Today’s guest is Elizabeth Husserl, a financial advisor, registered investment advisor representative, and the co-founder of Peak360 Wealth Management, a boutique wealth planning firm based here in the Bay Area.
Elizabeth has this rare and fascinating blend of expertise: she holds a degree in economics from Tulane and a master’s in East-West psychology from the California Institute of Integral Studies, where she’s also served as an adjunct professor. Her work weaves together money, meaning, entrepreneurship, and mental well-being — a thread I found both timely and deeply resonant.
Before launching Peak360, Elizabeth worked across the Americas in nonprofit settings, and today she’s also a sought-after speaker, having led workshops at places like Airbnb, Unity, and Google.
She lives in the Bay Area with her husband and daughter, and I can’t wait for you to hear the way she approaches personal finance through the lens of both human psychology and long-term vision.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McEntee, your host.
Today's guest is ElizabethHusserl, a financial advisor,
registered investment advisorrepresentative and the
co-founder of Peak360 WealthManagement, a boutique wealth
planning firm based here in theBay Area.
Elizabeth has this rare andfascinating blend of expertise.
(00:30):
She holds a degree in economicsfrom Tulane and a master's in
East-West psychology from theCalifornia Institute of Integral
Studies, where she's alsoserved as an adjunct professor.
Her work weaves together money,meaning entrepreneurship and
mental well-being, a thread Ifound both timely and deeply
(00:51):
resonant.
Before launching Peak360,elizabeth worked across the
Americas in non-profit settings.
Today, she's also asought-after speaker, having led
workshops at places like Airbnb.
She's also a sought afterspeaker, having led workshops at
places like Airbnb, unity andGoogle.
She lives in the Bay Area withher husband and daughter, and I
(01:13):
can't wait for you to hear theway she approaches personal
finance through the lens of bothhuman psychology and long-term
vision.
If you've been tuning in, youknow this show isn't about
selling anything.
It's about sharing meaningfulstories and learning along the
way.
If how I built my smallbusiness has brought you any
(01:35):
insight, inspiration or evenjust a spark of curiosity, there
are a few simple ways you cansupport the journey.
Follow the show, share yourfavorite episode with a friend
or leave a quick review.
Each one truly helps me growthis show.
Thank you, let's get started.
(01:55):
I'm just going to jump right in, and something that I've
noticed with myself and alsowith many people that I've
worked with is just that, nomatter how much we have, it
never quite feels like enough.
And I know you've done a lot ofwriting on this and you think
(02:17):
about it a lot.
Why do you think that that is?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
First and foremost, scarcity brain is real.
We're not crazy, right?
Our brains are wired to seek.
That is what's kept us alive.
That's why you and I are havingthis conversation.
Our brains and our mind center,we're seeking, we're analyzing,
we're forecasting, we'rescanning, right.
It has a really important job.
But our brains weren't wired aswe go through the whole dopamine
(02:43):
loop to then know when enoughis.
And so, if we don't lean intoother experiences, through our
heart center, through our mindcenter, to know what enough
feels like, we're constantly inthe loop of our scarcity brain
and that's why we feel thatyou're like wait a second.
Is abundance mindset the answer?
It's like no, because I'm stillusing my mind to try to call in
(03:04):
more.
So part of embodying wealth, inaddition to accumulating, is
literally learning how to havevisceral experiences of wealth
so that your scarcity brain canrelax and be like oh, what does
enough feel like?
What does it look like?
What strategies work?
Right?
It's almost like when you go tothe gym I'm like, oh yeah, that
(03:26):
workout felt amazing, that onenot so much right.
And so we have to start tolearn these strategies of enough
, because it's not intuitive toour brains.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Well, and enough is a relative term A hundred percent
.
For someone it might beaffording fresh food, and for
someone else it's like taking avacation without feeling any
guilt at all.
So how do you help your clientsdefine what enough really means
?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
We're trained in our culture to go to numbers when we
think about enough, right?
Like, how much do I need tomake in terms of income to cover
my expenses, to pay for thebills, et cetera?
So notice that we justnaturally do that which you know
.
And again, I have a job.
For a reason, I'm a financialplanner.
I'm in spreadsheets all daylong.
But I have to take it backagain and say let's start with
your needs, let's start withyour goals, right?
And so one of the core conceptsin my book called the Wealth
(04:19):
Mandala, which is based on onthe science of human needs, is
really understanding what arethe areas where clients feel
full and satisfied, what are theareas in which they're feeling
lack?
Right, that's where truepoverty lies, and it's very
unique and personal to yourpoint.
Right, it's very personal, it'svery relative.
And then we work backwards andbe like, okay, what if they're
(04:40):
not feeling enough in theirslice of pie for leisure?
We could argue I need to plan avacation.
So let's put pen to paper.
How much does it cost to takemy family?
Maybe I want to take them toHawaii, maybe I want to take
them on an adventure?
Right, we can put pen and paperand say, okay, this is my
travel goal for the year, let'swork backwards and start to fund
it.
There is a numerical response toit.
(05:02):
But what's just as equallyimportant, ann, is that if we
plan for a $20,000 trip and theygo on the trip and they're not
satisfied, they didn't actuallyrelax right, they didn't really
connect with their family, theywere working the whole time
because, you know, maybe they'rea workaholic If we don't really
satisfy the need for leisure,they come back from the trip.
They spent their 20 grand, theydon't feel satisfied.
(05:23):
So do you see how that loop is?
Both planning with numbers fora goal.
Let's make it happen.
But equally important is wasthat the right strategy to
satisfy that need?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Right.
Well, I mean and I guess ittakes some discipline too to
fully satisfy that need, thiswealth mandala that you
mentioned, how many differentcategories can you describe to
us?
What is included in this wealthmandala?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, I will describe it, but I'm going to answer
your first comment first.
It actually can be simpler thanwe think.
We actually know how to satisfyour needs, more than what we
give ourselves credit for, andI'll speak to how do we actually
discover that.
But the wealth mandala it'sbased on the science of human
needs, right, that we knowthrough Maslow and more
economists have developed.
I studied with an economistfrom Chile, manfred Maxneaf, and
(06:14):
it's based on 12 human needs,right, and so financial
stability, safety, physicalhealth, freedom, purpose,
understanding, participation,belonging, connection, curiosity
, leisure and touch.
And I also leave, anne, spacefor two needs, because it's
again, unique and personal.
(06:34):
Someone might have a reallyimportant need for creativity,
someone else for transcendence.
For me it's celebration, right?
So you do get to understand whoyou are and what's important.
And then what you do is thatyou take this mandala and you
rate on a scale of one to 10,how fulfilled are you currently
in each aspect, right?
A lot of times people come to meas a financial planner and they
want to talk financialstability.
(06:55):
Do I feel stable in myfinancial life?
Am I earning enough?
How am I spending?
Am I investing enough?
Am I planning for a rainy day.
Those are the questions.
I talk about a lot in financialstability.
Great, it's really important todo your work there.
But equally important is to seeam I feeling lack in any of
these one needs?
So, for example, right, I workwith a lot of clients in tech.
(07:16):
One guy came to me he was headof design of a pretty important
tech company and he scored a twoin his need for touch and I was
like, oh, tell me about that.
He's like you know what?
We're expecting our secondchild, and I actually feel
uncomfortable with the touch of,like, my first kid, and now I'm
feeling anxious about thesecond kid that's coming.
(07:37):
We had a really interestingconversation.
He was like I feel a lot ofgrief because I didn't receive
the touch I needed as a kid.
Right, my mom was just absent,right.
And so, notice, if we don't dothe wealth mandala, I don't know
.
This is part of what's givinghim a sense of scarcity and
anxiety.
And then we get to decide right,can we put some monetary
resources A?
You know, do you want to go seea therapist about it?
(07:59):
What do you?
How do you want to work with it?
Or do we bring somenon-monetary resources to it and
we just say, hey, let's bringthat to just like your awareness
with your family to see how canwe relax into it.
So do you see that there's somethings?
I think what the wealth mandaladoes is it points out that
there's really important waysthat money can support our life
and helping us feel enough, andthere's ways that it can't.
(08:21):
And the key premise of my workis that money and Money is one
tool and a technology.
Wealth is a state of well-being, and for far too long we have
confused the two, which is whatkeeps us in this rat race for I
(08:41):
need more money, I need moremoney, I need more money to feel
wealthy.
Then it's like a rat race thatwe can't get off.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, and even hearing you say it and I know
that logically it's true.
And yet, even knowing it andlogically understanding it, it
takes more than that, I think,to remove the emotional
component, to it.
Yeah, how do you detach fromgenerationally taught
(09:08):
relationships with money?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
It brings such a smile to my face because I think
actually it's through theemotions, you know, and I think
that's the other piece it's nottrying to be unemotional.
So one of my favorite exercisesis a gestalt chair exercise
called conversation with money.
It can be extremely hard andjarring right.
Every client I sit down and dothis exercise is like oh my God,
elizabeth, a, you're crazy andB, I feel resistance.
(09:31):
But what's interesting is thatwhen you sit down and literally
have a conversation with money,this isn't talking to money,
this is having conversation with, and what I mean by that is
that you get the opportunity toexpress the emotion you're
holding Like, god damn it, money, where have you been?
Right?
Or why is it that you come inso quickly and you leave so
quickly?
Or I don't know what to do withyou, like, you just make me
(09:54):
feel icky, right, you can putwhatever phrase you want.
I've seen it all.
I've had people like be likemoney, where have you been my
whole life?
Right, it's so personal andwhen you start to really explore
what's the emotion underneathit and then what's money's
response back, you start to see,huh, there's an interesting
dynamic that I am actuallyresponsible for, co-creating
(10:19):
right.
I just came off a client callwhen she was like, oh my God,
I'm recreating this codependencywith money because I just built
a business where I'msubsidizing all my employees and
I'm like, hmm, let's talk aboutthat, right.
And so what you start to see isour relational styles tend to
transfer into our relationshipwith our spouse, with our
(10:40):
friends, and our relationshipwith money.
And the more we're clear aboutthat, you and money can start to
sit down and be like, okay,let's clean slate, let's start
over.
How do we do this differently?
But it starts with takingresponsibility with how you're
showing up in it.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And how did you get to this point?
Was there a moment, somethingthat happened, that broadened
your perspective on how youpersonally have a relationship
with money?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, I mean I think there's been many kind of
milestones.
A couple important ones wasafter I graduated from my
economics degree.
As my undergrad I went andworked in Oaxaca, mexico, at a
local nonprofit and I was hiredto help indigenous women create
savings and loan cooperatives.
And so I'm like, oh great, Ihave a super tactical financial
(11:27):
instrument to go teach.
And, oh my goodness, anne and Ireceived so much more than what
I gave, because I received anexperience of wealth that was so
much broader than finances.
Yes, there was material povertyand I was there with a solution
to help adjust that.
But they were wealthy in theirconnection with the land, with
(11:48):
nature, with each other, withritual.
They were joyful people.
And I was like, huh, how isthere so much joy amongst
material poverty?
And why is it back in theStates?
We have so much more but wedon't feel as joyful.
And so that was the first kindof like kick in the butt in my
early twenties, like my workisn't back in Oaxaca, my work is
(12:10):
back in the States.
Even though I'm Latina, I go toLatin America for my dose of
joy.
Right, my work is in the States, where we have so much more,
but we feel scarcity, we feelpoor.
So that was one.
And then I think the second oneis you know, I did my
undergraduate in finance andeconomics and I did my graduate
in psychology and it was in thatgraduate program that one of my
(12:33):
professors sat me down or satus down in a workshop and taught
me that gestalt chair exerciseof a conversation with money.
And, anne, when I sat down andhad my first conversation with
money, I was so angry at it,right, I was like God damn it,
money, I'm trying to start myown business and you're not
showing up.
And I just went off on it and Ijust I gave it own business and
you're not showing up.
(12:54):
And I just went off on it and Ijust I gave it the list of the
ways to start showing up.
And then money, it was money'sturn and it turned around and
said Elizabeth, back off, youare holding on too tight and
you're being so unreasonable,like in.
Basically, money was likeyou're talking to me as if you
were talking to an old boyfriend, that you're really upset up
(13:14):
because they didn't show up inyour life.
And we went back and forth and Iwas able to realize that I was
starting something that hadnever been taught to me, which
is how to become an entrepreneur.
My parents had always been W2sright, they had been an employee
.
I wanted to do somethingdifferent.
I hadn't been taught how to dothat and I was feeling the
anxiety of something unknown.
(13:35):
And once I got that, I'm like,oh, that is what I need to learn
.
It's not money's fault that Idon't know how to do it.
Let me go find my mentors, findthe people in my life who have
been entrepreneurs, pick theirbrains and figure it out to how
to do it, and then I create aspace for money to come in in a
(13:55):
way that works.
So it just flipped it on itshead.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, that's interesting because a lot of us
do blame money for our problems,but really there's probably a
deeper route that we can dig outthere and actually potentially
solve our own problems.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
And that's where financial agency lies.
What do you mean by that?
Well, we want to feel empoweredwhen it comes to money.
Right, when I ask clients, whatdo you want to feel?
They're like I want to feelempowered, I want freedom, I
want to feel you know that, Iunderstand it Like there's all
these things that people talkabout in the relationship to
money, but it's almost likesaying I mean, imagine saying I
want to feel that in arelationship with my partner,
(14:36):
but I never sit down and talk tohim or her or it.
You know what I mean.
And so part of it is like okay,you want all these feelings,
but we have to do the work toget there.
We know marriage is tough work.
We know parenting is hard, butwe are connected to the outcome
of knowing that we can have agood relationship with, a
healthy relationship with it.
But we have to own our part.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Well, and money can often be a very taboo topic.
Yeah, a lot of people areunwilling to share their
personal experience with it, oreven share numbers.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
That's even another topic, that's why I wrote this
book without an ounce of numbersin there.
Right, and it surprises people.
They're like, oh, you're afinancial advisor and investment
manager and you wrote this book, and they were thinking that
they'd get like investing advice, and on purpose, because
there's so many books onfinancial literacy, I wanted to
write a book that was chock fullof, like many moments and
questions that we can askourselves and ask people in our
(15:33):
lives, so that we can starttalking more about our
experiences, what worked, whatdidn't.
And I think if we have that asthe entry point, we talk a lot
more about it.
Because once we bring numbersin, we go into comparative mode.
Right, do they make more thanme?
Do they spend more than me?
Do they have more debt than me?
That makes me feel good, right,like we go into comparative
(15:53):
mode.
So if we take the numbers asidefor a second, we can still talk
about money, we can still talkabout wealth.
Let's have those conversations.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, I really like what you were just saying right
there about not going intocomparative mode, because it's
like how you mentioned in yourbook the equation isn't a zero
sum.
It's not like I have to win andyou have to lose in order for
this to be a great equation.
It's like no, you win, I win,everybody wins.
Like that's a better option.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
A hundred percent.
And how we define wealth is sopersonal, right?
If we think of diversification,we normally think of it in like
let me diversify in terms ofasset classes or types of
investments I use, right,brokerage accounts, retirement
accounts.
But if we think of wealthdiversification not just like it
doesn't just pertain in theslice of the financial stability
(16:43):
, it also pertains to satisfyingall of these other needs, it
gets super freaking interesting,right?
How I satisfy my need forpurpose is going to look very
different to you, ann, but tellme, right, how do you do that?
Let's learn from each other,and so it just becomes such a
deeper, richer conversation,because wealth is a state of
(17:05):
wellbeing.
That is what it is and it'sunique and personal to each of
us.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah, to remember that financial reward is not the
only type of reward.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
A hundred percent, a hundred percent, and it's it's
bubbling up.
I mean, like just this year,there's this bubbling up of a
questioning what ourrelationship to wealth and money
is.
So I'm not the first one tobring this up, but I do think
the wisdom in our body can helpour scarcity brain experience
something different.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
That scarcity brain.
It just reminds me in real lifeof how someone will say if I
just sell this many products,I'll be a success, or if I win
that award, I'll feel reallygreat, I'll be a success.
But, like as you know, as Iknow, when you get there, the
goalpost just shifts.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
A hundred percent.
It's always moving.
But what happens if that, ifthe mind is always in control of
our experience of wealth, wenever stop and rest.
If I bring awareness of how itfeels to be satisfied and I'm
going to give you a superconcrete example we know what a
nourishing meal feels like,right?
(18:17):
So think back of the last timeyou ate a meal.
Maybe it was home cooked, maybeit was from your favorite
restaurant.
We're like, oh my God, thatjust hit the spot right, and we
kind of close our eyes and wecan taste it in our mouth and we
just know what that feels like.
It's not too much.
And we just know what thatfeels like it's not too much,
it's not too little, it's likethe just enough with Goldilocks,
right.
We just know what that feelslike If we take more awareness
(18:38):
to those moments.
Anne and I literally tellpeople swallow.
Consume.
Consumption is an economic act.
Consume that experience ofbeing just right so that it goes
all the way down into everycell of your body and in this
moment you can just like trackthat you've had an experience of
enough.
Add that to your balance sheet,add that to your ledger.
(18:59):
Compound that experience ofmeaning, just like we compound
interest in our investmentaccounts.
Right, let your body have animportant role in your
experience of wealth, tocomplement the visionary
capacity of your mind and seewhat happens.
I mean, that's the power ofenough, where your well of
(19:21):
worthiness is just bubbling upbecause you're so full.
You open your eyes and you'relike wow, beginner's mind,
everything's possible.
But it's possible from a placeof fullness, not from a place of
grasping.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
But it's possible from a place of fullness, not
from a place of grasping.
I think there's a lot of innerwork here that people need to do
and not everybody is able orpracticed in accessing that
deeper inner side of this.
What do you say to people whocan't stop pushing?
I mean, I worked with clientswho had hundreds of millions of
(19:56):
dollars sometimes and they wereso stressed out, unhappy lives,
couldn't detach from work.
Just yeah, I mean it was mindboggling in some ways because I
thought you, of all people,could literally live a life that
you dream of and this is howyou're doing it.
So, like what do you say topeople who can't stop pushing?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, you know, again , what I love about my work is
that I get to use all thesemetaphors from like within the
industry, right.
And so I tell them hey, yourexcess and attachment to
overworking is actually creatinga negative return of investment
on other aspects of your life.
Right, it's a negative returnon investment.
And there's not a quicker waythan having them do this wealth
(20:41):
mandala, because, again, theclient I was talking about again
worth millions of dollars.
But when we do the wealthmandala and they're like I'm
scoring myself at a two andmultiple needs, oh, my goodness,
right, my life isn't fullysatisfied.
And, yes, we can start tochannel money in towards those
(21:02):
needs to make it more efficient.
We can hire cooks, we can docertain things, but there's the
deeper, it's the in your face.
Your relationship to money is amirror, right, and I agree with
you, anne, not everyone wants tolook.
That's fine, right, but if theydo want to look, a lot of what
I wanted to offer people weresimple tools to do it.
So the wealth mandala is asuper simple visual, but another
(21:25):
simple one that I wanted to putout there is a satiation
practice which, for 30 days, Itell them let's do a satiation
challenge for 30 days.
At the end of the day, I justwant you to write three things
that satisfied you.
Right, and don't think too muchabout it.
It could be you know what I hadthat hard conversation with a
client, or I went on the mostamazing run and I pushed myself.
Or you know what?
(21:46):
I went out dancing and I lovedit.
Or I had a meaningfulconversation for 30 days.
Just track list of one, two,three, three things that
satisfied you.
Takes 30 seconds right, and atthe end of 30 days, go back in
one sitting, read through yourlist and be like huh, here are
the strategies that are working,that actually give me that
sense of satisfaction.
Can I bring those strategies tothese areas that I'm feeling
(22:08):
lack?
What would that look like?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
And for anybody who's listening in, who maybe is
hearing our conversation andthinking well, that's a
privileged way of thinking.
I'm not in a position to evenmaybe evaluate my relationship
with money, because I just don'thave enough.
Do these tools still work forsomeone who is just starting out
(22:32):
?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So I would say a couple of things.
The power of enough is abirthright.
It is a human birthright thatthink of when a baby is born.
Just think they don't.
They're not thinking inscarcity.
So come back to the core.
You are in relationship withmoney.
If you have $1 to deal withbecause that $1 you make choice,
where's it going it might feellike you can't stretch it enough
(22:54):
, and I get that right.
You kind of want to cut it upand be like that dollar needs to
become five.
I understand that, but youstill have to be in relationship
with it, right?
You do not get a free pass.
Everyone is in relationship tomoney because we all have to
deal with it, right, and I thinkit's really important.
Nine out of 10 clients, anne,walk into my office and they say
(23:17):
I want enough money, I don'twant to think about it, I'm just
going to normalize it.
Everyone says it, I have feltit, you have felt it right, and
it just is because it isstressful.
But I think adulting isstressful.
Being a human is stressful,right, and the only time we
don't get to engage with it kindof when we're dead, right, and
(23:39):
so there's a way in which it'sjust part of being in the
material world, because it's oneof the ways in which we
exchange with each other.
But I think what's reallyimportant is to again decouple
money from wealth.
What's really important is toagain decouple money from wealth
.
Money is a tool for exchange.
Wealth is a state of wellbeingand what's happened is that, as
(24:02):
we've started to kind of losesome of those intimate
relationships, money has becomea stand-in for our sense of
self-worth, for our ability totrust each other, for our sense
of success, and that's why itfeels icky.
But if you start to separateand be like, hey, I can start to
have my relationship to wealth,I can increase my ability to
feel wealthy without adding $1to my bank account, because I
(24:24):
get more nuanced and better atcreating the strategies that
fulfill me.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Especially in this country, being so capitalist, it
can be hard, because it's notjust an internal battle but it's
also a fully cultural one.
I mean, money is so intertwinedwith identity and self-worth.
It's possibly one of the firstquestions people ask you in this
country is so what do you do?
And in some ways they're kindof sizing you up Are you worthy
(24:52):
of my time?
Ways they're kind of sizing youup Are you worthy of my time?
Basically like how wealthy areyou or how successful are you.
I mean, how can we change thatin these achievement oriented
circles?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So I think we can take small mindful steps.
I know for myself in my industry, when I'm sitting down and
talking to clients and we'regoing through kind of like their
assets and their liabilitiesand their debts, I consciously
try not to say net worth anddecouple worth from our
definition of money and we talkabout asset size, because I know
if I say net worth they'rehearing self-worth right, and so
(25:26):
that's one step that I'veactively said let's start
talking about asset size.
It's kind of more neutral,right, and when I talk about
your worth as a person, I go tothe wealth mandala and I say,
hey, what are we working on?
What are the areas that you'refeeling lack that I can start to
help you bring some moreresources to.
(25:47):
So I think that's oneparticular piece.
I think, too, is we can getmore nuance in how we respond to
that question what do you do,right?
Maybe we even start asking itdifferently, like, hey, you know
, what's one thing that reallymakes you excited in your life,
what are you passionate about?
We can ask different questionsand start there.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
This is really.
It's like money therapy.
I mean what you do.
You're a financial advisor, butI feel like you're providing
people with a deeperconversation.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, you know I'll be giving two keynotes this year
at financial advisor events.
To be like how can we, asfinancial advisors, have more
tools?
Right, because, again, we'rethe ones that people come to and
talk about money and so we havesuch an important role to do
the organization of financialstability.
That is a really important job.
(26:40):
Right, I can sit down and workthrough numbers and be like, hey
, this is the plan that we'recreating for you to get to the
numerical.
Enough, right, but that's onlyhalf of my work.
As we move there, what'shappening in these other areas
of your life and I'm not sayingevery financial advisor needs to
be a therapist, but they canhelp identify.
To be like, hey, this isactually gnawing at you, right,
(27:02):
I walked into a client's housethe other day again, financially
independent, retired, does notneed to worry about money.
But he told me in his wordsElizabeth, I feel less wealthy
because my body is starting tofail me and I can't do the fly
fishing trips that I love.
And I was like well said, wellsaid, you feel less wealthy not
(27:26):
because your accounts went down,because you can't fulfill some
of these other really importantneeds in your life.
And I just had to sit with himand be like you know what I'm
going to feel that grief withyou, because that's real.
I could have just said don'tworry about it, you just made 6%
.
But no, he was saying he wasfeeling less wealthy.
I had to just sit with that andbe like, yeah, you were right,
(27:46):
this sucks.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Which touches on another point that I think a lot
of people they put their livesand their health on hold while
they're chasing money, yeah, andthen they get the money and
they realize their body isbroken or not as capable, so
they don't have the time orability to do the things that
they never did.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, there was a great book that came out last
year called Die With Zero right.
I read it.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Bill Perkins Bill.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Perkins it was amazing, I loved it and I think
that was his point right Is thatwe trade a lot of times making
money for time and we don't knowwhat my future self is going to
be able to do.
So how do you prioritize thosememory dividends right, those
experiences that bring youmeaning, alongside prioritizing
(28:35):
trading your time for money?
And that's an equation that'salways in flux, but it's a
really important question thathe asks us.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
And I think it also covers topics like the
psychology around why it cansometimes feel so difficult to
spend money.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
There's that gnawing guilty feeling that doing so
would be irresponsible.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
A hundred percent right.
You may have saved your $20,000for your travel bucket, or
maybe it's $1,000, or maybe it's$200.
It doesn't really matter.
Whatever your number is, yousaved it, you met it.
Now it's time to go take thetrip.
And you go and you're like I'mfeeling uncomfortable, it's hard
to spend, it's hard to actuallylet that go.
You go on that trip.
You might have spent a lot ofmoney, but you didn't feel any
(29:28):
better.
That's empty consumption, right?
Speaker 1 (29:29):
That's the hungry ghost that we continue to feel.
We don't feel full.
Yeah, I think this might be mylife sort of battle.
In some ways I have a verynuanced relationship with money
because my dad came from a verypoor family.
My mom came from a very wealthyfamily, but my dad's family
that was poor was very rich inlove and connection, and my
mom's family that was rich wasvery poor in like trauma and bad
(29:54):
situations, and so it isconfusing to me.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, we are shaped not only by own experiences.
Yeah, we are shaped not only byown experiences.
Our families, our culture, whatcountry, right?
My grandfather was a product ofbeing, you know, a Jewish man
in World War II.
Europe, right.
And so he just came over toLatin America with scarcity that
I've had to work through in myown system.
(30:19):
So we have financial DNA isreal, right, financial DNA has a
lot of different voices, whichis what makes it confusing.
But the answer isn't shuttingdown or saying I want so much
more of you that I'll thinkabout it, because guess what?
More money, more problems, likeit is real, it's more complex.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
As I've been reading your book and also even just
listening to you talk about someof the lessons that you go over
in your book.
I'm not going to lie, the topicis slightly uncomfortable for
me.
It forces me to face somethingthat I have a lot of resistance
to, and it's going to take me awhile.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, it's a lifelong journey and a lot of times what
I tell people is we'll dothings for other people that
sometimes we don't do forourselves.
So I know for myself.
I finally decided to look at myrelationship to scarcity, which
I inherited from my grandfather, because I was committed to not
passing it on to my daughter,like I didn't know how to do it
(31:21):
for myself, but I knew it, thatI didn't want to pass it on to
her.
And I'm like, oh my God, clockis ticking, she's a teenager.
So I was like, okay, I'm goingto do it.
And I'm sure I passed onscarcity in some capacity, but
I'm also passing on theawareness that we talk a lot
about it and she knows our storyand what, how I'm growing with
it, right.
And so, for example, becausescarcity was part of my story
(31:48):
and I hate wasteful expenditures, right, I hate mistakes, like
I'm a perfect, I'm a recoveringperfectionist, and I married my
husband, who's kind of like anabsentee professor.
He's burnt pots, he's left hissuitcase in hotels, I mean like
random stuff.
That just like pisses me off.
I'm like, oh my God, I cannotbelieve it.
That was a $300 mistake.
And so at some point we sat downas a family and we agreed and
(32:08):
it was actually my daughter'sidea.
She's like, mom, we have allthis.
We have a budget with lineitems for food, for groceries,
for that or for gas or whatever.
Can we add a mistake line item?
I'm like what she's like yeah,can we just add a line item
where, if it's underneath acertain amount, we don't get
angry at each other and I'm like, oh my gosh, you're totally
(32:30):
right.
My anger is causing a negativereturn on investment in our
family because I'm stressingthem out.
And we added a mistake budgetof $200 a month where if there's
a mistake that's underneaththat, it's my responsibility to
deal with my emotions and notput it on them.
And I'm like it was brilliantand it came through engaging
(32:51):
with her and saying, hey, thisis where mama's struggling,
right, so it can be acollaborative effort to move
through those things that westruggle with.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
If someone is listening right now and they
feel really stuck in their feararound money, what's the very
first small step that you'regoing to have them take?
Speaker 2 (33:12):
If they're feeling fear, I literally want them to
grab a piece of paper and writethe top 10 things that are
causing fear.
Just do the dump right.
Do the dump of everythingthat's causing fear in their
life, because the first step isthe awareness that whatever
you're feeling is valid, andjust get it out there, right, so
that's the first thing.
Then I want them to take a stepback and just take a breath and
(33:35):
be like, okay, let me readthrough that list, right, maybe
I can scratch through those somethings that are perceived
versus actual fears, and maybe Ican choose that one fear that
if I were to address today wouldmake the most impact in how I
feel in my relationship to money.
And so then you select one andyou say, okay, who in my life
(33:55):
can help me with this fear?
And then it becomes a narrowfocus of, like that, if I were
to address this core issue,things start to change, and
that's how we work through theemotions, because emotions can
make us feel hazy or stuck orconfused.
So just give voice to them andwrite the top 10 things that
that emotion wants to say.
(34:15):
Take a step back and choose onestarting point.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
So for someone who's just starting out in their early
20s and you know things havechanged now the cost of living
is pretty high and wages havenot kept up.
What advice would you give themfor getting started with their
financial journey and theirplanning?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
A couple of things.
So first do kind of like amental detox of like, what are
the things that I thoughtdefined success?
And then you're like now let melook at my life, let me look at
what's coming in right and whatare those fixed expenses that I
need to pay for rent ormortgage or lights or food, et
cetera, and let me see whatwiggle room do I then have to
(34:57):
save and to automate thosesavings from day one.
Right, because if you save onday one, it happens.
If you save at the end of themonth, it never happens, because
we end up spending that surplus.
And then, two, if you're notable to save or you're not happy
with the level that you'reputting into your different
buckets, go back to your fixedexpenses and be like, hey, what
changes can I make, right?
(35:19):
Am I living by myself and maybeI'm up for living with one
other person and sharing theexpense of rent?
Or am I eating out too much andmaybe I'll start planning my
groceries more and cook more athome?
Am I taking Uber out ofconvenience and maybe I'll start
kind of like driving orplanning?
I think, once we start to bringthe planning in which again
(35:40):
it's kind of the scarcity mindat use is we can plan right how
we allocate resources.
I tell people financial planningeither happens by default or by
design.
Most people it's happening bydefault, but you can design it
and then start to design it andgive yourself the leeway of
having a quarterly check-in withyourself to be like what's
(36:02):
working right?
Where am I too tight?
You're like you know what?
That food budget that I gavemyself just doesn't feel good.
I'm not nourishing myself inthe way that I need to.
Let me modify that.
Where do I make adjustments?
Because the reality is, if weapproach financial planning from
a place of choice, somethingshifts.
Even if it's a limited numberof resources, how do we start to
(36:23):
bring an element of choice toit?
And I think the reality is thatthere is more choice than what
people give credit for.
It does require, perhaps,shifting some things and saying
I'm not going to live alone andbe like maybe I've discovered a
different part of myself when Ishare space with someone else,
so we can get more creative andwe can decouple from what the
(36:44):
past generations have definedsuccess to be.
It may not be that way.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I really like that, especially for today, and how
much it's changed since we wereall 20.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Well, and I'm thinking of, like my 14 year old
daughter, I'm like what's herjob prospect going to be like
with AI?
Right, there's so much changeon the horizon and so I think we
I mean that's how we havesurvived centuries is being
nimble.
We have to adapt.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
So, just as a final question here, if you could talk
to your younger self, let's saylike your early twenties
younger self, and talk toyourself about what true wealth
really means, how would youdefine it to yourself?
Like, what does it mean to you?
What advice would you giveyourself?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Uh, that's a great question, and so I think a
couple of things I would.
I tell my younger self thatwhat she has over me is a gift
of time, right, and we know thatfrom a financial strategy
standpoint, compounding interesthas greater impact over time.
So on one hand, I would say,start compounding interest
(37:56):
sooner, open that Roth IRA at 14, put a hundred bucks in.
But equally important is thepower of compounding meaning,
right, so those things canhappen in parallel where I'm
compounding interest and savingfrom a young age.
But compounding meaning andgetting super clear what are
those strategies that buildwealth in all 12 needs, not just
(38:20):
in my financial stability one,and if I understand the magic of
compounding more broadlymeaning and interest.
Oh my goodness, the wealthportfolio that 20-year-old can
build is amazing.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Elizabeth, thank you so much for coming on and
chatting with us.
Yeah, it's just been a reallyinsightful conversation.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Thank you, Anne, for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
It's just been a really insightful conversation,
thank you.
Thank you, anne, for having meToday's key takeaways.
Scarcity brain is real and it'snot your fault.
Our brains are wired forseeking, not for recognizing
enough.
If you've ever hit a milestoneand still felt unsatisfied, it's
not because you're ungrateful,it's because your biology hasn't
(39:06):
caught up with modern life.
The antidote is learning how toembody experiences of enough so
your nervous system learns torest.
Wealth is not the same as money.
Money is a tool, but wealth isa state of well-being.
You can have financial successand still feel empty, or have
(39:30):
modest resources and feel deeplyfulfilled.
Redefining wealth starts withtuning into what makes you feel
truly satisfied.
What does enough feel like?
What are the areas of your lifewhere you feel satisfied and
full, and what are the areas ofyour life where you feel lack?
More money won't fix a brokendefinition of wealth.
(39:55):
If your internal definition ofsuccess is flawed, no external
gain will ever feel like enough.
The Wealth Mandala a 360-degreelook at what really matters is
built on 12 human needs,including financial stability,
safety, physical health, freedom, purpose, understanding,
(40:18):
participation, belonging,connection, curiosity, leisure.
Belonging connection, curiosity, leisure and touch.
Elizabeth's Wealth Mandalainvites you to rate how
fulfilled you feel in each area.
From there, you can design bothmonetary and non-monetary
strategies to invest in theareas where you're running low,
(40:40):
so that you can plan withintention.
Try the conversation with moneyexercise.
Sit down literally and have adialogue with money.
Let your emotions speak firstanger, guilt, confusion and then
let money respond.
This gestalt exercise canreveal long-held beliefs and
(41:01):
relational patterns that shapeyour financial behavior.
Satiation is a practice.
Write down three things thatmade you feel satisfied every
day for 30 days.
At the end, reflect what worked.
What filled your cup.
Can you apply those strategiesin areas of your life where you
(41:23):
feel scarcity?
Mentally detox from others'definitions of success.
Define what wealth means to you.
Design a simple plan.
Automate savings early andallow your values, and not just
your income, to shape yourfinancial life.
Practice compounding interestand compounding meaning.
(41:46):
Yes, open the Roth IRA early,but also start noticing what
fills your soul.
Compounding meaningfulexperiences and embodying the
feeling of enough is as valuableas compounding dollars in your
accounts.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
(42:06):
Have a great day.
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McEntee, your host.
Today's guest is ElizabethHusserl, a financial advisor,
registered investment advisorrepresentative and the
co-founder of Peak360 WealthManagement, a boutique wealth
planning firm based here in theBay Area.
Elizabeth has this rare andfascinating blend of expertise.
(00:30):
She holds a degree in economicsfrom Tulane and a master's in
East-West psychology from theCalifornia Institute of Integral
Studies, where she's alsoserved as an adjunct professor.
Her work weaves together money,meaning entrepreneurship and
mental well-being, a thread Ifound both timely and deeply
(00:51):
resonant.
Before launching Peak360,elizabeth worked across the
Americas in non-profit settings.
Today, she's also asought-after speaker, having led
workshops at places like Airbnb.
She's also a sought afterspeaker, having led workshops at
places like Airbnb, unity andGoogle.
She lives in the Bay Area withher husband and daughter, and I
(01:13):
can't wait for you to hear theway she approaches personal
finance through the lens of bothhuman psychology and long-term
vision.
If you've been tuning in, youknow this show isn't about
selling anything.
It's about sharing meaningfulstories and learning along the
way.
If how I built my smallbusiness has brought you any
(01:35):
insight, inspiration or evenjust a spark of curiosity, there
are a few simple ways you cansupport the journey.
Follow the show, share yourfavorite episode with a friend
or leave a quick review.
Each one truly helps me growthis show.
Thank you, let's get started.
(01:55):
I'm just going to jump right in, and something that I've
noticed with myself and alsowith many people that I've
worked with is just that, nomatter how much we have, it
never quite feels like enough.
And I know you've done a lot ofwriting on this and you think
(02:17):
about it a lot.
Why do you think that that is?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
First and foremost, scarcity brain is real.
We're not crazy, right?
Our brains are wired to seek.
That is what's kept us alive.
That's why you and I are havingthis conversation.
Our brains and our mind center,we're seeking, we're analyzing,
we're forecasting, we'rescanning, right.
It has a really important job.
But our brains weren't wired aswe go through the whole dopamine
(02:43):
loop to then know when enoughis.
And so, if we don't lean intoother experiences, through our
heart center, through our mindcenter, to know what enough
feels like, we're constantly inthe loop of our scarcity brain
and that's why we feel thatyou're like wait a second.
Is abundance mindset the answer?
It's like no, because I'm stillusing my mind to try to call in
(03:04):
more.
So part of embodying wealth, inaddition to accumulating, is
literally learning how to havevisceral experiences of wealth
so that your scarcity brain canrelax and be like oh, what does
enough feel like?
What does it look like?
What strategies work?
Right?
It's almost like when you go tothe gym I'm like, oh yeah, that
(03:26):
workout felt amazing, that onenot so much right.
And so we have to start tolearn these strategies of enough
, because it's not intuitive toour brains.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Well, and enough is a relative term A hundred percent
.
For someone it might beaffording fresh food, and for
someone else it's like taking avacation without feeling any
guilt at all.
So how do you help your clientsdefine what enough really means
?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
We're trained in our culture to go to numbers when we
think about enough, right?
Like, how much do I need tomake in terms of income to cover
my expenses, to pay for thebills, et cetera?
So notice that we justnaturally do that which you know
.
And again, I have a job.
For a reason, I'm a financialplanner.
I'm in spreadsheets all daylong.
But I have to take it backagain and say let's start with
your needs, let's start withyour goals, right?
And so one of the core conceptsin my book called the Wealth
(04:19):
Mandala, which is based on onthe science of human needs, is
really understanding what arethe areas where clients feel
full and satisfied, what are theareas in which they're feeling
lack?
Right, that's where truepoverty lies, and it's very
unique and personal to yourpoint.
Right, it's very personal, it'svery relative.
And then we work backwards andbe like, okay, what if they're
(04:40):
not feeling enough in theirslice of pie for leisure?
We could argue I need to plan avacation.
So let's put pen to paper.
How much does it cost to takemy family?
Maybe I want to take them toHawaii, maybe I want to take
them on an adventure?
Right, we can put pen and paperand say, okay, this is my
travel goal for the year, let'swork backwards and start to fund
it.
There is a numerical response toit.
(05:02):
But what's just as equallyimportant, ann, is that if we
plan for a $20,000 trip and theygo on the trip and they're not
satisfied, they didn't actuallyrelax right, they didn't really
connect with their family, theywere working the whole time
because, you know, maybe they'rea workaholic If we don't really
satisfy the need for leisure,they come back from the trip.
They spent their 20 grand, theydon't feel satisfied.
(05:23):
So do you see how that loop is?
Both planning with numbers fora goal.
Let's make it happen.
But equally important is wasthat the right strategy to
satisfy that need?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Right.
Well, I mean and I guess ittakes some discipline too to
fully satisfy that need, thiswealth mandala that you
mentioned, how many differentcategories can you describe to
us?
What is included in this wealthmandala?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, I will describe it, but I'm going to answer
your first comment first.
It actually can be simpler thanwe think.
We actually know how to satisfyour needs, more than what we
give ourselves credit for, andI'll speak to how do we actually
discover that.
But the wealth mandala it'sbased on the science of human
needs, right, that we knowthrough Maslow and more
economists have developed.
I studied with an economistfrom Chile, manfred Maxneaf, and
(06:14):
it's based on 12 human needs,right, and so financial
stability, safety, physicalhealth, freedom, purpose,
understanding, participation,belonging, connection, curiosity
, leisure and touch.
And I also leave, anne, spacefor two needs, because it's
again, unique and personal.
(06:34):
Someone might have a reallyimportant need for creativity,
someone else for transcendence.
For me it's celebration, right?
So you do get to understand whoyou are and what's important.
And then what you do is thatyou take this mandala and you
rate on a scale of one to 10,how fulfilled are you currently
in each aspect, right?
A lot of times people come to meas a financial planner and they
want to talk financialstability.
(06:55):
Do I feel stable in myfinancial life?
Am I earning enough?
How am I spending?
Am I investing enough?
Am I planning for a rainy day.
Those are the questions.
I talk about a lot in financialstability.
Great, it's really important todo your work there.
But equally important is to seeam I feeling lack in any of
these one needs?
So, for example, right, I workwith a lot of clients in tech.
(07:16):
One guy came to me he was headof design of a pretty important
tech company and he scored a twoin his need for touch and I was
like, oh, tell me about that.
He's like you know what?
We're expecting our secondchild, and I actually feel
uncomfortable with the touch of,like, my first kid, and now I'm
feeling anxious about thesecond kid that's coming.
(07:37):
We had a really interestingconversation.
He was like I feel a lot ofgrief because I didn't receive
the touch I needed as a kid.
Right, my mom was just absent,right.
And so, notice, if we don't dothe wealth mandala, I don't know
.
This is part of what's givinghim a sense of scarcity and
anxiety.
And then we get to decide right,can we put some monetary
resources A?
You know, do you want to go seea therapist about it?
(07:59):
What do you?
How do you want to work with it?
Or do we bring somenon-monetary resources to it and
we just say, hey, let's bringthat to just like your awareness
with your family to see how canwe relax into it.
So do you see that there's somethings?
I think what the wealth mandaladoes is it points out that
there's really important waysthat money can support our life
and helping us feel enough, andthere's ways that it can't.
(08:21):
And the key premise of my workis that money and Money is one
tool and a technology.
Wealth is a state of well-being, and for far too long we have
confused the two, which is whatkeeps us in this rat race for I
(08:41):
need more money, I need moremoney, I need more money to feel
wealthy.
Then it's like a rat race thatwe can't get off.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, and even hearing you say it and I know
that logically it's true.
And yet, even knowing it andlogically understanding it, it
takes more than that, I think,to remove the emotional
component, to it.
Yeah, how do you detach fromgenerationally taught
(09:08):
relationships with money?
Speaker 2 (09:10):
It brings such a smile to my face because I think
actually it's through theemotions, you know, and I think
that's the other piece it's nottrying to be unemotional.
So one of my favorite exercisesis a gestalt chair exercise
called conversation with money.
It can be extremely hard andjarring right.
Every client I sit down and dothis exercise is like oh my God,
elizabeth, a, you're crazy andB, I feel resistance.
(09:31):
But what's interesting is thatwhen you sit down and literally
have a conversation with money,this isn't talking to money,
this is having conversation with, and what I mean by that is
that you get the opportunity toexpress the emotion you're
holding Like, god damn it, money, where have you been?
Right?
Or why is it that you come inso quickly and you leave so
quickly?
Or I don't know what to do withyou, like, you just make me
(09:54):
feel icky, right, you can putwhatever phrase you want.
I've seen it all.
I've had people like be likemoney, where have you been my
whole life?
Right, it's so personal andwhen you start to really explore
what's the emotion underneathit and then what's money's
response back, you start to see,huh, there's an interesting
dynamic that I am actuallyresponsible for, co-creating
(10:19):
right.
I just came off a client callwhen she was like, oh my God,
I'm recreating this codependencywith money because I just built
a business where I'msubsidizing all my employees and
I'm like, hmm, let's talk aboutthat, right.
And so what you start to see isour relational styles tend to
transfer into our relationshipwith our spouse, with our
(10:40):
friends, and our relationshipwith money.
And the more we're clear aboutthat, you and money can start to
sit down and be like, okay,let's clean slate, let's start
over.
How do we do this differently?
But it starts with takingresponsibility with how you're
showing up in it.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And how did you get to this point?
Was there a moment, somethingthat happened, that broadened
your perspective on how youpersonally have a relationship
with money?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Yeah, I mean I think there's been many kind of
milestones.
A couple important ones wasafter I graduated from my
economics degree.
As my undergrad I went andworked in Oaxaca, mexico, at a
local nonprofit and I was hiredto help indigenous women create
savings and loan cooperatives.
And so I'm like, oh great, Ihave a super tactical financial
(11:27):
instrument to go teach.
And, oh my goodness, anne and Ireceived so much more than what
I gave, because I received anexperience of wealth that was so
much broader than finances.
Yes, there was material povertyand I was there with a solution
to help adjust that.
But they were wealthy in theirconnection with the land, with
(11:48):
nature, with each other, withritual.
They were joyful people.
And I was like, huh, how isthere so much joy amongst
material poverty?
And why is it back in theStates?
We have so much more but wedon't feel as joyful.
And so that was the first kindof like kick in the butt in my
early twenties, like my workisn't back in Oaxaca, my work is
(12:10):
back in the States.
Even though I'm Latina, I go toLatin America for my dose of
joy.
Right, my work is in the States, where we have so much more,
but we feel scarcity, we feelpoor.
So that was one.
And then I think the second oneis you know, I did my
undergraduate in finance andeconomics and I did my graduate
in psychology and it was in thatgraduate program that one of my
(12:33):
professors sat me down or satus down in a workshop and taught
me that gestalt chair exerciseof a conversation with money.
And, anne, when I sat down andhad my first conversation with
money, I was so angry at it,right, I was like God damn it,
money, I'm trying to start myown business and you're not
showing up.
And I just went off on it and Ijust I gave it own business and
you're not showing up.
(12:54):
And I just went off on it and Ijust I gave it the list of the
ways to start showing up.
And then money, it was money'sturn and it turned around and
said Elizabeth, back off, youare holding on too tight and
you're being so unreasonable,like in.
Basically, money was likeyou're talking to me as if you
were talking to an old boyfriend, that you're really upset up
(13:14):
because they didn't show up inyour life.
And we went back and forth and Iwas able to realize that I was
starting something that hadnever been taught to me, which
is how to become an entrepreneur.
My parents had always been W2sright, they had been an employee
.
I wanted to do somethingdifferent.
I hadn't been taught how to dothat and I was feeling the
anxiety of something unknown.
(13:35):
And once I got that, I'm like,oh, that is what I need to learn
.
It's not money's fault that Idon't know how to do it.
Let me go find my mentors, findthe people in my life who have
been entrepreneurs, pick theirbrains and figure it out to how
to do it, and then I create aspace for money to come in in a
(13:55):
way that works.
So it just flipped it on itshead.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, that's interesting because a lot of us
do blame money for our problems,but really there's probably a
deeper route that we can dig outthere and actually potentially
solve our own problems.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
And that's where financial agency lies.
What do you mean by that?
Well, we want to feel empoweredwhen it comes to money.
Right, when I ask clients, whatdo you want to feel?
They're like I want to feelempowered, I want freedom, I
want to feel you know that, Iunderstand it Like there's all
these things that people talkabout in the relationship to
money, but it's almost likesaying I mean, imagine saying I
want to feel that in arelationship with my partner,
(14:36):
but I never sit down and talk tohim or her or it.
You know what I mean.
And so part of it is like okay,you want all these feelings,
but we have to do the work toget there.
We know marriage is tough work.
We know parenting is hard, butwe are connected to the outcome
of knowing that we can have agood relationship with, a
healthy relationship with it.
But we have to own our part.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Well, and money can often be a very taboo topic.
Yeah, a lot of people areunwilling to share their
personal experience with it, oreven share numbers.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
That's even another topic, that's why I wrote this
book without an ounce of numbersin there.
Right, and it surprises people.
They're like, oh, you're afinancial advisor and investment
manager and you wrote this book, and they were thinking that
they'd get like investing advice, and on purpose, because
there's so many books onfinancial literacy, I wanted to
write a book that was chock fullof, like many moments and
questions that we can askourselves and ask people in our
(15:33):
lives, so that we can starttalking more about our
experiences, what worked, whatdidn't.
And I think if we have that asthe entry point, we talk a lot
more about it.
Because once we bring numbersin, we go into comparative mode.
Right, do they make more thanme?
Do they spend more than me?
Do they have more debt than me?
That makes me feel good, right,like we go into comparative
(15:53):
mode.
So if we take the numbers asidefor a second, we can still talk
about money, we can still talkabout wealth.
Let's have those conversations.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, I really like what you were just saying right
there about not going intocomparative mode, because it's
like how you mentioned in yourbook the equation isn't a zero
sum.
It's not like I have to win andyou have to lose in order for
this to be a great equation.
It's like no, you win, I win,everybody wins.
Like that's a better option.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
A hundred percent.
And how we define wealth is sopersonal, right?
If we think of diversification,we normally think of it in like
let me diversify in terms ofasset classes or types of
investments I use, right,brokerage accounts, retirement
accounts.
But if we think of wealthdiversification not just like it
doesn't just pertain in theslice of the financial stability
(16:43):
, it also pertains to satisfyingall of these other needs, it
gets super freaking interesting,right?
How I satisfy my need forpurpose is going to look very
different to you, ann, but tellme, right, how do you do that?
Let's learn from each other,and so it just becomes such a
deeper, richer conversation,because wealth is a state of
(17:05):
wellbeing.
That is what it is and it'sunique and personal to each of
us.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah, to remember that financial reward is not the
only type of reward.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
A hundred percent, a hundred percent, and it's it's
bubbling up.
I mean, like just this year,there's this bubbling up of a
questioning what ourrelationship to wealth and money
is.
So I'm not the first one tobring this up, but I do think
the wisdom in our body can helpour scarcity brain experience
something different.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
That scarcity brain.
It just reminds me in real lifeof how someone will say if I
just sell this many products,I'll be a success, or if I win
that award, I'll feel reallygreat, I'll be a success.
But, like as you know, as Iknow, when you get there, the
goalpost just shifts.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
A hundred percent.
It's always moving.
But what happens if that, ifthe mind is always in control of
our experience of wealth, wenever stop and rest.
If I bring awareness of how itfeels to be satisfied and I'm
going to give you a superconcrete example we know what a
nourishing meal feels like,right?
(18:17):
So think back of the last timeyou ate a meal.
Maybe it was home cooked, maybeit was from your favorite
restaurant.
We're like, oh my God, thatjust hit the spot right, and we
kind of close our eyes and wecan taste it in our mouth and we
just know what that feels like.
It's not too much.
And we just know what thatfeels like it's not too much,
it's not too little, it's likethe just enough with Goldilocks,
right.
We just know what that feelslike If we take more awareness
(18:38):
to those moments.
Anne and I literally tellpeople swallow.
Consume.
Consumption is an economic act.
Consume that experience ofbeing just right so that it goes
all the way down into everycell of your body and in this
moment you can just like trackthat you've had an experience of
enough.
Add that to your balance sheet,add that to your ledger.
(18:59):
Compound that experience ofmeaning, just like we compound
interest in our investmentaccounts.
Right, let your body have animportant role in your
experience of wealth, tocomplement the visionary
capacity of your mind and seewhat happens.
I mean, that's the power ofenough, where your well of
(19:21):
worthiness is just bubbling upbecause you're so full.
You open your eyes and you'relike wow, beginner's mind,
everything's possible.
But it's possible from a placeof fullness, not from a place of
grasping.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
But it's possible from a place of fullness, not
from a place of grasping.
I think there's a lot of innerwork here that people need to do
and not everybody is able orpracticed in accessing that
deeper inner side of this.
What do you say to people whocan't stop pushing?
I mean, I worked with clientswho had hundreds of millions of
(19:56):
dollars sometimes and they wereso stressed out, unhappy lives,
couldn't detach from work.
Just yeah, I mean it was mindboggling in some ways because I
thought you, of all people,could literally live a life that
you dream of and this is howyou're doing it.
So, like what do you say topeople who can't stop pushing?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, you know, again , what I love about my work is
that I get to use all thesemetaphors from like within the
industry, right.
And so I tell them hey, yourexcess and attachment to
overworking is actually creatinga negative return of investment
on other aspects of your life.
Right, it's a negative returnon investment.
And there's not a quicker waythan having them do this wealth
(20:41):
mandala, because, again, theclient I was talking about again
worth millions of dollars.
But when we do the wealthmandala and they're like I'm
scoring myself at a two andmultiple needs, oh, my goodness,
right, my life isn't fullysatisfied.
And, yes, we can start tochannel money in towards those
(21:02):
needs to make it more efficient.
We can hire cooks, we can docertain things, but there's the
deeper, it's the in your face.
Your relationship to money is amirror, right, and I agree with
you, anne, not everyone wants tolook.
That's fine, right, but if theydo want to look, a lot of what
I wanted to offer people weresimple tools to do it.
So the wealth mandala is asuper simple visual, but another
(21:25):
simple one that I wanted to putout there is a satiation
practice which, for 30 days, Itell them let's do a satiation
challenge for 30 days.
At the end of the day, I justwant you to write three things
that satisfied you.
Right, and don't think too muchabout it.
It could be you know what I hadthat hard conversation with a
client, or I went on the mostamazing run and I pushed myself.
Or you know what?
(21:46):
I went out dancing and I lovedit.
Or I had a meaningfulconversation for 30 days.
Just track list of one, two,three, three things that
satisfied you.
Takes 30 seconds right, and atthe end of 30 days, go back in
one sitting, read through yourlist and be like huh, here are
the strategies that are working,that actually give me that
sense of satisfaction.
Can I bring those strategies tothese areas that I'm feeling
(22:08):
lack?
What would that look like?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
And for anybody who's listening in, who maybe is
hearing our conversation andthinking well, that's a
privileged way of thinking.
I'm not in a position to evenmaybe evaluate my relationship
with money, because I just don'thave enough.
Do these tools still work forsomeone who is just starting out
(22:32):
?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
So I would say a couple of things.
The power of enough is abirthright.
It is a human birthright thatthink of when a baby is born.
Just think they don't.
They're not thinking inscarcity.
So come back to the core.
You are in relationship withmoney.
If you have $1 to deal withbecause that $1 you make choice,
where's it going it might feellike you can't stretch it enough
(22:54):
, and I get that right.
You kind of want to cut it upand be like that dollar needs to
become five.
I understand that, but youstill have to be in relationship
with it, right?
You do not get a free pass.
Everyone is in relationship tomoney because we all have to
deal with it, right, and I thinkit's really important.
Nine out of 10 clients, anne,walk into my office and they say
(23:17):
I want enough money, I don'twant to think about it, I'm just
going to normalize it.
Everyone says it, I have feltit, you have felt it right, and
it just is because it isstressful.
But I think adulting isstressful.
Being a human is stressful,right, and the only time we
don't get to engage with it kindof when we're dead, right, and
(23:39):
so there's a way in which it'sjust part of being in the
material world, because it's oneof the ways in which we
exchange with each other.
But I think what's reallyimportant is to again decouple
money from wealth.
What's really important is toagain decouple money from wealth
.
Money is a tool for exchange.
Wealth is a state of wellbeingand what's happened is that, as
(24:02):
we've started to kind of losesome of those intimate
relationships, money has becomea stand-in for our sense of
self-worth, for our ability totrust each other, for our sense
of success, and that's why itfeels icky.
But if you start to separateand be like, hey, I can start to
have my relationship to wealth,I can increase my ability to
feel wealthy without adding $1to my bank account, because I
(24:24):
get more nuanced and better atcreating the strategies that
fulfill me.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Especially in this country, being so capitalist, it
can be hard, because it's notjust an internal battle but it's
also a fully cultural one.
I mean, money is so intertwinedwith identity and self-worth.
It's possibly one of the firstquestions people ask you in this
country is so what do you do?
And in some ways they're kindof sizing you up Are you worthy
(24:52):
of my time?
Ways they're kind of sizing youup Are you worthy of my time?
Basically like how wealthy areyou or how successful are you.
I mean, how can we change thatin these achievement oriented
circles?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So I think we can take small mindful steps.
I know for myself in my industry, when I'm sitting down and
talking to clients and we'regoing through kind of like their
assets and their liabilitiesand their debts, I consciously
try not to say net worth anddecouple worth from our
definition of money and we talkabout asset size, because I know
if I say net worth they'rehearing self-worth right, and so
(25:26):
that's one step that I'veactively said let's start
talking about asset size.
It's kind of more neutral,right, and when I talk about
your worth as a person, I go tothe wealth mandala and I say,
hey, what are we working on?
What are the areas that you'refeeling lack that I can start to
help you bring some moreresources to.
(25:47):
So I think that's oneparticular piece.
I think, too, is we can getmore nuance in how we respond to
that question what do you do,right?
Maybe we even start asking itdifferently, like, hey, you know
, what's one thing that reallymakes you excited in your life,
what are you passionate about?
We can ask different questionsand start there.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
This is really.
It's like money therapy.
I mean what you do.
You're a financial advisor, butI feel like you're providing
people with a deeperconversation.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah, you know I'll be giving two keynotes this year
at financial advisor events.
To be like how can we, asfinancial advisors, have more
tools?
Right, because, again, we'rethe ones that people come to and
talk about money and so we havesuch an important role to do
the organization of financialstability.
That is a really important job.
(26:40):
Right, I can sit down and workthrough numbers and be like, hey
, this is the plan that we'recreating for you to get to the
numerical.
Enough, right, but that's onlyhalf of my work.
As we move there, what'shappening in these other areas
of your life and I'm not sayingevery financial advisor needs to
be a therapist, but they canhelp identify.
To be like, hey, this isactually gnawing at you, right,
(27:02):
I walked into a client's housethe other day again, financially
independent, retired, does notneed to worry about money.
But he told me in his wordsElizabeth, I feel less wealthy
because my body is starting tofail me and I can't do the fly
fishing trips that I love.
And I was like well said, wellsaid, you feel less wealthy not
(27:26):
because your accounts went down,because you can't fulfill some
of these other really importantneeds in your life.
And I just had to sit with himand be like you know what I'm
going to feel that grief withyou, because that's real.
I could have just said don'tworry about it, you just made 6%
.
But no, he was saying he wasfeeling less wealthy.
I had to just sit with that andbe like, yeah, you were right,
(27:46):
this sucks.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Which touches on another point that I think a lot
of people they put their livesand their health on hold while
they're chasing money, yeah, andthen they get the money and
they realize their body isbroken or not as capable, so
they don't have the time orability to do the things that
they never did.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, there was a great book that came out last
year called Die With Zero right.
I read it.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Bill Perkins Bill.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Perkins it was amazing, I loved it and I think
that was his point right Is thatwe trade a lot of times making
money for time and we don't knowwhat my future self is going to
be able to do.
So how do you prioritize thosememory dividends right, those
experiences that bring youmeaning, alongside prioritizing
(28:35):
trading your time for money?
And that's an equation that'salways in flux, but it's a
really important question thathe asks us.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
And I think it also covers topics like the
psychology around why it cansometimes feel so difficult to
spend money.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
There's that gnawing guilty feeling that doing so
would be irresponsible.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
A hundred percent right.
You may have saved your $20,000for your travel bucket, or
maybe it's $1,000, or maybe it's$200.
It doesn't really matter.
Whatever your number is, yousaved it, you met it.
Now it's time to go take thetrip.
And you go and you're like I'mfeeling uncomfortable, it's hard
to spend, it's hard to actuallylet that go.
You go on that trip.
You might have spent a lot ofmoney, but you didn't feel any
(29:28):
better.
That's empty consumption, right?
Speaker 1 (29:29):
That's the hungry ghost that we continue to feel.
We don't feel full.
Yeah, I think this might be mylife sort of battle.
In some ways I have a verynuanced relationship with money
because my dad came from a verypoor family.
My mom came from a very wealthyfamily, but my dad's family
that was poor was very rich inlove and connection, and my
mom's family that was rich wasvery poor in like trauma and bad
(29:54):
situations, and so it isconfusing to me.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, we are shaped not only by own experiences.
Yeah, we are shaped not only byown experiences.
Our families, our culture, whatcountry, right?
My grandfather was a product ofbeing, you know, a Jewish man
in World War II.
Europe, right.
And so he just came over toLatin America with scarcity that
I've had to work through in myown system.
(30:19):
So we have financial DNA isreal, right, financial DNA has a
lot of different voices, whichis what makes it confusing.
But the answer isn't shuttingdown or saying I want so much
more of you that I'll thinkabout it, because guess what?
More money, more problems, likeit is real, it's more complex.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
As I've been reading your book and also even just
listening to you talk about someof the lessons that you go over
in your book.
I'm not going to lie, the topicis slightly uncomfortable for
me.
It forces me to face somethingthat I have a lot of resistance
to, and it's going to take me awhile.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, it's a lifelong journey and a lot of times what
I tell people is we'll dothings for other people that
sometimes we don't do forourselves.
So I know for myself.
I finally decided to look at myrelationship to scarcity, which
I inherited from my grandfather, because I was committed to not
passing it on to my daughter,like I didn't know how to do it
(31:21):
for myself, but I knew it, thatI didn't want to pass it on to
her.
And I'm like, oh my God, clockis ticking, she's a teenager.
So I was like, okay, I'm goingto do it.
And I'm sure I passed onscarcity in some capacity, but
I'm also passing on theawareness that we talk a lot
about it and she knows our storyand what, how I'm growing with
it, right.
And so, for example, becausescarcity was part of my story
(31:48):
and I hate wasteful expenditures, right, I hate mistakes, like
I'm a perfect, I'm a recoveringperfectionist, and I married my
husband, who's kind of like anabsentee professor.
He's burnt pots, he's left hissuitcase in hotels, I mean like
random stuff.
That just like pisses me off.
I'm like, oh my God, I cannotbelieve it.
That was a $300 mistake.
And so at some point we sat downas a family and we agreed and
(32:08):
it was actually my daughter'sidea.
She's like, mom, we have allthis.
We have a budget with lineitems for food, for groceries,
for that or for gas or whatever.
Can we add a mistake line item?
I'm like what she's like yeah,can we just add a line item
where, if it's underneath acertain amount, we don't get
angry at each other and I'm like, oh my gosh, you're totally
(32:30):
right.
My anger is causing a negativereturn on investment in our
family because I'm stressingthem out.
And we added a mistake budgetof $200 a month where if there's
a mistake that's underneaththat, it's my responsibility to
deal with my emotions and notput it on them.
And I'm like it was brilliantand it came through engaging
(32:51):
with her and saying, hey, thisis where mama's struggling,
right, so it can be acollaborative effort to move
through those things that westruggle with.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
If someone is listening right now and they
feel really stuck in their feararound money, what's the very
first small step that you'regoing to have them take?
Speaker 2 (33:12):
If they're feeling fear, I literally want them to
grab a piece of paper and writethe top 10 things that are
causing fear.
Just do the dump right.
Do the dump of everythingthat's causing fear in their
life, because the first step isthe awareness that whatever
you're feeling is valid, andjust get it out there, right, so
that's the first thing.
Then I want them to take a stepback and just take a breath and
(33:35):
be like, okay, let me readthrough that list, right, maybe
I can scratch through those somethings that are perceived
versus actual fears, and maybe Ican choose that one fear that
if I were to address today wouldmake the most impact in how I
feel in my relationship to money.
And so then you select one andyou say, okay, who in my life
(33:55):
can help me with this fear?
And then it becomes a narrowfocus of, like that, if I were
to address this core issue,things start to change, and
that's how we work through theemotions, because emotions can
make us feel hazy or stuck orconfused.
So just give voice to them andwrite the top 10 things that
that emotion wants to say.
(34:15):
Take a step back and choose onestarting point.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
So for someone who's just starting out in their early
20s and you know things havechanged now the cost of living
is pretty high and wages havenot kept up.
What advice would you give themfor getting started with their
financial journey and theirplanning?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
A couple of things.
So first do kind of like amental detox of like, what are
the things that I thoughtdefined success?
And then you're like now let melook at my life, let me look at
what's coming in right and whatare those fixed expenses that I
need to pay for rent ormortgage or lights or food, et
cetera, and let me see whatwiggle room do I then have to
(34:57):
save and to automate thosesavings from day one.
Right, because if you save onday one, it happens.
If you save at the end of themonth, it never happens, because
we end up spending that surplus.
And then, two, if you're notable to save or you're not happy
with the level that you'reputting into your different
buckets, go back to your fixedexpenses and be like, hey, what
changes can I make, right?
(35:19):
Am I living by myself and maybeI'm up for living with one
other person and sharing theexpense of rent?
Or am I eating out too much andmaybe I'll start planning my
groceries more and cook more athome?
Am I taking Uber out ofconvenience and maybe I'll start
kind of like driving orplanning?
I think, once we start to bringthe planning in which again
(35:40):
it's kind of the scarcity mindat use is we can plan right how
we allocate resources.
I tell people financial planningeither happens by default or by
design.
Most people it's happening bydefault, but you can design it
and then start to design it andgive yourself the leeway of
having a quarterly check-in withyourself to be like what's
(36:02):
working right?
Where am I too tight?
You're like you know what?
That food budget that I gavemyself just doesn't feel good.
I'm not nourishing myself inthe way that I need to.
Let me modify that.
Where do I make adjustments?
Because the reality is, if weapproach financial planning from
a place of choice, somethingshifts.
Even if it's a limited numberof resources, how do we start to
(36:23):
bring an element of choice toit?
And I think the reality is thatthere is more choice than what
people give credit for.
It does require, perhaps,shifting some things and saying
I'm not going to live alone andbe like maybe I've discovered a
different part of myself when Ishare space with someone else,
so we can get more creative andwe can decouple from what the
(36:44):
past generations have definedsuccess to be.
It may not be that way.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I really like that, especially for today, and how
much it's changed since we wereall 20.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Well, and I'm thinking of, like my 14 year old
daughter, I'm like what's herjob prospect going to be like
with AI?
Right, there's so much changeon the horizon and so I think we
I mean that's how we havesurvived centuries is being
nimble.
We have to adapt.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
So, just as a final question here, if you could talk
to your younger self, let's saylike your early twenties
younger self, and talk toyourself about what true wealth
really means, how would youdefine it to yourself?
Like, what does it mean to you?
What advice would you giveyourself?
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Uh, that's a great question, and so I think a
couple of things I would.
I tell my younger self thatwhat she has over me is a gift
of time, right, and we know thatfrom a financial strategy
standpoint, compounding interesthas greater impact over time.
So on one hand, I would say,start compounding interest
(37:56):
sooner, open that Roth IRA at 14, put a hundred bucks in.
But equally important is thepower of compounding meaning,
right, so those things canhappen in parallel where I'm
compounding interest and savingfrom a young age.
But compounding meaning andgetting super clear what are
those strategies that buildwealth in all 12 needs, not just
(38:20):
in my financial stability one,and if I understand the magic of
compounding more broadlymeaning and interest.
Oh my goodness, the wealthportfolio that 20-year-old can
build is amazing.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Elizabeth, thank you so much for coming on and
chatting with us.
Yeah, it's just been a reallyinsightful conversation.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Thank you, Anne, for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
It's just been a really insightful conversation,
thank you.
Thank you, anne, for having meToday's key takeaways.
Scarcity brain is real and it'snot your fault.
Our brains are wired forseeking, not for recognizing
enough.
If you've ever hit a milestoneand still felt unsatisfied, it's
not because you're ungrateful,it's because your biology hasn't
(39:06):
caught up with modern life.
The antidote is learning how toembody experiences of enough so
your nervous system learns torest.
Wealth is not the same as money.
Money is a tool, but wealth isa state of well-being.
You can have financial successand still feel empty, or have
(39:30):
modest resources and feel deeplyfulfilled.
Redefining wealth starts withtuning into what makes you feel
truly satisfied.
What does enough feel like?
What are the areas of your lifewhere you feel satisfied and
full, and what are the areas ofyour life where you feel lack?
More money won't fix a brokendefinition of wealth.
(39:55):
If your internal definition ofsuccess is flawed, no external
gain will ever feel like enough.
The Wealth Mandala a 360-degreelook at what really matters is
built on 12 human needs,including financial stability,
safety, physical health, freedom, purpose, understanding,
(40:18):
participation, belonging,connection, curiosity, leisure.
Belonging connection, curiosity, leisure and touch.
Elizabeth's Wealth Mandalainvites you to rate how
fulfilled you feel in each area.
From there, you can design bothmonetary and non-monetary
strategies to invest in theareas where you're running low,
(40:40):
so that you can plan withintention.
Try the conversation with moneyexercise.
Sit down literally and have adialogue with money.
Let your emotions speak firstanger, guilt, confusion and then
let money respond.
This gestalt exercise canreveal long-held beliefs and
(41:01):
relational patterns that shapeyour financial behavior.
Satiation is a practice.
Write down three things thatmade you feel satisfied every
day for 30 days.
At the end, reflect what worked.
What filled your cup.
Can you apply those strategiesin areas of your life where you
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feel scarcity?
Mentally detox from others'definitions of success.
Define what wealth means to you.
Design a simple plan.
Automate savings early andallow your values, and not just
your income, to shape yourfinancial life.
Practice compounding interestand compounding meaning.
(41:46):
Yes, open the Roth IRA early,but also start noticing what
fills your soul.
Compounding meaningfulexperiences and embodying the
feeling of enough is as valuableas compounding dollars in your
accounts.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
(42:06):
Have a great day.
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