September 9, 2025 • 24 mins
Academic Career
Dive into the world of academia with valuable career insights and job tips from English Professor Tom Kitts. Tom has spent 45 years teaching English at St. John’s University - when he wasn’t in the classroom, he was busy with his cool side gig - writing books about Rock 'n Roll legends like Ray Davies, John Fogerty, and Richie Furay.
In our chat, we don’t just talk music - we dig into what an English degree can actually do for you in today’s job market. As Tom puts it, “it’s applicable to many different careers." FYI, many English grads thrive in jobs ranging from business to law and beyond.
Join us to uncover the potential of your passions and possibly discover a new career paths.
Follow us for essential advice on making money, navigating your career journey, and real stories from people in all kinds of jobs.
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Music credit: Kate Pierson & Monica Nation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
TOM (00:04):
The good thing about being an English major is it's very
applicable to many other, manyother industries.
People like English majorsbecause they could write, they
could think critically.
MIRAV (00:14):
Welcome back to how Much Can I Make the podcast about
jobs.
Be sure to follow us and, ifyou like what you hear, leave a
review to help others find ourcontent.
Today I'm joined by Dr ThomasKitts, professor of English at
St John's University in New York.
Tom is not only a dedicatedteacher, but also an author of
several acclaimed books on musiclegends like Richard Foray,
(00:37):
john Fogarty and Ray Davis.
He also wrote about theater andliterature, so let's jump right
in and hear it from Tom.
Tom, first of all, thank youvery much for agreeing to do
that.
It was a pleasure.
You've been a professor, aneditor, a writer, an author, I
should say.
When you go to a party andpeople ask you what do you do,
(00:59):
what do you answer?
TOM (01:00):
I usually say professor, and then I'll add author.
Author helps get a conversationgoing if I want to engage with
someone Right.
MIRAV (01:10):
What got you into English literature and how did you get
from English literature to writeabout rock and roll?
Oh, that's interesting.
TOM (01:17):
I guess when I was an undergraduate I got really
involved in literature.
I really liked especiallyAmerican literature.
And then I got my PhD at NYUand I worked with a professor,
kenneth Silverman, veryinfluential on me.
Silverman had won a PulitzerPrize for one of his books on an
old Puritan, cotton Mather, andhe worked very closely with me
(01:40):
on my dissertation and, while Ididn't know it at the time, I
was writing about popularculture.
I was writing about Americanplaywright in the 1800s and I
think from that things kind ofevolved.
My dissertation ended up beingmy first book on a guy named
George Henry Boca that nobody'sever heard of, but anyway.
And from that I was starting towrite a second book on American
(02:03):
theater in the 1800s and I sawan advertisement for Ray Davies
of the Kinks.
I was starting to write asecond book on American theater
in the 1800s and I saw anadvertisement for Ray Davies of
the Kinks who was performing asolo show, and I said to myself
that's who I should write a bookabout.
I've been talking about thisguy all my life.
What a great songwriter he is,what a great performer he is.
And that's when that started.
It was kind of, when I lookback, a sort of neat kind of
(02:23):
movement into popular culture,because I really had been
writing about popular culture bywriting about the theater, so I
started to write about RayDavies and everything just kind
of snowballed.
MIRAV (02:33):
So you wrote about John Fogarty and actually I found the
Richie Fouret reallyinteresting story.
TOM (02:40):
He's an interesting guy Very interesting guy.
MIRAV (02:43):
The twin from rock and roll to Christian.
But how do you choose yourartist?
TOM (02:48):
I have to like the music first.
Okay, if I like the music and Ifeel enough has not been
written about them, I do that.
With Ray Davies, I noticed thatnobody was really examining his
songwriting.
So my books tend to be a littlemore academic than a standard
biography on a performer.
You know I really go into someclose readings of the songs.
So I felt that way about RayJohn Fogarty.
(03:11):
The same way.
A guy who just has not been, Ithink, appreciated enough as a
songwriter and Richie gets verylittle appreciation.
He's one of the founders of thecountry rock scene and he's
just a fascinating guy and wegot to, I think, be friends
until the book came out and thenhe hated you.
That may be strong, maybe hedidn't like as an evangelical.
(03:35):
He became very supportive ofTrump, very supportive on
everything he said, and I kindof objected to the fact that he
never called Trump out on any ofhis lies, right.
And I put that in the bookbecause Richie has a very active
Facebook following in which hecan be very political and I sort
of went into that for onlythree pages.
And then I also told a fewstories that maybe he didn't
(03:58):
appreciate.
You know, a lot of these guyswant you to write about them as
if they're saints, right.
And when you tell stories thatmaybe don't contribute to their
sainthood, they don't like it.
MIRAV (04:08):
So do you interview the?
TOM (04:09):
musician.
I try to.
It's funny with all three ofthem.
It's very different.
Ray Davies you would think hewas my friend if he were to walk
in here now, and I tried to sitdown with a formal interview
for him, and he would never giveme one.
He kept saying next time I'm inNew York he has a place in New
York I will call you, we'llarrange an interview.
Next time you're in London,call me, I'll arrange an
(04:30):
interview.
Never happened.
We would talk backstagesometimes.
He'd give me some quotations,but I never had the formal
interview I want.
He's an unusual guy, though.
He also never signed off ongiving me the rights to publish
his lyrics.
John Fogarty would not meet withme.
He also stopped anybody aroundhim from talking to me.
What was he afraid of, do youknow?
(04:51):
I have no idea.
Some of these guys are justpeculiar, and I think they've
been burnt by the press over theyears.
With Fogarty, though, I gotreally a lot of help from his
former bandmates in CreedenceClearwater Revival.
They were great, they werereally good.
And then with Fiore, we talkeda lot.
Just the opposite.
Every month we talked for aboutan hour, an hour and a half.
We both enjoyed theconversations and, as I said, we
(05:13):
kind of became friends untilthe book came out and he didn't
like some of the things I said.
Interesting, yeah.
MIRAV (05:21):
Is Interesting.
Is there any moment or anyinterview that is stuck with you
more than others?
TOM (05:26):
Yeah, I'll give you two.
Okay, maybe because they're themost recent one With the Richie
Fure book.
One of the best interviews Iever did, or maybe one I enjoyed
the most, was with Timothy BSchmidt.
He was in Poco, a band thatRichie had started back in the
(05:46):
early 70s 69, I think and he wasa bass player in that band.
But he went on to form theEagles and he's been the bass
player in the Eagles forwhatever 40, 50 years now.
He was just such a friendly,warm person and he talked about
how Richie had influenced him,how he got him started.
If it wasn't for Richie hewould never ended up in the
Eagles.
Just a really wonderful guy.
(06:08):
Another one I did, a publishedinterview, not apart from the
books was with a punk rockernamed Justin Sane who's been in
a lot of trouble over the lastyear.
He's been kind of canceledsexual abuse and whatever but
this is before any of that.
Years ago I was interviewinghim on his tour bus.
He was in a band calledAnti-Flag that I really liked
(06:29):
and he said to me this is thefirst time I met him.
We sort of became friends afterthat.
We were careful of that right,but he said I only got a half
hour Talking.
A half hour.
His manager walks at Newark.
He says don't worry, this isgoing okay, we're fine.
Talked another 20 minutes, cameback on and told me we got that
plane.
No, it's okay, things are goingall right.
Came back 15 minutes later andwe're still talking.
(06:49):
We both have a really good time.
We became sort of fast friends.
And the guy came and he says no, stop, don't worry.
MIRAV (06:55):
And I said there's no plane in Newark is there, he
said no, so you're in academia.
TOM (07:07):
Yes, and that's what you said.
MIRAV (07:07):
You love being a professor more than anything
else.
So one of your students in thereview said oh no, great
professor, oh, that's good.
The class is reading heavy butvery manageable.
He sets high expectations earlyon, but if you put in real
effort he grades fairly.
All readings are provided asPDFs, so no textbook needed.
TOM (07:29):
It was a five-star review, that's pretty good and you know
when I wrote that, no, I didn'tsee that.
I'd always check the reviews,but that's really nice.
So I do make them work.
I really do, and you know Ireally dislike and I've been
hearing this, by the way, forlike 40 years.
Oh, students today don't wantto work.
(07:49):
It seems like they've alwayssaid that forever.
All you got to do is make them,make them read.
I give them a stupid quiz atthe beginning of class and
because I give them this dumbquiz, they read.
You teach English literature, I.
I teach a couple of things.
I teach English literature andI also teach popular culture
courses.
So that's what I've been reallyworking in the last 30 years.
I guess For 30 years you'vebeen teaching, I guess.
(08:11):
Actually, I got something in mymailbox at St John's this past
summer and there was acertificate in there
congratulating me on 45 years.
Oh, wow, I didn't know if Iliked that to be honest with you
.
I'm not hanging it up anywhere.
Where do you teach now.
What's it called St John'sUniversity in Queens?
We're large, we've got abeautiful campus and we have
(08:32):
approximately 15,000 students onour Queens campus.
Yeah, it's a big university.
MIRAV (08:37):
What kind of person goes to study English literature, I
mean, and what can they do withit?
TOM (08:43):
The good thing about English being an English major
is it's very applicable to manyother industries.
People like English majorsbecause they could write,
hopefully, they could thinkcritically, and one thing I like
to do that sometimes boresstudents is read passages very
closely Like what does that wordimply?
Why does he use that word?
What other word could he haveused?
(09:03):
So you get to analyze things.
I do a lot of critical thinkingin my classes so you can go
into a lot of different placeswith it.
My brother was a history majorand ended up being a senior VP
at the Bank of New York beforehe retired.
So you can move into differentareas if you have basic skills
like that and you cancommunicate.
You know, if you have thosecommunication skills and you can
think critically, you'll end upsomewhere besides teaching,
(09:26):
besides publishing, and you knowwhat.
Law schools like English majorsReally.
Yeah, they do Because of thosereasons, Because of the writing.
Those reasons, yeah.
MIRAV (09:33):
You also taught in India and in Germany.
Yes, what did you teach thereand what was?
TOM (09:39):
it like India.
I think I was there in 2017.
I was invited to teach thereand I thought I was going to
teach about popular culture andAmerican literature, and I
actually taught there twice.
The first time, they asked meto teach Shakespeare.
Oh, so why would you ask me toteach Shakespeare?
I mean, I love Shakespeare.
I have taught him before, so itwas a great opportunity for me,
(10:01):
but it was a little unusual forme to do that.
What was it like?
Students were very respectful.
Here's an interesting storyabout that.
First of all, you walk into aclassroom and they stand up, wow
, and they don't sit down untilyou tell them to, which I didn't
know.
So I said okay, I'm starting,I'm starting.
Okay, I'm waiting for him tosit.
And I think one of the studentssaid you got to tell us oh,
(10:22):
okay, sit down.
But the funny thing I got overthere a lot was other professors
kept asking me how do you findour students?
They're very nice, good, veryrespectful, aren't they?
Yeah, very respectful.
And finally, one day, one ofthe professors said to me
they're not like Americanstudents, are they?
I said what do you mean?
Well, they're very respectful.
I said so are my students?
They actually had the image ofAnimal House, the John Belushi
(10:46):
movie.
They thought that was like atypical college classroom.
I swear I couldn't believe it.
I said no.
I said my students come in, sayhello, they don't stand, I
don't need them to, they sitdown, they listen.
I said maybe every couple ofyears you got to tell two of
them to stop talking.
And cell phones now you know Itry to get them not to use those
.
But no, they're very respectful.
(11:06):
But they didn't realize thatthey thought it was like Animal
House.
MIRAV (11:09):
Interesting.
That's the big, the badmarketing of Hollywood.
There it is right.
TOM (11:14):
Unbelievable.
Wow, yeah, I was surprised.
And what was Germany?
Like Germany, very respectful,I liked them a lot.
I'm not sure they were graduatestudents.
What year did you teach there,graduate school?
MIRAV (11:26):
No, germany.
I was there last summer.
I taught there twice too.
TOM (11:30):
Okay, I forget the first time, maybe 2020.
I'm not even sure 2020.
And then last last summer, andthey were good students, very
good, very talkative,cooperative.
I talked about sound.
I talked about music in NewYork City.
I talked about hip-hopbeginning in the Bronx and how
that kind of now became a worldmusic.
But yeah, it was a lot of fun.
What they do at the end ofclass is they bang on the table
(11:52):
Like that's their way ofclapping Wow With something else
Again.
The first time it happened.
So what is that about?
That's what we do at the end ofclass.
It's like clapping.
MIRAV (12:01):
What is the one thing you wish you had known before you
started your travels in academia?
TOM (12:08):
Gee, I found them all pretty fast.
Can I tell you what I tellyoung professors?
Yeah, maybe that'll help.
First thing you have to do as acollege professor besides,
teach your classes, which is, tobe honest, probably for me at
least, the easiest part of thejob.
Okay, and I like thepreparations and all that.
You got to get publications.
The old saying used to bepublish or perish.
You got to get publications.
To get tenure.
You got to do three things toget tenure you got to teach.
(12:29):
That's relatively easy.
You got to do service to theuniversity relatively easy what
do you mean by service?
MIRAV (12:35):
you get on a committee.
TOM (12:37):
Young professors will get on committees like oh, I don't,
don't know, the library sciencecommittee, in which you interact
with the library on differentthings.
You meet maybe once or twice ayear, not very difficult.
Or you get a committee that youknow, you overlook the budget
for your college and you don'thave much to say, really Just
yes, okay, maybe try this, arecommendation.
(12:58):
And and you don't have much tosay, really Just yes, okay,
maybe try this a recommendation.
And there are tons of standingcommittees like that.
That's easy for a youngprofessor.
The hard thing is gettingpublished.
How do you do it?
You take from your dissertationand you got to try to get some
chapters published, maybepublish this book.
But you have to go toconferences, you have to network
.
I always tell them network.
What kind of conferences?
Well, what kind of conferences?
Well, right now I go regularlyto the Popular Culture
(13:19):
Association's conference.
It's international, it's heldin April, and there you present
the paper and then I tell themyou've got to stick around and
you've got to meet people, talkto them, find future
collaborators, go to see peoplewho are editors of journals, see
if they'll be interested.
You really have to network.
And I always tell them the samething.
You have to go to the bar inthe hotel at night and just sit
(13:42):
there and look for people yousaw and if they did a good paper
, go up and introduce yourselfand even just say I loved your
paper or whatever, and juststart talking.
MIRAV (13:50):
But if somebody gets into academia and doesn't publish
and unable to get a deal, sothey're not going to last too
long, right?
TOM (13:56):
They unable to get a deal, so they're not going to last too
long, right, they're not goingto get tenure Typical of most
universities you have about six,seven years before you're
awarded tenure.
I happen to be on the committeethat awards tenure to
professors.
There's like 19 of us and everyspring semester we meet and
review the applications andwe'll often, after two, three
years, if someone hasn'tpublished, we'll give them a bit
(14:17):
of a warning and then afterfour years, maybe it'll be
dismissed.
MIRAV (14:21):
So they have to publish in academia papers.
TOM (14:24):
Oh yes, it has to be in what's called a refereed journal
, primarily, okay, peer-reviewedrefereed journal.
That's the hard part.
MIRAV (14:34):
And to be a professor you have to have a.
TOM (14:35):
PhD In most disciplines?
Yes, Not necessarily, but Ithink we have like 89% of our
faculty have PhDs.
MIRAV (14:43):
And what's the biggest challenge of teaching?
TOM (14:45):
I think it's always about getting to know the students.
I always say this I hate thebeginning of the semester.
Why?
Because, I don't know them, theydon't know me, and it's like
the first round of the boxingmatch almost.
You're trying to figure outwhat everyone has and what
they're doing and I like, whenwe get to after about three or
four weeks, I know them, I knowall their names.
(15:05):
I always call them by firstname by then.
I've struck up severalper-private conversations with
them.
I'll sometimes see a kid'sbaseball hat and say so, you're
a Yankee fan and I'm a Mets fan,so we'll start a conversation
by that.
But once you get to know them,all of a sudden in class they
start listening to you.
Oh, it really is something.
If you don't make an effort toreach them, you're just some guy
(15:27):
up there talking, talking, blah, blah, blah.
You know.
But when you get to know them,it's amazing how they'll listen.
They'll feel more at ease andyou can even fool around a
little in class.
MIRAV (15:36):
How many?
TOM (15:37):
students usually in the class.
We are very good with our classsize.
In the humanities we don't have, generally not more than 35,
and usually 20 to 25.
MIRAV (15:47):
That's good, and how many times a week do you see them?
TOM (15:50):
Well, in the fall I'm always doing my classes on
Wednesday.
They're three-hour classes,which is tough for them more
than me.
I always say is there anybodyreally want to listen to for
three hours?
So I do a lot of different kindof works.
I'll mix films in there and allthat.
But we generally each classthree credit class meets three
hours a week do you find yourstudents uh using ai a lot
(16:10):
that's a problem.
It has become a problem tell meabout it ah, we're trying to
find a solution to it.
Because you give an essay andall of a sudden you know these
students are slick.
They'll put in like AI and saygive me a paper for a B student.
So you know it's not perfectand so it's really hard to
detect.
We're getting better at it, butit's hard to detect that they
(16:31):
use AI.
I'm telling you, even with thejournal I edit, we're getting
submissions that have used AI,which is horrible, and we just
reject them.
If you use AI, use it forresearch.
You've got to tell how you useit.
But with students when ahand-in-papers written by AI,
it's hard to detect.
And I think a lot of us arethinking about doing more
writing in class, which thatdetracts from all the stuff
(16:53):
you've got to cover and you wantto cover.
I know one professor told methat's all I'm doing, just
in-class writing, but it takesso much time.
So it's a problem.
It's a problem that we'retrying to figure out a solution.
I find it very disturbing andit's only going to get bigger.
It's only going to get bigger.
It really is.
MIRAV (17:08):
Wow, writing books doesn't really pay the rent.
TOM (17:11):
No, no, that's not why I teach, but it helps to be a
professor when you get a verynice salary and you can do
things you want to do With amerit increase that stick to
your salary year after year.
But you're right, books do notpay the rent, the kind of books
I write.
You're not going to make morethan a low few thousands, you're
just not.
(17:31):
And it's going to take timeBecause it's an academia.
Academic book.
It doesn't tell, while thereare stories in there and it's
about their lives.
I focus on their music and ifpeople see things like published
by Penn State University Press,uh-oh, stay away from that one,
why they think it's tooacademic, uh-huh, and it's going
to be dry, you know.
MIRAV (17:59):
So you can make in the low thousands.
TOM (18:00):
I would say so, which project made you the most money?
I think uh ray davis king'sbook more than john fogarty.
Yes, yeah, honestly, I wassurprised I'd never do it for
the money never, because it'snot.
it's not gonna be substantial,it's not gonna change my life
for anybody, but I think the raydavis, yeah, I think it did.
I was surprised becausesomebody I know who had written
a book on Creedence ClearwaterRevival told me that book made
him the most money and I said,well, geez, maybe I'll get lucky
(18:22):
here, but it hasn't really, whoknows.
MIRAV (18:25):
But in teaching you have tenure.
TOM (18:28):
Yes, I have tenure Full professor salary's very good,
very happy with it.
So it allows me to do more orless what I want.
I guess the average professorspends about 12 hours a week on
campus and that's where youdisseminate knowledge, where you
teach.
I always say every professormust have a project and they've
got to be working on somethingbecause you're only there 12
hours a week.
(18:48):
And so I started doing thesebooks and things and it's really
been good for me, hopefully formy university, hopefully people
will read them.
So you get royalties.
Yes, you get royalties.
The percentage is generally atseven percent.
I'm a terrible negotiator ineverything I do.
Michael Lyon he's on my mindbecause he just passed away the
last couple of weeks and greatobituaries in the Times and
(19:09):
Rolling Stone on him.
But he told me how to negotiate.
MIRAV (19:12):
What did he say?
TOM (19:13):
He says, first of all, never accept the first offer.
Right, Of course.
Right.
He says then, work with themand get the advance as high as
possible and take it.
I was no good at either one ofthose things, but Michael made
his living as a writer, you know, so it was a little different.
MIRAV (19:27):
What is the going salary for a PhD professor?
TOM (19:31):
It depends.
It depends on your discipline.
I'm going to guess, because Idon't really know.
If you get a PhD in, let's say,economics, you're going to be
paid more than a PhD in English.
I would say if we were hiring anew PhD in English, no
experience just got out of theprogram.
My guess is that personprobably started about $90,000.
(19:52):
In economics, my guess againabout $120,000.
It's a great disparity.
And in computers, do you haveany idea?
You know, I don't know,computers are doing so well, no,
I don't know.
But uh, you know, with all aiand the job market wasn't good
for new college graduates incomputers, probably about 110,
120, maybe about the same.
(20:12):
Humanities is always low, evenin publishing.
You don't start very wellbecause we don't bring in grants
, grant money.
We bring in, we apply for agrant, we can jump through hoops
and we'll get a $3,000 grant or5,000 grant.
Scientists come in with amillion dollar grant over three
years education doing research,get grants for $750,000 to study
(20:32):
things.
And then comes a guy in EnglishI got a $3,000 grant things.
And then comes a guy in EnglishWell, I got a $3,000.
Financial stability definitelyis what the professorship gives
me and what I really enjoy.
You know, I can tell you Ienjoy my colleagues, I enjoy
going to work.
I'm very lucky, especially Ionly have to go in a couple of
days a week, so that's reallykind of nice.
What is the biggest reward inteaching, you know, I'll tell
(20:52):
you.
It's.
Look at my cell phone over there, because I just got an email
from a student of mine that Iprobably had five, six years ago
now.
This is a guy who came herefrom his family, came, I believe
, from Ecuador, Okay, Okay, andhis parents do not speak English
they might by now but and hecame to St John's and I had him
in a class I teach calledwriting about music, and he
(21:13):
wasn't interested in music, butsomeone had told him take my
class so he could know how towrite.
He was a really good studentand his writing really improved.
He goes to law school and wemeet for lunch one day and he's
telling me you know, myprofessor made me the guy to
tutor other students in thefirst year writing class in law
school.
Wow, this is really.
And he said he actually saidthat's because of you.
He said you made me write, youmade me do things.
(21:35):
He's now a successful lawyerand he texted me over the summer
and says we've got to gettogether for lunch.
So I mean, you get things likethat all the time.
It's just great to hear.
MIRAV (21:43):
Okay.
So before we go, I want to knowwhat's next for you.
What are you working on now?
TOM (21:48):
I'm working on two essays now About what on Soundscapes.
It's for a book calledSoundscapes and it's going to be
on New York City and the soundsof New York City, which does
include music, and I get into alittle bit about the music on
the subway platforms, which isreally good.
It is very good, I know.
MIRAV (22:05):
Right, some great musicians.
Oh my God.
You know Joshua Bell onceplayed in the subway and made
like three dollars.
People didn't know it was him,the best I know.
Yeah, is that amazing?
TOM (22:17):
they're so good.
And now the city.
I guess now last 10 years Iguess, they've had an
organization where these guysactually audition, oh, and then
they give them certain spots onthe subway to perform wow music
underground, something like thatit's called.
So the quality is better thanever wow, it's a great place for
them to hone their skills andeverything else.
MIRAV (22:37):
A place to rehearse.
A place to rehearse work outdifferent things.
TOM (22:41):
Yeah, it's been great, and some of them can make a living
doing it a modest living to beclear.
Maybe pay their rent in ashared apartment, that kind of
thing.
And the other thing I'm writingabout is Bob Dylan.
I just did a presentation at theInstitute for Bob Dylan Studies
in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I thinkit went pretty well, so I'm
going to turn it into an articlethat hopefully will be out with
next year or so.
Writing is just flat-out hardwork.
(23:02):
I often would say and I'mquoting somebody, many people
have said this I don't enjoywriting, but I enjoy having
written.
Yes, you know yes.
Relate to that Right.
You know what I mean,absolutely.
So, that's the thing, and it's agreat feeling when you see an
article or a book published.
It still is.
Yeah, that's a big reward ofwriting.
(23:23):
Exactly, but the writing partof it.
It'd be nice to just go rightto the end, you know.
MIRAV (23:29):
All right, well, thank you so much for sharing your
time and your expertise.
TOM (23:36):
Thank you, I enjoyed it Excellent.
MIRAV (23:41):
Okay, that's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
The good thing about being an English major is it's very
applicable to many other, manyother industries.
People like English majorsbecause they could write, they
could think critically.
MIRAV (00:14):
Welcome back to how Much Can I Make the podcast about
jobs.
Be sure to follow us and, ifyou like what you hear, leave a
review to help others find ourcontent.
Today I'm joined by Dr ThomasKitts, professor of English at
St John's University in New York.
Tom is not only a dedicatedteacher, but also an author of
several acclaimed books on musiclegends like Richard Foray,
(00:37):
john Fogarty and Ray Davis.
He also wrote about theater andliterature, so let's jump right
in and hear it from Tom.
Tom, first of all, thank youvery much for agreeing to do
that.
It was a pleasure.
You've been a professor, aneditor, a writer, an author, I
should say.
When you go to a party andpeople ask you what do you do,
(00:59):
what do you answer?
TOM (01:00):
I usually say professor, and then I'll add author.
Author helps get a conversationgoing if I want to engage with
someone Right.
MIRAV (01:10):
What got you into English literature and how did you get
from English literature to writeabout rock and roll?
Oh, that's interesting.
TOM (01:17):
I guess when I was an undergraduate I got really
involved in literature.
I really liked especiallyAmerican literature.
And then I got my PhD at NYUand I worked with a professor,
kenneth Silverman, veryinfluential on me.
Silverman had won a PulitzerPrize for one of his books on an
old Puritan, cotton Mather, andhe worked very closely with me
(01:40):
on my dissertation and, while Ididn't know it at the time, I
was writing about popularculture.
I was writing about Americanplaywright in the 1800s and I
think from that things kind ofevolved.
My dissertation ended up beingmy first book on a guy named
George Henry Boca that nobody'sever heard of, but anyway.
And from that I was starting towrite a second book on American
(02:03):
theater in the 1800s and I sawan advertisement for Ray Davies
of the Kinks.
I was starting to write asecond book on American theater
in the 1800s and I saw anadvertisement for Ray Davies of
the Kinks who was performing asolo show, and I said to myself
that's who I should write a bookabout.
I've been talking about thisguy all my life.
What a great songwriter he is,what a great performer he is.
And that's when that started.
It was kind of, when I lookback, a sort of neat kind of
(02:23):
movement into popular culture,because I really had been
writing about popular culture bywriting about the theater, so I
started to write about RayDavies and everything just kind
of snowballed.
MIRAV (02:33):
So you wrote about John Fogarty and actually I found the
Richie Fouret reallyinteresting story.
TOM (02:40):
He's an interesting guy Very interesting guy.
MIRAV (02:43):
The twin from rock and roll to Christian.
But how do you choose yourartist?
TOM (02:48):
I have to like the music first.
Okay, if I like the music and Ifeel enough has not been
written about them, I do that.
With Ray Davies, I noticed thatnobody was really examining his
songwriting.
So my books tend to be a littlemore academic than a standard
biography on a performer.
You know I really go into someclose readings of the songs.
So I felt that way about RayJohn Fogarty.
(03:11):
The same way.
A guy who just has not been, Ithink, appreciated enough as a
songwriter and Richie gets verylittle appreciation.
He's one of the founders of thecountry rock scene and he's
just a fascinating guy and wegot to, I think, be friends
until the book came out and thenhe hated you.
That may be strong, maybe hedidn't like as an evangelical.
(03:35):
He became very supportive ofTrump, very supportive on
everything he said, and I kindof objected to the fact that he
never called Trump out on any ofhis lies, right.
And I put that in the bookbecause Richie has a very active
Facebook following in which hecan be very political and I sort
of went into that for onlythree pages.
And then I also told a fewstories that maybe he didn't
(03:58):
appreciate.
You know, a lot of these guyswant you to write about them as
if they're saints, right.
And when you tell stories thatmaybe don't contribute to their
sainthood, they don't like it.
MIRAV (04:08):
So do you interview the?
TOM (04:09):
musician.
I try to.
It's funny with all three ofthem.
It's very different.
Ray Davies you would think hewas my friend if he were to walk
in here now, and I tried to sitdown with a formal interview
for him, and he would never giveme one.
He kept saying next time I'm inNew York he has a place in New
York I will call you, we'llarrange an interview.
Next time you're in London,call me, I'll arrange an
(04:30):
interview.
Never happened.
We would talk backstagesometimes.
He'd give me some quotations,but I never had the formal
interview I want.
He's an unusual guy, though.
He also never signed off ongiving me the rights to publish
his lyrics.
John Fogarty would not meet withme.
He also stopped anybody aroundhim from talking to me.
What was he afraid of, do youknow?
(04:51):
I have no idea.
Some of these guys are justpeculiar, and I think they've
been burnt by the press over theyears.
With Fogarty, though, I gotreally a lot of help from his
former bandmates in CreedenceClearwater Revival.
They were great, they werereally good.
And then with Fiore, we talkeda lot.
Just the opposite.
Every month we talked for aboutan hour, an hour and a half.
We both enjoyed theconversations and, as I said, we
(05:13):
kind of became friends untilthe book came out and he didn't
like some of the things I said.
Interesting, yeah.
MIRAV (05:21):
Is Interesting.
Is there any moment or anyinterview that is stuck with you
more than others?
TOM (05:26):
Yeah, I'll give you two.
Okay, maybe because they're themost recent one With the Richie
Fure book.
One of the best interviews Iever did, or maybe one I enjoyed
the most, was with Timothy BSchmidt.
He was in Poco, a band thatRichie had started back in the
(05:46):
early 70s 69, I think and he wasa bass player in that band.
But he went on to form theEagles and he's been the bass
player in the Eagles forwhatever 40, 50 years now.
He was just such a friendly,warm person and he talked about
how Richie had influenced him,how he got him started.
If it wasn't for Richie hewould never ended up in the
Eagles.
Just a really wonderful guy.
(06:08):
Another one I did, a publishedinterview, not apart from the
books was with a punk rockernamed Justin Sane who's been in
a lot of trouble over the lastyear.
He's been kind of canceledsexual abuse and whatever but
this is before any of that.
Years ago I was interviewinghim on his tour bus.
He was in a band calledAnti-Flag that I really liked
(06:29):
and he said to me this is thefirst time I met him.
We sort of became friends afterthat.
We were careful of that right,but he said I only got a half
hour Talking.
A half hour.
His manager walks at Newark.
He says don't worry, this isgoing okay, we're fine.
Talked another 20 minutes, cameback on and told me we got that
plane.
No, it's okay, things are goingall right.
Came back 15 minutes later andwe're still talking.
(06:49):
We both have a really good time.
We became sort of fast friends.
And the guy came and he says no, stop, don't worry.
MIRAV (06:55):
And I said there's no plane in Newark is there, he
said no, so you're in academia.
TOM (07:07):
Yes, and that's what you said.
MIRAV (07:07):
You love being a professor more than anything
else.
So one of your students in thereview said oh no, great
professor, oh, that's good.
The class is reading heavy butvery manageable.
He sets high expectations earlyon, but if you put in real
effort he grades fairly.
All readings are provided asPDFs, so no textbook needed.
TOM (07:29):
It was a five-star review, that's pretty good and you know
when I wrote that, no, I didn'tsee that.
I'd always check the reviews,but that's really nice.
So I do make them work.
I really do, and you know Ireally dislike and I've been
hearing this, by the way, forlike 40 years.
Oh, students today don't wantto work.
(07:49):
It seems like they've alwayssaid that forever.
All you got to do is make them,make them read.
I give them a stupid quiz atthe beginning of class and
because I give them this dumbquiz, they read.
You teach English literature, I.
I teach a couple of things.
I teach English literature andI also teach popular culture
courses.
So that's what I've been reallyworking in the last 30 years.
I guess For 30 years you'vebeen teaching, I guess.
(08:11):
Actually, I got something in mymailbox at St John's this past
summer and there was acertificate in there
congratulating me on 45 years.
Oh, wow, I didn't know if Iliked that to be honest with you
.
I'm not hanging it up anywhere.
Where do you teach now.
What's it called St John'sUniversity in Queens?
We're large, we've got abeautiful campus and we have
(08:32):
approximately 15,000 students onour Queens campus.
Yeah, it's a big university.
MIRAV (08:37):
What kind of person goes to study English literature, I
mean, and what can they do withit?
TOM (08:43):
The good thing about English being an English major
is it's very applicable to manyother industries.
People like English majorsbecause they could write,
hopefully, they could thinkcritically, and one thing I like
to do that sometimes boresstudents is read passages very
closely Like what does that wordimply?
Why does he use that word?
What other word could he haveused?
(09:03):
So you get to analyze things.
I do a lot of critical thinkingin my classes so you can go
into a lot of different placeswith it.
My brother was a history majorand ended up being a senior VP
at the Bank of New York beforehe retired.
So you can move into differentareas if you have basic skills
like that and you cancommunicate.
You know, if you have thosecommunication skills and you can
think critically, you'll end upsomewhere besides teaching,
(09:26):
besides publishing, and you knowwhat.
Law schools like English majorsReally.
Yeah, they do Because of thosereasons, Because of the writing.
Those reasons, yeah.
MIRAV (09:33):
You also taught in India and in Germany.
Yes, what did you teach thereand what was?
TOM (09:39):
it like India.
I think I was there in 2017.
I was invited to teach thereand I thought I was going to
teach about popular culture andAmerican literature, and I
actually taught there twice.
The first time, they asked meto teach Shakespeare.
Oh, so why would you ask me toteach Shakespeare?
I mean, I love Shakespeare.
I have taught him before, so itwas a great opportunity for me,
(10:01):
but it was a little unusual forme to do that.
What was it like?
Students were very respectful.
Here's an interesting storyabout that.
First of all, you walk into aclassroom and they stand up, wow
, and they don't sit down untilyou tell them to, which I didn't
know.
So I said okay, I'm starting,I'm starting.
Okay, I'm waiting for him tosit.
And I think one of the studentssaid you got to tell us oh,
(10:22):
okay, sit down.
But the funny thing I got overthere a lot was other professors
kept asking me how do you findour students?
They're very nice, good, veryrespectful, aren't they?
Yeah, very respectful.
And finally, one day, one ofthe professors said to me
they're not like Americanstudents, are they?
I said what do you mean?
Well, they're very respectful.
I said so are my students?
They actually had the image ofAnimal House, the John Belushi
(10:46):
movie.
They thought that was like atypical college classroom.
I swear I couldn't believe it.
I said no.
I said my students come in, sayhello, they don't stand, I
don't need them to, they sitdown, they listen.
I said maybe every couple ofyears you got to tell two of
them to stop talking.
And cell phones now you know Itry to get them not to use those
.
But no, they're very respectful.
(11:06):
But they didn't realize thatthey thought it was like Animal
House.
MIRAV (11:09):
Interesting.
That's the big, the badmarketing of Hollywood.
There it is right.
TOM (11:14):
Unbelievable.
Wow, yeah, I was surprised.
And what was Germany?
Like Germany, very respectful,I liked them a lot.
I'm not sure they were graduatestudents.
What year did you teach there,graduate school?
MIRAV (11:26):
No, germany.
I was there last summer.
I taught there twice too.
TOM (11:30):
Okay, I forget the first time, maybe 2020.
I'm not even sure 2020.
And then last last summer, andthey were good students, very
good, very talkative,cooperative.
I talked about sound.
I talked about music in NewYork City.
I talked about hip-hopbeginning in the Bronx and how
that kind of now became a worldmusic.
But yeah, it was a lot of fun.
What they do at the end ofclass is they bang on the table
(11:52):
Like that's their way ofclapping Wow With something else
Again.
The first time it happened.
So what is that about?
That's what we do at the end ofclass.
It's like clapping.
MIRAV (12:01):
What is the one thing you wish you had known before you
started your travels in academia?
TOM (12:08):
Gee, I found them all pretty fast.
Can I tell you what I tellyoung professors?
Yeah, maybe that'll help.
First thing you have to do as acollege professor besides,
teach your classes, which is, tobe honest, probably for me at
least, the easiest part of thejob.
Okay, and I like thepreparations and all that.
You got to get publications.
The old saying used to bepublish or perish.
You got to get publications.
To get tenure.
You got to do three things toget tenure you got to teach.
(12:29):
That's relatively easy.
You got to do service to theuniversity relatively easy what
do you mean by service?
MIRAV (12:35):
you get on a committee.
TOM (12:37):
Young professors will get on committees like oh, I don't,
don't know, the library sciencecommittee, in which you interact
with the library on differentthings.
You meet maybe once or twice ayear, not very difficult.
Or you get a committee that youknow, you overlook the budget
for your college and you don'thave much to say, really Just
yes, okay, maybe try this, arecommendation.
(12:58):
And and you don't have much tosay, really Just yes, okay,
maybe try this a recommendation.
And there are tons of standingcommittees like that.
That's easy for a youngprofessor.
The hard thing is gettingpublished.
How do you do it?
You take from your dissertationand you got to try to get some
chapters published, maybepublish this book.
But you have to go toconferences, you have to network
.
I always tell them network.
What kind of conferences?
Well, what kind of conferences?
Well, right now I go regularlyto the Popular Culture
(13:19):
Association's conference.
It's international, it's heldin April, and there you present
the paper and then I tell themyou've got to stick around and
you've got to meet people, talkto them, find future
collaborators, go to see peoplewho are editors of journals, see
if they'll be interested.
You really have to network.
And I always tell them the samething.
You have to go to the bar inthe hotel at night and just sit
(13:42):
there and look for people yousaw and if they did a good paper
, go up and introduce yourselfand even just say I loved your
paper or whatever, and juststart talking.
MIRAV (13:50):
But if somebody gets into academia and doesn't publish
and unable to get a deal, sothey're not going to last too
long, right?
TOM (13:56):
They unable to get a deal, so they're not going to last too
long, right, they're not goingto get tenure Typical of most
universities you have about six,seven years before you're
awarded tenure.
I happen to be on the committeethat awards tenure to
professors.
There's like 19 of us and everyspring semester we meet and
review the applications andwe'll often, after two, three
years, if someone hasn'tpublished, we'll give them a bit
(14:17):
of a warning and then afterfour years, maybe it'll be
dismissed.
MIRAV (14:21):
So they have to publish in academia papers.
TOM (14:24):
Oh yes, it has to be in what's called a refereed journal
, primarily, okay, peer-reviewedrefereed journal.
That's the hard part.
MIRAV (14:34):
And to be a professor you have to have a.
TOM (14:35):
PhD In most disciplines?
Yes, Not necessarily, but Ithink we have like 89% of our
faculty have PhDs.
MIRAV (14:43):
And what's the biggest challenge of teaching?
TOM (14:45):
I think it's always about getting to know the students.
I always say this I hate thebeginning of the semester.
Why?
Because, I don't know them, theydon't know me, and it's like
the first round of the boxingmatch almost.
You're trying to figure outwhat everyone has and what
they're doing and I like, whenwe get to after about three or
four weeks, I know them, I knowall their names.
(15:05):
I always call them by firstname by then.
I've struck up severalper-private conversations with
them.
I'll sometimes see a kid'sbaseball hat and say so, you're
a Yankee fan and I'm a Mets fan,so we'll start a conversation
by that.
But once you get to know them,all of a sudden in class they
start listening to you.
Oh, it really is something.
If you don't make an effort toreach them, you're just some guy
(15:27):
up there talking, talking, blah, blah, blah.
You know.
But when you get to know them,it's amazing how they'll listen.
They'll feel more at ease andyou can even fool around a
little in class.
MIRAV (15:36):
How many?
TOM (15:37):
students usually in the class.
We are very good with our classsize.
In the humanities we don't have, generally not more than 35,
and usually 20 to 25.
MIRAV (15:47):
That's good, and how many times a week do you see them?
TOM (15:50):
Well, in the fall I'm always doing my classes on
Wednesday.
They're three-hour classes,which is tough for them more
than me.
I always say is there anybodyreally want to listen to for
three hours?
So I do a lot of different kindof works.
I'll mix films in there and allthat.
But we generally each classthree credit class meets three
hours a week do you find yourstudents uh using ai a lot
(16:10):
that's a problem.
It has become a problem tell meabout it ah, we're trying to
find a solution to it.
Because you give an essay andall of a sudden you know these
students are slick.
They'll put in like AI and saygive me a paper for a B student.
So you know it's not perfectand so it's really hard to
detect.
We're getting better at it, butit's hard to detect that they
(16:31):
use AI.
I'm telling you, even with thejournal I edit, we're getting
submissions that have used AI,which is horrible, and we just
reject them.
If you use AI, use it forresearch.
You've got to tell how you useit.
But with students when ahand-in-papers written by AI,
it's hard to detect.
And I think a lot of us arethinking about doing more
writing in class, which thatdetracts from all the stuff
(16:53):
you've got to cover and you wantto cover.
I know one professor told methat's all I'm doing, just
in-class writing, but it takesso much time.
So it's a problem.
It's a problem that we'retrying to figure out a solution.
I find it very disturbing andit's only going to get bigger.
It's only going to get bigger.
It really is.
MIRAV (17:08):
Wow, writing books doesn't really pay the rent.
TOM (17:11):
No, no, that's not why I teach, but it helps to be a
professor when you get a verynice salary and you can do
things you want to do With amerit increase that stick to
your salary year after year.
But you're right, books do notpay the rent, the kind of books
I write.
You're not going to make morethan a low few thousands, you're
just not.
(17:31):
And it's going to take timeBecause it's an academia.
Academic book.
It doesn't tell, while thereare stories in there and it's
about their lives.
I focus on their music and ifpeople see things like published
by Penn State University Press,uh-oh, stay away from that one,
why they think it's tooacademic, uh-huh, and it's going
to be dry, you know.
MIRAV (17:59):
So you can make in the low thousands.
TOM (18:00):
I would say so, which project made you the most money?
I think uh ray davis king'sbook more than john fogarty.
Yes, yeah, honestly, I wassurprised I'd never do it for
the money never, because it'snot.
it's not gonna be substantial,it's not gonna change my life
for anybody, but I think the raydavis, yeah, I think it did.
I was surprised becausesomebody I know who had written
a book on Creedence ClearwaterRevival told me that book made
him the most money and I said,well, geez, maybe I'll get lucky
(18:22):
here, but it hasn't really, whoknows.
MIRAV (18:25):
But in teaching you have tenure.
TOM (18:28):
Yes, I have tenure Full professor salary's very good,
very happy with it.
So it allows me to do more orless what I want.
I guess the average professorspends about 12 hours a week on
campus and that's where youdisseminate knowledge, where you
teach.
I always say every professormust have a project and they've
got to be working on somethingbecause you're only there 12
hours a week.
(18:48):
And so I started doing thesebooks and things and it's really
been good for me, hopefully formy university, hopefully people
will read them.
So you get royalties.
Yes, you get royalties.
The percentage is generally atseven percent.
I'm a terrible negotiator ineverything I do.
Michael Lyon he's on my mindbecause he just passed away the
last couple of weeks and greatobituaries in the Times and
(19:09):
Rolling Stone on him.
But he told me how to negotiate.
MIRAV (19:12):
What did he say?
TOM (19:13):
He says, first of all, never accept the first offer.
Right, Of course.
Right.
He says then, work with themand get the advance as high as
possible and take it.
I was no good at either one ofthose things, but Michael made
his living as a writer, you know, so it was a little different.
MIRAV (19:27):
What is the going salary for a PhD professor?
TOM (19:31):
It depends.
It depends on your discipline.
I'm going to guess, because Idon't really know.
If you get a PhD in, let's say,economics, you're going to be
paid more than a PhD in English.
I would say if we were hiring anew PhD in English, no
experience just got out of theprogram.
My guess is that personprobably started about $90,000.
(19:52):
In economics, my guess againabout $120,000.
It's a great disparity.
And in computers, do you haveany idea?
You know, I don't know,computers are doing so well, no,
I don't know.
But uh, you know, with all aiand the job market wasn't good
for new college graduates incomputers, probably about 110,
120, maybe about the same.
(20:12):
Humanities is always low, evenin publishing.
You don't start very wellbecause we don't bring in grants
, grant money.
We bring in, we apply for agrant, we can jump through hoops
and we'll get a $3,000 grant or5,000 grant.
Scientists come in with amillion dollar grant over three
years education doing research,get grants for $750,000 to study
(20:32):
things.
And then comes a guy in EnglishI got a $3,000 grant things.
And then comes a guy in EnglishWell, I got a $3,000.
Financial stability definitelyis what the professorship gives
me and what I really enjoy.
You know, I can tell you Ienjoy my colleagues, I enjoy
going to work.
I'm very lucky, especially Ionly have to go in a couple of
days a week, so that's reallykind of nice.
What is the biggest reward inteaching, you know, I'll tell
(20:52):
you.
It's.
Look at my cell phone over there, because I just got an email
from a student of mine that Iprobably had five, six years ago
now.
This is a guy who came herefrom his family, came, I believe
, from Ecuador, Okay, Okay, andhis parents do not speak English
they might by now but and hecame to St John's and I had him
in a class I teach calledwriting about music, and he
(21:13):
wasn't interested in music, butsomeone had told him take my
class so he could know how towrite.
He was a really good studentand his writing really improved.
He goes to law school and wemeet for lunch one day and he's
telling me you know, myprofessor made me the guy to
tutor other students in thefirst year writing class in law
school.
Wow, this is really.
And he said he actually saidthat's because of you.
He said you made me write, youmade me do things.
(21:35):
He's now a successful lawyerand he texted me over the summer
and says we've got to gettogether for lunch.
So I mean, you get things likethat all the time.
It's just great to hear.
MIRAV (21:43):
Okay.
So before we go, I want to knowwhat's next for you.
What are you working on now?
TOM (21:48):
I'm working on two essays now About what on Soundscapes.
It's for a book calledSoundscapes and it's going to be
on New York City and the soundsof New York City, which does
include music, and I get into alittle bit about the music on
the subway platforms, which isreally good.
It is very good, I know.
MIRAV (22:05):
Right, some great musicians.
Oh my God.
You know Joshua Bell onceplayed in the subway and made
like three dollars.
People didn't know it was him,the best I know.
Yeah, is that amazing?
TOM (22:17):
they're so good.
And now the city.
I guess now last 10 years Iguess, they've had an
organization where these guysactually audition, oh, and then
they give them certain spots onthe subway to perform wow music
underground, something like thatit's called.
So the quality is better thanever wow, it's a great place for
them to hone their skills andeverything else.
MIRAV (22:37):
A place to rehearse.
A place to rehearse work outdifferent things.
TOM (22:41):
Yeah, it's been great, and some of them can make a living
doing it a modest living to beclear.
Maybe pay their rent in ashared apartment, that kind of
thing.
And the other thing I'm writingabout is Bob Dylan.
I just did a presentation at theInstitute for Bob Dylan Studies
in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I thinkit went pretty well, so I'm
going to turn it into an articlethat hopefully will be out with
next year or so.
Writing is just flat-out hardwork.
(23:02):
I often would say and I'mquoting somebody, many people
have said this I don't enjoywriting, but I enjoy having
written.
Yes, you know yes.
Relate to that Right.
You know what I mean,absolutely.
So, that's the thing, and it's agreat feeling when you see an
article or a book published.
It still is.
Yeah, that's a big reward ofwriting.
(23:23):
Exactly, but the writing partof it.
It'd be nice to just go rightto the end, you know.
MIRAV (23:29):
All right, well, thank you so much for sharing your
time and your expertise.
TOM (23:36):
Thank you, I enjoyed it Excellent.
MIRAV (23:41):
Okay, that's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
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