Join us for an insightful conversation with the esteemed Gianpiero Petriglieri, fondly known as GP, as he shares his remarkable journey from a doctor in psychiatry to a leading figure in executive education. GP, a Professor of Organizational Behavior at INSEAD, unravels his career transitions with humility and captivating storytelling. His transformation highlights the unexpected links between mental health and workplace dynamics, offering listeners a perspective on how leadership shapes our professional environments and our sense of belonging.
Throughout our discussion, GP and I reflect on the universal quest for meaning in our work lives, emphasizing the significance of shaping our environments and personal narratives. We delve into the serendipitous nature of career paths, the role of influential mentors, and the courage needed to break away from conventional career expectations. GP's journey, from training at the Tavistock Institute to teaching at prestigious institutions, is a testament to embracing vulnerability and the power of community support in finding one's niche.
The episode wraps up with a thoughtful exploration of what constitutes a "dream career," challenging the notion by acknowledging every job's inherent challenges. Through anecdotes, GP and I discuss the value of taking risks and the importance of emotional and social resources in navigating unique career paths. Whether you're considering a career pivot or seeking a sense of agency in your current role, this episode offers a rich tapestry of insights and stories that encourage embracing the unexpected and finding fulfillment in your professional journey.
Learn more about GP:
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gpetriglieri/
On the INSEAD Website: https://www.insead.edu/faculty/gianpiero-petriglieri
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sonal (00:05):
Hey there, welcome to the how I Got Hired podcast.
I'm your host, sonal Bahl,former HR director, founder of
Supercharge and corporatesurvivor of an epic career
roller coaster that started outin India, zipped through South
America and landed in Europe,and it's been such a wild ride
navigating visa, sponsorships,layoffs, recessions, all while
(00:28):
working in Spanish and French,which I learned on the fly
somehow, raising two kidssomehow, and sometimes just
trying to remember where Iparked my car.
Now, as a career strategist, Ibelieve a fulfilling career
isn't just for those with IvyLeague degrees or fancy
connections.
(00:49):
No, it's a right we all deserve.
That's why I'm here to bringyou top tier career advice
through coaching courses andthis very podcast where we meet
ordinary people like you and mewho share extraordinary stories
of career success, to prove thatif they can do it, you can do
(01:10):
it too.
So buckle up and get ready toget supercharged.
Hey, welcome back.
Today I have GianpieroPetriglieri on the show, so what
I'm going to do is firstintroduce him and then share the
backstory and, fair warning,this is going to get quite
(01:31):
personal.
So Gianpiero, or GP, isProfessor of Organizational
Behavior at INSEAD, which hasthe second best MBA program in
the world, by the way, where hedirects the Management
Acceleration Program, which isthe school's flagship executive
program for emerging leaders.
He has also served in the pastas vice chair of the World
(01:59):
Economic Forum on new models ofleadership and also taught at
HBS, harvard Business School andIMD Switzerland and IMD
Switzerland.
So, before executive education,gp taught OB1, organizational
Behavior 1 core course in theINSEAD MBA for five years, where
he won the student'sOutstanding Teacher Award and
Dean's Commendation for TeachingExcellence.
So this is where I first camein contact with GP.
(02:20):
He was my OB1 professor duringthe MBA program back in 2008.
Now I've been open about this inthe past the fact that the one
year that I pursued this MBA washard.
It was freaking hard.
Okay, I struggled a lot, bothacademically and even physically
(02:41):
, because I was time poor.
I had a newborn baby that I wasstill nursing and it was a lot,
and I completely felt like afish out of water.
The one respite, however, thatI used to look forward to during
the first two months of corecourses was GP's class.
He somehow made me, and so manyof us, feel smart, confident,
(03:07):
and he made me feel like Ibelonged, something that I used
to question every single day,and I still remember when his
class wrapped up and he was doneright, it was the end of the
trimester.
It was like, I think, the lastThursday of October 2008.
Everyone went to the front ofthe class to shake his hand and
(03:27):
thank him, and so did I, andwhen my turn came, to my horror,
I felt tears rolling out of myeyes and I started sobbing like
a baby.
This is very unlike me, and now, looking back, I realized I
must have been so hormonal, butalso I was really, really sad.
(03:51):
I have followed GP's careersince then and, oh my gosh, this
conversation is so good, sogood.
You've got to understand this.
Gp is a rock star, so when he'sgiving a talk I want you to
visualize this.
It is hard to find forgetsitting like a seat.
It's hard to find standing room.
(04:11):
So to hear him speak withhumility with me on this show,
where we talked about careerpivots, like moving from
medicine to education, and howhe got hired at NCI which is a
story in itself, by the way, itwas full of like.
It sounded like a completeroller coaster to me.
(04:31):
This is such a treat, honestly,and this is a slightly longer
episode, so I am going to bedividing it into two parts.
Okay, I'm done gushing, let'sget started with part one.
Parts Okay, I'm done gushing,let's get started with part one.
Oh my god, the excitement ispalpable.
You can detect it in my voice,and my guest is trying not to
(04:55):
laugh.
So I have Giapiero here on theshow.
Giapiero, welcome to how I GotHired.
GP (05:05):
Great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
So now I've been waiting.
I mean, I follow the show allthe time and I know I have to
beg to be brought in, but I'mglad you said yes finally.
Sonal (05:15):
Oh my gosh, the pleasure is all mine.
So GP, GP, can we say GP?
GP (05:19):
We go, of course we do GP.
Sonal (05:22):
I'm let's.
I'm sounding like julie andrewsand sound of music.
Let's start at the verybeginning, because I love
retracing careers, especiallynow that you have the gift of
time and hindsight right.
So you were like the seriousmedicine guy in the 1990s and
you were studying medicine andand, according to your LinkedIn
(05:44):
profile, which I kind of stalkeda lot the last few days, you
branched out specifically intopsychiatry and psychotherapy.
I love learning about like themotivations behind these moves,
because some of us arereinventing our careers or some
of us are going through thisjourney with our kids.
So I would love to know yourmotivations motivations I have a
(06:05):
two-parter here behind thesemoves and the second part is
that kid I want to say kidbecause we're kids in our 20s
still right, if that we stillhave gp.
I still are, if that gp in his20s somewhere yeah, exactly, if
he could see you today, whatwould he say to you?
GP (06:25):
so yeah, um, that kid was, would have been a bit arrogant
and insecure, which two thingsusually go together.
So he probably would have madesome joke, saying something like
oh, you know, you stayed, youstayed, you're fairly fit for an
old man, or something like that.
(06:47):
And but he would have also said, wow, I couldn't even imagine
that a life of this would exist,and certainly would exist for
me, exist and certainly wouldexist for me.
And so you'll be probably alittle bit puzzled, impressed
(07:07):
and, most of all, relieved,honestly, most of all relieved.
All that worrying about am Igoing to be okay, what's going
to happen and when is it goingto happen.
You know all that angst, thatintense angst that you know, you
and I know we work with peoplewho go through it, but, god, I
(07:28):
felt it all.
I felt it all.
Sonal (07:31):
Can we stay here?
Can you tell us more about that, because I think a lot of us
can relate with it, but not alot of us talk about it.
Can you tell?
GP (07:43):
us more about that angst.
Was it self-inflicted?
Coming from outside, what washappening?
I think the angst has alwaysbeen a part of who I am.
I mean, long before I was a kid, that was very, very reflective
and very sensitive.
These days we have names andlabels for these things, but I
thought a lot from a very earlyage about things like I remember
sitting in my bed thinkingwould it be better to be a rock,
(08:06):
like that lasts a long time butdoesn't feel anything, or to be
a person where you have allthese feelings and experiences
and you can move around, butthen you don't last very long
and then you die.
And so there was thisexistential part of me.
I mean, I have thoughts aboutwhere it comes from, but they're
(08:26):
they go into very personal, youknow, but just this sense of
precariousness and, um, and Ihad ambition and uh, you know,
that combination of ambition andprecariousness which,
ironically, has become, you know, the center of pretty much
everything I do, is somethingthat I didn't.
(08:46):
You know me, I'm not one ofthose academics that kind of
looks at the world at arm'slength, trying to be objective,
and you know, I study and teachstuff that I've experienced.
And so that combination ofambition, ambition for myself,
ambition to do something good,and precariousness and sense of.
(09:08):
You know, you have lots ofdreams and lots of fears and and
(09:29):
so you know, I would feel, Ithink the GP at 20, especially
the GP at 24 to 28, which iswhen I was going through my
psychiatric training, and it wasperhaps one of the most
difficult times I had.
(09:50):
It was really the beginning ofmy reorientation towards what I
do now.
I think the GP at that timewould be immensely relieved that
I have found my place, that Ifound my, as we say in France,
my métier and I have a family,and that I have a life in which
(10:15):
I can live inside my own skinand think my own thought and be
with my people and, um, oh mygosh, I've got goosebumps.
Sonal (10:25):
I've got goosebumps.
Listening to you all.
GP (10:28):
That felt like um, all that felt like a really long shot.
I I felt like a misfit.
I always felt like a misfit.
I'm a big friend of the misfits.
I now realize being a misfit isgood for you, um, but it's not
fun sometimes.
No, it's not fun sometimes yeahyou know when you look
(10:50):
when you look back, it's greatand I'm not gonna romanticize it
.
I'm not gonna romanticize theangst, the anxiety, and want to
do something different.
But what if I do somethingdifferent?
What happens?
And the worry, the worry myparents had, like, oh, you know,
you're done all this stuff andnow you're doing this other
thing, and what is that about?
And and the worries I had, youknow that I projected onto
(11:12):
everyone else yeah, my gosh.
Sonal (11:14):
Um, yeah, it sounds.
When you said I wonder whatit's like to be a rock, I
thought you were gonna say star,rock, star.
But you were really serious acliff.
GP (11:28):
I know I grew up.
I grew up between the volcanoand the sea and that place,
between this kind of veryuncontrollable, beautiful
elemental forces of nature.
(11:48):
You know, so you're talkingmetaphorically and figuratively.
Figuratively I mean I grew up insicily, between etna and the
sea, literally.
Wow, you know, and I could youknow, from the, from the balcony
of my parents' home, you cansee both and, uh, and I could
see both and, so and, and thesea is pretty, it's not.
(12:11):
Beach is very ragged, you know.
So I would, you know, see thesecliffs hit by the waves.
And there was something,metaphorically, there was
something admirable for me, whowas so insecure and I was so
sensitive about what everyonethought and what everyone said,
to see a cliff that's hit bythese massive waves and doesn't
move.
And and yet I, even as a child,I realized that's really
(12:36):
there's something wrong there,which is you're stuck, you know,
and I think I was trying torescue the value of my
sensitivity, of my, you know,and trying to turn emotionality
into mobility, which is, youknow, sort of, I think, a
(12:56):
lifelong journey for me but also, I think, for many other people
.
But anyway, you know, youwanted kind of I think I'm
giving you the existential kindof intrapersonal thing, but the
truth is I loved medicine, Iadored medicine and I'm still a
clinician at heart.
Nothing has changed, you know,the way of thinking, the way of
(13:17):
understanding.
You know, medicine seems soscientific but it's also so
poetic, is so intuitive, andwhat it gave me was a
scaffolding to kind of manage myintuition and a discipline a
discipline to think about yourintuition and prove them and
(13:39):
disprove them, and alwaysremember that you have theories,
that you have knowledge, butthen there's a body in front of
you and and and a professionalis always caught in the space
between a body of theory and thebody of an actual person.
Um, and I, and all that Ilearned in in medical school.
(13:59):
Then I went into psychiatrybecause I thought I would push
the poetics and and honestly, II did not enjoy that.
I was, that was my most unhappytime, and why?
Sonal (14:11):
why is that?
GP (14:12):
because I thought it was, um , I had gone in as many people
do you know, I mean, I guessthis is really your field.
I went in with an idealizedversion of what psychiatry was.
I thought it would be like allpsychoanalytic, psychotherapy,
psychology, and it was hyperbiological and very
(14:35):
deterministic, and so it wasreally quite disjointed from
from sort of my dreams.
And so I did a lot of thatstuff on the side.
I was training in psychotherapyor doing a lot of workshop, I
was doing my own um, I was doingmy own work and uh, and all
that.
And of course, in in Italy therewas this um, there's this big
(14:58):
traditional I call systemicpsychotherapy, trying to
understand how the way peoplefeel, uh, is not just about what
happens inside them but it'sabout what happens around them.
And one of the things that Ibecame interested in is we were
speaking a lot in my trainingabout, um, families of origin,
(15:18):
right, and then romanticrelationships and all the kind
of stuff, and it seemed to methat we weren't talking about
work, um, and it was obviousthat I saw lots of people that,
actually, whose mental healthdeteriorated dramatically
(15:39):
because of what was happening atwork, and I also saw people
that seemed to struggle andsuddenly they had a good spell
at work.
And I also saw people that seemto struggle and suddenly they
had a good spell at work andtheir mental health increase.
And so you know, I guess I'mnot sure if you're going to ask
me.
People ask me all the time whydid you switch?
Why did you because it lookssuch a dramatic career change?
Sonal (16:00):
it does, it does.
I just want you to pause for asec because I don't want to
quickly double click on onething.
You're such a a poet here, gp.
I wanted to.
This was the.
I loved medicine.
It was the scaffolding tomanage my thinking.
That is so beautiful and sopoetic.
I'm going to steal that and Ithink my listeners are going to
steal that as well.
That is such a nice way ofdescribing either a body of work
(16:21):
, thing you thought, practice,whatever the scaffolding, it
just so visual.
You know the way you, the wayyou explained it.
So, um, yes, indeed, um, it wasgoing to be my next question
because you, um, you know, afteruh, pursuing, you said, in your
mid to late 20s, psychiatry,you worked at imd, copenhagen
(16:42):
business school and then ITSEAD,and I want to hear more about
this switch that you made, which, to the outside world, you know
, people must have had opinions,right, I'm sure, your family,
your friends and tell us whatwas going on in your head.
GP (16:57):
So let's start with the hindsight and then we do it
progressively.
Okay, so in hindsight you knowI always make the joke.
Maybe you've heard me make itlike oh, you know I, you know I,
I I found it was so difficultto move from a psychiatric
hospital to a business school.
Ha ha, ha, um, but the truth isI don't never feel I switched.
I never feel I switched.
(17:19):
Look, I was interested.
Then I became interested in mytraining, in the idea that work
can basically rip us apart or itcan hold us together and make
us grow.
And I'm still at it.
Yes, I'm still trying tounderstand how people break or
(17:42):
become whole at work, in theworkplace.
And the reason why I'm sointerested in leadership is
because I think leadership is akey factor in making workplaces
more whole or more fragmenting.
And I also think leadership isa word people use for their
aspiration to live in the worldin a certain way, A way in which
(18:06):
we are not just objects ofsystems but we are agents in
systems.
We are not just products but weare shapers of the world around
us.
And I think that's a fundamentalpsychological need, the sense
that think.
(18:28):
That's a fundamentalpsychological need, the sense
that we might not be entirelyable to.
We're not omnipotent, we can'tcompletely determine our life
and shape our surroundings butat least write a few sentences
in our story, have a saying whathappens around us, that that
ability to determine our journey, to build the space we live in,
um which I think we in businesswe call leadership.
(18:51):
But it's a much morefundamental psychological
impulse.
So I was always interested inthat and maybe I was interested
in that for myself, you know,because I was finding a while.
I think I was.
You know.
I said you're making me think,you know, because I was finding
a way.
I think I was you know, I saidyou're making me think you know
what.
it's funny.
You make me realize you know,there's two things.
I study how people find theirway as they move around and now
(19:14):
they kind of find a place, finda home, and I think it's because
I was trying to find my way, Iwas trying to find a home and it
took a long time and, yes,people.
So you know, first of all, Imean I accept to come on your
podcast, okay, because it's you,but I generally refuse to speak
about careers because I feelI'm the last person I can give
(19:36):
advice to anyone.
I have no, I have no, I have nocareer plan.
I freaked out for the most ofthe time I'm still kind of, you
know, teetering on the edge, andand you know these people that
say, well, you know, in fiveyears I never had that.
So here's what happened.
I have one skill I am good atattaching to people that I find
(20:06):
have something that can open adoor, and I don't mean
instrumentally, I meanintellectually, I mean
emotionally.
So here's what happens I'mdoing some psychiatric training
and one of my sort ofpsychotherapy.
The people I've met doingpsychotherapy you know
supervisors on the side isstarting to work at IMD.
So he says oh, you know,there's a colleague of mine
(20:27):
there.
His name was George Colerison,amazing, amazing professor and a
clinical psychologist andprofessor at IMD.
At the time he wasn't yet buthe was doing, he was doing his
transition.
And so it's like oh, you know,there's someone that is a
colleague of mine who wasactually training in
psychoanalysis and he's lookingfor clinicians because he was,
you know, late 90s, early 2000he was the explosion of coaching
(20:47):
and so they were like they werelooking for some people who had
a clinical background so thatwe can look up.
You know, everyone is a coach,but what's the line between
coaching and psychotherapy?
So I go there and meet thisperson jack wood, incredible,
and I can still.
I can still picture it this 25years ago in um, in a couple of
months it's 99.
(21:09):
You know he invites me for acouple of days to observe a
course he's doing for um, for acompany.
It's the south of sweden and um, you know, he makes it his
business to kind of take me fora long walk and we're sitting in
this little harbor overlookingthe sea yet again, you know this
unknown, scary, inviting, andhe's just telling me all about
(21:33):
what he does and people inbusiness and the kind of fact
that people think people come tobusiness school, just, you know
, to make more money, but itisn't like that.
People come to find themselvesand kind of you know move
towards.
Coaching is really kind of abeginning of a recognition that
there's there's more aspects towork than just the pursuit of
efficiency.
And I was like I, I don't knowI understood anything honestly,
(21:58):
but I just like felt I want, Iwant more of this.
Sonal (22:02):
I'm going to have what he's having.
Yeah, I'm'm gonna have whathe's having yeah, I'm gonna have
what he's having.
GP (22:06):
I'm gonna have what he's having.
He was, um, he was thoughtful,he was deep, he was smart, he
was cool.
He wasn't perfect, um, andthere was, um, there was an
emotional honesty that I aspireto, that I didn't have.
And so, and I could tell youthe first conversation of George
(22:27):
, the conversation of Jack, andthen so I started doing this
half time and half time and fora long time.
First I was kind of going backand forth between Switzerland
and Italy, then I went toSwitzerland for six months, then
I went to Switzerland for ayear, then I stayed on a stay
another year, and meanwhile Ineeded more training.
So I started going to theTavistock Institute learning
more systematically aboutorganizational consultation,
(22:50):
because I continue to have thisidea and actually I've already
changed my mind.
I was wrong.
It wasn't a scaffolding, it wasa backbone.
I think you know that it was ascaffold at the beginning.
I I think academic training isa scaffold when you begin in a
role, but then slowly it becomesa backbone.
It's less something thatprotects you from the world, but
(23:12):
something that holds you upwhile it allows your skin to
encounters the world, and sothat's, you know, that's the
whole process in which I wastraining more.
I was going to the Tavistock.
I was doing every kind of groupdynamics work as a participant
that I could get my hands.
I wanted to experience what Iwas supposed to be doing and we
were doing some cool stuff.
We were doing some interestingcoaching and I was starting to
(23:34):
write and um, and so I washaving a great time.
I was a freelancer.
I was a freelancer, I waseconomically, I was making
enough money, but I wascompletely outside.
Everything I knew and at thetime it was fine because I
needed to break from the culturein which I grew up, which is a
(23:56):
steady job in an organizationwas everything was so important,
and so I was really making abreak from my, the world of my
family, the world of my, youknow, my culture.
And, yes, everyone was likewhat are you doing?
You know I was, I was learning,I was growing, I was branching
(24:21):
out pretty much everything thatI do.
Now.
The seeds were all born in thosefive years.
There's, there's really I don'tknow if I've had that thought
since an original.
I know I've had a few, butthey're all, they're all sprouts
, they're all sprouted, thoseseeds.
(24:42):
But, yeah, my parents I mean myparents, bless them, they, they
say that um, occasionally, butthey're clearly distraught.
I mean, I trained for 10 yearsand then I walked away and at
the beginning, the first sixmonths, first year, oh yeah,
he's doing some kind of micro.
There's all these words, wordslike a micro-specialization is
(25:03):
learning about work psychology.
But by year three it's notgoing back and there's no clear
way going forward.
Because I'm starting to want toteach.
But so people in the clinicalworld are starting to say, well,
this guy clearly left, he wantsto do something else.
You know, um, um, farewell.
(25:27):
But people in the business worldremember we're talking about
2001, 2002, 2003.
And, yes, this graduate fromthe university of catania,
immensely proud, but you knowit's not really.
You know one of the namespeople are used to in top
business schools and a graduatein what, oh, in medicine, as a
psychiatrist, right.
And you know this is pre thefinancial crisis.
(25:49):
This is it's.
It's difficult to imagine whatit was like before people became
so interested in all about thehuman, the spirit or work, now,
the financial times, as asection of mental health in the
workplace.
This is not 2003.
Okay, in 2003 I'm lying in bed,having this dream that I'm on a
(26:13):
train and someone abroad and I'mgoing to work somewhere which I
always did, and I have mybackpack, and my backpack has
everything I used for work, likemy laptop, my passport, and it
gets stolen and I have nodocuments and I have nothing.
And I would wake up in absolutedrenches of sweat.
(26:36):
And I remember, you know, beingin analysis at the times, but
psychoanalysis as part of mytraining, as part of my growth,
and we used to call it the lostbackpack dream and the sense
that, um, you know, and that'sthat's, that's how I felt.
Yeah, I was just out there, onmy own, on this journey, and
(27:02):
this is why it's so useful tohave coaching, to have therapy,
to have any kind of systematicsupport, and it really took help
and I was fortunate because Ihad a lot of help, I had
colleagues, I had professionalsupport to realize I needed to
have that dream.
I needed to let go of mybaggage and see who was I before
(27:25):
I was a medical graduate,before I was a psychiatrist,
before I was.
All these things that I, youknow, I, I was taught made you a
good person before I was a role.
You know, what did?
What do I think about, what doI care about, what would I like
to do?
And I really like to do thisand I really like to do this
(27:46):
kind of coaching, consulting,teaching about the human aspect
of the workplace.
I realized this is really myniche.
But people are looking at meand saying, but that's not, you
don't really fit what templateor what we have.
(28:06):
So, in fact, at the time Iapplied at some point I applied
for a job, um at IMD and Iremember getting the feedback
that you know people would like,really like, what you're doing,
really thoughtful, really smart, but we don't think you're good
enough to stand in a classroomouch imagine that.
(28:28):
Oh, now we laugh about it whatwere they thinking?
I wasn't I was, they were.
They were thinking the truth, Iwasn't based on their.
Sonal (28:39):
I was not.
I was not.
GP (28:41):
I was not.
I didn't have enough experience.
I was trying to straddle toobig a gap.
I was too ambitious, toodeluded about my skills.
I had friends who supported meand therefore kind of saw the
best in me.
I didn't have enough experience.
And so, you know, one of myfriends said you know, there's
(29:01):
um, there's a, maybe there's anopportunity to kind of go and
teach elsewhere.
And I, in Copenhagen BusinessSchool, was starting this MBA in
English, and someone who thisfriend and colleague of mine and
co-author, jack, knew was there, and so I started teaching
there.
You know, I'm really breaking mybone and this is I've never.
(29:22):
I've never.
I don't think I've ever spokenabout this in, in a, in a kind
of uh, please tell us, do youknow how GP was started?
No, so, until I was um, until2004,.
You know, of course, I wasworking international,
internationally and um, I nevercalled myself GP, but everyone
(29:46):
and these were the days whenpeople were less sensitive about
pronunciation and all that soall my Anglo-Saxon colleagues
are like oh, giampieroPetrigliari, what's GP?
You know, we'll call you GP.
And I resented it.
And I resented like you know,look, I can learn to say you
know, oswald, why can't youlearn to say Jumpeiro but?
Sonal (30:07):
fine, yeah, that's my identity, that's my identity and
so I resented it.
GP (30:12):
And then I am at CBS and it's the opening of the first
MBA class I'm ever going toteach there.
And I remember, you know, we'reall kind of brought there and
there's a bunch of professorsbeing introduced and the
students are there and, um, youknow, I get called to the front
and there's this lineup and, um,I'm younger than probably half
(30:37):
of the students, probably threequarters of the students at best
, at best.
Yeah, I mean like I'm um atbest, I am um at best.
I am 10 years younger than theyoungest other person on that
lineup.
Everyone knows each other,right, I'm this person who flies
(31:01):
from Switzerland and, you know,is clearly the rookie.
Sonal (31:07):
And his name is Giampiero Petri.
GP (31:09):
And no, no, no, and we all have to introduce ourselves.
And so I find myself saying myname is Giampiero Petri, I go by
GP.
You said that, Gary.
I go by GP.
You said that.
Yes, I did, and I thought aboutwhat's that, what's that about?
(31:30):
And then I realized shortlyafter I wanted to take my
friends with me.
I want to take my friends withme, the people that had helped
me, got me there.
Maybe they didn't take meseriously, they messed with me,
but sometimes people mess withyour identity because they
(31:53):
imagine you in a way that youcannot yet imagine yourself, and
I've learned that that's oftenwhat good mentors do.
And so, yeah, and ever since Iintroduced myself, and every
time I start a class and I say,oh, my name is Gianpiero
(32:13):
Petrugieri, but I go by GP, youknow, there's all the people I
started with.
There's all the people who kindof held me while I was shaky in
this transition and kind ofopened me while I was shaky in
this transition and kind ofopened the door to a field and
opened the door to anopportunity.
And CBS was great, and the CBStimes were great and I loved
(32:34):
teaching and I did well.
And then we started doing moreand more and at the time, though
, I was really looking at acareer.
I have lots of work.
The problem wasn't a lot ofwork, but you know what I was
also realizing?
It was good to about five yearsof freelancers.
(32:55):
That wasn't me.
I did want to be part of aninstitution, I did want to be an
academic.
You know, when you're afreelancer, writing feels like a
luxury because you're takingtime from work that, you know,
is revenue generating, and allof that.
And I didn't think I coulddevelop my intellectual agenda
(33:18):
in the way I wished outside ofan academic institution.
So I did want a job and, youknow, even if I had a little bit
more experience teaching, thatdoesn't mean that I looked any
better.
And so, yet again, my friendJack says you know, we're in
(33:40):
Paris, and says, oh, I'm justgoing to go and have a drink
with an old classmate of minethat just moved to Europe and
she's working at INSEAD.
She's the chair of theorganizational behavior area.
Why don't you come?
And I introduce you.
Okay.
And she's an INSEAD professor.
(34:01):
So we go to the Amble, abeautiful, beautiful old
restaurant at the top of theGare de Lyon in Paris, and I
meet Herminia Ibarra, whogenuinely did imagine me,
genuinely did invent me, and shewas just, um, you know,
(34:25):
certainly the person that openedthe door to inset to me and,
you know, and, and you know,really helped me.
She didn't pave the way, helpedme make my own way.
Um, and an incredible scenario.
We all have role models, anincredible role model of
academic leadership sharp,thoughtful, deep, big-hearted.
(34:53):
You know this idea that youknow you can be very sharp and
very embracing.
The two things don't go, um,you know, are not, are not
incompatible.
That's, um, really, where manyhours for me?
And um, and so we meet and I Ithink you know I'm trying to say
(35:13):
all I want to do and all this,and so she's like, oh, you
should come to inset.
Uh, you should, we shouldinterview you.
And I was like, right there,right there, I send a.
Sonal (35:25):
CV.
Pause here.
Oh my gosh, you have shared somuch.
First of all, I love thereflection you're having today
and how there was a movement.
What you thought started out asscaffolding moved to a backbone
.
Yeah, it's beautiful, itdoesn't have to be one thing.
(35:47):
You started out, you know, forall of us, when we're thinking
like, yeah, it turned out to bethe backbone Because, for
example, my values, my raisond'etre comes from there and it
has never shifted right justlike that sort of cliff.
The waves keep coming, but I'mstill, you know, the back is
erect.
I love that.
I also want to highlightobjects when when you said, hey,
(36:09):
I want to get into morebusiness, because people get
into business school.
On the surface it looks likethey want to make more money,
you know, get more title, all ofthat worldly stuff which is,
you know, which is which isimportant, which matters.
But ultimately you saiddefinitely matters oh yeah.
And then you said we, you know,are we all objects versus agents
(36:30):
, products versus shapers?
And that part, um, that thatreally touched me right now and
I think that, um, one of thereasons I do what I do.
Just on a side note, I thinkcareers are immensely important
to our mental health and I thinkwhen people are happy at work,
(36:51):
I think there's less crime.
I don't know if there'sresearch on it, but things just,
you know, no one has time tojoin a criminal gang because
they're too busy having fun atwork and taking care of their
family and like, I don't need todo that.
So, which is why I think that,right, yeah, of course, you know
, you can argue spirituality andmeditation.
GP (37:09):
I just think that this route , no, no, I I agree, yeah, yeah,
I think careers, I mean mysense of careers and this is, I
know, in some way I'm tellingyou my career, I'm telling you a
story.
Right, careers are one story ofour body in the world, not the
(37:30):
only story, but one story, ofcourse.
Of course, and and it's apretty big story, yes, given how
much time we spend and how muchtime we invest, and so if our
body is busy living that story,of course it's not going to act
out other stories that areincompatible with it, right?
Um?
Sonal (37:50):
but that's exactly the point when we're living that,
that dream, like that dream youhad in the train, that your
backpack getting stolen, like alot of us have a dream, like I
had a dream when I started work.
I was 21, 22 in the early 2000s.
My biggest nightmare wasshowing up to work like naked,
like before I got to wear myclothes.
Yours is very specific.
We all have that.
(38:11):
We've all had that right.
GP (38:13):
I have that too.
Yeah, we've all had that right.
I have that too.
Sonal (38:15):
I have that too, so yours is a backpack and your
passport is gone, your laptop isgone, so you're like
undocumented and you're figuringstuff out.
And we're going to talk aboutthat because we want to you know
what I cherish it.
GP (38:25):
Now I cherish it.
I go back to that dream.
I cherish it because every timeI complain it, I complain.
It's not every job, a dream job.
For me, a dream job is a jobyou don't have, you know for me
a dream job is a job.
You don't have Any real job.
There's even a job.
I love this job.
(38:46):
Okay, and maybe this is going tosound cynical to you, this is
going to be a quite weird turnof GP.
Any job, even the best job, as20 of the stuff that you really
kind of allows you to, you know,put, your, put your signature
on uh, I love that on on alittle piece of art, and 80 is
(39:10):
the stuff you have to do forthat.
20%, sure, but you know, everytime when people say, oh,
academia is so political, sodifficult, and let's go there,
the lost backpack dream, I willtake everything.
Yeah, the lost backpack dream.
Everything.
Yeah, everything instead of thelost backpack dream.
Sonal (39:28):
No, and the sweat.
GP (39:30):
I will take all the burden and the complexities and the
challenges of institutional lifeover that.
And there's some people that Iknow, I work with, I love, I
respect that say, oh my God,that for me would be.
You know, that would shrink mysoul.
Yeah, I really need independence.
I have one of my closestfriends, or my colleagues here.
(39:51):
You know I've been trying amillion times to hire him and
say come here full time and heprefers not to, and I respect
him and he feels like that's theway it is.
So I think we all have to findour home, we all have to find
out, as we say in France, ourterroir, and for some of us it's
within an institution and forsome of us it's within a
(40:13):
portfolio career, within aninstitution, and for some of us
is within a portfolio career.
And then you know, that's,that's kind of allows us to not
tell but to live the story weare trying to live exactly, and
it's a dream but it's a realityit's a reality and it's so
personal, right, like you said.
Sonal (40:27):
Uh, I'm not the guy to talk about careers.
I don't have a five-year plan.
I completely love that.
I'm not.
I don't know what I'm havingfor lunch tomorrow.
When a company says where doyou see yourself in five years,
I'm like stop, stop.
Does the company know wherethey see themselves?
Like, yeah, right.
So it's more about you're doingwhat you enjoy and when you
don't enjoy it, what are youdoing about it?
How you you know so this isthis is this is, this is the
(40:49):
beauty.
GP (40:59):
But this is the thing, yeah, and I find this is the thing
that I feel the only way I canmake sense of it, because, you
know, I'm not, I'm notparticularly brave person, I'm
an anxious person.
But you know, it's interestingthat in those moments, if I
think of, you know, meetingGeorge and letting him Kind of
disorient me, make me dosomething different, meeting
Jack, meeting Romania, therewere all moments where you know,
(41:25):
I like how you, how you put it,I love what, I love what she's
having right, that that I givecredit to myself for I'm not
afraid, I'm not afraid offalling in love.
So now, that's what it is andthat I think is one of my core
skills.
You know, in a classroom, in apiece of research, I'm there and
if I see something that I feelis worth it, I'm willing to take
a risk, to give it a go.
And, yes, I've been hurt.
Sonal (41:46):
Sure, that comes with the vulnerability.
GP (41:47):
It comes with the territory I've never regret, you know, I
don't know that I've everregretted it and yes, I've been
fickle, because that's whathappens sometimes.
But yeah, so that's how I gotinvited to interview at INSEAD.
I love that and I want to know,you want to know, I want to
know more.
Sonal (42:04):
I want to know more, but I do also want to say, when you
said dream job is the jobbecause I say dream job a lot, I
love how you put it it's a jobyou don't have, or it's a job
you've had and you know whatit's like to wake up on monday
morning and say happy to bealive, as opposed to sunday
night.
You're shivering and you'relike I can't like the thought of
monday morning gives me anxiety, right, so, so, so that yeah
(42:27):
and and um, I like when you know, when you talked about objects,
agents, products, shapers, Ithink of it as like we're not
mere cogs in the wheel, we areactually driving.
That, hopefully.
And the wheel, yeah, we know wecan steer the wheel, literally
steering wheel where.
I love that because a lot ofpeople think they have no other
(42:50):
choice.
GP (42:52):
It takes a lot of work.
It takes a lot of work, ittakes a lot of work to to
recognize that and, honestly, Ithink it also takes resources,
and not just and I don't meanjust financial, practical
resources, emotional, socialresources social resources.
Sonal (43:08):
I completely agree.
You don't do this alone wecan't go.
GP (43:11):
You don't do this alone.
I think I isolation is the bestfriend of the status quo.
If you want people to feel theycan't do anything different,
that they're just coxing thewheel, all you have to do is
just isolate them exactly, andthis is a team sport, it's not
an individual sport, right?
Sonal (43:30):
nobody wins if you're playing alone here, so I, I
totally get that.
I love that Erminia Ibarra ispart of this story.
I don't know if she's listening.
I've had a huge girl crush onher Forever Forever.
I was doing my MBA and she wasthere and we had a chat.
She won't remember me.
I would love to have her on theshow.
GP (43:50):
And of course, her work on careers is so seminal she does
their.
Work on careers is so seminal.
Sonal (43:52):
She does, and career change is a big one.
I've seen a lot of her videoson YouTube.
So you meet her in thisbeautiful restaurant in Gare de
Lyon and he said oh, you mustcome to INSEAD, so you send your
CV.
What happens, jibri?
Long story short, then whatfollows is a year and a half
(44:14):
where I get invited to interviewat INSEAD three times.
Did you say a year and a half?
Like 18 months Over a year anda half?
GP (44:17):
Every six months I get an invitation to interview.
I come, I interview and then Iget turned down Three times,
Like you know.
Yeah, you know great, we loveyou and there's a misconception.
So I'm sure you work with a lotof people that kind of say how
do I stand out?
How do I make them notice me?
(44:38):
I had the opposite problem.
I stood out too much, I was toodifferent, and the question was
how do I fit in, Fit in?
So the feedback was always welove what you're doing, You're
super interesting.
But we have really two kinds ofprofile.
You know, we have this reallykind of young academics, pure
(45:00):
research focus, coming out of aPhD.
You are not that.
Or we have this kind of50-year-olds, you know, people
who have finished theirexecutive career.
They want to come back andteach.
They have a lot of corporatebattle scars and you're not that
either.
So we like you, but there's no,we can't put you in a box.
Sonal (45:20):
There's no box for you.
Hey, you made it to the end andthat means a lot to me because
you could have been listening toa bajillion other things, so
this likely means you enjoyedthe episode.
So I recommend that you hitfollow on the app you were
listening this podcast on andshare it with a friend who could
use some career inspiration.
(45:41):
Come on, sharing is caring,right.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with me today, and catch
you next time on how I Got Hired.
Hey there, welcome to the how I Got Hired podcast.
I'm your host, sonal Bahl,former HR director, founder of
Supercharge and corporatesurvivor of an epic career
roller coaster that started outin India, zipped through South
America and landed in Europe,and it's been such a wild ride
navigating visa, sponsorships,layoffs, recessions, all while
(00:28):
working in Spanish and French,which I learned on the fly
somehow, raising two kidssomehow, and sometimes just
trying to remember where Iparked my car.
Now, as a career strategist, Ibelieve a fulfilling career
isn't just for those with IvyLeague degrees or fancy
connections.
(00:49):
No, it's a right we all deserve.
That's why I'm here to bringyou top tier career advice
through coaching courses andthis very podcast where we meet
ordinary people like you and mewho share extraordinary stories
of career success, to prove thatif they can do it, you can do
(01:10):
it too.
So buckle up and get ready toget supercharged.
Hey, welcome back.
Today I have GianpieroPetriglieri on the show, so what
I'm going to do is firstintroduce him and then share the
backstory and, fair warning,this is going to get quite
(01:31):
personal.
So Gianpiero, or GP, isProfessor of Organizational
Behavior at INSEAD, which hasthe second best MBA program in
the world, by the way, where hedirects the Management
Acceleration Program, which isthe school's flagship executive
program for emerging leaders.
He has also served in the pastas vice chair of the World
(01:59):
Economic Forum on new models ofleadership and also taught at
HBS, harvard Business School andIMD Switzerland and IMD
Switzerland.
So, before executive education,gp taught OB1, organizational
Behavior 1 core course in theINSEAD MBA for five years, where
he won the student'sOutstanding Teacher Award and
Dean's Commendation for TeachingExcellence.
So this is where I first camein contact with GP.
(02:20):
He was my OB1 professor duringthe MBA program back in 2008.
Now I've been open about this inthe past the fact that the one
year that I pursued this MBA washard.
It was freaking hard.
Okay, I struggled a lot, bothacademically and even physically
(02:41):
, because I was time poor.
I had a newborn baby that I wasstill nursing and it was a lot,
and I completely felt like afish out of water.
The one respite, however, thatI used to look forward to during
the first two months of corecourses was GP's class.
He somehow made me, and so manyof us, feel smart, confident,
(03:07):
and he made me feel like Ibelonged, something that I used
to question every single day,and I still remember when his
class wrapped up and he was doneright, it was the end of the
trimester.
It was like, I think, the lastThursday of October 2008.
Everyone went to the front ofthe class to shake his hand and
(03:27):
thank him, and so did I, andwhen my turn came, to my horror,
I felt tears rolling out of myeyes and I started sobbing like
a baby.
This is very unlike me, and now, looking back, I realized I
must have been so hormonal, butalso I was really, really sad.
(03:51):
I have followed GP's careersince then and, oh my gosh, this
conversation is so good, sogood.
You've got to understand this.
Gp is a rock star, so when he'sgiving a talk I want you to
visualize this.
It is hard to find forgetsitting like a seat.
It's hard to find standing room.
(04:11):
So to hear him speak withhumility with me on this show,
where we talked about careerpivots, like moving from
medicine to education, and howhe got hired at NCI which is a
story in itself, by the way, itwas full of like.
It sounded like a completeroller coaster to me.
(04:31):
This is such a treat, honestly,and this is a slightly longer
episode, so I am going to bedividing it into two parts.
Okay, I'm done gushing, let'sget started with part one.
Parts Okay, I'm done gushing,let's get started with part one.
Oh my god, the excitement ispalpable.
You can detect it in my voice,and my guest is trying not to
(04:55):
laugh.
So I have Giapiero here on theshow.
Giapiero, welcome to how I GotHired.
GP (05:05):
Great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
So now I've been waiting.
I mean, I follow the show allthe time and I know I have to
beg to be brought in, but I'mglad you said yes finally.
Sonal (05:15):
Oh my gosh, the pleasure is all mine.
So GP, GP, can we say GP?
GP (05:19):
We go, of course we do GP.
Sonal (05:22):
I'm let's.
I'm sounding like julie andrewsand sound of music.
Let's start at the verybeginning, because I love
retracing careers, especiallynow that you have the gift of
time and hindsight right.
So you were like the seriousmedicine guy in the 1990s and
you were studying medicine andand, according to your LinkedIn
(05:44):
profile, which I kind of stalkeda lot the last few days, you
branched out specifically intopsychiatry and psychotherapy.
I love learning about like themotivations behind these moves,
because some of us arereinventing our careers or some
of us are going through thisjourney with our kids.
So I would love to know yourmotivations motivations I have a
(06:05):
two-parter here behind thesemoves and the second part is
that kid I want to say kidbecause we're kids in our 20s
still right, if that we stillhave gp.
I still are, if that gp in his20s somewhere yeah, exactly, if
he could see you today, whatwould he say to you?
GP (06:25):
so yeah, um, that kid was, would have been a bit arrogant
and insecure, which two thingsusually go together.
So he probably would have madesome joke, saying something like
oh, you know, you stayed, youstayed, you're fairly fit for an
old man, or something like that.
(06:47):
And but he would have also said, wow, I couldn't even imagine
that a life of this would exist,and certainly would exist for
me, exist and certainly wouldexist for me.
And so you'll be probably alittle bit puzzled, impressed
(07:07):
and, most of all, relieved,honestly, most of all relieved.
All that worrying about am Igoing to be okay, what's going
to happen and when is it goingto happen.
You know all that angst, thatintense angst that you know, you
and I know we work with peoplewho go through it, but, god, I
(07:28):
felt it all.
I felt it all.
Sonal (07:31):
Can we stay here?
Can you tell us more about that, because I think a lot of us
can relate with it, but not alot of us talk about it.
Can you tell?
GP (07:43):
us more about that angst.
Was it self-inflicted?
Coming from outside, what washappening?
I think the angst has alwaysbeen a part of who I am.
I mean, long before I was a kid, that was very, very reflective
and very sensitive.
These days we have names andlabels for these things, but I
thought a lot from a very earlyage about things like I remember
sitting in my bed thinkingwould it be better to be a rock,
(08:06):
like that lasts a long time butdoesn't feel anything, or to be
a person where you have allthese feelings and experiences
and you can move around, butthen you don't last very long
and then you die.
And so there was thisexistential part of me.
I mean, I have thoughts aboutwhere it comes from, but they're
(08:26):
they go into very personal, youknow, but just this sense of
precariousness and, um, and Ihad ambition and uh, you know,
that combination of ambition andprecariousness which,
ironically, has become, you know, the center of pretty much
everything I do, is somethingthat I didn't.
(08:46):
You know me, I'm not one ofthose academics that kind of
looks at the world at arm'slength, trying to be objective,
and you know, I study and teachstuff that I've experienced.
And so that combination ofambition, ambition for myself,
ambition to do something good,and precariousness and sense of.
(09:08):
You know, you have lots ofdreams and lots of fears and and
(09:29):
so you know, I would feel, Ithink the GP at 20, especially
the GP at 24 to 28, which iswhen I was going through my
psychiatric training, and it wasperhaps one of the most
difficult times I had.
(09:50):
It was really the beginning ofmy reorientation towards what I
do now.
I think the GP at that timewould be immensely relieved that
I have found my place, that Ifound my, as we say in France,
my métier and I have a family,and that I have a life in which
(10:15):
I can live inside my own skinand think my own thought and be
with my people and, um, oh mygosh, I've got goosebumps.
Sonal (10:25):
I've got goosebumps.
Listening to you all.
GP (10:28):
That felt like um, all that felt like a really long shot.
I I felt like a misfit.
I always felt like a misfit.
I'm a big friend of the misfits.
I now realize being a misfit isgood for you, um, but it's not
fun sometimes.
No, it's not fun sometimes yeahyou know when you look
(10:50):
when you look back, it's greatand I'm not gonna romanticize it
.
I'm not gonna romanticize theangst, the anxiety, and want to
do something different.
But what if I do somethingdifferent?
What happens?
And the worry, the worry myparents had, like, oh, you know,
you're done all this stuff andnow you're doing this other
thing, and what is that about?
And and the worries I had, youknow that I projected onto
(11:12):
everyone else yeah, my gosh.
Sonal (11:14):
Um, yeah, it sounds.
When you said I wonder whatit's like to be a rock, I
thought you were gonna say star,rock, star.
But you were really serious acliff.
GP (11:28):
I know I grew up.
I grew up between the volcanoand the sea and that place,
between this kind of veryuncontrollable, beautiful
elemental forces of nature.
(11:48):
You know, so you're talkingmetaphorically and figuratively.
Figuratively I mean I grew up insicily, between etna and the
sea, literally.
Wow, you know, and I could youknow, from the, from the balcony
of my parents' home, you cansee both and, uh, and I could
see both and, so and, and thesea is pretty, it's not.
(12:11):
Beach is very ragged, you know.
So I would, you know, see thesecliffs hit by the waves.
And there was something,metaphorically, there was
something admirable for me, whowas so insecure and I was so
sensitive about what everyonethought and what everyone said,
to see a cliff that's hit bythese massive waves and doesn't
move.
And and yet I, even as a child,I realized that's really
(12:36):
there's something wrong there,which is you're stuck, you know,
and I think I was trying torescue the value of my
sensitivity, of my, you know,and trying to turn emotionality
into mobility, which is, youknow, sort of, I think, a
(12:56):
lifelong journey for me but also, I think, for many other people
.
But anyway, you know, youwanted kind of I think I'm
giving you the existential kindof intrapersonal thing, but the
truth is I loved medicine, Iadored medicine and I'm still a
clinician at heart.
Nothing has changed, you know,the way of thinking, the way of
(13:17):
understanding.
You know, medicine seems soscientific but it's also so
poetic, is so intuitive, andwhat it gave me was a
scaffolding to kind of manage myintuition and a discipline a
discipline to think about yourintuition and prove them and
(13:39):
disprove them, and alwaysremember that you have theories,
that you have knowledge, butthen there's a body in front of
you and and and a professionalis always caught in the space
between a body of theory and thebody of an actual person.
Um, and I, and all that Ilearned in in medical school.
(13:59):
Then I went into psychiatrybecause I thought I would push
the poetics and and honestly, II did not enjoy that.
I was, that was my most unhappytime, and why?
Sonal (14:11):
why is that?
GP (14:12):
because I thought it was, um , I had gone in as many people
do you know, I mean, I guessthis is really your field.
I went in with an idealizedversion of what psychiatry was.
I thought it would be like allpsychoanalytic, psychotherapy,
psychology, and it was hyperbiological and very
(14:35):
deterministic, and so it wasreally quite disjointed from
from sort of my dreams.
And so I did a lot of thatstuff on the side.
I was training in psychotherapyor doing a lot of workshop, I
was doing my own um, I was doingmy own work and uh, and all
that.
And of course, in in Italy therewas this um, there's this big
(14:58):
traditional I call systemicpsychotherapy, trying to
understand how the way peoplefeel, uh, is not just about what
happens inside them but it'sabout what happens around them.
And one of the things that Ibecame interested in is we were
speaking a lot in my trainingabout, um, families of origin,
(15:18):
right, and then romanticrelationships and all the kind
of stuff, and it seemed to methat we weren't talking about
work, um, and it was obviousthat I saw lots of people that,
actually, whose mental healthdeteriorated dramatically
(15:39):
because of what was happening atwork, and I also saw people
that seemed to struggle andsuddenly they had a good spell
at work.
And I also saw people that seemto struggle and suddenly they
had a good spell at work andtheir mental health increase.
And so you know, I guess I'mnot sure if you're going to ask
me.
People ask me all the time whydid you switch?
Why did you because it lookssuch a dramatic career change?
Sonal (16:00):
it does, it does.
I just want you to pause for asec because I don't want to
quickly double click on onething.
You're such a a poet here, gp.
I wanted to.
This was the.
I loved medicine.
It was the scaffolding tomanage my thinking.
That is so beautiful and sopoetic.
I'm going to steal that and Ithink my listeners are going to
steal that as well.
That is such a nice way ofdescribing either a body of work
(16:21):
, thing you thought, practice,whatever the scaffolding, it
just so visual.
You know the way you, the wayyou explained it.
So, um, yes, indeed, um, it wasgoing to be my next question
because you, um, you know, afteruh, pursuing, you said, in your
mid to late 20s, psychiatry,you worked at imd, copenhagen
(16:42):
business school and then ITSEAD,and I want to hear more about
this switch that you made, which, to the outside world, you know
, people must have had opinions,right, I'm sure, your family,
your friends and tell us whatwas going on in your head.
GP (16:57):
So let's start with the hindsight and then we do it
progressively.
Okay, so in hindsight you knowI always make the joke.
Maybe you've heard me make itlike oh, you know I, you know I,
I I found it was so difficultto move from a psychiatric
hospital to a business school.
Ha ha, ha, um, but the truth isI don't never feel I switched.
I never feel I switched.
(17:19):
Look, I was interested.
Then I became interested in mytraining, in the idea that work
can basically rip us apart or itcan hold us together and make
us grow.
And I'm still at it.
Yes, I'm still trying tounderstand how people break or
(17:42):
become whole at work, in theworkplace.
And the reason why I'm sointerested in leadership is
because I think leadership is akey factor in making workplaces
more whole or more fragmenting.
And I also think leadership isa word people use for their
aspiration to live in the worldin a certain way, A way in which
(18:06):
we are not just objects ofsystems but we are agents in
systems.
We are not just products but weare shapers of the world around
us.
And I think that's a fundamentalpsychological need, the sense
that think.
(18:28):
That's a fundamentalpsychological need, the sense
that we might not be entirelyable to.
We're not omnipotent, we can'tcompletely determine our life
and shape our surroundings butat least write a few sentences
in our story, have a saying whathappens around us, that that
ability to determine our journey, to build the space we live in,
um which I think we in businesswe call leadership.
(18:51):
But it's a much morefundamental psychological
impulse.
So I was always interested inthat and maybe I was interested
in that for myself, you know,because I was finding a while.
I think I was.
You know.
I said you're making me think,you know, because I was finding
a way.
I think I was you know, I saidyou're making me think you know
what.
it's funny.
You make me realize you know,there's two things.
I study how people find theirway as they move around and now
(19:14):
they kind of find a place, finda home, and I think it's because
I was trying to find my way, Iwas trying to find a home and it
took a long time and, yes,people.
So you know, first of all, Imean I accept to come on your
podcast, okay, because it's you,but I generally refuse to speak
about careers because I feelI'm the last person I can give
(19:36):
advice to anyone.
I have no, I have no, I have nocareer plan.
I freaked out for the most ofthe time I'm still kind of, you
know, teetering on the edge, andand you know these people that
say, well, you know, in fiveyears I never had that.
So here's what happened.
I have one skill I am good atattaching to people that I find
(20:06):
have something that can open adoor, and I don't mean
instrumentally, I meanintellectually, I mean
emotionally.
So here's what happens I'mdoing some psychiatric training
and one of my sort ofpsychotherapy.
The people I've met doingpsychotherapy you know
supervisors on the side isstarting to work at IMD.
So he says oh, you know,there's a colleague of mine
(20:27):
there.
His name was George Colerison,amazing, amazing professor and a
clinical psychologist andprofessor at IMD.
At the time he wasn't yet buthe was doing, he was doing his
transition.
And so it's like oh, you know,there's someone that is a
colleague of mine who wasactually training in
psychoanalysis and he's lookingfor clinicians because he was,
you know, late 90s, early 2000he was the explosion of coaching
(20:47):
and so they were like they werelooking for some people who had
a clinical background so thatwe can look up.
You know, everyone is a coach,but what's the line between
coaching and psychotherapy?
So I go there and meet thisperson jack wood, incredible,
and I can still.
I can still picture it this 25years ago in um, in a couple of
months it's 99.
(21:09):
You know he invites me for acouple of days to observe a
course he's doing for um, for acompany.
It's the south of sweden and um, you know, he makes it his
business to kind of take me fora long walk and we're sitting in
this little harbor overlookingthe sea yet again, you know this
unknown, scary, inviting, andhe's just telling me all about
(21:33):
what he does and people inbusiness and the kind of fact
that people think people come tobusiness school, just, you know
, to make more money, but itisn't like that.
People come to find themselvesand kind of you know move
towards.
Coaching is really kind of abeginning of a recognition that
there's there's more aspects towork than just the pursuit of
efficiency.
And I was like I, I don't knowI understood anything honestly,
(21:58):
but I just like felt I want, Iwant more of this.
Sonal (22:02):
I'm going to have what he's having.
Yeah, I'm'm gonna have whathe's having yeah, I'm gonna have
what he's having.
GP (22:06):
I'm gonna have what he's having.
He was, um, he was thoughtful,he was deep, he was smart, he
was cool.
He wasn't perfect, um, andthere was, um, there was an
emotional honesty that I aspireto, that I didn't have.
And so, and I could tell youthe first conversation of George
(22:27):
, the conversation of Jack, andthen so I started doing this
half time and half time and fora long time.
First I was kind of going backand forth between Switzerland
and Italy, then I went toSwitzerland for six months, then
I went to Switzerland for ayear, then I stayed on a stay
another year, and meanwhile Ineeded more training.
So I started going to theTavistock Institute learning
more systematically aboutorganizational consultation,
(22:50):
because I continue to have thisidea and actually I've already
changed my mind.
I was wrong.
It wasn't a scaffolding, it wasa backbone.
I think you know that it was ascaffold at the beginning.
I I think academic training isa scaffold when you begin in a
role, but then slowly it becomesa backbone.
It's less something thatprotects you from the world, but
(23:12):
something that holds you upwhile it allows your skin to
encounters the world, and sothat's, you know, that's the
whole process in which I wastraining more.
I was going to the Tavistock.
I was doing every kind of groupdynamics work as a participant
that I could get my hands.
I wanted to experience what Iwas supposed to be doing and we
were doing some cool stuff.
We were doing some interestingcoaching and I was starting to
(23:34):
write and um, and so I washaving a great time.
I was a freelancer.
I was a freelancer, I waseconomically, I was making
enough money, but I wascompletely outside.
Everything I knew and at thetime it was fine because I
needed to break from the culturein which I grew up, which is a
(23:56):
steady job in an organizationwas everything was so important,
and so I was really making abreak from my, the world of my
family, the world of my, youknow, my culture.
And, yes, everyone was likewhat are you doing?
You know I was, I was learning,I was growing, I was branching
(24:21):
out pretty much everything thatI do.
Now.
The seeds were all born in thosefive years.
There's, there's really I don'tknow if I've had that thought
since an original.
I know I've had a few, butthey're all, they're all sprouts
, they're all sprouted, thoseseeds.
(24:42):
But, yeah, my parents I mean myparents, bless them, they, they
say that um, occasionally, butthey're clearly distraught.
I mean, I trained for 10 yearsand then I walked away and at
the beginning, the first sixmonths, first year, oh yeah,
he's doing some kind of micro.
There's all these words, wordslike a micro-specialization is
(25:03):
learning about work psychology.
But by year three it's notgoing back and there's no clear
way going forward.
Because I'm starting to want toteach.
But so people in the clinicalworld are starting to say, well,
this guy clearly left, he wantsto do something else.
You know, um, um, farewell.
(25:27):
But people in the business worldremember we're talking about
2001, 2002, 2003.
And, yes, this graduate fromthe university of catania,
immensely proud, but you knowit's not really.
You know one of the namespeople are used to in top
business schools and a graduatein what, oh, in medicine, as a
psychiatrist, right.
And you know this is pre thefinancial crisis.
(25:49):
This is it's.
It's difficult to imagine whatit was like before people became
so interested in all about thehuman, the spirit or work, now,
the financial times, as asection of mental health in the
workplace.
This is not 2003.
Okay, in 2003 I'm lying in bed,having this dream that I'm on a
(26:13):
train and someone abroad and I'mgoing to work somewhere which I
always did, and I have mybackpack, and my backpack has
everything I used for work, likemy laptop, my passport, and it
gets stolen and I have nodocuments and I have nothing.
And I would wake up in absolutedrenches of sweat.
(26:36):
And I remember, you know, beingin analysis at the times, but
psychoanalysis as part of mytraining, as part of my growth,
and we used to call it the lostbackpack dream and the sense
that, um, you know, and that'sthat's, that's how I felt.
Yeah, I was just out there, onmy own, on this journey, and
(27:02):
this is why it's so useful tohave coaching, to have therapy,
to have any kind of systematicsupport, and it really took help
and I was fortunate because Ihad a lot of help, I had
colleagues, I had professionalsupport to realize I needed to
have that dream.
I needed to let go of mybaggage and see who was I before
(27:25):
I was a medical graduate,before I was a psychiatrist,
before I was.
All these things that I, youknow, I, I was taught made you a
good person before I was a role.
You know, what did?
What do I think about, what doI care about, what would I like
to do?
And I really like to do thisand I really like to do this
(27:46):
kind of coaching, consulting,teaching about the human aspect
of the workplace.
I realized this is really myniche.
But people are looking at meand saying, but that's not, you
don't really fit what templateor what we have.
(28:06):
So, in fact, at the time Iapplied at some point I applied
for a job, um at IMD and Iremember getting the feedback
that you know people would like,really like, what you're doing,
really thoughtful, really smart, but we don't think you're good
enough to stand in a classroomouch imagine that.
(28:28):
Oh, now we laugh about it whatwere they thinking?
I wasn't I was, they were.
They were thinking the truth, Iwasn't based on their.
Sonal (28:39):
I was not.
I was not.
GP (28:41):
I was not.
I didn't have enough experience.
I was trying to straddle toobig a gap.
I was too ambitious, toodeluded about my skills.
I had friends who supported meand therefore kind of saw the
best in me.
I didn't have enough experience.
And so, you know, one of myfriends said you know, there's
(29:01):
um, there's a, maybe there's anopportunity to kind of go and
teach elsewhere.
And I, in Copenhagen BusinessSchool, was starting this MBA in
English, and someone who thisfriend and colleague of mine and
co-author, jack, knew was there, and so I started teaching
there.
You know, I'm really breaking mybone and this is I've never.
(29:22):
I've never.
I don't think I've ever spokenabout this in, in a, in a kind
of uh, please tell us, do youknow how GP was started?
No, so, until I was um, until2004,.
You know, of course, I wasworking international,
internationally and um, I nevercalled myself GP, but everyone
(29:46):
and these were the days whenpeople were less sensitive about
pronunciation and all that soall my Anglo-Saxon colleagues
are like oh, giampieroPetrigliari, what's GP?
You know, we'll call you GP.
And I resented it.
And I resented like you know,look, I can learn to say you
know, oswald, why can't youlearn to say Jumpeiro but?
Sonal (30:07):
fine, yeah, that's my identity, that's my identity and
so I resented it.
GP (30:12):
And then I am at CBS and it's the opening of the first
MBA class I'm ever going toteach there.
And I remember, you know, we'reall kind of brought there and
there's a bunch of professorsbeing introduced and the
students are there and, um, youknow, I get called to the front
and there's this lineup and, um,I'm younger than probably half
(30:37):
of the students, probably threequarters of the students at best
, at best.
Yeah, I mean like I'm um atbest, I am um at best.
I am 10 years younger than theyoungest other person on that
lineup.
Everyone knows each other,right, I'm this person who flies
(31:01):
from Switzerland and, you know,is clearly the rookie.
Sonal (31:07):
And his name is Giampiero Petri.
GP (31:09):
And no, no, no, and we all have to introduce ourselves.
And so I find myself saying myname is Giampiero Petri, I go by
GP.
You said that, Gary.
I go by GP.
You said that.
Yes, I did, and I thought aboutwhat's that, what's that about?
(31:30):
And then I realized shortlyafter I wanted to take my
friends with me.
I want to take my friends withme, the people that had helped
me, got me there.
Maybe they didn't take meseriously, they messed with me,
but sometimes people mess withyour identity because they
(31:53):
imagine you in a way that youcannot yet imagine yourself, and
I've learned that that's oftenwhat good mentors do.
And so, yeah, and ever since Iintroduced myself, and every
time I start a class and I say,oh, my name is Gianpiero
(32:13):
Petrugieri, but I go by GP, youknow, there's all the people I
started with.
There's all the people who kindof held me while I was shaky in
this transition and kind ofopened me while I was shaky in
this transition and kind ofopened the door to a field and
opened the door to anopportunity.
And CBS was great, and the CBStimes were great and I loved
(32:34):
teaching and I did well.
And then we started doing moreand more and at the time, though
, I was really looking at acareer.
I have lots of work.
The problem wasn't a lot ofwork, but you know what I was
also realizing?
It was good to about five yearsof freelancers.
(32:55):
That wasn't me.
I did want to be part of aninstitution, I did want to be an
academic.
You know, when you're afreelancer, writing feels like a
luxury because you're takingtime from work that, you know,
is revenue generating, and allof that.
And I didn't think I coulddevelop my intellectual agenda
(33:18):
in the way I wished outside ofan academic institution.
So I did want a job and, youknow, even if I had a little bit
more experience teaching, thatdoesn't mean that I looked any
better.
And so, yet again, my friendJack says you know, we're in
(33:40):
Paris, and says, oh, I'm justgoing to go and have a drink
with an old classmate of minethat just moved to Europe and
she's working at INSEAD.
She's the chair of theorganizational behavior area.
Why don't you come?
And I introduce you.
Okay.
And she's an INSEAD professor.
(34:01):
So we go to the Amble, abeautiful, beautiful old
restaurant at the top of theGare de Lyon in Paris, and I
meet Herminia Ibarra, whogenuinely did imagine me,
genuinely did invent me, and shewas just, um, you know,
(34:25):
certainly the person that openedthe door to inset to me and,
you know, and, and you know,really helped me.
She didn't pave the way, helpedme make my own way.
Um, and an incredible scenario.
We all have role models, anincredible role model of
academic leadership sharp,thoughtful, deep, big-hearted.
(34:53):
You know this idea that youknow you can be very sharp and
very embracing.
The two things don't go, um,you know, are not, are not
incompatible.
That's, um, really, where manyhours for me?
And um, and so we meet and I Ithink you know I'm trying to say
(35:13):
all I want to do and all this,and so she's like, oh, you
should come to inset.
Uh, you should, we shouldinterview you.
And I was like, right there,right there, I send a.
Sonal (35:25):
CV.
Pause here.
Oh my gosh, you have shared somuch.
First of all, I love thereflection you're having today
and how there was a movement.
What you thought started out asscaffolding moved to a backbone
.
Yeah, it's beautiful, itdoesn't have to be one thing.
(35:47):
You started out, you know, forall of us, when we're thinking
like, yeah, it turned out to bethe backbone Because, for
example, my values, my raisond'etre comes from there and it
has never shifted right justlike that sort of cliff.
The waves keep coming, but I'mstill, you know, the back is
erect.
I love that.
I also want to highlightobjects when when you said, hey,
(36:09):
I want to get into morebusiness, because people get
into business school.
On the surface it looks likethey want to make more money,
you know, get more title, all ofthat worldly stuff which is,
you know, which is which isimportant, which matters.
But ultimately you saiddefinitely matters oh yeah.
And then you said we, you know,are we all objects versus agents
(36:30):
, products versus shapers?
And that part, um, that thatreally touched me right now and
I think that, um, one of thereasons I do what I do.
Just on a side note, I thinkcareers are immensely important
to our mental health and I thinkwhen people are happy at work,
(36:51):
I think there's less crime.
I don't know if there'sresearch on it, but things just,
you know, no one has time tojoin a criminal gang because
they're too busy having fun atwork and taking care of their
family and like, I don't need todo that.
So, which is why I think that,right, yeah, of course, you know
, you can argue spirituality andmeditation.
GP (37:09):
I just think that this route , no, no, I I agree, yeah, yeah,
I think careers, I mean mysense of careers and this is, I
know, in some way I'm tellingyou my career, I'm telling you a
story.
Right, careers are one story ofour body in the world, not the
(37:30):
only story, but one story, ofcourse.
Of course, and and it's apretty big story, yes, given how
much time we spend and how muchtime we invest, and so if our
body is busy living that story,of course it's not going to act
out other stories that areincompatible with it, right?
Um?
Sonal (37:50):
but that's exactly the point when we're living that,
that dream, like that dream youhad in the train, that your
backpack getting stolen, like alot of us have a dream, like I
had a dream when I started work.
I was 21, 22 in the early 2000s.
My biggest nightmare wasshowing up to work like naked,
like before I got to wear myclothes.
Yours is very specific.
We all have that.
(38:11):
We've all had that right.
GP (38:13):
I have that too.
Yeah, we've all had that right.
I have that too.
Sonal (38:15):
I have that too, so yours is a backpack and your
passport is gone, your laptop isgone, so you're like
undocumented and you're figuringstuff out.
And we're going to talk aboutthat because we want to you know
what I cherish it.
GP (38:25):
Now I cherish it.
I go back to that dream.
I cherish it because every timeI complain it, I complain.
It's not every job, a dream job.
For me, a dream job is a jobyou don't have, you know for me
a dream job is a job.
You don't have Any real job.
There's even a job.
I love this job.
(38:46):
Okay, and maybe this is going tosound cynical to you, this is
going to be a quite weird turnof GP.
Any job, even the best job, as20 of the stuff that you really
kind of allows you to, you know,put, your, put your signature
on uh, I love that on on alittle piece of art, and 80 is
(39:10):
the stuff you have to do forthat.
20%, sure, but you know, everytime when people say, oh,
academia is so political, sodifficult, and let's go there,
the lost backpack dream, I willtake everything.
Yeah, the lost backpack dream.
Everything.
Yeah, everything instead of thelost backpack dream.
Sonal (39:28):
No, and the sweat.
GP (39:30):
I will take all the burden and the complexities and the
challenges of institutional lifeover that.
And there's some people that Iknow, I work with, I love, I
respect that say, oh my God,that for me would be.
You know, that would shrink mysoul.
Yeah, I really need independence.
I have one of my closestfriends, or my colleagues here.
(39:51):
You know I've been trying amillion times to hire him and
say come here full time and heprefers not to, and I respect
him and he feels like that's theway it is.
So I think we all have to findour home, we all have to find
out, as we say in France, ourterroir, and for some of us it's
within an institution and forsome of us it's within a
(40:13):
portfolio career, within aninstitution, and for some of us
is within a portfolio career.
And then you know, that's,that's kind of allows us to not
tell but to live the story weare trying to live exactly, and
it's a dream but it's a realityit's a reality and it's so
personal, right, like you said.
Sonal (40:27):
Uh, I'm not the guy to talk about careers.
I don't have a five-year plan.
I completely love that.
I'm not.
I don't know what I'm havingfor lunch tomorrow.
When a company says where doyou see yourself in five years,
I'm like stop, stop.
Does the company know wherethey see themselves?
Like, yeah, right.
So it's more about you're doingwhat you enjoy and when you
don't enjoy it, what are youdoing about it?
How you you know so this isthis is this is, this is the
(40:49):
beauty.
GP (40:59):
But this is the thing, yeah, and I find this is the thing
that I feel the only way I canmake sense of it, because, you
know, I'm not, I'm notparticularly brave person, I'm
an anxious person.
But you know, it's interestingthat in those moments, if I
think of, you know, meetingGeorge and letting him Kind of
disorient me, make me dosomething different, meeting
Jack, meeting Romania, therewere all moments where you know,
(41:25):
I like how you, how you put it,I love what, I love what she's
having right, that that I givecredit to myself for I'm not
afraid, I'm not afraid offalling in love.
So now, that's what it is andthat I think is one of my core
skills.
You know, in a classroom, in apiece of research, I'm there and
if I see something that I feelis worth it, I'm willing to take
a risk, to give it a go.
And, yes, I've been hurt.
Sonal (41:46):
Sure, that comes with the vulnerability.
GP (41:47):
It comes with the territory I've never regret, you know, I
don't know that I've everregretted it and yes, I've been
fickle, because that's whathappens sometimes.
But yeah, so that's how I gotinvited to interview at INSEAD.
I love that and I want to know,you want to know, I want to
know more.
Sonal (42:04):
I want to know more, but I do also want to say, when you
said dream job is the jobbecause I say dream job a lot, I
love how you put it it's a jobyou don't have, or it's a job
you've had and you know whatit's like to wake up on monday
morning and say happy to bealive, as opposed to sunday
night.
You're shivering and you'relike I can't like the thought of
monday morning gives me anxiety, right, so, so, so that yeah
(42:27):
and and um, I like when you know, when you talked about objects,
agents, products, shapers, Ithink of it as like we're not
mere cogs in the wheel, we areactually driving.
That, hopefully.
And the wheel, yeah, we know wecan steer the wheel, literally
steering wheel where.
I love that because a lot ofpeople think they have no other
(42:50):
choice.
GP (42:52):
It takes a lot of work.
It takes a lot of work, ittakes a lot of work to to
recognize that and, honestly, Ithink it also takes resources,
and not just and I don't meanjust financial, practical
resources, emotional, socialresources social resources.
Sonal (43:08):
I completely agree.
You don't do this alone wecan't go.
GP (43:11):
You don't do this alone.
I think I isolation is the bestfriend of the status quo.
If you want people to feel theycan't do anything different,
that they're just coxing thewheel, all you have to do is
just isolate them exactly, andthis is a team sport, it's not
an individual sport, right?
Sonal (43:30):
nobody wins if you're playing alone here, so I, I
totally get that.
I love that Erminia Ibarra ispart of this story.
I don't know if she's listening.
I've had a huge girl crush onher Forever Forever.
I was doing my MBA and she wasthere and we had a chat.
She won't remember me.
I would love to have her on theshow.
GP (43:50):
And of course, her work on careers is so seminal she does
their.
Work on careers is so seminal.
Sonal (43:52):
She does, and career change is a big one.
I've seen a lot of her videoson YouTube.
So you meet her in thisbeautiful restaurant in Gare de
Lyon and he said oh, you mustcome to INSEAD, so you send your
CV.
What happens, jibri?
Long story short, then whatfollows is a year and a half
(44:14):
where I get invited to interviewat INSEAD three times.
Did you say a year and a half?
Like 18 months Over a year anda half?
GP (44:17):
Every six months I get an invitation to interview.
I come, I interview and then Iget turned down Three times,
Like you know.
Yeah, you know great, we loveyou and there's a misconception.
So I'm sure you work with a lotof people that kind of say how
do I stand out?
How do I make them notice me?
(44:38):
I had the opposite problem.
I stood out too much, I was toodifferent, and the question was
how do I fit in, Fit in?
So the feedback was always welove what you're doing, You're
super interesting.
But we have really two kinds ofprofile.
You know, we have this reallykind of young academics, pure
(45:00):
research focus, coming out of aPhD.
You are not that.
Or we have this kind of50-year-olds, you know, people
who have finished theirexecutive career.
They want to come back andteach.
They have a lot of corporatebattle scars and you're not that
either.
So we like you, but there's no,we can't put you in a box.
Sonal (45:20):
There's no box for you.
Hey, you made it to the end andthat means a lot to me because
you could have been listening toa bajillion other things, so
this likely means you enjoyedthe episode.
So I recommend that you hitfollow on the app you were
listening this podcast on andshare it with a friend who could
use some career inspiration.
(45:41):
Come on, sharing is caring,right.
Thank you so much for spendingtime with me today, and catch
you next time on how I Got Hired.
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