June 11, 2025 • 60 mins
Nina Aziz Justin is a Malaysian-born, Amsterdam-based strategist and founder of The Resilience Mentor. A TEDx speaker and host of Business Bites with Nina Justin, Nina shares the personal and professional journey that led her from startup life in London and Germany to her current work helping entrepreneurs build sustainable, profitable businesses without burning out or selling out.
This episode explores the tension many purpose-driven founders face: how to hold onto meaning while also making money. Nina speaks candidly about the shame often tied to financial ambition, especially among women, and offers a grounded alternative - one that includes joy, resilience, and systems built for growth.
They also discuss the realities of living abroad, parenting a child with a rare neurological condition, and co-creating a life and business alongside a partner. With honesty and insight, Nina reveals the inner scaffolding she’s built to weather change, navigate grief, and remain rooted in possibility.
Key Moments:
- Why financial sustainability is non-negotiable for founders
- Reframing shame around money and ambition
- Building systems, not routines, in business and marriage
- Nina’s resilience equation from her TEDx talk
- Redefining success as meeting yourself through the journey
- Living a “custom life” and embracing identity transformation
Learn more at theresiliencementor.com or connect with Nina on LinkedIn.
Discover more resources and exclusive perks for internationals with the House of Peregrine app. Visit HouseofPeregrine.com to download and start living a more connected, intentional life today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Michael Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes what we are
all about perfectly. Those that craft their life
story with intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I've
(00:23):
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews, I hope
to connect those living internationally more deeply to
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances. And meaning making.
(00:45):
To global parenting and relationships to make your time
abroad more intentional, edifying and full of beauty.
Find us at houseofperegrine.com where you can find more ways to
connect with the ethos of Peregrine.
I hope you enjoy today's guest. Let's get started.
Hello everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine
(01:06):
podcast. I'm your host, Michael Weber,
and today I'm speaking with NinaAsiz Justin, a resilience
mentor, attraction strategist and TEDx speaker.
Originally from Malaysia and nowbased in Amsterdam, Nina brings
a unique mix of business insightand personal experience to the
conversation. She's spent over 20 years
helping companies grow across more than 40 countries and is
(01:28):
the founder of several ventures herself.
She also hosts her own podcast, Business Bites, where she shares
practical advice for entrepreneurs.
But Nina's work goes beyond strategy.
As a mother navigating life witha daughter who has a rare
neurological condition, she brings a deep personal
understanding of resilience, notjust as a concept, but as a very
real lived experience. In this episode, we talk about
(01:51):
navigating change, building a business with sustainability in
mind, and how personal experiences shape the way we
show up professionally. It's a thoughtful, honest
conversation about what it meansto keep going and stay grounded
through uncertainty. Thank you so much for joining
me, Nina. Thank you for having me,
Mikhail. Today I want to start out.
(02:14):
You have so many facets that you're sharing with the world,
which is actually really rare, Ihave to say.
People will say brave, but I want to say also rare because as
a professional woman, we are told to leave things at home,
right? And so I love that you bring all
at least a lot more of the aspects of your story to the
table and so that we can learn and grow with you.
(02:34):
So, but I want to start first bytalking about professionally.
Tell me what this means Attraction specialist if you
wouldn't mind. Basically, this is my focus in
my work. I try my best to bring all
aspects of business into one focus of alignment point, which
(02:55):
is traction. And this is about running a
business which is beyond purposeand beyond meaning.
That means it's going to also reward you in financial terms
because it is a business. Because what happened quite
often is that we find ourselves focused on purpose and meaning
yet and not creating a business that is financially rewarding.
(03:20):
And this is what I'm trying to do in my daily life when I work
with entrepreneurs is just to make sure that they are
financially rewarded at the earliest point in their business
journey so that they can keep growing as a person and as a
business. Because as you know, 9 out of 10
businesses actually fail due to this.
And not I want to, we'll get into your personal story, but
(03:42):
this is actually something that is very rarely talked about, I
would say. And so I love that you have
insight into this because often we're told in startup land like
sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice,sleep on your couch, do all this
stuff. And this is maybe possible when
you're at university, you have all the time in the world to
pursue something like this. But that's not true.
(04:06):
Actually being paid and actuallywatching out for both, it's been
called the double bottom line before.
Or watching out for both of those things, meaning and
purpose and sustainability and your own personal financial.
Those two things are hard. They're on 2 separate sides of.
It can be seen as they're on 2 separate sides of the spectrum,
(04:26):
but I think you might have a different answer.
I think they are connected because you cannot call your
work a business if it's not going to be financially
rewarding. Because ultimately, yes, you
will learn a lot, you will grow a lot, you will experience a
lot, but you will not be able tohave that as something that you
(04:49):
can continue to grow and build over the years.
Also for your own sake. I mean, obviously some people
started a business because they have a very deep pocket, but is
that really a business? We can always accept that there
will be a period when you will not be making a lot of money.
But if you are running a business and while you are still
(05:13):
trying the different business modules and you're still like
prototyping, there could be, youknow, some leeways to not look
at your business only as a moneymaking machine.
But at some point you have to start making money.
And my work is basically to kindof like inject some form of
reality into that journey and make sure that while we are
(05:34):
pivoting and prototyping and trying different business
modules, we are still going to go for that financial reward as
an officer. Because if you just use your
purpose and meaning and, and joy, which is, which are all
good, you will not be able to sustain that for much longer
(05:57):
than let's say three years unless you have deep pockets and
you can throw money constantly into that equation.
Even if you have an investor, that investor will ask you for
some financial performance. So I think it's, it's basically
making sure that as an entrepreneur, everyone who goes
(06:18):
into that game understands that the goal of the game is still
financially related. And it's not just purpose,
meaning sustainability, impact, resonance and all that beautiful
stuff that we do everyday too, but we have to do that because
we can't sustain ourselves financially.
And with that in mind, we can domore and help.
(06:42):
Yeah, yeah. Do you find yourself navigating
a lot of shame to get people to that point or what would you say
is the number one block for people in that owning A owning
or operating a business that's maybe passion LED or something
that comes from themselves? When you say when you use the
word shame and you say shame, isit because money is something
(07:02):
that is seen as dirty or? Yeah, well, that's what I've
experienced with particularly women and maybe some men that
are purpose LED. That's been my number one
impression and something I've worked with in myself as well.
But I don't know if you see it more widely or if it's just
something that I'm saying because it's part of my journey.
Of course, it's not very OK. It's also like, you know, I'm
(07:25):
also raising them in an Asian culture where, you know,
speaking about money so openly is not considered classy or
graceful. But I'm not talking about money
in that way. I'm talking about money as as an
indicator of your performance here.
It's not the only indicator of performance, but it is still an
(07:49):
indicator of performance. If you're running a business, if
you decide to enter the game, let's say if you want to compete
in a 100 meters race, you have to understand it is still a race
and it is still the distance that you have to make.
And that's the same with the business.
If you want to be in business and you want to call your
venture a business and not a nonprofit organization, then you
(08:12):
need to steal. Be aware that is a very big
indicator of your performance ofevery single effort you put in
there. Every minute you spend, every
dollar you spend, it has to be translatable into something that
would generate more of that. Let's say if you put $1.00, it
(08:34):
has to generate another dollar at minimum, you know.
Yeah, and that's the game. So know the game you're playing.
And I think that I've had this experience of being a woman
founder of founder of someone who's a founder and then people
assume I'm running a non profit and not a for profit company,
(08:56):
which has been a very interesting experience.
Is that because you're a female founder or is it because I don't
know what you're doing? Is something that is very close
to your meaning, your purpose and top like something that's
close to your heart? Is that an assumption or is it
Is it something that you truly feel?
(09:18):
Yeah, it's interesting because my partner Doug, he has always
had his own companies that he starts and then sells and
they're very close to his heart and he'll say that, but no one
ever asks them if they're a nonprofit.
So it's been my experience that that's the difference.
Maybe it's how we talk about it.Maybe it's it doesn't matter
what it is, but it's just been avery interesting journey to have
(09:39):
to answer that question more often than maybe he does.
He works the software for children that is very close to
his heart and his story, his ownpersonal story.
And so it just, it always has made me curious, maybe a little
bit angry, but now I just see asan opportunity to to explain
more about my business. Yeah.
(10:00):
And so when you work with a business or a founder, you're
really going into showing them the game they're playing,
finding ways to make the business more profitable, which
is the game you're playing to have to make money that's part
of the game you're playing. And then let them also hold
their purpose. Is that do I have that right?
(10:23):
Well, your purpose is always your starting point, right?
You can't do anything well unless your heart is in it,
right? So there is no question about
the purpose and the big picture.But we're talking about systems,
we're talking about mindset. And if you have a really big
(10:44):
dream but you have no system, you don't have the right
mindset, you don't have the tools to achieve this dream,
It's just a dream. And this is what is happening in
quite a few companies where theyare just living a dream, but
that dream will not be sustainable, just like
(11:07):
everything else that you know. And, and I think going back to
your initial question, do I have, do I feel shame?
I say no, not at all. I think I, I think a lot of
people are ashamed because they are hiding behind something else
that's not they did probably have fear.
And that fear is and cloth in something that we think is
(11:27):
shameful to talk about money. No, you fear to actually take on
this journey 100%. That means I I like this, but I
don't know if I like it too much.
Enough to that so that I can make a lot of money.
I don't know. So you can choose it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I find that owning that from
(11:47):
myself saying like, no, I this, I'm in this to make money like
that. That was a that's really hard to
say and really hard for people to hear when that conversation
comes up. And so I think it's just really
interesting, so. So then you can do more, you can
do bigger things. I mean, if you are struggling to
make ends meet for yourself and also to feel valued, to feel,
(12:10):
hey, I am, you know, I'm growinghere.
I have numbers in my bank account to show that and I can
inject some of that into more, you know, things for my business
and more opportunities for otherpeople to work for my
organization and provide a bigger platform for many more
peregrines than you know, I mean.
Makes no sense. It makes no sense, Yeah.
(12:31):
You know there are organizationsthat are doing that
not-for-profit, right? I mean, but that's not you.
Right. Yes, exactly, exactly.
And that's basically what I say.There are people doing this.
That's just not what we're doingand it's important and I respect
it. So I want to back up because you
have so many rich layers of yourstory.
You've worked in startups for a very long time, like in a really
(12:56):
where which I love how you're speaking from this place of
wisdom and getting people to thenext level because you're right,
it does have to start with passion.
That's a really good place to start a startup, But then it has
to change and you've seen the result of that not changing and
it's, it's not pleasant. It's not good for anybody.
For sure. You learn lessons, like you
(13:17):
said, but you also have this really rich experience.
So you have that experience you're bringing to the table and
then you have this experience ofliving abroad most of your adult
life. And so we started out with the
business stuff because I'm supereager to get into that with you.
But if we can take a moment justto tell your story of growing up
(13:37):
in Malaysia, ending up helping all the people in 40 / 40
countries with our business, andthen to where you are today.
OK, so we'll start from Ground Zero.
I I'm Malaysian, so I've been raised in a sort of a
progressive Muslim family where faith, family, freedom all kind
(13:59):
of makes into one. I have always been encouraged to
be independent. My mother has always been a
career woman, so I do not have another role model as a mother.
And that could be a good or a bad thing 'cause my mom worked
really hard as she could not imagine.
(14:19):
And I think this is her own legacy issue because her mother
did not work and all her life she was just like, I'm never
going to stay home. I'm going to be a working woman
and I will not quit my job for my children.
This is not my thing. So I didn't have a mother who
was like living at home, taking care of me or cooking and all
that stuff. I didn't have that.
(14:40):
So my role mother was a working mom.
So I was raised with that. Despite the fact that obviously
I have the strong Asian stroke Muslim values, it's still quite
loose in my case, you know, I was raised with honor and grace
and and also not forgetting my roots.
But apart from that, you go girl, basically.
(15:01):
So I, I've always wanted to go abroad as a child.
I don't know whether that is an ancestral thing or is it because
my, my mom has a younger brotherwho studied in England and he
gave me when I was six or seven years old, a little Panzer case
(15:21):
in the shape of a double Decker bus.
It's like a red pencil case. And somehow that just planted
the seed in me. I wanted to go and study in
England. So I had that in my mind, like,
OK, this is what I want. I want to go to London to sit on
the double Decker bus. And I thought, I'm too young to
(15:42):
even introduce that topic to my parents, but I had it since I
was young that I'm going to go there and study that because I
didn't know that you could do anything else because my uncle
was studying in England. So I was like, I'm also going to
go there and I'm going to sit onthis double Decker bus, which is
what I did when I made it happenwhen I was 18.
I arrived in London and the first thing I did was actually
(16:02):
went on the double Lecter bars because that's what I always
wanted to do since I was a kid. So there is this deep yearning
for seeing the world. And I think studying in England
gave me that additional layer ofliving in a multicultural
environment, you know, London inthe 90s.
London has changed now since Brexit, but in the 90s it was
(16:24):
different. I mean, I would sit on a tube to
go to uni next to people of different races and I really
enjoyed that very, very much. I just felt like I could be more
than just what I thought I was, not that I was small and there
was nothing wrong with my culture.
(16:44):
I wasn't fighting a war. I was not looking for economic
gains. At the time, the Asian economy
was booming. I would have had a leap in my
career if I had gone home. But I remember when I graduated,
my parents were like, yeah, I mean, isn't it time to come
home? And I wanted to go to France.
I mean, my husband's now my husband's French, but I didn't
(17:06):
know I was going to marry a French guy at the time.
And I was like, no, I want to goto France to study French.
And they were, they didn't understand, they were like, why,
why do you need to speak French,right?
So actually I just wanted to have another adventure, another,
another exposure, another layer.And I came back to London, work
in England. And then, you know, the Internet
(17:29):
first one point O Internet so you can do the maths.
I'm not young. I'm 100 years old, to be exact,
started, you know, and I joined a startup then.
So my startup journey started inthe 90s.
So I'm like the OG of the startup world.
And yeah, so that that's like how it panned out for me.
(17:52):
I did not plan to stay on this long, but every time there was a
new opportunity and new ways of doing things, new ways of
expanding and becoming. And I went with that.
And not without any grief, of course.
But yeah, that's just how my life has played out until today.
(18:12):
And one of the other things I wanted to do when I was younger
also was to, to see the world and, and, and to work in many
countries. So when I started in the first
startup in London, it was a German funded, it's a huge
German media company that fundedthat startup.
And when we grew, I was promotedto go and work at the head
(18:34):
office in Germany. So from London I was in France,
back to London and then went to Germany.
And you know, that gave me my dream again, which was to work
internationally and I was heading the news channel and the
personalization technology licensing in 14 countries.
So then I started my international career.
(18:56):
So everything you could say, I was lucky, of course, but
everything came from that yearning that I had to see the
world and to believe that I can do this.
And then I will upset some people and I will upset my mom
and nobody would understand my choices, you know?
But this is something that I wanted to do.
(19:17):
So in a way, you know I live my dreams.
Yeah, that's incredible. And that it started so young,
six and seven years old, That's,that's an an incredible feeling.
And I, I do believe that we havethis at least partially
innately, because I just remember when I was that young
(19:38):
too, wanting to learn a language, so desperately wanting
to live abroad and, and no one else had this dream.
It's just like, why, Why would you want to do that?
And so that is, it's a beautifulstory.
Thank you so much for sharing. So then ultimately you met your
partner Justin in France? No, we met each other in Hong
(19:58):
Kong at a work conference, you know, because I've, you know,
I've worked internationally and he, he also works
internationally. So you kind of meet people who
aren't just like you. And that's what makes it all
exciting and addictive and hard on this.
(20:20):
Jenny Yeah, and. Yeah.
When you say like you, you don'tneed other Malaysians.
You don't mean other. He does like you.
When you say like you, you meet other people like you.
What do you mean? I meet other Malaysians as well.
Yeah, but not just sharing a cultural background.
You know, yeah, Yeah, that's a good question, Mikael, because,
(20:41):
yeah, what are who are people like me?
I think it's like when you move,you transform, right?
You transform. You know, a mind that has been
stretched could not go back to the state that it was.
It's not possible. It's your mind.
It's neuroplasticity. It's not possible.
So with any move, you have to gothrough an identity crisis.
(21:09):
So when you say people like you,who are they?
I'm like, I don't know. That's like we're talking about
identity here. And identity is integral to this
particular experience of people like you, like me and many
others who move from one place to that your identity will be
questioned. And then at some point people
say like, who are you talking about?
(21:29):
And you're like, you know, so that's identity, that's growth,
that's transformation. And yeah, people who probably
have had similar experiences, they may not be the same, but
people who already become someone, which is like this
tapestry, this patchwork of lotsof different places and people
(21:54):
and cultures and values. And yeah, that's the identity.
So, yeah. I met my husband at a work
conference in Hong Kong. He is French.
At the time he was living in NewYork and we have this long
distance relationship for a while.
And now we are here and you know, that's, that's our life.
(22:15):
That's our life story. And our kids are, you know,
maybe you know that they're here.
Yep, yeah, Yep. And that's, that's the that that
you can't explain it. It's just time to go somewhere.
It's time to be with someone. And that's living a different
kind of life. It's a, it's an, it's an
examined life or a passion LED life or a so I just think it's,
(22:36):
it's very beautiful to hear these stories and hear other
people reflect what other guestson this podcast have even said.
So they've never met, but I've met them and they're saying the
same thing, which is really beautiful.
So I want to talk about your most recent.
Thank you for that, by the way. Thank you for going into that
with me. It's one of my great joys in
life to be able to hear people, to find themselves.
(23:00):
I can't define myself Michaela. Yeah, no, but I mean you, you
have, you have and it's and it'sin a very think reflecting back,
it's about not, not being held back, living your dream, but not
more than that feeling into a new kind of dream and being
willing to do that multiple times in your life.
(23:22):
I allow myself to evolve. Yeah.
Basically, yeah, I, yeah, I thisis not something that I have
thought through when I was younger, when I made my first
start, like the adventure journey.
And of course, when I moved to Germany, it was totally
different experience than when Iwas in London because then I had
(23:43):
to embrace my identity again in a totally different way because
Germany is less multicultural, at least when I was.
And now it's changing also. And I wasn't in Berlin because
Berlin would have been a little bit similar to London.
But where I was, I was the only brown person in the city.
But then I embraced that, and I didn't have any bad experience
(24:07):
from that. Yeah, maybe that's why I'm still
here. And I'm not discouraged, you
know, this fight, this fight, this kind of diverse
experiences. And.
Yeah. And I think I allowed myself to
evolve without really, you know,being young, you don't really
think too much. You just want to do things.
But now when I look back on it, and I think that's the beauty of
(24:28):
hindsight, it's like, OK, I allowed myself that.
Yeah. I leave some space for wonder in
my life. Yeah.
And do you find that? So I want to ask this carefully
because it brings up things, butlike were you a difficult child?
I say this with love because I was a difficult child.
I. Wasn't difficult in the sense
(24:49):
like I was disobedient. Look, I'm Asian, right?
I mean, I don't know how much you know about Asian upbringing.
We're not supposed to be so openly rebellious.
We have to respect like there isGod and then there's your
parents and then there's you. OK, so there is a strata in the
in the your existence as an Asian child.
(25:11):
My parents were, you know, very progressive.
So there's a lot of space for mein that time even.
But I think I started becoming alittle bit more difficult when I
was in London. I think when my parents asked me
when are you coming back? I didn't like that question
because I think I've outgrown mymold in a way.
(25:33):
I mean, this sounds like I'm saying that the Malaysian mold
is so small. It's not the case.
But I've changed. I've become somebody else, and I
couldn't really reconcile the two worlds.
And I think for my parents, theyprobably thought, oh, I have
become rebellious, or I'm confused, or I didn't know my
(25:53):
identity, which could all be true, too.
And there could have been also some cultural frictions or
misunderstanding in that processbecause they had to understand
me. They've never encountered a
child like me, You know, I'm also the first born.
Yeah. There's a lot of guilt on my
side, a lot of guilt which I'm sure is familiar for many people
(26:13):
who leave their families like you.
You always have guilt and you always have grief.
Grief is part of that process, part of the journey, I would
say, from time to time. And yeah, I went through all
that and it became harder for them when I decided to marry a
foreigner when I have my children abroad, because
suddenly the ideas that they have of me ever coming home
(26:36):
again is diminishing as the years go by.
Yeah, so their dream is having to transform as well.
Yeah, I mean, they had to allow themselves to evolve too.
Yes. Yeah.
And that's the fun of being a, You don't even have to be a
cycle breaker, but someone who'sallowing this, allowing at least
(26:57):
from my own personal journey hasbeen one, a bit of a Crucible of
allowing yourself to evolve has been a Crucible and a constant
theme in my life. So when I meet someone who's
also been through that and it seems like it's just been not as
much of A Crucible for you, it makes me just so happy to see.
Well, you know, now telling thisstory and we're on this podcast
(27:20):
and, you know, we are all Ted speakers.
It sounds so polished and nice, but the process, the little
steps through this journey has not always been smooth.
Yeah. Yes, no, it's not when you're in
it, there's no, you have no ideawhy you're in it, but but then
when you step back. So let's talk about you.
So I've never had a fellow Ted TEDx speaker on the podcast.
(27:44):
We've both, yeah, we've both hadthat experience, which is
another, I don't know about you,but it was a life changing,
affirming, destroying experiencethat then built back into
something else. And so tell me, I want to hear
about yours. We can include your talk in the
show notes, but tell me what it was about.
Well, in my Ted talk, I spoke about resilience, which is my
(28:07):
brand. Of course, I call myself the
Resilience mentor. And it's actually not a brand
that I came up on my own or cameup with on my own.
It was developed by a branding agency based on my life story
and so on. And it was to differentiate
myself from other business coaches or mentors or whatever
consultants. So I'm really specialized and,
and my thing is about resiliencebuilding for sustainability.
(28:30):
So my talk was actually called the resilience equation.
So I spoke about resilience and the parallel between raising a
special needs child and being a startup founder or having had
the startup life, you know, and there are several parallels and
it's a mathematical equation which I hope could be applied by
(28:54):
anyone facing any kind of struggle in their lives.
Basically, it's time, give yourself time multiplied by
beginners mindset or in my equation, I call it startup
mindset. You know, you are starting out,
you don't know many things. You have to start from a place
of no assumption and willingnessto discover and allow yourself
to go through that journey. And then, you know, close
(29:16):
bracket because it's the mathematical equation to the
power of incremental action. So it's like taking little
steps, incremental steps, doing small things.
You know, it's basically the principle of happy and learning.
You learn, you rewire your brainwhen you do it repetitively and
in small steps. So there are stories that are
woven into this equation. And that's really based on my
(29:39):
startup life and my journey raising my second daughter, who
is a special needs child with a red neurological condition.
Because there no one could have helped us because when she was
diagnosed, she was one in 21 in the world.
But in the Netherlands, they were just like, yeah, sorry.
I mean, you can tell us how she will develop.
(30:01):
You can come back and feed your information into this system.
But no one could help us. And when we were trying to place
her at school, they didn't even know where to put her.
Like, which school do you want to put her into?
So that was a very difficult journey.
And it remains that way. But I have to adopt A new
(30:23):
mindset. So what I have had to do was to
build the inner scaffolding, so to speak, to sustain a life that
I thought we should all still have.
That is like, I'm not giving up my job because as I mentioned, I
don't have this role model. And you know, and that's also
(30:44):
how the resilience mentor, the business that I have today was
born. I only came about after Isabel's
diagnosed diagnostic and not before that.
Before that, I was running my own startups.
And you know, I think that's, that's what I meant by allowing
myself to evolve because, you know, that's, that's the
journey. I mean, and I don't think this
is you need a special needs child to learn that or you need
(31:06):
anything catastrophic to happen to you.
I think it's, it's in a small way and in a big way what we
should allow ourselves to do everyday to build this inner
scaffolding by giving us a time learn with the view of like, I
don't know, everything. I can still learn new things and
I can do small things and build on that.
And so that's the whole talk basically.
(31:28):
Amazing. Well, and it, it occurs to me as
you're speaking and what I hear reflected is that you don't have
an area of your life where you're not applying that because
when you're going to a new country, you have this equation
works and you've done this many times starting in a new country,
when you have a startup, this isessential.
And when you have a, you have a special needs child or even just
(31:53):
being a parent in general, this is a very sustainable way of
going through being a parent because you are doing everything
for the first time. But having a special like your
story is so specific in having no Rd. you have no path.
You are making the path. And that is that's incredible
(32:14):
that that's playing out over andover in your story.
There is no path. You're making the path.
I think for many people, this isthis situation.
It's just that we believe, let'ssay, when I was raising my first
daughter with before Isabel, Kate, Camilla, I thought I could
do that easily because she's it's just a neurotypical.
(32:36):
But every child is unique, right?
And you are different also. You have to combine your work,
your your dreams, your relationship with your husband
or you move to another country. There's always a new mix in the
equation. Yeah.
And I think one thing that most people forget is to give
(32:56):
themselves the time, the luxury of time, because we are often
fed with this idea that if you're smart, you could figure
it all out. I mean, no figuring out.
Sometimes you know it's on the job.
Yeah. And it occurs to me that this is
actually what you're bringing this home, actually helping
(33:18):
businesses become businesses, having the capital they need,
being profitable is actually giving them more time.
That's what you're actually partof what that is, is giving them
more time. And that feeds into this
equation that is, is pivotal to your success and that you're
sharing with others, which I think is just so beautiful and
(33:39):
so beautifully woven. And, and it comes from a place
of deep knowing, which I think is, yeah, I think it makes you
stand out. Yeah, well, thank you for saying
that. I appreciate that.
But to be very honest, all I know is that we can all have
microjoys. I don't go for big joys now.
(33:59):
I mean, that will be a bonus, you know.
But because I know we can all have microjoys, I focus on that.
I mean, and I don't have this idea of hassle free life anymore
in my life. It's not possible for me.
It's not available to me. I hope for for other other
people, they can have that. But I I also believe I wouldn't,
(34:20):
I wouldn't have grown. And when I look at my life
journey, I think when I have, you know, switch somewhere
where, you know, it's called self development at scale.
It's like think that was when Isabel was diagnosed and that
was really hard and I had to embrace that.
(34:41):
And it is yet again another journey.
Yeah, it got better with time for sure.
And would you describe these microjoys as part of living with
resilience and vitality? Like is there, is there a point
when vitality goes into the equation?
Because I think at least in my life and in startups and in
parenting, resilience is sometimes translated into
(35:03):
everything's hard all the time. And when you say you're
injecting these micro allowing or planning or expecting these
moments of micro joy, that leadsme to wonder about resilience
and making sure that we watch, we put that in the equation.
Yeah, yeah. Do you really believe that we
should expect things to be hard all the time in a startup?
(35:25):
That that what I've seen and canbe a trap is that this is if
we're not having a hard time, ifwe're not strapped for money, if
we're not going after, not growing.
And this is sometimes fueled by investors too.
If you're not pushing as hard asyou can, you're not going to
(35:45):
meet your potential if you're not going to be able to compete
and vitality is not in the equation, it's not on the
balance sheet, right? And sometimes not even a large
enough paycheck for founders is on the balance sheet for some
investors. And of course, that's changing.
And so I think it has potentially been part of part of
startup culture that being resilient means that you're
(36:09):
striving all the time. You suffer you.
Suffer, yeah. Yeah, I refuse to accept that
because I believe in the power of my mind.
You know, I have proven cases for the power of my mind now
because, you know, I said I wanted to do this and I had the
chance every time, including, you know, speaking at Ted.
(36:29):
When I saw you on that stage, like a few weeks after your
talk, I had a coffee with you, remember?
Yeah, I did. Like, it must be quite nice to
speak at Ted. I really want to have that
opportunity one day. And the year after that, I spoke
at Ted. So for this, I think your
mindset is so important. Your mindset is part of that
(36:49):
inner scaffolding for resiliencethat you need to build.
Expecting suffering is is dangerous.
I think you can expect the journey not be as you envisage
because that's the. Who never is.
That never is right. But expecting suffering, that's
(37:11):
a big powerful thought. I would expect joy.
OK. Just to change the mindset like
there is some, there is a littleor there are plenty of micro
moments of joy. You expect first year, second
year to be trying, but you do not expect suffering.
(37:36):
Yeah. And I love, I love to hear you
say that so much because I've been saying it for 20 years.
This is like this is just foxic mindset.
I cannot encourage that because that is not a growth mindset.
Yes, but it's also suffering forfor high financial payoff is a
uniquely, potentially uniquely American belief.
(37:58):
Really. But how often does this happen?
How often does this big financial payoff happen to
people who expect suffering? Yes, I total and I, I think
there's something in the zeitgeist.
We don't need to go like I can go into the collective mindset
of a lot of things, but we won'tgo there today.
But I do think that there is a very important part of building
(38:23):
something that is completely custom, completely based on your
life. That includes moving countries,
having the relationship you want, having the business you
want, having the life you want is never going to be just
smooth. And so this resilience that
you're Speaking of, isn't it an incredibly potent, if not
essential part of being successful, whatever that looks
(38:45):
like for you. And so having a custom life, I
always call it having a custom life instead of following the
path that others have laid out for you.
And that's in business, in partnership, in life and where
you live. I think it's it's such a
beautiful thing to know. You're going to have to
cultivate if it's not in there innately.
(39:06):
Custom life, I like that, and I think custom life comes from the
recognition of the fact that life needs you to embrace change
and to be flexible and to adapt,right, So you can customize it.
What the essence of the word customize means you need to
(39:27):
adapt it to something, right? Adaptation can mean discomfort,
friction or whatever. But you it's it's also time that
will ease everything, right? In my opinion.
But I do strongly suggest if someone expects to suffer so
much to get a high paycheck to get out of that lane.
(39:51):
No, no, just get out of that lane because the paycheck will
come because you have had to pivot several times.
And that is customization, that's a that's flexibility and
you will pivot so many times to get to that paycheck, not you
will suffer, I don't know, resilient sufferings.
(40:12):
I mean, I mean, I don't know. I mean, personally I will not
recommend that. No, I wouldn't either.
But we do see, I mean, at least in my circles, in the news, that
most people who have done had a lot of success have suffered in
their personal life as a result.Life.
Oh, you mean personal life, not just.
Also life. Yeah, Also personal.
Life. Yes, you need a very strong
(40:34):
partner in life for this of life.
Yeah. And also as I think as an
international, you have to have a strong partner as a startup
founder. You have to have a strong
partner as someone parenting a child with special needs or
children at all. And you and Justin have have
done that. Do you want to tell me a little
bit anything about that? You guys are both kind of in the
same And I, I look up to that because we're both my partner
(40:57):
and I are both in the same, bothin startups and that is unique.
It's usually one stable partner,one, yeah, startup founder.
You guys definitely have done ittoo, right?
I mean, you know, you, you uprooted your whole family to a
new country, put your children through a new system, new
language. You didn't know anyone here
(41:20):
apart from maybe people, one or two people.
I don't, I don't know your background story, but we, I
mean, I have to be very honest. I mean, you know, David and I,
we are a very, very good, you know, solid partners in our life
journey. But it's not like it's not
because we always are on the same page.
(41:41):
It's just that we both understand each other's power.
How you know? We understand that.
That stop, pause there. I thought you were going to say
the normal thing. We communicate.
We share a vision. There's those are important.
Say this again and please explain this because I believe
no one in the world has ever said what you're saying.
(42:02):
We understand each other's powerand if they have, we're going to
say it again and it's going to be Nina Justin because we
understand each other's power. Please talk about that.
That is an amazing thing to say.I haven't really thought through
that when I say that, but I'm I'm saying exactly what how I I
feel about my marriage. I think my marriage is not
perfect. We are both.
(42:23):
Thank God it's not. Thank you so much.
We're both individuals, but we understand each other's power.
And he knows who I am and you know, and I know who he is.
And there's no, there's no Gray zone there.
I mean, we're clear about that. And right now and for the
longest time, he knows that I'm an entrepreneur.
I cannot go back to corporate world.
(42:43):
I have been there. I'm not doing it again because
that's not where I would shine and that's not where I feel
where I belong. OK, I may not have a place where
I belong, but my home is within and that is where I am.
I need to be here. I need to hang out with
entrepreneurs. I need to constantly do things
and and be challenged mentally. And he is, he has a bit of that
(43:06):
too. He's also an entrepreneur.
You know that. But he's also better than me in
other spaces. As parents, we are both with the
same values. We have not from the same
culture. We're not from the same race.
We grew up on the opposite sidesof the world.
(43:27):
He's from a really strong Catholic family.
I'm from progressive Muslim family.
But we have the same values. Well, yeah.
And that that is a normal thing.Sharing values that is a normal.
Oh yeah, definitely. Whether you come up with them or
you come with them, that's normal.
But how does this value play this this having the same values
(43:49):
play out when you're both pursuing really intense things
in your career? Or is this a knowing that you'll
step up for the other once it calms down?
Do you structure things a certain way?
There's no map for this. I have to say.
There's no map for for this level of collaboration in a
professional life with startup founders. 2 in a marriage.
(44:13):
A journey without a map. That's indeed how we should
describe this journey, your journey and mine.
Yep, Yep. Some call them Trail Blazers, if
I can say that about myself. Something that I've been very
reluctant to accept as something.
But yeah. We can own them.
It's OK. And I think when it comes to
certain things, it's very clear always that the family comes
(44:36):
first. So that family Trump's
everything else. Everything else is negotiable,
of course. Defined everything.
More often I'm saying, Hey, I'm carrying too much, you know, you
need to to care, take some, but you know, but this is a sort of
a husband and wife cliche scenario.
What is negotiable. I think David is pretty lay by
(44:57):
actually what matters to me. Like I I pay more attention to
like creating beautiful moments and his guy and he's like, OK,
you do that. I mean, you know, I don't care.
But would you say that he valuesthat and you and appreciates it?
He likes it. Yeah.
Yes, he likes it. Yeah, he likes.
It so. So he sees it, he appreciates
it, he values it. That's important.
(45:18):
Yes, yes, he does. I think that has become his norm
now. But if I'm tired and I say, oh,
I I'm not doing that, he's also OK with that.
So it helps that he's actually quite laid back.
So when it comes to work, we areboth like, yeah, like I need to
do my thing. And there's a lot of negotiation
about like, you know, are you going to pick up Isabel or am I?
(45:41):
You know, but we've, we have created a system.
So that's also something that I would encourage people who want
to live this kind of lifestyle to think about.
You need a system, not a routine.
You need a system. So you need to have a system and
you need to ask early and ask clearly.
(46:02):
Not like ambiguity and you know.No, you need to ask early and
ask clearly and create a system.And once you have established a
system, sometimes you need to tweak it here and then, but the
system will help you navigate. This and what is?
What is the difference? So a routine would look like, I
(46:25):
know every day he picks up Isabel, this day, this day,
that's a routine. And what, what is a system?
Describe or maybe describe your system or what you would name
your system if you had to name it.
You need more than just you pickup Isabel that day you have.
So you're not talking about logistics.
That's not what you're talking about.
This is talking about is it talking about values, talking
(46:45):
about limits, talking about goals and then making a system
around that which looks like my work is non negotiable.
Your work is non negotiable. So we have that.
Family comes first, though. Family comes first, yeah.
So that that's the, those are the non negotiables.
So you come up with the non negotiables family first.
Our work is equal. Those are the non negotiables,
(47:07):
but everything else inside of that is negotiable.
Is that how you'd say the system?
Well, the system is always like also we are one.
We are, we are always going to be the other person's biggest
advocate, biggest supporter, no question about that.
Also, like it's just like to give an example, which is easier
for other people to understand. It's like not just you pick up
(47:29):
is about something happens and you can't pick up is about what
is the backup. We don't, we don't, I mean, of
course there will be situations when we will be, you know, like
taken by surprise and say that we don't have a backup for the
situation. But for their routine, for the
common situations, there should be a backup.
You should know, you know, because now for example, he's
(47:50):
travelling a lot. So I am the main key, you know,
carer of Isabel because he's notoften in the Netherlands and I
have two babysitters. Babysitters, you know, there is
a system like he would check like if I'm OK or not.
You know, you need that. You need to check in every day
so that we don't grow apart and we just, you know, acting like
(48:12):
Co parent or Co financiers or Coliving partner because that's
easy to get into without realizing what we're doing,
especially, you know, when we both are, you know, re driven.
Yeah, yeah. And that it has been one of the
like this happens with every relationship where your romantic
(48:33):
relationship can maybe be subverted and then maybe brought
back to life. But when you're operating at
this level of again, this system, your romantic
relationship has to be put in that system.
I. Guess yes.
And that's not date nights. That's not, I mean, maybe it is,
but it's it's talking about fidelity.
It's talking about all the very uncomfortable things that if
(48:55):
you're in that well worn path can be assumed.
But when you're making a new system, you have to talk about
and consider a lot more, I think.
Yeah, not always easy to navigate though, because that's
a topic that he doesn't really want to talk about.
You know, it's like, oh, do we have to talk about that?
And I'm like, yes, because I, I,I need to feel safe, right?
(49:17):
And it's not like we have to talk about it every day or we
have to talk about it all the time.
But when I need to talk about itor when he needs to deal with
some situations or some topics, you know, because I am his
number one supporter, I need you, you know, I need to buy
into that. And it's not just to assume that
I'm just going to do whatever you know you want me to do.
(49:39):
Yeah, In our system, I always say family comes first.
But before that, lover status comes absolute first for us to
still be married because we can do a lot together.
We're very, very. We're each other's biggest
collaborators as well, sometimesprofessionally as well.
And so for me, family comes second, honestly.
(50:01):
And that that is very important to our balance and that's unique
to to us, not to any other. I wouldn't say I'd recommend
that because it does sound like I'm saying our kids are second,
which I'm not saying no. I understand you.
I understand that's. What I'm saying is for me, being
lover, being a lover comes firstfor us to keep this arrangement
(50:22):
the way it is and then our family, then our businesses,
then, you know, I mean the hierarchy then gets very.
But for me, that was a very big moment when I realized that and
had and brought that on board and accepted it because it felt
very selfish, icky, young, desperate.
But I was like, no, this is how I gain energy as an entrepreneur
(50:42):
and a creative is having this asa goal and so.
It's important that you you ask for what you need.
Yeah, I think I think that's that's cool.
I mean, I'm not. I also think it's an important
point you raised because I remember when I had my first
daughter, I said I come first. And most people were like,
(51:02):
shocked, like, you now have a child.
Why do you say that? But I'm like, but before she was
born, it was me. And now I have two and I still
have a located space where I come first in this part.
I come first, you know, and thenthem.
Yeah. And I think with David and I,
why I say family comes first is because I, I know I said it to
(51:28):
him. I'm never going to divorce.
This is just how it is. If you're not, if you're not
going to make family first, you're going to have to suffer.
So we're going to work on the like keeping the family, you
know, that means within that we have to love each other.
We have to have the system that works for our family.
We need to make whatever choice we make is for the family to
(51:49):
stay intact. Yeah.
And it's heavy when you put something else which is outside
of you to be before you. But when I say family, it's not
my kids. It's the system.
It's the system that we have. Yeah, that's part of us.
It's part of that. That's so beautiful and I love
in this space of Co creating a custom life and a custom system
(52:13):
that different words mean different things in your system.
Your system has unique names andI love that.
And I think any couple or familywho's navigating moving abroad
or having an entrepreneurship orhaving any, it's very beautiful
to me that that we get to make our own systems.
I think that that's true. Then that's probably what I'm
most proud of in my life. Yeah, that is true.
(52:36):
Is that system and everything grows from that.
Honestly, anything we do lives or dies by the strength of our
system or our custom created whatever we're creating
together. And I think that that for me
also needs resistance or resilience.
And having that within a romantic relationship is not
(52:56):
also a skill that we have, and it breaks a lot of marriages up.
Yeah. When you live abroad or have a
startup or have a child or a child with special needs, like
any of the subjects that we're talking about today, need this
equation. Lethal, lethal combination.
You know, it's like, how do you play with fire?
No, no, no, we don't talk about how.
(53:18):
We talk about how big is that fire now?
Yes. Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, as
we, as we have mentioned before in this conversation, we have to
allow ourselves to evolve and that whole system keeps evolving
too. And kids grow up and we will go
through stages of life where we will have different needs as
(53:39):
well as a cup in a couple situation as a person and as as
a woman. I think, you know, now I have
different needs than I did before.
I mean, you know, like after like you hit 40, you want to
ground a bit more and stabilize a bit more.
And then you start thinking about legacy.
(53:59):
You start thinking about, you know, what do I leave behind?
What do I 1 still in my life? What do I still want to create
that again in the relationship dynamic, you still both of you
have to find each other again. And I think one thing that David
and I constantly try to do now at our age is to find each other
through this. He's remaining years what he
(54:22):
wants to achieve, what I want toachieve.
And then how how do we make thissystem work for us so that that
is like never going to finish. That's like work in progress.
Yeah, and it's beautiful. It's actually very romantic, I
think, And it can be a lot of things, but it's very romantic
and not easy. And I want to ask you one last
question, and it's a big one, soforgive me.
How do you define success? Oh my goodness, you know.
(54:45):
I know. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. It sounds like a question that I
should have expected, right, Because we are both like, you
know, forecasters. So this is not unusual, but it's
it's like one of those situations when people say, can
you, can you tell me a little bit about yourself?
And because you're so multi layered, you're like, which part
(55:05):
do I start with? Like how like, you know, how do
I angle this story because I could come from different
places. So how do I define success in
the context of this conversation?
I would use a quote that says, if you travel far enough, you
will meet yourself. So I think that would be my
(55:26):
definition of success. I don't know, is that so deep?
And so that's. Beautiful.
No, it's beautiful. It's beautiful.
So thank you for sharing on short notice.
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that's beautiful.
Welcome. Yeah, I think I'm still in the
journey of definition and I still am traveling not just
outwardly but inwardly. And if I travel far enough, I
(55:48):
will meet myself and that will mean I am successful.
That's amazing and I hope the journey never ends.
That's the. So that is a delayed success,
Mikhail. No, but like, but the journey of
finding of of allowing yourself to change is innate.
And so I hope. Yeah.
Yeah, it's a pleasure filled 1 Ithink.
(56:10):
Yeah, and we shall continue to leave some space in our life for
wonder. Yes, yes, yes, very cool.
Well, I have so much more. Like I feel like we could talk
forever. So this is like about any number
of things that we have in commonand we don't have in common.
But thank you for sharing your story today.
I want people to feel like they can reach out to you for the
(56:31):
right purpose, which would be many.
But professionally, who is the right person?
If someone's wanting to have a mindset shift within being a
business owner is that describe your ideal person who would
reach out and work with you. My idol client is someone who
has already a business model because not having a business
model and staying in that foggy experimental area will.
(56:55):
It's not like I can't help them,but they will not benefit from
my strength at its optimal level, which is doubling,
multiplying your revenue. And so if you are already there,
you, you have tested your business models, then you just
want to ramp it up. So that would be my ideal
client. I'm almost system agnostic
(57:16):
because I look at the mechanics of a business and yeah, it
doesn't matter about the age, the faith, the colour, the
gender, I mean that. Sector, Yeah.
So it sounds like not an early stage founder but maybe a scale
up founder. But yeah, anywhere between two
years and let's say 8 years would be my normally like the
(57:36):
ideal client profile. And most of them range from the
solopreneur, which which is not really where my sweet spot is,
is normally there is a team of at least two to five people and
70 people company. But I'm also not getting myself
involved with bigger companies simply because the way I work is
I act as a Co entrepreneur in that particular phase of the
(58:00):
project. So I'm sitting with the founder
as if it is also my journey and my project.
And we look at it with that level of commitment and
ownership from my side. So that's just how I work.
Otherwise I'm to detach and I'm I'm just like giving theories or
giving ideas but not really rolling up my sleeves.
(58:20):
That's not how I work. Yeah.
So would you consider yourself afractional member of the team
for a journey, for part of the journey?
One could say that, but I don't take on a title for the company.
Yeah, cool. Yeah, yeah.
But yes, a fraction that my I'm always on some of a retainer.
So yes, that could go a fractional work, yeah.
(58:42):
That's that may be getting into the weeds, but for the right
people, it'll be helpful to hearexactly if they if they resonate
with you, who who they, who theyshould be cool.
Well, thank you so much for joining me.
Thank. You for having me.
It's been a pleasure to talk to you and to go deep into certain
topics. I mean, actually you've asked me
some really good questions. I'm like, oh wow.
(59:05):
Yeah, I hope so. I hope so.
And I hope people listening can also ask themselves that the
same questions. And I think you've shared with
us some things that, again, likeI said, I have never heard
anyone say we know each other's strength, power, power.
Yeah, we we know each other's power.
Is, is. You've just changed my life.
So thank you so much. Thank you, Michaela.
(59:27):
It's been a pleasure. Thank you and thank you everyone
for listening. I hope that you've enjoyed our
conversation and please feel free to go to
houseofperegrine.com to check out more of what we're doing
with people living abroad. Thank you, Nina, and I'll talk
to you very soon. You're welcome.
OK, that's it for today. I hope you've enjoyed our show.
For the latest insights on living internationally, join us
(59:50):
at houseofperegrine.com to find out how you can connect with our
community. Let's craft our life story with
intention, together.
Hi, I'm Michael Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes what we are
all about perfectly. Those that craft their life
story with intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I've
(00:23):
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews, I hope
to connect those living internationally more deeply to
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances. And meaning making.
(00:45):
To global parenting and relationships to make your time
abroad more intentional, edifying and full of beauty.
Find us at houseofperegrine.com where you can find more ways to
connect with the ethos of Peregrine.
I hope you enjoy today's guest. Let's get started.
Hello everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine
(01:06):
podcast. I'm your host, Michael Weber,
and today I'm speaking with NinaAsiz Justin, a resilience
mentor, attraction strategist and TEDx speaker.
Originally from Malaysia and nowbased in Amsterdam, Nina brings
a unique mix of business insightand personal experience to the
conversation. She's spent over 20 years
helping companies grow across more than 40 countries and is
(01:28):
the founder of several ventures herself.
She also hosts her own podcast, Business Bites, where she shares
practical advice for entrepreneurs.
But Nina's work goes beyond strategy.
As a mother navigating life witha daughter who has a rare
neurological condition, she brings a deep personal
understanding of resilience, notjust as a concept, but as a very
real lived experience. In this episode, we talk about
(01:51):
navigating change, building a business with sustainability in
mind, and how personal experiences shape the way we
show up professionally. It's a thoughtful, honest
conversation about what it meansto keep going and stay grounded
through uncertainty. Thank you so much for joining
me, Nina. Thank you for having me,
Mikhail. Today I want to start out.
(02:14):
You have so many facets that you're sharing with the world,
which is actually really rare, Ihave to say.
People will say brave, but I want to say also rare because as
a professional woman, we are told to leave things at home,
right? And so I love that you bring all
at least a lot more of the aspects of your story to the
table and so that we can learn and grow with you.
(02:34):
So, but I want to start first bytalking about professionally.
Tell me what this means Attraction specialist if you
wouldn't mind. Basically, this is my focus in
my work. I try my best to bring all
aspects of business into one focus of alignment point, which
(02:55):
is traction. And this is about running a
business which is beyond purposeand beyond meaning.
That means it's going to also reward you in financial terms
because it is a business. Because what happened quite
often is that we find ourselves focused on purpose and meaning
yet and not creating a business that is financially rewarding.
(03:20):
And this is what I'm trying to do in my daily life when I work
with entrepreneurs is just to make sure that they are
financially rewarded at the earliest point in their business
journey so that they can keep growing as a person and as a
business. Because as you know, 9 out of 10
businesses actually fail due to this.
And not I want to, we'll get into your personal story, but
(03:42):
this is actually something that is very rarely talked about, I
would say. And so I love that you have
insight into this because often we're told in startup land like
sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice,sleep on your couch, do all this
stuff. And this is maybe possible when
you're at university, you have all the time in the world to
pursue something like this. But that's not true.
(04:06):
Actually being paid and actuallywatching out for both, it's been
called the double bottom line before.
Or watching out for both of those things, meaning and
purpose and sustainability and your own personal financial.
Those two things are hard. They're on 2 separate sides of.
It can be seen as they're on 2 separate sides of the spectrum,
(04:26):
but I think you might have a different answer.
I think they are connected because you cannot call your
work a business if it's not going to be financially
rewarding. Because ultimately, yes, you
will learn a lot, you will grow a lot, you will experience a
lot, but you will not be able tohave that as something that you
(04:49):
can continue to grow and build over the years.
Also for your own sake. I mean, obviously some people
started a business because they have a very deep pocket, but is
that really a business? We can always accept that there
will be a period when you will not be making a lot of money.
But if you are running a business and while you are still
(05:13):
trying the different business modules and you're still like
prototyping, there could be, youknow, some leeways to not look
at your business only as a moneymaking machine.
But at some point you have to start making money.
And my work is basically to kindof like inject some form of
reality into that journey and make sure that while we are
(05:34):
pivoting and prototyping and trying different business
modules, we are still going to go for that financial reward as
an officer. Because if you just use your
purpose and meaning and, and joy, which is, which are all
good, you will not be able to sustain that for much longer
(05:57):
than let's say three years unless you have deep pockets and
you can throw money constantly into that equation.
Even if you have an investor, that investor will ask you for
some financial performance. So I think it's, it's basically
making sure that as an entrepreneur, everyone who goes
(06:18):
into that game understands that the goal of the game is still
financially related. And it's not just purpose,
meaning sustainability, impact, resonance and all that beautiful
stuff that we do everyday too, but we have to do that because
we can't sustain ourselves financially.
And with that in mind, we can domore and help.
(06:42):
Yeah, yeah. Do you find yourself navigating
a lot of shame to get people to that point or what would you say
is the number one block for people in that owning A owning
or operating a business that's maybe passion LED or something
that comes from themselves? When you say when you use the
word shame and you say shame, isit because money is something
(07:02):
that is seen as dirty or? Yeah, well, that's what I've
experienced with particularly women and maybe some men that
are purpose LED. That's been my number one
impression and something I've worked with in myself as well.
But I don't know if you see it more widely or if it's just
something that I'm saying because it's part of my journey.
Of course, it's not very OK. It's also like, you know, I'm
(07:25):
also raising them in an Asian culture where, you know,
speaking about money so openly is not considered classy or
graceful. But I'm not talking about money
in that way. I'm talking about money as as an
indicator of your performance here.
It's not the only indicator of performance, but it is still an
(07:49):
indicator of performance. If you're running a business, if
you decide to enter the game, let's say if you want to compete
in a 100 meters race, you have to understand it is still a race
and it is still the distance that you have to make.
And that's the same with the business.
If you want to be in business and you want to call your
venture a business and not a nonprofit organization, then you
(08:12):
need to steal. Be aware that is a very big
indicator of your performance ofevery single effort you put in
there. Every minute you spend, every
dollar you spend, it has to be translatable into something that
would generate more of that. Let's say if you put $1.00, it
(08:34):
has to generate another dollar at minimum, you know.
Yeah, and that's the game. So know the game you're playing.
And I think that I've had this experience of being a woman
founder of founder of someone who's a founder and then people
assume I'm running a non profit and not a for profit company,
(08:56):
which has been a very interesting experience.
Is that because you're a female founder or is it because I don't
know what you're doing? Is something that is very close
to your meaning, your purpose and top like something that's
close to your heart? Is that an assumption or is it
Is it something that you truly feel?
(09:18):
Yeah, it's interesting because my partner Doug, he has always
had his own companies that he starts and then sells and
they're very close to his heart and he'll say that, but no one
ever asks them if they're a nonprofit.
So it's been my experience that that's the difference.
Maybe it's how we talk about it.Maybe it's it doesn't matter
what it is, but it's just been avery interesting journey to have
(09:39):
to answer that question more often than maybe he does.
He works the software for children that is very close to
his heart and his story, his ownpersonal story.
And so it just, it always has made me curious, maybe a little
bit angry, but now I just see asan opportunity to to explain
more about my business. Yeah.
(10:00):
And so when you work with a business or a founder, you're
really going into showing them the game they're playing,
finding ways to make the business more profitable, which
is the game you're playing to have to make money that's part
of the game you're playing. And then let them also hold
their purpose. Is that do I have that right?
(10:23):
Well, your purpose is always your starting point, right?
You can't do anything well unless your heart is in it,
right? So there is no question about
the purpose and the big picture.But we're talking about systems,
we're talking about mindset. And if you have a really big
(10:44):
dream but you have no system, you don't have the right
mindset, you don't have the tools to achieve this dream,
It's just a dream. And this is what is happening in
quite a few companies where theyare just living a dream, but
that dream will not be sustainable, just like
(11:07):
everything else that you know. And, and I think going back to
your initial question, do I have, do I feel shame?
I say no, not at all. I think I, I think a lot of
people are ashamed because they are hiding behind something else
that's not they did probably have fear.
And that fear is and cloth in something that we think is
(11:27):
shameful to talk about money. No, you fear to actually take on
this journey 100%. That means I I like this, but I
don't know if I like it too much.
Enough to that so that I can make a lot of money.
I don't know. So you can choose it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I find that owning that from
(11:47):
myself saying like, no, I this, I'm in this to make money like
that. That was a that's really hard to
say and really hard for people to hear when that conversation
comes up. And so I think it's just really
interesting, so. So then you can do more, you can
do bigger things. I mean, if you are struggling to
make ends meet for yourself and also to feel valued, to feel,
(12:10):
hey, I am, you know, I'm growinghere.
I have numbers in my bank account to show that and I can
inject some of that into more, you know, things for my business
and more opportunities for otherpeople to work for my
organization and provide a bigger platform for many more
peregrines than you know, I mean.
Makes no sense. It makes no sense, Yeah.
(12:31):
You know there are organizationsthat are doing that
not-for-profit, right? I mean, but that's not you.
Right. Yes, exactly, exactly.
And that's basically what I say.There are people doing this.
That's just not what we're doingand it's important and I respect
it. So I want to back up because you
have so many rich layers of yourstory.
You've worked in startups for a very long time, like in a really
(12:56):
where which I love how you're speaking from this place of
wisdom and getting people to thenext level because you're right,
it does have to start with passion.
That's a really good place to start a startup, But then it has
to change and you've seen the result of that not changing and
it's, it's not pleasant. It's not good for anybody.
For sure. You learn lessons, like you
(13:17):
said, but you also have this really rich experience.
So you have that experience you're bringing to the table and
then you have this experience ofliving abroad most of your adult
life. And so we started out with the
business stuff because I'm supereager to get into that with you.
But if we can take a moment justto tell your story of growing up
(13:37):
in Malaysia, ending up helping all the people in 40 / 40
countries with our business, andthen to where you are today.
OK, so we'll start from Ground Zero.
I I'm Malaysian, so I've been raised in a sort of a
progressive Muslim family where faith, family, freedom all kind
(13:59):
of makes into one. I have always been encouraged to
be independent. My mother has always been a
career woman, so I do not have another role model as a mother.
And that could be a good or a bad thing 'cause my mom worked
really hard as she could not imagine.
(14:19):
And I think this is her own legacy issue because her mother
did not work and all her life she was just like, I'm never
going to stay home. I'm going to be a working woman
and I will not quit my job for my children.
This is not my thing. So I didn't have a mother who
was like living at home, taking care of me or cooking and all
that stuff. I didn't have that.
(14:40):
So my role mother was a working mom.
So I was raised with that. Despite the fact that obviously
I have the strong Asian stroke Muslim values, it's still quite
loose in my case, you know, I was raised with honor and grace
and and also not forgetting my roots.
But apart from that, you go girl, basically.
(15:01):
So I, I've always wanted to go abroad as a child.
I don't know whether that is an ancestral thing or is it because
my, my mom has a younger brotherwho studied in England and he
gave me when I was six or seven years old, a little Panzer case
(15:21):
in the shape of a double Decker bus.
It's like a red pencil case. And somehow that just planted
the seed in me. I wanted to go and study in
England. So I had that in my mind, like,
OK, this is what I want. I want to go to London to sit on
the double Decker bus. And I thought, I'm too young to
(15:42):
even introduce that topic to my parents, but I had it since I
was young that I'm going to go there and study that because I
didn't know that you could do anything else because my uncle
was studying in England. So I was like, I'm also going to
go there and I'm going to sit onthis double Decker bus, which is
what I did when I made it happenwhen I was 18.
I arrived in London and the first thing I did was actually
(16:02):
went on the double Lecter bars because that's what I always
wanted to do since I was a kid. So there is this deep yearning
for seeing the world. And I think studying in England
gave me that additional layer ofliving in a multicultural
environment, you know, London inthe 90s.
London has changed now since Brexit, but in the 90s it was
(16:24):
different. I mean, I would sit on a tube to
go to uni next to people of different races and I really
enjoyed that very, very much. I just felt like I could be more
than just what I thought I was, not that I was small and there
was nothing wrong with my culture.
(16:44):
I wasn't fighting a war. I was not looking for economic
gains. At the time, the Asian economy
was booming. I would have had a leap in my
career if I had gone home. But I remember when I graduated,
my parents were like, yeah, I mean, isn't it time to come
home? And I wanted to go to France.
I mean, my husband's now my husband's French, but I didn't
(17:06):
know I was going to marry a French guy at the time.
And I was like, no, I want to goto France to study French.
And they were, they didn't understand, they were like, why,
why do you need to speak French,right?
So actually I just wanted to have another adventure, another,
another exposure, another layer.And I came back to London, work
in England. And then, you know, the Internet
(17:29):
first one point O Internet so you can do the maths.
I'm not young. I'm 100 years old, to be exact,
started, you know, and I joined a startup then.
So my startup journey started inthe 90s.
So I'm like the OG of the startup world.
And yeah, so that that's like how it panned out for me.
(17:52):
I did not plan to stay on this long, but every time there was a
new opportunity and new ways of doing things, new ways of
expanding and becoming. And I went with that.
And not without any grief, of course.
But yeah, that's just how my life has played out until today.
(18:12):
And one of the other things I wanted to do when I was younger
also was to, to see the world and, and, and to work in many
countries. So when I started in the first
startup in London, it was a German funded, it's a huge
German media company that fundedthat startup.
And when we grew, I was promotedto go and work at the head
(18:34):
office in Germany. So from London I was in France,
back to London and then went to Germany.
And you know, that gave me my dream again, which was to work
internationally and I was heading the news channel and the
personalization technology licensing in 14 countries.
So then I started my international career.
(18:56):
So everything you could say, I was lucky, of course, but
everything came from that yearning that I had to see the
world and to believe that I can do this.
And then I will upset some people and I will upset my mom
and nobody would understand my choices, you know?
But this is something that I wanted to do.
(19:17):
So in a way, you know I live my dreams.
Yeah, that's incredible. And that it started so young,
six and seven years old, That's,that's an an incredible feeling.
And I, I do believe that we havethis at least partially
innately, because I just remember when I was that young
(19:38):
too, wanting to learn a language, so desperately wanting
to live abroad and, and no one else had this dream.
It's just like, why, Why would you want to do that?
And so that is, it's a beautifulstory.
Thank you so much for sharing. So then ultimately you met your
partner Justin in France? No, we met each other in Hong
(19:58):
Kong at a work conference, you know, because I've, you know,
I've worked internationally and he, he also works
internationally. So you kind of meet people who
aren't just like you. And that's what makes it all
exciting and addictive and hard on this.
(20:20):
Jenny Yeah, and. Yeah.
When you say like you, you don'tneed other Malaysians.
You don't mean other. He does like you.
When you say like you, you meet other people like you.
What do you mean? I meet other Malaysians as well.
Yeah, but not just sharing a cultural background.
You know, yeah, Yeah, that's a good question, Mikael, because,
(20:41):
yeah, what are who are people like me?
I think it's like when you move,you transform, right?
You transform. You know, a mind that has been
stretched could not go back to the state that it was.
It's not possible. It's your mind.
It's neuroplasticity. It's not possible.
So with any move, you have to gothrough an identity crisis.
(21:09):
So when you say people like you,who are they?
I'm like, I don't know. That's like we're talking about
identity here. And identity is integral to this
particular experience of people like you, like me and many
others who move from one place to that your identity will be
questioned. And then at some point people
say like, who are you talking about?
(21:29):
And you're like, you know, so that's identity, that's growth,
that's transformation. And yeah, people who probably
have had similar experiences, they may not be the same, but
people who already become someone, which is like this
tapestry, this patchwork of lotsof different places and people
(21:54):
and cultures and values. And yeah, that's the identity.
So, yeah. I met my husband at a work
conference in Hong Kong. He is French.
At the time he was living in NewYork and we have this long
distance relationship for a while.
And now we are here and you know, that's, that's our life.
(22:15):
That's our life story. And our kids are, you know,
maybe you know that they're here.
Yep, yeah, Yep. And that's, that's the that that
you can't explain it. It's just time to go somewhere.
It's time to be with someone. And that's living a different
kind of life. It's a, it's an, it's an
examined life or a passion LED life or a so I just think it's,
(22:36):
it's very beautiful to hear these stories and hear other
people reflect what other guestson this podcast have even said.
So they've never met, but I've met them and they're saying the
same thing, which is really beautiful.
So I want to talk about your most recent.
Thank you for that, by the way. Thank you for going into that
with me. It's one of my great joys in
life to be able to hear people, to find themselves.
(23:00):
I can't define myself Michaela. Yeah, no, but I mean you, you
have, you have and it's and it'sin a very think reflecting back,
it's about not, not being held back, living your dream, but not
more than that feeling into a new kind of dream and being
willing to do that multiple times in your life.
(23:22):
I allow myself to evolve. Yeah.
Basically, yeah, I, yeah, I thisis not something that I have
thought through when I was younger, when I made my first
start, like the adventure journey.
And of course, when I moved to Germany, it was totally
different experience than when Iwas in London because then I had
(23:43):
to embrace my identity again in a totally different way because
Germany is less multicultural, at least when I was.
And now it's changing also. And I wasn't in Berlin because
Berlin would have been a little bit similar to London.
But where I was, I was the only brown person in the city.
But then I embraced that, and I didn't have any bad experience
(24:07):
from that. Yeah, maybe that's why I'm still
here. And I'm not discouraged, you
know, this fight, this fight, this kind of diverse
experiences. And.
Yeah. And I think I allowed myself to
evolve without really, you know,being young, you don't really
think too much. You just want to do things.
But now when I look back on it, and I think that's the beauty of
(24:28):
hindsight, it's like, OK, I allowed myself that.
Yeah. I leave some space for wonder in
my life. Yeah.
And do you find that? So I want to ask this carefully
because it brings up things, butlike were you a difficult child?
I say this with love because I was a difficult child.
I. Wasn't difficult in the sense
(24:49):
like I was disobedient. Look, I'm Asian, right?
I mean, I don't know how much you know about Asian upbringing.
We're not supposed to be so openly rebellious.
We have to respect like there isGod and then there's your
parents and then there's you. OK, so there is a strata in the
in the your existence as an Asian child.
(25:11):
My parents were, you know, very progressive.
So there's a lot of space for mein that time even.
But I think I started becoming alittle bit more difficult when I
was in London. I think when my parents asked me
when are you coming back? I didn't like that question
because I think I've outgrown mymold in a way.
(25:33):
I mean, this sounds like I'm saying that the Malaysian mold
is so small. It's not the case.
But I've changed. I've become somebody else, and I
couldn't really reconcile the two worlds.
And I think for my parents, theyprobably thought, oh, I have
become rebellious, or I'm confused, or I didn't know my
(25:53):
identity, which could all be true, too.
And there could have been also some cultural frictions or
misunderstanding in that processbecause they had to understand
me. They've never encountered a
child like me, You know, I'm also the first born.
Yeah. There's a lot of guilt on my
side, a lot of guilt which I'm sure is familiar for many people
(26:13):
who leave their families like you.
You always have guilt and you always have grief.
Grief is part of that process, part of the journey, I would
say, from time to time. And yeah, I went through all
that and it became harder for them when I decided to marry a
foreigner when I have my children abroad, because
suddenly the ideas that they have of me ever coming home
(26:36):
again is diminishing as the years go by.
Yeah, so their dream is having to transform as well.
Yeah, I mean, they had to allow themselves to evolve too.
Yes. Yeah.
And that's the fun of being a, You don't even have to be a
cycle breaker, but someone who'sallowing this, allowing at least
(26:57):
from my own personal journey hasbeen one, a bit of a Crucible of
allowing yourself to evolve has been a Crucible and a constant
theme in my life. So when I meet someone who's
also been through that and it seems like it's just been not as
much of A Crucible for you, it makes me just so happy to see.
Well, you know, now telling thisstory and we're on this podcast
(27:20):
and, you know, we are all Ted speakers.
It sounds so polished and nice, but the process, the little
steps through this journey has not always been smooth.
Yeah. Yes, no, it's not when you're in
it, there's no, you have no ideawhy you're in it, but but then
when you step back. So let's talk about you.
So I've never had a fellow Ted TEDx speaker on the podcast.
(27:44):
We've both, yeah, we've both hadthat experience, which is
another, I don't know about you,but it was a life changing,
affirming, destroying experiencethat then built back into
something else. And so tell me, I want to hear
about yours. We can include your talk in the
show notes, but tell me what it was about.
Well, in my Ted talk, I spoke about resilience, which is my
(28:07):
brand. Of course, I call myself the
Resilience mentor. And it's actually not a brand
that I came up on my own or cameup with on my own.
It was developed by a branding agency based on my life story
and so on. And it was to differentiate
myself from other business coaches or mentors or whatever
consultants. So I'm really specialized and,
and my thing is about resiliencebuilding for sustainability.
(28:30):
So my talk was actually called the resilience equation.
So I spoke about resilience and the parallel between raising a
special needs child and being a startup founder or having had
the startup life, you know, and there are several parallels and
it's a mathematical equation which I hope could be applied by
(28:54):
anyone facing any kind of struggle in their lives.
Basically, it's time, give yourself time multiplied by
beginners mindset or in my equation, I call it startup
mindset. You know, you are starting out,
you don't know many things. You have to start from a place
of no assumption and willingnessto discover and allow yourself
to go through that journey. And then, you know, close
(29:16):
bracket because it's the mathematical equation to the
power of incremental action. So it's like taking little
steps, incremental steps, doing small things.
You know, it's basically the principle of happy and learning.
You learn, you rewire your brainwhen you do it repetitively and
in small steps. So there are stories that are
woven into this equation. And that's really based on my
(29:39):
startup life and my journey raising my second daughter, who
is a special needs child with a red neurological condition.
Because there no one could have helped us because when she was
diagnosed, she was one in 21 in the world.
But in the Netherlands, they were just like, yeah, sorry.
I mean, you can tell us how she will develop.
(30:01):
You can come back and feed your information into this system.
But no one could help us. And when we were trying to place
her at school, they didn't even know where to put her.
Like, which school do you want to put her into?
So that was a very difficult journey.
And it remains that way. But I have to adopt A new
(30:23):
mindset. So what I have had to do was to
build the inner scaffolding, so to speak, to sustain a life that
I thought we should all still have.
That is like, I'm not giving up my job because as I mentioned, I
don't have this role model. And you know, and that's also
(30:44):
how the resilience mentor, the business that I have today was
born. I only came about after Isabel's
diagnosed diagnostic and not before that.
Before that, I was running my own startups.
And you know, I think that's, that's what I meant by allowing
myself to evolve because, you know, that's, that's the
journey. I mean, and I don't think this
is you need a special needs child to learn that or you need
(31:06):
anything catastrophic to happen to you.
I think it's, it's in a small way and in a big way what we
should allow ourselves to do everyday to build this inner
scaffolding by giving us a time learn with the view of like, I
don't know, everything. I can still learn new things and
I can do small things and build on that.
And so that's the whole talk basically.
(31:28):
Amazing. Well, and it, it occurs to me as
you're speaking and what I hear reflected is that you don't have
an area of your life where you're not applying that because
when you're going to a new country, you have this equation
works and you've done this many times starting in a new country,
when you have a startup, this isessential.
And when you have a, you have a special needs child or even just
(31:53):
being a parent in general, this is a very sustainable way of
going through being a parent because you are doing everything
for the first time. But having a special like your
story is so specific in having no Rd. you have no path.
You are making the path. And that is that's incredible
(32:14):
that that's playing out over andover in your story.
There is no path. You're making the path.
I think for many people, this isthis situation.
It's just that we believe, let'ssay, when I was raising my first
daughter with before Isabel, Kate, Camilla, I thought I could
do that easily because she's it's just a neurotypical.
(32:36):
But every child is unique, right?
And you are different also. You have to combine your work,
your your dreams, your relationship with your husband
or you move to another country. There's always a new mix in the
equation. Yeah.
And I think one thing that most people forget is to give
(32:56):
themselves the time, the luxury of time, because we are often
fed with this idea that if you're smart, you could figure
it all out. I mean, no figuring out.
Sometimes you know it's on the job.
Yeah. And it occurs to me that this is
actually what you're bringing this home, actually helping
(33:18):
businesses become businesses, having the capital they need,
being profitable is actually giving them more time.
That's what you're actually partof what that is, is giving them
more time. And that feeds into this
equation that is, is pivotal to your success and that you're
sharing with others, which I think is just so beautiful and
(33:39):
so beautifully woven. And, and it comes from a place
of deep knowing, which I think is, yeah, I think it makes you
stand out. Yeah, well, thank you for saying
that. I appreciate that.
But to be very honest, all I know is that we can all have
microjoys. I don't go for big joys now.
(33:59):
I mean, that will be a bonus, you know.
But because I know we can all have microjoys, I focus on that.
I mean, and I don't have this idea of hassle free life anymore
in my life. It's not possible for me.
It's not available to me. I hope for for other other
people, they can have that. But I I also believe I wouldn't,
(34:20):
I wouldn't have grown. And when I look at my life
journey, I think when I have, you know, switch somewhere
where, you know, it's called self development at scale.
It's like think that was when Isabel was diagnosed and that
was really hard and I had to embrace that.
(34:41):
And it is yet again another journey.
Yeah, it got better with time for sure.
And would you describe these microjoys as part of living with
resilience and vitality? Like is there, is there a point
when vitality goes into the equation?
Because I think at least in my life and in startups and in
parenting, resilience is sometimes translated into
(35:03):
everything's hard all the time. And when you say you're
injecting these micro allowing or planning or expecting these
moments of micro joy, that leadsme to wonder about resilience
and making sure that we watch, we put that in the equation.
Yeah, yeah. Do you really believe that we
should expect things to be hard all the time in a startup?
(35:25):
That that what I've seen and canbe a trap is that this is if
we're not having a hard time, ifwe're not strapped for money, if
we're not going after, not growing.
And this is sometimes fueled by investors too.
If you're not pushing as hard asyou can, you're not going to
(35:45):
meet your potential if you're not going to be able to compete
and vitality is not in the equation, it's not on the
balance sheet, right? And sometimes not even a large
enough paycheck for founders is on the balance sheet for some
investors. And of course, that's changing.
And so I think it has potentially been part of part of
startup culture that being resilient means that you're
(36:09):
striving all the time. You suffer you.
Suffer, yeah. Yeah, I refuse to accept that
because I believe in the power of my mind.
You know, I have proven cases for the power of my mind now
because, you know, I said I wanted to do this and I had the
chance every time, including, you know, speaking at Ted.
(36:29):
When I saw you on that stage, like a few weeks after your
talk, I had a coffee with you, remember?
Yeah, I did. Like, it must be quite nice to
speak at Ted. I really want to have that
opportunity one day. And the year after that, I spoke
at Ted. So for this, I think your
mindset is so important. Your mindset is part of that
(36:49):
inner scaffolding for resiliencethat you need to build.
Expecting suffering is is dangerous.
I think you can expect the journey not be as you envisage
because that's the. Who never is.
That never is right. But expecting suffering, that's
(37:11):
a big powerful thought. I would expect joy.
OK. Just to change the mindset like
there is some, there is a littleor there are plenty of micro
moments of joy. You expect first year, second
year to be trying, but you do not expect suffering.
(37:36):
Yeah. And I love, I love to hear you
say that so much because I've been saying it for 20 years.
This is like this is just foxic mindset.
I cannot encourage that because that is not a growth mindset.
Yes, but it's also suffering forfor high financial payoff is a
uniquely, potentially uniquely American belief.
(37:58):
Really. But how often does this happen?
How often does this big financial payoff happen to
people who expect suffering? Yes, I total and I, I think
there's something in the zeitgeist.
We don't need to go like I can go into the collective mindset
of a lot of things, but we won'tgo there today.
But I do think that there is a very important part of building
(38:23):
something that is completely custom, completely based on your
life. That includes moving countries,
having the relationship you want, having the business you
want, having the life you want is never going to be just
smooth. And so this resilience that
you're Speaking of, isn't it an incredibly potent, if not
essential part of being successful, whatever that looks
(38:45):
like for you. And so having a custom life, I
always call it having a custom life instead of following the
path that others have laid out for you.
And that's in business, in partnership, in life and where
you live. I think it's it's such a
beautiful thing to know. You're going to have to
cultivate if it's not in there innately.
(39:06):
Custom life, I like that, and I think custom life comes from the
recognition of the fact that life needs you to embrace change
and to be flexible and to adapt,right, So you can customize it.
What the essence of the word customize means you need to
(39:27):
adapt it to something, right? Adaptation can mean discomfort,
friction or whatever. But you it's it's also time that
will ease everything, right? In my opinion.
But I do strongly suggest if someone expects to suffer so
much to get a high paycheck to get out of that lane.
(39:51):
No, no, just get out of that lane because the paycheck will
come because you have had to pivot several times.
And that is customization, that's a that's flexibility and
you will pivot so many times to get to that paycheck, not you
will suffer, I don't know, resilient sufferings.
(40:12):
I mean, I mean, I don't know. I mean, personally I will not
recommend that. No, I wouldn't either.
But we do see, I mean, at least in my circles, in the news, that
most people who have done had a lot of success have suffered in
their personal life as a result.Life.
Oh, you mean personal life, not just.
Also life. Yeah, Also personal.
Life. Yes, you need a very strong
(40:34):
partner in life for this of life.
Yeah. And also as I think as an
international, you have to have a strong partner as a startup
founder. You have to have a strong
partner as someone parenting a child with special needs or
children at all. And you and Justin have have
done that. Do you want to tell me a little
bit anything about that? You guys are both kind of in the
same And I, I look up to that because we're both my partner
(40:57):
and I are both in the same, bothin startups and that is unique.
It's usually one stable partner,one, yeah, startup founder.
You guys definitely have done ittoo, right?
I mean, you know, you, you uprooted your whole family to a
new country, put your children through a new system, new
language. You didn't know anyone here
(41:20):
apart from maybe people, one or two people.
I don't, I don't know your background story, but we, I
mean, I have to be very honest. I mean, you know, David and I,
we are a very, very good, you know, solid partners in our life
journey. But it's not like it's not
because we always are on the same page.
(41:41):
It's just that we both understand each other's power.
How you know? We understand that.
That stop, pause there. I thought you were going to say
the normal thing. We communicate.
We share a vision. There's those are important.
Say this again and please explain this because I believe
no one in the world has ever said what you're saying.
(42:02):
We understand each other's powerand if they have, we're going to
say it again and it's going to be Nina Justin because we
understand each other's power. Please talk about that.
That is an amazing thing to say.I haven't really thought through
that when I say that, but I'm I'm saying exactly what how I I
feel about my marriage. I think my marriage is not
perfect. We are both.
(42:23):
Thank God it's not. Thank you so much.
We're both individuals, but we understand each other's power.
And he knows who I am and you know, and I know who he is.
And there's no, there's no Gray zone there.
I mean, we're clear about that. And right now and for the
longest time, he knows that I'm an entrepreneur.
I cannot go back to corporate world.
(42:43):
I have been there. I'm not doing it again because
that's not where I would shine and that's not where I feel
where I belong. OK, I may not have a place where
I belong, but my home is within and that is where I am.
I need to be here. I need to hang out with
entrepreneurs. I need to constantly do things
and and be challenged mentally. And he is, he has a bit of that
(43:06):
too. He's also an entrepreneur.
You know that. But he's also better than me in
other spaces. As parents, we are both with the
same values. We have not from the same
culture. We're not from the same race.
We grew up on the opposite sidesof the world.
(43:27):
He's from a really strong Catholic family.
I'm from progressive Muslim family.
But we have the same values. Well, yeah.
And that that is a normal thing.Sharing values that is a normal.
Oh yeah, definitely. Whether you come up with them or
you come with them, that's normal.
But how does this value play this this having the same values
(43:49):
play out when you're both pursuing really intense things
in your career? Or is this a knowing that you'll
step up for the other once it calms down?
Do you structure things a certain way?
There's no map for this. I have to say.
There's no map for for this level of collaboration in a
professional life with startup founders. 2 in a marriage.
(44:13):
A journey without a map. That's indeed how we should
describe this journey, your journey and mine.
Yep, Yep. Some call them Trail Blazers, if
I can say that about myself. Something that I've been very
reluctant to accept as something.
But yeah. We can own them.
It's OK. And I think when it comes to
certain things, it's very clear always that the family comes
(44:36):
first. So that family Trump's
everything else. Everything else is negotiable,
of course. Defined everything.
More often I'm saying, Hey, I'm carrying too much, you know, you
need to to care, take some, but you know, but this is a sort of
a husband and wife cliche scenario.
What is negotiable. I think David is pretty lay by
(44:57):
actually what matters to me. Like I I pay more attention to
like creating beautiful moments and his guy and he's like, OK,
you do that. I mean, you know, I don't care.
But would you say that he valuesthat and you and appreciates it?
He likes it. Yeah.
Yes, he likes it. Yeah, he likes.
It so. So he sees it, he appreciates
it, he values it. That's important.
(45:18):
Yes, yes, he does. I think that has become his norm
now. But if I'm tired and I say, oh,
I I'm not doing that, he's also OK with that.
So it helps that he's actually quite laid back.
So when it comes to work, we areboth like, yeah, like I need to
do my thing. And there's a lot of negotiation
about like, you know, are you going to pick up Isabel or am I?
(45:41):
You know, but we've, we have created a system.
So that's also something that I would encourage people who want
to live this kind of lifestyle to think about.
You need a system, not a routine.
You need a system. So you need to have a system and
you need to ask early and ask clearly.
(46:02):
Not like ambiguity and you know.No, you need to ask early and
ask clearly and create a system.And once you have established a
system, sometimes you need to tweak it here and then, but the
system will help you navigate. This and what is?
What is the difference? So a routine would look like, I
(46:25):
know every day he picks up Isabel, this day, this day,
that's a routine. And what, what is a system?
Describe or maybe describe your system or what you would name
your system if you had to name it.
You need more than just you pickup Isabel that day you have.
So you're not talking about logistics.
That's not what you're talking about.
This is talking about is it talking about values, talking
(46:45):
about limits, talking about goals and then making a system
around that which looks like my work is non negotiable.
Your work is non negotiable. So we have that.
Family comes first, though. Family comes first, yeah.
So that that's the, those are the non negotiables.
So you come up with the non negotiables family first.
Our work is equal. Those are the non negotiables,
(47:07):
but everything else inside of that is negotiable.
Is that how you'd say the system?
Well, the system is always like also we are one.
We are, we are always going to be the other person's biggest
advocate, biggest supporter, no question about that.
Also, like it's just like to give an example, which is easier
for other people to understand. It's like not just you pick up
(47:29):
is about something happens and you can't pick up is about what
is the backup. We don't, we don't, I mean, of
course there will be situations when we will be, you know, like
taken by surprise and say that we don't have a backup for the
situation. But for their routine, for the
common situations, there should be a backup.
You should know, you know, because now for example, he's
(47:50):
travelling a lot. So I am the main key, you know,
carer of Isabel because he's notoften in the Netherlands and I
have two babysitters. Babysitters, you know, there is
a system like he would check like if I'm OK or not.
You know, you need that. You need to check in every day
so that we don't grow apart and we just, you know, acting like
(48:12):
Co parent or Co financiers or Coliving partner because that's
easy to get into without realizing what we're doing,
especially, you know, when we both are, you know, re driven.
Yeah, yeah. And that it has been one of the
like this happens with every relationship where your romantic
(48:33):
relationship can maybe be subverted and then maybe brought
back to life. But when you're operating at
this level of again, this system, your romantic
relationship has to be put in that system.
I. Guess yes.
And that's not date nights. That's not, I mean, maybe it is,
but it's it's talking about fidelity.
It's talking about all the very uncomfortable things that if
(48:55):
you're in that well worn path can be assumed.
But when you're making a new system, you have to talk about
and consider a lot more, I think.
Yeah, not always easy to navigate though, because that's
a topic that he doesn't really want to talk about.
You know, it's like, oh, do we have to talk about that?
And I'm like, yes, because I, I,I need to feel safe, right?
(49:17):
And it's not like we have to talk about it every day or we
have to talk about it all the time.
But when I need to talk about itor when he needs to deal with
some situations or some topics, you know, because I am his
number one supporter, I need you, you know, I need to buy
into that. And it's not just to assume that
I'm just going to do whatever you know you want me to do.
(49:39):
Yeah, In our system, I always say family comes first.
But before that, lover status comes absolute first for us to
still be married because we can do a lot together.
We're very, very. We're each other's biggest
collaborators as well, sometimesprofessionally as well.
And so for me, family comes second, honestly.
(50:01):
And that that is very important to our balance and that's unique
to to us, not to any other. I wouldn't say I'd recommend
that because it does sound like I'm saying our kids are second,
which I'm not saying no. I understand you.
I understand that's. What I'm saying is for me, being
lover, being a lover comes firstfor us to keep this arrangement
(50:22):
the way it is and then our family, then our businesses,
then, you know, I mean the hierarchy then gets very.
But for me, that was a very big moment when I realized that and
had and brought that on board and accepted it because it felt
very selfish, icky, young, desperate.
But I was like, no, this is how I gain energy as an entrepreneur
(50:42):
and a creative is having this asa goal and so.
It's important that you you ask for what you need.
Yeah, I think I think that's that's cool.
I mean, I'm not. I also think it's an important
point you raised because I remember when I had my first
daughter, I said I come first. And most people were like,
(51:02):
shocked, like, you now have a child.
Why do you say that? But I'm like, but before she was
born, it was me. And now I have two and I still
have a located space where I come first in this part.
I come first, you know, and thenthem.
Yeah. And I think with David and I,
why I say family comes first is because I, I know I said it to
(51:28):
him. I'm never going to divorce.
This is just how it is. If you're not, if you're not
going to make family first, you're going to have to suffer.
So we're going to work on the like keeping the family, you
know, that means within that we have to love each other.
We have to have the system that works for our family.
We need to make whatever choice we make is for the family to
(51:49):
stay intact. Yeah.
And it's heavy when you put something else which is outside
of you to be before you. But when I say family, it's not
my kids. It's the system.
It's the system that we have. Yeah, that's part of us.
It's part of that. That's so beautiful and I love
in this space of Co creating a custom life and a custom system
(52:13):
that different words mean different things in your system.
Your system has unique names andI love that.
And I think any couple or familywho's navigating moving abroad
or having an entrepreneurship orhaving any, it's very beautiful
to me that that we get to make our own systems.
I think that that's true. Then that's probably what I'm
most proud of in my life. Yeah, that is true.
(52:36):
Is that system and everything grows from that.
Honestly, anything we do lives or dies by the strength of our
system or our custom created whatever we're creating
together. And I think that that for me
also needs resistance or resilience.
And having that within a romantic relationship is not
(52:56):
also a skill that we have, and it breaks a lot of marriages up.
Yeah. When you live abroad or have a
startup or have a child or a child with special needs, like
any of the subjects that we're talking about today, need this
equation. Lethal, lethal combination.
You know, it's like, how do you play with fire?
No, no, no, we don't talk about how.
(53:18):
We talk about how big is that fire now?
Yes. Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, as
we, as we have mentioned before in this conversation, we have to
allow ourselves to evolve and that whole system keeps evolving
too. And kids grow up and we will go
through stages of life where we will have different needs as
(53:39):
well as a cup in a couple situation as a person and as as
a woman. I think, you know, now I have
different needs than I did before.
I mean, you know, like after like you hit 40, you want to
ground a bit more and stabilize a bit more.
And then you start thinking about legacy.
(53:59):
You start thinking about, you know, what do I leave behind?
What do I 1 still in my life? What do I still want to create
that again in the relationship dynamic, you still both of you
have to find each other again. And I think one thing that David
and I constantly try to do now at our age is to find each other
through this. He's remaining years what he
(54:22):
wants to achieve, what I want toachieve.
And then how how do we make thissystem work for us so that that
is like never going to finish. That's like work in progress.
Yeah, and it's beautiful. It's actually very romantic, I
think, And it can be a lot of things, but it's very romantic
and not easy. And I want to ask you one last
question, and it's a big one, soforgive me.
How do you define success? Oh my goodness, you know.
(54:45):
I know. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. It sounds like a question that I
should have expected, right, Because we are both like, you
know, forecasters. So this is not unusual, but it's
it's like one of those situations when people say, can
you, can you tell me a little bit about yourself?
And because you're so multi layered, you're like, which part
(55:05):
do I start with? Like how like, you know, how do
I angle this story because I could come from different
places. So how do I define success in
the context of this conversation?
I would use a quote that says, if you travel far enough, you
will meet yourself. So I think that would be my
(55:26):
definition of success. I don't know, is that so deep?
And so that's. Beautiful.
No, it's beautiful. It's beautiful.
So thank you for sharing on short notice.
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that's beautiful.
Welcome. Yeah, I think I'm still in the
journey of definition and I still am traveling not just
outwardly but inwardly. And if I travel far enough, I
(55:48):
will meet myself and that will mean I am successful.
That's amazing and I hope the journey never ends.
That's the. So that is a delayed success,
Mikhail. No, but like, but the journey of
finding of of allowing yourself to change is innate.
And so I hope. Yeah.
Yeah, it's a pleasure filled 1 Ithink.
(56:10):
Yeah, and we shall continue to leave some space in our life for
wonder. Yes, yes, yes, very cool.
Well, I have so much more. Like I feel like we could talk
forever. So this is like about any number
of things that we have in commonand we don't have in common.
But thank you for sharing your story today.
I want people to feel like they can reach out to you for the
(56:31):
right purpose, which would be many.
But professionally, who is the right person?
If someone's wanting to have a mindset shift within being a
business owner is that describe your ideal person who would
reach out and work with you. My idol client is someone who
has already a business model because not having a business
model and staying in that foggy experimental area will.
(56:55):
It's not like I can't help them,but they will not benefit from
my strength at its optimal level, which is doubling,
multiplying your revenue. And so if you are already there,
you, you have tested your business models, then you just
want to ramp it up. So that would be my ideal
client. I'm almost system agnostic
(57:16):
because I look at the mechanics of a business and yeah, it
doesn't matter about the age, the faith, the colour, the
gender, I mean that. Sector, Yeah.
So it sounds like not an early stage founder but maybe a scale
up founder. But yeah, anywhere between two
years and let's say 8 years would be my normally like the
(57:36):
ideal client profile. And most of them range from the
solopreneur, which which is not really where my sweet spot is,
is normally there is a team of at least two to five people and
70 people company. But I'm also not getting myself
involved with bigger companies simply because the way I work is
I act as a Co entrepreneur in that particular phase of the
(58:00):
project. So I'm sitting with the founder
as if it is also my journey and my project.
And we look at it with that level of commitment and
ownership from my side. So that's just how I work.
Otherwise I'm to detach and I'm I'm just like giving theories or
giving ideas but not really rolling up my sleeves.
(58:20):
That's not how I work. Yeah.
So would you consider yourself afractional member of the team
for a journey, for part of the journey?
One could say that, but I don't take on a title for the company.
Yeah, cool. Yeah, yeah.
But yes, a fraction that my I'm always on some of a retainer.
So yes, that could go a fractional work, yeah.
(58:42):
That's that may be getting into the weeds, but for the right
people, it'll be helpful to hearexactly if they if they resonate
with you, who who they, who theyshould be cool.
Well, thank you so much for joining me.
Thank. You for having me.
It's been a pleasure to talk to you and to go deep into certain
topics. I mean, actually you've asked me
some really good questions. I'm like, oh wow.
(59:05):
Yeah, I hope so. I hope so.
And I hope people listening can also ask themselves that the
same questions. And I think you've shared with
us some things that, again, likeI said, I have never heard
anyone say we know each other's strength, power, power.
Yeah, we we know each other's power.
Is, is. You've just changed my life.
So thank you so much. Thank you, Michaela.
(59:27):
It's been a pleasure. Thank you and thank you everyone
for listening. I hope that you've enjoyed our
conversation and please feel free to go to
houseofperegrine.com to check out more of what we're doing
with people living abroad. Thank you, Nina, and I'll talk
to you very soon. You're welcome.
OK, that's it for today. I hope you've enjoyed our show.
For the latest insights on living internationally, join us
(59:50):
at houseofperegrine.com to find out how you can connect with our
community. Let's craft our life story with
intention, together.
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My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com