Could a Hollywood talent agent and film producer teach you how to navigate your career with resilience and creativity? That's exactly what John Tarnoff, our guest for this episode, has been doing after an impressive 50-year stint in the film industry. Hear firsthand how John, who contributed to iconic movies like "The Power of One" and "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure," draws from his experiences to help others successfully transition through various career stages. From securing early roles to redefining oneself in later years, this conversation promises to shed light on turning job losses into opportunities for growth and learning.
Imagine leaving a secure career path only to face unexpected challenges. That's a reality I once navigated, stepping away from entertainment to pursue a tech startup, only to confront a major crash. Through networking and an open mind, I found new opportunities at DreamWorks Animation. This episode emphasizes the power of relationships and adaptability over traditional job applications, especially in mid-career stages. Through stories of transformation and serendipity, we highlight how self-discovery can lead you to your dream role, even when the path seems uncertain.
We also tackle some of today’s most pressing job market challenges, like ageism and navigating online job searches. Is the "Open to Work" banner on LinkedIn a proactive step or a misunderstood shortcut? Together with John, we discuss how to handle such perceptions and biases. By exploring the Japanese concept of ikigai, John offers a framework for aligning passion and profession, encouraging you to view career reinvention through a lens of intention and community support. Don’t miss his valuable resources and insights that can kickstart your own career transition journey.
Learn more about John Tarnoff here:
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johntarnoff/
johntarnoff.com/blog (Blog)
midcareerlab.com (Company)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, welcome to the how I Got Hired podcast.
I'm your host, sonal Behal,former HR director and founder
of Supercharge, and I have hadan insane corporate career that
started out in India, then movedto South America and then to
Europe, often working only inSpanish or French, which I had
to learn there from scratch.
(00:20):
Now, why do I call my careerinsane?
Because while I've experiencedcomplete highs, like working
across geographies andindustries, while navigating
challenges like needing visasponsorships, zero network
locally during recessions, andoften while being a new mom to
(00:40):
one of my two kids, I have seencareer heartbreak and multiple
layoffs, as well.
As a career strategist, Istrongly believe that a
fulfilling career is abirthright and not a privilege
for the lucky few who haveaccess to prestigious education,
capital and networks.
(01:01):
And now I am on a mission todemocratize access to high value
career advice by designingaffordable digital courses with
my YouTube channel and thispodcast right here, where we
learn together from ordinarypeople like you and me and how
they created extraordinarycareer success.
(01:21):
I hope this episode reminds youthat if they could do it, you
can do it too.
Now get ready to getsupercharged, let's go.
Hey, welcome back.
Welcome back.
So glad you decided to join ustoday.
My guest today is John Tarnoff,and he is coming to us all the
(01:42):
way from Los Angeles, california, and if you're anything like me
, you think LA and you thinkHollywood.
So, as a matter of fact, thereason I brought that up is
because John started his careerin the movies.
Yes, so he's done a variety ofroles, not necessarily on screen
, but all of the magic thathappens off screen.
(02:04):
Not necessarily on screen, butall of the magic that happens
off screen.
So, right from being a talentagent to working in film
production and if you'rewondering which films are these,
I'm going to name drop a coupleof these right now.
I saw on his bio Power of OneMorgan Freeman was in there Bill
and Ted's excellent adventurewith keanu reeves something that
(02:25):
I grew up with so silly made melaugh.
That's exactly what movies areall about.
And then he moved to dreamworksanimation we all know
dreamworks and developed toptalent over there that was
working on films like kung fuPanda and how to Train your
Dragon.
So I hope you're setting up andI hope I've got your attention.
(02:47):
So this is a very, veryinteresting person to talk to.
Now, what has John been up tosince 2012?
.
He has worked as a career coachand I think that, although all
of these reasons are superimpressive to bring John to the
show Because, as you know, dearlistener, I'm so picky about the
(03:08):
people I invite to the showAnother reason I wanted to bring
John on is because he hasopinions, just like I do, and is
not afraid to share hisopinions and sometimes go
against the grain if need be.
John's career spans almost 50years five zero 50 years and we
(03:30):
have so much to learn from him.
So excited for thisconversation, we're going to
learn so much from you, john.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Thank you so much, sonal, it's great to be here.
Thanks for that great intro.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
You're most welcome, john.
Let's get right into it, becauseyou have so much to teach us in
the decades that you have beenworking since the early 70s and
I have a greedy three-partquestion here so your early
career, your mid-career and thelater career just before you
(04:01):
left corporate and moved to thecoaching side, right?
So in this period of time, let'sstart with the early career,
because I my question is goingto be about roles that made a
huge, deliverable impression onyou and how you got hired into
those roles, because that's thename of the show, how I got
(04:22):
hired.
But want to start with thefirst part of your career where,
like I said, you were in themovies, right, and this is an
industry Hollywood I think anymovie industry is notorious for
handing out rejections like youknow, hot potatoes, like like
you hear a no, yeah, it's likeit's going out of style.
(04:42):
You just keep hearing no andyou know, I don't know how that
builds that resilience musclewhich I'm sure you learned a lot
.
But talk to us about, duringthis period of time, what waser
or late career, because thereare some key differentiators
that I think people who areexperienced will go oh, yeah,
(05:13):
yeah, yeah, that describes it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
People who are at the younger end of the spectrum
will be wondering about that.
Is that in the early career,what I want to talk about is how
you get a job In the mid-career.
I want to talk about is how youget a job In the mid-career.
I want to talk about how youpivot in your career, how you
transition Then in the latecareer if I'm any example and I
(05:40):
think this is really I'm seeingthis more and more with my
clients it's about how you hireyourself in late career.
We'll go back to the beginningor not quite the beginning and
really talk about this questionof resilience because, as you
know from looking at my TEDxtalk, I dine out on the idea and
(06:02):
back to being controversial andsaying things that make people
uncomfortable.
I dine out on the fact that inmy career in entertainment, I
was fired 39% of the time and Icame up with that number in the
TEDx talk kind of as a joke, andpeople laughed, but there was a
nervous laughter because I mean, who talks about this right?
(06:24):
Who talks about getting firedas if it's a metric or?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
something to be proud of, as if it's a badge of honor
.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, right, yes, but I mean this is 2012.
We're coming out of therecession.
I'm talking about how peoplelater in their careers
particularly boomers, but nowwe're talking about Gen X are at
an inflection point and at thattime a lot of people were
having trouble recovering fromthe recession and it was a big
(06:51):
wake-up call for a lot of peoplewho had lost a lot of their
house value, their 401k, theirretirement savings were vastly
reduced.
So the question that I wasposing was well, how do we
recover from this right,particularly with ageism, the
fact that people are livinglonger, people don't want to
(07:11):
retire, people can't afford toretire, I mean parenthetically.
If you think that you've savedenough for retirement and you're
in your 50s and you thinkyou're going to retire at 60 or
62, you've got a pretty goodchance of living through your
80s, maybe even into your 90s.
Can you afford 30 years ofretirement based on what you've
(07:34):
saved?
Today, I would say that mostpeople will say no, they've
examined the books.
They'll say no, no, no.
I need to keep working and, bythe way, working in a work that
(07:55):
you love or where you feeluseful keeps you more engaged,
more vital, more mentally acute,more engaged with people.
It's a kind of a growth mindsetapproach More young as well
right.
I don't want to use the wordyoung because I don't want to
get into the age thing, becausewhat's young, what's old, right?
Oh?
People say oh, you know, youlook, you look young for your
age.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
It's like no, you're right.
You're right.
That is horrible for your age,and especially when they do that
with women.
The gendered part, let me.
Let me rephrase that um, yeah,fresh, keeps you.
Yes, yes, right fresh right.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Fresh, vital, engaged , aware, curious, right?
All of these great qualitiesthat we associate with youth,
but that don't have to beexclusively the purview of youth
, right?
We want to keep those qualitiesgoing throughout our lives,
right?
Yeah, so off the soapbox for asecond.
(08:45):
So back to this question ofcareer stages.
What I've kind of come to theconclusion about in getting
hired, going into career andthrough that early stage,
applies to everyone and appliesto me and my clients today as it
did to me back in the day whichis I never used my resume to
(09:12):
get a job In a volatile,people-oriented, fast-moving
business culture, likeentertainment, it's all about
relationships.
No one gets a job because theysubmit a resume to an open
(09:32):
position.
It's all because of networking.
It's all because someone callsand gets you in.
That's the number one thingthat I learned early on in this
volatile business.
Then I would say the otherthing is to be really proactive
about what you want to do, whatyou can do and how to articulate
(09:58):
it and speak about it, to notbe afraid to engage with the
position, the hiring manager,the recruiter, and have a
negotiation to determine whetheryou are the right fit.
You don't want to, even at ayoung age.
You don't want to go in to ajob opportunity as a supplicant?
(10:21):
Please, please, hire me forthis job.
I'll be a good boy or girl.
No, you want to go in providingvalue.
I'll tell you a story aboutsomething that happened to me,
which was a bit of a surprise,but it was something I did out
of necessity.
It turned into a really goodexample of this.
(10:45):
I was working for a companythat had some as a production
executive supervising thedevelopment and the production
of feature films.
This is the 1980s.
The head of the company hadraised a lot of money.
He had set up offices overseas.
There was a company inAustralia that he had started.
(11:06):
He had started building astudio in Australia.
Things were not going well.
The films that we wereproducing were not successful at
the box office.
It was slowly going downhill.
So one day the guy who wasrunning the office in Australia
called me up and he said look,you guys are going out of
business.
You've got six months.
He said I want to hire you tocome work for me at the
(11:31):
Australian affiliate and whatwe're going to do is we're going
to get investors, we're goingto buy the company away from the
US company.
We're going to start our ownthing and I want you to run the
Los Angeles office.
I said, great, we did all ofthat.
Sure enough, we found aninvestor.
The investor came in, theybought the company, but they
(11:55):
weren't so sold on the idea ofhaving a Los Angeles office.
One of their associates, one ofthe colleagues of the CEO, was
in Los Angeles and he came tosee me to kind of check out the
office and what we were doing.
I showed him the films we wereworking on, blah, blah, blah.
He says to me look, they're notinto this idea of having the
(12:16):
office here.
He said nothing against you,you're a perfectly good guy, but
we're going to shut it down.
And I thought, oh great, youknow, I got to go out and look
for a job again and then I hadan idea.
I said to him would you be opento reading a proposal about the
business and about what thevalue of this office is and
(12:38):
taking it back to Australia?
And he said sure.
He said, can you get it to metomorrow morning?
I said yeah.
So I went home, I worked most ofthe night on this proposal and
this is, of course, you know,I'm on a real typewriter, right,
there's no word processors.
So I come back in, give himthis five 10-page report and he
(12:58):
looks through, says interesting,and he goes away and I wait.
And I wait for a day, nothing.
Second day he calls.
He says we like it.
He says, as a matter of fact,we like it so much that we're
going to keep the office open.
I'm going to come in and run it.
You're going to be theexecutive VP, I'm going to run
the business side and thedistribution side.
(13:18):
You're going to run theproduction side and we're going
to be the executive VP.
I'm going to run the businessside and the distribution side.
You're going to run theproduction side.
And we're going to make moviesin Australia.
We're going to blah, blah, blah.
So I saved that job and I builtmyself a runway for the next
five years and upgraded my roleand my profile because I took
(13:40):
the initiative to not take nofor an answer.
Yes, and I like this answerbecause not just the initiative
to not take no for an answer.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yes, and I like this answer because not just the
initiative and being proactive,but you're exactly exemplifying
what you talked about earlier.
Which people would say, yeah,but such a risky move, I would
say it's risky not to do it.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I agree.
You have nothing to lose,because the worst case is
they're letting you go.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
No, literally, you have nothing to lose except a
couple of hours of sleep atnight, right, and that bought
you five years of runway.
So brilliant, brilliant,brilliant.
I love this.
So I want to just recap thisfor the listener, because John's
going to give us these examplesof early, mid career and later
career, and it doesn't matterwhether we are talking about
(14:26):
hiring in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90sand beyond, because at the end
of the day, people are people,right.
We said we were John and I werechatting backstage.
There's a very famous expressionin French the more things
change, the more they remain thesame, right, we don't tend to
go that far from the pendulum.
So this is a great example.
(14:48):
I'm also excited to hear aboutthe mid-career and I'm
especially excited to hear aboutlater career, at 50 plus,
because I know you have alinkedin learning course on how
to get hired at 50 and incertain cultures, unfortunately,
there is ageism that exists andand you're seen as less
desirable, which is obviously,we all know, complete nonsense.
But how do we address that bias, et cetera.
(15:10):
So before we get there I'mgetting ahead of myself Talk to
us about the next role afteryou've got 15, 20 years in your
belt.
That was a difference maker.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So the mid-career is about the pivot, and I see this
developmentally, from apsychological point of view all
over the place.
After you get to a certainpoint, you've climbed the
mountain, personally,professionally, you've gotten
promoted, you've got someachievements under your belt,
you've got some experience,you've made some mistakes and
(15:44):
you have kind of something tosell at this point.
But developmentally, in midlife, you're starting to think, well
, what's it all about?
And you're starting to kind ofquestion now, from this vantage
point, what is your purpose,what is the meaning of life and
career?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
What am I doing?
Can you tell me when you hadthat, john, because I think a
lot of people can relate withwhat you're saying?
Can you tell us at what pointyou had these thoughts, like
your age?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
It really was 50.
It was plus or minus 50.
For me it kind of coincidedwith this occurrence
professionally around the lossof my startup.
So I had I had kind of taken asabbatical from entertainment in
the 90s when multimedia came inand cd-rom games were a thing
(16:39):
and uh, I thought, wow, whatanother great way to tell.
And I was a bit of a tech nerdand had been working with
computers since the mid-80s andI thought, oh, this will be fun,
this will be anotherinteresting opportunity.
And one thing led to another.
I met a guy.
(17:00):
We started a company together.
We built a technology andraised money in the bubble in
the mid to late 90s.
We had this company going.
We had a couple of bigcontracts.
This was a customerservice-oriented company using
artificial intelligence, whichwas very new.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Novel at the time.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
yes, this was very, very early and very rudimentary
from what we have today.
Nonetheless, we were makingtraction and then, in the spring
of 2001, the market crashed andeverything crashed with it,
including our company, and allof the investors that we had.
Raising additional money for uswent away, and the clients went
(17:44):
away.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And within about six months to a year, and there were
all sorts of crazy things goingon.
No, but there was also 9-11 afew months later.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And then there was 9-11.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
That didn't help.
And then there was 9-11, right.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So it was just a crazy time and I realized that I
was going to have to, we weregoing to have to shut this thing
down, and I didn't know what Iwanted to do and I felt like I
had not so much turned my backon entertainment, but I was no
longer as interested in thosejobs playing the politics and I
(18:18):
had kind of again, I hadn'tburned bridges but I really
hadn't.
But you moved on.
Yeah, exactly, I really kind ofmoved on and I didn't burned
bridges, but I really hadn't.
But you moved on.
Yeah, exactly, I really kind ofmoved on and I didn't know what
to do and I thought, okay, well, what are my options?
I thought I've got to dosomething.
I have to do a pattern.
Interrupt here, right, I can't.
What's the Einstein line about?
(18:40):
You can't solve a problem atthe same level at which it was
created.
So I thought I got to dosomething and it occurred to me
that I should go back to schooland I knew of a program this
program in spiritual psychology,a small graduate institution in
Santa Monica.
(19:00):
A number of people I knew hadbeen through the program, not to
become psychologists, butbecause it was a great break for
them to learn more aboutthemselves, learn more about how
to engage with other people,how to solve problems.
I thought this would be a greatopportunity for me to just get
clear and learn about myself,but I was going to have to raise
(19:26):
the money to do it, so I had totake another mortgage on the
house.
I knew I had about a nine-monthramp to figure this out
Somewhere along the line.
Get another job In October of2002, when I started this.
If you had told me nine monthsfrom now you're going to be
sitting at an office atDreamWorks Animation making
(19:47):
Hollywood money again, doingthis amazing job that you'd
never have done before, workingwith great people, I would have
said you were smoking something.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Never say never, never say never.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
It seems so unbelievable.
Yeah, but what I did was Istarted networking in a
different way, new things andhaving new subjects to talk
about and discovering new stuffand kind of on this growth spurt
, as it were.
Intellectually, I startedcoming across differently.
(20:34):
I didn't come across like, oh,here's a guy whose startup just
failed, he needs a job.
I was coming across as someonewho's kind of engaged with ideas
and asking questions andinterested in what was going on.
That was new, that wastechnological, about transitions
, about whatever.
And I started having meetingsand one of those meetings was
(20:56):
with a friend of mine who wasworking at DreamWorks and he
said wow, it sounds like you'vebeen doing some interesting
stuff and it sounds like yourcompany was interesting.
Would you ever think aboutjoining us at DreamWorks?
I said are you kidding thatwould.
It sounds like you've beendoing some interesting stuff and
it sounds like your company wasinteresting.
So would you ever think aboutjoining us at DreamWorks?
I said are you kidding?
That would be fantastic.
I said is there a job?
He said no, we're not lookingfor anybody right now.
I thought, oh great, he said,but let me start introducing you
(21:17):
to some of my colleagues overthere and let's start getting
some conversations going.
Let's start getting someconversations going.
Well, sure enough, it took sixmonths of conversations, but I
started to get traction throughthat process and the lesson here
for me, for the purposes of ourcall, is that in mid-career, to
(21:41):
a large extent at all stages inyour career, you get jobs
through conversations, notthrough applications.
So you want to get yourselfinto as many conversations as
possible where you can get toknow people, they can get to
know you, and magic happens.
And magic happened for me atDreamWorks yes, yes, and at a
(22:06):
certain point they realized thatI was a valuable piece of
talent that they needed tocreate a role for, turned out to
(22:29):
map to a number of skills thatI happen to have regarding
technology, adoption, movieproduction, team management and
development.
Yeah, and that brought me inand I was there for over six
years in this unique role.
That really was the best jobthat I had.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
I love the story so much.
There's so many lessons in here.
I do agree with you aboutapplications versus
conversations.
I'm not always sure it's either, or Sometimes it helps, oh, I
agree, but the later you are inyour career, it is definitely
the conversations that trumpapplications because of the
(23:11):
relationships and a lot of thosepositions are not even
advertised.
Classic example exhibit A isthat role, and they created an
exception for you.
People don't realize whenpeople fall in love.
They tend to help you.
They fall in love with you.
They're like I'm interestingguy.
However, the reason it doesn'twork with a lot of people is
(23:31):
because it takes time and yousaid six years, uh, six months.
I had a.
Yeah, I had a guy on my showwho talked about adobe and it
was his dream company.
It took him three years to getinto it and you need patience
and when it happened it was soorganic and people said lucky,
overnight success.
And they're like he doesn't.
They don't see all theschmoozing and all the
conversations I had to do, butyou know it it's.
(23:53):
It's hard work, so I love this.
Um, I love this idea that yousaid.
I never thought of it in thisway, although I, you know, I
have a couple of videos on myyoutube channel about if you're
not sure what to do, an MBA is agood idea, but the pattern
interrupt.
I like that.
You said pattern interrupt amaster's program, mba, and in
this case, a master's inspiritual psychology.
(24:15):
I mean, I love that.
That sounds so California rightnow, guilty, so this sounds so
juicy guilty.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
so, um, this sounds so juicy and um, so let me, let
me, let me just put a put alittle bit of a of a
specification on that program,because the the spiritual,
psychology aspect of it is abouttaking personal responsibility
for everything that goes on inyour life, right, that's in fact
perfect, because I had afollow-up question for you here.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I know this was a while ago, but for someone who's
listening and maybe tiny bitcurious about spiritual
psychology, is there oneparticular thing that you still
remember today in terms of thelessons learned?
A quick one.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Oh, I use this every day.
I use this every day in mycoaching program Tell us, tell
us which one you know.
And, and, and it starts withthis question of personal
responsibility and uh, and youknow, as time goes on in our
careers, we accumulate baggageand it's normal.
(25:21):
You know.
You go through life, you getdinged right, you get beaten up
a little bit, and whether it'sgetting fired, whether it's
making a bad decision, whetherit's having a toxic boss,
whether you have workplacerelationships that don't go well
, whether you make a mistake andfind yourself in a job that's
the wrong job for you, there isno straight line and we are kind
(25:47):
of taught to be ashamed ofourselves.
If there is no straight line,you know what's wrong with you.
My mother used to say why can'tyou hold a job in that business
?
You're always changing jobs.
Why can't you hold a job?
Because in an earlier era, inthe industrial era, the idea was
(26:07):
you were a cog in the machine.
You got hired at 20.
You worked for 40.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And you were a lifer.
And you were a lifer.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, you were a lifer and then they took care of
you, but of course that's allgone.
So the idea of spiritualpsychology, reallyate it on the
inside as a way of engaging moreproactively and successfully on
(26:47):
the outside.
I remember the person who wasmy supervisor at DreamWorks, who
was the COO, and I'll talkabout her in another instance in
a second at DreamWorks, who wasthe COO and I'll talk about her
in another instance in a second.
She in one meeting.
She said to me um, you seem tohave no ego because you're so
(27:07):
kind of cooperative and engaging.
I said, well, I wouldn't sayI'm a cooperative, uh.
And she would say, well, yeah,I guess, I guess you're not
necessarily cooperative.
I said, but but those questionsof ego seem kind of irrelevant
to me for me, that's thehonestly, that's the ultimate
compliment.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
If someone says you, you appear like you have no ego,
because I do think the ego canbe the enemy at times.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Well, the, the ego, can be the enemy, absolutely.
But uh, that, I think, goes tomy training, my psychology
training, because I'll tell youan interesting idea, an
interesting, interestingincident.
I haven't thought about this ina while.
There was a period of time whenI was, I think, early on in the
DreamWorks job where I had anopportunity to move back into
(27:54):
production and I had said tothem, going in, I don't want to
do production anymore, I want todo people stuff.
And there was this opportunityit was kind of like this shiny
carrot that was kind of dangledat me to go and produce this
film.
And so I started kind of veeringtowards that and all of a
(28:18):
sudden I noticed that thingswere different.
I would walk down the hall andpeople weren't looking at me
directly, they weren't talkingto me.
That's the way it felt, and Iwasn't feeling balanced around
this decision.
And the minute I thought, okay,I'm letting this go, I'm not
going to, I'm not going to, I'mgoing to pull my.
(28:39):
As we say in America, you know,you throw your hat in the ring,
you kind of declare yourcandidacy.
I pulled my hat back out of thering, I said I'm not interested
in this position anymore andeverything changed back again
and it was like oh hi, how areyou?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
It was like all of a sudden, the energy, energy came
back and I thought, oh, that'sinteresting, that's the universe
.
So many signals telling youdude, don't do it.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
That's the universe telling me.
I'm on the right track here.
I need to.
I need to follow this track sothis is another lesson for me,
for the people that I work with,for all of us about.
About, watch those signals,right?
Oh yeah, watch those signalsand don't be in denial about it.
Right, don't be afraid to kindof confront the reality of what
(29:28):
you see.
Anyway, some lessons fromspiritual psychology.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I love that.
And also, you know I wasn'tplanning to ask you this, john,
but this is so interestingbecause you worked with people,
you identified them, youdeveloped them, you retained
them.
Some of the top people thatwent on to make legendary stuff
that my kids have grown up withand love Kung Fu Panda, how to
(29:54):
Train your Dragon oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I see their credits.
I mean I watch animated moviesand I see their credits.
I I mean I watch animatedmovies and I see their credits,
and they're now producing anddirecting these movies.
I'm going oh, I hired them outof school yeah, they were babies
.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
So talk to us about how do you identify who's got
the it factor back them.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Well, the first thing that occurs to me is that these
are people who never say no,Whether it is their willingness
to take on an assignment.
Go the extra mile, not allowtheir boundaries to be overrun.
(30:47):
These are some of the qualities, I think, that make a leader,
Because, at the end of the day,these are leadership qualities
and I think the people who aresuccessful, even if they are not
in quote-unquote leadershiproles, they're exercising
leadership.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
That's great.
I have so many videos on myYouTube channel where I talk
about this stuff.
I said this is hard to teach.
It's easier to discern the hardtechnical skills, but if you
had everyone with the same levelof technical skills you know
animation and motion graphicsand all of that stuff being
equal, the attitude right, uh,is harder to train.
(31:29):
You either kind of see it, yougot it or you don't.
So this is so confirming, thisis so affirming, so thank you.
So I appreciate this.
And now talk to us about gettinghired in your 50s and beyond,
because you've been through thisjourney, right, and you've seen
this with your clients, andthere can be I hate to say this,
(31:50):
but there can be a little bitof a victim mindset.
You know it's so bitter, itdoes feel like you're, you know,
removed from contention becauseof literally a factor that you
cannot change, which is on yourpassport and your birth
(32:10):
certificate, and that victimhoodcan be very addictive as well.
You know, I hear things likeI'm in my 50s, I'm a white man,
so it's, you know, and I'm likeyou know, it'm a white man,
sonal, I'm like it's so hard towin with that attitude.
Help us with that, sorry, andhelp us with that, but also tell
us from your own example on.
I don't want to say how do youbeat ageism, but in the sense
(32:32):
that, how do you play the game?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, we got a lot to unpack here.
I just had this conversationyesterday with a prospective
client who he didn't want to sayit in the call, but I said to
him you're experiencing the oldwhite guy syndrome.
He's getting right to the finalinterviews and they're not
(32:54):
hiring him.
Yeah, and he is.
He's not being given thefeedback directly, but he is, in
some cases, able to navigatearound to find out who got the
job.
And so let's talk about thethird element and this idea of
firing yourself and a couple ofthings about that.
(33:17):
One is that I actually I didfire myself at DreamWorks, which
is crazy, but I had gotten tothe point and this is 2010,
where the programs that I hadstarted were in place, they were
running, and I went to the COOone day and I said look, this is
a crazy meeting.
(33:37):
But here's my question Is thereanything left for me to do
around here?
And she turned right red andshe said I'm going to answer the
question.
She said but first of all, Iwant you to know we love you.
You've done an amazing job andno one else could have done it
the way, and it was the perfect.
(33:58):
You were the perfect person forus at this time, she said, but
to answer your question,probably not yeah, wow, what
courage, john.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
What courage to ask the question because, you know
again, your instincts weretelling you dude, this is a
well-oiled machine, you've donea good job and it can run
without you I was starting tofeel like I was eating myself up
and I and I felt like I wassmiling less right I don't know
(34:30):
if that was true.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I know what you mean.
I know what you mean.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
There are times we can even like you know, soul
crushing can also be adescription sometimes.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
The job had been so good, it had been so much fun.
There's so much energy.
The people I worked with weregreat.
I had this fantastic team and Ithink when you have that kind
(35:06):
of a good experience, when itstarts to go south, it's such a
contrast that I mean, in my case, I thought I got to do
something about this and Ireally wanted to stay there.
I didn't want to fire myself.
I would have been happy to staythere.
And the COO said look, you knoweveryone around here.
She said go talk to everyoneand see.
You know what we're doing.
You know all the initiativesthat are going on.
See if there's something thatyou feel like you can plug
yourself into.
And the only thing that I couldhave done was because we were
(35:31):
doing overseas ventures in Indiaand China and I thought, well,
I could move to India or China,but I wasn't going to do that.
I was going to India or China,but I wasn't going to do that.
I was going to you know, pickmy, you know, pull my kid out of
high school and, you know, goto India or China.
So I realized that there wasn'tanything there and I kept
trying to come up with new ideasand and it.
I wanted to do more in theeducation space and it just, it
(35:54):
just wasn't the time.
You know, the company was goingin a different direction.
So we negotiated a verycivilized exit and unusual for
Hollywood.
There's a lot of bad endings inHollywood.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Yeah, but did you get this John from family or
friends?
Like dude, what did you do?
Like why did you like thiswasn't broken?
Like why did you have to go inand and you know what I mean
Like, right, sure.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Sure, I did get that from.
I did get that from some people.
But I explained, I said youknow, it's just, I kind of came
to the end of the rope here andI and I, I kind of I kind of
have done what I was called todo.
You know, the mission was doneand in a in a sense that's a lot
of how this business works.
(36:43):
When you go on a movie, you dothe project right, you're all
about the project, and when theproject's done, the project's
done right, and you go off andyou do a new project.
So in that sense it was similarto to the production cycle.
But at age 60 or so I thought,well, I'm getting out of here,
(37:03):
but I don't want to get anotherjob, I do not want to go work
for another company.
I am at the stage in my life andthis kind of goes to the third
career stage where I'm not goingto be a good employee.
I have too many ideas.
It's not that I'm set in myways, it's that I'm going to
(37:24):
want to do it kind of my way andI'm not going to just lie down
and take orders.
So either I'm running a show orI'm doing my own thing and I
thought, well, I've never reallydone my own thing and I've
never really done my own thingin this area because I was very
fired up about education andtraining and development and all
(37:45):
of the stuff that led to mycareer coaching practice.
I wasn't sure that that's whatI was going to do at that time,
but this was the direction thatI wanted to go in, and I had
built up this grounding atDreamWorks in education and
wound up, actually, right out ofDreamWorks, being called by one
of the universities that wewere working with to hire kids
(38:08):
into entry-level programs andthey said, well, we have a new
program in LA, we'd like you tocome in and help us run that.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
And I did that for 10 years.
They found you.
They found you out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Well, no, they knew me, I'd been working with them.
So again, it was relationships,right, yeah, they remembered
you.
I built relationships with 40different universities over the
years that I'd been atDreamWorks doing these
entry-level hiring programs.
So they came to me and theysaid hey, we see you're leaving.
Do you want to talk to us aboutcoming to work with us in this
(38:39):
program?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
And it was a it was a half time.
How did they know, sorry?
How did they know you wereleaving?
Because you know LinkedIn andyou know the feed.
It wasn't the same as it istoday, so you did something to
stay.
Well, I announced it.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I announced it.
I said I'm leaving.
I'm leaving to go off and do myown consulting practice.
You sent like an email no or Idon't think I sent a blanket
announcement like a birthannouncement or something,
personalized it, but I letpeople know Good, good, right,
(39:13):
it was really important that itbe my decision Right, even
though it was kind of, you know,was half my decision, half
their decision.
We just came to a parting ofthe ways.
It was different.
They were very generous aboutit.
I had my final meeting withJeffrey Katzenberg, who was the
(39:34):
CEO, legendary guy.
He said so what can I do foryou?
You know, is there something Ican do for you on your way out?
I said, yeah, you can write mea recommendation.
And he said, sure, of course.
So he said, why don't you writethe first draft?
Perfect Right, and that's justlike to insert that If you walk
(39:57):
out with your head high, toinsert that if you walk out with
your head high, even if theyfire you, you want to walk out
with your head high because youdon't want to burn the bridge,
you want to turn that to youradvantage.
(40:24):
So stop and this is the egothing again stop thinking about
how a victim, what a victim youare and why you got fired and
someone else didn't get fired,and how unfair it is and how the
world is terrible, and think,okay, how can I turn this into
an advantage?
How can I do the best with thissituation?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And to the question of ageismnow.
And why?
Why ageism?
And what do we do about ageism?
Well, we're not going to getanywhere by complaining about it
.
We have to circumvent it.
(40:49):
I think this goes to picking upfrom that 50-year-old mid-career
question about meaning andpurpose and now, in late career
mid to late career reallyputting that into the forefront.
Because if you can articulatethe value that you deliver not
the roles that you perform orthe tasks that you do, but the
real value that you deliver, theproduct, really, the outcome,
(41:14):
the transformation that youdeliver through your work, and
you can articulate this in a waythat really establishes that
value, then people don't carehow old you are.
They want that value.
You have to sell it.
You have to position it for thecustomer, for the client, for
(41:36):
the employer.
It's not about well, here's whatI do, here's what I can do,
here's what I deliver for you, Ican do anything.
It's like no, here's what youneed.
What if we could create thisresult for you.
Talk about that strategy.
Don't give away your secretsauce, but talk about that
(41:58):
strategy.
Talk about that outcome.
Create this in theirimagination, this vision of what
it would be like if you wereworking for them.
And no matter what you dowhether you are going for a
full-time position or aconsultancy or a part-time
position always take theattitude of a consultant
(42:20):
delivering value to a client.
Never think of yourself as anemployee looking for direction
from a supervisor.
It's a key mindset difference.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yes, very much, very much.
The key mindset difference yes,very much, very much.
I talk about that as well.
And also the consultant slashCEO of your career as opposed to
an order taker.
We're more than that.
We're all more than that.
I love this.
I also one thing I want tocredit you for and we talked
about this offline it wasrefreshing to see your LinkedIn
(42:53):
profile, john, because, first ofall, I think everybody should
read the about section.
It's written so well.
It takes me, you know.
It's like you're holding ourhand and you're taking us down a
journey to the story and you dowhat a lot of gurus I'm going
(43:13):
to put this in air code careergurus, especially in the US they
advise us not to do, and thatis.
You have mentioned yourgraduation year.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
I love it.
I have mentioned it as well,and many people say do not, and
ageism bias, but you're like, Idon't care, I'm going to do it
because eventually people aregonna find out who cares.
Exactly now.
In that vein, I want to stayhere for a minute and appeal to
the opinionated john, which wehave all started to enjoy a lot,
(43:45):
which is honestly a breath offresh air.
I want to highlight a post thatyou published late last year
and I highly recommend to ourlistener to check it out.
It's in John's featured section.
It's very hard to miss it, andin this post you talked about
the green open to work banner.
You took a lot of heat on thatpost, john.
(44:07):
Oh my gosh, the comment sectionis so brutal and I want to know
, since you have published thispost, what is your latest
position on the open to workbanner.
You know, sometimes when wepublish something, you know,
like Adam Grant says, thinkagain.
You're like we're allowed toslightly, you know, change our
(44:30):
mind or adapt our position onthe situation.
And the part two is I also wantto know about the comment
section because, until andunless the listener doesn't read
them.
I mean you were so much underattack and some of the attacks
were personal, like it was hardto read and you have not only
(44:51):
displayed them, not only haveyou not blocked those people,
but it's in your featuredsection.
So talk about being batteredand bruised.
So this is a two-parter yourposition on the open to a green
banner and life in the commentsection trolls.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
So for me, just the position on the green banner
hasn't really changed that much.
Position on the green bannerhasn't really changed that much.
The green banner is kind of alazy job seeker's way of
pursuing a job.
If you think that putting thatopen to work badge on your
(45:26):
profile picture is going to getyou a job and you can just kind
of sit back and pray and peoplewill notice and people will see
you're a good guy, good gal, youwant to be hired, please hire
me.
I'd need to work harder.
(45:52):
And first of all, everyone onLinkedIn 100% of people who are
on LinkedIn are open to work.
It's why we're on LinkedIn bydefault.
Yes, right.
So that's a kind of a coylittle way that we can kind of
(46:15):
raise our little hand and goplease hire me.
You know that bugs me, right?
Because I think it's a verybrutal hiring marketplace out
there.
People are getting fired,people are working in toxic
workplaces.
We're still talking about returnto work and hybrid work.
(46:38):
What is it now that one of theFANG companies I don't know if
it's Microsoft that if you areout of the office more than one
day or two days a week, you areineligible for promotion?
Oh my gosh, yeah, right, sowe're seeing all sorts of bias
(47:01):
and crazy behavior going on frommanagement still, and you need
to be more proactive about it,and that was my message is it's
just not gonna serve you.
You know if and that was mymessage is it's just not going
to serve you.
You know, if you think thatthis is going to do it and
you're going to just be waitingfor the email to hit your inbox,
it's not going to happen.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
No, I understand.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
That's a fair point and that was my point.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah, if it's done.
First of all, I don't thinkpeople who gave such hate in the
comments, I don't think theyactually read Well they didn't
read the blog post, right.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
They didn't read the article, right, because the blog
post is really much more about.
Okay, don't stop here.
Here's what you do, right?
Here's how to be more proactiveabout it.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
The lazy part I've understood.
If that is all you do and youpray, it's not enough.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's completely fair and I just that's
completely fair help someone gettheir job and it basically is a
networking style post, adefault LinkedIn post which says
please refer me to if you hearof anything I'm interested in a
job, and then it says so-and-sois interested in this, this and
(48:27):
this, and it's similar.
My response to that is similarto the open to work badge,
because you can't go out withthe default wording that
LinkedIn gives you.
You have to amplify that and bespecific about the work you're
looking for, the kinds ofcompanies you want to work at.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
A hundred percent.
I wouldn't count on the AI inthe message section.
Oh my God, like you know,they'll be like hey, oh, john,
it's been some time.
How are you doing?
You know those templates thatAI suggests.
They're terrible.
So we have to apply our ownsort of initiative and
(49:07):
intelligence.
No, so that's a very good point.
Doing that alone is not enough,but doing that in conjunction
with something else.
We need a strategy, right,first of all.
Second of all, the people whohad a big problem with your post
.
They say things like I look forpeople, I proactively look for
people who have the open to workbanner because they think that
they're immediately available.
They are hungry.
I totally get that.
(49:28):
I get that and I love that.
I love that they are being openabout it.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Right?
Well, they are few and farbetween.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
They are few and far between Exactly what.
They don't understand all therecruiters that the rest of us,
when we talk to them.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
I talk to them, you talk to them understand that
someone's value is not dependentupon whether they are currently
employed.
An employer, however, wants theperson who is employed the
employer does not want to dealwith the question of why did
(50:15):
they get let go from their priorposition?
Blah, blah, blah.
Because that employer, thathiring manager supervisor, is
going to say where did you hirethat person from?
Where were they last?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
And that is a problem ?
No, that is a problem.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Well, they were let go from.
You hired someone who wasunemployed.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Now the thing is ultimatelythere is a problem.
This is the problem, this isthe way of thinking which is
problematic.
That is the source, right, thatis the source.
So we're beating up the wrongsort of beast here.
And secondly, they're the guyswho pay the bill, right?
They're the ones who pay theexecutive, recruiters, et cetera
.
Exactly, is it fair?
(50:54):
No, of course not, but I'm apragmatist and I think you are
as well.
It's not about what's fair.
It's not about doing the rightthing A lot of those people talk
about.
Either they talk about doingthe right thing because it's a
cruel market, or they talk aboutthis is how I do it, that, or
they talk about this is how I doit, that virtue sort of
signaling.
Both are true.
The third point is there is abig majority of people who are
(51:28):
not actively logged on toLinkedIn 14 hours a day and make
these kind of messages.
Those are people in their ownbubbles who are not living on
LinkedIn, who want someone whoalready works.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
I had plenty of recruiters reach out to me on
that post and say you're right.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
But they will not say .
That's the whole point.
I have a problem.
They will not say it publicly.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Oh, but if you look on that thread and I don't want
to kind of get back into it, itwas so long ago but there are
plenty of people on that threadwho were positive about it and
said no, I get that, but a lotof them will not say it publicly
.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
but they don't want to get attacked.
They don't want to get attacked.
You took it for the team.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
I'll tell you, and when I first saw the flaming
going on I felt really dejected.
Because I'm a people pleaser, Iwant you know.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
I talk about.
I think you wouldn't be humanif you didn't get dejected.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Right.
I mean, I wanted to be a bit ofa scold on a certain level.
Yeah, I wanted to kind ofencourage people to do better.
That was the idea and that kindof that's what gets me riled up
.
But then I thought, after aboutan hour of feeling like, oh
shit, I'm going to really, youknow, people don't like me and
whatever, I'm in trouble now Ithought no, no, no, no, no, no,
(52:47):
no.
This is good, this is good.
I've generated some controversy.
I really don't care about thesepeople.
They are.
They are defensive becausethey've got something that's
going on with them.
Spiritual psychology again.
Right, this is their problem.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
And it's interesting because they said the opposite.
They said, ah, but this guy,why is he saying this?
Because he's peddling, you know, career services and resumes,
and I was know what.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
here's the thing that .
Here's the thing, not so muchabout the uh, the, the uh, open
to work badge, but what gotpeople really, really upset was
when I said if you areunemployed, you want to make the
first bullet on your experience.
Section a consult, consultancy.
Right, you want to portrayyourself as someone who is not
(53:37):
unemployed.
You are continually working andopen to consulting work in your
field.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
And some of the best LinkedIn trainers have made the
same point on my LinkedIn livesessions.
For the reason, exactly for thereason that LinkedIn penalizes
you.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
If you are the worst comments I got were people who
didn't like that.
They said you're telling peopleto lie, Lie, yeah, Right.
A consultant just someone wholoses their job is not a
consultant, right.
A consultant is someone who isthis and this and this and
you're telling people this isgarbage, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Last thing I'm going to say is when any of those
people, if they were ever tolose their job, they would
probably put the consultant'stitle as well.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Well, I hope they would I hope they would Full
circle.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
But thank you, john, really appreciate the frankness
here in this conversation.
And there's one particularquestion I ask all my guests and
I want to hear from you.
And there's one particularquestion I ask all my guests and
I want to hear from you.
When you look back on thisillustrious decades-long career
I think 50, almost 50 or 50-plusyears is there one standout
(54:45):
defining moment thatsupercharged your career and
helped you to move closer toyour current success?
Speaker 2 (54:52):
I saw that question and I had an answer, but another
answer just occurred to me, andit's a moment, it's literally a
single moment, where the firstfilm that I got to produce on my
own 1986, a film that bombed,by the way, a little
(55:16):
action-adventure thriller movie,but we were filming one night
it was a dance hall scene andthe good guy is being chased
through this dance club by thebad guy and interrupts the band
and runs through the band andknocks the band over and goes
(55:39):
offstage 500 extras, some clubin Hollywood, some big cavernous
club in Hollywood, and I wasstanding I was actually standing
on the bar in the one corner asall this was going on and I
thought, wow, this is somethingthat started inside my head.
(56:01):
I woke up one morning with anidea for a movie and here we are
, yeah, two years later, andwe're making it.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
And I thought, wow, that is, that's just a powerful
feeling to have accomplishedthat.
And I kind of say that becauseI want people to feel like your
ideas matter and you canmanifest your ideas.
It may not be easy to do.
(56:30):
It may not be easy to do, itmay not happen fast, but if you
set a clear intention and engagewith your community to support
you, enlist that support mostthings are possible yeah, well,
definitely, thoughts becomethings.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
I got so many goosebumps listening to this
story because, yeah, it's like,I think of it as the OBE I call
it OBE outer body experiences.
It's like, literally, you'relooking at, you know, john,
there's a big John looking atthe I don't want to say little
John, but you know looking andthen you're like dude, what are
we doing here?
(57:11):
Right, how did this happen?
How did this happen?
And you're like dude, yeah,what are we doing here?
Right, how did this happen?
How did this happen?
And you're talking about an ideain 1984 and he made it into a
movie in 1986.
What happens to the movie?
That's besides, the point.
That's and you had so manysuccesses so it doesn't matter,
it rounds off.
But here we are talking aboutit in 2024, 40 years.
How awesome is that?
Amazing, amazing, john.
(57:31):
So what is the best way?
Cause you have a lot of stuffgoing on.
You've got a podcast, you'vegot a book, you've got a TEDx,
you've got a very activepresence on LinkedIn, as we just
talked about.
So what is the best way forpeople to learn more about you
and your work?
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Well, absolutely Connect with me on LinkedIn.
I'm the only John Tarnoff onLinkedIn, so can find me there
If you're interested in gettingstarted on this career process.
I want to encourage you tostart with this concept of the
ikigai, the Japanese notion oflife's purpose.
(58:08):
It is interpreted in the Westas really having to do with four
questions, and it isinterpreted in the West as
really having to do with fourquestions what do you love to do
?
What are you good at?
What does your world need?
The classic question is whatdoes the world need?
That's too much.
What does your world need, whatdoes your business need, your
industry, your community, andwhat can you get paid for?
At the intersection of thosefour questions is the beginning
(58:30):
of your career transition,career reinvention,
reimagination, and there is anexercise worksheet that you can
download from my site.
So it's johntarnoffcom slash.
Four questions the number.
Four questions, no spaces.
Speaker 1 (58:46):
I will make sure that link is in the show notes so
people can take advantage.
So, John, this has been such adelight.
Thank you so much for your time, your generosity, your candor
today, and we wish you continuedsuccess with everything you
venture into.
Speaker 2 (59:03):
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
Hey there, thank you for taking the time to listen to
today's show.
If you loved it, please doleave me a review on Apple
Podcasts.
I search high and low to bringyou the very best guests, and
I'm so proud to bring you theirstories and game-changing career
lessons.
The best compliment that youcould ever give me is taking a
(59:31):
screenshot of today's episodeand sharing it with your
LinkedIn network and tagging meat Sonal Behl S-O-N-A-L-B-A-H-L.
All right, I look forward tospending time together on the
next episode of the how I GotHired podcast.
Take care of yourself and byefor now.
Hey there, welcome to the how I Got Hired podcast.
I'm your host, sonal Behal,former HR director and founder
of Supercharge, and I have hadan insane corporate career that
started out in India, then movedto South America and then to
Europe, often working only inSpanish or French, which I had
to learn there from scratch.
(00:20):
Now, why do I call my careerinsane?
Because while I've experiencedcomplete highs, like working
across geographies andindustries, while navigating
challenges like needing visasponsorships, zero network
locally during recessions, andoften while being a new mom to
(00:40):
one of my two kids, I have seencareer heartbreak and multiple
layoffs, as well.
As a career strategist, Istrongly believe that a
fulfilling career is abirthright and not a privilege
for the lucky few who haveaccess to prestigious education,
capital and networks.
(01:01):
And now I am on a mission todemocratize access to high value
career advice by designingaffordable digital courses with
my YouTube channel and thispodcast right here, where we
learn together from ordinarypeople like you and me and how
they created extraordinarycareer success.
(01:21):
I hope this episode reminds youthat if they could do it, you
can do it too.
Now get ready to getsupercharged, let's go.
Hey, welcome back.
Welcome back.
So glad you decided to join ustoday.
My guest today is John Tarnoff,and he is coming to us all the
(01:42):
way from Los Angeles, california, and if you're anything like me
, you think LA and you thinkHollywood.
So, as a matter of fact, thereason I brought that up is
because John started his careerin the movies.
Yes, so he's done a variety ofroles, not necessarily on screen
, but all of the magic thathappens off screen.
(02:04):
Not necessarily on screen, butall of the magic that happens
off screen.
So, right from being a talentagent to working in film
production and if you'rewondering which films are these,
I'm going to name drop a coupleof these right now.
I saw on his bio Power of OneMorgan Freeman was in there Bill
and Ted's excellent adventurewith keanu reeves something that
(02:25):
I grew up with so silly made melaugh.
That's exactly what movies areall about.
And then he moved to dreamworksanimation we all know
dreamworks and developed toptalent over there that was
working on films like kung fuPanda and how to Train your
Dragon.
So I hope you're setting up andI hope I've got your attention.
(02:47):
So this is a very, veryinteresting person to talk to.
Now, what has John been up tosince 2012?
.
He has worked as a career coachand I think that, although all
of these reasons are superimpressive to bring John to the
show Because, as you know, dearlistener, I'm so picky about the
(03:08):
people I invite to the showAnother reason I wanted to bring
John on is because he hasopinions, just like I do, and is
not afraid to share hisopinions and sometimes go
against the grain if need be.
John's career spans almost 50years five zero 50 years and we
(03:30):
have so much to learn from him.
So excited for thisconversation, we're going to
learn so much from you, john.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Thank you so much, sonal, it's great to be here.
Thanks for that great intro.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
You're most welcome, john.
Let's get right into it, becauseyou have so much to teach us in
the decades that you have beenworking since the early 70s and
I have a greedy three-partquestion here so your early
career, your mid-career and thelater career just before you
(04:01):
left corporate and moved to thecoaching side, right?
So in this period of time, let'sstart with the early career,
because I my question is goingto be about roles that made a
huge, deliverable impression onyou and how you got hired into
those roles, because that's thename of the show, how I got
(04:22):
hired.
But want to start with thefirst part of your career where,
like I said, you were in themovies, right, and this is an
industry Hollywood I think anymovie industry is notorious for
handing out rejections like youknow, hot potatoes, like like
you hear a no, yeah, it's likeit's going out of style.
(04:42):
You just keep hearing no andyou know, I don't know how that
builds that resilience musclewhich I'm sure you learned a lot
.
But talk to us about, duringthis period of time, what waser
or late career, because thereare some key differentiators
that I think people who areexperienced will go oh, yeah,
(05:13):
yeah, yeah, that describes it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
People who are at the younger end of the spectrum
will be wondering about that.
Is that in the early career,what I want to talk about is how
you get a job In the mid-career.
I want to talk about is how youget a job In the mid-career.
I want to talk about how youpivot in your career, how you
transition Then in the latecareer if I'm any example and I
(05:40):
think this is really I'm seeingthis more and more with my
clients it's about how you hireyourself in late career.
We'll go back to the beginningor not quite the beginning and
really talk about this questionof resilience because, as you
know from looking at my TEDxtalk, I dine out on the idea and
(06:02):
back to being controversial andsaying things that make people
uncomfortable.
I dine out on the fact that inmy career in entertainment, I
was fired 39% of the time and Icame up with that number in the
TEDx talk kind of as a joke, andpeople laughed, but there was a
nervous laughter because I mean, who talks about this right?
(06:24):
Who talks about getting firedas if it's a metric or?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
something to be proud of, as if it's a badge of honor
.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, right, yes, but I mean this is 2012.
We're coming out of therecession.
I'm talking about how peoplelater in their careers
particularly boomers, but nowwe're talking about Gen X are at
an inflection point and at thattime a lot of people were
having trouble recovering fromthe recession and it was a big
(06:51):
wake-up call for a lot of peoplewho had lost a lot of their
house value, their 401k, theirretirement savings were vastly
reduced.
So the question that I wasposing was well, how do we
recover from this right,particularly with ageism, the
fact that people are livinglonger, people don't want to
(07:11):
retire, people can't afford toretire, I mean parenthetically.
If you think that you've savedenough for retirement and you're
in your 50s and you thinkyou're going to retire at 60 or
62, you've got a pretty goodchance of living through your
80s, maybe even into your 90s.
Can you afford 30 years ofretirement based on what you've
(07:34):
saved?
Today, I would say that mostpeople will say no, they've
examined the books.
They'll say no, no, no.
I need to keep working and, bythe way, working in a work that
(07:55):
you love or where you feeluseful keeps you more engaged,
more vital, more mentally acute,more engaged with people.
It's a kind of a growth mindsetapproach More young as well
right.
I don't want to use the wordyoung because I don't want to
get into the age thing, becausewhat's young, what's old, right?
Oh?
People say oh, you know, youlook, you look young for your
age.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
It's like no, you're right.
You're right.
That is horrible for your age,and especially when they do that
with women.
The gendered part, let me.
Let me rephrase that um, yeah,fresh, keeps you.
Yes, yes, right fresh right.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Fresh, vital, engaged , aware, curious, right?
All of these great qualitiesthat we associate with youth,
but that don't have to beexclusively the purview of youth
, right?
We want to keep those qualitiesgoing throughout our lives,
right?
Yeah, so off the soapbox for asecond.
(08:45):
So back to this question ofcareer stages.
What I've kind of come to theconclusion about in getting
hired, going into career andthrough that early stage,
applies to everyone and appliesto me and my clients today as it
did to me back in the day whichis I never used my resume to
(09:12):
get a job In a volatile,people-oriented, fast-moving
business culture, likeentertainment, it's all about
relationships.
No one gets a job because theysubmit a resume to an open
(09:32):
position.
It's all because of networking.
It's all because someone callsand gets you in.
That's the number one thingthat I learned early on in this
volatile business.
Then I would say the otherthing is to be really proactive
about what you want to do, whatyou can do and how to articulate
(09:58):
it and speak about it, to notbe afraid to engage with the
position, the hiring manager,the recruiter, and have a
negotiation to determine whetheryou are the right fit.
You don't want to, even at ayoung age.
You don't want to go in to ajob opportunity as a supplicant?
(10:21):
Please, please, hire me forthis job.
I'll be a good boy or girl.
No, you want to go in providingvalue.
I'll tell you a story aboutsomething that happened to me,
which was a bit of a surprise,but it was something I did out
of necessity.
It turned into a really goodexample of this.
(10:45):
I was working for a companythat had some as a production
executive supervising thedevelopment and the production
of feature films.
This is the 1980s.
The head of the company hadraised a lot of money.
He had set up offices overseas.
There was a company inAustralia that he had started.
(11:06):
He had started building astudio in Australia.
Things were not going well.
The films that we wereproducing were not successful at
the box office.
It was slowly going downhill.
So one day the guy who wasrunning the office in Australia
called me up and he said look,you guys are going out of
business.
You've got six months.
He said I want to hire you tocome work for me at the
(11:31):
Australian affiliate and whatwe're going to do is we're going
to get investors, we're goingto buy the company away from the
US company.
We're going to start our ownthing and I want you to run the
Los Angeles office.
I said, great, we did all ofthat.
Sure enough, we found aninvestor.
The investor came in, theybought the company, but they
(11:55):
weren't so sold on the idea ofhaving a Los Angeles office.
One of their associates, one ofthe colleagues of the CEO, was
in Los Angeles and he came tosee me to kind of check out the
office and what we were doing.
I showed him the films we wereworking on, blah, blah, blah.
He says to me look, they're notinto this idea of having the
(12:16):
office here.
He said nothing against you,you're a perfectly good guy, but
we're going to shut it down.
And I thought, oh great, youknow, I got to go out and look
for a job again and then I hadan idea.
I said to him would you be opento reading a proposal about the
business and about what thevalue of this office is and
(12:38):
taking it back to Australia?
And he said sure.
He said, can you get it to metomorrow morning?
I said yeah.
So I went home, I worked most ofthe night on this proposal and
this is, of course, you know,I'm on a real typewriter, right,
there's no word processors.
So I come back in, give himthis five 10-page report and he
(12:58):
looks through, says interesting,and he goes away and I wait.
And I wait for a day, nothing.
Second day he calls.
He says we like it.
He says, as a matter of fact,we like it so much that we're
going to keep the office open.
I'm going to come in and run it.
You're going to be theexecutive VP, I'm going to run
the business side and thedistribution side.
(13:18):
You're going to run theproduction side and we're going
to be the executive VP.
I'm going to run the businessside and the distribution side.
You're going to run theproduction side.
And we're going to make moviesin Australia.
We're going to blah, blah, blah.
So I saved that job and I builtmyself a runway for the next
five years and upgraded my roleand my profile because I took
(13:40):
the initiative to not take nofor an answer.
Yes, and I like this answerbecause not just the initiative
to not take no for an answer.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yes, and I like this answer because not just the
initiative and being proactive,but you're exactly exemplifying
what you talked about earlier.
Which people would say, yeah,but such a risky move, I would
say it's risky not to do it.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I agree.
You have nothing to lose,because the worst case is
they're letting you go.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
No, literally, you have nothing to lose except a
couple of hours of sleep atnight, right, and that bought
you five years of runway.
So brilliant, brilliant,brilliant.
I love this.
So I want to just recap thisfor the listener, because John's
going to give us these examplesof early, mid career and later
career, and it doesn't matterwhether we are talking about
(14:26):
hiring in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90sand beyond, because at the end
of the day, people are people,right.
We said we were John and I werechatting backstage.
There's a very famous expressionin French the more things
change, the more they remain thesame, right, we don't tend to
go that far from the pendulum.
So this is a great example.
(14:48):
I'm also excited to hear aboutthe mid-career and I'm
especially excited to hear aboutlater career, at 50 plus,
because I know you have alinkedin learning course on how
to get hired at 50 and incertain cultures, unfortunately,
there is ageism that exists andand you're seen as less
desirable, which is obviously,we all know, complete nonsense.
But how do we address that bias, et cetera.
(15:10):
So before we get there I'mgetting ahead of myself Talk to
us about the next role afteryou've got 15, 20 years in your
belt.
That was a difference maker.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So the mid-career is about the pivot, and I see this
developmentally, from apsychological point of view all
over the place.
After you get to a certainpoint, you've climbed the
mountain, personally,professionally, you've gotten
promoted, you've got someachievements under your belt,
you've got some experience,you've made some mistakes and
(15:44):
you have kind of something tosell at this point.
But developmentally, in midlife, you're starting to think, well
, what's it all about?
And you're starting to kind ofquestion now, from this vantage
point, what is your purpose,what is the meaning of life and
career?
Speaker 1 (16:03):
What am I doing?
Can you tell me when you hadthat, john, because I think a
lot of people can relate withwhat you're saying?
Can you tell us at what pointyou had these thoughts, like
your age?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
It really was 50.
It was plus or minus 50.
For me it kind of coincidedwith this occurrence
professionally around the lossof my startup.
So I had I had kind of taken asabbatical from entertainment in
the 90s when multimedia came inand cd-rom games were a thing
(16:39):
and uh, I thought, wow, whatanother great way to tell.
And I was a bit of a tech nerdand had been working with
computers since the mid-80s andI thought, oh, this will be fun,
this will be anotherinteresting opportunity.
And one thing led to another.
I met a guy.
(17:00):
We started a company together.
We built a technology andraised money in the bubble in
the mid to late 90s.
We had this company going.
We had a couple of bigcontracts.
This was a customerservice-oriented company using
artificial intelligence, whichwas very new.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Novel at the time.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
yes, this was very, very early and very rudimentary
from what we have today.
Nonetheless, we were makingtraction and then, in the spring
of 2001, the market crashed andeverything crashed with it,
including our company, and allof the investors that we had.
Raising additional money for uswent away, and the clients went
(17:44):
away.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And within about six months to a year, and there were
all sorts of crazy things goingon.
No, but there was also 9-11 afew months later.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And then there was 9-11.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
That didn't help.
And then there was 9-11, right.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So it was just a crazy time and I realized that I
was going to have to, we weregoing to have to shut this thing
down, and I didn't know what Iwanted to do and I felt like I
had not so much turned my backon entertainment, but I was no
longer as interested in thosejobs playing the politics and I
(18:18):
had kind of again, I hadn'tburned bridges but I really
hadn't.
But you moved on.
Yeah, exactly, I really kind ofmoved on and I didn't burned
bridges, but I really hadn't.
But you moved on.
Yeah, exactly, I really kind ofmoved on and I didn't know what
to do and I thought, okay, well, what are my options?
I thought I've got to dosomething.
I have to do a pattern.
Interrupt here, right, I can't.
What's the Einstein line about?
(18:40):
You can't solve a problem atthe same level at which it was
created.
So I thought I got to dosomething and it occurred to me
that I should go back to schooland I knew of a program this
program in spiritual psychology,a small graduate institution in
Santa Monica.
(19:00):
A number of people I knew hadbeen through the program, not to
become psychologists, butbecause it was a great break for
them to learn more aboutthemselves, learn more about how
to engage with other people,how to solve problems.
I thought this would be a greatopportunity for me to just get
clear and learn about myself,but I was going to have to raise
(19:26):
the money to do it, so I had totake another mortgage on the
house.
I knew I had about a nine-monthramp to figure this out
Somewhere along the line.
Get another job In October of2002, when I started this.
If you had told me nine monthsfrom now you're going to be
sitting at an office atDreamWorks Animation making
(19:47):
Hollywood money again, doingthis amazing job that you'd
never have done before, workingwith great people, I would have
said you were smoking something.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Never say never, never say never.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
It seems so unbelievable.
Yeah, but what I did was Istarted networking in a
different way, new things andhaving new subjects to talk
about and discovering new stuffand kind of on this growth spurt
, as it were.
Intellectually, I startedcoming across differently.
(20:34):
I didn't come across like, oh,here's a guy whose startup just
failed, he needs a job.
I was coming across as someonewho's kind of engaged with ideas
and asking questions andinterested in what was going on.
That was new, that wastechnological, about transitions
, about whatever.
And I started having meetingsand one of those meetings was
(20:56):
with a friend of mine who wasworking at DreamWorks and he
said wow, it sounds like you'vebeen doing some interesting
stuff and it sounds like yourcompany was interesting.
Would you ever think aboutjoining us at DreamWorks?
I said are you kidding thatwould.
It sounds like you've beendoing some interesting stuff and
it sounds like your company wasinteresting.
So would you ever think aboutjoining us at DreamWorks?
I said are you kidding?
That would be fantastic.
I said is there a job?
He said no, we're not lookingfor anybody right now.
I thought, oh great, he said,but let me start introducing you
(21:17):
to some of my colleagues overthere and let's start getting
some conversations going.
Let's start getting someconversations going.
Well, sure enough, it took sixmonths of conversations, but I
started to get traction throughthat process and the lesson here
for me, for the purposes of ourcall, is that in mid-career, to
(21:41):
a large extent at all stages inyour career, you get jobs
through conversations, notthrough applications.
So you want to get yourselfinto as many conversations as
possible where you can get toknow people, they can get to
know you, and magic happens.
And magic happened for me atDreamWorks yes, yes, and at a
(22:06):
certain point they realized thatI was a valuable piece of
talent that they needed tocreate a role for, turned out to
(22:29):
map to a number of skills thatI happen to have regarding
technology, adoption, movieproduction, team management and
development.
Yeah, and that brought me inand I was there for over six
years in this unique role.
That really was the best jobthat I had.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
I love the story so much.
There's so many lessons in here.
I do agree with you aboutapplications versus
conversations.
I'm not always sure it's either, or Sometimes it helps, oh, I
agree, but the later you are inyour career, it is definitely
the conversations that trumpapplications because of the
(23:11):
relationships and a lot of thosepositions are not even
advertised.
Classic example exhibit A isthat role, and they created an
exception for you.
People don't realize whenpeople fall in love.
They tend to help you.
They fall in love with you.
They're like I'm interestingguy.
However, the reason it doesn'twork with a lot of people is
(23:31):
because it takes time and yousaid six years, uh, six months.
I had a.
Yeah, I had a guy on my showwho talked about adobe and it
was his dream company.
It took him three years to getinto it and you need patience
and when it happened it was soorganic and people said lucky,
overnight success.
And they're like he doesn't.
They don't see all theschmoozing and all the
conversations I had to do, butyou know it it's.
(23:53):
It's hard work, so I love this.
Um, I love this idea that yousaid.
I never thought of it in thisway, although I, you know, I
have a couple of videos on myyoutube channel about if you're
not sure what to do, an MBA is agood idea, but the pattern
interrupt.
I like that.
You said pattern interrupt amaster's program, mba, and in
this case, a master's inspiritual psychology.
(24:15):
I mean, I love that.
That sounds so California rightnow, guilty, so this sounds so
juicy guilty.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
so, um, this sounds so juicy and um, so let me, let
me, let me just put a put alittle bit of a of a
specification on that program,because the the spiritual,
psychology aspect of it is abouttaking personal responsibility
for everything that goes on inyour life, right, that's in fact
perfect, because I had afollow-up question for you here.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I know this was a while ago, but for someone who's
listening and maybe tiny bitcurious about spiritual
psychology, is there oneparticular thing that you still
remember today in terms of thelessons learned?
A quick one.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Oh, I use this every day.
I use this every day in mycoaching program Tell us, tell
us which one you know.
And, and, and it starts withthis question of personal
responsibility and uh, and youknow, as time goes on in our
careers, we accumulate baggageand it's normal.
(25:21):
You know.
You go through life, you getdinged right, you get beaten up
a little bit, and whether it'sgetting fired, whether it's
making a bad decision, whetherit's having a toxic boss,
whether you have workplacerelationships that don't go well
, whether you make a mistake andfind yourself in a job that's
the wrong job for you, there isno straight line and we are kind
(25:47):
of taught to be ashamed ofourselves.
If there is no straight line,you know what's wrong with you.
My mother used to say why can'tyou hold a job in that business
?
You're always changing jobs.
Why can't you hold a job?
Because in an earlier era, inthe industrial era, the idea was
(26:07):
you were a cog in the machine.
You got hired at 20.
You worked for 40.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
And you were a lifer.
And you were a lifer.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yeah, you were a lifer and then they took care of
you, but of course that's allgone.
So the idea of spiritualpsychology, reallyate it on the
inside as a way of engaging moreproactively and successfully on
(26:47):
the outside.
I remember the person who wasmy supervisor at DreamWorks, who
was the COO, and I'll talkabout her in another instance in
a second at DreamWorks, who wasthe COO and I'll talk about her
in another instance in a second.
She in one meeting.
She said to me um, you seem tohave no ego because you're so
(27:07):
kind of cooperative and engaging.
I said, well, I wouldn't sayI'm a cooperative, uh.
And she would say, well, yeah,I guess, I guess you're not
necessarily cooperative.
I said, but but those questionsof ego seem kind of irrelevant
to me for me, that's thehonestly, that's the ultimate
compliment.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
If someone says you, you appear like you have no ego,
because I do think the ego canbe the enemy at times.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Well, the, the ego, can be the enemy, absolutely.
But uh, that, I think, goes tomy training, my psychology
training, because I'll tell youan interesting idea, an
interesting, interestingincident.
I haven't thought about this ina while.
There was a period of time whenI was, I think, early on in the
DreamWorks job where I had anopportunity to move back into
(27:54):
production and I had said tothem, going in, I don't want to
do production anymore, I want todo people stuff.
And there was this opportunityit was kind of like this shiny
carrot that was kind of dangledat me to go and produce this
film.
And so I started kind of veeringtowards that and all of a
(28:18):
sudden I noticed that thingswere different.
I would walk down the hall andpeople weren't looking at me
directly, they weren't talkingto me.
That's the way it felt, and Iwasn't feeling balanced around
this decision.
And the minute I thought, okay,I'm letting this go, I'm not
going to, I'm not going to, I'mgoing to pull my.
(28:39):
As we say in America, you know,you throw your hat in the ring,
you kind of declare yourcandidacy.
I pulled my hat back out of thering, I said I'm not interested
in this position anymore andeverything changed back again
and it was like oh hi, how areyou?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
It was like all of a sudden, the energy, energy came
back and I thought, oh, that'sinteresting, that's the universe
.
So many signals telling youdude, don't do it.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
That's the universe telling me.
I'm on the right track here.
I need to.
I need to follow this track sothis is another lesson for me,
for the people that I work with,for all of us about.
About, watch those signals,right?
Oh yeah, watch those signalsand don't be in denial about it.
Right, don't be afraid to kindof confront the reality of what
(29:28):
you see.
Anyway, some lessons fromspiritual psychology.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I love that.
And also, you know I wasn'tplanning to ask you this, john,
but this is so interestingbecause you worked with people,
you identified them, youdeveloped them, you retained
them.
Some of the top people thatwent on to make legendary stuff
that my kids have grown up withand love Kung Fu Panda, how to
(29:54):
Train your Dragon oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I see their credits.
I mean I watch animated moviesand I see their credits.
I I mean I watch animatedmovies and I see their credits,
and they're now producing anddirecting these movies.
I'm going oh, I hired them outof school yeah, they were babies
.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
So talk to us about how do you identify who's got
the it factor back them.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Well, the first thing that occurs to me is that these
are people who never say no,Whether it is their willingness
to take on an assignment.
Go the extra mile, not allowtheir boundaries to be overrun.
(30:47):
These are some of the qualities, I think, that make a leader,
Because, at the end of the day,these are leadership qualities
and I think the people who aresuccessful, even if they are not
in quote-unquote leadershiproles, they're exercising
leadership.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
That's great.
I have so many videos on myYouTube channel where I talk
about this stuff.
I said this is hard to teach.
It's easier to discern the hardtechnical skills, but if you
had everyone with the same levelof technical skills you know
animation and motion graphicsand all of that stuff being
equal, the attitude right, uh,is harder to train.
(31:29):
You either kind of see it, yougot it or you don't.
So this is so confirming, thisis so affirming, so thank you.
So I appreciate this.
And now talk to us about gettinghired in your 50s and beyond,
because you've been through thisjourney, right, and you've seen
this with your clients, andthere can be I hate to say this,
(31:50):
but there can be a little bitof a victim mindset.
You know it's so bitter, itdoes feel like you're, you know,
removed from contention becauseof literally a factor that you
cannot change, which is on yourpassport and your birth
(32:10):
certificate, and that victimhoodcan be very addictive as well.
You know, I hear things likeI'm in my 50s, I'm a white man,
so it's, you know, and I'm likeyou know, it'm a white man,
sonal, I'm like it's so hard towin with that attitude.
Help us with that, sorry, andhelp us with that, but also tell
us from your own example on.
I don't want to say how do youbeat ageism, but in the sense
(32:32):
that, how do you play the game?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, we got a lot to unpack here.
I just had this conversationyesterday with a prospective
client who he didn't want to sayit in the call, but I said to
him you're experiencing the oldwhite guy syndrome.
He's getting right to the finalinterviews and they're not
(32:54):
hiring him.
Yeah, and he is.
He's not being given thefeedback directly, but he is, in
some cases, able to navigatearound to find out who got the
job.
And so let's talk about thethird element and this idea of
firing yourself and a couple ofthings about that.
(33:17):
One is that I actually I didfire myself at DreamWorks, which
is crazy, but I had gotten tothe point and this is 2010,
where the programs that I hadstarted were in place, they were
running, and I went to the COOone day and I said look, this is
a crazy meeting.
(33:37):
But here's my question Is thereanything left for me to do
around here?
And she turned right red andshe said I'm going to answer the
question.
She said but first of all, Iwant you to know we love you.
You've done an amazing job andno one else could have done it
the way, and it was the perfect.
(33:58):
You were the perfect person forus at this time, she said, but
to answer your question,probably not yeah, wow, what
courage, john.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
What courage to ask the question because, you know
again, your instincts weretelling you dude, this is a
well-oiled machine, you've donea good job and it can run
without you I was starting tofeel like I was eating myself up
and I and I felt like I wassmiling less right I don't know
(34:30):
if that was true.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I know what you mean.
I know what you mean.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
There are times we can even like you know, soul
crushing can also be adescription sometimes.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
The job had been so good, it had been so much fun.
There's so much energy.
The people I worked with weregreat.
I had this fantastic team and Ithink when you have that kind
(35:06):
of a good experience, when itstarts to go south, it's such a
contrast that I mean, in my case, I thought I got to do
something about this and Ireally wanted to stay there.
I didn't want to fire myself.
I would have been happy to staythere.
And the COO said look, you knoweveryone around here.
She said go talk to everyoneand see.
You know what we're doing.
You know all the initiativesthat are going on.
See if there's something thatyou feel like you can plug
yourself into.
And the only thing that I couldhave done was because we were
(35:31):
doing overseas ventures in Indiaand China and I thought, well,
I could move to India or China,but I wasn't going to do that.
I was going to India or China,but I wasn't going to do that.
I was going to you know, pickmy, you know, pull my kid out of
high school and, you know, goto India or China.
So I realized that there wasn'tanything there and I kept
trying to come up with new ideasand and it.
I wanted to do more in theeducation space and it just, it
(35:54):
just wasn't the time.
You know, the company was goingin a different direction.
So we negotiated a verycivilized exit and unusual for
Hollywood.
There's a lot of bad endings inHollywood.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Yeah, but did you get this John from family or
friends?
Like dude, what did you do?
Like why did you like thiswasn't broken?
Like why did you have to go inand and you know what I mean
Like, right, sure.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Sure, I did get that from.
I did get that from some people.
But I explained, I said youknow, it's just, I kind of came
to the end of the rope here andI and I, I kind of I kind of
have done what I was called todo.
You know, the mission was doneand in a in a sense that's a lot
of how this business works.
(36:43):
When you go on a movie, you dothe project right, you're all
about the project, and when theproject's done, the project's
done right, and you go off andyou do a new project.
So in that sense it was similarto to the production cycle.
But at age 60 or so I thought,well, I'm getting out of here,
(37:03):
but I don't want to get anotherjob, I do not want to go work
for another company.
I am at the stage in my life andthis kind of goes to the third
career stage where I'm not goingto be a good employee.
I have too many ideas.
It's not that I'm set in myways, it's that I'm going to
(37:24):
want to do it kind of my way andI'm not going to just lie down
and take orders.
So either I'm running a show orI'm doing my own thing and I
thought, well, I've never reallydone my own thing and I've
never really done my own thingin this area because I was very
fired up about education andtraining and development and all
(37:45):
of the stuff that led to mycareer coaching practice.
I wasn't sure that that's whatI was going to do at that time,
but this was the direction thatI wanted to go in, and I had
built up this grounding atDreamWorks in education and
wound up, actually, right out ofDreamWorks, being called by one
of the universities that wewere working with to hire kids
(38:08):
into entry-level programs andthey said, well, we have a new
program in LA, we'd like you tocome in and help us run that.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
And I did that for 10 years.
They found you.
They found you out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Well, no, they knew me, I'd been working with them.
So again, it was relationships,right, yeah, they remembered
you.
I built relationships with 40different universities over the
years that I'd been atDreamWorks doing these
entry-level hiring programs.
So they came to me and theysaid hey, we see you're leaving.
Do you want to talk to us aboutcoming to work with us in this
(38:39):
program?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
And it was a it was a half time.
How did they know, sorry?
How did they know you wereleaving?
Because you know LinkedIn andyou know the feed.
It wasn't the same as it istoday, so you did something to
stay.
Well, I announced it.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
I announced it.
I said I'm leaving.
I'm leaving to go off and do myown consulting practice.
You sent like an email no or Idon't think I sent a blanket
announcement like a birthannouncement or something,
personalized it, but I letpeople know Good, good, right,
(39:13):
it was really important that itbe my decision Right, even
though it was kind of, you know,was half my decision, half
their decision.
We just came to a parting ofthe ways.
It was different.
They were very generous aboutit.
I had my final meeting withJeffrey Katzenberg, who was the
(39:34):
CEO, legendary guy.
He said so what can I do foryou?
You know, is there something Ican do for you on your way out?
I said, yeah, you can write mea recommendation.
And he said, sure, of course.
So he said, why don't you writethe first draft?
Perfect Right, and that's justlike to insert that If you walk
(39:57):
out with your head high, toinsert that if you walk out with
your head high, even if theyfire you, you want to walk out
with your head high because youdon't want to burn the bridge,
you want to turn that to youradvantage.
(40:24):
So stop and this is the egothing again stop thinking about
how a victim, what a victim youare and why you got fired and
someone else didn't get fired,and how unfair it is and how the
world is terrible, and think,okay, how can I turn this into
an advantage?
How can I do the best with thissituation?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And to the question of ageismnow.
And why?
Why ageism?
And what do we do about ageism?
Well, we're not going to getanywhere by complaining about it
.
We have to circumvent it.
(40:49):
I think this goes to picking upfrom that 50-year-old mid-career
question about meaning andpurpose and now, in late career
mid to late career reallyputting that into the forefront.
Because if you can articulatethe value that you deliver not
the roles that you perform orthe tasks that you do, but the
real value that you deliver, theproduct, really, the outcome,
(41:14):
the transformation that youdeliver through your work, and
you can articulate this in a waythat really establishes that
value, then people don't carehow old you are.
They want that value.
You have to sell it.
You have to position it for thecustomer, for the client, for
(41:36):
the employer.
It's not about well, here's whatI do, here's what I can do,
here's what I deliver for you, Ican do anything.
It's like no, here's what youneed.
What if we could create thisresult for you.
Talk about that strategy.
Don't give away your secretsauce, but talk about that
(41:58):
strategy.
Talk about that outcome.
Create this in theirimagination, this vision of what
it would be like if you wereworking for them.
And no matter what you dowhether you are going for a
full-time position or aconsultancy or a part-time
position always take theattitude of a consultant
(42:20):
delivering value to a client.
Never think of yourself as anemployee looking for direction
from a supervisor.
It's a key mindset difference.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yes, very much, very much.
The key mindset difference yes,very much, very much.
I talk about that as well.
And also the consultant slashCEO of your career as opposed to
an order taker.
We're more than that.
We're all more than that.
I love this.
I also one thing I want tocredit you for and we talked
about this offline it wasrefreshing to see your LinkedIn
(42:53):
profile, john, because, first ofall, I think everybody should
read the about section.
It's written so well.
It takes me, you know.
It's like you're holding ourhand and you're taking us down a
journey to the story and you dowhat a lot of gurus I'm going
(43:13):
to put this in air code careergurus, especially in the US they
advise us not to do, and thatis.
You have mentioned yourgraduation year.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
I love it.
I have mentioned it as well,and many people say do not, and
ageism bias, but you're like, Idon't care, I'm going to do it
because eventually people aregonna find out who cares.
Exactly now.
In that vein, I want to stayhere for a minute and appeal to
the opinionated john, which wehave all started to enjoy a lot,
(43:45):
which is honestly a breath offresh air.
I want to highlight a post thatyou published late last year
and I highly recommend to ourlistener to check it out.
It's in John's featured section.
It's very hard to miss it, andin this post you talked about
the green open to work banner.
You took a lot of heat on thatpost, john.
(44:07):
Oh my gosh, the comment sectionis so brutal and I want to know
, since you have published thispost, what is your latest
position on the open to workbanner.
You know, sometimes when wepublish something, you know,
like Adam Grant says, thinkagain.
You're like we're allowed toslightly, you know, change our
(44:30):
mind or adapt our position onthe situation.
And the part two is I also wantto know about the comment
section because, until andunless the listener doesn't read
them.
I mean you were so much underattack and some of the attacks
were personal, like it was hardto read and you have not only
(44:51):
displayed them, not only haveyou not blocked those people,
but it's in your featuredsection.
So talk about being batteredand bruised.
So this is a two-parter yourposition on the open to a green
banner and life in the commentsection trolls.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
So for me, just the position on the green banner
hasn't really changed that much.
Position on the green bannerhasn't really changed that much.
The green banner is kind of alazy job seeker's way of
pursuing a job.
If you think that putting thatopen to work badge on your
(45:26):
profile picture is going to getyou a job and you can just kind
of sit back and pray and peoplewill notice and people will see
you're a good guy, good gal, youwant to be hired, please hire
me.
I'd need to work harder.
(45:52):
And first of all, everyone onLinkedIn 100% of people who are
on LinkedIn are open to work.
It's why we're on LinkedIn bydefault.
Yes, right.
So that's a kind of a coylittle way that we can kind of
(46:15):
raise our little hand and goplease hire me.
You know that bugs me, right?
Because I think it's a verybrutal hiring marketplace out
there.
People are getting fired,people are working in toxic
workplaces.
We're still talking about returnto work and hybrid work.
(46:38):
What is it now that one of theFANG companies I don't know if
it's Microsoft that if you areout of the office more than one
day or two days a week, you areineligible for promotion?
Oh my gosh, yeah, right, sowe're seeing all sorts of bias
(47:01):
and crazy behavior going on frommanagement still, and you need
to be more proactive about it,and that was my message is it's
just not gonna serve you.
You know if and that was mymessage is it's just not going
to serve you.
You know, if you think thatthis is going to do it and
you're going to just be waitingfor the email to hit your inbox,
it's not going to happen.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
No, I understand.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
That's a fair point and that was my point.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah, if it's done.
First of all, I don't thinkpeople who gave such hate in the
comments, I don't think theyactually read Well they didn't
read the blog post, right.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
They didn't read the article, right, because the blog
post is really much more about.
Okay, don't stop here.
Here's what you do, right?
Here's how to be more proactiveabout it.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
The lazy part I've understood.
If that is all you do and youpray, it's not enough.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's completely fair and I just that's
completely fair help someone gettheir job and it basically is a
networking style post, adefault LinkedIn post which says
please refer me to if you hearof anything I'm interested in a
job, and then it says so-and-sois interested in this, this and
(48:27):
this, and it's similar.
My response to that is similarto the open to work badge,
because you can't go out withthe default wording that
LinkedIn gives you.
You have to amplify that and bespecific about the work you're
looking for, the kinds ofcompanies you want to work at.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
A hundred percent.
I wouldn't count on the AI inthe message section.
Oh my God, like you know,they'll be like hey, oh, john,
it's been some time.
How are you doing?
You know those templates thatAI suggests.
They're terrible.
So we have to apply our ownsort of initiative and
(49:07):
intelligence.
No, so that's a very good point.
Doing that alone is not enough,but doing that in conjunction
with something else.
We need a strategy, right,first of all.
Second of all, the people whohad a big problem with your post
.
They say things like I look forpeople, I proactively look for
people who have the open to workbanner because they think that
they're immediately available.
They are hungry.
I totally get that.
(49:28):
I get that and I love that.
I love that they are being openabout it.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Right?
Well, they are few and farbetween.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
They are few and far between Exactly what.
They don't understand all therecruiters that the rest of us,
when we talk to them.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
I talk to them, you talk to them understand that
someone's value is not dependentupon whether they are currently
employed.
An employer, however, wants theperson who is employed the
employer does not want to dealwith the question of why did
(50:15):
they get let go from their priorposition?
Blah, blah, blah.
Because that employer, thathiring manager supervisor, is
going to say where did you hirethat person from?
Where were they last?
Speaker 1 (50:27):
And that is a problem ?
No, that is a problem.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Well, they were let go from.
You hired someone who wasunemployed.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Now the thing is ultimatelythere is a problem.
This is the problem, this isthe way of thinking which is
problematic.
That is the source, right, thatis the source.
So we're beating up the wrongsort of beast here.
And secondly, they're the guyswho pay the bill, right?
They're the ones who pay theexecutive, recruiters, et cetera
.
Exactly, is it fair?
(50:54):
No, of course not, but I'm apragmatist and I think you are
as well.
It's not about what's fair.
It's not about doing the rightthing A lot of those people talk
about.
Either they talk about doingthe right thing because it's a
cruel market, or they talk aboutthis is how I do it, that, or
they talk about this is how I doit, that virtue sort of
signaling.
Both are true.
The third point is there is abig majority of people who are
(51:28):
not actively logged on toLinkedIn 14 hours a day and make
these kind of messages.
Those are people in their ownbubbles who are not living on
LinkedIn, who want someone whoalready works.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
I had plenty of recruiters reach out to me on
that post and say you're right.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
But they will not say .
That's the whole point.
I have a problem.
They will not say it publicly.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Oh, but if you look on that thread and I don't want
to kind of get back into it, itwas so long ago but there are
plenty of people on that threadwho were positive about it and
said no, I get that, but a lotof them will not say it publicly
.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
but they don't want to get attacked.
They don't want to get attacked.
You took it for the team.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
I'll tell you, and when I first saw the flaming
going on I felt really dejected.
Because I'm a people pleaser, Iwant you know.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
I talk about.
I think you wouldn't be humanif you didn't get dejected.
Speaker 2 (52:24):
Right.
I mean, I wanted to be a bit ofa scold on a certain level.
Yeah, I wanted to kind ofencourage people to do better.
That was the idea and that kindof that's what gets me riled up
.
But then I thought, after aboutan hour of feeling like, oh
shit, I'm going to really, youknow, people don't like me and
whatever, I'm in trouble now Ithought no, no, no, no, no, no,
(52:47):
no.
This is good, this is good.
I've generated some controversy.
I really don't care about thesepeople.
They are.
They are defensive becausethey've got something that's
going on with them.
Spiritual psychology again.
Right, this is their problem.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
And it's interesting because they said the opposite.
They said, ah, but this guy,why is he saying this?
Because he's peddling, you know, career services and resumes,
and I was know what.
Speaker 2 (53:12):
here's the thing that .
Here's the thing, not so muchabout the uh, the, the uh, open
to work badge, but what gotpeople really, really upset was
when I said if you areunemployed, you want to make the
first bullet on your experience.
Section a consult, consultancy.
Right, you want to portrayyourself as someone who is not
(53:37):
unemployed.
You are continually working andopen to consulting work in your
field.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
And some of the best LinkedIn trainers have made the
same point on my LinkedIn livesessions.
For the reason, exactly for thereason that LinkedIn penalizes
you.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
If you are the worst comments I got were people who
didn't like that.
They said you're telling peopleto lie, Lie, yeah, Right.
A consultant just someone wholoses their job is not a
consultant, right.
A consultant is someone who isthis and this and this and
you're telling people this isgarbage, yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Last thing I'm going to say is when any of those
people, if they were ever tolose their job, they would
probably put the consultant'stitle as well.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
Well, I hope they would I hope they would Full
circle.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
But thank you, john, really appreciate the frankness
here in this conversation.
And there's one particularquestion I ask all my guests and
I want to hear from you.
And there's one particularquestion I ask all my guests and
I want to hear from you.
When you look back on thisillustrious decades-long career
I think 50, almost 50 or 50-plusyears is there one standout
(54:45):
defining moment thatsupercharged your career and
helped you to move closer toyour current success?
Speaker 2 (54:52):
I saw that question and I had an answer, but another
answer just occurred to me, andit's a moment, it's literally a
single moment, where the firstfilm that I got to produce on my
own 1986, a film that bombed,by the way, a little
(55:16):
action-adventure thriller movie,but we were filming one night
it was a dance hall scene andthe good guy is being chased
through this dance club by thebad guy and interrupts the band
and runs through the band andknocks the band over and goes
(55:39):
offstage 500 extras, some clubin Hollywood, some big cavernous
club in Hollywood, and I wasstanding I was actually standing
on the bar in the one corner asall this was going on and I
thought, wow, this is somethingthat started inside my head.
(56:01):
I woke up one morning with anidea for a movie and here we are
, yeah, two years later, andwe're making it.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
And I thought, wow, that is, that's just a powerful
feeling to have accomplishedthat.
And I kind of say that becauseI want people to feel like your
ideas matter and you canmanifest your ideas.
It may not be easy to do.
(56:30):
It may not be easy to do, itmay not happen fast, but if you
set a clear intention and engagewith your community to support
you, enlist that support mostthings are possible yeah, well,
definitely, thoughts becomethings.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
I got so many goosebumps listening to this
story because, yeah, it's like,I think of it as the OBE I call
it OBE outer body experiences.
It's like, literally, you'relooking at, you know, john,
there's a big John looking atthe I don't want to say little
John, but you know looking andthen you're like dude, what are
we doing here?
(57:11):
Right, how did this happen?
How did this happen?
And you're like dude, yeah,what are we doing here?
Right, how did this happen?
How did this happen?
And you're talking about an ideain 1984 and he made it into a
movie in 1986.
What happens to the movie?
That's besides, the point.
That's and you had so manysuccesses so it doesn't matter,
it rounds off.
But here we are talking aboutit in 2024, 40 years.
How awesome is that?
Amazing, amazing, john.
(57:31):
So what is the best way?
Cause you have a lot of stuffgoing on.
You've got a podcast, you'vegot a book, you've got a TEDx,
you've got a very activepresence on LinkedIn, as we just
talked about.
So what is the best way forpeople to learn more about you
and your work?
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Well, absolutely Connect with me on LinkedIn.
I'm the only John Tarnoff onLinkedIn, so can find me there
If you're interested in gettingstarted on this career process.
I want to encourage you tostart with this concept of the
ikigai, the Japanese notion oflife's purpose.
(58:08):
It is interpreted in the Westas really having to do with four
questions, and it isinterpreted in the West as
really having to do with fourquestions what do you love to do
?
What are you good at?
What does your world need?
The classic question is whatdoes the world need?
That's too much.
What does your world need, whatdoes your business need, your
industry, your community, andwhat can you get paid for?
At the intersection of thosefour questions is the beginning
(58:30):
of your career transition,career reinvention,
reimagination, and there is anexercise worksheet that you can
download from my site.
So it's johntarnoffcom slash.
Four questions the number.
Four questions, no spaces.
Speaker 1 (58:46):
I will make sure that link is in the show notes so
people can take advantage.
So, John, this has been such adelight.
Thank you so much for your time, your generosity, your candor
today, and we wish you continuedsuccess with everything you
venture into.
Speaker 2 (59:03):
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
Hey there, thank you for taking the time to listen to
today's show.
If you loved it, please doleave me a review on Apple
Podcasts.
I search high and low to bringyou the very best guests, and
I'm so proud to bring you theirstories and game-changing career
lessons.
The best compliment that youcould ever give me is taking a
(59:31):
screenshot of today's episodeand sharing it with your
LinkedIn network and tagging meat Sonal Behl S-O-N-A-L-B-A-H-L.
All right, I look forward tospending time together on the
next episode of the how I GotHired podcast.
Take care of yourself and byefor now.
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