What if the path you set out on isn't the one you end up taking? Our guest, Michael Smith, embodies the courage it takes to redefine success. After thriving in the oil and gas industry, Michael co-founded a recruitment tech company, challenging the typical narrative of career stability. Journey with us as Michael revisits his roots, trading childhood dreams of aeronautics for a global career in energy, and ultimately, daring to leap into an entirely new field. His story is a testament to the power of adaptability and the exciting potential that comes with exploring different avenues.
Michael shares invaluable insights on nurturing talent and the role of encouragement and mentorship in personal and professional growth. As he recounts his rise to a maintenance team leader at Shell, Michael highlights the importance of demonstrating skills and resilience. Breaking free from societal expectations and finding validation beyond job titles is no easy feat, yet Michael's narrative shows us the rewards of stepping outside comfort zones and embracing one's true motivations. We also reflect on the transformative impact of becoming a parent and how it can reshape one's priorities, emphasizing that true fulfillment lies beyond material achievements.
As the world faced the COVID-19 pandemic, Michael encountered a critical period of introspection—his own "great reset." This episode uncovers how meaningful connections became paramount in his life, influencing both personal growth and his innovative approach to recruitment. Through video cover letters, Michael and his co-founder Paul are revolutionizing the hiring process, creating a more inclusive, human-centric experience that benefits both introverts and extroverts. Their vision challenges traditional norms, aiming to rehumanize recruitment and build a global workforce platform that connects individuals to opportunities like never before. Join us for a conversation that promises to inspire and reframe how you view success and career fulfillment.
Follow Michael on Linkedin here.
Learn more about UseVerb here: https://useverb.com/
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sonal (00:04):
Hey, welcome back and thank you for tuning in to
today's episode.
My guest, michael Smith, isjoining us all the way from
Perth, australia.
Michael has had a prettysuccessful career in the energy
sector in Australia, thePhilippines and South Korea, and
at his latest corporate role,he was offshore maintenance team
(00:29):
lead at a teeny, tiny oil andgas company called Shell.
You may have heard of it I'mkidding.
It's one of the world's largestand he sounds like a very
important dude right In thatspace.
But hold on, there's a plottwist.
Two years ago, in 2022, mikedecides to leave Shell and his
(00:49):
corporate career far behind andstarts at a recruitment tech
company, something he had nodirect experience in, something
he's never had any background in.
Why did he do it and how has itbeen going in the last couple
of years?
And what on earth is thisrecruitment tech company?
(01:13):
That part is the one I'm mostinterested in To learn all about
this and much, much more.
Let's welcome Mike.
Hey, mike, welcome to the show.
Mike (01:24):
What an introduction, Sonal, Thank you so much for
having me.
I'm very excited to be here andtell you about my journey and a
bit of the pattern interrupt myMoses moment and where I was
and where I am and where we'regoing.
Sonal (01:37):
Mike, that sounds great, so I am super excited to talk
about, let's say, your lifere-venture.
How?
Mike (01:46):
far do you want to go back ?
Sonal (01:48):
The oil and gas world right.
So I want to go to these 20years because you know oil and
gas and you were pretty loyal inthat sector.
You didn't sort of go from oiland gas to retail, to pharma.
You pretty much, you know, sortof stayed in that space and I
know Australia has lots ofreserves.
Reserves it's got lots ofcopper um mining sort of you
(02:12):
know professions related to the.
The materials are quite umpopular, quite common in
australia.
But I want to know about thekid Mike Smith.
Mike (02:25):
The kid Mike Smith.
Sonal (02:26):
Yeah, so was this a dream to be in the oil and gas.
Like did you have, like I havea two-parter here Never.
Mike (02:34):
I think they're the titles we get and they're the jobs we
land in.
But there's always an appetitefor who we are as people and I
think that forms us into thepeople that we've become.
I think even at an age of fiveI used to put the old milk
carton box on my head and thinkI was an astronaut.
I had a fascination withaeronautics.
I love speed.
(02:56):
I'm built for efficiency, Ilike fast, I like muscle cars, I
like fast cars, I like jetplanes.
I actually wanted to be in theAir Force but with my asthma I
had a chronic condition as achild that sort of inhibited
that.
But I think with who I was atthe time as a child I had every
toy mom and dad used to give me.
(03:17):
I was always there with ascrewdriver, you know, pull it
apart.
I want to know how this goestogether.
So I had a fascination for howthings went together.
I had a drive to understand,like I needed to know how this
works, and I think that just ledme into that journey of picking
up tools as a kid, working oncars, working on engines, which
(03:38):
also moved into my precision ofthings.
I was very much a perfectionistat a young age and wanted to do
everything right, do everythingwith excellence.
I got into architecture drawing.
I did a bit of work experienceas an architect and I was like,
nah, that's not for me, I'm outof school.
I then got into civilengineering, which I went this
is boring, it's about roads,it's about static forces but
(04:00):
then realized, oh, I should justgo into mechanical, and the
mechanical really brought thescience and the dynamics of how
things go together, the movingparts of gears and bending
moments and forces and fluids,and it really helped me
understand not just on aphysical, on a property level,
how things behave and interact.
So that moved me into my careerwith oil and gas and at the same
(04:24):
time I was actually doing atrade in fitting and turning, so
being able to work with thetools, the machines, the
equipment on the practical sideand then apply that to the
theoretical side.
I was able to put two and twotogether and that really set me
up in a position where I couldmove forward in the companies
that I worked for and then, likeanything, as you work your way
(04:44):
up in any company, you start atthe bottom, you, you deliver,
and then you start to deliverthrough others, you deliver for
people, you deliver throughcommunities, you deliver through
teams.
And that really set me up intothose later years where you see
the acceleration into thewoodside, the Conoco and the
shell, but then moving intomanagement, which is another way
of understanding how things gotogether and how people go
(05:07):
together.
Sonal (05:07):
Exactly.
We'll get to that part in asecond, but thank you for
explaining that.
It sounds like third time's acharm, right?
You said you tried architecture, you tried civil engineering.
You're like it's not for me.
I love this because I'm so tired, I'm so over people saying to
kids what do you want to be whenyou grow up?
You can test things, because ifyou don't, how do you know it's
going to be right for you?
(05:28):
And guess what?
You're doing this again in your40s, when you completely
pivoted your career.
So there's a very importantlesson here Sort of try before
you buy no pressure and give ittime, so obviously not like in a
day.
Hey, civil engineering, soboring, it's not for me.
You gave it some time, youspoke with people, but you also
(05:48):
got your hands dirty.
You got into architecture, youmade a few drawings and you're
like you know what this isn'tlighting me up, perfectly fine.
So glad that you did that.
Very important lesson there,Not just for children but
grownups alike.
And then you know you talkedabout Shell.
So you know, if you had to sortof look back in this period of
(06:12):
time, I have a two-parter herebecause you got into Shell,
which is a much you know, sortof bigger I'm guessing, more
complex organization.
Talk to us about this move.
Was it easy, Was it complicated?
Getting hired, getting noticed,Was it comparative?
What helped you to stand out?
(06:32):
That's part one and part two.
You know you talked aboutrising up the ranks in
management.
Also, talk to us about whathelped you to stand out to be
visible to be memorable.
Mike (06:45):
Yeah, I just want to come back to your point about the
kids.
I think we say to children asparents like what do you want to
be when you grow up?
Kids don't have a clue.
Like we actually ask them tothink about titles and jobs and
like their world's about thisbig compared to our world, but
their world's about that bigcompared to them.
And I think we don't ask thosesort of questions where what do
you actually like to do?
And I think as parents, we needto train up a child on where
(07:09):
they should go.
And if they like drawing, youcan sort of talk to what they
actually like why do you likedrawing, why do you like this
and then help guide them.
But if you ask the child whatdo you want to do, they don't
have a clue and they try andrelate it to what mum and dad do
or experiences or people aroundthem.
And that's what really helps.
And my appetite for unpackinghow things work together was
even when my dad was verysuccessful.
(07:31):
My time with him was working oncars, pulling, grab a spanner,
pull things apart and I couldrealize if I put that in there
and undo that, that comes offLike, wow, I'm learning, I'm
understanding and I thinknaturally, even as parents, we
look at the toys children playwith.
Now.
They all mimic what we do withour parents, whether it's a tool
set with dad or a baby with mom, they're modeling something
(07:55):
that we see.
So the children are like I wantto do what mom and dad are
doing.
So, as parents, we have such agreat responsibility as mentors
to help guide and shape peopleinto understanding what they
like and then showing them whatthe options are, as opposed to
you need to be a doctor, youneed to be an accountant you got
me, you got me.
Sonal (08:11):
This is.
This is answers made me soemotional.
You're so right about that, andyou have probably some of your
best memories working on thosecars and tinkering with those
toys, with your dad and and alsoI don't like to generalize, but
that generation, this was theway they showed love.
Right like I spend time qualitytimeize, but that generation,
this was the way they showedlove.
Right like I spend time,quality time together, but I
love this.
What do you like to do?
I love this question and I usedto be, I used to light up, and
(08:35):
now I follow the same example.
When I was a kid, I used tolight up.
Once in a blue moon, somebodywould ask me so what's your
favorite subject at school?
Ah, the world is my oyster.
I could say art and craft, Icould say history, I could say
math, and they'll be like oh,tell me more.
This is so much better.
What do you like to do asopposed to what do you want to
be?
(08:55):
Because it's like garbage in,garbage out.
Mike (08:57):
They don't know anything, yet they'll just say what was
your favorite subject historyhistory.
Yeah, yeah, there's always awhy, I liked maths.
I, um, I just I.
My maths was absolute it, it,it it was rounded, it, it, it
solved um.
So there was an answer.
Sonal (09:16):
It was the opposite of it, was the opposite of history,
was the opposite of maths.
I love that's.
So we.
I didn't.
I didn't plan to talk to youabout this, but this is
fascinating.
I loved math still about thefourth, fifth grade, and I think
the reason was the teacher.
I did well because the teacherwas like you got it and I was
like topping my class.
(09:36):
Something happened in the fifthgrade and my confidence went
for a toss and apparentlythere's a lot of research that
says when girls don't do well atmaths, they don't get the same
level of encouragement as boys.
Boys are like no, no, no, no,push through.
And girls are like well, I'mnot sure if that happened with
me, but sometimes littleencouragement is all it takes
versus blanket statements likehey, I'm not really good at
(09:59):
maths, oh, wow, you've lostbefore you even started, right,
uh, and history is the opposite.
So, oh, this is fascinating.
I I'm I'm so happy we'retalking.
We barely just scratched thesurface, mike, so one of the
biggest things.
Mike (10:15):
So it's like you've got to speak into what people are
becoming, not what they are.
Um, you've got to see potentialand sometimes you haven't got
people backing you.
That's what a parent's role is.
It's like I've got you, I'mbacking you.
It's a safe space to grow, andthat goes into work, goes into
management, goes intomentorships, goes into people
that walk with you, goes intothe story that I'm about to
share with you with where we'reat now.
Sonal (10:38):
Yeah, let's talk about that, let's ahead.
Mike (10:42):
So your question was look, everything has a season Sonal
and nothing's wasted.
I think we can sort of go well,that was stupid.
This was not, because we'realways learning.
There's all this multi-sensorylearning, that we're learning
how we apply things, and I neverthink something's wasted.
So you've got to be carefulthat you don't allow anyone to
(11:03):
give you or them the authorityto validate you, because your
worth isn't defined by them,it's defined by who you are and
who you're becoming, becausewhat is done is done.
But I've also found in everyseason I've had, even in growth,
I use that model of deliveryand delivering through others.
You get to a point where youlearn and even as parents we
(11:25):
pass down to the next generation.
But also there's a generationabove us that we draw from to
gain knowledge and understandingand wisdom and counsel.
But definitely with myexperience, with being on the
tools, being in the field, beingin operations, being on
projects, understandingcontracts, understanding people,
understanding people, services,supply chains my role at shell
(11:48):
was very much when I leftwoodside was actually sort of
like a demotion, but the jobthat was actually was the
opportunity and what shell couldoffer where I could actually do
that.
I want to get into this companybecause it's a great company.
They look after their people,they're growing, they're the
best of the bunch, you know,know.
So I looked in and what I hadand what I was available to and
(12:09):
I thought, wow, I can actuallygo and apply to this job and
then look for opportunitieswithin the company.
So by doing that, it took aboutfive and a half months to be
recruited at Shell and it waslike 450 applicants.
It was hard.
I went through psychevaluations, I went through
assessments, two sets ofinterviews, and it came down to
two people in the end of thatand it was really me just saying
(12:31):
to them hey look, I really wantyou to believe in me because I
can do what you want me to do.
I'm going to do the best jobfor you, and that's that part of
you being able to sell yourself.
You've got to.
We want that opportunity to getto the interview and say I want
to sell myself.
I've got the skills to pay thebills.
But I also want to sell myselfbecause I'm bringing something
that no one else has, which isme.
I'm a brand and no one else hasthat, so it's bringing my
(12:52):
uniqueness to the table.
But, as I went into to work withShell, I started to realize
that there were people withinthe organization that were doing
stuff that I had been able todemonstrate before in previous
roles.
And it was very hard with theactual line manager that I had,
because I could see that therewas opportunity for growth and I
was naturally saying I can dothat, I can do that, and he's
(13:13):
like Mike, I know you think youcan do that, but I haven't seen
you do that.
But what I was able to get outof it was having opportunities
to demonstrate, which is wherewe can sometimes say, instead of
saying I know how to do that,well, they're just words, you've
actually got to show peoplethere.
There's so much truth andactually seeing is believing.
So, being able to have theopportunity to demonstrate that
(13:34):
I was put in positions where Icould stretch myself and stretch
those roles.
And because, coming back tothat mechanical mind of wanting
to know how things go together,it's been a natural trait of
mine, even with people.
I bring people together.
It's my Italian heritage thebig families, the big people,
and I love people.
I think people are great and Ithink when you see the best in
people, you get the best out ofthem.
(13:55):
So, naturally, having atechnical mind and also a people
skill, which is relationships,I was presented with some
opportunities to go into GoJ,which is where Prelude, which is
the largest floating gasfacility in the world.
It's 500 meters long, it'senormous, it's a mammoth of a
project and I was able to pulltogether a workshop which is a
(14:18):
startup ramp-up plan with allthe key figures.
Now I didn't know how to bringthe place on to station or to
build that ramp-up plan, but Iknew that it was a jigsaw puzzle
and I needed a surveillanceengineer, you needed an
operations manager, you needed amechanical engineer, you needed
a workshop for the supply chain, you needed certain people to
start the conversation, and whatI was able to do was facilitate
(14:39):
a workshop where it's like whatdo you think needs to happen
this, what do you think needs tohappen this, what do you think
needs to happen this?
And we started building apicture and a sequence and what
that actually allowed me to dois to build a startup ramp up
plan or bringing Prelude onstation with the key figures
getting into that planningmindset, and that put me in good
stead with the way that I wasable to work with people and
work with the management.
(15:00):
That put me in a position whenI got back to Perth well, this
guy's good.
And then there was someopportunities to apply with that
and I used that opportunitythat I was able to demonstrate.
So, always looking foropportunities to demonstrate
what I'm capable of and what Ican do, because we know what we
can do, but we've got tosometimes step out of our
comfort zone.
That presented the opportunityfor me to become a maintenance
(15:20):
team leader, where we weresolely responsible for looking
after the maintenance for amulti-billion dollar project and
getting this place up andrunning.
Sonal (15:29):
Very, very important that position.
I've worked in a couple offactory environments and the
safety trainings alone are likeI mean, this is so important,
the role you're talking about.
But love this and I want torecap this for the listener
because you shared a lot of gemshere.
I've got the skills that paythe bills.
What else can I demonstrate,right?
Um, as a baseline, a lot of usdo have the skills that pay the
(15:53):
bills, but I love that you saiddemonstrate like three times.
Yeah, and it's the spanish I'mremembering.
So you said italian.
You gotta show it like examples,like show, not just say you can
do something talk is cheap andand putting your money where
your mouth is right, puttingaction where where, what with
(16:14):
everything you're talking aboutthat people remember.
People remember results, right?
So, um, very important to betalking about how this helped
you to stand out.
I want to stay here just for aminute, mike, because I have a
follow-up question.
I have this with my own clients, my career coaching clients,
but also in general.
(16:35):
You know, you said I took italmost.
It was pretty much a demotion,which means that it wasn't a
lateral move, it wasn't upwards,it was actually a step lower.
And almost always, and almostalways, almost always what I
have seen is, when you gosomewhere where you take a step
down, it ends up being like Idon't know if you remember Paula
Abdul one step back, two stepsforward.
(16:55):
Yeah, uh, that song, what wasit?
opposites attract yeah, I'mdating it was one step forward,
two steps back the other wayaround, the other way around,
but you, but you got it.
You got it right.
Mike (17:05):
I got, yeah, I got yeah.
Sonal (17:06):
It's like that angry birds um catapult.
You know you go back and thenyou go so far ahead.
But that aspect of going backis very difficult for our
fragile little ego.
And what are people going tothink?
I'm earning less.
It's less title La la, da, da,da la.
Did you have any of that stuffwhen you were contemplating
(17:29):
coming to shell?
Mike (17:30):
absolutely, it's um.
Sonal (17:31):
But because you're human right.
Mike (17:33):
Hello, I think naturally we, we look at life as I've got
to get a, I've got to get a job,a better job.
I've got to get a car a abetter car.
It's a performance orientation,it is a comparative spirit.
It is naturally where wecompare ourselves to others.
Sometimes our title in a job iswhat validates us.
(17:54):
Naturally, what do we alwayssay to people?
We don't even listen to thewords coming out of our mouths.
We say to people what do you do?
It's not who you are.
No one says tell me aboutyourself.
It's very much a qualifyingquestion when someone says what
do you do?
And this was the position I wasin even at Shell.
It was like I know it.
For Shell I'm now themaintenance team leader of
(18:15):
Prelude.
I fly away offshore, I travelthe world.
There is some authority withthat.
Sonal (18:22):
It's designed for pleasing our ego.
Mike (18:24):
Yes, totally, and.
But it is.
You start to look at things andwe'll get to the shift of where
, where things have changed.
But you've got to come backsometimes and say, why do I do
what I do?
Because if you're chasing thenext title, the next position,
even in my one of my past roleswhich I had, which was pre
Woodsideside, there was thisposition where I gave people the
(18:45):
authority to validate me.
It was 12 years of my life, butthe title and the
responsibility, the job wastaken away from me in a
heartbeat.
And I'm like I've worked 12years to to earn my right and my
position in the company.
I was loyal and within a splitsecond it could get taken away
from you.
And it was like all of thattime and effort and and being so
(19:08):
vulnerable and so easilyfractured in that, in that
season where, for whateverhappened, there was like wow, um
, I shouldn't give people theauthority to validate me,
because if you do do that,you'll continue to come to work,
to get a pat on the back andone day it'll stop and then you
won't know who you are.
So it's's very important.
Even in my life, I've learned toreflect, I've learned to take
(19:30):
stock, I've learned to see howthings work, understand the self
and create space to think andstrategize.
Because even in that seasonlater on in life, I went through
a stress cycle where I thoughtI had it all together.
I thought I could do it all,and my mind was saying I could
do it.
My body was saying no and, um,I actually had a bit of a
(19:56):
breakdown.
But, um, me, being so arrogantand prideful in that it just
pressing through, started torealize that I've got to keep
going forward.
I've got to keep moving forward, but then there's got to be a
time where you've got to taketime to reflect, you've got to
take time to stop, you've got totake time to rest so that your
body can bring everything back,because you're not, you're a
machine.
And then, moving into thoselater years, it really affects
(20:17):
who you are as a person, butvery quickly, if you're the kind
of person that's going aroundthis is who I am by what I am
one day that'll stop.
And you're the kind of personthat's going around this is who
I am by what I am one daythat'll stop and you're left to
go and smell the roses.
And if you don't know what theysmell like you're not going to
enjoy them and you're going tobe sitting there going who am I?
Because that's what it's allabout.
It's about who am I.
(20:38):
It's great to have a great job,it's great to have a great
title, it's great to have aseason of life that was
enjoyable and is a reward foryour labour.
But money is just a resource.
It is not an identity, and whenyou find comfort in that and
security in that, it can reallymess with you because it becomes
that pursuit and it's neverenough and becomes a comparative
spirit and it's not healthy.
(21:01):
So becoming a dad Sonal is areally moving part of my career
and just going, what's lifereally about?
What's important, where is myvalue, where are my priorities?
Because naturally, we say thisand we do that.
We've got to be aware of thatand we've got to listen to that,
because if you don't, you startto see part of self manifesting
(21:23):
.
And why am I bitter, why am Iupset, why does that bother me?
And if you don't, you start tosee part of self-manifesting,
and why am I bitter, why am Iupset, why does that bother me?
And if you don't look in themirror and actually try to
unpack and have people you canwalk with and talk with and and
that know you, you you you'llnever understand why.
And then you're just not theperson that you'd hoped you'd
wanted to be, and it's, it's notabout the title oh no, it's
about what?
makes you tick yes.
Sonal (21:44):
So talk to us about that , because you, you are, you have
had time to deal with it.
You've had time to sort ofdivorce yourself from the ego
stuff and and explain it verywell today, but back in the day,
when you were looking at thecontract at shell, I'm sure it
wasn't easy, right?
So what do you want to say tothe person today who is thinking
(22:06):
about making a change andtemporarily it does look like a
step back, and they are, youknow, for all their reasons,
they are hesitating.
Mike (22:17):
You've got to understand your end game.
What's life about?
What's important to me, whatgets me out of bed, what
motivates me, what's my passions, what's my skill set?
There's things that we do a lot.
I'm a people person so Iunderstand that my skills are
transferable.
It doesn't have to be in oiland gas.
It doesn't have to be justabout the mechanics, the
maintenance.
There's an understanding of howthings go together.
(22:39):
But if there's an opportunitywhere you can skill up and
you're at a job that's doingnine to five and you're like I'm
bored and you're tapping out ina career path, that's like
there's no progression, there'sno opportunity, there's no
stretch.
Sometimes a change is good tofind that.
But don't just look at thecookie cutter Now I've done it
(23:02):
three or four times andobviously the shift in where
we're going to go to in the newventure that we're working on
and what we're doing as wherewe've gone into.
But don't be afraid to.
Don't continue to do what youkeep doing.
We do what we know how to doinstead of what you need to be
doing.
You've got to listen to yourvoice.
Go and speak to people likeyourself, stonehall, and say I
need some advice.
This is what I'm good at, howdo I do this?
How do I do it better?
(23:23):
You need that sounding boardbecause you only know what you
know and when you, like I said,with a parent, someone that's a
mentor can come in and say doyou know what?
I reckon you, something youdon't see would be really good
at this.
Have you thought of that?
No, because we are so narrowminded, we're so negative.
(23:43):
We've got our own narrative andit's like the world's against
me.
It's never going to get better.
But it's not going to getbetter if you don't do something
about it.
So you've got to act on that.
You've got to.
If you're irritated, try andunderstand it.
What's the next step?
I've got to go and speak tosomeone.
I've got to go and talk tosomeone.
But if you get up, you go towork.
You don't like work.
You go home, you go to bed.
(24:03):
You get up, you go to work.
You don't like work.
You go to bed.
Guess what?
After a couple of days andweeks, you don't like work.
Sonal (24:12):
You build a habit, you build a behavior where it's like
I don't like to go to work, youdon't like work, you don't like
yourself.
That's very true.
And because we were talkingabout childhood and kids, I just
remembered something sorandomly when, when I was a kid,
I remember there was a show ontv and it was somebody taught it
was a disciple.
It was I'm getting intoreligion for a second.
I'm not overtly religious, butit was a disciple of one of the
(24:33):
hundreds of gods we have inIndia.
And the guy asked the god, whatis the most surprising thing to
you in the world today?
And he said the most surprisingthing in you in the world today
.
And he said the most surprisingthing in the world is that
human beings think they havetime and they think that death
(24:54):
eludes them.
Right, the point is, if you'reunhappy at work, do something,
because we don't know whattomorrow brings, and the last
thing we want to do is take timefor granted.
It's not a way to live,especially when we spend so much
time at work.
Mike (25:10):
So now, and it's measured by effort, and we do say this to
people a lot I'm busy.
Just how are you, i'm'm busy?
It's an identity, it's, it'sartificial significance.
But badge of honor what we'recraving is connection.
But when I say I'm busy, I'mactually saying go away now.
We don't actually understandwhat we're saying, but we say it
(25:33):
because there's power in thetongue and there's there's
definite life in the power ofthe tongue.
And and time is that one thing,that, wherever it goes, whether
it's with you right now, I'mgiving you my time, I'm having
your time.
You feel valued, I feel valued.
It's a unit of effort.
Now we naturally write emailsyeah, I'll catch up with you,
I'll talk to you, but when wedon't actually give people our
time, this is the biggest thingI've had with my children.
(25:55):
My mom said this to me love isspelled T-I-M-E.
Wherever your time goes iswhere your love goes.
And this was also another shiftfor me.
With all the work, the latehours, the working for the man,
the working for the business,the working for the product.
It's like what is actuallyimportant to me.
And you've got to have thatposition where, on my hand,
(26:18):
these are the things that areimportant to me and if you don't
prioritize them, they areprioritized by your time.
So, um, if you're not lookingafter yourself, you're not
looking after your mind, you'renot looking after your family,
you're not looking after yourjob.
Um, those are the things thathave value and that's where your
time needs to go, becausethat's where you get the return
on investment.
And a lot of my time now needsto go into my kids, so that I'm
(26:40):
just present, I'm available, I'mat their sports games, I'm at
their school excursion.
I went to the zoo yesterdaywith my youngest son, matthew,
and he was like my dad's comingTo him.
That's his world.
My dad came to the zoo.
Sonal (26:56):
I love that.
Your mom said love is spelledD-I-M-E.
That's a keeper, that's akeeper.
I love that so amazing.
So, mike, you alluded to this,so you wrote somewhere that
after 20 years I got tired ofchasing titles for the sake of a
nice salary and an inflated ego.
So talk to us about what wasgoing on just before this latest
(27:21):
venture.
What was going on and what wasthe impetus to say to the man
I'm putting this in air quotesScrew this, I'm done.
Mike (27:31):
Yeah, look COVID.
I think COVID was a blessing.
It was the great reset.
I think, naturally, miseryloves company.
There was this is wrong, that'swrong.
It's that narrative.
But everything slowed down.
There was a reset of.
That was normal.
This is now the new normal.
(27:52):
Why do I do what I do?
We're busy, busy, busy.
Now we slow down.
Sonal (27:57):
And Australia especially because it was always in the
news.
Right, new, normal.
Why do I do what I do?
We're busy, busy, busy.
Now we slow down australia,especially because it was always
in the news.
Right, it was really insulatedfor a good part of two, three
years, yeah, even more yeah,look it's, but still, the
world's a big place.
Mike (28:08):
There's narratives, there's there's talk, there's
there's mindsets and and um,it's depending on where your
lens is is how you feed that.
But with covid it just youcouldn't do what you normally
did.
You couldn't do what was normal.
Why do I do what this is it?
Why do I do what I do now?
I found with the, the, the termthat I had with Woodside or
(28:31):
Shell I started as a, as a, as aturnaround plan.
I went to turn in engineeringand then I went into the
maintenance team lead role,which was around a four-year
term, where I was going to usethat four years as a launch pad
to go and start exploring therest of the world as an expat.
I got three passports.
There was an opportunity thereto travel, but again, it was the
(28:52):
next title, it was the nextresponsibility, it was the next
paycheck, it was just why do wedo what we do?
It was the next title, it wasthe next responsibility, it was
the next paycheck, it was justwhy do we do what we do?
And I suppose my dad said look,what's the end game, son?
Why do you do what you do?
And I understand my dad and hissuccess.
He could speak with thatauthority and go, son, just do
what's important.
He's had a lot of time to slowdown.
He's got three degrees and he'sbeen able to give me a picture
(29:18):
of like why he did what he didand what he had.
But now he's reflecting on thatand there's that knowledge
that's coming down from him andI just I just thought it was the
next job, it was the nextproject, it was the next swing,
it was the next upgrade, it wasthe new car, it was a bigger car
, it was getting a caravan andI'm just like it's just stuff
and it's just you're working forthat.
And I suppose I got to a pointwhere I felt like I'm now at the
(29:39):
top of the food chain.
I'm working for the biggest oiland gas company in the world in
one of the best roles that youcould ever dream of in the world
, one of the best companies inthe world.
I'm the biggest facility in theworld.
What's next?
Like I'm tapping out.
It's like an Olymp.
I think you're trying to chasethe next high and these are term
in the industry.
It's called golden handcuffs.
(30:00):
It's just like why do I do whatI do?
And I suppose the season I wasin it was like I'm offshore, I'm
working, I'm traveling, I'maway from what's important to me
and being away from that, I washaving a walk down the they
call it the green mile.
It from that.
I was having a walk down thethey call it the green mile.
It's where all the modules areand it's this corridor for the
(30:23):
process and you do a lot ofthinking time.
You go and do your walks, yougo see, you meet the team, you
engage with the team and I wasjust like, oh, is this it?
And I just felt this are yousatisfied?
And I'm like it's all right.
And naturally this narrativecomes in when I tell people what
I do I'm satisfied, I work forshell, I work offshore, and it
comes back to that.
(30:43):
Why are you giving people theauthority to validate you?
And you consistently start tochase this and I've got to go to
another meeting, make anothermeeting, present another meeting
.
I'm just like what does it looklike outside of shell?
What does it look like after ofShell?
What does it look like afterShell?
What does the next role inShell look like?
And I suppose that is sometimesa road less traveled for people,
but you've got to becomfortable with where you're at
(31:06):
going.
Okay, I'm comfortable, I wasvery comfortable, like the money
was great at Shell, thebenefits were great, being
financially free is a greatplace to also be.
But then you just go.
There must be more, you knowthere must be more.
So being in a position ofcomfort and being satisfied and
still working hard, puttingexcellence to your role and
(31:27):
doing things well, you've got tobe able to sort of entertain.
What does that look like?
So, leaning into that, I walkedthrough this thought pattern for
about six months, just goingwhat does it look like?
What does it be?
Am I satisfied?
Am I not?
Because you go to work, you dowhat you know how to do and you
do it well.
And then there's other thingsand I just sort of lent in that,
(31:48):
spoke to my wife, talked itthrough and she was like what
You're thinking about changing?
And the world has a funny wayof working things out, like with
with COVID, and then thecompany went for a reshape and
with the reshape it basicallyput everyone's role in jeopardy,
where you could either applyfor your role again or you could
look at other roles.
And it just got me thinking fora few things with.
(32:12):
I chose to do four years as alaunch pad.
I didn't want to stay offshore.
It wasn't my.
If I stay here, this is it.
I just constantly go offshore.
Come home, I don't like thedisconnect, the reconnect, the
rollercoaster of being home,being away.
It's not healthy, it's not good, but it works for some.
But there was a season that I'dcommitted to, which was four
years, and then there wasopportunities to look at some
(32:33):
expat roles and otheropportunities around Shell and
I'm just like I don't know.
I think I'm done.
And that's where the interceptcame with being in a position
where Paul, who was my very goodfriend, who's the founder of
User, who I'm working for now wewere talking and I've always
(32:54):
had a genuine interest in whathe's doing he goes why don't you
come work for me?
And I went what?
And it was just I would havebeen continuing to do what I was
doing.
I probably would have foundanother role in another part of
the business or another company,another go back into
maintenance coordination orsomething.
I know how to do, but I'm likeit doesn't.
There's no passion there.
(33:15):
There's no drive there.
I know how to do, but I'm likeit doesn't.
There's no passion there,there's no drive there.
I know how to do it.
I was like, oh, you want me tocome work for you?
And that's where we transitionedinto this next season of my
life with YouthVerve, which isthe exciting part, where I was
okay with entertaining theseoptions.
And I think the biggest thingthat Paul ever said to me.
He said, michael, it's not whatI need, it's who you are.
(33:36):
And that was the part thatreally kicked me, because it's
like it's who you are is what Ineed in my company.
And I think that really made mestart to realize it's not about
saying I worked for Shell, Iworked for Woodside, I worked
for Conoco, I worked for allthese companies that define me,
because naturally that doesdefine you.
But then when someone seessomething beyond the paper,
(33:56):
beyond the skill set, and says Iactually need who you are,
because it's only myself who canbring that, and that's where,
yes, the skills will pay thebills, but everyone has a brand
and everyone's got to carry that, and that's what takes you into
next season.
Sonal (34:10):
Wow, what a what a what a story.
I'm sure it wasn't easy goingthrough this.
It wasn't easy for your wifebecause the comfort, like you
said, the stability of full-timework and a comfortable paycheck
that disrupts the status quo.
So I'm glad you said that itwasn't like a eureka moment.
It was something you thoughtabout for six months.
(34:30):
You spoke to your dad, youspoke to your wife all the
people that matter and this iswhat you did.
So I like two specific things.
You said why are you givingthem the authority to validate
you?
That is so important.
I've just returned.
Right now we're recording thisat a time where I've just
(34:51):
returned from a 15-year MBAreunion and you know that stuff
the outwardly stuff if you'reviewed as successful, it could
change in a couple of years.
So it doesn't matter.
What matters is how you thinkabout yourself, right, and not
give anyone the authority tovalidate you or not validate you
(35:12):
just as important, right?
What people call the impostersyndrome.
And the second sounds like amatch made in heaven.
It's not what I need.
It's it's not what I need, it'swho you are today.
So you were like oh, you musthave been swooning.
You're like sign me up and youknow the at the same time, I was
thinking out loud, you know,when, um, we're given a lot of
(35:35):
advice, sometimes unsolicitedadvice, from friends, from
parents, especially from family,and one of the most common
things I hear is never get intobusiness with friends, never
lend friends money and all ofthat stuff.
Don't mix money and friendship.
Don't mix business.
You're obviously the exceptionto that, but were you, did you
(35:56):
hesitate a bit, no matter howwell you know each other?
Did you hesitate a bit becausethere is a little bit of a risk?
Mike (36:03):
no, I think they say that because it's it's emotion
involved and it's raw, but I Ithink the best relationship you
can have is with someone youknow um it.
But there's a point I think wedon't naturally like to work
through conflicts.
I'm very much a I mean, myfamily has come from a phase of
the Italians.
You've got a problem, you sayit, you speak it, I'm sorry.
(36:24):
We're open, we're honest, butwe're also very secure people.
We know who we are and I thinkeven with Paul, who's the CEO of
Useverb, he's always someonethat has believed in me and
that's great to hear about whatyou're doing.
It was never about what are youdoing now.
What are you doing now?
What's the role, what's theposition?
(36:45):
There's always been thisnatural inclination of how
you've been.
So I think the fact that I'vejourneyed with Paul and I
understood Paul and I knew Paul,I don't think we actually know
our personal value sometimes andI think in a world we live in
today, sona, we're not speakinginto people anymore and our
motto on our shirt, that's it,it's speak life, you know, and
(37:07):
we look at what we can take frompeople and that's, whether it's
a position or a title or amaking me feel better than you,
and I think the best thing youcan do sometimes is speak into
someone else and see the valuein them, because people need to
hear that.
And if there's things you likeabout people, go and tell them
and say do you know what?
I love your smile, I love theway that you interact, because
(37:29):
that's the way the world works,that's the way we work together,
that's the way that you bring aroom together.
That was the same skill set,which was a soft skill, which
was why I was put in thatposition at Shell to bring that
team together for the startupramp-up plan, because it was
like hey, I know there'ssomething in you that they
haven't seen yet.
What do you think?
What do you think?
And bringing the room together.
(37:49):
One of the other things I didat Shell was I was the president
of the social club and that wasjust bringing the fabric
together of people and helpingpeople understand, because at
the end of the day, look,there's always a job to be done,
but if you can do it withpeople you enjoy working with, I
guarantee you get so muchbetter out of people.
So, with Paul, he was very mucha good friend of mine that
(38:12):
we're journeying with and evenpre-use.
Paul had a very successfulrobotics company.
Just, he's like an elon musk ofperth.
He's got top 40 under 40 ernestyoung awards, engineer of the
year twice.
He had a robotics company uh,very impressive.
He's got two degrees, uh,mechatronics, marketing, um, and
he was doing the cool stuff.
He wasn't the, the cookie cutter.
(38:33):
I've now got my title, I've nowgot my job.
He's just, he's like a moverand shaker.
He's an entrepreneur.
He'll never have a boss, he'shis own boss.
He's like no, I'm the man and Ialways respected that, because
there's a quiet confidence andan arrogance that goes with that
.
It's like, yes, I know who I amand I know what I am, and that's
why I've always surrounded mypeople with strong men and
(38:54):
strong women that can, that wantto do things, that do want to
do greatness, do want to do bigthings, and I think we're all
built for greatness.
So I just don't think we tapinto that sometimes and we come
back to that, that dream.
I wanted to be an astronaut.
What happened?
You know what, what?
What stopped you?
And I think the world doesbring you down and it does
discourage you and it does levelyou out, but you've got to say
(39:17):
no, I'm better than that.
So, yeah, if you're not hearingthat, you're not saying that,
you've got to surround yourselfwith the right people that can
speak into that and pull you outof that and lift you up and say
this is what I see.
Wow, I forgot, that's who I am.
And I think Paul did that forme in that moment, which was
very well timed, and the season.
Sonal (39:35):
I was in Perfect timing and he's like Mike.
Mike (39:37):
I need magic Mike.
I need you to bring the life tothe business.
Sonal (39:41):
A different kind of magic Mike and wow, and it
happened.
This is amazing.
So, yeah, good for you, perfecttiming.
I think the owning yourgreatness unapologetically is is
what's.
It's what's needed.
Don't have to be arrogant to doit.
(40:02):
I love that quiet confidence.
I love how Adam Grant talksabout it.
So this is beautiful.
Talk to us about UseVerb.
So the listener, you're likehey, useverb, u-s-e-v-e-r-b.
Talk to us about this company.
Where did this idea come from?
What was the tech stack lookinglike?
This is a completely differentworld for you.
(40:23):
How did you learn all of thisstuff?
Talk to us about is it funded,is it venture backed or is it,
you know, going sort of adifferent sort of Canva route,
looking for investors locally,like where is the company today
and what do you do?
And I think when you explainthis, this is going to be
helpful to the listener, becauseyou're going to know, dear
(40:45):
listener, you're going to knowwhy I'm talking to mike about
this, because this is rightright up my right up my alley.
Mike (40:50):
Go for it, mike well, strap yourself in you for a ride
here.
So, um, look, paul pre-gfc wasa very successful in his
robotics industry.
Uh, he was doing cutting edgestuff, um, and he was growing at
an accelerated rate.
He had contracts with themining industry and he was
moving into that phase where thecompany was about to grow
(41:12):
parabolically and really kickoff and he wanted to build a
bigger team and a better team.
And because he was winning allthese awards and he was
innovative, he was disruptive.
It was robotics man, it waswinning all these awards.
Then he was innovative, he wasdisruptive, it was it's robotics
man, it's cool, you know, it'scool stuff.
And he had all these peopleturn up for an interview, which
was like, I mean, maybe like wasit five or 600 people turning
(41:35):
up for an interview?
And he's like whoa, I cannotinterview all these people.
And it comes back to that timething.
Sonal (41:41):
I turned up like on site .
Mike (41:43):
They were like oh yeah, yeah, he had over the week, 500
people coming for this interview.
Because he was like, if you'reinterested, come meet me.
And he's like, well, this istoo many people.
And it's like he just theproblem.
He was like I don't have timeto meet all these people, but I
would love to meet all thesepeople.
So the thing that he toeveryone that turned up and
called themselves an engineer bywhat they were they had a pair
(42:07):
of RM Williams boots, they had apair of Chinos pants and a
checkered shirt and a nice fancypen.
I'm an engineer, but he's likewhere's the innovators?
Where's the creators?
Where's the bright sparks?
Where's the people that thinkoutside the box?
Not the people that just dowhat's required?
That's the 70% of this world.
But there's also this capacityof people that like to move past
that and he says I couldn't seethat on paper.
(42:29):
He said I read the resume.
This is what you do, this isyour skillset, this is your
experience.
And he goes.
If I just had a short littlevideo of who they were, I would
know within a split second ofwho I want to actually meet and
see in the interview.
So same thing we do on a firstdate.
It's literally that 27 secondpitch where we're like hey, nice
(42:49):
to meet you.
I like what I see.
It's not visually, it's just.
I like what I'm feeling about.
My gut's telling me something Iwant to know more.
I've got a good feeling aboutthis.
Sonal (42:59):
I like what I feel.
I like what I feel right Like.
See here all of that.
Mike (43:04):
So that's where the idea was born.
Sonal (43:06):
That's where the idea was born by over, like people
applying because he said comeand see me, and then later he
was like no, no, don't come andsee me, like I can't, I can't.
Mike (43:15):
Paul's a real positive guy and he wants to meet people and
he will give anyone the time ofday.
He's a great resource and he'sa real mover and shaker in the
industry.
But it's literally.
There's something we donaturally Sonal, which is
natural, which is people we'rerelatable there's physically,
sexually, emotionally, mentally,biologically everything goes
together.
(43:36):
And we've, in this day and age,we've tried to fabricate that.
Facebook's about buildingrelationships, instagram's about
creating moments, pinterest isabout ideas, twitter is about
opinions.
I mean, come on, we're notdoing what we should be doing.
And what do we do?
Sonal (43:49):
We say we're busy and we push everyone away, the social
part, the social part of socialmedia.
We've got to find that way toreconnect.
Mike (43:56):
We've got to rehumanize recruitment and it's not fair.
Again, I'm talking to this whatand who narrative, measuring
someone based on what they are.
We're taking names off resumes.
Now we're taking pictures.
We're taking people out of theequation.
We're starting to use chat, gpt.
Now Everyone's starting to lookthe same.
What makes us different?
It's you.
You're unique, you're a brandowner.
(44:17):
That's what you're selling.
If everyone's the same, thepoint of difference is you.
What are you bringing to thetable?
So Paul took this idea on theback of his robotics company.
He went to New York, sanFrancisco, silicon Valley, built
a proof of concept, tested itwith Under Armour, tested it
with American Express, tested itwith Johnson Johnson's, had a
(44:38):
pre-sale of the Super Bowl andwent whoa, this is getting big,
this is cool.
Wanted to bring it back toAustralia and make it an
Australian-owned company.
There's a real something aboutbeing a proud Australian.
And he built his dev team.
He got his brother involvedwho's Grant, who's the CIO of
the company and started buildingthe people that believed in his
vision.
(44:58):
Well, our vision is here toconnect and coordinate the
world's workforce.
We want to become the world'sbiggest employer with no
employees.
And that started thedevelopment of getting a product
that works, to a product thatwe can scale, and the whole idea
now is for the last six yearsof development.
This has all been bootstrappedby Paul in terms of where he's
moving forward, which is great,because we haven't got people
(45:20):
coming into the company sayingyou must do this.
Sonal (45:24):
Looking over your shoulder.
Wow, it destroys Six years, sixyears.
It started in 2018.
And I'm sure you had memoriesof your own.
Mike (45:35):
Seven years now.
Sonal (45:36):
Seven years and I'm sure you had memories of your own
five and a half months gettingyou know, getting that job at
Shell.
Five and a half months, gettingyou know, getting that job at
shell five and a half months istwo-third of a human pregnancy.
Yeah, yeah, you know.
And and for you said 450applications.
So now it's, now it's, so it'slive.
Use verb is live, it's ready.
(45:56):
Like how do we get access?
Is it b2b?
Mike (45:59):
talk to us about that yeah , it looks b2b2B, b2c, literally
.
Just to come back to where wedeveloped we developed a lot of
this in stealth.
We built our authority.
Everything you see on Instagram, facebook, tiktok, medium,
twitter, all those platformsit's all organic.
It's real, genuine, organicgrowth which was positioning us
in the market, to positionourselves globally now and we've
(46:22):
only just gone to market earlythis year and we had a proof of
concepts go to market it waslate last year signed up 200
companies.
We know it sells.
That was the one-to-one thatwas testing the product in the
market.
Now we're starting to move.
We're Paul's in Houston.
He's been there for two yearsto get this around the world.
We've just set up our salesteam in South America.
We've got our marketing team insouth africa, our dev teams in
(46:45):
estonia.
Sonal (46:46):
We've got paul and houston.
We've got affiliates around theworld.
A quick question are you guyshiring?
We're always hiring hey, dearlistener, check out the website,
use verb.
So wow, it sounds like you knowthat sort of startup scale up
phase with so much going on, soI'm guessing it's B2B to C as
well right.
Mike (47:06):
So we're very much a company facing product, which is
allowing job seekers to applyin a better way, because what's
happening in the market at themoment Sonal is people continue
to do what they know how to doinstead of what they need to be
doing.
I will continue to write aresume.
Every job you go to you canhave a fancy website, you
Continue to write a resume Everyjob you go to.
You can have a fancy websiteYou've got to put a cover letter
.
Sonal (47:25):
No one reads them, no I know no one reads them.
I've been saying this for yearsthat I get torn down Like, oh
my God, it's a way todistinguish yourself.
I'm like, really I never read acover letter in my life.
Maybe it is, but no one'sreading them.
Mike (47:36):
The person that wrote theirs with their hand on their
heart and the person that wroteit on ChatGPT they both look the
same.
Sonal (47:44):
They both look the same.
A lot of them are ChatGPT.
Why would I waste my timereading that anyway?
Mike (47:50):
And what's happening in the market now.
Sonos is making it even worsefor recruiters With the Quick
Apply feature as well, with allthese platforms.
When you've loaded in theseapplications, it actually scans
your application and it says toyou as a job seeker these are
all the jobs you can do.
So what do I do?
You get reduced to the doubletap.
I applied on all these jobs 50jobs.
Now, as a hiring manager, I'vegot 50 applications on top of 50
(48:13):
people, 250 applications comingin for people that had the
quick apply.
When I start calling them upsaying hey, so no, I'm just
ringing up about the job youapplied to, you're like, hey,
which job?
Sorry, how much are you paying?
Not interested.
So it's not helping anyone.
And this is where the marketMexican standoff has happened.
Job seekers are getting sick ofwriting resumes and cover
(48:35):
letters because nobody readsthem and companies are trying to
find great people.
So there's something that needsto happen, there's something in
the shift and companies aretrying to find great people.
Sonal (48:44):
So there's something that needs to happen.
There's something in the shift.
I'm imagining Nacho Libre, jackBlack oh my gosh and that's
what you guys are doing.
So I love that.
And, mike, you know thisquestion I'm going to ask you.
You know this is coming.
There's always the what if,what about?
So talk to us about how youanswer this with people who
criticize and say this looksgreat.
Talk to us about how you answerthis with people who criticize
(49:06):
and say this looks great.
But it's very beneficial topeople who are naturally
confident in front of the camera.
Right, you're talking aboutyourself.
It's a video cover letter.
Maybe I don't feel confidentbeing in front of the camera.
Am I going to be discriminatedagainst?
Already there's ageism, sexism,racism, colorism all the
(49:30):
reasons.
Mike (49:30):
What would you say to that ?
Sonal (49:31):
Tokenism.
Look, you've still got to go tothe interview.
Mike (49:32):
Right, yes, you've still got to meet someone and say, hey
, well, I'm good for the job.
Now, if you want to get a footin the door, where's the old
fashioned way of just walking upto the owner and saying, hey,
I'm a hard worker, I do a goodjob, I'll turn up on time?
Just the basics.
You can do that in a video.
Now what we're also findingcoming back to your point with
the separation of introverts,extroverts one thing we're
(49:54):
finding is, firstly, it's givingextroverts who aren't good on
paper sometime.
Now, I'm a very much anextrovert but I'm also good on
paper.
But I love the ability.
I can just get to the interview, I can sell it, I can show you
what I can bring.
I can bring the people elementand as you move up in promotion,
it's not about what you can do,it's who you are, because you
need to work through people.
Now also for the introverts ifyou're not confident in an
(50:17):
interview, guess what You'regoing to walk into that
interview.
First impression you have a wetfish handshake and say, hi, I
really want this job.
That's your first impression.
Now, if you can do a shortlittle video and you can
practice it, it's short form 27seconds.
It's like TikTok for jobs,where you can actually record it
, you can delete it, you can goforward, you can go back and
(50:37):
when you're happy with it howgood would that be You're the
one making the first impression.
As much as the market haschanged and it's about trying to
find people.
If you really want that job andyou want to stand out, why
don't you do something thatmakes you stand out?
Put a face to the name, allowthem to meet you before they
meet you in person and this iswhere the platform comes to life
is, instead of people hittingthat quick, apply, the people
(50:59):
that do the video want the job.
Because it's not easy.
I've got to put who I am in avideo and say, hey, I really
want this job.
We're even finding it workingin the disability sector.
We had a case with one of thesebig employment service
providers where they actuallyhad sent in their resume and I
speak from experience with myown sister.
(51:19):
She's mildly autistic.
The question we're always askingas employers we want to help,
we want to work with disability,but we're actually asking not
me to be rude, but how disabledare you?
How much do I need to carry?
How much do I need to manageand you can't see that on paper.
That's why the employmentservices come in to say I want
you to see the person Literally,I want you to see the person
(51:41):
for who they are.
Now, if they can do that on thevideo which they did with our
platform, what they said no toon paper they said yes to in the
video they went absolutely nowall we're offering is more
points of data personality first, resume second to give you a
more well-rounded hiringapproach and allow you to hire
with confidence.
Now understood if you can meetpeople before you meet them,
(52:01):
have a a short little video andgo.
I liked that.
I want to know more.
Guess who's come to theinterview the best of the bunch,
not the best of the bad hiresthat, when they walk in the door
, the cost of your business, thecost of setting up the
interview, the cost of actuallytraining that person that
doesn't want to be in the jobafter six months because you've
shortlisted someone else, basedon an ATS system that looks at
keyword searches.
That sets up an interview witha hiring manager that says where
(52:23):
did you get these people from?
It's about people, right?
So let's get real and stopdodging the bullet.
We've got to rehumanizerecruitment.
We've got to put people back inthe application and see the
value in people.
Bring the connection back andshow people that have value.
Give them an opportunity to sayI really want this job.
Can I show you, as opposed tosomeone that knows how to write
(52:45):
a script in AI that cheats thesystem.
Sonal (52:48):
And the cheating, the system and the AI and automation
is.
I think we're at an extremesort of end of the spectrum
right now and you're bringing itback to the middle, which is
the human centric approach torecruiting, like it was in the
80s and 90s.
The human centric approach torecruiting like it was in the
80s and 90s, but without the ick, without the walk-in 400 people
like we used to see in themovies back then, because this
(53:10):
is a way to meet them before youmeet them.
I like that.
I like that and I also thinkthat, yes, first introduction,
it's the first introduction andyes, it is hard.
You're absolutely right, noneof us likes to, particularly.
You know, covid forced a lot ofpeople to sort of look at
themselves on zoom and therewere a lot of like body, like
you know, I don't like how Ilook and and there was a lot of
(53:31):
research on how, um, people werelike getting under the knife
for cosmetic surgery because mynose is too long.
I never had to see it till Ihad to look at myself every day,
five days a week during zoommeet.
So it's not easy, right?
But at the same time, if you'resecure in yourself, secure ish
in yourself, good enough.
Um, there is less competitioncompared to the quick apply,
(53:56):
because everyone's going to theeasy apply, the quick applied.
One button and your, yourresume has gone to 50 jobs.
Uh, and someone calls you.
It's literally like I order,like if I order 10 things on
amazon and, and and people arelike, hey, you, you asked, I'm
like, oh, there's a, there's abox outside, oh, I wonder which
one.
It is forgotten about it yeah,but with this, you're not going
(54:17):
to be doing mass sort ofapplications right.
You'll have a more targetedapproach, so it's really a
win-win in that sense the bestthing is we had a.
Mike (54:25):
We had a, a dispenser optometrist.
I don't know if you heard ofspec savers.
Sonal (54:30):
They're a big yeah, they're a big brand.
Mike (54:32):
Uh, we just signed them up and um congratulations one of
the owners of spec savers justsays I want people that
represent my store.
I want people that understandmy customers.
Now he had looked at a coupleof applications for paper and
he's like, when the person camein, they were like they weren't
well presented, they weren'tsmiling, they weren't clean cut,
(54:53):
they didn't tuck their shirt in, they didn't speak well, and
it's like look, let's get realhere.
You can't write that on paper.
You need to see it right, likeeverything, seeing is believing.
When someone says I'm good atthis, show me.
We're moving into a marketplacenow where I trust you.
But post-COVID, you need toback it up.
You need to verify it becauseI'm going to call you out on it.
I need to connect with theresults and with the person that
(55:16):
applied to this job.
She saw that they had a QR codeout the front.
You've got any jobs?
Yes, scan the QR code.
We're doing video now.
She was a little bit nervous.
Go to our website, have a look.
It's on our YouTube page,specsavers.
She was a little bit nervous,but she's like I got sick of
writing about my strengths andweaknesses and she's like I've
done the job before.
I love your brand.
(55:36):
I'd love to come a job.
When she walked into the store,the owner was like hey, sarah,
nice to meet you.
She's like wow, they know myname.
I feel like I know you Exactly.
Tell me a bit more about you.
It was already.
It already broke the wall downwhere we were concerned about
what are they going to think ofme Now when someone says to you
I liked your video, yeah, you'relike you, like me and this next
(55:59):
generation that's coming in.
So I just to get a little bitdeeper on this.
They are asking do I matter?
Now again coming back tospeaking life, if we can shift
the market and stop taking whoout of hiring and put who back
into hiring and say I like you,I like what I see.
That's going to boostconfidence in people.
(56:19):
That's going to boost themarket.
That's going to boost theeconomy.
That's going to connect andcoordinate this workforce.
That's going to boostconfidence in people.
That's going to boost themarket.
That's going to boost theeconomy.
That's going to connect andcoordinate this world workforce.
That's going to get us out ofthe rut we're in, because it's
about people exactly like sarahgot the job.
She's like.
I actually really enjoyed umcoming to the interview because
I felt like they knew me yeah,and I was actually so excited
about moving past instead ofgoing having a bad morning a bad
(56:41):
interview, sorry, you know.
Sonal (56:42):
Suitable because because the way historically we talk
about interviews is like it's socomforting Instead of going
having a bad morning, a badinterview.
Sorry, you're not suitable,because the way historically we
talk about interviews is likegoing into battle, and this one
is like hey, we're on the sameteam here, you know.
Let's make this happen.
That dude wants her to get thejob.
She wants to get the job.
A lot of people don't realizeactually it's a collaborative
effort and if a tool like thiscan help, then why not?
I have a quick rapid firequestion for you Before we moved
(57:04):
.
I can't believe we've comeclose to the end.
We've been talking for a whileand it has gone so fast, mike,
but I know it's late for you.
Mike (57:10):
Let's do a part two.
Sonal (57:13):
You're right, we might have to do a part two, but
before I let you go because yousaid you're hiring a lot and the
person who's listening andyou're like Mike sounds like a
great guy.
I'd love to work with him and Idid a quick search on LinkedIn
while you were speaking rightnow.
It says something like 30employees already probably,
maybe approximately.
What would you say to someonewho's interested in either
(57:33):
working at UseVerb or a startupscale up that's going to explode
soon and you're looking for anA team?
Give me the top three qualities.
You don't have to explain whatthey are, just give me the words
, the adjectives, the top threequalities that you look for when
you're recruiting your A team.
Mike (57:54):
It's your attitude, not your aptitude, that determines
your altitude.
Sonal (58:00):
I trust Mike to come up with a tweetable, because
everything you've said so farhas been a tweetable.
It's about character.
Mike (58:06):
It's not competence, don't get me wrong.
You've got to have competency.
You've got to be able to do thejob, but you've got to work
with people.
Work should be fun.
You should be able to come towork and not worry about doing
nine till five.
If you're not doing that atwork, find another job.
Find something that gets youout of bed that you really enjoy
doing, because you never work aday in your life if you do that
.
Sonal (58:25):
Yeah, 100%.
I love that.
It's your attitude, not youraptitude, that determine your
altitude Beautifully said.
One last question for you, mike.
If you look back on the lastcouple of decades of your career
, what is that one standoutdefining moment that
supercharged your career andhelped you to move closer to
(58:47):
your current success?
Mike (58:50):
your name is your brand.
So when you do things, do itwith excellence, I'll be honest.
So I'm actually a lazy person.
I don't like to do things twice, but if I'm going to do it once
, I do it right first time and Ido it with excellence because
when I do it, people know that Idid that and when I do things,
it gets done.
So, um, put your name on it,because if you don't get it
(59:12):
finished, even my, my, uh, mydad just said is, if you start
something, you finish better,because everyone knows how to
start something, not everyoneknows how to finish.
So if you've got a mindset ofyou, look at the first day of
school.
Everyone's got a new lunchbox,new uniforms or a new job, new
career, or you're going to starta workout or you're going to
start a run.
If you say you're going to doit this is what teach my kids,
(59:33):
even with sports and and studiesum, if you put your name to say
I'm going to do it, you betterdo it.
Sonal (59:40):
Yeah, I mean, is there a particular memory?
I don't want to hear yourexcuse, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is there a particular memory ormoment that comes to mind that
that moment supercharged the wayyou're, the way you're talking
about it, the way this wassomething my dad used to drill
into me.
Mike (59:54):
I don't want to hear your excuses, I want results.
You said you would do it.
You're you're I want.
But that's where my mindsetscome from.
It's like with every problem.
I see I'm already looking atthree options.
So Dad's built this capacityfor me.
I find it hard to sit withgrief sometimes because I'm
already moving into the healingprocess of like we need to move
forward.
Where sometimes I find it hardwith my wife, we've got to sit
(01:00:14):
there and grieve.
But it's about having aproactive approach of sometimes
you need to sit with things,sometimes you need to move
forward.
But I'd approach of sometimesyou need to sit with things,
sometimes you need to moveforward.
But, um, I'd really say, if youstart something, make sure you
finished it, because that's whatyou measured on.
Um, yes, it's, it's likeeverything.
It's it's the last thing youdid.
It's not what you intended todo, it's not what you were going
to do.
It's what you did.
Um, seeing is believing and uh,talk is cheap.
Sonal (01:00:38):
So you say you're going to do something I like.
I love that.
You ended way Beautiful.
And what's the best way forpeople to learn more about you,
Mike?
Where can they follow?
Mike (01:00:47):
you Usewebcom, we're going to be the world's biggest
employer with no employees.
We are a completely new way tohire.
We are the people's job board.
We're just like every other jobboard, but better.
Going to market right now in2024.
Sonal (01:01:00):
And you're such a great ambassador to the company Global
domination.
That is what Magic Mike isgoing for.
You heard it here first.
Ladies and gentlemen, mike,this has been such a pleasure.
I wish you continued success atUseVerb, at everything you do.
I hope there's a book comingand beyond.
(01:01:21):
Thank you so much for your time, your energy and your
generosity thank you so much, soI really appreciate your time
as well.
Mike (01:01:30):
Uh, I do value these and I love, I love a platform to, to,
to speak life into the market.
Even your listeners you neverknow who's listening, but I'll
just encourage them to, to reachout to, even if it's yourself.
They need advice on wherethey're at and where they're
going.
It's really important to findpeople.
That it says for lack of vision, your people perish.
So find your people, you findyour purpose.
(01:01:52):
So, if you like what Sonal wastalking about, continue to
listen, get fed, speak life, goto market and be the best you
can be.
Sonal (01:02:00):
Thank you.
Hey there, thank you for takingthe time to listen to today's
show.
If you loved it, please doleave me a review.
On Apple Podcasts.
I search high and low to bringyou the very best guests, and
I'm so proud to bring you theirstories and game-changing career
lessons.
The best compliment that youcould ever give me is taking a
(01:02:24):
screenshot of today's episodeand sharing it with your
LinkedIn network and tagging meat Sonal Behl S-O-N-A-L-B-A-H-L.
All right, I look forward tospending time together on the
next episode of the how I GotHired podcast.
Take care of yourself and byefor now.
Hey, welcome back and thank you for tuning in to
today's episode.
My guest, michael Smith, isjoining us all the way from
Perth, australia.
Michael has had a prettysuccessful career in the energy
sector in Australia, thePhilippines and South Korea, and
at his latest corporate role,he was offshore maintenance team
(00:29):
lead at a teeny, tiny oil andgas company called Shell.
You may have heard of it I'mkidding.
It's one of the world's largestand he sounds like a very
important dude right In thatspace.
But hold on, there's a plottwist.
Two years ago, in 2022, mikedecides to leave Shell and his
(00:49):
corporate career far behind andstarts at a recruitment tech
company, something he had nodirect experience in, something
he's never had any background in.
Why did he do it and how has itbeen going in the last couple
of years?
And what on earth is thisrecruitment tech company?
(01:13):
That part is the one I'm mostinterested in To learn all about
this and much, much more.
Let's welcome Mike.
Hey, mike, welcome to the show.
Mike (01:24):
What an introduction, Sonal, Thank you so much for
having me.
I'm very excited to be here andtell you about my journey and a
bit of the pattern interrupt myMoses moment and where I was
and where I am and where we'regoing.
Sonal (01:37):
Mike, that sounds great, so I am super excited to talk
about, let's say, your lifere-venture.
How?
Mike (01:46):
far do you want to go back ?
Sonal (01:48):
The oil and gas world right.
So I want to go to these 20years because you know oil and
gas and you were pretty loyal inthat sector.
You didn't sort of go from oiland gas to retail, to pharma.
You pretty much, you know, sortof stayed in that space and I
know Australia has lots ofreserves.
Reserves it's got lots ofcopper um mining sort of you
(02:12):
know professions related to the.
The materials are quite umpopular, quite common in
australia.
But I want to know about thekid Mike Smith.
Mike (02:25):
The kid Mike Smith.
Sonal (02:26):
Yeah, so was this a dream to be in the oil and gas.
Like did you have, like I havea two-parter here Never.
Mike (02:34):
I think they're the titles we get and they're the jobs we
land in.
But there's always an appetitefor who we are as people and I
think that forms us into thepeople that we've become.
I think even at an age of fiveI used to put the old milk
carton box on my head and thinkI was an astronaut.
I had a fascination withaeronautics.
I love speed.
(02:56):
I'm built for efficiency, Ilike fast, I like muscle cars, I
like fast cars, I like jetplanes.
I actually wanted to be in theAir Force but with my asthma I
had a chronic condition as achild that sort of inhibited
that.
But I think with who I was atthe time as a child I had every
toy mom and dad used to give me.
(03:17):
I was always there with ascrewdriver, you know, pull it
apart.
I want to know how this goestogether.
So I had a fascination for howthings went together.
I had a drive to understand,like I needed to know how this
works, and I think that just ledme into that journey of picking
up tools as a kid, working oncars, working on engines, which
(03:38):
also moved into my precision ofthings.
I was very much a perfectionistat a young age and wanted to do
everything right, do everythingwith excellence.
I got into architecture drawing.
I did a bit of work experienceas an architect and I was like,
nah, that's not for me, I'm outof school.
I then got into civilengineering, which I went this
is boring, it's about roads,it's about static forces but
(04:00):
then realized, oh, I should justgo into mechanical, and the
mechanical really brought thescience and the dynamics of how
things go together, the movingparts of gears and bending
moments and forces and fluids,and it really helped me
understand not just on aphysical, on a property level,
how things behave and interact.
So that moved me into my careerwith oil and gas and at the same
(04:24):
time I was actually doing atrade in fitting and turning, so
being able to work with thetools, the machines, the
equipment on the practical sideand then apply that to the
theoretical side.
I was able to put two and twotogether and that really set me
up in a position where I couldmove forward in the companies
that I worked for and then, likeanything, as you work your way
(04:44):
up in any company, you start atthe bottom, you, you deliver,
and then you start to deliverthrough others, you deliver for
people, you deliver throughcommunities, you deliver through
teams.
And that really set me up intothose later years where you see
the acceleration into thewoodside, the Conoco and the
shell, but then moving intomanagement, which is another way
of understanding how things gotogether and how people go
(05:07):
together.
Sonal (05:07):
Exactly.
We'll get to that part in asecond, but thank you for
explaining that.
It sounds like third time's acharm, right?
You said you tried architecture, you tried civil engineering.
You're like it's not for me.
I love this because I'm so tired, I'm so over people saying to
kids what do you want to be whenyou grow up?
You can test things, because ifyou don't, how do you know it's
going to be right for you?
(05:28):
And guess what?
You're doing this again in your40s, when you completely
pivoted your career.
So there's a very importantlesson here Sort of try before
you buy no pressure and give ittime, so obviously not like in a
day.
Hey, civil engineering, soboring, it's not for me.
You gave it some time, youspoke with people, but you also
(05:48):
got your hands dirty.
You got into architecture, youmade a few drawings and you're
like you know what this isn'tlighting me up, perfectly fine.
So glad that you did that.
Very important lesson there,Not just for children but
grownups alike.
And then you know you talkedabout Shell.
So you know, if you had to sortof look back in this period of
(06:12):
time, I have a two-parter herebecause you got into Shell,
which is a much you know, sortof bigger I'm guessing, more
complex organization.
Talk to us about this move.
Was it easy, Was it complicated?
Getting hired, getting noticed,Was it comparative?
What helped you to stand out?
(06:32):
That's part one and part two.
You know you talked aboutrising up the ranks in
management.
Also, talk to us about whathelped you to stand out to be
visible to be memorable.
Mike (06:45):
Yeah, I just want to come back to your point about the
kids.
I think we say to children asparents like what do you want to
be when you grow up?
Kids don't have a clue.
Like we actually ask them tothink about titles and jobs and
like their world's about thisbig compared to our world, but
their world's about that bigcompared to them.
And I think we don't ask thosesort of questions where what do
you actually like to do?
And I think as parents, we needto train up a child on where
(07:09):
they should go.
And if they like drawing, youcan sort of talk to what they
actually like why do you likedrawing, why do you like this
and then help guide them.
But if you ask the child whatdo you want to do, they don't
have a clue and they try andrelate it to what mum and dad do
or experiences or people aroundthem.
And that's what really helps.
And my appetite for unpackinghow things work together was
even when my dad was verysuccessful.
(07:31):
My time with him was working oncars, pulling, grab a spanner,
pull things apart and I couldrealize if I put that in there
and undo that, that comes offLike, wow, I'm learning, I'm
understanding and I thinknaturally, even as parents, we
look at the toys children playwith.
Now.
They all mimic what we do withour parents, whether it's a tool
set with dad or a baby with mom, they're modeling something
(07:55):
that we see.
So the children are like I wantto do what mom and dad are
doing.
So, as parents, we have such agreat responsibility as mentors
to help guide and shape peopleinto understanding what they
like and then showing them whatthe options are, as opposed to
you need to be a doctor, youneed to be an accountant you got
me, you got me.
Sonal (08:11):
This is.
This is answers made me soemotional.
You're so right about that, andyou have probably some of your
best memories working on thosecars and tinkering with those
toys, with your dad and and alsoI don't like to generalize, but
that generation, this was theway they showed love.
Right like I spend time qualitytimeize, but that generation,
this was the way they showedlove.
Right like I spend time,quality time together, but I
love this.
What do you like to do?
I love this question and I usedto be, I used to light up, and
(08:35):
now I follow the same example.
When I was a kid, I used tolight up.
Once in a blue moon, somebodywould ask me so what's your
favorite subject at school?
Ah, the world is my oyster.
I could say art and craft, Icould say history, I could say
math, and they'll be like oh,tell me more.
This is so much better.
What do you like to do asopposed to what do you want to
be?
(08:55):
Because it's like garbage in,garbage out.
Mike (08:57):
They don't know anything, yet they'll just say what was
your favorite subject historyhistory.
Yeah, yeah, there's always awhy, I liked maths.
I, um, I just I.
My maths was absolute it, it,it it was rounded, it, it, it
solved um.
So there was an answer.
Sonal (09:16):
It was the opposite of it, was the opposite of history,
was the opposite of maths.
I love that's.
So we.
I didn't.
I didn't plan to talk to youabout this, but this is
fascinating.
I loved math still about thefourth, fifth grade, and I think
the reason was the teacher.
I did well because the teacherwas like you got it and I was
like topping my class.
(09:36):
Something happened in the fifthgrade and my confidence went
for a toss and apparentlythere's a lot of research that
says when girls don't do well atmaths, they don't get the same
level of encouragement as boys.
Boys are like no, no, no, no,push through.
And girls are like well, I'mnot sure if that happened with
me, but sometimes littleencouragement is all it takes
versus blanket statements likehey, I'm not really good at
(09:59):
maths, oh, wow, you've lostbefore you even started, right,
uh, and history is the opposite.
So, oh, this is fascinating.
I I'm I'm so happy we'retalking.
We barely just scratched thesurface, mike, so one of the
biggest things.
Mike (10:15):
So it's like you've got to speak into what people are
becoming, not what they are.
Um, you've got to see potentialand sometimes you haven't got
people backing you.
That's what a parent's role is.
It's like I've got you, I'mbacking you.
It's a safe space to grow, andthat goes into work, goes into
management, goes intomentorships, goes into people
that walk with you, goes intothe story that I'm about to
share with you with where we'reat now.
Sonal (10:38):
Yeah, let's talk about that, let's ahead.
Mike (10:42):
So your question was look, everything has a season Sonal
and nothing's wasted.
I think we can sort of go well,that was stupid.
This was not, because we'realways learning.
There's all this multi-sensorylearning, that we're learning
how we apply things, and I neverthink something's wasted.
So you've got to be carefulthat you don't allow anyone to
(11:03):
give you or them the authorityto validate you, because your
worth isn't defined by them,it's defined by who you are and
who you're becoming, becausewhat is done is done.
But I've also found in everyseason I've had, even in growth,
I use that model of deliveryand delivering through others.
You get to a point where youlearn and even as parents we
(11:25):
pass down to the next generation.
But also there's a generationabove us that we draw from to
gain knowledge and understandingand wisdom and counsel.
But definitely with myexperience, with being on the
tools, being in the field, beingin operations, being on
projects, understandingcontracts, understanding people,
understanding people, services,supply chains my role at shell
(11:48):
was very much when I leftwoodside was actually sort of
like a demotion, but the jobthat was actually was the
opportunity and what shell couldoffer where I could actually do
that.
I want to get into this companybecause it's a great company.
They look after their people,they're growing, they're the
best of the bunch, you know,know.
So I looked in and what I hadand what I was available to and
(12:09):
I thought, wow, I can actuallygo and apply to this job and
then look for opportunitieswithin the company.
So by doing that, it took aboutfive and a half months to be
recruited at Shell and it waslike 450 applicants.
It was hard.
I went through psychevaluations, I went through
assessments, two sets ofinterviews, and it came down to
two people in the end of thatand it was really me just saying
(12:31):
to them hey look, I really wantyou to believe in me because I
can do what you want me to do.
I'm going to do the best jobfor you, and that's that part of
you being able to sell yourself.
You've got to.
We want that opportunity to getto the interview and say I want
to sell myself.
I've got the skills to pay thebills.
But I also want to sell myselfbecause I'm bringing something
that no one else has, which isme.
I'm a brand and no one else hasthat, so it's bringing my
(12:52):
uniqueness to the table.
But, as I went into to work withShell, I started to realize
that there were people withinthe organization that were doing
stuff that I had been able todemonstrate before in previous
roles.
And it was very hard with theactual line manager that I had,
because I could see that therewas opportunity for growth and I
was naturally saying I can dothat, I can do that, and he's
(13:13):
like Mike, I know you think youcan do that, but I haven't seen
you do that.
But what I was able to get outof it was having opportunities
to demonstrate, which is wherewe can sometimes say, instead of
saying I know how to do that,well, they're just words, you've
actually got to show peoplethere.
There's so much truth andactually seeing is believing.
So, being able to have theopportunity to demonstrate that
(13:34):
I was put in positions where Icould stretch myself and stretch
those roles.
And because, coming back tothat mechanical mind of wanting
to know how things go together,it's been a natural trait of
mine, even with people.
I bring people together.
It's my Italian heritage thebig families, the big people,
and I love people.
I think people are great and Ithink when you see the best in
people, you get the best out ofthem.
(13:55):
So, naturally, having atechnical mind and also a people
skill, which is relationships,I was presented with some
opportunities to go into GoJ,which is where Prelude, which is
the largest floating gasfacility in the world.
It's 500 meters long, it'senormous, it's a mammoth of a
project and I was able to pulltogether a workshop which is a
(14:18):
startup ramp-up plan with allthe key figures.
Now I didn't know how to bringthe place on to station or to
build that ramp-up plan, but Iknew that it was a jigsaw puzzle
and I needed a surveillanceengineer, you needed an
operations manager, you needed amechanical engineer, you needed
a workshop for the supply chain, you needed certain people to
start the conversation, and whatI was able to do was facilitate
(14:39):
a workshop where it's like whatdo you think needs to happen
this, what do you think needs tohappen this, what do you think
needs to happen this?
And we started building apicture and a sequence and what
that actually allowed me to dois to build a startup ramp up
plan or bringing Prelude onstation with the key figures
getting into that planningmindset, and that put me in good
stead with the way that I wasable to work with people and
work with the management.
(15:00):
That put me in a position whenI got back to Perth well, this
guy's good.
And then there was someopportunities to apply with that
and I used that opportunitythat I was able to demonstrate.
So, always looking foropportunities to demonstrate
what I'm capable of and what Ican do, because we know what we
can do, but we've got tosometimes step out of our
comfort zone.
That presented the opportunityfor me to become a maintenance
(15:20):
team leader, where we weresolely responsible for looking
after the maintenance for amulti-billion dollar project and
getting this place up andrunning.
Sonal (15:29):
Very, very important that position.
I've worked in a couple offactory environments and the
safety trainings alone are likeI mean, this is so important,
the role you're talking about.
But love this and I want torecap this for the listener
because you shared a lot of gemshere.
I've got the skills that paythe bills.
What else can I demonstrate,right?
Um, as a baseline, a lot of usdo have the skills that pay the
(15:53):
bills, but I love that you saiddemonstrate like three times.
Yeah, and it's the spanish I'mremembering.
So you said italian.
You gotta show it like examples,like show, not just say you can
do something talk is cheap andand putting your money where
your mouth is right, puttingaction where where, what with
(16:14):
everything you're talking aboutthat people remember.
People remember results, right?
So, um, very important to betalking about how this helped
you to stand out.
I want to stay here just for aminute, mike, because I have a
follow-up question.
I have this with my own clients, my career coaching clients,
but also in general.
(16:35):
You know, you said I took italmost.
It was pretty much a demotion,which means that it wasn't a
lateral move, it wasn't upwards,it was actually a step lower.
And almost always, and almostalways, almost always what I
have seen is, when you gosomewhere where you take a step
down, it ends up being like Idon't know if you remember Paula
Abdul one step back, two stepsforward.
(16:55):
Yeah, uh, that song, what wasit?
opposites attract yeah, I'mdating it was one step forward,
two steps back the other wayaround, the other way around,
but you, but you got it.
You got it right.
Mike (17:05):
I got, yeah, I got yeah.
Sonal (17:06):
It's like that angry birds um catapult.
You know you go back and thenyou go so far ahead.
But that aspect of going backis very difficult for our
fragile little ego.
And what are people going tothink?
I'm earning less.
It's less title La la, da, da,da la.
Did you have any of that stuffwhen you were contemplating
(17:29):
coming to shell?
Mike (17:30):
absolutely, it's um.
Sonal (17:31):
But because you're human right.
Mike (17:33):
Hello, I think naturally we, we look at life as I've got
to get a, I've got to get a job,a better job.
I've got to get a car a abetter car.
It's a performance orientation,it is a comparative spirit.
It is naturally where wecompare ourselves to others.
Sometimes our title in a job iswhat validates us.
(17:54):
Naturally, what do we alwayssay to people?
We don't even listen to thewords coming out of our mouths.
We say to people what do you do?
It's not who you are.
No one says tell me aboutyourself.
It's very much a qualifyingquestion when someone says what
do you do?
And this was the position I wasin even at Shell.
It was like I know it.
For Shell I'm now themaintenance team leader of
(18:15):
Prelude.
I fly away offshore, I travelthe world.
There is some authority withthat.
Sonal (18:22):
It's designed for pleasing our ego.
Mike (18:24):
Yes, totally, and.
But it is.
You start to look at things andwe'll get to the shift of where
, where things have changed.
But you've got to come backsometimes and say, why do I do
what I do?
Because if you're chasing thenext title, the next position,
even in my one of my past roleswhich I had, which was pre
Woodsideside, there was thisposition where I gave people the
(18:45):
authority to validate me.
It was 12 years of my life, butthe title and the
responsibility, the job wastaken away from me in a
heartbeat.
And I'm like I've worked 12years to to earn my right and my
position in the company.
I was loyal and within a splitsecond it could get taken away
from you.
And it was like all of thattime and effort and and being so
(19:08):
vulnerable and so easilyfractured in that, in that
season where, for whateverhappened, there was like wow, um
, I shouldn't give people theauthority to validate me,
because if you do do that,you'll continue to come to work,
to get a pat on the back andone day it'll stop and then you
won't know who you are.
So it's's very important.
Even in my life, I've learned toreflect, I've learned to take
(19:30):
stock, I've learned to see howthings work, understand the self
and create space to think andstrategize.
Because even in that seasonlater on in life, I went through
a stress cycle where I thoughtI had it all together.
I thought I could do it all,and my mind was saying I could
do it.
My body was saying no and, um,I actually had a bit of a
(19:56):
breakdown.
But, um, me, being so arrogantand prideful in that it just
pressing through, started torealize that I've got to keep
going forward.
I've got to keep moving forward, but then there's got to be a
time where you've got to taketime to reflect, you've got to
take time to stop, you've got totake time to rest so that your
body can bring everything back,because you're not, you're a
machine.
And then, moving into thoselater years, it really affects
(20:17):
who you are as a person, butvery quickly, if you're the kind
of person that's going aroundthis is who I am by what I am
one day that'll stop.
And you're the kind of personthat's going around this is who
I am by what I am one daythat'll stop and you're left to
go and smell the roses.
And if you don't know what theysmell like you're not going to
enjoy them and you're going tobe sitting there going who am I?
Because that's what it's allabout.
It's about who am I.
(20:38):
It's great to have a great job,it's great to have a great
title, it's great to have aseason of life that was
enjoyable and is a reward foryour labour.
But money is just a resource.
It is not an identity, and whenyou find comfort in that and
security in that, it can reallymess with you because it becomes
that pursuit and it's neverenough and becomes a comparative
spirit and it's not healthy.
(21:01):
So becoming a dad Sonal is areally moving part of my career
and just going, what's lifereally about?
What's important, where is myvalue, where are my priorities?
Because naturally, we say thisand we do that.
We've got to be aware of thatand we've got to listen to that,
because if you don't, you startto see part of self manifesting
(21:23):
.
And why am I bitter, why am Iupset, why does that bother me?
And if you don't, you start tosee part of self-manifesting,
and why am I bitter, why am Iupset, why does that bother me?
And if you don't look in themirror and actually try to
unpack and have people you canwalk with and talk with and and
that know you, you you you'llnever understand why.
And then you're just not theperson that you'd hoped you'd
wanted to be, and it's, it's notabout the title oh no, it's
about what?
makes you tick yes.
Sonal (21:44):
So talk to us about that , because you, you are, you have
had time to deal with it.
You've had time to sort ofdivorce yourself from the ego
stuff and and explain it verywell today, but back in the day,
when you were looking at thecontract at shell, I'm sure it
wasn't easy, right?
So what do you want to say tothe person today who is thinking
(22:06):
about making a change andtemporarily it does look like a
step back, and they are, youknow, for all their reasons,
they are hesitating.
Mike (22:17):
You've got to understand your end game.
What's life about?
What's important to me, whatgets me out of bed, what
motivates me, what's my passions, what's my skill set?
There's things that we do a lot.
I'm a people person so Iunderstand that my skills are
transferable.
It doesn't have to be in oiland gas.
It doesn't have to be justabout the mechanics, the
maintenance.
There's an understanding of howthings go together.
(22:39):
But if there's an opportunitywhere you can skill up and
you're at a job that's doingnine to five and you're like I'm
bored and you're tapping out ina career path, that's like
there's no progression, there'sno opportunity, there's no
stretch.
Sometimes a change is good tofind that.
But don't just look at thecookie cutter Now I've done it
(23:02):
three or four times andobviously the shift in where
we're going to go to in the newventure that we're working on
and what we're doing as wherewe've gone into.
But don't be afraid to.
Don't continue to do what youkeep doing.
We do what we know how to doinstead of what you need to be
doing.
You've got to listen to yourvoice.
Go and speak to people likeyourself, stonehall, and say I
need some advice.
This is what I'm good at, howdo I do this?
How do I do it better?
(23:23):
You need that sounding boardbecause you only know what you
know and when you, like I said,with a parent, someone that's a
mentor can come in and say doyou know what?
I reckon you, something youdon't see would be really good
at this.
Have you thought of that?
No, because we are so narrowminded, we're so negative.
(23:43):
We've got our own narrative andit's like the world's against
me.
It's never going to get better.
But it's not going to getbetter if you don't do something
about it.
So you've got to act on that.
You've got to.
If you're irritated, try andunderstand it.
What's the next step?
I've got to go and speak tosomeone.
I've got to go and talk tosomeone.
But if you get up, you go towork.
You don't like work.
You go home, you go to bed.
(24:03):
You get up, you go to work.
You don't like work.
You go to bed.
Guess what?
After a couple of days andweeks, you don't like work.
Sonal (24:12):
You build a habit, you build a behavior where it's like
I don't like to go to work, youdon't like work, you don't like
yourself.
That's very true.
And because we were talkingabout childhood and kids, I just
remembered something sorandomly when, when I was a kid,
I remember there was a show ontv and it was somebody taught it
was a disciple.
It was I'm getting intoreligion for a second.
I'm not overtly religious, butit was a disciple of one of the
(24:33):
hundreds of gods we have inIndia.
And the guy asked the god, whatis the most surprising thing to
you in the world today?
And he said the most surprisingthing in you in the world today
.
And he said the most surprisingthing in the world is that
human beings think they havetime and they think that death
(24:54):
eludes them.
Right, the point is, if you'reunhappy at work, do something,
because we don't know whattomorrow brings, and the last
thing we want to do is take timefor granted.
It's not a way to live,especially when we spend so much
time at work.
Mike (25:10):
So now, and it's measured by effort, and we do say this to
people a lot I'm busy.
Just how are you, i'm'm busy?
It's an identity, it's, it'sartificial significance.
But badge of honor what we'recraving is connection.
But when I say I'm busy, I'mactually saying go away now.
We don't actually understandwhat we're saying, but we say it
(25:33):
because there's power in thetongue and there's there's
definite life in the power ofthe tongue.
And and time is that one thing,that, wherever it goes, whether
it's with you right now, I'mgiving you my time, I'm having
your time.
You feel valued, I feel valued.
It's a unit of effort.
Now we naturally write emailsyeah, I'll catch up with you,
I'll talk to you, but when wedon't actually give people our
time, this is the biggest thingI've had with my children.
(25:55):
My mom said this to me love isspelled T-I-M-E.
Wherever your time goes iswhere your love goes.
And this was also another shiftfor me.
With all the work, the latehours, the working for the man,
the working for the business,the working for the product.
It's like what is actuallyimportant to me.
And you've got to have thatposition where, on my hand,
(26:18):
these are the things that areimportant to me and if you don't
prioritize them, they areprioritized by your time.
So, um, if you're not lookingafter yourself, you're not
looking after your mind, you'renot looking after your family,
you're not looking after yourjob.
Um, those are the things thathave value and that's where your
time needs to go, becausethat's where you get the return
on investment.
And a lot of my time now needsto go into my kids, so that I'm
(26:40):
just present, I'm available, I'mat their sports games, I'm at
their school excursion.
I went to the zoo yesterdaywith my youngest son, matthew,
and he was like my dad's comingTo him.
That's his world.
My dad came to the zoo.
Sonal (26:56):
I love that.
Your mom said love is spelledD-I-M-E.
That's a keeper, that's akeeper.
I love that so amazing.
So, mike, you alluded to this,so you wrote somewhere that
after 20 years I got tired ofchasing titles for the sake of a
nice salary and an inflated ego.
So talk to us about what wasgoing on just before this latest
(27:21):
venture.
What was going on and what wasthe impetus to say to the man
I'm putting this in air quotesScrew this, I'm done.
Mike (27:31):
Yeah, look COVID.
I think COVID was a blessing.
It was the great reset.
I think, naturally, miseryloves company.
There was this is wrong, that'swrong.
It's that narrative.
But everything slowed down.
There was a reset of.
That was normal.
This is now the new normal.
(27:52):
Why do I do what I do?
We're busy, busy, busy.
Now we slow down.
Sonal (27:57):
And Australia especially because it was always in the
news.
Right, new, normal.
Why do I do what I do?
We're busy, busy, busy.
Now we slow down australia,especially because it was always
in the news.
Right, it was really insulatedfor a good part of two, three
years, yeah, even more yeah,look it's, but still, the
world's a big place.
Mike (28:08):
There's narratives, there's there's talk, there's
there's mindsets and and um,it's depending on where your
lens is is how you feed that.
But with covid it just youcouldn't do what you normally
did.
You couldn't do what was normal.
Why do I do what this is it?
Why do I do what I do now?
I found with the, the, the termthat I had with Woodside or
(28:31):
Shell I started as a, as a, as aturnaround plan.
I went to turn in engineeringand then I went into the
maintenance team lead role,which was around a four-year
term, where I was going to usethat four years as a launch pad
to go and start exploring therest of the world as an expat.
I got three passports.
There was an opportunity thereto travel, but again, it was the
(28:52):
next title, it was the nextresponsibility, it was the next
paycheck, it was just why do wedo what we do?
It was the next title, it wasthe next responsibility, it was
the next paycheck, it was justwhy do we do what we do?
And I suppose my dad said look,what's the end game, son?
Why do you do what you do?
And I understand my dad and hissuccess.
He could speak with thatauthority and go, son, just do
what's important.
He's had a lot of time to slowdown.
He's got three degrees and he'sbeen able to give me a picture
(29:18):
of like why he did what he didand what he had.
But now he's reflecting on thatand there's that knowledge
that's coming down from him andI just I just thought it was the
next job, it was the nextproject, it was the next swing,
it was the next upgrade, it wasthe new car, it was a bigger car
, it was getting a caravan andI'm just like it's just stuff
and it's just you're working forthat.
And I suppose I got to a pointwhere I felt like I'm now at the
(29:39):
top of the food chain.
I'm working for the biggest oiland gas company in the world in
one of the best roles that youcould ever dream of in the world
, one of the best companies inthe world.
I'm the biggest facility in theworld.
What's next?
Like I'm tapping out.
It's like an Olymp.
I think you're trying to chasethe next high and these are term
in the industry.
It's called golden handcuffs.
(30:00):
It's just like why do I do whatI do?
And I suppose the season I wasin it was like I'm offshore, I'm
working, I'm traveling, I'maway from what's important to me
and being away from that, I washaving a walk down the they
call it the green mile.
It from that.
I was having a walk down thethey call it the green mile.
It's where all the modules areand it's this corridor for the
(30:23):
process and you do a lot ofthinking time.
You go and do your walks, yougo see, you meet the team, you
engage with the team and I wasjust like, oh, is this it?
And I just felt this are yousatisfied?
And I'm like it's all right.
And naturally this narrativecomes in when I tell people what
I do I'm satisfied, I work forshell, I work offshore, and it
comes back to that.
(30:43):
Why are you giving people theauthority to validate you?
And you consistently start tochase this and I've got to go to
another meeting, make anothermeeting, present another meeting
.
I'm just like what does it looklike outside of shell?
What does it look like after ofShell?
What does it look like afterShell?
What does the next role inShell look like?
And I suppose that is sometimesa road less traveled for people,
but you've got to becomfortable with where you're at
(31:06):
going.
Okay, I'm comfortable, I wasvery comfortable, like the money
was great at Shell, thebenefits were great, being
financially free is a greatplace to also be.
But then you just go.
There must be more, you knowthere must be more.
So being in a position ofcomfort and being satisfied and
still working hard, puttingexcellence to your role and
(31:27):
doing things well, you've got tobe able to sort of entertain.
What does that look like?
So, leaning into that, I walkedthrough this thought pattern for
about six months, just goingwhat does it look like?
What does it be?
Am I satisfied?
Am I not?
Because you go to work, you dowhat you know how to do and you
do it well.
And then there's other thingsand I just sort of lent in that,
(31:48):
spoke to my wife, talked itthrough and she was like what
You're thinking about changing?
And the world has a funny wayof working things out, like with
with COVID, and then thecompany went for a reshape and
with the reshape it basicallyput everyone's role in jeopardy,
where you could either applyfor your role again or you could
look at other roles.
And it just got me thinking fora few things with.
(32:12):
I chose to do four years as alaunch pad.
I didn't want to stay offshore.
It wasn't my.
If I stay here, this is it.
I just constantly go offshore.
Come home, I don't like thedisconnect, the reconnect, the
rollercoaster of being home,being away.
It's not healthy, it's not good, but it works for some.
But there was a season that I'dcommitted to, which was four
years, and then there wasopportunities to look at some
(32:33):
expat roles and otheropportunities around Shell and
I'm just like I don't know.
I think I'm done.
And that's where the interceptcame with being in a position
where Paul, who was my very goodfriend, who's the founder of
User, who I'm working for now wewere talking and I've always
(32:54):
had a genuine interest in whathe's doing he goes why don't you
come work for me?
And I went what?
And it was just I would havebeen continuing to do what I was
doing.
I probably would have foundanother role in another part of
the business or another company,another go back into
maintenance coordination orsomething.
I know how to do, but I'm likeit doesn't.
There's no passion there.
(33:15):
There's no drive there.
I know how to do, but I'm likeit doesn't.
There's no passion there,there's no drive there.
I know how to do it.
I was like, oh, you want me tocome work for you?
And that's where we transitionedinto this next season of my
life with YouthVerve, which isthe exciting part, where I was
okay with entertaining theseoptions.
And I think the biggest thingthat Paul ever said to me.
He said, michael, it's not whatI need, it's who you are.
(33:36):
And that was the part thatreally kicked me, because it's
like it's who you are is what Ineed in my company.
And I think that really made mestart to realize it's not about
saying I worked for Shell, Iworked for Woodside, I worked
for Conoco, I worked for allthese companies that define me,
because naturally that doesdefine you.
But then when someone seessomething beyond the paper,
(33:56):
beyond the skill set, and says Iactually need who you are,
because it's only myself who canbring that, and that's where,
yes, the skills will pay thebills, but everyone has a brand
and everyone's got to carry that, and that's what takes you into
next season.
Sonal (34:10):
Wow, what a what a what a story.
I'm sure it wasn't easy goingthrough this.
It wasn't easy for your wifebecause the comfort, like you
said, the stability of full-timework and a comfortable paycheck
that disrupts the status quo.
So I'm glad you said that itwasn't like a eureka moment.
It was something you thoughtabout for six months.
(34:30):
You spoke to your dad, youspoke to your wife all the
people that matter and this iswhat you did.
So I like two specific things.
You said why are you givingthem the authority to validate
you?
That is so important.
I've just returned.
Right now we're recording thisat a time where I've just
(34:51):
returned from a 15-year MBAreunion and you know that stuff
the outwardly stuff if you'reviewed as successful, it could
change in a couple of years.
So it doesn't matter.
What matters is how you thinkabout yourself, right, and not
give anyone the authority tovalidate you or not validate you
(35:12):
just as important, right?
What people call the impostersyndrome.
And the second sounds like amatch made in heaven.
It's not what I need.
It's it's not what I need, it'swho you are today.
So you were like oh, you musthave been swooning.
You're like sign me up and youknow the at the same time, I was
thinking out loud, you know,when, um, we're given a lot of
(35:35):
advice, sometimes unsolicitedadvice, from friends, from
parents, especially from family,and one of the most common
things I hear is never get intobusiness with friends, never
lend friends money and all ofthat stuff.
Don't mix money and friendship.
Don't mix business.
You're obviously the exceptionto that, but were you, did you
(35:56):
hesitate a bit, no matter howwell you know each other?
Did you hesitate a bit becausethere is a little bit of a risk?
Mike (36:03):
no, I think they say that because it's it's emotion
involved and it's raw, but I Ithink the best relationship you
can have is with someone youknow um it.
But there's a point I think wedon't naturally like to work
through conflicts.
I'm very much a I mean, myfamily has come from a phase of
the Italians.
You've got a problem, you sayit, you speak it, I'm sorry.
(36:24):
We're open, we're honest, butwe're also very secure people.
We know who we are and I thinkeven with Paul, who's the CEO of
Useverb, he's always someonethat has believed in me and
that's great to hear about whatyou're doing.
It was never about what are youdoing now.
What are you doing now?
What's the role, what's theposition?
(36:45):
There's always been thisnatural inclination of how
you've been.
So I think the fact that I'vejourneyed with Paul and I
understood Paul and I knew Paul,I don't think we actually know
our personal value sometimes andI think in a world we live in
today, sona, we're not speakinginto people anymore and our
motto on our shirt, that's it,it's speak life, you know, and
(37:07):
we look at what we can take frompeople and that's, whether it's
a position or a title or amaking me feel better than you,
and I think the best thing youcan do sometimes is speak into
someone else and see the valuein them, because people need to
hear that.
And if there's things you likeabout people, go and tell them
and say do you know what?
I love your smile, I love theway that you interact, because
(37:29):
that's the way the world works,that's the way we work together,
that's the way that you bring aroom together.
That was the same skill set,which was a soft skill, which
was why I was put in thatposition at Shell to bring that
team together for the startupramp-up plan, because it was
like hey, I know there'ssomething in you that they
haven't seen yet.
What do you think?
What do you think?
And bringing the room together.
(37:49):
One of the other things I didat Shell was I was the president
of the social club and that wasjust bringing the fabric
together of people and helpingpeople understand, because at
the end of the day, look,there's always a job to be done,
but if you can do it withpeople you enjoy working with, I
guarantee you get so muchbetter out of people.
So, with Paul, he was very mucha good friend of mine that
(38:12):
we're journeying with and evenpre-use.
Paul had a very successfulrobotics company.
Just, he's like an elon musk ofperth.
He's got top 40 under 40 ernestyoung awards, engineer of the
year twice.
He had a robotics company uh,very impressive.
He's got two degrees, uh,mechatronics, marketing, um, and
he was doing the cool stuff.
He wasn't the, the cookie cutter.
(38:33):
I've now got my title, I've nowgot my job.
He's just, he's like a moverand shaker.
He's an entrepreneur.
He'll never have a boss, he'shis own boss.
He's like no, I'm the man and Ialways respected that, because
there's a quiet confidence andan arrogance that goes with that
.
It's like, yes, I know who I amand I know what I am, and that's
why I've always surrounded mypeople with strong men and
(38:54):
strong women that can, that wantto do things, that do want to
do greatness, do want to do bigthings, and I think we're all
built for greatness.
So I just don't think we tapinto that sometimes and we come
back to that, that dream.
I wanted to be an astronaut.
What happened?
You know what, what?
What stopped you?
And I think the world doesbring you down and it does
discourage you and it does levelyou out, but you've got to say
(39:17):
no, I'm better than that.
So, yeah, if you're not hearingthat, you're not saying that,
you've got to surround yourselfwith the right people that can
speak into that and pull you outof that and lift you up and say
this is what I see.
Wow, I forgot, that's who I am.
And I think Paul did that forme in that moment, which was
very well timed, and the season.
Sonal (39:35):
I was in Perfect timing and he's like Mike.
Mike (39:37):
I need magic Mike.
I need you to bring the life tothe business.
Sonal (39:41):
A different kind of magic Mike and wow, and it
happened.
This is amazing.
So, yeah, good for you, perfecttiming.
I think the owning yourgreatness unapologetically is is
what's.
It's what's needed.
Don't have to be arrogant to doit.
(40:02):
I love that quiet confidence.
I love how Adam Grant talksabout it.
So this is beautiful.
Talk to us about UseVerb.
So the listener, you're likehey, useverb, u-s-e-v-e-r-b.
Talk to us about this company.
Where did this idea come from?
What was the tech stack lookinglike?
This is a completely differentworld for you.
(40:23):
How did you learn all of thisstuff?
Talk to us about is it funded,is it venture backed or is it,
you know, going sort of adifferent sort of Canva route,
looking for investors locally,like where is the company today
and what do you do?
And I think when you explainthis, this is going to be
helpful to the listener, becauseyou're going to know, dear
(40:45):
listener, you're going to knowwhy I'm talking to mike about
this, because this is rightright up my right up my alley.
Mike (40:50):
Go for it, mike well, strap yourself in you for a ride
here.
So, um, look, paul pre-gfc wasa very successful in his
robotics industry.
Uh, he was doing cutting edgestuff, um, and he was growing at
an accelerated rate.
He had contracts with themining industry and he was
moving into that phase where thecompany was about to grow
(41:12):
parabolically and really kickoff and he wanted to build a
bigger team and a better team.
And because he was winning allthese awards and he was
innovative, he was disruptive.
It was robotics man, it waswinning all these awards.
Then he was innovative, he wasdisruptive, it was it's robotics
man, it's cool, you know, it'scool stuff.
And he had all these peopleturn up for an interview, which
was like, I mean, maybe like wasit five or 600 people turning
(41:35):
up for an interview?
And he's like whoa, I cannotinterview all these people.
And it comes back to that timething.
Sonal (41:41):
I turned up like on site .
Mike (41:43):
They were like oh yeah, yeah, he had over the week, 500
people coming for this interview.
Because he was like, if you'reinterested, come meet me.
And he's like, well, this istoo many people.
And it's like he just theproblem.
He was like I don't have timeto meet all these people, but I
would love to meet all thesepeople.
So the thing that he toeveryone that turned up and
called themselves an engineer bywhat they were they had a pair
(42:07):
of RM Williams boots, they had apair of Chinos pants and a
checkered shirt and a nice fancypen.
I'm an engineer, but he's likewhere's the innovators?
Where's the creators?
Where's the bright sparks?
Where's the people that thinkoutside the box?
Not the people that just dowhat's required?
That's the 70% of this world.
But there's also this capacityof people that like to move past
that and he says I couldn't seethat on paper.
(42:29):
He said I read the resume.
This is what you do, this isyour skillset, this is your
experience.
And he goes.
If I just had a short littlevideo of who they were, I would
know within a split second ofwho I want to actually meet and
see in the interview.
So same thing we do on a firstdate.
It's literally that 27 secondpitch where we're like hey, nice
(42:49):
to meet you.
I like what I see.
It's not visually, it's just.
I like what I'm feeling about.
My gut's telling me something Iwant to know more.
I've got a good feeling aboutthis.
Sonal (42:59):
I like what I feel.
I like what I feel right Like.
See here all of that.
Mike (43:04):
So that's where the idea was born.
Sonal (43:06):
That's where the idea was born by over, like people
applying because he said comeand see me, and then later he
was like no, no, don't come andsee me, like I can't, I can't.
Mike (43:15):
Paul's a real positive guy and he wants to meet people and
he will give anyone the time ofday.
He's a great resource and he'sa real mover and shaker in the
industry.
But it's literally.
There's something we donaturally Sonal, which is
natural, which is people we'rerelatable there's physically,
sexually, emotionally, mentally,biologically everything goes
together.
(43:36):
And we've, in this day and age,we've tried to fabricate that.
Facebook's about buildingrelationships, instagram's about
creating moments, pinterest isabout ideas, twitter is about
opinions.
I mean, come on, we're notdoing what we should be doing.
And what do we do?
Sonal (43:49):
We say we're busy and we push everyone away, the social
part, the social part of socialmedia.
We've got to find that way toreconnect.
Mike (43:56):
We've got to rehumanize recruitment and it's not fair.
Again, I'm talking to this whatand who narrative, measuring
someone based on what they are.
We're taking names off resumes.
Now we're taking pictures.
We're taking people out of theequation.
We're starting to use chat, gpt.
Now Everyone's starting to lookthe same.
What makes us different?
It's you.
You're unique, you're a brandowner.
(44:17):
That's what you're selling.
If everyone's the same, thepoint of difference is you.
What are you bringing to thetable?
So Paul took this idea on theback of his robotics company.
He went to New York, sanFrancisco, silicon Valley, built
a proof of concept, tested itwith Under Armour, tested it
with American Express, tested itwith Johnson Johnson's, had a
(44:38):
pre-sale of the Super Bowl andwent whoa, this is getting big,
this is cool.
Wanted to bring it back toAustralia and make it an
Australian-owned company.
There's a real something aboutbeing a proud Australian.
And he built his dev team.
He got his brother involvedwho's Grant, who's the CIO of
the company and started buildingthe people that believed in his
vision.
(44:58):
Well, our vision is here toconnect and coordinate the
world's workforce.
We want to become the world'sbiggest employer with no
employees.
And that started thedevelopment of getting a product
that works, to a product thatwe can scale, and the whole idea
now is for the last six yearsof development.
This has all been bootstrappedby Paul in terms of where he's
moving forward, which is great,because we haven't got people
(45:20):
coming into the company sayingyou must do this.
Sonal (45:24):
Looking over your shoulder.
Wow, it destroys Six years, sixyears.
It started in 2018.
And I'm sure you had memoriesof your own.
Mike (45:35):
Seven years now.
Sonal (45:36):
Seven years and I'm sure you had memories of your own
five and a half months gettingyou know, getting that job at
Shell.
Five and a half months, gettingyou know, getting that job at
shell five and a half months istwo-third of a human pregnancy.
Yeah, yeah, you know.
And and for you said 450applications.
So now it's, now it's, so it'slive.
Use verb is live, it's ready.
(45:56):
Like how do we get access?
Is it b2b?
Mike (45:59):
talk to us about that yeah , it looks b2b2B, b2c, literally
.
Just to come back to where wedeveloped we developed a lot of
this in stealth.
We built our authority.
Everything you see on Instagram, facebook, tiktok, medium,
twitter, all those platformsit's all organic.
It's real, genuine, organicgrowth which was positioning us
in the market, to positionourselves globally now and we've
(46:22):
only just gone to market earlythis year and we had a proof of
concepts go to market it waslate last year signed up 200
companies.
We know it sells.
That was the one-to-one thatwas testing the product in the
market.
Now we're starting to move.
We're Paul's in Houston.
He's been there for two yearsto get this around the world.
We've just set up our salesteam in South America.
We've got our marketing team insouth africa, our dev teams in
(46:45):
estonia.
Sonal (46:46):
We've got paul and houston.
We've got affiliates around theworld.
A quick question are you guyshiring?
We're always hiring hey, dearlistener, check out the website,
use verb.
So wow, it sounds like you knowthat sort of startup scale up
phase with so much going on, soI'm guessing it's B2B to C as
well right.
Mike (47:06):
So we're very much a company facing product, which is
allowing job seekers to applyin a better way, because what's
happening in the market at themoment Sonal is people continue
to do what they know how to doinstead of what they need to be
doing.
I will continue to write aresume.
Every job you go to you canhave a fancy website, you
Continue to write a resume Everyjob you go to.
You can have a fancy websiteYou've got to put a cover letter
.
Sonal (47:25):
No one reads them, no I know no one reads them.
I've been saying this for yearsthat I get torn down Like, oh
my God, it's a way todistinguish yourself.
I'm like, really I never read acover letter in my life.
Maybe it is, but no one'sreading them.
Mike (47:36):
The person that wrote theirs with their hand on their
heart and the person that wroteit on ChatGPT they both look the
same.
Sonal (47:44):
They both look the same.
A lot of them are ChatGPT.
Why would I waste my timereading that anyway?
Mike (47:50):
And what's happening in the market now.
Sonos is making it even worsefor recruiters With the Quick
Apply feature as well, with allthese platforms.
When you've loaded in theseapplications, it actually scans
your application and it says toyou as a job seeker these are
all the jobs you can do.
So what do I do?
You get reduced to the doubletap.
I applied on all these jobs 50jobs.
Now, as a hiring manager, I'vegot 50 applications on top of 50
(48:13):
people, 250 applications comingin for people that had the
quick apply.
When I start calling them upsaying hey, so no, I'm just
ringing up about the job youapplied to, you're like, hey,
which job?
Sorry, how much are you paying?
Not interested.
So it's not helping anyone.
And this is where the marketMexican standoff has happened.
Job seekers are getting sick ofwriting resumes and cover
(48:35):
letters because nobody readsthem and companies are trying to
find great people.
So there's something that needsto happen, there's something in
the shift and companies aretrying to find great people.
Sonal (48:44):
So there's something that needs to happen.
There's something in the shift.
I'm imagining Nacho Libre, jackBlack oh my gosh and that's
what you guys are doing.
So I love that.
And, mike, you know thisquestion I'm going to ask you.
You know this is coming.
There's always the what if,what about?
So talk to us about how youanswer this with people who
criticize and say this looksgreat.
Talk to us about how you answerthis with people who criticize
(49:06):
and say this looks great.
But it's very beneficial topeople who are naturally
confident in front of the camera.
Right, you're talking aboutyourself.
It's a video cover letter.
Maybe I don't feel confidentbeing in front of the camera.
Am I going to be discriminatedagainst?
Already there's ageism, sexism,racism, colorism all the
(49:30):
reasons.
Mike (49:30):
What would you say to that ?
Sonal (49:31):
Tokenism.
Look, you've still got to go tothe interview.
Mike (49:32):
Right, yes, you've still got to meet someone and say, hey
, well, I'm good for the job.
Now, if you want to get a footin the door, where's the old
fashioned way of just walking upto the owner and saying, hey,
I'm a hard worker, I do a goodjob, I'll turn up on time?
Just the basics.
You can do that in a video.
Now what we're also findingcoming back to your point with
the separation of introverts,extroverts one thing we're
(49:54):
finding is, firstly, it's givingextroverts who aren't good on
paper sometime.
Now, I'm a very much anextrovert but I'm also good on
paper.
But I love the ability.
I can just get to the interview, I can sell it, I can show you
what I can bring.
I can bring the people elementand as you move up in promotion,
it's not about what you can do,it's who you are, because you
need to work through people.
Now also for the introverts ifyou're not confident in an
(50:17):
interview, guess what You'regoing to walk into that
interview.
First impression you have a wetfish handshake and say, hi, I
really want this job.
That's your first impression.
Now, if you can do a shortlittle video and you can
practice it, it's short form 27seconds.
It's like TikTok for jobs,where you can actually record it
, you can delete it, you can goforward, you can go back and
(50:37):
when you're happy with it howgood would that be You're the
one making the first impression.
As much as the market haschanged and it's about trying to
find people.
If you really want that job andyou want to stand out, why
don't you do something thatmakes you stand out?
Put a face to the name, allowthem to meet you before they
meet you in person and this iswhere the platform comes to life
is, instead of people hittingthat quick, apply, the people
(50:59):
that do the video want the job.
Because it's not easy.
I've got to put who I am in avideo and say, hey, I really
want this job.
We're even finding it workingin the disability sector.
We had a case with one of thesebig employment service
providers where they actuallyhad sent in their resume and I
speak from experience with myown sister.
(51:19):
She's mildly autistic.
The question we're always askingas employers we want to help,
we want to work with disability,but we're actually asking not
me to be rude, but how disabledare you?
How much do I need to carry?
How much do I need to manageand you can't see that on paper.
That's why the employmentservices come in to say I want
you to see the person Literally,I want you to see the person
(51:41):
for who they are.
Now, if they can do that on thevideo which they did with our
platform, what they said no toon paper they said yes to in the
video they went absolutely nowall we're offering is more
points of data personality first, resume second to give you a
more well-rounded hiringapproach and allow you to hire
with confidence.
Now understood if you can meetpeople before you meet them,
(52:01):
have a a short little video andgo.
I liked that.
I want to know more.
Guess who's come to theinterview the best of the bunch,
not the best of the bad hiresthat, when they walk in the door
, the cost of your business, thecost of setting up the
interview, the cost of actuallytraining that person that
doesn't want to be in the jobafter six months because you've
shortlisted someone else, basedon an ATS system that looks at
keyword searches.
That sets up an interview witha hiring manager that says where
(52:23):
did you get these people from?
It's about people, right?
So let's get real and stopdodging the bullet.
We've got to rehumanizerecruitment.
We've got to put people back inthe application and see the
value in people.
Bring the connection back andshow people that have value.
Give them an opportunity to sayI really want this job.
Can I show you, as opposed tosomeone that knows how to write
(52:45):
a script in AI that cheats thesystem.
Sonal (52:48):
And the cheating, the system and the AI and automation
is.
I think we're at an extremesort of end of the spectrum
right now and you're bringing itback to the middle, which is
the human centric approach torecruiting, like it was in the
80s and 90s.
The human centric approach torecruiting like it was in the
80s and 90s, but without the ick, without the walk-in 400 people
like we used to see in themovies back then, because this
(53:10):
is a way to meet them before youmeet them.
I like that.
I like that and I also thinkthat, yes, first introduction,
it's the first introduction andyes, it is hard.
You're absolutely right, noneof us likes to, particularly.
You know, covid forced a lot ofpeople to sort of look at
themselves on zoom and therewere a lot of like body, like
you know, I don't like how Ilook and and there was a lot of
(53:31):
research on how, um, people werelike getting under the knife
for cosmetic surgery because mynose is too long.
I never had to see it till Ihad to look at myself every day,
five days a week during zoommeet.
So it's not easy, right?
But at the same time, if you'resecure in yourself, secure ish
in yourself, good enough.
Um, there is less competitioncompared to the quick apply,
(53:56):
because everyone's going to theeasy apply, the quick applied.
One button and your, yourresume has gone to 50 jobs.
Uh, and someone calls you.
It's literally like I order,like if I order 10 things on
amazon and, and and people arelike, hey, you, you asked, I'm
like, oh, there's a, there's abox outside, oh, I wonder which
one.
It is forgotten about it yeah,but with this, you're not going
(54:17):
to be doing mass sort ofapplications right.
You'll have a more targetedapproach, so it's really a
win-win in that sense the bestthing is we had a.
Mike (54:25):
We had a, a dispenser optometrist.
I don't know if you heard ofspec savers.
Sonal (54:30):
They're a big yeah, they're a big brand.
Mike (54:32):
Uh, we just signed them up and um congratulations one of
the owners of spec savers justsays I want people that
represent my store.
I want people that understandmy customers.
Now he had looked at a coupleof applications for paper and
he's like, when the person camein, they were like they weren't
well presented, they weren'tsmiling, they weren't clean cut,
(54:53):
they didn't tuck their shirt in, they didn't speak well, and
it's like look, let's get realhere.
You can't write that on paper.
You need to see it right, likeeverything, seeing is believing.
When someone says I'm good atthis, show me.
We're moving into a marketplacenow where I trust you.
But post-COVID, you need toback it up.
You need to verify it becauseI'm going to call you out on it.
I need to connect with theresults and with the person that
(55:16):
applied to this job.
She saw that they had a QR codeout the front.
You've got any jobs?
Yes, scan the QR code.
We're doing video now.
She was a little bit nervous.
Go to our website, have a look.
It's on our YouTube page,specsavers.
She was a little bit nervous,but she's like I got sick of
writing about my strengths andweaknesses and she's like I've
done the job before.
I love your brand.
(55:36):
I'd love to come a job.
When she walked into the store,the owner was like hey, sarah,
nice to meet you.
She's like wow, they know myname.
I feel like I know you Exactly.
Tell me a bit more about you.
It was already.
It already broke the wall downwhere we were concerned about
what are they going to think ofme Now when someone says to you
I liked your video, yeah, you'relike you, like me and this next
(55:59):
generation that's coming in.
So I just to get a little bitdeeper on this.
They are asking do I matter?
Now again coming back tospeaking life, if we can shift
the market and stop taking whoout of hiring and put who back
into hiring and say I like you,I like what I see.
That's going to boostconfidence in people.
(56:19):
That's going to boost themarket.
That's going to boost theeconomy.
That's going to connect andcoordinate this workforce.
That's going to boostconfidence in people.
That's going to boost themarket.
That's going to boost theeconomy.
That's going to connect andcoordinate this world workforce.
That's going to get us out ofthe rut we're in, because it's
about people exactly like sarahgot the job.
She's like.
I actually really enjoyed umcoming to the interview because
I felt like they knew me yeah,and I was actually so excited
about moving past instead ofgoing having a bad morning a bad
(56:41):
interview, sorry, you know.
Sonal (56:42):
Suitable because because the way historically we talk
about interviews is like it's socomforting Instead of going
having a bad morning, a badinterview.
Sorry, you're not suitable,because the way historically we
talk about interviews is likegoing into battle, and this one
is like hey, we're on the sameteam here, you know.
Let's make this happen.
That dude wants her to get thejob.
She wants to get the job.
A lot of people don't realizeactually it's a collaborative
effort and if a tool like thiscan help, then why not?
I have a quick rapid firequestion for you Before we moved
(57:04):
.
I can't believe we've comeclose to the end.
We've been talking for a whileand it has gone so fast, mike,
but I know it's late for you.
Mike (57:10):
Let's do a part two.
Sonal (57:13):
You're right, we might have to do a part two, but
before I let you go because yousaid you're hiring a lot and the
person who's listening andyou're like Mike sounds like a
great guy.
I'd love to work with him and Idid a quick search on LinkedIn
while you were speaking rightnow.
It says something like 30employees already probably,
maybe approximately.
What would you say to someonewho's interested in either
(57:33):
working at UseVerb or a startupscale up that's going to explode
soon and you're looking for anA team?
Give me the top three qualities.
You don't have to explain whatthey are, just give me the words
, the adjectives, the top threequalities that you look for when
you're recruiting your A team.
Mike (57:54):
It's your attitude, not your aptitude, that determines
your altitude.
Sonal (58:00):
I trust Mike to come up with a tweetable, because
everything you've said so farhas been a tweetable.
It's about character.
Mike (58:06):
It's not competence, don't get me wrong.
You've got to have competency.
You've got to be able to do thejob, but you've got to work
with people.
Work should be fun.
You should be able to come towork and not worry about doing
nine till five.
If you're not doing that atwork, find another job.
Find something that gets youout of bed that you really enjoy
doing, because you never work aday in your life if you do that
.
Sonal (58:25):
Yeah, 100%.
I love that.
It's your attitude, not youraptitude, that determine your
altitude Beautifully said.
One last question for you, mike.
If you look back on the lastcouple of decades of your career
, what is that one standoutdefining moment that
supercharged your career andhelped you to move closer to
(58:47):
your current success?
Mike (58:50):
your name is your brand.
So when you do things, do itwith excellence, I'll be honest.
So I'm actually a lazy person.
I don't like to do things twice, but if I'm going to do it once
, I do it right first time and Ido it with excellence because
when I do it, people know that Idid that and when I do things,
it gets done.
So, um, put your name on it,because if you don't get it
(59:12):
finished, even my, my, uh, mydad just said is, if you start
something, you finish better,because everyone knows how to
start something, not everyoneknows how to finish.
So if you've got a mindset ofyou, look at the first day of
school.
Everyone's got a new lunchbox,new uniforms or a new job, new
career, or you're going to starta workout or you're going to
start a run.
If you say you're going to doit this is what teach my kids,
(59:33):
even with sports and and studiesum, if you put your name to say
I'm going to do it, you betterdo it.
Sonal (59:40):
Yeah, I mean, is there a particular memory?
I don't want to hear yourexcuse, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is there a particular memory ormoment that comes to mind that
that moment supercharged the wayyou're, the way you're talking
about it, the way this wassomething my dad used to drill
into me.
Mike (59:54):
I don't want to hear your excuses, I want results.
You said you would do it.
You're you're I want.
But that's where my mindsetscome from.
It's like with every problem.
I see I'm already looking atthree options.
So Dad's built this capacityfor me.
I find it hard to sit withgrief sometimes because I'm
already moving into the healingprocess of like we need to move
forward.
Where sometimes I find it hardwith my wife, we've got to sit
(01:00:14):
there and grieve.
But it's about having aproactive approach of sometimes
you need to sit with things,sometimes you need to move
forward.
But I'd approach of sometimesyou need to sit with things,
sometimes you need to moveforward.
But, um, I'd really say, if youstart something, make sure you
finished it, because that's whatyou measured on.
Um, yes, it's, it's likeeverything.
It's it's the last thing youdid.
It's not what you intended todo, it's not what you were going
to do.
It's what you did.
Um, seeing is believing and uh,talk is cheap.
Sonal (01:00:38):
So you say you're going to do something I like.
I love that.
You ended way Beautiful.
And what's the best way forpeople to learn more about you,
Mike?
Where can they follow?
Mike (01:00:47):
you Usewebcom, we're going to be the world's biggest
employer with no employees.
We are a completely new way tohire.
We are the people's job board.
We're just like every other jobboard, but better.
Going to market right now in2024.
Sonal (01:01:00):
And you're such a great ambassador to the company Global
domination.
That is what Magic Mike isgoing for.
You heard it here first.
Ladies and gentlemen, mike,this has been such a pleasure.
I wish you continued success atUseVerb, at everything you do.
I hope there's a book comingand beyond.
(01:01:21):
Thank you so much for your time, your energy and your
generosity thank you so much, soI really appreciate your time
as well.
Mike (01:01:30):
Uh, I do value these and I love, I love a platform to, to,
to speak life into the market.
Even your listeners you neverknow who's listening, but I'll
just encourage them to, to reachout to, even if it's yourself.
They need advice on wherethey're at and where they're
going.
It's really important to findpeople.
That it says for lack of vision, your people perish.
So find your people, you findyour purpose.
(01:01:52):
So, if you like what Sonal wastalking about, continue to
listen, get fed, speak life, goto market and be the best you
can be.
Sonal (01:02:00):
Thank you.
Hey there, thank you for takingthe time to listen to today's
show.
If you loved it, please doleave me a review.
On Apple Podcasts.
I search high and low to bringyou the very best guests, and
I'm so proud to bring you theirstories and game-changing career
lessons.
The best compliment that youcould ever give me is taking a
(01:02:24):
screenshot of today's episodeand sharing it with your
LinkedIn network and tagging meat Sonal Behl S-O-N-A-L-B-A-H-L.
All right, I look forward tospending time together on the
next episode of the how I GotHired podcast.
Take care of yourself and byefor now.
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