May 20, 2025 • 30 mins
Theatre Director
Broadway director Oliver Butler - two times Obie Award winner - shares the financial realities of theater directing and his journey from being a backstage child to acclaimed director of "What the Constitution Means to Me."
Perhaps most valuable are Butler's hard-earned insights for aspiring directors. His paradoxical relationship with theater—loving the art form and community while feeling financially heartbroken by it—resonates with anyone navigating the intersection of creative passion and economic survival. Oliver is currently working on a musical about Mary Pinchot Meyer, the woman who gave LSD to JFK, which demonstrates his continuing pursuit of unique, compelling stories.
Topics
0:00 Confidence in the Creative World
0:59 What the constitution means to me?
4:15 From backstage child to director.
10:14 What's the pay on Broadway?
17:56 Director's pay vs. administration
22:06 Advice for a aspiring directors.
27:17 The challenge
Oliver's instagram page https://www.instagram.com/explore/search/keyword/?q=oliverbutler
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Music credit: Kate Pierson & Monica Nation
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
There are full-blown idiots in the world who get so
many great things, sometimesbecause they are unable to even
conceive of themselves not beinggood enough.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi and welcome back to another episode of how Much
Can I Make.
Before we jump into today'sconversation, I'd love it if you
could take a moment to followthe show or leave us a review.
It really helps us grow, andthank you.
Today's guest is the acclaimedtheater director, oliver Butler.
He's been directing plays onBroadway and off Broadway for
(00:36):
years, so let's dive right inand hear his story.
First of all, thank you so muchfor giving us your time.
You know, I contacted you afterI saw what the Constitution
means to me, which you directedon Broadway.
I was flabbergasted.
This was the best play I'veseen in years.
Not an easy play to direct, inmy opinion, so I wanted to know
(00:59):
how did it come about?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, I worked on it in total for probably like seven
or eight years.
We started in 2017, went toBroadway in 2019.
It started touring in 2020.
And then it toured through andafter COVID by a few years.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So is it still touring, by the way, because
it's so timely?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
No, but it is the last couple of years it was the
most produced play in america,which is very exciting and I I
think it will continue in a lotof ways like that, whether the
most produced or just heavilyproduced, because I think it
speaks to a lot of differentcommunities and, you know, with
a small cast, I think it's alsosomething that you know,
(01:42):
regional places and theaters andschools and whatnot who want to
do something important can doon a budget.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Everybody's talking about the Constitution now.
It really should be everywhere,yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I mean, I haven't even really looked at the script
recently about.
You know, we've made changesthroughout the life of it.
We started in 2017.
At that point, me Too hadn'teven happened, because Heidi
came to me in early 2017, askedme to work on it for a 10
performance run at Club Thumb,which is like a small 70 seat
downtown space.
We did it for 10 shows.
(02:13):
It sold out.
We didn't allow reviews becausewe wanted some time to work.
Then we took it to Berkeley,california.
We did it in Berkeley for afull run and then we brought it
back to New York TheaterWorkshop for a full run there
and then moved it to theGreenwich Street Theater for an
extension and then, about amonth later, we moved it to
Broadway and then, afterBroadway closed a week later, we
(02:34):
took it to the Kennedy Center,now run by Trump, which there's
no way we would have beenbrought in there under, uh, his,
you know, brilliant creativeleadership.
Uh, I don't know if air quotesuh come through in uh, uh
podcasts, but um, and we, we didit there for I don't know a
(02:58):
weekend or something.
You know huge theater.
And then, pretty soon after, westarted rehearsing the tour.
You know you have a show thatis written by Heidi Schreck,
that is written about her life.
You never know anything isgoing to work and then the
question is can someone elseplay the role?
You know, maria Dizia is one ofthe great actresses of our time
(03:18):
, and so is Cassie Beck.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I saw it with Heidi.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
You saw it with Heidi and we learned with Maria oh,
other people can do this.
It still works, and I thinkthat has then extended out to
these regional productions.
You know, I get messages everyonce in a while from people who
have seen the show or otherpeople who have played the role,
and I love seeing the likephotos on Instagram of other
people doing so.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
How did you get into directing to begin with?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
My mother is an actress.
My father was an actor.
My mother Pamela Payton Wright.
My father was David Butler.
You know they were here makingplays back in the old days like
60s, 70s, 80s.
My mom was only an actor herwhole life.
My dad was an actor and a stagemanager and a director.
He was actually performing inHamlet in Washington DC when I
(04:04):
was born.
You know there's photos of himin like Shakespearean tights.
You know meeting me for thefirst time.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
So as a kid, did you spend time in the theater
watching them or going torehearsal?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Yeah, I was backstage all the time.
I was basically like raised bytechnicians and backstage people
.
I, you know, I watched theselike great American plays again
and again and again from thewings and so I do credit, even
though I didn't know I wanted tobe a director and, if anything,
seeing how hard the life was insome ways was like a deterrent,
I think I for a long time I waslike maybe I'll just be a, I'd
like to be a lawyer.
(04:42):
I think I just wanted to dosomething made a lot of money
and now I sort of regret notdoing that.
In some way I'm now stuck withthe life I've chosen.
But I do think watching playsfrom the wings and watching,
like both the tech, thetechnical parts happening
backstage and actors going from,you know, being my my sort of
(05:03):
found aunts and uncles, toplaying characters on stage my
mother being my mother offstageand literally walking on stage
and playing someone else'smother on stage it gave me sort
of an appreciation and a lovefor not just the story happening
on stage but sort of how it wasbeing made around it and which
has carried over into the kindof work I, like you know I have
(05:24):
an interest in the ability fortheater to present the different
layers of reality.
We are people facing the samedirection, imagining that other
people are other people.
To me, it's all so false andthat sort of choice to believe
something together, to imaginesomething together, with the
obvious falseness, like staringright at you to me is like all
(05:47):
the magic of it.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Did you ever want to be an actor like your parents?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I did a little bit of acting.
I was up at Williamstown in1998 as an acting apprentice and
I guess I thought I would doacting.
I did a few shows up there andI left that summer after doing a
lot of different things, and Iwent back to my school and I
started my own directing programat the University of
Connecticut.
Oh, I was like, you know, I'llrun an independent theater here
(06:11):
and use all the actors whoaren't being used on the main
stage and I'll also assist allthe directors coming in.
And I just became like thestudent director in the school.
And then eventually theystarted giving me cash for
productions, productions becausethey were like oh, this is like
a great way to add value to theprogram.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So then you always like to directing right.
That's where you wanted to say.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I always like directing.
I mean, I think I am suited toit in a lot of ways.
I am going through like amidlife period right now where I
really am questioning everydecision I've ever made I know
I'm good at it which I was notable to say for most of my life.
I think I was sort of going onlike vibes and instincts, but
you know, I had a sense of whatI was doing.
Now I actually feel like asense of facility.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Is it because your play made it to Broadway that
you?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
feel this way.
I, you know, maybe some of thatstuff helps.
I think it's honestly just time.
It's like excitement,heartbreak, excitement,
heartbreak.
In some ways, like the idea ofbecoming a director actually
seems so impossible and to havelike a life where you like made
your you know, you made yourincome, like directing, like
(07:20):
seemed like it would never bepossible.
But I just had this sort oflike hope that it would sort of
work out so when somebody comesto you with a project, what
grabs you?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
first?
The play itself, the actorsthat are attached to it.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
It's never the actors attached, although I guess
sometimes that happens.
Usually I'm there for like, theattaching of the actors.
I I work with people, notprojects, which maybe is also
like one of my sort ofchallenges, like I fall in love
with people and what I think theartist is gonna do.
So my most successfulcollaborations have been with
(07:55):
people who I've like already anexisting relationship with and
whose work in general I like.
The play ends up being sort oflike the current manifestation
of who that person is and if Ilike the person and their body
of work, then I usually go intoa piece sort of curious about,
like what they're trying to do.
This time I mean I've directedmore Will Eno plays than Will
(08:19):
Eno plays.
Will Eno is one of, I mean, manygreat talented writer friends.
I think Will is a living legendwho also I'm surprised that
Will Eno doesn't have a geniusgrant or something.
If you know, give a Guggenheimand a MacArthur to Will Eno.
He's like one of you know ahandful of, I think, like the
great living authors who shouldbe celebrated while he's here
(08:42):
and alive and making stuff, whoshould be celebrated while he's
here and alive and making stuff.
I work with Will and a handfulof other artists on anything
that they bring me, because I'mnot trying to find the perfect
play for me.
I'm trying to see how thisartist is manifested in as far
as plays, I love plays with alittle bit of meta-theatrical
play, a little bit of theshowing of the frame.
I love a really well-told, ahandful of, like, deeply
(09:04):
profound surprises.
I like people who have a senseof form, who see, like, the
structure in the play, peoplewho understand that, like
theater is a structural art,it's storytelling, but it's like
storytelling within structure.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
How many months does it take to put a production on
Broadway, let's say on the smallregional theater or something?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I'll basically say my estimation is this minimum for
a new play.
You're doing three weeks ofrehearsal in the rehearsal room
followed by, let's say, a weekof tech.
This is all minimum, right.
So that's, you know, four weeksfollowed by probably two weeks
of previews.
Two to three weeks of previews,you know, and then you have
opening.
So that's like the minimum oflike six weeks.
(09:45):
Right before that, I estimateyou have at least six weeks of
pre-production.
That is, you're hiringdesigners and working with
designers to develop the conceptof the show.
You're casting actors andfinding the right.
That casting can be anywherefrom one week to three weeks of
time.
You are meeting with people inthe theater and the playwright
(10:06):
to develop the thing, get itready.
I estimate minimum it's sixweeks of pre-production.
So three months.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Wow, Three months.
I assume Broadway pays you verywell for production right.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yes, you make good money on Broadway and like for a
Broadway production.
If you're like a first timedirector, I think you're making
like 26 to $30,000 plus another26 to $30,000 as an advance on
royalty For the entire time, theentire time you work.
I would say Marab your facelooked shocked.
(10:37):
And most of the time when Itell people like what you
actually make now look, ifyou're Alex Timbers or Rachel
Chavkin with like a long runningBroadway show, the money comes
afterwards in royalties.
But if you're just gettinghired to do a Broadway show,
like it's around like 30 grandto do the show right, and this
is the top, this is the top tieragain, 30 grand plus, you'll
(10:59):
get an advance on royalties.
Now that advance is like.
So let's say I got paid 60grand to do Broadway.
I don't make anything abovethat 60 until that 30 grand has
been accounted for in royalties.
After I've been reimbursed bythe royalties, then I will get a
weekly percentage.
Now, over the course of workingon Constitution, we did the
(11:20):
Amazon filming of it.
You know we had anotherdirector come in and like film
it.
I made my entire fee again.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Oh, that's good, so that's pretty sweet.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So 60 grand plus 60 grand plus royalties, plus the
tour where I got paid again torehearse the tour.
I forget what that fee wasexactly, but it was good.
My estimate is that I probablymade something like $300,000
over the six to seven years thatI was working on that show, and
(11:49):
I would be psyched to beworking for $30,000 to $60,000
every time I do a show.
But I'm also like I'm someonewho's been maybe even stubbornly
like in the downtown and, Iguess, allergic to money or
something.
But it is like the reality oflike, okay, I'm like $300,000.
Also, though, I'll say 300,000is more than I've made directing
(12:14):
, probably in my whole career upuntil Constitution.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Right.
So that's what I want to know.
This is Broadway pay, but whathappens to a director that works
on a small theater, which mostof the work is?
What can they make?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So I haven't actually checked the numbers recently,
like different theaters havevoluntarily chosen to raise
their rates.
You know, I would call out likeNew York Theater Workshop, soho
, rep, playwrights, horizons asof a couple of years ago again
I'd have to like check this, buta second stage theater at one
of the big nonprofits and that'slike a hundred seat theater but
(12:50):
it's a part of a theater thathas a main stage.
They would probably.
I think the fee was somethinglike $7,000.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
For the entire production.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, for the entire production for a hundred seat
theater.
Now on again as of a couple ofyears ago, some of the bigger
theaters which we're also paying, you know, union minimums, like
we're in a union.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So 7,000 is the union minimum.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
But for a small theater.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
For a small theater.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I'm not in defense of it, I'm just saying like, yeah,
let me give you the like, thelayout.
So I can say, a small theater onthe low end pays seven, but
I've been paid $4,000 to directa play, a theater of that size
as well.
Different theaters of differentbudgets have different minimums
.
At the Public Theater, forexample, at least a few years
ago, they were paying like$12,000 to $13,000.
(13:40):
But then at, like you know, newYork Theater Workshop, they
chose to raise their fees forartists a few thousand dollars
above the minimum that theyshould be paying.
But most of the theaters in NewYork one, you get paid less in
general at New York nonprofitsthan you do at nonprofits in the
rest of the country, and NewYork is a more expensive place
to live, right, right?
(14:00):
So what's happening is, youknow so like, the union
negotiates minimums and then allof the theaters just pay the
minimums.
Now the union also identifiesin the contract that I've signed
, every contract that we'vesigned, the first page of the
union contract says nothing inthis contract shall keep a
director from negotiating betterterms.
(14:22):
On page two, you have the mostfavored nation's language saying
we will not pay anyone elsemore than you.
So my con I mean, I'm not alegal expert my contract reaches
into everyone else's contractsand prevents them from
negotiating.
Cause I tried.
When I got offered the sevengrand I had sort of had it.
I was like, look, I know it's asmall theater and everything I
(14:42):
was like, but I should try andnegotiate.
So I told my agent, let'snegotiate it up.
And they came back and saidwell, we have favored nations,
so favored nations is you payeverybody the same.
You pay everyone the same.
Here's the challenge of it, andI started like digging further
into this as well, because I waslike, yeah, I want everyone to
get paid the same.
I guess, like I, that seemsgood, but the fact that we
(15:04):
across the board have no abilityto negotiate above a minimum,
it means like we should stopnegotiating minimums and instead
we should negotiate a rate.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
right but I want to be clear after you were on
broadway and your success, youalso won an obi at some point,
right?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I I sort of technically two.
I have a directing obi and Ihave an obi with the debate
society.
So yeah, two, two obi.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I've won a bunch of after all of that, that's what
they give you seven thousanddollars for a production yes,
and just to be clear, I'mtalking about the small.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
You know a smaller yes, of course I think as a
younger artist I was like wow,this is great, it's fair,
everyone gets the same.
And in my 30s, making 30 or 40thousand dollars a year
directing plays felt like atotal win.
Yes, you know, at 47, it's justnot.
It's not cute anymore.
You can't pay your rent, and ifyou're not, then someone else
(15:55):
is making up the difference.
Either you know family money orsaved money or partner's money.
The theater is being subsidized, of course, by donors who are
giving to the theater, but thetheater is also being subsidized
by by the artists.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
But wait a minute.
In film, when a director winseither an Oscar or whatever
award they win, don't they feeimmediately goes up?
Yes, so, what's wrong with your?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
union.
Here's the thing the union hasset the minimum right.
The problem is, even thoughit's set under this idea that
you should be able to negotiateabove it, it is rarely done in
New York City.
It's different regionally.
I am sure at a theater thatdoesn't do favored nations, I
can get better fees.
My agent has absolutelynegotiated better terms in
(16:44):
places where you can.
The problem is I live in NewYork City.
I would love to work in NewYork City more.
City, I would love to work inNew York City more.
I started to try and offer myjob to other people in the world
.
So, like I did this with Uberdrivers, where I basically you
know, I said okay, I'm a theaterdirector, do you have a sense
of what a theater director is?
And they're like, yeah, theylike make all the decisions you
(17:06):
know for a play.
And you know I was like do youhave a sense of how like
important a theater director isto a production?
They're like.
I was like do you have a senseof how important a theater
director is to a production?
They're like, yeah, reallyimportant.
I was like, yeah.
So I want you to imagine if youwere a theater director and
you're going to work for threemonths.
It might be on and off and thensix weeks, but it's three
months of work.
There's a lot of prestige,right, so people will look up to
(17:28):
you.
You get to be in a position ofpower.
There's like a lot of benefitsto it.
Would you take this job forseven grand?
And the Uber driver's like no,what?
And I was like okay, okay, 10grand.
He was like no, 13 grand, no,15 grand.
No, I said okay, what would youneed to do this job for three
months?
And they were like I don't know, 20, $25,000.
(17:50):
I was going and speaking at adonor event.
You know they bring us out togo talk to the donors to help,
like you know, develop moreincome through donation and be
like, ah, the director Applausearound the revered director,
right, and I go outside fromthat event.
My name's on the marquee and Idid the math and I was like
they're paying me like $45,000 ayear and I can go online and
(18:14):
see what the artistic directoris making.
It just seems out of balance.
It feels weird to be likerevered and also hiding how
poorly compensated you are.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It would make me very angry.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And there are a few examples in the theater industry
, where some of theseinstitutions have huge staffs
and the people at the top aremaking a lot of money.
It is public knowledge thatOscar Eustace is making between
a million and 1.2 milliondollars a year right.
(18:47):
Now he's the artistic directorof the public, I understand, and
so like should he make what Imake for a whole production?
Three months of work in twodays?
So he's getting paid in twodays, or three days or four days
, what you know, a directorwould be paid for an entire
production.
So I look at that that's oneexample and honestly, I don't
(19:09):
paint every theater under thesame like, with the same brush,
right?
But I look at it and I say like, just like, make it, make sense
to me.
How important is the director?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So what keeps you going?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I just need to keep doing this and I'm trying to do
meaningful work.
I'm trying to find, like youknow, unique stories.
I'm trying to bring like myspecial sauce to the thing and
either I keep doing that until Ihave like a Broadway musical
hit Do you want to do a musical?
Oh sure, yeah, I'm working on amusical with Craig Lucas right
now and Emily Hall about thewoman who gave LSD to JFK.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Oh, I want to see that.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Mary Pinchot Meyer.
Yeah, oh, wow.
She was way ahead of her time,spoiler.
She was probably murdered bythe CIA.
It's a very interesting storyabout an interesting time, about
conspiracies and the story wetell ourselves to survive.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
And where will you produce it?
What theater would that be in?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
No idea, no idea, we're still writing it, so
hopefully.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
It has a great potential, though the story yeah
.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Wow, what advice would you give somebody that has
a dream?
You know, when you love thetheater, you love the theater.
You can't help it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
What advice would you give?
I'm embarrassed that I feellike I have like old guy, like
dad, advice.
Now I think that and I'm nottalking about like your
development as an artist I think, I, truly I think everyone can
be an artist, is an artist ofsome kind.
I think.
Art, making art, making thingstogether, community creation, is
our like birthright.
However, for the life of adirector, you know, and
(20:43):
especially if you are notsomeone who comes from family
cash right, which is in everyindustry.
Right, it is easier if you gotloads of cash.
Everything is easier If youdon't come from lots of cash
right, which is in everyindustry right, it is easier.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
if you got loads of cash, everything is easier.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
If you don't come from lots of cash.
If you want to do this in anylong-term way, you have to find
a way to make the budget work.
I highly recommend havingsomething else that you can do
that creates a level ofstability for you so that you
can strategically do the work,because it will be a period of
time before you make anythingclose to a living wage over the
(21:19):
course of a year, or figure outearly how you're going to pivot
into other ways.
Some directors are directing TVand film.
You have to learn that that isa whole different industry.
Some of the personality maybehelps, some of the vision maybe
helps, but like that is atechnical thing to learn.
Pivot into that.
I've been working on writing.
(21:40):
I have a TV show that I'vedeveloped with playwright
Frankie Gonzalez that we're juststarting to pitch.
I've got other writing projectsthat I'm doing.
I wish I had started the moreinvested sort of writing
development years ago.
I mean I did, but I mean like20 years ago I should have been
like I need to have this otherthing.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Well, hindsight is 20 , 20 to everybody.
I wish I've done things too.
Yeah, you can go by that, yeahthat's right.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
And I so, and there are other jobs.
There are other jobs that youcan do that make money, that
create that stability.
But I think that is my biggestadvice it doesn't have to be a
fallback plan, like the thingthat you do when you decide
you're not good enough to hackit.
It needs to be some sort of athreaded existence where you can
(22:27):
create stability and financialstability and all of the other
stuff while you're continuing todevelop yourself as an artist,
like do it in concert andideally.
You know, I was a carpenter foryears.
I I was.
I was going and building roofdecks for the rich and famous
and then I was like showeringand changing in a in a bathroom
(22:49):
and putting on normal clothesand going to the theater to go
to rehearsal at night.
You know I was like that was howI did it.
I don't recommend it.
It's a tough.
That's a tough day-to-nightBarbie transition but if there
are other things that you candevelop, it will give you the
best chance of existing longenough until you can have that
Broadway musical that changesyour life.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
And can somebody start today?
Would you recommend the way youdid, doing it through a
university, first the dramadepartment.
Is that the best way to start,you think?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I mean, if you're already out of university, great
, do it right.
I think, if you want to start,get a group of people together,
convince them to come and, youknow, say the words you've
written or someone else haswritten.
Put it in a place, decide howyou want it to look like you're
directing and, oddly, I think,even though you won't feel good
at it, you will actuallyeverything about what you are
(23:44):
doing in the first time that youlike set out.
There will be versions of thatgenetic material in your work
for a lifetime.
It's all right there, right?
So I, you know, I ran my owntheater company, the Debate
Society, For years.
We produced all of the stuffourselves.
We had jobs, you know, I wascarpentry.
My partners were working at aMexican restaurant.
(24:06):
We like, you know.
You were three people in theDebate Society right, three
people in the Debate SocietyHannah Boss and Paul Thorine.
You were three people in thedebate society right?
Three people in the debatesociety Hannah Boss and Paul
Thorine who are now celebratedTV writers now and film writers.
And, I think, starting your owncompany, getting a group of
people together.
Don't wait for any organizationor any person to hand you a
career, because there is no HRof theater who's keeping track
(24:30):
of your good work and who'sgoing to give you a raise or a
job on any sort of likepredictable increment.
There are opportunities, youknow.
If that's what you want to doand develop yourself as an
artist, just do it.
Invite people to your apartment, do the reading there, get the
lighting just right.
Go find a space, make a budget,raise the money for it.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
You have to be the maker of it besides a drive that
you must have if you want tosucceed, what would you say?
Other skill is very importantfor a director blind confidence
is right.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I think I'm too hard on myself, like I struggle daily
with just like a level of I'mlike oriented towards like
self-criticism in ways that isnot even like conscious, like.
So, I think being really kindto yourself, celebrate the
little wins, I think trustingyour own creative evolution as a
(25:24):
person.
I did not feel as a youngartist that I had any idea what
I was fucking doing.
I had no idea what I was doing.
I had like instincts and vibes,but now, looking back, I'm like
those instincts and vibes wereconnected to something.
I just felt embarrassed tostand behind them.
So I think, yeah, a level oflike compassion for self and
(25:46):
then whatever the sort of blindconfidence, what I'm getting at
and we can see this in manyother parts of the world, our
political world and everythingthere are full blown idiots in
the world who get so many greatthings, sometimes because they
are unable to even conceive ofthemselves not being good enough
.
And so, you know, whateveractivates a little bit of just
(26:09):
like dumb confidence and vision.
However you get there, I thinkit's, I think it's just good to
practice, as long as it doesn't,you know, push anyone else down
.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Do you still love theater or you prefer to be in
TV now and film because of money?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I don't know where I prefer to be.
I love theater and I amactively looking for a new path
to either create more stabilityin the theater for me for the
rest of my life, or another wayto use my skills in ensemble
playmaking, storymaking,coaching, to use those skills
(26:46):
and manifest my artist self insome other way.
So I love the theater and Ifeel heartbroken by the theater.
I love the people in thetheater.
There are no better people.
I love the theatrical identityand orientation across the world
Theater.
People across the world havevery similar senses of humor.
The world Theater people acrossthe world have very similar
(27:08):
senses of humor.
You can go anywhere and evenwithout language, you can
understand that we're like.
We get it in a way that otherpeople don't.
And I feel heartbroken becauseof the pay.
I guess I don't know.
This is also what I'membarrassed by.
Yeah, I want it to be easierand it's not.
I take responsibility for mypart in that and I also feel
like some structural problemsare preventing it.
(27:30):
Yeah, I'm trying to balance it.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You mentioned before the winning and the losing, the
roller coasters of emotions.
What would you say is thebiggest challenge as a director?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Feeling invisible, you know, like you brought up
Constitution.
Feeling invisible, you know,like you brought up Constitution
.
Constitution was simultaneouslythe most amazing, edifying
experience of my life.
When I went to Broadway andalso on Broadway, I was like I
don't know that I'll everachieve this again.
This may be it.
This may be like as good as it,as good as it.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
I don't know.
I want to tell you that when Iwas sitting in the theater I was
thinking about the director,because this is not an easy play
to direct.
It's a one character withanother little child, you know,
a little bit coming in and out,and I think there was voiceover.
I saw it years ago.
So I mean it's not like amusical.
I believe musical is easy todirect.
You know, it's full of actionand dancing.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
And.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I thought I was sitting there and thinking about
the director, so I don't knowthat.
Actually, that was a goodexample for an invisible
director.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I fully hear you what I'm about to say.
You know there's like littlebits of shame and what I'm about
to say.
Right, but when I looked atconstitution and look, awards
don't matter, right, like, but Idon't think any of our
designers were nominated I, Iwasn't nominated for anything.
I can hear the voices of likeoh my God, the big secret is out
(28:52):
.
Oliver wants to win some awardsand I have.
I like.
Who am I complaining to?
Who doesn't?
So the challenge I have is thisfeeling of like, invisibleness
and this lack of feeling thatyou do anything and it leads to
some sort of verifiablestability.
Arts programs are gettinggutted.
A close friend of mine worksfor the food bank in DC and
(29:15):
after they laid off all thosefederal workers, they were out
there raising money for what isthe most immediate thing.
It's like people need to be fed.
I get it.
How do I raise the alarm?
Like I want an easier life andI want to make enough money to
survive.
And also, laid off workers needto eat.
Like, where's the priority?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I get it In the times that we're living now.
I think theater could be sopowerful in making a change.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I mean we've got to step up.
This is what we're made for.
I agree it can be a veryexciting time artistically.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I can't wait to see the one about the woman that
gave LSD to JFK.
Jfk, you said right.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Not RFK.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, JFK it would be good if it was RFK.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, I don't know what he's done.
I don't know if he's takenenough psychedelics.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
It's either too much or too little, all right, and on
that note, thank you so much,of course.
Thank you, murat, thanks amillion.
Okay, okay, bye-bye.
That's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
(30:27):
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
There are full-blown idiots in the world who get so
many great things, sometimesbecause they are unable to even
conceive of themselves not beinggood enough.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi and welcome back to another episode of how Much
Can I Make.
Before we jump into today'sconversation, I'd love it if you
could take a moment to followthe show or leave us a review.
It really helps us grow, andthank you.
Today's guest is the acclaimedtheater director, oliver Butler.
He's been directing plays onBroadway and off Broadway for
(00:36):
years, so let's dive right inand hear his story.
First of all, thank you so muchfor giving us your time.
You know, I contacted you afterI saw what the Constitution
means to me, which you directedon Broadway.
I was flabbergasted.
This was the best play I'veseen in years.
Not an easy play to direct, inmy opinion, so I wanted to know
(00:59):
how did it come about?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, I worked on it in total for probably like seven
or eight years.
We started in 2017, went toBroadway in 2019.
It started touring in 2020.
And then it toured through andafter COVID by a few years.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So is it still touring, by the way, because
it's so timely?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
No, but it is the last couple of years it was the
most produced play in america,which is very exciting and I I
think it will continue in a lotof ways like that, whether the
most produced or just heavilyproduced, because I think it
speaks to a lot of differentcommunities and, you know, with
a small cast, I think it's alsosomething that you know,
(01:42):
regional places and theaters andschools and whatnot who want to
do something important can doon a budget.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Everybody's talking about the Constitution now.
It really should be everywhere,yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I mean, I haven't even really looked at the script
recently about.
You know, we've made changesthroughout the life of it.
We started in 2017.
At that point, me Too hadn'teven happened, because Heidi
came to me in early 2017, askedme to work on it for a 10
performance run at Club Thumb,which is like a small 70 seat
downtown space.
We did it for 10 shows.
(02:13):
It sold out.
We didn't allow reviews becausewe wanted some time to work.
Then we took it to Berkeley,california.
We did it in Berkeley for afull run and then we brought it
back to New York TheaterWorkshop for a full run there
and then moved it to theGreenwich Street Theater for an
extension and then, about amonth later, we moved it to
Broadway and then, afterBroadway closed a week later, we
(02:34):
took it to the Kennedy Center,now run by Trump, which there's
no way we would have beenbrought in there under, uh, his,
you know, brilliant creativeleadership.
Uh, I don't know if air quotesuh come through in uh, uh
podcasts, but um, and we, we didit there for I don't know a
(02:58):
weekend or something.
You know huge theater.
And then, pretty soon after, westarted rehearsing the tour.
You know you have a show thatis written by Heidi Schreck,
that is written about her life.
You never know anything isgoing to work and then the
question is can someone elseplay the role?
You know, maria Dizia is one ofthe great actresses of our time
(03:18):
, and so is Cassie Beck.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
I saw it with Heidi.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
You saw it with Heidi and we learned with Maria oh,
other people can do this.
It still works, and I thinkthat has then extended out to
these regional productions.
You know, I get messages everyonce in a while from people who
have seen the show or otherpeople who have played the role,
and I love seeing the likephotos on Instagram of other
people doing so.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
How did you get into directing to begin with?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
My mother is an actress.
My father was an actor.
My mother Pamela Payton Wright.
My father was David Butler.
You know they were here makingplays back in the old days like
60s, 70s, 80s.
My mom was only an actor herwhole life.
My dad was an actor and a stagemanager and a director.
He was actually performing inHamlet in Washington DC when I
(04:04):
was born.
You know there's photos of himin like Shakespearean tights.
You know meeting me for thefirst time.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
So as a kid, did you spend time in the theater
watching them or going torehearsal?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Yeah, I was backstage all the time.
I was basically like raised bytechnicians and backstage people
.
I, you know, I watched theselike great American plays again
and again and again from thewings and so I do credit, even
though I didn't know I wanted tobe a director and, if anything,
seeing how hard the life was insome ways was like a deterrent,
I think I for a long time I waslike maybe I'll just be a, I'd
like to be a lawyer.
(04:42):
I think I just wanted to dosomething made a lot of money
and now I sort of regret notdoing that.
In some way I'm now stuck withthe life I've chosen.
But I do think watching playsfrom the wings and watching,
like both the tech, thetechnical parts happening
backstage and actors going from,you know, being my my sort of
(05:03):
found aunts and uncles, toplaying characters on stage my
mother being my mother offstageand literally walking on stage
and playing someone else'smother on stage it gave me sort
of an appreciation and a lovefor not just the story happening
on stage but sort of how it wasbeing made around it and which
has carried over into the kindof work I, like you know I have
(05:24):
an interest in the ability fortheater to present the different
layers of reality.
We are people facing the samedirection, imagining that other
people are other people.
To me, it's all so false andthat sort of choice to believe
something together, to imaginesomething together, with the
obvious falseness, like staringright at you to me is like all
(05:47):
the magic of it.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Did you ever want to be an actor like your parents?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I did a little bit of acting.
I was up at Williamstown in1998 as an acting apprentice and
I guess I thought I would doacting.
I did a few shows up there andI left that summer after doing a
lot of different things, and Iwent back to my school and I
started my own directing programat the University of
Connecticut.
Oh, I was like, you know, I'llrun an independent theater here
(06:11):
and use all the actors whoaren't being used on the main
stage and I'll also assist allthe directors coming in.
And I just became like thestudent director in the school.
And then eventually theystarted giving me cash for
productions, productions becausethey were like oh, this is like
a great way to add value to theprogram.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
So then you always like to directing right.
That's where you wanted to say.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I always like directing.
I mean, I think I am suited toit in a lot of ways.
I am going through like amidlife period right now where I
really am questioning everydecision I've ever made I know
I'm good at it which I was notable to say for most of my life.
I think I was sort of going onlike vibes and instincts, but
you know, I had a sense of whatI was doing.
Now I actually feel like asense of facility.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Is it because your play made it to Broadway that
you?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
feel this way.
I, you know, maybe some of thatstuff helps.
I think it's honestly just time.
It's like excitement,heartbreak, excitement,
heartbreak.
In some ways, like the idea ofbecoming a director actually
seems so impossible and to havelike a life where you like made
your you know, you made yourincome, like directing, like
(07:20):
seemed like it would never bepossible.
But I just had this sort oflike hope that it would sort of
work out so when somebody comesto you with a project, what
grabs you?
Speaker 1 (07:29):
first?
The play itself, the actorsthat are attached to it.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
It's never the actors attached, although I guess
sometimes that happens.
Usually I'm there for like, theattaching of the actors.
I I work with people, notprojects, which maybe is also
like one of my sort ofchallenges, like I fall in love
with people and what I think theartist is gonna do.
So my most successfulcollaborations have been with
(07:55):
people who I've like already anexisting relationship with and
whose work in general I like.
The play ends up being sort oflike the current manifestation
of who that person is and if Ilike the person and their body
of work, then I usually go intoa piece sort of curious about,
like what they're trying to do.
This time I mean I've directedmore Will Eno plays than Will
(08:19):
Eno plays.
Will Eno is one of, I mean, manygreat talented writer friends.
I think Will is a living legendwho also I'm surprised that
Will Eno doesn't have a geniusgrant or something.
If you know, give a Guggenheimand a MacArthur to Will Eno.
He's like one of you know ahandful of, I think, like the
great living authors who shouldbe celebrated while he's here
(08:42):
and alive and making stuff, whoshould be celebrated while he's
here and alive and making stuff.
I work with Will and a handfulof other artists on anything
that they bring me, because I'mnot trying to find the perfect
play for me.
I'm trying to see how thisartist is manifested in as far
as plays, I love plays with alittle bit of meta-theatrical
play, a little bit of theshowing of the frame.
I love a really well-told, ahandful of, like, deeply
(09:04):
profound surprises.
I like people who have a senseof form, who see, like, the
structure in the play, peoplewho understand that, like
theater is a structural art,it's storytelling, but it's like
storytelling within structure.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
How many months does it take to put a production on
Broadway, let's say on the smallregional theater or something?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I'll basically say my estimation is this minimum for
a new play.
You're doing three weeks ofrehearsal in the rehearsal room
followed by, let's say, a weekof tech.
This is all minimum, right.
So that's, you know, four weeksfollowed by probably two weeks
of previews.
Two to three weeks of previews,you know, and then you have
opening.
So that's like the minimum oflike six weeks.
(09:45):
Right before that, I estimateyou have at least six weeks of
pre-production.
That is, you're hiringdesigners and working with
designers to develop the conceptof the show.
You're casting actors andfinding the right.
That casting can be anywherefrom one week to three weeks of
time.
You are meeting with people inthe theater and the playwright
(10:06):
to develop the thing, get itready.
I estimate minimum it's sixweeks of pre-production.
So three months.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Wow, Three months.
I assume Broadway pays you verywell for production right.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yes, you make good money on Broadway and like for a
Broadway production.
If you're like a first timedirector, I think you're making
like 26 to $30,000 plus another26 to $30,000 as an advance on
royalty For the entire time, theentire time you work.
I would say Marab your facelooked shocked.
(10:37):
And most of the time when Itell people like what you
actually make now look, ifyou're Alex Timbers or Rachel
Chavkin with like a long runningBroadway show, the money comes
afterwards in royalties.
But if you're just gettinghired to do a Broadway show,
like it's around like 30 grandto do the show right, and this
is the top, this is the top tieragain, 30 grand plus, you'll
(10:59):
get an advance on royalties.
Now that advance is like.
So let's say I got paid 60grand to do Broadway.
I don't make anything abovethat 60 until that 30 grand has
been accounted for in royalties.
After I've been reimbursed bythe royalties, then I will get a
weekly percentage.
Now, over the course of workingon Constitution, we did the
(11:20):
Amazon filming of it.
You know we had anotherdirector come in and like film
it.
I made my entire fee again.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Oh, that's good, so that's pretty sweet.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So 60 grand plus 60 grand plus royalties, plus the
tour where I got paid again torehearse the tour.
I forget what that fee wasexactly, but it was good.
My estimate is that I probablymade something like $300,000
over the six to seven years thatI was working on that show, and
(11:49):
I would be psyched to beworking for $30,000 to $60,000
every time I do a show.
But I'm also like I'm someonewho's been maybe even stubbornly
like in the downtown and, Iguess, allergic to money or
something.
But it is like the reality oflike, okay, I'm like $300,000.
Also, though, I'll say 300,000is more than I've made directing
(12:14):
, probably in my whole career upuntil Constitution.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Right.
So that's what I want to know.
This is Broadway pay, but whathappens to a director that works
on a small theater, which mostof the work is?
What can they make?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So I haven't actually checked the numbers recently,
like different theaters havevoluntarily chosen to raise
their rates.
You know, I would call out likeNew York Theater Workshop, soho
, rep, playwrights, horizons asof a couple of years ago again
I'd have to like check this, buta second stage theater at one
of the big nonprofits and that'slike a hundred seat theater but
(12:50):
it's a part of a theater thathas a main stage.
They would probably.
I think the fee was somethinglike $7,000.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
For the entire production.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Yeah, for the entire production for a hundred seat
theater.
Now on again as of a couple ofyears ago, some of the bigger
theaters which we're also paying, you know, union minimums, like
we're in a union.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So 7,000 is the union minimum.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
But for a small theater.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
For a small theater.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I'm not in defense of it, I'm just saying like, yeah,
let me give you the like, thelayout.
So I can say, a small theater onthe low end pays seven, but
I've been paid $4,000 to directa play, a theater of that size
as well.
Different theaters of differentbudgets have different minimums
.
At the Public Theater, forexample, at least a few years
ago, they were paying like$12,000 to $13,000.
(13:40):
But then at, like you know, newYork Theater Workshop, they
chose to raise their fees forartists a few thousand dollars
above the minimum that theyshould be paying.
But most of the theaters in NewYork one, you get paid less in
general at New York nonprofitsthan you do at nonprofits in the
rest of the country, and NewYork is a more expensive place
to live, right, right?
(14:00):
So what's happening is, youknow so like, the union
negotiates minimums and then allof the theaters just pay the
minimums.
Now the union also identifiesin the contract that I've signed
, every contract that we'vesigned, the first page of the
union contract says nothing inthis contract shall keep a
director from negotiating betterterms.
(14:22):
On page two, you have the mostfavored nation's language saying
we will not pay anyone elsemore than you.
So my con I mean, I'm not alegal expert my contract reaches
into everyone else's contractsand prevents them from
negotiating.
Cause I tried.
When I got offered the sevengrand I had sort of had it.
I was like, look, I know it's asmall theater and everything I
(14:42):
was like, but I should try andnegotiate.
So I told my agent, let'snegotiate it up.
And they came back and saidwell, we have favored nations,
so favored nations is you payeverybody the same.
You pay everyone the same.
Here's the challenge of it, andI started like digging further
into this as well, because I waslike, yeah, I want everyone to
get paid the same.
I guess, like I, that seemsgood, but the fact that we
(15:04):
across the board have no abilityto negotiate above a minimum,
it means like we should stopnegotiating minimums and instead
we should negotiate a rate.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
right but I want to be clear after you were on
broadway and your success, youalso won an obi at some point,
right?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I I sort of technically two.
I have a directing obi and Ihave an obi with the debate
society.
So yeah, two, two obi.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I've won a bunch of after all of that, that's what
they give you seven thousanddollars for a production yes,
and just to be clear, I'mtalking about the small.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
You know a smaller yes, of course I think as a
younger artist I was like wow,this is great, it's fair,
everyone gets the same.
And in my 30s, making 30 or 40thousand dollars a year
directing plays felt like atotal win.
Yes, you know, at 47, it's justnot.
It's not cute anymore.
You can't pay your rent, and ifyou're not, then someone else
(15:55):
is making up the difference.
Either you know family money orsaved money or partner's money.
The theater is being subsidized, of course, by donors who are
giving to the theater, but thetheater is also being subsidized
by by the artists.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
But wait a minute.
In film, when a director winseither an Oscar or whatever
award they win, don't they feeimmediately goes up?
Yes, so, what's wrong with your?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
union.
Here's the thing the union hasset the minimum right.
The problem is, even thoughit's set under this idea that
you should be able to negotiateabove it, it is rarely done in
New York City.
It's different regionally.
I am sure at a theater thatdoesn't do favored nations, I
can get better fees.
My agent has absolutelynegotiated better terms in
(16:44):
places where you can.
The problem is I live in NewYork City.
I would love to work in NewYork City more.
City, I would love to work inNew York City more.
I started to try and offer myjob to other people in the world
.
So, like I did this with Uberdrivers, where I basically you
know, I said okay, I'm a theaterdirector, do you have a sense
of what a theater director is?
And they're like, yeah, theylike make all the decisions you
(17:06):
know for a play.
And you know I was like do youhave a sense of how like
important a theater director isto a production?
They're like.
I was like do you have a senseof how important a theater
director is to a production?
They're like, yeah, reallyimportant.
I was like, yeah.
So I want you to imagine if youwere a theater director and
you're going to work for threemonths.
It might be on and off and thensix weeks, but it's three
months of work.
There's a lot of prestige,right, so people will look up to
(17:28):
you.
You get to be in a position ofpower.
There's like a lot of benefitsto it.
Would you take this job forseven grand?
And the Uber driver's like no,what?
And I was like okay, okay, 10grand.
He was like no, 13 grand, no,15 grand.
No, I said okay, what would youneed to do this job for three
months?
And they were like I don't know, 20, $25,000.
(17:50):
I was going and speaking at adonor event.
You know they bring us out togo talk to the donors to help,
like you know, develop moreincome through donation and be
like, ah, the director Applausearound the revered director,
right, and I go outside fromthat event.
My name's on the marquee and Idid the math and I was like
they're paying me like $45,000 ayear and I can go online and
(18:14):
see what the artistic directoris making.
It just seems out of balance.
It feels weird to be likerevered and also hiding how
poorly compensated you are.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
It would make me very angry.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
And there are a few examples in the theater industry
, where some of theseinstitutions have huge staffs
and the people at the top aremaking a lot of money.
It is public knowledge thatOscar Eustace is making between
a million and 1.2 milliondollars a year right.
(18:47):
Now he's the artistic directorof the public, I understand, and
so like should he make what Imake for a whole production?
Three months of work in twodays?
So he's getting paid in twodays, or three days or four days
, what you know, a directorwould be paid for an entire
production.
So I look at that that's oneexample and honestly, I don't
(19:09):
paint every theater under thesame like, with the same brush,
right?
But I look at it and I say like, just like, make it, make sense
to me.
How important is the director?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
So what keeps you going?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
I just need to keep doing this and I'm trying to do
meaningful work.
I'm trying to find, like youknow, unique stories.
I'm trying to bring like myspecial sauce to the thing and
either I keep doing that until Ihave like a Broadway musical
hit Do you want to do a musical?
Oh sure, yeah, I'm working on amusical with Craig Lucas right
now and Emily Hall about thewoman who gave LSD to JFK.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Oh, I want to see that.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Mary Pinchot Meyer.
Yeah, oh, wow.
She was way ahead of her time,spoiler.
She was probably murdered bythe CIA.
It's a very interesting storyabout an interesting time, about
conspiracies and the story wetell ourselves to survive.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
And where will you produce it?
What theater would that be in?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
No idea, no idea, we're still writing it, so
hopefully.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
It has a great potential, though the story yeah
.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Wow, what advice would you give somebody that has
a dream?
You know, when you love thetheater, you love the theater.
You can't help it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
What advice would you give?
I'm embarrassed that I feellike I have like old guy, like
dad, advice.
Now I think that and I'm nottalking about like your
development as an artist I think, I, truly I think everyone can
be an artist, is an artist ofsome kind.
I think.
Art, making art, making thingstogether, community creation, is
our like birthright.
However, for the life of adirector, you know, and
(20:43):
especially if you are notsomeone who comes from family
cash right, which is in everyindustry.
Right, it is easier if you gotloads of cash.
Everything is easier If youdon't come from lots of cash
right, which is in everyindustry right, it is easier.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
if you got loads of cash, everything is easier.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
If you don't come from lots of cash.
If you want to do this in anylong-term way, you have to find
a way to make the budget work.
I highly recommend havingsomething else that you can do
that creates a level ofstability for you so that you
can strategically do the work,because it will be a period of
time before you make anythingclose to a living wage over the
(21:19):
course of a year, or figure outearly how you're going to pivot
into other ways.
Some directors are directing TVand film.
You have to learn that that isa whole different industry.
Some of the personality maybehelps, some of the vision maybe
helps, but like that is atechnical thing to learn.
Pivot into that.
I've been working on writing.
(21:40):
I have a TV show that I'vedeveloped with playwright
Frankie Gonzalez that we're juststarting to pitch.
I've got other writing projectsthat I'm doing.
I wish I had started the moreinvested sort of writing
development years ago.
I mean I did, but I mean like20 years ago I should have been
like I need to have this otherthing.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Well, hindsight is 20 , 20 to everybody.
I wish I've done things too.
Yeah, you can go by that, yeahthat's right.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
And I so, and there are other jobs.
There are other jobs that youcan do that make money, that
create that stability.
But I think that is my biggestadvice it doesn't have to be a
fallback plan, like the thingthat you do when you decide
you're not good enough to hackit.
It needs to be some sort of athreaded existence where you can
(22:27):
create stability and financialstability and all of the other
stuff while you're continuing todevelop yourself as an artist,
like do it in concert andideally.
You know, I was a carpenter foryears.
I I was.
I was going and building roofdecks for the rich and famous
and then I was like showeringand changing in a in a bathroom
(22:49):
and putting on normal clothesand going to the theater to go
to rehearsal at night.
You know I was like that was howI did it.
I don't recommend it.
It's a tough.
That's a tough day-to-nightBarbie transition but if there
are other things that you candevelop, it will give you the
best chance of existing longenough until you can have that
Broadway musical that changesyour life.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
And can somebody start today?
Would you recommend the way youdid, doing it through a
university, first the dramadepartment.
Is that the best way to start,you think?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I mean, if you're already out of university, great
, do it right.
I think, if you want to start,get a group of people together,
convince them to come and, youknow, say the words you've
written or someone else haswritten.
Put it in a place, decide howyou want it to look like you're
directing and, oddly, I think,even though you won't feel good
at it, you will actuallyeverything about what you are
(23:44):
doing in the first time that youlike set out.
There will be versions of thatgenetic material in your work
for a lifetime.
It's all right there, right?
So I, you know, I ran my owntheater company, the Debate
Society, For years.
We produced all of the stuffourselves.
We had jobs, you know, I wascarpentry.
My partners were working at aMexican restaurant.
(24:06):
We like, you know.
You were three people in theDebate Society right, three
people in the Debate SocietyHannah Boss and Paul Thorine.
You were three people in thedebate society right?
Three people in the debatesociety Hannah Boss and Paul
Thorine who are now celebratedTV writers now and film writers.
And, I think, starting your owncompany, getting a group of
people together.
Don't wait for any organizationor any person to hand you a
career, because there is no HRof theater who's keeping track
(24:30):
of your good work and who'sgoing to give you a raise or a
job on any sort of likepredictable increment.
There are opportunities, youknow.
If that's what you want to doand develop yourself as an
artist, just do it.
Invite people to your apartment, do the reading there, get the
lighting just right.
Go find a space, make a budget,raise the money for it.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
You have to be the maker of it besides a drive that
you must have if you want tosucceed, what would you say?
Other skill is very importantfor a director blind confidence
is right.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I think I'm too hard on myself, like I struggle daily
with just like a level of I'mlike oriented towards like
self-criticism in ways that isnot even like conscious, like.
So, I think being really kindto yourself, celebrate the
little wins, I think trustingyour own creative evolution as a
(25:24):
person.
I did not feel as a youngartist that I had any idea what
I was fucking doing.
I had no idea what I was doing.
I had like instincts and vibes,but now, looking back, I'm like
those instincts and vibes wereconnected to something.
I just felt embarrassed tostand behind them.
So I think, yeah, a level oflike compassion for self and
(25:46):
then whatever the sort of blindconfidence, what I'm getting at
and we can see this in manyother parts of the world, our
political world and everythingthere are full blown idiots in
the world who get so many greatthings, sometimes because they
are unable to even conceive ofthemselves not being good enough
.
And so, you know, whateveractivates a little bit of just
(26:09):
like dumb confidence and vision.
However you get there, I thinkit's, I think it's just good to
practice, as long as it doesn't,you know, push anyone else down
.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Do you still love theater or you prefer to be in
TV now and film because of money?
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I don't know where I prefer to be.
I love theater and I amactively looking for a new path
to either create more stabilityin the theater for me for the
rest of my life, or another wayto use my skills in ensemble
playmaking, storymaking,coaching, to use those skills
(26:46):
and manifest my artist self insome other way.
So I love the theater and Ifeel heartbroken by the theater.
I love the people in thetheater.
There are no better people.
I love the theatrical identityand orientation across the world
Theater.
People across the world havevery similar senses of humor.
The world Theater people acrossthe world have very similar
(27:08):
senses of humor.
You can go anywhere and evenwithout language, you can
understand that we're like.
We get it in a way that otherpeople don't.
And I feel heartbroken becauseof the pay.
I guess I don't know.
This is also what I'membarrassed by.
Yeah, I want it to be easierand it's not.
I take responsibility for mypart in that and I also feel
like some structural problemsare preventing it.
(27:30):
Yeah, I'm trying to balance it.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
You mentioned before the winning and the losing, the
roller coasters of emotions.
What would you say is thebiggest challenge as a director?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Feeling invisible, you know, like you brought up
Constitution.
Feeling invisible, you know,like you brought up Constitution
.
Constitution was simultaneouslythe most amazing, edifying
experience of my life.
When I went to Broadway andalso on Broadway, I was like I
don't know that I'll everachieve this again.
This may be it.
This may be like as good as it,as good as it.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
I don't know.
I want to tell you that when Iwas sitting in the theater I was
thinking about the director,because this is not an easy play
to direct.
It's a one character withanother little child, you know,
a little bit coming in and out,and I think there was voiceover.
I saw it years ago.
So I mean it's not like amusical.
I believe musical is easy todirect.
You know, it's full of actionand dancing.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
And.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I thought I was sitting there and thinking about
the director, so I don't knowthat.
Actually, that was a goodexample for an invisible
director.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I fully hear you what I'm about to say.
You know there's like littlebits of shame and what I'm about
to say.
Right, but when I looked atconstitution and look, awards
don't matter, right, like, but Idon't think any of our
designers were nominated I, Iwasn't nominated for anything.
I can hear the voices of likeoh my God, the big secret is out
(28:52):
.
Oliver wants to win some awardsand I have.
I like.
Who am I complaining to?
Who doesn't?
So the challenge I have is thisfeeling of like, invisibleness
and this lack of feeling thatyou do anything and it leads to
some sort of verifiablestability.
Arts programs are gettinggutted.
A close friend of mine worksfor the food bank in DC and
(29:15):
after they laid off all thosefederal workers, they were out
there raising money for what isthe most immediate thing.
It's like people need to be fed.
I get it.
How do I raise the alarm?
Like I want an easier life andI want to make enough money to
survive.
And also, laid off workers needto eat.
Like, where's the priority?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I get it In the times that we're living now.
I think theater could be sopowerful in making a change.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I mean we've got to step up.
This is what we're made for.
I agree it can be a veryexciting time artistically.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I can't wait to see the one about the woman that
gave LSD to JFK.
Jfk, you said right.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Not RFK.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, JFK it would be good if it was RFK.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, I don't know what he's done.
I don't know if he's takenenough psychedelics.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
It's either too much or too little, all right, and on
that note, thank you so much,of course.
Thank you, murat, thanks amillion.
Okay, okay, bye-bye.
That's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
(30:27):
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
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