June 3, 2025 • 53 mins
Today’s guest is Samantha Rose, an Emmy award-winning television writer and three-time New York Times Bestselling ghostwriter.
She’s the founder of Yellow Sky Media, a literary development company that collaborates with celebrities, experts, and industry leaders to bring their powerful stories to life.
Recently, Samantha stepped into the spotlight with her own memoir, Giving Up The Ghost, a poignant exploration of the grief and unanswered questions that followed her mother’s suicide.
Her work has reached readers around the world, with projects translated into more than twenty languages and featured in the Wall Street Journal, Harper’s Bazaar, Time, and selected as Reese’s Book Club and Target Bookmarked picks.
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Website: https://www.annemcginty.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McGinty, and today'sguest is Samantha Rose, an Emmy
Award-winning television writerand three-time New York Times
bestselling ghostwriter.
She's the founder of Yellow SkyMedia, a literary development
company that collaborates withcelebrities, experts and
(00:28):
industry leaders to bring theirpowerful stories to life.
Recently, samantha stepped intothe spotlight with her own
memoir Giving Up the Ghost, anexploration of the grief and
unanswered questions thatfollowed her mother's suicide.
Her work has reached readersaround the world, with projects
translated into more than 20languages and featured in the
(00:50):
Wall Street Journal, harper'sBazaar Time and selected as
Reese's Book Club and Targetbookmarked picks.
You can find links to connectwith Samantha in the episode's
description.
If you've been tuning in, youknow this show isn't about
selling anything.
(01:10):
It's about sharing meaningfulstories and learning along the
way.
If how I built my smallbusiness has brought you any
insight, inspiration or evenjust a spark of curiosity, there
are a few simple ways you cansupport the journey Follow the
show, share your favoriteepisode with a friend or leave a
(01:31):
quick review.
Each one truly helps me growthis show.
Thank you, let's get started.
How did you first get intowriting and then how did that
turn into Yellow Sky Media?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, I have always enjoyed writing.
I majored in journalism in SanFrancisco State and then at
Sonoma State, so I've alwaysbeen a writer and I come from
writers.
My mother was a writer and alsomy stepfather, so I grew up
around a lot of journalists, soI guess it was a calling or it
was what I knew.
I was living in Austin, texas,and well, what happened is I
(02:15):
started writing a blog back inlike 2005, when writing blogs
was kind of new and hip and noteveryone in the world had a blog
, and I was a new stepmother andthere was a whole mommy blog
explosion on the scene at thatpoint, but there weren't a lot
of stepmothers blogging, and soI thought there was a little
(02:36):
niche opportunity for me there.
So I started a stepmother's blogcalled stepmother's milk, and I
think that was around the timeI decided to just also create a
company around it.
Not knowing where it would go,I had great dreams of it
becoming some big thing.
It did actually launch me intowriting books.
So I was approached by a NewYork agent pretty early on in
(02:59):
the blogging journey who askedif I wanted to write a book, and
so that was my first memoir,called the Package Deal based on
that blog and then I parlayedthat into ghostwriting, so
Yellow Sky Media became sort ofthe parent company that I did
all these things under.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
That first book that you published?
Was that under your name, orwas that co-authored?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, that was under a pen name, because I was
writing my blog under a pen name, izzy Rose, just to be kind of
to protect my family.
I was writing about my stepsonsand my new husband and myself,
and so that book was writtenunder that pen name.
And then all my ghostwritingbooks if I get cover credit or
credit in the acknowledgementsit's Samantha Rose.
(03:45):
So it's been interesting thatthe ghostwritten books are under
my name, but my first memoirwas under a different name and
then my new.
My new memoir that just cameout is finally just my own,
written under Samantha Rose.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
That must feel so good.
It does feel good Well.
So I do want to get to yourbook at some point, but I want
to just dive in a little bitmore on this ghost writing that
you started doing.
I'm just wondering.
So let's say that a businessowner contacted you and just
felt that they had a verycompelling story or insights
that they wanted to share.
(04:20):
Like, what is your process tohelp pull that story out of them
if they're not a naturalstoryteller or a writer?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
That's how I get a lot of clients.
These are folks who aren'twriters.
Typically, they have a greatidea.
They have a company or aproduct or a business or a life
legacy story that they want toget down on paper, but they
don't have the time or theknow-how to do it.
So ghostwriters most often wewrite the entirety of the book,
(04:53):
so it's not collaborative in theway that some people might
think, where they're writing alittle and then I'm writing a
little.
Most everything I've writtenI've written exclusively for the
client I'm working with, and sothe way that happens is through
creating a really intimaterelationship with a person, like
we're doing now.
We talk a lot either on zoom oron the phone regularly, and so
(05:18):
I'm getting their story andtheir voice in my head.
Most every book I've writtenand I have 17 books now under my
belt are first person narrative, so I'm writing as my client,
and I'm able to do that bygetting to know them and
listening really closely to whatthey have to say and then
(05:39):
channeling it back onto the page.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
How long does that process take for you to really
feel like you know the person'svoice and you can maintain that
for the duration of the book.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I can get a sense pretty quickly.
I have an ear for dialogue andjust the pacing of how people
speak and I remember dialoguereally well.
I remember how people saythings and what they say, which
my son and some of my friendsfind really irritating.
So I can get a sense prettyquickly.
(06:13):
Although it's, it's helpfulwhen people are open, right.
So the the projects that havebeen the most difficult are when
people withhold and and theydon't want to engage in open
conversation because I can't.
I can't start to hear you sortof as my own voice unless you
(06:34):
open up to me.
But I've had most.
All my clients have been ableto do that.
It's really an amazingpartnership because there's so
much trust involved.
I'm still quite astonished thatpeople are able and willing to
open up and tell their story andallow me to write it down for
them.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
What you're saying really resonates with me because
, as a podcast host, of courseI'm hoping that my guest can
feel vulnerable enough that theycan speak authentically and
with heart.
I'm curious to know what sortof methods or questions or types
of conversations you have withyour clients in order to get
(07:18):
them to feel comfortable enoughto go deep.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
It's just meeting and engaging in conversation.
I do ask a lot of questions.
I'm really curious about peopleand maybe that's the journalism
in me.
People speak and it brings up aquestion in me and I'll say,
well, what about this?
Or, you know, can you tell memore about that?
I've also.
I'm a big proponent of therapy.
(07:43):
I've had lots of therapists inmy life and I think, without
realizing it, there's someosmosis that's happened there,
where I'm able to I don't knowask meaningful and pointed
questions or notice things aboutwhat people are saying that
point us in a new direction.
I've had some of my clients sayyou're more like a therapist
(08:05):
than a book coach.
I don't know.
I think it's.
There has to be a chemistrythere where both of us are
willing to just talk and behonest, and that's when we get
the best stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And I think that when you mentioned curiosity, I feel
like a deep curiosity about theperson that you're speaking
with is always helpful, Like Ifind that every single person
that I speak with is absolutelyfascinating and they have
something to share or teach meand share In a similar way,
(08:43):
people have said after theseinterviews that it's like
business therapy.
So when somebody is telling youtheir story or they're
answering your questions, whatdetails are you looking for that
you believe make it resonatewith readers?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I look for interesting dialogue.
I listen for details about astory that might seem
inconsequential or maybe evenboring to the person telling
them, because we don't alwaysnotice the details in our own
stories because we know them sowell.
So I might say no, no, no, tellme more about that, like you
(09:24):
mentioned that you were wearing,you know a green shirt or
whatever.
So I might say no, no, no, tellme more about that, like you
mentioned that you were wearing,you know a green shirt or
whatever.
So I pull out details.
I think little moments like thatwhat someone's wearing, or
where they're sitting, or youknow what they're drinking, or
it can seem like very surfacestuff, but details bring stories
to life.
I also I love dialogue, so I'llencourage us to talk out who
(09:48):
said what in a scene.
Again, when people starttelling me what they want to
talk about or what their storyis or what their message is, it
brings questions to the frontfor me, and so we'll just, we'll
just tease them out.
You know, I'll go as far as Ican with them until they say are
we done now?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And what are the genres that you specialize in?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I write a lot of personal growth, spirituality,
there's business, leadership,personal growth, inspirational.
I've done memoir, I've donesome parenting, I've done a lot
of different things nutrition,lifestyle.
I steer away from heavy scienceand politics and history only
(10:35):
because my brain doesn't holdthat information very well and
so it's harder for me to captureit and then relay it back onto
the page.
I can do it, but it's harderfor me.
I'm much more attuned topeople's intimate thoughts and
feelings and reflections.
I can capture that much betterfor some reason.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So if someone wanted to write a book and we know a
lot of people out in the worldreally do want to write a book
and they don't know where tobegin and they're not at a place
where they're ready to hire aghostwriter what kind of advice
would you give them?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I would suggest they make a list of books that really
resonate and that inspire themand might be the type of thing
they want to write.
Similarly, what are the thingsthat you don't want to write?
I often give this assignment,especially for people writing
book proposals.
You know, go into the bookstoreor pick books from your own
(11:29):
library that have really movedyou, not that you're going to
write that book, but just to geta sense of the kind of work you
want to do.
And this could be is it aboutthe setting or the scenes in
these books?
Is it about the characters orthe dialogue?
Like, what are the pieces andelements that really resonate
(11:49):
with you that you would like tomimic or mirror in your own
writing?
I think that's just a goodclarifying exercise.
It's about taking notes.
I have a I'm a big list maker.
I buy stacks of post-its andI'm always writing down just
ideas, and then I create likebucket lists of separate
(12:12):
documents, of themes in the bookor settings or different people
, and I just start puttingrandom pieces of information in
there and they're kind of ajumbled mess, but they're at
least organized in sections.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But to just start getting things written down by
like topic, like during the day,as you're going about the day.
If you have a great thought,you just jot it down.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Like bucket lists of things, songs that inspire you.
Like the book that I just wrote, a lot of songs were inspiring
different things that I waswriting at different times and I
just so I had a separate listof music to go back to to kind
of jog my memory about.
Oh right, that that idea about,or the song title jogged
(12:58):
something in me that I wanted towrite a work into a chapter
head per se.
But I'm just like accumulatinginformation and keeping it sort
of messy, but in an organizedmess, instead of just one big
document, I think makes peoplefeel crazy and like this can
never become anything.
So I'm also a fan of table ofcontents and just giving
yourself grace that they'refluid and they can change at any
(13:20):
time.
But to just start thinking interms of flow what happens first
, what happens next and oh, Idefinitely know I want a scene
where this happens I'm going toput it in right here now and
maybe it'll move later but tostart working with an organized
table of contents some peoplehate that.
I mean, the other thing isputting yourself on a schedule
(13:45):
and again, this isn't alwayspopular advice because a lot of
people say it and I thinkaspiring writers want to work
around like no, I don't want toput myself on a schedule, tell
me something else to do.
But you have got to carve outtime to just sit down or saddle
up to your standup desk andwrite, whether that's a whole
(14:05):
day a week or one hour a week.
But it's protected time thatyou do not interfere with,
because I do this too.
You know, waiting for thisfantasy moment later down the
road where I'm going to have sixweeks of open-ended time and
I'm going to sit down and write.
Just, it doesn't happen formost people and it just doesn't.
And so I write and read everyday.
(14:28):
I mean, I also write for aliving, so I have to write every
day.
But even it does build onitself.
I mean, even one hour a week,week after week, does build on
itself in not just in creatingthe content building on itself,
but building the muscle ofwriting builds on the repetition
(14:50):
of doing it, and it can be hardto get started, but I mean I
feel like getting started isreally the hardest piece.
Once you have built it intoyour schedule in some kind of
way, it does get easier.
I promise it really does.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So are you suggesting that people just write about
anything?
They find a journal prompt andthey just start answering it.
If they want to write abouttheir day, they just write.
Or or are you meaning to bedeliberate about, once they've
sort of thought about theirtable of contents or their
outline, that they sort of picka topic within there and and try
to tease that out?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I would say either one.
Okay, because the other magicalthing that happens with writing
is that it reveals things toyou that you did not know were
there, and I discovered this inthe book that just came out.
There were things that I didn'teven know about that story, or
about myself, or about therelationship with my mother that
revealed themselves in thewriting.
And it is just.
One of the magical aspects ofcreativity is that it surprises
(15:50):
you.
You know, even though it'sbeing generated by you, there's
something unknown that will cometo the surface, and it usually
will.
It'll work itself out on thepage.
If you give yourself the timeto do it, it will.
So, even if you think, oh, I'msitting down to write this and
(16:10):
it feels random, I don't knowwhere it's going, I don't know
where it fits, if you invest thetime in it, I think it will
tell you where it wants to be.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And if somebody did this who was again moving
towards a goal of eventuallywanting to publish a book?
And they have pages and pagesand pages of this writing, but
it's somewhat incoherent, itdoesn't flow well.
Is that a point at which theywould come to you, or do they
need to polish it further beforeapproaching you?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I work with people at all different stages.
So I work with folks who arewriting book proposals and they
haven't done different stages.
So I work with folks who arewriting book proposals and they
haven't done anything yet.
So I coach them through thatprocess.
I work with some people whohave a full manuscript, like
you're describing.
That's, that's somewhere, butit needs a lot of organization
and I help them with structureand organization and flow.
Some people just need an editor, you know, and their stuff is
(17:07):
pretty clean coming in.
So I work with people at alldifferent stages.
I think the hardest stage towork with people is just from
concept.
They have an idea but theyhaven't written anything yet.
I like to work with people atthat stage and I am currently
working with a couple like thatand I am currently working with
(17:37):
a couple like that.
But getting over that hurdle ofstarting is, I think, the
hardest.
So a coach does help in thatcapacity because I, you know, I
keep you accountable more thananything with you weekly or
biweekly to keep you accountablemoving forward.
A lot, of, a lot of people justwant permission to write.
A lot of folks I think if it'snot your profession, it feels
indulgent maybe, or there's somany other things to make time
(17:59):
for, so you don't make time tosit down and write.
But having a coach to say, no,your story is important, what
you're telling me feels relevantand important to say, so make
the time to do it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
How long average?
I know this is probably a verydifficult question to answer,
but how long can that processreally take before you feel like
you've got the story or thatthey have their story?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
If I'm the ghostwriter on it, I usually
turn full books within sixmonths.
Whoa, but that's.
You know, that's writing everyday and not for an hour, and
that's five or six or sevenhours a day.
It's a full-time job.
I've been doing it for almost20 years, so I can work pretty
quickly for somebody else.
I mean, I usually talk to themat the onset, let's have an end
(18:49):
goal in mind and then we workbackwards from there.
I think it's important to havea deadline.
Deadlines are important.
As much as we might hate them,they do keep us moving forward
and motivating us, and they canmove.
You know we'll make room forvacations and emergencies and
things that come up, but let'slet's have a deadline and work
(19:09):
backwards from that.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
And then how do you decide which publishing route to
take?
So, of the 17 books that youwrote, did you do proposals for
all of them?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yes, most all of them .
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Which type of publishing did you choose for
those?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So all the books that I have ghostwritten came in
through an agent and have beentraditionally published.
So most of my publishingbackground is with the big five.
I think it's the big five, no,I think there's only four.
Now it's hard to keep trackbecause publishing consolidates
(19:44):
like everything else.
So those have been.
They come in through an agentusually and I write the proposal
and then the agent sells them.
Now a lot of my coachingclients aren't agented or they
don't have a publishingagreement before I meet with
them, and hybrid publishing andself-publishing is is really
popular.
(20:04):
Some people really want to betraditionally published and that
can still happen, but there areoptions now that weren't before
, which is great.
So if you have a story to tell,you can tell it, you can get
published.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, it's interesting how somehow
traditional publishing has beenable to maintain its prominence.
Well, I guess it's changing now, but it does feel like the
whole business model has shifted.
From an outside perspectiveLike I don't really know what
I'm talking about because I'mnot in the industry, but from an
(20:42):
outside perspective and frompeople I've spoken to who are in
the industry it feels likethere's a lot of shifting that's
taken place.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
There is a lot of shifting and I think it's good
news for writers, becausethere's more opportunity to get
published now than before.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yeah, that's.
It's a nice way to look at it.
I guess there's also a lot ofnoise to compete with.
So, that was the other thingthat I was wondering is that
when you are helping to createthese stories and you know what
all of the competing titles arethat are on the shelves and just
all of the different anglesthat are being taken, how do you
(21:23):
find that balance, that anglethat is unique, to carve a space
on that shelf that reallystands out?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It's tricky.
I mean and I follow thatexercise I mentioned earlier I
tend to go to bookstores.
I still love to go to my localindie and just see what's on the
shelves and to see what isselling.
It's good news when what you'rewriting has already been
written slightly right, becauseit tells you that it has a
market, it has a readership andthat it's saleable.
(21:55):
So that you're competing withother books in the space is okay
.
You just want to find the one,like you say, the unique aspect
that makes you pop out.
Sometimes that's thepersonality of the author.
Sometimes there's, you know, atweak on messaging that's
already out there, but there's anew way that they're looking at
(22:15):
it.
Sometimes you know it could beanything.
Really, oftentimes it's acombination of those things.
But you got to do your homeworka little bit and study, study
the market and see what peopleare reading.
Publishing a lot is aboutforecasting what people are
going to be reading in a year.
You know future casting, andthat's difficult, like it's hard
(22:37):
to know that.
So there's some guesswork thatgoes into it.
But I think that there's a lotto be learned by looking at what
is current now and what is soldin the past and then really
thinking about what is it that Ihave that's different, or why?
Why do I want to write thisbook like what is my, what's the
(22:57):
why for me?
And and making sure that thatis front and center yeah, yeah,
that's a.
That's a good way to approach itand to think about it, because
Because there's a million booksout there, right On every topic
and subject, so it's hard tofind something that hasn't ever
been done, and that's fine.
I think people sometimes getdeflated by that.
(23:18):
Well, it's already out there,someone already wrote a book on
this and yes, they have.
But no one has written yourbook.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
What about the work that needs to be done outside of
writing?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So you know establishing an audience or
having a newsletter or blog,whatever it is to help support
your eventual book.
Like how important do you feel?
That that stuff is not for meso much to worry about.
We do talk about it because itis a reality and the book that
just came out, that I wrote mymemoir Giving Up the Ghost my
journey for that has beeninteresting because it has
tapped into that question.
So I have a background inpublishing.
(24:04):
I know a lot of editors andfolks in that world.
As a ghostwriter though, I hadnot written my own book under my
own name ever and I knew thatplatform was going to be an
issue and it was.
It was what set me apart fromgetting a big, big publishing
(24:25):
deal and not.
I ended up going with a kind ofa hybrid traditional publisher
where platform wasn't asimportant.
So it is something people needto think about, and if you don't
have one, you just have tobuild one.
And I've been trying to justfocus on a few different things
because there's a lot that youcan do.
(24:47):
You can get on the festivalcircuit, you can have a
newsletter, you can have apodcast, you can do live events,
you can do virtual events.
I mean you can spend all day onthis stuff and we only have so
much bandwidth and emotionalenergy for these things.
And finances, I mean.
That's part of it too.
So I steer people to thinkabout what are three things that
(25:09):
you'd be willing to do.
Increase your social presence.
Do you want to write?
Do you want to?
You know, substack is a placewhere a lot of writers are now
to extend their reach, but thatrequires writing new content.
Do you have the bandwidth forthat?
Maybe you're someone that wantsto focus on meeting people in
person, and so that would meanfocusing on live events.
(25:30):
But keep it.
Keep it curated for what you're, what you're interested in
doing and available to do, can'tdo it all.
Yeah, we, whatever you have thebandwidth for and what you want
to do, because if you don't, ifyou're someone that doesn't want
to go on podcasts, then justthen.
Don't focus your energy there.
Focus it somewhere else.
(25:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So let's talk about giving up the ghost a little bit
because, as you mentioned, itwas your first book written
under your real name, and you'vehelped write 17 other books for
people.
What was the process likewriting your own book this time,
in comparison to helping otherswrite theirs?
(26:14):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I started out thinking, oh, I can turn this
sucker in six months becausethat's what I'm trained to do
and I'm writing my own story, soI don't have to interview
anyone, I don't have to thinkhow anyone else would respond to
this on the page, I can justI'll be able to do this so
quickly.
Well, I was wrong there,because I was writing about me
(26:37):
and my mother's relationship andspecifically her death.
She died by suicide.
So it was a really emotionaltime of my life and my most
meaningful relationship, and soit was not something I could
just crank out.
I realized that pretty quicklyonce I started outlining it.
And then the first chapter and Ithought, oh, wow, this is.
(26:58):
This is going to take me alittle bit longer, because I was
actually processing a lot of mygrief through the writing,
through the writing, which endedup being the most cathartic and
meaningful experience.
So it took me a bit longer.
I think I spent about a yearwriting in earnest, but I pushed
(27:18):
other projects off my plate towrite it.
I was doing what I suggestedyou don't do earlier in our
conversation, where sneaking inwriting time here and there in
between other things, and itjust wasn't happening.
So I was able to create a lotof open space to work on it.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
And I imagine, as you were saying, that the process
was very healing for you.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
It was.
It was really healing.
So I had a handful of scenesand conversations in my mind
that just kept banging around inmy head, and so I wrote those
first.
So I wrote out of order, and asI was writing them and working
them onto the page, I realizedonce they were down, they kind
(28:04):
of lifted.
They weren't so ever present,playing back in my head, which
was really freeing and reallycool actually.
So once they were on the page,they had kind of an exercise out
of my body not that I wasn'tthinking about them, but they
weren't nagging at me in thesame kind of way.
And so I realized that not onlywas I telling a story, but I
(28:25):
was really working through griefand channeling it in the best
way I knew how to do, which isthrough writing.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, it was a trauma release for you too.
Grief to me, grief and traumasort of go a little bit hand in
hand when you relive thoseexperiences in your head, the
good and the bad, and they won't, you know, leave.
And how is that process for younow that it's out and you're
choosing a few different placeswhere you can elevate your
(28:57):
platform?
But what is this post-releasebook launch space like?
What does it feel like?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
It feels good.
You know this.
So my mom passed five years agoand then I was able to find a
publisher who could launch thebook almost to the five year
anniversary date, which was sosynchronistic and amazing, and
that that just really happenedrecently.
So this story has been livingin me for five years and I've
(29:28):
been writing about it andworking it through my body and
working with therapists and I'veheld it really tight and close
to my heart and it's livedinside me and so now it's in
book form and people are readingit and I feel a lot of release
from it.
And I feel a lot of releasefrom it Having people read a
(29:50):
story.
That's so personal and I'mgetting emails from folks who
they have a parallel experienceor it's resonating on different
levels.
They can relate to littledetails that I thought were just
so my own Right and realizingno other people.
There was one woman who's likeI watch British Bake Off when
(30:13):
I'm feeling really sad, we're,so it was like a little thing
that I'd been binge watchingBritish Bake Off because I
couldn't stand to watch anythingelse when I was in the early
hours of grief.
So that has been amazing andI'm continuing to do that put
myself out there and haveconversations with people about
(30:34):
loss and love and grief andmental health and their
relationship with their mother,and so I feel like I'm in this
sweet spot of it now when youand I were emailing before and
we were speaking about our, ourgriefs, which sort of took place
in a similar timeframe, and Idon't know if I mentioned to you
(30:55):
but the reason why I startedthis podcast was because of my
dad's passing.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
So it too, has been cathartic in a different way.
You know, my dad was very muchinto continued learning and
compassion and helping otherpeople.
I wanted to live more like himand I find it to be so
fascinating how, when our lovedones pass, they can have
(31:21):
sometimes an even greater impacton our lives than when they
were here.
It's like it opens up a part ofour hearts, or opens up like
cracks.
You open a little bit, right, Iguess.
Some people they get broken.
I think I heard this analogythe other day.
They get broken, but theycreate an armored shell and then
(31:43):
they hold it all inside and forsome of us they get broken open
and they discover a new part ofthemselves from it.
Has this been your experience?
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah, I feel that way .
You know, it wasn't the story Iwanted to write, but it was the
story handed to me, and my momwas a writer, as I mentioned,
and I've spent most of my careerwriting, and so it felt like
the natural thing to do would beto write about the experience
and create a legacy for her.
(32:17):
You know, part of the book, abig part of the book, is these
conversations that she and Ihave when she was alive, but
also I create this dialoguebetween she and I after she has
passed, and we're having theconversations that I wanted to
have with her and, even thoughshe was no longer here, I
decided, well, we're going tohave them anyway, and I wanted
(32:39):
to give her voice to comment onwhat had happened, so that her
legacy didn't just end the dayshe passed, that it continued on
and we worked.
We worked with some of thesethings on the page, and so I
feel that it became aresponsibility to talk about.
You know, suicide is not asubject everyone wants to talk
(33:01):
about, and mental health andillness and the things that
scare us, but there areimportant conversations to have,
and if she had not died in themanner that she did, I would
probably be doing something elseright now, but because of how
she left and because of how shelived, it has created this new
chapter of my life.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I loved what you were saying about creating dialogue
with your mother as if it weretoday, after she's passed.
I can imagine how that wouldalso feel and for me personally,
I would have a hard timedelineating between am I
creating that thought or am Iactually hearing my father?
Because there are times whenI'm just going about my day and
(33:44):
I'm just not in a space whereI'm expecting to think about him
, and but I will hear his voiceand I wonder am I really hearing
his voice?
Like, is this some sort ofconsciousness surviving without
a physical body?
Or is my brain just creating it?
And I'm pretty open to eitherone of those possibilities.
(34:04):
I don't know how you feel aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Well, I definitely raised that question in the
writing of the book and I leaveit to the reader to decide
what's going on there.
But I think ultimately itdoesn't matter.
Process and heal and come to alevel of understanding that we
(34:28):
didn't have before.
Then it doesn't matternecessarily if it's our own mind
creating the conversations orif they're inspired, divinely
inspired or, you know,visitations from beyond.
Maybe they're all three, but Idefinitely explored that a lot
in the book and I do a processof automatic writing where I'm
channeling her onto the page,much like I do when I'm
(34:49):
ghostwriting and I talk abouthow now I'm ghosting the ghost
and how isn't this interesting?
And everyone's gonna think I'mnuts, but hey, it feels really
natural and right and this is mytraining.
So let's, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, I kind of want to try that process to just see
what happens myself.
If I were to have aconversation with my dad right
now, like what would he say?
I've never thought of doingthat and I think I might try.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I encourage people to do it, it's because it's not
something that just I can do.
And I make clear in the bookI'm not a medium, I'm not a
psychic, I you know I don't haveexpertise in channeling the
dead, but I do think that we allhave the capacity to open up to
the unknown and the unseen andit really just all it requires
is opening up and engaging,getting a little quiet,
(35:41):
listening and then writing downwhat you hear.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I think I'm going to do this.
It just sounds like a funexercise, if nothing else, just
to see what happens.
So now with Yellow Sky Media,it sounds like your workload
shifts depending on the needs ofyour clients.
Can you give us a glimpse intowhat it's like?
Are you in office like?
Do you work with anybody else?
(36:05):
What are your weeks like andyour days like?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Okay, I wish it were more glamorous than it is.
I do have an office away frommy house.
I worked in a home office formany, many years and then, after
COVID, I just couldn't do itanymore.
I had great training to work athome during COVID.
Like a lot of people had tolearn very quickly how to work
(36:29):
out of their own homes.
I was well greased in thatdepartment, but after we came
out of that I thought I cannot.
I cannot do this anymore.
So I have a really great officedown in downtown Petaluma that
I go to most days.
I my days are structured.
I try to get in by, you know, 9or 10 o'clock depending, after
I drop my kid off at school andI write until I have to pick him
(36:51):
up.
So not quite banker's hours,but pretty close.
I write Monday through Friday.
Now some of that time is spentreading work that clients have
written and I'm reading andediting for them.
So I'm not completely head downwriting all that time.
It depends.
I'm all referral based.
(37:12):
So right now my workload isprimarily working with a client
on a ghostwriting project andthen filling in with coaching,
and it's really fun.
I mean I meet reallyinteresting people.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
How long did it take you to get to this point Like?
I imagine that the early daysof yellow sky media were a lot
slower, as would be expected ofany new business, but to reach
this level like?
How long did it take for you toget to such a comfortable pace?
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Well, I guess I was lucky that from the get-go I I
had a book project and then Ijust kept leapfrogging.
I had an agent that wasbringing me work, so I give her
a lot of credit, for as I waswrapping up one project she'd
bring another one in through thedoor.
And so I was.
As I was finishing one, I wasstarting on the next, and I did
that for probably 15 yearswithout any break, sometimes
(38:05):
working at two books at a time,but always almost starting and
finishing a book a year.
That's starting a proposal,proposal sales, writing a full
length book and then by pub date.
So just one after the other,after the other, and then it was
in maybe 22.
So not too far back.
(38:26):
I started working as a coach,more filling in those gaps, and
I wanted to create space towrite my own book.
So I was only able to do that,to pull back on writing a full
length title.
You know always have one that Iwas in and then filling in with
clients.
But I think that the clientcoaching work that that took
(38:48):
years to to get to a point wherepeople would come to me just on
referral, you know.
So that when I did haveopenings in my schedule that
there was always someone.
I usually have like a two tothree month waiting period for
coaching clients to come in.
Wow, not always, not always.
There's some where I'm like, oh, what are we doing here?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Well, so I did want to know a little bit more about
this type of a business for you,like what are the highest highs
and what are the lowest lows?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Well, I think the highest highs is that writing
for me anyways a really magicalcreative process where you get
to that place of flow, you know,and sort of time and space
disappears and you're just in inthe writing for hours there's.
There's a lot of times whereyou know I look up and it's been
(39:41):
four hours I've been standingat my desk writing and I'm like
where did the time go?
And oh, I look back atsomething I've written and think
, oh, that's pretty good.
I don't actually rememberwriting that.
You know that that flow state,if you can get into it, is a.
It's a pretty privileged andlovely way to make a living,
whether that's whatever you do,whatever kind of creative form,
(40:03):
so that's that's the high.
Do whatever kind of creativeform, so that's that's the high.
And I get to make my ownschedule, even though people
think, oh, writers have all thisflexibility and you know you're
, you get to go in whenever youwant, you get to.
If you want to just take theday off, you can.
Or if you decide you want totake a hike in the middle of the
day, you know you're your ownboss and I've never given myself
permission to live that way.
(40:24):
I'm not sure why, but I'm apretty structured gal, but
ultimately I get to make thechoice to be structured, so I
guess there's something freeingin that, I'd say.
The low is that writing is avery solitary pursuit and the
solitude piece of it that isrequired to get the job done can
(40:44):
get kind of lonely, of it thatis required to get the job done
can get kind of lonely.
And so I have to reallychallenge myself to connect and
engage outside of my laptop whenthe workday is over and engage
in the world, and that'ssomething I continue to work on.
I have these fantasiessometimes of you know being in
an office where people aregathering and chatting over you
(41:06):
know lunch and you know there'swork events, and I've probably
watched too many sitcoms wherethat happens and maybe that's
not really the reality anymore,but in my fantasy mind I'm like
everyone else is having so muchfun and I'm just here with
myself every day.
So I'm trying to continue towork on challenging myself to
integrate more people outside ofthe writing world.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, I suppose you could always increase the size
of your team if you wanted to.
So can you give us an idea ofjust how a ghostwriter earns
income?
Is this a per book fee, or doyou get a cut of the performance
of the book, or do you, or isit a combination of both?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
This is a great question.
It comes up a lot in theghostwriting community and a lot
of us are working to have moreof a standardized pace scale so
that there isn't such a largediscrepancy between one ghost
and the next.
I mean, certainly there are.
There are those of us who'vebeen doing it for longer than
the newbies.
But how does it work?
Typically is I get to ask for apercentage of the advance and we
(42:13):
set that up ahead of time apercentage of the advance, and
that includes then royalties andoften foreign rights.
Sometimes it makes more senseto ask for a flat rate for the
whole project going in, butalways determining this ahead of
time, usually in the proposalphase.
(42:33):
The proposal is usually aseparate entity and there's a
range of what people charge, buttypically between like five and
$25,000 to write a proposal.
And then my coaching isdifferent and that's usually
hourly but I charge in a blockof hours.
So I found that this works well.
(42:54):
It forces people to commit to acertain amount of time, not an
outrageous amount like 10, orcommit to 10 or 20 hours and pay
for them upfront, like youwould for a gym membership, and
then it keeps you accountable tome to show up and then it
reserves space in my schedule.
That has worked well.
I know a number of ghostwriters.
(43:14):
It's pretty standard working inthat way.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
I can imagine a community of ghostwriters
getting together and that justsounds like it would be a
fascinating room to walk into,hearing what you all would be
talking about.
I just think that it would be afascinating room to walk into,
hearing what you all would betalking about.
I just think that that would befascinating.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
It is pretty fun.
You know I didn't know anyother ghostwriters for almost
the 10 years or so that I wasdoing it and I thought I was the
only weirdo on the planet thatdid this kind of work and come
to find out there are many, many, many of us.
I think it was last year or theyear before and they're doing
it again.
This year was the firstconvention of ghostwriters in
New York, put on by Gothamghostwriters, which is a sort of
(43:53):
a big collection ofghostwriters and there were I
can't remember exactly maybeunder 500, but all of us in one,
one room together and it wasreally pretty cool.
There are a group of us thatadmitted after the full day that
it felt really weird.
You know to be amongst so manyof us because we're ghost
(44:14):
writers and you know a lot ofwriters are natural introverts,
so it was just felt very, veryexternal and vulnerable to be so
public about our craft.
But also you know it was, itwas awesome.
You know you may feel lonely inyour office writing our craft,
but also you know it was, it wasawesome.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
You know you may feel lonely in your office writing
every day, but in fact you havea pretty strong niche community
that really understands whatyour life is like For anyone
listening in.
Who wants to be a ghostwriter.
What advice would you give tothem?
What would I?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
say there are a lot of us, but there is a great need
for ghostwriting.
I mean, a lot of books that areout there on the market now are
ghostwritten, more than youprobably think.
Gotham ghostwriters there's away to get on their list, so
they have jobs, come up and thenthey kind of there's a way to
get on their list, so they havejobs, come up and then they kind
(45:05):
of they have this whole pool ofus right that they can assign
projects to.
So there's several groups likethat.
I think there's like bindersfor ghostwriters, where you can
get on these group chats andjust kind of see the kind of
conversations that people arehaving and you might be able to
not all of them are member based, but get invited into those to
(45:26):
wade in, meet some other people,maybe field some questions that
you have.
It's an interesting industry,one that I didn't even know
existed before I fell into it,and it's been.
It's been great.
I mean, like I said, I've metsome really, really interesting
people and learned about topicsthat I would have never known
about.
You're writing for someone else.
(45:50):
You're there as their supportperson, it's their book, it's
their name, it's their story.
So there is some detachmentthat you just have to have.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
That's so interesting .
So, just as a final questionfor anybody that is coming out
of college today, because weknow the world has really
changed and a lot of the thingsthat we did we were able to get
in before the internet or beforecell phones or social media or
anything existed.
So the world has become noisier, more expensive, and I see a
(46:20):
lot of challenges that youngpeople are facing today.
So this is a question that Iask everybody what life wisdom
would you give to anyone who isgraduating today?
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Well, I have a complicated relationship with
technology.
A lot is changing because of AIand and the publishing, you
know, and I don't think we'veseen where we're going to end up
with all that.
But I would say for people thatare interested in getting
involved in writing that I don'tthink there is a replacement
(46:52):
for humans writing human stories.
So not to give up on that andwe're not replaceable and we all
have important things to say.
I think one of the things thatI've learned about myself sort
of late and I write about this abit in Giving Up the Ghost is
(47:12):
about how we are all our ownlight source and it doesn't
serve anyone, it doesn't serveourselves, to dim and to not use
our voice in whatever way thatis.
I'm not only talking aboutwriting, but I think, especially
now, it's so important torecognize the importance of
speaking up and to use it inwhichever way you feel pulled.
(47:36):
I mean, that's really generaladvice, but I think it's really
important.
And it is a crowded space.
I can't imagine being someonegraduating from college now.
What a complicated world it is.
I mean, there's opportunitiesnow that there weren't maybe for
us when we graduated.
So there's pros and cons, butin terms of crowded space and
(47:56):
competition and technologycrowding out jobs.
I would say just remember thatthere is no you other you and
we're all here for some reason.
I know that might sound corny,but there's something that
you're here to do or say orfacilitate or support, and
(48:18):
that's your job.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
I think that's great advice.
I don't think that's generic atall, and I think it's so
important to, as you were saying, learn to express yourself, to
share what you're thinking andto not shy away from letting
your voice be heard.
So I think that's lovely advice.
Samantha, thank you so much forcoming on and giving us a
glimpse into what the world ofghostwriting is like.
(48:42):
I've never spoken to aghostwriter before and this was
very interesting, so thank you.
Thanks for having me Today'skey takeaways.
It's often the case that youcan't see the full picture when
you start, but when you lookback, the dots connect.
So follow your curiosities,even when the path isn't yet
(49:05):
clear.
If you want someone to open up,whether in an interview or
everyday conversation, genuinecuriosity is the fastest way to
build connection.
If you're an aspiring authorbut you don't know where to
start, make a list of books thatreally resonate with you and
inspire you and might be thetype of book that you want to
(49:26):
write.
Likewise, pay attention to whatyou don't want to write.
Be specific about what it isthat you like or don't like,
whether it's the descriptions,the dialogue, the setting or the
format.
These clues will help shapeyour own style and angle.
The next six key takeaways arewriting lessons that cross over
(49:47):
into business.
Capture ideas in the moment.
Carry a notebook.
Jot down phrases, scenes orquestions when they appear.
This is just as true forbusiness ideation.
We never know when an idea maypop into our minds, and it's
much easier to jot it down inthe moment than to hope to
(50:08):
remember later on in the day.
So get a notebook.
Build the muscle of writing.
Set aside time each week, evenjust 30 minutes, to write.
Writing is a practice, and itwill reveal things to you while
you write.
This, too, can be true for anyskill you hope to develop.
(50:28):
If you have a goal, whether it'sa book or a business, deadlines
create momentum.
They help move your ideas fromimagination into eventual form,
whether you're writing a book orlaunching a business.
Research what's already selling.
If there's demand, then there'sspace.
Ask yourself what's my uniquespin?
What perspective or voice do Ibring that no one else can Try?
(50:53):
To look into the future.
What is being sold now, whatwas being sold in the past, and
how might this be different inthe future?
Know your why this one is soimportant, whether you're
building a business or startinga manuscript.
Clarity comes from asking whydo I want to write this or why
(51:17):
do I want to create thisbusiness.
It's nearly impossible to comeup with something that's never
been done.
Don't get deflated by that,because no one else is you.
Your story, perspective andvoice are your edge.
If you're aiming fortraditional publishing, start
building your platform.
(51:37):
You don't need to do everything.
Just choose three strategiesthat feel sustainable and
aligned with your energy.
You could do live or virtualevents, a newsletter or sub
stack, podcast interviews,social media presence, articles
or essays.
The list goes on and on.
So choose what feelssustainable.
(51:59):
If you have a part of your story, a memory that keeps on playing
in your mind, try writing itout to help get it out of your
head.
In a similar fashion, if you'veexperienced grief from the loss
of a family member or friend,try having a conversation with
your loved one.
Just get quiet and write downwhat you would say and what you
(52:21):
think he or she may say back toyou in an extended dialogue.
You are your own light sourceand it doesn't serve you to dim
your voice out of fear orself-doubt.
Your expression is acontribution to this world.
There is no other you.
No one else has your exact mixof experiences, insight, voice
(52:45):
or personality, and that alonemakes your story worth telling.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McGinty, and today'sguest is Samantha Rose, an Emmy
Award-winning television writerand three-time New York Times
bestselling ghostwriter.
She's the founder of Yellow SkyMedia, a literary development
company that collaborates withcelebrities, experts and
(00:28):
industry leaders to bring theirpowerful stories to life.
Recently, samantha stepped intothe spotlight with her own
memoir Giving Up the Ghost, anexploration of the grief and
unanswered questions thatfollowed her mother's suicide.
Her work has reached readersaround the world, with projects
translated into more than 20languages and featured in the
(00:50):
Wall Street Journal, harper'sBazaar Time and selected as
Reese's Book Club and Targetbookmarked picks.
You can find links to connectwith Samantha in the episode's
description.
If you've been tuning in, youknow this show isn't about
selling anything.
(01:10):
It's about sharing meaningfulstories and learning along the
way.
If how I built my smallbusiness has brought you any
insight, inspiration or evenjust a spark of curiosity, there
are a few simple ways you cansupport the journey Follow the
show, share your favoriteepisode with a friend or leave a
(01:31):
quick review.
Each one truly helps me growthis show.
Thank you, let's get started.
How did you first get intowriting and then how did that
turn into Yellow Sky Media?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Well, I have always enjoyed writing.
I majored in journalism in SanFrancisco State and then at
Sonoma State, so I've alwaysbeen a writer and I come from
writers.
My mother was a writer and alsomy stepfather, so I grew up
around a lot of journalists, soI guess it was a calling or it
was what I knew.
I was living in Austin, texas,and well, what happened is I
(02:15):
started writing a blog back inlike 2005, when writing blogs
was kind of new and hip and noteveryone in the world had a blog
, and I was a new stepmother andthere was a whole mommy blog
explosion on the scene at thatpoint, but there weren't a lot
of stepmothers blogging, and soI thought there was a little
(02:36):
niche opportunity for me there.
So I started a stepmother's blogcalled stepmother's milk, and I
think that was around the timeI decided to just also create a
company around it.
Not knowing where it would go,I had great dreams of it
becoming some big thing.
It did actually launch me intowriting books.
So I was approached by a NewYork agent pretty early on in
(02:59):
the blogging journey who askedif I wanted to write a book, and
so that was my first memoir,called the Package Deal based on
that blog and then I parlayedthat into ghostwriting, so
Yellow Sky Media became sort ofthe parent company that I did
all these things under.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
That first book that you published?
Was that under your name, orwas that co-authored?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, that was under a pen name, because I was
writing my blog under a pen name, izzy Rose, just to be kind of
to protect my family.
I was writing about my stepsonsand my new husband and myself,
and so that book was writtenunder that pen name.
And then all my ghostwritingbooks if I get cover credit or
credit in the acknowledgementsit's Samantha Rose.
(03:45):
So it's been interesting thatthe ghostwritten books are under
my name, but my first memoirwas under a different name and
then my new.
My new memoir that just cameout is finally just my own,
written under Samantha Rose.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
That must feel so good.
It does feel good Well.
So I do want to get to yourbook at some point, but I want
to just dive in a little bitmore on this ghost writing that
you started doing.
I'm just wondering.
So let's say that a businessowner contacted you and just
felt that they had a verycompelling story or insights
that they wanted to share.
(04:20):
Like, what is your process tohelp pull that story out of them
if they're not a naturalstoryteller or a writer?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
That's how I get a lot of clients.
These are folks who aren'twriters.
Typically, they have a greatidea.
They have a company or aproduct or a business or a life
legacy story that they want toget down on paper, but they
don't have the time or theknow-how to do it.
So ghostwriters most often wewrite the entirety of the book,
(04:53):
so it's not collaborative in theway that some people might
think, where they're writing alittle and then I'm writing a
little.
Most everything I've writtenI've written exclusively for the
client I'm working with, and sothe way that happens is through
creating a really intimaterelationship with a person, like
we're doing now.
We talk a lot either on zoom oron the phone regularly, and so
(05:18):
I'm getting their story andtheir voice in my head.
Most every book I've writtenand I have 17 books now under my
belt are first person narrative, so I'm writing as my client,
and I'm able to do that bygetting to know them and
listening really closely to whatthey have to say and then
(05:39):
channeling it back onto the page.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
How long does that process take for you to really
feel like you know the person'svoice and you can maintain that
for the duration of the book.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
I can get a sense pretty quickly.
I have an ear for dialogue andjust the pacing of how people
speak and I remember dialoguereally well.
I remember how people saythings and what they say, which
my son and some of my friendsfind really irritating.
So I can get a sense prettyquickly.
(06:13):
Although it's, it's helpfulwhen people are open, right.
So the the projects that havebeen the most difficult are when
people withhold and and theydon't want to engage in open
conversation because I can't.
I can't start to hear you sortof as my own voice unless you
(06:34):
open up to me.
But I've had most.
All my clients have been ableto do that.
It's really an amazingpartnership because there's so
much trust involved.
I'm still quite astonished thatpeople are able and willing to
open up and tell their story andallow me to write it down for
them.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
What you're saying really resonates with me because
, as a podcast host, of courseI'm hoping that my guest can
feel vulnerable enough that theycan speak authentically and
with heart.
I'm curious to know what sortof methods or questions or types
of conversations you have withyour clients in order to get
(07:18):
them to feel comfortable enoughto go deep.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
It's just meeting and engaging in conversation.
I do ask a lot of questions.
I'm really curious about peopleand maybe that's the journalism
in me.
People speak and it brings up aquestion in me and I'll say,
well, what about this?
Or, you know, can you tell memore about that?
I've also.
I'm a big proponent of therapy.
(07:43):
I've had lots of therapists inmy life and I think, without
realizing it, there's someosmosis that's happened there,
where I'm able to I don't knowask meaningful and pointed
questions or notice things aboutwhat people are saying that
point us in a new direction.
I've had some of my clients sayyou're more like a therapist
(08:05):
than a book coach.
I don't know.
I think it's.
There has to be a chemistrythere where both of us are
willing to just talk and behonest, and that's when we get
the best stuff.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And I think that when you mentioned curiosity, I feel
like a deep curiosity about theperson that you're speaking
with is always helpful, Like Ifind that every single person
that I speak with is absolutelyfascinating and they have
something to share or teach meand share In a similar way,
(08:43):
people have said after theseinterviews that it's like
business therapy.
So when somebody is telling youtheir story or they're
answering your questions, whatdetails are you looking for that
you believe make it resonatewith readers?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
I look for interesting dialogue.
I listen for details about astory that might seem
inconsequential or maybe evenboring to the person telling
them, because we don't alwaysnotice the details in our own
stories because we know them sowell.
So I might say no, no, no, tellme more about that, like you
(09:24):
mentioned that you were wearing,you know a green shirt or
whatever.
So I might say no, no, no, tellme more about that, like you
mentioned that you were wearing,you know a green shirt or
whatever.
So I pull out details.
I think little moments like thatwhat someone's wearing, or
where they're sitting, or youknow what they're drinking, or
it can seem like very surfacestuff, but details bring stories
to life.
I also I love dialogue, so I'llencourage us to talk out who
(09:48):
said what in a scene.
Again, when people starttelling me what they want to
talk about or what their storyis or what their message is, it
brings questions to the frontfor me, and so we'll just, we'll
just tease them out.
You know, I'll go as far as Ican with them until they say are
we done now?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And what are the genres that you specialize in?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I write a lot of personal growth, spirituality,
there's business, leadership,personal growth, inspirational.
I've done memoir, I've donesome parenting, I've done a lot
of different things nutrition,lifestyle.
I steer away from heavy scienceand politics and history only
(10:35):
because my brain doesn't holdthat information very well and
so it's harder for me to captureit and then relay it back onto
the page.
I can do it, but it's harderfor me.
I'm much more attuned topeople's intimate thoughts and
feelings and reflections.
I can capture that much betterfor some reason.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
So if someone wanted to write a book and we know a
lot of people out in the worldreally do want to write a book
and they don't know where tobegin and they're not at a place
where they're ready to hire aghostwriter what kind of advice
would you give them?
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I would suggest they make a list of books that really
resonate and that inspire themand might be the type of thing
they want to write.
Similarly, what are the thingsthat you don't want to write?
I often give this assignment,especially for people writing
book proposals.
You know, go into the bookstoreor pick books from your own
(11:29):
library that have really movedyou, not that you're going to
write that book, but just to geta sense of the kind of work you
want to do.
And this could be is it aboutthe setting or the scenes in
these books?
Is it about the characters orthe dialogue?
Like, what are the pieces andelements that really resonate
(11:49):
with you that you would like tomimic or mirror in your own
writing?
I think that's just a goodclarifying exercise.
It's about taking notes.
I have a I'm a big list maker.
I buy stacks of post-its andI'm always writing down just
ideas, and then I create likebucket lists of separate
(12:12):
documents, of themes in the bookor settings or different people
, and I just start puttingrandom pieces of information in
there and they're kind of ajumbled mess, but they're at
least organized in sections.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But to just start getting things written down by
like topic, like during the day,as you're going about the day.
If you have a great thought,you just jot it down.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Like bucket lists of things, songs that inspire you.
Like the book that I just wrote, a lot of songs were inspiring
different things that I waswriting at different times and I
just so I had a separate listof music to go back to to kind
of jog my memory about.
Oh right, that that idea about,or the song title jogged
(12:58):
something in me that I wanted towrite a work into a chapter
head per se.
But I'm just like accumulatinginformation and keeping it sort
of messy, but in an organizedmess, instead of just one big
document, I think makes peoplefeel crazy and like this can
never become anything.
So I'm also a fan of table ofcontents and just giving
yourself grace that they'refluid and they can change at any
(13:20):
time.
But to just start thinking interms of flow what happens first
, what happens next and oh, Idefinitely know I want a scene
where this happens I'm going toput it in right here now and
maybe it'll move later but tostart working with an organized
table of contents some peoplehate that.
I mean, the other thing isputting yourself on a schedule
(13:45):
and again, this isn't alwayspopular advice because a lot of
people say it and I thinkaspiring writers want to work
around like no, I don't want toput myself on a schedule, tell
me something else to do.
But you have got to carve outtime to just sit down or saddle
up to your standup desk andwrite, whether that's a whole
(14:05):
day a week or one hour a week.
But it's protected time thatyou do not interfere with,
because I do this too.
You know, waiting for thisfantasy moment later down the
road where I'm going to have sixweeks of open-ended time and
I'm going to sit down and write.
Just, it doesn't happen formost people and it just doesn't.
And so I write and read everyday.
(14:28):
I mean, I also write for aliving, so I have to write every
day.
But even it does build onitself.
I mean, even one hour a week,week after week, does build on
itself in not just in creatingthe content building on itself,
but building the muscle ofwriting builds on the repetition
(14:50):
of doing it, and it can be hardto get started, but I mean I
feel like getting started isreally the hardest piece.
Once you have built it intoyour schedule in some kind of
way, it does get easier.
I promise it really does.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So are you suggesting that people just write about
anything?
They find a journal prompt andthey just start answering it.
If they want to write abouttheir day, they just write.
Or or are you meaning to bedeliberate about, once they've
sort of thought about theirtable of contents or their
outline, that they sort of picka topic within there and and try
to tease that out?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I would say either one.
Okay, because the other magicalthing that happens with writing
is that it reveals things toyou that you did not know were
there, and I discovered this inthe book that just came out.
There were things that I didn'teven know about that story, or
about myself, or about therelationship with my mother that
revealed themselves in thewriting.
And it is just.
One of the magical aspects ofcreativity is that it surprises
(15:50):
you.
You know, even though it'sbeing generated by you, there's
something unknown that will cometo the surface, and it usually
will.
It'll work itself out on thepage.
If you give yourself the timeto do it, it will.
So, even if you think, oh, I'msitting down to write this and
(16:10):
it feels random, I don't knowwhere it's going, I don't know
where it fits, if you invest thetime in it, I think it will
tell you where it wants to be.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
And if somebody did this who was again moving
towards a goal of eventuallywanting to publish a book?
And they have pages and pagesand pages of this writing, but
it's somewhat incoherent, itdoesn't flow well.
Is that a point at which theywould come to you, or do they
need to polish it further beforeapproaching you?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
I work with people at all different stages.
So I work with folks who arewriting book proposals and they
haven't done different stages.
So I work with folks who arewriting book proposals and they
haven't done anything yet.
So I coach them through thatprocess.
I work with some people whohave a full manuscript, like
you're describing.
That's, that's somewhere, butit needs a lot of organization
and I help them with structureand organization and flow.
Some people just need an editor, you know, and their stuff is
(17:07):
pretty clean coming in.
So I work with people at alldifferent stages.
I think the hardest stage towork with people is just from
concept.
They have an idea but theyhaven't written anything yet.
I like to work with people atthat stage and I am currently
working with a couple like thatand I am currently working with
(17:37):
a couple like that.
But getting over that hurdle ofstarting is, I think, the
hardest.
So a coach does help in thatcapacity because I, you know, I
keep you accountable more thananything with you weekly or
biweekly to keep you accountablemoving forward.
A lot, of, a lot of people justwant permission to write.
A lot of folks I think if it'snot your profession, it feels
indulgent maybe, or there's somany other things to make time
(17:59):
for, so you don't make time tosit down and write.
But having a coach to say, no,your story is important, what
you're telling me feels relevantand important to say, so make
the time to do it.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
How long average?
I know this is probably a verydifficult question to answer,
but how long can that processreally take before you feel like
you've got the story or thatthey have their story?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
If I'm the ghostwriter on it, I usually
turn full books within sixmonths.
Whoa, but that's.
You know, that's writing everyday and not for an hour, and
that's five or six or sevenhours a day.
It's a full-time job.
I've been doing it for almost20 years, so I can work pretty
quickly for somebody else.
I mean, I usually talk to themat the onset, let's have an end
(18:49):
goal in mind and then we workbackwards from there.
I think it's important to havea deadline.
Deadlines are important.
As much as we might hate them,they do keep us moving forward
and motivating us, and they canmove.
You know we'll make room forvacations and emergencies and
things that come up, but let'slet's have a deadline and work
(19:09):
backwards from that.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
And then how do you decide which publishing route to
take?
So, of the 17 books that youwrote, did you do proposals for
all of them?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yes, most all of them .
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Which type of publishing did you choose for
those?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So all the books that I have ghostwritten came in
through an agent and have beentraditionally published.
So most of my publishingbackground is with the big five.
I think it's the big five, no,I think there's only four.
Now it's hard to keep trackbecause publishing consolidates
(19:44):
like everything else.
So those have been.
They come in through an agentusually and I write the proposal
and then the agent sells them.
Now a lot of my coachingclients aren't agented or they
don't have a publishingagreement before I meet with
them, and hybrid publishing andself-publishing is is really
popular.
(20:04):
Some people really want to betraditionally published and that
can still happen, but there areoptions now that weren't before
, which is great.
So if you have a story to tell,you can tell it, you can get
published.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, it's interesting how somehow
traditional publishing has beenable to maintain its prominence.
Well, I guess it's changing now, but it does feel like the
whole business model has shifted.
From an outside perspectiveLike I don't really know what
I'm talking about because I'mnot in the industry, but from an
(20:42):
outside perspective and frompeople I've spoken to who are in
the industry it feels likethere's a lot of shifting that's
taken place.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
There is a lot of shifting and I think it's good
news for writers, becausethere's more opportunity to get
published now than before.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yeah, that's.
It's a nice way to look at it.
I guess there's also a lot ofnoise to compete with.
So, that was the other thingthat I was wondering is that
when you are helping to createthese stories and you know what
all of the competing titles arethat are on the shelves and just
all of the different anglesthat are being taken, how do you
(21:23):
find that balance, that anglethat is unique, to carve a space
on that shelf that reallystands out?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
It's tricky.
I mean and I follow thatexercise I mentioned earlier I
tend to go to bookstores.
I still love to go to my localindie and just see what's on the
shelves and to see what isselling.
It's good news when what you'rewriting has already been
written slightly right, becauseit tells you that it has a
market, it has a readership andthat it's saleable.
(21:55):
So that you're competing withother books in the space is okay
.
You just want to find the one,like you say, the unique aspect
that makes you pop out.
Sometimes that's thepersonality of the author.
Sometimes there's, you know, atweak on messaging that's
already out there, but there's anew way that they're looking at
(22:15):
it.
Sometimes you know it could beanything.
Really, oftentimes it's acombination of those things.
But you got to do your homeworka little bit and study, study
the market and see what peopleare reading.
Publishing a lot is aboutforecasting what people are
going to be reading in a year.
You know future casting, andthat's difficult, like it's hard
(22:37):
to know that.
So there's some guesswork thatgoes into it.
But I think that there's a lotto be learned by looking at what
is current now and what is soldin the past and then really
thinking about what is it that Ihave that's different, or why?
Why do I want to write thisbook like what is my, what's the
(22:57):
why for me?
And and making sure that thatis front and center yeah, yeah,
that's a.
That's a good way to approach itand to think about it, because
Because there's a million booksout there, right On every topic
and subject, so it's hard tofind something that hasn't ever
been done, and that's fine.
I think people sometimes getdeflated by that.
(23:18):
Well, it's already out there,someone already wrote a book on
this and yes, they have.
But no one has written yourbook.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
What about the work that needs to be done outside of
writing?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
So you know establishing an audience or
having a newsletter or blog,whatever it is to help support
your eventual book.
Like how important do you feel?
That that stuff is not for meso much to worry about.
We do talk about it because itis a reality and the book that
just came out, that I wrote mymemoir Giving Up the Ghost my
journey for that has beeninteresting because it has
tapped into that question.
So I have a background inpublishing.
(24:04):
I know a lot of editors andfolks in that world.
As a ghostwriter though, I hadnot written my own book under my
own name ever and I knew thatplatform was going to be an
issue and it was.
It was what set me apart fromgetting a big, big publishing
(24:25):
deal and not.
I ended up going with a kind ofa hybrid traditional publisher
where platform wasn't asimportant.
So it is something people needto think about, and if you don't
have one, you just have tobuild one.
And I've been trying to justfocus on a few different things
because there's a lot that youcan do.
(24:47):
You can get on the festivalcircuit, you can have a
newsletter, you can have apodcast, you can do live events,
you can do virtual events.
I mean you can spend all day onthis stuff and we only have so
much bandwidth and emotionalenergy for these things.
And finances, I mean.
That's part of it too.
So I steer people to thinkabout what are three things that
(25:09):
you'd be willing to do.
Increase your social presence.
Do you want to write?
Do you want to?
You know, substack is a placewhere a lot of writers are now
to extend their reach, but thatrequires writing new content.
Do you have the bandwidth forthat?
Maybe you're someone that wantsto focus on meeting people in
person, and so that would meanfocusing on live events.
(25:30):
But keep it.
Keep it curated for what you're, what you're interested in
doing and available to do, can'tdo it all.
Yeah, we, whatever you have thebandwidth for and what you want
to do, because if you don't, ifyou're someone that doesn't want
to go on podcasts, then justthen.
Don't focus your energy there.
Focus it somewhere else.
(25:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So let's talk about giving up the ghost a little bit
because, as you mentioned, itwas your first book written
under your real name, and you'vehelped write 17 other books for
people.
What was the process likewriting your own book this time,
in comparison to helping otherswrite theirs?
(26:14):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I started out thinking, oh, I can turn this
sucker in six months becausethat's what I'm trained to do
and I'm writing my own story, soI don't have to interview
anyone, I don't have to thinkhow anyone else would respond to
this on the page, I can justI'll be able to do this so
quickly.
Well, I was wrong there,because I was writing about me
(26:37):
and my mother's relationship andspecifically her death.
She died by suicide.
So it was a really emotionaltime of my life and my most
meaningful relationship, and soit was not something I could
just crank out.
I realized that pretty quicklyonce I started outlining it.
And then the first chapter and Ithought, oh, wow, this is.
(26:58):
This is going to take me alittle bit longer, because I was
actually processing a lot of mygrief through the writing,
through the writing, which endedup being the most cathartic and
meaningful experience.
So it took me a bit longer.
I think I spent about a yearwriting in earnest, but I pushed
(27:18):
other projects off my plate towrite it.
I was doing what I suggestedyou don't do earlier in our
conversation, where sneaking inwriting time here and there in
between other things, and itjust wasn't happening.
So I was able to create a lotof open space to work on it.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
And I imagine, as you were saying, that the process
was very healing for you.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
It was.
It was really healing.
So I had a handful of scenesand conversations in my mind
that just kept banging around inmy head, and so I wrote those
first.
So I wrote out of order, and asI was writing them and working
them onto the page, I realizedonce they were down, they kind
(28:04):
of lifted.
They weren't so ever present,playing back in my head, which
was really freeing and reallycool actually.
So once they were on the page,they had kind of an exercise out
of my body not that I wasn'tthinking about them, but they
weren't nagging at me in thesame kind of way.
And so I realized that not onlywas I telling a story, but I
(28:25):
was really working through griefand channeling it in the best
way I knew how to do, which isthrough writing.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, it was a trauma release for you too.
Grief to me, grief and traumasort of go a little bit hand in
hand when you relive thoseexperiences in your head, the
good and the bad, and they won't, you know, leave.
And how is that process for younow that it's out and you're
choosing a few different placeswhere you can elevate your
(28:57):
platform?
But what is this post-releasebook launch space like?
What does it feel like?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
It feels good.
You know this.
So my mom passed five years agoand then I was able to find a
publisher who could launch thebook almost to the five year
anniversary date, which was sosynchronistic and amazing, and
that that just really happenedrecently.
So this story has been livingin me for five years and I've
(29:28):
been writing about it andworking it through my body and
working with therapists and I'veheld it really tight and close
to my heart and it's livedinside me and so now it's in
book form and people are readingit and I feel a lot of release
from it.
And I feel a lot of releasefrom it Having people read a
(29:50):
story.
That's so personal and I'mgetting emails from folks who
they have a parallel experienceor it's resonating on different
levels.
They can relate to littledetails that I thought were just
so my own Right and realizingno other people.
There was one woman who's likeI watch British Bake Off when
(30:13):
I'm feeling really sad, we're,so it was like a little thing
that I'd been binge watchingBritish Bake Off because I
couldn't stand to watch anythingelse when I was in the early
hours of grief.
So that has been amazing andI'm continuing to do that put
myself out there and haveconversations with people about
(30:34):
loss and love and grief andmental health and their
relationship with their mother,and so I feel like I'm in this
sweet spot of it now when youand I were emailing before and
we were speaking about our, ourgriefs, which sort of took place
in a similar timeframe, and Idon't know if I mentioned to you
(30:55):
but the reason why I startedthis podcast was because of my
dad's passing.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
So it too, has been cathartic in a different way.
You know, my dad was very muchinto continued learning and
compassion and helping otherpeople.
I wanted to live more like himand I find it to be so
fascinating how, when our lovedones pass, they can have
(31:21):
sometimes an even greater impacton our lives than when they
were here.
It's like it opens up a part ofour hearts, or opens up like
cracks.
You open a little bit, right, Iguess.
Some people they get broken.
I think I heard this analogythe other day.
They get broken, but theycreate an armored shell and then
(31:43):
they hold it all inside and forsome of us they get broken open
and they discover a new part ofthemselves from it.
Has this been your experience?
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yeah, I feel that way .
You know, it wasn't the story Iwanted to write, but it was the
story handed to me, and my momwas a writer, as I mentioned,
and I've spent most of my careerwriting, and so it felt like
the natural thing to do would beto write about the experience
and create a legacy for her.
(32:17):
You know, part of the book, abig part of the book, is these
conversations that she and Ihave when she was alive, but
also I create this dialoguebetween she and I after she has
passed, and we're having theconversations that I wanted to
have with her and, even thoughshe was no longer here, I
decided, well, we're going tohave them anyway, and I wanted
(32:39):
to give her voice to comment onwhat had happened, so that her
legacy didn't just end the dayshe passed, that it continued on
and we worked.
We worked with some of thesethings on the page, and so I
feel that it became aresponsibility to talk about.
You know, suicide is not asubject everyone wants to talk
(33:01):
about, and mental health andillness and the things that
scare us, but there areimportant conversations to have,
and if she had not died in themanner that she did, I would
probably be doing something elseright now, but because of how
she left and because of how shelived, it has created this new
chapter of my life.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
I loved what you were saying about creating dialogue
with your mother as if it weretoday, after she's passed.
I can imagine how that wouldalso feel and for me personally,
I would have a hard timedelineating between am I
creating that thought or am Iactually hearing my father?
Because there are times whenI'm just going about my day and
(33:44):
I'm just not in a space whereI'm expecting to think about him
, and but I will hear his voiceand I wonder am I really hearing
his voice?
Like, is this some sort ofconsciousness surviving without
a physical body?
Or is my brain just creating it?
And I'm pretty open to eitherone of those possibilities.
(34:04):
I don't know how you feel aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Well, I definitely raised that question in the
writing of the book and I leaveit to the reader to decide
what's going on there.
But I think ultimately itdoesn't matter.
Process and heal and come to alevel of understanding that we
(34:28):
didn't have before.
Then it doesn't matternecessarily if it's our own mind
creating the conversations orif they're inspired, divinely
inspired or, you know,visitations from beyond.
Maybe they're all three, but Idefinitely explored that a lot
in the book and I do a processof automatic writing where I'm
channeling her onto the page,much like I do when I'm
(34:49):
ghostwriting and I talk abouthow now I'm ghosting the ghost
and how isn't this interesting?
And everyone's gonna think I'mnuts, but hey, it feels really
natural and right and this is mytraining.
So let's, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, I kind of want to try that process to just see
what happens myself.
If I were to have aconversation with my dad right
now, like what would he say?
I've never thought of doingthat and I think I might try.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I encourage people to do it, it's because it's not
something that just I can do.
And I make clear in the bookI'm not a medium, I'm not a
psychic, I you know I don't haveexpertise in channeling the
dead, but I do think that we allhave the capacity to open up to
the unknown and the unseen andit really just all it requires
is opening up and engaging,getting a little quiet,
(35:41):
listening and then writing downwhat you hear.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I think I'm going to do this.
It just sounds like a funexercise, if nothing else, just
to see what happens.
So now with Yellow Sky Media,it sounds like your workload
shifts depending on the needs ofyour clients.
Can you give us a glimpse intowhat it's like?
Are you in office like?
Do you work with anybody else?
(36:05):
What are your weeks like andyour days like?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Okay, I wish it were more glamorous than it is.
I do have an office away frommy house.
I worked in a home office formany, many years and then, after
COVID, I just couldn't do itanymore.
I had great training to work athome during COVID.
Like a lot of people had tolearn very quickly how to work
(36:29):
out of their own homes.
I was well greased in thatdepartment, but after we came
out of that I thought I cannot.
I cannot do this anymore.
So I have a really great officedown in downtown Petaluma that
I go to most days.
I my days are structured.
I try to get in by, you know, 9or 10 o'clock depending, after
I drop my kid off at school andI write until I have to pick him
(36:51):
up.
So not quite banker's hours,but pretty close.
I write Monday through Friday.
Now some of that time is spentreading work that clients have
written and I'm reading andediting for them.
So I'm not completely head downwriting all that time.
It depends.
I'm all referral based.
(37:12):
So right now my workload isprimarily working with a client
on a ghostwriting project andthen filling in with coaching,
and it's really fun.
I mean I meet reallyinteresting people.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
How long did it take you to get to this point Like?
I imagine that the early daysof yellow sky media were a lot
slower, as would be expected ofany new business, but to reach
this level like?
How long did it take for you toget to such a comfortable pace?
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Well, I guess I was lucky that from the get-go I I
had a book project and then Ijust kept leapfrogging.
I had an agent that wasbringing me work, so I give her
a lot of credit, for as I waswrapping up one project she'd
bring another one in through thedoor.
And so I was.
As I was finishing one, I wasstarting on the next, and I did
that for probably 15 yearswithout any break, sometimes
(38:05):
working at two books at a time,but always almost starting and
finishing a book a year.
That's starting a proposal,proposal sales, writing a full
length book and then by pub date.
So just one after the other,after the other, and then it was
in maybe 22.
So not too far back.
(38:26):
I started working as a coach,more filling in those gaps, and
I wanted to create space towrite my own book.
So I was only able to do that,to pull back on writing a full
length title.
You know always have one that Iwas in and then filling in with
clients.
But I think that the clientcoaching work that that took
(38:48):
years to to get to a point wherepeople would come to me just on
referral, you know.
So that when I did haveopenings in my schedule that
there was always someone.
I usually have like a two tothree month waiting period for
coaching clients to come in.
Wow, not always, not always.
There's some where I'm like, oh, what are we doing here?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Well, so I did want to know a little bit more about
this type of a business for you,like what are the highest highs
and what are the lowest lows?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Well, I think the highest highs is that writing
for me anyways a really magicalcreative process where you get
to that place of flow, you know,and sort of time and space
disappears and you're just in inthe writing for hours there's.
There's a lot of times whereyou know I look up and it's been
(39:41):
four hours I've been standingat my desk writing and I'm like
where did the time go?
And oh, I look back atsomething I've written and think
, oh, that's pretty good.
I don't actually rememberwriting that.
You know that that flow state,if you can get into it, is a.
It's a pretty privileged andlovely way to make a living,
whether that's whatever you do,whatever kind of creative form,
(40:03):
so that's that's the high.
Do whatever kind of creativeform, so that's that's the high.
And I get to make my ownschedule, even though people
think, oh, writers have all thisflexibility and you know you're
, you get to go in whenever youwant, you get to.
If you want to just take theday off, you can.
Or if you decide you want totake a hike in the middle of the
day, you know you're your ownboss and I've never given myself
permission to live that way.
(40:24):
I'm not sure why, but I'm apretty structured gal, but
ultimately I get to make thechoice to be structured, so I
guess there's something freeingin that, I'd say.
The low is that writing is avery solitary pursuit and the
solitude piece of it that isrequired to get the job done can
(40:44):
get kind of lonely, of it thatis required to get the job done
can get kind of lonely.
And so I have to reallychallenge myself to connect and
engage outside of my laptop whenthe workday is over and engage
in the world, and that'ssomething I continue to work on.
I have these fantasiessometimes of you know being in
an office where people aregathering and chatting over you
(41:06):
know lunch and you know there'swork events, and I've probably
watched too many sitcoms wherethat happens and maybe that's
not really the reality anymore,but in my fantasy mind I'm like
everyone else is having so muchfun and I'm just here with
myself every day.
So I'm trying to continue towork on challenging myself to
integrate more people outside ofthe writing world.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, I suppose you could always increase the size
of your team if you wanted to.
So can you give us an idea ofjust how a ghostwriter earns
income?
Is this a per book fee, or doyou get a cut of the performance
of the book, or do you, or isit a combination of both?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
This is a great question.
It comes up a lot in theghostwriting community and a lot
of us are working to have moreof a standardized pace scale so
that there isn't such a largediscrepancy between one ghost
and the next.
I mean, certainly there are.
There are those of us who'vebeen doing it for longer than
the newbies.
But how does it work?
Typically is I get to ask for apercentage of the advance and we
(42:13):
set that up ahead of time apercentage of the advance, and
that includes then royalties andoften foreign rights.
Sometimes it makes more senseto ask for a flat rate for the
whole project going in, butalways determining this ahead of
time, usually in the proposalphase.
(42:33):
The proposal is usually aseparate entity and there's a
range of what people charge, buttypically between like five and
$25,000 to write a proposal.
And then my coaching isdifferent and that's usually
hourly but I charge in a blockof hours.
So I found that this works well.
(42:54):
It forces people to commit to acertain amount of time, not an
outrageous amount like 10, orcommit to 10 or 20 hours and pay
for them upfront, like youwould for a gym membership, and
then it keeps you accountable tome to show up and then it
reserves space in my schedule.
That has worked well.
I know a number of ghostwriters.
(43:14):
It's pretty standard working inthat way.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
I can imagine a community of ghostwriters
getting together and that justsounds like it would be a
fascinating room to walk into,hearing what you all would be
talking about.
I just think that it would be afascinating room to walk into,
hearing what you all would betalking about.
I just think that that would befascinating.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
It is pretty fun.
You know I didn't know anyother ghostwriters for almost
the 10 years or so that I wasdoing it and I thought I was the
only weirdo on the planet thatdid this kind of work and come
to find out there are many, many, many of us.
I think it was last year or theyear before and they're doing
it again.
This year was the firstconvention of ghostwriters in
New York, put on by Gothamghostwriters, which is a sort of
(43:53):
a big collection ofghostwriters and there were I
can't remember exactly maybeunder 500, but all of us in one,
one room together and it wasreally pretty cool.
There are a group of us thatadmitted after the full day that
it felt really weird.
You know to be amongst so manyof us because we're ghost
(44:14):
writers and you know a lot ofwriters are natural introverts,
so it was just felt very, veryexternal and vulnerable to be so
public about our craft.
But also you know it was, itwas awesome.
You know you may feel lonely inyour office writing our craft,
but also you know it was, it wasawesome.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
You know you may feel lonely in your office writing
every day, but in fact you havea pretty strong niche community
that really understands whatyour life is like For anyone
listening in.
Who wants to be a ghostwriter.
What advice would you give tothem?
What would I?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
say there are a lot of us, but there is a great need
for ghostwriting.
I mean, a lot of books that areout there on the market now are
ghostwritten, more than youprobably think.
Gotham ghostwriters there's away to get on their list, so
they have jobs, come up and thenthey kind of there's a way to
get on their list, so they havejobs, come up and then they kind
(45:05):
of they have this whole pool ofus right that they can assign
projects to.
So there's several groups likethat.
I think there's like bindersfor ghostwriters, where you can
get on these group chats andjust kind of see the kind of
conversations that people arehaving and you might be able to
not all of them are member based, but get invited into those to
(45:26):
wade in, meet some other people,maybe field some questions that
you have.
It's an interesting industry,one that I didn't even know
existed before I fell into it,and it's been.
It's been great.
I mean, like I said, I've metsome really, really interesting
people and learned about topicsthat I would have never known
about.
You're writing for someone else.
(45:50):
You're there as their supportperson, it's their book, it's
their name, it's their story.
So there is some detachmentthat you just have to have.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
That's so interesting .
So, just as a final questionfor anybody that is coming out
of college today, because weknow the world has really
changed and a lot of the thingsthat we did we were able to get
in before the internet or beforecell phones or social media or
anything existed.
So the world has become noisier, more expensive, and I see a
(46:20):
lot of challenges that youngpeople are facing today.
So this is a question that Iask everybody what life wisdom
would you give to anyone who isgraduating today?
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Well, I have a complicated relationship with
technology.
A lot is changing because of AIand and the publishing, you
know, and I don't think we'veseen where we're going to end up
with all that.
But I would say for people thatare interested in getting
involved in writing that I don'tthink there is a replacement
(46:52):
for humans writing human stories.
So not to give up on that andwe're not replaceable and we all
have important things to say.
I think one of the things thatI've learned about myself sort
of late and I write about this abit in Giving Up the Ghost is
(47:12):
about how we are all our ownlight source and it doesn't
serve anyone, it doesn't serveourselves, to dim and to not use
our voice in whatever way thatis.
I'm not only talking aboutwriting, but I think, especially
now, it's so important torecognize the importance of
speaking up and to use it inwhichever way you feel pulled.
(47:36):
I mean, that's really generaladvice, but I think it's really
important.
And it is a crowded space.
I can't imagine being someonegraduating from college now.
What a complicated world it is.
I mean, there's opportunitiesnow that there weren't maybe for
us when we graduated.
So there's pros and cons, butin terms of crowded space and
(47:56):
competition and technologycrowding out jobs.
I would say just remember thatthere is no you other you and
we're all here for some reason.
I know that might sound corny,but there's something that
you're here to do or say orfacilitate or support, and
(48:18):
that's your job.
Speaker 1 (48:19):
I think that's great advice.
I don't think that's generic atall, and I think it's so
important to, as you were saying, learn to express yourself, to
share what you're thinking andto not shy away from letting
your voice be heard.
So I think that's lovely advice.
Samantha, thank you so much forcoming on and giving us a
glimpse into what the world ofghostwriting is like.
(48:42):
I've never spoken to aghostwriter before and this was
very interesting, so thank you.
Thanks for having me Today'skey takeaways.
It's often the case that youcan't see the full picture when
you start, but when you lookback, the dots connect.
So follow your curiosities,even when the path isn't yet
(49:05):
clear.
If you want someone to open up,whether in an interview or
everyday conversation, genuinecuriosity is the fastest way to
build connection.
If you're an aspiring authorbut you don't know where to
start, make a list of books thatreally resonate with you and
inspire you and might be thetype of book that you want to
(49:26):
write.
Likewise, pay attention to whatyou don't want to write.
Be specific about what it isthat you like or don't like,
whether it's the descriptions,the dialogue, the setting or the
format.
These clues will help shapeyour own style and angle.
The next six key takeaways arewriting lessons that cross over
(49:47):
into business.
Capture ideas in the moment.
Carry a notebook.
Jot down phrases, scenes orquestions when they appear.
This is just as true forbusiness ideation.
We never know when an idea maypop into our minds, and it's
much easier to jot it down inthe moment than to hope to
(50:08):
remember later on in the day.
So get a notebook.
Build the muscle of writing.
Set aside time each week, evenjust 30 minutes, to write.
Writing is a practice, and itwill reveal things to you while
you write.
This, too, can be true for anyskill you hope to develop.
(50:28):
If you have a goal, whether it'sa book or a business, deadlines
create momentum.
They help move your ideas fromimagination into eventual form,
whether you're writing a book orlaunching a business.
Research what's already selling.
If there's demand, then there'sspace.
Ask yourself what's my uniquespin?
What perspective or voice do Ibring that no one else can Try?
(50:53):
To look into the future.
What is being sold now, whatwas being sold in the past, and
how might this be different inthe future?
Know your why this one is soimportant, whether you're
building a business or startinga manuscript.
Clarity comes from asking whydo I want to write this or why
(51:17):
do I want to create thisbusiness.
It's nearly impossible to comeup with something that's never
been done.
Don't get deflated by that,because no one else is you.
Your story, perspective andvoice are your edge.
If you're aiming fortraditional publishing, start
building your platform.
(51:37):
You don't need to do everything.
Just choose three strategiesthat feel sustainable and
aligned with your energy.
You could do live or virtualevents, a newsletter or sub
stack, podcast interviews,social media presence, articles
or essays.
The list goes on and on.
So choose what feelssustainable.
(51:59):
If you have a part of your story, a memory that keeps on playing
in your mind, try writing itout to help get it out of your
head.
In a similar fashion, if you'veexperienced grief from the loss
of a family member or friend,try having a conversation with
your loved one.
Just get quiet and write downwhat you would say and what you
(52:21):
think he or she may say back toyou in an extended dialogue.
You are your own light sourceand it doesn't serve you to dim
your voice out of fear orself-doubt.
Your expression is acontribution to this world.
There is no other you.
No one else has your exact mixof experiences, insight, voice
(52:45):
or personality, and that alonemakes your story worth telling.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
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