Illegalized: Undocumented Success - Rafael Martinez - How Do You Say Success in Spanglish?

Episode Transcript
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Raul Lopez (00:05):
This is Raul Lopez, and you're listening to.
How Do you Save Success inSpanglish?
The path to success isn't easyFor minorities and people of
color.
Many attempt this journey withlittle to no guidance.
Join me as I sit down withindividuals who share their
stories of perseverance so thattogether we can learn how to
save success in Spanglish.
What's good, mijente?

(00:26):
It's your boy, raul, welcomeback.
This is how Do you Say Successin Spanglish?
Today, my guest is RafaelMartinez.
How's it going, raf?
It's going well.
Thank you for having me in theshow.
Oh, of course, man, thank youso much for joining me and
looking forward to be able totalk more about your journey and

(00:46):
get some insight on the lifethat is.
You know, that is your life.
So, to kind of start off, justto give a little background,
rafael Martinez is an assistantprofessor of Southwest
Borderlands in the College ofIntegrated Sciences and Arts at
ASU and arts At ASU he teachescourses on the American

(01:09):
Southwest, arizona history, theUS-Mexican borderlands and
transborder Chicano literature.
Rafael is also a programfaculty for the MA Narrative
Studies program in CISA.
Rafael's work focuses onimmigration, migration, the
US-Mexican borderlands and theAmerican Southwest.
His forthcoming book with theUniversity of Arizona Press.
Illegalized Undocumented YouthMovements in the United States.

(01:31):
Analyzes the rise ofundocumented youth social
movements in the US andimmigrant youth contributions to
the border.
Immigrant rights movements.
Ravel's work engages inborderland studies to
demonstrate how communitiesalong the Mexico-US border
contribute to the social,political and economic fabric of
the United States.
Which is a mouthful, so thankyou very much for giving me all

(01:54):
that to say.
But very impressive bro, very,very impressive.

Rafael Martinez (02:00):
Thank you.
Yeah, no, it's been a longtrajectory, which I'm happy to
share with you on the show, andthis is, I think, a great model
and a great medium to connectfolks that you know, be able to
share their narrative, sharetheir story and, basically, you
know, as Latinos, we're alwaystalking about how did we make it
, how did we get there?
Well, we get to share a sliceof that history with your

(02:24):
audience, nice.

Raul Lopez (02:25):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much and Iguess let's get with it.

So tell me you know who is Rafael Martinez?
Yeah well, I'm a professor, asyou heard in my intro.
That's my day job.
I always like to think of it asthat way.
But beyond that, you know, I'ma father.
I'm a son, I'm a partner to agreat family and I live in
Arizona, particularly inChandler, Arizona, Originally

(02:54):
grew up in Guanajuato, Mexico,that's where I was born and was
raised in Los Angeles,California, and did graduate
school at the University of NewMexico in Albuquerque, New
Mexico, and got the chance ofgraduating with my PhD right in
the middle of COVID.
If you can believe that,graduating with a PhD after so

(03:17):
long, so much work, so much hardwork basically, no graduation,
virtual graduation, get to leavethrough the back door after
being in Albuquerque for so long, but all with the hopes of, of
course, starting my career, myprofession as a professor here
at Arizona State University,which I've now been here for

(03:38):
four years, starting on myfourth year.
And yeah, so that's a littlebit in a nutshell who I am on my
fourth year.
And yeah, so that's a littlebit in a nutshell who I am.
I like to be involved incommunity work not necessarily
consider myself an activist, butmore so an organizer and really
cultivate and build communityand everywhere that I've lived,
that's something that's reallyimportant to me and really now

(04:03):
my biggest motivation is being afather and hopefully being able
to offer something to the nextgeneration, including my
daughter's generation.
Nice, Awesome man.

Raul Lopez (04:14):
I mean, yeah, as a father, I totally get that last
part of it.
You know, everything else isgreat.
And then you have a kid andit's like, oh no, nothing's as
great as this.
So yeah, I feel you.
So tell me.
I mean, obviously you came intothis country from Mexico.
How old were you when you cameto the country?

Yeah, so I actually got here, of all days,
cinco de Mayo of 1990.
And my birthday is May 28th.
So essentially, just you know,a little under 20 days before my
fourth birthday, just you know,a little under 20 days before
my fourth birthday.
So I was three years old, goingon four, when I arrived to the
country.
And you know, basically likemost Mexican families, the idea

(04:56):
was to come here for a few years, work hard, make some money and
maybe make a business or make alife back in Mexico after a few
years of some income, make alife back in Mexico after a few
years of some income.
But that two years, four years,five years, turned into a
lifetime and basically, like alot of our immigrant families
that live here in the US, havenow called the US home, and so

(05:19):
has my family, and I alwaysthink about that decision and
the tough decisions my parentsmust have had to make.
But I think you know, overallit's been for the best of myself
, my sister and, of course, ourgrowing family.

Raul Lopez (05:32):
Yeah, I mean I'm also I came to this country
about the same age as you, whenI was about a little over three
Also undocumented.
I don't think my parents hadplanned to go back at all, I
think they just came to stay.
But but yeah, no, I mean Itotally understand where you're
coming from and so as we'regrowing up you guys were

(05:52):
undocumented.
You know, did you recognize orunderstand some of the
challenges early on, or that'ssomething you kind of started
learning later on in life on inlife.

Yeah, again, I think back to now that I'm a
parent and thinking aboutparents' decisions and what they
share with their children.
What's the appropriate age toshare things with your children?
But I think you know my parentsfrom a very early age.
I feel like I always knew whatmy status was.
I always knew my realities andmy parents talked openly about
those realities and situationsin our household.

(06:29):
You know, and I think that wassomething that, whether we like
it or not, como si quieres o noquieres, like as a kid you know
to speak in Spanglish along withthe show name you know you have
to grow up fast in some waysand really be open to those

(06:50):
realities.
And so I think at a very earlyage I already had some very
critical questions and you knowself-awareness about my family's
, you know status but also howwe were similar or different to
other American families.
Other families in myneighborhood were very similar.

(07:12):
You know I grew up in a part ofLA South Central LA that's
predominantly Latinx and Blackor African American, with a
heavy concentration ofimmigrants.
So, luckily, I feel like I grewup in a place where my story
was not, you know, out of thenorm or necessarily atypical,

(07:32):
but I grew up with a lot ofneighbor friends who were also
undocumented, were alsoimmigrant families, and so I
think that that helped me, youknow, kind of feel like, oh, I'm
not out of place even thoughI'm in a foreign country or a
different country.
But it also, I think, gave me alot of the critical questions
that I don't think mostsix-year-olds or eight-year-olds

(07:55):
when I started coming of agewas asking like, hey, what does
my neighborhood look the waythat it does?
Why is it that we drive, youknow, 20, 30 minutes and those
neighborhoods look radicallydifferent?
You know, I think, a lot ofthose questions.
And then also, la was goingthrough a lot of changes,
california was going through alot of changes in the early 90s
as well, and so my parentsalways listened to the Spanish

(08:19):
radio when we were driving toschool or work or we were
watching the afternoon newswhile we were making dinner and
things of that sort.
So I feel like news andpolitical messaging and all
those things were always in theback of my ears, or mind, if you
will.
And you know, I think like Ialways interacted with all of

(08:39):
that messaging at a very earlyage.
And try to formulate like who Iwas as a person, as an
individual, and also, you knowwho I wanted to be essentially
in the future.
And you know my parents nevershied away from taking me to
their jobs, to their work, youknow, and you know part of it

(09:00):
was out of necessity.
Many of the times they didn'thave places to necessarily leave
me, but I would see their hardwork that they would perform.
Both of my parents will comefrom the same town where I was
born Guanajuato.
It's called Moroleón Guanajuatoand it's basically an
industrial town.

(09:20):
It's not an agricultural townbut it's an industrial town that
primarily focuses on garmentindustry.
So they sew and make clothesand shoes and things of that
sort.
So that was another naturaltransition for coming to Los
Angeles because you know, la isone of the garment, has a huge
garment industry.
You know that's worldwideessentially, and so when my

(09:44):
parents got there, I got to see,I went to their factorias,
their factories where theyworked.
You know a lot of people wouldcall them sweatshops because you
know they're not the best ofconditions, and so as a little
kid I would see them how hardthey would work, how many hours
they would work, and they wouldalways tell me.
You know.
You know you could choose to dothis labor if you want to, or

(10:07):
you could choose to stay inschool and, you know, pursue
something else, and I thinkthat's something that always
stuck.
I didn't quite understand, ofcourse, at that age and time,
but that's something that alwaysstuck with me, is okay.
Well, there's a few options,there's not one option.
You don't have to choose tostay in the destiny or kind of
what you're born into or whatyour family, you know, has done.

(10:29):
You could, you know, aspire forsomething else, and I recognize
that my parents were alsomaking that sacrifice, you know,
coming to a country that wasn'ttheirs, speaking a language
that necessarily wasn't thereand adopting to a culture that
wasn't theirs.
So for me it was.
You know, where do I want tomake that sacrifice count?
The day of tomorrow.

(10:49):
And so that's something thatyou know.
I was stuck.
They didn't necessarily knowhow to navigate the educational
system or tools, but they alwaysgave me the confidence and the
motivation and the support tosay whatever you decide, as long
as it's something positive andwithin school or sports, we're
going to go ahead and try to doour best to support it.

(11:10):
And so a lot of times I wouldbe the one looking up you know
programs or after schoolprograms, tutoring, all these
other different things that wecould do, and they always said,
yes, you know, as long as theycould afford it and as long as
they could do it and support me,they always did, and so that's
something that I think alwaysstood with me.

Raul Lopez (11:31):
Yeah, I think it's always the hindsight, as you get
older, to kind of look back andsay, oh, you know, I didn't
feel like an immigrant of mylife, but I recognize things now
where it's like, you know,there was things we had to do,
we had to be very you know wenever caused trouble with the

(11:52):
landlord because we didn't wantnobody to call somebody on us,
or you know we avoided thingswith the police or we you know.
But you just kind of weregrowing up and you were just
like, oh, that's just likeliving.
And then you get old and yourecognize, okay, my parents are
doing this and we're doing this,and they're they.
They literally, and back in theday you left your family and
you might not have talked tothem for six months to a year.

(12:12):
It's not like now where you canFaceTime everybody every day
and WhatsApp people up the ass,but it's just.
You know, it was a bigsacrifice and you know we, as
you grow older, you recognizethat, you notice that and I
think it helped drive me, and soI know you said education was
important to you.
But what was a big drivingfactor for you when it came to

(12:33):
education?
Was it just seeing thedifferences in the potential
work or was it the sacrifices?

Yeah, I think you know there's several factors
, I think that push me toeducation.
You know, one of the ones iskind of briefly talked about,
which was, you know, reallytrying to understand this new
environment, or the US, if youwill, right, where I was asking

(13:02):
very critical questions, and itsounds a little cliche, but it's
true.
Like you know, I remember veryclearly when the Rodney King
beating happened, you know, in1992 in LA, that you know.
Basically, I remember myparents telling me hey, we came
here for a better life and allof a sudden, my city's on fire,
right, like I look outside mywindow and my city's on fire.

(13:24):
And so I literally remembersaying like, well, why did this
happen?
And the only response that thenews was telling me is like, oh,
this motorist did somethingwrong and people are upset with
it because they'reAfrican-American, and like this
whole issue about race being sobig, right.
And so, even though I was animmigrant, I was like, oh, wow,

(13:46):
like well, there's a historyhere of people being treated a
certain way if you look acertain way and if you live in a
certain place, right, and soall of those things for me
started asking all thesequestions.
Then, when I got to, I think Ididn't really think about, you
know, college or any of thosethings until I started getting
to like middle school and highschool and, in particular, I

(14:08):
started getting I made reallygood mentors.
I feel like I always had goodhistory teachers all the way
through and I feel like thatjust pushed me in that direction
.
Like that just pushed me inthat direction Again, having all
these questions where I wastrying to make sense of my world
, make sense of the US, and youknow my place in it and you know

(14:31):
, when I took world history inmiddle school, it was like, oh,
like you know, learning aboutall the civilizations and
learning non-Westerncivilizations that had great
things, like in the Americas, inMexico, central America, south

(14:52):
America, you know, all thesedifferent places that people had
done, accomplished great thingsbefore colonial conquest, and
so all of those things, I think,stood with me all the way up to
like high school and then againhaving really good mentors.
And then when I got to collegeand really, you know, found my
first mentors within takingChicana and Chicano studies
courses, that formed like theconsciousness that I had been

(15:14):
looking for all of my life,where I, you know, I was trying
to answer these questions, ortrying to ask the right
questions, I should say.
And then I realized, you know,through professors that said, oh
, you know what the type ofquestions that you're asking are
like research questions, right,they're questions that require,

(15:34):
you know, in-depth analysis,looking at archives, looking at
records, you know, being able tothink about this stuff and
write about these things.
And I said, you know what isall of that?
And you know, I didn't knowwhat doing research meant.
I didn't know what being aprofessor meant.
I just thought of it as youknow, a teacher for college
students.

(15:54):
But it was really through theirmodels and through their
examples that I realized thatthat was something I wanted to
pursue, that you know, I wantedto be like some of those
professors who were able toteach and research but also
teach the next generation aboutthese things, because I knew
that if I was growing up withthese questions, I'm sure a lot

(16:15):
of other kids in the hood, a lotof other kids in different
cities across the US weregrowing up in similar and
different ways as well, withsimilar questions that needed
those answers, and so that wasreally a big part of my
motivation.
But again, really it startedwith my parents and that
foundation of saying we came tothe US for a better life.

(16:36):
Education is really the pathway.
And then the last thing I'll sayabout that and we could expand
maybe a little later was that asan immigrant, as an
undocumented person at the time,you know, education felt like
the safe bet.
Right, if I'm not, if I'm goingto not be, if I'm going to

(16:57):
graduate and not going to beeligible necessarily to have a
job, you know I'm just going tostay in school as long as I can,
right, why graduate Just get adegree?
And so education felt like asafe bet because when I talked
to my professors, when I talkedto my teachers from, you know,
middle school, high school andthen college, they understood me

(17:18):
, they supported me.
You know they were okay with mystatus and who I was.
You know they were okay with mystatus and who I was.
It was the rest of society, ifyou will.
That didn't feel like a safeplace of like not being able to
get a job.
And you know, certain politicsfederally and state level
politics that you knowrestricted you from doing other

(17:38):
things, and so in some ways,education felt like a safe bet
pretty much to now, essentially.

Raul Lopez (17:46):
Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting the way you put it
that it's a safe bet becausethere are so many challenges.
And so for people who might notunderstand, you know, as I
think people have to have apretty broad brush that they
paint undocumented immigrantswith and they don't recognize
the challenges that we have Now,can you talk a little bit about

(18:07):
some of those challenges youhad, especially when it came to
like college and high school andthings like that, as an
undocumented immigrant?

Yes, yes, of course.
And so you know, growing upundocumented, you know you
really don't start hitting awall, I would say, until you
start coming of age, really yourlate teens and about to enter
college.
For me, I remember being inhigh school and all of my
friends starting to get theirdriver's licenses and getting

(18:35):
their cars, some of them gettingcars and being able to drive
around and hang out and all thatcool stuff that everybody
associates with being able todrive, all that cool stuff that
everybody associates with beingable to drive.
Well, at the time in California, undocumented communities
weren't eligible for a driver'slicense, right?
And so basically all of my timethat I lived in California,

(18:55):
which was all the way until Iwas 26 years old, I didn't drive
, which, if anybody who'slistening to this, who knows
California or knows LA, it wouldprobably be like freaking out
because they're like, how didyou get around if you never
drove in LA?
Like LA is a driving city, likeyou can't get around.
And so it was a lot of publictransportation, taking the bus

(19:17):
everywhere, the metro everywhere, getting rides.
You know, friendships, I thinkthat you know, when I go back to
LA and I see a lot of myfriends.
The first thing I remember is,you know, getting rights from
them and, just you know, beingable to listen to their radio
stations, to their music andhanging out with them.
Because, again, that was suchlike.
When we think about allyshipand being allies to other

(19:41):
communities that aremarginalized or vulnerable, we
think of the big things, butsometimes it's the little things
that make a difference.
In this case, giving somebody aright who can't have access to
a driver's license is such a bigdeal.
And so, yeah, in high schoolthat was the case A lot of my
friends started getting theirfirst jobs in high school.

(20:03):
Going into college Again, youknow, I wasn't eligible to have
a work permit or be able to worklegally in the US.
So my parents said, hey, youknow, let's just put that off,
let's wait until you're a littlebit older.
So all my friends were, youknow, driving, getting their job
, buying new shoes, new kicks,everything else.

(20:23):
And you know, for me I'm justlike stationary.
I felt like, you know, I'm inplace if you will, and that was
very frustrating.
You know, if you think ofteenagers today who have access
to everything really quick ontheir phones and material
culture is so big in the UnitedStates.
That was such a frustrating,tough and, you know, carried a

(20:46):
lot of anger and to this day,I'll be honest, you know, I
think a lot of people don'tunderstand that my whole episode
in California was undocumented.
So every time that I thinkabout California or every time I
go back to California,california or LA, for me
represents the struggle, right,it represents the hardship.
I'm literally driving throughLA and I'll look at, you know, a

(21:09):
bus stop and I'll look at it ina different light every single
time that I go back, because Iremember those things and that
frustration in some ways isstill there and things like that
.
So those were tough.
Once I got to college, I decidedto go to my local state school
and a big part of that wasaffordability and also, again,

(21:32):
mobility, right, I couldn'ttravel to another school, so I
literally went to the schoolthat was closest to me and that
was affordable to me.
State schools are much moreexpensive today in California
but luckily, at that time theywere much more affordable.
I remember paying as low as$900 a semester for tuition,

(21:55):
right, which is still aconsiderable amount for an
immigrant family, but thankfully, again, my parents supported
and with their help, and theneventually I did start working.
My first job was workingdrive-thru at McDonald's.
I'm not ashamed to say it right, that was my job all through my
undergraduate career.
It was a McDonald's that wasclosest to my university.

(22:16):
So I went to work from 4 am, Igot off at 12 and then basically
did afternoon classes.
I walked to my university fromthen, basically did afternoon
classes.
I walked to my university fromwork and did afternoon classes
and then basically, you know,took the bus home and was home
by like 8 or 9 pm, that you know, that evening.
And so that was my realitybasically, for my undergrad was

(22:39):
about eight years.
And again, when I tell peoplethat I spent eight years in
undergrad, they're like well,why did it took you so long to
graduate?
I said, well, you know, therewas times where I was taking not
full now full term classes, Iwas just taking a few classes at
a time to be able to pay for it.
And there was times where, youknow, again I was like I'm not

(23:00):
going to graduate, there's noreason for me to graduate the
day of tomorrow.
So I just kept taking creditsand taking credits.
Luckily there was in-statetuition in California, and I
shouldn't say luckily.
But you know, actually in myresearch and in my book that I
talk about.
In my book, which we'll talkabout in a minute, you know,
part of that research waslooking at how immigrant youth

(23:23):
and undocumented youth have beenfighting and organizing in
California as early as the 1980sto get in-state tuition in
California.
That actually didn't happenuntil the early 2000s, right.
So by the time that I get tocollege in 2004, we already had

(23:43):
in-state tuition in California.
Texas, of course, is the firststate that passes in-state
tuition for undocumented youthin 2001,.
Surprisingly, because that haschanged over time in Texas as
well.
But yeah, so by the time that Iget to college I am able to

(24:03):
qualify for instant tuition, andthat made a world of a
difference.
We didn't have state aid at thetime in California.
That came much later.
So after I graduated, duringthe time that I was an undergrad
, I organized with people allacross the state to pass what's
now the California Dream Act.
California Dream Act and theCalifornia Dream Act is what

(24:29):
gave undocumented youth not onlyin-state tuition but also state
aid, where they could apply forstate aid and be able to apply
that for their scholarships andto go to college.
I didn't have any access tothat, but I was proud and happy
to say that.
You know, like many other youth, we fought for that and we got
that and that's in place now forstudents in today's colleges,

(24:52):
all across out of pocketessentially.
And then I'm getting that firstjob.
That you know was not theeasiest and not the desired job,
but you know, I'm still proudto say that it helped out and

(25:15):
got me through my undergrad.

Raul Lopez (25:17):
Yeah, it's, and it's kind of hilarious that you know
there's a negative picturesometimes for these low skill
jobs, that for someone who can'tget a job Like how did you feel
, like the moment you finallygot a job?
You're like, how did you feel?

Honestly, I was just.
I was just excited.
I was just excited to have ajob, to be able to say, oh my
God, I'm going to have apaycheck, I'm not going to
depend on my parents anymore,I'm not going to put that burden
on my parents anymore.
You know I could access, youknow things, you know it was a
big deal.
And I remember because so I'lltell you a quick anecdote and I

(25:57):
share this with you know closefriends.
But I remember applying for ajob at Universal Studios
Hollywood and I went through thewhole application process.
I got interviewed for it and Ibasically got made the cut.
I mean, there was like hundredsof us that got interviewed and
everything.
And I'm like an 18, 19-year-oldkid and I get hired for one of

(26:22):
their shows, actually in theconcert hall.
And you know it's like this bigdeal because I'm like, oh my
God, I'm going to be able to seeconcerts, blah, blah.
And then I get a phone call andthey're like, hey, you know
we're having issues with yourpaperwork.
You know, can you come into theoffice and like, let's talk
about it?
And you know, just bringingyour paperwork, and you know,

(26:42):
you got come into the office andlike, let's talk about it.
And you know, just bringingyour paperwork and, and you know
, you got the job.
And of course I never calledthem back, I never.
I never followed up.
I was like, ah, you know, theregoes that opportunity.
So I was really bummed out, youknow, because that would have
been a cool job.
But then when I got landed a jobin McDonald's, I was like you
know what like this anything isgood.
I was like you know what likethis anything is good?

(27:04):
Having that culture and that,having access to money and be
able to work and supportyourself, that's a big deal.
So, yeah, no, I think that youknow, it was just a big deal at
the time, for sure, and I'mstill grateful for it.
And I'm grateful for theexperiences because I think that
, even though it was alow-skilled job, I learned so
much from that job and I learnedcustomer service.

(27:26):
I learned how to not be shy,how to talk to people, how to
get out of very difficultsituations, you name it.
You see so many experiences inthe fast food industry that you
have to learn quick and as a19-year-old, I feel like I had
to learn quick there as well.

Raul Lopez (27:45):
Yeah, definitely yeah.
I feel sometimes like immigranthumility is a big part of our
lives, like taking the smallthings and making them feel
great.
So obviously you're in collegeand you're talking about Dreamer
and all that stuff.
Did you eventually get accesshelp with DACA as well?

Yeah, so, you know, I stayed in touch with my
mentor and advisor through myundergrad and I organized with
her and she actually moved tothe University of New Mexico two
years before I was set tograduate or was even thinking of
graduating.
I stayed in touch with her.
She became the director ofChicano and Chicano Studies at

(28:27):
UNM and you know, she called meonce and she said, hey, are you
still interested in grad school?
And I said yes, and she said,well, what's stopping you?
And I said, well, money, like Idon't have money for grad
school, you know.
And she said, well, you know, Ithink, if you're interested, I
think there's opportunities outhere that we can support with
that.
And I was like, well, that's,you know, that's all the

(28:51):
opportunity and the help that Ineed.
So I'm down, you know, I'm allfor it.
And so I stayed in touch withher for those two years, you
know, finally worked ongraduating.
Two years, you know, finallyworked on graduating and I
graduated, you know, spring 2012.

(29:11):
And, of course, daca, orDeferred Action for Childhood
Arrivals, that President Obamaannounced as an executive
auction happened on June 15 of2012.
Right, so I was already getting.
I had been saving up forforever on my McDonald's job.
You know, I saved all the moneythat I could to make the
transition and move to NewMexico.

(29:32):
You know, at that point DACAhadn't been announced, so I was
literally just counting on thisopportunity and making the best
out of it.
When the announcement happens,the summer of 2012, I mean, that
just changed my life.
It was just like, oh my God,like I'm going to have access to
a work permit, I'm going to beable to, you know, be in the US
legally.

(29:52):
You know, it just made a worldof difference, but it was still
a little bit like, is this thingreally going to happen?
You still have all those doubtsand like is this real?
Or like you know somethinggoing to happen.
But I start.
You know, I started my master'sprogram at UNM in the fall of

(30:13):
2012.
And so I applied that fall 2012to DACA.
And so after my first semester,I think I got DACA my first
time, maybe like late November,early December.
So that first semester itdidn't really kick in or make a
big effect, if you will.
But of course, by my secondsemester now, I was able to

(30:33):
legally work on campus.
So right away I got a graduateassistantship, meaning that I
was working with a professor,being mentored by a professor
and doing research right off theback, and that, basically,
assistantship not only coveredmy tuition right so I didn't
have to pay for tuition out ofpocket and it gave me a monthly

(30:56):
stipend right, which was plentyto live off of.
Luckily, albuquerque, new Mexico, is a very affordable city and
a very affordable place, and soit was just the perfect scenario
.
But yeah, that was the gamechanger, I would say, because my
whole experience again inCalifornia as an undergrad had

(31:16):
been undocumented, whichpresented all those hardships
that I just outlined a minuteago.
And then for my graduate schoolin New Mexico, it was
completely the opposite.
It was just night and day.
It represented all theopportunities that I didn't have
as an undergrad and I had a job, I was able to legally be in
the United States and New Mexicoalso had driver's licenses.

(31:41):
So right away, you know, mysecond semester I apply, I take
my driver test and I luckilypass and I get a driver's
license.
And I didn't get a car rightaway, but you know, just to be
able to drive made a world of adifference my whole experience
as a graduate student, from mymaster's to my PhD that I was

(32:04):
there in New Mexico for abouteight years was just radically
different from my undergradexperience, thanks to this
program DACA that we still havetoday and which is what I'm
still qualified under as a DACArecipient.

Raul Lopez (32:19):
Nice, nice.
Where's the first place youdrove to once you got your
license?

Nice nice, where's the first place you
drove to once you got yourlicense.
Well, you know, as mentioned,you know we're fraternity
brothers and so one of thethings that I did was I helped
start a chapter there at theUniversity of New Mexico, and so
right away we had tons ofbrothers that helped out with
that process, from Texas rightthat can drove out from Texas to

(32:43):
New Mexico, brothers fromCalifornia that helped out.
So, you know, right away I toldthe brothers in New Mexico hey,
we got to repay those debts,let's go ahead and take road
trips to Texas, to California.
And so I feel like almost everybreak that we had, like a
spring break, fall break or likesummer break, we were taking
road trips to one of thoseplaces which you know I remember

(33:06):
like those, those brothers thatI took those road trips with,
those are like just suchmemorable experiences because
they literally, I remember themlike making fun of like my
driving.
They were saying that I drivelike a grandpa because I'm like
literally behind the wheel, likeall tense and nervous and
everything going the speed limitand I was like chill guys, like

(33:27):
you got to understand, like I'm27 years old and this is like
the first time I'm able to like,legally or actually able to
drive.
And so, yeah, I mean, that'sthat was literally my learning
experience with brothers andthen being able to drive to all
these places and finally be onthe road.
And you know, I feel like sincethen I still value road trips
so much more now that I'm ableto do them with my family and go

(33:51):
on road trips, because I feellike you know again, something
as simple as like a driver'slicense or driving we take for
granted in the United States,and so just having access to
that mobility, I try to bemindful of those things and you
know.
But yeah, so I think probablyTexas was the first place that
we drove through for a road trip.

Raul Lopez (34:14):
Nice, good old Texas .
I miss Texas Good times.

I think it was formal.

Raul Lopez (34:20):
Formal might have been one of the ones you guys
went to yeah.

I think so.
Yeah, I remember going to it,yeah.

Raul Lopez (34:26):
So, yeah, I remember that that's a long time ago.

I'm old, but no , that's awesome yeah, tell me
about it.

Raul Lopez (34:35):
So yeah, dude, and that's awesome.
And you know, I think one ofthe things you keep bringing up
is mentorship, the importance ofmentorship and how it affected
you, and you put something inyour pre-interview questions the
rule of three for mentorship.
Can you explain that a littlebit for me?

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.
You know, I learned this from acolleague and I feel like I've
always in some ways been doingthis informally.
I've always in some ways beendoing this informally, but it
wasn't until, like, a colleagueof mine and a mentor of mine
explained it to me, where shesaid you know, ideally, there's
a rule that you should think ofit as a rule of three to

(35:12):
mentorship, where you know,ideally, you have three people
for different realms of yourlife that you can ask for
support on a given moment, right?
So, of course, we tend to thinkof the division of our life in
terms of, like, our career,professional life, our personal

(35:33):
life.
You know, if you're into sportsor anything like that, your
athletic life or exercisingthings of that sort, right, you
know I like running, for example, and so, like, if you like
exercising, like you could havethree runners or three exercise
friends that know much moreabout exercising than you do
that could help you out with,like, meeting your goals and

(35:55):
things of that sort.
The same thing with your career, right, I always tend to think
of, like you know, I want tohave colleagues and friends who
can support and who've alreadygone through the steps that I'm
currently going through rightnow.
So, for example, right now, asan assistant professor, I'm
working towards tenure, which isbasically on your fifth or

(36:18):
sixth year of being an assistantprofessor.
Then you get promoted to anassociate professor.
Once you become an associateprofessor, you're there for good
, right, in the sense that younow have a terminal contract.
You still get promoted throughthe ranks if you will, but
you're not getting evaluated interms of your contract being

(36:41):
questioned.
If you will, right now, as anassistant professor, when you
get evaluated towards senior,they could either, you know,
give you that promotion or theycould say, you know, thank you
for your service.
You know it's time to look foranother job, essentially which
is sounds very scary, right, butyou know the way that people
tell you is that you got hiredfor your potential and the work

(37:02):
that you've already been doing,that you're going to be
expanding on that, but you haveto meet milestones in that
process.
And so since I got to ASU, sinceI got to being a professor, you
know I've had colleagues andfriends of mine who have already
gone through the tenure process, the tenure process, who some

(37:26):
of them are from within my fieldor a discipline and some of
them are from outside disciplineor field, and that's important,
right?
Because oftentimes you're goingto get certain information from
people within your area ofinfluence that are going to tell
you things.
But it's also good to getperspectives, even though you're
in the same career or in thesame job, if you will, from
people outside of that sphere ofinfluence that could add or

(37:50):
bring you a fresh pair of eyes.
But ideally, you know you wantto have three people that you
could count on, that you know.
If all three people are tellingyou similar information, then
you know it's more to be true ifyou will or that you want to
follow certain paths, but alsothat you take you know we're all

(38:11):
different personalities, so youwant to take different, you
know qualities, differentattributes, different assets
from that piece of advice thatworks for you.
Because I think the other thingabout mentoring that oftentimes
we forget that mentoring isn'tabout telling people what to do.
It's about telling, sharing.
You know, first of alllistening rather than sharing,

(38:33):
listening to what a person wantsto accomplish and do, and you
know, if they're asking forsuggestions or recommendations,
then possibly giving them tothem and saying you know, this
is what has worked for me.
You know these are things toconsider and things to think
about, and then, as the menteeis thinking about what works for

(38:55):
you in your scenario, so youtake bits and pieces from those
three individuals that youresort to for questions, and I
think of people as assets, justas much as any other tool or
resource that you can haveavailable to you.
People are assets, people areknowledge, and so if I don't

(39:17):
know how to do something or I'mtrying to do something, before I
even Google it, before I even,you know, do anything else, I
reach out to people that I knoware in my realm of three, in
that particular area ordiscipline or or, you know,
whatever question I might have,and it's kind of like within a
large network, right, like we'retalking about our fraternity

(39:39):
within our large network that wehave access to.
You have people in academia, sothose people could be part of
your three, right, you want tohave three individuals and
whatever questions, whateverarea that you might be seeking
advice for, and be able to havethose folks.
So think, thinking about youknow, the different areas of
your life you want to just keep,but think about those

(40:01):
relationships as fostering, soit's not just, you know, being
able to exchange give and take,but also friendships that you're
cultivating right.
You also need to be those oneof those three, four people in
the future as well.
So you have to foster thoserelationships and water that
garden, essentially, and makesure, making sure those
friendships grow.

Raul Lopez (40:23):
Nice, yeah, essentially, and and make sure,
making sure those friendshipsgrow, yeah, nice, yeah, I mean I
, I think I'm the worst when itcame to like finding mentorship,
uh, in my life.
So I, I went a long timewithout having.
I still don't even know if Ihave mentors really in my life,
but I, I'm doing my best to tryto take advantage of my peers as
mentors at this point with,especially with the fraternity
and the brothers I have.

(40:43):
So so I think, lots of timesearly on, we look at older
people as our mentors, and atthis point, some of your mentors
could literally be people yourage, even younger, that have
accomplished things that youhaven't done yet and you want to
get their insight.
So you know, I think it, Ithink it's important for people
to realize that it's not toolate to look for mentors or find
mentors.
You know, I think it's avaluable tool to use throughout

(41:06):
your life, even as you getexperience.
But obviously mentorship wasimportant to you and I think it
helped you eventually to get towhere you're at now.
So tell me what your journeywas like to become a professor
or assistant professor.

Yes, yeah, present, yes, yeah.
So when I started graduateschool and the master's program,
I always knew that if, okay, Imade it this far.
You know, master's again, youknow, had DACA but didn't know
what the situation withimmigration was going to be.
So, again, education felt likethe safe bet.

(41:41):
And so, you know, the idea ofthe PhD or a doctorate was
always, you know, around andsaying if I'm going into
academia, you know, phd is theroute.
So, you know, I had goodprofessor doing research and

(42:05):
teaching classes.
You know, I also looked at heras an example of how you can use
education and higher educationto mentor the next generation,
to cultivate community and tocraft strategically craft spaces
in higher education to ensurethat underrepresented voices are

(42:29):
heard and included in theprocess of higher education.
And so it was through herexample that I realized, oh,
it's not just about teaching,it's not just about researching
and publishing, but it's alsoabout, you know, mentoring and
working with students on thislevel.
And so, you know, for mymaster's, I was contemplating

(42:58):
going elsewhere for the PhD, butI felt like I had the support
system.
I had already built a communitythere, at UNM, but also in
Albuquerque and New Mexico morebroadly at UNM, but also in
Albuquerque and New Mexico morebroadly.
So I decided to stay there forthe PhD.
I did my MA and PhD in AmericanStudies, which is an ethnic
studies field, basicallylearning the history of diverse
ethnic communities in the UnitedStates, but my research still

(43:21):
focused particularly onimmigrant youth and undocumented
youth, and immigrant rightsmore broadly.
When I got to UNM in 2012, Imentioned that DACA had just
passed.
One of the things that I hadthe privilege of doing was that,
with my mentor, we organized asymposium at UNM in 2012, where

(43:44):
we hosted organizers, activistsfrom all over the United States
and then scholars from all overthe United States who were doing
things around immigrant rights,and so we hosted them.
We did the symposium, werecorded all the sessions, video
recorded and audio recorded allthe sessions.
And you know I don't know ifit's ever happened to you, I'm

(44:09):
sure it's happened to all of usthat sometimes you don't realize
you're living a historicalmoment when it's unfolding in
front of your eyes and you'relike it's not until much later
that you're like wow, like Istill, I still need to process
this.
Like you know, this, this, thisis a big deal and and that's

(44:29):
what that symposium was for me,you know, when it came time to
start thinking about my, my PhDdissertation, which is writing
your research for yourdissertation, you know I came
back to that symposium.
I said you know what this is?
What I want to write?
I want to write about thehistory in the way that

(44:51):
undocumented youth, particularlyin the 21st century, you know,
have changed the way that wetalk about immigrant rights
today, and I kept up with a lotof those activists.
I followed their, theiractivism, their actions.
Um, I'm very much good friendswith many of them today.
I keep up with them on socialmedia and things of that sort.

(45:12):
And so, um, you know thatthat's basically what evolved
into my dissertation for my PhD.
Uh, and really what?
Um, you know, um, what I workedon for all of my PhD.
And then, you know, I knew thatI wanted to be a professor
already at that point, when Istarted the master's and went

(45:33):
into the PhD, of course, becauseof my status, it was always
like, well, there's nobody been,you know, an immigrant or a
person with DACA who's aprofessor, right, like, how does
that happen?
And I remember talking to youknow, because now we've had a
large number of undocumentedscholars, which means you know

(45:53):
scholars who are in academia,who come from an undocumented
background or perspective, whohave DACA, like myself, this
process, and many of themreaching out to me as well, or
people that reach out to me nowand say how did you do it?
And I always go back to thisbecause my fear was like, well,

(46:14):
how am I going to get hired?
And they say, well, you have asocial security number and you
have a work permit, so what'sthe problem?
They shouldn't ask anyquestions.
You have the legal right towork.
They have the legal right tohire you.
So what's the problem?
And so it literally dawned onme it was that simple.

(46:38):
But you know, again, you gothrough all these years of like
can I do this?
Well, I do this that it justalmost feels surreal that that's
a possibility.
And so, luckily, like I said, Iwent from the PhD.
I went on the job market, youknow 2019.
The academic job market isusually about a year long, in

(46:59):
terms of you apply, let's say,in the fall, and then, if you
get a job, it won't start untilthe following fall.
And so I interviewed for thejob that I got at ASU in fall, I
did my campus visit, you knowmeaning.
I went to visit the campus anddid additional interviews at ASU

(47:19):
in early February.
I came back from the campusvisit and they told me it would
take about you know, a month totwo months for me to hear back
from them.
They called me about two weekslater, offering me the job in
like mid-February, which I waslike just shocked and surprised
and, you know, just in tears,like I couldn't believe it.

(47:43):
I remember getting that call andbeing on the driving and on the
driving and being in the car,so I pulled over and I was with
my daughter who's, you know, shewas only like three at the time
and, um, she was just like,like she couldn't understand
anything, like what's going on,like why is my dad crying?
And um, you know, I justremember like hugging her and

(48:04):
like just being so happy aboutthat whole experience.
But it was crazy.
So I get the job, I take thejob mid-February and then by
early March, everything's onlockdown.
Everything's closed downbecause of COVID, right?
And so then you go into thiswhole panic mode like, oh my God
, what's going to happen?

(48:24):
Like am I even going to getthis job?
Like you know, I was was, ofcourse, paying attention to the
news and many universities werefor furloughing people and many
jobs were not pending throughbecause, you know, people, uh,
institutions, were having to,you know, um, figure out their
budgets and scenarios of whatwas going to happen for this

(48:45):
unprecedented time of COVID.
Luckily, you know that didn'thappen with me.
You know the offer still wentthrough and everything happened
and it was a really great offerand you know I couldn't think of
a better place to start mycareer than Arizona State
University, because it's been agreat place for me to start my

(49:06):
career and really greatcolleagues, great atmosphere and
of course, it was hard to moveduring COVID.
In the middle of COVID, gettingto Arizona, and literally the
day that we moved here, it waslike 120 in terms of heat, so it
was like a rude awakening in somany ways.

(49:27):
But no, it's been great.
So that's a little bit of thattrajectory going from, like, the
research, the dissertation, tothen, you know, getting the job
offer at ASU and then, of course, the dissertations were turned
into the book that's gettingpublished and you know we'll be
out later this year.

Raul Lopez (49:46):
Nice, nice, and we'll be out later this year,
nice, nice.
And it's funny, of all thestuff, you were worried about
not being able to get a job,with some damn virus that came
along that give you the biggestscare, right, it's like it has
nothing to do with your status,but that's awesome, man.
And so you talked about yourbook and I was going to ask you
about your book.
Illegalize, I keep sayingIllegalize.

Tell me a little bit about the book.
Yeah, of course.
So, as I mentioned a little bitearlier, the book essentially
came out of, you know, meetingand really my whole adult life
experience as the way that Idescribe it and I start with
this in the intro and in kind ofthe preface, you know, sharing
a little bit of my positionalityand my experience, but kind of

(50:30):
saying that along while I'mexperiencing all of this stuff
in my personal life, you know,social media had just started in
the early 2000s, right?
So if you remember MySpace,then Facebook and all of those
good things, a lot of my, youknow a lot of my social media
feed at the time was whenundocumented youth had started

(50:53):
to organize and do actions allaround the United States and
really take activism to placeswhere it hadn't been.
You know before, as I describedthe immigrant rights movement
for historically had been alabor rights movement where
basically anything that wasdealt with immigration only had

(51:15):
to do with labor, right, likeexploitation of labor, bad
working scenarios, all of thesedifferent things around labor.
But it was never aroundidentity, it was never around
political issues and certainlyimmigrants were not the leaders
of the movement themselves.
It was, for the most part civilrights organizations and civil

(51:37):
rights leader who wouldbasically tell immigrants okay,
you know, like what's your story?
Okay, this is your story.
Okay, sit in the back, let mego ahead and I'm the politician
or I'm the authorized body.
Let me go up and you know, sitin the back, Let me go ahead and
I'm the politician or I'm theauthorized body.
Let me go up and you know,advocate on your behalf.
Don't say anything, because ifpeople hear your story, you're
going to get detained and you'regoing to get deported.

(51:58):
Right, and that was thenarrative for the longest time
within immigrant rights anduntil, you know, in the 2000s,
when all these anti-immigrantpolicies started getting
proposed.
If you remember, one of mybiggest moments was in 2006 and
2007.
There were these giant marchesthat happened all around the

(52:20):
United States for May 1st, oryou know the immigrant marches
that began popping up every year.
You know the immigrant marchesthat begin popping up every year
, and some of those marches werethe largest in some of the
major cities across the US,including LA, where I lived at
the time.
And if you attended thosemarches, like I did, the first
thing that you saw was again thetraditional messaging for

(52:43):
immigrant rights movement.
But then you saw immigrantyouth who kind of fractioned off
and started messagingdifferently.
And so I document a lot of thathistory to show how that's
really when undocumented youthstarted creating their own
organizations and said no, youknow what, we're going to go

(53:04):
ahead and be our own leaders.
We're going to change the waywe talk about immigrant rights
and we're going to take ouractivism to places that is
affecting immigrant communities.
Right, when we think aboutimmigrant rights, we think of
the borderlands, we think of theUS-Mexico borderlands.
Borderlands had moved into theinterior of the country because

(53:37):
all the policies, the 11 millionundocumented immigrants that
are estimated right, they'vebeen living in the United States
for a very long time, they'reworking in the United States, so
the policy started being ableto implement.
You know, we had HomelandSecurity, born in 2001.
Born in 2001.
Ice you know, after theterrorist attacks in 9-11, ice
became the branch that starteddetaining and detecting people

(53:59):
in the interior of the country.
And so what the activists that Idocument is?
They start taking theiractivism, their civil
disobedience, to places likedetention centers, the US-Mexico
borderlands and challenging theway that we talk about
immigrant rights.
Abolish ICE you know, nobody'sillegal on stolen land.
All of these different phrasesthat we hear about in mainstream

(54:33):
media today, all of those cameout of this particular movement
where, you know, undocumentedyouth changed the way that we
think about immigrant rights andthe way that we talk about
immigrant rights today.
So, you know, the legalizedportion of the title is
basically, you know, theactivism showing how immigrants
are rendered illegal in theUnited States in these

(54:55):
particular ways and showing thatundocumented people themselves
are not illegal, but it'sactually, you know, things like
detention centers that areviolating human rights, pointing
the finger back at the stateand showing how the state is
responsible for basicallycommitting illegal acts on
immigrant or human beingsthemselves as well.

Raul Lopez (55:17):
Yeah, yeah, I remember those marches, both in
the early stages and even whenwe were marching in front of
different detention centers andthings like that in Houston when
I was in Houston.
So, yeah, it was all over theplace and it's awesome to see I
think that's one of thestrongest things I think that's
come out of.

(55:37):
Social media is giving theyouth a voice that spreads like
wildfire now and they can bemore present.
So that's awesome that you'vebeen able to focus on that.
I appreciate you taking, uh,the time to actually make a book
about it and and keep that.
You know hard, hard coding that,that part of history, in

(55:58):
something that can't be takenaway.
So so you know, thank you forthat, uh, and so, um, what's,
what's?
What's next for you?
Like now that you're you're,you've gotten all this stuff.
Obviously, you got your book.
You're still your assistantprofessor, looking to get
tenured.
You know what are you lookingforward to for in the future for
yourself?

Yeah, well, you know I'll talk a little bit
about some future plans, butreally this year I'm excited for
the book to be out.
Right, it comes out in October.
We'll post the link sohopefully folks who are
listening to this go out and youcan pre-order it.
You know, get it and it'll bedelivered in October.
But I've gotten a few book talkinvites to different campuses.

(56:44):
So if all goes as planned, youknow when the book comes out
mid-October, and ideally almostevery week, I'll be out of
planned.
You know the book comes outmid-October and ideally almost
every week I'll be out of town.
You know, doing a book talk indifferent campuses, which is
very much a blessing, right,like the whole idea of going on
a book tour to me again justsounds so real and I'm very
grateful because it's been.

(57:06):
I see it as a trajectory ofwork that now I get to be able
to share this with differentcommunities and, more
importantly, share it withimmigrant communities too that
have gone through similarexperiences and know what this
means for our communities.
So I'm really excited aboutthat.
But I'm also really justmentally, physically trying to
prepare for that, because whiletraveling and also really, you

(57:27):
know, just mentally, physicallytrying to prepare for that,
because, while traveling andvisiting new places sounds great
, it's also, you know, thinkingabout, you know share
responsibility with my partnerand my daughter and like all of
those things.
And then I'll still be teachingthis semester and so it's going
to be a busy semester, but I'mlooking forward to it and more

(57:55):
towards the future.
You know, again I'm looking.
I'll be applying for tenure inthe next two years Along those
lines.
I'm still working on a fewarticles that I want to.
I'll be submitting andpublishing that will go into my
portfolio and ideally it's notjust about a 10-year process.
But now that I'm four yearsinto being a professor, when I

(58:18):
started you go through this highanxiety.
Being at a place like ASU that'sa research one institution.
What that really means is thatour professors are mostly there
to research.
They are there to teach.
I teach two courses everysemester, but really what I'm
mostly being evaluated is on myresearch, right, and I love

(58:40):
teaching.
I could teach all day.
I could work with students allday, but the idea of sitting
alone or in isolation andwriting and, you know,
submitting all these things,that's been a challenge, right,
and I would always tell peoplethe joke that, like when I
started as a professor, I feltlike one of those old school
rappers, you know, like thatwould do the mixtapes and be,

(59:01):
like, you know, album comingsoon, and then, like that
album's like never coming out,right, that's how kind of how
being an academic feels thatyou're like, oh yeah, you know,
I'm working on all this research, I'm working on this work.
It's probably not going to bepublished for, like you know,
two, three years.
So, like, stay tuned for it,it's coming, it's coming, you
know, and so so I finally feellike you know, I've been

(59:41):
starting to publish much moreand things will be coming out.
So it's a good relief and allthat good stuff.
But, honestly, that startedseveral professional projects
but also community basedprojects that I'm working with
local communities where I livenow doing oral history projects,
public history projects, and sofor me, like what I'm also
looking forward to hopefullygetting tenure and having that

(01:00:04):
peace of mind is also to reallygrow, to call Arizona home right
, because I feel like we havegotten rooted here and we are
making community.
You know, this is where mydaughter's now primarily growing
up, so I want to really makethat a commitment to fostering
her growth and her developmentand her to be surrounded by a

(01:00:27):
community that is going tofoster her growth.
Just like earlier I mentionedthe you know kind of like the
mentoring of three.
You know I tend to think ofthat with other people too, so
even with our kids like puttingpeople and building community
around them that are going tolike support their growth, you
know, along the years, and so Ithink that's also the other

(01:00:47):
thing that I'm looking forwardto is just being able to feel
rooted, you know, and I don'tknow if Arizona is going to be
home forever, but you know it'ssomewhere where I'm committed to
, or committed to as a family,you know, for for the next few
years, where we want to grow andbuild and and, yeah, I think
that's that's another thing thatI'm really looking forward to

(01:01:09):
is just continuing to to buildcommunity and and and see our
family grow here Nice.

Raul Lopez (01:01:16):
Nice, awesome, and I hope you get to do a little
driving during your your booktour.

Rafael Martinez (01:01:19):
So yeah, no, actually I'm, I'm looking
forward to it.
Some of them will be fly outs,but for sure some of them will
be road trips and I'll make themroad trips.
Nice, awesome, awesome.

Well, usually around this time in the podcast, you
know I asked a question.
You know if you could go backand talk to your younger version
of yourself and give yourself apiece of advice.
What's something you tellyourself?

Yeah, that's a.
That's a really good questionand I remember listening to some
of your podcasts and some ofyour guests having really
insightful responses to that.
I feel like, honestly, thething that comes to mind when I
hear that question is I wouldtell myself to be less anxious

(01:02:09):
about the future.
And of course, it's easier saidthan done, you know, later on
in life than it was when you'regoing through all those things.
But I would say you know thatanxiety, you know sometimes that

(01:02:33):
anxiety, you know sometimes,you know sometimes we confuse
anxiety for resilience, right,because you know, sometimes out
of anxious moments, we have tobe resilient or we tap into our
resilience to get us to the nextlevel or get us to the next,
you know, step that we need toin life.
But we also, I think, in thoseanxious moments we also, I think
, sometimes fail to reallyappreciate and really think

(01:02:57):
through everything that we'reexperiencing.
Everything is just so I need tomake the next move, I need to
make the next decision that weforget to or don't have the
privilege of appreciating.
You know the good, the bad andall of the things that come with
our lived experience.
So, you know, I always look likewhen I look at youth sometimes

(01:03:19):
and I see their anxiety.
Like I talk to my students andthey're so worried about, you
know, getting that high payingjob and you know, being able to
fulfill their parents' dreamsand their expectations.
I see so much anxiety in ouryouth and I think a lot of that
anxiety is placed on our youth,starting with our parents, all

(01:03:44):
the way to you know, educatorsand other folks that interact
with youth, and I think one ofthe things that we just need to
do is know that we all developdifferently and that we all grow
in different ways.
And so if I were to talk tomyself, it's you know you're
playing the long game.
Don't be too anxious, right,Don't want anything.

(01:04:06):
You know too immediate, too soonand not that I wanted it, but
it could be very frustratingwhen you don't get results.
You know super quick, or yousee others and they have the
privilege to be able to getresults quicker than you do.
Myself is mostly to not be asanxious and take every step at a

(01:04:29):
time and know that you knowyou're working towards these
goals and you're taking thesteps and that you know those
things will come along.
So, yeah, that's what I wouldtell a younger version of myself
and also other people who arelistening to the podcast.
Younger people, is, you know.
Take everything one step at atime.

I would say yeah yeah, I mean, sometimes we gotta
live in the moment.
You know people, people don'trealize, um, being an adult is
the longest part of your life.
You know, it's, it's, you know.
So they're always trying togrow up man, and then you get
there and it's like, oh shit,when is this gonna end?
It's 60 years, holy crap.
Yeah, so no, it's, it's hard,man, but but no, I appreciate

(01:05:09):
that man.
And then uh, so ultimately youknow.
My last question too for you isyou know.
So how do you say success inSpanish?
You know what does success meanto you?

Yeah, that's, that's another great question
and that's why I love the, theconcept for your podcast so much
, because, again, I think itmeans different things to to
every everybody or two differentpeople, right, uh, but to me,
success I've always measuredsuccess by ideally, um, you know

(01:05:40):
, um being able to set goals foryourself that that are that are
realistic and that you couldaccomplish, and that you,
ideally, are always workingtowards next goals and that
you're fulfilled with thosegoals and that you continue to
try to meet the goals, whetherit be personal goals, career

(01:06:03):
goals, health goals, mentalhealth goals, career goals,
health goals, mental healthgoals.
You know we're always, you knowI feel like we're always
striving towards balance andsometimes there's moments in
life where you have that balanceand there's moments where you
don't.
Sometimes you know you'relacking in health, you're
lacking in mental health, or youknow you're doing really well

(01:06:25):
professionally, but you knowmaybe you need to do more health
conscious things, right?
So I think you know it's it'sas success to me is striving
like putting those next goals,but also finding that balance
and not again desesperandote orbeing frustrated to to

(01:06:46):
accomplish those things at anycost.
No, it's setting realisticgoals right, knowing that you
know, tomorrow I could possiblyrun two miles, but I can't run a
marathon yet.
Right, I need to work towardsthat marathon.
You know not to bring up NipseyHussle or anything, but you know
thinking about, you know wehave to take those realistic

(01:07:11):
goals.
And so for me, it's puttingthose goals and being realistic,
but also finding that balance.
And I define that success byhow close we come to at
particular moments, to havingbalance in our life.
And the best way that I thinkwe can measure that balance is
in our families.
Right, if our family's healthy,our family's happy and our

(01:07:35):
family has those goals in mind,then I think that you know that
puts us forward on thetrajectory that we need to be.
If our family's not, thenthat's when some of the issues
come up.
So I think that's, that's how Idefine success.

Nice, definitely, bro.
And yeah, I mean the the whole.
We got to run before you becomea.
You know, got to do a couple ofmiles before you do a marathon.
I mean I tell that all the time, you know, the little, little
progressive steps are going tobe progress in big steps later.
So uh, but thank you, thank youso much, you know.
Thank you for being here on thepodcast today.
Is there a website or somethingyou want to talk about for your

(01:08:13):
book or anything like that?

Yeah, I'll go ahead and share with you the
link for the book.
Where folks could access thebook, again, it's through the
University of Arizona Press.
You could order a pre-orderbook now.
It'll be available on hardcoveror paperback as well as ebook,
but I'll put the book.

(01:08:36):
That will lead to folks beingable to purchase the book as
well.
And again, it's called theLegalized Undocumented Youth
Movements in the United States,nice.

Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
I really appreciate you takingthe time and everybody else out
there.
Don't forget to cop thatmixtape when it comes out in
October.
Yeah, heck, yeah.

No, I, literally I'm going to walk up
on stage with with intro song.

You should have like the, the cover on like a record
and come out like with yourheadphones on.

There you go.
Parental advisory.

Yeah exactly.
That's awesome, man.
Well, well, thank you so muchand I you know I'm looking
forward to everything for you inthe future.
Brother, take care.

No, thank you for the invite.

Appreciate it and for everyone else.
Once again, thank you so muchfor joining me.
I hope we all continue to learnhow to taste existence bangles.

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Illegalized: Undocumented Success - Rafael Martinez

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Illegalized: Undocumented Success - Rafael Martinez