Mickelle sits down with American photographer Darren Smith, House of Peregrine’s Featured Artist for 2025–26, to explore Mayflies—his New Coffeetable book which compiles portraits from gatherings and festivals like Burning Man, Milkshake, and Día de los Muertos.
Darren’s roaming studio, giving us Irving Penn vibes, invites his subjects to step out of spectacle for a moment during the event and into intimacy, revealing the entire persona and allows us a window into these events and the people who are “dancing on every possible surface”
During the interview they cover Darren’s peregrine path from small-town Virginia to Australia, New York, France, and Amsterdam; assisting the late fashion photographer Stan Shaffer; and the ethics and consent practices that make Mayflies a true collaboration. Darren shares how removing context (but leaving wristbands) deepens the story, and how curating 1,000+ portraits became an act of restraint, devotion, and trust.
In this episode:
The making of Mayflies and the art of “chosen” identities
A mobile studio: turning chaos into intimacy
Ethics, consent, and collaborating with emerging communities
Editing a thousand portraits into a living book
Expat life, impermanence, and raising a third-culture kid in the Netherlands
Connect:Darren Smith: mayfliesbook.com • IG @mayfliesbookHouse of Peregrine: houseofperegrine.comShop: Mayflies coming soon to the HOP Marketplace
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi, I'm Mikkel Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes what we are
all about perfectly, those that craft their life story with
intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I've
(00:23):
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews, I hope
to connect those living internationally more deeply to
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances and meaning making to global
(00:46):
parenting and relationships to make your time abroad more
intentional, edifying, and full of beauty.
Find us at houseofperegrine.com where you can find more ways to
connect with the ethos of Peregrine.
I hope you enjoy today's guest. Let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome backto the House of Peregrine
podcast. I'm Michael Weber, and today I'm
(01:08):
excited to bring you American photographer Darren Smith, who
is our 20252026 Artist of the Year for House of Peregrine.
His most recent work, Mayflies, is what we'll be exploring this
year as a community at House of Peregrine.
I just happen to have it right here.
It's a beautiful, beautiful bookfull of images of people who are
(01:30):
coming together for very short amounts of time that are life
changing and are really special.Think Burning Man or Day of the
Dead. These are festivals that people
come together and they create new versions of themselves and
find belonging, which I think resonates deeply with the
experience of being from abroad.So join us this year as we
(01:54):
celebrate this work. We go deep with it and meet
Darren today. We are talking to him and going
deep on his work, his past and his life as a Peregrine.
I really hope you enjoy it. Welcome Darren.
I am so glad that you have joined us today.
How are you doing? I want to just first point out
your beautiful pink headphones that you have gifted us with
(02:16):
today. So we'll talk about that in a
second, but I really want you tostart by introducing yourself
and your book Mayflice. I'm Darren Smith and I grew up
in a small town in Virginia and when I turned 19 I decided it
would be a great idea to go to university in Australia, just
completely on the opposite side of the world.
(02:38):
As one does. Yeah, exactly.
And it was through that curiosity and international
mindset that I, when I later moved to Amsterdam, I started
just photographing the nightlifehere and discovering what I love
about the city and the freedom and identity, the the ability to
(03:00):
be who you want to be. That really inspired me to set
out around the world and discover places where people can
freely express themselves. And so the place I grew up,
yeah, it was also kind of in within that Satanic panic
comments and. I don't know about the Satanic
Panic moment. All right, so that was in the
(03:22):
like 80s, early 90s when, you know, the idea of sex, drugs and
rock'n'roll, these are all gateways to Satanism.
And that you played the record backwards.
That's that was, you know, goingto put you down the wrong path,
so to speak. So I tried to get away from that
(03:43):
as far as possible, because it was just a place where in
growing up you really felt that your own identity was somewhat
constrained within society's parameters.
Just had a really strict code ofconduct where you grew up.
Absolutely. And it wasn't say like
completely religious based. It was just a societal fears
(04:04):
around that time of gang violence and drugs in the early
90s in the US and I think for small towns that fear was very
real and I very much didn't wantto be a part of that.
Yeah. Interesting.
So were you a like a weird kid that had to kind of, I say
(04:24):
weird, like I love weird people,so this is a compliment.
But were you like having to kindof tamp down things that you
wanted to try or things you wanted to express while you were
growing up? Absolutely.
I remember I had blue hair and then I got called into the
principal's office and then theywere just like, look, we need to
have a, a talk about your attitude and like, well, what
(04:47):
attitude, you know, well, we seethat you're going through some
changes right now. Yes, have blue hair.
And so that was alarming where you grew up to have blue hair.
Yeah, well, that exactly. If that is what is alarming, I
really wonder what they think ofmy book so.
Yeah, I, I, I hope, I hope that things have changed a bit.
(05:10):
But let's, let's talk about yourbook in a second.
I wanted to 1st, it's mentioned quite prominently and I think
it's a big part of your life that you were working with Stan
Schaefer at the beginning of your career.
And so I wonder if you could tell us that story quickly.
And then I want to circle back to what brought you to these
(05:30):
festivals and photographing these people.
But I think it's a big part of your story maybe, and you
mentioned it quite prominently in the book.
So do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
I love talking about Stan because he's no longer with us.
And when I was after, after I went to university, I went to
university in Australia and I came back to the US just because
(05:51):
I kind of thought, well, I'm going to change how everyone
thinks and share my international mindset.
And well, I didn't go very well,but I ended up in New York
assisting for Stan. He's a fashion photographer from
the like the 70s, eighties, 90s era.
And he was just an absolute inspiration.
(06:13):
But I, he really photographed the times in the sense that you
think of glamour and disco and, and, and everything that entails
in New York society. That's what he was about.
And he was working on his own coffee table book.
It was like a a retrospective ofhis life in some ways.
(06:33):
And it ended up being his swan song.
So unfortunately he passed away that the day he submitted the
last deadline for the book. Wow.
And you were you were his assistant and then turned into
someone who was caring for his work with his son Justin, who
also wrote the intro and a forward to your book that that
was really lovely. Yeah, I so I'm, I've always
(06:56):
maintained very close contact with his family and I we were
also what similar ages. So it was kind of as they were
growing up and becoming their own selves.
I was also then like, you know, developing as a adults and
professionally as well. So then we always maintain
contact after their father passed away.
(07:19):
And then I was asked, I think in2016 to come help them make a
show of the like The state wantsto make a show of his work in
San Francisco. It's Evergold Galleries.
And I helped curate and go through the whole technical
process with them and the photo editing, like in terms of
(07:39):
selection, which photographs that Stan felt were important.
And I felt very much like an advocate speaking his mind in
some ways because I, I, they're over and there are over
1,000,000 negatives in this collection.
So I am possibly the only human on earth who's seen all the
work. And it made it a very intimate
(08:01):
process to go through. And anyone that's I went through
photographs of a deceased person, you often feel like
you're having a conversation with that person.
And that's one of the beautiful points of photography.
But then I when you multiply that times the amount of work he
has and the fact that you want to produce it and share also
(08:22):
part of what links that to society and why it's relevant to
today, it becomes a very intenseprocess.
I can only imagine and yeah, it's, it's such a lovely people
don't know this about me, but I spent 10 years in advertising
and have a degree in photography.
And so I can really relate to that notion that if someone were
to go through the negatives and now it's digital files, right.
(08:45):
But I did shoot on film for a long time.
That's a really intimate process.
But also being a curator is an is not always the same skill as
being a photographer. And so the fact that you're able
to do both and I've had the experience of creating something
professionally from both points of view is really nice.
So I'm going to stop, I'm going to step back from geeking out
(09:06):
there. So Justin compared your work to
Irving Penn. And when I saw your work, I
agreed, but also a little bit. I really saw some of the work of
Diane Arbus as well as an influence from my own time.
Did you start out in portrait photography or is that
something? Is that the work you were doing
commercially when you were living in Australia?
(09:26):
In Australia I worked at a commercial firm called Acorn
Photo and they actually specialized in architecture
photography. So for a lot of my professional
life, I was having very different skill set in terms of
photography, but my passion has always been portraits and
people. And so then whenever I came
here, I, I really decided, well,I need to also think more about
(09:50):
what I'm excited about and not just what pays the bills and see
if I can combine those two aspects a bit more.
And that's how it, it kind of got started.
But Irving Penn was absolutely aa huge inspiration for the book.
He did a similar book back in the late 60s, Cold Worlds and
(10:11):
Small Room, which was about inviting people from all walks
of life, but everywhere from Papua New Guinea to San
Francisco. And I really felt that I wanted
to examine that, but through originality and creativity and
the place to find those now, which I believe to be festivals
(10:34):
and cultural gallons. Yeah.
And so, so I have this timeline,right.
You moved to Australia, it went to university, it moved back.
Thought you were going to changethings, found your work with
Stan in New York. I think there's a stopover in
Paris there that I'm missing. Oh yeah, I so one day I'm
(10:55):
working with Stan and then he says I'm moving to France with
my lover. And I thought, OK, well, I'm out
of a job. And then it was very quiet and
he's a very extroverted, very personal would say what was on
his mind. So I thought that was a bit odd.
And then he got to the end of the day and then he just said
no, that I really wanted to say like that's an invitation.
(11:16):
I want you to come to France with me and live in a barn and
we are going to finish my photo book.
And as AI think a 22 year old, that sounded like a fantastic
idea. Wow.
And so that was your second stopin a foreign country.
So from the US to Australia, back to the US, repatriating to
(11:39):
France to work with Stan and then back to the US or where did
you go from there? So then I, my now wife said you
need to get out of France because this book thing you're
doing was taking a very long time.
And so she came over and visitedand I while I was there and then
(12:00):
she ended up booking me a one way ticket to Australia and said
right, we're not doing this longdistancing anymore.
And that's just how I ended up back in Australia.
Also. I really wanted to go but.
And then I ended up started working there professionally and
then we just hung out there until I think 8 years later.
(12:20):
Timeline to me is a bit fuzzy but then in 2016 we almost at
the drop of a hat had a recommendation from a friend who
said hey you should check out Amsterdam, why don't you go to
Amsterdam to do your thing? And three days later we booked
one way tickets to Amsterdam andjust said if it doesn't work out
(12:42):
it could be a very expensive holiday.
Wow, I feel like that's so resonant with my own story.
But we came for a year, one way ticket and that.
Did you have you ever been here before?
You've been in France, but not maybe in Amsterdam.
Had you been here before? No, not at all.
And I did. I knew one person and he wasn't
(13:02):
even living here whenever I moved over.
So it was I, he was coming in a couple months later.
So he was like, oh, well, I'll get settled and then I'll get
some tips. But it was yeah, we.
So my wife told her she'd already been to Amsterdam once
when she was 19, but she said she'd seen like the middle of
(13:24):
the the town from basically where the station is just down
to the buying Corf area and justthis one St. more or less.
And then so when she came back, she said Amsterdam is massive.
I don't remember it, it's too big.
My gosh, so sight unseen, basically you moved here kind of
like me. I get it.
(13:45):
And that that impulse, I think is, is a strange and beautiful
impulse to just jump off a Cliff.
And a lot of people in our community have had that
experience. But before I moved here, I
hadn't met any of them. So I literally felt like a crazy
person. And I, I had three toddlers at
the time as well. So I didn't feel like an adult
(14:05):
and I didn't feel like a sane person, but I just knew I needed
to go. And so that I love that you had
a similar experience, maybe without the toddlers, but it was
a much bigger move from Australia to Amsterdam, so.
I think it was a different move.I don't think you could say
bigger or smaller because you have your own challenges with
(14:26):
three toddlers. I think for us it was more that
we moved with four suitcases or,or however much you can get on a
normal ticket and we we just can't end into a fully furnished
apartment for six months. But then we needed to find a
place and that ended up being a shell.
(14:47):
The second apartment. And I remember I so Matilda went
off to a family reunion while wemoved into the other place.
And I think for two weeks, all that we had in that apartment
was a towel and a pillow. I think I was waiting for IKEA
to deliver. But IKEA in the Netherlands in
delivery is a bit like, you know.
(15:08):
It's like being in Vegas figure.Yeah, and figuring out the
astrological clock on when they say they can deliver, which is
not anytime soon. So I I've been sitting waiting
on this delivery that kept beingdelayed on like, well, one day
I'll be sleeping in a little bit.
Yeah, we have similar. We came with only suitcases as
well. We had five of us, so it was a
lot of suitcases. But yeah, I get it.
(15:30):
And we slept on an air mattress for nearly six months.
So it is, it is a very funny story.
And it wasn't for any other reason besides we needed to
figure out how to live here because there are indeed those
things. So when you moved here, you had
to figure out maybe is this, wasthis a big transition in your
(15:50):
creative expression as well? Because you were working for an
architectural photography studioand now you could maybe focus on
your passions. What made you go to your first
festival and start photographing?
So the first one I went to, justprevious to that, I'd done a
like a sort of a little project with Lady Galore, who is one of
(16:13):
the major drag Queens in the Netherlands.
And they were doing A50 drag queen lip sync video.
And we made this little project that ended up getting in the
Design and architecture Museum in Rotterdam.
And just from that, they asked me, hey, do you want to come in
(16:37):
the Milkshake festival and take more photos?
And it just kind of was like, OK, well, I'll just start making
some more photos. But again, I was thinking really
about just these little individual portrait projects
that would boost My Portfolio. And it just very quickly turned
into, well, that invite turned into another invite.
And it grew organically for a long time.
(16:58):
And then I very much decided that I if I was going to
continue, that it needed to be on the world stage and not just
Amsterdam. Yeah, that makes sense.
And was that had you ever been to the festival before, like
yourself, as like a participant,or was this also you discovering
what it's like to be at a festival like this?
(17:19):
I think it was the first time I've been to festivals, let's
say like that because I went to plenty of places in Australia.
My very first gig as a photographer was, and this is
all the way back, I think, 2000 and six, 2007, that there was a
like an online magazine of some sort that they wanted photos of
(17:43):
all these gigs. And a friend of mine was a
journalist and she said, well, why don't you just sign up and
we'll do it together. And so we'd go off and
photograph these gigs and just take one photo that they were
going to use on the website. And that's how I got through the
last year of university with, you know, sort of doing odd jobs
like that. Yeah.
(18:03):
And I got to see a lot of cool festivals there.
That's amazing. See, it wasn't your first time,
so you kind of knew what to expect a little bit.
And so from there, this transformation.
So you're taking portraits, you're what did you start
noticing about this? Or maybe you came in with the
theory about how these identities form?
(18:27):
Because I imagine the process ofsomeone deciding to go to a
festival, creating their persona, whether or not it's
from scratch or one they use often.
Did you already have insight into that process or was that
something new for you? That was something completely
new to me and it was very much having the collective mass of of
(18:48):
the body of work that whenever Istarted joining a couple of
projects together and trying to look for a thread, one of the
first things I started to noticewas how it was so strongly
relates to community first and why, why that?
Why is that? And the fact that when you go to
(19:10):
a festival, it's something you've been looking forward to
all year potentially and you're there to see your friends and
you might not reconnect them with them again for another
year. And so I started thinking to
myself, that is a great place tophotograph people because then
they're really very relaxed. It's very personal to them and
(19:32):
they're also very extravagantly presented.
Yeah, it's probably the the onlyplace that adults dress up like
that, you know, besides Halloween, maybe in the States.
But we should go back and say each the, the, the book is a
book of portraits. So these people are dressed to
the nines in costumes, in personas, sometimes provocative,
(19:54):
sometimes just really they look like professionally decorated
or, you know, dressed up. They look like they've been to a
costumer. But for the most part, they're
self-made. Is that right?
For the most part, yes. There are a few exceptions, but
it meant that for me there was aclear criteria that I needed to
(20:18):
draft and and think about when I'm curating the places and that
the fashion is either self-made or it's community based where
people are performing in a trope.
So then they have dedicated costume designers.
I was very much excluding peoplethat were buying things from a
store and you could see it was store bought.
And when I have people that are with me to help me scout, that's
(20:41):
one of the things I say to them is all right, do you think that
is an amazing costume? I want you to find everyone that
you think is amazing and bring them back.
But make sure that you walk up to them to have a conversation
and really carefully look at thecostume and I what they have to
say. Because if it's just something
that they bought, it won't have as much meaning and and won't be
(21:04):
necessarily part of the project.Yeah.
And yeah, that is that's, it's so telling when someone puts
that much work into something that they're going to present
as. And so each portrait, and we're
going to show some of these in the video of people can see this
or you can see our website. Each portrait really is them
(21:25):
presenting them, their work to you and their persona.
Whether they're in. Are some of them in character or
is it mostly just them presenting this visual
representation? It's both in character and it is
themselves because I in order, Ithink to go on these journeys
that people also craft another persona, which is maybe a more
(21:48):
authentic version of themselves or they also want to enter a
fantasy, which is usually, you know, in theme of whatever the
event is that they want to embrace.
But there's also a third element, which is a cultural
element, which some of the places I've been to, for
example, carnivals, that people are just being characters that
(22:09):
is in part a parody of things going on or represents like even
like a Pagan ritual. That's they belong to a culture
that that this is what they follow, but it is a community of
based on that. Yeah, there's, there's a few in
there that are, you know, prettyrecognizable, but a few that
aren't. So there's like someone dressed
(22:30):
up as the devil, which is a controversial subject, right.
But and so, and then there's others that are you can see
there's a woman with feathers that has feathers in her hair
and a skull, I believe, like a skull of an animal.
And so you can see these themes being played with, or maybe
they're representing or maybe they're provoking something.
(22:52):
So there are several references to like religious or Pagan
things. And then there's the ones that
are just, they've made this character up from a combination
of references or their own imagination.
And say Burning Man is 1. You've been to.
It's kind of a celebration of the individual.
(23:14):
Be yourself, be, you know, off. We're out of society for for
these days. Do you find that is when
people's best character comes out?
Or do you think this is just them expressing something that
is latent inside? I think that is always going to
be a combination of those thingsbecause it really exists on the
(23:38):
spectrum for anyone of like why they're there.
And I've interviewed a lot of people to ask them this
question. And it's just, it's so based on,
you know, personal and case by case.
But within that, in defining like what it is that I'm
(24:01):
exploring radical self-expression, which is from
one of the principles from Burning Man, is certainly one
that has come up and helped define what what it is.
And that very much that this is the most unfiltered version of
who you are or who you want to present.
So taking off a filter is a big theme maybe?
(24:23):
Absolutely. Yeah, OK.
And when I was growing up, The funny thing about about Burning
Man is I grew up in Salt Lake City and a lot of people went to
Burning Man, but no one talked about going to Burning Man.
And so that has changed radically since I was a kid or
teenager into going to Burning Man.
Being a part of your entire personality.
(24:44):
And so for a place like the US, or maybe it's just my
perception, it's less, it's moreaccepted in a lot of circles to
go to these festivals now and again.
Maybe that's just my world view and it's always been that way.
Do you think that we, and maybe you can speak to where you're
from too? Do you think we're accepting
(25:06):
that there's multiple versions of ourselves because these
festivals have become more prominent or more plentiful, or
maybe more like yourself? People are bringing it out,
bringing the images out. What are your thoughts on that?
I think that it's been going on for hundreds of years because
there are plenty of other festivals like Carnival, which
(25:30):
writes at least 400 years. But I mean, you can without
going a lot into the history of of Carnival and then other Pagan
celebrations and mystery plays and different things that I
think I it has been going on, but that it's very much that.
And maybe it's not true, which is that Burning Man isn't the
(25:53):
studio 54 of our era. But I think because of that say
idea that we can look to that isa North star of of culture and
and and what's going on and thensay, well, because of that,
these things are happening. And maybe it was just that it
(26:13):
had to be something for our generation and this is what it
was. And then it's reflected in other
things. And I, I think it's certainly
helped though, that's through Burning Man and through other,
say, cultural zeitgeist that have happened in the last 15
years, that it's certainly become more widely accepted.
(26:37):
But I can't think of any other festival that has as many naked
people as pregnant so. As many you How many?
What kind of people? Naked people.
Naked people. Oh, yeah, Yeah.
And that when it first started, there was no social media.
And so I think that also helped.But what I wanted to ask you is,
is there any, ever, any, has there ever been any resistance
(26:58):
to you photographing these or publishing the photos by the
people that run the festivals? No, because step one is ensuring
that there will be no resistanceby inviting them as a
collaborator to I. First of all, I really need to
be very close to where the action is so that the people
(27:18):
don't have that far to walk. And it's I like for them it's
easy. And then I also need things like
electricity. But then it also means that
whenever it came to promoting the book and I crowdfunded it.
So then I was able to go back tothose venues and say, dear
collaborator, it's now ready to go into book form.
(27:40):
Would you please put me on your newsletter or whatever you want
to do? But you know, this is my
intention. And everyone was extremely
supportive. That's amazing.
So collaboration seems to be a really big part of how you
approach this. And so it feels like you're
collaborating with not only the individual and the community
(28:01):
that comes together, but with this idea of the overall arching
idea that people come together and have these gatherings that
are by definition temporary and by definition outlandish in some
way. And so my question for you is,
(28:21):
is that in coming up with the name Mayflies, is that how did
that bring all of your ideas together?
In the beginning, I had called this books overnight tribes and
it didn't feel like it stuck because a tribe was very much
something that you, you know, need to belong to and it's very
(28:43):
much a bit religious and that you're either in the tribe or
you're not. And in the 90s, this was of
course a big thing of find your tribe and and you know, you were
a goth or a hacker or well, I guess like a slacker, like like
all these things, all these labels.
And I really found that didn't work for this project, that it
(29:04):
was the opposite of labels. And then I still needed a name
for the book. I and I found this definition of
mayflies that I they come out once a year and they dance
across every available surface and then they go away and come
back again. And the people I photograph live
to celebrate one day a year. I mean, sometimes it is longer,
(29:27):
but the fact that they were justdancing across every available
surface really seemed to define where I was because I often felt
like there was no space for a photo shoot.
And in mayflies, they're an interesting winged in insect
insect because they're a lifespan, but also because in a
(29:48):
lot of people's heads, they havelike a dragonfly when you're
thinking of a may fly and they're like, oh, it's like kind
of purple wings. But actually a mayfly is a bit
unique. But it's also like a little bit
annoying that all the places I saw that have mayfly swarms,
they're like literally everywhere and they're just
living this glorious life for one day.
And that was a starting point onas the book was developing on
(30:12):
deciding, well, is this a mayflyplace?
Is this a place where people arereally living the life?
Yeah, and that looks different from festival to festival, but
they are living intentionally onpurpose for one day coming
together. In the case of Burning Man, it's
in terrible weather. In other festivals, maybe it's
(30:34):
against cultural, cultural norms.
But against all odds, they're coming together and living,
living to the fullest they can. And when you were coming up with
this name, do you feel like there's part of you that was
exploring that as well as an artist?
(30:54):
Because you were kind of constrained growing up in
Australia, You weren't from Australia and you're working in
architecture, which is not your favorite medium maybe or your
favorite thing to photograph. So is this an A way of you
exploring as an artist as well? 100% And I think the whole
(31:14):
process is also for me about letting go as an artist and just
accepting what is because as you're trained, especially in
commercial photography where people are like looking to read
out imperfections because you know, it needs to be a perfect
polished image. And I then letting go and then
(31:36):
saying, hey, if there are creases in the background,
that's just part of it because it turns out that it was very
windy that day. And I'm not going to pretend
that it is perfect. I did try to find this balance.
And then I think in letting go, I was able to actually have a
few things that remain behind. So in a couple of photos, you
might see leaves on the ground or in almost every photo, you
(31:59):
will see a wristband. If there was a wristband, I
didn't retouch it out. And that's the wristband from
the events. And most of them aren't very
nice or just, you know, pieces of plastic that I left there
intentional and said that you knew that it was from an event.
And that must have been really hard.
So we're seeing a lot of restraint when we see these
things, I have a feeling. Restraint and curation because I
(32:21):
photographed over 1000 people and in just a bookmaking
process, that's just part of what happens is need to, I think
of it like the rain first evaporate a whole bunch of
things into a giant cloud and the cloud of pictures is just
around. And when do you have enough to
(32:42):
make a book? Whenever it just starts raining
one day, because it's just the right conditions.
And to get the right conditions,you need also the right team
and, and to explore the right themes.
But I think then whenever you start the actual laying out the
book and that side of it, then actually the pairings and the
(33:03):
things, the strengths of the project naturally congeal
together. And you already know which
photos are powerful pictures, but then you have to link those
moments up. You need to find things that are
unique and that in a photo book also that there's no beginning
or an end off. Then you just need to be able to
pick it up and open it and, and go on a different journey,
(33:24):
hopefully every time, because I hope you don't pick it up and it
just lands in the same picture that then you can go backwards
or forwards. And and I think all of this is
through this whole process of ofcollecting.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that that the
process of making a book is a rigorous and interesting and
(33:45):
it's it's really hard to go through these things and pick
your favorites or pick the ones that maybe aren't your favorites
but that work as a book. Were there images in the book
that you absolutely had to have?Absolutely, yeah.
I think, though as I went on, there were pictures that I felt
(34:07):
strongly about. But then I, I had an editor who
very much had a very great collaborator say, he would put
forward ideas and say, well, what do you think about this?
And I'd say, well, you know, that's not my favorite idea, but
I am not really the type of person I like to say no.
So I would just let it sit. And I would realize by letting
(34:28):
it sit that there was so much strength to what he brought to
that. And then realizing that some
pictures that I felt strongly about were actually my own
personal connection to that moment.
And that that isn't what makes astrong picture sometimes that
that you have to kind of separate that out.
But they're definitely favorite photographs, and they ended up
(34:50):
in the book. Want to tell us which ones they
were? What's What's 2 that you you
wouldn't let go of? So one of them is a picture of a
fire performer I photographed atWasteland Party, which is a BDSM
festival in Amsterdam. And it was the first time I went
(35:11):
to a party. I was backstage.
And it was her first time there as a fire performer, but she
just had surgery the few days before.
So I didn't know this until after the fact because later she
told me we're still in contact. And she shared with me that she
had surgery the few days before.So her entire performance, she
(35:33):
was in agony. And then they say, go to this
photographer who's backstage, and she just has this, like,
look of vulnerability and different things that I can now
see. And I've always seen the
vulnerability, but now I know why.
And I feel like that's a specialmoment because for both of us,
it was our first time there and we have since gone on creative
(35:53):
journeys. And that's one.
And then another is a photo of alittle girl that I photographed
in Northern Macedonia at a Pagancarnival called the Johnny.
And it's an 800 year old carnival where people come
together for Pagan New Year. But she's actually dressed as a
(36:16):
Disney character male with the scents or what's that?
But and she just has this wisdombeyond her years.
She just looks like a fully grown adults in some ways, but
she's I think about 7 years old.But I feel she's very wise and
she was one of my translators while I was there, this 7 year
(36:38):
old girl speaking to everyone inMacedonia and then in English
for me. But I took a photo because she
was the daughter of the organizer.
And you know, that was very mucha gift to say thank you for all
the help. And I very quickly, as soon as
she got in front of the camera, I thought, this is a serious
picture. Yeah, I love what you said about
(37:01):
is this a great strong image or is it, am I in love with the
moment? That must be hard to separate.
And and probably part of the process of making this book was
and letting it out into the wild.
Is that right, that you're letting other people create
their own moments with these images?
And so it sounds like your collaboration was a good first
step to do that. It really was.
(37:21):
And I believe that it's important for any type of
collaboration to put your audience in the front, in the,
in the way that I, I believe first that I'm the person who's
there to showcase other people'screativity.
And I, I find it hard to get in front of the camera and talk to
people, but I do because their courage and their belief in
(37:45):
themselves gives me some belief in that, of what I'm doing and,
and that I want to share it. But also I think I have to think
about how to best get that message across.
And that's where I think that then I can really separate.
It is to say that like, this is not just a book about Darren,
(38:05):
this is a book about creative people and originality and that
these are really important messages.
And if I put that in the front, then it's much easier to
separate. Yeah.
And we didn't go over your process, but you and I, when we
were speaking earlier, did. So maybe you can share it with
everybody. This moment when people step in
front of your camera and kind oftransform.
(38:28):
Tell us, tell us how this happens over and over again.
It's kind of like the magic. And I'd love for you to give us
some insight into that. So to give you a little bit of
perspective and paint the picture is I this could my
studio exists anywhere where there is an event and this could
(38:48):
be a sidewalk where there's a carnival happening in a parade.
And I'm just there with this other studio and lights.
It could be backstage in a nightclub or it could be at
Burning Man suspended off of an art car.
And I'm there and I've collaborated with the organizers
(39:09):
to find what is what we think isthe best place that I can exist.
And I come with a few friends who are voluntold what to do.
And we embark on this adventure,which is just, we don't really
announce it anywhere that it just happens naturally.
We're just there with the photography background.
(39:29):
And we invite people to collaborate in an art project.
And if I'm asking you to help mefind people, I just say you
don't need to explain anything. Just wait until they're walking
with you. Just say you look amazing,
follow me, that's all you need to to say.
And then whenever they get to the art project, then it's an
experiential thing where they'resuddenly like, wow, this is here
(39:51):
and we have an interaction individually.
I I try to get people as long asI can.
I both in the physical aspect that how long do I have
photographed for? It could be 5 hours, it could be
two hours, could be 10 hours. Depends on what the parameters
are of the event. And we just photographed until
we get. Tired.
(40:12):
And then at some point the partygets a little out of control,
and that's pretty much when we decide when we're going to
leave. But it's just this whole kind of
thing that we do. Yeah, so this is an atmosphere
where you can say to someone youlook amazing, follow me.
Yeah, well, you really want to at least have them hear you and
(40:32):
say that. But they're there.
It's quite often that I'm even in places that are so, like,
loud and chaotic that it's like you tap them on the shoulder and
they're like, what? Teaching.
And you're like, like there. And then I've had to approach
some people a few times to get them to then go, let's go have a
cigarette. All right, Now I, this is what I
want to say to you. And then they're like, yeah, of
(40:54):
course. Yeah, let's go.
That's amazing. And and when they come in front
of the camera, that's a different kind of moment.
If you've just been in loud music, duh, duh.
Not maybe even in your own universe, not even caring if
you're seen and then you go to being hyper focused on that's a
real moment. I think that you're creating
(41:15):
there I. Hope so.
I mean, the, and the idea of coming with the backgrounds by
removing all the context of where they are, because you
already see and you think of thephotos of all festivals and it's
glorious and sun lids and peoplelaughing.
And, but if you take all of thataway and just focus on what is
so great and all the details within someone like their
(41:38):
expression, but also, of course,what they're wearing, and then
that becomes front and center and, and the story and my
connection to them, which is just about having a moment and
photographing them in this moment where they're at their
most comfortable. And, and sometimes they're not
that comfortable in front of thecamera.
(41:59):
But then it's just a price. Instead of taking a lot of
photos sometimes or sometimes first, we just hang out a bit
and chat and other people who were there like also, I don't
have a line. There's no like photo booth
aspect to it or I try to preventthat.
So it's, it's suddenly their line of people.
I have to say, I'm sorry, this is an art project.
(42:19):
It's not a photo booth. You can't pay for this.
I you can't line up either really.
So you just come back in a little while and I will try to
remember who we saw before in case you know, that way we can
prioritize you. But I, I really, I distress that
it's about the person who's there and, and, and having a
moment. Yeah.
(42:41):
What do you think the effect is on someone when they're chosen
and then photographed like that and then put into a book or to a
collection? That's a really alchemical
process in my opinion, But what do you think the effect is on on
that person? Well, I think that's I, I, I
(43:01):
don't know it it's that's a complicated one just by the fact
that. It's probably 10 questions,
honestly, so answer however you see fit.
But I also think then it has an effect on the audience as well.
So I think this this loop that you're creating of the way
you're approaching it, which is like selecting someone, bringing
them in, talking to them, that makes a big difference in the
(43:23):
effect it has also on the audience.
Well, I think because it's always to say, hey, we're
participating in an art project and you will get a copy of the
photo and I'm making this book. But explaining that all at once
is sometimes incoherent. And I've often tried to to make
to communicate that. So it's been really having
(43:45):
different points of contact where I touched base with them
to say, hey, that, you know, we're photographing you.
It's about the same. And then when they receive the
photos, I send out the like a community e-mail to everyone
that participated to say thank you so much.
You'll hear from me again and this later point.
So that at least is the conversation that continues and
that people then add me on Instagram and we continue
(44:08):
talking because this is how I get recommendations as well, is
that people say, Hey, have you heard of this event?
Here's some photos And then I got, Oh my God, this is amazing.
And it's it, it just becomes that they become then
collaborators in some way. But I've often, and I still try
(44:28):
to find new ways to make sure they engage with people so that
my intentions are really clear that like, hey, I want to create
art out of this and that you arethe art to some degree.
But also it is this whole process and it's about showing
this that I, I want them to be able to see themselves how I see
them. And then I also want them to see
(44:50):
each other so that then they seesay someone from Day of Dead in
Mexico looks at some like European festival and they go,
wow, like we are like one in thesame.
And that that is my goal of thiswhole collaborative process.
Yeah, So it's almost like a thread that runs around the
entire world and people who havethis, I don't do what you call
(45:12):
it an impulse or this gift. I mean, you can see it in many
ways, this offering, this impulse, this exchange of going
to these festivals, dressing up,creating these personas or
showing these personas or these sides of themselves, being in
front of a camera. That's the next step.
Because sometimes these events aren't photographed.
(45:33):
They're completely, you know, mostly anonymous.
But do you think there's some magic in them actually being
willing to share this with your project?
Yes, I, I believe that they are the magic and I, I try to go to
extraordinary links also just tomatch their intensity and their
level of what all the backgrounds are hand painted.
(45:55):
And I think that I can only amplify like their awesomeness.
And that's very much how the process like it's informed is,
is that I need to capture that magic.
That's a beautiful thing you've just said.
I think I try to match their intensity.
(46:16):
I love that because I think for me at least what I see in these
portraits is that they are. And in a way, you're trying to
catch a mayfly in a jar, right? You're you're actually catching
them, presenting them. It's probably never going to
happen again. It may never happen this way
again. And that's a really a beautiful
(46:36):
idea. But then be sharing it with
others, creating community around it, showing that's
there's more people around the world like this.
It makes the world seem a littlemore friendly.
I think that that's necessary inthe times we live in to not only
feel connected, but to understand that there's this
(46:59):
desire as well as they're like, these places exist, but there's
also this impulse to just for humans to come together and
celebrate together. And, and when that happens,
naturally, they also are created.
And it comes out, even if you think of like a toddler's
birthday party, that then someone puts on a silly hat and,
and runs around and that's it. It's it's important, I think,
(47:25):
for us to recognize that this ispart of humanity is to celebrate
and to create. When I first saw your book, I
imagined for some reason, someone who has always wanted to
go to a festival but never had the courage that they get to
actually experience what it might be like to be to have
(47:45):
their their desires reflected inthese portraits.
Because it's not a large amount of people that go to these are
are do these sorts of things. And so I really for some reason
had this image of someone who maybe grew up like you or I that
sees your book and maybe either moves to another place because
(48:06):
they feel like they feel isolated and they figure out
there's these people like them or they're able to feel a little
more at home in their weirdness.And so I think for me, that's
what that evoked is this I this opportunity to be able to see
something you wouldn't otherwisebe able to see or participate
(48:27):
in. I think that there's definitely
that cabinet of curiosities and that you don't have to want to
go to these places to experiencethe photographs and enjoy them.
And that I, I certainly hope that it does evoke curiosity,
that maybe it's something that you think I, well, maybe I
should check that out or something similar that then you
(48:49):
have now just another point of reference and another reason why
you should. I think also, I think that that
is like beneath the surface in terms of what you could read
into it, because I think if I say that's my mission, then it,
it kind of takes away the power of that, that I think that it's
(49:12):
part of the art and it's, it's definitely one thing that I want
to inspire, but it's, I have to be very restrained and to say
that this is, you know, what I what I expect.
Yeah, of course. And the other thing I wanted to
say about the work is that when I I flipped through without
reading any of the titles as just a first visual read, and I
(49:33):
went deep because I was selecting, I was trying to
select some photos that we woulduse for House of Peregrine.
But when I went through, I was very surprised that a few of
these were a BDSM festival. I know that sounds funny, but
the provocative nature of what they're wearing is not it.
What comes to 1st is their humanity and that I think is
(49:55):
neither good or bad. But it was surprising to me that
that I couldn't tell what the festival was or what it was
about by what they're wearing. That is deliberate and on my
part, which is that if you thinkof BDSM festivals and pictures,
they tend to be hypersexualized.And I, I, I just wanted to take
(50:15):
away from that element and just also to say that because a lot
of the times they are like dressed in thousands, like the
outfits are worth thousands of dollars.
And as soon as you really focus on that, that then also you're
in a fashion element. And, and so I very much saw that
the humanity and just that they like, love being here and that
(50:36):
they come from people come from all walks of life to do any of
these events. So the reality is that some
people might be, I don't know, like a real estate agent or an
accountant and they're still at all of these different events.
And that is immaterial because at one stage I was actually
collecting like information and interviewing the people, like
(50:58):
photographs that were going to be in the book.
I tried to just go, well, what is the line?
And, you know, is this interesting?
And in the end, I decided to exclude all of that information
and just leave it is the photographs with the byline of
where it is. Because the only thing that
matters is that you see their humanity and you see the
connection that they have in that moment that we share.
(51:19):
And the rest? There's a of course a bit more
text in the back, but the rest is for you to construct your own
narrative inside yourself, what you find interesting and to look
into. Yeah, that definitely comes
through. So bravo.
But I I was struck by that because I think, I think the
images speak for themselves in their they're provocative
(51:40):
because not because of what the person's wearing, but because
the level of vulnerability that has been expressed through human
contact. And that's any great portrait
photographer. I'm also a very yeah, I'm, I'm a
geek and a connoisseur of portraits.
So the one of the other things Iwanted to ask you was about your
(52:03):
intention, like how this all weaves together as part of your
experience as a foreigner now for most of your adult life.
How do you see that weaving intothis work?
I think that that starts with having an international mindset,
just the way that I went from a very small town in Virginia to
(52:27):
Australia and I went to Perth, which was a city of 2 million
people so suddenly, and that's not a very good city.
But still to me that felt like an infinitely large city where I
was then in a student village hanging out with international
people. And that investment alone has
been a free Airbnb for differentcouches around the world now.
(52:51):
And part of this project, in fact, is visiting some of those
people. But I think all of that really
began whenever I started as an international student.
And then it it. You just can't unturn that page.
Which is why I'm always trying to find them for international
(53:11):
life, because you, you don't outgrow the place.
Nobody understands your experience when you go back.
And so that's why we use Peregrine, because peregrines
can live on any continent of theworld, but it means outsider.
I think that, I mean, as you said that like you can't compare
(53:32):
your experience and you can't goback and I, I think that that's
absolutely what I realized through my experiences.
Did that make you feel lonely when you move back?
I think so. I think that I didn't realize
that that it made me feel lonelybecause I, I just had this
(53:53):
desire to continue to learn and to grow and I, I wasn't finding
that same. Level of intensity.
People were not meeting you in your level of intensity.
Well, maybe it's intensity, maybe it's, it's just curiosity
because I, I really just love talking and having conversations
(54:13):
with people that have completelydifferent backgrounds and, and
learning something new from that.
And I think that the US is a place that it's so big that you
can just continue to do your ownthing and and you have an
experience, which is that you think that, you know, everything
(54:34):
in your surrounding is just how things are.
And the rest of the world turns out operates in a completely
different way. You know, they're kilometers and
then they're miles and then there's Fahrenheit in Celsius.
And that that is just, it continues.
Yeah. And I think that's a really good
insight, is that if your bubble is so big, you think that's the
(54:55):
whole world. Yeah, and I feel like whenever
you see another bubble, then you, you suddenly you're just
looking at it from another pointof view.
You know, it's it's, it's just that you can't go back into the
old one because I, you yourself have changed and people change
(55:16):
and grow at a different rate. And I see it with my friends
back home and my family that they have their own lives and
their own experiences. And the experiences that you get
whenever you're overseas, you just grow exponentially.
It all just happens very quickly.
Yeah, it's like you're expandingin all directions at once.
(55:37):
Yeah, and you're having to adapta whole other culture and rule
set every, everything. And then you find what works
with you and from that as well. And you're, I feel like it's
very much you have the luxury topick up from different cultures
at that point of which rules youyou want to follow and what you
(55:58):
believe because you suddenly seethat there are different value
systems and it's hard to preparethe Netherlands.
Yeah, I always say there's a cult in every culture.
And then you you see your the cults you're from, and then you
just start making your own religion.
I, I think that that's exactly how it goes is that you have to
(56:20):
constantly, I think search within yourself and in the
beginning especially to, to really go like, am I crazy?
Like, like people do this. And then you, you have to get a
lot of detective skills and, andreally understand people's
motives and their way of operating and then realize that
(56:41):
you were the person that they are probably thinking, ah,
they're acting a bit strange. Yeah.
And I. Yeah.
And I think that in a way it makes you, like you said, a
detective. And so you're always observing
it. It makes you live life a
different way and from a different perspective.
And, and now the effect it's hadon me is I never actually hold
(57:03):
an opinion very strongly. I never did before, but now it's
worse. So nothing is sacred now I, I
hold very things sacred, but I think and hope in a good way.
But living, creating a life fromscratch or a worldview or a
perspective is a very interesting process, one that
(57:24):
you have to actually be ready for.
I think the last thing I wanted to ask you about is you have a
daughter and she's being raised now in the Netherlands.
Is that right? Was she born here?
Yes, so she was born just after the tail end of COVID so that
it's that was one of our concerns one of the thing at
finding kids. So then as soon as it it felt
like it was possible from us, for us, we had Thea and she's
(57:48):
three years old. She is Dutch, American and
Australian. And it's really great to see
that language acquisition from like someone who's been learning
2 languages because she gets full time Dutch at daycare.
We also speak a bit of Dutch to her, which you're not.
(58:09):
You're told you're not supposed to do really because they cannot
confuse people with different accents and and also if your
grammar isn't perfect. But my wife is also a linguist,
so she's very tuned in on like the language learning process.
Yeah, and for me at least, maybeit's the same for you.
(58:29):
I feel kind of happy that I mean, that nowhere is perfect,
but if you went to school with blue hair in the Netherlands,
people would barely even look atyou.
Like that's a problem. Do you find that comforting that
she's growing up somewhere whereshe can be more a little bit
more self expressed perhaps? I think in all avenues I feel
more comfortable that she's growing up here.
(58:52):
And I mean, first, the there areno guns in schools like you have
in the US. That's like one thing that I, I
forget about it and then I have to be so grateful for every time
I read the news. But I think for me, it's also
just the fact that sex educationis just part of education here,
and it starts actually in kindergarten.
(59:12):
And that's she has maybe a more healthy attitude towards
sexuality and respecting other people's boundaries and other
aspects of being an adult that Ithink a lot of us get when we're
like teenagers, that it's just part of the education system.
(59:35):
Yeah, and what about your partner?
She grew up in Australia. Yes, she's from Perth and I had
lived there almost her whole life.
It was only through traveling that we had left.
She lived for a little while in France as an au pair and when we
moved here is her first big timemoving abroad.
But we had differing points of view in the beginning that she
(59:58):
thought that, well, we could do it for a year and if it didn't
work out then it would just be going back to Australia.
But. I very much thought, well,
there's a lot of confirmation bias in our world.
And after a year, people would go, oh, well, you know, that's
about what they expected. So I was determined to just make
it stick for a little while longer at least.
(01:00:20):
And but also to reassess, to constantly say like, I mean, I
think we did say, all right, after six months, we were going
to make sure that we didn't hateit after a year.
And then it became every. I think from that we said, OK,
year 2, let's not check in aboutit.
Let's go to year three and then at Year 5.
But by that time, we had alreadybought an apartment and really
(01:00:42):
felt settled. But it was more that double
confirmation ago. OK, now that we went to the
incredibly complicated house buying process here, how do we
feel about that? Yeah.
And that's important because especially when you're both my
partner and me as well, we, we, we're neither of us are from
here. So it really is that decision to
stay in a place over and over again.
(01:01:04):
It's like recommitting to a longterm partnership, recommitting
to a plate place over and over again.
IA 100% agree with that sentiment because I also think
that I constantly go to other places and go could I live here
and Amsterdam is the only place that I've ever left.
(01:01:24):
And when I'm not just on holidays, but like a way for a
job that I think I really miss being there.
I miss the convenience and the people and a lot of things.
I don't ever miss the weather, but you can't have everything.
You can't have everything. Yeah, there's compromises no
matter what kind of relationshipyou're in, but hopefully you're
(01:01:45):
making the right ones and havingthat love affair with the place
and a long term commitment. For me at least, it's always
been. It's been strange that I don't
have any roots here, but that itjust suits my values, suits the
way I want to live. And of course that's a luxury in
life, but I think that it's alsopart of a journey that's really
important. At least it has been for my
(01:02:06):
family, for generational healing, for a lot of different
things. And so I love that that process
mirrors a little bit, I think maybe the process some of these
people going to these festivals go to where they're expressing
something, having it be seen, having it be validated, have it
be on display, having a portraitof themselves as this.
(01:02:30):
That process is, is really, I mean, fun, but also healing
others for themselves could be that it's cathartic, but also
they're healing a lot of things or expressing a lot of things,
which I think is a really beautiful part of being human.
I think that that's why I did myadventure and and you summarized
(01:02:54):
everything beautifully. Well, I think that's the
residence I see between your project and House of Peregrine
and what I'm trying to do. And so it's really just really
fun to meet a fellow traveler who is sees the world similarly.
And so I'm really, I'm happy that we get to interact with
your work a little bit deeper this year.
I'm very happy about that. And also for me, it's another
(01:03:17):
experience connecting with people who would say like minded
and that they've traveled to another place and they're
experiencing it. It doesn't matter for how long
because nothing is for forever. And so in the check insurance
that you we were talking about, that's certainly one thing that
is discussed in my family is like, hey, we still love it, but
(01:03:37):
nothing is for forever. So let's just enjoy the time we
have together and connect with people as many as we can on a
deeper level hopefully. And and then when one day we
just decide to go somewhere else, that's also fun.
Yeah, the sense of impermanence really is on full display when
you live abroad and lesser A lesser degree when you're at a
(01:03:59):
festival because it's only for one day or five days or however
long. But there is this impending
sense of impermanence that is actually part of everyday life
of living in a different country, even if you live there
till the day you die. I think that impermanence, that
that awareness of impermanence is, is part of the gig.
And so I think that's it's something I love bringing people
(01:04:20):
together around. I think that it's yeah, it it's
a great thing to have a community around because I as
soon as that you see this idea that where you live doesn't have
to be where you're always are going to live, it is it's, it's
a paradigm shift. And I just through other
(01:04:41):
conversations, I feel like everytime I meet someone and start
talking about this is it, then they have another experience in
another country that it just rings true, but in a very
different way. I just came back from a holiday
in Singapore and of course talked to a couple people who
live there is, I guess you couldsay expats, which I, I don't
(01:05:01):
know, the term never connects with me.
I think maybe I'm an immigrant or I often say citizen of the
world because I've I've moved now a few times.
Darren, you're a Peregrine. Just own it.
Peregrine. All right, I'm a peregrine.
No, but that's why we we use peregrine because expat never
worked for me immigrant. I didn't know if I was here
forever or if I was staying for very long.
(01:05:24):
I just knew I needed to be whereI needed to be during a certain
time. And that impulse is, I think
potentially this is my theory, innate.
And so some people have it and some people don't.
Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with either and.
I'm so jealous actually of people who have the ability to
stay in one place their whole life.
(01:05:45):
I am. But I think it's the one thing
that in terms of my own life that I want to look back and
then say that guy, he just got everything out of everything
that he could. He just milked it all.
He just was on all the places that were really great and just
saw so many things. And going back to Stan's work,
(01:06:06):
this is one of the things that Ireally always hits home whenever
I see his work in in a part of that collection is to to see
someone's life unfold. And that way you really realize
the impermanence of like where we are in time and that there
are also people that see time a different way.
And that's why I think impermanence really works for me
(01:06:29):
is. Yeah, I think that's a really
good place to wrap up. I'm really excited to bring
people your work and actually give them the chance if to to
meet you, to interact with your work, to buy your book.
We'll have an event coming up where people can meet you and
ask all the questions they want.For now.
(01:06:49):
If people can't see you in person, where can they find out
more about your work, Where can they follow you?
All these sorts of things. So my Instagram is Mayfly's book
and that's also my website, mayfliesbook.com that has a bit
more about my creative journey and well, of course you will see
(01:07:09):
photos there too. Perfect.
And I believe if I'm not mistaken, we will have the book
in the House Peregrine Marketplace later this year and
you'll be able to follow along with our journey of what we're
doing with mayflies this year atHouse of Bear grind.com.
I'd like to thank everyone for joining us today and please
(01:07:32):
follow along at houseofperegrine.com or follow
us on all of the social media handles at houseofperegrine.com
podcast. I am super grateful for Darren
and all of you for joining me and we'll see you next time.
Thanks for having me. OK, that's it for today.
I hope you've enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on
(01:07:52):
living internationally, join us at houseofperegrine.com to find
out how you can connect with ourcommunity.
Let's craft our life story with intention, together.
Hi, I'm Mikkel Weber, founder and auteur of House of
Peregrine. Expat, immigrant, pioneer.
None of these were a fit, but Peregrine describes what we are
all about perfectly, those that craft their life story with
intention. I've spent the last six years in
awe of the life changing connections and stories I've
(00:23):
experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this
adventure to be recognized, celebrated, and elevated to the
life stage that it is. Through these interviews, I hope
to connect those living internationally more deeply to
both the place they are living and with themselves and those
around them. We cover everything from
international finances and meaning making to global
(00:46):
parenting and relationships to make your time abroad more
intentional, edifying, and full of beauty.
Find us at houseofperegrine.com where you can find more ways to
connect with the ethos of Peregrine.
I hope you enjoy today's guest. Let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome backto the House of Peregrine
podcast. I'm Michael Weber, and today I'm
(01:08):
excited to bring you American photographer Darren Smith, who
is our 20252026 Artist of the Year for House of Peregrine.
His most recent work, Mayflies, is what we'll be exploring this
year as a community at House of Peregrine.
I just happen to have it right here.
It's a beautiful, beautiful bookfull of images of people who are
(01:30):
coming together for very short amounts of time that are life
changing and are really special.Think Burning Man or Day of the
Dead. These are festivals that people
come together and they create new versions of themselves and
find belonging, which I think resonates deeply with the
experience of being from abroad.So join us this year as we
(01:54):
celebrate this work. We go deep with it and meet
Darren today. We are talking to him and going
deep on his work, his past and his life as a Peregrine.
I really hope you enjoy it. Welcome Darren.
I am so glad that you have joined us today.
How are you doing? I want to just first point out
your beautiful pink headphones that you have gifted us with
(02:16):
today. So we'll talk about that in a
second, but I really want you tostart by introducing yourself
and your book Mayflice. I'm Darren Smith and I grew up
in a small town in Virginia and when I turned 19 I decided it
would be a great idea to go to university in Australia, just
completely on the opposite side of the world.
(02:38):
As one does. Yeah, exactly.
And it was through that curiosity and international
mindset that I, when I later moved to Amsterdam, I started
just photographing the nightlifehere and discovering what I love
about the city and the freedom and identity, the the ability to
(03:00):
be who you want to be. That really inspired me to set
out around the world and discover places where people can
freely express themselves. And so the place I grew up,
yeah, it was also kind of in within that Satanic panic
comments and. I don't know about the Satanic
Panic moment. All right, so that was in the
(03:22):
like 80s, early 90s when, you know, the idea of sex, drugs and
rock'n'roll, these are all gateways to Satanism.
And that you played the record backwards.
That's that was, you know, goingto put you down the wrong path,
so to speak. So I tried to get away from that
(03:43):
as far as possible, because it was just a place where in
growing up you really felt that your own identity was somewhat
constrained within society's parameters.
Just had a really strict code ofconduct where you grew up.
Absolutely. And it wasn't say like
completely religious based. It was just a societal fears
(04:04):
around that time of gang violence and drugs in the early
90s in the US and I think for small towns that fear was very
real and I very much didn't wantto be a part of that.
Yeah. Interesting.
So were you a like a weird kid that had to kind of, I say
(04:24):
weird, like I love weird people,so this is a compliment.
But were you like having to kindof tamp down things that you
wanted to try or things you wanted to express while you were
growing up? Absolutely.
I remember I had blue hair and then I got called into the
principal's office and then theywere just like, look, we need to
have a, a talk about your attitude and like, well, what
(04:47):
attitude, you know, well, we seethat you're going through some
changes right now. Yes, have blue hair.
And so that was alarming where you grew up to have blue hair.
Yeah, well, that exactly. If that is what is alarming, I
really wonder what they think ofmy book so.
Yeah, I, I, I hope, I hope that things have changed a bit.
(05:10):
But let's, let's talk about yourbook in a second.
I wanted to 1st, it's mentioned quite prominently and I think
it's a big part of your life that you were working with Stan
Schaefer at the beginning of your career.
And so I wonder if you could tell us that story quickly.
And then I want to circle back to what brought you to these
(05:30):
festivals and photographing these people.
But I think it's a big part of your story maybe, and you
mentioned it quite prominently in the book.
So do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
I love talking about Stan because he's no longer with us.
And when I was after, after I went to university, I went to
university in Australia and I came back to the US just because
(05:51):
I kind of thought, well, I'm going to change how everyone
thinks and share my international mindset.
And well, I didn't go very well,but I ended up in New York
assisting for Stan. He's a fashion photographer from
the like the 70s, eighties, 90s era.
And he was just an absolute inspiration.
(06:13):
But I, he really photographed the times in the sense that you
think of glamour and disco and, and, and everything that entails
in New York society. That's what he was about.
And he was working on his own coffee table book.
It was like a a retrospective ofhis life in some ways.
(06:33):
And it ended up being his swan song.
So unfortunately he passed away that the day he submitted the
last deadline for the book. Wow.
And you were you were his assistant and then turned into
someone who was caring for his work with his son Justin, who
also wrote the intro and a forward to your book that that
was really lovely. Yeah, I so I'm, I've always
(06:56):
maintained very close contact with his family and I we were
also what similar ages. So it was kind of as they were
growing up and becoming their own selves.
I was also then like, you know, developing as a adults and
professionally as well. So then we always maintain
contact after their father passed away.
(07:19):
And then I was asked, I think in2016 to come help them make a
show of the like The state wantsto make a show of his work in
San Francisco. It's Evergold Galleries.
And I helped curate and go through the whole technical
process with them and the photo editing, like in terms of
(07:39):
selection, which photographs that Stan felt were important.
And I felt very much like an advocate speaking his mind in
some ways because I, I, they're over and there are over
1,000,000 negatives in this collection.
So I am possibly the only human on earth who's seen all the
work. And it made it a very intimate
(08:01):
process to go through. And anyone that's I went through
photographs of a deceased person, you often feel like
you're having a conversation with that person.
And that's one of the beautiful points of photography.
But then I when you multiply that times the amount of work he
has and the fact that you want to produce it and share also
(08:22):
part of what links that to society and why it's relevant to
today, it becomes a very intenseprocess.
I can only imagine and yeah, it's, it's such a lovely people
don't know this about me, but I spent 10 years in advertising
and have a degree in photography.
And so I can really relate to that notion that if someone were
to go through the negatives and now it's digital files, right.
(08:45):
But I did shoot on film for a long time.
That's a really intimate process.
But also being a curator is an is not always the same skill as
being a photographer. And so the fact that you're able
to do both and I've had the experience of creating something
professionally from both points of view is really nice.
So I'm going to stop, I'm going to step back from geeking out
(09:06):
there. So Justin compared your work to
Irving Penn. And when I saw your work, I
agreed, but also a little bit. I really saw some of the work of
Diane Arbus as well as an influence from my own time.
Did you start out in portrait photography or is that
something? Is that the work you were doing
commercially when you were living in Australia?
(09:26):
In Australia I worked at a commercial firm called Acorn
Photo and they actually specialized in architecture
photography. So for a lot of my professional
life, I was having very different skill set in terms of
photography, but my passion has always been portraits and
people. And so then whenever I came
here, I, I really decided, well,I need to also think more about
(09:50):
what I'm excited about and not just what pays the bills and see
if I can combine those two aspects a bit more.
And that's how it, it kind of got started.
But Irving Penn was absolutely aa huge inspiration for the book.
He did a similar book back in the late 60s, Cold Worlds and
(10:11):
Small Room, which was about inviting people from all walks
of life, but everywhere from Papua New Guinea to San
Francisco. And I really felt that I wanted
to examine that, but through originality and creativity and
the place to find those now, which I believe to be festivals
(10:34):
and cultural gallons. Yeah.
And so, so I have this timeline,right.
You moved to Australia, it went to university, it moved back.
Thought you were going to changethings, found your work with
Stan in New York. I think there's a stopover in
Paris there that I'm missing. Oh yeah, I so one day I'm
(10:55):
working with Stan and then he says I'm moving to France with
my lover. And I thought, OK, well, I'm out
of a job. And then it was very quiet and
he's a very extroverted, very personal would say what was on
his mind. So I thought that was a bit odd.
And then he got to the end of the day and then he just said
no, that I really wanted to say like that's an invitation.
(11:16):
I want you to come to France with me and live in a barn and
we are going to finish my photo book.
And as AI think a 22 year old, that sounded like a fantastic
idea. Wow.
And so that was your second stopin a foreign country.
So from the US to Australia, back to the US, repatriating to
(11:39):
France to work with Stan and then back to the US or where did
you go from there? So then I, my now wife said you
need to get out of France because this book thing you're
doing was taking a very long time.
And so she came over and visitedand I while I was there and then
(12:00):
she ended up booking me a one way ticket to Australia and said
right, we're not doing this longdistancing anymore.
And that's just how I ended up back in Australia.
Also. I really wanted to go but.
And then I ended up started working there professionally and
then we just hung out there until I think 8 years later.
(12:20):
Timeline to me is a bit fuzzy but then in 2016 we almost at
the drop of a hat had a recommendation from a friend who
said hey you should check out Amsterdam, why don't you go to
Amsterdam to do your thing? And three days later we booked
one way tickets to Amsterdam andjust said if it doesn't work out
(12:42):
it could be a very expensive holiday.
Wow, I feel like that's so resonant with my own story.
But we came for a year, one way ticket and that.
Did you have you ever been here before?
You've been in France, but not maybe in Amsterdam.
Had you been here before? No, not at all.
And I did. I knew one person and he wasn't
(13:02):
even living here whenever I moved over.
So it was I, he was coming in a couple months later.
So he was like, oh, well, I'll get settled and then I'll get
some tips. But it was yeah, we.
So my wife told her she'd already been to Amsterdam once
when she was 19, but she said she'd seen like the middle of
(13:24):
the the town from basically where the station is just down
to the buying Corf area and justthis one St. more or less.
And then so when she came back, she said Amsterdam is massive.
I don't remember it, it's too big.
My gosh, so sight unseen, basically you moved here kind of
like me. I get it.
(13:45):
And that that impulse, I think is, is a strange and beautiful
impulse to just jump off a Cliff.
And a lot of people in our community have had that
experience. But before I moved here, I
hadn't met any of them. So I literally felt like a crazy
person. And I, I had three toddlers at
the time as well. So I didn't feel like an adult
(14:05):
and I didn't feel like a sane person, but I just knew I needed
to go. And so that I love that you had
a similar experience, maybe without the toddlers, but it was
a much bigger move from Australia to Amsterdam, so.
I think it was a different move.I don't think you could say
bigger or smaller because you have your own challenges with
(14:26):
three toddlers. I think for us it was more that
we moved with four suitcases or,or however much you can get on a
normal ticket and we we just can't end into a fully furnished
apartment for six months. But then we needed to find a
place and that ended up being a shell.
(14:47):
The second apartment. And I remember I so Matilda went
off to a family reunion while wemoved into the other place.
And I think for two weeks, all that we had in that apartment
was a towel and a pillow. I think I was waiting for IKEA
to deliver. But IKEA in the Netherlands in
delivery is a bit like, you know.
(15:08):
It's like being in Vegas figure.Yeah, and figuring out the
astrological clock on when they say they can deliver, which is
not anytime soon. So I I've been sitting waiting
on this delivery that kept beingdelayed on like, well, one day
I'll be sleeping in a little bit.
Yeah, we have similar. We came with only suitcases as
well. We had five of us, so it was a
lot of suitcases. But yeah, I get it.
(15:30):
And we slept on an air mattress for nearly six months.
So it is, it is a very funny story.
And it wasn't for any other reason besides we needed to
figure out how to live here because there are indeed those
things. So when you moved here, you had
to figure out maybe is this, wasthis a big transition in your
(15:50):
creative expression as well? Because you were working for an
architectural photography studioand now you could maybe focus on
your passions. What made you go to your first
festival and start photographing?
So the first one I went to, justprevious to that, I'd done a
like a sort of a little project with Lady Galore, who is one of
(16:13):
the major drag Queens in the Netherlands.
And they were doing A50 drag queen lip sync video.
And we made this little project that ended up getting in the
Design and architecture Museum in Rotterdam.
And just from that, they asked me, hey, do you want to come in
(16:37):
the Milkshake festival and take more photos?
And it just kind of was like, OK, well, I'll just start making
some more photos. But again, I was thinking really
about just these little individual portrait projects
that would boost My Portfolio. And it just very quickly turned
into, well, that invite turned into another invite.
And it grew organically for a long time.
(16:58):
And then I very much decided that I if I was going to
continue, that it needed to be on the world stage and not just
Amsterdam. Yeah, that makes sense.
And was that had you ever been to the festival before, like
yourself, as like a participant,or was this also you discovering
what it's like to be at a festival like this?
(17:19):
I think it was the first time I've been to festivals, let's
say like that because I went to plenty of places in Australia.
My very first gig as a photographer was, and this is
all the way back, I think, 2000 and six, 2007, that there was a
like an online magazine of some sort that they wanted photos of
(17:43):
all these gigs. And a friend of mine was a
journalist and she said, well, why don't you just sign up and
we'll do it together. And so we'd go off and
photograph these gigs and just take one photo that they were
going to use on the website. And that's how I got through the
last year of university with, you know, sort of doing odd jobs
like that. Yeah.
(18:03):
And I got to see a lot of cool festivals there.
That's amazing. See, it wasn't your first time,
so you kind of knew what to expect a little bit.
And so from there, this transformation.
So you're taking portraits, you're what did you start
noticing about this? Or maybe you came in with the
theory about how these identities form?
(18:27):
Because I imagine the process ofsomeone deciding to go to a
festival, creating their persona, whether or not it's
from scratch or one they use often.
Did you already have insight into that process or was that
something new for you? That was something completely
new to me and it was very much having the collective mass of of
(18:48):
the body of work that whenever Istarted joining a couple of
projects together and trying to look for a thread, one of the
first things I started to noticewas how it was so strongly
relates to community first and why, why that?
Why is that? And the fact that when you go to
(19:10):
a festival, it's something you've been looking forward to
all year potentially and you're there to see your friends and
you might not reconnect them with them again for another
year. And so I started thinking to
myself, that is a great place tophotograph people because then
they're really very relaxed. It's very personal to them and
(19:32):
they're also very extravagantly presented.
Yeah, it's probably the the onlyplace that adults dress up like
that, you know, besides Halloween, maybe in the States.
But we should go back and say each the, the, the book is a
book of portraits. So these people are dressed to
the nines in costumes, in personas, sometimes provocative,
(19:54):
sometimes just really they look like professionally decorated
or, you know, dressed up. They look like they've been to a
costumer. But for the most part, they're
self-made. Is that right?
For the most part, yes. There are a few exceptions, but
it meant that for me there was aclear criteria that I needed to
(20:18):
draft and and think about when I'm curating the places and that
the fashion is either self-made or it's community based where
people are performing in a trope.
So then they have dedicated costume designers.
I was very much excluding peoplethat were buying things from a
store and you could see it was store bought.
And when I have people that are with me to help me scout, that's
(20:41):
one of the things I say to them is all right, do you think that
is an amazing costume? I want you to find everyone that
you think is amazing and bring them back.
But make sure that you walk up to them to have a conversation
and really carefully look at thecostume and I what they have to
say. Because if it's just something
that they bought, it won't have as much meaning and and won't be
(21:04):
necessarily part of the project.Yeah.
And yeah, that is that's, it's so telling when someone puts
that much work into something that they're going to present
as. And so each portrait, and we're
going to show some of these in the video of people can see this
or you can see our website. Each portrait really is them
(21:25):
presenting them, their work to you and their persona.
Whether they're in. Are some of them in character or
is it mostly just them presenting this visual
representation? It's both in character and it is
themselves because I in order, Ithink to go on these journeys
that people also craft another persona, which is maybe a more
(21:48):
authentic version of themselves or they also want to enter a
fantasy, which is usually, you know, in theme of whatever the
event is that they want to embrace.
But there's also a third element, which is a cultural
element, which some of the places I've been to, for
example, carnivals, that people are just being characters that
(22:09):
is in part a parody of things going on or represents like even
like a Pagan ritual. That's they belong to a culture
that that this is what they follow, but it is a community of
based on that. Yeah, there's, there's a few in
there that are, you know, prettyrecognizable, but a few that
aren't. So there's like someone dressed
(22:30):
up as the devil, which is a controversial subject, right.
But and so, and then there's others that are you can see
there's a woman with feathers that has feathers in her hair
and a skull, I believe, like a skull of an animal.
And so you can see these themes being played with, or maybe
they're representing or maybe they're provoking something.
(22:52):
So there are several references to like religious or Pagan
things. And then there's the ones that
are just, they've made this character up from a combination
of references or their own imagination.
And say Burning Man is 1. You've been to.
It's kind of a celebration of the individual.
(23:14):
Be yourself, be, you know, off. We're out of society for for
these days. Do you find that is when
people's best character comes out?
Or do you think this is just them expressing something that
is latent inside? I think that is always going to
be a combination of those thingsbecause it really exists on the
(23:38):
spectrum for anyone of like why they're there.
And I've interviewed a lot of people to ask them this
question. And it's just, it's so based on,
you know, personal and case by case.
But within that, in defining like what it is that I'm
(24:01):
exploring radical self-expression, which is from
one of the principles from Burning Man, is certainly one
that has come up and helped define what what it is.
And that very much that this is the most unfiltered version of
who you are or who you want to present.
So taking off a filter is a big theme maybe?
(24:23):
Absolutely. Yeah, OK.
And when I was growing up, The funny thing about about Burning
Man is I grew up in Salt Lake City and a lot of people went to
Burning Man, but no one talked about going to Burning Man.
And so that has changed radically since I was a kid or
teenager into going to Burning Man.
Being a part of your entire personality.
(24:44):
And so for a place like the US, or maybe it's just my
perception, it's less, it's moreaccepted in a lot of circles to
go to these festivals now and again.
Maybe that's just my world view and it's always been that way.
Do you think that we, and maybe you can speak to where you're
from too? Do you think we're accepting
(25:06):
that there's multiple versions of ourselves because these
festivals have become more prominent or more plentiful, or
maybe more like yourself? People are bringing it out,
bringing the images out. What are your thoughts on that?
I think that it's been going on for hundreds of years because
there are plenty of other festivals like Carnival, which
(25:30):
writes at least 400 years. But I mean, you can without
going a lot into the history of of Carnival and then other Pagan
celebrations and mystery plays and different things that I
think I it has been going on, but that it's very much that.
And maybe it's not true, which is that Burning Man isn't the
(25:53):
studio 54 of our era. But I think because of that say
idea that we can look to that isa North star of of culture and
and and what's going on and thensay, well, because of that,
these things are happening. And maybe it was just that it
(26:13):
had to be something for our generation and this is what it
was. And then it's reflected in other
things. And I, I think it's certainly
helped though, that's through Burning Man and through other,
say, cultural zeitgeist that have happened in the last 15
years, that it's certainly become more widely accepted.
(26:37):
But I can't think of any other festival that has as many naked
people as pregnant so. As many you How many?
What kind of people? Naked people.
Naked people. Oh, yeah, Yeah.
And that when it first started, there was no social media.
And so I think that also helped.But what I wanted to ask you is,
is there any, ever, any, has there ever been any resistance
(26:58):
to you photographing these or publishing the photos by the
people that run the festivals? No, because step one is ensuring
that there will be no resistanceby inviting them as a
collaborator to I. First of all, I really need to
be very close to where the action is so that the people
(27:18):
don't have that far to walk. And it's I like for them it's
easy. And then I also need things like
electricity. But then it also means that
whenever it came to promoting the book and I crowdfunded it.
So then I was able to go back tothose venues and say, dear
collaborator, it's now ready to go into book form.
(27:40):
Would you please put me on your newsletter or whatever you want
to do? But you know, this is my
intention. And everyone was extremely
supportive. That's amazing.
So collaboration seems to be a really big part of how you
approach this. And so it feels like you're
collaborating with not only the individual and the community
(28:01):
that comes together, but with this idea of the overall arching
idea that people come together and have these gatherings that
are by definition temporary and by definition outlandish in some
way. And so my question for you is,
(28:21):
is that in coming up with the name Mayflies, is that how did
that bring all of your ideas together?
In the beginning, I had called this books overnight tribes and
it didn't feel like it stuck because a tribe was very much
something that you, you know, need to belong to and it's very
(28:43):
much a bit religious and that you're either in the tribe or
you're not. And in the 90s, this was of
course a big thing of find your tribe and and you know, you were
a goth or a hacker or well, I guess like a slacker, like like
all these things, all these labels.
And I really found that didn't work for this project, that it
(29:04):
was the opposite of labels. And then I still needed a name
for the book. I and I found this definition of
mayflies that I they come out once a year and they dance
across every available surface and then they go away and come
back again. And the people I photograph live
to celebrate one day a year. I mean, sometimes it is longer,
(29:27):
but the fact that they were justdancing across every available
surface really seemed to define where I was because I often felt
like there was no space for a photo shoot.
And in mayflies, they're an interesting winged in insect
insect because they're a lifespan, but also because in a
(29:48):
lot of people's heads, they havelike a dragonfly when you're
thinking of a may fly and they're like, oh, it's like kind
of purple wings. But actually a mayfly is a bit
unique. But it's also like a little bit
annoying that all the places I saw that have mayfly swarms,
they're like literally everywhere and they're just
living this glorious life for one day.
And that was a starting point onas the book was developing on
(30:12):
deciding, well, is this a mayflyplace?
Is this a place where people arereally living the life?
Yeah, and that looks different from festival to festival, but
they are living intentionally onpurpose for one day coming
together. In the case of Burning Man, it's
in terrible weather. In other festivals, maybe it's
(30:34):
against cultural, cultural norms.
But against all odds, they're coming together and living,
living to the fullest they can. And when you were coming up with
this name, do you feel like there's part of you that was
exploring that as well as an artist?
(30:54):
Because you were kind of constrained growing up in
Australia, You weren't from Australia and you're working in
architecture, which is not your favorite medium maybe or your
favorite thing to photograph. So is this an A way of you
exploring as an artist as well? 100% And I think the whole
(31:14):
process is also for me about letting go as an artist and just
accepting what is because as you're trained, especially in
commercial photography where people are like looking to read
out imperfections because you know, it needs to be a perfect
polished image. And I then letting go and then
(31:36):
saying, hey, if there are creases in the background,
that's just part of it because it turns out that it was very
windy that day. And I'm not going to pretend
that it is perfect. I did try to find this balance.
And then I think in letting go, I was able to actually have a
few things that remain behind. So in a couple of photos, you
might see leaves on the ground or in almost every photo, you
(31:59):
will see a wristband. If there was a wristband, I
didn't retouch it out. And that's the wristband from
the events. And most of them aren't very
nice or just, you know, pieces of plastic that I left there
intentional and said that you knew that it was from an event.
And that must have been really hard.
So we're seeing a lot of restraint when we see these
things, I have a feeling. Restraint and curation because I
(32:21):
photographed over 1000 people and in just a bookmaking
process, that's just part of what happens is need to, I think
of it like the rain first evaporate a whole bunch of
things into a giant cloud and the cloud of pictures is just
around. And when do you have enough to
(32:42):
make a book? Whenever it just starts raining
one day, because it's just the right conditions.
And to get the right conditions,you need also the right team
and, and to explore the right themes.
But I think then whenever you start the actual laying out the
book and that side of it, then actually the pairings and the
(33:03):
things, the strengths of the project naturally congeal
together. And you already know which
photos are powerful pictures, but then you have to link those
moments up. You need to find things that are
unique and that in a photo book also that there's no beginning
or an end off. Then you just need to be able to
pick it up and open it and, and go on a different journey,
(33:24):
hopefully every time, because I hope you don't pick it up and it
just lands in the same picture that then you can go backwards
or forwards. And and I think all of this is
through this whole process of ofcollecting.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that that the
process of making a book is a rigorous and interesting and
(33:45):
it's it's really hard to go through these things and pick
your favorites or pick the ones that maybe aren't your favorites
but that work as a book. Were there images in the book
that you absolutely had to have?Absolutely, yeah.
I think, though as I went on, there were pictures that I felt
(34:07):
strongly about. But then I, I had an editor who
very much had a very great collaborator say, he would put
forward ideas and say, well, what do you think about this?
And I'd say, well, you know, that's not my favorite idea, but
I am not really the type of person I like to say no.
So I would just let it sit. And I would realize by letting
(34:28):
it sit that there was so much strength to what he brought to
that. And then realizing that some
pictures that I felt strongly about were actually my own
personal connection to that moment.
And that that isn't what makes astrong picture sometimes that
that you have to kind of separate that out.
But they're definitely favorite photographs, and they ended up
(34:50):
in the book. Want to tell us which ones they
were? What's What's 2 that you you
wouldn't let go of? So one of them is a picture of a
fire performer I photographed atWasteland Party, which is a BDSM
festival in Amsterdam. And it was the first time I went
(35:11):
to a party. I was backstage.
And it was her first time there as a fire performer, but she
just had surgery the few days before.
So I didn't know this until after the fact because later she
told me we're still in contact. And she shared with me that she
had surgery the few days before.So her entire performance, she
(35:33):
was in agony. And then they say, go to this
photographer who's backstage, and she just has this, like,
look of vulnerability and different things that I can now
see. And I've always seen the
vulnerability, but now I know why.
And I feel like that's a specialmoment because for both of us,
it was our first time there and we have since gone on creative
(35:53):
journeys. And that's one.
And then another is a photo of alittle girl that I photographed
in Northern Macedonia at a Pagancarnival called the Johnny.
And it's an 800 year old carnival where people come
together for Pagan New Year. But she's actually dressed as a
(36:16):
Disney character male with the scents or what's that?
But and she just has this wisdombeyond her years.
She just looks like a fully grown adults in some ways, but
she's I think about 7 years old.But I feel she's very wise and
she was one of my translators while I was there, this 7 year
(36:38):
old girl speaking to everyone inMacedonia and then in English
for me. But I took a photo because she
was the daughter of the organizer.
And you know, that was very mucha gift to say thank you for all
the help. And I very quickly, as soon as
she got in front of the camera, I thought, this is a serious
picture. Yeah, I love what you said about
(37:01):
is this a great strong image or is it, am I in love with the
moment? That must be hard to separate.
And and probably part of the process of making this book was
and letting it out into the wild.
Is that right, that you're letting other people create
their own moments with these images?
And so it sounds like your collaboration was a good first
step to do that. It really was.
(37:21):
And I believe that it's important for any type of
collaboration to put your audience in the front, in the,
in the way that I, I believe first that I'm the person who's
there to showcase other people'screativity.
And I, I find it hard to get in front of the camera and talk to
people, but I do because their courage and their belief in
(37:45):
themselves gives me some belief in that, of what I'm doing and,
and that I want to share it. But also I think I have to think
about how to best get that message across.
And that's where I think that then I can really separate.
It is to say that like, this is not just a book about Darren,
(38:05):
this is a book about creative people and originality and that
these are really important messages.
And if I put that in the front, then it's much easier to
separate. Yeah.
And we didn't go over your process, but you and I, when we
were speaking earlier, did. So maybe you can share it with
everybody. This moment when people step in
front of your camera and kind oftransform.
(38:28):
Tell us, tell us how this happens over and over again.
It's kind of like the magic. And I'd love for you to give us
some insight into that. So to give you a little bit of
perspective and paint the picture is I this could my
studio exists anywhere where there is an event and this could
(38:48):
be a sidewalk where there's a carnival happening in a parade.
And I'm just there with this other studio and lights.
It could be backstage in a nightclub or it could be at
Burning Man suspended off of an art car.
And I'm there and I've collaborated with the organizers
(39:09):
to find what is what we think isthe best place that I can exist.
And I come with a few friends who are voluntold what to do.
And we embark on this adventure,which is just, we don't really
announce it anywhere that it just happens naturally.
We're just there with the photography background.
(39:29):
And we invite people to collaborate in an art project.
And if I'm asking you to help mefind people, I just say you
don't need to explain anything. Just wait until they're walking
with you. Just say you look amazing,
follow me, that's all you need to to say.
And then whenever they get to the art project, then it's an
experiential thing where they'resuddenly like, wow, this is here
(39:51):
and we have an interaction individually.
I I try to get people as long asI can.
I both in the physical aspect that how long do I have
photographed for? It could be 5 hours, it could be
two hours, could be 10 hours. Depends on what the parameters
are of the event. And we just photographed until
we get. Tired.
(40:12):
And then at some point the partygets a little out of control,
and that's pretty much when we decide when we're going to
leave. But it's just this whole kind of
thing that we do. Yeah, so this is an atmosphere
where you can say to someone youlook amazing, follow me.
Yeah, well, you really want to at least have them hear you and
(40:32):
say that. But they're there.
It's quite often that I'm even in places that are so, like,
loud and chaotic that it's like you tap them on the shoulder and
they're like, what? Teaching.
And you're like, like there. And then I've had to approach
some people a few times to get them to then go, let's go have a
cigarette. All right, Now I, this is what I
want to say to you. And then they're like, yeah, of
(40:54):
course. Yeah, let's go.
That's amazing. And and when they come in front
of the camera, that's a different kind of moment.
If you've just been in loud music, duh, duh.
Not maybe even in your own universe, not even caring if
you're seen and then you go to being hyper focused on that's a
real moment. I think that you're creating
(41:15):
there I. Hope so.
I mean, the, and the idea of coming with the backgrounds by
removing all the context of where they are, because you
already see and you think of thephotos of all festivals and it's
glorious and sun lids and peoplelaughing.
And, but if you take all of thataway and just focus on what is
so great and all the details within someone like their
(41:38):
expression, but also, of course,what they're wearing, and then
that becomes front and center and, and the story and my
connection to them, which is just about having a moment and
photographing them in this moment where they're at their
most comfortable. And, and sometimes they're not
that comfortable in front of thecamera.
(41:59):
But then it's just a price. Instead of taking a lot of
photos sometimes or sometimes first, we just hang out a bit
and chat and other people who were there like also, I don't
have a line. There's no like photo booth
aspect to it or I try to preventthat.
So it's, it's suddenly their line of people.
I have to say, I'm sorry, this is an art project.
(42:19):
It's not a photo booth. You can't pay for this.
I you can't line up either really.
So you just come back in a little while and I will try to
remember who we saw before in case you know, that way we can
prioritize you. But I, I really, I distress that
it's about the person who's there and, and, and having a
moment. Yeah.
(42:41):
What do you think the effect is on someone when they're chosen
and then photographed like that and then put into a book or to a
collection? That's a really alchemical
process in my opinion, But what do you think the effect is on on
that person? Well, I think that's I, I, I
(43:01):
don't know it it's that's a complicated one just by the fact
that. It's probably 10 questions,
honestly, so answer however you see fit.
But I also think then it has an effect on the audience as well.
So I think this this loop that you're creating of the way
you're approaching it, which is like selecting someone, bringing
them in, talking to them, that makes a big difference in the
(43:23):
effect it has also on the audience.
Well, I think because it's always to say, hey, we're
participating in an art project and you will get a copy of the
photo and I'm making this book. But explaining that all at once
is sometimes incoherent. And I've often tried to to make
to communicate that. So it's been really having
(43:45):
different points of contact where I touched base with them
to say, hey, that, you know, we're photographing you.
It's about the same. And then when they receive the
photos, I send out the like a community e-mail to everyone
that participated to say thank you so much.
You'll hear from me again and this later point.
So that at least is the conversation that continues and
that people then add me on Instagram and we continue
(44:08):
talking because this is how I get recommendations as well, is
that people say, Hey, have you heard of this event?
Here's some photos And then I got, Oh my God, this is amazing.
And it's it, it just becomes that they become then
collaborators in some way. But I've often, and I still try
(44:28):
to find new ways to make sure they engage with people so that
my intentions are really clear that like, hey, I want to create
art out of this and that you arethe art to some degree.
But also it is this whole process and it's about showing
this that I, I want them to be able to see themselves how I see
them. And then I also want them to see
(44:50):
each other so that then they seesay someone from Day of Dead in
Mexico looks at some like European festival and they go,
wow, like we are like one in thesame.
And that that is my goal of thiswhole collaborative process.
Yeah, So it's almost like a thread that runs around the
entire world and people who havethis, I don't do what you call
(45:12):
it an impulse or this gift. I mean, you can see it in many
ways, this offering, this impulse, this exchange of going
to these festivals, dressing up,creating these personas or
showing these personas or these sides of themselves, being in
front of a camera. That's the next step.
Because sometimes these events aren't photographed.
(45:33):
They're completely, you know, mostly anonymous.
But do you think there's some magic in them actually being
willing to share this with your project?
Yes, I, I believe that they are the magic and I, I try to go to
extraordinary links also just tomatch their intensity and their
level of what all the backgrounds are hand painted.
(45:55):
And I think that I can only amplify like their awesomeness.
And that's very much how the process like it's informed is,
is that I need to capture that magic.
That's a beautiful thing you've just said.
I think I try to match their intensity.
(46:16):
I love that because I think for me at least what I see in these
portraits is that they are. And in a way, you're trying to
catch a mayfly in a jar, right? You're you're actually catching
them, presenting them. It's probably never going to
happen again. It may never happen this way
again. And that's a really a beautiful
(46:36):
idea. But then be sharing it with
others, creating community around it, showing that's
there's more people around the world like this.
It makes the world seem a littlemore friendly.
I think that that's necessary inthe times we live in to not only
feel connected, but to understand that there's this
(46:59):
desire as well as they're like, these places exist, but there's
also this impulse to just for humans to come together and
celebrate together. And, and when that happens,
naturally, they also are created.
And it comes out, even if you think of like a toddler's
birthday party, that then someone puts on a silly hat and,
and runs around and that's it. It's it's important, I think,
(47:25):
for us to recognize that this ispart of humanity is to celebrate
and to create. When I first saw your book, I
imagined for some reason, someone who has always wanted to
go to a festival but never had the courage that they get to
actually experience what it might be like to be to have
(47:45):
their their desires reflected inthese portraits.
Because it's not a large amount of people that go to these are
are do these sorts of things. And so I really for some reason
had this image of someone who maybe grew up like you or I that
sees your book and maybe either moves to another place because
(48:06):
they feel like they feel isolated and they figure out
there's these people like them or they're able to feel a little
more at home in their weirdness.And so I think for me, that's
what that evoked is this I this opportunity to be able to see
something you wouldn't otherwisebe able to see or participate
(48:27):
in. I think that there's definitely
that cabinet of curiosities and that you don't have to want to
go to these places to experiencethe photographs and enjoy them.
And that I, I certainly hope that it does evoke curiosity,
that maybe it's something that you think I, well, maybe I
should check that out or something similar that then you
(48:49):
have now just another point of reference and another reason why
you should. I think also, I think that that
is like beneath the surface in terms of what you could read
into it, because I think if I say that's my mission, then it,
it kind of takes away the power of that, that I think that it's
(49:12):
part of the art and it's, it's definitely one thing that I want
to inspire, but it's, I have to be very restrained and to say
that this is, you know, what I what I expect.
Yeah, of course. And the other thing I wanted to
say about the work is that when I I flipped through without
reading any of the titles as just a first visual read, and I
(49:33):
went deep because I was selecting, I was trying to
select some photos that we woulduse for House of Peregrine.
But when I went through, I was very surprised that a few of
these were a BDSM festival. I know that sounds funny, but
the provocative nature of what they're wearing is not it.
What comes to 1st is their humanity and that I think is
(49:55):
neither good or bad. But it was surprising to me that
that I couldn't tell what the festival was or what it was
about by what they're wearing. That is deliberate and on my
part, which is that if you thinkof BDSM festivals and pictures,
they tend to be hypersexualized.And I, I, I just wanted to take
(50:15):
away from that element and just also to say that because a lot
of the times they are like dressed in thousands, like the
outfits are worth thousands of dollars.
And as soon as you really focus on that, that then also you're
in a fashion element. And, and so I very much saw that
the humanity and just that they like, love being here and that
(50:36):
they come from people come from all walks of life to do any of
these events. So the reality is that some
people might be, I don't know, like a real estate agent or an
accountant and they're still at all of these different events.
And that is immaterial because at one stage I was actually
collecting like information and interviewing the people, like
(50:58):
photographs that were going to be in the book.
I tried to just go, well, what is the line?
And, you know, is this interesting?
And in the end, I decided to exclude all of that information
and just leave it is the photographs with the byline of
where it is. Because the only thing that
matters is that you see their humanity and you see the
connection that they have in that moment that we share.
(51:19):
And the rest? There's a of course a bit more
text in the back, but the rest is for you to construct your own
narrative inside yourself, what you find interesting and to look
into. Yeah, that definitely comes
through. So bravo.
But I I was struck by that because I think, I think the
images speak for themselves in their they're provocative
(51:40):
because not because of what the person's wearing, but because
the level of vulnerability that has been expressed through human
contact. And that's any great portrait
photographer. I'm also a very yeah, I'm, I'm a
geek and a connoisseur of portraits.
So the one of the other things Iwanted to ask you was about your
(52:03):
intention, like how this all weaves together as part of your
experience as a foreigner now for most of your adult life.
How do you see that weaving intothis work?
I think that that starts with having an international mindset,
just the way that I went from a very small town in Virginia to
(52:27):
Australia and I went to Perth, which was a city of 2 million
people so suddenly, and that's not a very good city.
But still to me that felt like an infinitely large city where I
was then in a student village hanging out with international
people. And that investment alone has
been a free Airbnb for differentcouches around the world now.
(52:51):
And part of this project, in fact, is visiting some of those
people. But I think all of that really
began whenever I started as an international student.
And then it it. You just can't unturn that page.
Which is why I'm always trying to find them for international
(53:11):
life, because you, you don't outgrow the place.
Nobody understands your experience when you go back.
And so that's why we use Peregrine, because peregrines
can live on any continent of theworld, but it means outsider.
I think that, I mean, as you said that like you can't compare
(53:32):
your experience and you can't goback and I, I think that that's
absolutely what I realized through my experiences.
Did that make you feel lonely when you move back?
I think so. I think that I didn't realize
that that it made me feel lonelybecause I, I just had this
(53:53):
desire to continue to learn and to grow and I, I wasn't finding
that same. Level of intensity.
People were not meeting you in your level of intensity.
Well, maybe it's intensity, maybe it's, it's just curiosity
because I, I really just love talking and having conversations
(54:13):
with people that have completelydifferent backgrounds and, and
learning something new from that.
And I think that the US is a place that it's so big that you
can just continue to do your ownthing and and you have an
experience, which is that you think that, you know, everything
(54:34):
in your surrounding is just how things are.
And the rest of the world turns out operates in a completely
different way. You know, they're kilometers and
then they're miles and then there's Fahrenheit in Celsius.
And that that is just, it continues.
Yeah. And I think that's a really good
insight, is that if your bubble is so big, you think that's the
(54:55):
whole world. Yeah, and I feel like whenever
you see another bubble, then you, you suddenly you're just
looking at it from another pointof view.
You know, it's it's, it's just that you can't go back into the
old one because I, you yourself have changed and people change
(55:16):
and grow at a different rate. And I see it with my friends
back home and my family that they have their own lives and
their own experiences. And the experiences that you get
whenever you're overseas, you just grow exponentially.
It all just happens very quickly.
Yeah, it's like you're expandingin all directions at once.
(55:37):
Yeah, and you're having to adapta whole other culture and rule
set every, everything. And then you find what works
with you and from that as well. And you're, I feel like it's
very much you have the luxury topick up from different cultures
at that point of which rules youyou want to follow and what you
(55:58):
believe because you suddenly seethat there are different value
systems and it's hard to preparethe Netherlands.
Yeah, I always say there's a cult in every culture.
And then you you see your the cults you're from, and then you
just start making your own religion.
I, I think that that's exactly how it goes is that you have to
(56:20):
constantly, I think search within yourself and in the
beginning especially to, to really go like, am I crazy?
Like, like people do this. And then you, you have to get a
lot of detective skills and, andreally understand people's
motives and their way of operating and then realize that
(56:41):
you were the person that they are probably thinking, ah,
they're acting a bit strange. Yeah.
And I. Yeah.
And I think that in a way it makes you, like you said, a
detective. And so you're always observing
it. It makes you live life a
different way and from a different perspective.
And, and now the effect it's hadon me is I never actually hold
(57:03):
an opinion very strongly. I never did before, but now it's
worse. So nothing is sacred now I, I
hold very things sacred, but I think and hope in a good way.
But living, creating a life fromscratch or a worldview or a
perspective is a very interesting process, one that
(57:24):
you have to actually be ready for.
I think the last thing I wanted to ask you about is you have a
daughter and she's being raised now in the Netherlands.
Is that right? Was she born here?
Yes, so she was born just after the tail end of COVID so that
it's that was one of our concerns one of the thing at
finding kids. So then as soon as it it felt
like it was possible from us, for us, we had Thea and she's
(57:48):
three years old. She is Dutch, American and
Australian. And it's really great to see
that language acquisition from like someone who's been learning
2 languages because she gets full time Dutch at daycare.
We also speak a bit of Dutch to her, which you're not.
(58:09):
You're told you're not supposed to do really because they cannot
confuse people with different accents and and also if your
grammar isn't perfect. But my wife is also a linguist,
so she's very tuned in on like the language learning process.
Yeah, and for me at least, maybeit's the same for you.
(58:29):
I feel kind of happy that I mean, that nowhere is perfect,
but if you went to school with blue hair in the Netherlands,
people would barely even look atyou.
Like that's a problem. Do you find that comforting that
she's growing up somewhere whereshe can be more a little bit
more self expressed perhaps? I think in all avenues I feel
more comfortable that she's growing up here.
(58:52):
And I mean, first, the there areno guns in schools like you have
in the US. That's like one thing that I, I
forget about it and then I have to be so grateful for every time
I read the news. But I think for me, it's also
just the fact that sex educationis just part of education here,
and it starts actually in kindergarten.
(59:12):
And that's she has maybe a more healthy attitude towards
sexuality and respecting other people's boundaries and other
aspects of being an adult that Ithink a lot of us get when we're
like teenagers, that it's just part of the education system.
(59:35):
Yeah, and what about your partner?
She grew up in Australia. Yes, she's from Perth and I had
lived there almost her whole life.
It was only through traveling that we had left.
She lived for a little while in France as an au pair and when we
moved here is her first big timemoving abroad.
But we had differing points of view in the beginning that she
(59:58):
thought that, well, we could do it for a year and if it didn't
work out then it would just be going back to Australia.
But. I very much thought, well,
there's a lot of confirmation bias in our world.
And after a year, people would go, oh, well, you know, that's
about what they expected. So I was determined to just make
it stick for a little while longer at least.
(01:00:20):
And but also to reassess, to constantly say like, I mean, I
think we did say, all right, after six months, we were going
to make sure that we didn't hateit after a year.
And then it became every. I think from that we said, OK,
year 2, let's not check in aboutit.
Let's go to year three and then at Year 5.
But by that time, we had alreadybought an apartment and really
(01:00:42):
felt settled. But it was more that double
confirmation ago. OK, now that we went to the
incredibly complicated house buying process here, how do we
feel about that? Yeah.
And that's important because especially when you're both my
partner and me as well, we, we, we're neither of us are from
here. So it really is that decision to
stay in a place over and over again.
(01:01:04):
It's like recommitting to a longterm partnership, recommitting
to a plate place over and over again.
IA 100% agree with that sentiment because I also think
that I constantly go to other places and go could I live here
and Amsterdam is the only place that I've ever left.
(01:01:24):
And when I'm not just on holidays, but like a way for a
job that I think I really miss being there.
I miss the convenience and the people and a lot of things.
I don't ever miss the weather, but you can't have everything.
You can't have everything. Yeah, there's compromises no
matter what kind of relationshipyou're in, but hopefully you're
(01:01:45):
making the right ones and havingthat love affair with the place
and a long term commitment. For me at least, it's always
been. It's been strange that I don't
have any roots here, but that itjust suits my values, suits the
way I want to live. And of course that's a luxury in
life, but I think that it's alsopart of a journey that's really
important. At least it has been for my
(01:02:06):
family, for generational healing, for a lot of different
things. And so I love that that process
mirrors a little bit, I think maybe the process some of these
people going to these festivals go to where they're expressing
something, having it be seen, having it be validated, have it
be on display, having a portraitof themselves as this.
(01:02:30):
That process is, is really, I mean, fun, but also healing
others for themselves could be that it's cathartic, but also
they're healing a lot of things or expressing a lot of things,
which I think is a really beautiful part of being human.
I think that that's why I did myadventure and and you summarized
(01:02:54):
everything beautifully. Well, I think that's the
residence I see between your project and House of Peregrine
and what I'm trying to do. And so it's really just really
fun to meet a fellow traveler who is sees the world similarly.
And so I'm really, I'm happy that we get to interact with
your work a little bit deeper this year.
I'm very happy about that. And also for me, it's another
(01:03:17):
experience connecting with people who would say like minded
and that they've traveled to another place and they're
experiencing it. It doesn't matter for how long
because nothing is for forever. And so in the check insurance
that you we were talking about, that's certainly one thing that
is discussed in my family is like, hey, we still love it, but
(01:03:37):
nothing is for forever. So let's just enjoy the time we
have together and connect with people as many as we can on a
deeper level hopefully. And and then when one day we
just decide to go somewhere else, that's also fun.
Yeah, the sense of impermanence really is on full display when
you live abroad and lesser A lesser degree when you're at a
(01:03:59):
festival because it's only for one day or five days or however
long. But there is this impending
sense of impermanence that is actually part of everyday life
of living in a different country, even if you live there
till the day you die. I think that impermanence, that
that awareness of impermanence is, is part of the gig.
And so I think that's it's something I love bringing people
(01:04:20):
together around. I think that it's yeah, it it's
a great thing to have a community around because I as
soon as that you see this idea that where you live doesn't have
to be where you're always are going to live, it is it's, it's
a paradigm shift. And I just through other
(01:04:41):
conversations, I feel like everytime I meet someone and start
talking about this is it, then they have another experience in
another country that it just rings true, but in a very
different way. I just came back from a holiday
in Singapore and of course talked to a couple people who
live there is, I guess you couldsay expats, which I, I don't
(01:05:01):
know, the term never connects with me.
I think maybe I'm an immigrant or I often say citizen of the
world because I've I've moved now a few times.
Darren, you're a Peregrine. Just own it.
Peregrine. All right, I'm a peregrine.
No, but that's why we we use peregrine because expat never
worked for me immigrant. I didn't know if I was here
forever or if I was staying for very long.
(01:05:24):
I just knew I needed to be whereI needed to be during a certain
time. And that impulse is, I think
potentially this is my theory, innate.
And so some people have it and some people don't.
Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with either and.
I'm so jealous actually of people who have the ability to
stay in one place their whole life.
(01:05:45):
I am. But I think it's the one thing
that in terms of my own life that I want to look back and
then say that guy, he just got everything out of everything
that he could. He just milked it all.
He just was on all the places that were really great and just
saw so many things. And going back to Stan's work,
(01:06:06):
this is one of the things that Ireally always hits home whenever
I see his work in in a part of that collection is to to see
someone's life unfold. And that way you really realize
the impermanence of like where we are in time and that there
are also people that see time a different way.
And that's why I think impermanence really works for me
(01:06:29):
is. Yeah, I think that's a really
good place to wrap up. I'm really excited to bring
people your work and actually give them the chance if to to
meet you, to interact with your work, to buy your book.
We'll have an event coming up where people can meet you and
ask all the questions they want.For now.
(01:06:49):
If people can't see you in person, where can they find out
more about your work, Where can they follow you?
All these sorts of things. So my Instagram is Mayfly's book
and that's also my website, mayfliesbook.com that has a bit
more about my creative journey and well, of course you will see
(01:07:09):
photos there too. Perfect.
And I believe if I'm not mistaken, we will have the book
in the House Peregrine Marketplace later this year and
you'll be able to follow along with our journey of what we're
doing with mayflies this year atHouse of Bear grind.com.
I'd like to thank everyone for joining us today and please
(01:07:32):
follow along at houseofperegrine.com or follow
us on all of the social media handles at houseofperegrine.com
podcast. I am super grateful for Darren
and all of you for joining me and we'll see you next time.
Thanks for having me. OK, that's it for today.
I hope you've enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on
(01:07:52):
living internationally, join us at houseofperegrine.com to find
out how you can connect with ourcommunity.
Let's craft our life story with intention, together.
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