May 13, 2025 • 42 mins
Today’s episode is not so much about starting a business, but a glimpse into the neuroscience of influence and the power of Neurolinguistic Programming.
My guest is Dr. Josh Davis, PhD in psychology and neuroscience from Columbia University. He’s the international bestselling author of Two Awesome Hours and an upcoming title The Difference that Makes the Difference.
Josh is the founder of the Science-Based Leadership Institute, a sought-after keynote speaker, and his writing has appeared in Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Psychology Today, Inc., and more.
In this interview, explore the fascinating world of Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP)—what it is, how it can help us connect, communicate more effectively, lead with greater empathy, and shift self-limiting beliefs.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McGinty, your host,and today's episode is not so
much about starting a businessbut a glimpse into the
neuroscience of influence andthe power of neuro-linguistic
programming.
And the power ofneuro-linguistic programming.
(00:29):
My guest is Dr Josh Davis, phdin psychology and neuroscience
from Columbia University.
He's the internationalbest-selling author of Two
Awesome Hours and has anupcoming title the Difference
that Makes the Difference.
Josh is the founder of theScience-Based Leadership
Institute, a sought-afterkeynote speaker.
Josh is the founder of theScience-Based Leadership
Institute, a sought-afterkeynote speaker, and his writing
has appeared in HarvardBusiness Review, fast Company,
(00:50):
psychology Today, inc.
And more.
In this interview, we explorethe fascinating world of
neuro-linguistic programming,what it is, how it can help us
connect, communicate moreeffectively, lead with greater
empathy and shift self-limitingbeliefs.
You'll find links to connectwith Josh in the episode's
(01:11):
description.
Neurolinguistic programminglike.
Can you just for anybody who isnot familiar with it, can you
just please explain it to us alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So neuro-linguistic programming is a set of best
practices that come frompsychotherapies that are very
good at helping people makechanges quickly and in lasting
ways, and a lot of the tools canbe applied in day-to-day
context where you're not doingtherapy but you're still wanting
to make some change to how youthink, feel or act.
And it began 50 years ago.
(01:45):
There were a whole bunch of newtherapies at the time cognitive
therapy, gestalt therapy,family therapy, hypnotherapy and
so you know these therapistsare getting results much quicker
, and so a lot of therapists atthe time, including my parents
wanted to understand what'sgoing on, and the typical way of
going about it was to just goand try to observe and copy what
these great pioneers were doing.
So in NLP, the people who wentto study some of these great
(02:10):
pioneers were a linguist and apartner of his, so they were
coming at it with a languagelens to unpacking the form, not
just the content.
So instead of just trying tocopy, you know, say this or do
this in this context, theylooked at both verbal and
nonverbal patterns in thetherapist and in the patients
and went around teaching it, andit was very effective.
(02:31):
One of the reasons was thatthey also really the most
important piece that sets itapart is that they taught people
the process that they used forlearning what these patterns
(02:52):
were, which is called modeling.
So how do you unpack somebody'smental model for what they're
doing?
So how do we unpack a mentalmodel?
There's so much here, and thisis kind of the core of what
somebody who does NLP is doingis they're approaching an
interaction, thinking aboutwhat's this person's mental
model right?
How can I understand it?
Right?
So some of the things come outin language and you don't need
(03:14):
to be thinking oh no, I have towatch everything I'm going to
say.
It's not like that, it's.
Here's an example.
I think that makes it seem muchmore obvious or approachable.
There are many things that wesay that reflect what can be
limiting beliefs.
You'll hear me say frequentlyit could mean this or it can be
this.
That's a really important partof making NLP work is that you
recognize you're picking up on aclue that many times is correct
(03:36):
, but it doesn't necessarilyalways correct.
I mean, we're humans.
Nothing is going to be 100% ofthe time.
So some language patterns thatreflect limiting beliefs.
So if somebody is talking about, oh, you know what, at this
point in my life I should reallybe running my own company.
This should, should, should,should, should.
Right, okay.
So when we talk that way, itcould just be a way of talking,
(03:57):
but very often it reflects arelationship you have with the
task that involves some limitingbeliefs, relationship you have
with the task that involves somelimiting beliefs.
Albert Ellis, one of the greatcognitive therapists.
He says there are three muststhat hold us back I must do well
, you must treat me well and theworld must be easy.
Have you ever thought of thoseas limiting beliefs before?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I can see them as limiting beliefs when you say
them that way.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
yes, I can see them as limiting beliefs when you say
them that way.
Yes, so often we actually limitourselves when we're saying
this should be this way, Ishould have done this, I should,
and so if you're listening forthat, or then you might hear
that and you can get curious andyou can just kind of explore.
Someone says you know, I shouldbe doing so much more with my
kids.
Go, oh, okay, what would happenif you didn't?
And often it takes people to aninteresting place and then it's
(04:47):
like, well, you know, I'd bekind of feel like I'm missing
out, but I would have to give up.
You know, this work thing that'sso important to me and I, you
know I have a good enoughrelationship with my kid, so it
can help people get to a placewhere they're either making
peace with it or they'rechoosing a new goal, or maybe
they're choosing a newrelationship with the task.
You know what I get to do morestuff with my kids' school.
(05:09):
I want to, I can.
And then it's no longer aboutthe pressure, it's like an
opportunity.
So when you hear a certainlanguage patterns that suggests
there could be a limiting belief, you can explore it.
So that's one way to start tounpack the mental model, and
there are many more ways.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I know exactly what you're talking about.
I actually, the other night, Itried an example of this, maybe
not even realizing that, maybe Iwas using some theories from
your book, but my daughter washaving a very hard time with an
overwhelming amount of emotions,and her emotions were
controlling her.
She's nine and I pulled heraside and I just said look, you
(05:48):
are you and your emotions arenot you, but your emotions are
there and you can be in controlof your emotions or they can be
in control of you, but today isyour birthday, and so you can
choose to say okay, over tiredsadness, I see you, you're there
, but I'm not going to let youruin my birthday because I want
(06:09):
to be happy today.
And it it shifted her soinstantly, just the idea that
she could.
So is this what you're talkingabout?
When it comes to the way thatwe think of something, we can
change our whole interaction andrelationship with it solely by
the choice of words that we useand the way that we think about
(06:30):
it.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
It is possible to do that, and the words can have a
very big impact on you.
They have to influence themeaning that you make of it, but
very often they do.
It sounds like you saidmultiple things to her, so you
helped her to reframe what wasgoing on in terms of her having
choice as opposed to somethinghappening to her.
You also told her you can dothis, so that sets her mind down
(06:54):
a path of considering the waysshe can do it, because you've
presupposed it's possible and soyou don't have to ask her is it
possible?
Then she'll get stuck at thatpoint.
You jumped ahead of that.
You said you can do this, andthen you invite her to think
about how she can do it right,which is also a language pattern
that you can both spot and usein NLP, and that one comes from
hypnotherapy.
Actually, in terms of likereframing, you know what the
(07:18):
meaning is.
That's like much more of like acognitive therapy kind of thing,
and you'll find that certainlyin NLP you didn't use these
words, but I heard it this way.
Let me know, if I'm wrong thatyou know what a shame it would
be if you were to allow this tocause you to not have your
birthday.
It's like, yeah, you can be sad.
You also separated the feelingsfrom her.
(07:38):
You invited her to considerdifferent parts of herself, and
that's something that comes fromgestalt therapy.
That's an NLP where you canhave what we call parts work,
where a part of me feels thisway, a part of me feels that way
Metaphorically.
People can really have a prettyeasy time usually taking one
perspective talking to the other.
You know, separating them,having them be two separate
entities for a while until theycan reconcile, and then finding
(08:01):
a way to reconcile.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Was wondering if you could tell us what the biggest
mistakes are that people makewhen they're trying to influence
or persuade somebody else.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, one of them is that we very often get attached
to trying to make our point,whatever it is.
We believe, put a lot of energyinto trying to show that we're
right, or convince the otherperson, or speak to them on this
logical level, withoutrealizing that unless they're
open to listening, you know,that could have the opposite
(08:32):
effect.
It could come across asbelittling or as suggesting that
you don't care what they haveto say, or maybe it's just
something that they disagreewith.
Their defenses are up, but Ithink one of the biggest
mistakes is is that we don'tfirst take the time to earn the
right to be heard, because, yeah, you've got your message, but
you're not just communicating amessage.
You're communicating a messageto a person, and that person has
(08:54):
to want to listen.
You can never make someonethink something.
You can never make someone dosomething or feel something.
They do that and they have towant to, or at least be open to
it, and so I think that's athat's a big one.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
If you just make that one shift, I mean that'll
change so much.
So let's say that somebody isopen to receiving the
information that we're sharing.
What is happening in the brainwhen somebody is changing their
way of thinking based on whatsomebody else is saying?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
When people change their beliefs, there are, you
know, neural shifts that canhappen, you know, if somebody is
able to shift into what'scalled a growth mindset, where
they're more open.
There's other names for it,like self-efficacy beliefs, but
it's some kind of belief thatyou're capable of developing or
doing something, making thechange you want to make.
And when people are able to dothat already, there's different
(09:43):
processing happening in certainregions of the brain that have
to do with being more open toactually taking in the
information and making use of it.
You can't make a change withoutchanging your brain.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
How much of our communication is really
nonverbal?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, humans are amazing at picking up on these
cues that are.
They might even be unconscious,you know, not just nonverbal,
but I would actually say, evenwithin the verbal there's so
much that's not about the words,right.
There's the tone of voice,there's the sarcasm, there's
even whether you're matchingsomebody's accent a little bit
(10:19):
right.
There's so many subtle waysthat we communicate this.
And anyone who is conscious ofcode switching in different
conversations will knowconsciously about some of the
shifts that we make in order tofit in or to not fit in or to
show who we are.
But even when you're notconscious of it, we all do it.
But then, certainly in terms ofnonverbals, and one of the
robust findings that's shown upover time is that when people
(10:41):
are in sync whether it's bodyposture, movement, rhythm,
breathing, tone of voice whenthey're in sync in some way and
it can be conceptual things too,like we feel like we're on the
same team but when they're insync they tend to feel there's a
greater rapport, that we sortof click and there's this trust,
this openness to listen.
And when people are not in syncnon-verbally, then they tend to
(11:05):
have less rapport.
It's not 100% of the time, butit's a tendency that kind of
shows up.
One thing I can add to that isthat you can never know what any
one non-verbal means, and Ithink that's a mistake that
people will sometimes make.
Crossing the arms does notalways mean that someone feels
like they're putting distancebetween you, but what it does
mean is that something hashappened.
So I would encourage people tonotice oh, something nonverbal
(11:27):
just happened and get curiouswhat is that?
Why does something just shift?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, the nonverbal communication is fascinating to
me because I feel like somepeople naturally are just great
at it.
Like I'm sure you know, youstudy this.
If somebody walks into a roomand they just command attention,
naturally people sort of flockto them.
What is it that they are doing,Like?
How can we all learn from thatsituation?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
So first of all, I love the way you phrased that
question.
If there is somebody who doesthat, we can learn it.
So that's one of these kind ofpresuppositions of NLP,
neurolinguistic programming, andthe reason for that is because
we can try to understand theirmental model.
So that person has certainbeliefs about who they are and
whether they belong and so forththat are going to influence and
(12:17):
what the rules are right andthat's going to influence how
they stand, how they interact,how they show up, who they look
at right.
So those things will influenceit.
They also have certainbehaviors.
We can learn to say okay, I likethe way that person sort of
walks in the room and pauses,let me try to do that.
Or they look around thinking whodo I want to talk to?
(12:37):
Right, and you can read it onsomebody's face often.
But even if you can't imaginegoing into a room with that
attitude, your nonverbals willbe different in those two cases
in terms of who you look at,whether you stand up straight or
whether you're slouched, andalso your body posture affects
your own emotional state or itcan.
So what I would say is picturethat person in your mind and
(13:01):
then maybe it's you in certaincontexts and not in others, but
really unpack that, let's dothat, and that's that's kind of
at.
The essence of NLP also islet's model people and discover
what it is that they're doingthat we might want to learn from
, and in this case, the thingsthat could influence them owning
the room like that could betheir identity, their beliefs,
(13:22):
their values, their capabilities, their behaviors, you know, or
even how they interact with theenvironment, where they show up
and when.
So there's so many things thatwe could learn to unpack, and I
think, once you unpack that,anybody could then take those
pieces and find elements thatwould work for them.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
If anybody did take those elements.
So let's say that somebody waslacking in a bit of confidence
and they tended to sort ofslouch their shoulders a little
bit.
Are you saying that if theywere to model the behavior and
actually like stand more erectwith their shoulders down and
back, that they would feel moreconfident or exude more
(14:00):
confidence, or both?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Probably both, and I would certainly encourage them
to experiment with that, andwhen I say experiment, it's
because, ultimately, whatevermeaning it has for you can be
different, so for one personthey might feel like they're
fake and for another person theymight feel relaxed, right, and
so that's an importantdistinction, which is why I also
(14:23):
would encourage them not justto take on the posture and I do
think typically it would besomething where your posture is
relatively straight, your hipsare back, your head is up, you
tend to be looking at the personyou're speaking with most of
the time but I would alsoencourage them to really think
about these beliefs that they'rewalking in with and how they're
thinking about themselves, andto kind of explore this question
(14:44):
before they walk in.
You know, what do I want to getout of this Now?
What do they think of me, orwho do I want to talk to, or
what's interesting to me, orwhat would I like to learn that
a lot of times, when we don'texude that confidence, we're
very caught up worrying aboutwhat others think, and when we
shift our focus on to what wehave to bring to the table, a
(15:06):
lot of the posture stuff follows.
So, while I would coach them todo some of those postural
things or at least to play withit, not 100% of the time, but to
play with it.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I would also want to empower them with these beliefs
that will make it flow naturally, make those postural movements
fit what you're saying, which isjust to think more about like
what is it that I want, what amI bringing to the table, and
(15:47):
make it more about themselves.
But they are lacking in thatability.
Do you have any suggestions orideas to help them break through
?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah Well, can you?
It's interesting, you saythey're lacking in that ability,
so I want to ask more.
Do you have a specific thing inmind?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I'm thinking of teenagers only mainly because I
have one and so I see this agegroup develop and I'm very
observant when I see bodylanguage in the teens.
It's very easy to see whenthey're lacking in self-esteem
or self-worth or confidence, andit can be so drastic from one
day to the next.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, well, it's interesting.
So, you know, we often say topeople you should, just, you
know you need to be moreconfident.
But how do you just be moreconfident?
Right, you can enter the systemanywhere.
You can make bodily changes,you can make thought changes,
you know, feeling changes, goalchanges in kind of in a therapy
setting and this is somethingthat you'll see in many forms of
therapies, but certainly in NLP.
You find it all over the placethat you know we live in these
(16:46):
social systems, and unlessyou're addressing the system and
what's stopping you, thenyou're never going to actually
make the change.
There is something pushing back,and in this case, a teenager is
at risk of not being cool,right, and so if they come
across and they're suddenlystanding differently than all
their friends, right, that's oneof the signals, at least in
(17:09):
many American groups.
I don't know if this is global,but if it's not working, then
it's just okay.
Let's get curious why not?
Or how can we build on it, orwhat else would have to shift to
enable it?
You know, when I teach publicspeaking, one of the things that
often comes up is I'llencourage people.
And this is just at the end, youknow, once they've done all the
important stuff, but toexperiment with just behaving in
(17:30):
some ways that are, you know,more extreme than they might
have otherwise.
Right, and they're just like,oh my God, like I must have
looked ridiculous, right, or itmust've been so obvious, and to
the audience it was like eitherI didn't notice, right, or no.
It's just like a different sideof you.
I liked it, it just made itmore interesting, and so it's
not actually as risky as many ofus fear.
(17:50):
While people do notice it andpick up on it, it's also not as
risky because they make sense ofit and they don't just see you
in that moment.
They have a larger context foryou, and if they don't have a
larger context for you, then itdoesn't matter.
Then they can just think of youas confident.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah.
So with your book, theDifference that Makes a
Difference, what are you hoping?
What do you want to see thisbook do?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I love NLP.
I have so much fun teaching itand using it myself, and using
it myself.
There's so much morepossibility to change and to
take on new skills than I thinkmany of us realize and to even
enjoy the process.
You know, I'm someone who Ireally did not like writing.
I avoided it.
I really I you could maybe evensay I hated it until in my mid
(18:34):
thirties.
And now I love writing and I'vewritten a couple of books and
one of them was an internationalbestseller.
This one, hopefully, will betoo.
You know it's coming out inJuly.
Like I enjoy the process.
So it's a different experiencethan it used to be.
Like these kinds of changes canhappen.
We all have had these majorshifts and it's just like.
I know it's possible.
I've seen it so many times,I've gotten to be part of it so
(18:55):
many times, you know, inteaching NLP and so so this
stuff, there's a lot of peoplewho aren't going to do the work
to take it and translate it intotheir own lives, but it
absolutely can be.
So we've tried to make it veryaccessible and say you know,
here's the idea, even if youdon't have an NLP background.
Here's the tools, here's thebeliefs, broken down like one by
one, how you can use it.
You know, reflect on thesequestions and you're using it
(19:18):
already.
You know, so you can be thenapplying it outside of a
therapeutic context.
I just think a lot more peopleshould know about it.
I think because of myconnections to research, I'm
able to present it to people ina way where they can see it as
like oh OK, yeah, sure, there'snothing weird about it, it's
just like there's reasonablestuff like it.
It should work in most contexts.
(19:38):
Let me try it.
A lot of it is new for people.
You know there's tons ofself-help and change and
development stuff out there, butI think a lot of it's new
because because of what it comesfrom, because it's 50 years of
time-tested psychotherapy tools,but also because of this
linguistic perspective on it andalso because it provides the
tool of modeling.
So I'm hoping that this, justlike you know, I want to reach
(19:59):
as many people as I can with itand then they can just start
making the changes they want tomake.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
What kind of changes can they make?
I mean, is this anything andeverything, or is this
particularly self-limitingbeliefs and that kind of a
change?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I mean there's certain physical limitations,
right, I'm not going to ever beon a professional sports team.
You know, I'm too old, it'sjust not going to ever be on a
professional sports team.
I'm too old, it's just notgoing to happen.
No-transcript difference.
(20:50):
Yeah, some of it's going to beabout limiting beliefs.
Some of it, you know, Imentioned writing.
That's a creative skill.
That was through modeling andthen getting to a point where
you're able to approach goalsmore effectively, planning ahead
, where you can kind of manageyour emotions.
You know I have friends whowill say it's like well, I don't
want to just try to like, thinkit away, think away my problem,
(21:11):
that's not serving you.
If you do that, it's all aboutwhat would serve you.
Feel bad if you want thatserves you, sometimes right, but
learn to use it.
Learn to use it so that youbecome very effective very
quickly, you know, and that youdon't feel bad all the time.
I don't see limits to what youcould do in any meaningful
context, what you could changewith it.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
So for myself and also for listeners, can you give
us an example, something withmore context and kind of walk us
through, like what the persondid to actually use NLP to head
towards their goal?
So it could be anything.
I mean, you know what's thenumber one thing that Americans
suffer from is stress.
So do you have an example youcan give us so we can more
(21:56):
clearly understand themethodology?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, yeah, sure, one of the ones that Greg offers in
the book is, you know, he'stalking to a member of a jury
who's believes that just nolawyers can be trusted, and so
he explores that.
He hears this in the languageyou know, like lawyers cannot be
trusted none.
And so he starts to explore,like okay, well, is it really
true?
None, ever, you know.
(22:19):
And then can we agree, maybe,like, what about lawyers who are
, you know, working pro bono orwho are, you know, trying to
serve certain populations, youknow, and they're not getting
paid very well?
You know, public defenders, youknow, are they greedy and just
doing it?
You know it's like, well, no,so so we can agree that some
lawyers are not, even if not.
So he's then moved from thisuniversal quantifier all every
(22:39):
right, and when people have thatin mind, it tends to be a
limiting belief Every all,always, never right.
And so he helps to just whittleit down to what is almost
necessarily more accurate, thatthere are some counterexamples.
And then he's still you know,he's still got to ask the guy to
take on faith that he might notbe, but he's just like so would
it be okay to be open to theidea he's not asking him to
believe it, but would it be okayto be open to the idea that I
(23:01):
am one of those lawyers who'snot just greedy and the guy's
like, okay, you know.
So, recognizing that beliefchange is seldom like a sudden
jump, but for other kinds ofchanges we're happy to make
steps.
Why not beliefs?
So a belief change, the form ofa belief change this would be.
Another NLP thing is that peopletend to start by becoming open
(23:21):
to doubting.
Then they might move tobecoming open to believing, then
they might move to believing,but it's seldom that they'll
just jump straight frombelieving one thing to believing
another thing.
Right, and so often your firststep is to invite people to
become open to doubting.
Or for a time, would you beopen to acting as if you
believed this, just to see whathappened?
And a lot of times people arewilling.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
To be open.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Maybe convincing somebody to be open is an
additional challenge.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Convincing someone to be open is itself.
And so there, meet them wherethey are before you try to get
them to follow.
We call it pacing and leadingKind of go at their pace and
then lead them to wherever youare.
Go at their pace and then leadthem to wherever you are.
So if somebody is, you know,saying we should be, you know,
increasing income tax, and otherperson says we should decrease
it, so how do you get them to beopen?
(24:10):
So if one person is really like, kind of like, got a lot of
energy behind it and they'reangry, and you're trying to go
the other way and you're justbeing like, and you're trying to
be like really calm andreserved, another outside
observer might look at that andbe like oh well, the calm person
is what I'm going to listen to,because their emotions are not
clouding their judgment.
But if you're trying to talk tothe person who's really
(24:30):
emotional and you're doing that,you're communicating to them
non-verbally.
I am nothing like you.
I do not get where you'recoming from.
Your emotions have nojustification, right?
You're just basically shuttingthem down in every way you can.
So you know, when somebody isdoing that to you, do you like
you want to shout louder to likeyou're like no, you need to
hear this, right, it doesn't getyou to calm down.
(24:51):
So meet them where they are,have some energy about it,
acknowledge how frustrating itis Like, talk about how it makes
sense that they would be so mad.
Meet them there, start to formthat connection, start to build
that like, get in sync, buildthat rapport and then lead them
towards.
You know, and that's why wemaybe want to look at some other
(25:12):
options too, right, you know,maybe they're so entrenched you
won't get anywhere.
But you might get them to beopen to doubting, or at least
open to not needing to be angryat you about it, right, and you
can have more of a rationaldiscussion about it afterwards.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
One person is more or less the one who's in charge of
leading the change, though, orwho is maybe the leader or, more
open minded, the one who is thebigger person, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
In NLP, we would say that the person who is most
flexible is the one who's likelyto have the most influence,
which is a littlecounterintuitive, because
there's certain physical systemswhere you think like, if I'm
belligerent, aren't I going toget my way?
Everybody has to bend to me.
You know, maybe there's a fewexamples where, like a one-time
(26:02):
thing, you get your way, butthen it's all this like fallout.
You know, but in most contexts,the person with the most
flexibility is going to exertthe most influence.
So, if I'm able to be flexiblein terms of meeting you where
you are, or I'm able to beflexible in terms of I thought I
was going to need to be gettingyou to believe something.
Now I'm just going to begetting you to be open to
believing something.
If I can try six different waysof making a change, I probably
(26:25):
have a better odds than if I canonly try one way.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
So, in the years that you've been doing this, are
there patterns of changes thatyou see people wanting to make
using NLP?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Well, it's interesting, I hadn't thought
about that.
One category has to do with abig goal that you know I want to
write a book or do something inmy career.
Another category has to do withfamily relationships, you know,
repairing something or movingpast something that's really
been getting in the way, withkids or parents or siblings or
something like that, or partnerlike that or partner.
(27:02):
Another category has to do withhealing the past that are
getting in the way.
Now they're no longer servingthem, but it's patterns that
they've learned or beliefs theyhave.
Those are three kind of reallybig chunks.
I guess it's basically work,relationships and health.
Essentially is sort of whatI've just tapped into.
Which are the three categoriesof change usually that you'll
see in books on this stuff.
It's not a tool that's justlimited to one thing.
(27:24):
You know, even just wheneverthere's a resistance issue
whether it's internal resistanceI'm resisting doing something
or external resistance I'm in anegotiation or something like
that there's this wonderful toolfrom NLP which is to search for
the positive intention behindthe resistance.
So you presume that there isthe positive intention behind
the resistance.
So you presume that there is apositive intention behind it
(27:45):
first of all, which is an ahafor many people that there is
always not just sometimes.
There is always a positiveintention, that every behavior
has a positive intention.
Even when someone's being ajerk, they are trying to get
something out of it.
A bully often can make friendswith other bullies or can try to
make themselves feel better,right, or to patch up a hole in
(28:06):
their self-worth by bullying.
It doesn't work very well forthem usually.
It often makes it worse, butthat's what they're trying to do
.
It's the positive intention.
So, if you're looking for thatpositive intention, that's the
thing that needs to be addressedto move past the resistance.
So, as long as you can find asatisfying way to address that
positive intention while makingsome change it might not be
(28:28):
exactly the change you had inmind at first, but it might be
but then you are so much morelikely to either move past the
internal resistance or theexternal resistance.
What I try to do, then, is tospeak to that positive intention
.
If your knowledge of that wherethey're trying to get to you
can have more compassion whenyou speak with them, you are
less likely to get riled up.
(28:49):
You are more likely to be ableto talk about what matters to
them.
You're more likely to be ableto couch your suggestions in
terms of what matters to them,right.
You're more likely to be ableto empathize and be there to
support them.
When they're not makingprogress on that, right.
You're more likely to say Ialso want to make progress on
this, and I think you're morelikely to make progress on it.
(29:09):
If you do this, instead ofbelittling people, it just opens
up all those possibilities Ifthey feel like they can't get
this positive intention met.
That's a major source ofresistance.
That's that internal system wewere talking about before.
It's just like that's going tokeep pushing back A lot of times
.
I find people actually knowthat their behavior is
inappropriate or harmful, butthey do it because it's the best
(29:31):
way they know how, given theircurrent understanding and set of
beliefs and skills and so forth.
That's another NLPpresupposition.
We invite people to always justkind of act as if it's always
true.
People always behave in thebest way they know how, given
the context and thecircumstances.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
So, like, what about, even in just one time, first
time ever, interactionconversation?
Is this a tool that you use inthose circumstances, or is this
mainly for the development ofrelationships that are longer
lasting?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I guess when I'm teaching I'll often have
situations where I'm meetingpeople for the the first time
and then I very much I go inwith very much have this in mind
, and so if anybody asks aquestion, I'm looking for the
positive intention behind it andI think it helps me to speak to
the question more effectivelyand not get annoyed with them if
it's like a question that'sjust been asked or something
like that.
Right, if I'm not teaching, Ihaven't just mentally prepared
(30:24):
myself for that and so I don'talways have it top of mind.
You know, and with the kids allday long, they do something.
It'd be really great for me tohave that in mind 100% of the
time, but I don't always.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Can you give us a peek into your classroom?
So what's an example of alesson or an assignment that you
might give to your students,your students.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Oh, yeah, sure.
So let's say you're in sales,right, and you're going to be
presenting.
A lot of times we we go into itwithout really having thought
through explicitly how we wantto evaluate ourselves.
And there's one thing is like Iwant to get the sale Well, the
sale is not in your control,like getting the sale, and so if
(31:03):
it's just getting the sale well, it's like okay, well, or maybe
I want them to have a goodexperience.
How are you going to possiblyknow if they had a good
experience?
Sometimes it's obvious, right,but a lot of times you can't
even really know, and people canhave a wonderful experience
without showing it.
So we want to shift towardsexpectations that are much more
appropriate for you being ableto both know that you're moving
(31:23):
ahead and evaluate yourselfappropriately, because part of
what happens is one of thefounders of NLP said this
disappointment takes adequateplanning.
So you have to have expectedsomething to happen and it
didn't to be disappointed.
And so often we come out ofthese meetings and we feel
disappointed, but why?
It's often not appropriate orit's something we can't put our
(31:44):
finger on, and we don't have todo that to ourselves.
We can be much more thoughtfulabout what we're going in with.
Let's say, I'm teaching a class.
I'll often find that I would bedisappointed if they don't love
me, right, okay, but is thatwhat I'm doing it for?
You know, it's like sure,everybody loves adoration.
I, you know I'm.
I'm happy with adoration, but,like, that's not, certainly not
the only thing I'm doing it for,unless I pause and check myself
(32:06):
and say wait a second, whatwould be a more useful thing for
me to expect out of this?
Well, whether or not they loveme is something I'll never know
and it's not in my control.
But what is in my control is tomake sure that I present this
tool let's say this tool aboutexpectations in a way that
everybody really understands thelogic behind it and how to use
it, and I give a really gooddemonstration, right.
(32:28):
So that could be what I want toexpect myself.
If I do that, I'm happy and ofcourse, anybody can see I'm more
likely to succeed in gettingthem to love me.
If I do that right, it's likebecause I'm going to teach
better, but it's not on my mindanymore.
It's like it's about that, andthen I also can feel really good
about the teaching and my mindis focused on the right thing.
So one of the things I'llinvite people to do then is I'll
(32:49):
give them several like toolsthat I've developed that help
them very quickly identify whatexpectations am I showing up
with and what would be moreuseful expectations to have.
Like, how do I shift thosepertaining to myself, pertaining
to what the audience is goingto get out of this, pertaining
to like just things that mightmake me feel like I'm
disappointed that I haven'treally checked, you know?
And then they work ondiscovering those and setting
(33:13):
more effective ones.
So that would be an example ofsomething that I'll do in a
class.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
And then, when you said expectations, I was
wondering is this also part ofthe NLP model?
So like is lowering one'sexpectations actually a useful
tool?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Ah, right, so I don't think so, but there are
contexts where I do think so,and I would say that is
different from the idea ofsetting more useful expectations
, because lowering theexpectations, I think, has to do
with not expecting as muchsuccess, as opposed to shifting
your focus to what do I want toget out of this, or what do I
(33:50):
want to learn, or what am Itrying to accomplish.
I personally don't think that Icould manage to have 30
business development calls withnew contacts in a month, right.
And if I lower that expectationto four new business
development calls, like new,like high quality leads, in a
(34:10):
month, well, that's smart.
In my case, it's more within mycontrol, right.
So that's a context where justlowering it actually makes a lot
of good sense, because I'mfinding something that's more
appropriate.
Now there's there's times whenhaving something outrageous as
your goal is fine, because onsome level you have that
self-efficacy, that belief thatyou are going to find a way, and
it kind of energizes you, right, because it's all about the
(34:33):
mental model, how it's servingyou.
So in those contexts, sure, gofor it.
In many contexts that wouldn'twork.
No matter what you're doing,the key is what is useful, right
.
If you would be disappointedbecause something turned out and
it wasn't actually the thingthat you wanted to be focused on
, change your expectation, right.
If it's not going to serve you,if it's not going to motivate
(34:53):
you in the right ways, you know,then change that expectation.
That's the real critical, notlowering it.
Yeah, that can be an instanceof making it more useful, but
that's going to be onlysometimes.
What's going to be onlysometimes.
What's going to be more useful,is the key.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
So you work as a teacher, you also run a business
, right, right.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
So, which is a vehicle for teaching, so it's
they're not disconnected.
Yeah, so the Science-BasedLeadership Institute is my
business, and there I'm reallyfocused on taking a principle
from psychology or neuroscience,teaching it, and then how can
you apply it In terms of theexperience of a student?
(35:31):
Very much, I'm still trying todo the same thing where, let's
say, we are talking aboutexpectations.
There is a good deal of overlapbetween the two.
There's many things that I willteach, but I'll go into a
little bit more about thescience of it as a way of
motivating it and, therefore,what we should do, and I think
that speaks to a lot of peoplewho want to know that.
You know, this is logical.
(35:53):
This stuff is really kind oflike OK, yeah, it makes sense.
This is true on average formost people.
I always want to do just enough,though, of that to get people
to understand what we're doingand why, and then it's really
about let's apply it to yourchallenges and actually make
some changes right now on thethings that you're working on,
that you're struggling with,like today.
Make some change that may belasting.
That may be the difference thatmakes the difference for the
(36:14):
rest of your life.
I've had experiences like that.
I know we all have hadexperiences.
One day something does changeand it lasts, even if for years
it didn't.
So what is that difference?
And I think NLP and a lot ofthese science-based tools can
get you there a lot faster.
So Science-Based LeadershipInstitute is what we're doing.
There is teaching, but it's ina corporate context.
(36:35):
When it comes to the NLP stuff,some of the things that Greg
and I and some others are doingis we're specifically taking it
and doing NLP for lawyers, forexample, or NLP for financial
advisors, like reallyspecifically, hey, let's apply
it in your context.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
This is a lot to absorb, it's a lot to learn and
to understand.
It's a very deep way ofthinking.
That's brilliant that you'redoing it that way, because then
it makes it so clear andprobably easier to grasp the
concepts.
So just to wrap up a little bithere if you could go back and
have a conversation withyourself when you were in your
(37:11):
early twenties, what would yousay?
What life wisdom would youimpart?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I would say you're doing the best you know how
right now, given thecircumstances and your abilities
right now.
Love yourself, enjoy it, trythings out.
I think one of the main reasonswould be so that Josh could let
go of feeling embarrassed aboutprevious years as we go.
If you get better at anything,you're better than you were, or
(37:39):
at least you have differentvalues.
So just free him of some ofthat burden by understanding,
and really it's.
If you knew then what you knew,then you would do it exactly
the same, necessarily.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
And that's okay.
Yeah, it's like have compassionfor yourself, not just others,
but for yourself too.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, and I think it'll probably follow that
you'll have more compassion forothers as a result.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, josh, thank you so much for coming on today and
chatting with us.
I don't know if there'sanything else that you would
like to share with where peoplecan connect with you.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
I mean in terms of websites, there's
nlpdifferencecom and there'ssciencebasedleadershipcom and
you can sign up for ournewsletters at either one.
At Science Based Leadership,there's Brain Basics for
Business is kind of the formatfor that, and.
But there's Brain Basics forBusiness is kind of the format
for that.
And at the NLP Difference, it'sabout how do I make use of NLP
tools in my day-to-day life.
So the book is called theDifference.
(38:34):
That Makes a Difference.
It's July 8th release and reachout.
I would love to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Today's key takeaways .
Influence begins with openness.
Before you try to persuade orshare an idea, pause and ask is
the other person open to hearingthis?
We can't force someone to thinkor feel a certain way, but we
can earn the right to be heardby building connection first.
(39:01):
Communication is so much morethan words.
Tone, rhythm, body language,even subtle cues like matching
someone's speech patterns theyall shape how your message is
received.
We feel more trust when we'rein sync, even in the small ways.
A nonverbal cue like crossedarms doesn't always mean what
(39:22):
you think.
Verbal cue like crossed armsdoesn't always mean what you
think.
Instead of jumping toconclusions, get curious.
What might have caused thatshift?
Confidence can start with yourbody.
Try to stand tall shouldersback and take a full breath.
You might be surprised.
Not only may others perceiveyou differently, but you may
(39:44):
actually feel different too.
Posture can influence emotion,and if that doesn't quite do it
for you, stay curious and open.
Keep experimenting withdifferent confidence-boosting
tools.
Notice the people who seemnaturally confident.
What are they doing?
Could you try a version of thatyourself?
(40:06):
If someone else can do it, youcan learn it.
Josh reminded us that modelingstudying how others move, think
and behave is a powerful way togrow.
What beliefs or behaviors couldyou try on and adapt to make
your own?
When in doubt, shift the focus.
Confidence often disappearswhen we're stuck wondering what
(40:29):
others think of us.
Instead, try asking who do Iwant to connect with?
What excites me here?
What do I have to offer?
Saying I should or I must can belimiting.
Reframe those thoughts into Iwant to or I choose to.
(40:50):
It's a simple change that opensup freedom and ownership.
You are not your emotions.
Feeling nervous, anxious.
That's a part of you, not allof you.
Let your confident self takethe lead.
Emotions are signals, not youridentity.
Look for the positive intentionbehind resistance, whether it's
(41:14):
internal hesitation or externalconflict.
Ask what positive purpose mightthis behavior be trying to
serve?
This shift in mindset opens thedoor to compassion and real
change.
Disappointment often comes fromunspoken or unrealistic
(41:34):
expectations.
So check in.
What am I expecting from thissituation?
Is that useful Flexibility canimpact influence.
The person who is mostadaptable is often the most
influential.
Not because they overpower, butbecause they stay curious,
(41:55):
adjust and keep moving forward.
And lastly, you're doing yourbest with what you know right
now.
Be gentle with yourself andyour past self.
Growth means we evolve, andthat's something to celebrate,
not regret.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
(42:15):
Have a great day.
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McGinty, your host,and today's episode is not so
much about starting a businessbut a glimpse into the
neuroscience of influence andthe power of neuro-linguistic
programming.
And the power ofneuro-linguistic programming.
(00:29):
My guest is Dr Josh Davis, phdin psychology and neuroscience
from Columbia University.
He's the internationalbest-selling author of Two
Awesome Hours and has anupcoming title the Difference
that Makes the Difference.
Josh is the founder of theScience-Based Leadership
Institute, a sought-afterkeynote speaker.
Josh is the founder of theScience-Based Leadership
Institute, a sought-afterkeynote speaker, and his writing
has appeared in HarvardBusiness Review, fast Company,
(00:50):
psychology Today, inc.
And more.
In this interview, we explorethe fascinating world of
neuro-linguistic programming,what it is, how it can help us
connect, communicate moreeffectively, lead with greater
empathy and shift self-limitingbeliefs.
You'll find links to connectwith Josh in the episode's
(01:11):
description.
Neurolinguistic programminglike.
Can you just for anybody who isnot familiar with it, can you
just please explain it to us alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
So neuro-linguistic programming is a set of best
practices that come frompsychotherapies that are very
good at helping people makechanges quickly and in lasting
ways, and a lot of the tools canbe applied in day-to-day
context where you're not doingtherapy but you're still wanting
to make some change to how youthink, feel or act.
And it began 50 years ago.
(01:45):
There were a whole bunch of newtherapies at the time cognitive
therapy, gestalt therapy,family therapy, hypnotherapy and
so you know these therapistsare getting results much quicker
, and so a lot of therapists atthe time, including my parents
wanted to understand what'sgoing on, and the typical way of
going about it was to just goand try to observe and copy what
these great pioneers were doing.
So in NLP, the people who wentto study some of these great
(02:10):
pioneers were a linguist and apartner of his, so they were
coming at it with a languagelens to unpacking the form, not
just the content.
So instead of just trying tocopy, you know, say this or do
this in this context, theylooked at both verbal and
nonverbal patterns in thetherapist and in the patients
and went around teaching it, andit was very effective.
(02:31):
One of the reasons was thatthey also really the most
important piece that sets itapart is that they taught people
the process that they used forlearning what these patterns
(02:52):
were, which is called modeling.
So how do you unpack somebody'smental model for what they're
doing?
So how do we unpack a mentalmodel?
There's so much here, and thisis kind of the core of what
somebody who does NLP is doingis they're approaching an
interaction, thinking aboutwhat's this person's mental
model right?
How can I understand it?
Right?
So some of the things come outin language and you don't need
(03:14):
to be thinking oh no, I have towatch everything I'm going to
say.
It's not like that, it's.
Here's an example.
I think that makes it seem muchmore obvious or approachable.
There are many things that wesay that reflect what can be
limiting beliefs.
You'll hear me say frequentlyit could mean this or it can be
this.
That's a really important partof making NLP work is that you
recognize you're picking up on aclue that many times is correct
(03:36):
, but it doesn't necessarilyalways correct.
I mean, we're humans.
Nothing is going to be 100% ofthe time.
So some language patterns thatreflect limiting beliefs.
So if somebody is talking about, oh, you know what, at this
point in my life I should reallybe running my own company.
This should, should, should,should, should.
Right, okay.
So when we talk that way, itcould just be a way of talking,
(03:57):
but very often it reflects arelationship you have with the
task that involves some limitingbeliefs, relationship you have
with the task that involves somelimiting beliefs.
Albert Ellis, one of the greatcognitive therapists.
He says there are three muststhat hold us back I must do well
, you must treat me well and theworld must be easy.
Have you ever thought of thoseas limiting beliefs before?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I can see them as limiting beliefs when you say
them that way.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
yes, I can see them as limiting beliefs when you say
them that way.
Yes, so often we actually limitourselves when we're saying
this should be this way, Ishould have done this, I should,
and so if you're listening forthat, or then you might hear
that and you can get curious andyou can just kind of explore.
Someone says you know, I shouldbe doing so much more with my
kids.
Go, oh, okay, what would happenif you didn't?
And often it takes people to aninteresting place and then it's
(04:47):
like, well, you know, I'd bekind of feel like I'm missing
out, but I would have to give up.
You know, this work thing that'sso important to me and I, you
know I have a good enoughrelationship with my kid, so it
can help people get to a placewhere they're either making
peace with it or they'rechoosing a new goal, or maybe
they're choosing a newrelationship with the task.
You know what I get to do morestuff with my kids' school.
(05:09):
I want to, I can.
And then it's no longer aboutthe pressure, it's like an
opportunity.
So when you hear a certainlanguage patterns that suggests
there could be a limiting belief, you can explore it.
So that's one way to start tounpack the mental model, and
there are many more ways.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I know exactly what you're talking about.
I actually, the other night, Itried an example of this, maybe
not even realizing that, maybe Iwas using some theories from
your book, but my daughter washaving a very hard time with an
overwhelming amount of emotions,and her emotions were
controlling her.
She's nine and I pulled heraside and I just said look, you
(05:48):
are you and your emotions arenot you, but your emotions are
there and you can be in controlof your emotions or they can be
in control of you, but today isyour birthday, and so you can
choose to say okay, over tiredsadness, I see you, you're there
, but I'm not going to let youruin my birthday because I want
(06:09):
to be happy today.
And it it shifted her soinstantly, just the idea that
she could.
So is this what you're talkingabout?
When it comes to the way thatwe think of something, we can
change our whole interaction andrelationship with it solely by
the choice of words that we useand the way that we think about
(06:30):
it.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
It is possible to do that, and the words can have a
very big impact on you.
They have to influence themeaning that you make of it, but
very often they do.
It sounds like you saidmultiple things to her, so you
helped her to reframe what wasgoing on in terms of her having
choice as opposed to somethinghappening to her.
You also told her you can dothis, so that sets her mind down
(06:54):
a path of considering the waysshe can do it, because you've
presupposed it's possible and soyou don't have to ask her is it
possible?
Then she'll get stuck at thatpoint.
You jumped ahead of that.
You said you can do this, andthen you invite her to think
about how she can do it right,which is also a language pattern
that you can both spot and usein NLP, and that one comes from
hypnotherapy.
Actually, in terms of likereframing, you know what the
(07:18):
meaning is.
That's like much more of like acognitive therapy kind of thing,
and you'll find that certainlyin NLP you didn't use these
words, but I heard it this way.
Let me know, if I'm wrong thatyou know what a shame it would
be if you were to allow this tocause you to not have your
birthday.
It's like, yeah, you can be sad.
You also separated the feelingsfrom her.
(07:38):
You invited her to considerdifferent parts of herself, and
that's something that comes fromgestalt therapy.
That's an NLP where you canhave what we call parts work,
where a part of me feels thisway, a part of me feels that way
Metaphorically.
People can really have a prettyeasy time usually taking one
perspective talking to the other.
You know, separating them,having them be two separate
entities for a while until theycan reconcile, and then finding
(08:01):
a way to reconcile.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Was wondering if you could tell us what the biggest
mistakes are that people makewhen they're trying to influence
or persuade somebody else.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, one of them is that we very often get attached
to trying to make our point,whatever it is.
We believe, put a lot of energyinto trying to show that we're
right, or convince the otherperson, or speak to them on this
logical level, withoutrealizing that unless they're
open to listening, you know,that could have the opposite
(08:32):
effect.
It could come across asbelittling or as suggesting that
you don't care what they haveto say, or maybe it's just
something that they disagreewith.
Their defenses are up, but Ithink one of the biggest
mistakes is is that we don'tfirst take the time to earn the
right to be heard, because, yeah, you've got your message, but
you're not just communicating amessage.
You're communicating a messageto a person, and that person has
(08:54):
to want to listen.
You can never make someonethink something.
You can never make someone dosomething or feel something.
They do that and they have towant to, or at least be open to
it, and so I think that's athat's a big one.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
If you just make that one shift, I mean that'll
change so much.
So let's say that somebody isopen to receiving the
information that we're sharing.
What is happening in the brainwhen somebody is changing their
way of thinking based on whatsomebody else is saying?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
When people change their beliefs, there are, you
know, neural shifts that canhappen, you know, if somebody is
able to shift into what'scalled a growth mindset, where
they're more open.
There's other names for it,like self-efficacy beliefs, but
it's some kind of belief thatyou're capable of developing or
doing something, making thechange you want to make.
And when people are able to dothat already, there's different
(09:43):
processing happening in certainregions of the brain that have
to do with being more open toactually taking in the
information and making use of it.
You can't make a change withoutchanging your brain.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
How much of our communication is really
nonverbal?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, humans are amazing at picking up on these
cues that are.
They might even be unconscious,you know, not just nonverbal,
but I would actually say, evenwithin the verbal there's so
much that's not about the words,right.
There's the tone of voice,there's the sarcasm, there's
even whether you're matchingsomebody's accent a little bit
(10:19):
right.
There's so many subtle waysthat we communicate this.
And anyone who is conscious ofcode switching in different
conversations will knowconsciously about some of the
shifts that we make in order tofit in or to not fit in or to
show who we are.
But even when you're notconscious of it, we all do it.
But then, certainly in terms ofnonverbals, and one of the
robust findings that's shown upover time is that when people
(10:41):
are in sync whether it's bodyposture, movement, rhythm,
breathing, tone of voice whenthey're in sync in some way and
it can be conceptual things too,like we feel like we're on the
same team but when they're insync they tend to feel there's a
greater rapport, that we sortof click and there's this trust,
this openness to listen.
And when people are not in syncnon-verbally, then they tend to
(11:05):
have less rapport.
It's not 100% of the time, butit's a tendency that kind of
shows up.
One thing I can add to that isthat you can never know what any
one non-verbal means, and Ithink that's a mistake that
people will sometimes make.
Crossing the arms does notalways mean that someone feels
like they're putting distancebetween you, but what it does
mean is that something hashappened.
So I would encourage people tonotice oh, something nonverbal
(11:27):
just happened and get curiouswhat is that?
Why does something just shift?
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, the nonverbal communication is fascinating to
me because I feel like somepeople naturally are just great
at it.
Like I'm sure you know, youstudy this.
If somebody walks into a roomand they just command attention,
naturally people sort of flockto them.
What is it that they are doing,Like?
How can we all learn from thatsituation?
Speaker 2 (11:55):
So first of all, I love the way you phrased that
question.
If there is somebody who doesthat, we can learn it.
So that's one of these kind ofpresuppositions of NLP,
neurolinguistic programming, andthe reason for that is because
we can try to understand theirmental model.
So that person has certainbeliefs about who they are and
whether they belong and so forththat are going to influence and
(12:17):
what the rules are right andthat's going to influence how
they stand, how they interact,how they show up, who they look
at right.
So those things will influenceit.
They also have certainbehaviors.
We can learn to say okay, I likethe way that person sort of
walks in the room and pauses,let me try to do that.
Or they look around thinking whodo I want to talk to?
(12:37):
Right, and you can read it onsomebody's face often.
But even if you can't imaginegoing into a room with that
attitude, your nonverbals willbe different in those two cases
in terms of who you look at,whether you stand up straight or
whether you're slouched, andalso your body posture affects
your own emotional state or itcan.
So what I would say is picturethat person in your mind and
(13:01):
then maybe it's you in certaincontexts and not in others, but
really unpack that, let's dothat, and that's that's kind of
at.
The essence of NLP also islet's model people and discover
what it is that they're doingthat we might want to learn from
, and in this case, the thingsthat could influence them owning
the room like that could betheir identity, their beliefs,
(13:22):
their values, their capabilities, their behaviors, you know, or
even how they interact with theenvironment, where they show up
and when.
So there's so many things thatwe could learn to unpack, and I
think, once you unpack that,anybody could then take those
pieces and find elements thatwould work for them.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
If anybody did take those elements.
So let's say that somebody waslacking in a bit of confidence
and they tended to sort ofslouch their shoulders a little
bit.
Are you saying that if theywere to model the behavior and
actually like stand more erectwith their shoulders down and
back, that they would feel moreconfident or exude more
(14:00):
confidence, or both?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Probably both, and I would certainly encourage them
to experiment with that, andwhen I say experiment, it's
because, ultimately, whatevermeaning it has for you can be
different, so for one personthey might feel like they're
fake and for another person theymight feel relaxed, right, and
so that's an importantdistinction, which is why I also
(14:23):
would encourage them not justto take on the posture and I do
think typically it would besomething where your posture is
relatively straight, your hipsare back, your head is up, you
tend to be looking at the personyou're speaking with most of
the time but I would alsoencourage them to really think
about these beliefs that they'rewalking in with and how they're
thinking about themselves, andto kind of explore this question
(14:44):
before they walk in.
You know, what do I want to getout of this Now?
What do they think of me, orwho do I want to talk to, or
what's interesting to me, orwhat would I like to learn that
a lot of times, when we don'texude that confidence, we're
very caught up worrying aboutwhat others think, and when we
shift our focus on to what wehave to bring to the table, a
(15:06):
lot of the posture stuff follows.
So, while I would coach them todo some of those postural
things or at least to play withit, not 100% of the time, but to
play with it.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I would also want to empower them with these beliefs
that will make it flow naturally, make those postural movements
fit what you're saying, which isjust to think more about like
what is it that I want, what amI bringing to the table, and
(15:47):
make it more about themselves.
But they are lacking in thatability.
Do you have any suggestions orideas to help them break through
?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah Well, can you?
It's interesting, you saythey're lacking in that ability,
so I want to ask more.
Do you have a specific thing inmind?
Speaker 1 (16:02):
I'm thinking of teenagers only mainly because I
have one and so I see this agegroup develop and I'm very
observant when I see bodylanguage in the teens.
It's very easy to see whenthey're lacking in self-esteem
or self-worth or confidence, andit can be so drastic from one
day to the next.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, well, it's interesting.
So, you know, we often say topeople you should, just, you
know you need to be moreconfident.
But how do you just be moreconfident?
Right, you can enter the systemanywhere.
You can make bodily changes,you can make thought changes,
you know, feeling changes, goalchanges in kind of in a therapy
setting and this is somethingthat you'll see in many forms of
therapies, but certainly in NLP.
You find it all over the placethat you know we live in these
(16:46):
social systems, and unlessyou're addressing the system and
what's stopping you, thenyou're never going to actually
make the change.
There is something pushing back,and in this case, a teenager is
at risk of not being cool,right, and so if they come
across and they're suddenlystanding differently than all
their friends, right, that's oneof the signals, at least in
(17:09):
many American groups.
I don't know if this is global,but if it's not working, then
it's just okay.
Let's get curious why not?
Or how can we build on it, orwhat else would have to shift to
enable it?
You know, when I teach publicspeaking, one of the things that
often comes up is I'llencourage people.
And this is just at the end, youknow, once they've done all the
important stuff, but toexperiment with just behaving in
(17:30):
some ways that are, you know,more extreme than they might
have otherwise.
Right, and they're just like,oh my God, like I must have
looked ridiculous, right, or itmust've been so obvious, and to
the audience it was like eitherI didn't notice, right, or no.
It's just like a different sideof you.
I liked it, it just made itmore interesting, and so it's
not actually as risky as many ofus fear.
(17:50):
While people do notice it andpick up on it, it's also not as
risky because they make sense ofit and they don't just see you
in that moment.
They have a larger context foryou, and if they don't have a
larger context for you, then itdoesn't matter.
Then they can just think of youas confident.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah.
So with your book, theDifference that Makes a
Difference, what are you hoping?
What do you want to see thisbook do?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I love NLP.
I have so much fun teaching itand using it myself, and using
it myself.
There's so much morepossibility to change and to
take on new skills than I thinkmany of us realize and to even
enjoy the process.
You know, I'm someone who Ireally did not like writing.
I avoided it.
I really I you could maybe evensay I hated it until in my mid
(18:34):
thirties.
And now I love writing and I'vewritten a couple of books and
one of them was an internationalbestseller.
This one, hopefully, will betoo.
You know it's coming out inJuly.
Like I enjoy the process.
So it's a different experiencethan it used to be.
Like these kinds of changes canhappen.
We all have had these majorshifts and it's just like.
I know it's possible.
I've seen it so many times,I've gotten to be part of it so
(18:55):
many times, you know, inteaching NLP and so so this
stuff, there's a lot of peoplewho aren't going to do the work
to take it and translate it intotheir own lives, but it
absolutely can be.
So we've tried to make it veryaccessible and say you know,
here's the idea, even if youdon't have an NLP background.
Here's the tools, here's thebeliefs, broken down like one by
one, how you can use it.
You know, reflect on thesequestions and you're using it
(19:18):
already.
You know, so you can be thenapplying it outside of a
therapeutic context.
I just think a lot more peopleshould know about it.
I think because of myconnections to research, I'm
able to present it to people ina way where they can see it as
like oh OK, yeah, sure, there'snothing weird about it, it's
just like there's reasonablestuff like it.
It should work in most contexts.
(19:38):
Let me try it.
A lot of it is new for people.
You know there's tons ofself-help and change and
development stuff out there, butI think a lot of it's new
because because of what it comesfrom, because it's 50 years of
time-tested psychotherapy tools,but also because of this
linguistic perspective on it andalso because it provides the
tool of modeling.
So I'm hoping that this, justlike you know, I want to reach
(19:59):
as many people as I can with itand then they can just start
making the changes they want tomake.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
What kind of changes can they make?
I mean, is this anything andeverything, or is this
particularly self-limitingbeliefs and that kind of a
change?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I mean there's certain physical limitations,
right, I'm not going to ever beon a professional sports team.
You know, I'm too old, it'sjust not going to ever be on a
professional sports team.
I'm too old, it's just notgoing to happen.
No-transcript difference.
(20:50):
Yeah, some of it's going to beabout limiting beliefs.
Some of it, you know, Imentioned writing.
That's a creative skill.
That was through modeling andthen getting to a point where
you're able to approach goalsmore effectively, planning ahead
, where you can kind of manageyour emotions.
You know I have friends whowill say it's like well, I don't
want to just try to like, thinkit away, think away my problem,
(21:11):
that's not serving you.
If you do that, it's all aboutwhat would serve you.
Feel bad if you want thatserves you, sometimes right, but
learn to use it.
Learn to use it so that youbecome very effective very
quickly, you know, and that youdon't feel bad all the time.
I don't see limits to what youcould do in any meaningful
context, what you could changewith it.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
So for myself and also for listeners, can you give
us an example, something withmore context and kind of walk us
through, like what the persondid to actually use NLP to head
towards their goal?
So it could be anything.
I mean, you know what's thenumber one thing that Americans
suffer from is stress.
So do you have an example youcan give us so we can more
(21:56):
clearly understand themethodology?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, yeah, sure, one of the ones that Greg offers in
the book is, you know, he'stalking to a member of a jury
who's believes that just nolawyers can be trusted, and so
he explores that.
He hears this in the languageyou know, like lawyers cannot be
trusted none.
And so he starts to explore,like okay, well, is it really
true?
None, ever, you know.
(22:19):
And then can we agree, maybe,like, what about lawyers who are
, you know, working pro bono orwho are, you know, trying to
serve certain populations, youknow, and they're not getting
paid very well?
You know, public defenders, youknow, are they greedy and just
doing it?
You know it's like, well, no,so so we can agree that some
lawyers are not, even if not.
So he's then moved from thisuniversal quantifier all every
(22:39):
right, and when people have thatin mind, it tends to be a
limiting belief Every all,always, never right.
And so he helps to just whittleit down to what is almost
necessarily more accurate, thatthere are some counterexamples.
And then he's still you know,he's still got to ask the guy to
take on faith that he might notbe, but he's just like so would
it be okay to be open to theidea he's not asking him to
believe it, but would it be okayto be open to the idea that I
(23:01):
am one of those lawyers who'snot just greedy and the guy's
like, okay, you know.
So, recognizing that beliefchange is seldom like a sudden
jump, but for other kinds ofchanges we're happy to make
steps.
Why not beliefs?
So a belief change, the form ofa belief change this would be.
Another NLP thing is that peopletend to start by becoming open
(23:21):
to doubting.
Then they might move tobecoming open to believing, then
they might move to believing,but it's seldom that they'll
just jump straight frombelieving one thing to believing
another thing.
Right, and so often your firststep is to invite people to
become open to doubting.
Or for a time, would you beopen to acting as if you
believed this, just to see whathappened?
And a lot of times people arewilling.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
To be open.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Maybe convincing somebody to be open is an
additional challenge.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Convincing someone to be open is itself.
And so there, meet them wherethey are before you try to get
them to follow.
We call it pacing and leadingKind of go at their pace and
then lead them to wherever youare.
Go at their pace and then leadthem to wherever you are.
So if somebody is, you know,saying we should be, you know,
increasing income tax, and otherperson says we should decrease
it, so how do you get them to beopen?
(24:10):
So if one person is really like, kind of like, got a lot of
energy behind it and they'reangry, and you're trying to go
the other way and you're justbeing like, and you're trying to
be like really calm andreserved, another outside
observer might look at that andbe like oh well, the calm person
is what I'm going to listen to,because their emotions are not
clouding their judgment.
But if you're trying to talk tothe person who's really
(24:30):
emotional and you're doing that,you're communicating to them
non-verbally.
I am nothing like you.
I do not get where you'recoming from.
Your emotions have nojustification, right?
You're just basically shuttingthem down in every way you can.
So you know, when somebody isdoing that to you, do you like
you want to shout louder to likeyou're like no, you need to
hear this, right, it doesn't getyou to calm down.
(24:51):
So meet them where they are,have some energy about it,
acknowledge how frustrating itis Like, talk about how it makes
sense that they would be so mad.
Meet them there, start to formthat connection, start to build
that like, get in sync, buildthat rapport and then lead them
towards.
You know, and that's why wemaybe want to look at some other
(25:12):
options too, right, you know,maybe they're so entrenched you
won't get anywhere.
But you might get them to beopen to doubting, or at least
open to not needing to be angryat you about it, right, and you
can have more of a rationaldiscussion about it afterwards.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
One person is more or less the one who's in charge of
leading the change, though, orwho is maybe the leader or, more
open minded, the one who is thebigger person, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
In NLP, we would say that the person who is most
flexible is the one who's likelyto have the most influence,
which is a littlecounterintuitive, because
there's certain physical systemswhere you think like, if I'm
belligerent, aren't I going toget my way?
Everybody has to bend to me.
You know, maybe there's a fewexamples where, like a one-time
(26:02):
thing, you get your way, butthen it's all this like fallout.
You know, but in most contexts,the person with the most
flexibility is going to exertthe most influence.
So, if I'm able to be flexiblein terms of meeting you where
you are, or I'm able to beflexible in terms of I thought I
was going to need to be gettingyou to believe something.
Now I'm just going to begetting you to be open to
believing something.
If I can try six different waysof making a change, I probably
(26:25):
have a better odds than if I canonly try one way.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
So, in the years that you've been doing this, are
there patterns of changes thatyou see people wanting to make
using NLP?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Well, it's interesting, I hadn't thought
about that.
One category has to do with abig goal that you know I want to
write a book or do something inmy career.
Another category has to do withfamily relationships, you know,
repairing something or movingpast something that's really
been getting in the way, withkids or parents or siblings or
something like that, or partnerlike that or partner.
(27:02):
Another category has to do withhealing the past that are
getting in the way.
Now they're no longer servingthem, but it's patterns that
they've learned or beliefs theyhave.
Those are three kind of reallybig chunks.
I guess it's basically work,relationships and health.
Essentially is sort of whatI've just tapped into.
Which are the three categoriesof change usually that you'll
see in books on this stuff.
It's not a tool that's justlimited to one thing.
(27:24):
You know, even just wheneverthere's a resistance issue
whether it's internal resistanceI'm resisting doing something
or external resistance I'm in anegotiation or something like
that there's this wonderful toolfrom NLP which is to search for
the positive intention behindthe resistance.
So you presume that there isthe positive intention behind
the resistance.
So you presume that there is apositive intention behind it
(27:45):
first of all, which is an ahafor many people that there is
always not just sometimes.
There is always a positiveintention, that every behavior
has a positive intention.
Even when someone's being ajerk, they are trying to get
something out of it.
A bully often can make friendswith other bullies or can try to
make themselves feel better,right, or to patch up a hole in
(28:06):
their self-worth by bullying.
It doesn't work very well forthem usually.
It often makes it worse, butthat's what they're trying to do
.
It's the positive intention.
So, if you're looking for thatpositive intention, that's the
thing that needs to be addressedto move past the resistance.
So, as long as you can find asatisfying way to address that
positive intention while makingsome change it might not be
(28:28):
exactly the change you had inmind at first, but it might be
but then you are so much morelikely to either move past the
internal resistance or theexternal resistance.
What I try to do, then, is tospeak to that positive intention
.
If your knowledge of that wherethey're trying to get to you
can have more compassion whenyou speak with them, you are
less likely to get riled up.
(28:49):
You are more likely to be ableto talk about what matters to
them.
You're more likely to be ableto couch your suggestions in
terms of what matters to them,right.
You're more likely to be ableto empathize and be there to
support them.
When they're not makingprogress on that, right.
You're more likely to say Ialso want to make progress on
this, and I think you're morelikely to make progress on it.
(29:09):
If you do this, instead ofbelittling people, it just opens
up all those possibilities Ifthey feel like they can't get
this positive intention met.
That's a major source ofresistance.
That's that internal system wewere talking about before.
It's just like that's going tokeep pushing back A lot of times
.
I find people actually knowthat their behavior is
inappropriate or harmful, butthey do it because it's the best
(29:31):
way they know how, given theircurrent understanding and set of
beliefs and skills and so forth.
That's another NLPpresupposition.
We invite people to always justkind of act as if it's always
true.
People always behave in thebest way they know how, given
the context and thecircumstances.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
So, like, what about, even in just one time, first
time ever, interactionconversation?
Is this a tool that you use inthose circumstances, or is this
mainly for the development ofrelationships that are longer
lasting?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I guess when I'm teaching I'll often have
situations where I'm meetingpeople for the the first time
and then I very much I go inwith very much have this in mind
, and so if anybody asks aquestion, I'm looking for the
positive intention behind it andI think it helps me to speak to
the question more effectivelyand not get annoyed with them if
it's like a question that'sjust been asked or something
like that.
Right, if I'm not teaching, Ihaven't just mentally prepared
(30:24):
myself for that and so I don'talways have it top of mind.
You know, and with the kids allday long, they do something.
It'd be really great for me tohave that in mind 100% of the
time, but I don't always.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Can you give us a peek into your classroom?
So what's an example of alesson or an assignment that you
might give to your students,your students.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Oh, yeah, sure.
So let's say you're in sales,right, and you're going to be
presenting.
A lot of times we we go into itwithout really having thought
through explicitly how we wantto evaluate ourselves.
And there's one thing is like Iwant to get the sale Well, the
sale is not in your control,like getting the sale, and so if
(31:03):
it's just getting the sale well, it's like okay, well, or maybe
I want them to have a goodexperience.
How are you going to possiblyknow if they had a good
experience?
Sometimes it's obvious, right,but a lot of times you can't
even really know, and people canhave a wonderful experience
without showing it.
So we want to shift towardsexpectations that are much more
appropriate for you being ableto both know that you're moving
(31:23):
ahead and evaluate yourselfappropriately, because part of
what happens is one of thefounders of NLP said this
disappointment takes adequateplanning.
So you have to have expectedsomething to happen and it
didn't to be disappointed.
And so often we come out ofthese meetings and we feel
disappointed, but why?
It's often not appropriate orit's something we can't put our
(31:44):
finger on, and we don't have todo that to ourselves.
We can be much more thoughtfulabout what we're going in with.
Let's say, I'm teaching a class.
I'll often find that I would bedisappointed if they don't love
me, right, okay, but is thatwhat I'm doing it for?
You know, it's like sure,everybody loves adoration.
I, you know I'm.
I'm happy with adoration, but,like, that's not, certainly not
the only thing I'm doing it for,unless I pause and check myself
(32:06):
and say wait a second, whatwould be a more useful thing for
me to expect out of this?
Well, whether or not they loveme is something I'll never know
and it's not in my control.
But what is in my control is tomake sure that I present this
tool let's say this tool aboutexpectations in a way that
everybody really understands thelogic behind it and how to use
it, and I give a really gooddemonstration, right.
(32:28):
So that could be what I want toexpect myself.
If I do that, I'm happy and ofcourse, anybody can see I'm more
likely to succeed in gettingthem to love me.
If I do that right, it's likebecause I'm going to teach
better, but it's not on my mindanymore.
It's like it's about that, andthen I also can feel really good
about the teaching and my mindis focused on the right thing.
So one of the things I'llinvite people to do then is I'll
(32:49):
give them several like toolsthat I've developed that help
them very quickly identify whatexpectations am I showing up
with and what would be moreuseful expectations to have.
Like, how do I shift thosepertaining to myself, pertaining
to what the audience is goingto get out of this, pertaining
to like just things that mightmake me feel like I'm
disappointed that I haven'treally checked, you know?
And then they work ondiscovering those and setting
(33:13):
more effective ones.
So that would be an example ofsomething that I'll do in a
class.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
And then, when you said expectations, I was
wondering is this also part ofthe NLP model?
So like is lowering one'sexpectations actually a useful
tool?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Ah, right, so I don't think so, but there are
contexts where I do think so,and I would say that is
different from the idea ofsetting more useful expectations
, because lowering theexpectations, I think, has to do
with not expecting as muchsuccess, as opposed to shifting
your focus to what do I want toget out of this, or what do I
(33:50):
want to learn, or what am Itrying to accomplish.
I personally don't think that Icould manage to have 30
business development calls withnew contacts in a month, right.
And if I lower that expectationto four new business
development calls, like new,like high quality leads, in a
(34:10):
month, well, that's smart.
In my case, it's more within mycontrol, right.
So that's a context where justlowering it actually makes a lot
of good sense, because I'mfinding something that's more
appropriate.
Now there's there's times whenhaving something outrageous as
your goal is fine, because onsome level you have that
self-efficacy, that belief thatyou are going to find a way, and
it kind of energizes you, right, because it's all about the
(34:33):
mental model, how it's servingyou.
So in those contexts, sure, gofor it.
In many contexts that wouldn'twork.
No matter what you're doing,the key is what is useful, right
.
If you would be disappointedbecause something turned out and
it wasn't actually the thingthat you wanted to be focused on
, change your expectation, right.
If it's not going to serve you,if it's not going to motivate
(34:53):
you in the right ways, you know,then change that expectation.
That's the real critical, notlowering it.
Yeah, that can be an instanceof making it more useful, but
that's going to be onlysometimes.
What's going to be onlysometimes.
What's going to be more useful,is the key.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
So you work as a teacher, you also run a business
, right, right.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
So, which is a vehicle for teaching, so it's
they're not disconnected.
Yeah, so the Science-BasedLeadership Institute is my
business, and there I'm reallyfocused on taking a principle
from psychology or neuroscience,teaching it, and then how can
you apply it In terms of theexperience of a student?
(35:31):
Very much, I'm still trying todo the same thing where, let's
say, we are talking aboutexpectations.
There is a good deal of overlapbetween the two.
There's many things that I willteach, but I'll go into a
little bit more about thescience of it as a way of
motivating it and, therefore,what we should do, and I think
that speaks to a lot of peoplewho want to know that.
You know, this is logical.
(35:53):
This stuff is really kind oflike OK, yeah, it makes sense.
This is true on average formost people.
I always want to do just enough,though, of that to get people
to understand what we're doingand why, and then it's really
about let's apply it to yourchallenges and actually make
some changes right now on thethings that you're working on,
that you're struggling with,like today.
Make some change that may belasting.
That may be the difference thatmakes the difference for the
(36:14):
rest of your life.
I've had experiences like that.
I know we all have hadexperiences.
One day something does changeand it lasts, even if for years
it didn't.
So what is that difference?
And I think NLP and a lot ofthese science-based tools can
get you there a lot faster.
So Science-Based LeadershipInstitute is what we're doing.
There is teaching, but it's ina corporate context.
(36:35):
When it comes to the NLP stuff,some of the things that Greg
and I and some others are doingis we're specifically taking it
and doing NLP for lawyers, forexample, or NLP for financial
advisors, like reallyspecifically, hey, let's apply
it in your context.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
This is a lot to absorb, it's a lot to learn and
to understand.
It's a very deep way ofthinking.
That's brilliant that you'redoing it that way, because then
it makes it so clear andprobably easier to grasp the
concepts.
So just to wrap up a little bithere if you could go back and
have a conversation withyourself when you were in your
(37:11):
early twenties, what would yousay?
What life wisdom would youimpart?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I would say you're doing the best you know how
right now, given thecircumstances and your abilities
right now.
Love yourself, enjoy it, trythings out.
I think one of the main reasonswould be so that Josh could let
go of feeling embarrassed aboutprevious years as we go.
If you get better at anything,you're better than you were, or
(37:39):
at least you have differentvalues.
So just free him of some ofthat burden by understanding,
and really it's.
If you knew then what you knew,then you would do it exactly
the same, necessarily.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
And that's okay.
Yeah, it's like have compassionfor yourself, not just others,
but for yourself too.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, and I think it'll probably follow that
you'll have more compassion forothers as a result.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, josh, thank you so much for coming on today and
chatting with us.
I don't know if there'sanything else that you would
like to share with where peoplecan connect with you.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
I mean in terms of websites, there's
nlpdifferencecom and there'ssciencebasedleadershipcom and
you can sign up for ournewsletters at either one.
At Science Based Leadership,there's Brain Basics for
Business is kind of the formatfor that, and.
But there's Brain Basics forBusiness is kind of the format
for that.
And at the NLP Difference, it'sabout how do I make use of NLP
tools in my day-to-day life.
So the book is called theDifference.
(38:34):
That Makes a Difference.
It's July 8th release and reachout.
I would love to hear from you.
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Today's key takeaways .
Influence begins with openness.
Before you try to persuade orshare an idea, pause and ask is
the other person open to hearingthis?
We can't force someone to thinkor feel a certain way, but we
can earn the right to be heardby building connection first.
(39:01):
Communication is so much morethan words.
Tone, rhythm, body language,even subtle cues like matching
someone's speech patterns theyall shape how your message is
received.
We feel more trust when we'rein sync, even in the small ways.
A nonverbal cue like crossedarms doesn't always mean what
(39:22):
you think.
Verbal cue like crossed armsdoesn't always mean what you
think.
Instead of jumping toconclusions, get curious.
What might have caused thatshift?
Confidence can start with yourbody.
Try to stand tall shouldersback and take a full breath.
You might be surprised.
Not only may others perceiveyou differently, but you may
(39:44):
actually feel different too.
Posture can influence emotion,and if that doesn't quite do it
for you, stay curious and open.
Keep experimenting withdifferent confidence-boosting
tools.
Notice the people who seemnaturally confident.
What are they doing?
Could you try a version of thatyourself?
(40:06):
If someone else can do it, youcan learn it.
Josh reminded us that modelingstudying how others move, think
and behave is a powerful way togrow.
What beliefs or behaviors couldyou try on and adapt to make
your own?
When in doubt, shift the focus.
Confidence often disappearswhen we're stuck wondering what
(40:29):
others think of us.
Instead, try asking who do Iwant to connect with?
What excites me here?
What do I have to offer?
Saying I should or I must can belimiting.
Reframe those thoughts into Iwant to or I choose to.
(40:50):
It's a simple change that opensup freedom and ownership.
You are not your emotions.
Feeling nervous, anxious.
That's a part of you, not allof you.
Let your confident self takethe lead.
Emotions are signals, not youridentity.
Look for the positive intentionbehind resistance, whether it's
(41:14):
internal hesitation or externalconflict.
Ask what positive purpose mightthis behavior be trying to
serve?
This shift in mindset opens thedoor to compassion and real
change.
Disappointment often comes fromunspoken or unrealistic
(41:34):
expectations.
So check in.
What am I expecting from thissituation?
Is that useful Flexibility canimpact influence.
The person who is mostadaptable is often the most
influential.
Not because they overpower, butbecause they stay curious,
(41:55):
adjust and keep moving forward.
And lastly, you're doing yourbest with what you know right
now.
Be gentle with yourself andyour past self.
Growth means we evolve, andthat's something to celebrate,
not regret.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
(42:15):
Have a great day.
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