July 30, 2025 • 23 mins
In this special episode of House of Peregrine, we’re sharing Mickelle’s guest appearance on Passport to Wealth with hosts Arielle Tucker and Savannah Chaffin. Together, they explore the emotional, logistical, and financial realities of life as a US expat. Mickelle recounts her family’s daring move from Salt Lake City to Amsterdam - with three kids under five and no housing—highlighting the blend of risk, resourcefulness, and soul-searching that shaped their international life.
They discuss the unexpected generosity of strangers, the power of expat communities, and the cultural recalibrations that come with building a life abroad. Mickelle shares how being rooted in values like global citizenship and belonging helped her navigate distance from family, cultural differences, and the startup world in Europe.
Key Moments:
- Trust in the process: Mickelle’s family’s bold relocation without jobs or housing—on her son’s 5th birthday, just in time to start school in Dutch
- Finding Belonging in Community: The support she found in international networks and school friendships.
- Run Toward, Not Away: Why choosing a place for its values alignment is key to long-term fulfillment.
- Redefining the American Dream: How global living reshaped her relationship to identity and ambition.
- Family, Distance, and Guilt: Honest reflections on staying connected across oceans.
- Startups and Cultural Shifts: The contrasts between US and European entrepreneurial ecosystems.
🎧 Listen now and explore what it really means to live meaningfully abroad.
Find Mickelle at houseofperegrine.com
Connect with Arielle and Savannah at connectedfinancialplanning.com and https://www.passporttowealth.com/
To listen to the original episode, visit
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey there before we get. Started.
I just wanted to come on and askyou all a favor.
In our research, we've discovered that the vast
majority of you do not. Actually like and subscribe to
our podcast. And so if I could ask you to do
so, I won't ask you for anythingelse.
And I promise to make this podcast the best I can every
day. Me and the team really strive to
(00:21):
do that for you. And so if you could do this for
us. We would.
Be eternally grateful. Thank you so much.
Hi, I'm Mikkel Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes what we are
all about perfectly. Those that craft their life
(00:42):
story with intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I've
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews.
I hope to connect those living internationally more deeply to
(01:03):
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances and meaning making.
To global. Parenting and relationships to
make your time abroad more intentional edifying.
And full of beauty. Find us at houseofperegrine.com
where you can find more ways to connect with the ethos of
(01:25):
Peregrine. I hope you enjoy today's guest.
Let's get started. A few weeks ago, I had the
pleasure of joining Ariel Tuckerand Savannah Chaffin on their
podcast, Passport to Wealth, where they explore the financial
and emotional journeys of US expats living abroad.
I shared my story of moving to the Netherlands, how Doug and I
landed here with three kids, under 5 highly skilled migrants,
(01:48):
but with no housing, and we got to have the adventure of a
lifetime. That all was made possible by
one stranger, who I have not metby the way, letting us stay in
their house for a few weeks. While I would not recommend just
jumping into an international move the way we did, it is our
story and I'm happy I got to share it.
Whether you're. Living or dreaming of living
abroad? Or just asking bigger questions
(02:08):
about how to live more meaningful life.
I hope it resonates. So here is my conversation with
Arielle. Hi everyone, thanks for tuning
into. Passport to Wealth, the podcast
that takes. You on a journey through
navigating your finances. As AUS expat.
I'm your host. Ariel Tucker, a certified.
Financial planner and enrolled agent focusing on cross-border
planning for US expats and I'm joined by my Co host.
(02:32):
I'm Savannah Chaffin, A CFP candidate Enrolled Agent and
self declared Expat tax. There here to guide you through
the maze of life and finances across borders and share the
inspiring stories of fellow US expats who have navigated the
process. Welcome back to Passport to
wealth. I'm Arielle Tucker, certified
financial planner and Co founderof Passport to Wealth podcast
(02:54):
and I run and own and operate connected financial planning.
Today I am thrilled to welcome aspecial guest, Mikhail Weber.
Mikhail is an Angel investor, storyteller, serial entrepreneur
and founder. She's the host of the House of
Peregrine podcast, where she explores the power of
storytelling and shares insightsfrom creative leaders around the
(03:17):
world. Mikel's journey is 1 of
reinvention and international adventure.
Originally from the US, she's now based in the Nether
Netherlands where she blends herexpertise in AI, filmmaking, and
communications. With a career spanning
industries and continents, Mikelhas a unique perspective on what
it means to be a global digital native.
Mikel, we're so happy to have you here to talk about the expat
(03:41):
experience and embracing change,which can help lead to a
fulfilling lifestyle. Would you please, just, I don't
know, feel free to expand on ourintroduction or we can jump
right into just learning more about your journey to the
Netherlands. Yeah, Well, thank you so much,
first of all, for having me. I'm really, I love your podcast
and I love what you're doing in the world.
(04:02):
So I'm happy to come on and talkto your listeners.
We can jump right in. I mean, my story is pretty.
I mean, it's wild, but it's alsopretty normal if you meet people
that do this a lot. So what would you like to know?
Where would you like me to start?
Yeah. I mean, I would like to know, We
know you're in the Netherlands now and I'm really curious.
Can you tell us about your journey to the Netherlands?
(04:25):
Yeah, so I've lived in Amsterdam, in the very heart of
Amsterdam, for the last. Eight years.
And it started out because my partner and I, Doug, his name is
Doug, we had kind of an informalpact that we would live abroad
at some point in our journey. And he's actually also a serial
entrepreneur. And so he had started a company
at the same time we had our first child.
(04:47):
And so we had the informal agreement was that we would live
abroad, but then we started having children and he started
building a company in Salt Lake City where we are from.
And yeah, the, the clock was ticking.
And so we made a new agreement that our kids, I didn't want our
kids to, to not know another language.
And so we thought we'll move by the time they go to school,
which is five in, in the US, as you know.
(05:08):
And so we really were country shopping for a few years.
And I say that like, not in a consumer way, but just like what
would work for us. And so we, we put a lot of
consideration into it, like fromfamily, how far we'd be.
We had lived and worked abroad alot before we had children.
And so we knew with our kids, wewanted them to have a language
(05:31):
and all these things. So we had a lot of goals.
But we just, you know, Amsterdamcame up.
We had never been here before. I would never recommend this.
We had never been here before, but we thought, you know what,
let's just go. My, my partner, he, he took his
company remote overnight of, youknow, 200 employees.
We moved in three months, landedhere with three kids under 5 on
(05:51):
my son's 5th birthday, No place to live, no jobs.
I mean, we had passed, we had, my, my partner was opening the
European headquarters of his company here.
So that really helped. But we did it really the, I
mean, I wouldn't recommend it, but it's how we got here.
Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine.
You're, You guys are so brave. And I, I'm curious because you
(06:14):
said that you had lived and worked in other countries.
Were those other countries in Europe or were you in completely
different region before you ended up settling in in in the
Netherlands and in Europe more generally?
So we, we, we were based in SaltLake City, but it's like a Delta
hub. So we whenever I was working
advertising at the time and my partner wasn't doing startups
(06:36):
and so we would go to Asia for afew weeks or months and then we
would, we went to Canada for a few weeks or months.
And so we kind of went all over the world.
And that was kind of part of theprocess of country shopping was
we were like, how does this feelto live because we are both
travelling so much. I went to Nepal like that's,
that's a famous story in our family.
(06:57):
I found out I was pregnant and flew to Nepal the next day and
was in the Himalayas. So we were travelling a lot
during that time already. And so, yeah, we were already
kind of digital natives working remotely.
This was in the early 2000s or you know, so it was pretty early
to be doing that. Or maybe 2011.
Ten, nine, Yeah. Does that answer your question?
(07:19):
Yeah, it kind of does, but I do I I Savannah and I did a a
podcast earlier this season where we were talking about like
tips to move abroad and one of them was like, go and live or
take an extended vacation in that place before you just like
show up. But I actually did the same
thing that you did, Mikel, when we moved to Switzerland, My
husband and I both been to Germany.
So I was like, it's Switzerland.It's very similar.
(07:40):
And we showed up with like, you know, all of our stuff and, and
no housing, nothing and made it work.
So sometimes when I think when that desires is so deep, when
you have that travel experience already, right, this isn't your
first rodeo. Then honestly, if you're just
ready to go, just like just RIP the Band-Aid off and try it out.
So I actually love that it's part of your story.
(08:01):
Yeah, me too. I mean, we couldn't.
It's like having kids or any bigdecisions.
There's never a good time unlessyou're coming with a company
like officially, then maybe. But for us being entrepreneurs,
it was just we had to go when itwas time to go.
Yeah, wow. And, you know, settling in with
three little kids under the age of five.
I mean, do you have any tips forfinding good housing and getting
(08:26):
settled into, like, the daycare and Kita system?
I mean, how did you do it? How did you handle it?
You know, I always say This is why I started House of
Peregrine, but it really is. We really just said what we
wanted and asked people and we found a place to live for two
weeks. I mean, it's everyone who knows
(08:46):
what this journey is like is willing to extend kindness.
And I, I say that, you know, of course you have to have the
right attitude, but there is a network of people who live
around the world who've done this and know what it's like.
And so tapping into that as early as possible is what I did.
And there was a, there still is a great group called Amsterdam
(09:07):
Mamas. It's a Facebook group and, and I
didn't find it till I got here. But yeah, you can't apply till
you get here. And I didn't really find much to
that. But I had a lot, I felt like I
had a lot of support just from tapping into the international
community, you know, through different groups.
You mentioned Facebook groups were there, which we've
(09:28):
mentioned before. I think Facebook groups,
especially in expat communities,it's a great way to connect.
And if you're like, oh, where should I, you know, move or what
should I do? Try thinking about the cities
and then being like Americans inor expats in and like you will
find a group also like those moms groups I find in expat
communities are so good. And I love that it's always a
(09:49):
mix of like locals who have sometimes a lot of international
experience who've moved back andare looking still for that
community. Are there any other groups that
you found or that you connected with that you would recommend to
people to try to to to look for?No, you know, it's, I think it's
pretty common. But we were like, because we
travelled so much, we were really looking for to get into
(10:12):
the city as fast as we could. So at first we were very much
going, OK, we love Americans, weare Americans, but we want to
meet Dutchies, We want to meet people from around the world.
And I actually found that in my kids school.
And so I made a group of friendsthat were from 5 different
countries, some of which my country had been at war with my
entire childhood. And we had all left our
(10:34):
countries for similar reasons, just for adventure, but also
kind of recognizing this was early 2016, that our countries
were changing. We wanted something different
for our daughters. And so that was an interesting
group of women who were kind of feeling what was happening and
and coming together around this idea that we wanted something
different for our children, eventhough we felt very lucky with
(10:55):
how we grew up. Yeah, I think that resonates
with so many of, you know, the people that we come across with
in in the in the expat. It's like growing up in the US
Obviously that is coming from a place of privilege.
Just having that US passport, that's a piece of place of
privilege. But still acknowledging that the
American dream, the classic American dream was actually not
(11:17):
my American dream. And looking for something else
and finding that community of people who are who help you
create community outside of yourhome countries.
It's so important. Yeah, And I thought it was just
me. I thought it was, but also it
wasn't. I think if I were to tell people
something, it's run towards something and not a way.
I think after eight years, you know, from my story, we came in
(11:41):
2016 thinking our country was one way.
And then, you know, I was here for the election of 2016.
And it was totally different than most people thought it was
going to turn out. And that led me on a journey of
like reckoning and looking at myown culture.
And we're doing it again now. I mean, as, as American people,
we're really, you know, looking at some really polarizing things
(12:05):
in our country. But I feel lucky that I wasn't
running away from that. It was a personal experience.
And so I would just, I don't know, I would just tell people
to look at it as running towardssomething.
I love that so much. I love that framing of it.
And I don't know if I've heard it in in the same way,
(12:26):
especially in my role as, you know, helping cross-border
families after the election, there was such an uptick of
just, we have to get out of here.
We have to get out of there. And I found I really don't like
working with those people because they're running away.
There's not the the deep values or the deep understanding of
what they're going to. And sometimes if you don't
(12:50):
understand what you're going to,right, there's trade-offs,
right? The Netherlands is not perfect
either. There's a whole political
situation that's unfolding and not only in the Netherlands, but
across most of Europe, right? We have our own problems here.
And so it's important to have that deeper understanding.
And it's the same thing. Like I don't tell people to give
up their US passport just because they don't like paying
taxes. There's so many deeper things to
(13:12):
consider than just, you know, money.
And who's currently president, quite honestly.
Well, and it gets you through because it is there are so many
glamorous things about living inanother country, especially
European capital. I live in a postcard like I live
in the center of Amsterdam. I bike my kids everywhere.
It's my life is literally a postcard if you look at it.
(13:34):
But what gets you through the harder things, which is like
mountains of admin, some missingfamily.
During the pandemic, my my dad was in the hospital.
I couldn't go see him. There's lots of other hard
things. And the whatever you're going
towards will get you through whatever hard things there are.
And that conviction that you arein the right place at the right
(13:55):
time is really something that gives a lot of peace, I think.
Yeah, OK. What just kind of expanding a
little bit. I know it sounds like your
family is still all back in the US.
Do you have any and and Doug's family is all in the US as well?
Yep. OK.
(14:16):
Do you have any tips there on how you guys have stayed
connected with the family? Have you had any, I don't know,
strained relationships because your family wants you to move
back? I mean, how have you guys
navigated that as a as a family?You know, it's not easy.
So I think, I mean think all of our family is still mad at us in
(14:37):
a very loving way because you are breaking.
Especially where we grew up in, in Salt Lake City, it's very
family oriented. People tend to live close or
come back when they have kids ifthey've gone away.
And we kind of did the opposite.You know, we really embrace
meeting up in locations. We're really lucky their
cousins, some of them can travelto us.
(14:57):
And so we look at it as quantityover quality or quality over
quantity because we did. We lived within 20 minutes of
our almost our entire families when we left.
And that was tough. I mean, it was tough.
There's a lot of mourning of leaving that life, that life
where you're, you see your parents reliably when you're
(15:19):
living abroad. You can count on, you know, your
hands sometimes how many times you're going to see your parents
again. You miss growing, seeing your
nieces and nephews grow up the way you might have if you live
there. And so again, that that
conviction that you're in the right place where your little
family, at least for us, we think our kids are in the right
place for the goals we have for them.
(15:41):
Not because it's not America, it's just if they were not
American, it would be probably adifferent country we were in,
maybe even America. But the goals we have for them,
which is global citizenship, language acquisition, living in
an urban place, being able to bemore independent that this place
fits our family values. That's really what gets us
(16:01):
through. But I would be lying if I said
it's not really tough to to see my nieces and nephews once a
year and they've doubled in size.
I mean, that is, there's nothingthere's.
It's just part of it. It's one of those trade-offs
that you really can't get around.
Yeah, no, that's something we'vealways been navigating and it,
it doesn't necessarily get easier.
(16:23):
And as our I know as my parents have aged and you know, or have
had health issues that you just,I do, I feel a sense of, of
guilt missing out. But at the same time, same with
you. We have such a deep
understanding as a core family that we are in the right place
for our family, that is, and we're living our ideal life and
(16:45):
we're, you know, able to travel and, and go back and, and
they're able to, you know, travel to CS And we're so
thankful for that. And same, the, the quality of
the time that we spend with them.
I mean, it's so different when you live 20 minutes away and
it's this quick pop in regular pop insurance where we'll spend
2 weeks with my parents and go on a really nice vacation and
(17:05):
just have a completely differenttype of experience and
relationship together. Yeah.
And it really is. There's something about knowing
that it's finite, that it it puts it on the other end of the
spectrum and you don't take eachother for granted.
But again, it is not for everybody.
Yeah. I I would be lying if I said it
(17:27):
wasn't the worst part of living abroad.
Yeah. It.
Is it's very. It's still hard as you, I know
you are an Angel investor, you're a serial entrepreneur.
How has I don't know your, your,your business opportunities or
considerations of being invested?
Like, how has that changed sinceyou've moved abroad in the last
eight years? Yeah, well, you know, I had a,
(17:50):
my story's interesting because Ihad what I love.
They they're calling like a power pause with my kids.
So I worked in advertising for alot of years and then an Angel
investing and had kind of a weird portfolio already or of,
of skills. And then I took an 8 year break
to be with my kids. And while my partner continued
to build businesses and I continued to invest in other
(18:12):
things, real estate. And so all of those things, all
those skills come into handy, come in handy.
But culture, culture runs through everything.
So investment is no, you know, it's no different.
So the startup scene in Europe is much different than the US.
It's run by different things. The values are different.
(18:34):
And so it's different because I had to learn that like a
language. And I still am learning it.
And I hope I always am learning it because I think what happens
is I bring a unique blend of American experience in an
American startup culture and then an appreciation for what a
European perspective can look like.
But that means I'm always learning and I'm always
translating and I'm always building bridges and asking lots
(18:56):
of questions. And when you, when I moved
abroad, at least my network kindof disappeared in a way.
So I had to rebuild a network here and I'm still doing it.
But I think for me, that's the biggest thing is your network
changes, especially if you're not coming back, if you're not
saying, oh, I'm gone for a year,It's we're like, hey, we're gone
(19:17):
until it's not fun anymore for our family.
And now it's been 8 years. And so I think if, if you do
life the way we do, you're always having to reinvent
yourself or storytell really is storytelling because it is very,
well, it looks like very random.There are values guiding the way
we live our life and the way we invest and the way we do
(19:39):
everything for our family. It's as an integrated whole
human being. So we don't just move for a
career or for family or for things.
It's it's an integrated decisionwith five people that we're
looking after in our family. Yeah.
So but. But it's regulatory.
I mean, in every way, both cultures are different, as you
(20:00):
know. I don't have to tell you.
Yeah. And it's.
So funny because I mean, I know you're in the Netherlands and
we, I haven't, I haven't lived in the Netherlands, but I'm
aware of some of those cultural differences between the Dutch
and the Germans and the Swiss. And I mean, it's really like
we're all in, you know, this onesmall little continent, but you
know, just drive an hour or two and it's like culturally
(20:24):
completely different. And I bet, I bet that's just
within being in Amsterdam versusbeing outside of Amsterdam.
That is like can be culturally really different as well.
So when people call me like, I want to move to Europe, it's
like big, big place, big, big place.
Very, very different environments.
And I would imagine like the Amsterdam startup culture is
(20:45):
different than the Zurich one, which is different when the
Berlin 1. And so, yeah, I agree, it's
endless opportunities to learn and grow.
And I think if you come as an expat with what you have, this
kind of eagerness and willingness to just pour into
your adapted country and to continue to learn, that's I
(21:06):
think really, you know, you'll be successful.
You you'll be able to build something with that.
Yeah. And usually people who have the
best time, what I've, what I've come to conclude is knowing that
you'll never, ever fit in somewhere again.
So you might as well be yourself.
And so that's, I mean, the Houseof Peregrine is about that, that
(21:27):
it's very soulful for me. Peregrine means outsider and
they live on every continent of the world.
But the word means outsider. And, and even when you move back
home, when you repatriate, if you do, you still have this
experience where home was never the same again.
And that's the same with being any kind of career or being a
mom abroad. You end up having more in common
(21:49):
with people from around the world that have the same
experience and maybe the people you grew up with.
Yep. That's been my own like lived
experience as well. So thank you so much for sharing
that. I know we're just about out of
time. I was going to say share a tip,
but like, I think honestly, we'll leave on that because I
think that's such a great point to just accept I'm never really
going to fit in anywhere again. And I'm OK with that.
(22:12):
And you can be and live your authentic self.
I think that's such a great tip.We will be sure to link your
podcast in our show notes as well to make sure people can
find your podcast. Really thank you so much again
Michael. It's been such a pleasure to
have you on our show. Thanks for having me.
Thank you for tuning. In Stay tuned for our upcoming
episodes, packed with insights and stories to empower your.
(22:35):
Global Financial. Journey.
This is passport. To wealth where your financial
future. Knows no borders.
OK. That's it for today, I hope
you've enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on
living internationally, join us at houseofperegrine.com to find
out how you can connect with ourcommunity.
Let's craft our life story with intention.
(22:56):
Together.
Hey there before we get. Started.
I just wanted to come on and askyou all a favor.
In our research, we've discovered that the vast
majority of you do not. Actually like and subscribe to
our podcast. And so if I could ask you to do
so, I won't ask you for anythingelse.
And I promise to make this podcast the best I can every
day. Me and the team really strive to
(00:21):
do that for you. And so if you could do this for
us. We would.
Be eternally grateful. Thank you so much.
Hi, I'm Mikkel Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes what we are
all about perfectly. Those that craft their life
(00:42):
story with intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I've
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews.
I hope to connect those living internationally more deeply to
(01:03):
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances and meaning making.
To global. Parenting and relationships to
make your time abroad more intentional edifying.
And full of beauty. Find us at houseofperegrine.com
where you can find more ways to connect with the ethos of
(01:25):
Peregrine. I hope you enjoy today's guest.
Let's get started. A few weeks ago, I had the
pleasure of joining Ariel Tuckerand Savannah Chaffin on their
podcast, Passport to Wealth, where they explore the financial
and emotional journeys of US expats living abroad.
I shared my story of moving to the Netherlands, how Doug and I
landed here with three kids, under 5 highly skilled migrants,
(01:48):
but with no housing, and we got to have the adventure of a
lifetime. That all was made possible by
one stranger, who I have not metby the way, letting us stay in
their house for a few weeks. While I would not recommend just
jumping into an international move the way we did, it is our
story and I'm happy I got to share it.
Whether you're. Living or dreaming of living
abroad? Or just asking bigger questions
(02:08):
about how to live more meaningful life.
I hope it resonates. So here is my conversation with
Arielle. Hi everyone, thanks for tuning
into. Passport to Wealth, the podcast
that takes. You on a journey through
navigating your finances. As AUS expat.
I'm your host. Ariel Tucker, a certified.
Financial planner and enrolled agent focusing on cross-border
planning for US expats and I'm joined by my Co host.
(02:32):
I'm Savannah Chaffin, A CFP candidate Enrolled Agent and
self declared Expat tax. There here to guide you through
the maze of life and finances across borders and share the
inspiring stories of fellow US expats who have navigated the
process. Welcome back to Passport to
wealth. I'm Arielle Tucker, certified
financial planner and Co founderof Passport to Wealth podcast
(02:54):
and I run and own and operate connected financial planning.
Today I am thrilled to welcome aspecial guest, Mikhail Weber.
Mikhail is an Angel investor, storyteller, serial entrepreneur
and founder. She's the host of the House of
Peregrine podcast, where she explores the power of
storytelling and shares insightsfrom creative leaders around the
(03:17):
world. Mikel's journey is 1 of
reinvention and international adventure.
Originally from the US, she's now based in the Nether
Netherlands where she blends herexpertise in AI, filmmaking, and
communications. With a career spanning
industries and continents, Mikelhas a unique perspective on what
it means to be a global digital native.
Mikel, we're so happy to have you here to talk about the expat
(03:41):
experience and embracing change,which can help lead to a
fulfilling lifestyle. Would you please, just, I don't
know, feel free to expand on ourintroduction or we can jump
right into just learning more about your journey to the
Netherlands. Yeah, Well, thank you so much,
first of all, for having me. I'm really, I love your podcast
and I love what you're doing in the world.
(04:02):
So I'm happy to come on and talkto your listeners.
We can jump right in. I mean, my story is pretty.
I mean, it's wild, but it's alsopretty normal if you meet people
that do this a lot. So what would you like to know?
Where would you like me to start?
Yeah. I mean, I would like to know, We
know you're in the Netherlands now and I'm really curious.
Can you tell us about your journey to the Netherlands?
(04:25):
Yeah, so I've lived in Amsterdam, in the very heart of
Amsterdam, for the last. Eight years.
And it started out because my partner and I, Doug, his name is
Doug, we had kind of an informalpact that we would live abroad
at some point in our journey. And he's actually also a serial
entrepreneur. And so he had started a company
at the same time we had our first child.
(04:47):
And so we had the informal agreement was that we would live
abroad, but then we started having children and he started
building a company in Salt Lake City where we are from.
And yeah, the, the clock was ticking.
And so we made a new agreement that our kids, I didn't want our
kids to, to not know another language.
And so we thought we'll move by the time they go to school,
which is five in, in the US, as you know.
(05:08):
And so we really were country shopping for a few years.
And I say that like, not in a consumer way, but just like what
would work for us. And so we, we put a lot of
consideration into it, like fromfamily, how far we'd be.
We had lived and worked abroad alot before we had children.
And so we knew with our kids, wewanted them to have a language
(05:31):
and all these things. So we had a lot of goals.
But we just, you know, Amsterdamcame up.
We had never been here before. I would never recommend this.
We had never been here before, but we thought, you know what,
let's just go. My, my partner, he, he took his
company remote overnight of, youknow, 200 employees.
We moved in three months, landedhere with three kids under 5 on
(05:51):
my son's 5th birthday, No place to live, no jobs.
I mean, we had passed, we had, my, my partner was opening the
European headquarters of his company here.
So that really helped. But we did it really the, I
mean, I wouldn't recommend it, but it's how we got here.
Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine.
You're, You guys are so brave. And I, I'm curious because you
(06:14):
said that you had lived and worked in other countries.
Were those other countries in Europe or were you in completely
different region before you ended up settling in in in the
Netherlands and in Europe more generally?
So we, we, we were based in SaltLake City, but it's like a Delta
hub. So we whenever I was working
advertising at the time and my partner wasn't doing startups
(06:36):
and so we would go to Asia for afew weeks or months and then we
would, we went to Canada for a few weeks or months.
And so we kind of went all over the world.
And that was kind of part of theprocess of country shopping was
we were like, how does this feelto live because we are both
travelling so much. I went to Nepal like that's,
that's a famous story in our family.
(06:57):
I found out I was pregnant and flew to Nepal the next day and
was in the Himalayas. So we were travelling a lot
during that time already. And so, yeah, we were already
kind of digital natives working remotely.
This was in the early 2000s or you know, so it was pretty early
to be doing that. Or maybe 2011.
Ten, nine, Yeah. Does that answer your question?
(07:19):
Yeah, it kind of does, but I do I I Savannah and I did a a
podcast earlier this season where we were talking about like
tips to move abroad and one of them was like, go and live or
take an extended vacation in that place before you just like
show up. But I actually did the same
thing that you did, Mikel, when we moved to Switzerland, My
husband and I both been to Germany.
So I was like, it's Switzerland.It's very similar.
(07:40):
And we showed up with like, you know, all of our stuff and, and
no housing, nothing and made it work.
So sometimes when I think when that desires is so deep, when
you have that travel experience already, right, this isn't your
first rodeo. Then honestly, if you're just
ready to go, just like just RIP the Band-Aid off and try it out.
So I actually love that it's part of your story.
(08:01):
Yeah, me too. I mean, we couldn't.
It's like having kids or any bigdecisions.
There's never a good time unlessyou're coming with a company
like officially, then maybe. But for us being entrepreneurs,
it was just we had to go when itwas time to go.
Yeah, wow. And, you know, settling in with
three little kids under the age of five.
I mean, do you have any tips forfinding good housing and getting
(08:26):
settled into, like, the daycare and Kita system?
I mean, how did you do it? How did you handle it?
You know, I always say This is why I started House of
Peregrine, but it really is. We really just said what we
wanted and asked people and we found a place to live for two
weeks. I mean, it's everyone who knows
(08:46):
what this journey is like is willing to extend kindness.
And I, I say that, you know, of course you have to have the
right attitude, but there is a network of people who live
around the world who've done this and know what it's like.
And so tapping into that as early as possible is what I did.
And there was a, there still is a great group called Amsterdam
(09:07):
Mamas. It's a Facebook group and, and I
didn't find it till I got here. But yeah, you can't apply till
you get here. And I didn't really find much to
that. But I had a lot, I felt like I
had a lot of support just from tapping into the international
community, you know, through different groups.
You mentioned Facebook groups were there, which we've
(09:28):
mentioned before. I think Facebook groups,
especially in expat communities,it's a great way to connect.
And if you're like, oh, where should I, you know, move or what
should I do? Try thinking about the cities
and then being like Americans inor expats in and like you will
find a group also like those moms groups I find in expat
communities are so good. And I love that it's always a
(09:49):
mix of like locals who have sometimes a lot of international
experience who've moved back andare looking still for that
community. Are there any other groups that
you found or that you connected with that you would recommend to
people to try to to to look for?No, you know, it's, I think it's
pretty common. But we were like, because we
travelled so much, we were really looking for to get into
(10:12):
the city as fast as we could. So at first we were very much
going, OK, we love Americans, weare Americans, but we want to
meet Dutchies, We want to meet people from around the world.
And I actually found that in my kids school.
And so I made a group of friendsthat were from 5 different
countries, some of which my country had been at war with my
entire childhood. And we had all left our
(10:34):
countries for similar reasons, just for adventure, but also
kind of recognizing this was early 2016, that our countries
were changing. We wanted something different
for our daughters. And so that was an interesting
group of women who were kind of feeling what was happening and
and coming together around this idea that we wanted something
different for our children, eventhough we felt very lucky with
(10:55):
how we grew up. Yeah, I think that resonates
with so many of, you know, the people that we come across with
in in the in the expat. It's like growing up in the US
Obviously that is coming from a place of privilege.
Just having that US passport, that's a piece of place of
privilege. But still acknowledging that the
American dream, the classic American dream was actually not
(11:17):
my American dream. And looking for something else
and finding that community of people who are who help you
create community outside of yourhome countries.
It's so important. Yeah, And I thought it was just
me. I thought it was, but also it
wasn't. I think if I were to tell people
something, it's run towards something and not a way.
I think after eight years, you know, from my story, we came in
(11:41):
2016 thinking our country was one way.
And then, you know, I was here for the election of 2016.
And it was totally different than most people thought it was
going to turn out. And that led me on a journey of
like reckoning and looking at myown culture.
And we're doing it again now. I mean, as, as American people,
we're really, you know, looking at some really polarizing things
(12:05):
in our country. But I feel lucky that I wasn't
running away from that. It was a personal experience.
And so I would just, I don't know, I would just tell people
to look at it as running towardssomething.
I love that so much. I love that framing of it.
And I don't know if I've heard it in in the same way,
(12:26):
especially in my role as, you know, helping cross-border
families after the election, there was such an uptick of
just, we have to get out of here.
We have to get out of there. And I found I really don't like
working with those people because they're running away.
There's not the the deep values or the deep understanding of
what they're going to. And sometimes if you don't
(12:50):
understand what you're going to,right, there's trade-offs,
right? The Netherlands is not perfect
either. There's a whole political
situation that's unfolding and not only in the Netherlands, but
across most of Europe, right? We have our own problems here.
And so it's important to have that deeper understanding.
And it's the same thing. Like I don't tell people to give
up their US passport just because they don't like paying
taxes. There's so many deeper things to
(13:12):
consider than just, you know, money.
And who's currently president, quite honestly.
Well, and it gets you through because it is there are so many
glamorous things about living inanother country, especially
European capital. I live in a postcard like I live
in the center of Amsterdam. I bike my kids everywhere.
It's my life is literally a postcard if you look at it.
(13:34):
But what gets you through the harder things, which is like
mountains of admin, some missingfamily.
During the pandemic, my my dad was in the hospital.
I couldn't go see him. There's lots of other hard
things. And the whatever you're going
towards will get you through whatever hard things there are.
And that conviction that you arein the right place at the right
(13:55):
time is really something that gives a lot of peace, I think.
Yeah, OK. What just kind of expanding a
little bit. I know it sounds like your
family is still all back in the US.
Do you have any and and Doug's family is all in the US as well?
Yep. OK.
(14:16):
Do you have any tips there on how you guys have stayed
connected with the family? Have you had any, I don't know,
strained relationships because your family wants you to move
back? I mean, how have you guys
navigated that as a as a family?You know, it's not easy.
So I think, I mean think all of our family is still mad at us in
(14:37):
a very loving way because you are breaking.
Especially where we grew up in, in Salt Lake City, it's very
family oriented. People tend to live close or
come back when they have kids ifthey've gone away.
And we kind of did the opposite.You know, we really embrace
meeting up in locations. We're really lucky their
cousins, some of them can travelto us.
(14:57):
And so we look at it as quantityover quality or quality over
quantity because we did. We lived within 20 minutes of
our almost our entire families when we left.
And that was tough. I mean, it was tough.
There's a lot of mourning of leaving that life, that life
where you're, you see your parents reliably when you're
(15:19):
living abroad. You can count on, you know, your
hands sometimes how many times you're going to see your parents
again. You miss growing, seeing your
nieces and nephews grow up the way you might have if you live
there. And so again, that that
conviction that you're in the right place where your little
family, at least for us, we think our kids are in the right
place for the goals we have for them.
(15:41):
Not because it's not America, it's just if they were not
American, it would be probably adifferent country we were in,
maybe even America. But the goals we have for them,
which is global citizenship, language acquisition, living in
an urban place, being able to bemore independent that this place
fits our family values. That's really what gets us
(16:01):
through. But I would be lying if I said
it's not really tough to to see my nieces and nephews once a
year and they've doubled in size.
I mean, that is, there's nothingthere's.
It's just part of it. It's one of those trade-offs
that you really can't get around.
Yeah, no, that's something we'vealways been navigating and it,
it doesn't necessarily get easier.
(16:23):
And as our I know as my parents have aged and you know, or have
had health issues that you just,I do, I feel a sense of, of
guilt missing out. But at the same time, same with
you. We have such a deep
understanding as a core family that we are in the right place
for our family, that is, and we're living our ideal life and
(16:45):
we're, you know, able to travel and, and go back and, and
they're able to, you know, travel to CS And we're so
thankful for that. And same, the, the quality of
the time that we spend with them.
I mean, it's so different when you live 20 minutes away and
it's this quick pop in regular pop insurance where we'll spend
2 weeks with my parents and go on a really nice vacation and
(17:05):
just have a completely differenttype of experience and
relationship together. Yeah.
And it really is. There's something about knowing
that it's finite, that it it puts it on the other end of the
spectrum and you don't take eachother for granted.
But again, it is not for everybody.
Yeah. I I would be lying if I said it
(17:27):
wasn't the worst part of living abroad.
Yeah. It.
Is it's very. It's still hard as you, I know
you are an Angel investor, you're a serial entrepreneur.
How has I don't know your, your,your business opportunities or
considerations of being invested?
Like, how has that changed sinceyou've moved abroad in the last
eight years? Yeah, well, you know, I had a,
(17:50):
my story's interesting because Ihad what I love.
They they're calling like a power pause with my kids.
So I worked in advertising for alot of years and then an Angel
investing and had kind of a weird portfolio already or of,
of skills. And then I took an 8 year break
to be with my kids. And while my partner continued
to build businesses and I continued to invest in other
(18:12):
things, real estate. And so all of those things, all
those skills come into handy, come in handy.
But culture, culture runs through everything.
So investment is no, you know, it's no different.
So the startup scene in Europe is much different than the US.
It's run by different things. The values are different.
(18:34):
And so it's different because I had to learn that like a
language. And I still am learning it.
And I hope I always am learning it because I think what happens
is I bring a unique blend of American experience in an
American startup culture and then an appreciation for what a
European perspective can look like.
But that means I'm always learning and I'm always
translating and I'm always building bridges and asking lots
(18:56):
of questions. And when you, when I moved
abroad, at least my network kindof disappeared in a way.
So I had to rebuild a network here and I'm still doing it.
But I think for me, that's the biggest thing is your network
changes, especially if you're not coming back, if you're not
saying, oh, I'm gone for a year,It's we're like, hey, we're gone
(19:17):
until it's not fun anymore for our family.
And now it's been 8 years. And so I think if, if you do
life the way we do, you're always having to reinvent
yourself or storytell really is storytelling because it is very,
well, it looks like very random.There are values guiding the way
we live our life and the way we invest and the way we do
(19:39):
everything for our family. It's as an integrated whole
human being. So we don't just move for a
career or for family or for things.
It's it's an integrated decisionwith five people that we're
looking after in our family. Yeah.
So but. But it's regulatory.
I mean, in every way, both cultures are different, as you
(20:00):
know. I don't have to tell you.
Yeah. And it's.
So funny because I mean, I know you're in the Netherlands and
we, I haven't, I haven't lived in the Netherlands, but I'm
aware of some of those cultural differences between the Dutch
and the Germans and the Swiss. And I mean, it's really like
we're all in, you know, this onesmall little continent, but you
know, just drive an hour or two and it's like culturally
(20:24):
completely different. And I bet, I bet that's just
within being in Amsterdam versusbeing outside of Amsterdam.
That is like can be culturally really different as well.
So when people call me like, I want to move to Europe, it's
like big, big place, big, big place.
Very, very different environments.
And I would imagine like the Amsterdam startup culture is
(20:45):
different than the Zurich one, which is different when the
Berlin 1. And so, yeah, I agree, it's
endless opportunities to learn and grow.
And I think if you come as an expat with what you have, this
kind of eagerness and willingness to just pour into
your adapted country and to continue to learn, that's I
(21:06):
think really, you know, you'll be successful.
You you'll be able to build something with that.
Yeah. And usually people who have the
best time, what I've, what I've come to conclude is knowing that
you'll never, ever fit in somewhere again.
So you might as well be yourself.
And so that's, I mean, the Houseof Peregrine is about that, that
(21:27):
it's very soulful for me. Peregrine means outsider and
they live on every continent of the world.
But the word means outsider. And, and even when you move back
home, when you repatriate, if you do, you still have this
experience where home was never the same again.
And that's the same with being any kind of career or being a
mom abroad. You end up having more in common
(21:49):
with people from around the world that have the same
experience and maybe the people you grew up with.
Yep. That's been my own like lived
experience as well. So thank you so much for sharing
that. I know we're just about out of
time. I was going to say share a tip,
but like, I think honestly, we'll leave on that because I
think that's such a great point to just accept I'm never really
going to fit in anywhere again. And I'm OK with that.
(22:12):
And you can be and live your authentic self.
I think that's such a great tip.We will be sure to link your
podcast in our show notes as well to make sure people can
find your podcast. Really thank you so much again
Michael. It's been such a pleasure to
have you on our show. Thanks for having me.
Thank you for tuning. In Stay tuned for our upcoming
episodes, packed with insights and stories to empower your.
(22:35):
Global Financial. Journey.
This is passport. To wealth where your financial
future. Knows no borders.
OK. That's it for today, I hope
you've enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on
living internationally, join us at houseofperegrine.com to find
out how you can connect with ourcommunity.
Let's craft our life story with intention.
(22:56):
Together.
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