April 16, 2025 • 36 mins
Are you curious about the secrets behind enduring female friendships? Or perhaps you're wondering how to mend a strained relationship with your BFF? In Episode 71 of "How I Met My BFF," join us, Leisa and Tamara, as we dive into these questions with our insightful guest, Susan Shapiro Barash. Susan, an expert on female friendships and author of 18 books, shares wisdom from her latest work, "Estranged: How Strained Female Friendships Are Mended or Ended."
We kick off with personal stories about our transformative health journeys involving hormone replacement therapies. Then, Susan takes us on a journey through the emotional landscape of female friendships, revealing how societal pressures and personal challenges can either strain or strengthen these vital connections. From political divides to life changes, we discuss it all, including how to find new friends and nurture existing ones. Tune in for heartfelt anecdotes, expert insights, and a light-hearted chat about the joy of visiting museums with your BFF. Don’t forget to check out Susan’s book for a deeper dive!
Get Your Copy of the Book, Estranged HERE
Got a BFF story to share? Email us at info@howimetmyBFF.com.
Visit our site at howimetmybff.com
Help support our show by getting some of our exclusive swag found here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa Reed (00:01):
Hey, besties. My name's Lisa.
Tamara Kindred (00:03):
And my name's Tamara, and we're BFFs.
Leisa Reed (00:06):
Tamara and I met when we were about 12 years old
growing up in good oldFairbanks, Alaska.
Tamara Kindred (00:11):
And we've been best friends forever since.
Leisa Reed (00:13):
That's right. And that's why we've decided to have
some fun, friendly conversationswith the bestest of best
friends.
Tamara Kindred (00:18):
We'll talk about how we became best friends, our
experiences together, and haveother best friends on the show
to share how they met.
Leisa Reed (00:26):
Who knows? You never know when you'll meet your next
BFF.
Tamara Kindred (00:30):
Now let's get into it, how I met my BFF.
Leisa Reed (00:34):
Welcome to another episode of how I met my BFF.
Susan Shapiro Barash (00:38):
Hi, Tamara. How are you?
Tamara Kindred (00:40):
Hey, Lisa. I'm good. How are you?
Leisa Reed (00:42):
I'm good. I can't wait to share with you. I for
all of our besties out there, Igot a new gynecologist. What?
And I'm really excited because Igot I know you totally wanna
hear this.
Right? You know, first thing inthe morning. I got all these
cool, new bioidentical hormonereplacement, what, creams and
(01:09):
pills and bells and whistlesthat I'm gonna I'm gonna start
using. So I'm really, reallyexcited about it.
Tamara Kindred (01:16):
Nice. I, yeah, I did not expect it to pivot this
way. But I guess in the sameboat, last week, I got pellets
for the third time. This is mythird hormone replacement
pellets, and it's just amazinghow quickly and how you can feel
so much better. I highlyrecommend them.
(01:38):
It's pretty awesome. So, yeah, Ifeel you. I get you.
Leisa Reed (01:42):
I'm, like, deep in, like, doctor Mary Claire Haver's
world. I finished, I think,since the like, over the last
month, I've read two of herbooks and, like, deep diving,
and I'm, like, on a mission forevery woman over 40 to go find a
doctor or medical professionalwho can support you in your
(02:03):
hormone balancing and get thatestrogen back to balance and
whatever it is that you need todo. So that's our, like, public
service announcement for today.Perfect. Go do it.
And I am excited because we havea expert guest today, and her
name is Susan Shapiro Barash,and she is an author of not just
(02:25):
one, not two, but 17 books andan expert in friendship.
Welcome, Susan. How are youtoday?
Susan Shapiro Barash (02:33):
Thank you for having me on. I'm good. Glad
to be here.
Leisa Reed (02:36):
Yes. And so you just released your seventeenth book.
Eighteenth. Eighteenth book. Ohmy gosh.
Okay. Eighteenth. Seventeen plusone is 18. Okay. So 18 books.
It's I'd imagine why it would behard to keep track of that
after, you know, 17 kids thatyou've birthed. Right? Have your
18 Yeah. Absolutely. What's thetitle of your newest book that
(02:59):
just came out?
Susan Shapiro Barash (03:00):
My new book just out is called
Estranged, How Strained FemaleFriendships Are Mended or Ended.
Leisa Reed (03:10):
And so we're gonna do a deep dive into that today
because I think that's probablya concept we mostly don't
intentionally think about. Like,we have friends by happenstance
or circumstance or proximity,and then it's not a relationship
that has a formal endingnecessarily. So I think I'm
(03:33):
really excited to hear yourexpertise. One of the questions
I had before we dive into thisbook is, like, what made you
decide to study friendship atall? Because I read this is your
eighteenth book.
So why friendship?
Susan Shapiro Barash (03:47):
Well, so 14 of my books have been
nonfiction written under my realname, and four books are written
under my pen name, SusannaMarin. And those are and those
novels really in terms of thecharacters and the secrets and
what happens among friends andwomen is it's really a
(04:09):
reflection of my research for mynonfiction books. So this is my
book on friendship. I also wrotea book called toxic friends, and
I also wrote a book calledtripping the prom queen, the
truth about women and rivalry.But I've also done several
studies on the role of wife inAmerica and what that entails.
(04:30):
And I've looked at how womenfeel as mothers and daughters
and mothers in law and daughtersin law and single women and
rivals and foes. But friendshipis almost always an aspect of my
studies of each study. Becauseeven when I wrote about why
(04:50):
these women would say, but theonly person who really
understands is my best friend orthe person who betrayed me
during, you know, the time I wascontemplating divorce was
actually someone I considered afriend. So we see friendships,
female friendships, veryimportant and very rewarding,
(05:12):
but also the dark side is thatsome of these friendships can
fail us and thus this study.
Leisa Reed (05:19):
Well, there of all the things that a person can
study and all the things thatyou started to pay attention to,
why personally do you thinkfriendship stood out?
Susan Shapiro Barash (05:32):
Because we live in a patriarchal culture,
Lisa. And in a patriarchy, thereis not as much power as we all
know that women can gain andsustain. And so we are
multilayered, multitasking. Wewear different hats. Our
(05:55):
ambition is harder earned thanfor men because they have so
much supremacy.
And our female friendships aremeant to be our safe harbor. And
with these friendships, we'remeant to be understood,
respected, and recognized. So ifit really fails us, then often
(06:19):
women tell me they feel quiteuntethered and quite insecure.
And, also, there's that salientquestion, what do we do? Because
we're taught that we're bestfriends forever, and we hope to
be best friends forever.
But what if it's really notgoing that way?
Leisa Reed (06:39):
Yeah. I can imagine too that I would just was
thinking as you were talkingabout sometimes I'll hear women
say, oh, I don't get along withwomen or women are catty or,
yeah, I'm more I'm more a personwho hangs out with, you know, I
have more male friends. And Iwell, for me, I'm very blessed
(07:00):
that I've always had amazingfemale friendships, so I don't
have that same thought. But Iwould imagine that's probably
because they got hurt pretty badat one point by a female
relationship.
Susan Shapiro Barash (07:13):
That's very true based on my research
because for this book, Iinterviewed a 50 women, a very
diverse group in terms of age,race, ethnicity, level of
education, you know, socialstrata where they live in the
country. Tried to get everystate. And whether women were 22
(07:34):
or 79 years old and all of thein between, the kind of grief
that accompanies a failed femalefriendship is really, really a
serious thing. And the sense ofbeing disenfranchised, taken out
of the group, or just left aloneor unsupported accompanies that
(08:00):
kind of breakup. And at the sametime, we know how to leave an
unhappy love partner.
We know how to get divorced.We're not surprised to hear
about it, but we don't know howto break up if the friendship is
now on a negative heel insteadof a positive one.
Leisa Reed (08:18):
And, you know, in your book, talk about, like,
this suboptimal relationship.This friendship that started,
and then it's it's somethingturned, and now it's not
fruitful. How does someone knowwhen they're in that? Like, when
the friendship is suboptimal?How would you even know that
(08:39):
that happened?
Susan Shapiro Barash (08:40):
Well, it can be subtle and cumulative,
meaning, you know, because Ihave these different categories
of friends that were devised forthe book as a result of
listening to the 50 women. Andplus, I have a survey at the
end, so it was a result of that.But but but what do women who
(09:02):
have a kind of slow fade with afemale friend feel is anxiety,
no longer understood in the sameway as if the person they're
turning to isn't there for themany longer. So they realize how
it's now descending. On theother hand, there are also these
(09:24):
inciting incidents where youwouldn't stay with the friend
after a certain egregious act,including stealing a boyfriend,
stealing a really important ideaat work, or being so separate in
terms of your political beliefs,so so, you know, not on the same
(09:48):
wavelength in a very divisivetime in our history, These are
much more latent neon signs.
So these friendships can breakup over either a very kind of
long list of disappointments orsomething so specific.
Leisa Reed (10:10):
I'm gonna ask a self serving question, if that's
okay. So I have friends on bothsides of the political spectrum,
and I I I and I'm sure I'm notthe only one who has this
question of, like, how do youjust because we don't see eye to
eye politically, that doesn'tmean I want to end the
friendship or, you know, viceversa. But how do we navigate
(10:32):
that? I'm sure that's on a lotof people's minds right now. How
do you how would you bestapproach that when you have a
friend who's on a differentside?
Susan Shapiro Barash (10:42):
It's a very complicated chapter. I've
all chapter on that.
Leisa Reed (10:46):
Oh, it's the whole chapter. See? I knew it. Like,
that's your next book. Book 19.
It's
Susan Shapiro Barash (10:50):
the whole thing. And and what's so
interesting about it is whenwhen we're I call it
diametrically opposed. Whenwe're in that situation, some
some women many women say, youknow what? I care about this
friend more than I care abouther her beliefs that are not not
(11:13):
mine. We don't share the samevalues anymore, but I care about
the friendships the friendship.
And other women say, I can't bewith someone who feels this way.
The other it's not justpolitics, but there was a lot
about vaccine and and aboutraising children and they're
(11:35):
being inoculated or not. And soI heard a lot of young women
talking about that in this studyand how, in the end, one of the
two friends just in the dyadsaid, I I can't do this another
minute. I can't be with someonewho does it the way you do it.
And other women say, I don'twanna lose the friend.
(11:58):
So, like so we see both. I guesswhat really happens because I
too have friends on both sides.What really happens is we pick
and choose our conversationscarefully when we're together so
that there isn't all the tensionthat comes with these volatile
issues.
Tamara Kindred (12:17):
I feel like it's getting just especially in this
administration, it just feelsmore so much more difficult than
ever before, because it everyoneis so divided. I mean, we've
been through many, you know,different parties through our
our life and have but I I haveto say in my experience, like,
(12:40):
it's just gotten so huge and,you know, down you know, I I
have a group of friends, and ofthem is just like, I just
literally can't talk to thisother person because the fact
that she believes what shebelieves is just it's it's human
it's unkind in, you know,humanity is her you know, like
(13:05):
and so it's just been a verydifferent climate.
Susan Shapiro Barash (13:10):
Do you still Tamara, do you still speak
to her? I mean, do you still seeeach other, or do you feel like
it's a wedge in theirfriendship? I'm just curious.
Tamara Kindred (13:18):
I do. I try to be the peacemaker. And like you
said, not it's a it's more offriendship with a group of
women. And and I try to be, Iguess, more of the peacemaker
and just like, let's just wedon't you know, we're we know
where each person stands onthis, and we don't need to
(13:38):
necessarily talk about it. Butto where some other friends were
like, this is our life, andwe're going through this.
What do you mean we can't talkabout it? And and it's like,
yeah, I I under I completelyunderstand. But, yeah, we are I
feel like we're in a kind ofright at a crossroads right now
of, like especially if this isgonna continue for the next four
(13:59):
years, you know, I can see somefriendships completely
dissolving because it it justfeels like since January 21,
things have gotten morestressed.
Susan Shapiro Barash (14:11):
Well, we we this is a this situation is
so extreme. Yeah. It's soexplosive that it really churns
up our personal lives, and Ithink it has to be factored in.
However, in this chapter Iwrote, of course, politics as
and worldview are a big part ofit. But, also, I interviewed
(14:35):
friends who had the same valuesand the same hopes for their
lives and then became quitedisparate.
So let me give you an example. Ispoke with two women who said
that they had wanted us youngwomen to really both marry have
careers, marry, have children.And when their paths really
(15:00):
veered and one ended up withthat and the other did not, it
would you know, so that each ofthem was attracted more to the
mirroring friend, the friend whohad the exact same relationship,
to husband, children, or towork, singlehood, that they felt
(15:21):
like they couldn't be closeanymore to the point where
sometimes it was a deal breaker.But what you said is correct,
that the most, incendiarysituation of all is really
politics and what's happening inthe country. And the big
decision as of as friends is tolook at your history and
(15:46):
consider what the relationshipmeans before and hopefully
after.
And some of these relationships,some of these friendships can be
saved and some cannot.
Tamara Kindred (15:58):
What was Oh, go ahead.
Susan Shapiro Barash (15:59):
Sorry. Muneka.
Tamara Kindred (16:01):
Wives, what do you do if a friend that you're
trying to communicate and workthrough this does not respond,
essentially ghosts a person? Howdo you handle that?
Susan Shapiro Barash (16:14):
So I have a whole section on ghosting
Leisa Reed (16:17):
the book. Oh, man. So many more books to write.
Tamara Kindred (16:19):
This this also might help with dating as well.
Susan Shapiro Barash (16:22):
Yeah. Right? Yeah. The ghosting really
affects female friendships. Veryclose ones.
This book is not about thefriend because you go to the gym
the same time, three times aweek. This is about a friend who
has traded secrets, honored youryour your your secrets. You the
(16:42):
trust has been at the bottom andthe center and the top of the
friendship. These are really,really close friendships that
we're looking at and why theseend up often these days being
ending up in estrangement. Andso what I wanted to talk about
is the because, Tamara, youdescribed the friend as being
(17:04):
reluctant as I just understoodit to to face it more than
you've and you feel more likeit's there and it needs to be
addressed.
So for the estranged and soshe's ghosting. The estranger,
the one who estranges and can gosometimes to leave. There can be
a blow up. Oftentimes, becausewomen don't like conflict, it's
(17:28):
a slow fade. But for thefriendship to be tanking or at
the worst or shape shifting in aserious way in a more moderate
situation.
The estranger is the one who'sreally getting it going, and the
(17:48):
estrangee is the person at theend receiving the kind of
ghosting or the you know, justall of the distance. And what's
so interesting, I think, aboutthe women with whom I spoke is
that some of them, even as theestrangie being at the receiving
end of this, they say, you knowwhat? She probably did the right
(18:11):
thing. We really had too muchtension, or we weren't really
authentic friends anymore. Andthe estranged also really
suffers.
I miss her, but there wasnothing more there. I miss her,
but we didn't look alike thesame you know, whatever the
story I've all differentstories. But there are two
(18:32):
things that are so important, Ithink. One is that we really
feel it. It's a it's it hastremendous emotional impact to
lose what you have with a friendwho's so cherished.
And, again, because we're femalein a male dominated world, the
(18:52):
friendship has so many so manythings about it that keep us
happy and and fulfilled. Andthen the other side of it, which
is what I'm hearing that'sreally trending, which is I was
empowered by leaving, and I andI never could have done it
(19:13):
before. And I thought bestfriends were forever. I
mentioned before, women believethat. But I'm actually finding
healthier friendships on theother side of this.
True best friends forever.
Leisa Reed (19:28):
How do you like, I'm so lucky that Tamara and I met
when we were 12 and had plentyof time to hang out and do all
the fun things to develop arelationship our friendship, you
know, pretty easily and thatit's maintained. But and I have
a couple of newer best friends,but it's definitely been
(19:50):
organic. Like, it's so if you'rein a situation where you're
like, I would love a bestfriend. How do I get one? Like,
how how do you do that?
How what advice would you havefor people?
Susan Shapiro Barash (20:03):
Well, women really want to be
included. They want to belong.Belonging is very essential for
women. So sometimes, since youused the word organic, sometimes
we meet new friends just bywhere we're at in our lives. And
that's why the idea that thisstudy started with women, like,
(20:26):
say, early twenties and went allthe way to 80 was really
fascinating to me becausewhatever stage we're at, we're
longing for the same kind ofcloseness among our female
friends.
And some female friends arereally a duo, and some are very
(20:49):
much a part of a group. Andgroups are trickier because
sometimes they're hierarchical.And if you are unhappy with one
of the friends in that group,you are risking belonging to the
entire group. So it it's morenuanced, and it's it's there's
(21:11):
more at risk and at stake in away. But to find new friends is
to really put yourself out therejust as women often do for a
love relationship.
You know, it's interesting. Idon't think there's a website.
Hey. Would you be my new BFF?
Leisa Reed (21:27):
There should be.
Susan Shapiro Barash (21:28):
There should be.
Leisa Reed (21:29):
There literally should be a friendship, quote,
unquote, dating site, meaning,
Susan Shapiro Barash (21:33):
like There is.
Tamara Kindred (21:34):
Is there a It's on Bumble.
Leisa Reed (21:37):
There is about this before, and I forgot. Yeah.
Susan Shapiro Barash (21:41):
But but but there should be also it's
almost a test, you know, toreally understand because so
many of the women said, I didn'tstay with this friend, this, you
know, whole other part of thebook. I didn't feel respected.
And then other women say, youknow, it was all they didn't use
this word. I did. I'mhierarchical.
(22:01):
You know? I'm important to heruntil she's with the new group.
And then we grow apart some wejust have completely different
lives. And so we're all cravingthe closeness, but we're also
moving into different stages.And and finding a new friend is
(22:22):
often about being in a new townor being you know, maybe you
join the newcomers group or workfriends, a whole other thing,
right, in terms of the level oftrust and intimacy and what
happens when you leave or sheleaves or she gets promoted and
you don't get promoted, of thosefrictions.
But also, you know, a lot ofwomen said, I met my best
(22:45):
friends when my kids were threeand they were all in preschool
together. Or, you know, I met mybest friend because she too
didn't feel like getting marriedand have kids. And we just ended
up having all these intereststhat we shared and no
distractions or demands that theour other friends have. So
(23:09):
there's a lot of do you know thetheory of homogamy, you know,
like with like? Mhmm.
So we often, in femalefriendships, sort of cotton to
the person who's reflective,who's similar to us. Oh, we're
both from the Midwest buttransplanted to New York. Oh, we
both moved to LA because wethought, at first, we could get
(23:30):
into the movie business.Whatever sort of dream you had
that fits. So there's a lot ofcommonality, but then there are
also friends where it'sinteresting where they're not at
all alike, and yet they soappreciate each other.
They're all
Leisa Reed (23:47):
like that. Yeah. With my we call it girls in the
hood, and it's in our community.There's six of us, and we're
very different. But we all livein the same community.
So we support each other indifferent ways than having the
the one thing we have in commonis where we live.
Susan Shapiro Barash (24:07):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Leisa Reed (24:08):
And that we are also looking out for each other. So
we have that in common. Likelike, it takes a community kind
of mindset. But if you looked atus individually, you'd be like,
wow. They don't have anything incommon or they have very little
in common.
So, it's been really special tohave this group form because I
think I'm more like what youwere saying before about, like,
(24:29):
the one on one friendship. Like,I tend to have individual
friendships, and maybe they allkinda know each other because
they were at my birthday partyone year, but then they don't
really, like, interact too muchtogether. Where Tamara has more
the like, a group we have both.We both have both, but, like,
you kinda always have a posse.Do I?
(24:50):
I think so, but maybe not.
Tamara Kindred (24:52):
Yeah. I mean, I have a good group of friends
from here, Hawaii. It would befun to we a couple years ago,
we, went to Italy, and there was10 of us. And, talk about that
would be an interesting to be afly on the wall to watch that
whole thing go down. It's noteveryone.
(25:12):
It was mostly all the nine otherpeople were all connected
through me. Some had met eachother, some had not. It was like
and then we're traveling in aforeign country, and it was
quite a interesting experimentand and experience. But I think
we all came through on the otherside as you know, I may not,
(25:35):
like, reach out to each otherall the time, but we're still
that group that all got to go toItaly together.
Susan Shapiro Barash (25:40):
How did it go? No trauma?
Leisa Reed (25:43):
A little bit, but it wasn't I mean, considering those
factors
Susan Shapiro Barash (25:48):
You there?
Leisa Reed (25:49):
Yeah. I was there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
That was fine. I thinkconsidering the factors that we
were traveling, moving lots ofmoving parts, jet lag, all
different kinds of activitiesthat we did and the Right. Just
of each other, I think we Iwould give us still, would give
us, like, an maybe a minus. Youknow? Like, yes.
There were some times where itwas like, I can't take it
(26:11):
anymore. What you know, we had acouple of minor snafus, I guess.
Tamara Kindred (26:15):
But wine also is a part of it, so that didn't
help.
Leisa Reed (26:19):
But I think overall, I was really impressed because
it could've gone really sidewaysin my opinion.
Susan Shapiro Barash (26:25):
Yeah. We like that. And we we see
sometimes where you don't reallyknow someone until you're put in
a certain, you know, venue. Soyou discover things. I mean,
maybe one of the friends wasfrightened of heights, and you
(26:46):
were supposed to take amonorailer.
You know, someone was morefearful about I don't know.
Leisa Reed (26:54):
Oh, we had seasickness, and so it was,
like, half the group, which I ampart of that group that gets
seasick. Half some of themdidn't know they got seasick
until we were literally, like,in it. But Hello? I was so
grateful that there were a bunchof other people who also wanted
to get off the boat becauseTamara can stay on the boat all
day.
Susan Shapiro Barash (27:14):
But you see, this this really
underscores the point how welearn about our friends through
circumstances and theirreactions. And often it works,
but there are other you know, inthis study, in my book, I'm also
looking at friends who wereshockingly betrayed by a friend,
(27:36):
you know, sort of as I saidbefore, the darker side or felt
that the friend really no longertreated her well, which we
talked about. But the I I havetwo chapters that are, you know,
about really dicey friendships.One is called the the green eyed
friend. So jealousy is somethingthat you really don't want in
(27:57):
these friendships and oftentakes a while to understand, you
know, to really know that thisfriend is actually jealous or
that you as their friend arejealous.
So that's something that can bea real deal breaker. And and
also the thieving friend wherethe friend takes your idea or,
(28:22):
you know, the man in your lifethat or another friend. How
about if she really in thegroup, she really decides that
that one has to be her specialfriend while she while you
brought her into the group. Iinterviewed a woman like that.
So when it's really not kindtreatment and yet you so trust
(28:44):
this or trusted this person,that's that's when it really
gets difficult.
Tamara Kindred (28:52):
Yeah. I did did you do any research on I mean,
I'm just talking from my ownexperience, but I've lost two
really good friends due togrief, I'd say, or death just in
I my oldest daughter passedaway. And I have two friends
(29:17):
that you know, we've beenfriends for years, but they it
just, like, they couldn't theirwords were, like, they just
couldn't handle the sadness inmy life even though I wasn't,
like, in the corner huddled up,but, you know, maybe needed more
than what I had needed before.And I've seen how grief can
shatter relationships, which isso sad because, you know, that
(29:40):
was probably the most time Ineeded friends. Did you do any
type of have you looked intothat?
Susan Shapiro Barash (29:45):
Yes. I interviewed. It it I'm so sorry
for you Oh, thank you. For yourfamily. I did.
I interviewed one woman. Iinterviewed several, but the one
that I decided to showcase was awoman who said that she had lost
a very young daughter and thatthis friend was so not there for
(30:09):
her. And that even the husbandswere trying to explain it. She
couldn't deal with it. It wasshe just couldn't be there
because she was almost sotraumatized.
But the friend who had sufferedthe loss really needed the
friend and found her not therein her hour of need. So for her,
(30:32):
it was that the friend was nomatter what the friend's story
was, this woman was unspeakablyaggrieved. And so she felt that
that didn't didn't showcase ahealthy, supportive, go beyond
yourself kind of friendship thatshe needed. So, yeah, it was a
(30:55):
deal breaker for her. So Iunderstand exactly what you're
saying.
I believe in this life based onmy research that in times of
great need and in times of greatjoy, we learn who is really
there for us. Because some ofthe women in the study, in my
(31:19):
book, said that they felt thatwhen they had great news, their
friends couldn't be as enthusedas they had hoped them to be,
And that was sort of a red flag.So we that goes back to, is this
friend really there for you?Mhmm. Is she really there
through thick and thin?
And now we're talking we justspoke about the worst thing
(31:40):
ever. And then a woman wastelling me about some really
great news, and her friendwasn't there. And how about the
friend in this book? The friendswho kind of leave their friends
behind when life gets better. SoI spoke to a group of women.
I spoke to this woman, and sherepresented her story as a group
(32:04):
of women, all very close, alldivorced with children
struggling. And one of themfound, like, the best job and
the best man, and she was reallytransported. And the woman I
interviewed said, all thoseyears that we got each other
through, could she not thinkmaybe he had a friend? Could she
(32:29):
not know that I couldn't evenget scholarships for my kids to
get into school? She knows.
She knows what I wanted becausethey all wanted the same thing,
and this one got it. So thatkind of tension and this sense
that you're not really importantanymore, it is very it's again,
(32:49):
you just lose the friend.
Leisa Reed (32:52):
And I know we've we've been talking about this
book, which I'm imaginingthere's obviously way more than
we've even chatted about todayin the book, and it's called
estranged. Just wanna share thatwith our besties. And we will
put the link to that book in theshow notes as well so you can
get it. You can find it onAmazon or any other, you know,
(33:13):
places that you can purchase abook, but it's called estranged.
And it's by Susan ShapiroBarash, but you'll see that on
there.
I just wanna make sure and sopeople know where to get that.
And the subtitle is how strainedfemale friendships can be mended
or ended. So, again, I lovethat. It's just bringing
intentionality to yourrelationships. And I as, you
(33:37):
know, Tamara and I are like,hey, man.
Your best friend, that thatfriendship can be one of the
most significant relationshipsin your life. And so you wanna
have intention around it. So Ireally appreciate your
Susan Shapiro Barash (33:50):
These female friendships are so
significant is because wechoose. We don't choose family,
including our sisters orsiblings, but, you know, we're
talking about females. We weseek out this friend. We bond by
choice. So when it isn't reallyworking, it can be devastating.
Tamara Kindred (34:16):
Well, on as to wrap up the show, I wanted to
ask you, Susan, if you were withyour best friend right now, what
would you guys go and do?
Susan Shapiro Barash (34:28):
I love this question. Well, because I
love museums and I love takingwalks, I would say, let's go to
a museum for an hour and thenlet's walk and talk.
Leisa Reed (34:40):
Oh, beautiful. Very nice. Sounds very calming, very
enriching. And enriching isgreat. It is enriching.
Of course, if we were in, say, acity, I would say and if we see
a bookstore, like, a very niceclothing store, you know, nice
window, we could maybe saunterin as well. I love it. That's so
(35:01):
beautiful. Well, I'm excitedthat your book came out, and I
think you are bringing a lot ofneeded conversation to society,
to the world, and givingattention to women specifically.
More of that is needed as youheard from our beginning opening
of like, women need attention inall areas in our health and in
(35:22):
our relationships, and we're nottaken anywhere.
We're not gonna be ignored.
Susan Shapiro Barash (35:27):
Yay.
Leisa Reed (35:29):
So women, and we love men too, and we love men
supporting women. So yay. Thankyou, and, you know, we're gonna
wish you the best. And besties,we will see you on our next
episode. So thank you, Susan.
Susan Shapiro Barash (35:44):
Thank you for having me on. So lovely to
spend time with both of you.
Tamara Kindred (35:48):
Thank you.
Leisa Reed (35:52):
Hey, bestie. Thanks for listening. If you like this
episode, be sure to hit thatsubscribe button to get notified
of new episodes and check outcool Bestie gift ideas at
howImetmybff.com.
Tamara Kindred (36:03):
That's right. And also leave us a review.
Those reviews help us out a lotand are one of the best ways to
support us.
Leisa Reed (36:09):
Yes. And if you have a fun story about how you met
your BFF, send us an email atinfo@howImetmyBFF.com. We would
love to hear about it.
Tamara Kindred (36:18):
Definitely. And, hey, maybe we'll have you on our
next episode.
Leisa Reed (36:22):
That would be awesome. Until next time.
Tamara Kindred (36:25):
Love you, BFFs.
Hey, besties. My name's Lisa.
Tamara Kindred (00:03):
And my name's Tamara, and we're BFFs.
Leisa Reed (00:06):
Tamara and I met when we were about 12 years old
growing up in good oldFairbanks, Alaska.
Tamara Kindred (00:11):
And we've been best friends forever since.
Leisa Reed (00:13):
That's right. And that's why we've decided to have
some fun, friendly conversationswith the bestest of best
friends.
Tamara Kindred (00:18):
We'll talk about how we became best friends, our
experiences together, and haveother best friends on the show
to share how they met.
Leisa Reed (00:26):
Who knows? You never know when you'll meet your next
BFF.
Tamara Kindred (00:30):
Now let's get into it, how I met my BFF.
Leisa Reed (00:34):
Welcome to another episode of how I met my BFF.
Susan Shapiro Barash (00:38):
Hi, Tamara. How are you?
Tamara Kindred (00:40):
Hey, Lisa. I'm good. How are you?
Leisa Reed (00:42):
I'm good. I can't wait to share with you. I for
all of our besties out there, Igot a new gynecologist. What?
And I'm really excited because Igot I know you totally wanna
hear this.
Right? You know, first thing inthe morning. I got all these
cool, new bioidentical hormonereplacement, what, creams and
(01:09):
pills and bells and whistlesthat I'm gonna I'm gonna start
using. So I'm really, reallyexcited about it.
Tamara Kindred (01:16):
Nice. I, yeah, I did not expect it to pivot this
way. But I guess in the sameboat, last week, I got pellets
for the third time. This is mythird hormone replacement
pellets, and it's just amazinghow quickly and how you can feel
so much better. I highlyrecommend them.
(01:38):
It's pretty awesome. So, yeah, Ifeel you. I get you.
Leisa Reed (01:42):
I'm, like, deep in, like, doctor Mary Claire Haver's
world. I finished, I think,since the like, over the last
month, I've read two of herbooks and, like, deep diving,
and I'm, like, on a mission forevery woman over 40 to go find a
doctor or medical professionalwho can support you in your
(02:03):
hormone balancing and get thatestrogen back to balance and
whatever it is that you need todo. So that's our, like, public
service announcement for today.Perfect. Go do it.
And I am excited because we havea expert guest today, and her
name is Susan Shapiro Barash,and she is an author of not just
(02:25):
one, not two, but 17 books andan expert in friendship.
Welcome, Susan. How are youtoday?
Susan Shapiro Barash (02:33):
Thank you for having me on. I'm good. Glad
to be here.
Leisa Reed (02:36):
Yes. And so you just released your seventeenth book.
Eighteenth. Eighteenth book. Ohmy gosh.
Okay. Eighteenth. Seventeen plusone is 18. Okay. So 18 books.
It's I'd imagine why it would behard to keep track of that
after, you know, 17 kids thatyou've birthed. Right? Have your
18 Yeah. Absolutely. What's thetitle of your newest book that
(02:59):
just came out?
Susan Shapiro Barash (03:00):
My new book just out is called
Estranged, How Strained FemaleFriendships Are Mended or Ended.
Leisa Reed (03:10):
And so we're gonna do a deep dive into that today
because I think that's probablya concept we mostly don't
intentionally think about. Like,we have friends by happenstance
or circumstance or proximity,and then it's not a relationship
that has a formal endingnecessarily. So I think I'm
(03:33):
really excited to hear yourexpertise. One of the questions
I had before we dive into thisbook is, like, what made you
decide to study friendship atall? Because I read this is your
eighteenth book.
So why friendship?
Susan Shapiro Barash (03:47):
Well, so 14 of my books have been
nonfiction written under my realname, and four books are written
under my pen name, SusannaMarin. And those are and those
novels really in terms of thecharacters and the secrets and
what happens among friends andwomen is it's really a
(04:09):
reflection of my research for mynonfiction books. So this is my
book on friendship. I also wrotea book called toxic friends, and
I also wrote a book calledtripping the prom queen, the
truth about women and rivalry.But I've also done several
studies on the role of wife inAmerica and what that entails.
(04:30):
And I've looked at how womenfeel as mothers and daughters
and mothers in law and daughtersin law and single women and
rivals and foes. But friendshipis almost always an aspect of my
studies of each study. Becauseeven when I wrote about why
(04:50):
these women would say, but theonly person who really
understands is my best friend orthe person who betrayed me
during, you know, the time I wascontemplating divorce was
actually someone I considered afriend. So we see friendships,
female friendships, veryimportant and very rewarding,
(05:12):
but also the dark side is thatsome of these friendships can
fail us and thus this study.
Leisa Reed (05:19):
Well, there of all the things that a person can
study and all the things thatyou started to pay attention to,
why personally do you thinkfriendship stood out?
Susan Shapiro Barash (05:32):
Because we live in a patriarchal culture,
Lisa. And in a patriarchy, thereis not as much power as we all
know that women can gain andsustain. And so we are
multilayered, multitasking. Wewear different hats. Our
(05:55):
ambition is harder earned thanfor men because they have so
much supremacy.
And our female friendships aremeant to be our safe harbor. And
with these friendships, we'remeant to be understood,
respected, and recognized. So ifit really fails us, then often
(06:19):
women tell me they feel quiteuntethered and quite insecure.
And, also, there's that salientquestion, what do we do? Because
we're taught that we're bestfriends forever, and we hope to
be best friends forever.
But what if it's really notgoing that way?
Leisa Reed (06:39):
Yeah. I can imagine too that I would just was
thinking as you were talkingabout sometimes I'll hear women
say, oh, I don't get along withwomen or women are catty or,
yeah, I'm more I'm more a personwho hangs out with, you know, I
have more male friends. And Iwell, for me, I'm very blessed
(07:00):
that I've always had amazingfemale friendships, so I don't
have that same thought. But Iwould imagine that's probably
because they got hurt pretty badat one point by a female
relationship.
Susan Shapiro Barash (07:13):
That's very true based on my research
because for this book, Iinterviewed a 50 women, a very
diverse group in terms of age,race, ethnicity, level of
education, you know, socialstrata where they live in the
country. Tried to get everystate. And whether women were 22
(07:34):
or 79 years old and all of thein between, the kind of grief
that accompanies a failed femalefriendship is really, really a
serious thing. And the sense ofbeing disenfranchised, taken out
of the group, or just left aloneor unsupported accompanies that
(08:00):
kind of breakup. And at the sametime, we know how to leave an
unhappy love partner.
We know how to get divorced.We're not surprised to hear
about it, but we don't know howto break up if the friendship is
now on a negative heel insteadof a positive one.
Leisa Reed (08:18):
And, you know, in your book, talk about, like,
this suboptimal relationship.This friendship that started,
and then it's it's somethingturned, and now it's not
fruitful. How does someone knowwhen they're in that? Like, when
the friendship is suboptimal?How would you even know that
(08:39):
that happened?
Susan Shapiro Barash (08:40):
Well, it can be subtle and cumulative,
meaning, you know, because Ihave these different categories
of friends that were devised forthe book as a result of
listening to the 50 women. Andplus, I have a survey at the
end, so it was a result of that.But but but what do women who
(09:02):
have a kind of slow fade with afemale friend feel is anxiety,
no longer understood in the sameway as if the person they're
turning to isn't there for themany longer. So they realize how
it's now descending. On theother hand, there are also these
(09:24):
inciting incidents where youwouldn't stay with the friend
after a certain egregious act,including stealing a boyfriend,
stealing a really important ideaat work, or being so separate in
terms of your political beliefs,so so, you know, not on the same
(09:48):
wavelength in a very divisivetime in our history, These are
much more latent neon signs.
So these friendships can breakup over either a very kind of
long list of disappointments orsomething so specific.
Leisa Reed (10:10):
I'm gonna ask a self serving question, if that's
okay. So I have friends on bothsides of the political spectrum,
and I I I and I'm sure I'm notthe only one who has this
question of, like, how do youjust because we don't see eye to
eye politically, that doesn'tmean I want to end the
friendship or, you know, viceversa. But how do we navigate
(10:32):
that? I'm sure that's on a lotof people's minds right now. How
do you how would you bestapproach that when you have a
friend who's on a differentside?
Susan Shapiro Barash (10:42):
It's a very complicated chapter. I've
all chapter on that.
Leisa Reed (10:46):
Oh, it's the whole chapter. See? I knew it. Like,
that's your next book. Book 19.
It's
Susan Shapiro Barash (10:50):
the whole thing. And and what's so
interesting about it is whenwhen we're I call it
diametrically opposed. Whenwe're in that situation, some
some women many women say, youknow what? I care about this
friend more than I care abouther her beliefs that are not not
(11:13):
mine. We don't share the samevalues anymore, but I care about
the friendships the friendship.
And other women say, I can't bewith someone who feels this way.
The other it's not justpolitics, but there was a lot
about vaccine and and aboutraising children and they're
(11:35):
being inoculated or not. And soI heard a lot of young women
talking about that in this studyand how, in the end, one of the
two friends just in the dyadsaid, I I can't do this another
minute. I can't be with someonewho does it the way you do it.
And other women say, I don'twanna lose the friend.
(11:58):
So, like so we see both. I guesswhat really happens because I
too have friends on both sides.What really happens is we pick
and choose our conversationscarefully when we're together so
that there isn't all the tensionthat comes with these volatile
issues.
Tamara Kindred (12:17):
I feel like it's getting just especially in this
administration, it just feelsmore so much more difficult than
ever before, because it everyoneis so divided. I mean, we've
been through many, you know,different parties through our
our life and have but I I haveto say in my experience, like,
(12:40):
it's just gotten so huge and,you know, down you know, I I
have a group of friends, and ofthem is just like, I just
literally can't talk to thisother person because the fact
that she believes what shebelieves is just it's it's human
it's unkind in, you know,humanity is her you know, like
(13:05):
and so it's just been a verydifferent climate.
Susan Shapiro Barash (13:10):
Do you still Tamara, do you still speak
to her? I mean, do you still seeeach other, or do you feel like
it's a wedge in theirfriendship? I'm just curious.
Tamara Kindred (13:18):
I do. I try to be the peacemaker. And like you
said, not it's a it's more offriendship with a group of
women. And and I try to be, Iguess, more of the peacemaker
and just like, let's just wedon't you know, we're we know
where each person stands onthis, and we don't need to
(13:38):
necessarily talk about it. Butto where some other friends were
like, this is our life, andwe're going through this.
What do you mean we can't talkabout it? And and it's like,
yeah, I I under I completelyunderstand. But, yeah, we are I
feel like we're in a kind ofright at a crossroads right now
of, like especially if this isgonna continue for the next four
(13:59):
years, you know, I can see somefriendships completely
dissolving because it it justfeels like since January 21,
things have gotten morestressed.
Susan Shapiro Barash (14:11):
Well, we we this is a this situation is
so extreme. Yeah. It's soexplosive that it really churns
up our personal lives, and Ithink it has to be factored in.
However, in this chapter Iwrote, of course, politics as
and worldview are a big part ofit. But, also, I interviewed
(14:35):
friends who had the same valuesand the same hopes for their
lives and then became quitedisparate.
So let me give you an example. Ispoke with two women who said
that they had wanted us youngwomen to really both marry have
careers, marry, have children.And when their paths really
(15:00):
veered and one ended up withthat and the other did not, it
would you know, so that each ofthem was attracted more to the
mirroring friend, the friend whohad the exact same relationship,
to husband, children, or towork, singlehood, that they felt
(15:21):
like they couldn't be closeanymore to the point where
sometimes it was a deal breaker.But what you said is correct,
that the most, incendiarysituation of all is really
politics and what's happening inthe country. And the big
decision as of as friends is tolook at your history and
(15:46):
consider what the relationshipmeans before and hopefully
after.
And some of these relationships,some of these friendships can be
saved and some cannot.
Tamara Kindred (15:58):
What was Oh, go ahead.
Susan Shapiro Barash (15:59):
Sorry. Muneka.
Tamara Kindred (16:01):
Wives, what do you do if a friend that you're
trying to communicate and workthrough this does not respond,
essentially ghosts a person? Howdo you handle that?
Susan Shapiro Barash (16:14):
So I have a whole section on ghosting
Leisa Reed (16:17):
the book. Oh, man. So many more books to write.
Tamara Kindred (16:19):
This this also might help with dating as well.
Susan Shapiro Barash (16:22):
Yeah. Right? Yeah. The ghosting really
affects female friendships. Veryclose ones.
This book is not about thefriend because you go to the gym
the same time, three times aweek. This is about a friend who
has traded secrets, honored youryour your your secrets. You the
(16:42):
trust has been at the bottom andthe center and the top of the
friendship. These are really,really close friendships that
we're looking at and why theseend up often these days being
ending up in estrangement. Andso what I wanted to talk about
is the because, Tamara, youdescribed the friend as being
(17:04):
reluctant as I just understoodit to to face it more than
you've and you feel more likeit's there and it needs to be
addressed.
So for the estranged and soshe's ghosting. The estranger,
the one who estranges and can gosometimes to leave. There can be
a blow up. Oftentimes, becausewomen don't like conflict, it's
(17:28):
a slow fade. But for thefriendship to be tanking or at
the worst or shape shifting in aserious way in a more moderate
situation.
The estranger is the one who'sreally getting it going, and the
(17:48):
estrangee is the person at theend receiving the kind of
ghosting or the you know, justall of the distance. And what's
so interesting, I think, aboutthe women with whom I spoke is
that some of them, even as theestrangie being at the receiving
end of this, they say, you knowwhat? She probably did the right
(18:11):
thing. We really had too muchtension, or we weren't really
authentic friends anymore. Andthe estranged also really
suffers.
I miss her, but there wasnothing more there. I miss her,
but we didn't look alike thesame you know, whatever the
story I've all differentstories. But there are two
(18:32):
things that are so important, Ithink. One is that we really
feel it. It's a it's it hastremendous emotional impact to
lose what you have with a friendwho's so cherished.
And, again, because we're femalein a male dominated world, the
(18:52):
friendship has so many so manythings about it that keep us
happy and and fulfilled. Andthen the other side of it, which
is what I'm hearing that'sreally trending, which is I was
empowered by leaving, and I andI never could have done it
(19:13):
before. And I thought bestfriends were forever. I
mentioned before, women believethat. But I'm actually finding
healthier friendships on theother side of this.
True best friends forever.
Leisa Reed (19:28):
How do you like, I'm so lucky that Tamara and I met
when we were 12 and had plentyof time to hang out and do all
the fun things to develop arelationship our friendship, you
know, pretty easily and thatit's maintained. But and I have
a couple of newer best friends,but it's definitely been
(19:50):
organic. Like, it's so if you'rein a situation where you're
like, I would love a bestfriend. How do I get one? Like,
how how do you do that?
How what advice would you havefor people?
Susan Shapiro Barash (20:03):
Well, women really want to be
included. They want to belong.Belonging is very essential for
women. So sometimes, since youused the word organic, sometimes
we meet new friends just bywhere we're at in our lives. And
that's why the idea that thisstudy started with women, like,
(20:26):
say, early twenties and went allthe way to 80 was really
fascinating to me becausewhatever stage we're at, we're
longing for the same kind ofcloseness among our female
friends.
And some female friends arereally a duo, and some are very
(20:49):
much a part of a group. Andgroups are trickier because
sometimes they're hierarchical.And if you are unhappy with one
of the friends in that group,you are risking belonging to the
entire group. So it it's morenuanced, and it's it's there's
(21:11):
more at risk and at stake in away. But to find new friends is
to really put yourself out therejust as women often do for a
love relationship.
You know, it's interesting. Idon't think there's a website.
Hey. Would you be my new BFF?
Leisa Reed (21:27):
There should be.
Susan Shapiro Barash (21:28):
There should be.
Leisa Reed (21:29):
There literally should be a friendship, quote,
unquote, dating site, meaning,
Susan Shapiro Barash (21:33):
like There is.
Tamara Kindred (21:34):
Is there a It's on Bumble.
Leisa Reed (21:37):
There is about this before, and I forgot. Yeah.
Susan Shapiro Barash (21:41):
But but but there should be also it's
almost a test, you know, toreally understand because so
many of the women said, I didn'tstay with this friend, this, you
know, whole other part of thebook. I didn't feel respected.
And then other women say, youknow, it was all they didn't use
this word. I did. I'mhierarchical.
(22:01):
You know? I'm important to heruntil she's with the new group.
And then we grow apart some wejust have completely different
lives. And so we're all cravingthe closeness, but we're also
moving into different stages.And and finding a new friend is
(22:22):
often about being in a new townor being you know, maybe you
join the newcomers group or workfriends, a whole other thing,
right, in terms of the level oftrust and intimacy and what
happens when you leave or sheleaves or she gets promoted and
you don't get promoted, of thosefrictions.
But also, you know, a lot ofwomen said, I met my best
(22:45):
friends when my kids were threeand they were all in preschool
together. Or, you know, I met mybest friend because she too
didn't feel like getting marriedand have kids. And we just ended
up having all these intereststhat we shared and no
distractions or demands that theour other friends have. So
(23:09):
there's a lot of do you know thetheory of homogamy, you know,
like with like? Mhmm.
So we often, in femalefriendships, sort of cotton to
the person who's reflective,who's similar to us. Oh, we're
both from the Midwest buttransplanted to New York. Oh, we
both moved to LA because wethought, at first, we could get
(23:30):
into the movie business.Whatever sort of dream you had
that fits. So there's a lot ofcommonality, but then there are
also friends where it'sinteresting where they're not at
all alike, and yet they soappreciate each other.
They're all
Leisa Reed (23:47):
like that. Yeah. With my we call it girls in the
hood, and it's in our community.There's six of us, and we're
very different. But we all livein the same community.
So we support each other indifferent ways than having the
the one thing we have in commonis where we live.
Susan Shapiro Barash (24:07):
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Leisa Reed (24:08):
And that we are also looking out for each other. So
we have that in common. Likelike, it takes a community kind
of mindset. But if you looked atus individually, you'd be like,
wow. They don't have anything incommon or they have very little
in common.
So, it's been really special tohave this group form because I
think I'm more like what youwere saying before about, like,
(24:29):
the one on one friendship. Like,I tend to have individual
friendships, and maybe they allkinda know each other because
they were at my birthday partyone year, but then they don't
really, like, interact too muchtogether. Where Tamara has more
the like, a group we have both.We both have both, but, like,
you kinda always have a posse.Do I?
(24:50):
I think so, but maybe not.
Tamara Kindred (24:52):
Yeah. I mean, I have a good group of friends
from here, Hawaii. It would befun to we a couple years ago,
we, went to Italy, and there was10 of us. And, talk about that
would be an interesting to be afly on the wall to watch that
whole thing go down. It's noteveryone.
(25:12):
It was mostly all the nine otherpeople were all connected
through me. Some had met eachother, some had not. It was like
and then we're traveling in aforeign country, and it was
quite a interesting experimentand and experience. But I think
we all came through on the otherside as you know, I may not,
(25:35):
like, reach out to each otherall the time, but we're still
that group that all got to go toItaly together.
Susan Shapiro Barash (25:40):
How did it go? No trauma?
Leisa Reed (25:43):
A little bit, but it wasn't I mean, considering those
factors
Susan Shapiro Barash (25:48):
You there?
Leisa Reed (25:49):
Yeah. I was there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
That was fine. I thinkconsidering the factors that we
were traveling, moving lots ofmoving parts, jet lag, all
different kinds of activitiesthat we did and the Right. Just
of each other, I think we Iwould give us still, would give
us, like, an maybe a minus. Youknow? Like, yes.
There were some times where itwas like, I can't take it
(26:11):
anymore. What you know, we had acouple of minor snafus, I guess.
Tamara Kindred (26:15):
But wine also is a part of it, so that didn't
help.
Leisa Reed (26:19):
But I think overall, I was really impressed because
it could've gone really sidewaysin my opinion.
Susan Shapiro Barash (26:25):
Yeah. We like that. And we we see
sometimes where you don't reallyknow someone until you're put in
a certain, you know, venue. Soyou discover things. I mean,
maybe one of the friends wasfrightened of heights, and you
(26:46):
were supposed to take amonorailer.
You know, someone was morefearful about I don't know.
Leisa Reed (26:54):
Oh, we had seasickness, and so it was,
like, half the group, which I ampart of that group that gets
seasick. Half some of themdidn't know they got seasick
until we were literally, like,in it. But Hello? I was so
grateful that there were a bunchof other people who also wanted
to get off the boat becauseTamara can stay on the boat all
day.
Susan Shapiro Barash (27:14):
But you see, this this really
underscores the point how welearn about our friends through
circumstances and theirreactions. And often it works,
but there are other you know, inthis study, in my book, I'm also
looking at friends who wereshockingly betrayed by a friend,
(27:36):
you know, sort of as I saidbefore, the darker side or felt
that the friend really no longertreated her well, which we
talked about. But the I I havetwo chapters that are, you know,
about really dicey friendships.One is called the the green eyed
friend. So jealousy is somethingthat you really don't want in
(27:57):
these friendships and oftentakes a while to understand, you
know, to really know that thisfriend is actually jealous or
that you as their friend arejealous.
So that's something that can bea real deal breaker. And and
also the thieving friend wherethe friend takes your idea or,
(28:22):
you know, the man in your lifethat or another friend. How
about if she really in thegroup, she really decides that
that one has to be her specialfriend while she while you
brought her into the group. Iinterviewed a woman like that.
So when it's really not kindtreatment and yet you so trust
(28:44):
this or trusted this person,that's that's when it really
gets difficult.
Tamara Kindred (28:52):
Yeah. I did did you do any research on I mean,
I'm just talking from my ownexperience, but I've lost two
really good friends due togrief, I'd say, or death just in
I my oldest daughter passedaway. And I have two friends
(29:17):
that you know, we've beenfriends for years, but they it
just, like, they couldn't theirwords were, like, they just
couldn't handle the sadness inmy life even though I wasn't,
like, in the corner huddled up,but, you know, maybe needed more
than what I had needed before.And I've seen how grief can
shatter relationships, which isso sad because, you know, that
(29:40):
was probably the most time Ineeded friends. Did you do any
type of have you looked intothat?
Susan Shapiro Barash (29:45):
Yes. I interviewed. It it I'm so sorry
for you Oh, thank you. For yourfamily. I did.
I interviewed one woman. Iinterviewed several, but the one
that I decided to showcase was awoman who said that she had lost
a very young daughter and thatthis friend was so not there for
(30:09):
her. And that even the husbandswere trying to explain it. She
couldn't deal with it. It wasshe just couldn't be there
because she was almost sotraumatized.
But the friend who had sufferedthe loss really needed the
friend and found her not therein her hour of need. So for her,
(30:32):
it was that the friend was nomatter what the friend's story
was, this woman was unspeakablyaggrieved. And so she felt that
that didn't didn't showcase ahealthy, supportive, go beyond
yourself kind of friendship thatshe needed. So, yeah, it was a
(30:55):
deal breaker for her. So Iunderstand exactly what you're
saying.
I believe in this life based onmy research that in times of
great need and in times of greatjoy, we learn who is really
there for us. Because some ofthe women in the study, in my
(31:19):
book, said that they felt thatwhen they had great news, their
friends couldn't be as enthusedas they had hoped them to be,
And that was sort of a red flag.So we that goes back to, is this
friend really there for you?Mhmm. Is she really there
through thick and thin?
And now we're talking we justspoke about the worst thing
(31:40):
ever. And then a woman wastelling me about some really
great news, and her friendwasn't there. And how about the
friend in this book? The friendswho kind of leave their friends
behind when life gets better. SoI spoke to a group of women.
I spoke to this woman, and sherepresented her story as a group
(32:04):
of women, all very close, alldivorced with children
struggling. And one of themfound, like, the best job and
the best man, and she was reallytransported. And the woman I
interviewed said, all thoseyears that we got each other
through, could she not thinkmaybe he had a friend? Could she
(32:29):
not know that I couldn't evenget scholarships for my kids to
get into school? She knows.
She knows what I wanted becausethey all wanted the same thing,
and this one got it. So thatkind of tension and this sense
that you're not really importantanymore, it is very it's again,
(32:49):
you just lose the friend.
Leisa Reed (32:52):
And I know we've we've been talking about this
book, which I'm imaginingthere's obviously way more than
we've even chatted about todayin the book, and it's called
estranged. Just wanna share thatwith our besties. And we will
put the link to that book in theshow notes as well so you can
get it. You can find it onAmazon or any other, you know,
(33:13):
places that you can purchase abook, but it's called estranged.
And it's by Susan ShapiroBarash, but you'll see that on
there.
I just wanna make sure and sopeople know where to get that.
And the subtitle is how strainedfemale friendships can be mended
or ended. So, again, I lovethat. It's just bringing
intentionality to yourrelationships. And I as, you
(33:37):
know, Tamara and I are like,hey, man.
Your best friend, that thatfriendship can be one of the
most significant relationshipsin your life. And so you wanna
have intention around it. So Ireally appreciate your
Susan Shapiro Barash (33:50):
These female friendships are so
significant is because wechoose. We don't choose family,
including our sisters orsiblings, but, you know, we're
talking about females. We weseek out this friend. We bond by
choice. So when it isn't reallyworking, it can be devastating.
Tamara Kindred (34:16):
Well, on as to wrap up the show, I wanted to
ask you, Susan, if you were withyour best friend right now, what
would you guys go and do?
Susan Shapiro Barash (34:28):
I love this question. Well, because I
love museums and I love takingwalks, I would say, let's go to
a museum for an hour and thenlet's walk and talk.
Leisa Reed (34:40):
Oh, beautiful. Very nice. Sounds very calming, very
enriching. And enriching isgreat. It is enriching.
Of course, if we were in, say, acity, I would say and if we see
a bookstore, like, a very niceclothing store, you know, nice
window, we could maybe saunterin as well. I love it. That's so
(35:01):
beautiful. Well, I'm excitedthat your book came out, and I
think you are bringing a lot ofneeded conversation to society,
to the world, and givingattention to women specifically.
More of that is needed as youheard from our beginning opening
of like, women need attention inall areas in our health and in
(35:22):
our relationships, and we're nottaken anywhere.
We're not gonna be ignored.
Susan Shapiro Barash (35:27):
Yay.
Leisa Reed (35:29):
So women, and we love men too, and we love men
supporting women. So yay. Thankyou, and, you know, we're gonna
wish you the best. And besties,we will see you on our next
episode. So thank you, Susan.
Susan Shapiro Barash (35:44):
Thank you for having me on. So lovely to
spend time with both of you.
Tamara Kindred (35:48):
Thank you.
Leisa Reed (35:52):
Hey, bestie. Thanks for listening. If you like this
episode, be sure to hit thatsubscribe button to get notified
of new episodes and check outcool Bestie gift ideas at
howImetmybff.com.
Tamara Kindred (36:03):
That's right. And also leave us a review.
Those reviews help us out a lotand are one of the best ways to
support us.
Leisa Reed (36:09):
Yes. And if you have a fun story about how you met
your BFF, send us an email atinfo@howImetmyBFF.com. We would
love to hear about it.
Tamara Kindred (36:18):
Definitely. And, hey, maybe we'll have you on our
next episode.
Leisa Reed (36:22):
That would be awesome. Until next time.
Tamara Kindred (36:25):
Love you, BFFs.
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