July 15, 2025 • 23 mins
Acupuncturist Career Insight - Exploring Alternative Healthcare Job.
What do you do when your job turns into a calling? Victoria Balentine built a thriving career as a Manhattan acupuncturist, specializing in women’s reproductive health. With a mix of East-meets-West smarts and sharp networking with top fertility docs, she turned her passion into a bustling practice.
In this episode, Victoria drops career insight gold—from building a small business to knowing when (and how!) to walk away. Whether you're curious about alternative healthcare or just craving some honest talk about what it takes to run your own show, her story has something for everyone.
Thinking about a career pivot? Hit play—you just might find your next chapter.
MCPHS Acupuncture Doctorate | Longest Running Program in US https://www.mcphs.edu/
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Music credit: Kate Pierson & Monica Nation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I was talking to a reproductive endocrinologist and
he said I don't believe inacupuncture, I think it's just
placebo.
And I said okay, but let'sthink about that statement for a
minute, right?
So placebo effect means itworks, right?
So I'm down with that.
So if you think it's justplacebo, we're all cool.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome back to how Much Can I Make?
I'm your host, miravu Zeri.
So fun fact.
Years ago I read that the horseracing industry started using
acupuncture back in 1970s totreat horses for muscle and
joint pains, back issues and allsorts of other conditions, and
I remember thinking if it worksfor racehorses, it's got to be
(00:46):
the real deal.
So I turned into acupuncturewhenever I needed it and it
never let me down.
I bring it up because today'sguest is Victoria Ballantyne,
who knows acupuncture in and out.
She ran a thriving clinic inManhattan for 20 years,
specializing in women'sreproductive health.
She worked with fertilitydoctors.
(01:07):
She taught other practitionersand built a business that was
impactful and successful.
If you ever consideredacupuncture entrepreneurship, or
just want to hear how passionmeets profit, this episode is
for you.
So, victoria, thank you so muchfor doing it.
My pleasure.
First of all, tell me what drewyou to acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Well, I've always been really interested in herbs,
since I was a teenager, and Ihave medicinal herbs and
alternative healing.
And so I was trying to be anactor in Manhattan in my 20s and
it wasn't happening for me andI kind of promised myself when I
turned 30, I would do somethingelse.
But I couldn't think of whatthat would be, because I love
the theater so much.
(01:50):
And then I kind of had thisrevelation one day where I
realized that in many culturesthe storyteller was actually
also the healer, right, so theymight have called it a shaman or
whatever it was, but the sameperson who was telling the
stories was also the person thathad the herbs and was doing the
healing and that kind of thing.
And I just thought, well, maybeit's the same thing.
So instead of creatingcatharsis by doing a play that
(02:11):
helps move people or increasetheir empathy and sort of
healing through that, maybe I'llhear heal on a much more
individual basis.
And so then I looked to seewhat modality I wanted to use
and I found out that acupunctureis a huge thing, but also herbs
Chinese herbs are also a hugepart of that medicine.
And I thought, wow, I can be alicensed herbalist and an
(02:33):
acupuncturist, I can be a healer.
And so I started looking atschools and programs, did you?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
used to do acupuncture as a patient first.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, I did try it because I wanted to make sure
that it was something that Iwanted to be able to do and I
liked it very much, butinitially I was way more
interested in the herb aspect ofit.
I fell in love with theacupuncture later, but it was
important to me at that time tomake sure that whatever it was
that I did professionally, thatI would be licensed, because
back then it was really hard toget a license as an alternative
(03:03):
healthcare practitioner and Iwanted to make sure that I could
be recognized and, in thefuture, even possibly take
insurance.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So how did you start your practice?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Well, I went to a four-year program when Pacific
College of Oriental Medicine inManhattan.
I actually looked all over thecountry for the best programs.
There was a really good one inSan Francisco, there was a
really good one in Seattle, butby then I was already teaching
yoga full time and I was livingin New York and I just thought
well, you know what?
It's probably going to bepretty straightforward to parlay
(03:33):
all those yoga students intopatients.
I mean, certainly not all ofthem, but that would be a really
great foundation for thebeginning of a practice, cause
at that time I was teachingprobably 300 students a week.
Whoa, I had big classes yogaclasses, yeah yeah, wow, a bunch
of gyms and all that kind ofstuff.
So I just thought that it'sit's going to be easier to start
a business with that kind ofintegration into the world than
(03:56):
moving to Seattle and trying tostart it there where I don't
know anyone, if that makes senseyeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So what kind of things did you treat for at the
beginning?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Um, the usual stuff at first.
So migraines, back pain, neckpain.
I actually took a course atMemorial Sloan Kettering for
palliative care with cancer care, so I had some cancer patients.
I've always had a few cancerpatients here and there.
Acupuncture obviously doesn'ttreat cancer, but it can treat
the side effects of the drugsthat you take when you're going
(04:24):
through cancer treatment.
So it's really great forinsomnia and nausea and anxiety
and all that kind of stuff.
But then I had a patient who hadrecurrent miscarriage and she
was a yoga student and shereally wanted me to treat her.
And I looked at her case and itwas so complex.
I just said, Lucy, I can't, youknow, you need to find someone
who's been practicing for yearsand years and years.
(04:46):
And she said absolutely not.
It's going to be you or it'sgoing to be no one.
And I thought, well, okay.
So, being the type Apersonality that I am, I just
started researching women'sreproductive health and she
carried to term, which wasamazing.
And her son Henry actually gosh, he's in college now.
He's 21 years old, he's amazing, Wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
How can acupuncture help?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
reproductive system.
There's so much to say aboutthat, right?
So there are so many reasonswhy someone may struggle to get
pregnant, right?
They might have polycysticovarian syndrome, they might
have endometriosis, they mighthave poor ovarian reserve, they
might have implantation failure,psychological barrier Sure.
(05:31):
They might have recurrent earlymiscarriage, they might have
recurrent late miscarriage.
So part of what you do is youfigure out the why, so what,
what's really happening, andthen you start treating from
there and you treat both withthe acupuncture and the herbs
but wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
You said something interesting.
Sloan catering is a veryestablished Western medicine.
Yeah, was there any kind ofconflict between Western and
Eastern?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So they really in early days and I don't know what
they're up to now, but in earlydays they really tried to be
open to alternative medicine.
I think part of it becausetheir patients were really
interested in it and part of itbecause they were open-minded
about it.
So I didn't really find anyconflict.
I thought that the program thatthey had to certify me was
thorough and interesting.
And if you tell someone thatacupuncture treats cancer,
(06:17):
that's not true, right.
So you can treat the symptomsthat you might have, but you're
not gonna treat cancer.
So from that point of viewthere was never any conflict
between East and West.
Does that make sense?
Because I had my lane and theyhad their lane.
Now, with reproductive health.
Actually, then it got reallyreally mixed up because I have
(06:39):
my lane that frequently wentinto their lane, which sometimes
reproductive endocrinologistsdidn't love.
But I learned to work with themand they learned to work with
me because statistically and weran statistics for our patients
in the same way that they runtheir statistics Statistically
my patients did actually haveongoing implantation rates,
ongoing pregnancy rates and livebirth rates that were higher
than without acupuncture.
(06:59):
Wow, now remember, in a studythat doesn't count, right,
because you've self-selected,it's not placebo, it's not
double blind and all that kindof stuff.
But if you just look at thestatistics, I was something was
happening.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I know you ran the clinic for 20 years.
I did.
What do you think contribute toyour success most than anything
?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I think I was always incredibly straightforward.
I never wasted people's time ormoney.
I would always tell you whetheror not I thought I could help
you, how long I thought it wouldtake.
I was very not woo-woo.
I'm extremely pragmatic.
I would not throw a bunch ofsupplements at you that might
work.
I was very specific and clinicaland I really knew the Western
(07:43):
medicine aspect of it.
I read all the journals thatreproductive endocrinologists
were reading.
I was up on everything, all thecurrent research.
So if a patient came in andwanted to ask me a question
about their treatment, generallyspeaking, I could give them an
extremely educated answer that Ithink their reproductive
endocrinologist would haveabsolutely approved of and said
yes, that's exactly what we'redoing.
(08:04):
But frequently those doctorsdidn't have the time to sit and
talk with someone for 20 minutesand explain to them why clomid
was not going to work for themand why they might need to do
another drug like, or IVF, etc.
Etc.
So I could spend that time withthem.
The other thing I think I wasreally good at is helping
patients find the right doctor,because some reproductive
(08:25):
endocrinologists are much betterat poor ovarian reserve and
older women that are trying toget pregnant.
Some are much better atpolycystic ovarian syndrome.
Some are much better atimplantation failure.
They all had, like, theirskills and because I've been
doing it for so long and Italked to them so much, I could
kind of figure out what was thebest fit for a patient.
And that was a pretty uniqueskill.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
So, between treating patients and doing all this
research and reading all thesearticles, it was a 24-hour job,
right.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Actually, interestingly no, because I
found really great employees andso in the beginning it was a
seven-day-a-week job and I wasgetting burnout really quickly
because my patients wouldn't seeanybody else and let's say they
were doing an IVF cycle.
Wouldn't see anybody else, andlet's say they were doing an IVF
cycle.
The classic literature backthen was acupuncture just before
and just after.
Ivf transfer increases yourongoing pregnancy rates by blah,
(09:17):
blah, blah, blah.
So frequently they'd transfer ona Sunday, or they'd transfer on
a Saturday, or they'd transferon Christmas I'm you know I'm
exaggerating, but and theydidn't want to see anybody but
me, and so it was seven days aweek and I just thought, OK,
this isn't going to work.
And so what I did was I cut mywork week to four days.
I found someone amazing who wasgoing to be there the other
three days a week and they wereused to her, so they would see
(09:40):
me and they would see her andthey saw us together, and so
then they were OK seeing her.
So I actually worked four daysa week for most of that 20 years
out of necessity, because Ineeded patients to be more
comfortable with someone otherthan me, and because of that she
would usually take over mypractice for the month of August
and the month of December and Iwould go on vacation.
(10:00):
I do my water stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
You're sailing?
Yeah, I'm sailing.
If somebody wants to get intothe field or wants to change
jobs and get into acupuncture,what would you recommend they do
?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Well, first they have to go to school, so you have to
get in.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Usually, how long of a program is it?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Well, it depends on if you want to do acupuncture
and herbs or whether you want todo acupuncture alone, which I
think isn't a great service toChinese medicine.
Chinese medicine really is both, and there are things that
herbs can do that acupuncturecan't, and vice versa.
But if you just want to doacupuncture, I think you can do
it in like two and a half years,but if you want to do both
things, it's close to four years.
So I went to school year round,so summer's included, for three
(10:39):
and three quarters years.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
So then you go to school and then do you have to
intern with somebody?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
You do that during while you're at school.
But then you can do continuingmedical education credits, which
I actually taught all over thecountry.
People would fly me in to speakabout reproductive
endocrinology and acupunctureand women's reproductive health
and all that kind of stuff.
So you can you can andcertainly should take extra
courses after you graduate orwhile you're in school if you
(11:06):
wanted to specialize, but youdon't have to.
I think probably the hardestthing about starting a practice
now is like with any smallbusiness.
I mean, there's small business,is small business, right,
they're all the same.
We always think that, you know,manufacturing is gonna be
different than healthcare, it'sgonna be different than
computers or internet.
It's all the same thing.
It's so weird.
(11:26):
Someone said that to me rightwhen I was starting out and I
just thought, oh well, you know,he'd started a bunch of
internet companies reallysuccessful, and he was like it's
all the same.
And I was like I'm a healthcarepractitioner, I'm a healer, I'm
not, and he was totally right.
So I think starting a smallbusiness is capital right
Research when can you work?
So I think New York City isprobably super saturated with
(11:48):
acupuncturists right now, but Ihear that in like Alabama
there's four acupuncturists.
So if you're willing to movedown there, you would have
people coming out of the doorbecause there's just not enough
practitioners for the peoplethat are interested in getting
acupuncture.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yes, but about being in Manhattan or a big
metropolitan with hugecompetition.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Right, how did you stand out?
Again?
I well, I mean I had thatbeautiful base of patients sorry
, of yoga students that many ofwhom became patients or told
other people about me, and sothat was like that first wave
that I rode.
Well, yeah, then it's back tosmall business, right?
So then I was like, how do Iput myself out there?
And at first I did it throughreproductive endocrinologists.
(12:31):
So I would go to them and I'dsay here are my stats for the
past year, here are your statsfor the past year.
Do you notice a difference?
You know what I mean.
So I did that.
Then there was early days ofGoogle AdWords.
So I spent literally over.
I mean, for a small business Imean numbers are meaningless
because a big business, smallbusiness, but for me it was a
lot of money.
(12:51):
I mean I was spending, you know,$100,000 a year on yeah, on
Google AdWords, and I'm probablyexaggerating a little bit, but
it was a lot and that wasbecause I needed to be on the
first page of Google and that's,back then, how you did it.
And you know, every morning youwake up and you're trying to
gamble Is it 5 cents a click?
Is it 25 cents a click?
How do I stay there?
And then there was searchengine optimization.
(13:13):
There was all that kind ofstuff.
And then there was again thedirect referrals from doctors,
scheduling meetings for them,getting them to realize that
they could take me seriously,and you know all that kind of
stuff.
But that's all just smallbusiness.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Right.
And what would you say?
What kind of skills do youthink somebody needs to have in
order to be successful in thisbusiness?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
The first thing that comes to mind is you've got to
be able to run your own businessunless you want to be an
employee, right?
So, generally speaking,acupuncturists at an hourly wage
don't necessarily make greatmoney.
So if you want to be a greatacupuncturist, go to a really
good school.
Study the medicine, know everypoint, know every herb, know the
(13:53):
Latin, know the opinion, knowthe Chinese, like know
everything.
Super saturate yourself.
Follow healers that you thinkare really good, learn from them
, which I definitely did.
So I guess I wouldn't call itinterning, I just basically like
can I follow you please?
So yeah, it's that combinationof being a really great healer,
learning to listen, learning toempathize, learning to budget
(14:14):
your time, figuring out what tocharge and how to do pro bono
and when you should offer freetreatment, and I can talk all
about that, because it was aninteresting journey.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yes, I would like to, but again small business.
It's really, you know, it's athing what would you say, is if
somebody wants to get in thepotential earning for a business
like that.
Well, I mean aside from payingrent and all of that.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, I mean and but actually, but aside from like,
what does that even mean?
Right?
So if you're in Manhattan,you're paying five to $10,000 a
month in rent, depending on yourspace, right when you want to
be located.
And then you have to think ofall those things.
So is it better for me to havea nicer, bigger office farther
away from Midtown or is itbetter for me to take something
(14:56):
smaller right in the middle ofeverything so people can get to
me easily?
I mean, those are just thedecisions that you have to make.
I charge $120 a patient.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And when I was busy I saw two patients per hour.
That's not bad, yeah, that'snot bad, that's very good.
So but you know that's beforeexpenses, so but you know that's
before expenses and that's alsoremember they're busy months
and they're less busy months.
So one of the reasons I wouldleave in August and December and
go sailing was because Augustall of my patients were in the
(15:25):
Hamptons and December nobody didIVF because they were with
family and they would usuallystop treatment sometime in early
November and resume treatmentsometime in late January.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I know that you eventually, after 20 years, you
sold your business.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I did.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
What's the process of selling a business like?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
You can have someone come in that is a professional
evaluator and you can pay them acertain amount of money and
they're going to tell you whatyour practice is worth.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
And that is very helpful for you to understand
what your practice is worth, butalso for a potential buyer that
this non-biased person has saidyour practice is worth $5.
And then that everybody agreesthat $5 is the amount of money.
So I had someone come in andevaluate my practice and then I
had a lovely employee at thattime and I wanted to really give
(16:12):
her the longest runway possibleto let her know I was probably
selling.
So I literally said I'm gettingthe business evaluated because
I wanted to be completelytransparent about it, and she
came to me the next day and mademe an offer.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Cause she knew what the value of the business was.
She had boots on the ground,and so I sold it to her.
Oh, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, what would you say is the biggest misconception
about acupuncture?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Well, a fun one is I was talking to a reproductive
endocrinologist and he said Idon't believe in acupuncture, I
think it's just placebo.
And I said, okay, but let'sthink about that statement for a
minute, right?
So placebo effect means itworks, so I'm down with that.
(16:56):
So if you think it's justplacebo, we're all cool because
that means it works, sotherefore it works.
Do you know what I mean?
So I just thought that washilarious, that yeah, it's just
placebo, therefore it doesn'twork.
No, no, no, that is placebo,but misconception.
Well, first of all, I I reallydislike when any practitioner of
any modality of medicine saysthey can fix or heal anything.
(17:18):
It drives me bananas, right?
That's just not true, right?
So my husband is an emergencyphysician.
If you break your arm, you needto go to him, right?
Don't come to me.
So I think that you knowacupuncture has very specific
things that it's wonderful atand really effective, and you
see that effect immediately.
If you're doing it over andover and nothing is happening,
(17:39):
there's something wrong.
But saying that it works foreverything is just completely
not true, and that's true forany medicine.
But frequently we say, oh, itfixes everything.
Of course it doesn't.
What was the most rewardingexperience you had.
I'm such a feminist and I sobelieve in women having the time
to have a life and to have acareer and to get educated and
(18:00):
do all these extraordinarythings to find the right guy,
right To not rush into anything.
And frequently that means thatthey may not try to conceive
until they're in their mid tolate thirties or even their
early forties, and I lovedsupporting those women and you
know, the odds are stackedagainst them a little bit and we
can talk about all of that andwhy, why that biological clock
(18:22):
starts ticking and all of that.
There's so much to say, but theshort of it is helping women
get pregnant and realize thatdream of having children, like
it just never gets old.
It's so wonderful, you know,and I, for years, I get pictures
here's the baby at one, here heis at four, here he is at eight
.
And like every time I get oneof those cards or letters, I
mean I just fall to pieces.
(18:42):
It's amazing to help someonehave a baby.
I mean, my goodness right.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That's a big one.
Yeah, that's big yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
And what was the biggest challenge?
Business, small business,always, you know.
One day, for instance, I was onthe first page of Google at
that point because of my searchengine optimization and like I'd
spent a fortune on that, right,but it was worth every penny
because I was on the first pageof Google, just as one example
of so many things.
And then one night, googlechanged their engine to
something new called Panda.
I think this was in like 2013.
And suddenly I was just gone,like I don't know what page I
(19:16):
was on, but I was just out ofthere, right.
So immediately my new patientswent down by, say, 30%.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Wow, well, just you know, that's the nature of it
Right, so I'm getting referralsfrom doctors getting referrals
from other patients.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
But you know, google was really helpful at that time
not always.
So now I'm trying to figure outhow to do, how to how to get
that 30% back.
So what do I literally need todo?
So at first I just threw moneyat Google and search engine
optimization.
That did nothing.
I was completely outcompetedbecause everybody's suddenly
going to the same space at thesame time.
So then I went back to myoriginal model, which is talking
(19:52):
to doctors.
So I just started pounding ondoors again.
You know, metaphoricallyspeaking, but you know
scheduling meetings.
You know I've been practicingfor 15 years.
I teach other acupuncturiststhese are the reproductive
endocrinologists I work with,these are my skills and then
just sort of slowly getting myfoot in the door and starting to
get them to refer to me.
So you know things like that,you're always.
(20:19):
You know things like that,you're always.
You know small business is awave.
You're always surfing it Like.
Things change all the time andI think some small businesses
like, once they get going,they're rolling, they're good,
but most of the people that Iknow that own small businesses
are constantly having toreevaluate and rethink and
retool to just, you know, tokeep moving forward.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You said teaching other people, other people to do
acupuncture.
Was it to supplement yourincome?
Was it good?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I love teaching.
First of all, I felt that I hada unique skill set and
something to offer.
There wasn't really a coursewhen I started out there
specifically about acupuncture,herbs and women's reproductive
health, so I kind of createdthat course and then I loved
teaching it because I again togo back to wasting people's time
(21:00):
or money or all that kind ofstuff I wanted to make sure that
someone that came to my classwould have the tools to know
what they could treat, what theycouldn't treat, what to use,
what herbs work, what herbsdon't work.
You know what I mean, Like howto find a good endocrinologist A
way of really making sure thatif someone took my class and
learned what I had to offer,that they would be able to honor
(21:21):
their own patients in theirjourney to having children and
that they would be the best thatthey could be.
Can you do acupuncture?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
on yourself.
No, no.
No, did you used to go totreatment with other people.
Oh yeah, of course.
Yeah, do you still do thatOccasionally, sure?
What do you miss the most about?
Speaker 1 (21:39):
it.
You know, it's kind of likewhen people say what do you miss
about living in New York City?
I don't necessarily Do.
You know what I mean?
I'm still practicing, so Istill treat patients here.
Just instead of seeing 50people a week, I see five, right
, so I still get to keep myskill set up.
(21:59):
I'm still helping women getpregnant.
I'm still doing it.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I know some people that come to you for acupuncture
and they love it.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
They swear by it yeah so that's really nice to hear,
thank you.
And so I'm still doing it.
So I don't miss it from thatpoint of view.
And do I miss running a smallbusiness in Manhattan and all
the strum and drang and madnessof that?
I don't miss it from that pointof view, and do I miss running
a small business in Manhattanand all the strum and drang and
madness of that?
I don't, you know what I mean.
Like it's so nice to have soldit and to let all of that go and
to just be able to just see afew people a week.
(22:26):
It's fantastic.
So I'm essentially retired andit's really nice.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
All right, well thank you very much, of course.
Okay, that's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
(22:50):
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
I was talking to a reproductive endocrinologist and
he said I don't believe inacupuncture, I think it's just
placebo.
And I said okay, but let'sthink about that statement for a
minute, right?
So placebo effect means itworks, right?
So I'm down with that.
So if you think it's justplacebo, we're all cool.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Welcome back to how Much Can I Make?
I'm your host, miravu Zeri.
So fun fact.
Years ago I read that the horseracing industry started using
acupuncture back in 1970s totreat horses for muscle and
joint pains, back issues and allsorts of other conditions, and
I remember thinking if it worksfor racehorses, it's got to be
(00:46):
the real deal.
So I turned into acupuncturewhenever I needed it and it
never let me down.
I bring it up because today'sguest is Victoria Ballantyne,
who knows acupuncture in and out.
She ran a thriving clinic inManhattan for 20 years,
specializing in women'sreproductive health.
She worked with fertilitydoctors.
(01:07):
She taught other practitionersand built a business that was
impactful and successful.
If you ever consideredacupuncture entrepreneurship, or
just want to hear how passionmeets profit, this episode is
for you.
So, victoria, thank you so muchfor doing it.
My pleasure.
First of all, tell me what drewyou to acupuncture.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Well, I've always been really interested in herbs,
since I was a teenager, and Ihave medicinal herbs and
alternative healing.
And so I was trying to be anactor in Manhattan in my 20s and
it wasn't happening for me andI kind of promised myself when I
turned 30, I would do somethingelse.
But I couldn't think of whatthat would be, because I love
the theater so much.
(01:50):
And then I kind of had thisrevelation one day where I
realized that in many culturesthe storyteller was actually
also the healer, right, so theymight have called it a shaman or
whatever it was, but the sameperson who was telling the
stories was also the person thathad the herbs and was doing the
healing and that kind of thing.
And I just thought, well, maybeit's the same thing.
So instead of creatingcatharsis by doing a play that
(02:11):
helps move people or increasetheir empathy and sort of
healing through that, maybe I'llhear heal on a much more
individual basis.
And so then I looked to seewhat modality I wanted to use
and I found out that acupunctureis a huge thing, but also herbs
Chinese herbs are also a hugepart of that medicine.
And I thought, wow, I can be alicensed herbalist and an
(02:33):
acupuncturist, I can be a healer.
And so I started looking atschools and programs, did you?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
used to do acupuncture as a patient first.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, I did try it because I wanted to make sure
that it was something that Iwanted to be able to do and I
liked it very much, butinitially I was way more
interested in the herb aspect ofit.
I fell in love with theacupuncture later, but it was
important to me at that time tomake sure that whatever it was
that I did professionally, thatI would be licensed, because
back then it was really hard toget a license as an alternative
(03:03):
healthcare practitioner and Iwanted to make sure that I could
be recognized and, in thefuture, even possibly take
insurance.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So how did you start your practice?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Well, I went to a four-year program when Pacific
College of Oriental Medicine inManhattan.
I actually looked all over thecountry for the best programs.
There was a really good one inSan Francisco, there was a
really good one in Seattle, butby then I was already teaching
yoga full time and I was livingin New York and I just thought
well, you know what?
It's probably going to bepretty straightforward to parlay
(03:33):
all those yoga students intopatients.
I mean, certainly not all ofthem, but that would be a really
great foundation for thebeginning of a practice, cause
at that time I was teachingprobably 300 students a week.
Whoa, I had big classes yogaclasses, yeah yeah, wow, a bunch
of gyms and all that kind ofstuff.
So I just thought that it'sit's going to be easier to start
a business with that kind ofintegration into the world than
(03:56):
moving to Seattle and trying tostart it there where I don't
know anyone, if that makes senseyeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
So what kind of things did you treat for at the
beginning?
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Um, the usual stuff at first.
So migraines, back pain, neckpain.
I actually took a course atMemorial Sloan Kettering for
palliative care with cancer care, so I had some cancer patients.
I've always had a few cancerpatients here and there.
Acupuncture obviously doesn'ttreat cancer, but it can treat
the side effects of the drugsthat you take when you're going
(04:24):
through cancer treatment.
So it's really great forinsomnia and nausea and anxiety
and all that kind of stuff.
But then I had a patient who hadrecurrent miscarriage and she
was a yoga student and shereally wanted me to treat her.
And I looked at her case and itwas so complex.
I just said, Lucy, I can't, youknow, you need to find someone
who's been practicing for yearsand years and years.
(04:46):
And she said absolutely not.
It's going to be you or it'sgoing to be no one.
And I thought, well, okay.
So, being the type Apersonality that I am, I just
started researching women'sreproductive health and she
carried to term, which wasamazing.
And her son Henry actually gosh, he's in college now.
He's 21 years old, he's amazing, Wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
How can acupuncture help?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
reproductive system.
There's so much to say aboutthat, right?
So there are so many reasonswhy someone may struggle to get
pregnant, right?
They might have polycysticovarian syndrome, they might
have endometriosis, they mighthave poor ovarian reserve, they
might have implantation failure,psychological barrier Sure.
(05:31):
They might have recurrent earlymiscarriage, they might have
recurrent late miscarriage.
So part of what you do is youfigure out the why, so what,
what's really happening, andthen you start treating from
there and you treat both withthe acupuncture and the herbs
but wait a minute.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
You said something interesting.
Sloan catering is a veryestablished Western medicine.
Yeah, was there any kind ofconflict between Western and
Eastern?
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So they really in early days and I don't know what
they're up to now, but in earlydays they really tried to be
open to alternative medicine.
I think part of it becausetheir patients were really
interested in it and part of itbecause they were open-minded
about it.
So I didn't really find anyconflict.
I thought that the program thatthey had to certify me was
thorough and interesting.
And if you tell someone thatacupuncture treats cancer,
(06:17):
that's not true, right.
So you can treat the symptomsthat you might have, but you're
not gonna treat cancer.
So from that point of viewthere was never any conflict
between East and West.
Does that make sense?
Because I had my lane and theyhad their lane.
Now, with reproductive health.
Actually, then it got reallyreally mixed up because I have
(06:39):
my lane that frequently wentinto their lane, which sometimes
reproductive endocrinologistsdidn't love.
But I learned to work with themand they learned to work with
me because statistically and weran statistics for our patients
in the same way that they runtheir statistics Statistically
my patients did actually haveongoing implantation rates,
ongoing pregnancy rates and livebirth rates that were higher
than without acupuncture.
(06:59):
Wow, now remember, in a studythat doesn't count, right,
because you've self-selected,it's not placebo, it's not
double blind and all that kindof stuff.
But if you just look at thestatistics, I was something was
happening.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
I know you ran the clinic for 20 years.
I did.
What do you think contribute toyour success most than anything
?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I think I was always incredibly straightforward.
I never wasted people's time ormoney.
I would always tell you whetheror not I thought I could help
you, how long I thought it wouldtake.
I was very not woo-woo.
I'm extremely pragmatic.
I would not throw a bunch ofsupplements at you that might
work.
I was very specific and clinicaland I really knew the Western
(07:43):
medicine aspect of it.
I read all the journals thatreproductive endocrinologists
were reading.
I was up on everything, all thecurrent research.
So if a patient came in andwanted to ask me a question
about their treatment, generallyspeaking, I could give them an
extremely educated answer that Ithink their reproductive
endocrinologist would haveabsolutely approved of and said
yes, that's exactly what we'redoing.
(08:04):
But frequently those doctorsdidn't have the time to sit and
talk with someone for 20 minutesand explain to them why clomid
was not going to work for themand why they might need to do
another drug like, or IVF, etc.
Etc.
So I could spend that time withthem.
The other thing I think I wasreally good at is helping
patients find the right doctor,because some reproductive
(08:25):
endocrinologists are much betterat poor ovarian reserve and
older women that are trying toget pregnant.
Some are much better atpolycystic ovarian syndrome.
Some are much better atimplantation failure.
They all had, like, theirskills and because I've been
doing it for so long and Italked to them so much, I could
kind of figure out what was thebest fit for a patient.
And that was a pretty uniqueskill.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
So, between treating patients and doing all this
research and reading all thesearticles, it was a 24-hour job,
right.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Actually, interestingly no, because I
found really great employees andso in the beginning it was a
seven-day-a-week job and I wasgetting burnout really quickly
because my patients wouldn't seeanybody else and let's say they
were doing an IVF cycle.
Wouldn't see anybody else, andlet's say they were doing an IVF
cycle.
The classic literature backthen was acupuncture just before
and just after.
Ivf transfer increases yourongoing pregnancy rates by blah,
(09:17):
blah, blah, blah.
So frequently they'd transfer ona Sunday, or they'd transfer on
a Saturday, or they'd transferon Christmas I'm you know I'm
exaggerating, but and theydidn't want to see anybody but
me, and so it was seven days aweek and I just thought, OK,
this isn't going to work.
And so what I did was I cut mywork week to four days.
I found someone amazing who wasgoing to be there the other
three days a week and they wereused to her, so they would see
(09:40):
me and they would see her andthey saw us together, and so
then they were OK seeing her.
So I actually worked four daysa week for most of that 20 years
out of necessity, because Ineeded patients to be more
comfortable with someone otherthan me, and because of that she
would usually take over mypractice for the month of August
and the month of December and Iwould go on vacation.
(10:00):
I do my water stuff.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
You're sailing?
Yeah, I'm sailing.
If somebody wants to get intothe field or wants to change
jobs and get into acupuncture,what would you recommend they do
?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Well, first they have to go to school, so you have to
get in.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Usually, how long of a program is it?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Well, it depends on if you want to do acupuncture
and herbs or whether you want todo acupuncture alone, which I
think isn't a great service toChinese medicine.
Chinese medicine really is both, and there are things that
herbs can do that acupuncturecan't, and vice versa.
But if you just want to doacupuncture, I think you can do
it in like two and a half years,but if you want to do both
things, it's close to four years.
So I went to school year round,so summer's included, for three
(10:39):
and three quarters years.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
So then you go to school and then do you have to
intern with somebody?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
You do that during while you're at school.
But then you can do continuingmedical education credits, which
I actually taught all over thecountry.
People would fly me in to speakabout reproductive
endocrinology and acupunctureand women's reproductive health
and all that kind of stuff.
So you can you can andcertainly should take extra
courses after you graduate orwhile you're in school if you
(11:06):
wanted to specialize, but youdon't have to.
I think probably the hardestthing about starting a practice
now is like with any smallbusiness.
I mean, there's small business,is small business, right,
they're all the same.
We always think that, you know,manufacturing is gonna be
different than healthcare, it'sgonna be different than
computers or internet.
It's all the same thing.
It's so weird.
(11:26):
Someone said that to me rightwhen I was starting out and I
just thought, oh well, you know,he'd started a bunch of
internet companies reallysuccessful, and he was like it's
all the same.
And I was like I'm a healthcarepractitioner, I'm a healer, I'm
not, and he was totally right.
So I think starting a smallbusiness is capital right
Research when can you work?
So I think New York City isprobably super saturated with
(11:48):
acupuncturists right now, but Ihear that in like Alabama
there's four acupuncturists.
So if you're willing to movedown there, you would have
people coming out of the doorbecause there's just not enough
practitioners for the peoplethat are interested in getting
acupuncture.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yes, but about being in Manhattan or a big
metropolitan with hugecompetition.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Right, how did you stand out?
Again?
I well, I mean I had thatbeautiful base of patients sorry
, of yoga students that many ofwhom became patients or told
other people about me, and sothat was like that first wave
that I rode.
Well, yeah, then it's back tosmall business, right?
So then I was like, how do Iput myself out there?
And at first I did it throughreproductive endocrinologists.
(12:31):
So I would go to them and I'dsay here are my stats for the
past year, here are your statsfor the past year.
Do you notice a difference?
You know what I mean.
So I did that.
Then there was early days ofGoogle AdWords.
So I spent literally over.
I mean, for a small business Imean numbers are meaningless
because a big business, smallbusiness, but for me it was a
lot of money.
(12:51):
I mean I was spending, you know,$100,000 a year on yeah, on
Google AdWords, and I'm probablyexaggerating a little bit, but
it was a lot and that wasbecause I needed to be on the
first page of Google and that's,back then, how you did it.
And you know, every morning youwake up and you're trying to
gamble Is it 5 cents a click?
Is it 25 cents a click?
How do I stay there?
And then there was searchengine optimization.
(13:13):
There was all that kind ofstuff.
And then there was again thedirect referrals from doctors,
scheduling meetings for them,getting them to realize that
they could take me seriously,and you know all that kind of
stuff.
But that's all just smallbusiness.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Right.
And what would you say?
What kind of skills do youthink somebody needs to have in
order to be successful in thisbusiness?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
The first thing that comes to mind is you've got to
be able to run your own businessunless you want to be an
employee, right?
So, generally speaking,acupuncturists at an hourly wage
don't necessarily make greatmoney.
So if you want to be a greatacupuncturist, go to a really
good school.
Study the medicine, know everypoint, know every herb, know the
(13:53):
Latin, know the opinion, knowthe Chinese, like know
everything.
Super saturate yourself.
Follow healers that you thinkare really good, learn from them
, which I definitely did.
So I guess I wouldn't call itinterning, I just basically like
can I follow you please?
So yeah, it's that combinationof being a really great healer,
learning to listen, learning toempathize, learning to budget
(14:14):
your time, figuring out what tocharge and how to do pro bono
and when you should offer freetreatment, and I can talk all
about that, because it was aninteresting journey.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Yes, I would like to, but again small business.
It's really, you know, it's athing what would you say, is if
somebody wants to get in thepotential earning for a business
like that.
Well, I mean aside from payingrent and all of that.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, I mean and but actually, but aside from like,
what does that even mean?
Right?
So if you're in Manhattan,you're paying five to $10,000 a
month in rent, depending on yourspace, right when you want to
be located.
And then you have to think ofall those things.
So is it better for me to havea nicer, bigger office farther
away from Midtown or is itbetter for me to take something
(14:56):
smaller right in the middle ofeverything so people can get to
me easily?
I mean, those are just thedecisions that you have to make.
I charge $120 a patient.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And when I was busy I saw two patients per hour.
That's not bad, yeah, that'snot bad, that's very good.
So but you know that's beforeexpenses, so but you know that's
before expenses and that's alsoremember they're busy months
and they're less busy months.
So one of the reasons I wouldleave in August and December and
go sailing was because Augustall of my patients were in the
(15:25):
Hamptons and December nobody didIVF because they were with
family and they would usuallystop treatment sometime in early
November and resume treatmentsometime in late January.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
I know that you eventually, after 20 years, you
sold your business.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I did.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
What's the process of selling a business like?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
You can have someone come in that is a professional
evaluator and you can pay them acertain amount of money and
they're going to tell you whatyour practice is worth.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
And that is very helpful for you to understand
what your practice is worth, butalso for a potential buyer that
this non-biased person has saidyour practice is worth $5.
And then that everybody agreesthat $5 is the amount of money.
So I had someone come in andevaluate my practice and then I
had a lovely employee at thattime and I wanted to really give
(16:12):
her the longest runway possibleto let her know I was probably
selling.
So I literally said I'm gettingthe business evaluated because
I wanted to be completelytransparent about it, and she
came to me the next day and mademe an offer.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Cause she knew what the value of the business was.
She had boots on the ground,and so I sold it to her.
Oh, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, what would you say is the biggest misconception
about acupuncture?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Well, a fun one is I was talking to a reproductive
endocrinologist and he said Idon't believe in acupuncture, I
think it's just placebo.
And I said, okay, but let'sthink about that statement for a
minute, right?
So placebo effect means itworks, so I'm down with that.
(16:56):
So if you think it's justplacebo, we're all cool because
that means it works, sotherefore it works.
Do you know what I mean?
So I just thought that washilarious, that yeah, it's just
placebo, therefore it doesn'twork.
No, no, no, that is placebo,but misconception.
Well, first of all, I I reallydislike when any practitioner of
any modality of medicine saysthey can fix or heal anything.
(17:18):
It drives me bananas, right?
That's just not true, right?
So my husband is an emergencyphysician.
If you break your arm, you needto go to him, right?
Don't come to me.
So I think that you knowacupuncture has very specific
things that it's wonderful atand really effective, and you
see that effect immediately.
If you're doing it over andover and nothing is happening,
(17:39):
there's something wrong.
But saying that it works foreverything is just completely
not true, and that's true forany medicine.
But frequently we say, oh, itfixes everything.
Of course it doesn't.
What was the most rewardingexperience you had.
I'm such a feminist and I sobelieve in women having the time
to have a life and to have acareer and to get educated and
(18:00):
do all these extraordinarythings to find the right guy,
right To not rush into anything.
And frequently that means thatthey may not try to conceive
until they're in their mid tolate thirties or even their
early forties, and I lovedsupporting those women and you
know, the odds are stackedagainst them a little bit and we
can talk about all of that andwhy, why that biological clock
(18:22):
starts ticking and all of that.
There's so much to say, but theshort of it is helping women
get pregnant and realize thatdream of having children, like
it just never gets old.
It's so wonderful, you know,and I, for years, I get pictures
here's the baby at one, here heis at four, here he is at eight
.
And like every time I get oneof those cards or letters, I
mean I just fall to pieces.
(18:42):
It's amazing to help someonehave a baby.
I mean, my goodness right.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That's a big one.
Yeah, that's big yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
And what was the biggest challenge?
Business, small business,always, you know.
One day, for instance, I was onthe first page of Google at
that point because of my searchengine optimization and like I'd
spent a fortune on that, right,but it was worth every penny
because I was on the first pageof Google, just as one example
of so many things.
And then one night, googlechanged their engine to
something new called Panda.
I think this was in like 2013.
And suddenly I was just gone,like I don't know what page I
(19:16):
was on, but I was just out ofthere, right.
So immediately my new patientswent down by, say, 30%.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Wow, well, just you know, that's the nature of it
Right, so I'm getting referralsfrom doctors getting referrals
from other patients.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
But you know, google was really helpful at that time
not always.
So now I'm trying to figure outhow to do, how to how to get
that 30% back.
So what do I literally need todo?
So at first I just threw moneyat Google and search engine
optimization.
That did nothing.
I was completely outcompetedbecause everybody's suddenly
going to the same space at thesame time.
So then I went back to myoriginal model, which is talking
(19:52):
to doctors.
So I just started pounding ondoors again.
You know, metaphoricallyspeaking, but you know
scheduling meetings.
You know I've been practicingfor 15 years.
I teach other acupuncturiststhese are the reproductive
endocrinologists I work with,these are my skills and then
just sort of slowly getting myfoot in the door and starting to
get them to refer to me.
So you know things like that,you're always.
(20:19):
You know things like that,you're always.
You know small business is awave.
You're always surfing it Like.
Things change all the time andI think some small businesses
like, once they get going,they're rolling, they're good,
but most of the people that Iknow that own small businesses
are constantly having toreevaluate and rethink and
retool to just, you know, tokeep moving forward.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You said teaching other people, other people to do
acupuncture.
Was it to supplement yourincome?
Was it good?
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I love teaching.
First of all, I felt that I hada unique skill set and
something to offer.
There wasn't really a coursewhen I started out there
specifically about acupuncture,herbs and women's reproductive
health, so I kind of createdthat course and then I loved
teaching it because I again togo back to wasting people's time
(21:00):
or money or all that kind ofstuff I wanted to make sure that
someone that came to my classwould have the tools to know
what they could treat, what theycouldn't treat, what to use,
what herbs work, what herbsdon't work.
You know what I mean, Like howto find a good endocrinologist A
way of really making sure thatif someone took my class and
learned what I had to offer,that they would be able to honor
(21:21):
their own patients in theirjourney to having children and
that they would be the best thatthey could be.
Can you do acupuncture?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
on yourself.
No, no.
No, did you used to go totreatment with other people.
Oh yeah, of course.
Yeah, do you still do thatOccasionally, sure?
What do you miss the most about?
Speaker 1 (21:39):
it.
You know, it's kind of likewhen people say what do you miss
about living in New York City?
I don't necessarily Do.
You know what I mean?
I'm still practicing, so Istill treat patients here.
Just instead of seeing 50people a week, I see five, right
, so I still get to keep myskill set up.
(21:59):
I'm still helping women getpregnant.
I'm still doing it.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I know some people that come to you for acupuncture
and they love it.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
They swear by it yeah so that's really nice to hear,
thank you.
And so I'm still doing it.
So I don't miss it from thatpoint of view.
And do I miss running a smallbusiness in Manhattan and all
the strum and drang and madnessof that?
I don't miss it from that pointof view, and do I miss running
a small business in Manhattanand all the strum and drang and
madness of that?
I don't, you know what I mean.
Like it's so nice to have soldit and to let all of that go and
to just be able to just see afew people a week.
(22:26):
It's fantastic.
So I'm essentially retired andit's really nice.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
All right, well thank you very much, of course.
Okay, that's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
(22:50):
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
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