New Visa Policies: The Future of Global Work with Dr. Kaisu Koskela | Ep 71 - House of Peregrine

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, I'm Mikkel Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes what we are
all about perfectly, those that craft their life story with
intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I've

(00:23):
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews, I hope
to connect those living internationally more deeply to
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances and meaning making to global

(00:46):
parenting and relationships to make your time abroad more
intentional, edifying, and full of beauty.
Find us at houseofperegrine.com where you can.
Find more ways to connect with the ethos of Peregrine.
I hope you enjoy today's guest. Let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome backto the House of Peregrine
podcast. Today I am joined by Doctor

(01:08):
Kaisu Koskela, an anthropologist, researcher, and
lifelong traveler who spent nearly 30 years living and
working across more than 80 countries.
Originally from northern Finland, Kaisu grew up near the
Arctic Circle and now studies global mobility, digital
nomadism, and the rise of remotework visas.
She's just finished as a postdoctoral researcher at

(01:28):
Radbound University in the Netherlands, where she explored
how our choices around movement,work, and belonging shape our
lives and our societies. What I find so compelling about
Kaisu is that she doesn't just study these questions from afar,
she lives them. Today, she's bringing that rare
mix of lived experience and deepinsight and research to our
conversation. Kaisu, welcome to the podcast.

(01:51):
I'm so glad you're here. Thank you so much.
I'm very, very happy to be here.Yeah.
Nice, Let's just get started. I want to just start from the
beginning, growing up how you did and then we'll move into
your the rest of your work. I'm, I'm, I have to say, when I
first encountered you online, I,it was a rare mix that I don't

(02:11):
often experience, which is someone's doing the work that I
have been thinking about that I can't do myself.
And so, so your research and your insights on it are really
are, yeah, answering a lot of questions I have about the world
and about travel and living internationally.
So tell us how you grew up and how you got to be Kaisu.

(02:34):
Well, indeed, if I just comment on the work part, like because
this is a life that I've been living anyway and I'm very
fortunate now to have found workthat is actually fulfilling
those, you know, answering thosequestions for myself as well.
Because things like when you when you meet researchers of

(02:54):
future of work or digital nomadism or any of these things,
normally there are people who come from outside and I'm very
much an insider researcher. And if things came into my life
in a different order. So I'm from a place up north in
Finland where basically everything is far away from
there. So I wanted to see it all.
And we did travel when I was a kid with my family as well on

(03:17):
holidays and lots and stuff. But it wasn't enough for me.
So as soon as I finished high school, I set off to go and work
in different parts of world and do different things.
In fact, I went on a package holiday great trip to Rhodos,
Greece with a friend and ended up working there on the bus in.
And this is funny because I'm going back after I think 50 and

(03:39):
20 year break next week for someone's bachelor party,
someone who we met there. So I'm getting a full circle
moment in a matter of a week. But that was, yeah, I, I, I left
to go and I just kept going pretty much.
So your family lived in the sameplace when you were growing up
in? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(03:59):
I didn't travel. I'm not from a diplomatic family
or anything like that. In fact, I have a brother who
still lives in my hometown within a matter of couple of
blocks of his life. Life is exactly circling around
a little block in my hometown still.
And we grew up very differently,wanting different things.
So we were just laughing about that.
Because he believes that the place is at the belly button of

(04:22):
the world and that has everything you could ever want
within a matter of couple of blocks.
Whereas I'm like, nothing is enough.
Like in a way I just want to. I've always just wanted to
experience the whole world. To me, it's not about popping
into places, it's about making sure I have enough time to
understand the place too. And location, Like I don't

(04:42):
collect countries. They're not country.
Borders are not very important to me.
There's a lot of beautiful regions within countries that
people should perhaps focus on more than just the countries.
But yeah, I've, I've had a very varied professional life as
well. I was never stuck in a box.
So after working in the bar scene and restaurant scene for a
long time in Greece and in London, I end up in

(05:05):
hairdressing. Actually, I did an
apprenticeship in London, in Covent Garden, and I worked in
that for quite a while and then at some point I got the urge to
go to university, but I was already like 26, I think, at the
time when I figured out that theFinnish government is very
generous in education. We of course leading the piece

(05:25):
of testing around the world in our education standards, but we
also put a lot of money into it.So if you get accepted to study
at the university anywhere in the world, the government will
pay for them. Wow.
And I figured at that point I'm like, this sounds like a good
deal. So I picked a university that I
thought would be a lot of fun, which was University of Malta in

(05:49):
Mediterranean island nation. And I started studying and I
thought I, I was just going to do a bachelor's in, you know,
enjoy the semi free ride of it. But to be honest, we have a
saying in Finnish that you lose control of the moped.
And that's exactly what happenedto me.
And I end up in a lot of different universities around

(06:10):
the world and eventually with a PhD as well in anthropology,
studying a lot of different things.
Yeah. So I want to ask you, did you
always know that you were different than your brother?
Because I hear this a lot that people and I call them
peregrines. That's why we use the word
peregrine is they, they knew from a very early age that they
were different somehow, their worldview, their desires.

(06:33):
And as you said, like I just always there's, it's never
enough, right? Like it's never enough.
The world is big. Do you remember when you
realized that? Not as a kid because as I said,
we did go on like family holidays and stuff.
And both my parents had in theiryouth lived a little bit more
international lives, but then settled into one place.

(06:54):
So I didn't really think about it.
It's just like when we grew up, somehow the things he was
interested in were already therewhere he was.
And I always say I'm, I'm kind of jealous in a way that he's
very happy with this small circle of life, right?
Whereas I always had to go look for something bigger and stuff
like I, I love my life the way it is and I'm consciously living

(07:14):
it on the move. But at the same time, you always
give up things, right? Like you do give up a lot of
even basic things like I travel with a backpack and that's
pretty much all I have with me. I don't I want to have 5 nice
dresses with me but in fact I can only carry 3.
So even things like that or likehaving continuous hobbies, going

(07:37):
to the same gym or you know, even seeing your friends and
family and everyone often enough, you do give up a lot.
So in a way, I'm a jealous as someone can be happily live life
in a much smaller circle. But yeah, I don't I don't know
what it is. We do we laugh about it a lot,
how different our lives are. Yet we come from the same place

(07:57):
and the same upbringing and we feel like we are very connected
in that way. So yeah, I think it's just
personality issues too, right to.
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Yeah, well, I'm, I'm that personin my family, so everyone else
is like more settled. And I've always wondered about
it, but it does feel older than me.
It feels like it came in me. And so getting into your

(08:20):
research a little bit, most recently you were doing your
postdoc, if I'm correct, at BradBradbout University in the
Netherlands. And so you've made basically a
career of working in this field,which happened before it was
cool. Like I feel like digital nomad
visas are, I mean, they've, they're not new, but they're not

(08:42):
that old. No, no, they are.
They are pretty new and like thevisas themselves started coming
out during COVID. But if we talk about digital
nomadism as well, the media is portraying as something as if
that was new and it's not true. I was living a digital nomad
lifestyle before the word word like that terminology was not

(09:02):
there with a bunch of other people who also didn't call
themselves digital Normas because we had never heard of
that terminology. But of course, people have been
able to. Ever since technology came to
our life and laptops got small, enough people have been able to
travel. I've literally met, I met a lot
of people who claim to be the original digital Norma, the
first one ever out. But I have met people who have

(09:26):
already in the 1980s, they've been coders and they've taken
they desktop, desktop computers and shipped it to from US to
Mexico, for example, and then did their coding from there and
then send a huge case of floppy disks to their employers back in
US. Like, that's the early form of,
okay, it wasn't super nomadic because you couldn't move as

(09:49):
fast as you can now. You couldn't set up trust
anywhere in a cafe. But that was definitely the
early forms of it. So we talked about 1980s and the
media has only just, you know, gotten hold of this and become
like, like as if it's the newestthing ever.
I think what is happening thoughis of course we have a lot more

(10:09):
people trying out the lifestyle at least or becoming digital
nomads because it is becoming more accessible or let's say was
becoming more accessible to people during Corona times when
we most people got to work remotely.
And now of course, there's a huge call back to the office
from bigger employers again. But I don't think it's the end

(10:32):
of the lifestyle in any way. No, but I want to go back
because digital nomad ISM isn't new or is new maybe.
But, and you know, I didn't knowabout the I mean, I can imagine
I was doing kind of a digital nomad lifestyle in the early
2000s when people just thought you were nuts.
But being a nomad isn't new. Like living a nomadic lifestyle

(10:55):
may be the most the oldest lifestyle.
Of course, like we it was due tohaving to do that because
animals would graze because climate were different in the
winter to summer and people haveto move in search of food a lot
of time. But also I do believe and and it
is true that it is a more innatehuman condition.

(11:17):
I think a lot of people now think that the normal is the
sedentary life where you have that one place.
But that is just it's more of a construction of things like if
you do want to buy a house, which is a dream of so many
nowadays and have a mortgage, whatever and be in that one
place, it's going to have to be in one place, right?
Because that's how immobile things work.

(11:40):
But it's not to say that people don't have it in them.
The urge that perhaps what is that famous saying about trees?
You know, like people don't haveroots because they are meant to
be moving rather than they're not trees.
They can move from place to place.
Personally, I think it's a much more fulfilling rich lifestyle

(12:02):
to experience different places and at different places in
different seasons and different people and whatnot.
I think the modern society has made it more difficult.
And then when we get to like my actual research interests is in
policy and that has made it verydifficult in today's world still
to live a fully mobile lifestyle.
We are set on a in a world with nation States and borders and

(12:26):
very protective borders at that.So countries are not to them the
ideal. Ideal situation will be that
people were more sedentary and perhaps took a tourism trip
every now and then, but certainly not that they move
across borders and want to live in different places for a
certain amount of time and then move on again.

(12:47):
Yeah. And I want to get into your
research because what is the I want to, I want to go 2
directions, but the first one we'll take right now is so, so
that is preferred. It's almost like a claiming you
have to be claimed or allegianceto a country that's, that's
ideal for the way the world is set up, at least most of the

(13:10):
time. But is that according to your
research, is that changing or isthat being resisted?
Or tell me, I guess about your research and where it goes on
this subject. Well, this is again interesting
because migration of people is like if you read the media, you
think that's a new thing or likeit's at an all time high that

(13:31):
people are migrating and moving between countries, let alone
digital nomads. But I'm talking about just
people who actually more traditional migrant groups who
go and work in another country. This is also not true.
We've had migrations forever, and in fact we've probably had
so much more migrations before we came up with the idea that
nation states protect their borders and have the right to

(13:51):
claim who comes to the territoryand for how long.
These are in no way new things. I think the current situation
is, when it comes to what I study, is that a lot of
countries haven't accepted the fact that work no longer equates
a certain geographical vision. Work has or the ability to work

(14:13):
has left geography in a way traditional migration, all the
rules and regulations and permits on that were based on
the fact that you come and work in that country.
So you get a local job, you get a local work permit, you get
invited by your employer or perhaps you follow a family
member who is going to work in that country.

(14:34):
It was very economically it's. Tied to money, yeah.
So it's tied to. Money and also protective labour
markets. But if you think that labor
markets are no longer tied to that country, even within any
country you would have people who work for foreign clients,
who work with people the other side of the world.

(14:54):
Yet most countries are not welcoming people who bring their
work that they might be working with people from around the
world with to the country. They don't see that as as as
welcome in person in a way because it doesn't fit the mode
of the local labour market and the protection of debts and
stuff. So we're in a situation where

(15:16):
the reality is that work and location are no longer tied
together. Yet the government policies
don't reflect that. Yet that's.
Right. It's making it very difficult.
So it's like, it's almost like if you take digital nomadism,
which to me, maybe I should mention that the, the, if we
talk about digital nomadism versus other types of mobility

(15:38):
that also involves remote working digital nomadism, The
nomading part to me is importantis that you move from A to B to
C to D and you keep going in a way in a planned or unplanned
manner. Whereas there are a lot of other
ways that people combine work and travel nowadays.
And by far the biggest 1 is probably vocation is people who

(16:00):
they live a pretty sedentary life normally, but then they go
from their normal lives. They want to escape in northern
winter, for example, and go and work from a Thai island for two
months and then they go back to their normal lives those people
need. So that's.
Not a digital nomad. So let's define.
Yeah. So let's define a couple of
things. So digital nomad, yeah, define

(16:21):
what is the digital nomad? Well, if I can, if I actually
start by saying that, I would say that there's three main
types. And at the shorter end of stays,
let's say a couple of months, are these vocationists who come
from the normal sedentary lives and go and live in a go and stay
in another country and work fromthere for a couple of months.

(16:43):
This is a form of tourism in a way.
We're not talking about migration certainly yet it's
also not nomadism because let's say the next one up will be
nomads who who continuously move.
So the whole idea is that you are living your life in that
movement, in that mobility. You're not stepping out of your
normal life into something else and then going back.

(17:04):
And then at the right, at the other end, when we talked about
migration already, is people whohappen to have remote jobs and
they want to take them and move to another country.
And this has now become a possibility, especially because
of these digital nomad visas. Before that, it was quite
tricky. You could get a startup visa or
some form of freelance visas in certain countries to go and

(17:26):
still hold on to your remote work.
Perhaps not as a remote work employee, but let's say you have
your own company that was registered in US or another
European country or whatnot. You could still maybe find a way
to live in another country. But the visas, that's what they,
many of them are actually for, is to allow you to come and

(17:48):
claim residency and become a resident of country for a longer
time on the basis of having a remote job that supports you.
So I would say those. And that's not a digital nomad,
though, yeah, according. To you, that's not a nomad
because you're not nomading. So I think in most
simplistically way to put it, isthat a digital nomad.
The digital part is that they can do their work online.

(18:09):
The nomad parties that they are continuously on the move and
they don't permanently live anywhere.
That doesn't say that they don'thave residences somewhere
because again, this is how the world is set up.
It's almost impossible to not have a permanent residence in a
country. So you normally have to have
everything set up in a country. You can have it set up across

(18:30):
different countries. Some people have this this flag
theorists for example, who set up their lives so that you could
have your tax residence in one place, your actual legal
residence in one, your passport from one or two other places.
You can, you can go to extremes in this, but I would say most
digital nomads are registered still in the normally they

(18:53):
passport citizenship country because that's the easiest way
to do it and but they don't actually live there.
So they will be living their life in the mobility, in the
moment itself. Yeah, and that's a good balance
between being, you know, being in the construct and then having
them the freedom to move around the way you want to.

(19:13):
So, but tell me, tell me why countries?
Well, first of all, I want to ask, like, do you find that
digital nomads? So this is the fear of
everybody, right? Like it's like consuming a
country. And it's it's causing all sorts
of debates, which I think are really interesting about place
and the importance of people in it and how they used a place.
And So what are you seeing in your research and in your own

(19:35):
lived experience with how peopleconsume cities?
Because everyone's consuming where they live, right?
They're consuming, they're contributing.
They're But how did digital nomads use a place they're at
temporarily differently? Yeah, this is a super, super
interesting question. I think this also relates to
current mass tourism and what kind of visitors to any country

(20:01):
are valuable and can also contribute.
I think when it comes to these visas, for example, what I try
to advocate with countries is that you have to think
beforehand what kind of visitor do you need?
Because a lot of them have been,you know, people say they
they're not very good visas because they.
Only like you a short stay and they treat digital norms as

(20:22):
another type of tourist. Now if you are a nation or
country that doesn't have mass tourism and actually wants to
attract shorter stay people, let's say Kazakhstan has brought
out digital nomad visa for them.It's probably very good tool to
try and attract more people to come even for short time, even
for a month or two. Whereas Portugal that has a

(20:42):
hugely successful digital nomad visa but also suffers greatly
from mass tourism. They should probably think twice
if this is the type of people they want to attract on top of
the tourism. Now, if they said we are trying
to replace tourists with digitalnomads, I think that would be a
great idea, but no country is actually doing that.
Yeah, and why, why do why do countries not want digital

(21:09):
nomads? I mean, or because tourism is
obviously a massive business, but there's a lot of push back
against tourists in the world right now because they are not
respectful or maybe they're the mass tourism is ruining
historical sites. But it's kind of cause and
effect, it seems like. And also with digital nomads,

(21:29):
like you're encouraging people to treat your place as like
Disneyland or something, like it's a consumed thing.
And so why would a country, whatcan countries do to to maybe
change that Because it is them, they are in a way encouraging
this if they're not allowing contribution.

(21:52):
I think we're in a situation where again, the similar issues,
the clash back to to digital nomads is largely to do with
transnational gentrification issues and gentrification, of
course, this is a, there's a global crisis of rising prices
and this is happening everywhere.
What makes it transnational in this case is people with a much

(22:15):
higher disposable income from their foreign jobs coming into a
country and being able to affordto pay four times the rent and a
local could pay this in the end and in the beginning one should
say maybe is a issue of policy. Again, policymakers have not
tackled this strongly enough andnow we're seeing especially in

(22:35):
Spain, the government is cracking down on tourism rental
businesses, for example, quite abit and empty houses and things
like that, that foreigners are keeping houses empty most of the
year, for example. They're they're doing this
finally. But it's like you should have
done this 10 years ago. Clearly it's all about money.
It's about the the promise of the very fast tourism dollar and

(23:00):
what that can bring you. But unfortunately what we see
that most of the time tourism dollar doesn't trickle down to
the real people of that place. It goes to multinational big
hotel companies, for example. It goes to already wealthy
people who can afford to have the, you know, empire of tourism
accommodations, for example. So I think this is in the end,

(23:22):
it's always going to be a issue of issue of of policymakers not
being brave enough to actually support the people who selected
them to be their guardians. I think something like
affordable housing for people should be a basic right by now.
Whereas in Lisbon, in Barcelona,in also in Amsterdam, this is

(23:45):
becoming an issue. It's although Dutch government
is a lot more proactive about itand has been for a longer time
by especially in the more Mediterranean countries.
They have not been because they've been lured in by the
fast tourism dollar without thinking about the consequences
of what if everyone. What if every single last
grandmother that appears in a Lisbon postcard has to actually

(24:07):
move out? Is Lisbon still the same place?
Will the tourists still come? Like will it crash and burn?
I think there's a restructuring of tourism general in a lot of
places, which unfortunately might result in tourism only
being afforded to those who really have a lot of disposable
income in the future, because itwill become so exclusive that

(24:28):
then other people don't necessarily get to travel
anymore. And that will be a big shame, I
think, for global humanity in general.
Because I obviously believe thattravel enriches your life and
brings people across the globe together in a way that you can't
get that understanding of different ways of life unless
you have lived it alongside people for a little while.

(24:49):
Yeah. So I want to get to your
research. So let's let's dive into that a
little bit. You research global mobility and
people who are are nomadic. Tell me where that has, where it
started, and where you are now. It started from so as I said,
this came to me, whereas researchers normally go like,

(25:11):
oh, that's fascinating digital nomadies and let me research
that. I was already living this life.
And then this job basically fellinto my lap.
I happened to see somewhere and it wouldn't leave me alone.
I had already kind of abandoned academia at that point, but I
was like, no, I need to apply for this job because this is I'm
super interested in this from a perspective of research as well

(25:34):
as well as living the life and also the future of how we're
going to sort this out. How we're going to create a
world where something that's already happening is not in the
grey zone, but rather is celebrated and actually
harnessed as a powerful good. So I saw this post doc job and
this is as far as I know, to be honest.
And I know a lot of researchers actually run a research group of

(25:57):
researchers of digital nomadism on LinkedIn, and we have about
200 other researchers there. It's a very fast growing field.
But as far as I know, my job wasthe only job that anyone has
ever seen where the universe itself has thought this is an
interesting new subject that should be studied.
Whereas unfortunately for most researchers in this field is

(26:18):
still a problem to try and get funding, especially if you
mentioned digital nomadism is a sort of as a fluke, as a blip in
the university is going to disappear by a lot of funding
agencies. They might be interested in
future work as a phenomenon, butlike digital nomadism is not of
interest to a lot of funders. They don't see it yet, which is

(26:41):
interesting because I think a lot of us inside of this think
it's like everyone's living this.
But we do have to remember that this is a very marginal way of
life still, right, compared to the majority of.
But for myself, this research and the time time doing it has
been reaffirming of my own life choices, of course, too.

(27:03):
But it's also like brought to the forefront a lot of the
difficulties of living this lifebecause of course, as we said
earlier, like digital norms havebeen run for forever and they
have been moving around the globe for the past, let's say 20
years quite successfully. But when it comes to the
integrity of all the paperwork and all the legalities of how

(27:25):
you actually should be doing it,it gets much more complex.
And I started a lot of my research was about the policies
themselves and the policies thatthe governments make and why
they do this and what what makesthem sick and why did they think
that they needed a digital normal visa, for example?
One of the major outcomes from that research was this typology

(27:48):
that I've created that shows that although a lot of the visas
are to do with more with tourismand seeing digital norms as
tourists there are, the further we're going with the visas, the
more they are of these ones thatare more like migration visas
and residency permits. In Europe, we have the
Portuguese and the Spanish one, for example.
So it shows that governments areslowly maturing to the idea that

(28:10):
these could be longer term people that they could actually
attract to live in their countries and they could be
viewed the same as other skilledmigrants.
And just because they work or their clients are elsewhere in
the world doesn't make any difference.
So that I think is a encouragingpart of it.
One of the other parts that I love discovering in in in this

(28:33):
is that majority of digital nomad visas are actually open to
all nationalities. So they are based on merit
rather than your passport. And of course, passport
privilege is a huge issue in this world, especially for
global talent and youth who could benefit from travel, but I
cannot because their passport isweak.
Digital normative visas are offering kind of a way out of

(28:57):
that for a lot of people, provided that they managed to
get a remote work, remote job somewhere that actually pays
enough for them to apply for thevisa.
So that's been very interesting,but I moved on from the early
times when I published already on these known visas and stuff.
And now I'm working a bit more on the digital nomad, actual

(29:17):
reception of the visas, because a lot of the visas have really
not been used much. There's some of them that have
just quietly disappeared from the world in general and others
that have only had a couple of 100 applications, for example,
within a matter of years. Like that is not a successful
policy. Why do you?
Think. That is the ones that have not
been used. They have been.

(29:39):
A lot of these visas are surprisingly poorly designed.
They seem to be like ad hoc quick solutions to something or
government's even just trying out to see if anyone would apply
for this. They modeled after migration
visas in a lot of ways that the application process is similar

(30:00):
that you need to get your criminal background checks, you
need to go to an embassy in yourhome country to apply for it
physically and then wait there. Like, things like this don't
work for digital nomads who are on the move and they passport
country might not be a country they've visited in years.
And the idea that they could just go back to, let's say you

(30:21):
have to go to fly to US to go toa U.S. embassy and then wait up
to six months to get this visa might not be a possibility for a
lot of people who've already live that part of their life and
are living somewhere else and don't even have the financial
means to live in US city for sixmonths and rent a short term
accommodation to wait for this visa, things like that.

(30:42):
And it's just like there's a lotof application processes and a
lot of demands, yet they don't offer much.
Many of them, the shorter ones only offer you a chance to stay
in that country for that time and then get out again.
And they don't actually give youanything.
So there are mismatch of migration policies that are

(31:02):
disguised as tourist term is basically.
So this is not very well made. Yeah.
What are what are your recommendations?
Like if you could design the perfect digital nomad visa or
let's say, I mean, I think there's a lot of grey zones.
So what you've described. And then there's like, if you
don't pass the language exam, ifyou don't, you know, all the way

(31:23):
down from immigrant to like fromfrom a tourist visa all the way
down to an immigration visa. There's Gray areas all the way
there that seem outdated in today's world.
And the paradigm is kind of likeyou said, like because of the
web, especially, there's this overarching network that doesn't

(31:46):
really have respect for nation states.
And so nation states are having to battle that or they don't
have to. But so if you could rewrite some
part of this based on the current say we we can't get rid
of country like borders, what isthe advice or what how would you
structure? It well, I would say, yeah,
there's this question of legitimacy, right?

(32:08):
Like these people don't think a country has a right to tell them
when they when they can come to the country and for how long.
Well, that's of course a privilege that not everyone
shares, but a lot of people withstrong passports and a lot of
disposable incomes certainly do because they can go to the
country as a tourist and stay three months, even up to six

(32:30):
months or whatnot. So why not to work remotely as
well? I actually, I actually think and
advocate for countries to have several different policies, only
one of them being digital, notedVisa.
But I think the problem is currently that they have this
one type of policy, which is a blimp in the the universe where

(32:52):
there might be 1 type of remote worker who benefits from it.
But they don't harness the whole.
We talk about a funnel a lot of the time in this field, a lot of
funnel effect of like people whocome in as tourists or
vocationers and then stay as theenormous for a little bit
longer. And then perhaps they want to
move to that country and become taxpayers and contribute to the
economy and bring innovation andstartup culture and all these

(33:15):
human capital effects that remote workers from elsewhere
could bring. There should be at this funnel.
So there should be different types of permits.
There should be a easy walk in tourist permit that also allows
you to work because currently the majority of countries still
ban remote working on a tourist visa.
Of course this is abused everywhere around the world.

(33:36):
Most of us work on tourist visaseverywhere in the world because
it's not punishable as a crime either.
But technically it's not allowed.
So I'm like why not just add that one line into your tourist
visa and say you can also do remote work while you're in the
country on this visa. This has happened with actually
New Zealand, UK being the latestones earlier this year that

(34:00):
brought this out. And I think this is such a
simple, simple solution to something.
And you're also signaling that you are open to people coming in
as and with their work and staying for the three months or
whatever the tourist visa allowsthem.
I also think residency permits should work the same way that
when you have most countries have residency permits where you

(34:21):
tick one of the boxes being the reason that you are applying for
residency. And as I said, the majority of
them are tied to you getting a local job.
So you apply it based on you're going to come and work there or
based on family reunifications. These are the 2 most common ways
of getting residency somewhere. Why not have a third box that
says I am applying based on, I have my own own work, own job on

(34:46):
firm own employment that pays meenough to live in your country.
But the digital nomad visa, which is something in between is
the most elusive. 1 And I actually, there's, there's a,
there's a project called Plumia,which is a moon shot mission of,
of safety during a big global insurance agency, for example.

(35:07):
I think like they are planning athing which is called the
global, I think it's called Nomad border pass where it's
actually more of a paid solution.
And I think that might actually in the end be the be the way to
go about it. Because if you want to have a
visa or visas for people who want to keep moving continuously
between different countries, butnot really plan it beforehand,

(35:28):
not apply for the visa six months beforehand, having as a
paid solution might actually be the way to go.
Because one of the issues we're having with this mid term kind
of stays like let's say a nomad wants to stay up to six months,
so it's longer than a tourist. We accept that tourists don't
pay taxes because they own in the country for a short time and
then they go back. Migrants should pay taxes,

(35:49):
right? So then we have this inbetweener
who doesn't really live anywherelong enough to be technically a
tax resident, although, althoughthey probably are of their own,
you know, citizenship country, why not have it as a paid
solution? So you could you go in under a
certain permit that will be shared among several countries

(36:10):
and you go in and then on your way out of the country.
You say, I've been here now 3 1/2 months.
How much do I owe you? And you pay a fee that is
basically in lieu of taxes that you have been a contributing
member to the society in that way too.
You don't need to necessarily get anything out of it.
Most people of course, who travel continuously would be
very silly not to have a extensive coverage for their

(36:32):
health care, for example. So I think most people should.
There's market LED solutions to all of these things that people
use already anyway. So I think that's still missing,
but it should be probably a visathat is shared on a regional
basis. There could be a European white
digital visa, for example, that allows you to stay.
The current Schengen rule is 90 days.

(36:55):
It could be a six month visa that allows you to stay within
the Schengen zone for that long on the basis that you have the
disposable income to be able to support yourself while you're
here. And you don't actually, you
know, move because a lot of the visas, the digital visas now
require that you get a permanentapartment.
So you get a contract for an apartment for the whole time and

(37:18):
you live all in one place, whichis, again completely, I guess,
the idea of nomadism. If as a country you want to have
people come into your country, you probably also want to
disperse them around the country, and maybe they can go
and explore remote regions that don't get much tourism, for
example. But you're completely forfeiting
this purpose if you make people get a permanent department,

(37:43):
permanent residence while they're on the visa.
So things like that should be let go.
People countries should really think about the nomadic parts of
it if they, if they want to dabble in this.
I think there's a question also,do you want to as a country or
would you rather just have the short term stayers and then open
up the possibility of having people migrate into your country

(38:04):
as well? Yeah.
And I think that that's a known quantity.
Like people get travellers, theyget people backpacking through
Europe, they understand tourists, they don't.
What do they not understand about the nomadic lifestyle that
would help them? Because not a lot of like you
said, it's a very small population of people who are
living this life permanently. And So what would you, what

(38:27):
understanding would you bring both advantages to the country
that they could bring and also challenges.
So what would you say I? Think the challenge is exactly
this like to do with so the reason why a nation state system
is so strongly trying to defend their borders is that the
majority of our lives are now designed so that the the your

(38:49):
state supports you, especially in the European context, this is
true that you get your healthcare, you get your Social
Security. We look after each other and
that's based on the fact that wemust pay taxes so that this
system can survive, right. So I think that's one of the the
things that countries also when it comes to highly skilled

(39:10):
migration, but also these havinglonger visas and residence
permits for remote workers, countries are very shy of taxing
them because they seem to think that you have to test this
competition for global talent. Of course, there's a competition
for skilled migrants. A lot of countries are bringing
up beneficial taxation schemes, Netherlands being one.

(39:33):
I was lucky to be on that for the last two years and I
thoroughly enjoyed having more of my money go to my pocket
rather than to the government. But there should be a limit to
that. You shouldn't think that you, in
order to attract these people, you cannot text them at all.
If your country, the way the country functions, is based on
tax money going to the common good and running the country,

(39:56):
then you should text the people as well.
I think that's one one thing they're too shy on that, I
think. On the more positive side, even
though I keep saying they're normal as they keep moving, they
also location independent peopleif they so choose.
They can just stay if given the chance, right?
If given the chance to build a future in that country, it's not

(40:19):
a given that everyone's going toIn fact, what majority of people
are absolutely not going to do this for the rest of their
lives? Many people are probably in
search of their next home at least for a couple of years and
stuff. So to approach them only as
transient people who are only good for that tourism dollar is
is a is a big miss as well. These are it's.

(40:41):
A bit. It's a missed opportunity.
Yes, they're highly skilled, very connected international
people, a lot of innovation, a lot of contacts to also bring to
the local population and local youth that could be missing out
because there's a lot of countries now that could benefit
also this from this, from the way that let's say you all your

(41:01):
youth is living the country because they don't see a future
there or they don't see any exciting opportunities.
If you have a sizable remote working community from abroad
who a lot of whom do work in a startup scene or do work
independently as freelancers andare open to all sorts of ideas
and have the connections if those come into that location

(41:23):
and can engage with the local youth and local talent as well.
The Sky's the limit really. You can still build like all
sorts of new Silicon Valleys basically around the world with
this idea. So it just needs the right type
of policy to allow for that kindof stuff to happen.
Because one of the big problems as well with the current visas,

(41:44):
the digital number of visas, is that they block any access to
local labour market. There's very few exceptions to
this, the Spanish one being the most notable, where you can
actually have a certain percentage of your income come
also from Spanish clients. You can also employ Spanish
people, whereas most of them completely ban you from
employing anyone local, which makes no sense to me because if

(42:07):
the same person was in another country, they could remote
employ a local person, so why can't you do it while you're in
the country? So I think that all
protectionism of local labor markets is really slowing,
slowing the progress down as well.
Yeah, it's a bit misguided and maybe a bit outdated and I love

(42:28):
this what you're saying. And when we talk about digital
nomads and people who move, we also have to talk about
compliance. And so in your research, you
told me something really interesting in the pre interview
about the majority of people want to be in compliance, they
just can't. Yeah, what?
So with taxes, with visas, like like you said, you're already
out of compliance if you bring your laptop and you sit at a

(42:50):
cafe and make money. Yeah, as a tourist.
Thing already as a tourist, if you check your emails, you're
already 9 compliance. Yes, and this was the what I
said about the the tourist business for example.
There's such a simple solution to this.
I know this is not on top of agendas for countries who
struggle with a lot of issues toadd that one line.

(43:10):
But like, these are easy solutions to allow something
that's already happening to get it out of the legal Gray zone
because there's so much Gray zone.
It's a situation where digital, like living your life as a
digital nomad is not illegal, but it's almost near impossible
to do 100% legally. And this is something I've found

(43:31):
from, let's say my auto ethnographic approach to my
research of having travelled thewhole time too and being a
remote worker while doing my research.
The amount of paperwork because I had promised to my university
that I would do because I was employed as a local person in
Netherlands and I was also tax resident there during my

(43:52):
research. And I promise you them we're
going to do everything completely by the book.
And I didn't know there was going to be this tricky.
But like the amount of paperworkthat you have to do even as a
European within European Union going to work somewhere.
It's a lot of paperwork and a lot of regulation that not every
country knows about. So then you are explaining

(44:12):
something to someone who should know body and doesn't even has
never heard of it. Certainly I've been asking
people I meet on the road how how much they know about this.
And there's, there's a, you know, a big part of them,
including employers who do not realize all the work that
actually should go into, into making sure that everything is

(44:36):
done by the book. And I think actually this is a
big part of why there is this movement of, you know, being
called back to the office because during Corona times,
because a lot of people are like, oh, but I wasn't a full
employer because it this a lot of these problems are especially
for people who have employment contracts, who are full time
employees, because employers in many countries have a lot of

(45:00):
Labor laws that tie them to making sure that the employees
have certain, certain standards of work and, and, and rights
and, and things like that. And a lot of people I meet that
are like, yeah, during COVID times, it was no problem.
My employee let me go anywhere Iwanted to, to do whatever.
I think they have smartened up since then.

(45:21):
There were several years in between where they slowly
started to figure out, the HR team slowly started to figure
out like, hold on, if our employees there, we're meant to
pay, for example, for their health care, but they're not in
this country, are we still meantto pay for this?
And the answer might be yes. But then if you pay for your
health care, your employees health care in Thailand, then

(45:42):
you are making a permanent establishment there.
And like all these risks for the, for the, for the employers.
And that's why they're being so shy for letting you go anywhere
for more than a short vacation. Maybe because they actually now
figured out there's a lot of legalities to this where they
could be liable of having to paytaxes off one of the employees

(46:04):
working in their country. Yeah, every country has their
own paradigm with healthcare, with workers rights, with.
Yeah, it's a good example is I think a couple of companies got
really U.S. companies in the Netherlands got really a lot in
trouble because they would go bankrupt or they would have
hiring, they would just, you know, layoff people and they

(46:25):
that's not allowed in the Netherlands.
So it was just exactly. So Dutch employees, Dutch
employees who were working here,we're like, sorry, you can't
fire me. That's not how it works.
I'm on a permanent contract and a permanent contract doesn't
exist in the US. Like that's not a thing.
Like it's just not, it doesn't even exist.
And so who, who has precedence, right?

(46:47):
And so it gets into these different paradigms that
different countries. Certainly applies, yes, it
certainly applies to the Social Security, for example, which is
very strong in Europe, but not so much elsewhere.
And a lot of these new visas require that if you're an
employee, you have to prove thatyour employer is paying for your

(47:08):
Social Security fees because your employer is like, I don't
pay for them even now, so why would I stop paying them then?
And this stops a lot of people from being able to get these
visas as well. They they, yeah, this is a new
type of internationalization that we really haven't figured
out yet. Yeah, it's a deepening level of
internationalization because when we had people who were, you

(47:29):
know, expats for a few years or,you know, they were moving with
their job, it was easy to kind of build a container.
This is where we see the 30% ruling here in the Netherlands
or, you know, different green cards in the US and I'm sure
there's different ones that I'm unaware of, but that that
handled it right. Put a Band-Aid on it.
But if you want to move around. Or stay permanently or yeah.

(47:50):
Yeah, or stay permanently and that's a Gray zone that I see
and I'm actually in is like I don't know how long I'll stay.
It's permanent non permanence, right?
Yeah. And so I don't I don't have a
path. I pay taxes here.
I have to get. I have to renounce 1
citizenship. So it's all kids.
Have been here their whole life.They would want you to decide
beforehand or you're going to live your life and where you're

(48:14):
going to live and where you're going to move to next.
And then it might become easier because you were always one step
ahead. But this is a situation where
you as the person doing the mobility is one step behind.
Basically, it might be that you already burned a bridge that you
didn't even realize that you've burnt, and you cannot have the
future that you actually envision it's.
Very, very true. And not only that, like they,

(48:35):
they claim your business. So like, you have to start your,
if you're in the country, you have to have your company in the
country you're living in where you don't even have rights like
to live. Like I could be deported but my
company has to stay here. Oh, yes, OK, Yeah, that's.
Insane like that. As you learn these things as
you're doing them, actually, you're learning them as you go.

(48:55):
And so like you said, you're burning bridges, you're making
mistakes, you're doing your bestto be in compliance, but it's
like it is nearly impossible to.And then what I've found is you
start living in the Gray zone. And so everything becomes a
question, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but
constantly living with this, especially I have, I have kids.
So I'm like, are we going to be deported?

(49:16):
Exactly. Don't you think it adds a level
of unconscious, unconscious stress to your lifestyle when
you actually not doing anything wrong, but then you end up kind
of being in the wrong. And this is something that I see
with nomads too, when I asked them about it.
The people who are aware of all the regulations and stuff and
how they should be doing things,but they are not doing because
one of the justifications is that if a country was concerned

(49:39):
about me working here on a tourist visa, for example, then
they would regulate it somehow. And it's true, no country does.
Hardly any country does. Let's say currently with
Thailand, for example, they cameout with a new, it's called
Destination Thailand visa, whichis the closest we have at the
moment, I would say, to a real digital nomad visa.

(49:59):
Since they came up with that. There's a lot of reports from
the borders where people are being stopped.
Even their laptops I've been looked at.
Are you going to work in this country?
This could easily happen in US now to like that if they took
this as one of their pain pointsas well because they are
checking people's tech. But yeah, especially in
Thailand, you're getting a lot of questions now of like, are
you here? Will you work while you're here?

(50:20):
And at that point, when you feellike you're not doing anything
wrong, but you have to straight out light to your border
official and say, no, Sir, I'm just here to see your beautiful
land. It, it becomes a thing where
it's like, why do I have to? Why do I have to?
I'm not doing anything wrong in a way, but I am.
And therefore I get stressed andI get I, I feel guilty about

(50:42):
this, but the solution is just not there yet.
I don't know if they will be andwhen they will be either.
I'm not super hopeful of these things like this being sorted
out anytime soon because it would need such a huge hold of
these systems. And I think that's why I say

(51:02):
that if, if somehow this was moved more to the regional
level, the regions amongst themselves sorted it out first,
then we might have some hope. But if you had to have, I agree,
multilateral agreements with every single country around the
world about a new distribution of taxation money, for example,
you know, we're going to be waiting here 100 years at least,

(51:22):
so. Yeah, well, and that's the
advice I give people often is, yeah, like don't, don't assume
you're as free as you're like. You can fly anywhere and you can
work on the Internet. That's your freedom.
Like it's depending on your passport, of course, but that's

(51:45):
not actually true in the way youlive your life.
And and in some ways I think it's actually better to be
naive, like if you know all the.Rules.
Ignorance is. It will really limit yeah.
Or be extremely well versed and plan out.
Like I often tell people like goto someone who's really, there's
not a lot of these people, but I'm like strategic, be

(52:06):
strategic. Go to someone about your money
because money is what really is the controlling factor, which I
find very sad. But it's like, go to someone who
can help you. Be strategic.
I want to live here when I have kids.
I want to live here when I did it.
I want to live here and really plan it out or be ignorant.
Be be willing to wing it and accept the uncomfortableness of

(52:29):
living in a bit of a grey zone you know it's currently like.
Which has a lot of stress. Yeah, it has a lot of stress.
Yeah, it's not, it's not the solution forever.
But then as soon as you start setting up those, those
solutions forever, you're restricting your mobility again
or your freedom to make other choices.
And, and that's where I personally struggle because I, I

(52:53):
truly, I would love to be say, be able to say that I'm 100%
location independent, but this is not true.
Because even regulations of likenow I am, after having moved my
tax residency from Netherlands back to Finland again, I'm still
tied by the rules of like I meant to then stay in Finland
for certain amount of days out of the year, which I do not

(53:18):
granted. And in the end I know that if I
told them I am not there, it will be ruled so that my I will
still pay my taxes to Finland. Because everyone in the end has
a default country that will be the country where you will be
taxed liable. This doesn't apply for US
because you are one of the two countries where tax taxation

(53:40):
there works differently. But it's based on citizenship
whereas everywhere else is basedon something else.
And I cannot be not a tax resident anywhere.
That's not an option even if I never stepped foot in Finland
again. But I'm never anywhere else
where I would be gum taxed and either I would it would default

(54:01):
back to Finland in my case for example.
Yeah. So that's true, right?
You can't be stateless, no. No.
And this is true for majority ofEuropeans at least.
You can't just denounce. I can denounce like let's say
not last two years I was taxed resident in the Netherlands and
then I had to tell the Finnish government, now I'm going to be
a tax resident here. And I had to prove that.

(54:23):
And then I can be a tax resent somewhere else.
But I can't just say I'm leavingthe country.
I will no longer pay taxes. And they say fine, but where are
you paying your taxes then? And that's that's the point when
they really push the control. And this is true of majority of
of European countries. For sure you will.
And that's why the solution is always easiest to just have your

(54:44):
the home countries that in my case, I'm of course in one of
the countries with the highest taxation anywhere.
So it's not beneficial to me. But honestly the, the the
easiness of it is much more important for me.
It adds to my location independence when I don't have
to think about it all the time. Yeah, and that's what I I really

(55:07):
think that this is an advantage.Having stressed out people
living in your country is not a good idea even for a few days.
And so I wish the countries would see that even with
migration or immigrants or expats or digital nomads or even
tourists, it's not a good idea energetically, economically to

(55:27):
have stressed out people who don't know the rules.
That's not a good thing. And I, I find this among people
who have lived in the Netherlands for, you know, 5678
years is they're stressed out and they're, they're, they're
transmitting that into their kids that are transmitting that
into the classrooms into the job.
And so I really find these Gray areas and getting used to living

(55:49):
in a Gray area and just pushing your way through.
It's a cool skill. It makes you feel like a CIA
agent all the time. But it is also, I don't think
places should want people who are doing this.
I think that it it's not beneficial to.
Place no. And then you add to it in places
like Netherlands to the very difficult housing situation
where you a lot of the time in aGray zone in that too, because

(56:11):
you you just lost your place andyou don't have a new address yet
that you have to be registered and someone's up to you.
And I personally found it very stressful for the past two years
trying to balance life when I was physically not there most of
the time and was reporting to the government saying where I
was and the questions they wouldask me afterwards.
I was interrogated about this all the time as if I was really

(56:33):
doing something wrong. And in fact, at the same time, I
was welcomed into the country asa skilled migrant.
And it was, it was not at odds. It didn't, actually.
It's a weird. It's weird at.
All, Yeah. Yeah, but also I think
population is on the decline most places.
And so I find it very interesting.

(56:53):
I will find it very interesting to watch and I am interested to
see how your research goes on actually, like you're saying,
people being a resource that they're trying to get and not
just highly skilled, it's everyone.
Everyone needs to keep society going and this is an age-old
problem. I mean, this is an age-old
problem in wars and everywhere. Human capital is, is always

(57:15):
valuable and for different jobs.But with the Internet and the
rise of digital work and AI even, I really think that this
issue and modernizing it and making it so people can stay in
compliance and also move freely,more freely, because that's

(57:36):
where work happens and values being created.
I really think your work is going to become much, much more
important than even it is now. I Yeah.
Is there anything else you want to leave us with?
I'm mindful of time, but is there advice you would give
someone who's who's wanting to maybe live fully nomadic life?
Is there advice you would give them?

(57:59):
Personally, I always found this easy to start living this
lifestyle. It has felt like a true me.
As you said, it's maybe in some of us it is and some it's not.
I would say don't get stuck on this idea of becoming a digital
nomad just because it's trendy and it's all over Instagram and
stuff. Find your own way of, if you
have the possibility to do remote work, to find your own

(58:21):
way to introduce at least some location independence into your
life. I think for the majority of the
world's population, the securitythey get from a permanent home,
permanent house, groups of friends, hobbies, whatever is
far, far too important to let goof because to live a fully
nomadic life is is no joke. This is there's a there's a lot

(58:44):
of sacrifices you also make. I happily make them, but I don't
actually think this suits the majority of the world's
population. So find your own way of
combining some location independence for part of the
year, for example, to your life,rather than try and absolutely
renounce everything, sell all your possessions and so set off
because you think that's going to make you free.

(59:05):
You will soon find out that freedom is not just because you
have a smaller backpack and nothing else.
That's not freedom if you have alot of other, let's say
paperwork, tax man, whatever in your in your head like nagging
you about it. So find your own own path on
journey within this world of opportunities that I do.

(59:28):
That's really good advice. So I always say run, run towards
something, not a ways from something.
And what advice would you what'syour final advice for countries
who are trying to, I would say modernize.
I hate the word modernize but like meet the population of
people who are are highly skilled or working in general.

(59:50):
How do countries? What is your top advice for
those countries that are are grappling with?
This links very nicely to what you said about being welcome in
a country and that would make a much better, you know, energy in
the place in the 1st place. It's about you should think that
if you're welcomed in the country, but also that you're
offering people the possibility of a future there because no one

(01:00:11):
is going to start giving their best to you or providing, you
know, they they. Human capital for you if they
don't see any possibility of a future in that country, even if
they decide not to take in the long term, even if they don't
stay forever, having that possibility is very important
and to design the policies so that they are in a continuum of

(01:00:34):
where you can step to the next ladder and you'd become more and
more integrated into the countryif you so choose to do.
I think that's very important because otherwise if you're
already from get go blocking anypossibilities or future and you
say where you can stay six months and then you have to get
out and you can absolutely not apply for another permit.
In the meanwhile, you are completely cutting out any

(01:00:56):
chance of that person wanting tocontribute anything more to your
country than you know the quick buck of the of their disposable
income. So that.
Yeah, so they're creating peoplewho are using like consuming and
throwing. Away exactly.
Yeah, that was a very good yeah point you made about the your
consuming, but then you could also be contributing.

(01:01:18):
And yeah, if you want to have both, ideally you have to
provide for both for the possibility of both.
Of them, yeah, I I call it generative relationships, right?
Like you want to make a generative relationship with
these people instead of a consumer based relationship
with. These, yes, very good.
I'm going to steal that. I'll try that out.

(01:01:38):
Don't feel it just Yeah, we're all this is a you don't have to
feel it. I'm giving it to you.
Yeah. Good.
But it's. Yeah, I see it too, and I feel
it and I'm living it in a different way than you are.
But I do feel that, yeah. That hopelessness that comes
when a place doesn't seem to want to let you contribute in
the way that you'd like to. And also provide a path that

(01:02:02):
makes sense that you can't just say no, that's kind of abusive.
I can't do. That at least marginal people
who then give up on contributinganywhere really.
If you don't, yeah, if you don'tdo a lot.
Yeah, yeah. Cool.
I love your work. I love what you're all about.
I'm so glad I got to talk to youtoday about this.
And yeah, it's more than digitalnomadism.

(01:02:24):
I think you're speaking to a larger human impulse.
And also this this moment we're in that we can't go back from.
I don't think the internet's notgoing to shut off anytime soon.
AI is getting more people are wanting to go to a place that
fits their their values for different seasons.
And so I think we're only going to see more of this.
And I hope in a more humane way for both place and people.

(01:02:47):
So I, I really admire the work you're doing and I want to keep
up. And I maybe we'll have you on
again in the future to, to update us on what's going on.
Yeah, no, thank you for having me at very important
conversations. A lot of these things that we
should be talking about more because the world is open
already and it is already happening.
And it's like, just because we try and ignore it and think

(01:03:10):
think that we can somehow put the Jeannie back in the box is
not the way to go forward. Yeah, thank you so much and
thank you everyone for joining us today on the House of
Peregrine podcast. If you'd like to find out about
Kaisu's work and everything she's up to, we will put her
information in the show notes. And please feel free to join us

(01:03:31):
at houseofperegrine.com where you can find guides and all
sorts of stuff about living and a location, independent life or
living internationally. Thanks so much Kaisu, and we'll
see you again soon. OK, that's it for today.
I hope you've enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on
living internationally, join us at houseofperegrine.com to find
out how you can connect with ourcommunity.

(01:03:53):
Let's craft a life story with intention, together.

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New Visa Policies: The Future of Global Work with Dr. Kaisu Koskela | Ep 71

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;} New Visa Policies: The Future of Global Work with Dr. Kaisu Koskela | Ep 71