Join Dr. Mona Mourshed from Generation.org as we explore the magic of education and jobs. She's not your average leader; she's a trailblazer who's traveled from the Middle East to the forefront of changing careers. Our chat is packed with great insights. Mona explains how having a strong passion and connecting it with your goals can transform your life.
Let's applaud Generation.org's amazing achievements: 100,000 graduates in just two years, with 80% of them landing jobs! But it's not just about the numbers; it's about how deeply they're changing lives. We'll dive into how they keep going strong despite challenges, adapting and expanding like a nation's dreams.
We also tackle today's job market reality, talking about the importance of always learning and the gap between what companies say and do when hiring. With personal stories and career tips, this episode is a push for continuous growth and meaningful work.
Come along on this journey and discover why Generation.org gives hope to those navigating the job world. Get inspired, fuel your career dreams, and remember—the stories we share today could shape your tomorrow.
Follow Dr Mona on LinkedIn here https://www.linkedin.com/in/mona-mourshed/
Learn about Generation.org here: https://www.generation.org/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sonal (00:08):
Hey there, welcome to the how I Got Hired podcast.
I'm your host, sonal Behal,former HR director and founder
of Supercharge, and I have hadan insane corporate career that
started out in India, then movedto South America and then to
Europe, often working only inSpanish or French, which I had
to learn there from scratch.
(00:28):
Now, why do I call my careerinsane?
Because while I've experiencedcomplete highs, like working
across geographies andindustries, while navigating
challenges like needing visasponsorships, zero network
locally during recessions, andoften while being a new mom to
(00:48):
one of my two kids, I have seencareer heartbreak and multiple
layoffs, as well.
As a career strategist, Istrongly believe that a
fulfilling career is abirthright and not a privilege
for the lucky few who haveaccess to prestigious education,
capital and networks.
(01:08):
And now I am on a mission todemocratize access to high value
career advice by designingaffordable digital courses with
my YouTube channel and thispodcast right here, where we
learn together from ordinarypeople like you and me and how
they created extraordinarycareer success.
(01:29):
I hope this episode reminds youthat if they could do it, you
can do it too.
Now get ready to getsupercharged, let's go.
Hey there, welcome back,welcome back.
My guest today began her career25 years ago in the Middle East,
where she was one of thefounding members of McKinsey's
(01:52):
offices in the region.
And while over there, dr MonaMurshid founded and led
McKinsey's global educationservice line, leading research
on high performing and fastimproving, fast-improving school
systems, as well as on thechallenges of that education to
the employment journey,something she was deeply
(02:12):
involved with for over 10 years.
So in 2014, which is at thetime of this recording pretty
much 10 years ago Mona becamefounder and CEO of Generationorg
.
What is that?
This is a global nonprofit witha mission to support learners
of all ages to be trained andplaced in careers that were
(02:34):
previously beyond their reach.
How does she do that?
We're going to talk about that.
Mona has a BA from Stanford andPhD from MIT.
She holds dual Egyptian and UScitizenship.
We are going to talk about thiscareer switch and so much more.
Mona, such a pleasure.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
Pleasure to be here.
Fantastic Mona, let's getcracking right away.
(02:57):
I want to talk about the startof your career journey, like I
mentioned in the intro, atMcKinsey, and you spent the
better part of your adult lifethere.
So talk to us about.
How did this move happen?
How did you get hired there?
Mona (03:12):
So I was very keen to be able to return to the region,
the region being the Middle East, and so that was the
opportunity which I had, as bybeing part of McKinsey's Middle
East office.
And then, once I got there, thatwas a moment in time when many
(03:36):
countries in the region werereally spending efforts to
improve the literacy andnumeracy rates within the school
systems, and so I very quicklythen became very engaged in how
can you actually move schoolsystem outcomes, and you know,
(03:58):
it's very much like finding yourplace in the world.
As soon as I began working inthe education space, it just
felt like this is where I shouldbe, this is what was meant to
be, and that began my journey ineducation, and so, initially,
with a focus on K-12, so schools, you know.
And then, at the time, you willrecall that it was the moment
(04:22):
of the Arab Spring and around2010, 2011.
And that's when my attentionbegan focusing on youth
unemployment, because up untilthen, I've been very focused on
okay, if we just improveliteracy, numeracy levels, we
get students graduated,everything will be fine.
(04:44):
Numeracy level as we getstudents graduated, everything
will be fine.
But when you have 40% youthunemployment rates, things are
not fine, and so that's when Ibegan to focus more upstream, if
you will, on what do you do tobridge the education to
employment gap?
Sonal (04:58):
Perfect, perfect.
So I'm just going to pause youhere because I want to get more
detailed here.
But when you say, I want torewind, just detailed here.
But when you say, um, I want torewind just a second.
When you said education, um,and you know, you did your BA
and you did your PhD, tell mewhy the education sector, like
what about it, appealed to youbecause you probably had so many
choices in front of you I'mtalking, you know, 25, 20 years
(05:19):
ago and why this education.
Mona (05:23):
Education makes lives right.
Education is what propels youthrough social adversity.
It propels you onto a neweconomic mobility path.
I've seen that happen with myown family, and this is the path
that I would love to be a partof enabling for others.
(05:47):
You know, my father grew upwith very little in Cairo and
education was what enabled himto create a life for himself,
for my family, and there is, inmy mind, nothing more powerful.
You know so I'm very much abeliever.
(06:09):
You know, healthcare saveslives, education makes lives.
Sonal (06:13):
Oh, that is such a treatable.
Healthcare saves lives,education makes lives.
I couldn't agree more and yourdad must be so proud of you.
You know, because it's veryrelatable, what you're saying
People from our parents'generation, grandparents'
generation.
Education was such a privilege.
You know to talk about, notsomething you take for granted,
and you know when you said, youknow wanted to get back into
(06:35):
this region, it's still right,it wasn't a given Like, how did
like Mackenzie?
Like, how did you guys findeach other?
And do you remember somethingabout the interview process?
Um, and being given thisresponsibility?
It's not a, it's not a smallthing.
Like, is there something thatyou felt helped you to stand out
?
Mona (06:53):
oh, that's taking me back now many years that's the whole
idea I mean I think, um look,whenever you are engaged in
starting up any new activity,there has to be a certain amount
of passion and hustle and justjudgment and problem solving
(07:15):
that you bring to it.
And that was true in my earlydays at McKinsey.
It's true in buildinggeneration days at McKinsey.
It's true in buildinggeneration.
You have to want it very deeplyto be able to make something
happen and to bring somethinginto being that isn't today
existing.
And then you have to have agreat team of people around you
(07:37):
who are similarly minded.
So those are the things thatstand out for me.
Sonal (07:41):
Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad you talked about that because I
talked about this five years agoon a, six years ago on a
YouTube video hunger.
You either want it like reallybadly or you don't.
And and recruiters can smellthat from a mile away who's
actually window shopping and whoreally, you know, actually
(08:02):
wants this, and it shows in yourbody language, it shows in
everything that you talk about.
And do you remember in theseyears right, better part of two
decades that you were here?
What are some career highlights, some lessons that have helped
shape who you are as a leadertoday?
Mona (08:24):
Another big question.
So I would say there have beena couple of things important in
my journey to date.
One is to always have a globalperspective and not only get
stuck in your own myopic view ofwhatever it is you know.
(08:44):
So I think quite early in mycareer I was lucky to be able to
, for example, with educationsystems, to go visit education
systems across the world and tounderstand what is it like to be
in a classroom in Singapore orin Finland or in Lithuania or in
(09:04):
Brazil, whatever it may be, andso that that has always stuck
with me.
You know, just alwaysunderstand what it is like to
sit in someone else's shoes anddo not put your own pattern
recognition onto it.
See, the new pattern thatexists.
Yes, so that's one thing that'sbeen quite formative too is just
(09:27):
the importance of team.
You know there's that oldsaying that you know if you want
to go fast, go alone, but ifyou want to go far, go together,
and that's very true.
And then you have to find whois your team and who is that,
and the importance, as you thinkabout the team, of people who
(09:48):
think differently than you,because it is that point of
friction that is where greatnesshappens in terms of taking
leaps and bounds, you know.
So.
Never surround yourself withpeople who only think like you.
Deliberately surround yourselfwith people who only think like
you.
Deliberately surround yourselfwith people who think
differently than you, so thatyou are a complementary whole
(10:10):
that can go much furthertogether.
Exactly, and I think the lastthing you know, you always need
new challenge, like, never getcomfortable.
As soon as you get comfortable,you get timid, right.
So always push to what is thenext thing?
What is the next thing in orderto grow right?
(10:34):
And that you know.
I've been very blessed that youknow.
Every year there's somethingdifferent in my world that
enables me to take the skillsthat I've gained and to apply
them in a really different wayand to learn new things.
And then the final, final thingthat I'll say is you know,
learning comes from everywhere,right?
(10:55):
So I learn as much from thosewho are early in their career as
those who are more senior intheir career.
So just always be open tolearning from everyone in your
orbit.
Do not only think that learninghappens from those who are more
senior to you.
Sonal (11:16):
Yes, exactly, I think each of these are.
You know, they're so rich theydeserve.
Honestly, I think I need todouble click the.
The echo chamber effect is veryreal.
We see this in today's world.
It's a massive problem withsenior leaders, because they
surround themselves with, yes,men and and people who agree, um
, and they don't see obstaclesbecause nobody talks about them,
(11:40):
right, and and uh, patternrecognition, what is normal?
Right, and I think what you'resaying goes deeper, like the
day-to-day.
She has an accent.
She has.
She has an accent compared towhat?
Because pattern recognition.
What you're saying is we centerourselves as the norm and then
everything else.
Then look at it from acompletely different angle and I
(12:00):
think what you said is really,really important.
So, if I'm talking to thelistener right now, you were
like, oh, this is cool.
No, no, hold on rewind 120seconds and listen to that part
again, because it was reallyrelevant.
Um, comfort is the enemy ofgrowth.
When you get comfortable, youget timid.
You're right.
We have lots of fear when andwe come from uncomfortable ego
(12:22):
loves that.
Don't get me out there.
It's, it's too scary.
Uh, I'm so warm and cozy in myblanket right now.
I don't want to go out there inthe cold or you know, in
unknown circumstances.
And, lastly, learning.
If you have, you know, less orno ego.
You can learn from your mentees, you learn from students, you
(12:43):
learn from children, you learnfrom sources that you don't
think are traditional sources ofwisdom, um so that's beautiful,
beautiful.
Mona (12:52):
I also learn from my daughter every day.
Sonal (12:55):
Yeah, I learned from her literally something every day,
every single day, every singleday.
I love that.
So everything was going reallywell.
Mona, talk to us about, likesome might say, you left that.
You know, speaking of comfortis the enemy of growth.
Maybe that's where we're goingright now.
You left that comfort of and Iput comfort in air quotes,
(13:17):
employment, employed life atMcKinsey.
So you, 10 years ago, and yougo ahead and you start
generationorg.
Tell us about what were youthinking and also what followed
next.
What were those early months,early years, what were they like
?
And we also want to learn fromyou the mission like how do you
(13:37):
get people placed into rolesthat are considered beyond their
reach?
We want to know lots of stuff,absolutely.
Mona (13:45):
So I had mentioned earlier that around 2011 was the time
of the Arab Spring, and on theheels of the Arab Spring was the
global Occupy movement.
So, if you will remember,occupy Wall Street and then it
became Occupy Men's AcrossCities in the world, and that
(14:07):
was when I began realizing thisbridge from education to
employment.
So what happens?
Post-secondary school educationwas an area where I wanted to
spend time, and so that's, thatwas the spark, that was the
trigger for my shift, at leastfrom K-12 to looking at
(14:31):
post-secondary, and that thenled to an exploration around
what does it take to be able totrain and place tens of
thousands of people into newcareers?
And, as I was looking acrossthe world, you know so, there
(14:55):
are lots of programs that trainyou, and they can be very large
programs, but they can have avery low job placement rate.
You know so, like 15, 20%.
And then there are programsthat train and place you in a
job, but they tend to be muchlower volume, so it tends to be,
you know, in the hundreds, low,thousands on an annual basis,
(15:17):
but they have a job placementrate of 70% or above.
And so for me, the question wasokay, well, could there be
something in the middle, youknow, can something train and
place.
You have tens of thousands ofpeople who go through it every
year and have an 80 percent plusjob placement rate and be cost
effective and be global, and sothat's really what led to the
(15:39):
thinking behind Generation.
So we are a global nonprofitand we started life in 2015.
And what we do is train andplace adults into careers that
would otherwise be inaccessible,and so we began initially with
(16:00):
a focus on youth, then weexpanded to adults of all ages,
because mid-careers and thoseseeking to transition to new
careers it comes across theentire age spectrum and we now
have 100,000 graduates, half ofthem have been in the last two
years.
So we're now growing quitequickly.
(16:21):
We measure our impact in termsof what we call breadth, depth
and durability, and for us, Iwant to really emphasize scale
equals breadth plus depth plusdurability.
The scale, I think, is oftenconfused as being breadth alone.
That is not good enough.
So breadth is the volume of ouremployers and our graduates on
(16:46):
an annual basis.
Depth is our employment andincome outcomes at three to six
months, which you know.
So now we have about an 80% jobplacement rate at three months.
It becomes about 90% at sixmonths post-program and then the
durability is the employment,income and well-being outcomes
(17:07):
up to five years post-program.
So we continue tracking to seehas this actually resulted in a
shift in the lives of our alumni.
So our graduates have nowearned over a billion dollars in
wages and we know that within ayear, in about 11 of our
(17:29):
countries, over 70% of ourgraduates achieve living wage,
and that continues two to fiveyears out for our employed
graduates.
We know what happens in termsof savings.
We know what happens in termsof well-being.
We have now about 40 milliondata points across the spectrum
and we work across now about 35professions, and they span tech,
(17:52):
healthcare, customer service,skilled trades and green jobs,
and so we are still on thelearning journey, but we feel
like there is a code that we arebeginning to crack about not
just how you get someone in ajob, but you get them to life
transforming outcomes over thefive years post that initial job
(18:17):
placement.
Sonal (18:18):
Wow, I'm blown away.
100,000 graduates and I've seenthe website as well so many
countries and and even thoughevery you know country has a
different language, the look andfeel is is very similar and I
like um it's, it's repeatable.
You know, you don't waste time.
(18:38):
The very first page you talkabout you know the mission and I
love this definition of scaleand I'm going to use this, with
your permission, again and againyeah, thank you.
Scale is seen in such a myopicway as breadth, and if you don't
have breadth, you don't havescale, breadth, depth and
durability.
Durability is obviously the onethat is most overlooked,
(19:01):
because we are almost alwaysshort-term driven, short-term
focus.
But looking at the quality oflife, looking at everything that
you said life transformationand I love that you said living
wage and not minimum wage,because minimum has never been
good enough, not for a halfdecent life, right?
So, wow, to think, mona, thiscame from an idea, right?
(19:27):
And look at how I I know you're, you know you're so humble and
you're like we're still learning.
We've kind of we're figuring afew things out.
We're learning, but we have alittle formula in place.
We are still early in thejourney.
There's what does it take.
I wasn't planning to ask youthis, but you know, people start
companies every day.
People start things with anidea and there's so much data
(19:49):
out there it doesn't survive.
Two years, three years.
They shut shop wasn't scalable,whatever definition of scale
they were using.
And here you are on the heelsof your you know celebrating the
10th anniversary.
What does it take to last?
Mona (20:05):
So many things.
So I think, first of all, we'vebeen blessed to have tremendous
supporters in our journey, andyou know so, from funders to
governments, to our learners.
We learn from them every day.
Teams right, I saw a verydiverse team across the world,
right, you know so.
(20:26):
We are blessed with our teamand team involving, you know,
also, our, like our broaderecosystem.
If you will, I think the secondthing I'd say is and this is
another saying fall in love withthe problem, not with your
solution, right, Because lifechanges.
(20:47):
You know, COVID happened.
That changed the way of work inmany ways.
And then the last thing I'd sayis the more we have grown, the
more we realize we have yet todo, right, you know, I think,
that the aspirations we startedwith in 2015,.
(21:08):
If you were to ask me now well,how have my, our aspirations
have grown as we have matured,and so that means that we're
actually much more distant fromwhere, from, from from where we
want to ultimately be, fromwhere we want to ultimately be.
So there was, when I was in theMiddle East.
(21:31):
There was once an interviewwith a journalist and one of the
leaders in the region, and theyasked him again how much of
your aspirations for the countryhave you achieved?
And this was in the early 2000s.
And he said you know, likewhatever, 20%.
And then that same journalistcame back several years later
(21:52):
and asked that same question andhe said it's 5%, Because the
dreams had become so much bigger.
And I feel that that is thesame for us now that we've seen
where the needs are.
So, for example, we wereinitially, and continue to, be
very focused on in-countrydelivery to train and place
(22:15):
people in their country.
But now we're thinking aboutwell, what about job deserts
across the world?
How could we supportindividuals who live in job
deserts anywhere in the world?
Sonal (22:26):
What's a job desert Mona?
Mona (22:28):
It's a place where you live, where there is very
minimal job availability.
Is it because of?
Sonal (22:34):
low population pockets.
Mona (22:37):
Just low business presence right To be able to create.
Also, think of refugeepopulations.
Sonal (22:46):
And there's just not enough jobs right even though
they're so, even though they'revery skilled um oftentimes, so
oftentimes, yes, yeah, yeah,yeah.
So you know so job.
Mona (22:58):
Deserts was not something that we were thinking about in
2015 and today we are right andso that's what, the more that
you do, the more you realize youcan and should do in order to
be in service of the missionlove that.
Sonal (23:12):
Uh, fall in love with the problem, not with the solution.
That's a great great point.
Um, particularly when someoneis listening and they're like
I'm preparing a presentation,I'm preparing a pitch, we do
want to fall in love with oursolution.
It feels so good.
But that detachment needs to bepracticed, that you're only
looking at it from the point ofview of the problem and I don't
know who sent this philosopher,I don't know, is it Aristotle?
(23:34):
The more I learn, the less Iknow.
Yes, that's pretty much it.
That's what you just said, and Ialso think you're probably
being very modest here, mona,when you say you're very blessed
.
You know you choose the teamaround you right and you've
(23:54):
chosen good players, top playersand someone who's listening
today, who would like to getinto the nonprofit world.
Maybe they're changing careersand they're like I'd love to be
a nonprofit.
I'm very mission driven and you, I guess, do so many interviews
, interviews, you do lots ofhiring, particularly at you know
the senior levels.
What are some traits you seeyourself looking for again and
again that you know that itwould be a good fit, it would be
(24:16):
a good ad fit, an ad to thegenerationorg culture.
Mona (24:23):
Yeah, so probably a couple of things.
I mean one, someone who has abuilder mindset, you know.
So if you think of builders andmanagers, so the world needs
both, and certainly within anorganization you need both, you
(24:43):
need both.
But when you are in the stageof going from zero to 10, or
even 10 to 100, you very muchneed a group of builders who can
take a concept or take a set oftools and turn it into
(25:04):
something real on the ground, inwhatever capacity that means.
So builder is one part of it.
Two is being very able andcomfortable to navigate
ambiguity.
You know the world is changingrapidly on so many different
fronts, whether it's the labormarkets or geopolitically or
(25:27):
whatever it is, and so you haveto be able to roll with the
punches, and so that is a reallyimportant attribute.
And then, obviously, we needpeople with deep expertise in a
particular area.
But much more importantly isthe ability to be
(25:48):
cross-functional.
You know, to understand, to notbe so deep in your area that
you can't build bridges with allof the other functions or with
other regions, becauseultimately, it's at that
intersectionality that you seethe most opportunity.
So those are just a couple ofthings.
Sonal (26:08):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's very useful Builder.
You do need builders andmanagers, but someone who's
comfortable building, you know,because, also a not-for-profit,
that entrepreneurial mindset.
You got to do more with less.
There's a word in.
There's a word in Hindi.
I love this word.
It was used by a very famouslady.
Her name is Laila.
She passed away at 37 years old.
(26:30):
She passed away from cancer inthe US and she did a lot of work
on poverty alleviation and shedefined jagar.
The Hindi word jagar literallymeans do more with less.
So my Hindi speaking listenersare going to be like, be, like,
oh, yeah, we know there's alwaysa solution, you know, and do it
in a way, obviously in a legalsort of way, um, but that
(26:51):
mindset of an ambiguity andbeing comfortable with ambiguity
and not, you know, havinganxiety about but I don't know
what this means for us like,yeah, we'll figure it out, you
know, step by step.
Um, love that.
And lastly, the wearing.
Sometimes we have to wear manyhats.
You know, doing one thing isn'tgood enough because we want to
do more.
(27:11):
We want to do more with lessresources, because resources are
not thrown around like they arein the private sector.
Understand, I understand that.
So that was very useful, thankyou.
I have a juicy, juicy questionfor you coming up, mona.
We talked about education andthe importance of it, and I love
that you took your own so veryseriously with studying.
(27:35):
You know studies at Stanfordand MIT, which are prestigious
institutions, not very easy toget in.
I'm guessing lots of hustle,burning midnight oil, and you
know taking yourself seriouslyand making the commitment to
make that happen.
And now here we are in the 2020s, where we see this sort of I
(27:58):
don't know if you see this, butI see this growing movement a
little bit like anti-education,especially amongst the youth on
social media and some of it Iunderstand.
You know about high expenses,educational debt, particularly
in countries like the US, wherehigher education is exorbitantly
priced and some even go so faras to say and LinkedIn has come
(28:22):
out and said this who's doingmore skill-based hiring versus,
you know, skill and talent-basedhiring versus education and
diploma and all of that stuff?
I want to know your thoughts onall this.
And in 2024 and beyond, mona,what do you see is?
You know, the changing role ofeducation?
Mona (28:46):
So there's so many thoughts sparked by those
questions.
Let me just start by sayingeducation has always been
important.
It will continue to beimportant, because learning is
how we grow.
Learning is how we get newskills, because learning is how
(29:09):
we grow.
Learning is how we get newskills.
This debate right now, in mymind, is about what kind of
education is worth it.
So it is not about educationyes or no.
It's about what is the kind ofeducation that will propel a
child, an adult, forwards, achild, an adult forwards, and
(29:30):
that's a very importantdistinction.
When you look at the research,what I will also say is that you
know there have been all typesof research that try to
understand.
Are there certain degrees, soacademic degrees or academic
majors, that have a greater ROIin terms of income relative to
(29:51):
others?
And those you know historicallyhave said, well, if you go into
STEM disciplines, you will do,you have a higher ROI than if
you do a liberal arts degree.
But I'll tell you, you know, Isaw research just the other day
about cognitive flexibility, youknow.
So those who have a doublemajor, who go into, you know,
(30:11):
let's say, chemistry andliterature, right, you know
where you have a double major indifferent disciplines.
They actually have the highestROI of all Because they're
because of the nature of thatwork, they are very deliberately
in interdisciplinary types ofroles, which is much harder to
(30:33):
automate or digitize, as youthink, moving forwards.
So this is just a long way ofsaying there is an important
reckoning about what is the typeof education that is most
useful and which mostaccelerates learning.
(30:56):
There are movements now aroundhow do we do more bite-sized
learning?
So, instead of you doing likeyou know a, you know doing a,
let's say, a master's for a yearor an undergraduate degree for
this period of time, is it moreuseful to sort of have like
learning on demand, if you willright, you know.
So this is a specific skill,here's a, here's a learning for
(31:19):
it, et cetera.
There is that.
There is the skills-basedhiring movement that you just
mentioned, but I will also andthat's learning that employers
need to do.
But I will also say there thereis both from our own research
and recent research put out byothers there is a lot more talk
(31:41):
about skills-based hiring andnot as many companies actually
hiring in that way.
Actually, there are manycompanies that one don't believe
that a shift to skills-basedhiring is the best path for them
, and second companies that saythat they are doing it, but they
(32:01):
are hiring the way theytraditionally hired, and it is
those who have college degrees.
So there's still a lot to beworked out on how do you get
employers to shift.
But what I would lastly say isyou know, with everything that
has been happening post-COVIDwith AI, there has never been a
higher premium on how do youlearn quickly than there is
(32:25):
today, Because job tasks keepchanging, because new
professions are emerging, and sofiguring out and proactively
investing in yourself so thatyou learn how to use whichever
AI tool is the one that youprefer.
(32:47):
I mean, it's just you've got toinvest proactively in yourself,
learning that, Even if you areteaching yourself through
available online material orcontent, don't just wait for an
employer to train you.
That will come, but employersare still also figuring that out
themselves and in the meantime,you can materially make
(33:09):
yourself more valuable in yourrole by owning these things
yourself.
So those are a lot of differentthoughts, Sonal, not the most
organized way, but that's whatyour question sparked for me.
Sonal (33:22):
No, that's very useful.
My question wasn't the mostorganized to begin with, so your
answer was very useful.
And I love the last part ofyour answer because learning has
never been more accessible,more affordable and more
portable literally in a coupleof inches in our pocket than it
is today.
So there's no excuse and noneed to wait for and not you
(33:46):
know, we have to be proactiveand not wait for someone to do
this for us, and I'm so glad youmade that distinction between
formal learning, formaleducation, versus informally
doing it, with or without.
You know the cape and the sashand that tassels.
You know that graduation cap,which, I guess if we Google
(34:08):
education, if you Google that asan image, that is what comes up
.
You know formal degree andsomebody a dean is speaking, but
there's so many different waysof learning.
The other thing that you saidwas the say-do gap what they say
versus what they do.
that's important to highlightbecause a lot of companies
private, public, not profit,whatever they are.
(34:29):
A lot of them are giantbehemoths and things can move at
a glacial pace.
So in spite of I'm now, I'mgone, you know, negating myself
but in spite of all the trendswe see, it is still still like
you know at the surface.
But deeper, people take a whileto change habits.
Our old habits die hard, right.
(34:50):
So people say they're doingskills based hiring, but when
you interview people in yourresearch, oh yeah, you have a
four year degree, we want tohire you.
A lot of hiring came from thatsource.
So I'm so glad you talked aboutthat.
All right, fantastic.
So, mona, go ahead.
Mona (35:17):
I'll just add one piece of research which we did.
So we were looking at how tosupport underrepresented
communities to enter tech rolesacross the world, and so we
surveyed thousands of employersand job seekers in tech roles
existing employees across eightcountries.
What we found is that, eventhough employers something like
(35:39):
60% plus of them said thathiring for entry-level roles
needs to be completelyoverhauled and that they
struggle to find the talent theyneed, over the last three years
, the vast majority of employersactually raised education
requirements and work experiencerequirements, and so this is
(36:19):
why why enough managers to beable to sufficiently train and
support entry-level hires whodon't have those degrees or
don't have the two years of workexperience?
Right, and so we want soactually, like for 94 percent of
companies, the entry-level roleas we understand it has gone.
(36:41):
You know so the entry-levelrole being like this is your
first experience in the room.
Know so the entry-level rolebeing like this is your first
experience.
So the entry-level job is justgone, right, and that's a really
important realization.
So I just share that to saythat it's very entrenched and
requires a lot of deepexploration of why are employers
(37:03):
making these choices?
Because they make choices for areason and we need to
understand them deeply in orderto figure out is there a
different path here?
Sonal (37:13):
Yeah, and they make choices for a reason, they make
decisions for a reason and wehave to follow the money.
That reason comes from a lot oftimes because time is limited,
resources are limited andultimately it's about the bottom
line.
I love that, but I don't lovethat.
I like that.
You gave this nuanced approach.
But the entry-level role hey,my first job in my life, hey,
(37:37):
welcome, if that had gone right.
And they keep saying two tofive years, two to five years.
That's not fair.
And they keep saying two tofive years, two to five years.
That's not fair because that'ssetting that 21, 22 year old up
for failure, because they'relike it also means it's really
important to do the internshipsand the apprenticeship, you know
.
Mona (37:56):
So, all of these things that give you exposure while you
are still a student, yes,become all the more important.
Sonal (38:03):
Yes, exactly, exactly, totally understand.
All right, mona.
So we've come close to the endand I want to ask you when you
look back on your career these25 years or so, is there one
standout, defining moment thatsupercharged your career and
helped you to move closer toyour current success?
Mona (38:23):
Really hitting me with the big questions.
Sonal (38:24):
here it's kind of my.
Thing.
Mona (38:34):
I think the Arab Spring Occupy Movement period was just
really formative in where shouldI spend the next part of, or
the next chapter of, my career.
I will put it that way.
You know, sometimes there aredefining moments in time because
(38:55):
of where you are, because ofwho you are, that really brings
clarity as to where is the mostvalue-adding place you can be,
and so that very much set me onthe generation path.
So I will pick that one as mymost defining moment.
Sonal (39:20):
Profound.
Yeah, absolutely Totallyunderstand that.
All right, fantastic.
Dr Mona Murshed, how can peoplelearn more about you and follow
your work?
Mona (39:31):
So our website is generationorg, so please do
visit and, for anyone who wouldlike to get in touch, we also on
the website.
There are many ways, justthrough the contact us, to be in
(39:51):
touch if you either want toexplore our programming or want
to continue this dialogue.
And, sonal, thank you so muchfor hosting me today.
Sonal (39:56):
No, my pleasure.
Thank you so much for your timetoday and we wish you the best
with generationorg and beyond.
Hey there, thank you for takingthe time to listen to today's
show.
If you loved it, please doleave me a review on Apple
Podcasts.
I search high and low to bringyou the very best guests, and
(40:18):
I'm so proud to bring you theirstories and game-changing career
lessons.
The best compliment that youcould ever give me is taking a
screenshot of today's episodeand sharing it with your
LinkedIn network and tagging meat Sonal Behl S-O-N-A-L-B-A-H-L.
All right, I look forward tospending time together on the
(40:40):
next episode of the how I GotHired podcast.
Take care of yourself and byefor now.
Hey there, welcome to the how I Got Hired podcast.
I'm your host, sonal Behal,former HR director and founder
of Supercharge, and I have hadan insane corporate career that
started out in India, then movedto South America and then to
Europe, often working only inSpanish or French, which I had
to learn there from scratch.
(00:28):
Now, why do I call my careerinsane?
Because while I've experiencedcomplete highs, like working
across geographies andindustries, while navigating
challenges like needing visasponsorships, zero network
locally during recessions, andoften while being a new mom to
(00:48):
one of my two kids, I have seencareer heartbreak and multiple
layoffs, as well.
As a career strategist, Istrongly believe that a
fulfilling career is abirthright and not a privilege
for the lucky few who haveaccess to prestigious education,
capital and networks.
(01:08):
And now I am on a mission todemocratize access to high value
career advice by designingaffordable digital courses with
my YouTube channel and thispodcast right here, where we
learn together from ordinarypeople like you and me and how
they created extraordinarycareer success.
(01:29):
I hope this episode reminds youthat if they could do it, you
can do it too.
Now get ready to getsupercharged, let's go.
Hey there, welcome back,welcome back.
My guest today began her career25 years ago in the Middle East,
where she was one of thefounding members of McKinsey's
(01:52):
offices in the region.
And while over there, dr MonaMurshid founded and led
McKinsey's global educationservice line, leading research
on high performing and fastimproving, fast-improving school
systems, as well as on thechallenges of that education to
the employment journey,something she was deeply
(02:12):
involved with for over 10 years.
So in 2014, which is at thetime of this recording pretty
much 10 years ago Mona becamefounder and CEO of Generationorg
.
What is that?
This is a global nonprofit witha mission to support learners
of all ages to be trained andplaced in careers that were
(02:34):
previously beyond their reach.
How does she do that?
We're going to talk about that.
Mona has a BA from Stanford andPhD from MIT.
She holds dual Egyptian and UScitizenship.
We are going to talk about thiscareer switch and so much more.
Mona, such a pleasure.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
Pleasure to be here.
Fantastic Mona, let's getcracking right away.
(02:57):
I want to talk about the startof your career journey, like I
mentioned in the intro, atMcKinsey, and you spent the
better part of your adult lifethere.
So talk to us about.
How did this move happen?
How did you get hired there?
Mona (03:12):
So I was very keen to be able to return to the region,
the region being the Middle East, and so that was the
opportunity which I had, as bybeing part of McKinsey's Middle
East office.
And then, once I got there, thatwas a moment in time when many
(03:36):
countries in the region werereally spending efforts to
improve the literacy andnumeracy rates within the school
systems, and so I very quicklythen became very engaged in how
can you actually move schoolsystem outcomes, and you know,
(03:58):
it's very much like finding yourplace in the world.
As soon as I began working inthe education space, it just
felt like this is where I shouldbe, this is what was meant to
be, and that began my journey ineducation, and so, initially,
with a focus on K-12, so schools, you know.
And then, at the time, you willrecall that it was the moment
(04:22):
of the Arab Spring and around2010, 2011.
And that's when my attentionbegan focusing on youth
unemployment, because up untilthen, I've been very focused on
okay, if we just improveliteracy, numeracy levels, we
get students graduated,everything will be fine.
(04:44):
Numeracy level as we getstudents graduated, everything
will be fine.
But when you have 40% youthunemployment rates, things are
not fine, and so that's when Ibegan to focus more upstream, if
you will, on what do you do tobridge the education to
employment gap?
Sonal (04:58):
Perfect, perfect.
So I'm just going to pause youhere because I want to get more
detailed here.
But when you say, I want torewind, just detailed here.
But when you say, um, I want torewind just a second.
When you said education, um,and you know, you did your BA
and you did your PhD, tell mewhy the education sector, like
what about it, appealed to youbecause you probably had so many
choices in front of you I'mtalking, you know, 25, 20 years
(05:19):
ago and why this education.
Mona (05:23):
Education makes lives right.
Education is what propels youthrough social adversity.
It propels you onto a neweconomic mobility path.
I've seen that happen with myown family, and this is the path
that I would love to be a partof enabling for others.
(05:47):
You know, my father grew upwith very little in Cairo and
education was what enabled himto create a life for himself,
for my family, and there is, inmy mind, nothing more powerful.
You know so I'm very much abeliever.
(06:09):
You know, healthcare saveslives, education makes lives.
Sonal (06:13):
Oh, that is such a treatable.
Healthcare saves lives,education makes lives.
I couldn't agree more and yourdad must be so proud of you.
You know, because it's veryrelatable, what you're saying
People from our parents'generation, grandparents'
generation.
Education was such a privilege.
You know to talk about, notsomething you take for granted,
and you know when you said, youknow wanted to get back into
(06:35):
this region, it's still right,it wasn't a given Like, how did
like Mackenzie?
Like, how did you guys findeach other?
And do you remember somethingabout the interview process?
Um, and being given thisresponsibility?
It's not a, it's not a smallthing.
Like, is there something thatyou felt helped you to stand out
?
Mona (06:53):
oh, that's taking me back now many years that's the whole
idea I mean I think, um look,whenever you are engaged in
starting up any new activity,there has to be a certain amount
of passion and hustle and justjudgment and problem solving
(07:15):
that you bring to it.
And that was true in my earlydays at McKinsey.
It's true in buildinggeneration days at McKinsey.
It's true in buildinggeneration.
You have to want it very deeplyto be able to make something
happen and to bring somethinginto being that isn't today
existing.
And then you have to have agreat team of people around you
(07:37):
who are similarly minded.
So those are the things thatstand out for me.
Sonal (07:41):
Yeah, yeah, I'm so glad you talked about that because I
talked about this five years agoon a, six years ago on a
YouTube video hunger.
You either want it like reallybadly or you don't.
And and recruiters can smellthat from a mile away who's
actually window shopping and whoreally, you know, actually
(08:02):
wants this, and it shows in yourbody language, it shows in
everything that you talk about.
And do you remember in theseyears right, better part of two
decades that you were here?
What are some career highlights, some lessons that have helped
shape who you are as a leadertoday?
Mona (08:24):
Another big question.
So I would say there have beena couple of things important in
my journey to date.
One is to always have a globalperspective and not only get
stuck in your own myopic view ofwhatever it is you know.
(08:44):
So I think quite early in mycareer I was lucky to be able to
, for example, with educationsystems, to go visit education
systems across the world and tounderstand what is it like to be
in a classroom in Singapore orin Finland or in Lithuania or in
(09:04):
Brazil, whatever it may be, andso that that has always stuck
with me.
You know, just alwaysunderstand what it is like to
sit in someone else's shoes anddo not put your own pattern
recognition onto it.
See, the new pattern thatexists.
Yes, so that's one thing that'sbeen quite formative too is just
(09:27):
the importance of team.
You know there's that oldsaying that you know if you want
to go fast, go alone, but ifyou want to go far, go together,
and that's very true.
And then you have to find whois your team and who is that,
and the importance, as you thinkabout the team, of people who
(09:48):
think differently than you,because it is that point of
friction that is where greatnesshappens in terms of taking
leaps and bounds, you know.
So.
Never surround yourself withpeople who only think like you.
Deliberately surround yourselfwith people who only think like
you.
Deliberately surround yourselfwith people who think
differently than you, so thatyou are a complementary whole
(10:10):
that can go much furthertogether.
Exactly, and I think the lastthing you know, you always need
new challenge, like, never getcomfortable.
As soon as you get comfortable,you get timid, right.
So always push to what is thenext thing?
What is the next thing in orderto grow right?
(10:34):
And that you know.
I've been very blessed that youknow.
Every year there's somethingdifferent in my world that
enables me to take the skillsthat I've gained and to apply
them in a really different wayand to learn new things.
And then the final, final thingthat I'll say is you know,
learning comes from everywhere,right?
(10:55):
So I learn as much from thosewho are early in their career as
those who are more senior intheir career.
So just always be open tolearning from everyone in your
orbit.
Do not only think that learninghappens from those who are more
senior to you.
Sonal (11:16):
Yes, exactly, I think each of these are.
You know, they're so rich theydeserve.
Honestly, I think I need todouble click the.
The echo chamber effect is veryreal.
We see this in today's world.
It's a massive problem withsenior leaders, because they
surround themselves with, yes,men and and people who agree, um
, and they don't see obstaclesbecause nobody talks about them,
(11:40):
right, and and uh, patternrecognition, what is normal?
Right, and I think what you'resaying goes deeper, like the
day-to-day.
She has an accent.
She has.
She has an accent compared towhat?
Because pattern recognition.
What you're saying is we centerourselves as the norm and then
everything else.
Then look at it from acompletely different angle and I
(12:00):
think what you said is really,really important.
So, if I'm talking to thelistener right now, you were
like, oh, this is cool.
No, no, hold on rewind 120seconds and listen to that part
again, because it was reallyrelevant.
Um, comfort is the enemy ofgrowth.
When you get comfortable, youget timid.
You're right.
We have lots of fear when andwe come from uncomfortable ego
(12:22):
loves that.
Don't get me out there.
It's, it's too scary.
Uh, I'm so warm and cozy in myblanket right now.
I don't want to go out there inthe cold or you know, in
unknown circumstances.
And, lastly, learning.
If you have, you know, less orno ego.
You can learn from your mentees, you learn from students, you
(12:43):
learn from children, you learnfrom sources that you don't
think are traditional sources ofwisdom, um so that's beautiful,
beautiful.
Mona (12:52):
I also learn from my daughter every day.
Sonal (12:55):
Yeah, I learned from her literally something every day,
every single day, every singleday.
I love that.
So everything was going reallywell.
Mona, talk to us about, likesome might say, you left that.
You know, speaking of comfortis the enemy of growth.
Maybe that's where we're goingright now.
You left that comfort of and Iput comfort in air quotes,
(13:17):
employment, employed life atMcKinsey.
So you, 10 years ago, and yougo ahead and you start
generationorg.
Tell us about what were youthinking and also what followed
next.
What were those early months,early years, what were they like
?
And we also want to learn fromyou the mission like how do you
(13:37):
get people placed into rolesthat are considered beyond their
reach?
We want to know lots of stuff,absolutely.
Mona (13:45):
So I had mentioned earlier that around 2011 was the time
of the Arab Spring, and on theheels of the Arab Spring was the
global Occupy movement.
So, if you will remember,occupy Wall Street and then it
became Occupy Men's AcrossCities in the world, and that
(14:07):
was when I began realizing thisbridge from education to
employment.
So what happens?
Post-secondary school educationwas an area where I wanted to
spend time, and so that's, thatwas the spark, that was the
trigger for my shift, at leastfrom K-12 to looking at
(14:31):
post-secondary, and that thenled to an exploration around
what does it take to be able totrain and place tens of
thousands of people into newcareers?
And, as I was looking acrossthe world, you know so, there
(14:55):
are lots of programs that trainyou, and they can be very large
programs, but they can have avery low job placement rate.
You know so, like 15, 20%.
And then there are programsthat train and place you in a
job, but they tend to be muchlower volume, so it tends to be,
you know, in the hundreds, low,thousands on an annual basis,
(15:17):
but they have a job placementrate of 70% or above.
And so for me, the question wasokay, well, could there be
something in the middle, youknow, can something train and
place.
You have tens of thousands ofpeople who go through it every
year and have an 80 percent plusjob placement rate and be cost
effective and be global, and sothat's really what led to the
(15:39):
thinking behind Generation.
So we are a global nonprofitand we started life in 2015.
And what we do is train andplace adults into careers that
would otherwise be inaccessible,and so we began initially with
(16:00):
a focus on youth, then weexpanded to adults of all ages,
because mid-careers and thoseseeking to transition to new
careers it comes across theentire age spectrum and we now
have 100,000 graduates, half ofthem have been in the last two
years.
So we're now growing quitequickly.
(16:21):
We measure our impact in termsof what we call breadth, depth
and durability, and for us, Iwant to really emphasize scale
equals breadth plus depth plusdurability.
The scale, I think, is oftenconfused as being breadth alone.
That is not good enough.
So breadth is the volume of ouremployers and our graduates on
(16:46):
an annual basis.
Depth is our employment andincome outcomes at three to six
months, which you know.
So now we have about an 80% jobplacement rate at three months.
It becomes about 90% at sixmonths post-program and then the
durability is the employment,income and well-being outcomes
(17:07):
up to five years post-program.
So we continue tracking to seehas this actually resulted in a
shift in the lives of our alumni.
So our graduates have nowearned over a billion dollars in
wages and we know that within ayear, in about 11 of our
(17:29):
countries, over 70% of ourgraduates achieve living wage,
and that continues two to fiveyears out for our employed
graduates.
We know what happens in termsof savings.
We know what happens in termsof well-being.
We have now about 40 milliondata points across the spectrum
and we work across now about 35professions, and they span tech,
(17:52):
healthcare, customer service,skilled trades and green jobs,
and so we are still on thelearning journey, but we feel
like there is a code that we arebeginning to crack about not
just how you get someone in ajob, but you get them to life
transforming outcomes over thefive years post that initial job
(18:17):
placement.
Sonal (18:18):
Wow, I'm blown away.
100,000 graduates and I've seenthe website as well so many
countries and and even thoughevery you know country has a
different language, the look andfeel is is very similar and I
like um it's, it's repeatable.
You know, you don't waste time.
(18:38):
The very first page you talkabout you know the mission and I
love this definition of scaleand I'm going to use this, with
your permission, again and againyeah, thank you.
Scale is seen in such a myopicway as breadth, and if you don't
have breadth, you don't havescale, breadth, depth and
durability.
Durability is obviously the onethat is most overlooked,
(19:01):
because we are almost alwaysshort-term driven, short-term
focus.
But looking at the quality oflife, looking at everything that
you said life transformationand I love that you said living
wage and not minimum wage,because minimum has never been
good enough, not for a halfdecent life, right?
So, wow, to think, mona, thiscame from an idea, right?
(19:27):
And look at how I I know you're, you know you're so humble and
you're like we're still learning.
We've kind of we're figuring afew things out.
We're learning, but we have alittle formula in place.
We are still early in thejourney.
There's what does it take.
I wasn't planning to ask youthis, but you know, people start
companies every day.
People start things with anidea and there's so much data
(19:49):
out there it doesn't survive.
Two years, three years.
They shut shop wasn't scalable,whatever definition of scale
they were using.
And here you are on the heelsof your you know celebrating the
10th anniversary.
What does it take to last?
Mona (20:05):
So many things.
So I think, first of all, we'vebeen blessed to have tremendous
supporters in our journey, andyou know so, from funders to
governments, to our learners.
We learn from them every day.
Teams right, I saw a verydiverse team across the world,
right, you know so.
(20:26):
We are blessed with our teamand team involving, you know,
also, our, like our broaderecosystem.
If you will, I think the secondthing I'd say is and this is
another saying fall in love withthe problem, not with your
solution, right, Because lifechanges.
(20:47):
You know, COVID happened.
That changed the way of work inmany ways.
And then the last thing I'd sayis the more we have grown, the
more we realize we have yet todo, right, you know, I think,
that the aspirations we startedwith in 2015,.
(21:08):
If you were to ask me now well,how have my, our aspirations
have grown as we have matured,and so that means that we're
actually much more distant fromwhere, from, from from where we
want to ultimately be, fromwhere we want to ultimately be.
So there was, when I was in theMiddle East.
(21:31):
There was once an interviewwith a journalist and one of the
leaders in the region, and theyasked him again how much of
your aspirations for the countryhave you achieved?
And this was in the early 2000s.
And he said you know, likewhatever, 20%.
And then that same journalistcame back several years later
(21:52):
and asked that same question andhe said it's 5%, Because the
dreams had become so much bigger.
And I feel that that is thesame for us now that we've seen
where the needs are.
So, for example, we wereinitially, and continue to, be
very focused on in-countrydelivery to train and place
(22:15):
people in their country.
But now we're thinking aboutwell, what about job deserts
across the world?
How could we supportindividuals who live in job
deserts anywhere in the world?
Sonal (22:26):
What's a job desert Mona?
Mona (22:28):
It's a place where you live, where there is very
minimal job availability.
Is it because of?
Sonal (22:34):
low population pockets.
Mona (22:37):
Just low business presence right To be able to create.
Also, think of refugeepopulations.
Sonal (22:46):
And there's just not enough jobs right even though
they're so, even though they'revery skilled um oftentimes, so
oftentimes, yes, yeah, yeah,yeah.
So you know so job.
Mona (22:58):
Deserts was not something that we were thinking about in
2015 and today we are right andso that's what, the more that
you do, the more you realize youcan and should do in order to
be in service of the missionlove that.
Sonal (23:12):
Uh, fall in love with the problem, not with the solution.
That's a great great point.
Um, particularly when someoneis listening and they're like
I'm preparing a presentation,I'm preparing a pitch, we do
want to fall in love with oursolution.
It feels so good.
But that detachment needs to bepracticed, that you're only
looking at it from the point ofview of the problem and I don't
know who sent this philosopher,I don't know, is it Aristotle?
(23:34):
The more I learn, the less Iknow.
Yes, that's pretty much it.
That's what you just said, and Ialso think you're probably
being very modest here, mona,when you say you're very blessed
.
You know you choose the teamaround you right and you've
(23:54):
chosen good players, top playersand someone who's listening
today, who would like to getinto the nonprofit world.
Maybe they're changing careersand they're like I'd love to be
a nonprofit.
I'm very mission driven and you, I guess, do so many interviews
, interviews, you do lots ofhiring, particularly at you know
the senior levels.
What are some traits you seeyourself looking for again and
again that you know that itwould be a good fit, it would be
(24:16):
a good ad fit, an ad to thegenerationorg culture.
Mona (24:23):
Yeah, so probably a couple of things.
I mean one, someone who has abuilder mindset, you know.
So if you think of builders andmanagers, so the world needs
both, and certainly within anorganization you need both, you
(24:43):
need both.
But when you are in the stageof going from zero to 10, or
even 10 to 100, you very muchneed a group of builders who can
take a concept or take a set oftools and turn it into
(25:04):
something real on the ground, inwhatever capacity that means.
So builder is one part of it.
Two is being very able andcomfortable to navigate
ambiguity.
You know the world is changingrapidly on so many different
fronts, whether it's the labormarkets or geopolitically or
(25:27):
whatever it is, and so you haveto be able to roll with the
punches, and so that is a reallyimportant attribute.
And then, obviously, we needpeople with deep expertise in a
particular area.
But much more importantly isthe ability to be
(25:48):
cross-functional.
You know, to understand, to notbe so deep in your area that
you can't build bridges with allof the other functions or with
other regions, becauseultimately, it's at that
intersectionality that you seethe most opportunity.
So those are just a couple ofthings.
Sonal (26:08):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's very useful Builder.
You do need builders andmanagers, but someone who's
comfortable building, you know,because, also a not-for-profit,
that entrepreneurial mindset.
You got to do more with less.
There's a word in.
There's a word in Hindi.
I love this word.
It was used by a very famouslady.
Her name is Laila.
She passed away at 37 years old.
(26:30):
She passed away from cancer inthe US and she did a lot of work
on poverty alleviation and shedefined jagar.
The Hindi word jagar literallymeans do more with less.
So my Hindi speaking listenersare going to be like, be, like,
oh, yeah, we know there's alwaysa solution, you know, and do it
in a way, obviously in a legalsort of way, um, but that
(26:51):
mindset of an ambiguity andbeing comfortable with ambiguity
and not, you know, havinganxiety about but I don't know
what this means for us like,yeah, we'll figure it out, you
know, step by step.
Um, love that.
And lastly, the wearing.
Sometimes we have to wear manyhats.
You know, doing one thing isn'tgood enough because we want to
do more.
(27:11):
We want to do more with lessresources, because resources are
not thrown around like they arein the private sector.
Understand, I understand that.
So that was very useful, thankyou.
I have a juicy, juicy questionfor you coming up, mona.
We talked about education andthe importance of it, and I love
that you took your own so veryseriously with studying.
(27:35):
You know studies at Stanfordand MIT, which are prestigious
institutions, not very easy toget in.
I'm guessing lots of hustle,burning midnight oil, and you
know taking yourself seriouslyand making the commitment to
make that happen.
And now here we are in the 2020s, where we see this sort of I
(27:58):
don't know if you see this, butI see this growing movement a
little bit like anti-education,especially amongst the youth on
social media and some of it Iunderstand.
You know about high expenses,educational debt, particularly
in countries like the US, wherehigher education is exorbitantly
priced and some even go so faras to say and LinkedIn has come
(28:22):
out and said this who's doingmore skill-based hiring versus,
you know, skill and talent-basedhiring versus education and
diploma and all of that stuff?
I want to know your thoughts onall this.
And in 2024 and beyond, mona,what do you see is?
You know, the changing role ofeducation?
Mona (28:46):
So there's so many thoughts sparked by those
questions.
Let me just start by sayingeducation has always been
important.
It will continue to beimportant, because learning is
how we grow.
Learning is how we get newskills, because learning is how
(29:09):
we grow.
Learning is how we get newskills.
This debate right now, in mymind, is about what kind of
education is worth it.
So it is not about educationyes or no.
It's about what is the kind ofeducation that will propel a
child, an adult, forwards, achild, an adult forwards, and
(29:30):
that's a very importantdistinction.
When you look at the research,what I will also say is that you
know there have been all typesof research that try to
understand.
Are there certain degrees, soacademic degrees or academic
majors, that have a greater ROIin terms of income relative to
(29:51):
others?
And those you know historicallyhave said, well, if you go into
STEM disciplines, you will do,you have a higher ROI than if
you do a liberal arts degree.
But I'll tell you, you know, Isaw research just the other day
about cognitive flexibility, youknow.
So those who have a doublemajor, who go into, you know,
(30:11):
let's say, chemistry andliterature, right, you know
where you have a double major indifferent disciplines.
They actually have the highestROI of all Because they're
because of the nature of thatwork, they are very deliberately
in interdisciplinary types ofroles, which is much harder to
(30:33):
automate or digitize, as youthink, moving forwards.
So this is just a long way ofsaying there is an important
reckoning about what is the typeof education that is most
useful and which mostaccelerates learning.
(30:56):
There are movements now aroundhow do we do more bite-sized
learning?
So, instead of you doing likeyou know a, you know doing a,
let's say, a master's for a yearor an undergraduate degree for
this period of time, is it moreuseful to sort of have like
learning on demand, if you willright, you know.
So this is a specific skill,here's a, here's a learning for
(31:19):
it, et cetera.
There is that.
There is the skills-basedhiring movement that you just
mentioned, but I will also andthat's learning that employers
need to do.
But I will also say there thereis both from our own research
and recent research put out byothers there is a lot more talk
(31:41):
about skills-based hiring andnot as many companies actually
hiring in that way.
Actually, there are manycompanies that one don't believe
that a shift to skills-basedhiring is the best path for them
, and second companies that saythat they are doing it, but they
(32:01):
are hiring the way theytraditionally hired, and it is
those who have college degrees.
So there's still a lot to beworked out on how do you get
employers to shift.
But what I would lastly say isyou know, with everything that
has been happening post-COVIDwith AI, there has never been a
higher premium on how do youlearn quickly than there is
(32:25):
today, Because job tasks keepchanging, because new
professions are emerging, and sofiguring out and proactively
investing in yourself so thatyou learn how to use whichever
AI tool is the one that youprefer.
(32:47):
I mean, it's just you've got toinvest proactively in yourself,
learning that, Even if you areteaching yourself through
available online material orcontent, don't just wait for an
employer to train you.
That will come, but employersare still also figuring that out
themselves and in the meantime,you can materially make
(33:09):
yourself more valuable in yourrole by owning these things
yourself.
So those are a lot of differentthoughts, Sonal, not the most
organized way, but that's whatyour question sparked for me.
Sonal (33:22):
No, that's very useful.
My question wasn't the mostorganized to begin with, so your
answer was very useful.
And I love the last part ofyour answer because learning has
never been more accessible,more affordable and more
portable literally in a coupleof inches in our pocket than it
is today.
So there's no excuse and noneed to wait for and not you
(33:46):
know, we have to be proactiveand not wait for someone to do
this for us, and I'm so glad youmade that distinction between
formal learning, formaleducation, versus informally
doing it, with or without.
You know the cape and the sashand that tassels.
You know that graduation cap,which, I guess if we Google
(34:08):
education, if you Google that asan image, that is what comes up
.
You know formal degree andsomebody a dean is speaking, but
there's so many different waysof learning.
The other thing that you saidwas the say-do gap what they say
versus what they do.
that's important to highlightbecause a lot of companies
private, public, not profit,whatever they are.
(34:29):
A lot of them are giantbehemoths and things can move at
a glacial pace.
So in spite of I'm now, I'mgone, you know, negating myself
but in spite of all the trendswe see, it is still still like
you know at the surface.
But deeper, people take a whileto change habits.
Our old habits die hard, right.
(34:50):
So people say they're doingskills based hiring, but when
you interview people in yourresearch, oh yeah, you have a
four year degree, we want tohire you.
A lot of hiring came from thatsource.
So I'm so glad you talked aboutthat.
All right, fantastic.
So, mona, go ahead.
Mona (35:17):
I'll just add one piece of research which we did.
So we were looking at how tosupport underrepresented
communities to enter tech rolesacross the world, and so we
surveyed thousands of employersand job seekers in tech roles
existing employees across eightcountries.
What we found is that, eventhough employers something like
(35:39):
60% plus of them said thathiring for entry-level roles
needs to be completelyoverhauled and that they
struggle to find the talent theyneed, over the last three years
, the vast majority of employersactually raised education
requirements and work experiencerequirements, and so this is
(36:19):
why why enough managers to beable to sufficiently train and
support entry-level hires whodon't have those degrees or
don't have the two years of workexperience?
Right, and so we want soactually, like for 94 percent of
companies, the entry-level roleas we understand it has gone.
(36:41):
You know so the entry-levelrole being like this is your
first experience in the room.
Know so the entry-level rolebeing like this is your first
experience.
So the entry-level job is justgone, right, and that's a really
important realization.
So I just share that to saythat it's very entrenched and
requires a lot of deepexploration of why are employers
(37:03):
making these choices?
Because they make choices for areason and we need to
understand them deeply in orderto figure out is there a
different path here?
Sonal (37:13):
Yeah, and they make choices for a reason, they make
decisions for a reason and wehave to follow the money.
That reason comes from a lot oftimes because time is limited,
resources are limited andultimately it's about the bottom
line.
I love that, but I don't lovethat.
I like that.
You gave this nuanced approach.
But the entry-level role hey,my first job in my life, hey,
(37:37):
welcome, if that had gone right.
And they keep saying two tofive years, two to five years.
That's not fair.
And they keep saying two tofive years, two to five years.
That's not fair because that'ssetting that 21, 22 year old up
for failure, because they'relike it also means it's really
important to do the internshipsand the apprenticeship, you know
.
Mona (37:56):
So, all of these things that give you exposure while you
are still a student, yes,become all the more important.
Sonal (38:03):
Yes, exactly, exactly, totally understand.
All right, mona.
So we've come close to the endand I want to ask you when you
look back on your career these25 years or so, is there one
standout, defining moment thatsupercharged your career and
helped you to move closer toyour current success?
Mona (38:23):
Really hitting me with the big questions.
Sonal (38:24):
here it's kind of my.
Thing.
Mona (38:34):
I think the Arab Spring Occupy Movement period was just
really formative in where shouldI spend the next part of, or
the next chapter of, my career.
I will put it that way.
You know, sometimes there aredefining moments in time because
(38:55):
of where you are, because ofwho you are, that really brings
clarity as to where is the mostvalue-adding place you can be,
and so that very much set me onthe generation path.
So I will pick that one as mymost defining moment.
Sonal (39:20):
Profound.
Yeah, absolutely Totallyunderstand that.
All right, fantastic.
Dr Mona Murshed, how can peoplelearn more about you and follow
your work?
Mona (39:31):
So our website is generationorg, so please do
visit and, for anyone who wouldlike to get in touch, we also on
the website.
There are many ways, justthrough the contact us, to be in
(39:51):
touch if you either want toexplore our programming or want
to continue this dialogue.
And, sonal, thank you so muchfor hosting me today.
Sonal (39:56):
No, my pleasure.
Thank you so much for your timetoday and we wish you the best
with generationorg and beyond.
Hey there, thank you for takingthe time to listen to today's
show.
If you loved it, please doleave me a review on Apple
Podcasts.
I search high and low to bringyou the very best guests, and
(40:18):
I'm so proud to bring you theirstories and game-changing career
lessons.
The best compliment that youcould ever give me is taking a
screenshot of today's episodeand sharing it with your
LinkedIn network and tagging meat Sonal Behl S-O-N-A-L-B-A-H-L.
All right, I look forward tospending time together on the
(40:40):
next episode of the how I GotHired podcast.
Take care of yourself and byefor now.
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