How a Startup CEO Uses AI to Help Brands Stay Visible in the Age of AI Search

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon Mest (00:00):
First of all, Google is not dead just because ChatGPT
and Perplexity exists like that.
That's something that people arekind of.
Yes, you're right there's thisAI kind of world where people
are very excited about it.
But last data I saw, which Icould trust, was that Google
still owns 97% of search.
So like Google's stilldominating search globally right
now.
And so yes, these AI tools arebecoming more and more prevalent

(00:22):
now, what that means for SEO,I'm sure we'll get to in a
second, but I think what'sinteresting though, as well
about Google is that they arealso very much leaning into the
idea that Google search as weknow it is gonna be changing.

Brooke (00:35):
Welcome to How I AI the podcast featuring real people,
real stories, and real AI inaction.
I'm Brooke Gramer, your host andguide on this journey into the
real world impact of artificialintelligence.
For over 15 years, I've workedin creative marketing events and
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(00:56):
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Follow the link in thedescription below to get

(02:02):
started.
Today's guest, Jon Mest, is adata scientist turned founder
who began his career in New Yorkon Wall Street as an analyst
before pivoting into tech wherehe now leads two companies in
the front lines of AIvisibility.
In our conversation, Jon breaksdown what it really means for

(02:23):
businesses when search shiftsfrom Google links to AI answers.
And how founders can adapt theirmarketing and publicity
strategies in real time.
We dive into the myths and thetruths of SEO, the rise of AI
answer engines, and how hisclients are getting traction by
rethinking PR and visibility inthis new landscape.

(02:45):
If you've ever wondered how tostay visible in an AI driven
world, this episode is going togive you a front row look at
what's coming next.
Alright, let's dive in.
Hello everyone.
Welcome to another episode ofHow I AI.
I'm your host, Brooke Gramer.
Today my guest is Jon Mest.

(03:06):
a data scientist turn foundernow leading Just Reach Out and
Chat Rank where he's helpingentrepreneurs navigate the shift
from traditional PR and Googlesearch into the new world of AI
visibility.
Welcome, Jon.

Jon Mest (03:21):
So much, Brooke.
Happy to be here.

Brooke (03:22):
I would love for you to share more a bit about yourself
and how you ended up where youare now.

Jon Mest (03:29):
Yeah.
My journey as you mentionedbriefly there is, quite
interesting, but, so yeah, datascientists by training really
loved the engineering and mathside of things, but then didn't
really know what I wanted to dowith my life.
So I moved to New York and wentto Wall Street and that was not
exactly the right fit for me,but um, I did learn a ton while
doing that.
And ultimately was able to kindof like grow into more of a role

(03:49):
in, you know, differenttechnology companies.
After my stint there started asa data scientist, kind of as a
developer, worked into product.
Eventually they were like, Hey,you seem pretty good at this.
Do you wanna go sell theproducts you're building?
So we went out on the road andstarted selling and then yeah,
kind of led to there.
I I've worn product hats tocustomer success.
And then more recently kind ofwith our team built out uh, Just
Reach Out and, and Chat Rank.

Brooke (04:09):
Well, I see myself in you, a bit of jack of all
trades, and I think that's thebest place to be, especially as
an entrepreneur and founder.
So take me back to thatbeginning where AI entered the
chat.
When did you start dabbling andbegin to lean into this
technology?

Jon Mest (04:30):
Yeah, I think like a lot of people that have been
frustrated when they're tryingto find some information and not
being able to get it cleanly oreasily through a traditional
search, that's just always beena, a struggle or a problem of
mine.
I always hated when I searchedfor something.
And I was given, you know, a lotof listicles or basically very
clearly sponsored posts orthings that were kind of getting

(04:50):
like thrown in my face asanswers to a question.
But frankly, I didn't need, Ididn't wanna read a 2000 word
blog post to the very end tojust find out that that's what
the answer I needed was theentire time.
Like I always just wanted theanswer.
I wanted to just kind of quicklybe able to grab things.
And so there's been shortcutsalong the way.
I mean, Wikipedia has alwaysbeen very helpful.
There's always been like kind ofways to get information to
people quickly online, butultimately what really kind of.

(05:12):
Opened my eyes to this was, Imean, when ChatGPT first became
a thing and I was out there andI was like, oh, you can just for
free, go online and just get theanswer to questions you have.
There was, there was somehiccups along the way.
They were, they were not perfectat the beginning, but I really
think that that was like afantastic kind of eye-opening
moment for me.
And then from there it was just,okay, well how can I use this to
help myself?
From like, everything fromretrieving information about you
know, how old some actor is Istill saw in a movie to all the

(05:34):
way to, you know, obviously nowhow I use it every day in our
lives as, as, as businessowners.
But yeah, really for me it wasjust that retrieval of
information and that shift inmyself to go from like, okay.
I'm asking a question or akeyword in a search engine to,
I'm asking a natural languagequestion to an answer engine.
Like I want the answer.
How do I best get the answeroutta these tools?

(05:55):
And then how do I use that kindof knowledge and thinking to
kind of build upon that and touse it to our advantage that,
again, throughout the, processof building our technology
companies.

Brooke (06:02):
This is a bit of a off the cuff question because I was
having this thought thismorning.
Do you remember Ask Jeeves andthat website was basically what
I feel like a lot of people turnto chat GPT to use for now, and
it was just maybe a little toofar ahead of its time.

Jon Mest (06:19):
Actually very fun.
You bring that up.
I was speaking with some, somecollege students yesterday
actually about, you know, theywere taking an AI class and PR
and it was just like it was justa fun conversation that we, we
were having and.
Clearly they're undergraduatesin, in college.
I'm a little older i'm in mythirties now.
And so I remember when Googlewas not the number one search
engine, there was Ask Jeeves,Yahoo, all of those, like all

(06:40):
Alta Vista, I mean like all ofthem.
And so I do remember loving AskJeeves'cause you could ask a
question.
You didn't have to write thosestupid keywords.
You could actually ask aquestion.
And I thought that was cool.
Obviously we all know how thisplayed out Google won, but yes,
absolutely, I do remember that.
And I actually mentioned thatyesterday and the day looked
like me.
Looked at me like I had fiveheads.
Like I remember the days beforeGoogle was dominant.
That was that was a tough oneto, to swallow.

Brooke (07:01):
That's so funny, and so here we are.
Now, today, and the hot topic oneverybody's mind is search
engine optimization.
it dead?
I've seen both sides of thestory.
I feel like I live in an AIbubble where it feels like
nobody's Googling anymore.
But the reality is people onChatGPT aren't even paying to

(07:25):
use it.
They're just using it on a dayto day until their credit's run
out.
obviously that shifts and moreusers are getting on the
platform every day.
But maybe you can break it downfor me, how many people are
really using.
LLMs in place of traditionalsearch engines.
How quick is that shift movingand is it something that is

(07:46):
really under the gun right nowwhen it comes to shifting our
marketing efforts?
I.

Jon Mest (07:52):
So very loaded question.
I'll try to address all three ofthose points.
First of all, Google is not deadjust because ChatGPT and
Perplexity exists like that.
That's something that people arekind of.
Yes, you're right.
There's this AI kind of worldwhere people are very excited
about it.
And of course, AI is the future,and I'll get to in a second,
like how Google's thinking aboutthis as well.
But last data I saw, which Icould trust, I know thinking

(08:14):
from SEM Rush or a HFS orwhatever was that Google still
owns 97% of search.
So Google's still dominatingsearch globally right now.
And so yes, these AI tools arebecoming more and more prevalent
and the fact that they're lost,like some share is kind of mind
boggling, but ultimately they,no, Google still owns the
majority of search.
Now, what that means for SEO,I'm sure we'll get to in a
second, but before that, I thinkwhat's interesting though, as

(08:35):
well about Google is that theyare also very much leaning into
the idea that Google search aswe know it is gonna be changing.
And so they are really kind of,obviously they have AI mode now
and they have the Google AIoverviews and you can just go
directly to Gemini and use thatas well.
But they, what they're realizingis that at least this is what
Sundar, Bacha, the CEO of Googlehas been mentioning at least I

(08:56):
heard it on a podcast thissummer with, with Lex Friedman.
He was talking about how they'regoing to kind of keep pushing AI
mode separate from traditionalGoogle search, learn what users
are really using well, what theyreally like, what they enjoy,
and what features seem to bereally kind of resonating with
users in AI mode.
And then importing them over toGoogle search one by one over
the course of the next, youknow, call it, I don't know if

(09:16):
it's gonna be six months or sixyears, it's gonna be kinda take
some time, I think.
But ultimately they're gonna bemoving these more AI forward
features into traditional Googlesearch.
So Google understands they havethe, the users right now, they
have the traffic.
They don't wanna lose that.
So they want to kinda slowlytransition people into this,
what is ultimately going to bethe future of search, which is
more towards what like, youknow, perplexity might be doing

(09:36):
right now.
And so Google understands this,they know it, and so they're
really leaning to this prettyhard.
What that means for, you know,SEO and what that means for like
the future of search definitelykind of has a lot to that.
We can talk about a lot ofpieces there.
I think the one thing I'llmention quickly, just as a
starting point to kick that offis just overall when you're
asking google a question that'sreally simple or you want to

(09:58):
kind of go get to like a verysimple answer.
I personally, I still go toGoogle for that.
So if I need to buy a new pairof running shoes, I'm gonna go
on and search like BrooksAdrenaline GTS size 12 and a
half like I do, I know exactlywhat I want.
I'm gonna search that intoGoogle find the people who are
selling the cheapest and thenjust buy'em like that.
That's like how I will still usea Google search to do that.
I don't need ChatGPT and AItotally to give me that because
I know what I need.

(10:18):
But if my two and a half yearold has a rash on his arm and I
don't know what that is, I needto take a picture of it and
describe it, like, and try tofigure out what that is before I
can call the pediatrician whenthey open in the morning.
That, to me is really importantto be able to kind of have that
insight.
Traditional Google can't dothat.
Like this is something that anAI tool will really, is really,
really, really helpful for.
So there's complicated, complexquestions that require a lot

(10:40):
more data information and morelike talking to an expert versus
just kind of getting like somesearch results.
That's where ai, it's likeanybody, like from somebody like
me that uses it every day to mymom who like barely knows what
it is, but kind of understandsthat piece of it.
Knows how the future of AIsearch is gonna be really,
really powerful for things thatare just not so simple to just
ask Google.
And so that is where we'reseeing things heading.

(11:00):
And I think over time it's kindof really transition most users
over time into that more AIversion of search, whether
that's with Google, perplexity,Claude like ChatGPT what?
We'll.

Brooke (11:12):
Interesting, and I've seen so many people online share
really quick.
Instagram reels of how to hackthe algorithm, how to create a
blog or reverse Google what yourkeywords and what questions
people are asking to find yourproduct.
And put this in your webpage andhide the code and.

(11:36):
All these workarounds to try toget placed on ChatGPT, so I'm
not really sure if Chat Ranksolves that problem, or maybe
you can bring me through casestudies of the best.
Use case for Chat Rank and howyou're able to quote, unquote,
hack the algorithm and getpeople visible in this day and

(11:58):
age where now we have so manydifferent ways to obtain
information in this AI space.

Jon Mest (12:06):
Yeah.
So I think the one thing to justpoint out here is just, just
like Google has never publiclytold everybody what their
algorithm is for how todetermine search results.
Like nobody really truly knowsthe exact answer, but.
Just in the same way that peoplehave been figuring out how to
like reverse engineer Google'salgorithm, with SEO and
traditional optimizationtechniques that we've been using
for 25 years now.

(12:27):
People are kind of taking thesame approach to the AI models.
So Chat Rank is not some magicbullet.
You press a button and it's allfixed.
That doesn't exist.
Because frankly we need to beadapting and adjusting to how
these models are changing overtime, just like you do with
traditional Google and SEO.
And so I just bring, I, I start.
With that just by saying like,there is no exact like magic
hack, so I'm not gonna, notgonna poo poo some of these

(12:49):
Instagram reels.
You might've seen that, like sayI have this magic bullet, but
frankly, any trick like hidingcode, any of these like black
hat ways of doing things whereyou put in white writing in the
bottom of the page, here's likeall that stuff that doesn't
work.
It might work for a couple days.
You might sneak it by the, thealgorithm for a week, but it's
not gonna work long term.
That is not ultimately a realactual way to do things.
And so frankly, we don't preachany of that and we don't really

(13:09):
focus any of our efforts on, onthose kinds of things.
The fundamentals of how to kindof improve your visibility over
time is very true and I'm happyto share.
I mean, there's nothing like,you know, proprietary to the
Chat Ranks overall idea of howthese things work.
What we do differently is kindof execution and how we kind of
can track and monitor that andmake sure we feel really good
about the results.

(13:30):
So ultimately, we talked aboutthis a little bit before, but
Google is more of like a searchengine.
So you kind of are, are givingit keywords so it can go use
those keywords and find whichpages should rank highest given
that set of keywords.
That's it.
That's like the idea of it.
I mean, there's a lot morecomplexity than that, but that's
a very high level.
That's kind of how a searchengine will work, and they have
an algorithm that says, okay,these are the pages that we
recommend based on, you know,other people saying these pages

(13:52):
are good through a backlinkprofile and through an authority
score and all those kinds ofthings.
Well, when you're talking to ananswer engine, you're not just
looking for a 10 blue links onpage one and then 10 more on
page two and 10 more on pagethree.
You're not just looking for liketrue ranking over the next like
thousand links.
What you're looking for isactually an answer, and so you
need to be listed as the answer.
So the way that these AI modelsthink and how they, they kind of

(14:13):
provide the answer is differentthan if they had to provide, you
know, 10, 20, 30, 50 links.
And so approaching the problemlike that is the first place
that we always tell businessesto start with is, okay, I need
to make sure my content, mywebsite, anything external to my
website, anything about my brandis helping to answer the
questions that my customers aregoing to ask in natural
language, in these AI tools.

(14:33):
That is like step one of any ofthis.
And so yes, there's a lot oftechniques you can use.
You mentioned a few of thoselike FAQs, question and answers
like, but there's a lot more youcan do with that.
I'm happy to share more details,but ultimately at the highest
level it really is about kind ofreframing how users are asking
for data now and information andhow the tools that they're
asking that information areproviding its answers and that

(14:54):
is ultimately what needs to befocused on and that's why.
The idea of SEO being dead, it'snot dead.
A lot of principles oftraditional SEO still matter.
Writing good content, makingsure your stuff really matters,
making sure you really have likeit doesn't matter that the back
links, but really just the brandmentions externally.
All that stuff really mattersstill.
It's just a matter of likereframing it to making sure that
you are the answer that thattool provide rather than just,

(15:14):
you know, one of the links.

Brooke (15:16):
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Thank you for going more intothat.
And I can imagine this hascompletely restructured a lot of
your clients' business models.
And even just the way that youwork on your team and the way

(16:01):
that you promote your businessesas well.
Maybe you can just share more onthe shift that you've made in
the last handful of years withall of these changes.
Or maybe you can share a casestudy of a client that found
success using this new model.

Jon Mest (16:18):
Here's a great example.
So it actually combines JustReach Out in Chat Rank in a way
that, that we know our clientslove to do as well.
But, so Just Reach Out.
It's all about, you know,getting pr and press for your
business.
Which is always like, anybodywants that and rather it's for
like a vanity metric like, oh, Igot quoted in this Goop article,
like listicle for the besttowels of the summer.
That's one way to do quoteunquote pr.
Also, it's like, hey, I wasinterviewed by the Wall Street

(16:39):
Journal to be a thought leaderand expert in this space that
they were writing an articleabout.
All that matters and knowsreally kind of do add value to
the business overall.
And so that's what Just ReachOut helps brands do is kind of
reach out to the media, telltheir story and try to get
themselves, you know, placedinto these, the content and then
Chat Rank obviously then kind oflike uses anything we can learn
about your brand throughout theinternet to then kind of see
what is driving you to rankbetter or be kind of a more

(17:02):
likely to be given as the answerto a question.
So those two are very, very muchlinked because you mentioned
before like writing a good blogand having good quality content
on your own pages.
That's ideal for like, we tell,tell people with Chat Rank for
kind of your own brand.
Ranking over time, because youknow that's content you can own,
you can tell it that's your,information.
You can really kind of own themessage and be exactly very

(17:22):
clear about what you want tosay.
Whereas if you go to the WallStreet Journal, Hey, it's
amazing they're gonna use you asan expert in their article, but
they ultimately hold the pen.
They're gonna write that articlehowever they want.
You need to make sure you fitinto that nicely.
So we have customers that arekind of finding different ways
of getting that, you know.
That social proof of externalsources giving you a credit for
what you already know to be trueabout what you do.
So here's a great example.

(17:43):
We have a customer, he's runsthis business.
It's a, it's a great like, kindof like a business where he
helps Amazon sellers.
Kind of help reduce fraud innegative reviews.
So I know this is a weird thing,but there are like somebody
gives you like a one star reviewon your Amazon product and it's
true.
You can't do anything aboutthat.
That's just customers giving youfeedback.
But there's a lot of fraud andactually like competitors and
people will just hire externalactors to basically buy your

(18:03):
product and then give younegative reviews on purpose.
It's actually quite easy to spotwith ai.
And so he figured this out andwas able to kind of detect these
bad actors.
And if you can find that, youcan submit it to Amazon and say,
Hey, listen, this is not a realreview, I know for a fact this
is a competitor doing this.
Here's how I know.
And they like, yep, you'reright.
And they get rid of theirreviews.
So his whole business is builtaround using AI to help
basically Amazon sellers not getrid of all negative reviews, but

(18:24):
get rid of, you know, thefraudulent and the bad ones that
are kind of breaking terms ofservice of Amazon.
Really smart business.
But, so he knows he's reallygood at this.
He knows he's built the onlyproduct in this space that can
scale and it's great.
They're doing really well.
What he's trying to do is get onpodcasts to tell people about
this and tell more Amazonsellers about this.
So in traditional Google, if youwanted to kind of help your
brand rank better and growwhat's called like your

(18:44):
authority scores or like thisdomain authority domain ranking,
depending on who you use, youwould actually have to go get
backlinks and get people tobacklink to your site.
The AI models don't really careabout backlinks.
They care about authoritativecontent.
That tells us a good story.
So he goes out on podcasts, thepodcast asks him questions
about, you know, what he'sdoing.
He answers them really well.
Those podcasts get posted ontoYouTube or wherever else that

(19:05):
they gets transcribed.
All of a sudden, the AI toolshave another third party source
kind of validating that they,what they're doing.
And it's working.
And so they can use that like intheir advantage.
So we'll see in Chat Rank thathis podcast episodes he's
booking through Just Reach Outare being used as citations as
to reasons why the AI models aresuggesting his brand is really
good at what he does.
Like that is something you canbe doing as a business owner to

(19:26):
really reinforce.
In this new world of ai, theydon't really necessarily need to
have that back link from theWall Street Journal.
It's great.
I mean, it's not gonna be like,of course, that that's an ideal
scenario, but going out,recording a podcast, putting it
on YouTube and getting thatexternal, like third party
validation on your brand andwhat you're doing is super
valuable.
And so that's the kind of thingsthat our businesses and our
customers are doing.
Kind of using our digital PR andalso tracking and monitoring

(19:48):
that over time, making sure thatwe're answering the right
questions and doing the rightthings with that content as
well.

Brooke (19:52):
Wow.
I'm so happy to hear that youshared a little bit more of a
case study.
I think it's important to leaninto stories when we're trying
to learn more about thistechnology and my next question
is a little bit morefuture-oriented I've been
reading up a lot about.
The future of agents and howeven e-commerce is shifting.

(20:17):
Just this week Stripe andanother major e-commerce
platform are taking steps to thepoint where.
You can skip the sales page andyour phone or your approved
system can make purchases onyour behalf.
And.

(20:37):
say the future is agentsshopping and purchasing from
other agents on behalf ofpeople.
I'm curious if you've read intothis at all this week and if
you've started planning for thefuture of where you see this
industry shifting yet again whenit comes to e-commerce and to
the point where we're not eventhe ones making our own

(20:58):
purchases anymore and agents aretaking and buying on our behalf.
Have you thought about that atall?

Jon Mest (21:04):
We have, and I'll give you actually.
I'll give you a story in asecond about a customer working
with, in this actually directspace.
But so first of all it was justnews this, the last few days
was, was around open ai,basically having this direct
shopping in ChatGPT now, I mean,they're starting with Etsy.
They'll be moving to Shopifypretty soon.
Like that is going to even makethis even easier for these
agents to kind of do exactlywhat you just described.
And so.

(21:25):
Obviously they're incentivizedto do this.
OpenAI is, but this is like whatthey are trying to kind of push
more towards is this world whereagents are going out there and
work doing these tasks, likepurchasing on behalf of you.
Now, why this is interesting,why I was smiling as you're
asking the question, is that wehave thought a lot about this is
because frankly, we actuallywork with a lot of cybersecurity
companies with our platform.
'cause they're trying to kind ofpromote what they do and the

(21:47):
security angle of that isincredibly credibly challenging
because if you are a businessowner, you want to allow these
AI agents to buy from youbecause frankly, like obviously
you wanna make it easier.
You don't wanna put barriers upto helping people buy your
products, but you also don'twant it to be fraudulent.
You don't want somebody juststealing credit card numbers and
all of a sudden having agentsbuying all over the place and
just giving this money.
So you have to like how do Ilike stop?

(22:09):
Agents, like bad agents, butallow good agents into my shop
at checkout experience.
That is not a trivial thing tothink about.
And honestly, for right now,that is a really, really tough
problem to solve.
So you can either ignore theproblem entirely and then all of
a sudden you might have a bunchof fraudulent purchases on your,
on your books and all of asudden you're not getting these
chargebacks and it's terriblefor your business.
But also you don't wanna hurtthat that future of, you know,
shopping if it's gonna make iteasier for people to kind of do

(22:30):
what they need to do.
And so I'm a little torn on it.
I would love the ability to kindof have my, like online grocery
delivery, just replenish andlike, just have it do that, but
not just automate it, but havemy agent, actually assess what I
need and then go do it.
Like, that sounds amazing to me.
I would love to not have to goto the grocery store on Sunday
night, but at the same time whatthat means for the future of
search visibility.
Truly that's what we're focusingon right now with Chat Rank.

(22:52):
It's making sure brands can befront and center and visible in
this new world of online AIshopping.
That's obviously like a very,very major thing of what we're
doing.
So this news recently about Etsyand Shopify, obviously we've
known this was coming, but thisis obviously a big thing for our
clients now.
But actually the nuance of thisin this from a cyber world is
also something we're thinkingabout a lot about because our
clients, frankly, are the onestrying to get the word out about

(23:13):
that and using our tools to helpto do that as well.
So it's good and bad and like weneed to make sure we're kinda
doing this smartly.
Otherwise it's gonna get outtahand pretty quickly.

Brooke (23:20):
It's great to hear that you already have partners in
cybersecurity and are thinking alot about that and shifting and
adapting.
So it sounds like you're on theright track.
I'm excited to see what's nextfor, Chat Rank.
And I wanna switch gears alittle bit more to the PR angle
of Just Reach Out and youmentioned a little bit about it

(23:41):
already, some case studies and.
I find this so fascinatingbecause a couple of my clients
are in the PR industry andobviously they do a really great
job at getting these articlespublished and working with
editors hand in hand.
And I personally see thatindustry shifting very quickly

(24:02):
soon.
and they're scrambling to try tofigure out this auto summary
that you get when you search forsomething versus maybe a New
York Times article as the numberone SEO search.
So maybe you can share moreabout the future of PR and a
little bit more of the successof Just Reach Out and how you

(24:23):
see that shifting even more soin the next six months to a
year.

Jon Mest (24:28):
Yeah.
And I promise we are, we at JustReach Out are not anti PR
agency.
That is not like what we'repreaching here.
So I just wanna make that clear.
We think agencies are reallyvaluable for what they provide
and what they do.
Just Reach Out does not have aneditor at the Wall Street
Journal in our back pocket tocall and say, Hey, we should get
somebody into this, thispublication.
That's not what we do.
But what we've learned over timeis that there are a lot of
businesses that either don't,can't afford an agency, or.

(24:51):
They can afford it, but theyactually choose to not go that
route because they actually wantto be able to tell their own
story and pitch themselves.
So Just Reach Out.
It's an efficiency platform.
It's basically helping brandsusing ai, identify and build
your media list smartly based onwho's actually writing content.
Or talking about content onYouTube or podcasts or whatever
it might be.
Who actually is out thereproviding content on your

(25:11):
topics?
We have an AI search platform tohelp you figure that out and
then build your media list basedon not, you know, the, the 30
names in our list that say theywrite about tech in New York and
I mean that's not all thathelpful.
What you want is to actuallyknow, this journalist wrote
about my direct competitor twoweeks ago and did a feature.
I need to know that.
And then I need to reach out to'em immediately and say, well, I
don't want you to talk about metoo.
And so like that's what JustReach Out helps our clients do

(25:32):
is figure out.
What, who those people are andhow to smartly build that media
list based on what people areactually writing.
So instead of reaching out to,you know, 3000 people, you're
reaching out to 30, I dunno,whatever the number is, of
highly targeted journalists.
And then you can use ourplatform.
You could say, okay, we now knowthat article you wrote two weeks
ago about my competitor is why Iwanna reach out to you.
Well, how can our AI help youcraft a message and a story and

(25:54):
build your kind of message tothat journalist in a way that
sounds really good and makes youfeel good.
It's not doing it automatically,it's not press a button and AI
just pitches for you.
That's like, those tools existby the way.
They, they're terrible.
Like they're just spammy.
That's not helpful for theindustry of pr, that's just,
just spam.
What we do is we have AI helpyou as a business owner craft
that story and that pitch.
'cause we know kind of whatworks the pitch, you know, your

(26:14):
story and like that combinationis what really helps there.
And we help make sure that getsinto the inbox or the kind of
into the person that, that mightbe telling that story.
And so Just Reach Out is reallyhelping brands.
Figure out like who to reach outto efficiently and then really,
really nicely write thempersonalized emails and notes
because you're not reaching outto 3000 names on the list and
praying and praying.
You're actually reaching out toa targeted group of people that

(26:35):
have written about your topicrecently.
And so that's kind of how JustReach Out operates for the
future of pr.
I think that's what we're tryingto really like lean into.
Authentic storytelling is nevergoing away.
AI cannot replace that.
And so if you are a brand andyou don't have a good story to
tell, you're not gonna getpress.
Whether you use a reallyexpensive PR agency or Just
Reach Out, it doesn't reallymatter.
If you don't have a good storyto tell, it's not gonna do well
for you.

(26:55):
What does do well is kind ofidentifying who I am as a brand,
what we're trying to get outthere, what our story can be and
why that's interesting.
So matching that story to theaudience of the outlet you're
pitching, like that's obviouslywhat we're preaching so the core
fundamentals of publicity and PRhave not changed, but frankly
more and more businesses arekind of saying, well, with the E
of AI and kinda making this moreefficient, can I go out there

(27:17):
and tell my story as best as Ican?
'cause frankly, nobody can tellyour story as better than you
can.
It's your story.
So go out and do that, and if Ican help you do that with our
software and kind of the tricksand things we've learned, that's
great and that's what we'refocusing on.
And we're not anti agency in anyway.
Actually, frankly, a lot of PRagencies use our software.
It's because it's aboutauthentic storytelling and can
use AI to make things moreefficient for you as you kind of
tell that story effectively.

Brooke (27:38):
Interesting.
My next follow up question forthat is say you are using this
platform as an individual.
And do you send your pitchthrough the platform to the
editors?
What's the success rate foropens?
Because the PR teams I've workedwith have even already started

(28:02):
to receive feedback that peoplecan tell when content is AI
generated.
M dashes are getting better, butthey really had a moment.
I'm curious, like what thefeedback has been with these
quote unquote AI generated or AIpolished and assisted media
pitches.
Is there good feedback andsuccess?

Jon Mest (28:22):
Yeah.
So this is kind of something Iwas talking about before, our AI
helps our customers craftmessaging, but it doesn't write
the emails.
It doesn't actually like do thepitching.
What it does is says Hey, whenyou write an email, you need to
relate to the journalists, makesure that you understand,
they've written an article aboutyour competitor.
Great.
Relate to that.
Make sure that you are kind offollowing that guideline.
Okay.
I saw you wrote this article i'mtheir competitor.
Here's why you should talk tome.

(28:43):
We're gonna set the standardthen make your pitch obviously.
And then like a call to action.
It's pretty straightforward.
Like we're just our AI.
Helps people that would'vewritten this 17 paragraph email.
Understand that, no, no.
You need to make it crisp,concise, to the point.
You're just trying to get thatresponse of, basically you want
your best chance of Just ReachOut is to get the response of,
tell me more.
Like, I want to learn more aboutyour story.
Let's go figure this out and seeif it's something we could tell

(29:04):
to our audience here as ajournalist.
And so that's what we're focusedon overall.
Now, so.
Ai, writing is getting better,but frankly, we don't allow,
it's a fundamental principle, wedon't allow you as a user and
Just Reach Out to send anythingthat AI writes.
At all.
You have to review it, look atit and like deal with it.
It doesn't just let you do that.
But it does actually send outthrough our platform, but
through your email.

(29:24):
So it does come out from you.
It's you sending it, but we justmake it easier for you.
Kind of handhold it, like foryou to do that.
So I, I tell you, Just Reach Outis more about like preventing
our customers from making themistakes that we've made in our
past, like I personally madewhen trying to pitch media web
before, Just Reach Out.
Knowing, learning what we'velearned over time.
The business has been around fora while now, learning what we've
learned over time to see whatworks.
We're just helping ourcustomers.

(29:44):
Make sure you use those coreprinciples of pr, what agencies
know to be true and then usethat in the platforms.
Like we even have a PRmasterclass, built into our
platform.
You can, it's totally optional,but it's there you can just go
through and learn how to write apitch, how to think about, like
journal, all the kind of stuffis there.
It's just about teaching themthe PR fundamentals that they
can do themselves now.
Frankly, you still have to dothe work yourself.
You still have to have a goodstory.

(30:04):
So when it comes to like openrates, response rates, all that
stuff, our, our metrics aregreat.
Like our open rates are wellover 50% and our response rates
are around 10% for ourcustomers.
So, I mean, if, you know prthat's like way, way above
industry averages for coldemails, for basically cold out
outreach.
And it's because you're not justsending out 3000 emails with a
very generic message.
If you're emailing directly tojournalists that you know, cover
your topic that have writtenabout it recently, and you have

(30:26):
a good story to tell them, andyou tell that in a way that they
can really, easily and conciselysee, this is a story that might
be interesting to me, and that'sit.
And so some of our customers doway better than that.
Some of'em do like worse thanthat, but frankly, the ones that
do worse are the ones thatdidn't have a good story to tell
from the beginning.
And the ones that do better, theones that have a fantastic story
and are really kind of leaninginto that pretty hard.
And so that's what we are seeingand from our data and from our
customers.
And I think that is, again,that's what PR is about.

(30:49):
It's about telling a good story.

Brooke (30:51):
I can see why so many PR agencies wanna use this tool
because it's giving all theinformation.
It's really skipping the step ofthem having to reach out to the
editors that they haverelationships with and ask, what
are you working on?
Or just assume the same storiesare gonna run every season and
you're able to in real time.

(31:12):
Bring all this data together andthe pitch is hyper specific, so
that's incredible.
And so when they pull a medialist, they're, your contacts are
updated regularly.
Do you use AI to search andupdate the contacts in your
database?

Jon Mest (31:27):
So I'm gonna tell you a dirty secret, which it's not
really a secret.
We tell our customers this too,but this is the one thing that
AI like.
Yes, it, it can help to makesure their contacts are updated.
But this is where we actuallyhave a team of people, of real
humans that go in and manuallycheck every time you send an
email and Just Reach Out, wecheck, okay, did this person
still work at that publication?
Is this still the email listedon their website?
Like on their, on their profile,every, that kind of stuff.
But we have that informationdone.

(31:49):
So we use AI to kinda do thefirst pass.
Once that's done, we doublecheck with a real human because
we really care about, again, youlike focusing in on getting
that, that message out to thatjournalist.
So like, again, we're not, wewouldn't do that if we allowed
you to send like, you know,10,000 emails to like a ma
massive list.
The whole idea is send 20, 30highly targeted emails and we'll
spend the time to go manuallyverify the emails on those

(32:10):
people are still correct.
They're still at thatpublication, there covering
these stories.

Brooke (32:14):
Wow, that is so important.
I'm so happy to hear that.
I know that's a really big painpoint for a lot of publicists
and people that are pitching.
Themselves.
So that's incredible that theyhave a team of people at their
fingertips doing that duediligence.
Um, What's next for you?
You know, an incredibleentrepreneur.

(32:35):
You've really leaned into thisworld of AI visibility from
search engine, Google search pr,you already started to work on
another project and ideatewhat's next for you?
Or maybe there's something thatyou wish was out there in your
industry that if you waved amagic wand and used AI to create

(32:57):
are you already thinking what'snext?

Jon Mest (33:01):
We are.
So we actually, our team haslike a few businesses that we
own and operate.
We also have an incubation armwhere we kind of like play
around with some ideas and thinkabout things.
And the way we usually do thatis, it's actually pretty simple.
I dunno why I would've mentionedthis, but we didn't raise
venture for these, these, thesebusinesses.
Like these are justbootstrapped, we are just here
building customer by customer.
Try to figure out what ourcustomers need building for
them, and if they pay us, that'show we live to see tomorrow.

(33:22):
And if they don't, then we don'texist tomorrow.
That's the philosophy we liveby.
And so frankly, when we do this,we are like very, very tuned
into the customer and what theyneed.
Because frankly, like I said, ifthey, if we don't answer what
they need, we're not gonna getpaid and we're not gonna have a
business tomorrow.
And so we lean into that prettyhard with like, what do we do
next?
Well, we're actually out theresearching, working with
different companies in ournetwork or people we know, or
people referring to us like,Hey, I have this problem.

(33:45):
Could you guys help us solvethis with ai?
It's almost like a, Hey, I havethis old problem, this problem
that's been like bogging us forfive years and I just can't
figure it out.
Is there an AI solution to thisproblem?
And we do kind of this likeone-off consulting work, which
it's not part of our corebusiness.
It's just like a side hustle forus, and we get paid to do it.
But like that is really whatsparks, okay, well if they have
this problem, should we think ofother people have this problem
and then figure out if, can welike, kind of reproduce that

(34:07):
problem for others?
And then kind of see are thereother things that could be
similar?
And is that a business, is thatjust a quick like project?
I don't know.
So that's kind of how weidentify what those things could
be is like what are peoplelooking to solve With ai now our
team of engineers is excellent,we're really good at kind of
solving these problems.
So it's almost like a consultingservice turned.
Okay.
Is that now, once it's done, isthat now a product or is that
now a, you know, a just aone-off thing and from there

(34:29):
obviously we kind of look towhat is next for us?
And so it shouldn't be that muchof a shock, but right now the
whole marketing stack is pretty,and I hate the word, use the
word disruptive, like it's verydisruptable.
It seems to be this is the kindof the future of where things
are going with ai.
Like, and again, this is theopposite of like spamming people
with like ai, like automatedemails.
That's the opposite of whatwe're trying to do.
It's more like, okay, I'm abrand and I wanna really make

(34:51):
sure that my brand is wellrepresented out there.
So the way you do that is youhire a marketing agency, they
get you commercials on tv andthey write your content and they
run your website.
They do all these things that amarketing agency does.
We think that those agencies canreally, really be optimized
using some AI tools and some AIfeatures.
And so again, we're not tryingto replace agencies.
We're not trying to competeagainst them.
We're actually partnering withthem and trying to figure out

(35:13):
what are the ways that we can behelping these agencies be
smarter about the marketingthey're already doing and not
replace the humans, but use thehumans to be more efficient with
what they're already doing.
And that's our goal here.
So we have some things in thehopper that'll hopefully be out,
like, you know, call it earlynext year around like kind of
continuing to build that quoteunquote marketing stack for our
like AI driven initiatives.
But really like with the ideathat.
Marketing agencies, they knowthis stuff inside and out, they

(35:35):
just don't really know how touse AI very well.
Let's see if we can help themkind of bridge that gap.
But we're already starting to dothat.
Obviously Chat Rank is like the,call it the GEO or like the new
SSEO of the future type of, ofversion of this.
But there's a lot more of thatwe can be doing and we're really
excited about some of thepartnerships we're building
around that.

Brooke (35:49):
That is exciting.
That's really my reasoning forasking that question is to spark
ideas, and even if someonelistening here wants to create a
solution, I just think it's sucha fun time to start leaning into
these problems and solutions andhave the tech and engineering at

(36:09):
our fingertips.
I just had a interview beforeyou with a woman who used Bolt
New to just vibe, code herunique problem set into a
solution.
Such exciting times.
You spoke just a second agoabout bootstrapping.
I think that's also a reallyinteresting conversation.
If you wanna share maybe a fewminutes about your experience of

(36:33):
bootstrapping because we are inthe age of.
Yeah, can be a tech founder andpeople are leaning into being a
first time founder and makingthose decisions in the
beginning.
Do I wanna bootstrap or do Iwanna do a seed round and look
for investors?
So maybe you can share aboutyour personal decision and any

(36:58):
words of advice for someonewanting to lean into that route.

Jon Mest (37:01):
Yeah, it's a bit, a bit of a loaded question, but I,
I promise I'll, I'll get to agood answer by the end.
'cause I really do feel prettypassionately about this.
I've actually have an interviewcoming up here pretty soon, just
to talk about this in general,with the local paper here in St.
Pete because it's such a momentfor.
Anybody can start a business,but like, frankly, it's hard to
raise funding.
Like, how do I just think aboutthis and not necessarily have to
raise funding?
Should I raise money?
All these kinds of questions.

(37:21):
So I in my career have workedfor bootstrapped companies and
for venture backed companies,and I personally just love the,
the hustle nature of working ata bootstrap company.
Just the idea that if I don'tsell this company today, and if
we don't make our customers ahundred percent satisfied that
they're gonna sign up andcontinue paying us, like then we
don't exist tomorrow I thrive inthat.
I know that's, that might not befor everybody, but for me at

(37:43):
least, that's really where I'veseen to be successful.
I worked at a company in NewYork called 10 10 Data.
They started with literally justtwo guys in a, in a room in 2000
just building things and it took'em 15 years till 2015 till they
really kind of blew it up anddid really well.
But that business sold for$500million in in 2015.
And that was, again, they didn'traise venture that was just
slowly over 15 years buildingcustomer by customer.

(38:04):
Really smart.
They had amazing technology andamazing team.
That was one of the most funthings I've ever done in my
career was helping them scalethat.
When they got sold and that dayhappened, like that was a party
it's quite a party to kind of beable to see that come to
fruition.
I think it's a long time and alot of work to get there.
I've also worked at venturebacked companies, and it's just
like when you have the money,you spend it,, maybe you're not
being so efficient, maybe you'renot really thinking about the

(38:24):
right things.
And so for me personally, I lovethe idea of bootstrapping.
I, I have a friend here in this,this incubator rehab here in St.
Pete that he gave a great quotethe other day that I'm gonna
steal that I'm gonna take creditfor it.
But basically he said thatcompanies are much more likely
to die from indigestion thanstarvation.
And so when you get all thismoney, you're gonna spend it and
frankly, you're gonna like losesight of what you're trying to
do and lose sight of thecustomer and lose sight of what

(38:45):
you're trying to focus on.
So.
All to say, I'll pause there fora second.
That is not to say that ventureis not good and you shouldn't
raise money or you shouldn'tthink about funding.
'cause a lot of businesses needit and it can be really, really
effective and really, reallyvaluable to do it that way.
For us personally, I think incertain industries or certain
spaces, when you raise that kindof money, like we don't need a
lot of money to do what we weredoing.
We built a solution.

(39:06):
With customers paying us to doit, which is obviously that's
not easy to do, but thatrequires, like, if they're
willing to put their credit carddown and actually pay you to do
it, that shows they're serious.
That shows that they reallywanna do it.
And so for us, we only wannabuild things that people are
willing to pay for.
And so to do that, that's likethe bootstrap mindset that we
take.
And for anybody else that canlike vibe code a product and see
Hey, I think this could be likereally interesting.
I want to get out there and doit.

(39:27):
My advice would be don't just gotry to raise money on that idea.
Go try to sell it a coupletimes, and if it works and
you're like, wow, there's likeso much demand.
Everybody wants this, and yeah,go raise money and go take it to
the moon and go and go do that.
I'm not saying that venture isbad or that raising money is
bad, but I see too many peoplekind of have these ideas,
especially in the world of AIwhere money's just flying around
left and right and people aretrying to invest in Chat Rank
and what we're doing.

(39:48):
Frankly, that's not what we'reinterested in.
People were willing to give themoney to go build stuff.
Then you lose sight of whatyou're actually trying to do and
what customers need.
And for us, we're gonna continuestaying focused on the customer
and what they need and whatthey're willing to pay for.
And by doing that, and if you'rea customer, like thinking about
starting a company or being afirst time founder, that's my
advice to you is go try to sellit to one person.
Can you get convinced, oneperson to pay you for what

(40:09):
you're providing, and if yes,you are onto something, if you,
if it takes you six months, youhaven't sold a single deal, I, I
have a feeling it's not gonna,it might not work out.
It's like you'd rather learnthat first before you go out,
raise a bunch of money, spendall that time raising money,
disappoint some friends andfamily or whatever other venture
investors that you might workingwith.
For me, I know it's along-winded answer, but that
really is what we strive on, ismaking sure that every day we

(40:29):
are focused on what we're doingat our customers.
Because if we don't, we don'texist tomorrow.
And that, that's really, reallyimportant.

Brooke (40:36):
Beautiful words to share.
That might have stolen thethunder a bit from my wrap up
question where I always like towhat's what?
It's one main takeaway you'dlove listeners to get from this
episode.
That was already an amazing one,but maybe there's another one in
your back pocket that has maybemore focus on you as a founder

(40:57):
or leaning into technology somaybe you can share a bit more
on that for your final keytakeaway.

Jon Mest (41:05):
I think overall we, we've touched on a couple of
these pieces, but I'll kind ofsummarize it here.
As a business owner, as afounder, as a team, we're just
going out and trying things andwe know this is not like a,
we're not just building likemetal bolts for a machine.
We're not building a very simplething that requires like
manufacturing efficiency.
We're working in a space wherethese LLMs are changing rapidly.
If open AI changes their, likethe tuning on one of their

(41:26):
models, everything we've donefor the past six weeks might be
thrown out the window.
That is challenging.
It's crazy.
It's different we have to stayon top of things.
And so for us, what we reallytry to lead into is listening to
our customers, staying on top ofwhat's happening and the
technology that we're buildingon, and really, really focus on
what it is that we're buildingis what the people need.
And then leaning into thatreally, really hard.
And so for us, the takeaway isjust like.

(41:48):
Don't lose sight of what you'rebuilding and why you're building
it, and also making sure thatwhat you're doing still matters
as technology changes,especially in the world of ai.
There's a chance, I'm not sayingthere, it's likely, but there's
a chance that LLMs, these ideaof these like chat models just
goes away in two years.
Like we're just in a differentphase of what AI can be.
For us, it's fully agent andthere's no more like asking
ChatGPT, anything I don't thinkthat's happening in two years,

(42:09):
but it could, and again, that'sthis thing like then all of a
sudden, like what Chat Rank istoday?
If we just try to fast forwardto two years would just not
exist.
It just would be pointless.
And so like the idea here isthat you really need to kind of
lean into and focus on whatyou're doing, what needs to be
building and why based on the,given the technology constraints
and what your customers arewilling to pay for.
It's not easy.
That is what we really try tolike look at every single day

(42:29):
and do.
And we actually have a weeklyFriday morning call with our
entire team to kind of resetevery week to be like, okay.
What are we building?
What are customers asking for?
Or is that aligned and what'sthe technology changes happening
right now?
Is anything new come out thisweek?
We just kind of reset everyFriday morning for an hour to
kind of think about that.
And that just requires us tokind of think about these things
a lot.
And I could say if any, anyupcoming founder or somebody

(42:49):
thinking about this space,please just remember that it's,
it's not easy, and it's not justlike a straightforward path.
It's gonna be changing all thetime.

Brooke (42:58):
Nice.
I thank you for that.
Final key takeaway, quickquestion that just came to me
because listeners might beinterested.
What's it like working in anincubator?
And maybe you can touch on thetech scene in St.
Pete, Florida.

Jon Mest (43:14):
Yeah, it's, it's actually a lot of fun.
So we have the, the ArcInnovation Center here in St.
Pete.
Arc investments.
Kathy Wood, she moved her hedgefund down from New York City
down to St.
Pete a few years ago and kind ofhelped with the city and the
county fund tech incubator here.
She's been famous for, you know,her tech innovation funds Tesla
and everything else that she'sbeen investing in over the
years.
So yeah, she runs this.
She's chairman of the board.

(43:34):
Our office is right next to theTampa Bay here in the water.
And so a lot of maritime anddefense technology here, because
again, you can be doing watertesting, you can be doing like,
types of robotics work.
And so being here has been a lotof fun to kind of just see the
different types of companies.
So there's a lot of, you know.
B2B SaaS businesses like ours,there are a lot of software
businesses.
There are a lot of, you know,more hardware and robotics
businesses.
They have a makerspace here.

(43:55):
Like we have like a very largemilitary presence here.
So a lot of defense tech, a lotof water and technology, a lot
of AI around here as well.
It's been really fun to justkind of see like-minded
individuals coming together.
Every Thursday we just, like thewhole incubator sits down for,
again, an hour and a half andjust has a brainstorm.
There's really, there's never anagenda.
It's just sit down and talkabout whatever people are
thinking about at the moment.
St.
Pete is not traditionally a techcity.

(44:15):
But I mean, neither wasNashville or Austin or some of
these places were before, youknow, a few years ago too.
And so they're kind of buildingit here o over time, and it,
it's not like huge by any means.
I lived in New York for a longtime and just like seeing what
New York Tech scene is likecompared to here, it's obviously
different.
But what they're building hereis really, really strong and I'm
excited to kind of be a part ofit.

Brooke (44:34):
I ask because a lot of people from Miami seem to be
wanting to move to moreaffordable cities within
Florida,

Jon Mest (44:43):
Yeah.

Brooke (44:43):
one of them.
Absolutely.
That.
On the rise and has been for thepast few years.
So much construction, incrediblethings going out there.
So thank you so much for yourtime today.
This was a very well-roundeddiscussion and for allowing me
to ask just off the cuffquestions that I had in my
personal work experience and Iknow that people are really like

(45:04):
wanting to know the answers to.
So, in conclusion now, how canlisteners reach out to you?
How can they find out more aboutChat Rank and Just Reach Out?
What's the best way to get incontact with you for next steps?

Jon Mest (45:22):
Yeah.
By all means, please check usout.
It's Just Reach Out.io, soJ-U-S-T-R-E-A-C-H-O-U t.io as
well as Chat Rank.ai.
Those are our two websites.
Check us out, learn more aboutthem.
You can obviously contact usthrough both of those pages to
schedule demos or talk moreabout it.
Or if you're just interested in,in reaching out to me, please
do.
I am Jon JO n@chatrank.ai.

(45:43):
It's the best way to get intouch with me.
It's been a lot of fun.
Kind of learning from this and,and, and kind of seeing where
this could go and overall, weare building, we are doing new
things.
If you have projects or you'rekind of like, Hey, I have this
really annoying problem, I betAI could solve it.
Reach out, please.
This is what we're focusing on.
This is what we're doing.
And you never know.
You might be the lead lighthousecustomer in our newest next
business, so we, you'll neverknow.
It could be really exciting.

Brooke (46:04):
You never know.

Jon Mest (46:06):
Mm-hmm.

Brooke (46:07):
Thank you so much, Jon.
I appreciate your time.

Jon Mest (46:10):
Thanks Brooke.
Appreciate it.

Brooke (46:13):
Wow I hope today's episode opened your mind to
what's possible with AI.
Do you have a cool use case onhow you're using AI and wanna
share it?
DM me.
I'd love to hear more andfeature you on my next podcast.
Until next time, here's toworking smarter, not harder.
See you on the next episode ofHow I AI.
This episode was made possiblein partnership with the

(46:35):
Collective AI, a communitydesigned to help entrepreneurs,
creators, and professionalsseamlessly integrate AI into
their workflows.
One of the biggest game changersin my own AI journey was joining
this space.
It's where I learned, connectedand truly enhanced my
understanding of what's possiblewith ai.

(46:56):
And the best part, they offermultiple membership levels to
meet you where you are.
Whether you want to DIY, your AIlearning or work with a
personalized AI consultant foryour business, The Collective
has you covered.
Learn more and sign up using myexclusive link in the show
notes.

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