July 8, 2025 • 40 mins
Kate Pierson - A Songwriter's Career
From “Love Shack” to solo tracks, Kate Pierson takes us on a wild, inspiring journey through her music career — from global fame with the B-52s to the creative freedom of her solo albums. She spills on working with Sia and other pop powerhouses, finding her authentic voice, and those “aha!” songwriting moments when lyrics seem to fall from the sky.
Tune in for a fun, fearless, and deeply personal look at what it really takes to build a music career that’s true to you.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@katepiersonofficial
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Kate's website: https://www.katepierson.com/
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Music credit: Kate Pierson & Monica Nation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
It's just so surprising how different ways
you can write a song.
Sometimes you start with alyric, a title is the way many
people write.
They get a title and go fromthere, but the inspiration
really I think every songwriterwill tell you it comes from
nowhere.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome back to how Much Can I Make.
I'm your host, merav Ozeri, andtoday we're diving into the
colorful, cosmic world of musicwith none other than Kate
Pearson, founding member of theB-52s and a true icon of rock
and pop.
You know her voice fromclassics like Love, Shack and
Rome.
But today Kate is here to talkabout something new her two solo
(01:03):
albums.
You just heard Pillow Queen.
It's my favorite song from heralbum, radios and Rainbows.
We're going to find out whatinspires her, how she brings her
wild creativity to every noteshe sings and what it takes to
launch a solo work after decadesin a legendary band.
So let's dive into the music,the magic and making of it all
(01:25):
with Kate Pearson.
Kate, thank you so much forwilling to do it and give us
time All right Marav Alwaysavailable to you.
Great.
I want to talk to you aboutyour solo albums.
You know there's some songsthere that I love.
Yes, and we just heard PillowQueen, which has become my
(01:47):
favorite song now.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Oh good, I love it.
I know you're a big PillowQueen fan.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I love this.
I love this song.
So first tell me what inspiredyou to come up with your solo
albums.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
It's something I always wanted to do.
When I was in high school I hada band called the Sun Donuts.
It was a folk protest band.
My father was a guitar player.
I always knew I was going to bea musician.
From the time I could think ohwow, I didn't know.
I used to sit when my parentswould go anywhere.
(02:20):
Very rarely would they goanywhere, but I would.
Whenever I was in the car whenI was a little kid, I would
stick my head out the windowlike a dog and I thought I was
writing the most fantastic songs.
I would sing to myself and Iwould turn the garbage can
upside down and play drums.
It drove my father crazy.
And I would play the tuningharmonica and I took piano
(02:41):
lessons and then I switched toguitar and so I always knew I
wanted to be a musician.
Long story short, the path wascircuitous to get there.
I always played music, but toget to be a professional
musician the path was winding,but I arrived.
I arrived as part of the B-52sand we wrote most of our songs
(03:02):
collectively by jamming, whichis very unusual.
I don't know of any other bandthat really writes so much
collectively, because usuallywith a band, someone maybe
there's one songwriter or theband will jam and then one
person is the singer and writesyou know all the lyrics and
stuff.
I mean it can work so manydifferent ways, but it's rarely
(03:23):
such a collective experience.
We just started the band byjust one night of having a
flaming volcano, and then westarted jamming and we came up
with a song, and then that's theway we did it from then on.
We just started jamming and itwas chaotic, but we'd tape it
and find these great parts andput them together, kind of like
(03:43):
a collage almost.
And a lot of our early B-52songs were just patchwork
together parts, but that's whatmade us unique and so very
unique and interesting.
Our song structures were notregular, our lyrics weren't
usual because they came out of astream of consciousness, kind
of collective stream ofunconsciousness or the
(04:04):
unconscious, the collectiveunconscious, whatever you want
to call it it came out ofnowhere, so I've always then it
was since the early B-52s Ithought I'm going to write a
solo record, but I really lostmyself in that collective kind
of thing where I felt like, oh,I can't really write anything on
my own, and I tried varioustimes.
(04:24):
I had oh, you got, can't reallywrite anything on my own and I
tried various times.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Oh, you just got insecure about writing on your
own.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I don't know what it was, it was just a strange
locked into the band.
Part of it, I think, was I wasafraid of alienating the rest of
the band or if I did somethingsolo.
But even just writing on my own, I didn't know how to approach
it anymore and I used to writesongs in high school and college
(04:50):
.
Somehow I just got and we did.
We were very busy, of course.
We started writing and togetherand we wrote a first album and
part of our second album.
We went on a big tour rightaway and we were just kind of
going, going, going.
So not like there was a lot ofdowntime, but I still still.
It was my dream to do a solorecord and years passed and
tours and many, many you knowB-52s albums and so many tours.
(05:14):
You know I just kept mysuitcase open, basically.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And as you were traveling with the B-52s, were
the songs cooking in your brainthat you thought the B-52s were
the songs cooking in your brainthat you thought, oh, this will
be my solo album or you gave itto the band.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Well, nobody really gave anything to the band.
Nobody ever came in and said,hey, I've got a song, except for
a few songs that Ricky wrote,very few songs that were sort of
written by just singular or twoof the band members.
Robert Waldrop wrote some lyricsfor some of our songs and so it
was an exception to the rule,but I wasn't getting ideas.
It just wasn't the sort ofcreative urge to do something
(05:54):
myself.
It was strong, but it wasn'tcoming to me.
The long story, not made short,is that there was a time when
the band had a lull and alsoFred had done a solo record.
He was the first one to do asolo record.
And it really caused this rift.
It was a time when we weren'tkind of doing anything because
(06:15):
we took breaks in betweensometimes and Fred decided to do
the solo record.
It was a little bit secretiveand it caused a rift and I got
caught in between, of course,just trying to like, make it all
like I do all good.
So part of that, I thinkbecause we had such a family
(06:36):
dynamic, that was part of thereason I couldn't write on my
own.
I felt like it was going to inmy own mind anyway.
It was like a betrayal.
So there came a time in thelate 90s, like 98 or something,
we weren't doing anything, wewere just sort of drifting a
little bit and in betweenrecords, and it was after Ricky
(06:57):
died in 1985.
In the late 90s there was just alull in the band and this band
called the Plastics were kind ofa counterpart to the B-52s.
They're a Japanese band, verycolorful, really interesting,
unique songs, and they had asense of humor and great visual
effect.
So they opened for us early onand we maintained a friendship
(07:19):
with them.
And around about 1998, one ofthe members of the plastics had
become this huge producer injapan and asked me to be part of
this project to come to japan.
I was like, yeah, why not?
So they also asked this woman,yuki, from judy and mary it was
another huge japanese band andshe was also in a lull.
(07:40):
We got together, I went tojapan, I wrote a song with Yuki
we didn't sing the same language, but somehow it just worked so
well collaborating with Yuki andSakuma-san and writing these
songs.
And then when I came back fromJapan, they sent me a bunch of
tracks and said why don't youwrite four songs?
(08:00):
And she'll write a few songsand we'll sing them together and
you write a couple of songstogether.
And I just had this four-tracktape recorder.
Uh, I mean, I had a littlerecording.
At that point I did have alittle recording system in my
house and I was starting to likemy creative juices were
starting to go and I wrote thosesongs and I flew to Japan.
I was still working on them andwe recorded them.
(08:22):
It wound up going to number onein Japan.
We toured all around alldifferent cities and we called
it the Noodle Tour, because Ilove Japanese noodles so much.
You sang some in Japanese.
I sang a little part inJapanese.
Yeah, that was really fun andYuki sang some songs you know
sang in English too.
It was very successful.
(08:42):
And after that I realized, hell,I can write with anyone.
If I can write with someone whodoesn't speak we don't speak
the same language and, as I said, we don't sing the same
language I can collaborate withanyone.
It really opened up my mind.
It was like it blew my mindthat this worked so well
Incredible.
So after that I startedembarking on some writing with
(09:03):
some different people.
I got some great songs and somesongs that just came to me and
I had different people Icollaborated with.
So I had a whole album's worthof songs and this was still like
late 90s.
And then I took it to ourmanager and said you know, I
really want to do a solo record.
And he said, oh, you can't putit out because Warner Brothers,
(09:23):
you're under contract to WarnerBrothers and you can't put that
out.
And I think Cindy at the sametime Cindy from the B-52s was
also wanting to do something.
He told her the same thing youknow we're waiting for the
president of Warner Brothers isgoing to change some BS thing.
You know, really, he justdidn't want me to do it because
he wanted the B-52s to tour.
He didn't want any distractionfrom that.
(09:44):
That's terrible, I know.
So he basically squelched thewhole thing.
So I felt really disheartenedby that and then we started
touring, touring, relentlesstouring.
Again was the story of my life.
We were always doing a lot oftouring and I kind of put that
on the back burner.
I had to.
And then when Monica and I, youknow, we were together for
quite a while and then at somepoint we met Sia, our friend Sia
(10:09):
, who's a very famous nowsinger-songwriter and she's
really known for her songwriting.
We became friends and Monicasaid, sia, can you help Kate
fulfill this dream?
She's always wanted to put outa solo record.
And she said, sure, sure.
So we went to LA.
We were also starting LazyDesert, so we camped out there.
We got a camper, we got anAirstream and I went on these
(10:31):
writing sessions, at first withSia.
Thank God for GPS, because Iwould go to all these different
places Studio City and Burbankand I put it I don't know where
I'm going, but I'm followingthis GPS and I would drive.
But at first I went with Siaand we would go to different
songwriters that she hadcollaborated with and they would
do the instrumentation.
Well, the first song was withSia and Sam Dixon and we wrote
(10:55):
Every Day is Halloween, everyday is what's become of me.
I'm a mascara to drop, my momhas Gara-tea drops.
Every day is Halloween and youask who am I?
And that's the very first songwe wrote together.
(11:16):
And he just had a guitar, abass.
I think he was just playing abass, he was just playing bass
lines and I had that title and Idid have a lot of the words.
And Sia is just an amazing wayof puzzling together words in a
different way too, and she tooka lot of the words I had and we
fit them.
Something I learned from her,especially writing solo, is to
(11:38):
really get a melody first.
You know, that's the mostimportant thing.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Really the melody.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
first, and even if you have lyrics, you might think
think, oh, I've got a verse isin the chorus and I've got it
all laid out here.
It's really hard to write asong like that some people do, I
guess but if you get goodmelodies you can fit your lyrics
into that.
You might have to change themaround a lot, but still it's
much more interesting to do thatbecause what people hear, I I
think, is first the melody.
(12:04):
They don't.
How many people know the lyricswithout the melody Right,
absolutely right they hear thechorus.
they know the chorus lyrics, butother than that sometimes
people don't really absorb thattill you know, they're really
into a song and listen intently.
So we wrote together Dallas,Austin and Sia and I wrote Throw
Down the Roses, which is one ofyour favorite songs, Rob.
(12:26):
That's right, we wrote thattogether.
I don't need to clap your hands, I don't need a microphone to
tell you, I'm better off beingon my own.
And you hit the last note andthat is all she wrote.
I don't stick around, I won'twait around for the ending.
(12:47):
Another curtain closes and Ialso worked with Nick Valenzi
from the Strokes on a songcalled Bottoms Up on my first
solo record.
So there were a lot ofdifferent collaborators.
Pretty soon Sia's careerstarted blowing up and she
(13:14):
couldn't go with me anymore andI just started going on my own.
I was like oh my God, I'm goingto meet this person.
I've never met and write withthem and it worked every time.
It worked like magic.
Take Me Back to the Partyactually was written back then
too with Jimmy Harry, who's avery famous songwriter.
He wrote a real big hit songwith Madonna Without you, I
can't face it on my own.
(13:38):
So take me back to the party,baby.
So a lot of these people weresongwriters that collaborated
with a lot of different people.
Sia's manager arranged a lot ofit and Sia had already worked
(14:00):
with most of these people, andthen he suggested a few people
that she hadn't ever worked withworked with most of these
people, and then he suggested afew people that she hadn't ever
worked with, and one of thepeople I worked with was Chris
Braid, who turned out to be oneof my main sort of sources of
collaboration and we really hitit off and he had a very
beautiful chord changes thatreally resonated with me.
So I felt like I could writereally great melodies and I
(14:21):
wound up writing four songs onRadios and Rainbows with Chris
Braid, because I gathered fourguitars and microphones the
first solo album and I gatheredtogether the songs, a couple of
songs that I wrote when I wastalking about that solo album
that my manager was squashing.
So I had written a song calledAlways Till Now and I wanted to
put that on the album.
So I re-recorded that.
(14:46):
I met him at the laundromat.
He flashed me a smile.
We sorted out our dirty laundryand talked for a while.
We put the money in and watchedour clothing spin.
I kissed him by the foldingcounter.
Then we both agreed we wouldalways be Always, always till
(15:14):
now.
And I wound up doing all thesongs with Tim Anderson, who I
wrote Pilla Queen with, and hehas a studio.
He was in a band called I'm aRobot and we worked in his
studio in LA and that was reallyfun.
I had a little sort of jobwhere I drove on Sunset all the
way to his studio every day andwe would write and record and it
(15:37):
was just so magical and so muchfun.
So it was all produced by TimAnderson, so it was more
homogenous.
I guess you know the sound ofand I really don't believe in
that so much anymore because theB-52s had several different
producers on Cosmic Thing twoproducers, that is, but not
Rogers and Don was.
So it really doesn't make thatmuch difference unless you have
(16:00):
someone that their production isvery heavy-handed or they have
a signature style of production,like Brian Eno or something,
when you write songs your voiceis an amazing instrument by
itself.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Thank you, but do you use any other instruments?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yes, I mean the magic of songwriting, I mean, aside
from the collaborations I didwith other people.
Most of the time again, theywould have the instrumentation
and I would just listen.
And a lot of times I didn't wantto listen to it over and over.
I would really want to recordwhat my first impressions were
on the very first time I wouldhear it and I would record that.
And a lot of times that's whena lot of magic happened, because
you don't expect what's comingin the melody and you would hit
(16:41):
on.
I would hit on some things thatwere just more unusual, type
melody, something I'd besurprised by what was happening.
So, and I would just jam tothat.
My ear would go to lock in withthe melody and the chord
changes in a different way thanif I just heard it over and over
and over again.
I might just get a melody juststuck in my head and I couldn't
get out of that.
This way my voice could go indifferent directions.
(17:03):
It's just so surprising howdifferent ways you can write a
song.
Sometimes you start with a lyric.
A title is the way many peoplewrite.
They get a title and go fromthere.
But the inspiration, really, Ithink every songwriter will tell
you it comes from nowhere.
You don't know that it's coming.
You know it comes from yourlife experience and from, yes,
(17:24):
all the things in your life, butit's not necessarily something
you expect.
It would be surprising, likewhen I wrote If you Give your
Heart to Science which was witha track that Chris Braid had
written and the melody was sobeautiful and I just I did think
of that title all of a sudden.
And then it became about mygood friend Jeremy Ayers, his
death, which is something Inever planned, I never thought
(17:48):
in a million years.
Yeah, I'm going to write abouthow he died, but he died in his
garden and he did donate hisbody to science, and so I wound
up it just unfolded when I wasjamming with this track that was
so beautiful.
It just the lyrics just cameout, and that's how it kind of
works with me, anyway, I thinkthis first impression of the
(18:36):
music I hear.
But now things have changed.
Now, all of a sudden, I'mgetting sort of back to where I
was, way back.
As a kid as a kid, wow.
And songs have just come to mewhile I'm walking Loki in the
morning, or just Loki is the dog.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yes, Loki is our German Shepherd.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Monica and I have this big, beautiful German
Shepherd and we walk him everymorning in the woods and a lot
of times, just I'm walking,walking and all of a sudden a
melody will come to me and Ihave a little recording app on
my phone and I record littlesnippets.
Or sometimes I'm in my studiojust playing the piano or guitar
and that's the way aninspiration will come to me.
(19:16):
A lot of times a lyric willcome to me at the same time.
It's fascinating how thathappens.
And my wife, Monica, suggestedI write a Christmas album.
Right, and I thought you knowI's.
I have one Christmas song Iwrote for the Levon Helm every
year, this beautiful concertthat we give that's a benefit
for the women's shelter and it'sa holiday themed.
(19:36):
And I wrote this Christmas songcalled Christmas in a rocket
ship.
And when Monica said write aChristmas album, I thought you
know, that's kind of.
How can you write a new songabout Christmas?
There are all so many songsabout Christmas, how can I write
something different?
Well then, once you put thatseed in my mind, I started
coming up with all these crazysongs about Christmas.
(19:58):
One's about elves and one'sabout a magic Christmas tree and
one's about what you do on asnowy day and they're not
children's songs, but they havea sort of naive quality to some
of the songs some of them, but Ihave seven songs so far.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Wow, and how many do you need for an album?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
10.
So I have seven, going on eight, and I find it a little bit
limiting to say I have theintention of writing a song
about something specific,because I feel like, oh man,
that then I might not be able towrite that, but I want to write
a song about holiday food.
You know everyone's differentholiday.
For Hanukkah, what do you havefor Hanukkah.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
That's a great idea.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And why the whole reason for having holidays is
for food.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
How do you know when a song is finished and it's done
?
Because with writing, any kindof writing, you can go back and
polish it again and again.
How do you know when it's done?
Because with writing, any kindof writing, you can go back and
polish again and again.
How do you know when it's done?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Well, when you have to record it, then it's done.
I just finished recording thissong, the Elves, a very fun
Christmas song for all ages.
But I still was tinkering withthe lyrics in the very, very
last minute and when I was inMarco Benevento's studio and Lee
Falco was playing drums and Isaid I can't get this one line.
(21:11):
It's just so awkward.
I want to rhyme with Blitzen,because it was a line about the
reindeer.
You know Donner dancer andRudolph Donner dancer Blitzen.
And anyway Lee Falco chimed inhey, what about this?
So that was that finish to thesong, because that lyric he just
suggested.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Now that I think, well, it's done now, right.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Because I recorded it .
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I mean, you can always go back, but you just
don't want to overthink it.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Why was it nine years between guitar and microphones
and the radio and rainbows?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
The reason there was such a gap and I wondered that
myself, because people haveasked me that so many times, and
I'm like, oh, I was busy.
But I looked at my calendarbefore you got here and I was
like started with 2015.
And I was just, you know, Ipressed on day, day, day, every
week and it was like going to LA, going to Vegas, going to
Houston, going to.
(22:03):
I went through every year untilI got to.
I think it was pandemiclockdown, was 2020, March 2020.
March 1st, right, yes, 2020.
I got to that date and up tothen I had been touring so much
and I started pulling songstogether in July of 2020.
(22:26):
And then, September 26th of2022, we did a farewell tour and
then we had our Vegas residency.
So in between that time duringthe pandemic, I was pulling the
songs together.
I didn't want to put it outduring the pandemic.
It just felt like not right,and so I wound up finally
getting it all together.
I had to re-record some things.
(22:48):
I worked at one day, a couple ofdays, in the studio with Tracy,
who's the bass player for theB-52s since Cosmic Thing, and
Sterling Campbell, who's alsobeen a drummer with the B-52s
since Cosmic Thing, and KenMurie, who's been with the band
quite a while.
So we re-recorded a couple ofsongs that were demos.
And then we had some time and Isaid let's just jam when I've
(23:09):
never written anything with them.
So I said let's just playaround and they started jamming
and I came up with this song,Dream On.
And that's another unexpectedthing.
They were just starting, youknow, playing bass and drums and
keyboard.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Oh and a song came out of it Came up with the song
Dream On I didn't have the titleeither.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You know I didn't have anything.
I didn't have the title either.
You know I didn't have anything.
I didn't go through my list andthink, oh, I'll try this.
You know this title.
It just came up Dream On and asong, an anti-war song.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Hearts and minds and oil mines.
Of course I know you have fans,thousands and thousands all
over the world.
When you write a song and youwant to come up with a song, do
you think about the fans andtheir expectations?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
No, you can try.
I think a lot of people try toimitate some other.
Something a recent hit and I'llmake it sound like that and
that could work.
But when the B-52s did, we hadour after ricky died and we
thought we were.
The band was at its end and westarted writing cosmic thing.
We actually made a vow thatthis was not going to be for
(24:20):
radio or a hit, it was just forus.
It was just healing and that wasthe most kind of healing
experience.
But it was also a successbecause it came right from our
hearts and that it has to comefrom your heart, I think, and it
has to come from this place ofpure creativity, without kind of
thinking of commercial valuenow, because you know, I really,
(24:50):
I really all I want is forpeople to hear my music.
Yes, I want that, but my goalsare different, you know, in
terms of not really I don't wantto go on a big world tour and I
don't want to.
I just wanted the music to beheard.
And it's so different now thelandscape of how you can get
your music out there.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So yeah, everything's different.
I want to ask you about that,but before we go to that, I want
to are there any songs in anyof the solo albums that you have
that is particularly personalto you?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yes, yes, which one Higher Place is very personal,
because I was in a relationshipbefore Monica that was
emotionally abusive Again, notplanned to write a song about
that, but I wound up writing asong about that.
That's about being abused, butbut finding this higher place
and also finding empowerment andother women, and that's not a
(25:35):
thing that I planned on either,so that just came out too, and
that was just a kind of amazedme.
But I wrote that to a track thatChris Braid had and the chord
change was so beautiful and itjust came to me Take it To A
Higher Place.
And it's very personal becauseit starts out with this lyric I
was abused, feeling so wronged,I didn't know I could be strong,
(25:55):
and that's the most personallyrics I've probably ever
written.
I was down, I was down down.
Take it to a higher place.
I wanna take you there.
Take me to a higher place.
I want to take you there.
Take me to a higher place.
Now I'm walking on air.
I'm skipping on stars.
(26:17):
Always Till Now is about arelationship I had too long ago
with the artist Tim Rollins, andthen the Beauty of it I really
wrote for Monica because I feltlike that's the song where
together we're sort of walkingon treetops, and so I feel like
a lot of the songs were that Iwrote for this album were the
(26:38):
most personal.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Money wise.
What does it take to make analbum today?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Not a whole lot People, a lot of people now,
which is that's surprising.
Not a whole lot People, a lotof people now, which is that's
surprising.
Complain as we may abouttechnology and the oh, the
record companies and the recordstores, and all this stuff is
gone.
And I don't miss searching for,having to search for a pay
phone, that's for sure, but thetechnology now allows anyone to
make a record in their bedroom.
(27:03):
Basically, I mean, think aboutBillie.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Eilish, Billie Eilish yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
You can have a simple , really simple setup.
Now, with the technology, youcould just do it all on a
computer basically, but I reallylike having real instruments.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
And what about releasing an album?
How do you release?
It seems like there's so muchout there.
How do you stick out?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
That's difficult.
I spoke to several people whoare in the industry and pretty
high up in record label land,and one of them told me we don't
sign anyone unless they have apresence on TikTok and have a
lot of followers for their music.
It's like an audition now.
I mean record labels used tohave what they call A&R people
(27:44):
who would go and be.
They'd have an ear for music.
They'd have an ear for music,people like Seymour Stein, who
would be, or Chris Blackwell,who would know how to sign
someone.
They'd hear somebody that wasunknown completely.
And now, basically, you have todo it yourself.
You have to get your ownaudience.
You have to put your music,write music, get it out there
(28:04):
and if you can get an audienceand following on TikTok, then
you can get the interest of alabel, which and a lot of people
don't even bother with a recordlabel because you can put it
out yourself too.
Right, did you put out yourselfyour solos?
No, I'm on.
It's called Songvest Records.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
And so it's a little label, but it's been very
helpful to have that.
I just felt like it was nice tohave.
I mean, they did the vinyl,they did the CDs, they have
distribution.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, it's a different story, right.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah.
So it's nice to have a smallindie label, but you can put a
lot of stuff out yourself.
Some people think, oh, it's sosad that you have to get on
TikTok, but it really is justlike a giant audition and right
right you know you used to goand play and you'd play in clubs
and then you'd start getting anaudience and if people liked
your music and you startedgetting crowds, then the record
labels would be like hmm, Ithink when the B-52 started
(28:58):
record labels thought what thehell they sound so weird, but
they've got a huge following.
Kids are loving it, so we'llsign them.
But it is really hard to getthrough the noise.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I mean, it's incredibly hard and it's mostly
young people on TikTok and youcan do some stupid things on
there and get a millionfollowers to just kind of try
clothes on.
Maybe I'll try that.
No, but how can you monetize arelease today?
I mean, there's only streaming.
I pay monthly to Apple Musicand I don't pay you for your
(29:32):
song.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Well, this is the sad part, right, you really can't.
I mean, you really.
The only way you can monetizeit is if you have a monster hit
and you have millions andmillions of streams, because a
million streams won't get youmuch.
People mostly make their moneytouring, and that's why you see
people touring all the time, andmerch is a big thing too,
(29:54):
selling merch now, I mean, a lotof artists rely on touring and
merch.
That's the only way to makemoney.
Wow, unless you, you know, areBeyonce or you know you have a
huge monster hit.
Also, advertising sync, theycall it, you know.
So you have some kind of songin a movie or a TV show.
It's still a great source ofgetting your music out there and
(30:16):
getting you know income.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
TV and commercials, and film is the big money right.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
It's good money.
It depends on who you are, howmuch they're going to pay for
your song or how big a hit ifit's a huge hit, but it's not
that much.
They picked Rome for thisMarriott Bonvoy ad and they
re-recorded.
So that's another thing.
If they re-record it, you getless.
But also, unless they use theoriginal, and if they use the
original, Warner Brothers ownsthe Masters.
(30:44):
so they get half of it.
Half, yes, oh ouch, a lot oflike.
Taylor Swift just re-recordedall her songs.
Yes, and that's the reasonbecause now she owns the masters
.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Pillow Queen should be sold to some sort of not my
pillow guy, but anything else Ifmy pillow guy offered me a
million dollars, I'd say no,fuck off pillow guy.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
But yes, I mean it's hard.
I think it's hard because youcan't really control it.
It's really hard you can'tpitch.
Because they're creatives too.
Amy Sherman Palladino didGilmore Girls and during the
pandemic, monica and I had neverseen it and we decided to watch
just like a million seasons.
And they wore B-52's t-shirts,sometimes in some scenes Go-Go's
(31:26):
t-shirts.
They played a ton of our music.
They played some of it in theMarvelous Mrs Maisel Like she
really likes those 80s bands andso that was just because of her
.
You know her taste and what sheliked.
Wow, so you need to get lucky.
So, yeah, you just really needto get lucky.
And if you have a hit song,then it's likely to be used.
(31:46):
Like Rome has been used a lotand especially and they
re-recorded this version of Romeit's unrecognizable, it's very
soft.
So that's kind of really nice,because it doesn't necessarily
associate that song withMarriott.
Every time you go to Marriottyou think, oh, rome, the best
thing with Rome that I saw wason NASA TV.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
They had footage of.
Mars and the rover was goingand they were playing Rome.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I love that I literally got goosebumps when I
saw it, I saw that and I justthat was the best use.
That was amazing, mars syncRight.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
So what surprised you the most about your solo
journey?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
How much fun it was, how liberating and not really
stressful, although there's some, you know, just trying to get
it all together and finish itand everything's a little
stressful, but basically it wasjust fun.
Like I felt liberated, I feltlike wow to create, to be able
to create songs outside of theB-52s.
(32:50):
It just felt so good and it wasso much fun to work with other
people and collaborate andespecially the songs I've been
writing just on my own from myown head.
The whole thing.
That's been kind of a newdevelopment.
So I'm just really reveling in.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
You played the solo music and the audience was
singing along and I waswondering how do they know the
lyrics already?
I'm glad and you played the newalbum.
Does it excite you when you seethat?
Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Oh, yeah, if they know a song, especially, yeah,
my solo recordings and people do.
The songs have gotten out thereand they're played on radio and
people dismiss.
That's another thing.
Record companies do not haveradio departments anymore and I
was like to my label hey, let'syou know, I want to get on this
station and that station, like,oh, we don't even, we don't care
(33:45):
about radio anymore at allbecause it's all about TikTok
and getting you know socialmedia.
I still think radio is superimportant.
I hear a lot of music and a lotof new music from radio and
listening to my independent WAMC, womr, the Outer Cape Radio,
fmu and just all these WDST,radio Woodstock and Radio
(34:07):
Kingston, they play really greatmusic, they have really great
music programming and it'seclectic.
It's just a good source for meof hearing new music.
So I can't even fathom my mind,cannot wrap around that radio
is not a good thing to do.
What would you say?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
is the biggest challenge of releasing your own
and being on your own withoutthe backing of the band.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
The biggest challenge is, I think, getting live shows
, because someone just told me Ihave a friend who's just in a.
There are two of them, twomusicians, and they said they
were trying to get club datesand the club wouldn't book them
unless they could guarantee theycould sell X amount of tickets.
How can they guarantee it, Idon't know.
But basically for my solo showsI had to really drum up my own.
(34:55):
I mean, I had a publicist.
She's great, you know, shewould suggest things, I would
suggest things or try to dointerviews.
I'd have to hustle to kind ofmake sure people knew about the
show.
It's not so much they wouldn'tcome, they don't know about it
because there's so much going on.
There's Bands in Town.
That's an app that you can putin your favorite artist and
you'll get an alert if they'replaying nearby and stuff.
(35:17):
But there's so many venues,even here in Woodstock, I can't
keep track of all the differentthings that are happening.
So to get your music out there,to get people to know that
you're playing and then get theaudience in, and also the cost
of paying musicians Unlessyou're a band and it's all for
one and one for all, and if yougo do a gig and you don't make
any money, then you know you allshare in the no money.
(35:39):
But I have to pay the band, youknow, and I want to pay them.
I have to pay the hotel roomand the travel and the rehearsal
and as a solo artist, yeah well, you would get all the money
whatever comes in, but it's hardto even break even, I think,
for a solo artist now toespecially an indie artist
(35:59):
starting I don't know how.
How do they make it?
Just, I guess, in a way likethe b52s did in the beginning,
on a shoestring, you know, oryou really have to pump your
social media, you really have toinvest your time in that and
get out there, maybe and playlive.
But that's like I said, that'sexpensive.
I know people who are folkartists and they play folk
(36:21):
festivals and they play littlesmaller venues and they make a
living.
There are all sorts of ways tomake a living, even if it
doesn't get you rich, but justto actually make a living as a
musician, even if you're awedding band.
Or I just played at a friend'swedding and there was a wedding
band.
I sang when they were comingdown the aisle but I sang with
this smaller band that playedwhile people were being seated.
(36:43):
And then there was a receptionwedding band and this was in
Mexico.
But you know, people can make aliving playing weddings,
playing bar mitzvahs andwhatever.
So I mean, it's rough, though.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
It's hard.
You've been at the top of allof it with B-52, but what
success looks to you now?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I think success for my solo record is just the
satisfaction of getting it done,writing the songs, getting them
out there.
Success would be to have morepeople hear my music.
Success would be to get a songon a popular TV show or ads.
It's a little dicey because youknow what product is clean and
(37:24):
clear anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
You don't know, you don't want to sell soap,
necessarily, but at least soapis clean.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
But yeah, I think success is having people here
and, like you said, peoplesinging along.
Being able to play live andhave people come and sing along
that was a joyful experiencewhen I could play live.
I felt exhilarated after thatshow at City Winery.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Oh, it was an amazing show.
Yeah, it just felt great andhave friends come Standing room
only and people were crazy.
They didn't want it to stop, Iknow.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
And it's just fun getting that reaction from the
audience.
And of course I did play acouple of B-52 songs and I
played Candy.
But I know that people reallyappreciated my music and the
solo music.
So that's really.
I think that's success.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
You know, when I see people singing and coming to a
show, we were talking a lotabout your writing process and
all of that.
What about AI?
Do you see songs being writtenby AI?
Do you think you could use AIto write songs?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
I fooled around with just for fun, because friends of
mine were writing songs for acoffee house that friends of
theirs opened and they had towrite a whole bunch of playlist
of songs.
So they use this AI and theysaid it really worked out for
like jingly songs about coffee.
But I've tried it for lyricsand it will get better, but for
(38:46):
now it's clunky, you know.
But you can get ideas.
You know what rhymes with suchand such or what I mean you can
say to an AI write a song aboutsuch and such and it will come
up with verses, many verses andstuff, but it's like it doesn't
sound natural.
I'm already so sick of ai.
It's just like the, the photothing that just came out, where
(39:06):
there are apps that areaccessible to anyone, where you
could take a photo of.
I'm sitting here and now I'mdiving into.
You know I'm changing into afirebird, right, and I'm already
sick of that.
Everything could be manipulated.
You think AI can fake yourvoice?
Yes, it might sound roboticright now a little bit.
(39:29):
I can always tell whensomething's an AI voice.
I can always tell Marav whenit's AI, but soon I'm worried
because it's so unregulatedcrazy world we live in.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah, all right, thank you so much.
I wanted to do it for a longtime because, for myself, I
wanted to know the story behinda lot of things, and I'm glad I
got the chance.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Thank you thank you very much.
Your podcast has really beenamazing, thank you.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Okay.
That's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
It's just so surprising how different ways
you can write a song.
Sometimes you start with alyric, a title is the way many
people write.
They get a title and go fromthere, but the inspiration
really I think every songwriterwill tell you it comes from
nowhere.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Welcome back to how Much Can I Make.
I'm your host, merav Ozeri, andtoday we're diving into the
colorful, cosmic world of musicwith none other than Kate
Pearson, founding member of theB-52s and a true icon of rock
and pop.
You know her voice fromclassics like Love, Shack and
Rome.
But today Kate is here to talkabout something new her two solo
(01:03):
albums.
You just heard Pillow Queen.
It's my favorite song from heralbum, radios and Rainbows.
We're going to find out whatinspires her, how she brings her
wild creativity to every noteshe sings and what it takes to
launch a solo work after decadesin a legendary band.
So let's dive into the music,the magic and making of it all
(01:25):
with Kate Pearson.
Kate, thank you so much forwilling to do it and give us
time All right Marav Alwaysavailable to you.
Great.
I want to talk to you aboutyour solo albums.
You know there's some songsthere that I love.
Yes, and we just heard PillowQueen, which has become my
(01:47):
favorite song now.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Oh good, I love it.
I know you're a big PillowQueen fan.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I love this.
I love this song.
So first tell me what inspiredyou to come up with your solo
albums.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
It's something I always wanted to do.
When I was in high school I hada band called the Sun Donuts.
It was a folk protest band.
My father was a guitar player.
I always knew I was going to bea musician.
From the time I could think ohwow, I didn't know.
I used to sit when my parentswould go anywhere.
(02:20):
Very rarely would they goanywhere, but I would.
Whenever I was in the car whenI was a little kid, I would
stick my head out the windowlike a dog and I thought I was
writing the most fantastic songs.
I would sing to myself and Iwould turn the garbage can
upside down and play drums.
It drove my father crazy.
And I would play the tuningharmonica and I took piano
(02:41):
lessons and then I switched toguitar and so I always knew I
wanted to be a musician.
Long story short, the path wascircuitous to get there.
I always played music, but toget to be a professional
musician the path was winding,but I arrived.
I arrived as part of the B-52sand we wrote most of our songs
(03:02):
collectively by jamming, whichis very unusual.
I don't know of any other bandthat really writes so much
collectively, because usuallywith a band, someone maybe
there's one songwriter or theband will jam and then one
person is the singer and writesyou know all the lyrics and
stuff.
I mean it can work so manydifferent ways, but it's rarely
(03:23):
such a collective experience.
We just started the band byjust one night of having a
flaming volcano, and then westarted jamming and we came up
with a song, and then that's theway we did it from then on.
We just started jamming and itwas chaotic, but we'd tape it
and find these great parts andput them together, kind of like
(03:43):
a collage almost.
And a lot of our early B-52songs were just patchwork
together parts, but that's whatmade us unique and so very
unique and interesting.
Our song structures were notregular, our lyrics weren't
usual because they came out of astream of consciousness, kind
of collective stream ofunconsciousness or the
(04:04):
unconscious, the collectiveunconscious, whatever you want
to call it it came out ofnowhere, so I've always then it
was since the early B-52s Ithought I'm going to write a
solo record, but I really lostmyself in that collective kind
of thing where I felt like, oh,I can't really write anything on
my own, and I tried varioustimes.
(04:24):
I had oh, you got, can't reallywrite anything on my own and I
tried various times.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Oh, you just got insecure about writing on your
own.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I don't know what it was, it was just a strange
locked into the band.
Part of it, I think, was I wasafraid of alienating the rest of
the band or if I did somethingsolo.
But even just writing on my own, I didn't know how to approach
it anymore and I used to writesongs in high school and college
(04:50):
.
Somehow I just got and we did.
We were very busy, of course.
We started writing and togetherand we wrote a first album and
part of our second album.
We went on a big tour rightaway and we were just kind of
going, going, going.
So not like there was a lot ofdowntime, but I still still.
It was my dream to do a solorecord and years passed and
tours and many, many you knowB-52s albums and so many tours.
(05:14):
You know I just kept mysuitcase open, basically.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And as you were traveling with the B-52s, were
the songs cooking in your brainthat you thought the B-52s were
the songs cooking in your brainthat you thought, oh, this will
be my solo album or you gave itto the band.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Well, nobody really gave anything to the band.
Nobody ever came in and said,hey, I've got a song, except for
a few songs that Ricky wrote,very few songs that were sort of
written by just singular or twoof the band members.
Robert Waldrop wrote some lyricsfor some of our songs and so it
was an exception to the rule,but I wasn't getting ideas.
It just wasn't the sort ofcreative urge to do something
(05:54):
myself.
It was strong, but it wasn'tcoming to me.
The long story, not made short,is that there was a time when
the band had a lull and alsoFred had done a solo record.
He was the first one to do asolo record.
And it really caused this rift.
It was a time when we weren'tkind of doing anything because
(06:15):
we took breaks in betweensometimes and Fred decided to do
the solo record.
It was a little bit secretiveand it caused a rift and I got
caught in between, of course,just trying to like, make it all
like I do all good.
So part of that, I thinkbecause we had such a family
(06:36):
dynamic, that was part of thereason I couldn't write on my
own.
I felt like it was going to inmy own mind anyway.
It was like a betrayal.
So there came a time in thelate 90s, like 98 or something,
we weren't doing anything, wewere just sort of drifting a
little bit and in betweenrecords, and it was after Ricky
(06:57):
died in 1985.
In the late 90s there was just alull in the band and this band
called the Plastics were kind ofa counterpart to the B-52s.
They're a Japanese band, verycolorful, really interesting,
unique songs, and they had asense of humor and great visual
effect.
So they opened for us early onand we maintained a friendship
(07:19):
with them.
And around about 1998, one ofthe members of the plastics had
become this huge producer injapan and asked me to be part of
this project to come to japan.
I was like, yeah, why not?
So they also asked this woman,yuki, from judy and mary it was
another huge japanese band andshe was also in a lull.
(07:40):
We got together, I went tojapan, I wrote a song with Yuki
we didn't sing the same language, but somehow it just worked so
well collaborating with Yuki andSakuma-san and writing these
songs.
And then when I came back fromJapan, they sent me a bunch of
tracks and said why don't youwrite four songs?
(08:00):
And she'll write a few songsand we'll sing them together and
you write a couple of songstogether.
And I just had this four-tracktape recorder.
Uh, I mean, I had a littlerecording.
At that point I did have alittle recording system in my
house and I was starting to likemy creative juices were
starting to go and I wrote thosesongs and I flew to Japan.
I was still working on them andwe recorded them.
(08:22):
It wound up going to number onein Japan.
We toured all around alldifferent cities and we called
it the Noodle Tour, because Ilove Japanese noodles so much.
You sang some in Japanese.
I sang a little part inJapanese.
Yeah, that was really fun andYuki sang some songs you know
sang in English too.
It was very successful.
(08:42):
And after that I realized, hell,I can write with anyone.
If I can write with someone whodoesn't speak we don't speak
the same language and, as I said, we don't sing the same
language I can collaborate withanyone.
It really opened up my mind.
It was like it blew my mindthat this worked so well
Incredible.
So after that I startedembarking on some writing with
(09:03):
some different people.
I got some great songs and somesongs that just came to me and
I had different people Icollaborated with.
So I had a whole album's worthof songs and this was still like
late 90s.
And then I took it to ourmanager and said you know, I
really want to do a solo record.
And he said, oh, you can't putit out because Warner Brothers,
(09:23):
you're under contract to WarnerBrothers and you can't put that
out.
And I think Cindy at the sametime Cindy from the B-52s was
also wanting to do something.
He told her the same thing youknow we're waiting for the
president of Warner Brothers isgoing to change some BS thing.
You know, really, he justdidn't want me to do it because
he wanted the B-52s to tour.
He didn't want any distractionfrom that.
(09:44):
That's terrible, I know.
So he basically squelched thewhole thing.
So I felt really disheartenedby that and then we started
touring, touring, relentlesstouring.
Again was the story of my life.
We were always doing a lot oftouring and I kind of put that
on the back burner.
I had to.
And then when Monica and I, youknow, we were together for
quite a while and then at somepoint we met Sia, our friend Sia
(10:09):
, who's a very famous nowsinger-songwriter and she's
really known for her songwriting.
We became friends and Monicasaid, sia, can you help Kate
fulfill this dream?
She's always wanted to put outa solo record.
And she said, sure, sure.
So we went to LA.
We were also starting LazyDesert, so we camped out there.
We got a camper, we got anAirstream and I went on these
(10:31):
writing sessions, at first withSia.
Thank God for GPS, because Iwould go to all these different
places Studio City and Burbankand I put it I don't know where
I'm going, but I'm followingthis GPS and I would drive.
But at first I went with Siaand we would go to different
songwriters that she hadcollaborated with and they would
do the instrumentation.
Well, the first song was withSia and Sam Dixon and we wrote
(10:55):
Every Day is Halloween, everyday is what's become of me.
I'm a mascara to drop, my momhas Gara-tea drops.
Every day is Halloween and youask who am I?
And that's the very first songwe wrote together.
(11:16):
And he just had a guitar, abass.
I think he was just playing abass, he was just playing bass
lines and I had that title and Idid have a lot of the words.
And Sia is just an amazing wayof puzzling together words in a
different way too, and she tooka lot of the words I had and we
fit them.
Something I learned from her,especially writing solo, is to
(11:38):
really get a melody first.
You know, that's the mostimportant thing.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Really the melody.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
first, and even if you have lyrics, you might think
think, oh, I've got a verse isin the chorus and I've got it
all laid out here.
It's really hard to write asong like that some people do, I
guess but if you get goodmelodies you can fit your lyrics
into that.
You might have to change themaround a lot, but still it's
much more interesting to do thatbecause what people hear, I I
think, is first the melody.
(12:04):
They don't.
How many people know the lyricswithout the melody Right,
absolutely right they hear thechorus.
they know the chorus lyrics, butother than that sometimes
people don't really absorb thattill you know, they're really
into a song and listen intently.
So we wrote together Dallas,Austin and Sia and I wrote Throw
Down the Roses, which is one ofyour favorite songs, Rob.
(12:26):
That's right, we wrote thattogether.
I don't need to clap your hands, I don't need a microphone to
tell you, I'm better off beingon my own.
And you hit the last note andthat is all she wrote.
I don't stick around, I won'twait around for the ending.
(12:47):
Another curtain closes and Ialso worked with Nick Valenzi
from the Strokes on a songcalled Bottoms Up on my first
solo record.
So there were a lot ofdifferent collaborators.
Pretty soon Sia's careerstarted blowing up and she
(13:14):
couldn't go with me anymore andI just started going on my own.
I was like oh my God, I'm goingto meet this person.
I've never met and write withthem and it worked every time.
It worked like magic.
Take Me Back to the Partyactually was written back then
too with Jimmy Harry, who's avery famous songwriter.
He wrote a real big hit songwith Madonna Without you, I
can't face it on my own.
(13:38):
So take me back to the party,baby.
So a lot of these people weresongwriters that collaborated
with a lot of different people.
Sia's manager arranged a lot ofit and Sia had already worked
(14:00):
with most of these people, andthen he suggested a few people
that she hadn't ever worked withworked with most of these
people, and then he suggested afew people that she hadn't ever
worked with, and one of thepeople I worked with was Chris
Braid, who turned out to be oneof my main sort of sources of
collaboration and we really hitit off and he had a very
beautiful chord changes thatreally resonated with me.
So I felt like I could writereally great melodies and I
(14:21):
wound up writing four songs onRadios and Rainbows with Chris
Braid, because I gathered fourguitars and microphones the
first solo album and I gatheredtogether the songs, a couple of
songs that I wrote when I wastalking about that solo album
that my manager was squashing.
So I had written a song calledAlways Till Now and I wanted to
put that on the album.
So I re-recorded that.
(14:46):
I met him at the laundromat.
He flashed me a smile.
We sorted out our dirty laundryand talked for a while.
We put the money in and watchedour clothing spin.
I kissed him by the foldingcounter.
Then we both agreed we wouldalways be Always, always till
(15:14):
now.
And I wound up doing all thesongs with Tim Anderson, who I
wrote Pilla Queen with, and hehas a studio.
He was in a band called I'm aRobot and we worked in his
studio in LA and that was reallyfun.
I had a little sort of jobwhere I drove on Sunset all the
way to his studio every day andwe would write and record and it
(15:37):
was just so magical and so muchfun.
So it was all produced by TimAnderson, so it was more
homogenous.
I guess you know the sound ofand I really don't believe in
that so much anymore because theB-52s had several different
producers on Cosmic Thing twoproducers, that is, but not
Rogers and Don was.
So it really doesn't make thatmuch difference unless you have
(16:00):
someone that their production isvery heavy-handed or they have
a signature style of production,like Brian Eno or something,
when you write songs your voiceis an amazing instrument by
itself.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Thank you, but do you use any other instruments?
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yes, I mean the magic of songwriting, I mean, aside
from the collaborations I didwith other people.
Most of the time again, theywould have the instrumentation
and I would just listen.
And a lot of times I didn't wantto listen to it over and over.
I would really want to recordwhat my first impressions were
on the very first time I wouldhear it and I would record that.
And a lot of times that's whena lot of magic happened, because
you don't expect what's comingin the melody and you would hit
(16:41):
on.
I would hit on some things thatwere just more unusual, type
melody, something I'd besurprised by what was happening.
So, and I would just jam tothat.
My ear would go to lock in withthe melody and the chord
changes in a different way thanif I just heard it over and over
and over again.
I might just get a melody juststuck in my head and I couldn't
get out of that.
This way my voice could go indifferent directions.
(17:03):
It's just so surprising howdifferent ways you can write a
song.
Sometimes you start with a lyric.
A title is the way many peoplewrite.
They get a title and go fromthere.
But the inspiration, really, Ithink every songwriter will tell
you it comes from nowhere.
You don't know that it's coming.
You know it comes from yourlife experience and from, yes,
(17:24):
all the things in your life, butit's not necessarily something
you expect.
It would be surprising, likewhen I wrote If you Give your
Heart to Science which was witha track that Chris Braid had
written and the melody was sobeautiful and I just I did think
of that title all of a sudden.
And then it became about mygood friend Jeremy Ayers, his
death, which is something Inever planned, I never thought
(17:48):
in a million years.
Yeah, I'm going to write abouthow he died, but he died in his
garden and he did donate hisbody to science, and so I wound
up it just unfolded when I wasjamming with this track that was
so beautiful.
It just the lyrics just cameout, and that's how it kind of
works with me, anyway, I thinkthis first impression of the
(18:36):
music I hear.
But now things have changed.
Now, all of a sudden, I'mgetting sort of back to where I
was, way back.
As a kid as a kid, wow.
And songs have just come to mewhile I'm walking Loki in the
morning, or just Loki is the dog.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yes, Loki is our German Shepherd.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Monica and I have this big, beautiful German
Shepherd and we walk him everymorning in the woods and a lot
of times, just I'm walking,walking and all of a sudden a
melody will come to me and Ihave a little recording app on
my phone and I record littlesnippets.
Or sometimes I'm in my studiojust playing the piano or guitar
and that's the way aninspiration will come to me.
(19:16):
A lot of times a lyric willcome to me at the same time.
It's fascinating how thathappens.
And my wife, Monica, suggestedI write a Christmas album.
Right, and I thought you knowI's.
I have one Christmas song Iwrote for the Levon Helm every
year, this beautiful concertthat we give that's a benefit
for the women's shelter and it'sa holiday themed.
(19:36):
And I wrote this Christmas songcalled Christmas in a rocket
ship.
And when Monica said write aChristmas album, I thought you
know, that's kind of.
How can you write a new songabout Christmas?
There are all so many songsabout Christmas, how can I write
something different?
Well then, once you put thatseed in my mind, I started
coming up with all these crazysongs about Christmas.
(19:58):
One's about elves and one'sabout a magic Christmas tree and
one's about what you do on asnowy day and they're not
children's songs, but they havea sort of naive quality to some
of the songs some of them, but Ihave seven songs so far.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Wow, and how many do you need for an album?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
10.
So I have seven, going on eight, and I find it a little bit
limiting to say I have theintention of writing a song
about something specific,because I feel like, oh man,
that then I might not be able towrite that, but I want to write
a song about holiday food.
You know everyone's differentholiday.
For Hanukkah, what do you havefor Hanukkah.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
That's a great idea.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And why the whole reason for having holidays is
for food.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
How do you know when a song is finished and it's done
?
Because with writing, any kindof writing, you can go back and
polish it again and again.
How do you know when it's done?
Because with writing, any kindof writing, you can go back and
polish again and again.
How do you know when it's done?
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Well, when you have to record it, then it's done.
I just finished recording thissong, the Elves, a very fun
Christmas song for all ages.
But I still was tinkering withthe lyrics in the very, very
last minute and when I was inMarco Benevento's studio and Lee
Falco was playing drums and Isaid I can't get this one line.
(21:11):
It's just so awkward.
I want to rhyme with Blitzen,because it was a line about the
reindeer.
You know Donner dancer andRudolph Donner dancer Blitzen.
And anyway Lee Falco chimed inhey, what about this?
So that was that finish to thesong, because that lyric he just
suggested.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Now that I think, well, it's done now, right.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Because I recorded it .
Speaker 1 (21:35):
I mean, you can always go back, but you just
don't want to overthink it.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Why was it nine years between guitar and microphones
and the radio and rainbows?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
The reason there was such a gap and I wondered that
myself, because people haveasked me that so many times, and
I'm like, oh, I was busy.
But I looked at my calendarbefore you got here and I was
like started with 2015.
And I was just, you know, Ipressed on day, day, day, every
week and it was like going to LA, going to Vegas, going to
Houston, going to.
(22:03):
I went through every year untilI got to.
I think it was pandemiclockdown, was 2020, March 2020.
March 1st, right, yes, 2020.
I got to that date and up tothen I had been touring so much
and I started pulling songstogether in July of 2020.
(22:26):
And then, September 26th of2022, we did a farewell tour and
then we had our Vegas residency.
So in between that time duringthe pandemic, I was pulling the
songs together.
I didn't want to put it outduring the pandemic.
It just felt like not right,and so I wound up finally
getting it all together.
I had to re-record some things.
(22:48):
I worked at one day, a couple ofdays, in the studio with Tracy,
who's the bass player for theB-52s since Cosmic Thing, and
Sterling Campbell, who's alsobeen a drummer with the B-52s
since Cosmic Thing, and KenMurie, who's been with the band
quite a while.
So we re-recorded a couple ofsongs that were demos.
And then we had some time and Isaid let's just jam when I've
(23:09):
never written anything with them.
So I said let's just playaround and they started jamming
and I came up with this song,Dream On.
And that's another unexpectedthing.
They were just starting, youknow, playing bass and drums and
keyboard.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Oh and a song came out of it Came up with the song
Dream On I didn't have the titleeither.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You know I didn't have anything.
I didn't have the title either.
You know I didn't have anything.
I didn't go through my list andthink, oh, I'll try this.
You know this title.
It just came up Dream On and asong, an anti-war song.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Hearts and minds and oil mines.
Of course I know you have fans,thousands and thousands all
over the world.
When you write a song and youwant to come up with a song, do
you think about the fans andtheir expectations?
Speaker 1 (23:59):
No, you can try.
I think a lot of people try toimitate some other.
Something a recent hit and I'llmake it sound like that and
that could work.
But when the B-52s did, we hadour after ricky died and we
thought we were.
The band was at its end and westarted writing cosmic thing.
We actually made a vow thatthis was not going to be for
(24:20):
radio or a hit, it was just forus.
It was just healing and that wasthe most kind of healing
experience.
But it was also a successbecause it came right from our
hearts and that it has to comefrom your heart, I think, and it
has to come from this place ofpure creativity, without kind of
thinking of commercial valuenow, because you know, I really,
(24:50):
I really all I want is forpeople to hear my music.
Yes, I want that, but my goalsare different, you know, in
terms of not really I don't wantto go on a big world tour and I
don't want to.
I just wanted the music to beheard.
And it's so different now thelandscape of how you can get
your music out there.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So yeah, everything's different.
I want to ask you about that,but before we go to that, I want
to are there any songs in anyof the solo albums that you have
that is particularly personalto you?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Yes, yes, which one Higher Place is very personal,
because I was in a relationshipbefore Monica that was
emotionally abusive Again, notplanned to write a song about
that, but I wound up writing asong about that.
That's about being abused, butbut finding this higher place
and also finding empowerment andother women, and that's not a
(25:35):
thing that I planned on either,so that just came out too, and
that was just a kind of amazedme.
But I wrote that to a track thatChris Braid had and the chord
change was so beautiful and itjust came to me Take it To A
Higher Place.
And it's very personal becauseit starts out with this lyric I
was abused, feeling so wronged,I didn't know I could be strong,
(25:55):
and that's the most personallyrics I've probably ever
written.
I was down, I was down down.
Take it to a higher place.
I wanna take you there.
Take me to a higher place.
I want to take you there.
Take me to a higher place.
Now I'm walking on air.
I'm skipping on stars.
(26:17):
Always Till Now is about arelationship I had too long ago
with the artist Tim Rollins, andthen the Beauty of it I really
wrote for Monica because I feltlike that's the song where
together we're sort of walkingon treetops, and so I feel like
a lot of the songs were that Iwrote for this album were the
(26:38):
most personal.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Money wise.
What does it take to make analbum today?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Not a whole lot People, a lot of people now,
which is that's surprising.
Not a whole lot People, a lotof people now, which is that's
surprising.
Complain as we may abouttechnology and the oh, the
record companies and the recordstores, and all this stuff is
gone.
And I don't miss searching for,having to search for a pay
phone, that's for sure, but thetechnology now allows anyone to
make a record in their bedroom.
(27:03):
Basically, I mean, think aboutBillie.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Eilish, Billie Eilish yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
You can have a simple , really simple setup.
Now, with the technology, youcould just do it all on a
computer basically, but I reallylike having real instruments.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
And what about releasing an album?
How do you release?
It seems like there's so muchout there.
How do you stick out?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
That's difficult.
I spoke to several people whoare in the industry and pretty
high up in record label land,and one of them told me we don't
sign anyone unless they have apresence on TikTok and have a
lot of followers for their music.
It's like an audition now.
I mean record labels used tohave what they call A&R people
(27:44):
who would go and be.
They'd have an ear for music.
They'd have an ear for music,people like Seymour Stein, who
would be, or Chris Blackwell,who would know how to sign
someone.
They'd hear somebody that wasunknown completely.
And now, basically, you have todo it yourself.
You have to get your ownaudience.
You have to put your music,write music, get it out there
(28:04):
and if you can get an audienceand following on TikTok, then
you can get the interest of alabel, which and a lot of people
don't even bother with a recordlabel because you can put it
out yourself too.
Right, did you put out yourselfyour solos?
No, I'm on.
It's called Songvest Records.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
And so it's a little label, but it's been very
helpful to have that.
I just felt like it was nice tohave.
I mean, they did the vinyl,they did the CDs, they have
distribution.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, it's a different story, right.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah.
So it's nice to have a smallindie label, but you can put a
lot of stuff out yourself.
Some people think, oh, it's sosad that you have to get on
TikTok, but it really is justlike a giant audition and right
right you know you used to goand play and you'd play in clubs
and then you'd start getting anaudience and if people liked
your music and you startedgetting crowds, then the record
labels would be like hmm, Ithink when the B-52 started
(28:58):
record labels thought what thehell they sound so weird, but
they've got a huge following.
Kids are loving it, so we'llsign them.
But it is really hard to getthrough the noise.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I mean, it's incredibly hard and it's mostly
young people on TikTok and youcan do some stupid things on
there and get a millionfollowers to just kind of try
clothes on.
Maybe I'll try that.
No, but how can you monetize arelease today?
I mean, there's only streaming.
I pay monthly to Apple Musicand I don't pay you for your
(29:32):
song.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Well, this is the sad part, right, you really can't.
I mean, you really.
The only way you can monetizeit is if you have a monster hit
and you have millions andmillions of streams, because a
million streams won't get youmuch.
People mostly make their moneytouring, and that's why you see
people touring all the time, andmerch is a big thing too,
(29:54):
selling merch now, I mean, a lotof artists rely on touring and
merch.
That's the only way to makemoney.
Wow, unless you, you know, areBeyonce or you know you have a
huge monster hit.
Also, advertising sync, theycall it, you know.
So you have some kind of songin a movie or a TV show.
It's still a great source ofgetting your music out there and
(30:16):
getting you know income.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
TV and commercials, and film is the big money right.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
It's good money.
It depends on who you are, howmuch they're going to pay for
your song or how big a hit ifit's a huge hit, but it's not
that much.
They picked Rome for thisMarriott Bonvoy ad and they
re-recorded.
So that's another thing.
If they re-record it, you getless.
But also, unless they use theoriginal, and if they use the
original, Warner Brothers ownsthe Masters.
(30:44):
so they get half of it.
Half, yes, oh ouch, a lot oflike.
Taylor Swift just re-recordedall her songs.
Yes, and that's the reasonbecause now she owns the masters
.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Pillow Queen should be sold to some sort of not my
pillow guy, but anything else Ifmy pillow guy offered me a
million dollars, I'd say no,fuck off pillow guy.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
But yes, I mean it's hard.
I think it's hard because youcan't really control it.
It's really hard you can'tpitch.
Because they're creatives too.
Amy Sherman Palladino didGilmore Girls and during the
pandemic, monica and I had neverseen it and we decided to watch
just like a million seasons.
And they wore B-52's t-shirts,sometimes in some scenes Go-Go's
(31:26):
t-shirts.
They played a ton of our music.
They played some of it in theMarvelous Mrs Maisel Like she
really likes those 80s bands andso that was just because of her
.
You know her taste and what sheliked.
Wow, so you need to get lucky.
So, yeah, you just really needto get lucky.
And if you have a hit song,then it's likely to be used.
(31:46):
Like Rome has been used a lotand especially and they
re-recorded this version of Romeit's unrecognizable, it's very
soft.
So that's kind of really nice,because it doesn't necessarily
associate that song withMarriott.
Every time you go to Marriottyou think, oh, rome, the best
thing with Rome that I saw wason NASA TV.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
They had footage of.
Mars and the rover was goingand they were playing Rome.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I love that I literally got goosebumps when I
saw it, I saw that and I justthat was the best use.
That was amazing, mars syncRight.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
So what surprised you the most about your solo
journey?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
How much fun it was, how liberating and not really
stressful, although there's some, you know, just trying to get
it all together and finish itand everything's a little
stressful, but basically it wasjust fun.
Like I felt liberated, I feltlike wow to create, to be able
to create songs outside of theB-52s.
(32:50):
It just felt so good and it wasso much fun to work with other
people and collaborate andespecially the songs I've been
writing just on my own from myown head.
The whole thing.
That's been kind of a newdevelopment.
So I'm just really reveling in.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
You played the solo music and the audience was
singing along and I waswondering how do they know the
lyrics already?
I'm glad and you played the newalbum.
Does it excite you when you seethat?
Yes?
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Oh, yeah, if they know a song, especially, yeah,
my solo recordings and people do.
The songs have gotten out thereand they're played on radio and
people dismiss.
That's another thing.
Record companies do not haveradio departments anymore and I
was like to my label hey, let'syou know, I want to get on this
station and that station, like,oh, we don't even, we don't care
(33:45):
about radio anymore at allbecause it's all about TikTok
and getting you know socialmedia.
I still think radio is superimportant.
I hear a lot of music and a lotof new music from radio and
listening to my independent WAMC, womr, the Outer Cape Radio,
fmu and just all these WDST,radio Woodstock and Radio
(34:07):
Kingston, they play really greatmusic, they have really great
music programming and it'seclectic.
It's just a good source for meof hearing new music.
So I can't even fathom my mind,cannot wrap around that radio
is not a good thing to do.
What would you say?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
is the biggest challenge of releasing your own
and being on your own withoutthe backing of the band.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
The biggest challenge is, I think, getting live shows
, because someone just told me Ihave a friend who's just in a.
There are two of them, twomusicians, and they said they
were trying to get club datesand the club wouldn't book them
unless they could guarantee theycould sell X amount of tickets.
How can they guarantee it, Idon't know.
But basically for my solo showsI had to really drum up my own.
(34:55):
I mean, I had a publicist.
She's great, you know, shewould suggest things, I would
suggest things or try to dointerviews.
I'd have to hustle to kind ofmake sure people knew about the
show.
It's not so much they wouldn'tcome, they don't know about it
because there's so much going on.
There's Bands in Town.
That's an app that you can putin your favorite artist and
you'll get an alert if they'replaying nearby and stuff.
(35:17):
But there's so many venues,even here in Woodstock, I can't
keep track of all the differentthings that are happening.
So to get your music out there,to get people to know that
you're playing and then get theaudience in, and also the cost
of paying musicians Unlessyou're a band and it's all for
one and one for all, and if yougo do a gig and you don't make
any money, then you know you allshare in the no money.
(35:39):
But I have to pay the band, youknow, and I want to pay them.
I have to pay the hotel roomand the travel and the rehearsal
and as a solo artist, yeah well, you would get all the money
whatever comes in, but it's hardto even break even, I think,
for a solo artist now toespecially an indie artist
(35:59):
starting I don't know how.
How do they make it?
Just, I guess, in a way likethe b52s did in the beginning,
on a shoestring, you know, oryou really have to pump your
social media, you really have toinvest your time in that and
get out there, maybe and playlive.
But that's like I said, that'sexpensive.
I know people who are folkartists and they play folk
(36:21):
festivals and they play littlesmaller venues and they make a
living.
There are all sorts of ways tomake a living, even if it
doesn't get you rich, but justto actually make a living as a
musician, even if you're awedding band.
Or I just played at a friend'swedding and there was a wedding
band.
I sang when they were comingdown the aisle but I sang with
this smaller band that playedwhile people were being seated.
(36:43):
And then there was a receptionwedding band and this was in
Mexico.
But you know, people can make aliving playing weddings,
playing bar mitzvahs andwhatever.
So I mean, it's rough, though.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
It's hard.
You've been at the top of allof it with B-52, but what
success looks to you now?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I think success for my solo record is just the
satisfaction of getting it done,writing the songs, getting them
out there.
Success would be to have morepeople hear my music.
Success would be to get a songon a popular TV show or ads.
It's a little dicey because youknow what product is clean and
(37:24):
clear anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
You don't know, you don't want to sell soap,
necessarily, but at least soapis clean.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
But yeah, I think success is having people here
and, like you said, peoplesinging along.
Being able to play live andhave people come and sing along
that was a joyful experiencewhen I could play live.
I felt exhilarated after thatshow at City Winery.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Oh, it was an amazing show.
Yeah, it just felt great andhave friends come Standing room
only and people were crazy.
They didn't want it to stop, Iknow.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
And it's just fun getting that reaction from the
audience.
And of course I did play acouple of B-52 songs and I
played Candy.
But I know that people reallyappreciated my music and the
solo music.
So that's really.
I think that's success.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
You know, when I see people singing and coming to a
show, we were talking a lotabout your writing process and
all of that.
What about AI?
Do you see songs being writtenby AI?
Do you think you could use AIto write songs?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
I fooled around with just for fun, because friends of
mine were writing songs for acoffee house that friends of
theirs opened and they had towrite a whole bunch of playlist
of songs.
So they use this AI and theysaid it really worked out for
like jingly songs about coffee.
But I've tried it for lyricsand it will get better, but for
(38:46):
now it's clunky, you know.
But you can get ideas.
You know what rhymes with suchand such or what I mean you can
say to an AI write a song aboutsuch and such and it will come
up with verses, many verses andstuff, but it's like it doesn't
sound natural.
I'm already so sick of ai.
It's just like the, the photothing that just came out, where
(39:06):
there are apps that areaccessible to anyone, where you
could take a photo of.
I'm sitting here and now I'mdiving into.
You know I'm changing into afirebird, right, and I'm already
sick of that.
Everything could be manipulated.
You think AI can fake yourvoice?
Yes, it might sound roboticright now a little bit.
(39:29):
I can always tell whensomething's an AI voice.
I can always tell Marav whenit's AI, but soon I'm worried
because it's so unregulatedcrazy world we live in.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah, all right, thank you so much.
I wanted to do it for a longtime because, for myself, I
wanted to know the story behinda lot of things, and I'm glad I
got the chance.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Thank you thank you very much.
Your podcast has really beenamazing, thank you.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Okay.
That's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.