success as anentrepreneur, and you can tell
me if you've had the sameexperience, is learning to let
go of the eh part and hire inthe eh.
SPEAKER_00 (28:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:21):
Like recognizing a team in corporate America works
best because the people in theteam provide different skill
sets that they bring to thetable.
And in my opinion, the mostpowerful leaders are the ones
that are not trying to be thebest at everything in the room.
They're the ones that are thebest at their best at their
genius, and they're really goodat finding the people that
complement them to raise theboat.
And that in corporate America isvery often the work we spend as
(28:44):
leaders, trying to build thoseteams.
But when you get to become anentrepreneur or a solopreneur,
it's like, oh my goodness, nowI'm like everybody on the boat
here.
And I am the entire team.
And I know for myself when Istarted my business, I was kind
of drowning because I couldn'tidentify the eh.
And I felt like I had to be goodat all of it.
If I'm going to be a successfulentrepreneur, that means I need
(29:05):
to be good at all these things.
And I wasn't willing until Ifailed a little bit to ask for
help.
Yes.
And that and recognize likeyou're good at what you do and
go and do that and shine as anentrepreneur and then let other
people help you in the ways thatyou're not.
And that's not failure.
No, that's super empowering.
Especially as a woman.
I feel like that's a tough oneas a woman, too.
SPEAKER_00 (29:26):
Yes.
I have clients that kind of fallinto two camps.
One, they sort of like struggleto hire out the eh, they know
what it is, but it's, you know,asking for help, that's a really
big thing.
Or they refuse to be eh atanything and they make
themselves excellent, even atthe eh areas.
And so then I have to pry itaway from their little hands and
be like, no, we're gonna work onthis thing.
SPEAKER_01 (29:47):
Yes, yes.
But you know what?
It's good to know that we're notalone.
There's so many of us thatstruggle with so many of these
things, and you do a really goodjob of that in your book of
making everyone feel.
So, what do you think is yourgenius, right?
Now.
SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
My genius is is really seeing other people's.
I feel really grateful.
And I think it's a sort of asummation of a couple of gifts
of like I'm very good atlistening and sort of ingesting
information, even what's notsaid.
And so then very quickly I cankind of put together what other
people's geniuses and how we canleverage that to for their
highest yield contribution.
Um yeah, I'll leave it at that.
(30:22):
And that's super powerful.
That's why people hire a coach.
They can't see what they can'tsee.
100%.
And I can't see that stuff formyself, which is why I'm always
being coached, right?
It's like the value of themirror.
SPEAKER_01 (30:31):
A hundred percent.
And I always say to everybody, Irecorded some videos for
Instagram just today.
Like, I have a coach.
Everyone needs a coach.
Don't think you're abovecoaching.
Like everyone needs a coachbecause we all need that mirror.
We need that reflection.
There's so much we don't seeabout ourselves.
And when the coach can make thatconnection for you, the aha
moment happens so much faster.
(30:53):
Then you can move forwardbecause someone else has pointed
out something that you innatelyknow you just can't necessarily
pull it out of yourself.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
Exactly.
What I always say to my clients,too.
I'm like, you could absolutelyget there alone, right?
But it's faster and moreenjoyable together.
SPEAKER_01 (31:07):
Of course.
Of course.
Yes.
Let's talk about contentment fora minute.
SPEAKER_00 (31:11):
Do it.
Yeah, this is an interestingconcept.
So I have a whole section of thebook that's about ambition and
contentment.
And it's so funny because when Ibring this up or when other
people will bring this up,there's almost like this short
circuiting moment where they'relike, how could ambition and
contentment sit side by side,right?
Because ambition is about more,right?
Yes.
But in our redefinition of it,we can see how they sit side by
(31:32):
side.
So contentment from Easterntraditions loosely translates
into English as unconditionalwholeness or the knowledge of
enough.
So it's this idea, regardless ofwhat's happening around me, I
have this internal stability,this unconditional wholeness,
this knowledge of enough that Iam enough.
So regardless of theachievements and the accolades,
I am stable, I'm good.
It doesn't mean that I don'twant more.
(31:54):
It doesn't mean that I don'twant to keep growing, right?
It's not about actually restingon our laurels.
It's about being good and stableas we express that desire for
more growth.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
So growth is not a negative thing.
Not at all, right?
Again.
It's almost a peace.
It is.
It's almost an acceptance ofthat.
You're not letting that driveyour life.
SPEAKER_00 (32:17):
Exactly, right?
Because with the core wounds,when we're living from them,
it's this desire for more andlike it's never enough.
And we don't know why it's neverenough.
But once you've addressed thecore wounds, we can have more of
that unconditional wholeness,that knowledge of enough.
We're coming from that morestable place.
And in the book, yes, we talkedabout growth being a part of it.
I talk about how, you know, alot of us think ambition is more
for more's sake all the time.
(32:38):
The more money, the more power.
But I think ambition goes incycles, like a perennial flower.
So there's this seedling ofdesire.
I want to grow.
And we nurture that inner andouter environment.
And we have this beautifulgrowth period in the sun.
And then the seasons change andthe petals fall off and we wind
down and go back underground.
And maybe that ground is fallowuntil it's nurtured enough that
we can rise again.
So growth is part of it, rest ispart of it, recovery is part of
(33:02):
it, contentment is part of it.
It's not just about the stretchall the time.
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
Right.
Which is important too, becauseyou need the rest.
You need the down, you need thepeace, you need the calm.
It can't be you know, painfulambition, as you describe it,
makes me think like I startedthis off by saying as I was
reading your book, and I canvision you and going to the
client and driving from the cityand rushing.
And I was like, ha ha ha ha ha.
I can feel the anxiety.
I feel my shoulders dry as Ifeel the anxiety and the stress
(33:28):
of that life because therewasn't any peace and there
wasn't any calm and there wasn'tany rest in that cycle.
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
No, and there was no awareness of myself, right?
No awareness of my pain and mywounds, and no awareness of
anything really.
SPEAKER_01 (33:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:41):
What did you learn the most about yourself while
writing the book?
SPEAKER_00 (33:44):
I think that's something that's so important is
that we're always becomingbecause I think sometimes we can
see a framework like this andweaponize it against ourselves
of like, oh, I'm naughty.
I fell into painful ambitionagain, right?
I think we're always kind ofjockeying back and forth,
especially when we have a nextlevel of becoming.
So what I noticed about myselfwas so I have a betrayal wound.
(34:04):
So control was coming up a lot.
And this is a process that isreal out of control, right?
I mean, there's so few things inour life that we can actually
control, right?
Maybe the color of our hair, thecolor of the car we choose,
whatever.
Even so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you can't control a processlike this.
I actually think it's a deeplyspiritual assignment, but I
noticed that my desire forcontrol was coming up a lot.
So I just had to sit with myinner child and be like, where
(34:27):
do you feel like you can't trustfolks, right?
Where you're gonna feel likeyou're gonna be let down.
What do you need, inner child,so that you can release control
and show up more fully?
And it was just a constantexercise for me.
And it was kind of funny.
I was like, I'm writing the bookon the ambition trap.
I'm almost falling in every day.
And I just have to keep watchingit and doing my tools, you know.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (34:48):
Like, I am the same thing happened to me when I
wrote my book.
I was like, I talk about findingyour best self.
And I went through a phase whereI was like suffering from
depression and I'll be in thecar, just crying.
Yeah.
And I was like, how can I bewriting a book about living my
best life and finding my bestself when here I am in the car
crying for no apparent reasonbecause I'd like slipped into
(35:11):
the state of depression.
And so even for all of us, itebbs and it flows.
And sometimes we are the peoplethat we look to coach and help
because we are we are them atcertain points in time.
We haven't figured it all out.
It's a journey.
SPEAKER_00 (35:25):
And I think that's what makes us great teachers,
right?
It's like if you have known thestruggle and had a front row
seat to the struggle, it's likethen you're called to share on
this thing as you learn the nextstep, right?
None of us has all the answers,but if we're one or two steps
ahead and we can impart somewisdom, great, let's soften the
learning curve for folks.
Yes.
So, what has it been like topromote the book?
(35:46):
What a beautiful question.
It's been so many.
It's like my brain like pingedin about 65 different
directions.
It's been so many things.
So, as a former marketer, youknow, I put together my
marketing plan and I startedtaking action on that last
November.
So my book came out May 13th.
And a big part of my strategywas I wanted to, I work with a
lot of ERGs, employee resourcegroups, because I'm an executive
(36:08):
and leadership coach.
And so I thought, okay, I'lljust go to all these ERGs and
they'll buy a hundred of mybooks.
I'll hit my numbers.
Off she sails into the sunset.
And then at the beginning of theyear with the executive orders,
there was a lot of dismantlingof the ERGs.
And so so many of them could notbuy my books.
But so that whole strategy likewent poof.
And so I was like, okay, she'sgot to find another way, right?
(36:31):
And that was a reallyinteresting mindset moment for
me because there was a momentwhere I was like, I could really
make myself the victim here andbe like, well, that didn't work.
And, you know, but I was like, Irefuse.
I put my soul into this book.
It will have its moment in thesun.
I will find another strategy.
So yeah, I took more of acommunity-based approach and
it's been so lovely.
So as a result of that, from Mayto end of June, I lined up about
(36:54):
25 different community eventsand talks.
And it nourished me more thananything.
Like as a chronic illness girly,I was a little worried.
I was like, am I gonna have theenergy for this?
Like to be in at 25 differentevents back to back across the
country.
How's this gonna go?
But because, and I wonder if youhad this experience too, when
you're writing the book, you'rekind of by yourself.
(37:14):
You know, they're in a bit of atower where you're not getting
much feedback.
And then finally the book wasout in the world and I was
getting feedback and itnourished me so much.
So, all of this to say, likelife, the journey's been a bit
up and down, but the feelingthat I'm left with is just like
the most nourishment and love.
I do feel like an experience oflove.
SPEAKER_01 (37:34):
And I am sure you have met people that have
touched your heart, and you'relike, wow, I wouldn't have met
them without the book.
SPEAKER_00 (37:42):
Oh my gosh, a hundred percent.
And just the questions that theyask, you know, questions I
hadn't thought about.
I mean, I thought about a littlebit, but one of the questions I
get over and over again is youknow, as a parent, I really want
to prevent my child from fallingin the ambition trap or coming
from painful ambition.
And how do I do that?
And that just every time makesme so delighted that there's all
these parents wanting to chart abetter course for future
(38:03):
generations.
And yeah, it's just reallybeautiful to hear those
questions and be in those rooms.
SPEAKER_01 (38:07):
That is so amazing.
All right.
So you have Maria Shriverquoting the big on the front of
your book about it.
And like she's like the, I thinkwe call it the forward.
She's not the introduction,she's the foreword of the book.
Okay, can we just talk for onesecond?
SPEAKER_00 (38:22):
What's that like?
She is just queen, total star.
Yeah, I mean, like, right, she'ssuch goals in how she moves
through the world and how shecarries herself and how she
amplifies voices.
Like, she to me is justabsolutely magical.
And it's still a pinch memoment.
It's like, I can't believe thatMaria Shriver knows my work,
(38:42):
likes my work, promotes my work.
At one point, she did a videoand was like, My friend Amina.
And I was like, Oh my god, arewe friends?
Like, like, okay, cool.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (38:52):
She's incredible.
It was definitely amazing.
She is so aspirational and justsuch an incredible entrepreneur
and wellness and does so manygood things for society.
To even have that person endorsewhat is your baby and your body
of work and your vision and yourplatform and your way of living
(39:13):
is like, whoa.
SPEAKER_00 (39:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
Whoa.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
It's really, it's a pinching moment.
It makes me kind of shy.
I'm like, I can't believe it.
Um, I I feel really blessed andreally lucky.
She is just goals in the worldand doing such beautiful things.
And I can't think of a betterrole model to endorse the work.
It's amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (39:31):
But it's also good, it also helps other people
because it shows, you know, notto say that you're not a nobody.
You're you're not a nobody,you're a somebody in the world,
right?
But someone like you who has apassion, has a purpose, writes a
book that like truly comes fromthe heart, you have real value
to help women.
You are on such a purpose-drivenmission that you can navigate
(39:55):
your way to get there and to getyour voice out and have it be
seen by Maria Schreiber.
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
Thank you.
I think that's such a beautifulreminder for people listening,
right?
It's like when you are deeply inservice, when you're committed
to the work, when you care aboutintegrity, people will notice.
And so, you know, it'sinteresting because I see people
sort of referencing my workwithout attribution and things
like that, but it doesn't makeme upset because I'm just used,
people feel the differenceintegrity versus lack of
(40:21):
integrity.
And people will always noticewhen you're in integrity.
SPEAKER_01 (40:24):
Always.
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (40:26):
Yes.
And when you're being vulnerableand coming from the heart, which
you are in your book as well.
You share your stories.
So, what is on your bucket listhere?
What else do you want to do,personally or professionally?
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
Well, you know, it's so funny with you just
reflecting back, just what astar Maria Shriver is and what
she does with all of herresources, it just kind of lit
this spark in me where I waslike, I want to be more
resourced so that I can do morethings like Maria Shriver.
Like, I want to be donating moremoney to research.
I want to be, you know, more ofthe multi-hyphenate.
And so you just ignited a bit ofa spark, actually.
(40:59):
And you know, if you would askme this question last week,
because a lot of people havebeen asking me, like, what's
next?
And I'm like, oh, I'm in theunderground phrase phase of my
ambition, right?
I just, I just birthed the wholething.
Like I had a peak, right?
So I'm back underground resting.
But what you just asked me andwhat you just reflected, I'm
like, oh, more of that.
SPEAKER_01 (41:16):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (41:18):
And I can see that for you.
You have incredible energy andlight.
And you too, sister.
It's so wonderful to want togive back and help.
And and I don't want to excludemen in all of this because the
ambition job applies to men.
But your book for women needhelp.
And I don't always like womenjust need help.
And you started out your booktalking about that, talking
about what happens incorporations, how women's lights
(41:40):
get pushed down, like womenwomen that are of diversity, but
like women need help.
And so I think being a light tohelp raise women in any capacity
is really important, not toexclude you men in the world,
but I think women need help.
Thank you so much.
So thank you for that.
All right, so I've taken so muchof your time.
I have two last questions.
One is there anything that Ididn't ask you that you want to
(42:04):
make sure you communicate aboutyour book, your work, yourself,
your business?
SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
I feel like we, I mean, maybe it's worth putting
like a period on the end of thesentence about, you know, in the
book, I'm not asking anybody tobe less ambitious or to renounce
their ambition.
You know, the the title is a bitof a bait and switch, right?
We're saying, oh, ambition's atrap, right?
Well, the way that we know it isa trap.
And what I want people to do issort of find their harmonious
relationship with ambition.
(42:28):
So I'm never asking anybody tobe less ambitious or to renounce
their ambition.
I'm inviting them to be in theright relationship with it.
So I think that's just a periodI want to put on the end of the
sentence.
Perfect.
I will leave it at that.
SPEAKER_01 (42:40):
All right, my last question.
Book.
I ask all my guests to recommenda book that has impacted them
personally or professionally,that has changed their lives
that they think the listenersshould read, other than your
own, which will be linked in theshow notes along with everywhere
to find you and get you andfollow you and all those things.
What book would book or books?
Many people can't do one.
SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
I'm so glad that you said that because like two
popped up and I was like, how doI choose?
Um thankfully, you already hadLee Burgess on the podcast.
Otherwise, I would haverecommended her book.
But two new ones that just cameout.
So Minda Hart's new book calledTalk to Me Nice.
That's about love languages atthe workplace and how we can
better communicate with eachother.
She's amazing.
Ooh, I like that.
Yes.
And then Amber Ray, who is like,you know, Instagram famous
(43:23):
thought leader, comes up withall this beautiful poetry and is
big on journaling, has a newbook out called Lovable.
And I loved this book because itwas about I'm someone who uh got
divorced in the last couple ofyears.
And it was about how she madethis really hard decision to
leave this marriage that lookedgreat on paper but was not true
to her soul, and then ends upfinding the love of her life.
(43:45):
And it's not just aboutrelationships, because I think
sometimes you can getpigeonholed in that context.
It's about choosing yourself,whether it's at work, in
friendship or relationships.
And it's so vulnerable.
So I highly recommend.
SPEAKER_01 (43:57):
Yes.
And she was a guest on yourpodcast.
Yes.
That launched, I think thisweek, last week, the very like
one or the other.
You're so good at your research.
She was just a guest on yourshow, right?
Because when you mentioned hername, I was like, oh, I know
that.
I know that woman.
Yes, yes, yes.
But that is also such animportant book and such an
important topic.
And I do have lots of gueststhat talk about, in fact, we had
one earlier this morning thattalked about divorce and
(44:19):
learning to love you.
It's not just about the divorce,it's anywhere in life.
And I think it aligns with somuch of what you talk about in
your book, right?
Finding you, learning to loveyou, and learning to find your
positive traits, learning tofind your contentment, learning
to find the vocabulary.
Which is one last comment,everybody.
I feel like your book did anexcellent job giving people
(44:40):
vocabulary to describe emotions,to describe a process that they
might not have and might not befamiliar with, and a reframing
way to look at some words thatmight be used in a different
context.
So I'm gonna leave it at that.
SPEAKER_00 (44:54):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for that beautifulreflection.
Thank you for having me.
And thank you, everyone, so muchfor listening.
SPEAKER_01 (45:00):
Absolutely.
I'm gonna, it's such a pleasure,truly.
It's an honor.
Your book is a gift.
Everybody, Ambition Trap.
I'm gonna link it in the shownotes.
And I thank you and I willfollow you.
I look forward to stayingconnected, and I hope you have a
beautiful rest of your day.
You too.
Thank you for joining us foranother episode of the House of
Germard Podcast, where wellnessstarts within.
(45:22):
We appreciate you being a partof our community and hope you
felt inspired and motivated byour guest.
If you enjoyed this episode,please write us a review and
share it with friends.
Building our reach on YouTubeand Apple Podcasts will help us
get closer to our mission toempower one million women to
live all in.
You can also follow us onInstagram at House of Germar and
(45:44):
sign up to be a part of ourmonthly inspiration newsletter
through our website,houseofgermar.com.
If you or someone you know wouldbe a good guest on the show,
please reach out to us atpodcast at houseofger.com.
This has been the House ofGermar Production with your
host, Gene Collins.
Thank you for joining our house.
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