September 2, 2025 • 34 mins
Israa Nasir is a New York City–based psychotherapist, writer, and the founder of WellGuide, a digital community dedicated to mental health awareness.
With a master’s in counseling and advanced training in Cognitive Behavioral and Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy, she’s dedicated her career to mental health.
Israa has built a community of over 350,000 followers with her evidence-based approach to mental health and productivity. She’s the author of Toxic Productivity, where she unpacks the hidden drivers of overwork and offers tools for balance. Her work has been featured in Forbes, Harvard Business Review, and Time, and she’s spoken at Google, Instagram, Microsoft, and major conferences like SXSW.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is how I Built my Small Business, a show that
started with business foundingand growth stories in season one
and has evolved in season twoto highlight more expertise from
incredible thought leaders.
Each episode is an invitationto learn through storytelling,
and at the end, I always distillthe key takeaways for you.
Today's guest is Isra Nasser, aNew York-based.
(00:22):
Today's guest is Isra Nasser, aNew York-based psychotherapist,
writer and founder of WellGuide, a digital community for mental
health awareness.
With a master's in counselingand advanced training in
cognitive, behavioral andrational emotive behavioral
therapy, she's dedicated hercareer to mental health therapy.
(00:48):
She's dedicated her career tomental health.
Isra has built a community ofover 350,000 followers with her
evidence-based approach tomental health and productivity.
She's the author of ToxicProductivity, where she unpacks
the hidden drivers of overworkand offers tools for balance.
Her work has been featured inForbes, harvard Business Review
and Time, and she's spoken atGoogle, instagram, microsoft and
(01:10):
major conferences like South bySouthwest.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Why do we pursue the things we pursue?
Why do we do what we do?
What I was seeing in theresearch was that our emotions
that are not resolved willcompel you to do things to get
externally motivated self-worth.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And why do you think it is that we feel such a level
of?
Maybe it's false reward frombeing so busy, keeping ourselves
constantly chasing these goals?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
constantly chasing these goals.
So the way we are wired tooperate, we need both internal
and external motivation, and weneed internal and external
validation.
As human beings we need both.
What's happened is, over time,as a society, we have over
indexed on the external, and asour society shifted to a little
bit more tech enabled,globalization started happening.
Jobs became more competitive,like the narrative around
(02:10):
success started to change.
It no longer was just oh,success is you just have a job
and you have a family and youlive in a suburb community.
It was like you need to have anincredible job, you have to be
a founder before 30.
And so the pressure reallychanged late Gen X onwards, and
that's, I think, because of theintersection of technology,
capitalism, like.
(02:30):
I don't think we can talk aboutthis without talking about that
globalization.
So all of these forces haveshaped our culture and what has
come out of that is this idea orunderstanding that success can
only happen if you look likewhat other people are doing and
that's amplified.
What happens is people.
They overwork, they hustle andgrind and you sleep on your
(02:52):
death, and then you come to thisbreaking point where your
ambition no longer matters toyou.
It doesn't spark joy in youbecause you have over committed
and you've overdone.
So the idea here is how can weshift to be sustainable over the
long term, so we don't loseconnection to ourselves and our
passions?
And one way is to internalizesome of that validation.
(03:15):
And there's many ways people cando this, but I talk about three
that I find to be easy toaccess and available for
everyone.
So the first is engaging in acreative hobby for the sake of
creation.
So not hobbies to monetize, nothobbies to put on Instagram or
create an Etsy shop out of.
Don't even track your progress,right, you don't have to get
(03:37):
better at it.
Last year was my year ofhobbies, and every three months
I picked up a new hobby andintentionally made the decision
to just be mediocre at it, andyou know it was very challenging
, especially the performativehobbies like improv.
Like I really just like myinternal desire to like excel
really kicked in on stage, but Ireally had to be like no,
(03:59):
you're not, you're just doingthis for vibes, you know.
And so that's a really good wayto start building that muscle,
because it exists.
We develop that way.
We just lose it over timebecause of the academic system,
the way our parents are workculture right, and now social
media.
So one is hobbies, one is IRLcommunities.
(04:20):
Digital communities are reallyamazing for increasing access
and connection, but they don'tactually give you the benefit of
what it means to sitface-to-face with someone.
So having more face time withyour community, your friends,
your neighbors, in, again, anon-performative way, is very
important.
So no one's taking Instagramphotos of your tablescape, we
(04:40):
are just having a dinner andmaybe we're eating out of paper
plates and maybe it's justtakeout.
Maybe no one is dressed up andwe're just sitting on the couch.
We need to bring that energyback so that the present moment
is enough, so that we don't haveto capture it for a future
state of validation byperforming it for the world.
The third one is to identifywhere in your life you can
(05:02):
invite some good enough points.
You know, before you start aproject or before you start
planning your trip or whateverit is that you're doing,
identify the pieces that areokay to just be good enough and
release the pressure ofperfection.
So intentionally acceptingwhere you will be good enough
allows you to show up better,for where it matters that you
are perfect or you are excellent, and so these three things are
(05:24):
just habit shifts that we canmake, that can start building
that muscle of internalvalidation.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I like what you're saying and the first point that
you made about non-monetizedcreative outlets really hits
home, because that's what I'vedone with this podcast.
You touched on a point earlierwhere you had said capitalism
and being in America with it.
So capitalistic and it's almostimpossible to not at least a
(05:51):
little bit compare yourself.
When you're just starting outyour career, when you're in your
20s, going into your late 20sand into your 30s, most of us, I
would think, at some point inour lives, live check to check.
So how are people supposed tobreak out of check to check
without checking, kind of eatinginto that sacred time that
(06:14):
they've set aside for themselvesthe evening hours, the weekends
, like I know that when I was inmy early twenties I worked
seven days a week because I feltI didn't have another choice.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And I think that's a reality for many people.
And so the idea of rest andcreativity and joy.
It's not meant to be a rewardyou get after you finish your
work.
I think if we get out of thislike black and white, thinking
that I have to be done work andthen only I can rest because now
I've earned it or now Iactually have the time for it,
right, that keeps us trapped inthe no rest loop.
(06:49):
So I think that the point is tointegrate rest into your
day-to-day habits.
That requires you to shift yourfundamental definition of rest.
A lot of us think that restingis like endless times of doing
nothing, that you need the wholeday to be sitting at the beach
to recuperate.
But research shows you could doa 90 second meditation and a
three minute meditation and thatstill counts as a restful
(07:11):
activity.
Thinking about the rest in thismicro way is really important.
And the second thing isresearch has shown there's
actually seven types of rest.
So there's, you know, spiritual, emotional, physical, communal.
There's seven differentcategories of rest, and so
thinking about what isaccessible to you that week.
(07:31):
So I think it's aboutdiversifying what rest actually
looks like in your life as well.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And how do you feel about goal?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
setting.
I think goals are reallyimportant.
I think, the way that we arewired neurologically, we need an
end point, otherwise time canfeel very overwhelming.
I think that there is a dangerwhen we set too many goals.
Let's say I'm just going to usemy example of writing a book.
Now that is so big.
In order for that to happen,multiple things need to be true.
(08:02):
First, right, and so I couldshift my perspective into.
My purpose is to shareinformation with people, and
then I can create goals aroundthat that are more specific and
time-bound, like really thinkingabout what can I achieve in the
next 30 days that will help meachieve this bigger thing that I
(08:23):
want?
Right, and sometimes it's asmall thing, like changing your
routine.
Literally, it will take youfour weeks to change a habit in
your life, so it's like thinkingabout it like that.
Like, let's say, let's say Iwant to write a book, just to
elaborate a little, I firstmaybe need to get in the habit
of writing.
Well, right, and so maybe forthree months, for 90 days, I'm
(08:44):
going to make a commitment thatI'm going to write for 15, 20
minutes a day, or I'm going towrite three pages a day.
That gets that muscle going andthat makes me more likely to
achieve the goal of writing abook versus just being like, oh
my God, I got to write a bookand I start writing a book.
And the most important part ofgoal setting is something called
psychological flexibility.
Psychological flexibility isyour ability to adapt when
(09:08):
changes happen, so it's yourmind's ability to shift
perspective and adapt when newinformation starts coming in,
aka change.
So like that's a reallyimportant part of goal setting,
because uncertain things happenall the time, like our entire
life is uncertain.
So goals are important becauseit keeps us anchored, but we
need to have the ability toadapt our goals as our life
(09:30):
changes.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
That would make you enjoy the journey.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Exactly.
Enjoy the journey.
You understand the steps thatare required for the journey,
right.
It gives you more power inknowledge and insight on how
things happen.
I guess like a more accessibleexample would be like January
one.
Everyone's like I'm going towork out four days a week, it'll
be a 60 minute workout sessionand I'm going to change my body
by summer.
Those people often are nolonger at the gym by day 45,
(09:55):
right, and so why?
Because the goal was too big.
So going from zero to four daysof working out a week is not
realistic.
So that's what I mean byrealistic Look at your life and
think about what is the smallestunit of behavior change that
you can integrate that will moveyou towards the larger goal.
Maybe it's just one day a weekyou start with.
(10:16):
Maybe you start with 15 minutes, right, and then you just build
up from there.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Well and this takes a lot of work to go internal and
to really think about what it isthat you want to achieve and
why.
How do you feel about otherpeople's opinions of you?
Or like, how do you teachothers to maybe not care about
what other people think of them,their perspective on how
(10:41):
successful they are?
I mean, I know so many peoplewho deeply care that their
public perception is one ofimmense success.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yes, there's like two questions in there.
So one is like how do you stopcaring about other people's
opinion?
Two is how do you separate thesense of pride you feel from
what other people view you as?
And I'm kind of smiling whenyou ask the question, cause I'm
Asian, I was raised by Asianimmigrant parents.
Like this is like the lifebloodof the culture, at least
Pakistani culture is.
Like what are people going tosay?
(11:12):
That's like an actual phrasethat parents use all the time.
So it's like a really big partof many people's fundamental
framework and worldview, right,even if you're not Asian.
But so the first point is Ithink it's okay to feel pride in
the way other people perceiveyou.
That I don't necessarily feellike we have to get rid of that.
I think what we have to add isthat your sense of pride in what
(11:35):
you do is stronger than thepride you get from the way other
people view you.
External validation isimportant.
We don't want to get rid ofthat.
What we want to strengthen isour own ability to see our value
even when other people don't.
That is the journey, right, andso the way to kind of stop
caring about other people'sopinions.
(12:00):
First of all I'll say to anylistener who struggles with this
is that this is not like anovernight.
There is no quick fix to thisbecause this is a lifelong
learning.
We learn very quickly,irrespective of who your parents
are, that you got to fall inline right, depending on what
career you've chosen.
Some workplaces really, reallydemand that you know.
If you are like a young doctor,you have to fall in line.
(12:20):
You have to care about whatyour superiors think of you,
right.
So if you struggle with thisand it leads you to people
pleasing, it leads you to likeavoidant conflict tendencies.
You don't say what you want orwhat you need.
It's not something that you canmake go away in like 30 days,
and that's not the point.
The point is for you to slowlybuild self-trust again.
(12:42):
When people struggle with caringtoo much about other people's
opinion, what's lacking isself-trust.
What's lacking is the trust inyour own ability to care for
yourself.
In the discomfort of someone'sdisappointment it's too
overwhelming.
So you're like I don't want tofeel that disappointment because
I don't know if I can handle it.
So the journey really beginswith that.
(13:03):
How do you start trustingyourself again?
You know a very low hangingfruit way of doing it is try to
make decisions without askingsomeone for input.
If you're somebody who all likethis was me, and to some degree
it is me I'll always text myyounger sister before buying an
outfit.
Because she's younger than me,you know, she's a little more
connected to fashion trends andshe's more stylish, so I had
(13:25):
become dependent on hervalidation to purchase clothes.
Now, in order for me to kind ofbreak out of that habit, I did
have to start slowly buying likea shoe or a dress without
texting her.
That was very hard for me, andso the baby step was I'd buy it
and then I'd text her right, andthen slowly it shifted away
from like I'll buy it and thenshe'll just see it when I'm
(13:45):
wearing it.
It's like in these small waysyou start building your own
sense of trust, and so this canhappen for other things too.
This is like a little bit of alow stakes example, but that's
how you can do that.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I was having a little bit of a chuckle when you were
saying that, because I amnotoriously indecisive and I
think maybe it has something todo with the way that I was
raised as well Big family, asianfamily and recently was on a
group trip with some friends andit's like when decisions would
(14:16):
come up, what do you want to do?
I mean, I think I freeze andI'm like well, I'm happy to do
whatever.
What does everybody else wantto do?
I think that it's really hardto trust your opinion when you
haven't had practice with it.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
The answer is in the thing you just said when you
haven't had practice.
So it is a muscle thateverybody can learn.
It doesn't even matter if youhave a clinical condition like
anxiety or ADHD.
It's just a learned behavior.
It's nothing inherent ormoralistic.
Or a lot of times people saythat you know, oh, you're so
indecisive.
There's like this, like moraljudgment to it.
But it's not.
It's just a learned behaviorthat we can unlearn.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah, you're right, we just need to practice it in
little ways there, we just needto practice it in little ways.
There was something that youmentioned at the beginning of
your book that also resonatedwith me, and that's when you
were talking about how you usedto almost only read nonfiction
books, and there is somethingabout constantly wanting to
(15:10):
better ourselves, right,constantly wanting to be a
better and better version, right, like constantly wanting to be
a better and better version.
So how do you tackle your realdeep desire to learn and improve
and have that personaldevelopment, while also
understanding that there is apoint at which you really need
to learn, have more balance?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I think we have to have balance by understanding
that fiction teaches us as well.
Fiction teaches us criticalthinking.
Self-help books will give youthe solution.
They'll be like A plus B equalsC, whereas with fiction you
have to read through and kind ofdo deductive reasoning and then
realize at the end it was like,oh, a plus B equals C.
Right, you are buildingintelligence through fiction.
(15:53):
You are also building empathy.
I think there is a very strongcorrelation between the lack of
empathy societally and theincrease of personal, individual
self-help.
Self-help is always individual,it's about you character.
(16:14):
You have to understand them.
You can't just sympathize withthem, you have to empathize with
them, and that changes ouremotional intelligence.
So I mean, this is something Ithink about a lot, by the way,
and so I think fiction teachesus critical thinking, deductive
reasoning, empathy, and we haveto understand that those are
valuable, key skills that arerequired us, required for us to
be in good relationships,romantically, be good friends
and also be good leaders at work.
If you cannot empathize withyour teammates at work, like
(16:38):
you're going to be a nightmareto work with, no one's going to
want to work with you, and so Ihad to shift into that mindset
and really, really go back to myroots of reading.
As we have grown older, andespecially in this, like big
boom of personal development,self-growth in the last 12 years
, every new book that comes outis telling you, hey, like you're
(17:01):
missing this fundamental thingincluding mine, right, and it is
enormously beneficial forpeople Like I have learned so
much from so many books.
And so what I say to people andI've always said this and I
don't know if it's the bestthing to say, but I have always
said it is like, only pick upthis book If you are at a moment
in your life where you need it.
Like if you are at a moment inyour life where you need it,
like if you're not strugglingwith productivity, if you feel
kind of good about your jobright now and you don't really
care about other things, likedon't pick it up.
Pick it up.
(17:21):
Pick up any self-help book whenyou genuinely need it, not
because you heard about it in apodcast or you read about it in
the New York times, because theself-help industry is about
perpetuating deficiency.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
How do you feel about this concept of, like, chronic
busyness, and is it somethingthat you've seen across nations,
or is this America's problem?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I definitely think it's like a North America
problem, for sure, with someWestern European nations, but
predominantly at a global scale.
It's definitely a North Americaproblem and problem.
But then you can also see thatNorth American countries have
some of the highest GDPs in theworld.
So, like there, there is areason, right?
I have a lot of friends whowork in finance and I'm always
(18:07):
like we should, you know, blah,blah, blah, four day work week,
and they're like the countriesthat employ it are either really
really tiny or their GDPs arefailing, and so it's like this
constant battle between, youknow, capitalism and wellness.
But I think that work is centerto North American identity,
right, the nationhood or thestory of America is you can come
(18:28):
here and you can build yourselffrom anything, not from nothing
to anything, right, it's inlike the origin narrative of
America, so it's very hard tokind of take that away.
The factories came up here, likeinvention happened here, right,
but in other countries, like Igrew up in the Middle East, like
, the relationship to work isvery different and those
countries are very wealthy aswell and they operate, right,
(18:49):
but it's not centered to theirexistence.
I'm originally Pakistani andwork culture is very different
there, and so I definitely thinkthat there's a pro and con to
each.
I think that the way our workculture is set up, it leads to a
lot of loneliness, like you'rekind of seeing this in South
Korea, right?
Like the work culture there hasbecome so immensely toxic, and
(19:13):
so the birth rates were falling,and so they had to create this
like mandated, like cut off timeto work, and so the birth rates
were falling, and so they hadto create this like mandated,
like cut off time to work, andlike they're trying to implement
a four day work week so thatpeople can have time to have
families and have children.
You know there are there aresome places in East Asia that
are adopting this culture too.
But I think it's just aboutcoming back to balance.
I think we need to beproductive, we need to have
innovation, we need to becreative and work hard, but the
(19:42):
way I see it is, these type ofspurts of very unhealthy or
imbalanced productivity shouldbe exceptions in your life.
They should not be the rule inyour life.
So even in the workplace, thereare going to be sprint times
where you're just like I got toget this, like me when the book
was coming out in November, sixweeks before, I was just like 18
cylinders, like I don't, youknow, right, I was just going so
fast.
But I knew that I had adeadline, I knew this was an
(20:04):
exception and I think that'swhat we need to bring into our
regular lives.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Is high spurt, like high productivity, like no
boundaries, doing work till likemidnight, like that should be
exceptional like no boundaries,doing work till like midnight,
like that should be exceptional,yeah, and yeah, not the norm
for sure.
I asked you that questionbecause I also have a very
multicultural family and myhusband is from New Zealand and
it's probably one of the mostobvious differences that I've
(20:31):
recognized between their cultureand ours is Kiwis truly know
how to just be without doing,and I know very few people in
America who can just be, and Ijust have wondered, like, where
did we go wrong?
Like is this hitting us inearly childhood?
(20:52):
Is it our education system oris it the cost of living?
Do we just want too much?
Like are we such consumeriststhat we need so much money?
And so then that drive formoney is causing us to kind of
be workaholics and overachievers.
Like, how do you feel aboutmoney and its relationship to
(21:14):
why people are chronically busy?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
You're kind of speaking to a socio-political,
cultural context, right, andthere's no one singular answer
as to like why America is theway it is.
America just has more potential, right, like people don't move
here because they don't wantpotential.
Like as somebody who's animmigrant, my parents moved from
Middle East to Canada.
Like in Canada, as part of likeof this conversation of like
(21:40):
North America, there ispotential to achieve a lot
People are just kind of likestriving to use money as a way
to protect their futures.
You know, in a way that I don'tthink we did before In the US,
if you don't have a job, youdon't have healthcare, you need
to work in order to go to thedoctor.
Like that is always mindblowing to me because it's just
(22:03):
not a good system, right, we'rethe only country with like
medical debt.
So money is a really importantthing, but I think it provides a
lot of security and safety topeople and so it drives you to
do more.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
However, there's like other factors that also play
into it.
Yeah, and I, I well, I thinkthat I see a little bit of
overlap in the.
You know, enough is neverenough when it comes to success,
but I also feel that manypeople feel that enough is never
enough when it comes to moneytoo.
So I just there's a little bitof a parallel there Absolutely,
yeah, as a therapist, I knowyou're, uh, you have WellGuide,
which I believe is a digitalmental health support group or
(22:42):
system, and you're writing,you're speaking.
I mean, you are quote unquotevery successful in what you're
doing.
What kind of boundaries do youset for yourself?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
It requires a lot of emotional regulation.
I genuinely believe thatemotional regulation is the key
to making it an anythingrelationship, friendship,
parenting, whatever, instagramcontent creation.
The goal is not to never feelstuff, because you'll always
feel it.
You're a human person, right?
It's your emotional reaction islike an uncontrolled activity
in your brain.
The power is in regulating itand talking yourself through it.
(23:17):
It's also really important tosurround yourself with people
who are going to keep it realfor you, who you can talk with,
you can share, and they don'tneed to be in the same industry
as you, but they can be realwith you and they can say, hey,
this is not necessary, or you'respiraling, or, I think, asking
for help and reaching out andbeing vulnerable with like two
people or three people.
That's really helpful inhelping set boundaries.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And, aside from this, are there any other tools that
you use for that emotionalregulation that you had
mentioned?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
For some people, like affirmations are really helpful
, but for me, like I just needto talk myself through it.
And the conversation is eitheryou follow your irrational
thought, right, so oh, if youdon't post today, like your
analytics are going to drop,okay, so what.
And then blah, blah, blah willhappen because of that.
Okay, then, so what, right.
And then so you kind of followthis.
So what line of thinking tohelp you realize that the thing
(24:07):
that feels so big for you isactually not that impactful or
consequential.
So you kind of like lay bareyour own irrationality through
talking to yourself, and sothat's a really powerful
cognitive tool that you can use.
And then I also do a lot oflike voice memo journaling.
I can't always sit down andwrite, but I'll use the voice
(24:28):
memo app and just kind of likeget the thoughts out and it's
not going anywhere.
No one needs to hear it again,even I don't, but it's helpful
to just get it out.
It's another form of journalingif you don't like writing.
And then I also have a list ofthings that I enjoy doing when I
feel bad, and it's in my notesapp, because when you feel bad
(24:48):
and when you feel like veryactivated, you can't access the
logical part of your brain justbecause the way the brain is
working in that moment the frontpart of your brain has shut
down and that's a logical center, right.
So a lot of times, like, youcan't even remember like the
most basic things that help youfeel better, you just can't.
And so having it written downin a note on your, on your phone
, is like so helpful.
(25:09):
You can just like pick it upand you know we have decision
fatigue right now on streamingso just the write down for
movies that you really likegoing back to an album that you
like listening to, that makesyou feel better, so that you're
not searching in that moment.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I really liked that one where you were saying, well,
so what?
And then you answer it, okay,oh well, so what After that?
That's a really great exercisethat I'm going to try to
remember.
I know that self-pressure issomething that I personally
struggle with.
I know other people thatstruggle with it.
Self-pressure is something thatI personally struggle with, I
know other people that strugglewith it, and I was also
wondering if you have any ideasfor where that self-pressure
(25:44):
actually comes from, because mylogical brain can say, okay, now
is the time to just relax, stopworrying about that, but then
I'll have this pressure that I'mnot doing enough.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Sometimes the self-pressure can be too great
and it's not well-placed.
Self-pressure is effectivelyyour inner critic, right?
And the inner critic is thisvoice that we have in our head
that is developed over time.
That is usually like a mix ofparent, some teachers, maybe you
had some friends who you hadsome negative experiences as a
child with.
It's usually a voice thatdeveloped very early on in life
(26:21):
that polices you and it becomesso fused with our self-concept
that when we get into adulthoodwe actually forget that this is
not our voice.
So when you're resting andthere's a voice telling you you
are lazy, get up.
There's a pile of laundry onthe floor, like what kind of
person leaves their laundry onthe floor.
We believe this is our voicetelling us this.
(26:45):
It's not.
It is our inner critic, whichis a separate voice.
So when we want to kind ofcombat self pressure we have to
first identify the inner critic.
You know, I think it requiressome introspection, but not time
consuming introspection.
You can really just pause andask yourself who sounds like
this in my life.
(27:05):
Every time you have a negativethought that's critical of
policing or shaming, literally,all you have to do is just be
like who does this sound likeand you'll be like oh my gosh,
it sounds like my mom, right.
Or it sounds like that whateverPE teacher who told me that I
couldn't run or whatever right,and so like that itself in the
small habit, will create thisdistance.
So what we're looking for is tocreate distance from the
(27:26):
thought so that we canexternalize it and that we can
manage and process, because whenit's fused with our sense of
self, what you feel is shame,not guilt.
Shame is a really powerfulemotion and shame can make you
do destructive things withouteven you realizing it.
When you actually push it out,it first becomes guilt.
Guilt is a much better place tobe in, because guilt is I'm
(27:49):
doing something bad.
It's so action oriented.
You'd move to change how youfeel right, but guilt is easier
to release than shame.
Shame is very core.
So the first thing you want todo is you want to like, hey,
like who does this sound likeRight?
And then just kind of startgoing from there.
Then you can do the.
So what conversation?
Then you can fact checkyourself Right, whatever this
thought is, you can say is thistrue?
(28:10):
Is there evidence for it Right?
What's the evidence for andagainst Like?
You can do this like a lot ofcognitive work and at the same
time, I think it's reallyhelpful to learn how to relax
your body when you're feelinguncomfortable.
That was my problem, because mydefense mechanism is
intellectualizing.
I can just like I cancognitively, do all the things
right.
I can do the distance, I can dothe fact checking, but I was
(28:31):
not very in touch with my body.
So my body would be wound up.
I would be stressed Like myshoulders would be wound up.
I would be stressed Like myshoulders would be up to my ear,
like I'd be restless, I wouldfeel uncomfortable, like I just
was so disconnected from my body.
It's kind of like thinking back.
I'm just like wow.
So it's also helpful to likereally get into your body and
the easiest, smallest way is todeep breathe.
(28:51):
Four deep breaths, take it infor four, hold for two, let it
out for six, take it in for four, hold for two, let it out for
six.
Just super simple.
Then you can go into the morecomplicated, involved somatic
practices, but just the mostbasic thing is just take a
couple of deep breaths and likerelax your body.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So important.
I think a lot of us shallowbreathe without even realizing
it, throughout the entire day.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
It's called like digital asphyxia.
I don't know if you've heardthe phrase, but you might notice
that you're actually holdingyour breath while you're
scrolling, like once I noticedit I couldn't not notice it,
cause your body's so stressedbecause of the scrolling Cause
it's so overwhelming for thebrain that actually you can hold
your breath for some time andnot realize it.
(29:32):
That makes you feel really bad.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, wow, that's making me also want to check in
on my kids and make sure thatthey aren't holding their breath
throughout the day.
Yeah, we need to breathe.
Like our cells, they needoxygen.
Well, so, just as a finalquestion here, if you could go
back and sit down and have aconversation with yourself when
you were in your early twenties,how do you imagine that
conversation would go?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I think that a I would tell her that I admire a
lot of things about her.
I would tell her that herfearlessness, her like ability
to like leap and just do thethings without fear took her to
amazing places.
So I would definitely tell herto keep that.
I think it's important toappreciate the things that have
helped you come this far.
(30:18):
Her to keep that.
I think it's important toappreciate the things that have
helped you come this far.
So I would say that.
And the second thing I wouldsay to her is to maybe not be so
concerned with achieving fast.
Really just think, take sometime Like it's okay, like it's
not a failure just because itdidn't happen as fast as you
wanted, like I think I was veryconsumed with speed, you know,
(30:40):
and if it wasn't happening fastenough, it wasn't good enough.
I think I would tell thatperson to slow down a little and
appreciate things a little bitmore.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
That's very sweet.
Yeah Well, Isra, thank you somuch for coming on and it's been
a great conversation.
Thanks for coming.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
I loved your last question, bythe way.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Today's key takeaways .
Understand where motivationcomes from.
Unresolved emotions often pushus toward chasing external
validation.
As humans, we need bothinternal and external motivation
, but today's culture puts heavypressure on achieving success
in outward, performative ways.
(31:24):
The antidote is to reconnectwith yourself and to ask
yourself what nourishes me, notjust what looks good to others.
Other ways to reconnect withyourself are engaging in a
creative hobby purely for thejoy of creating, not for any
performance or productivity.
Invest in real life, communityfriendships, family and groups
(31:49):
where you feel grounded andconnected in real life.
Practice self-acceptance bygiving yourself good enough
points in areas where perfectionjust isn't necessary.
Rest and joy aren't rewards youearn only after finishing your
to-do list.
They're really essential dailypractices.
(32:10):
Even a 90-second tothree-minute break can reset
your mind and body.
Remember the seven types ofrest that you may need.
There's physical, mental,emotional, social, sensory,
creative and spiritual.
Goals anchor us, but instead offocusing only on the big picture
(32:31):
goal, ask what can Irealistically achieve in the
next 30 days?
These shorter horizons keepmotivation fresh and it reduces
overwhelm.
Big spurts of productivity arenormal, but they should be the
exception and not the standard.
There will be times when youreally need to work overtime,
(32:54):
but you shouldn't be doing thatall the time.
Build rhythms of sustainableoutput rather than living in
constant overdrive.
Try the so what technique whensomething feels overwhelming.
This will help you see whetherit's truly as big as it seems.
Keep a note in your phonelisting activities that lift
(33:14):
your mood.
When you're down, you caneasily access this list and use
logic to guide you back tothings you know help.
When we're emotionallydysregulated, it can be very
hard, if not impossible, tothink logically.
When you hear a harsh, criticalinner voice, ask whose voice
does this sound like?
(33:35):
Naming it helps separate itfrom your true self.
And then practice compassionand speak to yourself like you
would a good friend.
And finally, achievement is nota race.
So slow down, take deep breathsthroughout the day and remember
life isn't just about reachingthe finish line, it's about the
(33:57):
entire journey.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
This is how I Built my Small Business, a show that
started with business foundingand growth stories in season one
and has evolved in season twoto highlight more expertise from
incredible thought leaders.
Each episode is an invitationto learn through storytelling,
and at the end, I always distillthe key takeaways for you.
Today's guest is Isra Nasser, aNew York-based.
(00:22):
Today's guest is Isra Nasser, aNew York-based psychotherapist,
writer and founder of WellGuide, a digital community for mental
health awareness.
With a master's in counselingand advanced training in
cognitive, behavioral andrational emotive behavioral
therapy, she's dedicated hercareer to mental health therapy.
(00:48):
She's dedicated her career tomental health.
Isra has built a community ofover 350,000 followers with her
evidence-based approach tomental health and productivity.
She's the author of ToxicProductivity, where she unpacks
the hidden drivers of overworkand offers tools for balance.
Her work has been featured inForbes, harvard Business Review
and Time, and she's spoken atGoogle, instagram, microsoft and
(01:10):
major conferences like South bySouthwest.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Why do we pursue the things we pursue?
Why do we do what we do?
What I was seeing in theresearch was that our emotions
that are not resolved willcompel you to do things to get
externally motivated self-worth.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
And why do you think it is that we feel such a level
of?
Maybe it's false reward frombeing so busy, keeping ourselves
constantly chasing these goals?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
constantly chasing these goals.
So the way we are wired tooperate, we need both internal
and external motivation, and weneed internal and external
validation.
As human beings we need both.
What's happened is, over time,as a society, we have over
indexed on the external, and asour society shifted to a little
bit more tech enabled,globalization started happening.
Jobs became more competitive,like the narrative around
(02:10):
success started to change.
It no longer was just oh,success is you just have a job
and you have a family and youlive in a suburb community.
It was like you need to have anincredible job, you have to be
a founder before 30.
And so the pressure reallychanged late Gen X onwards, and
that's, I think, because of theintersection of technology,
capitalism, like.
(02:30):
I don't think we can talk aboutthis without talking about that
globalization.
So all of these forces haveshaped our culture and what has
come out of that is this idea orunderstanding that success can
only happen if you look likewhat other people are doing and
that's amplified.
What happens is people.
They overwork, they hustle andgrind and you sleep on your
(02:52):
death, and then you come to thisbreaking point where your
ambition no longer matters toyou.
It doesn't spark joy in youbecause you have over committed
and you've overdone.
So the idea here is how can weshift to be sustainable over the
long term, so we don't loseconnection to ourselves and our
passions?
And one way is to internalizesome of that validation.
(03:15):
And there's many ways people cando this, but I talk about three
that I find to be easy toaccess and available for
everyone.
So the first is engaging in acreative hobby for the sake of
creation.
So not hobbies to monetize, nothobbies to put on Instagram or
create an Etsy shop out of.
Don't even track your progress,right, you don't have to get
(03:37):
better at it.
Last year was my year ofhobbies, and every three months
I picked up a new hobby andintentionally made the decision
to just be mediocre at it, andyou know it was very challenging
, especially the performativehobbies like improv.
Like I really just like myinternal desire to like excel
really kicked in on stage, but Ireally had to be like no,
(03:59):
you're not, you're just doingthis for vibes, you know.
And so that's a really good wayto start building that muscle,
because it exists.
We develop that way.
We just lose it over timebecause of the academic system,
the way our parents are workculture right, and now social
media.
So one is hobbies, one is IRLcommunities.
(04:20):
Digital communities are reallyamazing for increasing access
and connection, but they don'tactually give you the benefit of
what it means to sitface-to-face with someone.
So having more face time withyour community, your friends,
your neighbors, in, again, anon-performative way, is very
important.
So no one's taking Instagramphotos of your tablescape, we
(04:40):
are just having a dinner andmaybe we're eating out of paper
plates and maybe it's justtakeout.
Maybe no one is dressed up andwe're just sitting on the couch.
We need to bring that energyback so that the present moment
is enough, so that we don't haveto capture it for a future
state of validation byperforming it for the world.
The third one is to identifywhere in your life you can
(05:02):
invite some good enough points.
You know, before you start aproject or before you start
planning your trip or whateverit is that you're doing,
identify the pieces that areokay to just be good enough and
release the pressure ofperfection.
So intentionally acceptingwhere you will be good enough
allows you to show up better,for where it matters that you
are perfect or you are excellent, and so these three things are
(05:24):
just habit shifts that we canmake, that can start building
that muscle of internalvalidation.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I like what you're saying and the first point that
you made about non-monetizedcreative outlets really hits
home, because that's what I'vedone with this podcast.
You touched on a point earlierwhere you had said capitalism
and being in America with it.
So capitalistic and it's almostimpossible to not at least a
(05:51):
little bit compare yourself.
When you're just starting outyour career, when you're in your
20s, going into your late 20sand into your 30s, most of us, I
would think, at some point inour lives, live check to check.
So how are people supposed tobreak out of check to check
without checking, kind of eatinginto that sacred time that
(06:14):
they've set aside for themselvesthe evening hours, the weekends
, like I know that when I was inmy early twenties I worked
seven days a week because I feltI didn't have another choice.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And I think that's a reality for many people.
And so the idea of rest andcreativity and joy.
It's not meant to be a rewardyou get after you finish your
work.
I think if we get out of thislike black and white, thinking
that I have to be done work andthen only I can rest because now
I've earned it or now Iactually have the time for it,
right, that keeps us trapped inthe no rest loop.
(06:49):
So I think that the point is tointegrate rest into your
day-to-day habits.
That requires you to shift yourfundamental definition of rest.
A lot of us think that restingis like endless times of doing
nothing, that you need the wholeday to be sitting at the beach
to recuperate.
But research shows you could doa 90 second meditation and a
three minute meditation and thatstill counts as a restful
(07:11):
activity.
Thinking about the rest in thismicro way is really important.
And the second thing isresearch has shown there's
actually seven types of rest.
So there's, you know, spiritual, emotional, physical, communal.
There's seven differentcategories of rest, and so
thinking about what isaccessible to you that week.
(07:31):
So I think it's aboutdiversifying what rest actually
looks like in your life as well.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And how do you feel about goal?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
setting.
I think goals are reallyimportant.
I think, the way that we arewired neurologically, we need an
end point, otherwise time canfeel very overwhelming.
I think that there is a dangerwhen we set too many goals.
Let's say I'm just going to usemy example of writing a book.
Now that is so big.
In order for that to happen,multiple things need to be true.
(08:02):
First, right, and so I couldshift my perspective into.
My purpose is to shareinformation with people, and
then I can create goals aroundthat that are more specific and
time-bound, like really thinkingabout what can I achieve in the
next 30 days that will help meachieve this bigger thing that I
(08:23):
want?
Right, and sometimes it's asmall thing, like changing your
routine.
Literally, it will take youfour weeks to change a habit in
your life, so it's like thinkingabout it like that.
Like, let's say, let's say Iwant to write a book, just to
elaborate a little, I firstmaybe need to get in the habit
of writing.
Well, right, and so maybe forthree months, for 90 days, I'm
(08:44):
going to make a commitment thatI'm going to write for 15, 20
minutes a day, or I'm going towrite three pages a day.
That gets that muscle going andthat makes me more likely to
achieve the goal of writing abook versus just being like, oh
my God, I got to write a bookand I start writing a book.
And the most important part ofgoal setting is something called
psychological flexibility.
Psychological flexibility isyour ability to adapt when
(09:08):
changes happen, so it's yourmind's ability to shift
perspective and adapt when newinformation starts coming in,
aka change.
So like that's a reallyimportant part of goal setting,
because uncertain things happenall the time, like our entire
life is uncertain.
So goals are important becauseit keeps us anchored, but we
need to have the ability toadapt our goals as our life
(09:30):
changes.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
That would make you enjoy the journey.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Exactly.
Enjoy the journey.
You understand the steps thatare required for the journey,
right.
It gives you more power inknowledge and insight on how
things happen.
I guess like a more accessibleexample would be like January
one.
Everyone's like I'm going towork out four days a week, it'll
be a 60 minute workout sessionand I'm going to change my body
by summer.
Those people often are nolonger at the gym by day 45,
(09:55):
right, and so why?
Because the goal was too big.
So going from zero to four daysof working out a week is not
realistic.
So that's what I mean byrealistic Look at your life and
think about what is the smallestunit of behavior change that
you can integrate that will moveyou towards the larger goal.
Maybe it's just one day a weekyou start with.
(10:16):
Maybe you start with 15 minutes, right, and then you just build
up from there.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Well and this takes a lot of work to go internal and
to really think about what it isthat you want to achieve and
why.
How do you feel about otherpeople's opinions of you?
Or like, how do you teachothers to maybe not care about
what other people think of them,their perspective on how
(10:41):
successful they are?
I mean, I know so many peoplewho deeply care that their
public perception is one ofimmense success.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yes, there's like two questions in there.
So one is like how do you stopcaring about other people's
opinion?
Two is how do you separate thesense of pride you feel from
what other people view you as?
And I'm kind of smiling whenyou ask the question, cause I'm
Asian, I was raised by Asianimmigrant parents.
Like this is like the lifebloodof the culture, at least
Pakistani culture is.
Like what are people going tosay?
(11:12):
That's like an actual phrasethat parents use all the time.
So it's like a really big partof many people's fundamental
framework and worldview, right,even if you're not Asian.
But so the first point is Ithink it's okay to feel pride in
the way other people perceiveyou.
That I don't necessarily feellike we have to get rid of that.
I think what we have to add isthat your sense of pride in what
(11:35):
you do is stronger than thepride you get from the way other
people view you.
External validation isimportant.
We don't want to get rid ofthat.
What we want to strengthen isour own ability to see our value
even when other people don't.
That is the journey, right, andso the way to kind of stop
caring about other people'sopinions.
(12:00):
First of all I'll say to anylistener who struggles with this
is that this is not like anovernight.
There is no quick fix to thisbecause this is a lifelong
learning.
We learn very quickly,irrespective of who your parents
are, that you got to fall inline right, depending on what
career you've chosen.
Some workplaces really, reallydemand that you know.
If you are like a young doctor,you have to fall in line.
(12:20):
You have to care about whatyour superiors think of you,
right.
So if you struggle with thisand it leads you to people
pleasing, it leads you to likeavoidant conflict tendencies.
You don't say what you want orwhat you need.
It's not something that you canmake go away in like 30 days,
and that's not the point.
The point is for you to slowlybuild self-trust again.
(12:42):
When people struggle with caringtoo much about other people's
opinion, what's lacking isself-trust.
What's lacking is the trust inyour own ability to care for
yourself.
In the discomfort of someone'sdisappointment it's too
overwhelming.
So you're like I don't want tofeel that disappointment because
I don't know if I can handle it.
So the journey really beginswith that.
(13:03):
How do you start trustingyourself again?
You know a very low hangingfruit way of doing it is try to
make decisions without askingsomeone for input.
If you're somebody who all likethis was me, and to some degree
it is me I'll always text myyounger sister before buying an
outfit.
Because she's younger than me,you know, she's a little more
connected to fashion trends andshe's more stylish, so I had
(13:25):
become dependent on hervalidation to purchase clothes.
Now, in order for me to kind ofbreak out of that habit, I did
have to start slowly buying likea shoe or a dress without
texting her.
That was very hard for me, andso the baby step was I'd buy it
and then I'd text her right, andthen slowly it shifted away
from like I'll buy it and thenshe'll just see it when I'm
(13:45):
wearing it.
It's like in these small waysyou start building your own
sense of trust, and so this canhappen for other things too.
This is like a little bit of alow stakes example, but that's
how you can do that.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I was having a little bit of a chuckle when you were
saying that, because I amnotoriously indecisive and I
think maybe it has something todo with the way that I was
raised as well Big family, asianfamily and recently was on a
group trip with some friends andit's like when decisions would
(14:16):
come up, what do you want to do?
I mean, I think I freeze andI'm like well, I'm happy to do
whatever.
What does everybody else wantto do?
I think that it's really hardto trust your opinion when you
haven't had practice with it.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
The answer is in the thing you just said when you
haven't had practice.
So it is a muscle thateverybody can learn.
It doesn't even matter if youhave a clinical condition like
anxiety or ADHD.
It's just a learned behavior.
It's nothing inherent ormoralistic.
Or a lot of times people saythat you know, oh, you're so
indecisive.
There's like this, like moraljudgment to it.
But it's not.
It's just a learned behaviorthat we can unlearn.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah, you're right, we just need to practice it in
little ways there, we just needto practice it in little ways.
There was something that youmentioned at the beginning of
your book that also resonatedwith me, and that's when you
were talking about how you usedto almost only read nonfiction
books, and there is somethingabout constantly wanting to
(15:10):
better ourselves, right,constantly wanting to be a
better and better version, right, like constantly wanting to be
a better and better version.
So how do you tackle your realdeep desire to learn and improve
and have that personaldevelopment, while also
understanding that there is apoint at which you really need
to learn, have more balance?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I think we have to have balance by understanding
that fiction teaches us as well.
Fiction teaches us criticalthinking.
Self-help books will give youthe solution.
They'll be like A plus B equalsC, whereas with fiction you
have to read through and kind ofdo deductive reasoning and then
realize at the end it was like,oh, a plus B equals C.
Right, you are buildingintelligence through fiction.
(15:53):
You are also building empathy.
I think there is a very strongcorrelation between the lack of
empathy societally and theincrease of personal, individual
self-help.
Self-help is always individual,it's about you character.
(16:14):
You have to understand them.
You can't just sympathize withthem, you have to empathize with
them, and that changes ouremotional intelligence.
So I mean, this is something Ithink about a lot, by the way,
and so I think fiction teachesus critical thinking, deductive
reasoning, empathy, and we haveto understand that those are
valuable, key skills that arerequired us, required for us to
be in good relationships,romantically, be good friends
and also be good leaders at work.
If you cannot empathize withyour teammates at work, like
(16:38):
you're going to be a nightmareto work with, no one's going to
want to work with you, and so Ihad to shift into that mindset
and really, really go back to myroots of reading.
As we have grown older, andespecially in this, like big
boom of personal development,self-growth in the last 12 years
, every new book that comes outis telling you, hey, like you're
(17:01):
missing this fundamental thingincluding mine, right, and it is
enormously beneficial forpeople Like I have learned so
much from so many books.
And so what I say to people andI've always said this and I
don't know if it's the bestthing to say, but I have always
said it is like, only pick upthis book If you are at a moment
in your life where you need it.
Like if you are at a moment inyour life where you need it,
like if you're not strugglingwith productivity, if you feel
kind of good about your jobright now and you don't really
care about other things, likedon't pick it up.
Pick it up.
(17:21):
Pick up any self-help book whenyou genuinely need it, not
because you heard about it in apodcast or you read about it in
the New York times, because theself-help industry is about
perpetuating deficiency.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
How do you feel about this concept of, like, chronic
busyness, and is it somethingthat you've seen across nations,
or is this America's problem?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I definitely think it's like a North America
problem, for sure, with someWestern European nations, but
predominantly at a global scale.
It's definitely a North Americaproblem and problem.
But then you can also see thatNorth American countries have
some of the highest GDPs in theworld.
So, like there, there is areason, right?
I have a lot of friends whowork in finance and I'm always
(18:07):
like we should, you know, blah,blah, blah, four day work week,
and they're like the countriesthat employ it are either really
really tiny or their GDPs arefailing, and so it's like this
constant battle between, youknow, capitalism and wellness.
But I think that work is centerto North American identity,
right, the nationhood or thestory of America is you can come
(18:28):
here and you can build yourselffrom anything, not from nothing
to anything, right, it's inlike the origin narrative of
America, so it's very hard tokind of take that away.
The factories came up here, likeinvention happened here, right,
but in other countries, like Igrew up in the Middle East, like
, the relationship to work isvery different and those
countries are very wealthy aswell and they operate, right,
(18:49):
but it's not centered to theirexistence.
I'm originally Pakistani andwork culture is very different
there, and so I definitely thinkthat there's a pro and con to
each.
I think that the way our workculture is set up, it leads to a
lot of loneliness, like you'rekind of seeing this in South
Korea, right?
Like the work culture there hasbecome so immensely toxic, and
(19:13):
so the birth rates were falling,and so they had to create this
like mandated, like cut off timeto work, and so the birth rates
were falling, and so they hadto create this like mandated,
like cut off time to work, andlike they're trying to implement
a four day work week so thatpeople can have time to have
families and have children.
You know there are there aresome places in East Asia that
are adopting this culture too.
But I think it's just aboutcoming back to balance.
I think we need to beproductive, we need to have
innovation, we need to becreative and work hard, but the
(19:42):
way I see it is, these type ofspurts of very unhealthy or
imbalanced productivity shouldbe exceptions in your life.
They should not be the rule inyour life.
So even in the workplace, thereare going to be sprint times
where you're just like I got toget this, like me when the book
was coming out in November, sixweeks before, I was just like 18
cylinders, like I don't, youknow, right, I was just going so
fast.
But I knew that I had adeadline, I knew this was an
(20:04):
exception and I think that'swhat we need to bring into our
regular lives.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Is high spurt, like high productivity, like no
boundaries, doing work till likemidnight, like that should be
exceptional like no boundaries,doing work till like midnight,
like that should be exceptional,yeah, and yeah, not the norm
for sure.
I asked you that questionbecause I also have a very
multicultural family and myhusband is from New Zealand and
it's probably one of the mostobvious differences that I've
(20:31):
recognized between their cultureand ours is Kiwis truly know
how to just be without doing,and I know very few people in
America who can just be, and Ijust have wondered, like, where
did we go wrong?
Like is this hitting us inearly childhood?
(20:52):
Is it our education system oris it the cost of living?
Do we just want too much?
Like are we such consumeriststhat we need so much money?
And so then that drive formoney is causing us to kind of
be workaholics and overachievers.
Like, how do you feel aboutmoney and its relationship to
(21:14):
why people are chronically busy?
Speaker 2 (21:18):
You're kind of speaking to a socio-political,
cultural context, right, andthere's no one singular answer
as to like why America is theway it is.
America just has more potential, right, like people don't move
here because they don't wantpotential.
Like as somebody who's animmigrant, my parents moved from
Middle East to Canada.
Like in Canada, as part of likeof this conversation of like
(21:40):
North America, there ispotential to achieve a lot
People are just kind of likestriving to use money as a way
to protect their futures.
You know, in a way that I don'tthink we did before In the US,
if you don't have a job, youdon't have healthcare, you need
to work in order to go to thedoctor.
Like that is always mindblowing to me because it's just
(22:03):
not a good system, right, we'rethe only country with like
medical debt.
So money is a really importantthing, but I think it provides a
lot of security and safety topeople and so it drives you to
do more.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
However, there's like other factors that also play
into it.
Yeah, and I, I well, I thinkthat I see a little bit of
overlap in the.
You know, enough is neverenough when it comes to success,
but I also feel that manypeople feel that enough is never
enough when it comes to moneytoo.
So I just there's a little bitof a parallel there Absolutely,
yeah, as a therapist, I knowyou're, uh, you have WellGuide,
which I believe is a digitalmental health support group or
(22:42):
system, and you're writing,you're speaking.
I mean, you are quote unquotevery successful in what you're
doing.
What kind of boundaries do youset for yourself?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
It requires a lot of emotional regulation.
I genuinely believe thatemotional regulation is the key
to making it an anythingrelationship, friendship,
parenting, whatever, instagramcontent creation.
The goal is not to never feelstuff, because you'll always
feel it.
You're a human person, right?
It's your emotional reaction islike an uncontrolled activity
in your brain.
The power is in regulating itand talking yourself through it.
(23:17):
It's also really important tosurround yourself with people
who are going to keep it realfor you, who you can talk with,
you can share, and they don'tneed to be in the same industry
as you, but they can be realwith you and they can say, hey,
this is not necessary, or you'respiraling, or, I think, asking
for help and reaching out andbeing vulnerable with like two
people or three people.
That's really helpful inhelping set boundaries.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And, aside from this, are there any other tools that
you use for that emotionalregulation that you had
mentioned?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
For some people, like affirmations are really helpful
, but for me, like I just needto talk myself through it.
And the conversation is eitheryou follow your irrational
thought, right, so oh, if youdon't post today, like your
analytics are going to drop,okay, so what.
And then blah, blah, blah willhappen because of that.
Okay, then, so what, right.
And then so you kind of followthis.
So what line of thinking tohelp you realize that the thing
(24:07):
that feels so big for you isactually not that impactful or
consequential.
So you kind of like lay bareyour own irrationality through
talking to yourself, and sothat's a really powerful
cognitive tool that you can use.
And then I also do a lot oflike voice memo journaling.
I can't always sit down andwrite, but I'll use the voice
(24:28):
memo app and just kind of likeget the thoughts out and it's
not going anywhere.
No one needs to hear it again,even I don't, but it's helpful
to just get it out.
It's another form of journalingif you don't like writing.
And then I also have a list ofthings that I enjoy doing when I
feel bad, and it's in my notesapp, because when you feel bad
(24:48):
and when you feel like veryactivated, you can't access the
logical part of your brain justbecause the way the brain is
working in that moment the frontpart of your brain has shut
down and that's a logical center, right.
So a lot of times, like, youcan't even remember like the
most basic things that help youfeel better, you just can't.
And so having it written downin a note on your, on your phone
, is like so helpful.
(25:09):
You can just like pick it upand you know we have decision
fatigue right now on streamingso just the write down for
movies that you really likegoing back to an album that you
like listening to, that makesyou feel better, so that you're
not searching in that moment.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I really liked that one where you were saying, well,
so what?
And then you answer it, okay,oh well, so what After that?
That's a really great exercisethat I'm going to try to
remember.
I know that self-pressure issomething that I personally
struggle with.
I know other people thatstruggle with it.
Self-pressure is something thatI personally struggle with, I
know other people that strugglewith it, and I was also
wondering if you have any ideasfor where that self-pressure
(25:44):
actually comes from, because mylogical brain can say, okay, now
is the time to just relax, stopworrying about that, but then
I'll have this pressure that I'mnot doing enough.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Sometimes the self-pressure can be too great
and it's not well-placed.
Self-pressure is effectivelyyour inner critic, right?
And the inner critic is thisvoice that we have in our head
that is developed over time.
That is usually like a mix ofparent, some teachers, maybe you
had some friends who you hadsome negative experiences as a
child with.
It's usually a voice thatdeveloped very early on in life
(26:21):
that polices you and it becomesso fused with our self-concept
that when we get into adulthoodwe actually forget that this is
not our voice.
So when you're resting andthere's a voice telling you you
are lazy, get up.
There's a pile of laundry onthe floor, like what kind of
person leaves their laundry onthe floor.
We believe this is our voicetelling us this.
(26:45):
It's not.
It is our inner critic, whichis a separate voice.
So when we want to kind ofcombat self pressure we have to
first identify the inner critic.
You know, I think it requiressome introspection, but not time
consuming introspection.
You can really just pause andask yourself who sounds like
this in my life.
(27:05):
Every time you have a negativethought that's critical of
policing or shaming, literally,all you have to do is just be
like who does this sound likeand you'll be like oh my gosh,
it sounds like my mom, right.
Or it sounds like that whateverPE teacher who told me that I
couldn't run or whatever right,and so like that itself in the
small habit, will create thisdistance.
So what we're looking for is tocreate distance from the
(27:26):
thought so that we canexternalize it and that we can
manage and process, because whenit's fused with our sense of
self, what you feel is shame,not guilt.
Shame is a really powerfulemotion and shame can make you
do destructive things withouteven you realizing it.
When you actually push it out,it first becomes guilt.
Guilt is a much better place tobe in, because guilt is I'm
(27:49):
doing something bad.
It's so action oriented.
You'd move to change how youfeel right, but guilt is easier
to release than shame.
Shame is very core.
So the first thing you want todo is you want to like, hey,
like who does this sound likeRight?
And then just kind of startgoing from there.
Then you can do the.
So what conversation?
Then you can fact checkyourself Right, whatever this
thought is, you can say is thistrue?
(28:10):
Is there evidence for it Right?
What's the evidence for andagainst Like?
You can do this like a lot ofcognitive work and at the same
time, I think it's reallyhelpful to learn how to relax
your body when you're feelinguncomfortable.
That was my problem, because mydefense mechanism is
intellectualizing.
I can just like I cancognitively, do all the things
right.
I can do the distance, I can dothe fact checking, but I was
(28:31):
not very in touch with my body.
So my body would be wound up.
I would be stressed Like myshoulders would be wound up.
I would be stressed Like myshoulders would be up to my ear,
like I'd be restless, I wouldfeel uncomfortable, like I just
was so disconnected from my body.
It's kind of like thinking back.
I'm just like wow.
So it's also helpful to likereally get into your body and
the easiest, smallest way is todeep breathe.
(28:51):
Four deep breaths, take it infor four, hold for two, let it
out for six, take it in for four, hold for two, let it out for
six.
Just super simple.
Then you can go into the morecomplicated, involved somatic
practices, but just the mostbasic thing is just take a
couple of deep breaths and likerelax your body.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
So important.
I think a lot of us shallowbreathe without even realizing
it, throughout the entire day.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
It's called like digital asphyxia.
I don't know if you've heardthe phrase, but you might notice
that you're actually holdingyour breath while you're
scrolling, like once I noticedit I couldn't not notice it,
cause your body's so stressedbecause of the scrolling Cause
it's so overwhelming for thebrain that actually you can hold
your breath for some time andnot realize it.
(29:32):
That makes you feel really bad.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, wow, that's making me also want to check in
on my kids and make sure thatthey aren't holding their breath
throughout the day.
Yeah, we need to breathe.
Like our cells, they needoxygen.
Well, so, just as a finalquestion here, if you could go
back and sit down and have aconversation with yourself when
you were in your early twenties,how do you imagine that
conversation would go?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I think that a I would tell her that I admire a
lot of things about her.
I would tell her that herfearlessness, her like ability
to like leap and just do thethings without fear took her to
amazing places.
So I would definitely tell herto keep that.
I think it's important toappreciate the things that have
helped you come this far.
(30:18):
Her to keep that.
I think it's important toappreciate the things that have
helped you come this far.
So I would say that.
And the second thing I wouldsay to her is to maybe not be so
concerned with achieving fast.
Really just think, take sometime Like it's okay, like it's
not a failure just because itdidn't happen as fast as you
wanted, like I think I was veryconsumed with speed, you know,
(30:40):
and if it wasn't happening fastenough, it wasn't good enough.
I think I would tell thatperson to slow down a little and
appreciate things a little bitmore.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
That's very sweet.
Yeah Well, Isra, thank you somuch for coming on and it's been
a great conversation.
Thanks for coming.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
I loved your last question, bythe way.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Today's key takeaways .
Understand where motivationcomes from.
Unresolved emotions often pushus toward chasing external
validation.
As humans, we need bothinternal and external motivation
, but today's culture puts heavypressure on achieving success
in outward, performative ways.
(31:24):
The antidote is to reconnectwith yourself and to ask
yourself what nourishes me, notjust what looks good to others.
Other ways to reconnect withyourself are engaging in a
creative hobby purely for thejoy of creating, not for any
performance or productivity.
Invest in real life, communityfriendships, family and groups
(31:49):
where you feel grounded andconnected in real life.
Practice self-acceptance bygiving yourself good enough
points in areas where perfectionjust isn't necessary.
Rest and joy aren't rewards youearn only after finishing your
to-do list.
They're really essential dailypractices.
(32:10):
Even a 90-second tothree-minute break can reset
your mind and body.
Remember the seven types ofrest that you may need.
There's physical, mental,emotional, social, sensory,
creative and spiritual.
Goals anchor us, but instead offocusing only on the big picture
(32:31):
goal, ask what can Irealistically achieve in the
next 30 days?
These shorter horizons keepmotivation fresh and it reduces
overwhelm.
Big spurts of productivity arenormal, but they should be the
exception and not the standard.
There will be times when youreally need to work overtime,
(32:54):
but you shouldn't be doing thatall the time.
Build rhythms of sustainableoutput rather than living in
constant overdrive.
Try the so what technique whensomething feels overwhelming.
This will help you see whetherit's truly as big as it seems.
Keep a note in your phonelisting activities that lift
(33:14):
your mood.
When you're down, you caneasily access this list and use
logic to guide you back tothings you know help.
When we're emotionallydysregulated, it can be very
hard, if not impossible, tothink logically.
When you hear a harsh, criticalinner voice, ask whose voice
does this sound like?
(33:35):
Naming it helps separate itfrom your true self.
And then practice compassionand speak to yourself like you
would a good friend.
And finally, achievement is nota race.
So slow down, take deep breathsthroughout the day and remember
life isn't just about reachingthe finish line, it's about the
(33:57):
entire journey.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
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