September 10, 2025 • 55 mins
Listener discretion is advised for this episode.
Jessica Stahl is here for a candid tour through her cartoons under her moniker Vanilla Cool Dance where she addresses shame, pleasure and becoming with humor and sophistication and a whole lot of humor and sass. After a breakup in New York, Jessica bought a one-way ticket to Amsterdam—with no plan beyond a brave question: What do I actually want? A year of communal living and a daily drawing practice unraveled old stories and sparked a movement: playful, disarming cartoons that make taboo topics feel less so.
They trace the arc from anger to invitation—why “calling people in” builds real change—and revisit Jessica’s iconic King’s Day street art: a cheeky royal tableau that turned the orgasm gap into a citywide conversation. We dig into how kink and tantra sharpen communication, consent, and boundaries (yes, “Are you still where you want to be?” can change everything). And we talk creative courage as an expat—making public art with sensitivity, humor, and a steady moral compass.
In the Episode:
- One-way ticket intuition: choosing Amsterdam and choosing herself
- Daily drawings to alchemize shame into power
- The King’s Day campaign that made pleasure public—and positive
- From calling out to calling in: anger, then bold accountability
- Consent as sexy specificity; ongoing check-ins as care
- Jessica shares her rule about creating from a “scab,” not a bleeding wound—
If you loved this conversation, share it with a friend and leave a review—we read every word.
Connect:
House of Peregrine: www.houseofperegrine.com
Guest: Jessica Stahl, Vanilla Cool Dance — IG: @vanillacooldance
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Michael Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes that we are
all about perfectly those that craft their life story with
intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I've
(00:23):
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews, I hope
to connect those living internationally more deeply to
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances and meaning making to global
(00:46):
parenting and relationships to make your time abroad more
intentional, edifying, and full of beauty.
Find us at houseofperegrine.com where you can find more ways to
connect with the ethos of Peregrine.
I hope you enjoy today's guest. Let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome backto the House of Peregrine
(01:06):
podcast. I'm Michael Weber, and I'm so
happy you're joining us today. I first met today's guest
through a cartoon that was hanging just outside my house in
the streets of Amsterdam, one that made me smile every time I
passed it. It featured a king and a queen
in a rather cheeky moment on a throne, with the caption that
read A true king knows who comesFirst.
(01:30):
It was by Today's guest, JessicaStahl, the creator of Vanilla
Cool Dance, a viral cartoon series and global movement
that's changing the way we talk about sex, relationship and
self-expression. Jessica's work is bold, funny,
and surprisingly tender. And her story?
(01:50):
It's just as layered. She began her career in New York
City's advertising world, but when something didn't feel quite
right after a breakup, she bought a one way ticket to
Amsterdam. And with no job and no
apartment, she had a backpack and a very serious question.
What do I actually want? What followed was a year of
(02:13):
communal living and a commitmentto drawing something every day
that was on her mind or her heart, something that was coming
up for her. It ended up unraveling years of
old shame and led to the creation of Vanilla Cool Dance.
What May has started as a way toreclaim her own story has since
became a place, has since becomea place where 10s of thousands
(02:35):
of people come to feel a little more seen, a little less alone
and a lot less ashamed. The message?
There's no part of our humanity,whether it's sex, power,
consent, that's too taboo to talk about.
In fact, that's often where the most important conversations
come to life. Jessica was recently named Sex
(02:59):
and Relationships Creator of theYear and recognized by Ken's
Lyon as a global creative leader.
Even more than the accolades she's acquired, what stands out
about her is how she uses humor and cartoons to disarm, connect,
and remind us that growth doesn't have to be serious to be
profound. In short, Jessica has a rare
(03:22):
ability to call people in instead of calling them out, and
that leads to some massive breakthroughs and awareness.
I'm so excited to share this conversation with you and I hope
you enjoy it. Thank you so much for joining me
today, Jessica. I am so excited to have you on.
Thank you so much for having me and what the nicest intro I've
(03:43):
ever received, so thank you for that.
Great. That's what I love to hear.
I love to hear that. So I want to start out by you
taking us quickly to that momentwhen you bought the plane
ticket, one way ticket to Amsterdam.
What? Why Amsterdam?
Just walk us through that moment.
(04:04):
So I had always dreamed of living abroad and back at the
time I had a boyfriend before the breakup, the one who broke
up with me, who wasn't as interested in as I was.
So already at that point, I had gone on the solo backpacking
adventure throughout Europe. And I think that's what planted
(04:24):
the seed of, Wow, there's so many different ways to live that
aren't the way we were living inthe US and maybe ways that I had
identified more with. So when he broke up with me,
that was really in my mind of ifhe hadn't fit in the picture or
the reason to go back to the States in the 1st place, where
(04:44):
would I have gone to next? And I knew that Amsterdam was
international. I knew that it was a creative
city with a lot of different agencies.
So I thought, let's go there. That's amazing.
So you knew a little bit about it and decided and you really
leaped. You leapt like you.
No job, no anything. You just, you knew you wanted to
(05:07):
maybe have a relationship with the city for a while.
Yes, and I had never been here. I didn't look up the weather so
when I arrived and it was raining in the middle of
November I was completely caughtoff guard.
But I think for me too I have aneasier time taking giant leaps
then then knowing all the details.
(05:30):
Yeah. Do you think you're the kind of
person that if you knew that youmight, it might have stopped
you? Absolutely.
People asked why not the UK, like oh why are you not moving
to London and I said the weather.
Turns out I moved somewhere where it rains even more so.
I can identify with that. I think a lot of people can when
you know, do you describe it as like intuition or just
(05:52):
adventure? I always ask people this
question because house, house a peregrine.
Peregrine means one from abroad or an outsider.
And usually this comes with thisability to fly or to when
something doesn't feel right because peregrines, they live on
every continent of the world andso they can live anywhere.
They just go where seems right for a season or a time.
(06:12):
And so I feel like people like you, like us, have that.
So is is. Can you explain any other way
besides it was just time to go? Yeah, I think that sums it up
very well. I think it was just got like, I
struggle a lot with making smalllife decisions, but the big ones
are always very intuitive and always I have the idea and then
(06:36):
I have to execute it and there'sno way that I'm going to not
try. Yeah, it's amazing.
I love that and I love, I love connecting with people who are
like that because it's really hard to explain.
Do you? Does your family understand this
about you? Yes, I think that they knew it
(06:57):
before I did, actually. So when I had told my mom that I
booked, that I was going to booka ticket, she wasn't surprised.
I think she may be surprised that I stayed, but the idea of
moving to Europe, I think she always knew that this would
could happen. Pardon me.
So I've been very lucky in that to be supportive.
(07:18):
Yeah, nice. So they're kind of like, oh,
Jessica, she's just like that. Yeah, maybe I don't give them
the choice. I just am who I am and I'm lucky
they love me anyways. Yeah, no, it's everyone has
different experiences that way, but I think it's lovely that
they know that about you and before you knew yourself.
(07:41):
That's beautiful thing. Yeah, so then I want to tell you
my reflection. So when I found out that you
weren't Dutch, I had a kind of avisceral reaction, like how
brave she just put their king and queen and you've done
several cartoon scents, but whenI the first one I saw was near
King's day. And maybe you can walk us
through your first one. But my impression was when I
(08:03):
found out you weren't Dutch, Oh my God, she is so brave to, to
give this level of commentary oruse this device and a place that
she doesn't she's not from. So I, I, that's a compliment to
you. It's a very brave thing.
Thank you yes, I mean, I love tobe on the line of brave to
stupid ratio to walk that fine balance, but I yes to make that
(08:29):
kind of commentary, political commentary, societal commentary.
It was definitely a risk becauseI'm not Dutch, but because of my
interesting onboarding to the Netherlands.
So having lived in that seventeen person university
house with my Dutch roommates, Ihave felt very integrated into
(08:51):
the Dutch culture, into knowing people that I can pulse check
things. So I had a pretty good
indication of the level of how people talk about the king.
Of course this was this cartoon was to transcend the actual king
and to be more about metaphorical kings in general
(09:11):
but and also how the Dutch humoris.
But it was definitely, definitely a risk and I wasn't
sure how society would react, soI was scared.
Yeah, well, and tell me, tell mehow I would love to hear how
this evolved. Like, tell us a story.
There's a whole story before it made it to the streets of
(09:32):
Amsterdam on Kings Day, right. So maybe tell me that story.
As we know, these stories don't unfold literally until we look
back. And so tell me, let's rewind to
how from that moment of you putting your first mural on the
wall in Amsterdam, where did it start for you?
Great. Well similar to booking a one
way ticket to Amsterdam and to having an idea that just lights
(09:56):
me up and I have to execute is kind of how this got started.
So I had already been learning about the orgasm gap which is
the which is about 30% and so. Tell us about it.
Tell us about what you learned. Sure.
So the orgasm gap is the difference in how often a woman
(10:17):
versus man reliably orgasms witha partner.
And it's quite a big difference.And of course, there's so many
factors that go into this. There's one that we grew up in a
world where female pleasure wasn't centered, where we grew
up watching porn that was focused on male pleasure, that
was focused on penetration, whenin fact most women can't achieve
(10:40):
an orgasm through penetration alone.
So it's we were not set up for success.
Not only that, but women don't realize their pleasure is valid.
They don't know how to communicate that to a partner.
Men grew up watching the same porn we did, so they also think
that we're getting off. So there's just all this
miscommunication. But the majority of women or the
(11:03):
majority of people with the vulva need clitoral stimulation
to get off. So I had already been wanting to
do something with this. And Feraldine Kemper had also
come out with the documentary series Justin de Lafkins.
So it was also quite in the news.
And I was walking with a friend and I remember this distinct
(11:24):
memory. It was in the middle of
Amsterdam and we were talking about Kings Day and he or I had
said it's crazy like that on Kings Day.
So many people probably are going home having sex and yet
the Queens are getting screwed. And so that was kind of the
original insight. So I thought, OK, how could I
(11:46):
take a day that's all about the king and make it about our
Queens, and how can I help make sure that everyone in the
Kingdom is coming this King's Day?
And so that was kind of how I set out to do it.
And I think I had about four weeks to put everything into
action. So I started drawing right away.
(12:10):
I had put out like, gosh, somebody connected me to a woman
who helped me with the street art, and we went out and did it
all ourselves. And I was wearing this like,
bright pink raincoat because I didn't even think much about it.
She's like, you could have come in a little bit more stealth
(12:32):
cover, but yeah, it was such an amazing experience.
Like to be able to create this from scratch and to really kind
of develop my own style. So for instance, we could have
done just normal posters, but I really wanted to take over the
entire city and also make it feel like art.
So we ended up doing these giantlife-size cutouts, and I would
(12:52):
like to really make them big andmake the statement in your face.
And the message and the artwork of what it was for the people
listening is that it's an illustration of a king going
down on a queen sitting on a throne.
They look debatably like the King and the Queen of the
Netherlands with the. It's clear who it is.
(13:15):
With the message, a true king knows who comes first and the
king is wearing a sash that saysclose the orgasm gap.
And yeah, it's a very provocative artwork, but using
this playful cartoon to make it more approachable.
And we took over the city with these life-size cutouts as well
as thousands of stickers and in in all the bars and all the
(13:37):
restaurants and on all the street holes.
So the city was completely decked out in this message.
Yeah, it was beautiful. I thought it was really fun and,
and what was your, what was yourreaction?
Because I mean, it wasn't like you were being anonymous.
It's not like you were hiding itright?
No, I had like scan for a good time with my handle.
(13:58):
Some people can find me, yeah. Yeah.
And what was the what were the messages you were receiving
about this? So mostly positive I had.
The first message I received wasI had put one up in Amsterdam S,
which was probably where they need it the most, but also where
I got a message that was like, how dare you put this porn up in
(14:21):
front of children. I'm calling the police on you.
And they found my number and like called me, called my phone.
So that was a bit intimidating. And I you know, you have, you
have to, when you put your art into the world, it takes a life
on its own. And you have to.
(14:42):
You put your art into the world and your phone number with the
QR like you did not. I didn't put my phone number out
but I guess it was on my website.
Yeah. Publicly there was no hiding.
There was no hiding. And I, I remember because I was
still working at Doppler, so I had like gone to work that
morning and just sat there quiet, not sure what was going
to happen. And then I got this message and
(15:03):
then I thought, fuck, like, but but I did say that, you know, I
did say to him that, you know, this was for me actually a
learning opportunity. And nothing is shown in this
visual that's like, you know, you don't really see anything.
So one, a child probably isn't going to understand it.
(15:26):
And two, so many mothers and fathers have messaged me about
how this cartoon has opened up aconversation that they can have
with their children. So I so actually, and that is
the majority of messages, it's like I've had mom sending me
like their their kids sticking the poster and saying I'm
raising, I'm raising a true kinglike that have opened the
(15:50):
conversation to sex education with their children because of
it. So that is incredible.
I got very lucky because Jordan Kemper loved the idea.
So she was the first person to post a post having seen it on
the street. And so it really picked it up,
like the community and Amsterdampicked it up right away and
everyone was looking out for it.So the messages were incredible,
(16:11):
women saying that they have never received so much pleasure
in one night. The guys got the message, they
understood the assignment. They got the message.
Yeah, yeah. Nobody wants to.
We'll go home after that and nottry to be a king.
Yeah, it was a public service. Yes.
(16:34):
Yeah. Well, with so many messages that
are, I mean, this, this gentleman calling you is not.
He's not acting alone. This is a very common notion
that children should be protected.
But what we know is that children aren't protected from
negative messages about what normalize the normalization of
what sex should look like is. I mean, as much as we try,
(16:58):
YouTube is a public space or allthese places where children go
are not protected. So it's like, I see it as an
inoculation, Like the kids are getting all these messages we
don't want them to have whether we want to or not.
This is actually a really positive and playful message.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think exactly what you're saying that and this kind of
(17:19):
goes into effect and how I view the how now they're doing age
verification. I think in the United States,
they're trying to implement thisfor porn.
And it's such a double edged sword.
Kids are going to access porn anyways.
So we may as well actually be putting out porn or content or
educational materials that are showing authentic pleasure,
(17:43):
showing real body showing like sex education and and sex is not
performative, but that's real because they are going to get
around this. They are going to find it.
And also this is an amazing opportunity to educate them.
And that was what was so amazingto me was all these parents that
were coming to me saying, Oh my gosh, like I, my kid had these
(18:07):
questions and I was able to showthem your art like or like this
helped me approach it in a fun way with them because it can be,
I find talking about it awkward with them.
So that's. It's a cartoon.
It's a. Cartoon.
Yeah, it's a cartoon. And and that I think is part of
the brilliance of, of how how you approach this is it's a
cartoon. They look very innocent.
(18:30):
They look very like genuine and so and genuine in the way like
they're, you know, this guy is like basically inviting everyone
to be a king, right? That's it's cool.
Yeah, it's calling in. It's like a positive message
instead of calling people out. So it's also a positive message
(18:51):
for men. Yeah.
And so I want, I have three questions.
So I, I have to decide which wayto go.
But what I, what I want to know is what your journey was to
this, because it sounds like you're bringing your, the people
in your community and your followers along on your own
journey. And so maybe it didn't start
with the breakup that brought you to Amsterdam, But tell me
(19:12):
where your own journey started with with, you know, the orgasm
gap is a is it just one beginning of realizing, I mean,
is is the phrase that I could use for you, that you realize
we've been lied to. Yeah, I felt gypped.
I felt like scammed by life, that I didn't realize that
female pleasure was valid. And I think my journey with my
(19:34):
cartoons is and it's been with sexuality, it's been with
relationships. I think it started with, for
instance, learning about attachment theory and learning
why you can say what you want ina relationship like that is
allowed. I didn't know that.
I thought I was supposed to justbe quiet.
I thought that the anxious avoidance, the push pull
(19:59):
relationships, the highs and lows were the only way.
In fact, those were the aspirational way.
So I think it started just with relationships in general and
realizing, wait, there's other ways that I can act, that I can
be like to be closer to my authentic self.
And then that also happened whenit came to pleasure.
I remember having a partner of mine.
(20:19):
He. Went down on me, I had an orgasm
and he kept going down on me andI was like, I already came and
he goes, yeah, I know, let's go for Round 2.
And I was like, wow, I never knew that somebody could like
care that much about my pleasureor even get pleasure from
providing me pleasure because that was also for for him as
(20:40):
well and my own journey with that and.
I want to ask right in there, doyou feel part of this is
cultural? Because I think at least I'm
also American and so I the messages we received may be
different because we grew up in different part of the countries
and we're probably different generations, but I think it is a
(21:00):
bit cultural. Did this do you think part of
this transformation was a bit cultural?
Part of my transformation? You mean moving here?
Yeah, so like dating in a different culture because from
all accounts, Dutch people are more direct.
They would say that I think. And so did.
Is that part of this for you or did it have?
(21:20):
Yeah, I think, I think a lot of the shame around sexuality is
1000% cultural. I received messages from people
that grew up not knowing that orlike that women should not have
desire that they grew up religious.
They grew up religious, not talking about sexuality in
(21:42):
general, that they're still having to unlearn all of this
because they have such they viewed sex as good or bad or for
children or for not. So I think a lot of this is
cultural. I think in my own experience,
the guy for instance, that this was with, he was actually
American. So so.
(22:02):
That's good one one point. For the states.
Yeah, Good. No, no, that's good.
Yeah and yeah. But I guess I'm projecting a bit
here. But like I in the states when I
was growing up, I was always toodirect and I moved here and
people were like, we cannot understand what you want.
And so I always have this like story of I'm not direct enough
for the states. I'm too direct for the states,
(22:23):
I'm not direct enough for here. And so that I'm saying the same
thing. I'm the same me, but in two
different places. I'm too much and not enough.
That makes sense. And so I imagine in dating or
insects, those, those things, those themes might come up
culturally or whatever. So I just wondered what part of
that was. And also I think Amsterdam is a
city that can handle this cartoon as well.
(22:44):
Definitely, definitely. And I think indeed I was coming
here, I was dating all these different people and I was being
exposed to different cultures and how and how they view
pleasure. And I, I mean, I definitely can
see different lines of how this has translated throughout
different cultures. But I would say the biggest
thing was my evolution and myself.
(23:06):
And I think being less dependenton which partner I happen to get
and how they view my pleasure and more self reliant and
realizing OK, no, my pleasure isvalid.
And I think in the beginning of this I had felt lied to and my
initial reaction was anger. So I've gone through a big
(23:27):
evolution in that and I think many can relate.
You feel like you've been gypped.
And so I had 0 tolerance for anyone who didn't show that they
valued my pleasure and I would call them out.
And in more recent years, I've learned to call them in because
you have no idea what their story is.
And I've had amazing conversations with somebody who
(23:50):
with different people, one who never went down on me.
And I had said to him, like, younever go down on me.
And he said, oh, because all of his exes would push him away or
they would feel insecure. And I'm like, oh, no, I want
that. And then he, and then he went
down on me all the time and he liked it too.
And so I started to give people the space to meet me and explore
(24:11):
things with more curiosity because we all have so much
shame. But every one of us, and we
bring that all, all that baggageinto the bedroom.
Yeah, of course that is. It's so true.
And I think that one person's journey usually is reflective of
the collective. So I think that just because
(24:31):
you're you're, you are speaking about it, you're furthering the
conversation. I think there's been a
collective like awareness aroundthis and we don't ever think
that men or women are sitting over there going, oh good,
that's all part of my evil plan.But calling out is then the
process of being able to call in, in my experience.
(24:52):
So going through the calling outprocess is maybe as hard as it
is to look back, or maybe it's not it, it ends up in a good,
good place. Cool.
So I want to circle back to how the cartoon started, because it
didn't start with this one cartoon on the street.
You already had the characters for vanilla Cool Dance.
(25:13):
So tell me a little bit about that, about that evolution of
the evolution of the arts and the characters.
Not the characters of the King, Queen, but your style.
Yeah, So I had been living in this student flat and I was
unemployed. I was heartbroken.
I was incredibly embarrassed about my life situation.
And I realized that instead of being sad about it, maybe I
(25:37):
could do something with this to create more, a more empowered
version. So I made the decision that
every day for one year I was going to draw about my cringy,
embarrassing stories that made me feel insecure, but spin them
in a more empowered, fun way. And I did.
And, and every day for a year, I, I drew about my life.
(25:58):
And that's from day one. It was Vanilla Code Dance.
And I used the name Vanilla CodeDance because it was my first
AOL Instant Messenger screen name from the 90s.
And I used to be so embarrassed about it back then that when I
decided to make an account all about turning my shame and my
embarrassment into empowerment and reclaiming this narrative, I
(26:20):
brought back the screen name. So that's how that started,
yeah. You were bringing everything.
You were ashamed. All the stuff you hated was
coming out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love that. And if you scroll back, it was
very self deprecating. Very self deprecating humor.
But that's what I needed at the time too.
Yeah, it reminds me a little bitof Carolyn Elliott.
(26:42):
Is her name her existential kink?
I don't know if you're familiar with her work.
I'll. Have to.
She's a she's a mentor of mine, but she's a great one.
You'll maybe you'll enjoy it, but it reminds me of what we
bring our shadows out and play with them.
And now you've created somethingreally, really special.
(27:03):
And so that so you were, were you drawing before?
Is that something that you have always done?
No, I was, I mean, I was a art director and in interested in
graphic design. So I've always been a creative,
but I never thought I could drawand I and I still wouldn't say
that I could draw anything otherthan the current style that I
(27:25):
have. And I think what inspired me was
I took some Skillshare classes and there was one by Mari Andrew
and it was more on what is the story that you want to tell and
less on how does it look? And, and I also love, for
instance, hyperbole. And 1/2 is another great
example, like and, and sticks, who is a street artist and has
(27:48):
sculptures that are stick figures, but I find them
incredibly emotional. And so once I could get past
that, then I was, I started drawing just and my style kind
of evolved into something very unique to me along the way.
Yeah, amazing. And so between this first, I
(28:11):
mean this, the king and Queen thing was at least three years
ago, the first one. Yeah, I think four years ago,
now 4. Years ago, yeah, OK.
It was kind of like when we wereall on for furling from COVID.
I feel like that was the moment,like we were all kind of like
crawling out. We were able to see each other.
And then this, this was a momentfor me at least, where this
appeared on the street. And it just made me laugh
(28:33):
because it was something that was also.
I was like, did somebody read mymind or?
Yeah, I think that was also partof it.
It was the first King's Day indeed, when we could all be
back out in the streets. And I was like, we need to make
sure we're doing this in the right way.
Yeah, and it felt like a moment where we could rewrite stories,
(28:53):
right. We'd all had some time inside in
Amsterdam, maybe not as much as other places.
I don't know what your COVID waslike, but mine was much more
connected than a lot of other people where we were being
careful, but we were having coffee, walks and these things.
But it felt like there was street art again or a sign of
sign of things being different. So that was nice.
(29:14):
But since then, how would you say your message has evolved or
has it or I think you've really broadened your scope of it or
maybe you have not. So tell me.
Yeah. Well, I love that.
I mean, I've definitely, I've done other street art since.
So I've done work in the US after Roe V Wade was overturned.
(29:35):
A few. Yeah.
I can't believe now I'm saying this, I guess for or 4th of
July's ago. So with provocative artwork to
raise funds for Planned Parenthood.
I have done pride campaigns in Amsterdam.
And I would say that the scope of my work has evolved.
I mean, I've niched quite a bit,but then it of course it gets
(29:57):
wider. So I have become more interested
in exploring my own sexuality and different relationship
dynamics and dabbling in different worlds like the King
community and the Tantra community to understand what we
can learn from those in terms ofpleasure, in terms of
communication. And so those are some new, new
areas that I've been exploring more in my work.
(30:19):
Yeah. And I think that, that again, I
think that it's such a brilliantway to explore them with a
cartoon because these words, andI don't know if you're familiar,
like I did a, a Ted talk last year about finances and, and
marriage and partnership and unpaid labor.
And my initial idea was I wantedto compare it to like kink, like
(30:44):
the way we, the way our economy works.
We had to. Walk that back, because when
people hear these words, they can't.
They can't hit the palate like they can't hit our brains
without it being dangerous. There's all these words that we
can't. These words are not neutral, no.
And so the way that you're able to use them and with your
(31:07):
cartoons makes it so people can actually, it gets to that free,
at least my experience of them is.
It's a really brilliant way to get through to talk about
something really important like communication, like power, like
everything that that's everyone kind of wants to talk about or
wants to, but we can't because the words have too much power.
(31:27):
And so again, I wanted to do like, we're all in a big kink
with finances. Like we, we, we're in a power
game that we love. That's why it's still here.
Like we rely on, it gets us off.It makes us feel powerful.
It makes us feel unpowerful, butthat.
Was I would have loved to come to your talk.
We did not do it. We ended up doing it.
We ended up really walking it back because I didn't want the
(31:50):
words to be lost. I didn't want the message to be
lost. So what I love about your work
is you're using I love a lot of things about it, but what I
think is that it's a brilliant move to use your cartoon, your
medium to explore these things and and be so open with your
would you refer to as audience followers?
Like what is your word you? Use Yeah, my community and yeah.
(32:14):
Your community? Yeah.
Thank you. Yeah, I, I cartoons just make it
approachable and they disarm people and.
And I think we need that when itcomes to talking about this
stuff. Unfortunately, I believe that.
It is what it is, but do you find that you're braver or
(32:34):
because you're incredibly brave to, to we feel like we know
what's going on with you a little bit, right?
We don't, we don't really, but we, you're giving us these
glimpses. And so do you think the cartoon
makes you be able to say more than you would otherwise if you
were just writing on sub stack or something?
Yeah, yeah. And I have written, I do write
on sub stack and I find it harder and I find it more
(32:56):
vulnerable and more scary because the cartoon does create
a small separation. Even when I say it's about me,
you know, for instance, my following is so kind and I
answer, I try to answer every single DM.
I start sharing a little bit more on my personal account as
(33:18):
well and, and I, and on my sub stack and I am aware of like the
ratio of men to women. Maybe there ends up being more
men on sub stacks that follow meand maybe it's because I put my
photos as opposed to only cartoons.
I'm not sure the reason. But I do notice that it makes me
feel a little bit more vulnerable, especially as a as a
(33:40):
woman working in this space. So there is a lot that the.
And yeah, I also find it important to show the human
behind it because, for instance,I think there was a cartoon
where it was about body hair andthen I showed like me, what is
it like trimming my whiskers? And I think there is something
(34:04):
grounding in the fact that, Oh yeah, this is a real person too.
And that does feel scarier and that does feel more more
vulnerable in a way. But I think finding this balance
of of there is a human behind this and yeah, adds a bit more
depth and realness to it. Yeah, but it's also very brave
because I remember early in my career ending a few projects
(34:27):
because I was physically afraid for my safety.
And so that you're showing otherwomen that it's OK to tell your
story. And I so I think that that's
cool. But what I want to know is what
you're learning about these things because you're finding it
very important to go on this journey, which I love, and
you're sharing it with us, whichI love.
But what would you say? And you're learning and you
(34:48):
don't have to say this is where you are in your process right
now. I'm talking to you on this day.
In 10 years, you might be somewhere different.
But at this moment, what are youlearning through Tantra, Tantra
and kink and BDSM and all these things?
What are you? What are your like?
Report to us from the inside fora second.
Sure. Gosh, so many things.
(35:08):
I think that when you go to these more niche spaces, there's
a level of awareness around communication, consent,
boundaries, feeling for yourselflike your own boundaries that
we, I guess in the mainstream don't discuss.
(35:32):
So when we talk about consent, people think, Oh my God, me too
movement and OK, yes, she said yes.
Versus to me, when I enter thesemore niche spaces, we really
unpack what does consent look like at what and how sexy it can
be, how you can have a conversation with somebody and
(35:54):
they say, OK, like my boundary is I want you to like lightly
stroke my thigh and then your hand can hover above my penis.
But I don't want like touch. And you're like, oh, I didn't
even think about something that like specific.
And then it gets you thinking like, where is my actual
(36:15):
boundary? Because we're so used to saying
yes, no and and black and. White.
Black and white when there's allthis grayness.
Another thing that I recently learned is these temple nights
in Tantra. They ask you sometimes mid flag
and you don't need to be playing, but mid experience.
Are you still where you want to be?
Because maybe you don't want to be in the same place that you
(36:38):
did one minute ago or where you want to be in one minute and
just constantly having these check insurance that what it
these spaces have taught me the most is how to communicate
boundaries, desire and also how to connect better with myself to
really feel in to me, even if I need to take a beat and come
(37:00):
back to it. What is it that I really want?
What, where is my my boundary and, and am I being honest with
the other person? Because when I overstep my own
boundaries, even though it's notthe other person's fault, that's
also not nice to them. Like that's also a disservice to
the other person because they think you're enjoying yourself
(37:21):
when you're really not. And so I've learned so much from
these spaces. This goes way beyond sex, right?
Oh yeah, this is. This is cultural, this is in
your everyday life. This changes your perception.
Like I said it, it changes my perception of the entire world
economy. Like completely this again,
(37:43):
these themes you get to explore because it's such an extreme.
It's not extreme. We find it extreme, but it's not
extreme. It's actually rather it's a,
it's a transpersonal experience that helps you learn about
yourself. And that that's why it makes me
sad that these words and these experiences are so taboo.
But why I love that you're pulling them through in your
(38:05):
cartoons. So because we can talk about
them. And So what else?
Like where what is the most maybe pull that through to being
an international person. So you're living abroad now?
Six years? No is longer.
Almost 10, yeah. Almost 10.
Yeah, sorry. We're about the same.
And I feel like what I can applythrough these themes,
(38:27):
communication culture, I find them say like I find having a
visa very Dom sub, you know whatI mean?
Like I find these pull these themes pull through for me in
international living. And so how have you explored
that at all? I'm just curious.
I haven't, but I I love that. And I mean, you think of all
(38:49):
these, I mean, I'm in an incredibly privileged position
to be here. I have AI was able to get a
Polish passport, but I know so many people that are trying to
stay in the Netherlands, for instance, or trying to move and
they're definitely in a Dom sub relationship with the
government. You know, being and and I
(39:11):
haven't thought about it though,so I'm definitely going to think
about it more after. But indeed into how these
similar to what you were saying about finance, how these themes
that people are so afraid of of talking about transcendent to
every relationship dynamic. We have career like every it's
(39:32):
all in our interpersonal dynamics.
Yeah, yeah. And so I think what your work
does is brings it out into the open and maybe we'll start using
different words, but I really think not be too dramatic about
it, but I think these types of things can really change the
world a bit. They can shift, they can shift
the world a little bit just because we can talk about it
(39:52):
through cartoon, right? But I what I know from your work
more broadly your your communityis that you are you really are
living this what you're giving to us and so.
Why do you think it's so important for you, for yourself,
and for maybe your mission in life right now?
Because I do, I think you find this is one of the things you're
(40:14):
supposed to do here, right? When you're you've opened
yourself up to a lot of different spaces.
So becoming sex educator, one ofthe sex educator of the year or
these things, what is it do you think that is emerging for you
when you go into these spaces? Are you finding more safety in
the world? Are you expressing different
(40:34):
parts of yourself? Are you exploring different
themes? Is there something?
Sorry I'm asking you such deep questions, but I think you can
do it. Great.
Yeah, I think I am finally becoming the woman I was meant
to be and the woman that wouldn't that would be if she
didn't grow up, you know, learning to feel shame due to
(40:58):
society, due to my lived experiences.
And I think that we are, you know, that we're all born into
this world, free from shame. But along the way, we dim our
light. We learn to make ourselves
smaller. We stop communicating.
And and this permeates everything.
This is this shows up in how we do our job.
(41:20):
This shows up in what we believewe should you know how far we
can go in life and it just makesme so sad that we nothing we
feel is in isolation and we all feel it and nobody's talking
about it. We are all you know, I have
(41:42):
thousands of people that share their stories with me and
thousands of others that share the same story with me.
So if it's so beautiful to realize that what you are going
through alone, you're not so special after all, you're not
going through it alone. We're all of us are going
through something. And if we just talked about it
(42:03):
more, we would be able to live so much more confidently because
it loses its power in conversations and it loses its
power and openness. And I think that's what my my
mission is. And, and I think through vanilla
cool dance, she started as a very aspirational character of,
(42:25):
of mine and a part of me. And I think the longer I live
with her and draw her and experiences as I get to start, I
get to embody what I share with the world and I become we, we
start to merge and we were not always like that.
And, and now my character and myself have really started to
(42:47):
find one another in the past five years, four years.
Wow, Very. You're a method actor.
Yeah. I'm method.
I'm method drawing. You're method drawing.
No, I love it. That's perfect.
Well, and I think all art is an expression of a part of our
self. And so it's it's cool to have
that be a person. Well, it's personified for you,
yes. And so when you're drawing,
(43:09):
you're pretty like it's pretty clear that you're you've had
either an experience like it or a series of experiences like it.
Has anyone you're dating ever approached you and been like,
hey, too close? Like, not sure what you're
drawing here. After.
I'm into this. Yeah.
(43:29):
Have they been like, hey, you can't draw that?
Or have they been like, that looks too much like me or has
there ever been an experience like that?
Not like that I luckily my 2 like last boyfriends have both
been amazing and and super supportive and always would
(43:50):
brainstorm with me. Even so they would come up with
ideas with me. I think it would look to be
different if they it was one forone.
But my male characters especially like besides skin
color and and hair color, they have the kind of the same face
so. It's.
More anonymous so I felt very supported by by them.
(44:12):
Recently I had a situation whereI I felt very uncomfortable and
dismissed one meeting somebody'sfamily and he made me feel very
uncomfortable whether or not he intended to with the work I do.
So that was an unfortunate experience, but I I think this
(44:33):
will always be a part of me. And obviously when I meet the
right person, how much should weshare of our personal life?
As is very open for discussion, but to be able to draw and
process through art, that's something that I definitely want
to keep. Yeah, no, that's amazing.
And and it's actually a really, I mean, maybe you feel this.
I felt this as being an artist, as a woman and being it kind of
(44:57):
more public about my life is it's not just my story as a
woman, it's never just your story.
So the heroine's journey in my opinion, isn't, is a community
story. So whenever, so whenever I'm
telling my story, it's also my husband of 22 years a story.
It's my kids story. And so I always maybe maybe I'm
(45:21):
too sensitive about it, but I'm always editing very creatively
what I tell I'm what I don't tell.
And so I think it's really, I would love if you would keep, I
would love to see vanilla cool dances take on motherhood on,
you know, like aging on, you know, I, I hope you keep her
(45:43):
with you as you go throughout your life.
And you're younger than I am. But this level of bravery, in my
opinion, is needed in women's stories.
And so I love that you're sharing it.
So if I can give you that reflection, that is, it's not
easy. And my partner and I did this
with the Ted Talk because it washis story too, because we've
(46:03):
been together so long. And that's a very tender
process, I would say, with women's stories.
And so I hope you keep doing it,even past whatever, wherever
life takes you, I hope you keep commenting and let it, letting
us in and softening and giving us these insights because
they're invaluable. Thank you.
(46:24):
Yeah. And I, and I really understand
that, that the editing and I think when you have other people
involved in your story. And I noticed that more when I
write my sub stack, because it'slonger form, you know, in a
single panel cartoon, there's not so much you're distilling A
singular moment. And in those it could, I've
(46:46):
really had no problem. And then when I start to expand
on them in longer form storytelling, I have been a more
cautious or sensitive or yeah inmy head about making sure I'm
respectful or making sure the other person has time to read it
first, that I'm not causing harmaccidentally by sharing my
(47:08):
story. Yeah.
But what I, I, what I've noticed, at least in what I
would like to give to you is make sure you're not leaving
parts out just to, I don't thinkit will do this, but there gets
to a point where you can't not hurt people.
Yeah, that is true. That is true.
I have a few stories that I'm I have in the bank, probably
because I'm I'm waiting to One of the greatest lessons I
(47:30):
learned is to write from a closea a healed, not a healed wound,
but a scabbed wound. Because when you are not an open
wound, because when you're sharing from an open wound,
you're so exposed to the world'sthoughts and, and if you haven't
(47:51):
processed it yourself, that can be very difficult.
So I'm that's been a big lesson to me to share from a, a scabbed
wound or skin. There must be a better way to
say this, a closed wound than a bleeding one.
Yeah, that's such good advice. Yeah.
And another story I heard is about a warrior who someone was
(48:14):
convinced they were going to kill them and they pull their
sword out and they don't don't kill them.
And then they come back the nexttime this person is convinced
they won't kill them because they didn't last time.
But then they pull out their sword and kill them.
And they said, what was the difference?
Why didn't you kill them the first time?
He said. The first time I was angry.
(48:34):
Oh, that's so. Yeah, that's amazing.
What a story. Yeah, so.
Now you can kill him with a clear head.
Yeah, but also not an anger, right?
Sometimes things need to be done.
And, and so this is what my lastquestion is for you.
We're wrapping up on time, but you mentioned something that
really resonated with me and it's part of a movement which
(48:56):
you said at the beginning you were very angry and now you're
able to call people in instead of calling people out.
Tell me about that process. It's a really important process
collectively, relationally, woman, women in general.
And I hate to universalize your story so much, but you are a
(49:16):
brilliant example of what's happening for a lot of women in
general. Tell me about that process.
Like what have you learned more broadly?
Yeah, and, and I mean, I think you see this with every aspect
of society and with new movements that come up and, and
how it creates polarization. And I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I
(49:42):
have very strong values and verystrong principles.
So it's not on me swaying withinthose values or principles, but
it's, you know, the pendulum swings in One Direction.
And I realized that my anger wasn't helping me connect with
(50:03):
what I really wanted. So ultimately, I would like a
partner. Ultimately, I I want to have
amazing sex. I don't want to just show up
with angry anger and assumption.And the person sitting in front
of me is not the world. It's not, they're not the
(50:25):
everything I had experienced up until that point.
And they had their own upbringing and their own lived
experiences. And I think it's really scary
what is happening in the world. It's really scary with the
rabbit holes of content that youcan get served on Instagram and
(50:45):
these echo chambers and the morethat we can bridge curiosity in
our interpersonal lives and realize like, OK, ultimately we
want to win, win here ultimately.
Like hopefully your partner wants to be a good partner.
Hopefully the person you're dating wants to show up for you
and approach things from a place, from compassion and
(51:09):
curiosity while still holding your boundaries and still
holding your standards. And I think we will get closer
to, you know, where we want to be and, and collectively start
to heal. Yeah.
What I want to ask in that process is, do you think there's
a way of doing this without thatalkalizing first, that anger?
No, but I think that you can. I think, I think anger is a
(51:35):
natural or disappointment is a natural reaction when you
realize that you could have had it differently and when you
realize that life could have been different.
I think how quickly you cycle through that anger or how you
handle that anger or how you react to that anger or channel
(51:55):
it is, is more in, in your control.
And I, I mean, I can still be angry for sure.
And, and I was part of it, you know, for years I would draw
cartoons that were very anti men, very calling men out and
they were funny and men followedme too, because they also
laughed at them because I made it in cartoon form.
(52:19):
And every once in a while I'll still do it too because, you
know, it's also OK. But but I realized I was part of
this, you know, if if a female follower that was following me
and soaking up all this content that they're going to leave
feeling I don't know better thanthe men that are out there,
which is not what I want to be. I don't want to feed that
(52:42):
anymore. Yeah, yeah.
So it's a life lesson to know how to how to channel anger and
how to recognize it. And so I think it's an important
lesson, honestly. And that's one that I think
you're also teaching us if and alchemizing.
So if if artists like you can alchemize in a group way, this
(53:04):
anger collectively we can move to AI don't want to say a more
productive because this kind of anger.
This is just my opinion from my own process.
Yeah, But learning how to use itwell is something that, at least
for myself, has been a lesson for me.
(53:25):
So I just wanted to hear. But your experience has benefit.
So it's really a pleasure to seefor me at least, other women
going through this process and getting to this place where they
take their place as creators and, and not taking, going
through all the stages of warrior, tearing it down,
(53:46):
building it back up and. I think anger isn't a bad
emotion and and if we're all just like passive and like
that's also not enough fire to create change either.
So we need. To I love what you said good.
(54:08):
Well, I have asked you so many hard questions.
Thank you for hanging with me and thank you for the work
you're doing. I I would love to see I want to
see your work on being an expat like and being an international
person. Just if my plug is to have an an
annoying expat cartoon at some point or annoying tourists.
(54:30):
No, but the themes you're exploring are super interesting.
I love the work you're doing in the world and I can't wait to
bring it to our listeners. And also, yeah, watch you keep
creating in the world. Thank you.
Well, it was such a joy talking to you and I.
I loved your your questions and this conversation.
But thank. You good.
Thanks for coming on and thank you so much for listening to
(54:53):
today's episode of the House of Peregrine podcast.
Please like and subscribe and please leave a comment.
I read every single one and we love hearing your input.
See you next time. OK, that's it for today.
I hope you've enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on
living internationally, join us at houseofperegrine.com to find
(55:13):
out how you can connect with ourcommunity.
Let's craft our life story with intention, together.
Hi, I'm Michael Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes that we are
all about perfectly those that craft their life story with
intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I've
(00:23):
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews, I hope
to connect those living internationally more deeply to
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances and meaning making to global
(00:46):
parenting and relationships to make your time abroad more
intentional, edifying, and full of beauty.
Find us at houseofperegrine.com where you can find more ways to
connect with the ethos of Peregrine.
I hope you enjoy today's guest. Let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome backto the House of Peregrine
(01:06):
podcast. I'm Michael Weber, and I'm so
happy you're joining us today. I first met today's guest
through a cartoon that was hanging just outside my house in
the streets of Amsterdam, one that made me smile every time I
passed it. It featured a king and a queen
in a rather cheeky moment on a throne, with the caption that
read A true king knows who comesFirst.
(01:30):
It was by Today's guest, JessicaStahl, the creator of Vanilla
Cool Dance, a viral cartoon series and global movement
that's changing the way we talk about sex, relationship and
self-expression. Jessica's work is bold, funny,
and surprisingly tender. And her story?
(01:50):
It's just as layered. She began her career in New York
City's advertising world, but when something didn't feel quite
right after a breakup, she bought a one way ticket to
Amsterdam. And with no job and no
apartment, she had a backpack and a very serious question.
What do I actually want? What followed was a year of
(02:13):
communal living and a commitmentto drawing something every day
that was on her mind or her heart, something that was coming
up for her. It ended up unraveling years of
old shame and led to the creation of Vanilla Cool Dance.
What May has started as a way toreclaim her own story has since
became a place, has since becomea place where 10s of thousands
(02:35):
of people come to feel a little more seen, a little less alone
and a lot less ashamed. The message?
There's no part of our humanity,whether it's sex, power,
consent, that's too taboo to talk about.
In fact, that's often where the most important conversations
come to life. Jessica was recently named Sex
(02:59):
and Relationships Creator of theYear and recognized by Ken's
Lyon as a global creative leader.
Even more than the accolades she's acquired, what stands out
about her is how she uses humor and cartoons to disarm, connect,
and remind us that growth doesn't have to be serious to be
profound. In short, Jessica has a rare
(03:22):
ability to call people in instead of calling them out, and
that leads to some massive breakthroughs and awareness.
I'm so excited to share this conversation with you and I hope
you enjoy it. Thank you so much for joining me
today, Jessica. I am so excited to have you on.
Thank you so much for having me and what the nicest intro I've
(03:43):
ever received, so thank you for that.
Great. That's what I love to hear.
I love to hear that. So I want to start out by you
taking us quickly to that momentwhen you bought the plane
ticket, one way ticket to Amsterdam.
What? Why Amsterdam?
Just walk us through that moment.
(04:04):
So I had always dreamed of living abroad and back at the
time I had a boyfriend before the breakup, the one who broke
up with me, who wasn't as interested in as I was.
So already at that point, I had gone on the solo backpacking
adventure throughout Europe. And I think that's what planted
(04:24):
the seed of, Wow, there's so many different ways to live that
aren't the way we were living inthe US and maybe ways that I had
identified more with. So when he broke up with me,
that was really in my mind of ifhe hadn't fit in the picture or
the reason to go back to the States in the 1st place, where
(04:44):
would I have gone to next? And I knew that Amsterdam was
international. I knew that it was a creative
city with a lot of different agencies.
So I thought, let's go there. That's amazing.
So you knew a little bit about it and decided and you really
leaped. You leapt like you.
No job, no anything. You just, you knew you wanted to
(05:07):
maybe have a relationship with the city for a while.
Yes, and I had never been here. I didn't look up the weather so
when I arrived and it was raining in the middle of
November I was completely caughtoff guard.
But I think for me too I have aneasier time taking giant leaps
then then knowing all the details.
(05:30):
Yeah. Do you think you're the kind of
person that if you knew that youmight, it might have stopped
you? Absolutely.
People asked why not the UK, like oh why are you not moving
to London and I said the weather.
Turns out I moved somewhere where it rains even more so.
I can identify with that. I think a lot of people can when
you know, do you describe it as like intuition or just
(05:52):
adventure? I always ask people this
question because house, house a peregrine.
Peregrine means one from abroad or an outsider.
And usually this comes with thisability to fly or to when
something doesn't feel right because peregrines, they live on
every continent of the world andso they can live anywhere.
They just go where seems right for a season or a time.
(06:12):
And so I feel like people like you, like us, have that.
So is is. Can you explain any other way
besides it was just time to go? Yeah, I think that sums it up
very well. I think it was just got like, I
struggle a lot with making smalllife decisions, but the big ones
are always very intuitive and always I have the idea and then
(06:36):
I have to execute it and there'sno way that I'm going to not
try. Yeah, it's amazing.
I love that and I love, I love connecting with people who are
like that because it's really hard to explain.
Do you? Does your family understand this
about you? Yes, I think that they knew it
(06:57):
before I did, actually. So when I had told my mom that I
booked, that I was going to booka ticket, she wasn't surprised.
I think she may be surprised that I stayed, but the idea of
moving to Europe, I think she always knew that this would
could happen. Pardon me.
So I've been very lucky in that to be supportive.
(07:18):
Yeah, nice. So they're kind of like, oh,
Jessica, she's just like that. Yeah, maybe I don't give them
the choice. I just am who I am and I'm lucky
they love me anyways. Yeah, no, it's everyone has
different experiences that way, but I think it's lovely that
they know that about you and before you knew yourself.
(07:41):
That's beautiful thing. Yeah, so then I want to tell you
my reflection. So when I found out that you
weren't Dutch, I had a kind of avisceral reaction, like how
brave she just put their king and queen and you've done
several cartoon scents, but whenI the first one I saw was near
King's day. And maybe you can walk us
through your first one. But my impression was when I
(08:03):
found out you weren't Dutch, Oh my God, she is so brave to, to
give this level of commentary oruse this device and a place that
she doesn't she's not from. So I, I, that's a compliment to
you. It's a very brave thing.
Thank you yes, I mean, I love tobe on the line of brave to
stupid ratio to walk that fine balance, but I yes to make that
(08:29):
kind of commentary, political commentary, societal commentary.
It was definitely a risk becauseI'm not Dutch, but because of my
interesting onboarding to the Netherlands.
So having lived in that seventeen person university
house with my Dutch roommates, Ihave felt very integrated into
(08:51):
the Dutch culture, into knowing people that I can pulse check
things. So I had a pretty good
indication of the level of how people talk about the king.
Of course this was this cartoon was to transcend the actual king
and to be more about metaphorical kings in general
(09:11):
but and also how the Dutch humoris.
But it was definitely, definitely a risk and I wasn't
sure how society would react, soI was scared.
Yeah, well, and tell me, tell mehow I would love to hear how
this evolved. Like, tell us a story.
There's a whole story before it made it to the streets of
(09:32):
Amsterdam on Kings Day, right. So maybe tell me that story.
As we know, these stories don't unfold literally until we look
back. And so tell me, let's rewind to
how from that moment of you putting your first mural on the
wall in Amsterdam, where did it start for you?
Great. Well similar to booking a one
way ticket to Amsterdam and to having an idea that just lights
(09:56):
me up and I have to execute is kind of how this got started.
So I had already been learning about the orgasm gap which is
the which is about 30% and so. Tell us about it.
Tell us about what you learned. Sure.
So the orgasm gap is the difference in how often a woman
(10:17):
versus man reliably orgasms witha partner.
And it's quite a big difference.And of course, there's so many
factors that go into this. There's one that we grew up in a
world where female pleasure wasn't centered, where we grew
up watching porn that was focused on male pleasure, that
was focused on penetration, whenin fact most women can't achieve
(10:40):
an orgasm through penetration alone.
So it's we were not set up for success.
Not only that, but women don't realize their pleasure is valid.
They don't know how to communicate that to a partner.
Men grew up watching the same porn we did, so they also think
that we're getting off. So there's just all this
miscommunication. But the majority of women or the
(11:03):
majority of people with the vulva need clitoral stimulation
to get off. So I had already been wanting to
do something with this. And Feraldine Kemper had also
come out with the documentary series Justin de Lafkins.
So it was also quite in the news.
And I was walking with a friend and I remember this distinct
(11:24):
memory. It was in the middle of
Amsterdam and we were talking about Kings Day and he or I had
said it's crazy like that on Kings Day.
So many people probably are going home having sex and yet
the Queens are getting screwed. And so that was kind of the
original insight. So I thought, OK, how could I
(11:46):
take a day that's all about the king and make it about our
Queens, and how can I help make sure that everyone in the
Kingdom is coming this King's Day?
And so that was kind of how I set out to do it.
And I think I had about four weeks to put everything into
action. So I started drawing right away.
(12:10):
I had put out like, gosh, somebody connected me to a woman
who helped me with the street art, and we went out and did it
all ourselves. And I was wearing this like,
bright pink raincoat because I didn't even think much about it.
She's like, you could have come in a little bit more stealth
(12:32):
cover, but yeah, it was such an amazing experience.
Like to be able to create this from scratch and to really kind
of develop my own style. So for instance, we could have
done just normal posters, but I really wanted to take over the
entire city and also make it feel like art.
So we ended up doing these giantlife-size cutouts, and I would
(12:52):
like to really make them big andmake the statement in your face.
And the message and the artwork of what it was for the people
listening is that it's an illustration of a king going
down on a queen sitting on a throne.
They look debatably like the King and the Queen of the
Netherlands with the. It's clear who it is.
(13:15):
With the message, a true king knows who comes first and the
king is wearing a sash that saysclose the orgasm gap.
And yeah, it's a very provocative artwork, but using
this playful cartoon to make it more approachable.
And we took over the city with these life-size cutouts as well
as thousands of stickers and in in all the bars and all the
(13:37):
restaurants and on all the street holes.
So the city was completely decked out in this message.
Yeah, it was beautiful. I thought it was really fun and,
and what was your, what was yourreaction?
Because I mean, it wasn't like you were being anonymous.
It's not like you were hiding itright?
No, I had like scan for a good time with my handle.
(13:58):
Some people can find me, yeah. Yeah.
And what was the what were the messages you were receiving
about this? So mostly positive I had.
The first message I received wasI had put one up in Amsterdam S,
which was probably where they need it the most, but also where
I got a message that was like, how dare you put this porn up in
(14:21):
front of children. I'm calling the police on you.
And they found my number and like called me, called my phone.
So that was a bit intimidating. And I you know, you have, you
have to, when you put your art into the world, it takes a life
on its own. And you have to.
(14:42):
You put your art into the world and your phone number with the
QR like you did not. I didn't put my phone number out
but I guess it was on my website.
Yeah. Publicly there was no hiding.
There was no hiding. And I, I remember because I was
still working at Doppler, so I had like gone to work that
morning and just sat there quiet, not sure what was going
to happen. And then I got this message and
(15:03):
then I thought, fuck, like, but but I did say that, you know, I
did say to him that, you know, this was for me actually a
learning opportunity. And nothing is shown in this
visual that's like, you know, you don't really see anything.
So one, a child probably isn't going to understand it.
(15:26):
And two, so many mothers and fathers have messaged me about
how this cartoon has opened up aconversation that they can have
with their children. So I so actually, and that is
the majority of messages, it's like I've had mom sending me
like their their kids sticking the poster and saying I'm
raising, I'm raising a true kinglike that have opened the
(15:50):
conversation to sex education with their children because of
it. So that is incredible.
I got very lucky because Jordan Kemper loved the idea.
So she was the first person to post a post having seen it on
the street. And so it really picked it up,
like the community and Amsterdampicked it up right away and
everyone was looking out for it.So the messages were incredible,
(16:11):
women saying that they have never received so much pleasure
in one night. The guys got the message, they
understood the assignment. They got the message.
Yeah, yeah. Nobody wants to.
We'll go home after that and nottry to be a king.
Yeah, it was a public service. Yes.
(16:34):
Yeah. Well, with so many messages that
are, I mean, this, this gentleman calling you is not.
He's not acting alone. This is a very common notion
that children should be protected.
But what we know is that children aren't protected from
negative messages about what normalize the normalization of
what sex should look like is. I mean, as much as we try,
(16:58):
YouTube is a public space or allthese places where children go
are not protected. So it's like, I see it as an
inoculation, Like the kids are getting all these messages we
don't want them to have whether we want to or not.
This is actually a really positive and playful message.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think exactly what you're saying that and this kind of
(17:19):
goes into effect and how I view the how now they're doing age
verification. I think in the United States,
they're trying to implement thisfor porn.
And it's such a double edged sword.
Kids are going to access porn anyways.
So we may as well actually be putting out porn or content or
educational materials that are showing authentic pleasure,
(17:43):
showing real body showing like sex education and and sex is not
performative, but that's real because they are going to get
around this. They are going to find it.
And also this is an amazing opportunity to educate them.
And that was what was so amazingto me was all these parents that
were coming to me saying, Oh my gosh, like I, my kid had these
(18:07):
questions and I was able to showthem your art like or like this
helped me approach it in a fun way with them because it can be,
I find talking about it awkward with them.
So that's. It's a cartoon.
It's a. Cartoon.
Yeah, it's a cartoon. And and that I think is part of
the brilliance of, of how how you approach this is it's a
cartoon. They look very innocent.
(18:30):
They look very like genuine and so and genuine in the way like
they're, you know, this guy is like basically inviting everyone
to be a king, right? That's it's cool.
Yeah, it's calling in. It's like a positive message
instead of calling people out. So it's also a positive message
(18:51):
for men. Yeah.
And so I want, I have three questions.
So I, I have to decide which wayto go.
But what I, what I want to know is what your journey was to
this, because it sounds like you're bringing your, the people
in your community and your followers along on your own
journey. And so maybe it didn't start
with the breakup that brought you to Amsterdam, But tell me
(19:12):
where your own journey started with with, you know, the orgasm
gap is a is it just one beginning of realizing, I mean,
is is the phrase that I could use for you, that you realize
we've been lied to. Yeah, I felt gypped.
I felt like scammed by life, that I didn't realize that
female pleasure was valid. And I think my journey with my
(19:34):
cartoons is and it's been with sexuality, it's been with
relationships. I think it started with, for
instance, learning about attachment theory and learning
why you can say what you want ina relationship like that is
allowed. I didn't know that.
I thought I was supposed to justbe quiet.
I thought that the anxious avoidance, the push pull
(19:59):
relationships, the highs and lows were the only way.
In fact, those were the aspirational way.
So I think it started just with relationships in general and
realizing, wait, there's other ways that I can act, that I can
be like to be closer to my authentic self.
And then that also happened whenit came to pleasure.
I remember having a partner of mine.
(20:19):
He. Went down on me, I had an orgasm
and he kept going down on me andI was like, I already came and
he goes, yeah, I know, let's go for Round 2.
And I was like, wow, I never knew that somebody could like
care that much about my pleasureor even get pleasure from
providing me pleasure because that was also for for him as
(20:40):
well and my own journey with that and.
I want to ask right in there, doyou feel part of this is
cultural? Because I think at least I'm
also American and so I the messages we received may be
different because we grew up in different part of the countries
and we're probably different generations, but I think it is a
(21:00):
bit cultural. Did this do you think part of
this transformation was a bit cultural?
Part of my transformation? You mean moving here?
Yeah, so like dating in a different culture because from
all accounts, Dutch people are more direct.
They would say that I think. And so did.
Is that part of this for you or did it have?
(21:20):
Yeah, I think, I think a lot of the shame around sexuality is
1000% cultural. I received messages from people
that grew up not knowing that orlike that women should not have
desire that they grew up religious.
They grew up religious, not talking about sexuality in
(21:42):
general, that they're still having to unlearn all of this
because they have such they viewed sex as good or bad or for
children or for not. So I think a lot of this is
cultural. I think in my own experience,
the guy for instance, that this was with, he was actually
American. So so.
(22:02):
That's good one one point. For the states.
Yeah, Good. No, no, that's good.
Yeah and yeah. But I guess I'm projecting a bit
here. But like I in the states when I
was growing up, I was always toodirect and I moved here and
people were like, we cannot understand what you want.
And so I always have this like story of I'm not direct enough
for the states. I'm too direct for the states,
(22:23):
I'm not direct enough for here. And so that I'm saying the same
thing. I'm the same me, but in two
different places. I'm too much and not enough.
That makes sense. And so I imagine in dating or
insects, those, those things, those themes might come up
culturally or whatever. So I just wondered what part of
that was. And also I think Amsterdam is a
city that can handle this cartoon as well.
(22:44):
Definitely, definitely. And I think indeed I was coming
here, I was dating all these different people and I was being
exposed to different cultures and how and how they view
pleasure. And I, I mean, I definitely can
see different lines of how this has translated throughout
different cultures. But I would say the biggest
thing was my evolution and myself.
(23:06):
And I think being less dependenton which partner I happen to get
and how they view my pleasure and more self reliant and
realizing OK, no, my pleasure isvalid.
And I think in the beginning of this I had felt lied to and my
initial reaction was anger. So I've gone through a big
(23:27):
evolution in that and I think many can relate.
You feel like you've been gypped.
And so I had 0 tolerance for anyone who didn't show that they
valued my pleasure and I would call them out.
And in more recent years, I've learned to call them in because
you have no idea what their story is.
And I've had amazing conversations with somebody who
(23:50):
with different people, one who never went down on me.
And I had said to him, like, younever go down on me.
And he said, oh, because all of his exes would push him away or
they would feel insecure. And I'm like, oh, no, I want
that. And then he, and then he went
down on me all the time and he liked it too.
And so I started to give people the space to meet me and explore
(24:11):
things with more curiosity because we all have so much
shame. But every one of us, and we
bring that all, all that baggageinto the bedroom.
Yeah, of course that is. It's so true.
And I think that one person's journey usually is reflective of
the collective. So I think that just because
(24:31):
you're you're, you are speaking about it, you're furthering the
conversation. I think there's been a
collective like awareness aroundthis and we don't ever think
that men or women are sitting over there going, oh good,
that's all part of my evil plan.But calling out is then the
process of being able to call in, in my experience.
(24:52):
So going through the calling outprocess is maybe as hard as it
is to look back, or maybe it's not it, it ends up in a good,
good place. Cool.
So I want to circle back to how the cartoon started, because it
didn't start with this one cartoon on the street.
You already had the characters for vanilla Cool Dance.
(25:13):
So tell me a little bit about that, about that evolution of
the evolution of the arts and the characters.
Not the characters of the King, Queen, but your style.
Yeah, So I had been living in this student flat and I was
unemployed. I was heartbroken.
I was incredibly embarrassed about my life situation.
And I realized that instead of being sad about it, maybe I
(25:37):
could do something with this to create more, a more empowered
version. So I made the decision that
every day for one year I was going to draw about my cringy,
embarrassing stories that made me feel insecure, but spin them
in a more empowered, fun way. And I did.
And, and every day for a year, I, I drew about my life.
(25:58):
And that's from day one. It was Vanilla Code Dance.
And I used the name Vanilla CodeDance because it was my first
AOL Instant Messenger screen name from the 90s.
And I used to be so embarrassed about it back then that when I
decided to make an account all about turning my shame and my
embarrassment into empowerment and reclaiming this narrative, I
(26:20):
brought back the screen name. So that's how that started,
yeah. You were bringing everything.
You were ashamed. All the stuff you hated was
coming out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love that. And if you scroll back, it was
very self deprecating. Very self deprecating humor.
But that's what I needed at the time too.
Yeah, it reminds me a little bitof Carolyn Elliott.
(26:42):
Is her name her existential kink?
I don't know if you're familiar with her work.
I'll. Have to.
She's a she's a mentor of mine, but she's a great one.
You'll maybe you'll enjoy it, but it reminds me of what we
bring our shadows out and play with them.
And now you've created somethingreally, really special.
(27:03):
And so that so you were, were you drawing before?
Is that something that you have always done?
No, I was, I mean, I was a art director and in interested in
graphic design. So I've always been a creative,
but I never thought I could drawand I and I still wouldn't say
that I could draw anything otherthan the current style that I
(27:25):
have. And I think what inspired me was
I took some Skillshare classes and there was one by Mari Andrew
and it was more on what is the story that you want to tell and
less on how does it look? And, and I also love, for
instance, hyperbole. And 1/2 is another great
example, like and, and sticks, who is a street artist and has
(27:48):
sculptures that are stick figures, but I find them
incredibly emotional. And so once I could get past
that, then I was, I started drawing just and my style kind
of evolved into something very unique to me along the way.
Yeah, amazing. And so between this first, I
(28:11):
mean this, the king and Queen thing was at least three years
ago, the first one. Yeah, I think four years ago,
now 4. Years ago, yeah, OK.
It was kind of like when we wereall on for furling from COVID.
I feel like that was the moment,like we were all kind of like
crawling out. We were able to see each other.
And then this, this was a momentfor me at least, where this
appeared on the street. And it just made me laugh
(28:33):
because it was something that was also.
I was like, did somebody read mymind or?
Yeah, I think that was also partof it.
It was the first King's Day indeed, when we could all be
back out in the streets. And I was like, we need to make
sure we're doing this in the right way.
Yeah, and it felt like a moment where we could rewrite stories,
(28:53):
right. We'd all had some time inside in
Amsterdam, maybe not as much as other places.
I don't know what your COVID waslike, but mine was much more
connected than a lot of other people where we were being
careful, but we were having coffee, walks and these things.
But it felt like there was street art again or a sign of
sign of things being different. So that was nice.
(29:14):
But since then, how would you say your message has evolved or
has it or I think you've really broadened your scope of it or
maybe you have not. So tell me.
Yeah. Well, I love that.
I mean, I've definitely, I've done other street art since.
So I've done work in the US after Roe V Wade was overturned.
(29:35):
A few. Yeah.
I can't believe now I'm saying this, I guess for or 4th of
July's ago. So with provocative artwork to
raise funds for Planned Parenthood.
I have done pride campaigns in Amsterdam.
And I would say that the scope of my work has evolved.
I mean, I've niched quite a bit,but then it of course it gets
(29:57):
wider. So I have become more interested
in exploring my own sexuality and different relationship
dynamics and dabbling in different worlds like the King
community and the Tantra community to understand what we
can learn from those in terms ofpleasure, in terms of
communication. And so those are some new, new
areas that I've been exploring more in my work.
(30:19):
Yeah. And I think that, that again, I
think that it's such a brilliantway to explore them with a
cartoon because these words, andI don't know if you're familiar,
like I did a, a Ted talk last year about finances and, and
marriage and partnership and unpaid labor.
And my initial idea was I wantedto compare it to like kink, like
(30:44):
the way we, the way our economy works.
We had to. Walk that back, because when
people hear these words, they can't.
They can't hit the palate like they can't hit our brains
without it being dangerous. There's all these words that we
can't. These words are not neutral, no.
And so the way that you're able to use them and with your
(31:07):
cartoons makes it so people can actually, it gets to that free,
at least my experience of them is.
It's a really brilliant way to get through to talk about
something really important like communication, like power, like
everything that that's everyone kind of wants to talk about or
wants to, but we can't because the words have too much power.
(31:27):
And so again, I wanted to do like, we're all in a big kink
with finances. Like we, we, we're in a power
game that we love. That's why it's still here.
Like we rely on, it gets us off.It makes us feel powerful.
It makes us feel unpowerful, butthat.
Was I would have loved to come to your talk.
We did not do it. We ended up doing it.
We ended up really walking it back because I didn't want the
(31:50):
words to be lost. I didn't want the message to be
lost. So what I love about your work
is you're using I love a lot of things about it, but what I
think is that it's a brilliant move to use your cartoon, your
medium to explore these things and and be so open with your
would you refer to as audience followers?
Like what is your word you? Use Yeah, my community and yeah.
(32:14):
Your community? Yeah.
Thank you. Yeah, I, I cartoons just make it
approachable and they disarm people and.
And I think we need that when itcomes to talking about this
stuff. Unfortunately, I believe that.
It is what it is, but do you find that you're braver or
(32:34):
because you're incredibly brave to, to we feel like we know
what's going on with you a little bit, right?
We don't, we don't really, but we, you're giving us these
glimpses. And so do you think the cartoon
makes you be able to say more than you would otherwise if you
were just writing on sub stack or something?
Yeah, yeah. And I have written, I do write
on sub stack and I find it harder and I find it more
(32:56):
vulnerable and more scary because the cartoon does create
a small separation. Even when I say it's about me,
you know, for instance, my following is so kind and I
answer, I try to answer every single DM.
I start sharing a little bit more on my personal account as
(33:18):
well and, and I, and on my sub stack and I am aware of like the
ratio of men to women. Maybe there ends up being more
men on sub stacks that follow meand maybe it's because I put my
photos as opposed to only cartoons.
I'm not sure the reason. But I do notice that it makes me
feel a little bit more vulnerable, especially as a as a
(33:40):
woman working in this space. So there is a lot that the.
And yeah, I also find it important to show the human
behind it because, for instance,I think there was a cartoon
where it was about body hair andthen I showed like me, what is
it like trimming my whiskers? And I think there is something
(34:04):
grounding in the fact that, Oh yeah, this is a real person too.
And that does feel scarier and that does feel more more
vulnerable in a way. But I think finding this balance
of of there is a human behind this and yeah, adds a bit more
depth and realness to it. Yeah, but it's also very brave
because I remember early in my career ending a few projects
(34:27):
because I was physically afraid for my safety.
And so that you're showing otherwomen that it's OK to tell your
story. And I so I think that that's
cool. But what I want to know is what
you're learning about these things because you're finding it
very important to go on this journey, which I love, and
you're sharing it with us, whichI love.
But what would you say? And you're learning and you
(34:48):
don't have to say this is where you are in your process right
now. I'm talking to you on this day.
In 10 years, you might be somewhere different.
But at this moment, what are youlearning through Tantra, Tantra
and kink and BDSM and all these things?
What are you? What are your like?
Report to us from the inside fora second.
Sure. Gosh, so many things.
(35:08):
I think that when you go to these more niche spaces, there's
a level of awareness around communication, consent,
boundaries, feeling for yourselflike your own boundaries that
we, I guess in the mainstream don't discuss.
(35:32):
So when we talk about consent, people think, Oh my God, me too
movement and OK, yes, she said yes.
Versus to me, when I enter thesemore niche spaces, we really
unpack what does consent look like at what and how sexy it can
be, how you can have a conversation with somebody and
(35:54):
they say, OK, like my boundary is I want you to like lightly
stroke my thigh and then your hand can hover above my penis.
But I don't want like touch. And you're like, oh, I didn't
even think about something that like specific.
And then it gets you thinking like, where is my actual
(36:15):
boundary? Because we're so used to saying
yes, no and and black and. White.
Black and white when there's allthis grayness.
Another thing that I recently learned is these temple nights
in Tantra. They ask you sometimes mid flag
and you don't need to be playing, but mid experience.
Are you still where you want to be?
Because maybe you don't want to be in the same place that you
(36:38):
did one minute ago or where you want to be in one minute and
just constantly having these check insurance that what it
these spaces have taught me the most is how to communicate
boundaries, desire and also how to connect better with myself to
really feel in to me, even if I need to take a beat and come
(37:00):
back to it. What is it that I really want?
What, where is my my boundary and, and am I being honest with
the other person? Because when I overstep my own
boundaries, even though it's notthe other person's fault, that's
also not nice to them. Like that's also a disservice to
the other person because they think you're enjoying yourself
(37:21):
when you're really not. And so I've learned so much from
these spaces. This goes way beyond sex, right?
Oh yeah, this is. This is cultural, this is in
your everyday life. This changes your perception.
Like I said it, it changes my perception of the entire world
economy. Like completely this again,
(37:43):
these themes you get to explore because it's such an extreme.
It's not extreme. We find it extreme, but it's not
extreme. It's actually rather it's a,
it's a transpersonal experience that helps you learn about
yourself. And that that's why it makes me
sad that these words and these experiences are so taboo.
But why I love that you're pulling them through in your
(38:05):
cartoons. So because we can talk about
them. And So what else?
Like where what is the most maybe pull that through to being
an international person. So you're living abroad now?
Six years? No is longer.
Almost 10, yeah. Almost 10.
Yeah, sorry. We're about the same.
And I feel like what I can applythrough these themes,
(38:27):
communication culture, I find them say like I find having a
visa very Dom sub, you know whatI mean?
Like I find these pull these themes pull through for me in
international living. And so how have you explored
that at all? I'm just curious.
I haven't, but I I love that. And I mean, you think of all
(38:49):
these, I mean, I'm in an incredibly privileged position
to be here. I have AI was able to get a
Polish passport, but I know so many people that are trying to
stay in the Netherlands, for instance, or trying to move and
they're definitely in a Dom sub relationship with the
government. You know, being and and I
(39:11):
haven't thought about it though,so I'm definitely going to think
about it more after. But indeed into how these
similar to what you were saying about finance, how these themes
that people are so afraid of of talking about transcendent to
every relationship dynamic. We have career like every it's
(39:32):
all in our interpersonal dynamics.
Yeah, yeah. And so I think what your work
does is brings it out into the open and maybe we'll start using
different words, but I really think not be too dramatic about
it, but I think these types of things can really change the
world a bit. They can shift, they can shift
the world a little bit just because we can talk about it
(39:52):
through cartoon, right? But I what I know from your work
more broadly your your communityis that you are you really are
living this what you're giving to us and so.
Why do you think it's so important for you, for yourself,
and for maybe your mission in life right now?
Because I do, I think you find this is one of the things you're
(40:14):
supposed to do here, right? When you're you've opened
yourself up to a lot of different spaces.
So becoming sex educator, one ofthe sex educator of the year or
these things, what is it do you think that is emerging for you
when you go into these spaces? Are you finding more safety in
the world? Are you expressing different
(40:34):
parts of yourself? Are you exploring different
themes? Is there something?
Sorry I'm asking you such deep questions, but I think you can
do it. Great.
Yeah, I think I am finally becoming the woman I was meant
to be and the woman that wouldn't that would be if she
didn't grow up, you know, learning to feel shame due to
(40:58):
society, due to my lived experiences.
And I think that we are, you know, that we're all born into
this world, free from shame. But along the way, we dim our
light. We learn to make ourselves
smaller. We stop communicating.
And and this permeates everything.
This is this shows up in how we do our job.
(41:20):
This shows up in what we believewe should you know how far we
can go in life and it just makesme so sad that we nothing we
feel is in isolation and we all feel it and nobody's talking
about it. We are all you know, I have
(41:42):
thousands of people that share their stories with me and
thousands of others that share the same story with me.
So if it's so beautiful to realize that what you are going
through alone, you're not so special after all, you're not
going through it alone. We're all of us are going
through something. And if we just talked about it
(42:03):
more, we would be able to live so much more confidently because
it loses its power in conversations and it loses its
power and openness. And I think that's what my my
mission is. And, and I think through vanilla
cool dance, she started as a very aspirational character of,
(42:25):
of mine and a part of me. And I think the longer I live
with her and draw her and experiences as I get to start, I
get to embody what I share with the world and I become we, we
start to merge and we were not always like that.
And, and now my character and myself have really started to
(42:47):
find one another in the past five years, four years.
Wow, Very. You're a method actor.
Yeah. I'm method.
I'm method drawing. You're method drawing.
No, I love it. That's perfect.
Well, and I think all art is an expression of a part of our
self. And so it's it's cool to have
that be a person. Well, it's personified for you,
yes. And so when you're drawing,
(43:09):
you're pretty like it's pretty clear that you're you've had
either an experience like it or a series of experiences like it.
Has anyone you're dating ever approached you and been like,
hey, too close? Like, not sure what you're
drawing here. After.
I'm into this. Yeah.
(43:29):
Have they been like, hey, you can't draw that?
Or have they been like, that looks too much like me or has
there ever been an experience like that?
Not like that I luckily my 2 like last boyfriends have both
been amazing and and super supportive and always would
(43:50):
brainstorm with me. Even so they would come up with
ideas with me. I think it would look to be
different if they it was one forone.
But my male characters especially like besides skin
color and and hair color, they have the kind of the same face
so. It's.
More anonymous so I felt very supported by by them.
(44:12):
Recently I had a situation whereI I felt very uncomfortable and
dismissed one meeting somebody'sfamily and he made me feel very
uncomfortable whether or not he intended to with the work I do.
So that was an unfortunate experience, but I I think this
(44:33):
will always be a part of me. And obviously when I meet the
right person, how much should weshare of our personal life?
As is very open for discussion, but to be able to draw and
process through art, that's something that I definitely want
to keep. Yeah, no, that's amazing.
And and it's actually a really, I mean, maybe you feel this.
I felt this as being an artist, as a woman and being it kind of
(44:57):
more public about my life is it's not just my story as a
woman, it's never just your story.
So the heroine's journey in my opinion, isn't, is a community
story. So whenever, so whenever I'm
telling my story, it's also my husband of 22 years a story.
It's my kids story. And so I always maybe maybe I'm
(45:21):
too sensitive about it, but I'm always editing very creatively
what I tell I'm what I don't tell.
And so I think it's really, I would love if you would keep, I
would love to see vanilla cool dances take on motherhood on,
you know, like aging on, you know, I, I hope you keep her
(45:43):
with you as you go throughout your life.
And you're younger than I am. But this level of bravery, in my
opinion, is needed in women's stories.
And so I love that you're sharing it.
So if I can give you that reflection, that is, it's not
easy. And my partner and I did this
with the Ted Talk because it washis story too, because we've
(46:03):
been together so long. And that's a very tender
process, I would say, with women's stories.
And so I hope you keep doing it,even past whatever, wherever
life takes you, I hope you keep commenting and let it, letting
us in and softening and giving us these insights because
they're invaluable. Thank you.
(46:24):
Yeah. And I, and I really understand
that, that the editing and I think when you have other people
involved in your story. And I noticed that more when I
write my sub stack, because it'slonger form, you know, in a
single panel cartoon, there's not so much you're distilling A
singular moment. And in those it could, I've
(46:46):
really had no problem. And then when I start to expand
on them in longer form storytelling, I have been a more
cautious or sensitive or yeah inmy head about making sure I'm
respectful or making sure the other person has time to read it
first, that I'm not causing harmaccidentally by sharing my
(47:08):
story. Yeah.
But what I, I, what I've noticed, at least in what I
would like to give to you is make sure you're not leaving
parts out just to, I don't thinkit will do this, but there gets
to a point where you can't not hurt people.
Yeah, that is true. That is true.
I have a few stories that I'm I have in the bank, probably
because I'm I'm waiting to One of the greatest lessons I
(47:30):
learned is to write from a closea a healed, not a healed wound,
but a scabbed wound. Because when you are not an open
wound, because when you're sharing from an open wound,
you're so exposed to the world'sthoughts and, and if you haven't
(47:51):
processed it yourself, that can be very difficult.
So I'm that's been a big lesson to me to share from a, a scabbed
wound or skin. There must be a better way to
say this, a closed wound than a bleeding one.
Yeah, that's such good advice. Yeah.
And another story I heard is about a warrior who someone was
(48:14):
convinced they were going to kill them and they pull their
sword out and they don't don't kill them.
And then they come back the nexttime this person is convinced
they won't kill them because they didn't last time.
But then they pull out their sword and kill them.
And they said, what was the difference?
Why didn't you kill them the first time?
He said. The first time I was angry.
(48:34):
Oh, that's so. Yeah, that's amazing.
What a story. Yeah, so.
Now you can kill him with a clear head.
Yeah, but also not an anger, right?
Sometimes things need to be done.
And, and so this is what my lastquestion is for you.
We're wrapping up on time, but you mentioned something that
really resonated with me and it's part of a movement which
(48:56):
you said at the beginning you were very angry and now you're
able to call people in instead of calling people out.
Tell me about that process. It's a really important process
collectively, relationally, woman, women in general.
And I hate to universalize your story so much, but you are a
(49:16):
brilliant example of what's happening for a lot of women in
general. Tell me about that process.
Like what have you learned more broadly?
Yeah, and, and I mean, I think you see this with every aspect
of society and with new movements that come up and, and
how it creates polarization. And I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I
(49:42):
have very strong values and verystrong principles.
So it's not on me swaying withinthose values or principles, but
it's, you know, the pendulum swings in One Direction.
And I realized that my anger wasn't helping me connect with
(50:03):
what I really wanted. So ultimately, I would like a
partner. Ultimately, I I want to have
amazing sex. I don't want to just show up
with angry anger and assumption.And the person sitting in front
of me is not the world. It's not, they're not the
(50:25):
everything I had experienced up until that point.
And they had their own upbringing and their own lived
experiences. And I think it's really scary
what is happening in the world. It's really scary with the
rabbit holes of content that youcan get served on Instagram and
(50:45):
these echo chambers and the morethat we can bridge curiosity in
our interpersonal lives and realize like, OK, ultimately we
want to win, win here ultimately.
Like hopefully your partner wants to be a good partner.
Hopefully the person you're dating wants to show up for you
and approach things from a place, from compassion and
(51:09):
curiosity while still holding your boundaries and still
holding your standards. And I think we will get closer
to, you know, where we want to be and, and collectively start
to heal. Yeah.
What I want to ask in that process is, do you think there's
a way of doing this without thatalkalizing first, that anger?
No, but I think that you can. I think, I think anger is a
(51:35):
natural or disappointment is a natural reaction when you
realize that you could have had it differently and when you
realize that life could have been different.
I think how quickly you cycle through that anger or how you
handle that anger or how you react to that anger or channel
(51:55):
it is, is more in, in your control.
And I, I mean, I can still be angry for sure.
And, and I was part of it, you know, for years I would draw
cartoons that were very anti men, very calling men out and
they were funny and men followedme too, because they also
laughed at them because I made it in cartoon form.
(52:19):
And every once in a while I'll still do it too because, you
know, it's also OK. But but I realized I was part of
this, you know, if if a female follower that was following me
and soaking up all this content that they're going to leave
feeling I don't know better thanthe men that are out there,
which is not what I want to be. I don't want to feed that
(52:42):
anymore. Yeah, yeah.
So it's a life lesson to know how to how to channel anger and
how to recognize it. And so I think it's an important
lesson, honestly. And that's one that I think
you're also teaching us if and alchemizing.
So if if artists like you can alchemize in a group way, this
(53:04):
anger collectively we can move to AI don't want to say a more
productive because this kind of anger.
This is just my opinion from my own process.
Yeah, But learning how to use itwell is something that, at least
for myself, has been a lesson for me.
(53:25):
So I just wanted to hear. But your experience has benefit.
So it's really a pleasure to seefor me at least, other women
going through this process and getting to this place where they
take their place as creators and, and not taking, going
through all the stages of warrior, tearing it down,
(53:46):
building it back up and. I think anger isn't a bad
emotion and and if we're all just like passive and like
that's also not enough fire to create change either.
So we need. To I love what you said good.
(54:08):
Well, I have asked you so many hard questions.
Thank you for hanging with me and thank you for the work
you're doing. I I would love to see I want to
see your work on being an expat like and being an international
person. Just if my plug is to have an an
annoying expat cartoon at some point or annoying tourists.
(54:30):
No, but the themes you're exploring are super interesting.
I love the work you're doing in the world and I can't wait to
bring it to our listeners. And also, yeah, watch you keep
creating in the world. Thank you.
Well, it was such a joy talking to you and I.
I loved your your questions and this conversation.
But thank. You good.
Thanks for coming on and thank you so much for listening to
(54:53):
today's episode of the House of Peregrine podcast.
Please like and subscribe and please leave a comment.
I read every single one and we love hearing your input.
See you next time. OK, that's it for today.
I hope you've enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on
living internationally, join us at houseofperegrine.com to find
(55:13):
out how you can connect with ourcommunity.
Let's craft our life story with intention, together.
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