The divorce rate among couples abroad is significantly higher than averae so even if you are happily coupled it is wise to be familiar with the complexities and pitfalls of international divorce and the documents and agreements that are essential before you leave your home country. Magali van Maanen, an esteemed divorce lawyer and mediator with nearly two decades of experience at De Boorder Advocaten in Amsterdam gives us an overview and some sage advice about divorcing abroad.. What struck me most was Magali's profound perspective on divorce as a "threshold to a whole new life" rather than simply an ending, a powerful reframe.
The conversation is about how living abroad amplifies both personal growth and relationship challenges. As Magali explains, when you're building a life in a new country, certain personality traits emerge that you never knew existed.
This episode is a a must listen in your life abroad
In this clip of the full episode:
• Why consulting a divorce lawyer before making final decisions can really save a lot of time and money for international couples
• The reality that children within the marriage abroad can cause unknown limitations or complexity that you didn’t foresee. For example: children cannot leave the Netherlands without both parents' agreement so parents might have to remain in the NL because the other spouse wants to stay.
• Spousal support is vastly different from one country to another–check before you act
• Considering the importance of securing your own visa rather than relying solely on a partner's
• Magali's transformative question: "What do you want your life to look like in three years?"
• Why international relocations often become make-or-break moments for relationships
For Magali's complete wisdom and practical guidance, listen to the full episode at https://www.houseofperegrine.com/podcast/ep-059. Connect with Magali at De Boorder Advocaten through their website, and remember, seeking advice doesn't mean you're getting divorced; it means you're making informed decisions about your future.
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Episode Transcript
Hello everyone, and welcome backto the House of Peregrine
podcast. Today, we're bringing you a
conversation focused on the often complex world of
international divorce. Magali Van Manan is joining us
to give us insight into it. Her life is a divorce lawyer and
mediator for international families for nearly two decades.
She offers us. Invaluable guidance for anyone
navigating separation or divorceabroad.
(00:22):
I was surprised to learn that asan international, it's crucial
to consult a lawyer before making the final decision to
divorce and why it is great ideato make agreements in writing
before you even leave your own country.
Magali also addresses the realities after following a
partner to a new country. And offers practical.
Advice on how these spouses can prepare themselves financially
and emotionally for potential separation.
(00:44):
More listen to the full episode,which we've linked.
Below, of course. They're also often afraid of
losing their children I'm sure, but that's not a reality unless
there's abuse. It really isn't.
I just want to set the record straight, like there's many
cases you can lose your kids, but just not being with them as
often is not one of them under Dutch law.
Exactly, exactly. And that is indeed a
(01:07):
misunderstanding that I hear a lot.
I think that also has to do withthe fact that child protection
services are often pulled into acase, You know, if there was a
fight in the house and the police are called, then they're
called CPS. And often people get scared
because of what they say. But that's it's completely
unnecessary. OK.
(01:28):
So in general, they want your kids to be with you if that's
healthy for them. Yeah.
And then what other fears financially do people generally
have? Mostly it has to do with having
enough income, having enough assets to be able to not only
live comfortably. But of course, it's very
difficult to find suitable housing these days to find a
(01:50):
house. Number one, you can find
something, but also something that is actually affordable.
And especially if we're talking about parents with a different
level of income and where they used to be quite a comfortable
house, where the children have their own bedrooms and suddenly
one of the spouses, usually the woman has to live elsewhere.
(02:12):
And considering her income, has to move to a 2 bedroom
apartment, that's difficult. Yeah.
And it's especially because we're often looking at a more or
less 5050 division of care, maybe 6040 or a little bit more,
a little bit less. You do need to have a suitable
place and preferably close to each other so that the children
(02:34):
can move comfortably from one parent to the other and can go
to school quite easily from fromboth parents.
That's that's a major concern. Yeah, it's a major concern.
Is there anything people can do to better their situation?
Ask for more. Assuming you don't have a
prenuptial agreement that considers this ahead of time, is
there anything you can advise people to do to increase their
(02:56):
chances of being able to supportthemselves better?
Yeah, well, if it also depends on the age of the children, of
course, but at least do your best to make a step into the
working world. And even if it's only voluntary
work, but at least try to find something for yourself that you
can at least in time find a job.It could also be following a
(03:21):
course education because these days spousal support, if you're
eligible, will only last for five years.
So after that five years, you'regoing to have to find work for
yourself anyway, so you might aswell stop doing that now.
Right. OK.
So just start standing on your own feet financially as soon as
you can. And that doesn't hurt, that
(03:42):
doesn't hurt your chances because there's a lot of times
where if you don't have income in other countries that you get
more spousal support than if youdid before.
That's not the case in the Netherlands.
Is that what I'm hearing? No, yes and no.
When we look at spousal support,there's two main subjects.
The first is need, what do you need?
Which budget do you need every month to sustain yourself?
(04:03):
And the other is capacity to pay.
So the person who has to pay spousal support, how much income
they have which is available to pay spousal support.
So that need the budget that youneed is determined by wealth
during the marriage. What were you accustomed to
spending during the marriage? And whatever you earn yourself
(04:25):
is subtracted and the other spouse is asked to fill in the
gap. And what we usually see is that
capacity to pay by no means reaches the amount of the gap of
the need. So usually someone will have the
opportunity to earn and earning without losing spouses.
(04:46):
And do you so this I'm going to change direction.
So thank you for all this advice.
By the way, I feel like this is going to help a lot of if you're
getting a divorce from the Netherlands, listen to this.
This is like a lot of great advice.
I want to ask, do you, if you were to move abroad in your with
all your knowledge, would you come on someone else's visa as
a, as a divorce lawyer? Do you think that's a wise move
(05:07):
even in the strongest of marriages?
The lawyer's answer is always. It depends.
Of course we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna put a big old
like disclaimer on this episode.This depends.
Yeah. Not legal advice.
This. That's yeah.
Exactly though, so for me to be honest, it's OK to go initially
on the spouses visa because you need to be able to build up a
(05:30):
life over there in the new country.
You need to at least, you know, have the feeling that you're
settled for the first couple of years.
But my advice would be at least either at the beginning or at
some point to get information onhow to get your own visa,
because as you said yourself, usually marriages tend to start
to crack after the first couple of years, maybe two or three
(05:52):
years. I know that here in the
Netherlands, there are opportunities to get a visa to
be able to stay with your children, your minor children,
but I don't know if that's the case in other countries.
And of course, it would make life increasingly difficult if
the visa is the reason you have to leave the country and that
you can't be with your children.Yep.
Or you can't work. There's some visas where you
(06:13):
can't work. Yeah, I find that incredibly
insane that that's the case and so.
But what I want to ask is, is there anything we can do?
Any. What are the?
Why do you think these as a divorce lawyer?
What do you see in internationalcouples that really gets in
there and starts dividing people?
If you had to name a few things.Usually what I see in practice,
(06:38):
people tend to have different ideas on what the relocation was
going to bring and what it has actually brought.
You know, some people see it as an adventure and oh, it's going
to be wonderful, but it's hard. It really you have to make an
effort to fit into either the expat society or the Dutch, in
this case Dutch society. And that's really difficult.
(07:01):
And if it was just one spouse who is the expats who who's
working, then you often see thatthat person builds a life for
themselves because he or she hassocial contacts through work,
has something to do every day because of work in free time,
does some sports. Generally lives more or less the
(07:23):
same life as that they had in their home country, except it's
in a new country. And the training spouse is left
with making sure the family get into society and they are
genuinely generally challenged with all the aspects of living
in a new country. And mostly then if that is leads
(07:45):
to an unhappy spouse and it's brought up, Oh no, but
everything is fantastic over here and I never want to leave.
So there's no listening to the arguments of the other person.
So the training spouse has to understand that the working
spouse has a new life, but the working spouse has to understand
that for the training spouse it's really difficult and that
they need help. Yeah.
(08:07):
And they're working on your combined life while you're
working on your own advancement.And that's a massive, I think
it's undersold how incredibly difficult that can be and how
that really can break up a marriage.
Yeah, absolutely. And how rapidly you're both
having completely different lives and you're growing in
(08:29):
different ways and that you can either grow together or you can
grow apart. But it is a massive moment, I
would say almost as big as having children is moving to a
country with someone because it's such a time of rapid growth
and you have to be mindful aboutthat.
Yes, and and of course you're more dependent on each other
(08:50):
rather than on family, friends, community.
You're really you have to be a close knit unit for it to be
able to be a success. That's so true.
And so do you think that's the primary reason we see such a
higher incidence of divorce among international couples?
Is that mean? Yes, especially because when
you're living abroad, I think certain personal characteristics
(09:13):
will rise or come. They will come up more than if
you're in your normal habitat with your normal friends and
family where everything is running smoothly.
And when you're over here, some some things might come up that
you never knew about. Yes, it's so true.
It's so true. You have different opportunities
and also parts of your personality do become more
(09:36):
exaggerated or uncovered. Like I it's, it's a time of
rapid personal growth. And so also you could have good
things that come out that you didn't know and then that can
lead you to grow more than your partner perhaps.
True, and I think also immersingyourself in a new culture can be
a very interesting and and can also maybe bring some new things
(09:57):
to your also your jaundai. Yeah, yeah.
Cool. OK, I want to ask you this this
other question. So when we spoke before in the
pre interview, you told me and you mentioned it briefly at the
beginning of our interview, but you told me when someone comes
in that you asked this question.So I want you to say it again
slowly. It is.
What do you want your life to look like in?
(10:19):
Just pretend like I'm coming to you that you're asking that
first question so people can askit to themselves if they're
thinking that they may want to end their marriage.
Ask me that question slowly, like you would a client.
Do you mean that this divorce happens?
What would you then want your life to look like in three years
time? Where will you be living?
(10:40):
How will the division of care for the children be?
Will you be working? Where would you be living?
So not only the country but alsoplace, house, Just a general
picture of what your life would look like.
And the answer to that question is a really good jumping off
point for how you proceed with that next step, I think.
(11:01):
What will this bring you? What will this take from you?
What are you moving towards? What you are you moving away
from? What are your values?
That's what you're also getting to, right?
Exactly. And that will not be the same
for any two people. Absolutely not.
It's also helpful for someone toembrace the process of the
divorce, not only see it as a terrible period in their life,
(11:26):
but also as a threshold to a whole new life.
And I think that's very important as well because the
divorce is terrible. I mean, I feel like you just
changed everyone's life right there.
I feel like that was incredible wisdom that you just dropped.
You gave. I have goosebumps.
Yes, so I would I would agree and I've seen it over and over
(11:46):
again. Relationships.
I think Esther Pearl said it best.
You'll have many marriages in your life over the course of
your life. If you do choose marriage, if
you're if you are rare, it will be to the same person.
Yes. And so that I love this idea,
it's very romantic idea, but also it really brings this
necessity to have someone in your corner so that you can make
(12:09):
really sound decisions based on your values and what you want.
And not just fear or stare at staying in things too long or
maybe being impulsive and endingsomething before you've actually
strategize or had a really soundstrategy for yourself.
You're doing holy work. Muggly.
That's all I'm going to say. Thank you.
Thank you. You're doing really hard work in
(12:29):
a holy way is another way of putting it.
Yeah, well, that's that's the goal.
I mean, if someone says to me, Iwant my life to look like X in
three years time and we break itall down and we say, OK, well
then what budget do you need to be able to do that?
And it turns out the money's notthere to be able to afford that
lifestyle. Well, then we have to rethink
(12:51):
the options and come up with a Plan B.
And I think that's a better way of looking at it than people
coming in and saying, OK, well, divide 5050.
Good luck. And I hope I never have to see
you again in my office because that's genuinely how I feel.
People are very welcome to come back, but I hope for them they
don't have to. But I feel I'm not helping
people if I'm only let's doing everything the legal way.
(13:15):
Yeah, yeah. And it's, and it's incredibly,
incredibly excruciating time in life.
So I see it as a portal, like a death portal you're going
through. And like you said, something's
on the other side of that. And so I really loved having
someone who is in your corner, who has that perspective.
It's not necessarily about hurting the other person,
(13:36):
although it can be, but it's notnecessarily that's not your
perspective. It's about making your life what
you want it to be. And that is, it's so beautiful.
I'm so grateful to Magali for coming on and giving us an idea
about the immense complexities and emotional toll of divorcing
abroad. It is absolutely vital to
understand the financial, legal and logistical implications of
an international divorce before making any final decisions.
(13:59):
For our full comprehensive advice and a deeper dive into
these issues, listen to the fullepisode which we have linked
below and check out our guide which is on
houseofperegrine.com. For couples that are considering
a move abroad or any other transition in their
relationship, we made it from those who have been there and
don't want anyone else to have to go through the same.
Thank you for joining us today and we hope this conversation
empowers you to make warm decisions for your future.
(14:21):
OK, that's it for today. I hope you've enjoyed our show.
For the latest insights on living internationally, join us
at houseofperegrine.com to find out how you can connect with our
community. Let's craft our life story with
intention, together.
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