Jennifer Tsay is the co-founder and CEO of Shoott - with two Ts, a fast-growing company making professional photography more accessible for clients and a reliable supplemental income for photographers.
In just seven years, Shoott has grown from $800K to over $9 million in revenue, achieving operational profitability and expanding services to over sixty cities across the US.
"Jen" shares her journey in a very candidly and authentically, and we talk about leadership, giving and receiving feedback, and why experience (even unpaid) is one of the most undervalued assets in today’s time-value culture.
She was named a Forbes #Next1000 honoree, Brit + Co’s 30 AAPI Founders We Love to Support, and on the side, she works as an actor and speaker.
Shoott has been featured on Forbes, Oprah Daily, The Today Show, People, and much more.
Subscribe on Apple Podcast , Spotify or YouTube.
Let’s connect!
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Website: https://www.annemcginty.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm your host, anne McGinty.
In today's episode, we'rechatting with Jen Tai, the
co-founder and CEO of Shoot withTwo Ts, a fast-growing company
making professional photographymore accessible for clients and
a reliable supplemental incomefor photographers.
(00:30):
In just seven years, shoot hasgrown from $800,000 to over $9
million in revenue, achievingoperational profitability and
expanding services to over 60cities across the US.
Jen shares her journey in avery candid and authentic way.
(00:51):
We talk about leadership,giving and receiving feedback
and why experience, even unpaid,is one of the most undervalued
assets in today's time valueculture most undervalued assets
in today's time value culture.
Jen was named a Forbes Next1000 honoree, brit Co's 30 AAPI
(01:11):
founders we love to support andon the side, she works as an
actor and speaker.
Shoot has been featured onForbes, oprah Daily, the Today
Show, people and much more.
You'll find a link to shoot inthe episode's description.
(01:36):
If you've been tuning in, youknow this show isn't about
selling anything.
It's about sharing meaningfulstories and learning along the
way.
If how I built my smallbusiness has brought you any
insight, inspiration or evenjust a spark of curiosity, there
are a few simple ways you cansupport the journey, follow the
show, share your favoriteepisode with a friend or leave a
quick review.
(01:57):
Each one truly helps me growthis show.
Thank you, let's get started,jen.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
I'm really excited to hear yourstory.
Thanks for having me.
I'm so happy to be here.
So where are you from?
Can you give us a little bit ofa background on you?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I grew up in Allentown, Pennsylvania so I,
you know I was there for like agood 13 years of my childhood,
went to school in Philadelphiaand I've lived in the New York
area ever since I graduated,which has now been a little
North of 20 years.
You know, I did a lot of yearsin the corporate world doing
investment banking, corporatefinance.
I tried doing a little bit ofnonprofit work and then I
(02:42):
transitioned into doing somecreative work.
So I produced a documentary, Itook acting and like writing
classes.
I was an actor and I still amsometimes for upwards of, you
know, over a decade.
So that's kind of how I gotinto the creative world.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
How did that bridge over to starting Shoot Really?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Shoot came about because I wanted to figure out a
business model that solved thegig economy for a certain subset
of artists so that they couldstay artists, because it's so
hard to find enough work andcobble together enough work in
the gig economy, and being anactor kind of taught me that.
So we figured out we could doit for photographers.
(03:22):
But all of this is to say I'mactually not a photographer, I
came at it from an actor's pointof view, right.
But I had a lot of friends whowere artists of all different
sorts and we were like well, wecan't do a business model that
kind of aggregates demand foracting.
It doesn't quite make sense.
So then we were left to thinkabout what industry could have
that and we realized that wecould do it for photography,
(03:49):
meaning the average photographerhas to kind of find a gig here,
a gig there.
They have to cobble togetherenough gigs to create a living.
But we were like can we createa business model that aggregates
demand all at one location sothat the clients come and meet
you somewhere, right?
So much the same way that likewhen you're in a I guess when
you're an actor and you're in ashow all of the people come to
your show and see you.
We were like is there a way todo that for photography, where
(04:10):
we can amplify the demand forthem?
So we realized, if we stationedthem at set places for a
certain timeframe, that we couldhave back-to-back sessions for
them.
So that's really where thatcame from.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
That's interesting.
How did you test the model?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, so we did an MVP, or like a minimum viable
product, of what we thought ourbusiness model could look like
in New York with our friends andour just general business
network.
There were a couple of usworking on it and we were like,
oh just, you know, if weadvertise these free sessions
where you only pay for thephotos you want, is there enough
demand?
And we realized there was.
(04:47):
So that was really exciting.
You know, we just launched areally rudimentary version of
our website.
We had like a plug and playbooking service and people
booked the sessions and so fromthere we really developed
proprietary systems for it.
But yeah, we trialed it withour own community.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And as far as cash flow goes, how did you know that
the model that you had createdwas going to be sustainable?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
That's such a good question.
So we didn't.
We had a feeling.
We were like I think there'senough of a market because it's
a volume game.
Right, a lot of things are avolume game to cover all of your
costs.
So in the beginning years, youknow, we were like how do we
structure this that we getenough value from each of our
clients and then we have alsoenough clients?
So for the longest time you'rekind of balancing what your
(05:32):
pricing should be, what youradvertising costs should be to
warrant that, and so it took usfive years to become profitable.
Now we're like definitely aprofitable entity.
That's amazing.
Like we hit break even in 2023.
And then in 2024, we actually20X to that profitability, which
is, you know, it sounds crazy,but it was just North of like
40,000 the first year.
(05:54):
So it is impressive.
But at the same time, like youknow, we're going off of a
pretty low number.
But yeah, and then we were likeoh, this, this does have legs.
So like we have to reallyfigure out how to maintain that,
no matter what's happening inthe economy or whatever.
But it was, it was a lot ofvery disciplined working and
betting that it did work in thefirst few years.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Can you describe a little bit more about how this
business model supports thephotographers, how it works for
the clients and then how you'reable to make money as a company?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, that's a great question because our entire
reason for being was to see ifthis business model we could
create was like a win-win-winfor us, the photographer and the
client.
So really we have this ideathat a photographer stationed
somewhere you know someone whogoes to Central Park from like
12 to five has half an hoursessions that they book out
(06:43):
we're looking to see can weattract enough people?
It's really dependent on us tohave the right marketing to
attract the right types ofpeople who want not just one
photo but multiple.
So our main demographic arewhat I call, like millennial and
Gen Z moms.
So that's really where peoplewant the photos.
You want photos and memories ofyour family.
So that's really, you know, thethe impetus for who we're
(07:05):
targeting.
And then on the photographerside, we know that the whole
offer of like a free photo shootis really scary for them.
So we do whatever we can toprotect their time.
We have always offered a 100minimum guarantee per shooting
hour.
So if they're working, they'remaking money, no matter what
clients pay, and then we offerthe greater of that amount or
(07:27):
what they make.
On commissions, we have acommission structure as well.
So the more photos they sell,the more they benefit and on
average, even though we havethat a hundred dollar minimum
guarantee they're making in 2024, they made between 166 and 199
per photography hour, which ispretty great.
So we're always aiming toprotect their time.
We also give them extrapayments if clients are late, if
(07:48):
they don't show up, if theypick up extra sessions.
There's all these other wayswhere we try to really
incentivize them to work for usand make it worth their time and
the way that we work.
So we take a cut of it, but thecut is really to support that
we do all of the marketing,which is insane because it's
like never ending changes in thedigital marketing landscape
that we have to optimize for.
(08:09):
So we do all of that businessstrategy.
You know, gallery, delivery,customer service.
They never have to like dealwith the clients themselves,
basically all of the businessactivity we take care of.
So they just have the freedomto come in their supplemental
time and just do what they lovedoing, which is photography.
So really it's meant to be aconvenient source of
(08:29):
supplemental income forpreexisting photographers.
And then, you know, the clientsbenefit, because photographers
want to make as much money aspossible, so they're
incentivized to give them thebest experience and the best
photos.
And then there's that free offer, so it's a risk free upfront
for them.
So a lot of people who normallywhen you you know you go for a
photo shoot, it can cost upwardsof like 400, 500, 600, if not
(08:49):
more, and it's like multi hoursand it's like, no, you have a
half hour, you know people arenot going to burn out in the
middle of that Like it's theperfect amount of time for
everybody and it's an accessibleprice point where people can
book photo shoots to commemorateall of their life moments, no
matter how big or small.
And that's what we're trying toincentivize is greater demand.
And we started asking ourclients and I think about 25% of
(09:12):
our clients have said thatthey've never booked a
professional photographer beforeworking with us, and we
consider that a major winbecause it's not like we're
taking demand from otherphotographers, we're actually
creating demand in themarketplace, which we consider a
major win.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It is a pretty brilliant business model.
I'm not going to lie.
When I first was reading it Ithought my gosh, how does that
even work?
How many sessions did you needto have before you reached a
breakeven point?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Great question.
So I feel like on a yearlybasis we need to have at least
like around like 43,000 sessions.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Wow.
It's something like that, andthen you have an office space, I
assume, where everybody isworking.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
We do not.
You don't, no, no, no, we'refully remote.
So, like the other part of usfiguring out whether we're
profitable was like whatexpenses can we cut and how can
we automate certain things so wecan still keep our team really
lean, so we can start beingprofitable?
Okay, so where are the greatestexpenses then?
The greatest expenses aredefinitely just the cost of
paying the photographers.
(10:15):
Definitely, obviously, that'sgoing to be a huge portion of it
.
And then it's marketing.
Marketing is a huge part of itbecause we have to really
balance getting enough clientsfor them and optimizing what is
the cost to get them, get themclients.
Are we making also enough perclient to make it worthwhile at
the scale that we're having?
And our year's a little wackybecause people want photos but
(10:36):
they really really want them infourth quarter.
The rest of the year maybe ifthey have like maturity.
So you know, we're trying toincentivize people to come for
the rest of the year but likecome, like September, we don't
have enough photographers tomeet demand.
It's so insane because everyonewants it for holiday cards and
for family reunions, all of thatstuff.
Because of that timing, weactually don't know how we do
(10:57):
financially until like Januaryof the following year.
So it's up to us to optimizefor the year, hope that we stick
the landing, so to speak, andthat it works out in our favor.
But we don't know, and sothere's always this like it's
always terrifying for us upuntil we know how the numbers
land.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
It's an atypical seasonal business.
Yeah, and so if somebody, let'ssay they go for their 30 minute
session and there's 10 or 15photos that they want, what are
they spending At?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
10 photos, you can get your entire gallery for 180.
So it's like $18 a photo.
However, it's actually lessthan that because we include
like $20 of retouching credit.
So if you have like an extratrash can in there or whatever
that you want to take out, or,you know, fly away hairs or
whatever that you want to adjustfor, there's credit to go
towards a retouching of some ofyour photos, if you'd like, and
(11:47):
then you can get your fullgallery for $298.
And that also includes evenmore retouching credit.
And then we have bundledpackages with Paper Culture,
which they provide eco-friendlyprint products.
So there's a photo book orphoto cards, things like that,
to create like invites or cardsfrom.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
How much has to be done on the backend as you grow
in size, Like your team?
How many people are on?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
your team.
We have like 12 peoplefull-time and then we have like
six others that are like thatare part-time for customer
service.
But our team, team, that reallyruns everything.
We have 12 people.
Five of those people are tech,so the remaining six seven
people are really doingoperations or hybrid operations
plus customer service.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
And then the marketing.
So is the marketing outsourcedor in-house?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
It's a little bit of a hybrid.
So we run some of it in-houseand then we have an agency that
runs our Google and Facebookthat we watch like a hawk,
because marketing is soexpensive for us and such a huge
component to how we work.
We look at it on a daily basis.
We have a proprietary trackerso we see how each platform is
doing and then we make decisions, you know, on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Smart, yeah.
And how effective are thevarious marketing strategies?
What works for you and whatdoesn't?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, so there's the evergreen stuff.
So Facebook is definitely anevergreen, it's our greatest
driver of people.
And then Google is also a hugedriver and the two work really
well in tandem.
It's nice because they play offof each other a little bit.
Sometimes people discover youon Facebook or Instagram and
then they Google you, so it'sthose two go really well
(13:22):
together.
And then we also use connectedTV, and that's been an
interesting one, because when wefirst started using that, it
didn't work for us.
It was really expensive, andthen now we've actually gotten
it to work, which is fantastic.
So we have one platform that weuse and we're still looking to
see if there's other ones thatare out there.
And like not all advertisingplatforms are the same.
(13:44):
Some of them don't have thebest tracking and attribution,
so you can't even tell what yourROI is.
So it's a little bit of likeexperimentation, of like, hey,
how do I run ads on on Hulu orDisney plus or like whatever,
and then what does the interfacelook like?
Can I tell what's happeningwith my money?
If I can't, we pull our money.
So we're really good at doingvery lean tests.
Usually.
(14:04):
We've tried other things likepodcast advertising, which is a
little bit hit or miss.
You know radio hit or miss.
Uh, there's things like digitalbillboard, which we haven't
quite gotten ever to work, andthen there's also guerrilla
marketing.
So you know, figuring out like,hey, how do I advertise to
local communities?
That's also different.
So we try everything.
(14:24):
We do really lean tests of likeif it doesn't work, in 10 days
we pull it, and then we alwayswill come back and try again,
because sometimes people changetheir technology and it gets
better.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Wow, this sounds like a lot of whack-a-mole.
It is so.
With Shoot, you wanted totackle an industry and you
wanted to solve a problem.
Where did this entrepreneurialspirit come from for you?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
I think it's because I worked in corporate America
and I didn't really enjoy thatexperience even though I did
enjoy the stability and thebenefits and all of that stuff
and I was like you know, I don'tfeel happy here, Like I'll go
to work, but I'm so bored.
Once I learn my job I'm superbored and not stimulated, and
then I get very existential, andso I've always had that.
I think there are certain timeswhere having a stable job
really matters, right, I thinkif you have young children
(15:14):
actually I'll say this if youhave any really major financial
thing that you're trying toachieve, the stable job is great
.
Or if you have any healthissues.
I think about, like, all thereasons why.
Yeah, there's actually a lot ofreasons why, but there were
points in time where I was likeno, I can gamble a little more,
Like I think I want somethingslightly different, and that's
why I did transition into doinga lot of arts stuff where I was
(15:35):
producing a documentary, Iwasn't getting paid for it, I'd
rather accumulate skills and ifI can gamble on that a little
bit, I'm going to do that.
I'm willing to forego the pay alittle bit just to learn
something and experiencesomething new Cause.
Maybe I'll learn somethingabout myself.
And I think in the process ofdoing that, I discovered that I
did like startup environmentsbecause everything was totally
new and it was things that Ididn't know Like.
(15:58):
I liked having differentchallenges every day, and so I
realized when I, when I was inthat environment, I was like I
kind of missed that.
So it made me go back to beinglike is there another startup
that I can be part of or likework on?
And so I kind of stumbled uponrealizing that I had more of an
entrepreneurial spirit than Irealized.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
And now that you've been an entrepreneur for seven
or so years, what do you missabout the corporate life or
world, or do you not?
Would you ever consider goingback to it?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I mean I would say I do.
I do miss the benefit.
The benefits are better, youknow, like the health benefits
are much better.
You know, sometimes you do misshaving an office to go to and
having all of like the perks oflike free coffee and all of that
fun stuff.
You can still have that, Ithink, in an entrepreneurial
existence, but we don't havethat.
So I think there's aspects ofcommunity and there's certain
(16:53):
just perks that are really niceto have when you have a
corporate entity.
But other than that I don'tmiss the work at all.
I felt like I worked on a lotof things that were just nice to
have but not very muchnecessary.
Or I would work forever onsomething and it just like
nothing happened with it.
So I'm like my work doesn'teven matter, whereas literally
every decision we make asentrepreneurs makes a huge
difference somewhere.
(17:14):
So all of a sudden everythingmatters and it's it's kind of
nice to work knowing that.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And those fringe benefits can come as your
profitability increases.
Yes, exactly, those fringebenefits can come as your
profitability increases.
Yes, exactly.
Have you taken anything?
I imagine that you have, so Ishould rephrase that in saying
what have you taken from yourpast professional experience
whether it's the acting or it'sthe investment banking into your
business world?
(17:40):
What came with you that's beenthe most helpful?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Oh my gosh, okay.
So like, very practicallyspeaking, the most helpful thing
was for my investment bankingdays, like learning how to be
very spreadsheet literate andcreate financial projections.
When you're an entrepreneur,like in, money obviously matters
because it determines whetheror not you have a business or
not.
It's helpful to have thoseskills.
It's helpful to know how toproject things Like I can
weirdly do that in my sleep.
It's like a weird thing.
(18:05):
It's like knowing a language.
I'm like, oh gosh, I, everytime I look at a spreadsheet I'm
like I don't know if I can doit.
And then I'm like, well, I cando it.
Like it's so strange.
So I appreciate that Right Cause, if I had to learn and then how
to write business writing, likegetting all of those skills out
(18:27):
of the way Really really great.
I would always recommend thatpeople have that.
And then from my acting days, Ithink what I really pulled from
that is how to give peoplenotes.
So everything's hypersensitivein the acting world and you have
to know how to give peoplenotes, because people hear
differently and I see that inplay so much as a people manager
.
Now, how to give notes, how tospeak to people if they respond
(18:50):
poorly how to kind of tacticallydeal with all of that.
What do you?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
mean by give notes, give feedback, oh, feedback.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Sorry, yeah, it's called giving notes and acting,
but when you give feedback topeople on your team, it's also
still touchy right.
It's the same thing, likepeople get defensive and how do
you talk through people's BS andhow do you, you know, how do
you kind of get people to dowhat you need them to do and
have them grow and haverealizations and all of that
stuff.
There is a sensitivity to thatand there is kind of a strategy
(19:19):
you can have when you reallyunderstand the people on your
team, which is important to have.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
So you know seeing the people as the people they
are.
Okay, so give us some tips.
Then teach us what you knowabout giving notes.
What's the best way to do thatfor the outcome that you are
hoping for?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
How would I articulate this?
Let me see.
So I would say people aremotivated by like they.
They are both motivated andunderstand things very
specifically.
So, for example, I had a teammember that you could tell them
prescriptive things, but theycouldn't understand it until you
gave them, like the overallrubric of like hey, we're
(19:57):
telling you this because like.
So, if you were like hey, justdo a, a, b, c and D, like, they
were like okay.
And so then we were like hey,we're asking you to do this for
these particular reasons.
This is why it's good forstrategy whatever.
Then they can contextualize whatthey're being told and be able
to do it.
So that's one type of person,another type of person.
We would then try to talk tothem from a contextual point of
(20:20):
view.
Hey, it's really important thatyou do this because you know we
need better oversight, we needto be able to share work streams
.
We could say all that stuff,but it wasn't until we like
dictated A, b, c and D that theycould even do anything.
So, knowing the differencebetween people and then,
similarly like we have someneurodiverse people on our team
knowing that and being like okay, I know how you hear and I know
(20:42):
what things suit you best, likethis is how we're going to try
to you know, come to thistogether and making it seem like
teamwork.
So I think, understanding thateveryone is different from each
other and from you, and figuringout how to problem solve that
together, making them feel likethey're part of that process and
making sure they feel safe inthat and not just criticized.
(21:02):
A lot of people just come froma background where they don't
know how to take criticism.
I think there's a lot ofexamples where criticism is only
meant as a destructive forceversus a constructive right.
So knowing that there's alreadythat kind of sensitivity there,
like being able to plan andbudget around, that is really
important.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
That is such a good skill to have, just in life, but
then also in leadership andmanagement, and one that I wish
was taught to everybody.
It's really hard.
It's like a very compassionateway.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, it's an EQ thing and not everyone has the
same definition of EQ or feelits importance Right.
And then, and then it's alsoabout judgment, because like you
could read things one way, butsomebody reads it a different
and then like, how do you bridgethat in a way that that again
feels like you're on the sameteam versus like against each
other, navigating all that kindof stuff?
That's the soft skills thatwill really build or destroy
(21:56):
your team for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, and to keep moving forward without the
judgment.
Yes, so that everybody cancommunicate in a stronger
fashion.
Yes, yes, so that everybody cancommunicate in a stronger
fashion.
Yes, so, with the building ofyour team.
So, first of all, how manypartners did you have going into
this business?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
I mean it's it's changed a little bit, but like
we originally started witharound three people and like
some people jumped on, somepeople jumped off and then we I
think we were always around likethree people in the very
beginning stages and then weslowly started adding from there
.
So we added somebody to docustomer service.
That was like the first kind oflike team member beyond the
(22:32):
original team members on it, andthen we started adding more and
more people.
So you know, then we have morecustomer service people.
We have a tech team which wedidn't really have until year,
like three.
And then we added somebody whodoes recruiting for a
photographer or somebody whomanages our locations or our
partnership.
So like we kind of added as wewent and oftentimes we took
people who had much moreseasonal jobs.
(22:52):
So because we're fourth quarterheavy, we would need a lot of
customer service people infourth quarter, but then we'd
have to let go of them or likefurlough them from January
through August, which is a longamount of time.
So we're like, can we use thesededicated people in different
ways?
So then we gave them hybridroles.
So we actually have quite anumber of people with hybrid
roles so we can make themfull-time.
So our full-time stays constantthrough the year, so that
(23:14):
there's about 12 people and thenwe have anywhere from like an
extra one to six people handlingcustomer service, six being,
like the most additional, youknow, the highest amount
additional for fourth quarter.
But that's kind of that flex isreally in that customer service
portion.
One of my co-founders is myprimary advisor and he's a
(23:35):
serial entrepreneur.
So in the beginning it was alot of his guidance to be like I
think you should focus on this.
I think you should focus onthat.
The more years that we were inbusiness we kind of figured that
out for ourselves.
We're like, hey, we need this,we need that.
So we're like, how big is theneed?
Like you have to prioritizekind of the needs that you have.
And then you're also looking atthe people that you have and
seeing if there's a direct match.
So, for example, if, like, Icould get somebody, I was like,
(23:56):
oh God, we really need someonefor partnerships.
And we're like, hey, thisresource of ours is really good
with clients, so maybe they'd bereally good with partners
because it's kind of the sameskillset.
So then we kind of float thatand trial that.
And I do think, especially whenyou're doing something like
adding skills to somebody, youcan misjudge that somebody has a
certain skillset or that theywould like the additional work.
(24:19):
Some people might not rightit's not exactly the best fit.
So I would always at least tryit a little bit, see if they
like it, see if they're good atit, and then, if they are, then
you know, make that official.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
With everybody being remote, what's your structure
around keeping your team on thesame page?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, so we have like an all team operations meeting
on Mondays and then, separately,the tech team has their own
meeting on Monday, and like wekind of compare notes and look
at things and then everyone kindof goes off on their own and
then, you know, there's kind ofthis uh, our customer service
lead then tells the rest of theteam that he has their his own
meeting with them.
So we also provide like emailupdates where, like, hey, these
are the development, this iswhat we're focusing on, these
(24:59):
are the things that we'veachieved, these are the things
that we're looking at.
I'll admit, though, like Ididn't realize until maybe like
this year or last year, I'm like, oh, it would be so much more
beneficial if we had even justlike one or two days in an
office, where the osmosis wouldbe much more natural.
Because now we have to be sopurposeful about being like who
knows what, because sometimeswe'll make a decision and forget
to tell people, like it's boundto happen, and also people
(25:22):
might not really like that andfeel left out.
So like it's really importantfor us to be really
conscientious about that.
We basically do go throughmeetings, email updates and then
if anyone ever has anyquestions or anything where it
was like hey, you can alwaysbook a time with us Like you see
the full availability of ourcalendar, just like we're
usually online anyway, so youcan happen to join one of our
calls to ask us any questions.
So we make ourselves superaccessible in that way, so the
(25:42):
rest of our team doesn't everfeel like they can't find the
answer they want.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And your normal workload like a regular week for
you.
What does it look like?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
There's no real like regular work for me.
We just do what is the mostimportant thing of the day and
we kind of go through that way,and so there's definitely no set
thing.
Like I think that the markersthat are the same are the
meetings where we talk strategyand we figure out, like what
we're going to do and if there'sany changes we need to make to
our understanding of how thebusiness is running.
And then we may have to dealwith legal one week accounting,
(26:13):
one week taxes, like it, justupdates, and we just have to do
whatever's the most importantand time sensitive.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
That's kind of what makes being an entrepreneur fun,
though, isn't it that it's justalways changing.
Yeah, isn't it that it's?
Speaker 2 (26:22):
just always changing.
Yeah, so you can't.
You don't get bored.
I'll say, like there's never aday where we're like I'm so
bored, but you know, there areweeks where you're like I hate
taxes, but you're like, but thenice thing about hating taxes is
that the season is over.
Like you know what I'm saying.
There's like a kind of a finiteamount of time that you suffer
through each one of those things, and before you started this
seven years ago.
So what have you?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
learned the most about doing business or running
a company or managing a teamthat you didn't know prior?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I would never want to kind of tip off my past self,
because I think learning, all ofthose things happens for a
reason and you only learn bymaking mistakes, and so I don't
ever regret my mistakes.
But I will say I took a badpiece of advice early on when
somebody had told me that like,oh, your accountant doesn't
really matter, and I was like,oh, okay, I don't have to
prioritize that so much.
Right Of all the things I'mlike in the beginning especially
, I'm like taking everyone's,everyone who's done it before.
(27:18):
I'm like taking their advicemuch more literally.
And then I realized that thatwas really not good advice to
take and it was a very costlymistake, and so that one I
regret.
But I think it's only throughtrial and error and working on
things yourself that you realizewho you can trust.
It can be like you overalltrust a person but they can be
biased about this or that, andthen you you know, you just
(27:38):
learn that over time and peoplelove to give advice, even if
it's not necessarily wanted.
Yeah, and people give biasedadvice and you can't be like,
well, they know so much betterthan me, so I'm going to listen
to them at a hundred Like Ithink you have to learn to
listen to people at like 75 andthen take what's useful to you
and throw out what's not anddon't take anything personally.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
And take everything with a grain of salt, because
their experience is probablyvery different to yours.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, and you know a lot of what you're going through
is normal, because it's goingto be normal the first time you
do something that everything'ssuper confusing and just try to
find mentors and other peopleand other sources of information
to validate your experience,cause you'll find it, if you
really look for it, you'll findit.
And finding a community whereyou can bounce ideas off of
(28:25):
other people.
Like you know, when we werehaving a hard time hiring quote
the right people, I'm like whyis this so hard?
I don't, is it just us?
And people are like, oh my God,we complain about this all the
time.
And so when you know thatyou're in the same boat, you're
like, oh okay, so I don't haveto on top of experience how hard
this is, feel shame about it.
You know that makes it easier.
So it's things like that.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I agree.
A lot of what you learn, youkind of just have to learn by
doing.
You know people listen to thispodcast and they can get a lot
of information from others whohave done what they want to do
before they're starting.
Ultimately, listening is a verydifferent thing to doing
Absolutely, absolutely.
(29:10):
So how is, how are youcurrently using AI in your
business and do you have anyconcerns over the impact of AI
on photography?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
So the way that we're using AI right now is we use it
a lot for content creation andjust like pulling up a first
draft of anything.
So if we have like a blog postwhere like, hey, these are kind
of the ideas that I have, itjust helps you coagulate all of
your ideas much faster and Ilove that.
So, across the board, like wedo use it for a lot of writing,
just as like again a first draft, we'll always put our own spin
(29:37):
on it afterwards, but like thefirst ideas and first research,
really great to have AI do thatfor us.
No, I think our tech team alsouses AI to help code some stuff
and have shortcuts that way, too.
In terms of how I feel like AIis going to affect the
photography industry, there's alot of editing tools and other
(29:58):
tools that help just some of theworkflows for photography that
we want to introduce ourphotographers to, just so it
saves time when they're doingthe post-production stuff.
So when they're actuallyphotographing, like they have
them and their camera and that'sone experience, but then all of
their stuff afterwards whetherit's culling, editing, whatever
there's a lot of AI that existsthat helps them edit photos in
their style much faster, sothey're not burning so much time
in things that are very adminoriented, those kinds of things
(30:22):
we want to share with them forsure.
And then, in general, I justdon't think that you can
substitute real photography withAI photos.
Now, that's not to say there'ssome really great AI photos out
there.
So, like I 10 selfies and itcomes up with a pretty photo,
realistic headshot that's fine,but I feel like you would never
(30:52):
want an AI generated photo ofyour family for Christmas where
you're not in a real place.
Like you want your actualfamily.
Does that make like you want anactual memory?
And so I feel like, to that end, I'm not concerned for what we
do, since we do portraitphotography.
It's about your relationships,it's about milestones.
Do I think like AI could comein and take the same family and
(31:15):
put them like in a photo with,like the Taj Mahal?
Yeah, that's fine.
Like I don't care.
If you want that, that's fine,but you still need, at base, the
real photos of real people.
That's, I think, what peoplewant at base the real photos of
real people.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
That's, I think, what people want.
Yeah, I think that people willwant that for a long time.
From how I've seen it, and fromphotographers and videographers
that I've spoken to, it seemslike the custom style work,
where you're interfacing withanother human, is just not
really going away.
Where do you see shoot going,say, a year from now, two years
from now, five years, like whatwould you like to see for the
(31:47):
trajectory of your company?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, so like ideally , I would love when people say,
like we should get photos takenof our family, that the first
brand that comes to mind isshoot with duties.
I want to be like the brandname that people think of when
they think I want a trustedplatform that gives me high
quality, affordable photos thathelps benefit local
photographers.
Like I want all that entirenarrative to be in the concept
(32:12):
of when they think about shoot.
And so you know, we want todefinitely grow our brand in the
US.
So many people still don't evenknow that we even exist and so
there's so many families outthere, and then we want to just
have more market share in thatway.
And then, I think you know,looking longer term out, we want
to figure out how to beinternational.
So expanding first to Englishspeaking countries so it's
(32:33):
easier for our customer serviceteam, like Canada, australia,
new Zealand, england, all thatfun stuff.
Like I think we would love tobe able to expand our footprint
that way, cause I think ourtechnology and our platform can
support that, and also creatingmore robust solutions for the
photographers and also likebetter bundles for our clients
so they get photos and they canget whatever photo products they
(32:56):
want with it.
I think we just want the entireuniverse to be a little tighter
and better.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
What about the talent that you bring in?
How do you decide who gets tobe on the platform and who
doesn't?
How do you decide?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
who gets to be on the platform and who doesn't.
So we have a really rigorousscreening process.
So people apply on our websiteand we look at their portfolio
first and we also look at theirequipment.
We need to make sure that theirequipment is of a certain
quality and level where it'sgoing to create high enough
megapixels so that if peoplewant to blow up their photos and
really enlarge them, that itdoesn't lose quality.
So that's kind of the firstorder of business.
(33:31):
We look at their portfolio tosee hey, from the photos that
they're generating and showingme, do they look like they can
photograph in the style that wecurrently have our photos
looking like on our website andour Instagram, because that's
why people book us.
And then, if they pass that,then we invite them for a video
interview.
We interview them to make surethat they have the technical
skills, the personality as well,because having your photos
(33:53):
taken is inherently a veryvulnerable process and a lot of
people are not models.
They don't know how to pose.
So having someone really beable to dictate that and make
people feel comfortable and makepeople feel seen and confident,
we want to see that that personunderstands that that's part of
being a photographer right, sothat's also a part of it.
If they pass that stage, then wego on to having a test shoot,
where we have them do a trialtest shoot over 10 minutes to
(34:15):
see if they can photograph inour style.
Like, what kind of variety canyou do in a 10 minute session?
Because our sessions are 30minutes.
So it's kind of like a slice ofthat.
Once we decide that they shouldjoin our team, we then do a
background check and then weonboard them and then they you
know, when they take a test,they understand our policies,
they join our team.
So it's a lot of differentsteps to make sure we have the
right people on the team.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And how many photographers do you have on
your team now?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, we have like a little North of 750 right now.
Oh my gosh Across the U S yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Have you had anybody discontinue, because their
photography brand is growingindependently and so they they
tend to focus on that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
We've had cases where people have stayed for the
seven years that we've been inexistence and we've had people
who feel like they graduate andwe fully welcome everyone at
every stage, like we don't takeit personally.
We are here to support you.
So if that means that you'relike, hey, my wedding
photography business is takingoff and I don't want to be in
your platform anymore, we'relike we're sad, but go ahead,
fully support you.
(35:13):
If you ever want to come back,we're always here for you.
And then we've had other peopleleave for other things, like we
.
One of my favoritephotographers was a great
photographer but really wantedto grow his tattoo business, so
he used this to make enoughmoney to start his tattoo
business and now he tattoos mostof his time and I love that for
him.
We just want to be a reallyreliable source of supplemental
income for people who aretalented photographers.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
This is such a unique business model that serves a
very niche need, whether you'reusing it as a stepping stone to
a different business or needsupplemental income.
It is a very unique businessmodel.
So, just to wrap this up, whatlife wisdom would you give to
somebody who is coming out ofcollege right now?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
My life wisdom is that you should get as much
experience as possible, and Isay that because there's been
this trend where people are like, get paid what you're worth,
and I agree with that.
But I think asking for that tooearly kind of cuts you off at
the knees, like you need to makesure that you are coming in as
(36:22):
leveraged as possible, meaninglike I remember, um, I would do
work for free, I would do workas an intern, I would do all
types of things just so I couldlearn, so that when it came time
to contribute, I was reallyconfident about what I could
contribute and how.
Because, like, no one can takeyour confidence away from you
and your confidence comes fromcompetence.
One of the things I reallypromote is having a broad
(36:45):
basedbased experience.
That's what I had, right, I didinvestment banking, I planned
weddings, I whitened teeth, Itutored.
I also produced a documentary, Idid corporate.
I did all of those things.
And when you're older, it helpsyou synthesize information in a
strategic and creative way thatother people can't, because
they only ever did one thing.
(37:05):
So all of a sudden, theirability to contextualize
different systems and processesis much more limited.
So that's my personal advicefor people maybe a little more
like me.
I didn't always know what I wasreally good at, but I knew that
I loved working on problems,solving them, making order out
(37:26):
of chaos, and the ability tosynthesize all these different
things and look at it togetherand be like no, these are the
priorities that we need to lookat.
This is how we solve thisproblem that skill not everyone
has, and that comes from gettingas much experience as you can
in all different types of ways.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
I think that is really good advice.
It is such good advice and sorelevant for today.
It's just there's been acultural shift where maybe the
expectation is that the timeshouldn't be given away for free
.
But when you give your timeaway for free, you're not really
giving it away for free,because you're learning
something in the process.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yes.
So I think the mistake isthinking that you're only valued
by a dollar, like a dollaramount, and I would say that
that's just like, really nottrue, right, being able to learn
something.
Normally you have to pay tolearn something, right, and and
like you're learning something,and you're learning something in
context, you're learning how topractice it, you're learning
how it works.
I know that people are afraidof being taken advantage of and
(38:27):
not getting paid what they'reworth, but, like when you don't
know a lot of stuff, you youcan't contextualize things and
so you're not as effective,whereas, like, I can hear
different people say things tome and I can.
I can understand where they'recoming from a lot faster because
I understand the 10 differentways of looking at something, if
that makes sense and what mightpertain to them.
So it's about.
It's about that kind of likeyou can you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Well, and it's not like you're.
It's not like you're workingfree forever.
You may have a full-time job,but then after your job you
might go and pick up someexperience that you are doing
for free, just so that you canbroaden your options for later
on.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeah, and I I've had a lot of experiences where I or
I started underpaid and I waslike I know I'm really underpaid
, but let me see what happenswhen I do a rockstar job for
them.
So I go in, I do the base whatthey want, and then they are
like, oh, you're really good atthis.
And then I'm like, hey, I kindof want double what I was paid.
Usually people will give it tome because they're like I am so
(39:23):
reliant on you or I trust you somuch that I can see that you're
actually worth that.
So, whatever you think yourvalue is, you have to agree on
that.
You can't go in and be like Ithink I'm worth a hundred
dollars an hour and they're likeI don't even know you.
That's insane.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like I don't care what yourdegree is.
I've I've met people that havereally crazy degrees, that are
can't do certain things Right.
(39:44):
So we have to agree on my value.
I'm going to prove it to you.
I'm going to show you that,like I can respect the way that
you work and people will justgenerally give it to you because
they trust you.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah, prove it first, yes, and then earn the right to
get that promotion or get thatraise or get paid more, because
now they already know thatthey're not taking a gamble on
you yeah, I've.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I've never been told no when I've, when I've asked
Like, there's always like thisyes, you deserve that.
And then you ask them whenyou're working for the right
people, because if you thinkyou've proven your work and
they're like no, and then I'mlike, oh, I don't want to work
for you because my upside islimited, because I'm giving you
my best and you don't appreciatethat.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
It's.
It's like a dating relationship.
Everyone should appreciate eachother on the same level.
Yeah, this is real wisdom.
Anybody that's listening in,please listen to what Jen is
saying.
Jen, thank you so much forcoming on and sharing your
business model with us.
The very innovative approachthat you're taking Love the way
that you think and I reallyappreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
It's been an honor.
Today's key takeaways build win, win, win models.
Start noticing problems andfiguring out a business model
that solves a problem for acertain subset of the population
.
Many creatives avoid thebusiness side of their work,
which leaves wide openopportunities for entrepreneurs
(41:09):
who can bridge that gap.
Start small and prove your MVP.
Stay scrappy.
Test your idea within your owncircle to validate demand before
scaling.
Make sure you forecast yourcash flow.
Make sure you forecast yourcash flow.
Low margin, high volume modelscan look great on paper, but if
you don't forecast cash flowproperly, they can sink you.
(41:32):
Make sure your operations andpricing support the pace you're
aiming for.
Make sure to watch yourmarketing expenses like a hawk.
Run lean tests, Look at eachplatform and make sure you know
what your ROI is.
And if you can't track what'shappening with your dollars, try
other avenues.
Having a remote team can savesignificant dollars, but comes
(41:56):
with other challenges.
Removing overhead expenses foroffice space can help you reach
profitability sooner, but one ortwo days a month in the office
with your full team could behighly beneficial.
Manage your team with emotionalintelligence.
How you give feedback can makeor break members of your team.
(42:16):
It's about knowing how peoplehear things, not just what you
say.
Not everyone has experiencedreceiving constructive criticism
, so try and see people as thepeople they are and understand
what motivates them.
Some people are motivated byunderstanding all of the steps
(42:37):
in the process, while othersneed to understand the why
behind the steps.
Every person is an individualand, as a leader, you have to
figure out how to problem solvetogether as a team and how to
motivate people to want to dowhat it is that you want them to
do.
(42:57):
The corporate world can providemore stability and benefits, but
sometimes the work can feelboring, unrewarding and feel
like your efforts have littleimpact.
Entrepreneurship can be moreexciting.
Every day has a new challenge,but stability isn't usually
immediate.
If you like your healthbenefits, free coffees and need
(43:20):
stability, working in corporateAmerica may be a better fit.
Learn some basic businessfinance and accounting.
Being spreadsheet literate andbeing able to create financial
projections is really helpfulwhen starting a business.
Numbers are like a language.
The same goes for businesswriting and understanding how to
(43:42):
craft a professional email thatconnects, whether it's to
partners or clients.
This style of communication ishandy.
Advice is biased, so trust yourjudgment.
Learn to take advice at 75%,not 100%.
Find a like-minded community,meaning, if you're a small
(44:06):
business owner, buildconnections with other small
business owners, whether in yourniche or in your local area.
Being able to bounce ideas andlament on similar problems can
provide emotional support andalso help you solve problems.
This next key takeaway seemslike common knowledge now, but
(44:28):
I'll say it anyway Use AI as aforce multiplier.
If you aren't, your competitorslikely are, and you'll get left
behind because they'll be ableto achieve more work faster and
for less expense.
So if you haven't yet started,jump in and learn how Experience
(44:48):
is worth more than early pay.
Get as much experience aspossible.
Your confidence comes fromcompetence and your value
becomes undeniable when you'veearned trust through results.
So accumulate skills and bewilling to forego the pay a
(45:09):
little bit.
When you learn something andexperience something new, you
might also learn something aboutyourself.
Don't get so hung up onmaximizing the value of your
hour when you're starting out,because this can actually hinder
your growth.
So you may feel like you'restarting out, because this can
actually hinder your growth.
So you may feel like you'restarting out strong, but then
(45:31):
get cut off in your trajectory.
Instead, get a broad base ofexperience, and in all different
types of ways.
Don't just value your time by adollar amount.
You know that education usuallycosts money.
So if you're learning, there'svalue.
If you want to increase yourpay, try this.
(45:54):
First Go above and beyond todeliver more than what you're
being paid to do.
Prove you're worth more.
Then go in and ask for more.
Once you've established thattrust of your work ethic, you
and your employer need to agreeon your value with matched
appreciation.
So if you're proving your worthyet your upside is limited,
(46:18):
perhaps you're in the wrong job.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm your host, anne McGinty.
In today's episode, we'rechatting with Jen Tai, the
co-founder and CEO of Shoot withTwo Ts, a fast-growing company
making professional photographymore accessible for clients and
a reliable supplemental incomefor photographers.
(00:30):
In just seven years, shoot hasgrown from $800,000 to over $9
million in revenue, achievingoperational profitability and
expanding services to over 60cities across the US.
Jen shares her journey in avery candid and authentic way.
(00:51):
We talk about leadership,giving and receiving feedback
and why experience, even unpaid,is one of the most undervalued
assets in today's time valueculture most undervalued assets
in today's time value culture.
Jen was named a Forbes Next1000 honoree, brit Co's 30 AAPI
(01:11):
founders we love to support andon the side, she works as an
actor and speaker.
Shoot has been featured onForbes, oprah Daily, the Today
Show, people and much more.
You'll find a link to shoot inthe episode's description.
(01:36):
If you've been tuning in, youknow this show isn't about
selling anything.
It's about sharing meaningfulstories and learning along the
way.
If how I built my smallbusiness has brought you any
insight, inspiration or evenjust a spark of curiosity, there
are a few simple ways you cansupport the journey, follow the
show, share your favoriteepisode with a friend or leave a
quick review.
(01:57):
Each one truly helps me growthis show.
Thank you, let's get started,jen.
Thank you so much for coming onthe show.
I'm really excited to hear yourstory.
Thanks for having me.
I'm so happy to be here.
So where are you from?
Can you give us a little bit ofa background on you?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I grew up in Allentown, Pennsylvania so I,
you know I was there for like agood 13 years of my childhood,
went to school in Philadelphiaand I've lived in the New York
area ever since I graduated,which has now been a little
North of 20 years.
You know, I did a lot of yearsin the corporate world doing
investment banking, corporatefinance.
I tried doing a little bit ofnonprofit work and then I
(02:42):
transitioned into doing somecreative work.
So I produced a documentary, Itook acting and like writing
classes.
I was an actor and I still amsometimes for upwards of, you
know, over a decade.
So that's kind of how I gotinto the creative world.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
How did that bridge over to starting Shoot Really?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Shoot came about because I wanted to figure out a
business model that solved thegig economy for a certain subset
of artists so that they couldstay artists, because it's so
hard to find enough work andcobble together enough work in
the gig economy, and being anactor kind of taught me that.
So we figured out we could doit for photographers.
(03:22):
But all of this is to say I'mactually not a photographer, I
came at it from an actor's pointof view, right.
But I had a lot of friends whowere artists of all different
sorts and we were like well, wecan't do a business model that
kind of aggregates demand foracting.
It doesn't quite make sense.
So then we were left to thinkabout what industry could have
that and we realized that wecould do it for photography,
(03:49):
meaning the average photographerhas to kind of find a gig here,
a gig there.
They have to cobble togetherenough gigs to create a living.
But we were like can we createa business model that aggregates
demand all at one location sothat the clients come and meet
you somewhere, right?
So much the same way that likewhen you're in a I guess when
you're an actor and you're in ashow all of the people come to
your show and see you.
We were like is there a way todo that for photography, where
(04:10):
we can amplify the demand forthem?
So we realized, if we stationedthem at set places for a
certain timeframe, that we couldhave back-to-back sessions for
them.
So that's really where thatcame from.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
That's interesting.
How did you test the model?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah, so we did an MVP, or like a minimum viable
product, of what we thought ourbusiness model could look like
in New York with our friends andour just general business
network.
There were a couple of usworking on it and we were like,
oh just, you know, if weadvertise these free sessions
where you only pay for thephotos you want, is there enough
demand?
And we realized there was.
(04:47):
So that was really exciting.
You know, we just launched areally rudimentary version of
our website.
We had like a plug and playbooking service and people
booked the sessions and so fromthere we really developed
proprietary systems for it.
But yeah, we trialed it withour own community.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And as far as cash flow goes, how did you know that
the model that you had createdwas going to be sustainable?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
That's such a good question.
So we didn't.
We had a feeling.
We were like I think there'senough of a market because it's
a volume game.
Right, a lot of things are avolume game to cover all of your
costs.
So in the beginning years, youknow, we were like how do we
structure this that we getenough value from each of our
clients and then we have alsoenough clients?
So for the longest time you'rekind of balancing what your
(05:32):
pricing should be, what youradvertising costs should be to
warrant that, and so it took usfive years to become profitable.
Now we're like definitely aprofitable entity.
That's amazing.
Like we hit break even in 2023.
And then in 2024, we actually20X to that profitability, which
is, you know, it sounds crazy,but it was just North of like
40,000 the first year.
(05:54):
So it is impressive.
But at the same time, like youknow, we're going off of a
pretty low number.
But yeah, and then we were likeoh, this, this does have legs.
So like we have to reallyfigure out how to maintain that,
no matter what's happening inthe economy or whatever.
But it was, it was a lot ofvery disciplined working and
betting that it did work in thefirst few years.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Can you describe a little bit more about how this
business model supports thephotographers, how it works for
the clients and then how you'reable to make money as a company?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, that's a great question because our entire
reason for being was to see ifthis business model we could
create was like a win-win-winfor us, the photographer and the
client.
So really we have this ideathat a photographer stationed
somewhere you know someone whogoes to Central Park from like
12 to five has half an hoursessions that they book out
(06:43):
we're looking to see can weattract enough people?
It's really dependent on us tohave the right marketing to
attract the right types ofpeople who want not just one
photo but multiple.
So our main demographic arewhat I call, like millennial and
Gen Z moms.
So that's really where peoplewant the photos.
You want photos and memories ofyour family.
So that's really, you know, thethe impetus for who we're
(07:05):
targeting.
And then on the photographerside, we know that the whole
offer of like a free photo shootis really scary for them.
So we do whatever we can toprotect their time.
We have always offered a 100minimum guarantee per shooting
hour.
So if they're working, they'remaking money, no matter what
clients pay, and then we offerthe greater of that amount or
(07:27):
what they make.
On commissions, we have acommission structure as well.
So the more photos they sell,the more they benefit and on
average, even though we havethat a hundred dollar minimum
guarantee they're making in 2024, they made between 166 and 199
per photography hour, which ispretty great.
So we're always aiming toprotect their time.
We also give them extrapayments if clients are late, if
(07:48):
they don't show up, if theypick up extra sessions.
There's all these other wayswhere we try to really
incentivize them to work for usand make it worth their time and
the way that we work.
So we take a cut of it, but thecut is really to support that
we do all of the marketing,which is insane because it's
like never ending changes in thedigital marketing landscape
that we have to optimize for.
(08:09):
So we do all of that businessstrategy.
You know, gallery, delivery,customer service.
They never have to like dealwith the clients themselves,
basically all of the businessactivity we take care of.
So they just have the freedomto come in their supplemental
time and just do what they lovedoing, which is photography.
So really it's meant to be aconvenient source of
(08:29):
supplemental income forpreexisting photographers.
And then, you know, the clientsbenefit, because photographers
want to make as much money aspossible, so they're
incentivized to give them thebest experience and the best
photos.
And then there's that free offer, so it's a risk free upfront
for them.
So a lot of people who normallywhen you you know you go for a
photo shoot, it can cost upwardsof like 400, 500, 600, if not
(08:49):
more, and it's like multi hoursand it's like, no, you have a
half hour, you know people arenot going to burn out in the
middle of that Like it's theperfect amount of time for
everybody and it's an accessibleprice point where people can
book photo shoots to commemorateall of their life moments, no
matter how big or small.
And that's what we're trying toincentivize is greater demand.
And we started asking ourclients and I think about 25% of
(09:12):
our clients have said thatthey've never booked a
professional photographer beforeworking with us, and we
consider that a major winbecause it's not like we're
taking demand from otherphotographers, we're actually
creating demand in themarketplace, which we consider a
major win.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It is a pretty brilliant business model.
I'm not going to lie.
When I first was reading it Ithought my gosh, how does that
even work?
How many sessions did you needto have before you reached a
breakeven point?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Great question.
So I feel like on a yearlybasis we need to have at least
like around like 43,000 sessions.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Wow.
It's something like that, andthen you have an office space, I
assume, where everybody isworking.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
We do not.
You don't, no, no, no, we'refully remote.
So, like the other part of usfiguring out whether we're
profitable was like whatexpenses can we cut and how can
we automate certain things so wecan still keep our team really
lean, so we can start beingprofitable?
Okay, so where are the greatestexpenses then?
The greatest expenses aredefinitely just the cost of
paying the photographers.
(10:15):
Definitely, obviously, that'sgoing to be a huge portion of it
.
And then it's marketing.
Marketing is a huge part of itbecause we have to really
balance getting enough clientsfor them and optimizing what is
the cost to get them, get themclients.
Are we making also enough perclient to make it worthwhile at
the scale that we're having?
And our year's a little wackybecause people want photos but
(10:36):
they really really want them infourth quarter.
The rest of the year maybe ifthey have like maturity.
So you know, we're trying toincentivize people to come for
the rest of the year but likecome, like September, we don't
have enough photographers tomeet demand.
It's so insane because everyonewants it for holiday cards and
for family reunions, all of thatstuff.
Because of that timing, weactually don't know how we do
(10:57):
financially until like Januaryof the following year.
So it's up to us to optimizefor the year, hope that we stick
the landing, so to speak, andthat it works out in our favor.
But we don't know, and sothere's always this like it's
always terrifying for us upuntil we know how the numbers
land.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
It's an atypical seasonal business.
Yeah, and so if somebody, let'ssay they go for their 30 minute
session and there's 10 or 15photos that they want, what are
they spending At?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
10 photos, you can get your entire gallery for 180.
So it's like $18 a photo.
However, it's actually lessthan that because we include
like $20 of retouching credit.
So if you have like an extratrash can in there or whatever
that you want to take out, or,you know, fly away hairs or
whatever that you want to adjustfor, there's credit to go
towards a retouching of some ofyour photos, if you'd like, and
(11:47):
then you can get your fullgallery for $298.
And that also includes evenmore retouching credit.
And then we have bundledpackages with Paper Culture,
which they provide eco-friendlyprint products.
So there's a photo book orphoto cards, things like that,
to create like invites or cardsfrom.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
How much has to be done on the backend as you grow
in size, Like your team?
How many people are on?
Speaker 2 (12:10):
your team.
We have like 12 peoplefull-time and then we have like
six others that are like thatare part-time for customer
service.
But our team, team, that reallyruns everything.
We have 12 people.
Five of those people are tech,so the remaining six seven
people are really doingoperations or hybrid operations
plus customer service.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
And then the marketing.
So is the marketing outsourcedor in-house?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
It's a little bit of a hybrid.
So we run some of it in-houseand then we have an agency that
runs our Google and Facebookthat we watch like a hawk,
because marketing is soexpensive for us and such a huge
component to how we work.
We look at it on a daily basis.
We have a proprietary trackerso we see how each platform is
doing and then we make decisions, you know, on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Smart, yeah.
And how effective are thevarious marketing strategies?
What works for you and whatdoesn't?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, so there's the evergreen stuff.
So Facebook is definitely anevergreen, it's our greatest
driver of people.
And then Google is also a hugedriver and the two work really
well in tandem.
It's nice because they play offof each other a little bit.
Sometimes people discover youon Facebook or Instagram and
then they Google you, so it'sthose two go really well
(13:22):
together.
And then we also use connectedTV, and that's been an
interesting one, because when wefirst started using that, it
didn't work for us.
It was really expensive, andthen now we've actually gotten
it to work, which is fantastic.
So we have one platform that weuse and we're still looking to
see if there's other ones thatare out there.
And like not all advertisingplatforms are the same.
(13:44):
Some of them don't have thebest tracking and attribution,
so you can't even tell what yourROI is.
So it's a little bit of likeexperimentation, of like, hey,
how do I run ads on on Hulu orDisney plus or like whatever,
and then what does the interfacelook like?
Can I tell what's happeningwith my money?
If I can't, we pull our money.
So we're really good at doingvery lean tests.
Usually.
(14:04):
We've tried other things likepodcast advertising, which is a
little bit hit or miss.
You know radio hit or miss.
Uh, there's things like digitalbillboard, which we haven't
quite gotten ever to work, andthen there's also guerrilla
marketing.
So you know, figuring out like,hey, how do I advertise to
local communities?
That's also different.
So we try everything.
(14:24):
We do really lean tests of likeif it doesn't work, in 10 days
we pull it, and then we alwayswill come back and try again,
because sometimes people changetheir technology and it gets
better.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Wow, this sounds like a lot of whack-a-mole.
It is so.
With Shoot, you wanted totackle an industry and you
wanted to solve a problem.
Where did this entrepreneurialspirit come from for you?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
I think it's because I worked in corporate America
and I didn't really enjoy thatexperience even though I did
enjoy the stability and thebenefits and all of that stuff
and I was like you know, I don'tfeel happy here, Like I'll go
to work, but I'm so bored.
Once I learn my job I'm superbored and not stimulated, and
then I get very existential, andso I've always had that.
I think there are certain timeswhere having a stable job
really matters, right, I thinkif you have young children
(15:14):
actually I'll say this if youhave any really major financial
thing that you're trying toachieve, the stable job is great
.
Or if you have any healthissues.
I think about, like, all thereasons why.
Yeah, there's actually a lot ofreasons why, but there were
points in time where I was likeno, I can gamble a little more,
Like I think I want somethingslightly different, and that's
why I did transition into doinga lot of arts stuff where I was
(15:35):
producing a documentary, Iwasn't getting paid for it, I'd
rather accumulate skills and ifI can gamble on that a little
bit, I'm going to do that.
I'm willing to forego the pay alittle bit just to learn
something and experiencesomething new Cause.
Maybe I'll learn somethingabout myself.
And I think in the process ofdoing that, I discovered that I
did like startup environmentsbecause everything was totally
new and it was things that Ididn't know Like.
(15:58):
I liked having differentchallenges every day, and so I
realized when I, when I was inthat environment, I was like I
kind of missed that.
So it made me go back to beinglike is there another startup
that I can be part of or likework on?
And so I kind of stumbled uponrealizing that I had more of an
entrepreneurial spirit than Irealized.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
And now that you've been an entrepreneur for seven
or so years, what do you missabout the corporate life or
world, or do you not?
Would you ever consider goingback to it?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I mean I would say I do.
I do miss the benefit.
The benefits are better, youknow, like the health benefits
are much better.
You know, sometimes you do misshaving an office to go to and
having all of like the perks oflike free coffee and all of that
fun stuff.
You can still have that, Ithink, in an entrepreneurial
existence, but we don't havethat.
So I think there's aspects ofcommunity and there's certain
(16:53):
just perks that are really niceto have when you have a
corporate entity.
But other than that I don'tmiss the work at all.
I felt like I worked on a lotof things that were just nice to
have but not very muchnecessary.
Or I would work forever onsomething and it just like
nothing happened with it.
So I'm like my work doesn'teven matter, whereas literally
every decision we make asentrepreneurs makes a huge
difference somewhere.
(17:14):
So all of a sudden everythingmatters and it's it's kind of
nice to work knowing that.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And those fringe benefits can come as your
profitability increases.
Yes, exactly, those fringebenefits can come as your
profitability increases.
Yes, exactly.
Have you taken anything?
I imagine that you have, so Ishould rephrase that in saying
what have you taken from yourpast professional experience
whether it's the acting or it'sthe investment banking into your
business world?
(17:40):
What came with you that's beenthe most helpful?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Oh my gosh, okay.
So like, very practicallyspeaking, the most helpful thing
was for my investment bankingdays, like learning how to be
very spreadsheet literate andcreate financial projections.
When you're an entrepreneur,like in, money obviously matters
because it determines whetheror not you have a business or
not.
It's helpful to have thoseskills.
It's helpful to know how toproject things Like I can
weirdly do that in my sleep.
It's like a weird thing.
(18:05):
It's like knowing a language.
I'm like, oh gosh, I, everytime I look at a spreadsheet I'm
like I don't know if I can doit.
And then I'm like, well, I cando it.
Like it's so strange.
So I appreciate that Right Cause, if I had to learn and then how
to write business writing, likegetting all of those skills out
(18:27):
of the way Really really great.
I would always recommend thatpeople have that.
And then from my acting days, Ithink what I really pulled from
that is how to give peoplenotes.
So everything's hypersensitivein the acting world and you have
to know how to give peoplenotes, because people hear
differently and I see that inplay so much as a people manager
.
Now, how to give notes, how tospeak to people if they respond
(18:50):
poorly how to kind of tacticallydeal with all of that.
What do you?
Speaker 1 (18:54):
mean by give notes, give feedback, oh, feedback.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Sorry, yeah, it's called giving notes and acting,
but when you give feedback topeople on your team, it's also
still touchy right.
It's the same thing, likepeople get defensive and how do
you talk through people's BS andhow do you, you know, how do
you kind of get people to dowhat you need them to do and
have them grow and haverealizations and all of that
stuff.
There is a sensitivity to thatand there is kind of a strategy
(19:19):
you can have when you reallyunderstand the people on your
team, which is important to have.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
So you know seeing the people as the people they
are.
Okay, so give us some tips.
Then teach us what you knowabout giving notes.
What's the best way to do thatfor the outcome that you are
hoping for?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
How would I articulate this?
Let me see.
So I would say people aremotivated by like they.
They are both motivated andunderstand things very
specifically.
So, for example, I had a teammember that you could tell them
prescriptive things, but theycouldn't understand it until you
gave them, like the overallrubric of like hey, we're
(19:57):
telling you this because like.
So, if you were like hey, justdo a, a, b, c and D, like, they
were like okay.
And so then we were like hey,we're asking you to do this for
these particular reasons.
This is why it's good forstrategy whatever.
Then they can contextualize whatthey're being told and be able
to do it.
So that's one type of person,another type of person.
We would then try to talk tothem from a contextual point of
(20:20):
view.
Hey, it's really important thatyou do this because you know we
need better oversight, we needto be able to share work streams
.
We could say all that stuff,but it wasn't until we like
dictated A, b, c and D that theycould even do anything.
So, knowing the differencebetween people and then,
similarly like we have someneurodiverse people on our team
knowing that and being like okay, I know how you hear and I know
(20:42):
what things suit you best, likethis is how we're going to try
to you know, come to thistogether and making it seem like
teamwork.
So I think, understanding thateveryone is different from each
other and from you, and figuringout how to problem solve that
together, making them feel likethey're part of that process and
making sure they feel safe inthat and not just criticized.
(21:02):
A lot of people just come froma background where they don't
know how to take criticism.
I think there's a lot ofexamples where criticism is only
meant as a destructive forceversus a constructive right.
So knowing that there's alreadythat kind of sensitivity there,
like being able to plan andbudget around, that is really
important.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
That is such a good skill to have, just in life, but
then also in leadership andmanagement, and one that I wish
was taught to everybody.
It's really hard.
It's like a very compassionateway.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, it's an EQ thing and not everyone has the
same definition of EQ or feelits importance Right.
And then, and then it's alsoabout judgment, because like you
could read things one way, butsomebody reads it a different
and then like, how do you bridgethat in a way that that again
feels like you're on the sameteam versus like against each
other, navigating all that kindof stuff?
That's the soft skills thatwill really build or destroy
(21:56):
your team for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, and to keep moving forward without the
judgment.
Yes, so that everybody cancommunicate in a stronger
fashion.
Yes, yes, so that everybody cancommunicate in a stronger
fashion.
Yes, so, with the building ofyour team.
So, first of all, how manypartners did you have going into
this business?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
I mean it's it's changed a little bit, but like
we originally started witharound three people and like
some people jumped on, somepeople jumped off and then we I
think we were always around likethree people in the very
beginning stages and then weslowly started adding from there
.
So we added somebody to docustomer service.
That was like the first kind oflike team member beyond the
(22:32):
original team members on it, andthen we started adding more and
more people.
So you know, then we have morecustomer service people.
We have a tech team which wedidn't really have until year,
like three.
And then we added somebody whodoes recruiting for a
photographer or somebody whomanages our locations or our
partnership.
So like we kind of added as wewent and oftentimes we took
people who had much moreseasonal jobs.
(22:52):
So because we're fourth quarterheavy, we would need a lot of
customer service people infourth quarter, but then we'd
have to let go of them or likefurlough them from January
through August, which is a longamount of time.
So we're like, can we use thesededicated people in different
ways?
So then we gave them hybridroles.
So we actually have quite anumber of people with hybrid
roles so we can make themfull-time.
So our full-time stays constantthrough the year, so that
(23:14):
there's about 12 people and thenwe have anywhere from like an
extra one to six people handlingcustomer service, six being,
like the most additional, youknow, the highest amount
additional for fourth quarter.
But that's kind of that flex isreally in that customer service
portion.
One of my co-founders is myprimary advisor and he's a
(23:35):
serial entrepreneur.
So in the beginning it was alot of his guidance to be like I
think you should focus on this.
I think you should focus onthat.
The more years that we were inbusiness we kind of figured that
out for ourselves.
We're like, hey, we need this,we need that.
So we're like, how big is theneed?
Like you have to prioritizekind of the needs that you have.
And then you're also looking atthe people that you have and
seeing if there's a direct match.
So, for example, if, like, Icould get somebody, I was like,
(23:56):
oh God, we really need someonefor partnerships.
And we're like, hey, thisresource of ours is really good
with clients, so maybe they'd bereally good with partners
because it's kind of the sameskillset.
So then we kind of float thatand trial that.
And I do think, especially whenyou're doing something like
adding skills to somebody, youcan misjudge that somebody has a
certain skillset or that theywould like the additional work.
(24:19):
Some people might not rightit's not exactly the best fit.
So I would always at least tryit a little bit, see if they
like it, see if they're good atit, and then, if they are, then
you know, make that official.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
With everybody being remote, what's your structure
around keeping your team on thesame page?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, so we have like an all team operations meeting
on Mondays and then, separately,the tech team has their own
meeting on Monday, and like wekind of compare notes and look
at things and then everyone kindof goes off on their own and
then, you know, there's kind ofthis uh, our customer service
lead then tells the rest of theteam that he has their his own
meeting with them.
So we also provide like emailupdates where, like, hey, these
are the development, this iswhat we're focusing on, these
(24:59):
are the things that we'veachieved, these are the things
that we're looking at.
I'll admit, though, like Ididn't realize until maybe like
this year or last year, I'm like, oh, it would be so much more
beneficial if we had even justlike one or two days in an
office, where the osmosis wouldbe much more natural.
Because now we have to be sopurposeful about being like who
knows what, because sometimeswe'll make a decision and forget
to tell people, like it's boundto happen, and also people
(25:22):
might not really like that andfeel left out.
So like it's really importantfor us to be really
conscientious about that.
We basically do go throughmeetings, email updates and then
if anyone ever has anyquestions or anything where it
was like hey, you can alwaysbook a time with us Like you see
the full availability of ourcalendar, just like we're
usually online anyway, so youcan happen to join one of our
calls to ask us any questions.
So we make ourselves superaccessible in that way, so the
(25:42):
rest of our team doesn't everfeel like they can't find the
answer they want.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And your normal workload like a regular week for
you.
What does it look like?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
There's no real like regular work for me.
We just do what is the mostimportant thing of the day and
we kind of go through that way,and so there's definitely no set
thing.
Like I think that the markersthat are the same are the
meetings where we talk strategyand we figure out, like what
we're going to do and if there'sany changes we need to make to
our understanding of how thebusiness is running.
And then we may have to dealwith legal one week accounting,
(26:13):
one week taxes, like it, justupdates, and we just have to do
whatever's the most importantand time sensitive.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
That's kind of what makes being an entrepreneur fun,
though, isn't it that it's justalways changing.
Yeah, isn't it that it's?
Speaker 2 (26:22):
just always changing.
Yeah, so you can't.
You don't get bored.
I'll say, like there's never aday where we're like I'm so
bored, but you know, there areweeks where you're like I hate
taxes, but you're like, but thenice thing about hating taxes is
that the season is over.
Like you know what I'm saying.
There's like a kind of a finiteamount of time that you suffer
through each one of those things, and before you started this
seven years ago.
So what have you?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
learned the most about doing business or running
a company or managing a teamthat you didn't know prior?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I would never want to kind of tip off my past self,
because I think learning, all ofthose things happens for a
reason and you only learn bymaking mistakes, and so I don't
ever regret my mistakes.
But I will say I took a badpiece of advice early on when
somebody had told me that like,oh, your accountant doesn't
really matter, and I was like,oh, okay, I don't have to
prioritize that so much.
Right Of all the things I'mlike in the beginning especially
, I'm like taking everyone's,everyone who's done it before.
(27:18):
I'm like taking their advicemuch more literally.
And then I realized that thatwas really not good advice to
take and it was a very costlymistake, and so that one I
regret.
But I think it's only throughtrial and error and working on
things yourself that you realizewho you can trust.
It can be like you overalltrust a person but they can be
biased about this or that, andthen you you know, you just
(27:38):
learn that over time and peoplelove to give advice, even if
it's not necessarily wanted.
Yeah, and people give biasedadvice and you can't be like,
well, they know so much betterthan me, so I'm going to listen
to them at a hundred Like Ithink you have to learn to
listen to people at like 75 andthen take what's useful to you
and throw out what's not anddon't take anything personally.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
And take everything with a grain of salt, because
their experience is probablyvery different to yours.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Yeah, and you know a lot of what you're going through
is normal, because it's goingto be normal the first time you
do something that everything'ssuper confusing and just try to
find mentors and other peopleand other sources of information
to validate your experience,cause you'll find it, if you
really look for it, you'll findit.
And finding a community whereyou can bounce ideas off of
(28:25):
other people.
Like you know, when we werehaving a hard time hiring quote
the right people, I'm like whyis this so hard?
I don't, is it just us?
And people are like, oh my God,we complain about this all the
time.
And so when you know thatyou're in the same boat, you're
like, oh okay, so I don't haveto on top of experience how hard
this is, feel shame about it.
You know that makes it easier.
So it's things like that.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
I agree.
A lot of what you learn, youkind of just have to learn by
doing.
You know people listen to thispodcast and they can get a lot
of information from others whohave done what they want to do
before they're starting.
Ultimately, listening is a verydifferent thing to doing
Absolutely, absolutely.
(29:10):
So how is, how are youcurrently using AI in your
business and do you have anyconcerns over the impact of AI
on photography?
Speaker 2 (29:15):
So the way that we're using AI right now is we use it
a lot for content creation andjust like pulling up a first
draft of anything.
So if we have like a blog postwhere like, hey, these are kind
of the ideas that I have, itjust helps you coagulate all of
your ideas much faster and Ilove that.
So, across the board, like wedo use it for a lot of writing,
just as like again a first draft, we'll always put our own spin
(29:37):
on it afterwards, but like thefirst ideas and first research,
really great to have AI do thatfor us.
No, I think our tech team alsouses AI to help code some stuff
and have shortcuts that way, too.
In terms of how I feel like AIis going to affect the
photography industry, there's alot of editing tools and other
(29:58):
tools that help just some of theworkflows for photography that
we want to introduce ourphotographers to, just so it
saves time when they're doingthe post-production stuff.
So when they're actuallyphotographing, like they have
them and their camera and that'sone experience, but then all of
their stuff afterwards whetherit's culling, editing, whatever
there's a lot of AI that existsthat helps them edit photos in
their style much faster, sothey're not burning so much time
in things that are very adminoriented, those kinds of things
(30:22):
we want to share with them forsure.
And then, in general, I justdon't think that you can
substitute real photography withAI photos.
Now, that's not to say there'ssome really great AI photos out
there.
So, like I 10 selfies and itcomes up with a pretty photo,
realistic headshot that's fine,but I feel like you would never
(30:52):
want an AI generated photo ofyour family for Christmas where
you're not in a real place.
Like you want your actualfamily.
Does that make like you want anactual memory?
And so I feel like, to that end, I'm not concerned for what we
do, since we do portraitphotography.
It's about your relationships,it's about milestones.
Do I think like AI could comein and take the same family and
(31:15):
put them like in a photo with,like the Taj Mahal?
Yeah, that's fine.
Like I don't care.
If you want that, that's fine,but you still need, at base, the
real photos of real people.
That's, I think, what peoplewant at base the real photos of
real people.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
That's, I think, what people want.
Yeah, I think that people willwant that for a long time.
From how I've seen it, and fromphotographers and videographers
that I've spoken to, it seemslike the custom style work,
where you're interfacing withanother human, is just not
really going away.
Where do you see shoot going,say, a year from now, two years
from now, five years, like whatwould you like to see for the
(31:47):
trajectory of your company?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, so like ideally , I would love when people say,
like we should get photos takenof our family, that the first
brand that comes to mind isshoot with duties.
I want to be like the brandname that people think of when
they think I want a trustedplatform that gives me high
quality, affordable photos thathelps benefit local
photographers.
Like I want all that entirenarrative to be in the concept
(32:12):
of when they think about shoot.
And so you know, we want todefinitely grow our brand in the
US.
So many people still don't evenknow that we even exist and so
there's so many families outthere, and then we want to just
have more market share in thatway.
And then, I think you know,looking longer term out, we want
to figure out how to beinternational.
So expanding first to Englishspeaking countries so it's
(32:33):
easier for our customer serviceteam, like Canada, australia,
new Zealand, england, all thatfun stuff.
Like I think we would love tobe able to expand our footprint
that way, cause I think ourtechnology and our platform can
support that, and also creatingmore robust solutions for the
photographers and also likebetter bundles for our clients
so they get photos and they canget whatever photo products they
(32:56):
want with it.
I think we just want the entireuniverse to be a little tighter
and better.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
What about the talent that you bring in?
How do you decide who gets tobe on the platform and who
doesn't?
How do you decide?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
who gets to be on the platform and who doesn't.
So we have a really rigorousscreening process.
So people apply on our websiteand we look at their portfolio
first and we also look at theirequipment.
We need to make sure that theirequipment is of a certain
quality and level where it'sgoing to create high enough
megapixels so that if peoplewant to blow up their photos and
really enlarge them, that itdoesn't lose quality.
So that's kind of the firstorder of business.
(33:31):
We look at their portfolio tosee hey, from the photos that
they're generating and showingme, do they look like they can
photograph in the style that wecurrently have our photos
looking like on our website andour Instagram, because that's
why people book us.
And then, if they pass that,then we invite them for a video
interview.
We interview them to make surethat they have the technical
skills, the personality as well,because having your photos
(33:53):
taken is inherently a veryvulnerable process and a lot of
people are not models.
They don't know how to pose.
So having someone really beable to dictate that and make
people feel comfortable and makepeople feel seen and confident,
we want to see that that personunderstands that that's part of
being a photographer right, sothat's also a part of it.
If they pass that stage, then wego on to having a test shoot,
where we have them do a trialtest shoot over 10 minutes to
(34:15):
see if they can photograph inour style.
Like, what kind of variety canyou do in a 10 minute session?
Because our sessions are 30minutes.
So it's kind of like a slice ofthat.
Once we decide that they shouldjoin our team, we then do a
background check and then weonboard them and then they you
know, when they take a test,they understand our policies,
they join our team.
So it's a lot of differentsteps to make sure we have the
right people on the team.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And how many photographers do you have on
your team now?
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Yeah, we have like a little North of 750 right now.
Oh my gosh Across the U S yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Have you had anybody discontinue, because their
photography brand is growingindependently and so they they
tend to focus on that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
We've had cases where people have stayed for the
seven years that we've been inexistence and we've had people
who feel like they graduate andwe fully welcome everyone at
every stage, like we don't takeit personally.
We are here to support you.
So if that means that you'relike, hey, my wedding
photography business is takingoff and I don't want to be in
your platform anymore, we'relike we're sad, but go ahead,
fully support you.
(35:13):
If you ever want to come back,we're always here for you.
And then we've had other peopleleave for other things, like we
.
One of my favoritephotographers was a great
photographer but really wantedto grow his tattoo business, so
he used this to make enoughmoney to start his tattoo
business and now he tattoos mostof his time and I love that for
him.
We just want to be a reallyreliable source of supplemental
income for people who aretalented photographers.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
This is such a unique business model that serves a
very niche need, whether you'reusing it as a stepping stone to
a different business or needsupplemental income.
It is a very unique businessmodel.
So, just to wrap this up, whatlife wisdom would you give to
somebody who is coming out ofcollege right now?
Speaker 2 (36:01):
My life wisdom is that you should get as much
experience as possible, and Isay that because there's been
this trend where people are like, get paid what you're worth,
and I agree with that.
But I think asking for that tooearly kind of cuts you off at
the knees, like you need to makesure that you are coming in as
(36:22):
leveraged as possible, meaninglike I remember, um, I would do
work for free, I would do workas an intern, I would do all
types of things just so I couldlearn, so that when it came time
to contribute, I was reallyconfident about what I could
contribute and how.
Because, like, no one can takeyour confidence away from you
and your confidence comes fromcompetence.
One of the things I reallypromote is having a broad
(36:45):
basedbased experience.
That's what I had, right, I didinvestment banking, I planned
weddings, I whitened teeth, Itutored.
I also produced a documentary, Idid corporate.
I did all of those things.
And when you're older, it helpsyou synthesize information in a
strategic and creative way thatother people can't, because
they only ever did one thing.
(37:05):
So all of a sudden, theirability to contextualize
different systems and processesis much more limited.
So that's my personal advicefor people maybe a little more
like me.
I didn't always know what I wasreally good at, but I knew that
I loved working on problems,solving them, making order out
(37:26):
of chaos, and the ability tosynthesize all these different
things and look at it togetherand be like no, these are the
priorities that we need to lookat.
This is how we solve thisproblem that skill not everyone
has, and that comes from gettingas much experience as you can
in all different types of ways.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
I think that is really good advice.
It is such good advice and sorelevant for today.
It's just there's been acultural shift where maybe the
expectation is that the timeshouldn't be given away for free
.
But when you give your timeaway for free, you're not really
giving it away for free,because you're learning
something in the process.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yes.
So I think the mistake isthinking that you're only valued
by a dollar, like a dollaramount, and I would say that
that's just like, really nottrue, right, being able to learn
something.
Normally you have to pay tolearn something, right, and and
like you're learning something,and you're learning something in
context, you're learning how topractice it, you're learning
how it works.
I know that people are afraidof being taken advantage of and
(38:27):
not getting paid what they'reworth, but, like when you don't
know a lot of stuff, you youcan't contextualize things and
so you're not as effective,whereas, like, I can hear
different people say things tome and I can.
I can understand where they'recoming from a lot faster because
I understand the 10 differentways of looking at something, if
that makes sense and what mightpertain to them.
So it's about.
It's about that kind of likeyou can you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Well, and it's not like you're.
It's not like you're workingfree forever.
You may have a full-time job,but then after your job you
might go and pick up someexperience that you are doing
for free, just so that you canbroaden your options for later
on.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeah, and I I've had a lot of experiences where I or
I started underpaid and I waslike I know I'm really underpaid
, but let me see what happenswhen I do a rockstar job for
them.
So I go in, I do the base whatthey want, and then they are
like, oh, you're really good atthis.
And then I'm like, hey, I kindof want double what I was paid.
Usually people will give it tome because they're like I am so
(39:23):
reliant on you or I trust you somuch that I can see that you're
actually worth that.
So, whatever you think yourvalue is, you have to agree on
that.
You can't go in and be like Ithink I'm worth a hundred
dollars an hour and they're likeI don't even know you.
That's insane.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like I don't care what yourdegree is.
I've I've met people that havereally crazy degrees, that are
can't do certain things Right.
(39:44):
So we have to agree on my value.
I'm going to prove it to you.
I'm going to show you that,like I can respect the way that
you work and people will justgenerally give it to you because
they trust you.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah, prove it first, yes, and then earn the right to
get that promotion or get thatraise or get paid more, because
now they already know thatthey're not taking a gamble on
you yeah, I've.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I've never been told no when I've, when I've asked
Like, there's always like thisyes, you deserve that.
And then you ask them whenyou're working for the right
people, because if you thinkyou've proven your work and
they're like no, and then I'mlike, oh, I don't want to work
for you because my upside islimited, because I'm giving you
my best and you don't appreciatethat.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
It's.
It's like a dating relationship.
Everyone should appreciate eachother on the same level.
Yeah, this is real wisdom.
Anybody that's listening in,please listen to what Jen is
saying.
Jen, thank you so much forcoming on and sharing your
business model with us.
The very innovative approachthat you're taking Love the way
that you think and I reallyappreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
It's been an honor.
Today's key takeaways build win, win, win models.
Start noticing problems andfiguring out a business model
that solves a problem for acertain subset of the population
.
Many creatives avoid thebusiness side of their work,
which leaves wide openopportunities for entrepreneurs
(41:09):
who can bridge that gap.
Start small and prove your MVP.
Stay scrappy.
Test your idea within your owncircle to validate demand before
scaling.
Make sure you forecast yourcash flow.
Make sure you forecast yourcash flow.
Low margin, high volume modelscan look great on paper, but if
you don't forecast cash flowproperly, they can sink you.
(41:32):
Make sure your operations andpricing support the pace you're
aiming for.
Make sure to watch yourmarketing expenses like a hawk.
Run lean tests, Look at eachplatform and make sure you know
what your ROI is.
And if you can't track what'shappening with your dollars, try
other avenues.
Having a remote team can savesignificant dollars, but comes
(41:56):
with other challenges.
Removing overhead expenses foroffice space can help you reach
profitability sooner, but one ortwo days a month in the office
with your full team could behighly beneficial.
Manage your team with emotionalintelligence.
How you give feedback can makeor break members of your team.
(42:16):
It's about knowing how peoplehear things, not just what you
say.
Not everyone has experiencedreceiving constructive criticism
, so try and see people as thepeople they are and understand
what motivates them.
Some people are motivated byunderstanding all of the steps
(42:37):
in the process, while othersneed to understand the why
behind the steps.
Every person is an individualand, as a leader, you have to
figure out how to problem solvetogether as a team and how to
motivate people to want to dowhat it is that you want them to
do.
(42:57):
The corporate world can providemore stability and benefits, but
sometimes the work can feelboring, unrewarding and feel
like your efforts have littleimpact.
Entrepreneurship can be moreexciting.
Every day has a new challenge,but stability isn't usually
immediate.
If you like your healthbenefits, free coffees and need
(43:20):
stability, working in corporateAmerica may be a better fit.
Learn some basic businessfinance and accounting.
Being spreadsheet literate andbeing able to create financial
projections is really helpfulwhen starting a business.
Numbers are like a language.
The same goes for businesswriting and understanding how to
(43:42):
craft a professional email thatconnects, whether it's to
partners or clients.
This style of communication ishandy.
Advice is biased, so trust yourjudgment.
Learn to take advice at 75%,not 100%.
Find a like-minded community,meaning, if you're a small
(44:06):
business owner, buildconnections with other small
business owners, whether in yourniche or in your local area.
Being able to bounce ideas andlament on similar problems can
provide emotional support andalso help you solve problems.
This next key takeaway seemslike common knowledge now, but
(44:28):
I'll say it anyway Use AI as aforce multiplier.
If you aren't, your competitorslikely are, and you'll get left
behind because they'll be ableto achieve more work faster and
for less expense.
So if you haven't yet started,jump in and learn how Experience
(44:48):
is worth more than early pay.
Get as much experience aspossible.
Your confidence comes fromcompetence and your value
becomes undeniable when you'veearned trust through results.
So accumulate skills and bewilling to forego the pay a
(45:09):
little bit.
When you learn something andexperience something new, you
might also learn something aboutyourself.
Don't get so hung up onmaximizing the value of your
hour when you're starting out,because this can actually hinder
your growth.
So you may feel like you'restarting out, because this can
actually hinder your growth.
So you may feel like you'restarting out strong, but then
(45:31):
get cut off in your trajectory.
Instead, get a broad base ofexperience, and in all different
types of ways.
Don't just value your time by adollar amount.
You know that education usuallycosts money.
So if you're learning, there'svalue.
If you want to increase yourpay, try this.
(45:54):
First Go above and beyond todeliver more than what you're
being paid to do.
Prove you're worth more.
Then go in and ask for more.
Once you've established thattrust of your work ethic, you
and your employer need to agreeon your value with matched
appreciation.
So if you're proving your worthyet your upside is limited,
(46:18):
perhaps you're in the wrong job.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
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