February 4, 2025 • 43 mins
Andy Hunter is the founder CEO of bookshop.Org
In todday's episode, he talks about his innovative solution to save indie bookstore.
Quoting the New York Times, “The rapid rise of Bookshop.org during the shutdown has been hailed as a boon for independent stores.” B-Labs announced the company as one of the “best for the world,” and in the top 5% of all B-Corps.
The business model is brilliant on so many levels, and I can’t wait for you to hear what he has to share.
Andy is also the co-creator of the websites: Literary Hub, Electric Literature, Crime Reads, and BookMarks - combined annual readership of about 30 million people. And, worked as an independent publisher at Catapult, Counterpoint and Soft Skull Press.
Subscribe on Apple Podcast , Spotify or YouTube.
Let’s connect!
Subscribe to my newsletter: Time To Live: Thriving in Business and Beyond
Website: https://www.annemcginty.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annemcginty
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annemcgintyhost
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McEntee, your host,and today we have Andy Hunter,
the founder CEO of Bookshoporg,on the show to talk about his
innovative solution to saveindie bookstores.
Quoting the New York Times, therapid rise of bookshoporg
(00:27):
during the shutdown has beenhailed as a boon for independent
stores.
B-labs announced the company asone of the best for the world
and in the top 5% of all B Corps.
The business model is brillianton so many levels and I can't
wait for you to hear what he hasto share.
Andy is also the co-creator ofthe website's Literary Hub
(00:52):
Electric Literature, crime Raidsand Bookmarks, with combined
annual readership of about 30million people.
Andy has worked as anindependent publisher at
Catapult, counterpoint and SoftSkull Press.
You can find a link through tohis business in the episode's
description.
Don't forget to hit thesubscribe button wherever you
(01:17):
listen to podcasts and pleaseshare it with a friend to help
me reach more listeners' ears.
Let's get started.
It with a friend to help mereach more listeners' ears,
let's get started.
Thank you to our listeners forbeing here today.
Hi Andy, thanks for coming onthe show.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So can you tell us what the moment was?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
or maybe the collection of moments that
inspired you to startbookshoporg.
Yeah, sure, it was definitely acollection of moments.
I was in the book industry,doing publishing and doing like
book websites, and I watched asAmazon grew from 15% of all
books sold to over 50% of allbooks sold, and I watched as
about half of the independentbookstores in the country went
(02:05):
out of business during those 15years and the whole time I was
like why doesn't somebody dosomething to help these
independent bookstores, likesell books online and fight
against Amazon?
People buy more and more thingsonline.
That's not a trend that you'regoing to be able to stop.
So you got to build somethingthat allows independent
(02:25):
bookstores to sell their booksonline to their customers and so
their customers can supportthem instead of going into the
waiting arms of Amazon for alltheir book purchases.
And after waiting for somebodysmarter and better than me to do
it for about 12 years, Ifinally decided to try to do it
myself, and the rest was history.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Once you decided that you were going to try to solve
this problem, what were thefirst steps that you took to
turn this idea into a reality?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, well, the very first step was to buy a six pack
of beer and stay up for sixhours one evening writing down
every idea that I had.
I didn't, I don't think Ifinished the six pack, so I
would say it's a probably athree beer idea, but for
whatever reason, it just got thejuices flowing.
(03:17):
I played loud music.
I just wrote my way to asolution.
I started with, like theproblems.
I started with some basic ideas, but I didn't have the full
idea for the platform until theend of that night.
And at the end of that night Ihad a plan that was very, very
similar to what I ended uplaunching with.
(03:38):
Once I had the plan all writtendown, I edited it, I passed it
to a friend whose wife was adesigner.
They worked together ontransforming it into a deck, and
then I started the arduous andincredibly difficult and
depressing phase of fundraisingfor it.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Can you tell us a little bit about what that was
like?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Well, it was a tricky experience because I was asking
, I was trying to raise $1.2million and that sounds like a
lot of money.
But if you're saying I want tocompete with Amazon and I'm
going to do it with $1.2 million, most investors don't think you
havea chance Because, as oneinvestor said to me, competing
with Amazon is not a businessplan.
(04:23):
Another investor said Americanconsumers only care about two
things they care about price andthey care about speed.
And unless you can beat Amazonon price and speed, you don't
have a chance.
And this guy was actuallyrepresenting a whole group of
investors and they all droppedout after they heard him say
that Not only was I trying tocompete with Amazon, but I was
(04:44):
also doing it with a kind ofeveryone take all model where,
like, the profits are sharedaround with all the different
stakeholders.
So I wasn't offering anopportunity to like, oh, you're
going to get a hundred timesreturn because we are going to
dominate the book market and weare going to win.
It was more like we're going tosave independent bookstores and
(05:06):
we're going to give away mostof our profits to them, and
investors aren't like sign me up, take my money.
That sounds great.
It was tons of rejection, but Idid manage to cobble together a
group of about seven or eightinvestors who loved local
bookstores, who thought thatthis was worth a try.
And it took me about a year anda half and there were
(05:26):
definitely times where it wasfelt like very lonely and like I
should just give up because atthat point it was just me and my
deck going to meeting aftermeeting after meeting.
But it finally worked out and Iraised about $775,000, which
wasn't quite $1.2 million, butat that point I felt like, well,
(05:47):
this is just barely enough thatI think I can build it for this
amount.
And so we did.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And once you got that funding, how did you get to
work?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, well, I found some freelance engineers, a dev
shop called Happy Fun Corp whoemployed some friends of mine
who were willing to build it forme, and I felt like I had the
right sensibility and came upwith a plan to use an open
source platform to build it.
And I hired my first employee,this guy, david Rose, who was
(06:19):
very well-connected among NewYork City publishers and also
had like a great sales mind, andso I had a partner in crime,
which is really important.
It's really important formorale and to kind of keep going
every day.
You've just got someone to talkto and somebody that's in it
with you.
It's easier.
So the process then became like,on one hand, building the
(06:42):
platform making sure it works,building it as fast as we can,
and, on the other hand, buildingthe platform making sure it
works, building it as fast as wecan, and, on the other hand,
building support for the idea inthe publishing industry and
with booksellers, because I hadto get the trade organization
for booksellers to embrace theidea and support it, because we
didn't want to go into the worldof bookstores and say, hey, we
(07:05):
want to help you and have themall be like, well, who are you
and how can we trust you?
So we had to build trust, andthat took a long time too.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And what did you find were the most effective
strategies in building thattrust?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Going to trade shows and meeting key players, finding
out who the influential voiceswere in the community and
getting to know them, putting ina lot of face time that was
really the most important thingand engaging with skeptics head
on.
The moment I would hearsomebody was skeptical, or the
(07:41):
moment that I was in a group andthere were skeptical questions
being thrown at me, I would justrush into it.
I really believed in what wewere trying to do.
I wanted to answer all theirquestions.
I wanted to hear theirskepticism and let them know why
I thought it wasn't justifiedand why I thought we could win
together.
And so really confronting ithead on, being as transparent as
(08:04):
possible and just being genuineand putting in the face time,
not being afraid of conflict.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I love your business model.
I admire it.
I think it's very innovativeand it solves a real problem.
I mean, all of us want to saveour indie bookstores, but you
are the first person I've heardof who is actively doing
anything about it.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Thank you?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
How?
Now is bookshoporg competingwith Amazon?
How are you taking that marketshare?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, well, you know it's.
It's a number of things, but Ithink the most important one is
through the power of smallcommunities.
So a story that I sometimestell is about six weeks before
we launched, I woke up at threein the morning with the burning
(08:56):
urge to figure out how manycustomers I needed in order to
break even.
And so I started doing themental math and I realized I
needed 375,000 customers tobreak even, and I had about six
months of runway to get there.
And that moment was likecrushing, because I was like, oh
my God, like I'm a fool, who amI kidding?
Where am I going to get 375,000customers from?
(09:18):
Like a start of zero in sixmonths?
Like where are they going tocome from, et cetera.
Now what I realized is that Icould approach communities that
could all bring their followers,they can bring their fans, they
can bring their customers.
So creating 375,000 customersis a matter of getting you know
(09:44):
3,000 communities that have anaverage of 125 customers each
right.
And so getting independentbookstores to use the platform
was a major one, because theindependent bookstores would
tell their customers hey, shopfor us at bookshoporg.
Also, getting newsorganizations and media
organizations to sign up for ouraffiliate program so that, like
(10:08):
Condé Nast, magazines now linkto bookshoporg, new York Times
links to bookshoporg when theywrite about books.
It's right next to the Amazonbuy on Amazon button, this buy
on bookshoporg button.
They bring customers inOrganizations and they bring
customers in organizationsliterary magazines, arts
organizations, book clubs, like.
We pay a 10% affiliatecommission for everybody that
(10:31):
brings in a customer.
So even podcasts.
There are podcasts out therethat make thousands of dollars a
year by using bookshop linkswhen they promote books on their
podcasts and so just by doing aton of outreach to communities
and having those communitiesbring in their customers.
That was the biggest impact andthat continues to be how we
(10:52):
grow.
Because we rely on a lot ofword of mouth.
We don't have any real moneyfor serious direct to consumer
advertising, like a lot ofdirect to consumer brands do a
lot of Facebook ads andInstagram ads.
We don't have the money forthat because we remit our
profits to local bookstores.
So we sent $34 million to localbookstores.
(11:12):
That's $34 million that wecouldn't spend on digital ads.
So we rely on word of mouth.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Very grassroots approach.
I like it Gets everybodyinvolved.
So what are the challenges thatyou have faced in uniting
independent bookstores underbookshoporg's mission?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Well, you know, I alluded to the biggest challenge
in the beginning, which wasgetting booksellers to trust us
and, like bookstore owners, didnot get into the business
because they love the internetand they want to be selling
books online.
Right, they want to be handingpeople books, they want to be
browsing and perusing books,they want to be arranging their
shelves.
A lot of them don't really likethe internet and don't like
(11:55):
online shopping.
They consider it a threat,right, they want to have real
world connections with people intheir communities.
So getting them to believe thatactually having a online sales
strategy was important to theirbusinesses and could help them.
That was a huge hurdle, but wecould succeed by making money
(12:16):
for them.
It's easier to convince peoplethat what you're doing for them
is good if you're sending themchecks for like $3,000, $5,000,
then they start to say, actually, maybe this isn't such a bad
thing, maybe this is good and welaunched during the pandemic,
or we launched six weeks beforethe pandemic.
So when the pandemic happened,a lot of the stores need to sell
(12:38):
books online, so they reallyjumped on board.
On the customer side of it, wehave to tell customers that
there's something more importantthan like paying 50 cents less
or getting a book same daydelivery and waiting two days
Like.
We deliver books really fast.
Most of our books get tocustomers within three to four
(12:59):
days, but Amazon is faster.
We discount our books and someof them have really good deals,
and occasionally we beat.
Amazon is faster.
We discount our books and someof them have really good deals,
and occasionally we beat Amazonon price, but most of the time
books on Amazon are a little bitmore expensive.
So why?
Why shop at bookshoporg?
Answering that question is amajor hurdle, but there are a
lot of people that buy organicgroceries, they buy from local
(13:22):
farms, they buy power for theirhomes that is generated from
renewable resources.
There are a lot of people whoare socially conscious, that
understand that the money thatthey put out in the world, how
they purchase, how they consume,is actually setting the stage
for the world that they're goingto live in, the future that the
children are going to live in,and so if they make socially
(13:45):
conscious choices, then they'rehelping pave the way for a
better future, and for me that'sa future where you can go
downtown and go to your localbookstore.
So getting consumers on boardand getting them to be willing
to make some sacrifices andgetting the bookstores on board,
making them embrace e-commerce.
Those were the two biggestturtles.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
And I think that you're right, though, that
there's a large enoughpercentage of the population
that cares about keepingcommunities small and local and
keeping our bookstores open aswell.
Can you share some insightsinto the backend of what it's
like to operate bookshoporg'sbusiness structure?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah Well, we try to be really lean, because the more
bloat we have, the less moneywe can actually send to the
bookstores.
So we have only 40 employees.
We earn more than a milliondollars in revenue per employee,
which is very rare forcompanies to have that kind of
ratio.
We're fully remote.
(14:48):
We started right before thepandemic, so we were subletting
some office space.
We let that sublet go, westarted hiring people from all
over the country and by the timepeople started going back to
the office, we had a team thatwas spread out everywhere.
We even have an employee inBarcelona, so we're never going
back to an office.
(15:10):
So we do a lot of work on Slackand we are scrappy, which means
that, like people don't havevery well-defined roles.
They help out where they can.
You know, we have like a lot ofwork to do at all times.
Unfortunately, it's not like aneasy job.
Nobody's coasting but it's alsovery rewarding, because we're
(15:32):
constantly hearing from storesthat are very grateful for our
existence and so many stores,like every week, some store will
say like thank you so much,like we wouldn't have made it
through the season if it hadn'tbeen for you.
That kind of thing reallymotivates us and energizes us.
So we're all just kind ofworking asynchronously and
(15:53):
trying to come up with cleverstrategies that we can grow, and
grow organically.
What was it like for youfinding a distributor to?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
partner with.
What was it like for youfinding a distributor to partner
with?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Well, that was easy, actually, because, for better or
for worse, in the US there isreally one big
direct-to-consumer bookdistributor, which is Ingram.
Now, amazon, of course, hastheir own warehouses and they're
shipping books to customers allthe time, but Ingram is by far
the largest book distributor inthe US that isn't Amazon, and
(16:26):
they supply to independentbookstores, they supply to
libraries, they supply to Barnesand Noble.
So I already knew about thembecause I was in book publishing
and so I was able to go theremake a presentation.
Fortunately, they were reallyreceptive to the presentation
and got on board right away.
It was easier to get Ingram onboard than it was to get my
investors on board, for example,so they were very supportive
(16:49):
and they've been a great partnersince, and they have warehouses
all over the country.
That's one of the things thatallows us to be competitive with
Amazon is like a smallbookstore might only have 1500
books in stock, so we can't relyon the inventories of small
bookstores to satisfy the wholecountry.
And right now I talked about375,000 customers before.
(17:12):
Now we have 3 million customersand they all want different
kinds of books, right.
So we have six warehousesthrough Ingram, and now we have
other wholesalers too.
So it's not just Ingram now,and we're shipping books to
people every single day.
We're shipping tens ofthousands of books every single
day from all these wholesalepartners.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
What an incredible journey this has been for you.
So for consumers who might notknow, and a lot of listeners
might not know, and I love tojust have transparency that is
helpful for learning.
Can you break down the typicalprofit margins for a book and
explain how the sales price isdistributed among the author,
(17:54):
the publisher, the distributorand then the platform?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yes.
So there's three different waysthat you can sell a book on
bookshop and they each havedifferent splits.
So number one is if a bookstoresells a book, so let's say
you're on your bookstore'smailing list or you're following
them on Instagram and they'relike buy this book, and they put
a link out there In that casewe don't take any money at all.
So the entire profit margingoes to the bookstore, because
(18:21):
that's our mission and we're amission-based business, so we're
not in it to, you know, make abig profit for ourselves.
We try to keep the bookstoresin business.
Now, the second way that youcan buy a book is if you buy it
through an affiliate link, andthat could be if you go to the
New York Times or the AtlanticMagazine or your local book club
, or if an author has a bookshopaffiliate page, et cetera.
(18:42):
In that case we will give theaffiliate 10% and we will give
10% to the bookstore and we willkeep 10% for ourself and then
we have a seven or 10% discountand then the remaining 60% goes
to cost.
It pays the publisher pays forthe shipping, pays for Ingram,
(19:04):
et cetera.
So the profit margin isbasically divided evenly three
ways, because we're rewardingeverybody in the process.
If a book club is like we wantto support local bookstores,
we're going to use bookshoplinks instead of having our
members go to Amazon, we want tohelp them out.
So if they become affiliateseven if it's just to pay for
their pizza when they havemeetings like, we'll kick them
(19:27):
back something.
We're kind of spreading thewealth around all the different
players.
If New York Times or theAtlantic Magazine is cool enough
to want to use bookshoporglinks on their pages, we want to
help support their booksjournalism, so we'll give them a
10% kickback.
And Amazon has an affiliateprogram for books, but it's only
four and a half percent, soit's better for them.
(19:49):
Now there is a third way you canbuy a book, which is if you
just go straight to bookshoporg,don't choose a bookstore and
buy a book and then leave.
In that case, a third of theprofit goes to the independent
bookstores through a profitsharing pool and two thirds of
the profit goes to supportbookshoporg, and that's kind of
how we pay our bills.
(20:09):
Is those direct sales.
So it's really three differentways.
If you buy from a bookstore,they get all the money.
If you buy from an affiliate,we split it three ways.
If you buy directly frombookshop, we give a third to the
bookstores and two thirds go tokeeping bookshop going.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
It sounds like a very comprehensive plan that you've
put together In the five yearsor so that you've been running
this.
What are some of the mistakesthat you've made along the way?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, that's a good, really good question.
I mean, I think in thebeginning we weren't ready for
our growth.
We had four people on staff andme and I had a full-time job at
the time and we grew very, veryfast.
So in the beginning it was youknow, it's a nice problem to
(20:57):
have, but we were reallyunderstaffed.
We basically never slept andhad to work out all of our
customer service issues and kindof what they how they say build
the plane while it was inflight.
That was really tough.
Not investing in things likesetting up sales tax in 50
(21:18):
states, because I was like, well, it's going to be years before
we have to do sales tax in all50 states, but it turned out to
be six weeks before we get to dosales tax in all 50 states, but
it turned out to be six weeksbefore we had to do sales tax in
all 50 states.
Investing in a professionalcustomer service platform so
that our customer service waswell organized and we could
onboard new customer servicereps, et cetera All the
(21:39):
infrastructure stuff that Ithought wasn't important enough
to do right in the beginningended up being very important to
do, and so, yeah, a little bitmore preparatory work would have
been nice and I think ingeneral, one thing that is very
(22:00):
important, that is perhaps moreuniversal, is like finding the
right people for the roles.
You want to start your businesswith the people who you want to
work with for the next 10 years, who you have got a great
communication relationships withand who are hungry and
ambitious and want to learn andwant to grow and are committed.
So there's a temptation, whenyou're growing fast or when
(22:20):
you're just getting started, tojust like fill the role so you
can move on, and generally Ithink that's a mistake.
Like you have to be very, verycareful who you bring on,
because that team is going to bethe team that either makes you
successful or not.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
And that is so relevant to the episode that's
dropping just a couple beforeyours, because I interviewed
Jeff Smart, who is known asprobably the world's top expert
on hiring, and he also says it'snot really the what of the
company.
More often than not it's thewho problems and it's getting
the team right.
So it sounds like you figuredthat out earlier than a lot of
(22:56):
other people do so.
With such a comprehensiveexperience in the publishing
industry, what are your thoughtson the current state of
publishing?
What are your thoughts on thecurrent state?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
of publishing.
Well, it's a super interestingtime.
I think the good news is that alot of people are still buying
books, people are still reading,and the evolution of things
like TikTok and the huge demandfor books through things like
BookTok have been really greatto see.
So it's a really strongindustry and it's remained
(23:29):
strong and there have been like,for some reason, everybody
always wants to say like nobodyreads anymore and like the book
industry is on the precipice ofdisaster, and I've been hearing
that for 15 years now, and so Inow take it with a grain of salt
.
I think people lovestorytelling, they love books, a
lot of people love to read, andit's moving online, like the
(23:49):
culture of reading is goingonline in a way that I think is
definitely more positive thannegative.
The dangers that I see are thatAmazon is still super dominant
in the space they sell probablyseven out of every 10 books in
the US are sold by Amazon and Ithink books are something that
(24:10):
are so important to culture andso important, ultimately, to
humanity and the evolution ofour consciousness and our
society, and to have one companyin charge of them all, having
kind of almost a monopoly onthem, is dangerous, because of
course course they decide whatbooks have put in front of
people.
(24:30):
You know, I don't think thatthey're benevolent in how they
promote books, but all they careabout is money.
They don't care about thecontent of the books, they care
about selling as many aspossible and it's all
algorithmic.
So we're trying to push for amore human version of
bookselling that is in the handsof people In this, and they do
(24:52):
a much better job of bringingimportant new books and book
discovery than big e-commerceretailers.
(25:13):
And then I think the otherthing that makes me a little
nervous about the way the bookindustry is evolving is that
it's becoming more of ahit-based business.
There used to be what they calla mid-list author, which is like
a whole ton of books that wouldsell in a mid range of 10,000
to 100,000 copies, and that haskind of been hollowed out.
(25:34):
And now, I think, because booksgo viral on the internet and get
so big on the internet, likeeverybody is reading the same
books, which means that there'sless room at the top.
The books that are doing reallywell have a ton of readers, and
you have some authors likeColleen Hoover that dominates
seven out of 10 bestseller slotswhen they're popular.
(25:56):
So the problem with that isthat it crowds out a lot of
worthwhile books that alsodeserve to be read.
So I think that that's aproblem that we still have to
solve is how to help with bookdiscovery, how to help books
that are really worth readingsurface to the top and create a
(26:16):
more diverse discussion aroundbooks, rather than like TikTok
driving like another mega bookthat sells a million copies
every month.
Like I, would much rather havea healthy environment where
there were 100 books eachselling 10,000 copies in a month
, that were filled with diversevoices and really interesting
ideas and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, quality over quantity and I think with the
increase in AI, we're going tocontinue to have to figure out
how to filter through all ofthis noise.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, I think we're on the cusp of like a giant kind
of gray goo of AI generatedbooks that are good enough to
like for no one to kind ofunderstand that they're AI, and
a lot of people are trying togame the system.
Luckily, most of that'shappening on Amazon, not on
bookshoporg, so Amazon can tryto solve that problem first, but
(27:09):
it is something that we'reworried about.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah.
So, speaking of worthwhilebooks and maybe some that are
not on the bestseller list, whatare some of the best books that
you've read recently and whatmakes them stand out to you?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Well, I read a book called Hum by Helen Phillips,
which was you know, it's set inthe future.
It's and what makes them standout to you by walking around and
kind of acting like trafficcops and nannies and shopping
assistants and all kinds ofthings and it's about a Brooklyn
mother who is trying to makethe best decisions for kids in a
(27:57):
world that is like all digitalmarketing and facial recognition
technology and no escape fromalways being on and always being
connected, and she's trying tobreak her kids free of that.
But in doing so she ends upmaking them vulnerable to this
kind of horrible disaster whereher kids get lost and then she
(28:20):
goes viral for having lost herkids and is shamed.
And it's an intense book, butit's often funny.
It's really really sharp, superinteresting.
Again, it's called Hum.
I love that one, and right nowI'm reading a book called Liars
by Sarah Manguso, which is abook about a failed marriage
(28:41):
that is incredibly riveting andimpactful.
It's definitely like it doesn'treflect well on the guy in the
marriage and so if you don'tlike, if you are feeling
defensive about your role inyour marriage, then it might not
be a good book to read, butit's like, really on point,
really, really gripping bookabout kind of dissolution of a
(29:04):
marriage that has a lot ofuniversal truths in it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Well, it sounds like both of those have some overlap
to lives that many of us may beliving, so I'll have to check
those out.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, I think parents trying to navigate shared
responsibilities and usher yourkids into the future in like a
safe, positive way.
It's tough and obviously welook to books and literature to
pass forward and to increase ourunderstanding, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I've got a stack of about 20books on my nightstand and it
looks like you've got I don'tknow how many hundreds of books
there behind you.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, too many, too many for me to ever read, I
think.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
So I'm curious to know I know you recognize the
problem with e-commercenegatively impacting indie
bookstores.
Have you noticed any otherproblems like that in the world
that maybe someone listening inmight be inspired to try and
solve?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Oh yeah, I mean, I think in general, we're talking
about the need for humancommunity in an age where we're
all sort of having our brainshijacked by some of the smartest
people on earth who understandbehavioral psychology and
understand electronics, andthey're all trying to build
(30:24):
addiction machines for us.
And it's very easy to be like,oh well, I want to build the
next addiction machine, like Iwant to have a viral app or I
want to have something thateverybody like, that has the
highest usage rates, et cetera,everybody that has the highest
usage rates, et cetera, etcetera.
And so what I encourage peopleto do is embrace the
countertrend, which is aboutforging real human connections
(30:51):
between people, whether that'sby helping real brick-and-mortar
, small local businesses likebookstores, that bookshoporg is,
or just helping people findconnection with their families,
with their friends, helpingpeople find local activities,
charities, group activities,things that make people feel
less lonely, less isolated,things that build social bonds
(31:14):
and kind of tap into whatactually makes humans happy,
because the thing about like ourmodern era is that like it
seems like we're a lot lesshappy, like even the more
convenient things are, the morewe don't have to leave our
houses to get our groceries andwe don't have to like, actually
interface with actual humanbeings.
Every little little convenientmoment that we have adds up to a
(31:39):
life of disconnection, and sowe need to consciously decouple
from that, and we need people tocome up with innovative ways to
not like say all technology isbad, because I'm a firm believer
you can't fight the trend.
You can't say the answer is tonot have a phone or the answer
is to throw away all yourtechnology and go off the grid,
(32:01):
because most people can't dothat.
Maybe that's the answer for 1%of people, but for the other,
99% of people, find ways thattechnology can constructively
help them and kind of leadpeople back to a saner and
happier way of living.
That's, I think, the biggestopportunity that I want a new
generation of entrepreneurs andcreative thinkers to come up
(32:23):
with.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Well, and let's say that that just sparks an idea
for somebody.
What are some lessons thatyou've learned from your
entrepreneurial journey that youalso think that they could
benefit from knowing?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, well, I think one thing is like start, like
don't wait for all the stars toalign.
I tried to raise $1.2 million.
I couldn't raise it.
If I had decided that I wasn'tgoing to start until I raised
the amount of money I thought Ineeded, I never would have
started.
I just started with what I hadand that means, like tomorrow,
(33:01):
start working.
If you have an hour, you canstart working, whether it's on a
prototype or an idea or a pitch, whatever, or your new website,
just start, just start working.
It all gets so much easier onceyou start, and the conditions
are never perfect, so you kindof make your own conditions by
(33:21):
just getting started.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Sometimes people they get nervous or fearful.
It feels so big to go from nothaving a business to now
launching bookshoporg.
I mean that seems like a giantstep.
But it's like what you'resaying.
Just if you have an hour, movea little bit towards the
direction of where you're goingand not to stress so much about
(33:43):
the big leap you're trying tomake.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yes, and part of that is about embracing the
possibility of failure.
Like you have to be ready tofail.
When I first started it, I waslike, well, this is like taking
a shot of the Death Star.
Like, of course you'll probablyget blown up, but you have to
try to take a shot of the DeathStar.
If nobody does, then the DeathStar is going to win.
And so, like we're going totake our shot and see what
(34:09):
happens.
Failing is really an iterativeprocess.
Right, you want to fail overand over again, because every
time that you fail, you learn alittle bit more and you get a
little better.
So you want to give yourselfthe room to fail.
If you're so afraid of failurethat you can't get started or
you can't ever like go publicwith whatever your idea is, then
it's really going to hinder you.
(34:30):
It's going to keep you fromever making some of your dreams
real.
So you have to understand that,yeah, you're going to fail and
you're going to move on andyou're going to overcome your
failures.
And every successful person yousee out there, every person who
has, like done all the thingsthat you want to be able to do,
I guarantee you they wentthrough failure after failure.
(34:51):
They were embarrassed atcertain points, they were
humiliated at certain points,but they kept going and they got
better.
And so, like understanding thatthat's part of the process and
embracing it, that's another biglesson.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
It's so important to normalize failure.
It's not even failure, it'slike a mistake, it's a stepping
stone.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yeah, I like one thing when bookshop launched, I
decided to put the amount ofmoney we raised for bookstores
at the top of every page on thesite.
I was inspired by sites likeGoFundMe where you can see oh,
they've raised $25,000.
And if I add $100 and I can seethe amount go up.
So I wanted that on Bookshop.
But I understood that thatmeant that if we did poorly,
(35:36):
everybody would know If weweren't selling any books, and
that number was like we raised$150 for bookstores.
It would be embarrassing, butwe did it anyway and in the
first month it was kind of anembarrassing figure.
It was $50,000 at the end ofthe first month and there was a
podcast about the book industrywhere they went on and they were
(35:57):
like, yeah, bookshoporg, itseemed like a great idea, but it
doesn't seem like they're doingthat much because they only
have raised $50,000.
I was like, oh my God, it'sbeen one month, but this is
exactly the nightmare that Ithought would happen, where
people think we're a failure,they haven't given us a chance
yet.
When we started really takingoff, we had people sharing on
Twitter and social media all thetime like, oh my God, Bookshop
(36:20):
has raised a half milliondollars.
Oh my God, Bookshop has alreadyraised a million dollars and
people got really excited aboutthat number.
Keep going up and going up.
When we hit 10 million, when wehad 25 million, there were so
many people celebrating ushitting those milestones.
So putting that on there didexpose us to lots of
(36:41):
embarrassment and made anyfailure that we had very public,
but it also gave the public achance to rally around us and
when we started doing well, itwas a huge motivator for people.
So putting it out there andexposing ourselves to potential
embarrassment was like a reallykey part of something that ended
up being a big success driverfor us.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, people love transparency.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
It's like a point of real connection.
So just for a closing questionhere, I've got so many more
questions that I'd like to ask.
But I also know that listeners,they really only have a certain
amount of time before they haveto move on to the rest of their
lives.
So as a closing question here,if you could go back and talk
(37:26):
with yourself when you were inyour early twenties, what life
wisdom would you give yourselfunrelated to business?
Speaker 2 (37:35):
The most important thing I would say is like, stop
being intimidated by people andgo and do what you think you're
capable of, or what you want tobe capable of.
Make it happen.
I think I wasted a certainamount of time because I went to
state schools Like I didn'tcome from you know any money and
(37:57):
I didn't have a great educationand I wanted to go into media
but I would never have likeapplied for those jobs or gone
for it because I felt like, oh,those you know that's people who
have gone to Harvard would getthat job at Condé Nast or
whatever, whatever my dreamwould be.
(38:18):
And it took me a long time toget that kind of confidence.
To start, like, I created myown magazine.
I was, I guess, 25 when I didthat and I started building up
confidence by watching itsucceed.
But it was still about 10 yearsbefore I realized, oh, like
there aren't a whole ton ofpeople who are much better at
(38:40):
this than I am, like everybodyis just struggling along with
some successes.
They all have to learn, theyall are going through the
similar challenges as you are,and so to kind of just give
yourself permission to beambitious and not undercut
yourself, and understand thatyou're capable of doing whatever
(39:06):
you want to do, no matter whereyou came from or what you've
done up to that point.
I think that was that would bethe most important thing.
It would probably save me likea decade of noodling around.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah, I think that's incredible advice.
I think a lot of people,especially now the younger
generation, as they enter theworkforce, they're feeling a bit
lost and the opportunities thatthey thought would be there for
them are not necessarily soyeah.
Yeah Well, andy, thank you somuch for sharing your story with
(39:39):
us.
It is a real inspiration andyour solution is so innovative.
Love the business model and I'mvery grateful for your time, so
thank you for coming on.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Today's key takeaways .
If there's a problem in theworld that really needs fixing,
don't wait for someone else tosolve it.
Consider the possibility thatyou could create the solution.
Successful businesses solveproblems, so start noticing them
, write them down, thenbrainstorm steps you could take
(40:19):
to build solutions.
If your idea requires funding,prepare for a journey, create a
pitch deck with the help of adesigner and be ready for
rejection.
It's part of the process.
It took Andy a year and a halfto cobble together a group of
(40:40):
investors who believed in hismission and invested just under
65% of what he was hoping toraise.
If you need help developing asite for your innovative
business idea, check out HappyFun Corp, the company that
helped Andy build outbookshoporg.
Having the right partner incrime, so to speak, is really
important for morale and forwardmomentum.
(41:02):
Build support for the idea inthe related industry and start
establishing trust.
Go to trade shows, meet keyplayers and influential voices
in the community and put in alot of FaceTime.
Be transparent and genuine.
There is power in smallcommunities and, when it comes
(41:24):
to growth, think small to go big.
When faced with the dauntingtask of finding 375,000
customers within six months,andy decided to focus on
building 3,000 key relationshipswith indie bookstores, media
outlets and organizations andbook clubs, who would then share
(41:46):
bookshoporg with their about125 customers.
Each Spend time finding theright people for the roles,
because it's your team who iseither going to make you
successful or not.
Team who is either going tomake you successful or not.
There's a current problem in thebook selling marketplace, and
that's that only a handful ofbooks make it to the top selling
(42:07):
spots.
So there's a need to help withbook discovery, to help books
that are really worth readingsurface to the top.
Maybe this is a business foryou.
There's also a need for humancommunity in the world.
Embrace the counter trend andlook for business opportunities
that could help people feel lesslonely and less isolated in an
(42:31):
increasingly digital world.
What makes humans happy?
What can be done to bringpeople back to a saner and
happier way of living?
Don't wait for all the stars toalign before you get started.
Tomorrow, for example, startworking.
If you have an hour, startworking.
(42:51):
Have an idea, start working onit.
The conditions are neverperfect, so make your own
conditions and get started.
Be ready to fail over and overagain and learn Every person who
has done all of the things youwant to do.
They've gone through failureafter failure and probably a
(43:12):
moment or two of embarrassment.
Welcome the failure, welcomethe embarrassment.
It's part of the process.
Don't be intimidated by people.
Go and do what you think you'recapable of, or what you want to
be capable of.
There are not a ton of peoplewho are better than you, so
don't fool yourself intothinking so.
(43:34):
Lastly, you're capable of doingwhat you want, no matter where
you're starting from, so go,make it happen.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McEntee, your host,and today we have Andy Hunter,
the founder CEO of Bookshoporg,on the show to talk about his
innovative solution to saveindie bookstores.
Quoting the New York Times, therapid rise of bookshoporg
(00:27):
during the shutdown has beenhailed as a boon for independent
stores.
B-labs announced the company asone of the best for the world
and in the top 5% of all B Corps.
The business model is brillianton so many levels and I can't
wait for you to hear what he hasto share.
Andy is also the co-creator ofthe website's Literary Hub
(00:52):
Electric Literature, crime Raidsand Bookmarks, with combined
annual readership of about 30million people.
Andy has worked as anindependent publisher at
Catapult, counterpoint and SoftSkull Press.
You can find a link through tohis business in the episode's
description.
Don't forget to hit thesubscribe button wherever you
(01:17):
listen to podcasts and pleaseshare it with a friend to help
me reach more listeners' ears.
Let's get started.
It with a friend to help mereach more listeners' ears,
let's get started.
Thank you to our listeners forbeing here today.
Hi Andy, thanks for coming onthe show.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So can you tell us what the moment was?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
or maybe the collection of moments that
inspired you to startbookshoporg.
Yeah, sure, it was definitely acollection of moments.
I was in the book industry,doing publishing and doing like
book websites, and I watched asAmazon grew from 15% of all
books sold to over 50% of allbooks sold, and I watched as
about half of the independentbookstores in the country went
(02:05):
out of business during those 15years and the whole time I was
like why doesn't somebody dosomething to help these
independent bookstores, likesell books online and fight
against Amazon?
People buy more and more thingsonline.
That's not a trend that you'regoing to be able to stop.
So you got to build somethingthat allows independent
(02:25):
bookstores to sell their booksonline to their customers and so
their customers can supportthem instead of going into the
waiting arms of Amazon for alltheir book purchases.
And after waiting for somebodysmarter and better than me to do
it for about 12 years, Ifinally decided to try to do it
myself, and the rest was history.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Once you decided that you were going to try to solve
this problem, what were thefirst steps that you took to
turn this idea into a reality?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, well, the very first step was to buy a six pack
of beer and stay up for sixhours one evening writing down
every idea that I had.
I didn't, I don't think Ifinished the six pack, so I
would say it's a probably athree beer idea, but for
whatever reason, it just got thejuices flowing.
(03:17):
I played loud music.
I just wrote my way to asolution.
I started with, like theproblems.
I started with some basic ideas, but I didn't have the full
idea for the platform until theend of that night.
And at the end of that night Ihad a plan that was very, very
similar to what I ended uplaunching with.
(03:38):
Once I had the plan all writtendown, I edited it, I passed it
to a friend whose wife was adesigner.
They worked together ontransforming it into a deck, and
then I started the arduous andincredibly difficult and
depressing phase of fundraisingfor it.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Can you tell us a little bit about what that was
like?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Well, it was a tricky experience because I was asking
, I was trying to raise $1.2million and that sounds like a
lot of money.
But if you're saying I want tocompete with Amazon and I'm
going to do it with $1.2 million, most investors don't think you
havea chance Because, as oneinvestor said to me, competing
with Amazon is not a businessplan.
(04:23):
Another investor said Americanconsumers only care about two
things they care about price andthey care about speed.
And unless you can beat Amazonon price and speed, you don't
have a chance.
And this guy was actuallyrepresenting a whole group of
investors and they all droppedout after they heard him say
that Not only was I trying tocompete with Amazon, but I was
(04:44):
also doing it with a kind ofeveryone take all model where,
like, the profits are sharedaround with all the different
stakeholders.
So I wasn't offering anopportunity to like, oh, you're
going to get a hundred timesreturn because we are going to
dominate the book market and weare going to win.
It was more like we're going tosave independent bookstores and
(05:06):
we're going to give away mostof our profits to them, and
investors aren't like sign me up, take my money.
That sounds great.
It was tons of rejection, but Idid manage to cobble together a
group of about seven or eightinvestors who loved local
bookstores, who thought thatthis was worth a try.
And it took me about a year anda half and there were
(05:26):
definitely times where it wasfelt like very lonely and like I
should just give up because atthat point it was just me and my
deck going to meeting aftermeeting after meeting.
But it finally worked out and Iraised about $775,000, which
wasn't quite $1.2 million, butat that point I felt like, well,
(05:47):
this is just barely enough thatI think I can build it for this
amount.
And so we did.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And once you got that funding, how did you get to
work?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, well, I found some freelance engineers, a dev
shop called Happy Fun Corp whoemployed some friends of mine
who were willing to build it forme, and I felt like I had the
right sensibility and came upwith a plan to use an open
source platform to build it.
And I hired my first employee,this guy, david Rose, who was
(06:19):
very well-connected among NewYork City publishers and also
had like a great sales mind, andso I had a partner in crime,
which is really important.
It's really important formorale and to kind of keep going
every day.
You've just got someone to talkto and somebody that's in it
with you.
It's easier.
So the process then became like,on one hand, building the
(06:42):
platform making sure it works,building it as fast as we can,
and, on the other hand, buildingthe platform making sure it
works, building it as fast as wecan, and, on the other hand,
building support for the idea inthe publishing industry and
with booksellers, because I hadto get the trade organization
for booksellers to embrace theidea and support it, because we
didn't want to go into the worldof bookstores and say, hey, we
(07:05):
want to help you and have themall be like, well, who are you
and how can we trust you?
So we had to build trust, andthat took a long time too.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And what did you find were the most effective
strategies in building thattrust?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Going to trade shows and meeting key players, finding
out who the influential voiceswere in the community and
getting to know them, putting ina lot of face time that was
really the most important thingand engaging with skeptics head
on.
The moment I would hearsomebody was skeptical, or the
(07:41):
moment that I was in a group andthere were skeptical questions
being thrown at me, I would justrush into it.
I really believed in what wewere trying to do.
I wanted to answer all theirquestions.
I wanted to hear theirskepticism and let them know why
I thought it wasn't justifiedand why I thought we could win
together.
And so really confronting ithead on, being as transparent as
(08:04):
possible and just being genuineand putting in the face time,
not being afraid of conflict.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
I love your business model.
I admire it.
I think it's very innovativeand it solves a real problem.
I mean, all of us want to saveour indie bookstores, but you
are the first person I've heardof who is actively doing
anything about it.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Thank you?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
How?
Now is bookshoporg competingwith Amazon?
How are you taking that marketshare?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, well, you know it's.
It's a number of things, but Ithink the most important one is
through the power of smallcommunities.
So a story that I sometimestell is about six weeks before
we launched, I woke up at threein the morning with the burning
(08:56):
urge to figure out how manycustomers I needed in order to
break even.
And so I started doing themental math and I realized I
needed 375,000 customers tobreak even, and I had about six
months of runway to get there.
And that moment was likecrushing, because I was like, oh
my God, like I'm a fool, who amI kidding?
Where am I going to get 375,000customers from?
(09:18):
Like a start of zero in sixmonths?
Like where are they going tocome from, et cetera.
Now what I realized is that Icould approach communities that
could all bring their followers,they can bring their fans, they
can bring their customers.
So creating 375,000 customersis a matter of getting you know
(09:44):
3,000 communities that have anaverage of 125 customers each
right.
And so getting independentbookstores to use the platform
was a major one, because theindependent bookstores would
tell their customers hey, shopfor us at bookshoporg.
Also, getting newsorganizations and media
organizations to sign up for ouraffiliate program so that, like
(10:08):
Condé Nast, magazines now linkto bookshoporg, new York Times
links to bookshoporg when theywrite about books.
It's right next to the Amazonbuy on Amazon button, this buy
on bookshoporg button.
They bring customers inOrganizations and they bring
customers in organizationsliterary magazines, arts
organizations, book clubs, like.
We pay a 10% affiliatecommission for everybody that
(10:31):
brings in a customer.
So even podcasts.
There are podcasts out therethat make thousands of dollars a
year by using bookshop linkswhen they promote books on their
podcasts and so just by doing aton of outreach to communities
and having those communitiesbring in their customers.
That was the biggest impact andthat continues to be how we
(10:52):
grow.
Because we rely on a lot ofword of mouth.
We don't have any real moneyfor serious direct to consumer
advertising, like a lot ofdirect to consumer brands do a
lot of Facebook ads andInstagram ads.
We don't have the money forthat because we remit our
profits to local bookstores.
So we sent $34 million to localbookstores.
(11:12):
That's $34 million that wecouldn't spend on digital ads.
So we rely on word of mouth.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Very grassroots approach.
I like it Gets everybodyinvolved.
So what are the challenges thatyou have faced in uniting
independent bookstores underbookshoporg's mission?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Well, you know, I alluded to the biggest challenge
in the beginning, which wasgetting booksellers to trust us
and, like bookstore owners, didnot get into the business
because they love the internetand they want to be selling
books online.
Right, they want to be handingpeople books, they want to be
browsing and perusing books,they want to be arranging their
shelves.
A lot of them don't really likethe internet and don't like
(11:55):
online shopping.
They consider it a threat,right, they want to have real
world connections with people intheir communities.
So getting them to believe thatactually having a online sales
strategy was important to theirbusinesses and could help them.
That was a huge hurdle, but wecould succeed by making money
(12:16):
for them.
It's easier to convince peoplethat what you're doing for them
is good if you're sending themchecks for like $3,000, $5,000,
then they start to say, actually, maybe this isn't such a bad
thing, maybe this is good and welaunched during the pandemic,
or we launched six weeks beforethe pandemic.
So when the pandemic happened,a lot of the stores need to sell
(12:38):
books online, so they reallyjumped on board.
On the customer side of it, wehave to tell customers that
there's something more importantthan like paying 50 cents less
or getting a book same daydelivery and waiting two days
Like.
We deliver books really fast.
Most of our books get tocustomers within three to four
(12:59):
days, but Amazon is faster.
We discount our books and someof them have really good deals,
and occasionally we beat.
Amazon is faster.
We discount our books and someof them have really good deals,
and occasionally we beat Amazonon price, but most of the time
books on Amazon are a little bitmore expensive.
So why?
Why shop at bookshoporg?
Answering that question is amajor hurdle, but there are a
lot of people that buy organicgroceries, they buy from local
(13:22):
farms, they buy power for theirhomes that is generated from
renewable resources.
There are a lot of people whoare socially conscious, that
understand that the money thatthey put out in the world, how
they purchase, how they consume,is actually setting the stage
for the world that they're goingto live in, the future that the
children are going to live in,and so if they make socially
(13:45):
conscious choices, then they'rehelping pave the way for a
better future, and for me that'sa future where you can go
downtown and go to your localbookstore.
So getting consumers on boardand getting them to be willing
to make some sacrifices andgetting the bookstores on board,
making them embrace e-commerce.
Those were the two biggestturtles.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
And I think that you're right, though, that
there's a large enoughpercentage of the population
that cares about keepingcommunities small and local and
keeping our bookstores open aswell.
Can you share some insightsinto the backend of what it's
like to operate bookshoporg'sbusiness structure?
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah Well, we try to be really lean, because the more
bloat we have, the less moneywe can actually send to the
bookstores.
So we have only 40 employees.
We earn more than a milliondollars in revenue per employee,
which is very rare forcompanies to have that kind of
ratio.
We're fully remote.
(14:48):
We started right before thepandemic, so we were subletting
some office space.
We let that sublet go, westarted hiring people from all
over the country and by the timepeople started going back to
the office, we had a team thatwas spread out everywhere.
We even have an employee inBarcelona, so we're never going
back to an office.
(15:10):
So we do a lot of work on Slackand we are scrappy, which means
that, like people don't havevery well-defined roles.
They help out where they can.
You know, we have like a lot ofwork to do at all times.
Unfortunately, it's not like aneasy job.
Nobody's coasting but it's alsovery rewarding, because we're
(15:32):
constantly hearing from storesthat are very grateful for our
existence and so many stores,like every week, some store will
say like thank you so much,like we wouldn't have made it
through the season if it hadn'tbeen for you.
That kind of thing reallymotivates us and energizes us.
So we're all just kind ofworking asynchronously and
(15:53):
trying to come up with cleverstrategies that we can grow, and
grow organically.
What was it like for youfinding a distributor to?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
partner with.
What was it like for youfinding a distributor to partner
with?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Well, that was easy, actually, because, for better or
for worse, in the US there isreally one big
direct-to-consumer bookdistributor, which is Ingram.
Now, amazon, of course, hastheir own warehouses and they're
shipping books to customers allthe time, but Ingram is by far
the largest book distributor inthe US that isn't Amazon, and
(16:26):
they supply to independentbookstores, they supply to
libraries, they supply to Barnesand Noble.
So I already knew about thembecause I was in book publishing
and so I was able to go theremake a presentation.
Fortunately, they were reallyreceptive to the presentation
and got on board right away.
It was easier to get Ingram onboard than it was to get my
investors on board, for example,so they were very supportive
(16:49):
and they've been a great partnersince, and they have warehouses
all over the country.
That's one of the things thatallows us to be competitive with
Amazon is like a smallbookstore might only have 1500
books in stock, so we can't relyon the inventories of small
bookstores to satisfy the wholecountry.
And right now I talked about375,000 customers before.
(17:12):
Now we have 3 million customersand they all want different
kinds of books, right.
So we have six warehousesthrough Ingram, and now we have
other wholesalers too.
So it's not just Ingram now,and we're shipping books to
people every single day.
We're shipping tens ofthousands of books every single
day from all these wholesalepartners.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
What an incredible journey this has been for you.
So for consumers who might notknow, and a lot of listeners
might not know, and I love tojust have transparency that is
helpful for learning.
Can you break down the typicalprofit margins for a book and
explain how the sales price isdistributed among the author,
(17:54):
the publisher, the distributorand then the platform?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yes.
So there's three different waysthat you can sell a book on
bookshop and they each havedifferent splits.
So number one is if a bookstoresells a book, so let's say
you're on your bookstore'smailing list or you're following
them on Instagram and they'relike buy this book, and they put
a link out there In that casewe don't take any money at all.
So the entire profit margingoes to the bookstore, because
(18:21):
that's our mission and we're amission-based business, so we're
not in it to, you know, make abig profit for ourselves.
We try to keep the bookstoresin business.
Now, the second way that youcan buy a book is if you buy it
through an affiliate link, andthat could be if you go to the
New York Times or the AtlanticMagazine or your local book club
, or if an author has a bookshopaffiliate page, et cetera.
(18:42):
In that case we will give theaffiliate 10% and we will give
10% to the bookstore and we willkeep 10% for ourself and then
we have a seven or 10% discountand then the remaining 60% goes
to cost.
It pays the publisher pays forthe shipping, pays for Ingram,
(19:04):
et cetera.
So the profit margin isbasically divided evenly three
ways, because we're rewardingeverybody in the process.
If a book club is like we wantto support local bookstores,
we're going to use bookshoplinks instead of having our
members go to Amazon, we want tohelp them out.
So if they become affiliateseven if it's just to pay for
their pizza when they havemeetings like, we'll kick them
(19:27):
back something.
We're kind of spreading thewealth around all the different
players.
If New York Times or theAtlantic Magazine is cool enough
to want to use bookshoporglinks on their pages, we want to
help support their booksjournalism, so we'll give them a
10% kickback.
And Amazon has an affiliateprogram for books, but it's only
four and a half percent, soit's better for them.
(19:49):
Now there is a third way you canbuy a book, which is if you
just go straight to bookshoporg,don't choose a bookstore and
buy a book and then leave.
In that case, a third of theprofit goes to the independent
bookstores through a profitsharing pool and two thirds of
the profit goes to supportbookshoporg, and that's kind of
how we pay our bills.
(20:09):
Is those direct sales.
So it's really three differentways.
If you buy from a bookstore,they get all the money.
If you buy from an affiliate,we split it three ways.
If you buy directly frombookshop, we give a third to the
bookstores and two thirds go tokeeping bookshop going.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
It sounds like a very comprehensive plan that you've
put together In the five yearsor so that you've been running
this.
What are some of the mistakesthat you've made along the way?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, that's a good, really good question.
I mean, I think in thebeginning we weren't ready for
our growth.
We had four people on staff andme and I had a full-time job at
the time and we grew very, veryfast.
So in the beginning it was youknow, it's a nice problem to
(20:57):
have, but we were reallyunderstaffed.
We basically never slept andhad to work out all of our
customer service issues and kindof what they how they say build
the plane while it was inflight.
That was really tough.
Not investing in things likesetting up sales tax in 50
(21:18):
states, because I was like, well, it's going to be years before
we have to do sales tax in all50 states, but it turned out to
be six weeks before we get to dosales tax in all 50 states, but
it turned out to be six weeksbefore we had to do sales tax in
all 50 states.
Investing in a professionalcustomer service platform so
that our customer service waswell organized and we could
onboard new customer servicereps, et cetera All the
(21:39):
infrastructure stuff that Ithought wasn't important enough
to do right in the beginningended up being very important to
do, and so, yeah, a little bitmore preparatory work would have
been nice and I think ingeneral, one thing that is very
(22:00):
important, that is perhaps moreuniversal, is like finding the
right people for the roles.
You want to start your businesswith the people who you want to
work with for the next 10 years, who you have got a great
communication relationships withand who are hungry and
ambitious and want to learn andwant to grow and are committed.
So there's a temptation, whenyou're growing fast or when
(22:20):
you're just getting started, tojust like fill the role so you
can move on, and generally Ithink that's a mistake.
Like you have to be very, verycareful who you bring on,
because that team is going to bethe team that either makes you
successful or not.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
And that is so relevant to the episode that's
dropping just a couple beforeyours, because I interviewed
Jeff Smart, who is known asprobably the world's top expert
on hiring, and he also says it'snot really the what of the
company.
More often than not it's thewho problems and it's getting
the team right.
So it sounds like you figuredthat out earlier than a lot of
(22:56):
other people do so.
With such a comprehensiveexperience in the publishing
industry, what are your thoughtson the current state of
publishing?
What are your thoughts on thecurrent state?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
of publishing.
Well, it's a super interestingtime.
I think the good news is that alot of people are still buying
books, people are still reading,and the evolution of things
like TikTok and the huge demandfor books through things like
BookTok have been really greatto see.
So it's a really strongindustry and it's remained
(23:29):
strong and there have been like,for some reason, everybody
always wants to say like nobodyreads anymore and like the book
industry is on the precipice ofdisaster, and I've been hearing
that for 15 years now, and so Inow take it with a grain of salt
.
I think people lovestorytelling, they love books, a
lot of people love to read, andit's moving online, like the
(23:49):
culture of reading is goingonline in a way that I think is
definitely more positive thannegative.
The dangers that I see are thatAmazon is still super dominant
in the space they sell probablyseven out of every 10 books in
the US are sold by Amazon and Ithink books are something that
(24:10):
are so important to culture andso important, ultimately, to
humanity and the evolution ofour consciousness and our
society, and to have one companyin charge of them all, having
kind of almost a monopoly onthem, is dangerous, because of
course course they decide whatbooks have put in front of
people.
(24:30):
You know, I don't think thatthey're benevolent in how they
promote books, but all they careabout is money.
They don't care about thecontent of the books, they care
about selling as many aspossible and it's all
algorithmic.
So we're trying to push for amore human version of
bookselling that is in the handsof people In this, and they do
(24:52):
a much better job of bringingimportant new books and book
discovery than big e-commerceretailers.
(25:13):
And then I think the otherthing that makes me a little
nervous about the way the bookindustry is evolving is that
it's becoming more of ahit-based business.
There used to be what they calla mid-list author, which is like
a whole ton of books that wouldsell in a mid range of 10,000
to 100,000 copies, and that haskind of been hollowed out.
(25:34):
And now, I think, because booksgo viral on the internet and get
so big on the internet, likeeverybody is reading the same
books, which means that there'sless room at the top.
The books that are doing reallywell have a ton of readers, and
you have some authors likeColleen Hoover that dominates
seven out of 10 bestseller slotswhen they're popular.
(25:56):
So the problem with that isthat it crowds out a lot of
worthwhile books that alsodeserve to be read.
So I think that that's aproblem that we still have to
solve is how to help with bookdiscovery, how to help books
that are really worth readingsurface to the top and create a
(26:16):
more diverse discussion aroundbooks, rather than like TikTok
driving like another mega bookthat sells a million copies
every month.
Like I, would much rather havea healthy environment where
there were 100 books eachselling 10,000 copies in a month
, that were filled with diversevoices and really interesting
ideas and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, quality over quantity and I think with the
increase in AI, we're going tocontinue to have to figure out
how to filter through all ofthis noise.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, I think we're on the cusp of like a giant kind
of gray goo of AI generatedbooks that are good enough to
like for no one to kind ofunderstand that they're AI, and
a lot of people are trying togame the system.
Luckily, most of that'shappening on Amazon, not on
bookshoporg, so Amazon can tryto solve that problem first, but
(27:09):
it is something that we'reworried about.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah.
So, speaking of worthwhilebooks and maybe some that are
not on the bestseller list, whatare some of the best books that
you've read recently and whatmakes them stand out to you?
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Well, I read a book called Hum by Helen Phillips,
which was you know, it's set inthe future.
It's and what makes them standout to you by walking around and
kind of acting like trafficcops and nannies and shopping
assistants and all kinds ofthings and it's about a Brooklyn
mother who is trying to makethe best decisions for kids in a
(27:57):
world that is like all digitalmarketing and facial recognition
technology and no escape fromalways being on and always being
connected, and she's trying tobreak her kids free of that.
But in doing so she ends upmaking them vulnerable to this
kind of horrible disaster whereher kids get lost and then she
(28:20):
goes viral for having lost herkids and is shamed.
And it's an intense book, butit's often funny.
It's really really sharp, superinteresting.
Again, it's called Hum.
I love that one, and right nowI'm reading a book called Liars
by Sarah Manguso, which is abook about a failed marriage
(28:41):
that is incredibly riveting andimpactful.
It's definitely like it doesn'treflect well on the guy in the
marriage and so if you don'tlike, if you are feeling
defensive about your role inyour marriage, then it might not
be a good book to read, butit's like, really on point,
really, really gripping bookabout kind of dissolution of a
(29:04):
marriage that has a lot ofuniversal truths in it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Well, it sounds like both of those have some overlap
to lives that many of us may beliving, so I'll have to check
those out.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, I think parents trying to navigate shared
responsibilities and usher yourkids into the future in like a
safe, positive way.
It's tough and obviously welook to books and literature to
pass forward and to increase ourunderstanding, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I've got a stack of about 20books on my nightstand and it
looks like you've got I don'tknow how many hundreds of books
there behind you.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, too many, too many for me to ever read, I
think.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
So I'm curious to know I know you recognize the
problem with e-commercenegatively impacting indie
bookstores.
Have you noticed any otherproblems like that in the world
that maybe someone listening inmight be inspired to try and
solve?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Oh yeah, I mean, I think in general, we're talking
about the need for humancommunity in an age where we're
all sort of having our brainshijacked by some of the smartest
people on earth who understandbehavioral psychology and
understand electronics, andthey're all trying to build
(30:24):
addiction machines for us.
And it's very easy to be like,oh well, I want to build the
next addiction machine, like Iwant to have a viral app or I
want to have something thateverybody like, that has the
highest usage rates, et cetera,everybody that has the highest
usage rates, et cetera, etcetera.
And so what I encourage peopleto do is embrace the
countertrend, which is aboutforging real human connections
(30:51):
between people, whether that'sby helping real brick-and-mortar
, small local businesses likebookstores, that bookshoporg is,
or just helping people findconnection with their families,
with their friends, helpingpeople find local activities,
charities, group activities,things that make people feel
less lonely, less isolated,things that build social bonds
(31:14):
and kind of tap into whatactually makes humans happy,
because the thing about like ourmodern era is that like it
seems like we're a lot lesshappy, like even the more
convenient things are, the morewe don't have to leave our
houses to get our groceries andwe don't have to like, actually
interface with actual humanbeings.
Every little little convenientmoment that we have adds up to a
(31:39):
life of disconnection, and sowe need to consciously decouple
from that, and we need people tocome up with innovative ways to
not like say all technology isbad, because I'm a firm believer
you can't fight the trend.
You can't say the answer is tonot have a phone or the answer
is to throw away all yourtechnology and go off the grid,
(32:01):
because most people can't dothat.
Maybe that's the answer for 1%of people, but for the other,
99% of people, find ways thattechnology can constructively
help them and kind of leadpeople back to a saner and
happier way of living.
That's, I think, the biggestopportunity that I want a new
generation of entrepreneurs andcreative thinkers to come up
(32:23):
with.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Well, and let's say that that just sparks an idea
for somebody.
What are some lessons thatyou've learned from your
entrepreneurial journey that youalso think that they could
benefit from knowing?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, well, I think one thing is like start, like
don't wait for all the stars toalign.
I tried to raise $1.2 million.
I couldn't raise it.
If I had decided that I wasn'tgoing to start until I raised
the amount of money I thought Ineeded, I never would have
started.
I just started with what I hadand that means, like tomorrow,
(33:01):
start working.
If you have an hour, you canstart working, whether it's on a
prototype or an idea or a pitch, whatever, or your new website,
just start, just start working.
It all gets so much easier onceyou start, and the conditions
are never perfect, so you kindof make your own conditions by
(33:21):
just getting started.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Sometimes people they get nervous or fearful.
It feels so big to go from nothaving a business to now
launching bookshoporg.
I mean that seems like a giantstep.
But it's like what you'resaying.
Just if you have an hour, movea little bit towards the
direction of where you're goingand not to stress so much about
(33:43):
the big leap you're trying tomake.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yes, and part of that is about embracing the
possibility of failure.
Like you have to be ready tofail.
When I first started it, I waslike, well, this is like taking
a shot of the Death Star.
Like, of course you'll probablyget blown up, but you have to
try to take a shot of the DeathStar.
If nobody does, then the DeathStar is going to win.
And so, like we're going totake our shot and see what
(34:09):
happens.
Failing is really an iterativeprocess.
Right, you want to fail overand over again, because every
time that you fail, you learn alittle bit more and you get a
little better.
So you want to give yourselfthe room to fail.
If you're so afraid of failurethat you can't get started or
you can't ever like go publicwith whatever your idea is, then
it's really going to hinder you.
(34:30):
It's going to keep you fromever making some of your dreams
real.
So you have to understand that,yeah, you're going to fail and
you're going to move on andyou're going to overcome your
failures.
And every successful person yousee out there, every person who
has, like done all the thingsthat you want to be able to do,
I guarantee you they wentthrough failure after failure.
(34:51):
They were embarrassed atcertain points, they were
humiliated at certain points,but they kept going and they got
better.
And so, like understanding thatthat's part of the process and
embracing it, that's another biglesson.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
It's so important to normalize failure.
It's not even failure, it'slike a mistake, it's a stepping
stone.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Yeah, I like one thing when bookshop launched, I
decided to put the amount ofmoney we raised for bookstores
at the top of every page on thesite.
I was inspired by sites likeGoFundMe where you can see oh,
they've raised $25,000.
And if I add $100 and I can seethe amount go up.
So I wanted that on Bookshop.
But I understood that thatmeant that if we did poorly,
(35:36):
everybody would know If weweren't selling any books, and
that number was like we raised$150 for bookstores.
It would be embarrassing, butwe did it anyway and in the
first month it was kind of anembarrassing figure.
It was $50,000 at the end ofthe first month and there was a
podcast about the book industrywhere they went on and they were
(35:57):
like, yeah, bookshoporg, itseemed like a great idea, but it
doesn't seem like they're doingthat much because they only
have raised $50,000.
I was like, oh my God, it'sbeen one month, but this is
exactly the nightmare that Ithought would happen, where
people think we're a failure,they haven't given us a chance
yet.
When we started really takingoff, we had people sharing on
Twitter and social media all thetime like, oh my God, Bookshop
(36:20):
has raised a half milliondollars.
Oh my God, Bookshop has alreadyraised a million dollars and
people got really excited aboutthat number.
Keep going up and going up.
When we hit 10 million, when wehad 25 million, there were so
many people celebrating ushitting those milestones.
So putting that on there didexpose us to lots of
(36:41):
embarrassment and made anyfailure that we had very public,
but it also gave the public achance to rally around us and
when we started doing well, itwas a huge motivator for people.
So putting it out there andexposing ourselves to potential
embarrassment was like a reallykey part of something that ended
up being a big success driverfor us.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, people love transparency.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
It's like a point of real connection.
So just for a closing questionhere, I've got so many more
questions that I'd like to ask.
But I also know that listeners,they really only have a certain
amount of time before they haveto move on to the rest of their
lives.
So as a closing question here,if you could go back and talk
(37:26):
with yourself when you were inyour early twenties, what life
wisdom would you give yourselfunrelated to business?
Speaker 2 (37:35):
The most important thing I would say is like, stop
being intimidated by people andgo and do what you think you're
capable of, or what you want tobe capable of.
Make it happen.
I think I wasted a certainamount of time because I went to
state schools Like I didn'tcome from you know any money and
(37:57):
I didn't have a great educationand I wanted to go into media
but I would never have likeapplied for those jobs or gone
for it because I felt like, oh,those you know that's people who
have gone to Harvard would getthat job at Condé Nast or
whatever, whatever my dreamwould be.
(38:18):
And it took me a long time toget that kind of confidence.
To start, like, I created myown magazine.
I was, I guess, 25 when I didthat and I started building up
confidence by watching itsucceed.
But it was still about 10 yearsbefore I realized, oh, like
there aren't a whole ton ofpeople who are much better at
(38:40):
this than I am, like everybodyis just struggling along with
some successes.
They all have to learn, theyall are going through the
similar challenges as you are,and so to kind of just give
yourself permission to beambitious and not undercut
yourself, and understand thatyou're capable of doing whatever
(39:06):
you want to do, no matter whereyou came from or what you've
done up to that point.
I think that was that would bethe most important thing.
It would probably save me likea decade of noodling around.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah, I think that's incredible advice.
I think a lot of people,especially now the younger
generation, as they enter theworkforce, they're feeling a bit
lost and the opportunities thatthey thought would be there for
them are not necessarily soyeah.
Yeah Well, andy, thank you somuch for sharing your story with
(39:39):
us.
It is a real inspiration andyour solution is so innovative.
Love the business model and I'mvery grateful for your time, so
thank you for coming on.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Today's key takeaways .
If there's a problem in theworld that really needs fixing,
don't wait for someone else tosolve it.
Consider the possibility thatyou could create the solution.
Successful businesses solveproblems, so start noticing them
, write them down, thenbrainstorm steps you could take
(40:19):
to build solutions.
If your idea requires funding,prepare for a journey, create a
pitch deck with the help of adesigner and be ready for
rejection.
It's part of the process.
It took Andy a year and a halfto cobble together a group of
(40:40):
investors who believed in hismission and invested just under
65% of what he was hoping toraise.
If you need help developing asite for your innovative
business idea, check out HappyFun Corp, the company that
helped Andy build outbookshoporg.
Having the right partner incrime, so to speak, is really
important for morale and forwardmomentum.
(41:02):
Build support for the idea inthe related industry and start
establishing trust.
Go to trade shows, meet keyplayers and influential voices
in the community and put in alot of FaceTime.
Be transparent and genuine.
There is power in smallcommunities and, when it comes
(41:24):
to growth, think small to go big.
When faced with the dauntingtask of finding 375,000
customers within six months,andy decided to focus on
building 3,000 key relationshipswith indie bookstores, media
outlets and organizations andbook clubs, who would then share
(41:46):
bookshoporg with their about125 customers.
Each Spend time finding theright people for the roles,
because it's your team who iseither going to make you
successful or not.
Team who is either going tomake you successful or not.
There's a current problem in thebook selling marketplace, and
that's that only a handful ofbooks make it to the top selling
(42:07):
spots.
So there's a need to help withbook discovery, to help books
that are really worth readingsurface to the top.
Maybe this is a business foryou.
There's also a need for humancommunity in the world.
Embrace the counter trend andlook for business opportunities
that could help people feel lesslonely and less isolated in an
(42:31):
increasingly digital world.
What makes humans happy?
What can be done to bringpeople back to a saner and
happier way of living?
Don't wait for all the stars toalign before you get started.
Tomorrow, for example, startworking.
If you have an hour, startworking.
(42:51):
Have an idea, start working onit.
The conditions are neverperfect, so make your own
conditions and get started.
Be ready to fail over and overagain and learn Every person who
has done all of the things youwant to do.
They've gone through failureafter failure and probably a
(43:12):
moment or two of embarrassment.
Welcome the failure, welcomethe embarrassment.
It's part of the process.
Don't be intimidated by people.
Go and do what you think you'recapable of, or what you want to
be capable of.
There are not a ton of peoplewho are better than you, so
don't fool yourself intothinking so.
(43:34):
Lastly, you're capable of doingwhat you want, no matter where
you're starting from, so go,make it happen.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com