Maintain Your Edge Abroad: Elite Performance Coach on the Tradeoffs you Cannot Afford To Make | Ep 76 - House of Peregrine

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, I'm Mikkel Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes what we are
all about perfectly. Those that craft their life
story with intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I have

(00:23):
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews, I hope
to connect those living internationally more deeply to
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances and meaning making to global

(00:46):
parenting and relationships to make your time abroad more
intentional, edifying, and full of beauty.
Find us at houseofperegrine.com where you can find more ways to
connect with the ethos of Peregrine.
I hope you enjoy today's guest. Let's get started.
Welcome back to the House of Peregrine podcast.
I'm your host, Michael Weber, and today I'm speaking with

(01:07):
Karina Laganiff, a returning guest who is a psychologist and
elite performance coach and PhD candidate with over 15 years of
experience supporting people whose lives play out under
pressure, publicly, professionally and personally
abroad. In her practice, Karina works
with creatives, diplomats, public figures and high
achieving individuals navigatingthe emotional complexities of

(01:30):
international life, career transitions and cultural
dislocation. Her approach is both discreet
and deeply informed, grounded intrauma awareness, cultural
sensitivity, and an understanding of what it means
to carry emotional burdens that are always visible on the
outside but still take their toll.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.

(01:50):
Feel free to like and subscribe wherever you listen.
It helps us out a bunch, even leave a comment.
We read each one. Thank you so much for joining us
today, Karina. Such a pleasure to have you
back. I am so excited to talk to you
again. Thank you so much for having me,
Mikael. It's a very big pleasure for me
to be part of your podcast and to help the community that you
serve so well with your content.Great well, I, I listed off all

(02:13):
of your many credentials and so I want to kind of jump in if
people want to listen to how yougot started and all that, it's a
great story. They can go to the podcast we
did previously. I will put it in the below in
the show notes. But today I wanted to bring you
back on because you're speaking at the forefront of of things
that are very relevant for our for the international community,

(02:37):
of course, but your expertise overlaps in a very interesting
way. And so I want to start with your
PhD that you are candidate for that you were just finishing up.
Tell us a little bit about that because it's just finishing up.
So I think something that make us expert is actually our own
experiences, right? And I think there is no better

(02:59):
university than the university of life.
And although I'm always very cautious with people that just
help other people without credentials, without kind of a
proper training, there is something that comes with life
experiences that is is kind of inexplicable in the theoretical

(03:20):
way you have to experience it. And my, this came after my own
experience of being an adult TCK.
So I'm sure that your community is familiar with what a TCK is
and expecting to be fine with relocation as a mother and
realizing how being a mother wasa completely different story.

(03:43):
Like relocating being a mother was completely different.
But on top of that, something that I had very recently learned
is that I am highly sensitive and it's something that
unfortunately is not taught in universities enough.
We are trying to have some programs starting in London,
starting in California, where sensory processing sensitivity

(04:05):
will be part of the curriculum that is taught to psychologists,
mental health providers, doctorsand also educators.
But I hadn't been taught about that, so I didn't know that it
was highly sensitive. I just felt that my experience
was different from other mothersand and nobody had explained me
that. And of course, I had my own kind

(04:27):
of feeling inaccurate with all these being a TCK that was meant
to be very adaptable and and then at the same time feeling
weird and maybe not adapting as well as all the people that were
not TCK necessarily. I was like, what's going on?
It's like there is something here that is not right.
It's like why? Why is it so different for me?

(04:50):
And this is how my relocation toIreland 10 days postpartum with
my second child with a 27 monthsold older son, well initiated a
very difficult personal process that turned out in being very
interesting and important for the scientific population and

(05:12):
community. So when I returned 11 months
later, so with two internationalrelocation in 11 month
postpartum, I just brought this to the attention of one of my
university teachers here in Barcelona.
And she said you need to do a PhD.
You need to write down what is going on for these population,

(05:34):
what's going on for those moms that as yourself may be highly
sensitive due to sensory processing sensitivity or other
neurodiversities. And, and they're not
experiencing relocation in the same way.
They're not transitioning into motherhood or experiencing
motherhood in the same way. If we talk about all the sleep
deprivation, the high demand, all this care that comes

(05:55):
together with an infant, right? And this is how my journey
started. And I'm very happy to say that
our first article that is a quantitative 1, so based on data
on numbers that we know that especially my community likes
very much is hopefully going to be out by the end of the year.
Right. And what was the most surprising
thing you found from her? Or was there something that was

(06:17):
surprising to you? In the results, you need to be
aware that until the paper is not probably fully published,
I'm not allowed to give many, many details.
But I would say something that was comforting and I think this
is probably what I find as well in my clients when they come to
me. It was the confirmation, the
confirmation of my intuition, the confirmation that no, is not

(06:40):
the same. It is the same and it's not the
same quantitatively. So we can see it that is not the
same. We can see it even among highly
sensitive people, Like it is different also depending on how
you are experiencing your motherhood.
Expatriation does pay a toll that many, many people kind of
just don't see. And it is there.

(07:03):
So I would say probably, yeah. The biggest finding in my
research was that, yeah, I was not exaggerating because I think
many highly sensitive people just feel that they are
exaggerating and and you're not.Yeah.
And for you is highly sense highsensitivity included in in the
neurodivergent cat like in the in the spectrum of

(07:25):
neurodiversity is that. This, yeah.
But funny enough, when we talk about all these categorizing
things, right, in the main research group that we have in
Europe, leaded by Doctor MichaelPluse, it's very sensitive,
right? Because when neurodiversity
first of all has a negative taken by the society, right,

(07:47):
People don't like to be tagged as neurodivergent.
They don't want to feel, just even treat it differently.
There is this push to be neurotypical as something good,
right? As this is how everybody should
be. And the more you look like that
the better. To the extent that I am having

(08:09):
families that are obviously neurodivergent in a
neurodivergent that is included in those spectrum that is
gifted. But even that one is not kind of
well taken as a neurodiversity. Like I'm gifted, I'm not
neurodivergent. And it's like, OK, so sensory

(08:32):
processing sensitivity being an environmental sensitivity being
how your nervous system reacts to environmental simuli, it's
even more difficult because we don't live in a sensitive
environment. Like we live in environments
that are very highly demanding, very filled with inputs that are
quite intense and highly sensitive.

(08:53):
People at this point, unless they adapt their lifestyle, are
the ones that suffer from this trait the most.
So again, it falls again into these negative interpretation of
a trait. So it is not officially tagged
as neuro diversity and I don't know if it ever will.
But yes, you're right, this is how I see it.

(09:15):
Yeah, OK, cool. And I've, I think I've heard you
say or maybe a study you've doneor correct me if I'm wrong, but
I, I believe there's a higher incidence of neurodivergence in
the international community. Do I have that correct Correct.
So this is precisely where what you were telling before, right?
Thank you so much for sharing the resets that I'm doing in

(09:37):
parallel to my reset, which is to see the amount of sensory
processing sensitivity that there is in this community that
we work with, right, the expatriated one.
What we see, and this was very interesting to see in the
International Conference on Sensory Processing Sensitivity
happening in London last May, isthat when we look, they were

(09:57):
looking at refugees and they canhave all the data on the Sense
Sensitivity research.com websitewhere all the updates on
research is there. And what they saw looking at
children, at refugee children isthat of course we tend to see a
higher percentage of sensitivity.
But for one main reason that wasdiscussed in the round table at

(10:18):
the end. And I was very, very happy that
they just frame it this way. The tools that we have at this
moment to measure sensory processing sensitivity are
self-reports. And if you take these tool into
a very sensitive environment, such as being a refugee or being
an expert, right, All of those negative items that will be part

(10:42):
of these questionnaire, right, will be much more easily
relatable to those people because of their survival mode
activation statutes, if that makes sense.
So it was very interesting to see how Karina Grieven, one of
the main researchers in this field, and even Doctor Michael
Clues were saying that we need more objective measures to fully

(11:05):
understand what we are claiming.That is a different brain
activation because we have data on how sensory processing
sensitivity impacts different areas, regions of your brain and
have them much more activated. But we don't have that on a
specific sample of people that are experiencing global
mobility. And we don't have it in a

(11:28):
comparable sample being that they're not in a vulnerable
space, if that makes sense. Because again, it is an
environmental sensitivity. So if we don't control for
environmental variables, we may have a biased result, if that
makes sense. Right.
Yeah. And so I think that what I see

(11:49):
is that you are you're intersecting a lot of different
things that people or maybe we haven't in the past considered
or paid attention to mothers being one and mothers are
usually the ones. Historically this is not so true
anymore, but have been the supporting spouse in a

(12:10):
international move. If we are talking about people
who have been displaced or refugees, mothers would be in a
different state. So it's safe to say, is it safe
to say that we're now stacking difference and and ways of
living. So when someone arrives and

(12:32):
they, when someone arrives to a new country and they are maybe a
mother and they're, they've moved a couple of times.
There's a lot of layers there that they're bringing to that
new place that are not being accounted for by companies, are
not being accounted for by the countries they're arriving to.

(12:52):
What do you, what do you want people to know about that up
from both the side of like of people maybe considering doing
it, but also the side of people who are asking people to do
this? I think you bring up a very
important point and is that fortunately there are these two
possible scenarios, right? The self initiated one, the one

(13:15):
that decide to do that. Among the one we still find many
women, for instance, relocating for love, right?
And then we have the one that institutions are relocating
institutions and and projects aswell, right?
Because you were talking about also how I support some creative
ones that will fall into the category of self initiate
because they are getting right to deprive that they want to be

(13:39):
in that movie, for instance. But still, it's a company that
is going to set the how and the where and and all these kind of
landing space, right? So those two different
categories take or bring in different kind of consequences
for the spouses because sometimes they will kind of be

(14:02):
willing to do that because thereis a project where they may be
also getting a benefit from or whatever.
But then some other times is allbased on good faith, on on love,
on hope, on all these, well, let's do it, let's go for it,
right? This sense of adventure sometime
as well, right? We know that expats are much

(14:22):
more open minded. They have a trait of personality
that are much more open minded, right?
They have this sense of curiosity much more developed.
So all these scenarios sometimesmake a little bit invisible.
What you were talking about, allthese challenges, all these
invisible layers of complexity that come with it, that yes,

(14:44):
sure, you're going for the project, the project is great.
Oh yes, sure, you're going for love, and the love seems to be a
very good reason to move abroad and so on.
But we don't think about all those other little details that
have to do with more political states.
Like as you were saying, what are your rights when you land in
that country beyond the project,beyond the project being the one

(15:06):
that you're establishing with the company?
And perhaps, I don't know, you're made redundant abroad and
you're not thinking about the return tickets.
Like how is it if I made redundant, I don't know, in the
Emirates, how is it if I am there stuck with my family?
Yes, great, they helped me with the relocation.
But what about the return? What about coming back?

(15:29):
What about a person that relocates for love and builds up
a family abroad and separate? What about then?
What about their financial situation?
But not only their financial situation, but their emotional
situation. What is it going to be to on top
of it, not have any more family reunions because they are your

(15:50):
ex's. So you're not going to birthday
parties anymore. You're not going to Christmas
with your ex's family. So you have either to go by
yourself back home or holiday orhave your children to go back
home and then miss on some of the traditions that were in the
place where they were developing.
And we don't talk about that enough.

(16:12):
We don't talk about how it is totake the full picture into
account for both the two of them.
The couple, as I was saying, they might be both finding
themselves redundant in a country where they're both
expats and they don't have any return ticket or when there is a
separation of the two of them. And I think those are very

(16:32):
complex situations that unfortunately I've not spoken
enough when considering moving abroad.
Yeah, I think the way I frame itis that you are lucky, but
you're also you're, you're playing in new levels of
vulnerability. You've maybe never experienced
or have thought of or have accounted for.

(16:54):
And so we've we've done a lot this last season on the podcast
to try and get people to think through that, to have new
agreements, to use the wisdom ofthe collective to ask the right
questions. Because I don't think anyone
sets out to to not know these things.
But it just happens. You're putting yourself in an, I

(17:15):
like to call it like an exercisein vulnerability.
It's like a trust fall, especially as a couple or as a
family. And so that, or as an individual
with a company, it's, it's a bigtrust fall.
And so treating it as such is wise, I think.
And emotionally is actually, youknow, financially is one way to
look at it, but then emotionallyyou are the, the ripple effects

(17:37):
into your family are again, there's a lot of strengths,
there's a lot of great things going on.
But how we've, we talked about this a bit previously, but I
would love for you to give us a way.
Are there ways to kind of minimize emotionally the
potentially some of the more common pitfalls or damage that's

(17:58):
done in families? Is there?
Is there any wisdom you have there?
Absolutely. And I think every time more I
think companies are aware of what you're saying, the
emotional toll that it takes to relocate families, to relocate
people. And unfortunately I don't think
they take it kind of early enough.
They are kind of still in the interventional part is not

(18:21):
something that they I don't know.
Preventatively. Yeah, just just just claim, hey,
we are the kind of company that will support you from your home
country to the. No, they don't.
They'd say we have great services, but they kind of
hidden in the packages and you don't exactly know what they are
and you have to go and get. So it is very sensitive.

(18:43):
And I think there is this lack of awareness that we have more
and more problems in mental health in in adolescence and
childhood. It's increasing crazily and
something that I am trying to bring to the awareness of the
society in general is that of course, like we are experiencing
the challenges of relocation at all levels.

(19:04):
Like there are many more people moving abroad, but there are
many more people experiencing people coming from abroad as
well and being impacted by thosethat are arriving.
Arriving and bringing on new culture, habits or rituals, new
outfits, new understanding of the culture, like all of those

(19:25):
things are impacting us so much and we're not having a guidance.
There is no guidance in how educators should navigate.
And I'll talk, of course, I havemany more international
students, right, in international schools, but
unfortunately it happens also inregular the countryside schools
where they will have immigrant coming and impacting all those

(19:47):
areas and having a final impact on their emotional well-being,
on sense of belonging, on the sense of identity.
I keep hearing how more and moreteenagers are having these fluid
identities. Of course, how wouldn't they?
Like TCKS are not the exception anymore.

(20:08):
We are a growing community that we need to understand much
better. But then next to those children,
they're very high demanded and unstable parents.
No guidance either. No guidance to understand what I
just talked to you about. Like, oh, my children are not

(20:29):
fully Argentinians anymore because they're growing in Spain
or they are not fully Arabic anymore because I'm a diplomat
and they live in seven differentcountries where perhaps they had
different inputs in religion, costume cultures, etcetera.
So all of those things are not even being educated to the
parents, but on top of it, they're not giving the space for

(20:52):
the parents to process it. Like the first one that are in a
very vulnerable place are those parents because they are also in
the survival mode in these very high demanded job positions
where they don't even have the time to understand what is going
on for them, let alone for the couple, let alone their

(21:13):
intimacy. Yeah, yeah.
And this I want to wrap this up really quick because I want to
get to the next thing there. I have to say there are so many
subjects that you are an expert on that I want to bring to our
audience. So I wanted to say two things.
The first is this was my journeyof coming up with House of
Peregrine. Peregrine is that that identity

(21:33):
of not of that being a mix of identities, just to make sense
of it for myself and to bring awareness and advice and culture
to this. And so whatever identity you
find or make or create, do you think that's one way to
inoculate is to identify that you are some turning into

(21:54):
something else? Is that one one way an awareness
you can have that might make things seem a little less
lonely? I do think that's finding people
that can name what you're going through helps a lot.
I, we have a very good psychiatrist in Spain, Marian
Rojas, and she says that understanding is the beginning

(22:17):
of healing. Like when you, when you
understand what you're going through, what you understand
that there is, there are other people going through what you're
going through that it is OK to feel how you feel.
This is something that already starts the journey in a
different way. Like you, you don't have all

(22:38):
these other layer. I always tell my clients how
much kind of telling yourself that you shouldn't be feeling
that is helping you. I don't see the point.
You live, you live in, you live in Europe, you live in a, you're
making $1,000,000 a year. Whatever it is, you should feel
lucky is is something that we don't only hear from the

(23:00):
outside, but we internalize on the inside.
You're living your dream life. You get to move every two years.
Whatever it is, you didn't die in the war.
Like it's an incredible thing that for me at least, the dark
side of gratitude, it can be something that is holds us back.

(23:23):
Yeah, absolutely. The other day I was listening to
a latest research that was published on a TCK podcast that
she, she just interviewed many TCKS, right And in the diplomat
precisely into the diplomat areaand they were talking about this
burden of this assumed privilegeand what she called the feeling

(23:45):
norms, right. All this, there are some
feelings that are allowed that you can feel that you're
entitled to express in a certainway, but there are others that
don't belong to you. You don't, you don't have nor
the permission to feel, let alone express it.
And especially not in certain contexts, right.

(24:05):
And, and this is a big toll thatcomes with, with with this
relocation, especially with the community that we are talking
about that I specialize. Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that that's even just starting there of
being like you're allowed to feel all you're feeling.
I I hear so many good tips coming from you that you can
give to your kids, to you as a couple, and even to yourself if

(24:27):
you're alone is like a let yourself feel everything.
Let yourself change. You're going to change.
Let yourself be entitled to compensation for this beyond
what you think you deserve be entitled to just again, it's a
big privilege. But also it's, it's almost like,

(24:51):
would you say for me, it's a little bit like hazard.
It's like a hazard. It's a dangerous thing to do to
move abroad. And so acknowledging that and
giving yourself the credit for being brave and doing something
that's kind of dangerous emotionally, financially, I
think it's wise and that it's helped me and my kids even to

(25:14):
just be like, you know what, we're doing this because we,
this is the life we want. That doesn't mean everything's
easy. And that doesn't mean that there
aren't certain points where you're, you're going to feel
lonely because not everyone in your class.
Corona is a really good example when everyone was going to their
grandparents and we couldn't the, the, the, the planes

(25:35):
wouldn't go see our family. So unless we swam across the
ocean, we couldn't see them. That's a unique experience.
And I think people who are living abroad have a basically a
multitude of new experiences or they're living a life that's
alongside the people that are living there.
And that doesn't mean we can't come together.

(25:56):
But the freedom to express what you're going through I think is
a really important one that I didn't give myself the 1st 5 or
6 years. I just thought, oh, I'm so
lucky. I'm a guest here.
I have no right to complain or feel sad.
My kids just need to speak Dutchand not complain and that that
didn't do anyone any favors. So it can it can exist that

(26:19):
you're both lucky and it's hard,which sounds, which sounds
obvious, but I think it's one ofthose things that can inoculate
and make things a little bit easier.
The second thing I want to talk about before we wrap this part
portion up when we get into another big topic, which is
therapy burnout. But before we leave this topic,
I want to maybe give people an idea of how what we spoke about

(26:41):
before. How can we if we know we're
highly sensitive or new neurodivergent?
I've seen a lot of people actually realize they're
neurodivergent after they've moved abroad because that's when
they started hitting their limits.
And so is there anything you want more you want to say about
that or tips you want to give orinsights there because you do

(27:03):
have a multitude of experience on this one too.
So I think one of the things that you're bringing up is that
when we move abroad, right, you were, you were addressing it as
you have to give yourself permission to change.
And now you just brought it intosomething different, which is
many things that you have already been always been just
will arise. And I think both are true like

(27:25):
we will change. There are certain things that
are going to change. But when you move abroad,
precisely because you're settingyourself to a situation in the
context that is so, so at the edge of your abilities, there
are many things that you are that will just become much more
evident to you because they are just there in your system, one
that they call it right? You're activated and that's how

(27:46):
you function. And this is now evident to you.
There is no masking or social resources that will help you to
navigate it your role yourself. And there you go.
Now go ahead and be yourself, right?
So I think sometimes as we were saying, it may be that
neurodiversities in nowadays especially what we are seeing is

(28:09):
that they're more and more trendy.
So to say it's like, and it is acombination of the lifestyle
that we leave, OK, There is a lot of screens that are not
helping at all at all. There is a lot of this
fast-paced lifestyle that is nothelping at all.
And then of course, many traits that are proper or more
identified with neurodiversity such as being much more
sensitive to your environment, to sounds, to music, to all

(28:32):
these things become much more evident.
But we also need to kind of testit in different environments and
different life moments, right? This is something that I'm
bringing up in my mental health best practices guidelines is
that we need to be very careful when we diagnose, especially
with this community because the measures that we're using,
they're standardized and they were not crafted on a highly

(28:54):
mobile multicultural community. And the sample where we craft
and we create those tests is very important to all these
numbers that you're going to give as a result of the test,
right? So I think we need to perhaps
start unlabeling things a littlebit and much more, as you were
saying, just dignify and accepting and welcoming whatever

(29:18):
you feel, doesn't matter the label.
You don't need to have a label or neurodiversity specifically
tagged at number XYZ to entitle yourself to feel that you're
overwhelmed by your environment and that you need headphones
when you go into crowds, or thatyou're sensitive to food and

(29:39):
that yes, you don't. You want to stop adapting to
food changes every time you relocate it, and you want to
have a more standardized diet that helps you to be less
impacted by global mobility. Like there's certain things that
is super important to allow yourself to just be the way it
is. And then I think that's

(30:01):
something that we are lacking, especially if you're highly
sensitive or you're neurodivergent.
Is time between transitions meaning that we still pack our
agendas with too many things to do too fast, right?
I'm new there. I need to do all this paperwork,
get to meet all those people, get to do all these things by X

(30:22):
because it will help me adapt. Well, perhaps not.
Perhaps it will actually delay your time of adaptation because
you're going to be overwhelmed. You're going to be completely
collapsed. And something that we know is
that in order to be adapted and feel adapted in your body, you
need to feel a brain deactivation, not overwhelmed

(30:46):
brain. So in order to do that,
expanding the time of transition.
And this is true for everybody. Something that our research said
is that what is essential to a highly sensitive person is good
for everyone. Issues of the highly sensitive
person, we feel it much more intensively.
But everybody would benefit fromlonger transition processes.

(31:09):
This finishing your To Do List per day, having more time
between actions that you take tobreathe, to process, to
acknowledge your body. Something that I see a lot in my
client is that they tend to disconnect themselves from their
bodies because their brain are going so fast that there is kind
of AI don't have time for that. So because I don't have time for

(31:32):
that, well, just just put it on the side and until we have a
psychosomatic symptom, kind of say no pushing through saying I
am here and you need to listen to me.
They wouldn't stop and listen. So most probably if I had to say
something, first of all, decrease the amount of things
that you're going to set yourself to do when relocating

(31:52):
and listen to your body. Take time to listen to your
body. Yeah.
And said another way, I would say you are doing something just
by existing. Put it on your To Do List if you
have to existing in new country,10 check boxes, then put another
three. If you normally have 12 things,

(32:12):
you do it a day. Yeah, that that's such good
advice and but it is it's worthwhile to have a regulated
nervous system to do any of these things.
So I want to move into burnout with therapy specifically.
I love that you're talking aboutthis and you're willing to talk
about this, especially as a psychologist yourself and

(32:34):
someone who sees clients who arecouples, couples and
individuals. I think this with this compound
nature, especially as international people, I think,
and if you have any neurodiversity and then any
difference in culture with how men and women relate or there's,
there's a soup of things that wego into.

(32:56):
So people say all the time, justget help.
It's not that easy. I, I share often until we found
our, the person that helped my partner and I, we had to go
through 5 or 6 different therapists, right?
And that that takes its toll that can itself lead to a
dissolution of a, of a partnership.

(33:17):
And so I don't know what entry point you want to go through
couples or neurodiversity or thecombination or TCKS, but there,
this is real. And so I want you to speak to it
when your clients come to you. Describe therapy burnout for me
if you wouldn't mind. So the first thing to
acknowledge is that we're talking about again, and we just

(33:38):
mentioned it before, right, We're talking about a community
that is feeling this assumed privilege.
And that's the first barrier. Like if I am in this privileged
lifestyle, environment, whatever, why should I need
anybody to support me? I've got everything like I'm

(34:01):
much better than the ones I leftbehind or I took this because I
chose to write. There is also this send of guilt
that I decided that for myself. How come am I going to go and
complain about it? Right.
And all of those layers. Something that we see is that it
just takes therapy to come in their lives later, later in

(34:22):
life. And you were talking about all
these different population that I work with.
Something that we know is that TCK's will take even longer and
I just gave you my example. I was like, how come am I
struggling with relocation to Ireland if I'm a TCK, right and
I am, I am just used to all the moving abroad and I should be

(34:47):
just fine. On top of that, on top of having
all these layers of barriers, ontop of having all these barriers
to reach out to therapists, Theythen encounter the difficulties
to have a therapist that get it,that understand what they're
going through that will actuallyvalidate what they are

(35:10):
experiencing, the difficulties that they are that they're going
through and giving them adapted tools to their lifestyle.
Because I still remember myself when we went to a couple of
therapies and her saying, well, just get the help of the
grandparents. And I was like, that's very
Spanish style. But my parents are not here.

(35:32):
So how are you intending me to reach out to them?
Like, should I send them by plane?
Do you know how much that cost? Like there was no understanding
of the context. And actually in their intake,
there is all these lack of subtle questions that helps them
to have the full context, right.They will go through very

(35:55):
generalized questions and they will forget a lot of them that
have to do with the context, right?
And there is a lot of assumptions that of course,
because perhaps we have to have the money, then yes, just send
them abroad. What's the problem?
And it's like, well, maybe my parents are not in good shape to
take care of the kids. Or maybe the country where my

(36:17):
parents live our, I don't know, is in war at this moment.
You know, like there is no awareness on all these other
layers of complexity that are around the families.
So if you add that to the fact that sometimes, just like you
and I, we may be using the same language but not giving the same
meaning to the words, therapy becomes a very tricky place for

(36:43):
patients to feel safe. Unless the therapist, first of
all, is aware of the impact of being an expert, of living
abroad. And also about the possibility
of being using the same language.
Because I speak 4, but I probably don't speak any of them
to the level of any natives because I'm a TCK.
So my languages have been acquired in context and have a

(37:07):
certain meaning to me that doesn't have the same for you as
a native in an Indies language or for Spanish for instance, or
Catalan. This session in specific with my
husband was in Catalan all the time because I am fluent in
Catalan. But do I feel comfortable
emotionally in Catalan? That was not a question I was
asked. I was taken in as a Catalan

(37:29):
speaker and the session went along in Catalan.
So there is also all these difficulties that bring, as you
were explaining yourself, couples and individuals to seek
support first of all, in a stateof very high vulnerability
because they will wait until they can't take it in anymore.

(37:49):
And then in entering therapies that kind of force them to
compartmentalize their stories, to just use one part of the
story because we identified theyhave the tools for that, but not
for all the other ones. And then it becomes an added
burden. I am just this person that has
this impossible life that my family don't get that in the

(38:12):
couple my partner is not gettingbecause I although we're sharing
the life, we're not sharing the experience if that makes sense.
We don't have the same experience and on top of it,
when we seek the help, I'm misunderstood.
Yeah, which can add a lot of traumatic layers if you're not
careful. And so maybe, and especially in

(38:36):
couples therapy is really trickybecause if it's not working for
you, there's not you have to, you have to get through that
with your partner. And, and in my experience, being
accused of being too proud, being too difficult, not wanting
to take ownership because I didn't feel safe, not being

(38:58):
willing to let go of control. There was a lot of things that
were hurled my way because I just simply was like, I know I
can feel safe. I don't feel safe here.
Not that they weren't great therapists or great for others,
but the level of complexity we were we have, we are all
navigating really does need a special expertise.

(39:20):
And so when I would say how I would describe burnout is you
don't feel you have, you're sick, let's say, and you have
nowhere that can help you fix and that is its own level of it
can just learn lead to burnout, burnout.
So it's this extra radio layer that's going on every part of

(39:42):
your life. And so it's in your parenting,
it's in your marriage, it's in your work, it's in the grocery
store, it's in the schoolyard, every layer of like, I have
nowhere. I am not doing well, but I have
nowhere, no one who understands why even I don't understand why
I'm not even giving myself permission.

(40:03):
To feel like there should be a problem and so this can get us
into some deep trouble, I think in our population and with with
this experience. And this, this therapy burning
out comes out of this, as you were saying this, trying to seek
a solution, to look for somebodythat gets it, that gives you
those answers. And because you don't find them,

(40:25):
that's where you end up in that situation.
You're just describing this additional layer of
vulnerability because even thosethat were meant to give me that
safe space to be myself, to learn how to allow myself to
accept those emotions, to let them in, to navigate them,
they're not doing so if they're not doing it, at some point you

(40:51):
get a burnout of therapy. So one of my client describe it
that way because they say until I found you, I just thought that
therapy was another place where I was being hurt, not heard
hurt. Yep.
So I didn't want therapy anymore.
I was afraid of going back to therapy.

(41:12):
Yep. That's what I call therapy, but
not. Yeah, yeah.
And it's a, it's a fine line between being challenged and
being, but it starts with that safety and knowing what you're
going through, not what you're going through, but also the
level of complexity. And so when your clients come to
you, is that the most common thing you hear is that you have

(41:34):
to get them in a place where they're accepting their
experience? That's one of the main things
most of the time they need to validate what they've gone
through that I would say the first layer that we need to kind
of detach a lot of time is moneyand resources.
Like, you know, my client would just come and say, I know, I

(41:55):
know, I'm sorry, I'm bringing that, but it's really hurting me
or it's really burning me, like having them to stop apologizing.
Yeah. And is that yeah, to back up.
So is that because what I see a lot, and I think you mentioned
in our previous conversation wasthey are often highly paid or
or. And so these are people that

(42:16):
don't feel like they should haveproblems because they have
enough money. And so that is very interesting
play coming from a place of privilege and apologizing for
having problems. Yeah, yeah.
And so they think. A lot of time to just normalize
that you have the right to have problems and let's less the

(42:37):
financial numbers because sometimes they even bring them
up to session and say let's let the financial aspects on the
side. The fact that you're going to be
paid 3 millions for your projectdoesn't take away that you're
scared that you're stressed thatit is something that is going to
impact your family and you're crazily thinking and rethinking

(42:59):
whether you should or you shouldn't what how it's going to
impact your children. It's completely valid to have
all those thoughts beyond the money that you're going to be
paid. And so that and that works on
the other end too. You were just speaking to me
about it's usually women, but men.
You have a client that's a man who is now dealing with that

(43:22):
change of identity that comes from being with their partner.
And we've talked about that quite a bit on the podcast.
But give us some of the complexity that people who are
supported, supporting someone who's moving go through because
they're not working. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. And something that it's even

(43:43):
more intensified is that you're so lucky because you get to get
all these lifestyle for free. And you're going to have to say
that we're quoting here both of us all the time because it is
not true. Like there is all these
emotional toll that is not visible.
And then all these financial onethat we say that if there is a

(44:06):
separation is also not taken into account or even mentioned
in the contract of the employer that is taking one of the of, of
the partners, right? But there is especially all
these transition, right? And and as we were saying, a lot
of time is the women that goes through this transition.
And for us, we know that turninginto a mother is a huge change.

(44:29):
I talk about it with this beautiful word from sociology
that is matricens, right? We go through this matricens
process and a lot of the people that read what I published say
when are you going to start talking about patricians?
When are you going to start talking about the man that is
confronting all these social expectations to be the one

(44:50):
earning the money, to be the onethat is holding the pens in the
family and that is doing all those stuff?
And sometimes depending on the culture this man is coming from,
will be even more accentuated and will add layers of
complexity in terms of guilt, interms even of shame for doing

(45:11):
that. Shame on you.
You're going to be and live withyour wife and you're going to be
paid by your wife and do housework.
Come on, how is that men enough,right.
So there is this layer of complexity that comes also on
this end for men that will go into these transitions and take

(45:32):
this role. And then on the side of the
women, of course, we still live in a very inequal world where
even when you move abroad and you try to get a job, you're
going to be paid less. In some countries, these
inequalities are even more inequal.
And then of course, there are all these social expectations of
women to just do the work at home with the kids and

(45:55):
everything, because the baby needs the mother, right?
Otherwise we would have the sameequipment to feed them.
We don't, right? So you should be there.
And one other thing that I have to work a lot with my clients is
take this shoot away from their vocabulary.
Like nothing you don't want to do that.

(46:18):
You should be doing like, let's look at what you want to do.
Because even with global mobility, there is a lot of
questioning what you feel is right because you have all these
cultural shock and things that will be brought into your
awareness that perhaps you were very, very clear before that you

(46:38):
will not breastfeed. But you just landed in this
country where breastfeeding is like top, top, top.
And if you don't, you have all this shame and guilt that will
come from this environment. And then you will be dealing
with that from your environment.And then the questioning from
your back home, cultural family and friends saying why are you

(46:59):
even breastfeeding? And then being in this limbo
space, not being understood fromthose back home and those in the
country where you are because you're questioning yourself in
so many ways. And the same happened for men in
many other ways that are still very invisible.
Yeah. And I like to call it your.
Your, it's a little bit like a startup.

(47:21):
You're flying the plane while you're creating it.
Yes. You're doing that with your own
culture inside yourself, inside your family, inside your
marriage. If you're in one and you're, if
you're dating, it's also complex.
You're, you're creating your ownrules and that, that, that's a
lot of cognitive overhead. I always say it's like building
a custom home instead of just moving into one.

(47:44):
You're picking all the knobs andthe handles and the you're
picking every single part of your life and that it's a big
job, it's worthwhile, it's very satisfying.
In the end, you get something very beautiful.
But that toll is not always seen.
Nor understood that is differentfor each individual.
We were just mentioning this difference between men and
women, but among those men and women, there's so many

(48:08):
individual ones. And we started talking about the
neurodiversity tool that is going to be impacting that.
But then also the how each of them is received in this new
location, right? As we were saying, in some
countries, women will be very much more, I do not like
demanded by the the place where they land because women have

(48:29):
high expectation or men will have high expectation in that in
that place. And then especially if they are
being moved by companies or institutions, there is these
that also adds a layer of different experiences because
the normally the employer is going to be taking care of their
employee and many times forget about the spouse, the children

(48:52):
and so on. Especially on on a kind of
landing state, right? Like what is it to land in a
country where you don't understand what the person at
the pharmacy is telling you, where you can't help your
children with the homework because you don't understand the
teacher And how it is to just mainly just, I don't know, maybe
subscribe to the gym, but have all this culture shock on how

(49:14):
things are done and just being seen as you're this privileged
person that does it doesn't haveto work, right?
So it's important to acknowledgethat there are differences in
both men and women, but then also within the experience
individually and depending on how the context supports you.
Yeah. So I want to ask kind of a

(49:35):
strange question because I thinkyou can hang with it once we've
acknowledged this, once we've acknowledged this, once we
accept it, once we account for it.
Is there a way to play with this?
Is there a way because in my work that I've, I did over the
last few years with, with talking about money and talking

(49:59):
about how the economy doesn't acknowledge care work.
And then within a couple, it's kind of a power dynamic that is,
you know, it, it's, it's accepted.
I have to say that the most interesting thing about my Ted
talk is that I thought that I, Iunderestimated the amount of

(50:21):
women who are the breadwinners in their family, were very angry
that I brought these things up because the power dynamic plays
to their advantage. They're using, it's part of
their equation. And so I asked one woman, she
was telling me, oh, I would never do these things to my
spouse. You know, he had moved to a new

(50:42):
country for her job, stay at home parent.
And she said, you know, your Tedtalk isn't relevant for me
because I would never do that tomy spouse.
And I said, oh, what if he had an affair?
She goes, oh, yeah, I'd cut him out.
And I was like, so that would mean he had no visa, He would
have no home, He would have no. And so there's this.
And within countries, I think it's the same.

(51:03):
There's this built in power dynamic that is present and
accepted and maybe even on purpose.
So is there a way we can transform that somehow?
And I know that's kind of a big question.
The way we do it often with an intimacy is like games, right?

(51:26):
So This is why we have so it's very erotic games, but it in in
terms of immigration and having to know a language and is there,
what is the transcendent next step after you've accepted,
after you've acknowledged, afteryou've taken that on board?

(51:46):
Is it just acknowledging it and laughing?
No, I think some of the things that I would say are more
difficult for people and I, I was just posting about that the
other day, is that the first step is acknowledging and then
is moving into what am I lookingforward to building, right?

(52:09):
What is it that, OK, so these are my challenges.
OK, So what do I want to leave? How do I want to leave those
things? How do I want to navigate them?
How do I want things to be for me, for instance, from a
financial statutes, for instance, how do I secure myself
financially when I move abroad? And then it's like, and what am
I ready to let go in order for that to happen, right?
Because I think many people haveall these big dreams at the

(52:32):
beginning of of a journey, like we're going to do it this way
and this is what we're going to gain.
And that is like, fantastic. This is what you want to get.
OK. But in order to do that, you
need to get rid of all the things which are what you were
just mentioning, right? It's like, well, as long as
we're together, everything is fine.
But if you cheat on me or you'renot a human anymore, you know,
the father of my children anymore, you're that cheater

(52:54):
that just got somebody that, yeah, you shouldn't have.
And so that just takes you away of anything that is legit to any
human being, especially a personthat you shared intimacy with,
that you build life with. You have children with, right.
Something very sensitive that I have.
I have a podcast, not a podcast,an Instagram Live with Patricia

(53:18):
Paper now that specializes in blended families is how
difficult it is to navigate divorce and blended families
when there is an ocean in between and how many times,
especially with families, because I think that's one of
the thing I specialize the most,right?
There is this completely unawareness of the children.

(53:39):
And you were mentioning them before.
And it's like how that impacts the children, right?
Because if you divorce and you have no children, where it's
going to be hard and you're probably going to have to move
back home or choose where you want to go.
But when there are the children in between, that's not possible
anymore. And as you were saying, there
was all this care toll that you paid for for many, many years

(54:01):
that is not being compensated. There is this, I am abroad
because of those children as well.
That is not being taken into account either.
So I think we need to design andagain you and I are talking
about what the idea would be andis.
We need to acknowledge, we need to decide, we need to have a
plan, we need to have those important conversations that I

(54:23):
think Rhoda did very good job inlast session of Expert Couple
Summit where she was talking about those important
conversations that needs to happen before relocation.
And during relocation. You also get to know what it is
like because again, we're talking about each scenario
being very different legally wise, financially wise and so

(54:44):
on. And setting these kind of
agreements upfront and, and understanding that in order for
that to become what you go through, you have to let go on
some other things such as as youwere saying, this power dynamic.
Am I ready to stop having this dynamic work because I am the
the main bread earner? I am entitled to XYZ.

(55:08):
Are we ready to give up on thosedynamics our Because if we are
not ready to give up on those dynamics then we're just
building a dream. But not in life.
But it's a dangerous dream. It's a dangerous dream for the
other person. And so I guess the way I would
frame what you're saying is what, what I think happens right

(55:28):
now is people give up their safety for the dream.
And I'm encouraging people to not give up their safety for the
dream. They can have both safety and a
dream. But I also think visas are set
up that this level of violence that I, that I felt when they
changed the Netherlands changed their visa structure overnight.

(55:49):
And suddenly if you lose your job, like having a visa, first
of all, is a is a new level of vulnerability.
If you're, if you're dependent on someone who has a visa,
that's another level of vulnerability.
So you're in the country at the mercy of your partner's job and
then your partner still wanting you, that's another layer,

(56:11):
layer. And So what I, what I, I guess
at the heart of it for me, it's a little bit of a violent
system. And so that's something that if
you don't take personally and know it exists, it's a lot
easier to, to plan for. And it's not your partner's
fault, it's not their company's fault.
It's kind of a violent system. So you're entering a new level

(56:33):
of vulnerability, also fun and adventure and all the other
stuff. But I think if you plan at the
safety level, it also helps a lot with the rest.
And that's emotional safety, financial safety.
And so that for me is something I, I want people to understand
is it's inherently, again, you have to be adventurous, but you

(56:54):
don't have to give up your safety either with therapists or
with your partner or financially.
At any point and, and what you say is, is this part also of
when you talk about violence, something that we see as well is
that there is a higher rate of violence among experts and a
lot, a lot of it is psychological violence, right?

(57:15):
And all these manipulation and dependency, financial dependency
that has to do. But unfortunately, some of it is
also physical abuse that happensdue to this dependency.
Like, how am I going to dare to go to a psychologist if I, what
I want to say is that I am beingbeaten at home and he's the one

(57:37):
that has to pay for the therapist who I want to talk
about it. So all those things are adding
layers also of vulnerability that are real, real meaning that
they're not only psychological or financial, but also physical.
And the same happens with minors.
We, we see that a lot of our population unfortunately

(57:58):
experience a lot of sexual abusein, in their developmental
years. And and it has to both to do a
part with this lack of safety interms of constantly changing
social interactional norms. So when an abuser is part of
their environment, it might be because they didn't quite

(58:19):
understood what was going on because of these cultural
differences and how the child was not instructed in how to
perhaps say no. Doesn't matter whether it's a
new country. If it's a no for you, it's a no
everywhere, right? And then there is also
unfortunately the violence that most of the time happens within
the family because unfortunatelyonly only 20% of the cases is

(58:43):
somebody from the closed environment not being directly
blot related and only 10% is violent.
Violent meaning that 90% of the time is very subtle, is very
build upon the gears. And if you think about
relocation, that brings an additional layer of complexity
because your parents are the only one that remain stable.

(59:06):
They are the only one that are with you all along.
So how dare you going to go ahead in a foreign country where
you know nobody, what you have no system, what you don't even
know what are your rights and say that your partner is abusing
on your child or that your father is abusing on yourself.
It's it's very complex. Yeah.

(59:26):
So that's another layer of you really are.
Your family is everything, especially for kids.
Like they are your only ones. Yeah.
They're the only one that remains stable.
So it it becomes this dependency, this emotional
dependency that adds a layer of complexity and vulnerability to
the unit. Yeah.

(59:46):
So would you say that for me this is like how does anyone
make it through this? How does and and make it
through? You're not going to make it
through unchanged, but what are the questions you would ask
yourself if you were in a coupleor a family constellation to
maybe test if you're strong enough to do this to if you have

(01:00:09):
the choice and you want to to keep reasonably safe
financially, emotionally. Are there I mean they always say
green flags or are there advice you would give to?
Be able to check because until you're in it, you don't really
know. They say you don't know a person
until you see them with their parents or something.

(01:00:31):
I would say there's another layer of that.
You don't really know a person until you've lived abroad with
them. There's another, like you said,
things that emerge that have always been there that maybe
would have stayed latent and good things too, good things,
amazing things. But there's also these other
less trick, there's more tricky things.
And so are there ways, things you can ask, ways of preparing?

(01:00:55):
So the first thing I would say is that not necessarily each
relocation is the same as we were saying for a person,
because you're thinking about the two of them moving abroad.
So the two of them being like inyour country, my country or
Switzerland, right? So going to Switzerland, but in
some scenarios, many, many couples, as I was saying, would
move to one of the partners country, right?

(01:01:18):
And when I say one of the partners country, I can also say
one of the sites companies or institutions, right?
I am moving to my husband's diplomat institution and this is
the institution that is going tokind of frame what is going to
happen for both of us and for me, right?
I think there is the part unfortunately I don't work with

(01:01:42):
sided responsibility in terms ofhey you're the diplomats or
you're the one moving them abroad.
So you are the one responsible for I work on a 5050
responsibility. Like you are responsible for
what is happening to your familyas much as you are as well.
Like if you want to move into this diplomat life, just get
informed. Like get the information

(01:02:03):
yourself. Be the one that is self informed
of how things are going to go for you in any possible
scenario. Get the easy information.
Don't rely on the other one thathe'll know.
Like he's the expert so I can ask him because that's where all
the manipulation on the information is much more
accessible because it's like, well, you don't understand
anything. So I can tell you whatever I

(01:02:23):
please and I can tell you the story the way I want you to hear
it. And you will just be
additionally even more vulnerable, right?
So I think there is this beginning of the journey
starting with individual responsibility.
And unfortunately as you were saying and we have been saying
along, right, people are just going into the journey that's

(01:02:44):
going to be fun and that's it. And they don't look into the
long term. They don't look into how is it
going to be for me, how is it going to be for you.
And This is why when I work withcouples, the first thing that I
do is individual assessment. Individual assessment that gets
me to understand how each of them work.
How are each of them going to confront the next experience?

(01:03:05):
How is it going to be for them given their own trajectory,
personality trait, how they do things, right?
And that gives me already a sense of, OK, well, this is
going to be challenging for you because if you don't make any
decision, for instance, in your life.
I have a couple that is like that.
They're now moving from Spain toBelgium, but he is in Belgium

(01:03:26):
and he's been in Belgium for longer, right?
And she's the one that is expatriate, creating for the
first time both Spanish. But he's been in Belgium for a
while now. So he knows Belgium and she's
relocated because he has a job there, but she has to start from
zero. So is a relationship that is led

(01:03:49):
by him making the choices. They've been together for years
and all along their relationshiphas been led by him making the
choices and the decision. He's he's expressing that he's
done with that, right. But when she starts putting on
her little foot down, like, OK, then this is going to be how
it's going to be in Belgium. And this is he's not feeling

(01:04:09):
comfortable because the dynamic he's not used to.
Yeah, right. So everything start with first
of all, acknowledging, OK, we are in a certain dynamic that
when we move abroad, this dynamic is not necessarily going
to change and in some circumstances is going to add
vulnerability to the couple. So I think it's super important

(01:04:31):
to gain self-awareness and self understanding before you
initiate any journey. How do I work?
Like, I didn't know I was so adaptable until I understood,
oh, I'm a TCK. That's what I do.
All right. So that's why I gave in here and
here and here and here and here.Oh, OK.
Had I known that TCKS have descendancy to be hyper

(01:04:52):
adaptable and just give in and just yes, sure, I'll just be
resilient, probably I wouldn't have given on so many things I
had in the past. And of course, when I change, my
relationship changes as well. There is a need for internal
activation, right? I keep hearing a lot of

(01:05:12):
resistance in my in the couples when I work with them.
Why should I be always the one initiated or presenting the
problem or saying like, well, are you interested in the
change? Yeah, because if you are
interested in the change, then don't expect the other one to be
the one activating it, because maybe he's not.

(01:05:34):
Yeah. So, yeah, it's often that men
don't want it to change. But what I've said, there's a
really beautiful book by Mark Gaffney and others have said,
you know, every, every crisis ofa relationship is a deepening of
intimacy is a, is a, is an asking for a deepening of
intimacy. And so that I think if we trust

(01:05:56):
that in our partners, they want to stay with you, but it has to
change. That's that's a.
Really good thing you were saying before.
It's like you need to know what you want to gain.
Yeah, but then you have to agreein action.
What? You're ready to let go?
Are you ready to let go? Yep, and that don't let go of

(01:06:17):
safety is what I want I want. People to absolutely every
point. At no point you should feel more
vulnerable that, as we'll say, you will already be just by the
fact of being an expert. Yeah.
But what I think that what I learned I think from this Ted
Talk experience is often that iswhat's happening is people are

(01:06:40):
giving up their safety and that that shapes things a certain
way, shape society a certain way, shapes the financial
systems a certain way. So I think these conversations
can't are always a little bit fraught because it's outside the
norm. And so for me, starting with
acknowledging that that being what you're saying, this extra

(01:07:00):
layer of being vulnerable is a really good framing to face it
as a couple or as a family, so you're facing it together
instead of fighting each other. Exactly.
Be clear from the start. Yeah, yeah, it's another, it's
another interesting battle to start in the middle, but yeah,
cool. Is there anything else I want to

(01:07:24):
be mindful of your time because we're closing up our time.
Is there anything else about your next phase of research that
you want to talk about? The postdoc I think you said
that you're working on. Is there anything you want to
share with us on that further that we haven't talked about?
Well, I think the most importantthing that that I don't know if
it's going to turn into a postdoc or not, but is this

(01:07:46):
understanding that well, we are like life is moving into a place
where change is the only constant that we have.
And therefore we need to, as youwere saying, like the world
works the way it is working at this moment because we are
supporting and sustaining dynamics and systems that are no

(01:08:09):
longer the accurate ones and theright one for what is going on
for the world that we live in, right.
So in order to stop supporting and just prolonging the
challenges and the problems, we need to start activating changes
in how we see things, how we name things, what we do with

(01:08:31):
things, right? And I think a lot of it, we have
the data, we're still not activating it in real life.
So I think the next steps on my end at least is to bring this
awareness to big companies, big institutions that are mobilizing
families. I think we need to activate some
of the system that they have, asI was saying at the bottom of

(01:08:52):
the list, but not upfront and putting them in a different
position such as you and I are saying, safety first, Safety at
Work, safety in the relationship, safety in school,
safety. Safety has to be there.
And how to create safety is verycomplex, especially in a
multicultural environment as we are all navigating because for

(01:09:15):
each person, safety looks in a different way, right?
But it doesn't feel different, if that makes sense.
So we have that, we have that. Can we help people feel safe?
Can we create tools that help usreally measure how safety people

(01:09:36):
feel not are not are on a numberbecause they have financial
security because not on a number, how do they feel from
there? Then we can start activating
real change and move into something different.
But I think at this point, we still don't understand, we're
still not fully understanding the impact of global mobility on

(01:09:58):
us as individuals that are globally mobile, but also on
those that receive US and are impacted by us landing their
country and their culture and soon.
And neither for the companies that are still spending billions
of dollars, EUR, you name the coin in relocating families
without giving them the safe frame and therefore just just

(01:10:22):
failing. Just failing, failing the person
behind the job, which is, which is the people I work with the
people. Yeah, great.
So beautifully said and I'm so, so happy we got to touch on so
many topics today. I I love that you were able, you
and I are able to hop around like that together.
So many important things we covered.

(01:10:43):
If people want to reach out to you either to participate in any
research you have going on, because I know last time we
spoke, I ended up doing your motherhood survey and sending it
out to my community. But is there anything?
What's the best way people can reach you if they either want to
work with you or they want to follow?
What your research is is up to what's the best way.

(01:11:05):
I would say I'm very active, as you were mentioning before, and
LinkedIn, I think that's one of the networks that I would say
help me to reach out to most of the people that are in the
positions to help me do the changes that I want to, right?
Because I think there's still need, again, like we were
saying, no, they're very brainy people and we need to move them
into the body. So bring their awareness on how

(01:11:26):
everything is interconnected. And for them to reach out at the
best performance, they need to be at the best state of mind and
that includes their emotions, right?
So a lot of it is on LinkedIn. I do post some things on
Instagram, but I'm finding it a little bit challenging.
I might get a community manager or somebody to do that for me,
but there are some things there too.

(01:11:47):
If you want something a bit morekind of interactive.
I am always, always happy to collaborate with, with podcasts.
So there are different postcasters just like yourself
that I've, I've been invited to and, and I'm touching on
different topics that we have maybe perhaps in a little bit
more depth individually if you're interested.
But then I'm, I'm a very approachable person.

(01:12:08):
So you can always reach out to me by e-mail and if there is any
way I can possibly help you or Ican perhaps even just help you
to find the right person, I willbe happy to do so.
So just use my e-mail, go to my website.
My trainings for companies are going to be in a separate
website but attached to my website as well.
So www.expertworldpsychology.comis where you can reach out to me

(01:12:33):
directly and you have my phone, WhatsApp and everything.
Great. Thank you so much.
It's been a pleasure to talk to you and I cannot wait.
I'm sure you'll be back again. Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me. Thank you for your wonderful
questions and especially for thereframing that I think make
everything clear to your your community and the people that

(01:12:55):
are listening to us. Great.
Thank you all to all of you for listening to the podcast.
Please like and subscribe wherever you're listening to
this. It helps us a whole bunch.
And join us next time on the House of Peregrine podcast.
OK, that's it for today. I hope you've enjoyed our show,
the latest insights on living internationally.

(01:13:16):
Join us at houseofperegrine.com to find out how you can connect
with our community. Let's craft our life story with
intention, together.

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Maintain Your Edge Abroad: Elite Performance Coach on the Tradeoffs you Cannot Afford To Make | Ep 76

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Maintain Your Edge Abroad: Elite Performance Coach on the Tradeoffs you Cannot Afford To Make | Ep 76