The Layers of Identity Abroad

From Copenhagen to Dubai, Ghana to Portugal, Mariam Navaid Ottimofiore shares the shift that transformed her life as a globally mobile family and helped each move feel intentional and  how each place becomes a layer of who we are—shaping our views on everything from taxation to tolerance. She brings us into the world of linguistic empathy and explains why speaking multiple languages doesn't just open doors, it creates different versions of ourselves.

In this episode:

• Recognizing the privilege of experiencing multiple corners of the world, while also acknowledging the realities

• What internationally mobile people bring to their host communities

• Linguistic empathy and how speaking different languages transforms who you are

• Choosing your mindset over your circumstances, whether navigating four-hour traffic in Accra or bureaucracy in a new language

Connect with Mariam and listen to the original episode - https://www.houseofperegrine.com/podcast/ep-039.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
And so instead of always focusing on what I was losing, I
started focusing on what I was gaining and how every place came
with me, you know, in my future adventures.
So it's a, it's a, it's a very subtle mind shift, but it's
about really understanding that we are so privileged to
experience so much of the world and being conscious about it.

(00:21):
And really acknowledging the influence that each place has on
you and how it shapes you is a very healthy process because
you're constantly developing, your ideas are changing, your
views are changing from that. You don't know where it's all
coming from. Did I start looking at taxation
so unfavorably when I was being taxed 56% in Copenhagen?

(00:43):
Or was it when I paid 0 tax in Dubai that I started thinking
deeply about the the benefits oftaxation?
You know, you're you're is constantly changing.
And so this is an important exercise for people on the move
to to sit down and chart all their different layers, their
different influences, and how each place shapes them.

(01:04):
Yeah. I also want to ask, do you, I
really believe that it can be a two way process.
So contributing to where you're always contributing wherever you
are I think, but what I love howyou put things.
So I want to ask you this question specifically.
What do you think people who areliving internationally bring to
a place? Obviously their cults are

(01:26):
obviously their different point of view, but tell me what you
think about that. Because I feel like that's been
my realization is I take something, I gain and I also
give wherever I am. Very true, very true.
It definitely is a two way St. and I think the question you
pose, first of all, is such a great question.
What do we bring when we move toa new country?

(01:47):
I think we bring a fresh pair ofeyes.
I think we might bring a unique way to problem solve.
I think we might bring fresh ideas.
I think we bring tolerance. I think we bring respect.
I think we bring so many things with us.
You know, expat life is a beautiful thing.
It's an exchange of culture and ideas and people mix and learn

(02:09):
from each other. And like you said, that learning
goes both ways. It isn't just happening one way.
I think it's, it's definitely a question of bringing that fresh
perspective with you because we've lived in different
countries, we've, we know there isn't just one solution to this
problem. We've seen it being handled in a
different way. You know, we know that there

(02:30):
isn't just one way to problem solve.
We've seen things done in a different way.
So I think that kind of innovation is also something we
bring, that kind of like a creative out-of-the-box
thinking. That's something we bring.
And these are such valuable aspects to any society because
often when you're just living ina place, you don't see so many

(02:52):
things clearly because you've never done things differently
before. But when you have been exposed
to that, that's when you can say, oh, but this was done so
differently in Ghana, and it worked out perfectly there.
So maybe we could implement the same thing.
Yeah. And so I think that is what we
bring. We bring that fresh perspective.
We bring our questioning minds. People who've never moved

(03:13):
anywhere, they don't question sometimes have the things that
we're constantly questioning. And yes, it can be a torturous
process, but yet it can also perhaps lead to do a better
process. We go so many government
offices. We go through so many
immigration processes. We can tell you which ones we
liked, and we can tell you whichones work, and we can tell you

(03:33):
which ones were awful and where they could improve.
I mean, getting my license, you know, converted here, I could
give you better examples. I could tell you how Singapore
did it, you know, and how painless it was.
Always learning. You have all these different
experiences. You can contribute so much to
the betterment of society. But I think also bringing

(03:56):
multicultural people, people from different backgrounds and
different languages. I haven't had a chance to talk
about what I think that why I think that is so important, but
I will just mention quickly a term called linguistic empathy.
I believe if that when someone moves to a new country, we
contribute to linguistic empathywhere we understand and accept

(04:19):
and recognize people who speak adifferent language than us and
we allow an open for that space to include them.
And you know, I, I'm always learning the language of every
new place I move to. I'm successful in some and I
fail miserably in in in some others.
But that's not the point. The point is that you're opening
yourself up to the new language.And I think that when the

(04:41):
existing society also opens itself up to multilingual
individuals who are coming in, everybody wins.
I really don't see any downside in that.
So I would add linguistic empathy to the list of the long
list that we just mentioned. Yeah, in my own country, I
witnessed that first hand. There is no none of that really,
because it's, and I think it's really one of the reasons that I

(05:04):
wanted my children to live abroad is so they would have
more than one language. And that I think makes your life
so, so much different to have more than one language, that it
was important enough for me to want that for my children.
Because of empathy, yes, but also you.
Just what I've heard, and you'rethe perfect person to ask this
one too, is that you actually think differently or feel

(05:25):
differently when you're speakingdifferent languages.
So you almost have more than oneyou.
Yeah, you have more than one you.
You're very different in each language you speak in.
I know I am very, very carefree.For instance, in Urdu, which is
my native language, I'm very informal.
I'm a lot more formal, almost boring.
Sometimes I feel in German, you know, stick to the rules.

(05:49):
I say things very properly. I feel like a different person
when I'm speaking different languages and you know, whether
it's Italian or whether it's Danish or whether it's Arabic,
whether it's Mandarin, whether it's Tui or whether it's
Portuguese. I've tried and understood so
many different languages to different degrees.
I speak about 4-5 fluently and then I butcher another four or

(06:12):
five just as fluently, shall we say.
But it's, you know, it's so interesting.
And now I have about not 8-9 languages in my head.
So it has affected my ability tolearn Portuguese to that extent
because my brains just full. I had no capacity for a new
language when I moved here. Of course I can do I think I've

(06:35):
done pretty well in terms of doing small talk and doing, you
know, day-to-day errands. But my Portuguese, even after 3
1/2 years, I still would struggle in a government office
to do something to do like a bureaucratic process in, in
Portuguese. You know, part of it was because
of the pandemic when we moved here, everything was shut down.
So you didn't take a chance to practice and everyone was

(06:56):
wearing a mask. Imagine you move to a new
country, you can't understand anybody and everyone's wearing a
mask, so you can't see their lips.
So it's some of these really slow down my a lot faster.
But it's interesting, right? So my, we have different
experiences in every place in Denmark.
I had no kids and I kicked up Danish like this four months,

(07:16):
five months, you know, intensivelessons.
So it's different. We're different in every place.
If somebody were to come and nowtell me you don't speak good
enough Portuguese for having been here three years, I'll say
yeah. But you should have met 24 year
old Mariam who became fluent in German, became fluent in Danish,
you know. And you know, how much capacity

(07:37):
does an individual have? We're different in every place
we go to. Well, and I think that's the
important thing. You have to be kind to yourself
as well. As long as you're making an
effort, I think you're doing a good job.
Yeah, I tell people that when I,when I moved my first time
internationally, I had three children under 5.
And so I always say, you know, Ithink that had something to do

(08:00):
with me. I was at full capacity in every
way keeping them going. I would have loved the
opportunity to, to learn my capabilities of language
learning as a young person. But I think we have, like you
said, we have to. I, that's the kindness I found
in my own journey is I was kind of doing a lot and I have 3
Dutch speaking children. So that's not nothing.

(08:20):
So supporting them and their language journey, it has been my
contribution and I have to have,I've had to have make peace with
that so far. So but I do try, I do try my
best, but I, I love the way you are framing this.
So thank you. Let's move on.
So you your journey took you from Dubai to where you are now?
Or did Was there another stop I forgot?

(08:41):
Yes, there was one more stop from Dubai.
We moved to Ghana. We moved to Accra, Ghana, which
is in West Africa, one of the most beautiful corners of the
world I've ever been privileged enough to live in.
And everyone thought we were crazy moving out of Dubai and
moving with a six year old and athree-year old to a malaria

(09:04):
zone, which is what Ghana is. There is the risk of catching
malaria. We never caught it.
And you know, I mentioned this, Mikkel, because if you would
turn to somebody who lives in London and said and said, oh, I
don't want to move to London. I might catch a cold if I move
to London, right? It would sound absurd.
And that's what it sounds like to somebody in Ghana living in
Ghana. If you say, oh, I don't want to

(09:25):
move to Ghana, I might catch malaria just to put it in
context. So malaria is just a fact of
life there and as it is in many other parts of the world as
well. And so that if you sign up for
that, you go into it willingly, knowing what the situation is,
knowing what the risks might be and learning to live with those
risks. If you've never moved to a

(09:46):
hardship location hosting before, it can be a quite
challenging. The most challenging thing
though, is not that you might not find your favorite brand of
shampoo most challenging thing is this here your mindset,
Because are you going to be the person who is constantly
complaining about the slow Internet or the fact that the
guy never came to fix your washing machine between the time

(10:08):
of 10 and two? And that's what he said.
Now you've been stuck at home and you know you're frustrated
or you're stuck in traffic, awful traffic.
And I mean traffic, like 4 hour traffic, like you're just stuck
in traffic for four hours. Are you going to be the person
who complaints about that? Or are you going to be the
person who says, well, I might be stuck in traffic for four

(10:28):
hours, but look at these beautiful St. vendors with
carrying baskets of avocados andnuts and plantains on their head
and look at their gorgeous clothes and their kente cloth
and what are they wearing? And maybe I should just get a
stack and cool off and make this, as you know, less painful
for myself as possible. You can either move to Africa

(10:50):
and complain every single day, every single moment, or you can
sit and enjoy everything that that corner of the world has to
offer to you. So it's definitely not for the
faint hearted. And Ghana is super safe, as you
know, cultural amazing, amazing culture.
And so we had the best time of our life there and we didn't

(11:12):
miss Dubai at all. We didn't miss the man made
islands or the seven star hotelsor the ski slope in the middle
of the desert. No, no, no, no.
We were very happy. We'd be in gorgeous Ghana where
you know, there was a beautiful white Raven who would come and
crow in on our balcony at 4:30 AM.
And that was our alarm every day.

(11:33):
OK, that's it for today. I hope you've enjoyed our show.
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